N FACE TO FACE INTERVIEW ( 21/11/2016 )
INTERVIEWER:
Tell me about something that made you happy this week.
N:
Erm, something that made me happy this week. When I was eating my noodles in the little den clove of our storage room because we have to get over like 150 cases of calendars in and sometimes there’s not enough room, and it makes this massive weird cave den and I was just like at the end of it and people were looking at me like WOAH and they saw me and someone was like “N, someone is here for you” and I was like “What??” and I went outside and it was my mum and she was like buying something and she gave me a hug and I haven’t seen her in a week and cause I went to London and I’ve been feeling a little down recently and so that was really nice.
INTERVIEWER:
Aw, that’s nice. Do you have a kettle in your…in the shop that you can use to make noodles with?
N:
No, I, we do but I went to Wasabi.
INTERVIEWER:
Ahhh, oh it’s real close init.
N:
Yeah and we get 10% off.
INTERVIEWER:
Mmmm staff discount. Do you have any objects or possessions that mean a lot to you? Could you tell me a little bit about them?
N:
Ooo objects and possessions, yes I do. One of my favourite objects that I own is a book that is a limited run of Yinka Shonibare‘s Yorkshire Sculpture Park limited edition books that have been made with like the fabric that he used; they’ve been bound with that. And they’re really nice, and he signed them as well and because he’s got multiple sclerosis his body is slowly breaking down it means he’s not been able to write as much so these are gonna be some of the last books that he officially signs. And that was before I went to foundation at Leeds College of Art. My mum was like “We’re going on a trip”, cause she was very excited for me doing the course, and we went to the Yorkshire Sculpture Park and she knew that he was my favourite artist and he was doing a massive exhibition there and I didn’t even know at all.
INTERVIEWER:
Oh my god, that must have been so good.
N:
And she got me that book as well and so that’s a very important possession to me.
INTERVIEWER:
What sort of work does he do?
N:
He does a lot of…it’s to do with colonialism in Africa and stuff, so like he takes these traditional African fabrics that you see and he makes like massive Georgian dresses out of them and does these crazy scenes. It’s amazing. I’ll have to show you sometime.
INTERVIEWER:
Sounds good! What’s something you’re really enjoying at the moment?
N:
I’m really enjoying at the moment...I am actually enjoying COP! I do really like COP but I have really been enjoying lino printing at the moment, very much! Cause there’s something about, cause I have this weird routine of like going down to Vernon Street, putting on my headphones, listening to the podcast “My Favourite Murder” and then just cutting lino. And then just going to lunch, coming back, printing lino whilst cleaning up; done! And it’s just a very nice routine when I do it. Cause it’s just me and I’ll talk to people but I can just get to zone in on my work and myself and it’s very nice.
INTERVIEWER:
Lovely! Okay, as a non-binary woman, is there anything that’s troubling you at the moment?
N:
I think there’s been…What I’ve personally experienced and what I know other people think is happening is the explosion again of LAD culture as a way of going against the more liberal opening that’s been happening with universities, and people are getting less…are taking less of the crap that a lot of men and bigots did before. And because of Britex and stuff, it’s made them feel like the underdog of us, and like in America they feel like they’re the underdog but they’ve still got so much power. And they think that by being so blasé about rape or being so sexist to us women they are…it’s their freedom and their right and they feel like they’re the underdogs and that they’re now winning but it’s just fucking gross.
INTERVIEWER:
Yeah it is. Disgusting. Erm, okay so do you think there’s anything that could be done to help combat this?
N:
A lot of the time I think, I mean we’ve started to educate people more by talking more about this. And you have extremists on both sides and I think letting...one of the big things is don’t let either of them get the spotlight that I think is currently on them both. It’s like, explaining to people what feminism is, and I think a lot of the time feminism isn’t explained or you have people who, I’m not naming names, but who prefer to call themselves “equalitists” and that’s just a fucking dumb idea. But I also think a big thing that needs to be done is people need to be more accepting of the fact that “Yeah, people may want to be called non-binary or queer-gendered or a more accepting thing and it’s like “oh this is all fuss” but you don’t need to like it. Like it’s for those people. I think that when people think change happens it’s a bad thing
and try and resist it but I think it needs to be more of an accepting thing. INTERVIEWER:
Do you think that educating people, maybe through the educational system, would make much of a difference?
N:
I definitely think it would. I think also on television and media, you need one to back up the other. Because I think a lot of the shit you’ll see with kids is that they’ll lose interest or they’ll kind of listen in school but if you back that up with media more trans-inclusive, nonbinary inclusive, more feminist based T.V. shows and video games and stuff…It doesn’t even have to be shoved in your face it’s just like “oh it’s the woman that’s the lead” and that’s it; that’s what we’re wanting. And the more that’s brought into mainstream media and that’s put into rotation the more rounded it’ll be. And I think at the moment it’s this kind of clawing at the empire but not in a colonial sense more in a white male dominative sense. It’s almost like “No we’re losing this power” but it’s like no what’s happening is women are gaining the same power, or non-binaries and stuff like that.
INTERVIEWER:
Do you think that it’s more…do you think people are changing so it’s becoming more inclusive now?
N:
I think it’s very difficult…If you’re very passive about it you’ll become ill informed…You have to put yourself in it; you have to do the research. I had to research how I identify and work out safe groups and safe spaces and that’s because I was proactive in that. Not a lot of people want to be because it’s the old way of “Oh I’m too old now to learn this”. And it’s that sort of thing were you and I, we’re researching this so we understand it and we have a clearer view but most people just have a passive view of feminism. Or a passive view of gender. They only see what’s represented which is a lot of the time rather misinformed, and they’ll just take those little “informaties”. So I don’t really know. I wouldn’t really say it is…And also people don’t really seem to understand that there needs to be spaces safe for people, that others can’t really get involved with…I think we’re slowly becoming more aware but I don’t think we’re anywhere near as aware as we need to be.
INTERVIEWER:
Good answer. As an individual do you think there is anything woman and feminine-identifying people could do to support each other more?
N:
I think to support each other more there’s got to be set things like if you’re a white-trans person you need to understand that your mortality rate isn’t as high as a trans-person of colour. I think part of the problem is this idea that “We’re all women so we’re all ‘X’-thing but if you’re a Muslim woman, if you’re a POC woman, if you’re a Jewish woman, if you’re a disabled woman, your experience is something entirely different from a straight cis-white woman. And I think that needs to be more accepted. And I think a lot of it is all talk, like if you don’t like the way certain other women are, people are like “Oh I don’t like the Hijab because it’s repression” but if a Muslim woman wants to wear that, that’s none of your business. It’s about putting your money
where your mouth is and it’s about understanding that when you decide to take this supportive role as a feminist, sometimes women aren’t going to have the same opinions or cultural needs that you have and that does not mean they are oppressed or less in anyway. ‘m not meaning alt-right groups were it’s like fucking racist I mean it’s just like “She follows Islam, we should support her in her Islamic roles and sisters. Do not try to tell them how they should behave as Islamic women, but if they ask for support in ‘X’ you help them with that. You do not start to shove your agenda on them…You know with a lot of Muslim women the Hijab isn’t the issue it’s that they’re not allowed to drive or own land, or they can’t get divorced as easily when they’re got an abusive husband and they can’t have rights to education. That’s what they’re fussed about, they’re not fussed about their Hijab; if they want to they will. INTERVIEWER:
I think a lot of it is just about understand that your experience and where you sit in it…Like the whole reason I’m doing this project is because I wanted to tackle ableism but I understood that I can’t create a book on what other women’s issues are because at the end of the day I’m a straight white female. I can’t then be like “this is what women of colour’s issues are” because I can’t say those things. I can’t say what other women are struggling with or what other people’s realities are so I think we just have to…you have to listen, don’t you?
N:
And I think that’s what makes you a good ally Jazz, and a supportive friend and a good friend because you understand that you don’t know the experiences of these women of other cultures and other backgrounds. You also understand that to be cohesive and to be able to support them you have to listen and that’s very important.
INTERVIWER:
Yeah and its understanding, as you said, every woman has a different story. When people ask “What’s feminism” and people say “Women don’t get paid the same as men” that’s so ridiculous because yes women get paid X-amount less than men, but then Black women get paid less than that, and Latino women get paid less than that and it breaks down into more than just “Women as a whole”.
N:
There are so many things that people don’t branch off with. E.G. if you’re feminist you can be racist like feminist women of ‘back in the day’ were often members of the K.K.K. and they were the foundation of feminism. And so, it’s just not everything is a one fits all. A lot of feminism at the moment is about getting rid of this idea of toxic masculinity and it being the be all and end all, and this idea that women can’t rape men and that’s all a part of masculinity and this idea that a man cannot be forced into that situation and that if he’s erect he must like it. No! That’s so traumatic! That needs to be supported and represented. All people matter.
INTERVIEWER:
Could you describe or tell me about a woman in your life that makes you feel proud about being yourself?
N:
Aw this is gonna get sad cause I’m gonna bring up my mother again. I’ve brought up my mother three times now but back in the day my
grandfather gave her and her two sisters choices of professions; secretary, nurse and teacher. My mum became a nurse, but at 17 she just went off to Greece. And this is when the Cold War was still going on and the Iron Gate was still up and she just wanted to go to Greece…She’s been a single mum in a time in which being a single mum was kind of looking down on; a single mum to a mixed race child. And my mum’s suffered a lot of abuse because of that. A lot of people said “your daughter’s adopted” and blah blah blah. Then my mum had to support two children single handily while being the head nurse of a hospital in the paediatrician ward. And she’s a fantastic woman. She’s tried to be here, there and everywhere, and one of the things I’ve found out is she’s said “I should have been there for you more physically than materially because that’s what you needed” and maybe it was at some points but she was just trying to be the best she could be. And my mum’s had to deal with so many awful things happening to her; infidelity, my dad was a very abusive man, he punched my mum in the face once time and tried to kidnap me but she punched him right back and got me. She’s had to deal with being put into horrible debt because of my dad, she was cut off from the family for a while due to internal things, her husband having a massive stroke two months before moving to America. She’s had to deal with a lot of stuff…and she still keeps going. And she’s still a kind and loving person and will go out of her way for people and I think that’s the reason I admire her. And that’s what makes me feel like I can be myself because…I endure because she endures. A lot of the time I’ve been through some really messed up shit and yeah I’ve had moment’s when I’ve said “this is too much” but I’ve always endured because my mum has endured. And that is something that she’s passed onto me. Maybe not in the healthiest of ways (laughs) when it comes to some things but I think it really does help shape you up as a person. And that idea of holding out a hand even if you’ve got a knife in your back is something that I think she’s passed on to me but then she’s like “NO THAT WAS A TERRRIBLE IDEA YOU SHOULDN’T HAVE DONE THAT” and I’m like “WHAT!? WHY!?” (laughs) And she’s like “yeah we really need to work on that”. But being a good person. And moving past awful thing and knowing things are always going to go on. The sun’s gonna come up again. Even if you don’t want to get out of bed. There’s another day. You don’t have to worry. So, yeah. INTERVIEWER:
That’s lovely. Erm. Could you tell me about a time you felt empowered?
N:
Empowered…I think it’s very difficult to say. Because I feel like there’s an idea of what empowerment should be, or how I should feel empowered. There’s a way the media describes it and a way people describe it but my empowerment I wouldn’t say comes from things like that. I was empowered when I got given the Student Rep Shortlist Award. Because it made me feel genuinely valued. And that empowered me because the work I do is recognised; that I’m trying to talk to people I’m trying to help people and help the course and help the course run better and for that to be recognised…that empowered me because it told me that I was doing good and I was good enough.
Similarly when I did the stuff for Thought Bubble and people enjoyed my work that empowered me because I have value to my work. It reinforces something that is probably in the back of my mind, but most of me refuses to admit, which is like I am worth something. And I am valued and I think that Student Rep Award really did help with that. INTERVIEWER:
And lastly, what’s your favourite thing about being a non-binary woman?
N:
Erm… titties.
BOTH:
(Laugh)
N:
But no, let me think of something. I think there’s something, especially when you’re non-binary or you’re a queer woman, when you find your community of people it is SO supportive. And when you find women who are so supportive and empowering and they help empower you and each other that’s the greatest thing. I think there’s a sense of community and there’s a sense of openness that I think a lot of people that aren’t, don’t allow themselves to have or assume that they have to be a certain way to get that. There’s no way you have to be when you’re in the queerest, most non-binaryest, gayest whatever because they’re so accepting. And they’re so accepting that you can be anything and I think that’s such a big thing the sense of community and acceptance. Because there’s certain things like if you’re a LAD, there’s a certain code you’re expected to follow and if you deviate from that you will be verbally abused for it, and sometimes, even physically. But when you’re in this, there is no expectations. I think the main thing is just trying to keep everyone educated and informed.
INTERVIEWER:
Nice! All done! Oh wait- is there anything else you would like to add or speak about?
N:
Firstly, I’m very proud of you Jazz.
INTERVIEWER:
Thank you!
N:
I really like the way your work is going and the fact you’re talking to all these people. Just because you’re a cis-white woman doesn’t mean that your opinion on stuff isn’t as valued. I’d very much like to see some of your thoughts on these things. I think especially when you’re a Northern lass there’s a weird sense of ‘men’s clubs’ and ‘men’s culture’ maybe in places like Hull where it’s a coastal city with working class clubs and stuff. And there was an expectation of what the women would have to put up with and I think you should maybe look at this all yourself.
INTERVIEWER:
Hmm, maybe I will
N:
Because there’s always this idea that “men will never grow up” and you’re basically their mother again and you’ve got to kind of work around that. And sometimes in working class there’s this idea that you don’t expect your husband to communicate with you at all (laughs) and then just fuck off and occasionally come home (laughs) and you’re just expected to deal with that cause that’s how it is. And I think
that is a big part of how you see and respect your partner. So yeah, I would love to see you…cause you’re working class aren’t you? INTERVIEWER:
Yeah. Oh yeah (laughs).
N:
Yeah well that’s it you’ve got a different perspective as a coastal Northern working class woman than I would have. Cause I’ve been raised by my mum in quite a feminist-eque household and you’ll have something entirely different. And the way you’ll have seen your parents together. And seeing how your parents interact and stuff and how you may have seen your grandparents interact and stuff and people in your town interact and stuff. It’s so different to what I’ve experienced so it’s still an interesting perspective to go from.
INTERVIEWER:
Well , thank you! We’ll call it done!