Appendices

Cooper, A. (2022) In-person interview with Cooper, Anne. 21/12/2022 [Transcript]

Lemuel: I was just looking because I started the case study for Cressingham and became very interested in it, so I thought I’d focus it even more and visit in person.

Anne: I think you’ve done the best thing you could possibly do which is to walk around. It’s something that the council, you know, counsellors and people of all different levels… they just don’t do that and then they wonder why we want to save it. And it frustrates the hell out of me that they don’t do that because if they did, they might have a slightly different take on it all.

Lemuel: I was actually really nervous to knock on people’s doors because I didn’t want to be too intrusive, but when I was walking around, and I saw your sign on the window and thought you might be a good start [referring to the sign “Save Cressingham” poster]

Anne: I mean… I was gonna that I might be biased because I’m one of the activists, but the fact of it is, even way beyond the people who are actually actively doing stuff, the vast majority of people that live here do not want demolition. And that’s what we’re looking at. I mean how do you know?

Lemuel: I mean I’ve done some research and found out that’s been almost a decade long fight now. But I believe there initially was five different options that the council has proposed back in 2013?

Anne: Yeah, you’re right. But that was kind of swept off the table because what happened there was, they gave us these five options. One of them was complete refurbishment and the other end was complete demolition and there were three in the middle. And before we even got the chance to vote, they said ‘actually we’re gonna go with complete demolition’. So that was one of the pivotal moments, and it showed very clearly that they weren’t interested in listening to us.

Lemuel: They did, sort of, organise a workshop initially didn’t they, but that was support didn’t go to plan?

Anne: Well, they started it off with an exhibition saying ‘this is how your new estate could look like’ … Architectural drawings, the big stuff. And then there was a number of meetings where they were put on the spot as to ‘what does this really mean?’. And then they started a consultation program which I can give you something to take away that talks a little bit about the nature of that consultation and it’s pretty pretty horrendous actually. So, in this little book that we made on the estate… the first chapter of that, if you can call it a chapter, is about the consultation process and how shoddy it was. I mean all the way along, it’s been ‘we won’t do anything that you don’t agree with’ and all the way along ‘we’ve made our minds up. This is what we’re doing’. So, we’ve been fighting for 10 years for a ballot. And to bring it right up to date and then you can ask me other things in between, have you heard of Lord Kerslake?

Lemuel: I have not no.

Anne: Well, I mean, it was all kind of ‘who’s this? What’s going on?’. But someone called Lord Kerslake was invited to do a review into Lambeth Housing Provision. It was recognised that there were problems, so he was invited to this review and make recommendations. And one of the things that, word on the street, is that ‘they’re trying to get rid of Homes for Lambeth’ and because that was a company so that it could borrow money, basically works as a developer and has been really failing in many ways. The amount of money they’ve spent on tiny amounts of social housing that they’ve actually produced. Anyway, the result of that, there was a cabinet meeting about two weeks ago where the current cabinet were all like ‘thank you for doing this for us? We really want to hear your recommendations’ and then he spoke, and he was brilliant, and he was very critical of the council and Homes for Lambeth, and he was brilliant really… He went around the borough talking to people and they accepted all the recommendations. And then, as if the whole meeting changed. Him and his team left, and it was like gloves are off you know. There was a couple of nonlabour council who, I think, misguidedly went in way too hard about what a disgrace Homes of Lambeth was, which it is. And I think that got the back up of everyone and when the residents were invited to speak, there was a similar type of mood and quite understandably because we’ve had years of this. It was like they seem to switch from ‘well we accept all this recommendation and accept that we’ve done things wrong’ and then they went into defensive mode, into quoting statistics which probably aren’t even true. And the upshot of it all, as far as Cressingham’s concerned was they said the recommendations said that ‘there will be a ballot, and it will a ‘yes/no’ ballot, but do you want refurbishment’ or, as they called it, renovation. They don’t call it demolition. So, they have actually said that so that will be on some minutes somewhere. But the reason myself, and many other people, are still so cynical is because they’ve been going for this one block…

Lemuel: The one by Roper’s Walk, isn’t it? I’ve sort of read about it…

Anne: …yeah. and the thing is they haven’t drawn back on that, and our argument is that it’s part of the estate. If you’re giving Cressingham a ballot, that includes Roper’s Walk. And they came up with this new bit of jargon which was it’s a ‘site-specific development’ so something like that, and you’re just like ‘no no no. you’ve just made this new thing up!’. And the thing that’s on the back of my mind is, not just me, if they can do that then surely, they can grab another block and call that ‘site-specific development’ and so, they can delay the ballot while they’re just going for this block, that block until we’re living on a building site basically. So that’s the most recent thing, that’s about as precise as I can put it.

Lemuel: That’s very helpful actually because there’s not much written on recent development online, but I’ve read stuff about what’s happened before. So, one of the reasons why I wanted to come was to see what people are up to, their views on current development.

Anne: Yes, I mean, it did go very quiet for a number of years. There was some sense of statis on their side but what hasn’t ceased, if you like, is if that someone in a flat dies, or moves off, that place is not put on the bidding scheme for a homeless family to move into. So, there’s two things that seem to happen, so it’s left empty completely, just left ignored. Or they move in a temporary family. So, the temporary family have little to no rights really, they can have a few weeks’ licence and can be kicked out at a week’s notice. What’s really the problem is being surrounded by loads of empty properties.

Lemuel: Is that the case at the moment?

Anne: Yeah, for sure. And the problem think is that other people walk around, and the word goes out on the street that there are loads of empty homes in Cressingham and the people that are taking advantage of them are not very nice people. There are people that have had these parties that started at 10 at night and when on until 4 in the morning or 12 the next day. So, you’ve got that kind of thing going on which is out of order. And the idea of doing this, I wouldn’t dream of going to a squat party on an estate?! When you’ve got people next door that have got work the next day, and obviously drugs, and I think that was happening about two doors down and I think we’ve sorted that out. Stuff going on in there, which is really unsafe. So, what you’re got, it’s a bit like what’s happening to the NHS in a sense of manage decline. It’s the decline of the standards of properties but it’s also a decline of quality of living for residents that are still here in a very real sense. People are worried. ‘Is that one empty? Is anyone up there?’…

Lemuel: There’s a sense of uncertainty isn’t there? Always questioning what’s happening next door because there’s no one there…

Anne: Yeah, we’ve had that uncertainty for, like you said, a decade. But now you’ve got this other level of it. ‘Who’s moved into that place.’ Even though we’ve had this glimmer of hope with Lord Kerslake, we’re still feeling that the council could pull a fast one really. You just don’t know what they’re gonna do or overturn that decision. So, it’s kind of like being a bit hypervigilant, and anxious, and depressed you know… All these things that can happen to the human mind that are not good. For mental health, it’s a terrible situation! What I would say is worse for people who have never had mental health problems, I’m bipolar myself so I know when my mind is going a little bit and I recognise it. But for people who have never experienced these things, they identify with their thinking which is very negative and anxious and that other stuff. And, to me, it’s a crime to do this to people.

Lemuel: Do you feel that that is, sort of, another tactic or way for people to get into people’s heads?

Anne: I mean I do think that some of it is their own incompetence, and their incompetence produces delays. I don’t know how much of it is a conscious strategy and it’s impossible to know.

Lemuel: Is there a way to get in touch with Lord Kerslake? Because I have messaged @ SaveCressingham but they haven’t responded so I understand.

Anne: I’m getting this out (referring to her iPad) because I remember tweeting to Lord Kerslake at some point and I remember that it was quite hard to actually find out.

Lemuel: Also, what struck me the most while walking around the estate was the photographs on the side of the walls on some houses. Because last year, during my second year in architecture, I did another case study on social housing. I don’t know if you know it… Robin Hood Gardens?

Anne: I’ve heard of it, but I don’t know it? I’ve never been up there, but I’ve met people up there but never actually been.

Lemuel: Yeah, so that was another example that was demolished and the level of activism that has gone into saving it.

Anne: Yeah, I heard it wasn’t nice.

Lemuel: Unfortunately, they’ve demolished it, but they did a similar thing of taking portraits of the residents, so I thought, from doing it last year…

Anne: I think, Mark Akin, they did those, and I think he might have got the idea from Robin Hood Gardens, and he fundraised to cover the cost of it all. And they came up the same years that book came out [referring to the book she wrote which she gave me]. And at that stage, there were high levels of stuff happening but has gone down a bit. I think he wanted to picture people in the ‘in-between’ state, so it’s got that funny name ‘sanctum homes’ and the ‘ephemeral’.

Lemuel: Yeah, that’s what I sort of did for one of my project last year as well. I attempted to go around a neighbourhood and asked people if I could take photographs of them in their homes that humanises the buildings, because I believe, the council and people in power for example, only sees them as numbers and statistics on a piece of paper.

Anne: Yeah, I think you’re right! It feels like a little bit like being a chess piece as well. Not really thinking about the impact it might have if you’re suddenly not living next door to someone who use to have your keys and went to the chemist when you’re ill or vice versa. It’s that, that we feel, is being ripped away.

Lemuel: That’s what I wanted to ask you more about actually… how much does it actually mean to you? How long have you lived here and stuff like that?

Anne: Well, I’m kind of a newbie. I moved in 9 years ago, just a year after this all started. All this stuff. Of course, the council didn’t tell me, they didn’t say ‘here you go Anne, here a flat but we actually have a plan to take it down’. So, I’ve been here 9 years. I mean I did hear about it in the summer when I was waiting for the place, and they did it up quite nicely actually. But when I moved in, I thought this is gonna be my last home. That was my thought. I know that sounds quite negative, but I mean it in a really positive way, that this is the last home that I’m gonna move to. So, for me it’s devastating the idea of being uprooted, possibly twice because in the beginning they were talking about how we’d knock one block down and we’d move everyone from that block to that block.’ The idea of being moved back and forth…

Lemuel: I guess that goes back to what you said about being a chess piece in a game doesn’t it?

Anne: Yeah, exactly! And I love my home! I really love my home. And I love this block and I’ve gotten quite close to some of the neighbours. I’d say I probably know most of them by name, even if we’re chummy if you like. So there’s this incredible sense of safety you know. And it’s like I’m off tomorrow, and I got my christmas cards for the block to do and I was just thinking just to say, you know, ‘I’m away on Wednesday for a week’. Because if I don’t do that, they notice that you’re not there, and obviously the last thing I want is for them to be kicking my door down and think ‘is she lying on the floor unconscious?’. Because they do actually notice when you’re out! But that’s great that they notice that you’re out so it’s like ‘where’s Anne?’ Kind of thing you know.

The only time I had an experience like this as a kid basically, living in Stevenage which was a new town at the time; it was all council. And our street living in Stevenage was about eh size of this block actually. And people would come and knock on your door and say “I’ve made some stew, would you like some” or “I got this cheap bit of brisket down the butchers so if you wanna get some too, you better get down there in a hurry”. So the book I wrote that contains ten or so pieces, and got other residents to write. And you know, I’ve made that comparison, and I was thinking that’s probably why I feel so at home because it’s like going back to the seventies when everyone pretty much goes on about how awful the seventies was, bloody awful as it is now. People were skimped, but they weren’t going to food banks. And people looked in on each other. It was probably more gossipy than this place is and it was less diverse, I mean it was a white town you know. It was built in ’47. At that time, people were moved up from London mostly, so yeah it was different in that respect. Whereas this place is really diverse. Yeah, it’s great!

In one block, in my block… Shaun at the end, who’s very openly gay and we have a muslim family, people from Jamaica and Barbados, and it’s all in on block! There’s very little animosity.

Lemuel: That’s what I wanted to further explore actually… the community. To be able to talk to some of them as well. That’s another question I wanted to ask you actually, if you know anyone who might be willing to have a conversation with.

Anne: I mean I probably do, but the chances of me actually doing anything about it today… What I could do is take some contact details from you. There’s a few people around here who have been here a lot longer than me, and there’s a few, like Connell down then road… although I don’t think he’s been here that long. You know some people have been since the place was built. Many of them moved in in ’78, so you know they don’t want to move.

Lemuel: And I have been watching videos of YouTube actually, and everywhere else, articles of what people have been saying on Twitter and stuff as well. And there’s this one person, I cant remember his name full name but it struck me. I saw his interview, I think his name was Michael?

Anne: Yeah. Michael’s passed away unfortunately. White guy with very short hair. Sadly, he didn’t make it. I didn’t know him terribly well and I think it might have been cancer. But it’s good that that’s out there because he was a very big part of the movement per say.

There’s quite a few residents who have passed away recently. Very little of it has been COVID, it’s just people getting old you know. Getting old and ill. But then there’s that double tragedy you know. I know it sounds awful but they’ve gone, and now there’s another empty flat.

Lemuel: It’s all just a big question mark, isnt it? So, my essay is trying to focus on how what you’ve done for the past decade or so, the activism that has gone towards it, how that is affecting the decisions of the council which is great actually, because it does.

Anne: I’ll show you something actually, because right in the beginning, Gerlinde created this and you might want to take a picture and this was the vision of the campaign to have this many hand if you like, and addition to that we’ve had a book, we’ve had benefit concerts, we’ve had Mark’s photos and artistic elements coming in aswell. And I think that’s why we’re still here, and a lot of people in London are. I mean we’ve been to many housing conferences and how we’re doing stuff here and not like keeping it to ourselves you know. But you know, it is a good model to have these hands. And I think there was a turning point aswell, around 2015 was when we started marching around town hall every Saturday. So that made a difference. It really made a difference because A. people across the borough got to realise there something going on largely behind close doors. And secondly, it made the council realise that we were serious about this.

I mean there’s always a part of me that says, if you do that, the other side pushes back; which they did because they took our options off the table. Would they have done that if there hadn’t been a campaign I don’t know, but what it showed was what they were really like you know. I mean these are things that I wonder you know. If we hadn’t had such a militant kind of campaign, would they have gone more softly with us. You know, their aims it was quite clear that they just want Cressingham Gardens levelled. And that’s not in the interest of, not just people here, but people in surrounding streets that support us. It’s not in the interest of the environment. So there’s another little arm to that five which is environment and ecology. So we’ve also been getting to know what lives here. We did a tree walk and everything.

Research Thesis

Research Focus: How has social and spatial activism affected demolition decisions and architectural planning in the case of Cressingham Gardens Estate?

An Exploration of Gentrification, Activism and Social Justice

IMPORTANT: All the information that is obtained in this interview is for EDUCATIONAL / PROFESSIONAL PURPOSES ONLY (this will not be published publicly; it is specifically for this thesis that will remain within the University for the Creative Arts’ records)

ENQUIRY/INTERVIEW QUESTIONS

1. Interviewee name/age:

2. How long have you lived in the estate?

3. Do you enjoy living here? Do you value and enjoy the community here?

As you probably know, the first regeneration and demolition plans for the estate was proposed back in 2012/2013, and the fight to save the estate is still on-going to this day.

4. How do you feel about the proposed development here at Cressingham Gardens?

- Do you agree or disagree?

- What do you think should the council be aiming to do instead?

Back in October, the C20 Society, an organisation that campaigns to save Britain’s architectural and design heritage, convinced judges of the Architecture Today Awards just how beautiful and culturally relevant Cressingham Gardens Estate is. Stating that the community has really made it their home Just to sweep it away would be reckless.”

5. How much does Cressingham mean to you personally?

- Do you have personal stories about living here? Anecdotes, special memories?

6. Do you know anyone that has had a very strong relationship to the estate or has been deeply affected by the proposed development of the area?

Since 2012, there has been an incredible and overwhelming amount of community support and activism that has happened throughout the fight for Cressingham for over a decade now…

7. Is there anything you would like to say, especially to those imposing these plans, to know?

INTERVIEWER:

Lemuel Gonzales

Stage 3

Architecture Student

Canterbury School of Architecture | UCA 1806430@students.ucreative.ac.uk

Cressingham Gardens Estate

CONSEQUENCES OF ARCHITECTURE Research Group

BA (Hons) Architecture (ARB/RIBA Part 1) Stage 3 Research Thesis

Author: Lemuel Gonzales

Supervisor: Rob Nice

UCA Canterbury, 2022/23

University for the Creative Arts

Canterbury School of Architecture

New Dover Road

Canterbury

Kent CT1 3AN

United Kingdom uca.ac.uk cantarch.org