Open Mic A conversation with Dan Dorell
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Chad Boston Stephanie Johnson Qian Kang Justin Krzemien Clare Lassegard Elijah Less Olivia Mason Grayson Muia Nicola Pici Keaton Reinhart Ryan Snyder Molly Sullivan Ruihang Zhu
Made by students enrolled in the “Video, Media, and Architecture� class taught by professor Marco Brizzi at Kent State University in Florence in Spring 2017.
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Contents 4 Biography 6 Interview
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Biography
Dan Dorell is one of the three founding partners of DORELL.GHOTMEH. TANE. Dan Dorell, Lina Ghotmeh and Tsuyoshi Tane opened their office in 2006 after winning the international competition for the Estonian National Museum, a 355-meter-long sloping glass building that rises from the runway of a former Soviet airbase near the city of Tartu that recently opened to the public. They practice Architecture, Urbanism and Space Design, collaborating with a multicultural team of 14 architects and professionals of interdisciplinary fields. The team believes that the richness of Architecture comes from the fact that it is contingent upon other disciplines. For many of their projects, they seek to collaborate with professionals from different backgrounds: innovative engineers, artists, designers, scientists or sociologists. As such, DGT is working with photographer Fouad ElKhoury, designer Johnny Farah, conductor Seiji Ozawa, choreographer Jo Kanamori, fashion designers Yasuhiro Mihara and Akira Minagawa. The practice’s creative process involves an archaeology of the physical, historical and social traces layered in the project’s place and time. This archaeological process, conducted in the form of in-depth research on the context, on the client’s vision and on the users of the projects, represents an important design tool and becomes an ‘integral’ part of the project that generates the ‘global specificity’ of it. The partnership gained an international reputation through its design of the Estonian National Museum and through a series of cutting edge yet phenomenally sensitive projects. DGT is today one of the leading practices of the new generation of architects. It was awarded the NAJAP award by the French Ministry of Culture in 2008 and was nominated for the Ian Chernikhov prize in 2010.
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OPEN MIC
AN INTERVIEW WITH DAN DORELL
INTERVIEW WITH
Dan Dorell FLORENCE 2017
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Student: So, all of us being American architecture students and studying here in Europe, what do you think would be the most important aspect of European architecture for us to grasp? Dan Dorell: Absorb as much as you can of this. It’s all information that will make you think in a different way. Travel as much as you can, be curious, see everything. Go outside of Italy too. Switzerland. There is a lot of very interesting architecture, contemporary architecture all over Europe. There is one very interesting architecture in Estonia that I will be presenting later. Probably the best piece in Europe. Considering your firms portfolio of projects and concepts, built and unbuilt, which project do you believe represents your architectural ideas the best and what about that specific project do you think represents it so well? Most of my buildings are unbuilt. Unfortunately. (Laughter) Special situations are quite rare and building, especially public buildings or very important buildings with a strong identity aspect to it are often on public competition. In Europe, most of public buildings are publicly paid. So there is a European law that says when it is public money, you need to do a competition, so it’s quite difficult to build. So, the building that I have built, it is the Estonian National Museum, which represents. It is very simple and the logic behind it and the way of thinking architecture, is the same in that building or in most other projects even very small projects even urban projects, is the same way of building up a reality. So, I would say, yeah, that my favorite is the Estonian National Museum, because it had been, in a way, a very radical project and luckily enough because the client and the Estonian people wanted this building to be exceptional. They followed the ideas and it was realized as it was conceived, with a lot of problems of course. It took ten years but, it finally is done.
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How many were in the completion for the Estonian competition? Well there was 140 groups that actually submitted. There were more than 200 that started. But, there were only 140 submissions and it was open competition. One thing to know about open competitions, big names don’t participate because it’s almost impossible to win. It’s kind of a lottery. So big names-they participate in competitions mainly when they are invited and are paid to do it. But this was an open competition, so the chances to win it are very small because there are so many proposals and a lot of them very good. Actually, this was interesting in that when I got to the idea of how it is, the museum today, I thought it was evident that everyone would do the same thing, but luckily, nobody made the same, so it was luck. Given the various backgrounds of yourself and your partners has there been any instances where you couldn’t agree on a design solution? As you have seen, the three of us are as different as you can get. All from different continents, different cultures. The fact that an idea is shared by different visions is like passing a sort of evolution process. Everything that you are thinking is shared, and have to be approved or agreed on. So it is very very complicated. It is very much about diversity and different visions on the same thing. But when it works, it is very good. So from start to finish of your design process for the competition, it obviously took a long time, so what would happen, from your career stand point, if you didn’t win, where does that time go? Is there something else? It’s difficult to say what would have happened. At the moment that we won, I was still working in Jean Nouvel’s office, a French
AN INTERVIEW WITH DAN DORELL
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DGT Architects Dan Dorell, Lina Ghotmeh and Tsuyoshi Tane
Architect. And actually in London, in Norman Foster’s office, because this was a project between Jean Nouvel and Norman Foster. One [partner] was working with me at Jean Nouvel’s, and the other was working with David Adjaye. So we were actually building after work, after eight o’clock in the evening. And it was just fun. In the moment, we were not imaging that it was even thinkable to win. We didn’t try to win. We just wanted to do something that would make us do the best architecture. Then we got the phone call to come to the opening ceremony. So we left our jobs and went to the ceremony. All the media was there, so we understood it was very important. The president of the Republic gave us the prize. There it is, the project of the century, very, very important. But, we were actually a bit worried, because we are all very young. I’m the oldest in the group, I was 30. In Europe, normally, you become an “Architect” around 50. It’s very rare that you get the chance to do anything in the early stage of your life. So, I don’t know what would have happened if I didn’t win. I guess we would have tried other buildings and other competitions.
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DGT, Estonian National Museum
What was the most challenging aspect of your design for the Estonian national museum and how did you overcome it? In most complex buildings, you don’t have just one client in front of you. You have many many people in front of you. And they all think radically different about what you should do. As an architect, you want to do something that can bring them all together. This is very difficult. First, you have to really listen to everybody. There could be 50 different people that have something to say. So you have to try to understand them all, then try to give a solution. So, with an increase in the role of technology in architecture, how does that affect hand modeling and drawing in your office?
AN INTERVIEW WITH DAN DORELL
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DGT, Estonian National Museum
I think you really need both. It is very important to work with models, we work very much with hand models. We have a laser cutter, but after everything it is built up by hand. You have discussed how architecture is not about the architect, but about the product of the people who are asking for the building. How involved have your clients been in your design process? If you asked a politician would consider this it’s their own building, and they think that the building is like (the way it is) and it was their ideas, (laughs), and actually this is the best compliment you can get. Because people have been involved very much in all the process,, they will feel like it’s their own. So… in a way the idea was our own on this proposal but everybody felt somehow arrived to put themselves in this and
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AN INTERVIEW WITH DAN DORELL
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DGT, Estonian National Museum
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through that each person, you know, added something. So, the final product it is really their product of all the people that have been involved, so yeah it is and yeah, the President (Estonia) said our project was won because it felt not as a monument for the architect but a monument for the Estonian people. Many of your previous works and concepts seem to have a focus on the environment and ecofriendly design. Sustainability is a major concern in architecture today. What are your thoughts on how much eco-friendly design should influence the design and the design process? How much we should be involved in the sustainability issues? I think very much. Sustainability is not just giving it to our mechanical engineer, then to project how to make the conservation for the air condition or the system is working that way, when putting some mud pies on the roof, of course it always already a good thing that to have the engineers to be thinking about it, and you know this is degree zero for sustainability. It’s when the architecture itself without and mechanical component, is already sustainable. So, by the way the Museum, more than 50% of the
building it’s a completely passive building, which is for the conditions, for example if archives of this special type, take a lot of energy, the fact to have them passive. Zero energy. This means in terms of energy, in the next 100 years, to make the building, somehow correct, and the best thing that you can do in architecture, it’s not only to not impact the world. In some cases you can arrive even to improve the situation. It’s the best you can make it. The building is really improving the situation. And it will eventually we will make all, or at least try and go this direction. If you arrive to push to improve the sustainability of the building, this will make a difference. In a way it involves aesthetics, will evolve according to the sustainable side of it. Which are materials, or if the building is considered for reducing energy or these things will change the form of architecture. What do you think is the most important quality as an architect? I would say you need many qualities… (laughs). You have to cover everything, so it is not enough to be good at one thing, you are going to need to cover many, many
AN INTERVIEW WITH DAN DORELL
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“...it is really important to be able to work as a team of people, and you’ll have to adapt sometimes, flexible enough to keep evolving.” things and this way it can work sometimes help on this because you have different components to put together. But if a quality is has to be chosen then it is really important to be able to work as a team of people, and you’ll have to adapt sometimes, flexible enough to keep evolving. So, flexibility and being open-minded, and hardworking. Was it challenging designing the Estonian National Museum on a site with such a tragic history? What we have done, we designed not stay in the past, in this very difficult past. We used elements very difficult for the Estonian people, for the elements to give the positive meaning, so it was something to
not (rush). You know it like if you go to a place where it’s been occupied for centuries and war, and to tell them don’t think about it. It was very difficult, and many, many people were against this project because, in the beginning actually big, big problems. But in a way, that happened is that, even if many people didn’t want, even if this was difficult to them, at one point they elections of the country, they actually said, that if the country is ready to do something, to do such a gesture, where it was a tragic, it means that they are already over it. So it’s actually very to, start from that point giving it new meaning. A new way of thinking. And you know this building it’s attached to this airfield, and it was very tragic, actually the building itself symbolizes, as if it’s taking off, as if almost the country is taking off.
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Going from the old situation to a new future. And the fact that the building itself, technological… new Estonia, economically booming, is becoming a new symbol of Estonia. So this way it’s successful. For the design of the Estonian National Museum you and your firm looked to the deep history of the area for inspiration. How do you and your firm find inspiration for projects with surrounding sites that may not have as much history? Hopefully you use consideration where they are. (laughs) But sometimes, I don’t know if you know, but I don’t do only architecture, but I do installations. And installations don’t have a difficult past. (laughs) But what you do have, is an identity of the person that asked you to make this experiential architecture in a way, but you have to experience it separate, it’s like an art installation, where it’s talking about what the brand is doing, or somehow space flow, you know showing the product. And in this situation you know your buildings become the marketing text of the brand, what they want to be, and what they are what is there past, what is the product they want to be shown, and all this and more, becomes your context,
but in the end it’s all about identity. If it’s the identity of country, museum, or company, it’s the product, it’s the way of materializing an identity in space. So yeah, in this sense you always have a very good starting point, even if it was on a blank sheet, a starting point is a fact. What is a fact, what is it, what does it want, yeah, where is it, why is it, (laughs), why it’s doing what it’s doing, and the moment where it is and this is architecture in that you know what you’re experiencing here in Florence, for example, all these buildings represent a specific moment, cultural moment in a specific time, it happened and this is like a proof of history. Let’s say that it’s for commercial architecture. Commercial architecture it’s just a service, this type of architecture is less interesting, because it’s not dealing with these elements, but they could be.
“...even if it was on a blank sheet, a starting point is a fact.”
AN INTERVIEW WITH DAN DORELL
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DGT, Estonian National Museum
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OPEN MIC
DGT, Gare Massena, Paris (2016)
Your firm recently won a competition for ‘Reinventer Paris’ with your concept design of Gare Massena. What were the difficulties in designing and integrating your concept, particularly in a historic area of Paris’s belt railway? For some years now that Paris want to be a leader. This is very French, to be showing all most away for how cities should be and what is architecture, sustainable architecture, of buildings that are actually sustainable. So what they have done in this competition, they have started to give public sites, for private, so it’s actually private money. To justify the fact they are selling public property and getting money out of it, they actually have to give something back to the people. So they have found a very clever way of doing this (via the competition). When they issue the sites that
AN INTERVIEW WITH DAN DORELL
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DGT, Gare Massena, Paris (2016)
are given, whomever is paying more becomes the owner, like an auction. But at the same time, the balance there is how much you give, to people or what do you give the public. So it might be a building that helps pollution or a building that helps different services or a building that grows vegetation, or food, or it creates its own energy. This becomes the basis for the competition. The site itself, which is an old train station, it was a building that had to deal with these issues of, actually dealing with the food issue. The city of Paris had a plan, to vegetate the city, with facades, with roofs, it’s a very ambitious plan, and they are pushing this very much. Of course it is very difficult because technically it’s very difficult to open up the roofs, for vegetation, how to control it, make it, but what they want it very much to make experiments in this direction. Our project won because this is an experiment of how you can make a building, that the building itself becomes like a machine, it’s not just facade, or roof,
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“Our project won because this is a new experiment of how you can make a building, that the building itself becomes like a machine, it’s not just facade or roof, but the facades are active...” DGT, Gare Massena, Paris (2016)
AN INTERVIEW WITH DAN DORELL
but the facades are active by growing vegetation or growing food, or just by reacting to the atmosphere itself, this is producing its own energy, or its producing food that can be feeding the people, this is meant to be a public space where people get to know a sense of local food, for the season, and to see actually how to plant, people will be invited to plant on the building. Being an architect in today’s age, do you think you’re pressured into designing sustainably? I don’t know if you are pressured, but there are two ways to put this. One way is it is fashionable, that everything is sustainable, and it’s a negative aspect if it isn’t. Although the other way is that sustainable buildings are becoming normal, sometimes you will not say that you are doing something sustainable [anymore]. So you’re saying that it’s just become more of a normal thing [to design sustainably]? Yeah, well [in] Europe now more and more, this [sustainability] is the law, when they do a public building the law is supposing that sometimes you even have to be passive. In England, there is a law to be passed in 2018 that a public
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building has to be passive. I’m not sure how this could be a thing, but by law this has to be like this. Besides it being law, sustainability is something that you have to do, everybody agrees, even on a political level. When you do a building it doesn’t have to impact the environment, it doesn’t have to be another thing to take resources away from the planet. So this is good. Maybe in the next few years there will be a comeback, according to the next president and what they try to do but no, they are trying to make a big impact on everything being sustainable and passive. It’s a very big investment in the beginning and some people may not be trying to pay this and leave sustainability for the next guy to take care of it so we may see a comeback to a less rigid requirement system. How do you see architecture changing over the next few years? I don’t know, it could change in many ways, and I think that it will change in one way or another, according to the events of the next year. I think architecture is a materialization of a specific moment, political moment, and economical moment. So according to how the world will evolve, in the next years it can go in many different ways. But let’s say that the world will not
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change in the next years, I think that buildings will become much more attentive to the environment and buildings will become more active. It will not just be an envelope, which is just an aesthetic facade, but everything will have a purpose. The facade will have purpose, the roof will have a purpose, but everything will participate to make a cleaner environment, to produce its own energy. I think that it’s not only the building itself but also the way that we all live. We will all be at the same time consumers and producers, of whatever we use, so the same thing will happen in architecture. From the time you won the Estonian National Museum until now, how much has your firm grown? Well our case is very strange because we started by winning such a big competition, so our firm went from zero to, in only
“It is not like most jobs where you have steady clients, but in architecture, one day you can be a star and the next day on the bottom.�
AN INTERVIEW WITH DAN DORELL
one day, 15 people working. It jumped to start and then fluctuated as we won more competitions. So this is one thing to always keep in mind, our work is not constant. It is not like most jobs where you have steady clients, but in architecture one day you can be the star and the next on the bottom. For example, if my museum construction would have stopped, where it might have at some points, our work at a firm would have stopped in one day and closed our office. And this can happen at any time, because in architecture you have to invest a lot of time. Almost like putting out an album in the music industry. Yes, many people say that it is very similar. When you have a concentration of three architects it’s a bit like a band, with all the good and bad things that can happen. It’s very fragile. What you have to do is drive enough work, enough things, that if one has to stop you can balance and focus on other work, however in reality this is not so easy. What kind of music did you listen to while designing your museum? In the beginning when the office was smaller, there was music playing all the time, but after the office started to grow there was a big discussion about what type of music played. Especially with the noise of the office people started putting on headphones with all types of music. But I remember the music that somehow everyone was okay with while we were working on the museum, was The Most Played Living Composer in the world, who is Estonian. He’s called Arvo Pärt, in a way it’s still classical music but very modern in concept and very good.
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This interview with Dan Dorell was focused upon his growth as an architect, design process, research, and the globalization of architecture. It was a collaborative effort among students of the Video, Media, and Architecture course at Kent State University Florence. Guest lecturers were brought in from all over Europe for a Spring lecture series and students were tasked to create an interview before each of these lectures. After analyzing numerous interviews with other architects, students researched and explored the work of the visiting lecturers. Questions were then devised by each student, and these questions were analyzed based upon their thematic similarity and their relevance to the work of each lecturer. The most appropriate questions were chosen for each interview, and the specific students who created these questions then were charged with interviewing our guests, using the chosen questions as a base and posing any other questions that flowed with the interview.