Unrevised Hansard-13th Sitting (2017-2021)

Paper Laid TOBAGO HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, MARCH 22ND, 2018

The House met at 1.32 p.m.

PRAYERS [MR. DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER in the Chair]

PAPER LAID (i)

Tobago House of Assembly Monthly Budget Report as at the end of January, 2018. [Secretary of Finance and the Economy (Hon. Joel Jack)].

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ASSEMBLY POLICE BILL – 2003 (Update and suggestions)

MR. DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER: Minority Leader.

39.

MR. WATSON DUKE asked the Chief Secretary and Secretary of

Education, Innovation and Energy the following question: “The Tobago House of Assembly Police Bill, 2003 laid by Mr. Hilton Sandy, was passed in the Assembly Legislature, however this Bill was never laid in Parliament. (a)

Please provide an update on the status of that bill and indicate why the current Executive Council is not pursuing the idea of a THA municipal police service to deal with the issues pertaining to crime in the constituencies under the responsibility of the Tobago House of Assembly.”

UNREVISED

Oral Answers to Questions (Cont’d)

HON. CHIEF SECRETARY AND SECRETARY OF EDUCATION, INNOVATION AND ENERGY [Hon. Kelvin Charles]: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer.

Prior to 2003 the Executive Council of the Tobago House of Assembly would have concluded that it was necessary to secure the island generally and in particular the physical assets of the Tobago House of Assembly. The advice given was to create an alternative Police Force very much like the Police in the City of Port-of-Spain, City of San Fernando, City of Arima and the Borough of Point Fortin which are now all Municipal Corporations or, something that looked like the transit Police who has jurisdiction in the transportation hubs of Trinidad and Tobago. To achieve this they needed Legislation. The Executive Council resolved and the Senior State Counsel produced a first draft of a form of Legislation which was intended to take effect via amendments to the current Tobago House of Assembly Act. The first draft was prepared, sanitized and laid before the Assembly Legislature in 2003.

The THA Act provided rules for the procedure by which an Assembly Bill will reach Cabinet.

So the Bill was drafted and laid before the THA

and subsequently delivered to the then Cabinet of Trinidad and Tobago.

There are rules providing for the procedure by which a Bill is transmitted from

UNREVISED

Oral Answers to Questions (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d)

Cabinet to the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago. For example, the Cabinet would seek the comments of relevant interest groups as for example, the Commissioner of Police who has overall responsibility for policing in this country.

It is a basic principle in the Legislature that a Bye-law or Assembly Law, or other subsidiary legislation should not be in conflict with existing national legislation. So for example, the Bill dealt with recruitment of human resource and so the Statutory Service Commission and the Public Service Commission were asked for their input.

The Chief Parliamentary Council is the one being the expert on Legislative drafting would no doubt take control of this Bill and thereafter a Bill would go before the Legislative Review Committee of the Cabinet.

I am of the view that this Bill traversed the processes and procedures necessary to be laid in Parliament. I can say, further that from 2003 to current this Bill was seen by successive Ministers of National Security and their Legal Advisor or Legislative Advisors. This Bill is in the purview of the Central Government.

I daresay, that implanting of an alternative Police Service in Tobago may seem easier in theory than in practice. Notwithstanding the above, the

UNREVISED

Oral Answers to Questions (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d)

current Attorney General has given a commitment to explore whether an amendment to the existing Municipal Police Act is feasible in the current circumstances.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, may I add, that we are currently in conversation in respect of greater autonomy for Tobago which may also put another spin on this matter.

CONSTITUTION (AMENDMENT) TOBAGO SELF-GOVERNMENT BILL, 2016 (Timelines and Strategies for Support)

MR. DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER: Member for Parlatuvier/L’Anse Fourmi/Speyside.

MR. FARLEY AUGUSTINE:

Parlatuvier/L’Anse Fourmi/Speyside:

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer. Just to way of clarity, part of the question might have already been answered by virtue of information in the public space and this is a deferred question but I will ask it nonetheless for the benefit of the public who may have missed the information as it would have made its way through the public.

40.

MR. FARLEY AUGUSTINE asked the Chief Secretary and

Secretary of Education, Innovation and Energy:-

UNREVISED

Oral Answers to Questions (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE (Cont’d)

“On January 9th, 2018 the Chief Secretary met with a delegation of Cabinet Ministers and other public servants to discuss a draft bill for greater autonomy for Tobago. Can the Chief Secretary tell this House: (a)

Is there a timeline for getting legislation on Tobago’s autonomy to the parliament, and if so, what are the timelines?

(b)

What strategy does the Executive Council plan to utilize to get support for this bill across the political divide in Trinidad given that this bill will most likely require the support of the opposition party in the parliament in Trinidad?”

UNREVISED

Oral Answers to Questions (Cont’d)

MR. DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER: Chief Secretary.

HONOURABLE CHIEF SECRETARY AND SECRETARY OF EDUCATION, INNOVATION AND ENERGY: [Hon. K. Charles] Thank you Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer.

In respect to part (a) of the question, as was alluded to by the Member, the Bill was laid in Parliament on Friday 9th March, 2018.

In respect of part (b) of the question, I wish to advise this Honourable House, that the Forum of Political Parties has the continuing responsibility to organize and mobilize support across the political spectrum for this Bill.

Indeed, Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, the Motion that is before this Honourable House today, seeks to get the support of the Minority in respect of the overall attempt to mobilize support for this Bill.

MR. DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER: Minority Councillor

UNREVISED

Oral Answers to Questions (Cont’d)

POLICY RESEARCH UNIT AT THE DIVISION OF HEALTH (Request for Information as regards the Unit))

44.

COUNCILLOR DR. F. B. YISRAEL asked the Secretary of Health,

Wellness and Family Development the following question: “The Division of Health, Wellness and Family Development includes a Unit with responsibility for Policy and Research. Please provide the following information about the Unit with responsibility for Policy and Research: (a)

The date the Executive Council Note was presented and the date confirmed;

(b)

the list of approved positions for this unit;

(c)

the remuneration package for each position; and

(d)

the Head and Sub-Head of the Vote approved for paying the remuneration”.

MR. DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER: Secretary of Health, Wellness and Family Development.

UNREVISED

SECRETARY

OF

HEALTH,

WELLNESS

AND

FAMILY

DEVELOPMENT: [Hon. Dr. Agatha Carrington] Thank you Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer.

Oral Answers to Questions (Cont’d) HON. DR. A. CARRINGTON (Cont’d) On June 5th 2012, a Note was submitted to the Executive Council.

Such Note was approved through Executive Council Minute 719, August 08th, 2012: Re: - The institutional strengthening of the Department of General Administration, in the Division of Health and Social Services. It was agreed among others matters, to the transformation of the Policy and Research Unit, to include a Planning Component to Policy Research Planning and Development Unit. The positions included:  A Director of Policy Planning and Quality: Monthly Salary Travelling Total

-

$12, 978.00 2,000.00 $14, 978.00

 A Health Policy and Research Specialist: Monthly Salary Travelling Total

-

$12,978.00 2,000.00 $14, 978.00

-

$12,978.00 2,000.00

 A Financial Planning Coordinator: Monthly Salary Travelling UNREVISED

Total

-

$14, 978.00

Oral Answers to Questions (Cont’d) HON. DR. A. CARRINGTON (Cont’d)

 A Planning and Development Officer II, Range 64: Monthly salary Travelling Total

-

$ 9,585.00 2,000. 00 $11,585.00

Such remuneration should be paid under: 15:

Tobago House of Assembly

10:

Health and Social Services;

02:

Goods and Services;

001:

General Administration;

16:

Contract Employment.

March 16, 2017 to Executive Council, a submission and agreed to Minute 109, March 22nd 2017.  The Expansion and Strengthening of the Policy Research Planning and Development Unit, in the now Division of Health Wellness and Family Development to incorporate related functions in General Administration, Office of the County Medical Officer of Health and Tobago Health Studies; and

UNREVISED

 To the redeployment of staff of that Unit.

Note submitted April 10th 2017 to the Executive Council through Minute 231, May 20, 2017 to the Establishment of a Non-communicable

Oral Answers to Questions (Cont’d) HON. DR. A. CARRINGTON (Cont’d)

Disease Registry in the Policy Research and Planning Development Unit of the Division of Health, Wellness and Family Development, namely: A Diabetes, Stroke, Cardiac, Renal, Hypertension, and Cancer therein Registries and to the utilization of the Human Resource capacity in the Office of the Medical Chief of Staff to support the initial Data Collection from all the respective Clinics and input data under the supervision of the Policy Research Planning and Development Unit; No additional financial resources will be required at this time to effect this implementation.

Submitted in September, 12, 2017, an approved November 01, 2017 a Note was submitted. This Note amended this submission of September and which was approved in November on January 24, 2018, to the engagement of staff for the Policy Research and Planning and Development Unit and to the engagement of a Project Co-ordinator the NTU Registry, with payments made from NTU Registry funding: 15:

THA;

10:

Health and Social Services;

UNREVISED

9:

Development Programme;

004: Public Health Services 07B: Medical and Dental Services; and 416: The Establishment of a Non-communicable Disease Registry.

Oral Answers to Questions (Cont’d) HON. DR. A. CARRINGTON (Cont’d)

Thank you.

MR. DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER: Minority Councillor.

TOBAGO REGIONAL HEALTH AUTHORITY (Current Remuneration and Allowances of Members)

45.

COUNCILLOR DR. F. B. YISRAEL asked the Secretary of Health,

Wellness and Family Development the following question: “What are the current remuneration and honoraria of the members of the Tobago Regional Health Authority Board and members of committees established by the TRHA Board (including all fees and allowances)? (a)

Please indicate whether these remunerations, honoraria, and allowances have been changed since January 2017;

(b)

The specifics about the change; and

(c)

Whether the Executive Council and Cabinet approved such change”.

UNREVISED

MR. DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER: Secretary of Health, Wellness and Family Development.

HON. DR. A. CARRINGTON: Thank you Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer.

Oral Answers to Questions (Cont’d) HON. DR. A. CARRINGTON (Cont’d) In response to the questions posed, the current Board of Directors of the Tobago Regional Health Authority appointed by Instruments of Appointment under the Seal of President of Anthony Carmona on June, 4 th 2016 for a period of two (2) years, receives monthly stipends and allowances as follows: Chairman Stipend Travelling

-

$10,000.00 $ 1,000.00

Deputy Chairman Stipend Travelling Communication

-

$ 7,500.00 750.00 750.00

Directors’ Stipend Travelling Communication

-

500.00 500.00 750.00

The second issue with response to “A, B, and C” by Executive Council Minute 472, November 29, 2017, read: “Temporary staff

UNREVISED

arrangement for the post of Chief Executive Officer TRHA (Tobago Regional Health Authority”).

The Executive Council approved the temporary engagement of Ms. Ingrid Melville, Director Lord and Deputy Chairman, to perform duties and responsibilities in the post of CEO (Chief Executive Officer) with effect

Oral Answers to Questions (Cont’d) HON. DR. A. CARRINGTON (Cont’d)

from October 16th and continuing pending the filling of the post.

The

Remuneration is as follows: Basic salary Communication Travelling Housing Entertainment Personal Allowance

-

$38,000.00 500.00 3,000.00 4,000.00 2,100.00 5,700.00

The funds to meet this Expenditure will be drawn from the Tobago Regional Health Authority. They have been no other changes requiring my comment at this time.

UNREVISED

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d)

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL BUSINESS MOTION REQUEST TO SUPPORT THE CURRENT PROCESS OF SELF-GOVERNMENT FOR TOBAGO

MR. DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER: Honourable Chief Secretary [Desk thumping] HON. CHIEF SECRETARY AND SECRETARY OF EDUCATION, INNOVATION AND ENERGY (Hon. Kelvin Charles): Thank you Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer.

“WHEREAS the Prime Minister of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago, Dr. the Honourable Keith Rowley, has submitted for the consideration of the Parliament the Constitution Amendment (Tobago Self Government) Bill; AND WHEREAS the Constitution Amendment (Tobago Self Government Bill will now go before a Joint Select Committee of Parliament thereby providing another opportunity for public input;

UNREVISED

AND WHEREAS Self Government for Tobago is a long standing issue that transcends political divides on the island.

AND WHEREAS this current process was initiated, led and managed by the Forum of Political Parties; BE IT RESOLVED that this House affirm its support to the current process for realizing Self Government for the island of Tobago; Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY

(Cont’d)

AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the members of this House demonstrate their support by appointing a Special Select Committee comprising three members of the Majority and two members of the Minority, with the mandate to work closely with the Forum of Political Parties to mobilize national support for the Constitution Amendment (Tobago Self Government) Bill.”

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, I seek your leave to quote liberally given the nature of this Motion from my notes.

Consider the postage stamp, its usefulness consists in the ability to stick to one thing till it gets there - just bill it. Tobago’s quest for autonomy to govern its own affairs spans many decades. The fundamental issue has been the concern over the lack of genuine opportunity afforded to Tobagonians to participate in critical decisions that impact their daily lives.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, as you may be aware, the first elected Tobago Assembly held its inaugural session at Georgetown, now Studley

UNREVISED

Park in July 1768. Seventy (70) years before the final freedom granted to the slaves.

When Tobago became a British possession in 1763, it was administered under a British Colonial Constitution by the Government of Grenada which in addition to Tobago, included the Grenadines, Dominica and St. Vincent. Political arrangements changed with regularity and even suffered reversals.

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY

(Cont’d)

But by the late eighteenth century the island had been granted a separate Government.

In 1874 Tobago’s Bicameral system was abolished and replaced by a single Chamber Legislature.

In June 1876 Tobago became a Crown Colony and like Trinidad would have a solely nominated Legislative House or Council.

Mr.

Deputy Presiding

Officer,

history records that despite

protestations effective January 1st, 1899 by an October 1898 Order in Council, Tobago became a Ward of the Colony of Trinidad and Tobago thereby losing its own Financial Board, Treasury and Statute Book.

UNREVISED

It has been noted, that the mission for Tobago’s autonomy started more than sixty (60) years ago with James Alexander Biggart and continued with Adolphus Philbert Theophilus James.

Former Prime Minister and President Mr. A. N. R. Robinson tabled a Motion in the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago in 1976 calling for Internal Self-Government for Tobago and an amended Motion was debated in 1977 the outcome of which resulted in Act 37 of 1980. This Act, Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, fell far short of the expectations of the people of Tobago.

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY

(Cont’d)

Interestingly, the country’s first Chief Minister, Dr. Eric Williams noted in 1957 that and I quote: “Tobago had exchange the neglect of United Kingdom imperialism for the neglect of Trinidad imperialism.”

In his view, Tobago is a test case, its development is necessary to illustrate to the West Indies and the world outside, our capacity for selfgovernment and taking care of our own affairs.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, today we stand on the threshold of history saying to Trinidad and the world outside, we possess the capacity for self-government and taking care of our own affairs albeit within the

UNREVISED

framework or context of the sovereign democratic state of Trinidad and Tobago.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, subsequent to Act No.37 of 1980 and its repeal and replacement by Act No.40 of 1996, many groups have sought to advance the process of greater autonomy for Tobago by way of consultations with various groups and sectors of the population. These advocates include but are not limited to:  The Reginald Dumas team which spearheaded the Calder Hall Accord; Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY

(Cont’d)

 Former Parliamentarian Pamela Nicholson; 

Lawyers Christo Gift, Senior Counsel; and



Deborah Moore-Miggins who led the Tobago Forum for the Consensus on the Constitution;

 Tobago Civil Society and proper governance of the previous governments Green Paper, among others.

The objective of Tobagonians taking full control of their island represents a shared vision by an entire population. The view has been expressed however, and not by an insignificant number of persons, that previous attempts that were made to achieve greater autonomy for Tobago

UNREVISED

failed because they were spearheaded and championed by individuals, separate political groupings. There was no united approach.

In the aftermath of the 2013 Tobago House of Assembly elections, the Honourable Orville London, then Chief Secretary of the Tobago House of Assembly accepted a proposal from Mr. Hochoy Charles, Political Leader of the Platform of Truth for a meeting to discuss the issue of Self-Government or greater autonomy for Tobago. In this regard and in acknowledgement of the view expressed above, a team of political leaders and the Tobago House of Assembly known as the “Forum” resolved to set aside their individual political parties’ agendas and differences and agreed to a united approach to Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY

(Cont’d)

continue the journey to Self-Government on behalf of the people of Tobago pledging to ensure that a people’s hope for Self-Government becomes a reality.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, for the records, the first meeting among the Leaders of the three (3) Political Parties which contested the 2013, Tobago House of Assembly elections comprising:  Mr. Neil Wilson, Chairman of the People’s National Movement;  Mr. Ashworth Jack, Political Leader of the Tobago Organization of the People;

UNREVISED

 Mr. Hochoy Charles, Leader of the Platform of Truth; and  Mr. Orville London, Chief Secretary of the Tobago House of Assembly was convened on Tuesday 7th January, 2014 at the Mt. Irvine Bay Hotel, Tobago.

Other attendees included:  Mr. Samuel Mapp; and  Mrs. Julianna Henry-King (of the TPT)  Messrs Rennie Dumas; and  Stanford Callendar of the PNM;  Mrs. Sherry-Anne Rollocks-Hackette of the TOP; Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY

(Cont’d)

 Mr. Norris Jack (Note taker).

The Honourable Orville London, Chief Secretary chaired this and subsequent meetings.

A Secretariat comprising a dedicated team of professionals independent of partisan politics was engaged to assist in the forward movement of the entire process.

UNREVISED

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d)

Its mandate was to facilitate the hosting of a series of meetings; consultations; and conferences; design to engage the populations of Tobago and Trinidad in discussions pertinent to Self-Government for Tobago and the constitutional relationships between the islands of Tobago and Trinidad.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, again a series of meetings and Public Consultations was held during 2014, and involved the widest possible participation for all stakeholders. The list includes:  Parliamentary and Tobago House of Assembly Representatives; 

Individual Political Activist and Political Commentators;

UNREVISED

 Other Political Parties and Interest Groups; 

Commercial interests,

 Fishing and Agricultural Associations;  Small business groups;  Chamber of Commerce;  Labour Unions;  Business and other Professional Organizations;  Construction Industry;

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d)

 Tourism and Allied Industries;  Financial Institutions;  Faith Based Organizations;  Arts and Cultural Organizations;  Youth and Sport groups and Schools;  Farmers; 

Fisherfolk;

 Village Councils;  Community Councils;

UNREVISED

 Other Community Based Organizations including Steel band Leaders; 

NGO’s;

 Social Educational Health etcetera;  Householders in Tobago;  Tobagonians in Trinidad and overseas; and  Trinidad interests.

Four (4) area Conferences were held during the July/August period of 2014:

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d)

 Tobago South West at Rovannels Resort;  Tobago North and East at Roxborough Secondary School; 

Tobago North and Central at Mason Hall Secondary School; and;

 Trinidad - Teaching and Learning Centre University of the West Indies.

UNREVISED

At a Convention held on Sunday 14 th September, 2014 at the Signal Hill Secondary School, and after months of meetings; public consultations; public education; and engagement of the populations of Tobago, Trinidad and the wider diaspora, at an event that attracted in excess of five hundred (500) persons, a resolution was adapted that inter alia authorized; instructed; and mandated

the Forum of Political Parties, to take all proper and

necessary steps to achieve and secure democratic Self-Government to Tobago in the shortest possible time. In executing its mandate, two (2) Draft Bills were developed applying, tried and tested principles for constitutional amendment and sustainable development reflecting the documented wishes of the people of Tobago.

The Draft Bills were shared and discussed with

various interest groups and opinion leaders and presented at a broad-based

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d)

public Conference in September 2016. The final Draft of the Constitution Amendment Tobago Self-Government Bill 2016 is adopted at the Conference.

In October, 2016, that Draft Bill was also debated and passed at a Plenary Session of the Tobago House of Assembly at a session where the Chief Secretary, the Honourable Orville London removed the whip to allow for frank and unhindered debate. The Bill which was submitted to Cabinet may I say, does not alter the sacrosanct preserve of the Sovereign UNREVISED

Democratic State of Trinidad and Tobago, but accords Tobago autonomy at the highest level by entrenching the institutional framework and functions for the governance of Tobago in the Constitution with the following features:(1)

Lawmaking powers;

(2)

Executive authority similar to Cabinet;

(3)

A clear and define area of jurisdiction including the geographical limit within which the laws would operate;

(4)

Adequate resources to fund its Projection and Programmes;

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d)

(5)

Control over the Human Resource which will operationalize development;

(6)

Processes for participatory development; and

(7)

Built-in mechanism for oversight checks and balances.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, Cabinet having deliberated on the matter, has laid a Bill in Parliament which will be the subject of further

UNREVISED

consideration by a Joint Select Committee of both Houses. It is in that context that this Motion is tabled today in this Honourable House, to continue the bi-partisan march towards greater autonomy for Tobago, consistent with the wishes of the people of Tobago and the mandate instruction and authorization given to the Forum of Political Parties as stated earlier.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, it therefore gives me tremendous pleasure in presenting this Motion today in this Honourable House, seeking to establish a Special Select Committee between Members on this side and Members on the other side, so that together we can work towards organizing and mobilizing national support for the Bill that is currently laid before the Parliament.

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d)

Therefore, Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, I beg to move. thumping] Question proposed.

MR. DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER: Minority Leader.

UNREVISED

[Desk

MR. W. DUKE: Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, Colleagues, what a great moment, this moment is.

A movement when the issue that have had

Tobagonians trapped; have had Tobagonians worried. The issue that James Biggart, first legislative personnel representing Tobago would have fought for; the issue that A.P.T. James would have fought for; the issue that the late beloved son of the soil A.N.R Robinson would have fought for, stood and spoke about in 1977, that our good friend Dr. Winston Murray would have championed is finally coming come.

I want to agree with the Chief Secretary in that the postage is stamped, but it is not yet delivered. We agree to a great extent, (the Minority Council) with the Bill.

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE

(Cont’d)

Indeed Internal Self-Government is a must and we cannot afford to delay a posting of that stamped letter. Our trouble is the postage have been stamped by the Central Government in Trinidad maybe delayed and so today, to avoid any unnecessary delays, I wish to divulge the contents of the

UNREVISED

letter marked, “The Constitutional Amendment Bill” which is really the Tobago House of Assembly Amendment Bill.

I will begin by saying to those people who we represent outside of this House which is actually who forms the highest public officials, the Members of John Public who are now viewing and will listen later on, that what is being contemplated by the Central Government is not a Bill or an amendment to the Tobago House of Assembly Act, it is a replacement, not an amendment we are talking about. A total, total replacement. Whereas the Tobago House of Assembly Act is just an Act - this is the Constitution now that we are getting into. It is very important that all and sundry recognize that, Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer.

As such, once we are talking Constitution, we are now saying that the Tobago House of Assembly will no longer be like what they called “A Corporate Business.” That is how it is being run right now – a Corporation.

It will be entrenched in the Constitution and we can therefore, say, that will

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE

(Cont’d)

constitute part of Trinidad and Tobago officially.

It is written in the

Constitution, then it becomes the rights of every single individual in Trinidad and Tobago to know that the role of the Tobago House of Assembly

UNREVISED

is no longer relegated to a County Council type of operation but rather that it is equally status to Trinidad.

When this Bill was in its embryonic stage the Forum were going around and we had our good friend, Dr. John Prince Report, we had the Reginald Dumas Report etcetera, etcetera, they were going around knocking on the doors, knocking on communities, knocking on several places garnering views. The views of Tobagonians, the rank and file people were collated and they produced a document. Sometimes we do not read the contents of the letter before we post it, we just post it. What is inside the document is of critical importance.

What is inside the document is

important. So I want to get to that document.

You gave me a book here it is a book of books, “yes” it is called, “The Report of Commissions Appointed to Examine the Proposed Legislative Offerings for Conformity with the wishes of the People of Tobago.” That is my point. This Constitutional Amendment must conform to the wishes of the people of Tobago not the people of Trinidad. This amendment must as we say, “must to bound” conform to the wishes of the people of Tobago.

When Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE

(Cont’d)

UNREVISED

they were trying to capture the wishes they were many and so they were able to collate them in twelve (12) areas and I will go through them in the remaining minutes.

The wishes of the Tobago people that stands outside this House is first and foremost equality of status between the two (2) islands and a legislative framework that reflects such equality.

I must say that the Bill is a good attempt - a very good Bill, Mr. Chief Secretary. Your predecessors and all the works that went into it is a very good attempt at creating equality. Even the reading of it, when I read it, I smiled I say, “Yes, man, we getting somewhere now.”

I said, “Yes, Tobagonians

have finally been respected, our cries have been heard.”

Here it is in the Draft Bill you will find very early o’clock under Clause 5 the Statement that says: “There shall be equality of status between the islands of Trinidad and the islands of Tobago.”

I like that. For the very first time in a document they referred to Trinidad as “an island” and to Tobago as “an island” they actually made a distinction.

But I must say, it is the only distinction after that, the island of Trinidad quickly became the island of Trinidad and Tobago. That is my problem with this Bill.

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE

(Cont’d)

UNREVISED

The island of Trinidad cannot represent the island of Trinidad and Tobago.

Trinidad has to know their place. The people of Tobago do not want that.

They want equality between the island of Trinidad and the island of Tobago.

What equality means is very simple.

My children who are still

children will tell you that, “Nah, this ain’t equal how she got more and I get less?”

Children and all know equality.

So let’s check - a careful reading of the Bill would recognize that there is no island government in Trinidad but an island government prescribed for Tobago. How could that be fair in that equality of States?

They want to create an island government for Tobago and I say, “yeah I am happy about that, I am supporting the Island Government in Tobago.”

But Trinidad requires an

island government also this is equality we are speaking about. There is none, Trinidad continues to play the role of Trinidad and Tobago and it is wrong.

Then we are talking about we have a Chief Secretary, Minority Leader, Assemblymen, Councillors etcetera in Tobago House of Assembly or we call it the Tobago Island Government and I am okay with that, but Trinidad does not have a Chief Secretary, a Minority Leader or Assemblymen.

Trinidad continues to take on the role of Trinidad and

Tobago and I have a problem

UNREVISED

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE

(Cont’d)

with that but we are supporting we Chief today. [Desk thumping] We supporting we Chief because we want our Chief to man-up and support us as we say Tobago demands equality of status so we supporting him because he is the voice we have. He might be a little bit tongue timid but therefore, we behind him. The Minority Leader behind you, the people behind you, the PDP behind you and when the PDP and the PNM get together who could talk again, is Tobago coming down but you have to man-up and we demand equality of status.

I have a problem in that within the Constitution they have defined an area for the Tobago House of Assembly or the Tobago Legislature or Island Government.

They have defined that and I love the finishing of it, very

clear, very concise, I mean it reflects generally our thoughts but when you look for the area that defines Trinidad there is none. What we have is Trinidad again playing the role of Trinidad and Tobago. Now you may say that I am being facetious, you may say I am being trivial, you may say that what so big about that but here is what is big about that.

Trinidad has defined for us under the cloak of Trinidad and Tobago an eleven (11) mile radius saying that is our territorial sea and my comrade Assemblyman Farley will get into that.

UNREVISED

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE

(Cont’d)

They say we could make laws for Little Tobago, St Giles Island, Goat Island, every little island we have outside there but we have no jurisdiction over any single thing that lies within there only laws we could make, we cannot extract nothing and anything beyond that is Trinidad and Tobago.

Where is Trinidad territorial sea? Trinidad never defined any sea for themselves but they take everything and gave us eleven (11) miles. Prior to that they had given us seven miles, now they have given us five more so we say, “Hoorah” for that.

Trinidad must define for themselves eleven (11)

miles too. That is what we are talking about equality – “side by side we stand.”

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, I want to talk about also too in the new Bill it is said that the Chief Secretary, Minority Leader and all Assemblymen our salaries will be determined by the SRC (Salaries Review Commission). `

UNREVISED

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE

(Cont’d)

What about the Upper House called, “The Peoples House?” What about the additional fifteen (15) seats? I want the Chief Secretary in winding up to tell us whether or not he contemplate calling an election and I say, calling an election after the Constitution Amendment is passed he has to answer that question. We do not want him to just jump over now with all this power of Chief Secretary and you have a,b,c changing up all kind of lines, boundary lines, doing all kind of things we want to know. How do we make room for the Upper House – People’s House and I will get to that just now.

It is a very important question for the Chief Secretary to answer how do we transition from this old model into the new model without an election? If there is an election I say, bring the Bill quick, we take it with all the errors and we will correct it later. [Laugher] If you say that comrade, [Laugher] Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, if the Chief Secretary stands and says he decides to have an election so we could bill out the Upper House, Lower House etcetera, fix the thing after the passage of the Bill and the transition of personal etcetera, I will say to him we will take all the errors inside it and we will go with everything full sale because we know on the next side we will fix it. [Crosstalk] [Desk thumping] We will fix it on the next side, we will not give you that trouble, we will ease you up. [Crosstalk] [Laughter]

UNREVISED

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE

(Cont’d)

The people of Tobago also wanted to find out – we are magnanimous.

That’s right. The people of Tobago also long for a definition between the relationship of Parliamentarians and the THA. This is where I was saying in a meeting we had earlier in the week with the Chief Secretary, I was saying to him that we need to ensure that either Trinidad adapt the same names as Tobago or Tobago island government adapt the same names as Trinidad. Therefore, instead of calling our Chief Secretary, Chief Secretary, the position must now be the Premier.

Call him “Premier” or “Prime Minister” because it is equality.

If Trinidad have their Prime Minister down there because there is no place called, “Trinidad” as yet and we are looking for that. Once the two (2) are joined and you separate one, Trinidad cannot hold on to the title Trinidad and Tobago, it is now Trinidad. So we want equality of status, equality of rank, Premier, Ministers. All like my brother Spencer will have a nice title, a nice ring to it “MP Spencer”, Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries, yuh guh like yourself for the short time that remain until the Parliament is paroled. I said Parliament because House of Assembly at a subnational level often refers to a Unicameral System and it is cloaked in colonialism. We need to move away from that.

We need to do like Scotland.

UNREVISED

In Scotland they

refer to their House as the Parliament of Scotland. We want a Parliament in Tobago.

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE

(Cont’d)

We are talking about equality, the people of Tobago wanted that. I did not write the Report this is what was said in the Report.

When coming to the Upper House, we do not want a People’s House, we want a Senate and quickly I will add. The People’s House has been watered down by this PNM Administration.

My time is almost up let me

speak quickly. In the former Administration, the People’s House should have been comprising of about twenty-seven (27) Members. In this version, the People’s House only consist of thirteen (13).

In the older version, the 2012 version the People’s House consists of seven (7) persons from what we will call these Parishes (very outdated thing) and the other twenty something from groups of society. So we talking – I heard you mentioned some of the groups. We talking groups like:       

Cooperatives; Labour; Women group; Youth groups; Sports Club; Fisherfolks; Teachers;

UNREVISED

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE

    

(Cont’d)

Taxi Drivers; Accountants; Nurses; Religious Bodies; The people who driving the boat.

They have a chance to come inside here and sit down. Even the:  Jetski Operators; Their names were listed here.  Construction persons;  Engineers;  Those guys who are selling on the music cart on the road.

They have a chance to come inside here because once you have a registered group and you were able to form an Association you have a chance to become part of the People’s House.

The People’s House in 2012 version simply represented after two (2) years, a group of eight (8) would leave and a new group of eight (8) will come in. So at the end of the day everyone would get a chance to be involved in governance.

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) UNREVISED

MR. W. DUKE

(Cont’d)

You know what the Government in Trinidad did, they removed all of those groups and put in one (1) group and buss it up six (6) ways. They put in their friends from the business community and instead, they said they have six (6) groups, one (1) is the commercial group, two (2) tourist sector, agriculture, environmental sector, service sector and the legal sector. But where is the fisherfolk group, where are the teachers, where are the Religious group, where is Labour?

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, so at the end of the day, we see a water down. But we reject the notion of a People’s House. It is backward, it is archaic, it reminds me of the Plantocracy System.

What we need is a

Senate, we need a Senate.

Furthermore, the people of Tobago required legislation for the wider participation of society in the decision-making process of Tobago? That is the last thing they require.

In so doing, they would have set up the People’s

House. Now, I like the idea of the People’s House but I do not like the name.

Like must mean like.

You see when you are talking to your

associates in Caricom and elsewhere and you say, “Well, I am a Member of the People’s House.” They will ask you in Caribbean palance, “Ah wah dat?” Because no one has ever heard of the term, “The People’s House.”

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) UNREVISED

MR. W. DUKE

(Cont’d)

The People’s House, let me tell you this, when you look at legislative framework the People’s House is often the First House, the Lower House, hence in England they call it “The House of Commoners.”

They call it,

“The House of Representatives”, that is where the people are best represented.

When you get to a higher House, you are asking for people with supervisory powers and that House is best referred to as “a Senate” or “a Congress.”

MR. DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER:

Member, you have one (1)

minute left.

EXTENSION OF SPEAKING TIME

Motion made: That the Member’s speaking time be extended by ten (10) minutes. [Mr. F. Augustine] Question put and agreed to.

MR. DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER: Member continue.

MR. W. DUKE: Thank you so much. I was expected to hear some “Aye” from the other side. I thought you were partnering today. [Laughter] Your soul will sell you out, you do not want me to speak at all. Not a “Aye” from the other side.

HON. K. DES VIGNES: You have made your point. [Laughter] Request to Support the Current Process UNREVISED

of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d)

MR. W. DUKE: All in all, as I bring this thing home I wish to say that the Bill placed before the Parliament, I will give it a sixty percent (60%) pass grade. Which is a very high mark in my book. If I was in University, I will say, that’s a Merit.

Anything above sixty (60) a merit. Anything above

seventy (70) should be a distinction but I say, merit is good, it is not bad because it gives Tobago a certain level of autonomy but the Chief Secretary has control over the Executive Council and over a number of areas that exceeds what we now have control over though they are not listed but they are listed by limiting the things we have control over which is in the Fourth Schedule. It is a very good thing.

UNREVISED

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. K. DES VIGNES

(Cont’d)

I want to challenge us all to start finding and holding on to the things that make us proud and the things that make us proud are not the tangible things.

Very often the things that make us proud are the intangibles, the sunsets over a beach. Seeing children playing; seeing our community coming together; planting garden; reaping your harvest.

Speaking of Harvest, going to

Harvest Festivals those things bring pride. We have many things to be proud about here in Tobago and I dare say, Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, as we move towards Self-Government, as we move forward as an island, as a people we have every reason to be proud.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, I spoke about being a proud father.

Now when I got news of the fact that I was going to be a father it really took me back, it took me into a place of much introspection.

Because the

Minority Leader spoke about names and names can be important yes.

Names can be important sometimes, some occasions and I remember agonizing over to what name should I give to my son and I settled on a name that meant “Supplanter.”

The Oxford Dictionary defines Supplanter, as superseding – take over.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, what we need to understand, what we need to come to terms with is that someone outside now is sitting under the shade of a tree or sitting in the shade because someone a long time ago

UNREVISED

decided to plant a tree. We are not doing it or we are not pursuing greater selfRequest to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. K. DES VIGNES

(Cont’d)

governance only for the people around the Table here today, we are pursuing it for our sons, our daughters and generations of Tobagonians yet to come.

We have a responsibility whether it be moral or otherwise to stand upright with pride and say, “Tobago get on board.” This is ours for the taking, this is our business, Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer. We have to stand tall and proud and get everyone on board and even if we have to take people on our backs, let us do what we have to, to get each and every Tobagonians on board because as the Motion says: “This issue transcends the boundaries of Party Politics.” It is no longer about the PNM (People’s National Movement), or the PDP (People Democratic Patriot) or the TPT (Tobago Platform of Truth) or the whoever that want to come or go. The reality is we need to look forward.

I often heard the comment, “Well, weh you rushing for, Rome was not built in a day.”

Yes, Rome was not built in a day but what we often forget

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, is the fact that Rome was built. As people stood and marvelled that the city of Rome they were told, well, it was not built in a day. So the question is then, how was Rome built? It was day by day. That is how we have to build Tobago and this is the opportunity for us

UNREVISED

to build Tobago, day by day as we pursue Self-governance, Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer.

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. K. DES VIGNES

(Cont’d)

We are not looking for that perfect document, we are not looking for providence, we are saying now, we have taken upon the task to govern ourselves so that we can build Tobago day by day.

Whether you want to

build Tobago community by community, block by block or child by child, the reality is we are all here on the same mission.

I want us to recommit ourselves and this is what this Motion is calling for, for us to recommit ourselves to this process and to the fact that we support this drive for Self-governance for Tobago that was started so long ago, by many more who would have come before us.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, the question then is, why Selfgovernance? Why is it so important? The question may have some merit to some but we need to recognize that the inherent right of self-government is based on the view that the People of Tobago have the right to govern themselves in relation to matters that are internal to our communities, integral to our unique culture, our identities, our traditions and institutions

UNREVISED

and of course, with respect to our special relationship with our land and our resources.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, why Self-Government or Selfgovernance because it is our inherent right.

There is no way to water it

down. We live in the twin island Republic of Trinidad and Tobago. The reality is, Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. K. DES VIGNES

(Cont’d)

we are all patriots or should be patriots here as we stand, we sing our National Anthem and so on but even when we do that we recognize even our National emblems, the Coat of Arms.

There are differences inherent between Trinidad and Tobago. On one side of the Coat of Arms is the Scarlet Ibis, on the other side is the Cocrico.

There are differences, inherent differences that we have to recognize and respect.

In respecting the differences that are Tobago or of Tobagonian we have the inherent rights to determine what is best in our space. For example, the great fringing Reefs that was the Buccoo Reef and other Reefs around Tobago are more near and dear to us than any other Reefs that may exist in Trinidad, the few that may exist. It means that having this ability, Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, to take control of what is near and dear to us is paramount. There is an opportunity through Self-Government to ensure that

UNREVISED

this is done but Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, not everyone is yet on board and we have a task on our hands. There are some that say they are fearful of what would happen. There are some are saying that they are fearful that in the hands of these people we might find ourselves in trouble. There are some that are fearful that we are not yet ready and our people are not yet ready to govern themselves.

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. K. DES VIGNES

(Cont’d)

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer and this quote should really be familiar to all of us: “Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us.”

Coincidentally, the newly inaugurated President elect, Her Excellency Paula Ma Weeks spoke to our light and I want us to leave this House today as lights, Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, as lights that are designed to light every crease, corner, crevice of Tobago. Of lights of enlightenment, lights that gather support, lights that are infectious. As we touch each and every Tobagonian we turn them into a light as well, we turn on, we flick the switch on and everyone is tuned in and turned on to the fact that Self-Government is important for Tobago and there is no better time than now. Because we are building Tobago day by day so that when we look back or when people

UNREVISED

look back and we say Tobago was not built in a day, we can say it was built and we built it day by day.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, the reality is, we must be better off than we were before.

There was a time when Tobago (as the Chief Secretary

would have spoken to) made its own decisions, its own Exchequer, its own Treasury and so on. Bit by bit that was moved away from the centre here in Tobago and moved to Trinidad in the seat of Parliament. All well and good, Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. K. DES VIGNES

(Cont’d)

but we are saying, Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, the decision-making powers for what is Tobago and what is Tobagonian’s should lie primarily with the people of Tobago.

UNREVISED

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. K. DES VIGNES (Cont’d)

For those of you who wonder why Self-Government under the umbrella of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago. I often say, I have a father who does not play with his News. When it was Panorama at 7.00 p.m. (no matter what you were doing with the Television) meant it was News time. No matter what you had to turn the TV to look at News. We now have the opportunity Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, because before we were under the roof of my father, we lived under my father’s rule; the man of the House. But think of it we are building, we have our own space. We are able to say within this space under this roof this is mine. When it is 7.00 p.m. if I want to watch News or not, it matters not. It is important for me to do something else. I want to look at something else. We are under the same roof yes, but I can determine what I want to do in my space.

UNREVISED

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, I submit that we go out as a collective, we support the Forum of Political Leaders and we get Tobagonians excited about the prospects of Self-Government for Tobago. It is important for each and every one of us not for today, for our children, our grandchildren and for their children and their grandchildren.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, I thank you. [Desk thumping]

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER: Member for Parlatuvier/L’Anse Fourmi/Speyside.

MR. F. AUGUSTINE:

Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Presiding

Officer.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, I want to join my Colleagues expressing pride; and elation and gratitude for the privilege of being in this House for such a time as this. In fact, any other group of people could have been in this House at this time, when for the second time within less than five (5) years that the Parliament in Trinidad, is going to be discussing, going to be looking at granting Tobago greater autonomy.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, the Minority supports this Motion, because this Motion asks us to do two (2) things. It asks us to:

UNREVISED

(1)

Support the process; the process that is now before us which is that there is a Bill before a Joint Select Committee of Parliament that has until July thereabout to discuss; to amend and to look at the proposed Tobago Bill.

I will call it, “Tobago Bill” for short.

(2)

Form a Special Committee of this House that will sit, that will work along with the Forum of Political Organizations or

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE (Cont’d)

Political Parties that will help mobilize national support for this Bill.

Now, Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, I want to briefly in very general terms tell Tobagonians what we are looking at, at this time. We are looking at a Bill that proposes that we move from a Uni-cameral System to a Bicameral System. A Bill that proposes two (2) Houses, one with fifteen (15) and one with thirteen (13) Members. We are looking at a Bill that seeks to afford in the Chief Secretary, equality in Executive powers with that of the Prime Minister to his Cabinet and the Legislature in Trinidad so it will be with the Chief Secretary’s Executive and this House or the Houses that he will now have here in Tobago. We are also looking at a Bill that seeks to make as the minimum our subvention from the national purse, eight percent UNREVISED

(8%).

If you look even at the 2013 Bill, that was proposed by the

Government then, eight percent (8%) as a minimum, is significantly larger than what was proposed in that Bill.

We are also looking at a Bill unfortunately that seeks to give us jurisdiction over eleven (11) miles, just the eleven (11) miles separation between Trinidad and Tobago as in point to point.

Yes, Mr. Deputy

Presiding Officer, I wish to state for the record that us supporting this Motion and for you Tobagonians looking supporting this Motion, does not

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE (Cont’d)

mean that you have agreed with every single thing in the Bill as it is now laid out. I want to say to Tobagonians (because I really want to talk to those outside of the House today) that we have this opportunity and will have the opportunity to go before a Joint Select Committee of Parliament and to express those things that we have reservation with and those things that we agree strongly with. But make no mistakes, all of us, all sixty thousand (60,000) of us, must go before the JSC (Joint Select Committee) directly or indirectly and say, “We are in support of Tobago greater autonomy”. There should be no question about that.

No question about us wanting the

privilege; the honour; the inherent right to govern ourselves. we support this process?

UNREVISED

Why should

All of Tobago must support this process as the Motion ask us to do because this is the safest and the most legitimate process. Thanks to a great historical injustice, pegged to another island called, “Trinidad”. We are a part of a Republic with two (2) main islands and so the legitimate and safe process is one whereby we go through the Parliament of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago. That is the only legitimate and safe process. Barring that, is if we want to riot, or perhaps bun dung di place, or perhaps try terrorism as some States have used such as Northern Ireland, but that is not

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE (Cont’d)

what we will advocate in this House. So therefore, all of Tobago must be behind this process. We have a second opportunity within five (5) years to actually sit with the Parliament of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago and force them into granting us what is our right.

This is not about Trinidad

giving us something. This is about us, we the people of Tobago demanding what is ours from the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago. So, this is the process we must all get behind, interest groups get behind this process; individuals get behind this process; academics get behind this process; independent thinkers get behind this process; all of Tobago must get behind this process which will mean that when the JSC (Joint Select Committee) starts it work. Tobagonians must be going there in droves by virtue of interest groups or individual acclaim and making their position clear,

UNREVISED

(1)

We must get greater autonomy now; and

(2)

Here are what we like and what we doh like.

The second thing we must understand is that to get this, it requires a measure of politicking. So this we cannot by virtue of this House, this we can only get by virtue of forty-one (41) Members of Parliament, only two (2) of which were elected from Tobago. Then, we also have Tobagonian

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE (Cont’d)

Senator in the mix when we consider the both Houses, so we are outnumbered. The reality is, we have more Tobagonians living in Trinidad than living on the island of Tobago. They are point of influence for us too.

So Tobagonians must pick up the phone and call their auntie and their nenen whoever living in Trinidad, who always want fish and want you to send down dry fish and benne ball for them and let them know they too must get behind this process and support greater autonomy for Tobago. They have a role to play our diaspora has a role to play. We must bear influence on those who sit in the House and we must use all channels; back channels; middle channels; to ensure that this is past. This is what real politics is about. It is about negotiating space; it is about negotiating ideas; it is about comprise here a little here, a little there and being strategic.

UNREVISED

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

That is one of the reasons why we are also supporting this Motion because having a Special Committee of this House allows us to be strategic, it allows us to mobilize Tobagonians as one united force - the both sides, I agree.

We do not agree on everything in the Bill. We do not share the same political philosophies on everything in the Bill. There are some changes we will like to see and there are changes the other side will like to see. But one thing we must demonstrate to Tobagonians is that we are big enough to push the idea of Internal Self-Government together and that is why we are behind this Motion. But why must Tobagonians support this at this time?

UNREVISED

The speaker before, the Leader of Assembly Business spoke to perhaps the apathy that exist among some people those who have fearful, those who are timid, those who have given up.

I agree Tobagonians might

be battle-worry at this time – “Since ah born wih talking about Internal SelfGovernment is all I heard growing up, it has been in every Tobago political campaign from since we were an independent country.”

Every Political

campaign on this island explores the concept of greater autonomy. So, of course, people are weary perhaps fed up hearing it, perhaps saying, “stueps,” waste of time, perhaps saying not now, things not so good why now? But if not now when?

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

This country did not have it altogether when we became independent and if we have to use that logic of us not being ready then Trinidad and Tobago should still be part of the Crown Colony. We should not be a Republic we should not even have been Independent. But you could never ever be one hundred percent (100%) ready to walk out on your own. You look at a little child who is starting to walk, trying at some point that child will fall while learning to walk but it is all a part of the growing pace and so Tobagonians must fearlessly embrace this process because we have to take these steps now, we have to do it now. The truth is, I do not know if I might even live to see it. I could go to bed tonight and not wake tomorrow.

UNREVISED

MR. W. DUKE: God forbid!

MR. F. AUGUSTINE: God forbid! So this Bill is not even about me and the fact that I am a part of the Chamber at this time. In fact, it is not about any of us in here but this Bill really is about the future of Tobago and who knows what the future holds?

I will like to see a future Tobago that governs itself

in a more real way.

Tobagonians must support this because in having Internal SelfGovernment or by devolving greater powers to the Tobago House of Assembly we get a chance to entrench our cultural heritage. The truth is, the Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

culture of Tobago is not shared by anywhere else in this Republic – nowhere else. Tobago is unique and Tobago is Tobago.

In fact, Political Scientist have always opined that we have three (3) political cultures in the country - three (3) political tribes, one East Indian, one African and the other Tobago because Tobago has always been different.

We were just lumped with Trinidad and having our own legislature allows us to frame legislation, to frame policies in keeping with our cultural traditions.

UNREVISED

Secondly, it allows us also to bring governance closer to the people and the thing is, this Bill is meant to achieve Goals (9) and (16) of the Sustainable Development goals. Goal (9) is about Industry, Innovation and Infrastructure.

Goal (16) is about Peace and Justice, strong Institutions and by devolving powers to a Tobago Legislature a Tobago Parliament as it would be then we are essentially bringing governance even closer to the doorsteps of Tobagonians.

We heard in the last General Election the Prime Minister, Dr. Keith Rowley talk about making the Borough Corporations like the THA (Tobago House of Assembly) and the reason for that is because we in fighting for devolved powers we have led the way in terms of how our democracy ought to work. Governance must be closer to the people.

Having governance

closer Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

to the people will also mean that we can treat with unique challenges here in Tobago.

Take for instance, the proposed Marine Park where I live in Speyside, that was proposed since Mr. Hilton Sandy was a Secretary in this House but has never been done, action why because we needed and we were depending

UNREVISED

on a Parliament in Trinidad to carry out the decree. If we have the powers now, we can do it ourselves and something as simple as that, that we often take for granted and that we worry and we argue over we can get it done which leads to the advantage of there being efficiency in the system.

By devolving powers to a Tobago Parliament or having Internal SelfGovernment it will also lead to us having a different set of politics. And the Minority Leader spoke about this concept of a People’s House that is in the Bill and having a different set of different style of politics allows for greater participation in our democracy. Because the idea is, that if we devolve powers to the local body then you can get more people involved in Governance, people would have easier access to those who are elected, or appointed or nominated and we will have decision-making that will really impact the everyday lives of people.

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

If we had devolved powers then yes, we perhaps could have passed a law about Styrofoam and we could have had broad-sweeping recycling plans but perhaps if we had devolved powers we could have already treated with the bottlenecks in our Public Service and treating with the contracted educators we have in the system. Not only does it allow for Politics at that level but it UNREVISED

also allows for Political Parties to change. Because by devolving powers this much it will mean that even if yuh Party (like yours) have a Branch in Trinidad the Tobago branch will be forced to be different and to represent different ideals.

So, if you look at the relationship between the Scottish and those outer Westminster and even sometimes when the Labour Party might represent areas in Scotland the Labour Party MPs from the Scotland area they go to the Parliament at West Minster and they advocate for Scotland differently to the rest of their Party. Because what it now does, it forces every Party operating on this Island to be more Tobago centric and that is important. It allows for different policies to develop within the Parties.

Mr. Presiding Officer, yes, as I said, we have issues with the Bill as it is and we supporting this Motion does not negate our right and our ability to persecute certain issues before the Joint Select Committee. Yes, we can and

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

yes, we will. We have issues with the eleven (11) miles because the Bill as it is laid only gives us jurisdiction in terms of eleven (11) miles between Trinidad and Tobago and not even eleven (11) miles around Tobago. So we have issues with that and that has to be addressed.

UNREVISED

Yes, we think Trinidad must also be defined in this Bill. We also have issues with how the People’s House will work and the practicality of it all and how we capture all the necessary interest groups and it being a true People’s House.

Yes, we want to take a closer look at the Fiscal Review Commission that is also in this Bill and what that means.

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE (Cont’d)

Yes, we also feel that there must be a mechanism in this Bill and to treat with disputes, such the DRC (Dispute Resolution Commission) that is existent in the current Bill, or the current arrangement. So we have issues and they are many more. I know that there are Tobagonians out there who will read this Bill and find challenges, but finding an issue and challenge

UNREVISED

with the Bill should not prompt you to say “no” in total. In fact, it should prompt you to engage in the process. Let us engaged the process. I could tell you this! Any autonomy greater than what we now have, is better than what we now have.

That is the reality! If we could get something better

than what we got in 1996, it may not be perfectly what we want, but once it is better than 1996, once they are safeguards against abuses, then we must get behind the process. All of us! All of Tobago! I want to caution Tobagonians that it is very rare that lightening will strike twice in the same place. In fact, they said it never happens. Between 2013 and now, we are having our second opportunity. This second opportunity is being brought to the Parliament by the Party that was opposition in 2013. So, essentially within that period between 2013 and now, we would have had the two (2) major Parties in Trinidad bringing Bills to the Parliament to treat with greater autonomy for Tobago. If this does not pass now, the likelihood of any of those two (2) major Parties bringing another Bill to the Parliament

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE (Cont’d)

anytime soon, would be slim to none. So this perhaps as it is might be our last best shot for a while, let us give it our best shot.

Now, there is no need to celebrate just yet, because we do not have it yet. This Bill requires Special Majority in Trinidad. We must always be caution to “never count eggs in fowl bumsy”, wait until it comes out to UNREVISED

count it. If you would feed the chickens well, chances are you would get eggs. So we must engage the process.

I want to close by expanding on the analogy used by the Leader of Assembly Business. He spoke about being in his father’s house, now having his own space, but being under the same roof. I wish to propose a diversion from that. What we have now, is a case where we were living upstairs with the parents and they tell us, “You could move in downstairs and take charge of downstairs”. But not because you move in downstairs it means that you could go and paint the downstairs what colour you want, because your mother still decides on how she wants the house to be coloured and decorated, because you are still essentially in the same house. What the father has said now is, “There is a piece of land right next door, right behind the house, go and build there you are very close to us, build side by side with us, in that way if you want to paint your house black and perhaps Tobago

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE (Cont’d)

will, you can paint the house black”. Now, although you are on family land and the family owns the entire estate, you have your own house on the same estate alongside those of your parents. I wanted to expand the analogy to say that, what this Bill is proposing we do, is that Tobago moves out from the downstairs of Trinidad and set up shop side by side with Trinidad so that we could now, truly when we sing the National Anthem, it will have real and UNREVISED

practical meaning for us in Tobago.

It would not mean one being

subservient to the other; it would not mean one culture being subsumed by the other; it would not mean that every time this country talks business and trade they talk manufacturing, but do not talk as much about tourism. It would mean that we would have greater and a far more equal say.

Finally, let me caution everyone in this House. Now, I am not talking to Tobagonians but to people in this House. We do not know who will be blessed to first lead under a new regime. I am cautioning everyone by saying, that whatsoever we do, all of us in this House, let us do it well, do it to the best of our abilities; do it honestly with a measure of genuineness and do it with the interest of Tobagonians, because Tobagonians desire the best from all of us. We are not just asking them to get behind this process but we are also asking them to get behind us as we lead this process. If we are asking them to get behind us as we lead this process, we must go into this

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE (Cont’d)

process with, “honesty and genuineness”. We must actively and genuinely mean it when we say that we are going to have a Special Committee and we are going to work together towards pushing for this; towards influencing the nation and influencing this island into supporting this process. God has given us this privilege (it is a privilege, it is not a right) to lead this process, and to go before Trinidad through whatever avenues to say, “We have come for what is ours”. Let us go and get it.

UNREVISED

Mr. Chief Secretary, I echo the call of the Minority Leader, you must man-up and lead the charge because for good, or for bad, and these days I am thinking it is more bad than good. You are the Chief Secretary, and therefore, as long as you are the Chief Secretary, the Minority is giving you a “Promissory Note” that we would join you and we will call on the rest of Tobagonians to join you as we go to Trinidad to get what is ours. But I am cautioning you Mr. Chief Secretary, be honest, be genuine with Tobagonians; be fair in your approach and ensure you get what Tobagonians want, what they desire. We cannot get everything, but what you cannot get, be man enough to come back to Tobagonians and say, “Look, we cannot get this this time, this is all we could get this time”. Let this be the opening of a conversation a kind of Government to people conversation as never before

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) MR. F. AUGUSTINE (Cont’d)

seen on this island, and you Mr. Chief Secretary, you must lead this charge.

We are giving you a “Promissory Note” that we will follow and we will walk side by side with you, so long as this is the process we are going to engage and so long as we are going to engage this process fairly and in all honesty.

I thank you, Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer. [Desk thumping]

UNREVISED

MR. DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER: Chief Secretary.

HON. CHIEF SECRETARY: [Desk thumping] Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer.

It is interesting Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, to have listened to the two (2) speakers on the Minority side. In one instance, we got a bit of flamboyance and theatre.

I was wondering whether I was looking at

Winston Duke [Laughter] [Desk thumping] because I thought I read somewhere where some of us intended to take acting lessons. [Desk thumping] On the other hand, I got a very sober presentation.

I want to

commend the Member for his very sober presentation. [Desk thumping] I want to give the Minority the assurance that this gentleman, once he takes up a responsibility, he executes that responsibility fearlessly. [Desk thumping]

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d)

I am sure the Member is fully aware of that. [Laughter] [Desk thumping] Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, but even before I proceed, I have on a previous occasion, I think two (2), given some advice to the Minority Leader but he does not seem to want to listen to me. Again, for the records, I say to the Minority Leader, “Keep your voice soft and sweet so that you would not

UNREVISED

have to eat your words.” [Desk thumping]

Therein lies the difference he

threw picongs at me Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, and I took it like a man.

[Desk thumping] [Laughter] There was absolutely no crosstalk from me.

[Laughter] But as I here respond to some of the issues, I would say that our styles may be different and I believe in the injunction, “He that humbleth himself shall be exalted.” They are a religious people in the main and I can assure you that they do understand the content of a statement like that.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, as part of the demonstration of goodwill the records will show that before we place this Motion before this Honourable House, I called the Minority Leader and indicated to him what our intention was and whether he and his team was prepared to support us.

That represented a clear and overt demonstration of a positive intent. It went further, it demonstrated the quality of leadership [Desk thumping] that I could have humble enough to call the Minority Leader and say, “Listen, this is what I proposed to do are you with us on this?” I asked for a clearer demonstration of humility and leadership. More than that, I said to the Minority Leader, Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY

(Cont’d)

“Listen, a Bill has been laid in the Parliament, it is now public document and before the Forum speaks to any other group, the Forum is prepared to speak with you and your team and therefore, will outline to you, what are the areas of difference that exist in that Bill that was tabled in Parliament.” We did

UNREVISED

meet earlier this week and we shared with the Minority the Forum’s views and in fact, I did indicate to the Minority that there were some elements in the Bill laid in Parliament with which we do not agree and that I had already taken the step to write to the Honourable Prime Minister, indicating those areas of disagreement as far as the Forum was concerned and signalling that we reserve the right to prosecute our case on those matters before the Joint Select Committee. [Desk thumping] MR. W. DUKE: Give me a copy of the letter.

HON. CHIEF SECRETARY: I refuse to be tempted. [Laughter] As I did indicate I think some time ago even in this Honourable House, when I was a teenager I used to take basket. [Laughter] Having lived the length of time that I have, I demonstrate a greater sense of maturity. [Laughter] Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, for the records, the Minority Leader did refer to a report of a Commission. A Commission that was set up by the Forum. Because what the Forum did, the Forum recognized that there were many previous attempts and that there was a body of work that ought to be Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY

(Cont’d)

considered as part of the conversation going forward. Therefore, the Forum established a Commission and these were the Members of the Commission:  Mr. Allan Richards as Convenor.

UNREVISED

Interestingly, Mr. Allan Richards is an independent Member of the Forum.

MR. W. DUKE: Independent?

HON. CHIEF SECRETARY: Would the Minority demonstrate today at least, the kind of rapprochement that we are trying to develop. [Laughter]  Dr. Vernon Alleyne – Member;  Mrs. Deborah Moore-Miggins – Member; and whom we would have spoken to on a number of occasions since.  Mr. Gilbert Peterson, Senior Counsel.

He was the individual who provided advice to the Forum and in fact produced the drafts which would have been later sanitized and cleaned up in respect of legal drafting expertise.

So having said that, the Report of the Commission in a sense really represented a survey of all the views that went before and pulled out those areas that appeared to be a commonality of ideas. That then formed the basis for the series of conversations and discussions and consultations that I spoke Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY

(Cont’d)

about earlier and the instruction was, this is a based document, be free to agree or disagree with any or all of the main points in the Commission’s report. I UNREVISED

needed to place that on record if only to provide perspective and context. So that what would have emerged subsequently would have been an analysis, an assessment, a cissexist if you wish of that document along with views, other views expressed by different interest groups and persons as the consultations evolved.

In other words, participants were urged to feel free to accept or

reject any of the Commission’s recommendations or suggestions.

Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, one of the challenges that exist is that having come to this place, where there is a Bill before the Parliament and there are some issues with which we disagree but what would have been submitted to the Cabinet would have represented a broad consensus of the views of those who attended the various discussions and consultations and who would have written in their views etcetera.

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d)

UNREVISED

I therefore, as Chief Secretary, because I have my own views on a number of the issues contained therein. In fact, like the Minority Leader, I would prefer not necessarily in name, but the concept of the Senate and how the Senate is configured. But the predominant view that came out in the consultation, was for a Chamber and of course the name can change because people grappled with the name, I can tell you, that was essentially an elected House, rather than as the Senate now exists in many places as a nominated House.

It was all because the view was, that persons who intend to sit at that other Chamber must be there at the will of the people. That was not my view, but that was the prevailing view of a number of persons who commented on the Commission’s Report and therein lies the challenge. The Chief Secretary really represents the person who must prosecute the case, a case that would have been fashioned from all the conversations at the level of the Joint Select Committee. As the Member for Parlatuvier indicated, “This is not about me” as he said it is not about him, but it is about what the people in the main are asking for. I think that I would have betrayed the process to this point if I were to just abandon the views, the consensual views expressed at those discussions and consultations. That notwithstanding, to the extent that there is a high level unanimity, to that extent I give the assurance to this House and to the people of Tobago that

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d)

UNREVISED

those are the views that I would prosecute. But as was pointed out very clearly, persons have a chance if they feel strongly about particular issues to raise those issues either in writing or personally before the Joint Select Committee.

A very fundamental point was made by the Member for Parlatuvier, when he indicated that notwithstanding whatever we say or do, if we are unable to persuade a sufficient number of persons in the Parliament of Trinidad and Tobago, then we would be in trouble. I do not have to indicate to anyone in this House the nature of the Parliament at this time and the challenges that obviously lie ahead for this Bill. Whilst he made the point and I agree that the two (2) main Administrations or Political Parties, have in fact taken the position that Tobago is desirous and indeed Tobago deserves greater autonomy, we have seen flip-flopping on many matters. Therefore, it underscores very forcefully, the need for us to cohere to stick together and to demonstrate the kind of unity that would have eluded us for many years.

I also want Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, and again, I must refer to the sobriety of the contribution of the Member of Parlatuvier, because when he indicated that “anything better than what we have now is better than what we have now”. I know over time he would become a proficient philosopher,

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d)

UNREVISED

but I will take that for now. I agree… [Crosstalk] even if I did not say it word for word, I express the sentiments and I am saying that I understand your thrust into the arena of philosophy and I am also saying that you would get better with.

Many of us talk glibly at this time about the Fifth Schedule under Act 40 of 1996, but I tell you Mr. Deputy Presiding Officer, that the stark reality was made plain as day on June 10, 2015, by Madame Justice Nadia Kangaloo in the matter of the Construction of Section 25 of the Tobago House of Assembly Act, together with the Fifth Schedule thereto in relation to Section 75 of the Constitution between the Tobago House of Assembly and the Attorney General of Trinidad and Tobago. On Page 19 of that Judgment it reads: “The Court has accordingly asked itself the question, are there any powers given to the Tobago House of Assembly under the THA Act 1996 to the exclusion of the general powers given to Cabinet?

On Page 22 it reads:

as

The court finds that the answer to this on a plain reading of Section 25 (1) of the Act when reading the THA Act 1996 a whole is, “No”.

Request to Support the Current Process of Self Government for Tobago (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d)

UNREVISED

It goes further, it says: Section 25 (1) in its plain and ordinary meaning means that any responsibility given to the Tobago House of Assembly pursuant to Section 25 (1) of the Act must be subject to the overriding and overarching national policy directives of the Cabinet of the government of Trinidad and Tobago.�

So a very cynical Central Government can by the stroke of a pen, policy pen; emasculate any seeming power that we think we may have in Tobago.

Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d)

UNREVISED

HON. CHIEF SECRETARY

(Cont’d)

That view is further reinforced by a further reading of the Judgement says: “Section 25 (1) gives the Tobago House of Assembly responsibility to implement policies that are consistent with that of the Government in instances where the Government already has a policy in place.

That the Act does not give the Tobago House of Assembly responsibility to formulate and or implement policy in respect of matters set out in the fifth schedule to the Act which may frustrate or hamper the implementation of government policy.”

This is not Kelvin Charles talking, all I am doing is reading the Judgement of Madame Justice Kangaloo.

Therefore, it behoves us to understand that we have a golden opportunity to ensure that we get it right this time. That is why I reached across the isle Minority Leader. [Laughter] That is why I called you on the phone, I did not have to swim eh, I called you on the phone – technology and brought you on to the same page.

So, I look forward and I am indeed grateful and those on this side we are indeed grateful for the promise of collaboration and the outstretch of the hand that is being proffered or offered by the Minority.

I say to the

Minority, to this House and to the people of Tobago that I am prepared to work diligently with the Minority as I lead the Forum of Political Parties seeking to organize and mobilize public support for at least the maintenance of the Bill so that the Request to Support the Current Process of Self-Government for Tobago (Cont’d) UNREVISED

HON. CHIEF SECRETARY

(Cont’d)

people of Tobago can move one (1) step closer in realizing their hopes and their dreams.

I thank you. [Desk thumping] Question put and agreed to. [Desk thumping] MR. DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER: This Motion is carried.

ADJOURNMENT Motion made: That the House do now adjourn to a date to be fixed.

[Hon. K. Des Vignes] Question put and agreed to.

House adjourned accordingly.

Adjourned at 3.57 p.m.

UNREVISED