Dueling with Dumas

Dueling with Dumas Trinidad Express (2003) Is our Government green, as they claim? Does a green flame flutter in the dark recesses of the Red House? MARK MEREDITH interviewed the man who, before Friday’s Cabinet reshuffle, was in charge of green matters, Public Utilities and The Environment Minister Rene Dumas. Will a change at the helm, a woman (Penelope Beckles) hurry things along? The interview was conducted before the disclosure of the shutdown of the Environmental Commission.

MM) Let’s talk about the delays in environmental legislation.

RD) Why you call them delays?

MM) Well, it’s two years since the EMA completed their work on the Water Pollution Rules.

RD) You want to describe the time as two years ago?

MM) That’s what the EMA say.

RD) Two years ago you had a year in which there was no legislation because there was no parliament. To say there’s delay doesn’t make sense. You have a parliamentary agenda. Every single Tuesday and Friday there has been legislation in the parliament. Am I right? Where’s the delay?

MM) But the Rules aren’t there.

RD) But it’s not a delay. A delay suggests you had opportunity in which you can place it (the legislation). And we did not.

MM) No chance, at all, since you were elected?

RD, Laughing) It will be published in very short order. I suggest the Water Pollution Rules will be with you in six months.

MM) And the Air Pollution Rules?

RD) That will take a little longer. Air Pollution Rules are not complete as they are not reviewed by the legislative committee. We’ve adopted the policy of trying out the Air Pollution Rules, and having Water Pollution Rules, but if specific aspects do not meet our intentions or views, then, well, we have to look at everything.

MM) It all takes so long, doesn’t it?

RD) You want law that is ill-considered?

MM) I’m looking for signs of progress. Action.

RD) Look at the legislative agenda. As it unfolds Water Pollution Rules will be in their rightful place. The rules have been reviewed, looked at by the parliamentary committee, and they are ready to put on the table.

MM) The EMA has prepared legal notices designating four Environmentally Sensitive Areas: Nariva Swamp, Matura, Aripo Savannah and Buccoo Reef, which need to be agreed and signed off by Cabinet. Again, this was done a while ago. Where are they?

RD) Between the EMA’s draft and putting into Parliament we have to be sure it is sensible; fits the rest of the body of law of the country; conforms to policy; and is enforceable. Doubts have arisen on the question of some of the applications, and how you can afford them, and what impact they have on development.

MM) There are proposed onshore oil exploration activities that could impact in environmentally sensitive areas, affecting energy companies’ operations in those areas. Does that have any bearing on the delay?

RD) That is an imputation that we are being less than respectful in the matter, Meredith.

MM) No Minister. I’m asking.

RD) It does not stand up. It has nothing to do with that. What it is has to do with is what is best for the country and in fact enforceable.

On Trees, protection, and entrepreneurial environmentalists MM) In your budget presentation you went out of your way to condemn as a “heinous crime” the illegal removal of large teak trees in a Siparia plantation. But you make no reference anywhere to the illegal logging taking place in both islands and the disappearance of our natural forests.

Are your priorities in order?

RD) In my speech you’d have seen the pledge, the commitment, the allocation for increasing protective capacity of the Forestry Division. We’re putting in 45 new forest officers.

MM) The ones you say the UNC removed?

RD) Putting them back, yes. And giving increased capacity for more game wardens, 150 in all.

MM) Is that for Trinidad, or both islands?

RD) There will be 10 for Tobago.

MM) Wouldn’t you be able to spare more for Tobago?

Laughs MM) Well, it’s not that many, is it?

Your $50 million reforestation and watershed protection programme, can you give me some idea when it will start?

RD) We will start it in a month.

MM) I spoke to an assistant conservator of forests yesterday who told me it was nowhere near ready. For anything. “Not off the ground at all,” he said.

RD) We have a perennial fire problem. There are methodologies used for fire protection - fire tracing and other works. We need to put people in there now to do that protection and preparation for planting later.

MM) Are you going to increase manpower?

RD) Yes, including hiring people to do it.

MM) There was a September deadline getting on this reforestation project, I believe. Do you have all your applicants?

RD) Yes, we have a large number. We have 3,900 individuals who’ve applied, and about 250 community groups or companies who have applied for leadership roles. We have a number of service providers who’ve applied.

MM) So where are we with this programme?

RD) We are looking through a list, doing a shortlisting, and then we’ll do the selection process.

MM) Minister, why did you go out of your way to attack one of the applicants, Eden Shand, in your budget speech?

RD) Where did you hear me use Eden Shand’s name?

MM) You know very well, Minister, who you were referring to.

RD) You could have any opinion you want. You did not hear me attack Eden Shand.

MM) No, you attacked the organisation he heads. You said:: “But we have had some professionals - entrepreneurial environmentalists, I like to call them - who point out to the population all the things they would like to be done . . . we have had the Green Leaf here and the Tropical Relief organisation there . . . etc.”

(The Green Leaf is an annual EMA award, and The Tropical ReLeaf Foundation is the NGO headed by Shand.)

MM) Is that, or is that not, Mr Shand?

RD) There’s no reference to Shand.

MM) So who were you referring to?

RD) I’m not referring to Mr Shand.

MM) Then who are the environmental entrepreneurs?

RD) Anybody who cap fit.

MM) That’s a very casual remark.

RD) I’m a very casual person.

On Tobago’s seabirds, eco-tourism awards, and pollution MM) The Prime Minister, Orville London and your ministry addressed an international conference on the conservation of birds in Tobago in July.

The theme was “Birds — Winged Ambassadors for Caribbean Conservation.” Samaan magazine features the poaching of Tobago’s seabird colonies on Little Tobago and St Giles Islands, the most important breeding colonies in the entire south east Caribbean.

Ironic, isn’t it? Hosting such a conference, winning an award as the best eco-tourism destination in the world while the slaughter of wild animals continues apace? Not just the seabirds, but turtles, iguanas , anything that moves. Ten leatherback turtles found slaughtered on one night in July at

King Peter’s Bay. I am told chest freezers up and down the island bulge with wild meat.

You could, at least, protect the birds right now. Show us the commitment to conservation you claim in your speech. More wardens are needed up there, with working boats and radios. Will you do something about it?

RD) As you very well know, you are changing jurisdiction on me.

MM) You’re a Tobagonian, a minister of the environment.

RD) Let me finish, Meredith. You’re changing the jurisdiction. You know the THA has responsibility for that area. We’ve agreed to an increase in wardens, including part time wardens and another category. The total personnel will be 15 to 21 people. On the wider question of the protection of animals in Tobago, that will be discussed between ourselves and the Assembly as to capacity and whatever else is required. These are cultural practices that have to be dealt with.

You evaluate an award like that one on various factors. Yes, there may be practices that are negative. The fact you have won doesn’t mean you have perfection. I don’t want to deal with the suggestion that the award is not a worthy designation. At the same time we have to recognise there are some practices we have to work on.

MM) Well, the seabirds is an example you could work on easily and quickly. Minister, you could take a special interest.

RD, chuckling) We are working on the pollution issue in Tobago, while you look at the birds. The physical management of waste there. We’re putting money up to complete that study by Thames Water.

MM) When can we expect their report and what is it costing?

RD) I would say three months. And to do the study and design about $6-9 million.

MM) So to improve the bathing water quality in south west Tobago, how long? Five years?

RD) No. Right now there are things being done upstream. We’ve done work in Buccoo and Canaan.

MM) What sort of work?

RD) The systems from the housings projects there that are running the sewage untreated into the sea. Treatments have been put in place and now the wastewater is treated. Now nothing goes into the water from those projects. So

now we have to fit all those houses and developments into one system.

MM) But this is urgent stuff. Sewage is killing the Buccoo Reef. Operators still encourage people to walk on what’s left of the coral. Should there be a moratorium on this type of activity?

RD) The management of the reef is an issue we have to discuss now. We have to examine the thing with the THA and see what are the mechanisms. We feel there are other reefs that could take some kind of stress (from boat operators).

But you don’t want to push people onto the reef without rules.

On the Green fund and groupings MM) This leads me to the Green Fund. NGO’s and environmental groups like SOS Tobago need funding to build up their capacity for the selfless work they do, night after night, trying to protect Tobago’s turtles.

RD) Beach patrols have to be tackled separately. We have a section that is dealing with community support for some of that work, and the forestry people will be dealing with that differently from the Green Fund.

I think the furore over the Green Fund is overstated. The part of the law that says collect is very well done. The part of the law that deals with disbursement and management is poorly done. We have to do it over.

MM) Taking a long time, isn’t it?

RD) What is a long time, Meredith? You have to deal with reality. We had a parliament. For a year there was no activity.

MM) What were you all doing during that time then?

RD) We didn’t have legislative capacity. There was a lag in public affairs. That has to be dealt with. We have come in and said while it (the Green Fund) is being worked out, here is some money for reforestation. We are bringing in communities from all over the country. There are going to be 60 or so groups selected. We will work with Tidy T&T, work groups. There is an escalating relationship we are building with community groups out there, in various ways.

MM) Green Fund money wasn’t only meant for communities was it? It was for environmental NGO’s, including old and established ones, that needed money to better help them carry out projects. I, myself, would like funding to help produce Samaan magazine as it provides environmental education, another original purpose of the fund.

RD) That age and capacity of NGO can get money from anywhere in the world.

We are working on getting the legislation right and taking it to Parliament to get it through.

MM) Soon?

RD) That is the best I can give you.

MM) Any chance Samaan would get some?

RD, Laughing) I don’t know. You’re asking me to prejudge MM) Minister, there is a perception of CEPEP . . .

RD, Interrupting) The perception of CEPEP is an engineered perception. The Opposition took a lag on CEPEP and went at it with everything they got. And they were able to convince people who were looking at objectively not to look at it objectively. That’s what has happened.

MM) Maintenance of these projects seems a problem. Cleared areas overgrown, weedy, in disrepair.

RD) CEPEP has not been active for the last month. You know, maybe it is a good thing because what it shows is that there really is a need for its continuation.

MM) If people on those projects had so much pride in their work, as you say they do, wouldn’t they want to maintain what they’ve done regardless?

RD) These people, Meredith, require money to come out there every day. It is a job.

MM) Do they get environmental training?

RD) Some of them do. The foremen.

MM) They obviously need it.

RD) Meredith! When did we find, ever, a workforce that you could take off the street who have never been trained in matters like this and expect them within one year to perfect their training? We have specialist people, professional people, every week finding something to nit about in the performance of the CEPEP. They all accumulate into a litany of woes at CEPEP. And I smile.

CEPEP is a one year old programme. We have taken 5,700 people and put them

on a task. We expect them to give satisfactory performance.

MM) So they won’t be like the URP road gang in my neighbourhood who dug a hole to fix a drain and took a month to fill it in?

RD) You don’t see that work ethic in CEPEP, you see a different work ethic. You see pride. You see drive. And people castigate about painting stones.

MM) Well, it’s a pretty pointless task, isn’t it?

RD) You may say so. But there are people out there who had no pride and have it now.

On the Eco-highway MM) As the Environment Minister, do you think a road should be built between Blanchisseuse and Matelot?

RD) I have now heard the announcement and am now evaluating it.

MM) What is your instinct, then, on the matter, given your stated comments on the importance of forests and reserves?

RD) I reserve my judgement ENDS