Unrevised Hansard 24th Plenary Sitting Tobago House of Assembly 2017 – 2021

0

Unrevised Hansard 24th Plenary Sitting Tobago House of Assembly 2017 – 2021 Thursday, March 28, 2019

1 Announcements TOBAGO HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY THURSDAY, MARCH 28, 2019

The House met at 1.38 p.m.

PRAYERS [MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER in the Chair] ANNOUNCEMENTS SECONDARY ENTRANCE ASSESSMENT EXAMINATION

MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER: In just about a week, the students of this country will take the Secondary Entrance Assessment (SEA) Examination. Therefore, on behalf of the Honourable Members and on my own, I am extending best wishes to all the children across the island.

We believe in you and we are praying for your success. Children and parents, I want you to remember that at the end of the day, it is said that there is success and there is learning. Regardless of the outcome, look at it in a positive light. Remember that education is not just about taking examinations, but more so about the commitment to learning that is an

Announcements (Cont’d)

2 MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER

(Cont’d)

essential tool for consistently making the right and reasonable choices which is a building block of strong democracies and effective Parliaments.

GREETINGS

Let me also take this opportunity to extend greetings on the upcoming Spiritual Baptist Liberation Day; and also to welcome those visitors to the public gallery; including the Members of Youth Councils of Schools across the island.

MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER:

Secretary of Finance and the

Economy.

PAPERS LAID

(i)

Tobago House of Assembly Monthly Budget Report as at the end of February, 2019. [Secretary of Finance and the Economy (Assemblyman. Joel Jack)].

PRIVATE BUSINESS MOTION

3

TOBAGO CARNIVAL

MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER: Minority Leader.

MR. WATSON DUKE [Minority Leader]: [Desk thumping] Madam Presiding Officer, thank you for the opportunity to speak on behalf of the people of Tobago - a wonderful people; an illustrious people; a people with an indomitable will.

MINORITY LEADER’S OFFICE

I also take this opportunity to reach across the corridor and say hello to my Colleague, Member for Black Rock/Whim/Spring Garden. Indeed, I must say I salute him today, on one thing only, after that, it will be political licks. [Laughter] I think he has made good on his promise of providing us with an adequate office; one that does not requires an elevator, one that could satisfy the needs of even those who are differently-abled; those on crutches; those on wheel chairs. I say that is the way that we want to go because the Minority Leader’s Office is an Office that welcomes all.

I also want to say thanks to him for also depoliticizing the Minority Leader’s Office by moving it, by the contemplation and I believe the Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d)

4 subsequent move, to have it moved from under the Office of the Chief Secretary or the Executive Council to that high and mighty plane, neutral plain, called, “The Assembly Legislature”. So I salute you because I recognize that you are moving in the right direction. However, I say to you, we have only one (1) year nine (9) months and a few days in that Office, for that we are happy.

Madam Presiding Officer, I move on without much further ado to say that it is with great pride, again I stand here to put before this Honourable House, a Motion that lends itself to that which we have been speaking about for all times. The right for Tobago people or populace to decide which direction it wants to go. We are talking self-determination; it is a plug in that direction.

The Motion reads:

“WHEREAS the development of Tobago’s indigenous cultural expressions is critical for the socio-economic development of the island; AND WHEREAS the development of these cultural expressions is also critical for maintaining the identity of Tobago within the context of a sometimes complimentary national culture and at other times a competing larger “Trini” culture; Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d)

5 AND WHEREAS the annual pre-lent national carnival celebrations forms part of both our indigenous and national culture; AND WHEREAS over the years participation in some of the island’s carnival celebrations has arguably been extremely poor; BE IT RESOLVED that the Tobago House of Assembly allow communities that host carnival activities to find ways to re-invent the Tobago carnival celebrations and to properly manage the budgeted resources for the festival so as to attract a larger participation; BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Tobago House of Assembly over the next six months rethink a formerly held Executive Council decision that Tobago will not have a second carnival, and will instead meet with various stakeholders including those that now hold the Tobago Fest to ascertain feasibility and subsequent actions.”

I intend not to be long with this Motion today, but I can go long, based on the opposition I received from the other side, but I tell by the number of Speakers that they have presented to speak that this is a fait accompli they agree with the Motion. I want to say kudos to you all for being “magnanimous”. That is a favourite word from that side across there, being big, accepting the fact that if we as Tobagonians, we as the THA

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d)

6 (Tobago House of Assembly), we are now seeking greater autonomy; the right to self-determination; it means that our culture; our artistry; in whatever form it presents itself must be given that opportunity to resemble Tobago and to become Tobago. We must own the thing because we have invented it by our own thoughts, aspirations, efforts, etcetera.

Madam Presiding Officer, I will go back to the – and I am being disturbed by the other side. I do not know what they were not talking before but all of a sudden I give them compliments and they get excited. [Interruption] Thank you Madam Presiding Officer, for coming to my aid. I am tempted to go longer now. The year was 1780, when the French colonials inter …

[Interruption] Madam Presiding Officer, is that the behaviour I have to contend with?

MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER: Secretary of Finance could you please give way to the Mover of the Motion to complete? You will have your turn at the end.

MR. W. DUKE: You will have your turn, but not today. Tobago was introduced to Carnival in 1780 by the French upper class who created Carnival with a series of festivities that would have started after the

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d)

7 Christmas season. It was not for the small man but it was nevertheless a period of expression.

After 1833, the abolition of slavery, the slaves, the working class, the people who were now regarded as Tobagonians took to the streets and they began to celebrate this Carnival period in a way that was never celebrated, because now it was not limited to the upper class, the bourgeoisie class but it came down to the grass roots, the man in the streets, and I want us to mark that point. That was Tobago. They began to sing calypso in their own way about things that was critically important to them and they couched the language in a manner that sometimes disguised the true intent of their message introducing the plural meaning to kaiso.

Then in 1889, Tobago was forced to join Trinidad and they became a ward of Trinidad. Indeed, that took on its own benefits but it had its own drawbacks. One of it was that we would begin to lose our culture, our real identity over the ensuing years because of “big sister” Trinidad almost foisting upon Tobago its own culture, its own direction and it was determined for us the type of financing that was available for a number of activities on the island. Carnival nonetheless has evolved from the 1780s, Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d)

8 the 1830s, after slavery was abolished to now being something that is world class in nature, something that people travel all over the world to experience. There are a number of Carnival that takes place around the world at the same time. The pre-Lentin season and I happened to see carnival like that in Brazil and recently France. One thing I recognize is, it is a time when tourist travel to look at Carnival and engage in playing mas.

Madam Presiding Officer, it brings me to a point in 2012 that was the year we would have had the then Minister of Culture, Mr. Winston “Gypsy” Peters - mark that name. Sometimes it is a cycle, sometimes it is a circle, it goes around one way and it come and hits you the other way.

He suggested that Tobago should have its own Carnival not to take away from the Trinidad and Tobago carnival but to accentuate Tobago’s individuality, Tobago’s creativeness and Tobago’s ability to earn money and attract visitors on its own. Sad to say the PNM executive then led by former Chief Secretary Orville London, they refused to take the opportunity for Tobago to determine its own pathway culturally on such an important event. They refused - 2019 Mr. Winston “Gypsy” Peters has found himself now playing a pivotal role in carnival again and the discussion has arisen again whereby Tobago should Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d)

9

hold its own carnival. And as if we on this side, the Minority side have taken a rather urgent position as the old people would say, “a stitch in time to save nine” position, and we have brought this Bill to the Table having just completed Carnival 2019, to say to this Honourable House, it is something worth considering.

Based on the mathematical formula, I will say to you it is believed that Tobago would have made about four million dollars ($4m) from Carnival, it is believed based on the formula I am seeing here. Madam Presiding Officer, our Carnival is something that belong to us. It is the freedom of expression just as the people in Paramin Hill, Maraval. They were the ones who came out with the blue devil – they are best known for blue devil; just as the people in Grenada, is known for jab jab, just as the people in Port of Spain, they are famous for pretty mas because even though San Fernando has pretty mas, Port of Spain has the prettiest of mases. We believe that Tobago has something to offer but we cannot offer it if people are not involved. This is one of the main points we wish to leave with our Colleagues on the other side. In order for Carnival to take that stage of prominence, or to attract even persons from Tobago, we have to give it a Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d)

10 space, a decent space and allow persons who are interested to participate in inventing it. I recall the words of Tobago Festival Executive Chairman, Mr. George Leacock in a Facebook post on March 2, 2019 and I quote: “Four (4) more days of pretending to like Carnival because everybody else doing it. Push, push, push you can make it.”

Loaded! Those words are loaded by the chairman. “Pretending to like carnival, push, push, push.” It is a clear indication of a lack of enthusiasm when it comes to planning Tobago Carnival. We want to juxtaposition that against the Heritage Festival for which there is no lack of motivation.

Why? Because the communities are heavily involved in planning it.

I am quite aware, that the District of the Assemblyman Watson Duke has been sabotaged with Carnival this year. Imagine Carnival came, ended, we are now looking at Easter and the prizes for that Windward Carnival is yet to be given out. Abuse of power; abuse of authority; furthering the demise of the Carnival spirit that once existed in that Windward District.

People now are saying, “What is the sense playing mas?” Why engage in Carnival again? You play; you win, why not award you the prize? What could be taking you so long? This is the thing that kills our carnival.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d)

11 It is also noted that even the prizes between 2012 and 2016 were basically constant, but with the new PNM Administration, the prizes went down in the East. They went down! It is ridiculous; it is uninviting; and I would say it is unpalatable to even think about first prize; second prize and third prize in some of those competitions.

Madam Presiding Officer, today we wish to challenge the PNM Executive, to let us have more discussions on having participation within those communities where carnival is to be hosted. We wish to say to them the time has come for us to kill this segregation and separation of our people by having J’ouvert in Roxborough; Scarborough; and then Crown Point. It is time that we have one big J’ouvert, and I am suggesting Roxborough. One big J’ouvert in Roxborough! They could compete, they could put other things in Scarborough and put something in Crown Point if they want to play mas down there, but they are diluting the thing, to a place where it is no longer tasty. People but no spectators; more people than spectators.

I also wish to say that this is an opportunity to brainstorm using the wider international community. I told you carnival does not get less in places like, Rio Janeiro; Venice and other places where they keep carnival. It Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d)

12 improves every year. It is something people look forward to, and they do not have calypso music; they do not have soca. What they have is consistency; what they have is proper planning; what they have is their own culture that they put forward.

It is time that the THA engage the private sector those people who are planning Tobago Fest, in the planning of our carnival. It is time that all mas bands; all Calypsonians; would become part of that stakeholders meeting as we forge our way forward for a better carnival. It is time to stop fighting TUCO (Trinbago Unified Calypsonian Organization); it is stop fighting the mass man and embrace everybody. This is our culture, it is our thing.

So in closing, as I said I would not be long, I wish to say: BE IT RESOLVED that the Tobago House of Assembly allow communities to host carnival activities to find ways to reinvent the Tobago Carnival celebrations and to properly manage the budgeted resources for the festival so as to attract a larger participation; BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Tobago House of Assembly over the next six months rethink a formerly held Executive Council decision that Tobago will not have a second carnival, and will instead meet with various stakeholders including those that now hold the Tobago Fest to ascertain feasibility and subsequent actions.”

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d)

13 Madam Presiding Officer, I therefore thank you as I place this Motion on the table. [Desk thumping] Question proposed.

MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER: Secretary of Tourism, Culture and Transportation, Councillor Nadine Stewart-Phillips.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) SECRETARY

OF

TOURISM,

CULTURE

AND

TRANSPORTATION [Hon. Nadine Stewart-Phillips): [Desk thumping] I thank you Madam Presiding Officer, for the opportunity to contribute to yet another debate. I intend to jump right into the Motion, as I do not intend to be very long, as the Motion does not require much. However, there are some things that must be placed on record.

Madam Presiding Officer, I want to start because it is kind of difficult coming in after the Minority Leader and more so difficult because this was his Motion. So, I was listening and waiting for the facts that would support his Motion as piloted. I was looking forward to at least on this occasion, sensible banter - at least today. I was looking forward to that today. Madam Presiding Officer, but I guess you can never expect too Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR N. STEWART-PHILLIPS

(Cont’d)

14 much from the Representative for Roxborough/Delaford, who in my view thinks that the only way to get your point across is, by shouting and screaming and rambling with no real information. So you pilot a Motion, you present your Motion, but in your opening salvo, there is no facts.

You do not set the tone for the debate. Madam Presiding Officer, so I would attempt to do that now. [Desk thumping] I wish to state from the onset, I heard the Minority Leader purporting that we are supporting the Motion, but let me state that we will not support the Motion as it is currently written and will propose the suitable amendment at the end of my discourse.

Now, I want to start with the Motion as it is outlined. The fourth WHEREAS reads: “Over the years participation in some of the island’s carnival celebrations has arguably been extremely poor”; and I cannot and would not agree with the words, “extremely poor”, Madam Presiding Officer. I would say however, that the low levels of participation could be attributed to a number of factors, mainly the lack of buy-in from primary stakeholders; probably insufficient injections; or the perception that carnival promotes immoral behaviour. We cannot even in considering a second carnival and the stakeholders. I heard the Minority Leader mentioning the stakeholders as the mas people and as the calypsonians, but what about the Christian community.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR N. STEWART-PHILLIPS

(Cont’d)

15 Madam Presiding Officer, so we must understand, that due to the small population size that is Tobago and the fact that communities are getting much more engaged in carnival what we have really seen is a geographic shift in participation from the central location in Scarborough to other communities such as Roxborough J’ouvert; we have the Crown Point J’ouvert as well, so the interest as it were in the past in the Scarborough J’ouvert may not still be there for some persons. We have the Calder Hall J’ouvert as well that occurs on Carnival Tuesday morning which attracts a large turnout of participants and these have presented more options for participation. The communities of Crown Point and Calder Hall on their own have been able to reinvent Carnival celebrations and the Minority Leader is asking for us to give communities the opportunity to reinvent.

Here we have the community of Calder Hall and Crown Point that have already gone ahead and re-inventing. The Minority Leader seems to also be contradictory in his presentation. I am pretty sure I heard the Minority Leader saying take it from all the communities and carry it into Roxborough but he is asking us to give communities the opportunity to re-invent. So, I guess in his wrap up he could probably sort that out.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR N. STEWART-PHILLIPS

(Cont’d)

16 Madam Presiding Officer, Carnival as you are aware, is a major aspect of our culture since it epitomizes our creations, dance, music, pageantry and exuberant celebrations.

Madam Presiding Officer, might I add that Trinidad’s Carnival has become the signature event in the country’s cultural calendar with Tobago attracting persons seeking a slower type pace of festivities as well as those seeking a vocation experience. What is required for us to differentiate our carnival product offering is by creating a unique selling point where by we preserve the traditional aspects of our carnival and market that to the world and of course to the new generation. Although we are discussing a second carnival we have to also consider ways in which we can improve our pre-lent national carnival as well. This talk of Tobago Carnival is definitely not a new one. As a matter of fact, I am aware of a Strategic Planning Report completed in 2009 and a Committee Report of 2011. The Minority Leader indicated that Winston “Gypsy” Peters in 2012 started this conversation of a Tobago Carnival but, if there were a report in 2011 it means that discussion started here in Tobago, and not by Mr. Winston “Gypsy” Peters as the Minority Leader indicated.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR N. STEWART-PHILLIPS

(Cont’d)

17

Madam Presiding Officer, if I just read into the record some of the recommendations of the Strategic Planning Report of 2009.

It

recommended: “A new vision and a set of core values aimed at re-invigorating the festival. The mission calls for all stakeholders to invest in, to advocate for and develop the carnival arts and creativity so that they impact positively on the cultural, social and economic well-being of all communities in Tobago.

The report further suggested: Core values to support this new mission, community development celebration of Tobago’s distinctive culture and entertainment for all.

Madam Presiding Officer, it is clear that in considering a second carnival there must be greater input and greater collaborations from the private sector. The development of carnivals on the islands are largely led and largely funded by private sector and the key carnival industry players. If as the Tobago House of Assembly, we plant the seed, then the strengthening of the system or of the stem, it must be two-fold. The branches, the leaves and the fruits will only come to bear one hundred

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR N. STEWART-PHILLIPS

(Cont’d)

18

percent (100%) effort from the stakeholders in the private and creative sectors.

Madam Presiding Officer, as outlined in the second Carnival Report report of 2011: The committee recommended that in order for a second carnival to be successful the following characteristics must be desirable: 

“The event must be new and must reflect the unique story and flavour of Tobago: mas, pan, calypso, and soca should comprise the major elements of this second carnival or event.



The event must be of high quality providing greater economic momentum for film-induced tourism and other niches in the tourism markets.



Competition should be kept to a minimum but should include an international soca competition as a drawing card for regional and international performers and audiences; an international carnival queen competition; a steel band competition with special prizes for the best Tobago bands playing in the various categories.



A parade of bands competition with bands from outside of Tobago must partner with and register through Tobago-based mas bands ensuring that at least some significant

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR N. STEWART-PHILLIPS

(Cont’d)

19

aspects of mas production take place at the Tobago-base mas camps using a significant number of local …”

Madam Presiding Officer, this committee further recommended that the theme of mas productions by all mas bands must be Tobago centric depicting aspects of Tobago’s natural and cultural heritage. It should also be noted and I am still reading into the record, Recommendations from the report of 2009.  There is a possibility of the following benefits to be derived: 

Economic development for private and stateowned business entities and citizens of Tobago.



Capacity building benefits especially in the areas of festivals managements and cultural products and performances.



A networking opportunity for mas bands and festivals service providers.



Opportunity to showcase Tobago to the worlds



and brand the Bago carnival product.

Stronger positioning of Tobago as a premier cultural tourism destination with a Caribbean region.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR N. STEWART-PHILLIPS

(Cont’d)

20 Madam Presiding Officer, even as we consider the benefits, we must also pay attention to the weaknesses or the cons that were also identified in the strategic report of 2009. 



Madam Presiding Officer, on the socio-cultural end: Dominant

religious

influences

discourage

participation. 

The perception that carnival promotes immoral behaviour amongst the youth.



Some of these same strong social pressures against carnival related activities caused many Tobagonians to go to Trinidad for carnival where they can free up without fear.

On the product development side: 

Not sufficient investment in the carnival product as it relates to event management and promotion.

In the area of security: 

There is a growing sense that carnival encourages fighting and violence among participants.”

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR N. STEWART-PHILLIPS

(Cont’d)

21 So the question of whether Tobago should have a second Carnival requires extensive consultation and as I indicated initially, we are not only speaking about the mas people, those that are directly involved because we have to speak to those that are not involved but are affected as well.

Madam Presiding Officer one of the major questions to be considered as part of the consultation: what is the main aim or objective behind having a second carnival? What format would this carnival take? Are we saying that a second carnival is needed to aid in boosting our tourism thrust thereby developing a product which will increase visitor arrivals and economic activity? Or, are we saying we need a second carnival because every other island is doing it?

Madam Presiding Officer, we definitely agree that the development of Tobago’s indigenous and cultural expressions are critical for the socio economic development of the island. And, therefore, this mission would be a call for all to invest in, advocate for and develop carnival arts and creativity to ensure that it positively impacts the cultural, social and economic well-being of Tobago.

We want the discussion around a second carnival to be seen as the creation of a product. The reality is, as we know that the world has Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR N. STEWART-PHILLIPS

(Cont’d)

22 slowly moved away from white sandy beaches; the world is now looking for activity in order to travel. Today’s tourist travels for a purpose and this is why we see niches like:  Sports;  Food; and  Eco-tourism; taking route all over the world and more recently here in Tobago.

Madam Presiding Officer, so as part of the stakeholder engagement, we envisaged at the end whatever is developed and implemented, it must be a celebration that can compete on an international scale. We need a product that will speak for itself of high quality and of course, predictability. The area surrounding the discussion should be to expand and improve our local talent in Tobago for our work to become popular and showcase to the world.

Madam Presiding Officer, the synergies of this product must be deepened to ensure there is an improved offering to visitors which might include:  All-inclusive packages where hoteliers can offer tickets for events;  Mas costumes; and  Accommodation as one part of a deal.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR N. STEWART-PHILLIPS

(Cont’d)

23 Madam Presiding Officer, this is one of the main reasons why we are saying that that extensive stakeholder input and discussions are critical as well as the buy-in from the business community.

Madam Presiding Officer, so we are opened to this conversation. As a matter of fact, we endeavour to move swiftly to ensure the necessary consultations occur and put all the necessary mechanisms in place to leverage this opportunity once there is consensus at the end of the discussion. The discussion may start with the stakeholders on carnival, but in the end it may not be call, “Carnival”; it may be called a “Music Festival”. It may be called something else, so we are very open going into this conversation.

Madam Presiding Officer, so in closing, I proposed the following amendments.

In the second Whereas, delete, “sometimes complementary and at other times a competing larger “Trini culture”; The new Whereas will read: And Whereas the development of these cultural expressions is also critical for maintaining the identity of Tobago within the context of a national culture; Madam Presiding Officer the third Whereas delete the letter “s” at the end of forms; Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR N. STEWART-PHILLIPS

(Cont’d)

24

The new Whereas will read: And Whereas the annual pre-lent national carnival celebrations form part of both our indigenous and national culture; Madam Presiding Officer, we are deleting the entire sentence in the fourth Whereas: The new Whereas will now read: AND WHEREAS the time is now propitious to consider once again the idea of a second Tobago Carnival; We are deleting the entire sentence at Be it Resolved.

The new Be it Resolved will read: “Be it Resolved that this House supports the collaborative effort between the Division of Tourism Culture and Transportation and the Division of Finance and the Economy to engage a wide cross-section of stakeholders in the Tobago community to ascertain the feasibility of a second carnival and the subsequent actions to be taken.”

Madam Presiding Officer, we further proposed, that the Be it Further Resolved as proposed by the Minority Leader, be deleted. Madam Presiding Officer, I thank you and I beg to move. [Desk thumping] MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER: You made a request?

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d)

25 Amendments seconded, reserving the right to speak at a later stage.

[Hon. Kelvin Charles] [Desk thumping] MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER: Councillor Dr. Faith B.YIsrael.

COUNCILLOR DR. FAITH B.YISRAEL:

Good day Madam

Presiding Officer, good day to the Members of the House and a special good day to the visitors in our gallery and I am particularly pleased to see our students with us here today.

Madam Presiding Officer, I am going to ask you to allow me to be one hundred percent (100%) honest with you and with the people of Tobago.

Honest today, because I am beginning to feel like some of the people who we represent have been saying to me for quite some time; I am beginning to feel like those people that whenever good; really good, or even great contributions are made to the Tobago House of Assembly, they are never really taken on board and they are never really incorporated. Madam Presiding Officer, because of that it is beginning to be, and I will be honest, a little difficult sitting and debating at these sessions. I am beginning like so many others, to feel like if we are continually wasting our time; wasting the people’s time; wasting the Assembly’s time and the resources that is needed to have these debates happen. Madam Presiding Officer, this is for several reasons and it is because we see that the kind of Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR DR. F. B.YISRAEL

(Cont’d)

26

debate that the world expects; the kind of meaningful discussion that is expected at this House seems to not really happen. We have an opportunity to sit and critically look at important issues; important issues that are related to Tobago’s development and we spend quite a bit of time not really doing that, but just almost playing house, is as if this Tobago House of Assembly is a “Doll House” that we are just playing.

Madam Presiding Officer, the second reason is, there is also a feeling that the research; the hard work; the dedication all of those things that are really necessary to bring true and meaningful discussions before this House is wasted. The same way people outside feel that when they say something is working; or it is not working for this reason or for that reason or the other, they are being ignored. One of the things we always do or those of us on the Minority side, is that whenever we have to speak here we post the Motions on line and ask individuals, what do you think about this? We understand that when we speak it is on behalf of those people out there, not necessarily those who are sitting among this horseshoe, but those out there. What we are getting is a level of frustration that I did not expect, and I am honestly feeling it today. I am going to therefore ask, all of us, for us to sit and critically review what we

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d)

27 COUNCILLOR DR. F. B.YISRAEL

(Cont’d)

do here; how we behave here; how we speak here, because what we do here really does affect the lives of the people around us.

Madam Presiding Officer, I am going back specifically to the Motion.

What we are asking for – in fact, what we are begging for is for this Executive Council to pay very special attention to the first resolution of the Motion and that is a request to really allow the communities that have been participating in this thing, that are the ones whom we expect to develop the mas and the ones whom we expect to be a part of the pan sides and the ones who we expect to do those things, for us to really give them an ear, a serious ear to help us who are sitting around this horseshoe, to help us re-invent this thing called Tobago Carnival. Yes, what we are seeing is there has been a shift in certain places and in those areas it really has been, become because the members on the ground, the people, the business communities, the whoever, they have been really taking it on their own shoulders to do something different. Because we are the Tobago House of Assembly (THA) and because we are the ones who primarily fund many of those activities, we should pay special attention and listen to them.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d)

28 COUNCILLOR F. BYISRAEL (Cont’d)

Let me be clear, Madam Presiding Officer by no means am I saying that we should have these token consultation meetings. I think enough of us have been at many of those and we knew after as we were walking in, it may have really just been a waste of time but we still try to, we are still committed, we still want to do it; we know as we are sitting there listening, talking and interacting that it may still be a waste of time. We know after we have left that it is still a waste of time because the next time the Tobago House of Assembly does whatever it is we were just talking about, they still did not take into consideration the very good ideas that were laid on the Table at those meetings.

Madam Presiding Officer, what we are asking for is this concept that is known as participatory democracy. It is a kind of democracy that allows all of the citizens to know deep within their hearts that they are involved at every step when it comes to making a decision, when it comes to managing how that decision is implemented. When it comes to reviewing that decision after it has been implemented.

We no longer want and when I say we, I am speaking on behalf of those out there – no longer want a Tobago where we just elect the politician and we are unable to participate in how our lives are then run until next election, where we get an opportunity to either keep them because they

29 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR F. BYISRAEL (Cont’d) were not too bad or vote them out. Tobago has gotten to the point where we no longer want to wait four (4) or five (5) years for our voices to be heard. Madam Presiding Officer, that is what we are asking for here.

One of the things we have been speaking about is another festival that Tobago continually speaks about is again the upcoming Jazz Festival. We understand that a comprehensive evaluation of it was done but it seems like the Executive Council, not the people of Tobago, paid for that evaluation because we are again moving into another Jazz Festival and we, those of us who pay Value Added Tax (VAT) and those of us who do these things have no idea what that report said. It is ironic that the Councillor who spoke before me would again make mention of another set of reports from 2009 and 2011 pertaining to this same issue that it seems like the People’s National Movement (PNM) led Executive Council are the only people who has seen these reports. Now, granted if we had an opportunity, if Tobago had an opportunity to review, to look at and to critically analyse maybe we would not need to sit here and have this discussion right now.

May I ask Madam Councillor, through you, Madam Presiding Officer, that a copy of those two (2) reports 2009 and 2011 and whatever strategic plan came out of it is made public because I am sure that information can

30 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR F. BYISRAEL (Cont’d) help the people who tried the thing with Tobago Fest last year and those who are again trying it with the Tobago Fest this year. This information should not be secret information. These reports were not done with money that you took out of your pockets for it to be done. [Desk thumping] These were done with taxpayer’s money. We have the right to know what is in those reports and it is sad that today 2019, we are talking about reports that were done in 2009 and 2011 and I cannot say whether any of the recommendations in those reports have been implemented.

Whether it is the second carnival or a regular carnival or anything like.

What are we doing? We are just here again wasting time. Give me an opportunity to explain why this kind of participation is so important for all of us. So important for those of us who are leading. But also important for those who we lead.

When we actively engage communities in problem solving because that is what we are doing, we allow them to shift their paradigm from one of just identifying problems to one where they actively identify solutions.

Therefore, the communities will not spend all the time lambasting us as leaders and saying they do not know what we are doing and this wrong and that wrong and that so because they have been actively involved in finding the solution.

31 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR F. BYISRAEL (Cont’d) Madam Presiding Officer again, when communities are actively engaged in the development of their lives they are also willing and able to participate in activities that they normally would complain about or normally would make fuss about. For example, every year we hear about the Budgets decreasing for everything and every time you hear about the budget decreasing, you hear Trinbago Unified Calypsonian Organization (TUCO) quarrelling, you hear mas people quarrelling, you hear pan people quarrelling, you hear everybody quarrelling. If we really actively engage these individuals when the programme is being developed, even when the budget is being made they are the ones who will be on the ground and they would go into it that we have a budget cut and five percent (5%), ten percent (10%), fifty percent (50%) or whatever. They were at the table when that cut is made. Therefore, they will not be outside cussing you because it is the first time they heard about the cut happening. We need to be conscious that what we are dealing with is a situation where people will complain, people will think of worst case scenarios, people will continue saying negative things when they do not have sufficient information. If they are at the table when the decisions are made they will have the necessary information.

32 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR F. BYISRAEL (Cont’d) Madam Presiding Officer, probably the most important reason for allowing this carnival, this re-thinking of our carnival and possibly the establishment, the real establishment of a second carnival if we so agree, why this is important and why we can use this as an example of how we practice that participatory democracy, is again the fact that Tobago is at the cost of receiving even more autonomy to rule ourselves, to do what we need to do.

Madam Presiding Officer, what I have noticed though, is that when you chat with people on the ground even about this Tobago autonomy, what you see is a little bit of fear and a little bit of hesitation. There is a genuine concern that we have been given a little bit of autonomy, actually a good bit of autonomy all of these years and there is kind of the feeling that we did not do nothing with it. If we have done nothing with it, what are we doing with more? Yes! I will repeat on record that that will be thanks to the PNM who has been managing Tobago for the last eighteen (18) years. So what they are seeing; what they are expressing; is that frustration that we have been using a whole set of money the forty (40) or forty-five (45) how much billion dollars it is, and those of us on the ground cannot really say; cannot really show the kind of development

33 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR DR. F. B.YISRAEL

(Cont’d)

that we had expected given that all of that money was being spent. So they are skeptical!

Madam Presiding Officer, we need to remind those people, and again we can use this re-thinking of Carnival and rethinking of our festivals a way to do it, that even though we have been governing ourselves for the last however long, that the people of Tobago have really not been actively involved in that process and that is what we are trying to allow them to do. I know it, and I am sure all of you know it and you know it Madam Presiding Officer, Tobagonians bright. We excel at everything we are given an opportunity to do. They are those who are on the ground who have excellent ideas, ideas that I would never think about because that is not my field. What we are doing, we are asking you to just give up a little bit of power take it down release the grip and allow those who are out there who have the knowhow who have the experience who have gone to other places and seen it and then can come back and tweet it or come back and completely revolutionize it so that it is Tobago. That is what we are asking you to allow those of us who sit or who do not sit in that little room known as the “Executive Council” to help all of us, develop.

Madam Presiding Officer, that is what we are asking for, an opportunity

34 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR DR. F. B.YISRAEL

(Cont’d)

for the island for those who are really involve to brainstorm to see, how can we do this, how can we do this better.

Madam Presiding Officer, we have a very rich history on this island. We have a history that is being told kinda during our Heritage Festival, but even during that festival, it is really told one way and one way only, or it really only talks about a particular era. This is an opportunity again to open up our minds to think about how we could think about this differently, how we could identify different eras of Tobago’s history to highlight within our festivals.

We have an opportunity to look at our folklores and possibly create our Tobago specific carnival characters, characters that you have never seen anywhere else in the world, not in Trinidad; not in Brazil nowhere else, but we just need to give us the opportunity to do that. What we are asking for is for us to really just stop and think for a little bit. Stop and brainstorm for a little bit and allow those of us outside of this room, an opportunity to really shape how we do things, how we do these festivals in Tobago. Yes, if and when we do that and we do it correctly, we will indeed be attracting thousands more people to the island because we do

35 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR DR. F. B.YISRAEL

(Cont’d)

know that we need more people on the island to continue to develop our economy.

Madam Presiding Officer, let us just think about it for a second and these are just my ideas. I said I am not carnival person, I do not really know much about these things, but just having an opportunity to think about it.

Trinidad carnival it is big, it is bright it is loud; it is “rah rah” that is the bacchanal, that is why people go to Trinidad for carnival. This is an opportunity for us in Tobago, to sit and really critically think about whether it does make sense. Does it really, really, really, really, really make sense to try to compete with that? I do not know the answer. But does it really make sense? Or can we in Tobago use the opportunity to rebrand Tobago during Carnival time as the “Camp capital of the World.”

So all of the people, you know the church people in Trinidad who may not want to be a part of the revelry can come to Tobago for that weekend and those two (2) days and whatever and we use that opportunity at that time to get those people that is a source that we have not really tapped into. This is an opportunity to critically sit and think about that, this is an opportunity to really critically sit and review the economics of marketing Tobago that way around carnival and not necessarily trying to compete with what is happening in Trinidad.

36 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR DR. F. B.YISRAEL

(Cont’d)

Madam Presiding Officer, if we do agree, that we do want a Tobago carnival that may not necessarily be around the same time, and we do already have this tradition of Tobago Fest being in September, then we can really, really sit down and work through what that means for us. We may not again try to do the pretty mas and those things that we know Port-of- Spain Carnival for, but we can create, I do not know our Anansi mas, wherever, whatever, our own thing.

We have a rich history and I know Madam Presiding Officer, this is something that you also enjoy, having the modern mud, where we for the very first time are seeing brightly coloured vibrantly coloured mud.

Maybe our Tobago Fest can focus a big chunk of it and having all of us in that brightly coloured mud. I do not know! It is a suggestion! This is what we need people to be sitting around thinking about; actively thinking about what work best for us.

Madam Presiding Officer, I am going to wrap up. I am going to wrap up by asking us and particularly asking the Executive Council to do two (2) things this afternoon. To really listen and critically review the arguments that are made here because this is one that really should not be a partisan issue, this is one that really should be one that you vote based on party

37 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR DR. F. B.YISRAEL

(Cont’d)

lines because that is what you are supposed to do. This is one that we could agree on, because it is good for Tobago.

The second thing I would ask through you, Madam Presiding Officer the Executive Council, is that we do not do what we frequently do whenever the Minority brings a motion which is, and I guess we have already passed the first step of it, water it down by doing an amendment and then you pass your watered down amended version. This is the part that annoys and frustrates me to the core because after you water it down and you set up your committee and you do whatever, nothing happens after that and by the way, I would like to put on record –what date is today the March 28th, 2019 – this is our 24th Sitting – we in the Minority have raised several Motions. They were watered down and several committees should have been set up. We are still waiting for information on the Committee that deals with transportation because we had suggested that we create this Tobago Transportation Authority that would manage all transportation. We are still waiting to see what that will do, how that will work and we are also still waiting for the committee that should have been set up to walk Tobago through this entire Tobago Autonomy Self-Governance Bill thing that is happening in Trinidad in the

38 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) COUNCILLOR F. B. YISRAEL

(Cont’d)

Parliament and that Committee again, has not been set up. It is possible and please correct me if I am wrong that they were set up and I just do not know. That is quite possible.

If that is what happened please let me know. But what we are doing here and what we have spent the last two (2) years doing Madam Presiding Officer is just coming and sitting around this horseshoe and saying that we will do these things, saying that we will set up these committees, saying that we will whatever and nothing gets done.

Madam Presiding Officer it seems like this People’s National Movement (PNM) led Executive Council is bent on doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Or, maybe I am wrong that this PNM led Executive Council is doing the same thing over and over and over and are happy with the results that we have gotten. Either of those are sad places for us to be. I would end, by stating emphatically that Tobago is ready for greater development, for greater economic freedom to actively be a part of all of the decisions that are made about us.

Tobago is ready for participatory democracy and we can if we pass this Motion as originally proposed and then swiftly act on it, start to give Tobago all that it deserves.

Madam Presiding Officer I thank you. [Desk thumping]

39

MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER:

Member for Parlatuvier/L’Anse

Fourmi/Speyside.

ASSEMBLYMAN.

FARLEY

AUGUSTINE

(Member

for

Parlatuvier/L’Anse Fourmi/Speyside): Thank you very much Madam Presiding Officer. I wish to begin by asking us to consider a question.

The question is: How do we define Tobago in the nation context of Trinidad and Tobago? I am asking that question because at the heart of this Motion and every other Motion we have discussed, is really about how we see ourselves and how we define ourselves and that question is even more relevant on a day like today when the Councillor, Secretary for Tourism Transportation and Culture will stand and amend the Motion and will wish to water it down to the point that we do not acknowledge the realities in the relationship between Trinidad and Tobago. I wish to start there because our reality is – this is not an opinion -it is a reality – our reality is in the nation context called Trinidad and Tobago, the larger Trini culture often times subsumes the smaller Tobago culture. Our reality is, that the larger Trini culture is often used to define Trinidad and Tobago and unfortunately so. When we water down this second tenet of the Motion: “Whereas the development of these cultural expressions is also critical for maintaining the identity of Tobago within the context of a sometimes

40 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

complimentary national culture and at other times a competing larger “Trini” culture;” It says to me that leaders in this Honourable House are unwilling to acknowledge the reality that we are in competition with a larger “Trini” culture. That is ta reality. At the heart of this Motion let us also look at how within the context of a larger “Trini” culture and we are not unique with this problem.

If we go to St. Kitts/Nevis, Antigua Barbuda, you go to the Commonwealth of the Bahamas you will find that smaller territories struggle to keep their identity and have it recognized as part of national culture.

I do not understand why we are seemingly bashful about

acknowledging that reality. If we acknowledge that reality it perhaps might prompt us to act differently and it might prompt us to act with a sense of urgency.

In preparation of this Motion. I sought to speak with some stakeholders within … I tried to look for some seniors, some elderly folks within the Carnival industry so that

maybe they could share with me some

anecdotes about Tobago Carnival and the genesis of Tobago Carnival and I wish to share some of those anecdotes with this Honourable House. I think it is important for understanding the necessity of this Motion.

41 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

I was told that organized Carnival in Tobago is as a result of some Tobagonians were going to Trinidad to play mas and on the return, sea rough, the boat is not as smooth as what we have. In fact, the boat perhaps is as rough as the Galleons Passage; people vomit down the place and sick and all kind of things and they decided instead of us just going down to Trinidad let us organize our Carnival properly. I was told anecdotally that members of that first Carnival Committee will include Sardinha, CP Roberts, Henry “Brown Betty” Smith, George Leacock Sr. The persons who gave me the information recalled that Sardinha was the chairman of the Committee, Leacock, the secretary and Smith the treasurer. They began to organize because they felt that there was a need.

Tobagonians have always been autonomous in our thinking. It is not new.

Instead of going down to Trinidad, let us organize ourselves properly in Tobago and the more elders I spoke to I heard about Calypso tents in the 1920s and 1030s. I was reminded about “Shadow” and how he would have recorded some of Tobago’s Carnival history in the songs like his … “pack, pack” and which remind us of what Carnival was like in Tobago him coming from Culloden and so on. I also heard the anecdote of people like Adesenia and the devil portrayals that happened on the island and I was reminded that there had been times in Tobago’s

42 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

history when our Carnival was heavily subscribed to, where the Carnival product was superior, when participation was great and that what we might be experiencing is natural fluctuation, down turn, people get bored and people want something new and hence the necessity of this Motion.

There is a need for us to reinvent our carnival. Now, I am positing this on the table as a man from the church and as a seasonal camper. In fact, last week I was in the Constituency of my goodly friend, Member for Black Rock/Whim/Spring Garden, and I told the church to invite your Area Representative, let him come and hear the word of God, but I did not see him so I assume he was perhaps busy.

I am sure that the good folks

would have given him my invitation… [Interruption] [Crosstalk] [Laughter] HON. CHIEF SECRETARY: I did not get it.

ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE: Well, I will take it up with the Church Board. But even as someone within the bowels of the church, I wish to strongly posit that there is a need for us to reinvent the carnival as we have it. In fact, people in fact the Secretary of Tourism, Culture and Transportation, made the point that it is because of our moral bearings now; because of the rise of the church; because of charismatic religions and I am paraphrasing why we have seen a downturn in terms of

43 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

participation of carnival activities.

I am paraphrasing. She is linking

that there may be a possibility to those things, and I am saying the converse is also happening.

I could tell you that there are folks that I raised in camp that I have been camping with that I have been carrying to camp as almost babies and when I WhatsApp them, when I call them now and I say, “Leh we go camp nuh”. They say, “Nah boy, I going J’ouvert”. So, the converse is also happening. We are all competing for the same space; we are all competing for the same cultural space. So one of the things that we may need to do and that we have to do, is to become more innovative.

Now, I would have understood the Secretary of Tourism, Culture and Transportation if she had altered the first Resolution to say that the Tobago House of Assembly should continue to allow communities to host carnival activities and find ways to reinvent the Tobago Carnival, but we cannot behave as if it is blanket across the board that all communities have been doing it and that has been in the majority. Kudos to Calder Hall and Crown Point, conversing it. We have seen some decline in Roxborough and then when you look at Scarborough, you wonder if we should actually keep J’ouvert in Scarborough at all, given the numbers. If the Secretary is looking at what happened in Scarborough for example,

44 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

you cannot look at that and see that as being extremely poor participation, then I have to stand here and question sanity of some Members.

Beyond that, I was also informed that carnival is a lot more spiritual than you think. I said to the person, but how can carnival be spiritual because in my world, carnival is as secular as it gets and is far removed from spirituality as it gets?

That is my world. However, the person pointed

out to me, the person said, “Look, have you observe that the vast majority of our mas makers tend to be Roman Catholics or Spiritual Shouter Baptist? I said, “Well I never really give it any thought”. He said, “Go ahead, give it some thought, start thinking of the mas band makers that you know; start thinking of their religious persuasions and you will see that even mas makers they may just simply have a different sense and definition of spirituality to yours Farley”. That is what I was told. So in our discussion, we have to recognize that although Tobago is a small space there is sufficient space for us to do multiple things and do multiple things well.

I wish to go a bit into Carnival Economics. I look at a Report done by Keith Nurse and that name should be familiar to many in the House.

Keith Nurse is a senior fellow at SALSES. SALSES is the Sir Arthur Institute of Social Economics Studies of the West Indies, and in his 2017

45 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

Report he looked at the years 2008 – 2017. In it, and I am quoting Keith Nurse now, he said: “Carnival arrivals can continue to be a key driver of tourism and creative industries expansion.

Tourist arrivals for the Carnival consistently

account for over twelve percent (12%) of total annual arrivals and visitor expenditure for the three week period. A large share of repeat visits from diaspora regional and cultural tourists drives this impressive economic performance”.

So in other words, carnival for Trinidad and Tobago as a whole and in particular for Trinidad, is a key driver for our tourism sector. In fact, it accounts for the peak in arrivals in any year, and if carnival arrivals low, tell yourself arrivals for that year is going to be low. Because the peak arrivals for Trinidad according to Nurse and his study using CSO (Central Statistical Office) statistics, is that carnival is our peak for tourist arrivals.

He also highlighted an important point which is the role of the diasporic community plays in sustaining the Carnival Industry. Madam Presiding Officer, I have cause to buff many people who see carnival as just a waste of time, because there are few Industries in the country that grow as quickly and grow as well as the Carnival Industry.

That is a reality!

The Carnival Industry is also one of our most productive Industries in terms of performance in the entire county. In fact, in some years, carnival

46 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

grows by at least four percent (4%) annually in most years. So let us think of what other Industry grows so well in the country and we will realize that carnival is not a waste of time as far as the economics is concern. That is something we have to consider when we are considering whether or not we should have a second carnival; and whether or not we should reinvent the carnival that we have because it stands to reason that if Trinidad and other Caribbean territories can make money from carnival there might just be something there that we could get. We could perhaps get piece of the pie.

Additionally, in 2017 figures and this is CSOs (Central Statistic Office) figures, estimated total visitor expenditure for Carnival in 2017, was at US$ fifty million dollars (US$50m.) It was down one million dollars ($1m.) from the year before 2016, it is according to CSO statistics. Think about that for a second, fifty million dollars ($50 m.) spent by visitors in the space of just three (3) weeks. Madam Presiding Officer, every year the cost of costumes keep rising exponentially; the cost of the fetes keep going up; and somehow people are still able to afford them. Somehow the auntie and the uncles from the United States could still fly in and pay for their costume and pay for their season passes and go to fete after fete.

So, there is economic benefits in having the Carnival if it is done well.

47 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

In terms of job creation and I want us to look indirectly at job creation.

Carnival in my estimation indirectly creates thousands of jobs and most of these jobs are in the Ancillary Industries. We are talking about things like Tele communications. People come they need:  Cell phones;  Sim cards;  Phone cards;  To call people;  Data;  To able to post on Instagram, WhatsApp and Twitter, their experience while they are here.

So Tele-communication benefits.

We have:  Ground transportation;  Auto rentals;  Catering;  Tour operations; Then we may have the unlikely we may not think about often, but things like:  Book Publishing and Advertising; then  Advertising Handicraft sales;

48 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

because when tourist comes to a place one of the things that they look at, is what can I take back that can represent the fact that I was there; I accomplished this; I connected with people in a strange place.

Handicraft fits that. And of course the clothing industry profits because people need to dress and look their best. People need to look as zessers they say in order to make it to the carnival fetes. So we have all of these industries benefiting from having a carnival.

I reached out to a carnival expert Dr. C. Baharat who has a Ph.D in cultural studies in the University of the West Indies, but is a Lecturer with the University of Technology (UTECK) in Jamaica and I reached out to her.

I asked her a simple question. The question was: How many

Trinidad styled carnivals or Trinidad-led carnivals are there globally?

She said at her last count, it was sixty (60). So think about this. Carnival is not just good for business internally but, carnival is also good for export. It is something that we too can export.

Councillor Dr. F. B.YIsrael spoke about the possibility of marrying our traditional folklore characters with our carnival and creating new characters that are Tobago centric, Tobago owned and Tobago indigenous.

I am saying who is to say that with the creation of these that we cannot be looking at exporting these characters to other carnivals

49 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

around the region and around the world, the same way mud is being exported in a plastic bag? I would have never thought that the day would come when we are exporting dirt. Taking dirt colouring and exporting to other people around the world to use. So there is an industry that can be gained from having both a second carnival and re-inventing the preLenten carnival. Perhaps, we should look at the example of Jamaica. I am using the Jamaican example because it is the one I am most intimate with. When I was at the University Campus, to make costumes, when we came home for Christmas, we would full our suitcases with all the beads and feathers we could find from Samaroo’s and they would often be squashed between tins of corned beef, cheese, seasonings, pepper sauce and powder milk because Jamaica does not sell powdered milk. We squashed them up and carried them back to Jamaica to create these costumes that we think were fantastic.

When I looked back at the

pictures recently I said these things were really cheap and cheaply looking. We carried them back and created the band and organized through the Trinidad and Tobago Students’ Association to have the band on the campus and have the carnival.

I left the campus in 2000 –

[Interruption] yes, mas band – I would not say I am a mas man, but I tried my

50 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

best as a student leader because one of the principles of the Church is render unto Caesar what is Caesars. I left the campus actively in 2009, but I have been back every year except for last year. When I go back and looked at what carnival in Jamaica has become since the days when I first arrived in Jamaica.

The Jamaicans saw carnival at one point as an

uptown thing for the rich people, the brown skinned people in Jamaica, the people who live in the expensive region and I watched how this festival has developed into a massive money making enterprise, I ask myself, why cannot we? We are closer to anything carnival than Jamaica.

The one caveat though, is I have seen in Jamaica photographers coming from Trinidad, models for band launch coming from Trinidad, costumes being created and designed by Trinidadians.

Practically Trinidadians

managing the whole industry out there. Of course the musicians were from Trinidad. I would not want that to necessarily be our story because our story should be we re-invented our carnival that we can become the truest and best alternative to carnival in Port of Spain and then we look at the feasibility of a second carnival that can earn money for the local Tobago industry people as opposed to everything necessarily coming from

51 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

Trinidad, and that is a careful consideration that must also be made. We must also acknowledge the fact and I see what Councillor, Secretary for Tourism, Culture and Transportation would have cleverly tried to do.

Amend the Motion so that the blame for why we are still here does not rest squarely on the shoulders of her Party.

Here we are in 2019 ten (10) years after a 2009 report that recommended some of the same things we are recommending today and we are still being told this thing will take some time to develop. I wonder why it is we are not being told I am sorry for it taking so long. Between 2009 to 2019, if my memory serves me correct, we had and still have the same political party governing the island so continuity, transition and all of these things should not be an issue. By the time “Gypsy” came on the scene in 2012, 2009 was already a distant memory. One must ask the question now: Why was the answer a flat outright no in 2012? What is so wrong if the Motion says we are going to revisit that 2012 Executive Council decision? That is a fact. Unless we are saying it was not the Executive Council that took the decision in 2012 and the former Chief Secretary Mr. London on his own accord just said no and that was that.

That is a fact acknowledged by this Motion and so to amend it is to try to water it down and remove the blame from where the blame is supposed to

52 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

be placed and make it look as if we are now trying a thing. More than that, I do not understand why we are afraid to have motions that are time bounded. I would appreciate if the Secretary said to us six (6) months is too short, we will amend it and we will say a year and a half but to amend it and not put any time bounds at all, it means that this four (4) year term will expire and the next one will start and we will still be discussing the same thing. Smart goals require that we put time on these goals. We should have a time attached to how long it will take us rather to have this assessment done. The Secretary for Tourism, Culture and Transportation also spoke about - and sometimes Google is our best friend - in raising the potential conflict between the church and the State in this secular festival, we should have looked back to see where the genesis of that might have come from. If we go to a Guardian report of Friday, March 09, 2012 and we were in the midst of the back and forth because as far as people were concerned Kamla and them trying to come and impose their self on Tobago, they are disrespecting us, they are breaking all protocol. It is just ironic that that was a stance in 2012 but, in 2018/2019 Stuart Young and others could do worse and we are silent, and we are okay with it. Notwithstanding that article heading is:

53 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

“London urges Pentecostal Assembly of the West Indies (PAWI) to speak out on second Tobago Carnival.

In the newspaper report and I am quoting: Tobago House of Assembly Chief Secretary Orville London yesterday called on the Pentecostal Assembly of the West Indies Tobago district to express its view on the staging of a second Carnival on the island.

Which is not bad, he then said: The church has a role to play in the specific development issues with moral and ethical overtones and had remained silent for too long on too many things. Everything is your business and you will find that in a number of developed countries the church make statements. There are things that you do not like, so if you do not like it say it. There is also all this talk in Tobago about a second carnival. What is the view of the church on that? What are you all saying about it?”

Now, this sounds like the Chief Secretary from the tone of it was inciting the Churches to help him raise an objection to having a second Tobago Carnival because it was politically fitting at that time so to do.

So the

Motion rightfully acknowledges that in 2012 there was an Executive Council decision… In fact, if you go to the Website of the THA, you will

54 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

still find articles posted there about this matter, to not have a second carnival. So the second Resolution is perfect as it is; the first Resolution is also perfect as it is. I will give way if those on the other side wish to add the word, “continue” since the Secretary is saying that it has already started with the engagement of communities to reinvent the carnival.

Madam Presiding Officer, finally, it would be remiss of me not to touch a bit on the issue of, “Camping”. My Colleague mentioned it, but I want to go a little more in-depth. This carnival thing to me is more than just the parade what happen on the street, is more than just what happens in the fetes; it is a much larger industry than that. The church I believe, will be hypocritical to say it does not want any carnival at all when we are all too happy to have the carnival time off to go to camp. If the church is saying no carnival period, then church people instead of going to camp should come to work. [Laughter] Let us be real! Instead of going to camp, you should come to work because you are saying, “No Carnival”. We cannot on one hand want them to have a carnival so we go have we time over here and then on the other hand say do not have none at all. Let us be real. I mean give the people what the people want. God has never asked any of us to force anybody to follow his dictates of any particular church.

It is always about free will; it is always about freedom of choice. Even in

55 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

this coming week and as we celebrate religious liberty we are reminded that that freedom of choice exists. While I am not a carnival person and you would not see me wining down low in J’ouvert in Roxborough, I believe it is the right of people if they want to do so, to do so. It is also my right to go to camp; it is also my right to preach against carnival, it is my right to encourage people to come to camp and it is their right if they want to go otherwise so to do. That is the basis of a democracy.

But this year, I recognize that we have a shortfall in terms of accommodation for camp.

People were randomly calling my

Constituency Office asking for help to find venues for camping. I am saying, but this is not the role of a Constituency Office to look for a Community Centre for you to camp; or to look for a field for you to camp. I mean, just look for where you want to camp and find it. People from Trinidad I do not even know how they got the number, but they are calling. Couple times I have to put them on to Community Development; put them on to this person and it hit me that where are our hostels that can accommodate that kind of activity? Not just that kind of activity, when we have sports metes like the Falcon Games that is coming, then people are also looking for cheap accommodation that they could bring their back packs in a more casual environment that they could stay in. So

56 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

one of the things I want us to look at even as we are looking at Carnival, is to not forget to look at the campers. I see it as part of the Carnival Industry that is worthwhile. There is money to be made from that as well.

As the Motion said, this is not a Motion saying that we have to have a second carnival, this is saying that we should do the proper assessment.

If the 2009 Report is still valid and still has merit, then let us use that as the assessment in moving forward. This Motion does not say that we have to reinvent the Carnival in one way versus the other. It says that we must encourage our communities so to do; we must engage our communities so to do … [Interruption] MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER: Member your speaking time is up.

EXTENSION OF SPEAKING TIME Motion made: That the Member’s speaking time be extended by a ten (10) minutes. [Dr. F. B.Yisrael].

Question put and agreed to.

MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER: Member your speaking time has been extended.

ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE: Thank you very much.

It is a

good thing I did not promise brevity today, [Laughter] so no one could

57 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

say that I reneged on my promise. But being a man of the church, a promise is a covenant you must keep.

Madam Presiding Officer, as I was saying in wrapping up, this House must really sit and take a hard look at what we have. We can have a much better pre-lenten carnival and we can potentially have a big money making second carnival; we could potentially have the best alternative to carnival in Port-of-Spain so that people do not think if they need a slower carnival they must go to San Fernando or Princess Town, they must think I must come to Tobago. We could have potentially a second carnival that may even facilitate those bands from Trinidad who are doing their band launches at that time of the year, that facilitates the creativity of our people and that would give our local soca artiste a chance. That is something we have to remember. During the pre-lenten carnival, our local artiste must compete with everybody else in Trinidad who have access to Radio, Television, proper studio everything; we have to compete with them. If we have a second carnival it may be a possibility that a hit song could really make a hit from our second carnival and makes its way all the way down towards the next cycle of Trinidad pre-lenten carnival.

All of these are things to be considered.

58 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) ASSEMBLYMAN. F. AUGUSTINE

(Cont’d)

I concede that in our discussion we have to dialogue with more than just the stakeholders who are intimate to carnival. We must also dialogue with the public at large so I concede that point. I see no real reason for us to amend the Motion to water it down so that we would not have to acknowledge the fact that our indigenous culture is competing for a space on the national platform; to water it down to the fact that we fail to acknowledge the reality that previously we said no to a second carnival and now we are going to reassess it.

Finally, there is no need to amend the Motion to water it down to the point where we do not acknowledge that too many of our communities and Carnival Committees have not been engaged in reinventing the carnival as we know it.

Thank you Madam Presiding Officer. [Desk thumping] MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER: Chief Secretary and Secretary of Education, Innovation and Energy.

CHIEF SECRETARY AND SECRETARY OF EDUCATION, INNOVATION AND ENERGY [Hon. Kelvin Charles]: [Desk thumping] Thank you very much Madam Presiding Officer.

Madam Presiding Officer, it is a pleasure to rise today to contribute to the Motion presented by the Minority, but that has been amended by the

59 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) Majority. It is interesting, that the Minority Leader who professes to be a man who is a democrat, as soon as the Chief Secretary gets up to speak in response to his Motion, he has departed the Chamber. I think it is very, very significant.

Madam Presiding Officer, I would have sat here and I would have listened to all the Speakers because I know that as one participating in the debate, at least common courtesy and decency would suggest that one hears what is being said so that one can contribute in a meaningful way and if necessary to respond to some of the concerns.

Let me begin by addressing Madam Presiding Officer, the concerns of the Minority in respect of the amendment of the Motion, and I do not understand the lament.

The Motion was amended simply because in our reading of the Motion it was clear to us that the spirit and intent of the Motion was really to create a series of conversation, a dialogue as it were, in attempting to see whether the time is not now right for us to treat with the whole issue of a second carnival for Tobago, in addition to which there were some flawed premises and some misconceptions. For example, the Motion – if I were to take paragraph four (4):

60 Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) “And Whereas over the years participation in some of the island’s carnival celebrations has arguably been extremely poor;” Madam Presiding Officer, I do not know which years that this Motion speaks to because the truth be told over the last two (2) to three (3) years the records do not at all suggest that there has been a decrease in the participation rate of persons involved in the carnival, and I am looking for my statistics because the statistics will show an increased participation rate in many of the areas. For example, in Scarborough the “Ole” Mas bands increased from two (2) in 2018 to six (6) in 2019. There was also a welcome return to persons registering for the “Ole” mas as individuals.

That is the fact. That is statistic.

The Calder Hall J’ouvert organizers have also reported all round decreases but have complained about the number of revellers who were just interested in jumping behind a music truck with no costumes of any kind. These are some of the things we have to consider. Why is it that some of our people just like freeness? As a matter of fact, band leaders who

produced

costumed

bands

complained

bitterly

about

the

unwillingness of those persons who express an interest in playing mas but that unwillingness to pay for costumes. Even the mud mas that you

61 spoke glowingly about, the truth be told, if you really examined the mud mas Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) over the last two (2) years what you will see is that whilst the numbers have grown, persons hardly have mud. They do not even want to pay a twenty dollars ($20) to get mud. And it is serious because even as you seem to talk about innovation and re-inventing one has to get to the core of these issues. It is as simple as that. Many times we look and we listen.

I heard you made reference to Trinidad - and you know that there are band launches in Trinidad months before the carnival season. I cannot tell you the last time I heard of a band launch in Tobago. Also there are band parties at the end. There is a reluctance generally of persons in Tobago to be involved in mas. Some of them do not want to pay and that is the reality. You spoke about people’s right to do what they should do, participate or not participate. It is people’s right to participate in carnival activities. It is their right not to participate if they so desire. “That is the reality. That is some of the things we have to treat with.

I was particularly disappointed because we saw this Motion as being noncontentious basically. The Motion calls for us to take a look as to whether the time has come for a second carnival and it was on that basis we approached the conversation. There are times listening to you on the other

62 side, through you Madam Presiding Officer, I got the impression that the contribution suggested that we were against the consultation or the Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) approach suggested. We are not and it was heart rending to sit here and listen to the lamentation of the Minority Councillor all in the name of the people when in truth and in fact the Minority Leader was really expressing a sense of her own frustration and I consider it particularly disingenuous with what was happening.

We like to talk about participatory democracy. We did not object.

Councillor Nadine Stewart-Phillips did not object to the approach. So where did that come from? As far as I am concerned, participatory democracy does not mean that all issues of governments and government must be discussed by everybody. I am sure that you are aware that democracy in its purest form would have been valid years ago particularly in communities that were small and where it was physically possible for the citizenry to meet together to discuss issues of governance in those days that were relatively simple. We have evolved to what we call indirect democracy where a few are given a social contract for a period of time to run the affairs of the State. It does not mean of course that you would not engage the population on particular issues at particular times and you know what was disingenuous again? Reference was made

63 to the approach that we have decided to take in respect of the Autonomy issue.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) I remember that prior to my Administration there were countless meetings all over Tobago on the autonomy issue and yet when I invited the Minority side to be part of a conversation, the Minority Councillor described four (4) years of conversation all over Tobago as a sham. One of the things that you must recognize that in a democracy ideas must contend and somebody may not like your ideas. The majority may not like your ideas and if that is the case that is the case. It may be one of the vagaries of democracy but, such it is. So the fact that one may make a suggestion and it is not carried does not necessarily mean that the consultation was poor or bad. It may signal that one is a poor looser if anything else. As much as they leave the Chamber - they like to give jamming but they cannot take but, I congratulate you the Member for Parlatuvier/L’Anse Fourmi/Speyside. You seem to have more in you than your Colleagues.

You did make the point about your lack of appreciation for the amendments and deletions of the paragraph that dealt with the first resolution. In addition to that, you also made reference to the amendment of the second paragraph, “whereas” and felt that because the words,

64 “competing” came out the Motion has been watered down. I submit, it is not. What we have proposed captures the essence of the Motion. Indeed, Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) as you are very well aware all cultures contend. As a matter of fact, what we have today and in some instances represent a legacy of some of the African culture; not everything. Syncretism is a natural phenomenon when it comes to culture and cultures clashing but I say to you without fear of contradiction, that we have been able in Tobago to preserve a distinctive culture in very, very many ways. The fact that we took that out is not an indication that one does not appreciate the nature of Syncretism.

We do. But the simple fact of the matter is, it is within the context of the national culture which is what we have. So, we have not watered down the Motion. We got to the core of the issue and that is what we are about.

The arguments that you would have presented relating to the economics of the Motion, we are not averse to those. As a matter of fact, the point was made by my Colleague, that if we are to move to a second carnival then clearly, there are some issues that we must pay attention to. Clearly, what we do not want, is a replication of what happens in the pre-lenten season. It must be a product that is consciously and explicitly constructed so as to generate particular outcomes. That is what we are saying.

We

are also saying, that those outcomes ought in the main, to be a set of

65 outcomes that can contribute to the economic development of the island.

So we are not a part in respect of the economics. I would just want to Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) suggest to you, that in addition to some of what you would have mention that we would also want to place on record, the fact that arising out of any second carnival must be that the developmental opportunities to our people in Tobago, as well as those in the various communities must be paramount.

One of the things we would not want at all as seem to be case in the Tobago Fest, is the situation where we had a Tobago Fest but most of the providers of the goods and services were from outside of Tobago because those who would have organized it on the basis that they had the resources. I do not know because you would have confess that for most of the carnival season except Jamaica, you are on camp. So I do not know if you aware that the first year of the Tobago Fest there was relative success, but after that it degenerated to the point where it was like a Blocko; with multiple fights and so on. That was the prime reason that it was stopped. What was suggested in terms of the benefits, were never realized. Never realized! As a matter of fact, it was felt that we will see the value of costumes and there would be technology transfer and that kind of stuff. It never did happen. That is why if we are going this route

66 of a second carnival, we must make sure that all the elements associated with the product that whatever we come up with, must be those that can Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) contribute to the development of the island in ways that our artesian; our creative persons and so on can benefit and can reap the rewards. Let me make the point very forcefully, that we are not averse really to, “Innovation and Creativity”. I will share this with you.

There was a time and you spoke to the history of the Carnival and you spoke to some of the as you said there were anecdotal experiences that you got, where in the absence of music trucks; and DJs and so on, it was the steel band - steel band rule the route. But like everything else things evolve, and now you have music trucks. But more than that, an attempt was made if you want to call it to recreate, yes and to get the steel bands back on the road on Carnival Monday and Tuesday. I do not know if you would recall, I had to intervene in order to moderate or to mediate that situation to get the pans back on the road. But do you know what happened this year? They were not there. Steel bands men were given the choice and they decided that it was either Senior Panorama and Junior Panorama or Senior Panorama and pans on the road. In their letter (because there is a letter) I happen to see that letter that went to the Festival Commission that their decision was, Steel band Panorama and

67 Junior Panorama. I say that not to criticize the steels bandsmen but to demonstrate to you that that was, “Participatory Democracy”. We Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) consulted with them and that is the way they said they wanted to go. So, even as we tried it last year, to reinvent or to recreate, you saw what happen this year. That is part of the challenge we have to treat with.

How do you get persons to change their mental frames; their mindsets and to become innovative and creative rather than to hold on to what they think is the best thing for them?

Your Minority Leader in making his contribution did say something about not fighting with TUCO (Trinbago Unified Calypsonian Association).

For the records let me say, that this Administration had no fight with TUCO. This administration was insisting on accountability. I do not know if you know, that for years TUCO had not produced any Audited Accounts or any accounts whatsoever, for the funds they have been receiving from the THA.

That demand was made on TUCO this year.

More than that, I am aware that attempts were made to meet with TUCO on several occasions, all those attempts were frustrated. As a matter of fact, I would have instructed the Secretary of Tourism, Culture and Transportation, to use her Office to summon an “Emergency meeting” with the Chairman of TUCO, Tobago. That attempt bore no fruits. You

68 know what? We felt that as part of to use your phrase, reinventing some of the aspects of our carnival that more opportunities Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) should be given to calypsonians in terms of new or budding calypsonians coming on stream; as well as those persons interested in soca. You made the point in your contribution that our soca persons have to compete in Trinidad, but we also organize competition here for them. This year we wanted to deepen that process. It did not work out. So that is what you had this year was the Festivals Commission having to take the responsibility to run and manage calypso tents. I could tell you, the two (2) tents that were under the jurisdiction of the Festival Commission had a total of about forty (40) calypsonians. [Desk thumping] So, that one of the issues really has to do with misinformation and that is why I am taking the opportunity to correct the record. Any attempt to have a second carnival must result in the creation of a new and signature event. I am sure those of you who on the minority side would appreciate that. What you want, is to have an activity that can be branded in a particular way and that can be used to attract visitors to the island. It must be distinctive and of course, it would be rooted in the cultural norms of the island for which have a rich heritage. You made the point, that whereas carnival seem to be exported to many countries the Trinidad

69 model, in your familiarity with Jamaica there were perhaps more Trinidadian entrepreneurs and businessmen than Jamaicans.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) Therefore, even as you are saying that there is a possibility to export carnival, you placed a caveat. I am saying that is the challenge we have a forging our own. We have to, on the one hand, seek to organize and mobilize the resources in a way that would allow us to define and create this product but, on the other hand, we have to protect it in such a way so that those persons who should benefit from it, our local persons can indeed benefit, and that is the challenge. That is why we are not adverse to a conversation that would allow all stakeholders, not limited to any one (1) group or two (2) groups to be part of the process. The absence of a timeframe in no way, in absolutely no way undermines the seriousness with which we are prepared to take this on board. As a matter of fact, even before you tabled this Motion, I had already given the Secretary of Tourism, Culture and Transportation the instruction to meet with Pan Trinbago and look towards organizing a local Pan Festival in Tobago sometime in September. Why? Simply because as a national instrument but more particularly, an indigenous instrument. There is a very little activity for pan and pan enthusiasts outside of the carnival season.

70 I am old enough to remember the days when we had pan festivals where steel bands were expecting to play two (2) sounds, a tune of choice and Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) another one. I remember the year when Katzenjammers of Black Rock won best tune of choice with funiculi funicular.

At one time

Katzenjammers was known as a festival band because they had become exponents in the art. I am saying all of that are things that we can bring back. The challenge however, is that if it is not the Tobago House of Assembly (THA) initiated, it does not happen. We would really like to have a situation where there is greater investment by the private sector and in this regard any second carnival must take on board the whole issue of funding and the role of the private sector in facilitating and fashioning that kind of activity. The Member made the point and the Secretary also made the point that at the end of the day we may never call it carnival per se, because of the connotation. We may find a label in name, in nomenclature that in fact, reflects something indigenous to Tobago and that is wrapped within and around our various cultural norms and artefacts, as well as expression. We on this side are comfortable with the process of exploring it and that is why when we amended the Motion, we talked about propitious because we are saying perhaps the time is now. I

71 would suggest to those of you on that side that you do not see the amendment as something frivolous or an attempt to water down the Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) Motion and, rather as your Minority Leader had said earlier today even before he began his presentation, about magnanimity on this side.

Perhaps, that side needs to demonstrate the level of magnanimity that is required at this time. We are not here to fight. As a matter of fact, if I were in a more combative mood this afternoon, I might have been responding to the laments and the mismatch of irrelevance and disenginuity that would have characterized certain presentations. But that is not my forte, at least not today.

This Motion essentially can easily be a bi-partisan motion because we are saying on this side as was said in part by some of you on that side, that we need to consider the real possibility of a second carnival if only to ensure that we make use of the skills sets that we have in Tobago and at the same time seek to exploit the economic benefits in the main particularly as those benefits can relate to the earnings of foreign exchange.

Such a venture ought to at least and as well provide

opportunities to develop the mass production capacity of the Tobago mas

72 entrepreneurs and to support continuous improvement in the artistry and the quality of mas.

Quite frankly I would have been around last year and I witnessed some the mas presentations especially on the night of the Kings and Queens of Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) the bands and also this year. I think this year represented an improvement in the quality of most of the presentations. As a matter of fact, it is interesting that one of our veteran mas players and band leaders who would have indicated that she would have been playing mas over thirty (30) years is reported to have said: “Leave Tobago carnival alone.”

Band of the year winner said: “Bigger isn’t the better.”

And this is Kinnesha George Harry article: “A veteran Tobago band leader has added her voice to the debate over the practicality of changing the date for carnival to be celebrated on the island or staging a second carnival later in the year.”

Candice Chang Sandy who won the 2019 overall Band of the Year title with her presentation Kaleidoscope …

“Being involved in carnival for the past thirty (30) years plus, because I grew up in this – I do not see these people anywhere around carnival.

Most of them spend their carnival in Trinidad.”

73

In other words, she is making the point that many of those who are calling for a second carnival do not ever stay in Tobago during that period of time.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) One of the issues as well that we will have to consider has to do with possible impact on our school calendar. Clearly, if we are going to do a second carnival, the issue of when becomes into question and if we are talking about later down in the calendar year, we will have to ask ourselves, how can this impact the school children who as you know take part in the pre-Lenten carnival. As a matter of fact, we have junior carnival calypsonian, we have junior masquerades, we have junior steel bands and, therefore, you will have to ask yourself whether, if you are going for a second carnival, in the definition of your product, whether you have to limit and restrict some of the activities. These are some of the questions we will have to grapple with. And as you know Carnival is typically a season. Should we have another season or should it be limited to three (3), four (4) or five (5) days?

MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER: Member, your speaking time is up.

EXTENSION OF SPEAKING TIME

74 Motion made: That the Hon. Member’s speaking time be extended by ten (10) minutes [Hon. K. De Vignes] Question put and agreed to.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY: Thank you Madam Presiding Officer.

It is a good thing I did not say I was going to be short. [Laughter] So that one of the things that I need to emphasize, I did mentioned earlier that we are not averse to doing things differently and in fact, being innovative and seeking to provide opportunities for our people in Tobago to benefit from.

We would have just had a wonderful activity. We just hosted the Fourth Bi-Annual Pan-American Dragon Boat Competition Festival in Tobago. It is a pity the Member for Speyside/Parlatuvier/L’Anse Fourmi that you were not there. Were you there any of the days? It is a pity! It was a wonderful experience! You and all would have been proud. You would have been proud of the Administration for being able to pull that off.

May I inform you and your Colleagues this Honourable House and the rest of Tobago, that there were over one thousand (1,000) persons accredited, I think it would have been like about eleven hundred (1100) – “between” six and seven hundred (600-700) persons were:  Foreigners;  Canada;

75  United States;  Panama; in the main. There was a small delegation I think from:  Puerto Rico Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) such was the impact that in conversation with a couple of the persons especially those from Canada those who did not express their willingness to return said to me, “I have extended my stay”. One from seven (7) days to sixteen (16) days. So we are doing things that can redound to the economic benefit of the island and that is a sport niche that we have tapped into. So we are not averse at all. Once the conversation and whatever studies that we have to do, indicate that there is a high probability of success meaning that the venture can be viable, we are prepared to undertake the relevant activity having regard to all those considerations which have outlined which of course include funding and so on, to bring this into reality. But we are saying, let us have the conversation. So we are not averse to that at all.

Before I take my seat, and the Minority Leader must learn to behave himself because he cannot take the jamming especially in this House.

You see, he is comfortable outside of the House where he can ring his bell and march up and down, but because this House calls for a certain kind of

76 decorum and behaviour, he is so constraint that he cannot manage his behaviour at all. I could take the jamming you know. So you make

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) the noise there when I am speaking, that is alright; but whenever anybody does it on this side, you object. “Do so, ent like so”.

One of the things that one would learn when one gets into leadership position is that, “timing” is important. In many instances sometimes an idea predates its execution by many years, perhaps the time is now right for a serious consideration of a second carnival.

The point was attempted to be made that those on this side does not take cognizant of some of the suggestions or ideas that are presented. Nothing could be further from the truth! As a matter of fact in coming into Office, one of the things I said was, “Tobago is too small to be managed along partisan lines and that I am not averse to treating with talent wherever such talent exists”. In fact, there are persons who are not Members of the PNM or who may be never sympathizers of the PNM (People’s National Movement), are now working with us because they recognize that notwithstanding the difference of political views, we have the common view of building Tobago. So, I want that on record and not because some

77 persons may in their own view feel that they are sideline, that that is necessarily true of this Administration.

Madam Presiding Officer, therefore, as I take my seat, let me reiterate our position on this side, that we have absolutely no difficulty in engaging a Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) HON. CHIEF SECRETARY (Cont’d) myriad of stakeholders in respect of whether it is desirable and or feasible for Tobago to have a second Carnival.

I thank you. [Desk thumping] MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER: Minority Leader.

MR. WATSON DUKE: Madam Presiding Officer, the evening is far spent, we started with a full gallery, it is now empty, and we understand why. Whenever a Motion is raise by the Minority Council on this side, there are persons on that side who make it their business to tinker with it; to play with it and then to give a half yes, we support …do so nuh like so.

[Laughter] Clearly, I am the Leader here. Clearly Madam Presiding Officer, I am the Leader here. I set the trend the others follow. When I walk out the others walk out too.

The statistics were given by the Chief Secretary stating that those persons who are asking for a second carnival, go to Trinidad for the first carnival.

We cannot validate those statistics, but if that is so we are saying and so what? That is the reason for a second carnival. If you miss News the first

78 time, you press rewind and you watch it the second time. What is so wrong with that? Give people what they are asking for. If the majority of people do not stick around for the first carnival in Tobago, because it lacks innovation, it lacks participation in the early stages of the planning Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d) and etcetera and execution, I do not see why? We are saying give us something now so that we can work upon; something that we can inject our funds in and something that my interest is not divided over.

In other words, when you have one channel for those of us who live long enough and it was TTT alone, it is either you watch it or take off the TV. It has no cable to watch. You have no options! So, those who have that proclivity, that natural tendency to go to Trinidad for the first carnival, they are making a statement. They are saying give us a second carnival when we are least distracted by the “Savannah Grass”, when we are least distracted by the water man; give us something in Tobago. Tobago has created sufficient persons in the calypso world; in the soca world, that says to the youths who have untapped talent that your days coming up; your Tobago carnival is coming up, when the centre stage will be Tobago and Tobago alone. Even Trinidad will watch and maybe someone who is scouting for talent, may discover a talent.

79 That is why people are crying, give us a Tobago Carnival. My Colleagues on the other side speaking with codes want to give the public the impression that they support a second carnival but they do not want to call it carnival. That is the kind of childish rhetoric that we are dealing Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d) with inside here. Do not call it carnival, call it a different name. Carnival must be called carnival. We do not want no other name. Carnival is carnival. National carnival is a different carnival. Then you have Tobago Carnival, that is okay. Anybody who has been to the market, who has grassroots days will know that there is Chenette, and there is Tobago Chenette in the market in Trinidad.

There is Avocado and Tobago

Avocado when you go down to Trinidad. There is Julie mango and Tobago Julie mango. Tobago is a brand and it is time that the Secretary of Tourism, Culture and Transportation start learning about Tobago – [Crosstalk] I sat here in my Chair and I almost catch a stroke when I heard the Secretary of Tourism, Culture and Transportation revive a ten (10) year old Report, 2009 and she spoke with such fluidity, such clarity and yet those plans that are in that Report remain largely untapped. She goes on to desecrate her very own Department by saying people do not travel again to see white sand and what, beaches. But is not that what they are offering? What does Tobago has to offer again here? That is all

80 they have given people and the beaches are eroding because of coastal erosion. Even the beaches will soon be gone. We are talking something serious here. We have carefully fashioned this Motion using precise words to capture exactly what we mean. As if the Member did not read Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d) the Motion properly or the language was too sophisticated for her to understand, she just deleted parts randomly in this “hocus pocus” kind of way. It is very upsetting. So for ease of reference and with the slowness of the tongue, I will go over again the Motion that we have piloted here today: “And Whereas the development of Tobago’s indigenous cultural expressions (and I pause here for effect) is critical for the socio-economic development of the island; And Whereas the development of these cultural expressions is also critical for maintaining the identity of Tobago within the context of a sometimes complimentary national culture and at other times a competing larger “Trini” culture; And Whereas the annual pre-lent national carnival celebrations forms part of both our indigenous and national culture;

And Whereas over the years participation in some of the island’s carnival celebrations has arguably been extremely poor;”

81 I want to get it right here, Madam Presiding Officer. I do not want to get it wrong because even though I have parliamentary cover or cover of the Honourable House, I want to show you the mismatch taking place here in Tobago.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d) Mr. George Leacock, the Executive Chairman of Tobago Festivals, hear what he says on Facebook: “Be careful what you post – March 02, 2009, four (4) more days of pretending to like carnival because everybody else doing it, push, push, push, you can make it.”

This is why we have given these two (2) resolutions. So nobody has to pretend they could make it and push, push, push. If the people are exposed and they are involved and are given the necessary resources, human, financial, etcetera, they will become animated and they will do it hence the first resolution is placed in black and white. I will read it for her in case she missed it.

Be It Resolved that the Tobago House of Assembly allow…

Because they have been debarring communities from being involved. ...communities that host carnival activities to find ways to re-invent …

That is the word,

82 …the Tobago carnival celebrations and to properly manage the budgeted resources for the festival so as to attract a larger participation;” That is what we are talking about. They wiped that out completely.

Instead they want us to accept a motion when the Secretary of Finance Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d) and the Economy sat down with the Secretary of Community Development, Enterprise Development and Labour sat down with the Secretary of Tourism, Culture and Transportation and they called that consultation. They have all the answers. They could re-invent carnival.

Madam Presiding Officer I sat in this Honourable House for two (2) years, two (2) months and I have seen tourism failed, I have seen communities remained underdeveloped and I have seen finances spent badly and they are taking three (3) failed Departments to put together to re-invent carnival. It makes me say, “Ah!” That is what it makes me say.

We are of the view that if the community participates in apportioning the budgetary allocation assigned to it and say we are going to do this, we are going to do that, if they participate in so far as coming up with new ways of attracting people they will be able to do it. I shudder in my boots, when I heard our Chief Secretary saying that they need something significant, a significant event to attract people. Where was our Chief Secretary for the last two years? Where was he? I am appalled.

83 Chief Secretary if we are going to boost carnival what we need is human beings to become involved. And carnival must not be called any other name. There are already enough names in Tobago of festivals given by the THA. They have Jazz, a multi-million dollar failure. Up to now we Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d) cannot get back our money from who – D’Angelo – multimillion dollar failure to call that event by name.

Then, there is Tobago Heritage

Festival, at the end which they have some kind of carnival. Does that attract people? No. Because they way they do it. What we are signalling here today is far more deep rooted than just carnival. We are saying bring back participation within the communities. Allow people to have a say within the communities. Have real stakeholder’s meetings and when you go to have a meeting, do not go there dry mouth. Carry a little juice, a little sugar cake, a little …sandwich. You going to have a meeting dry mouth and want people to come outside. No in the United Kingdom (UK); they will do that. We went to the UK all of us and at the Parliament they told us when they are going to have meetings for local government within the communities they have to have cake and juice. They said that to us as we went out there to listen to them. They want people to come out with dry and talk about five (5) hours and send them back home empty. People will not come with their ideas. We are saying budget all

84 the money for all the carnival, budget the money for the festival and allow people to participate and monitor that money and to engage in making the thing worthwhile.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d) The last resolved is that we consider a second carnival within the next six (6) months. They wiped that out completely. They do not want any timeline. They want no timeline whatsoever and anybody who study out of timeline is wasting time. They must study towards something. They must do a research towards something. They just cannot be compiling data and have no timeline. The idea is mind-boggling that they will want to engage in research without no definite timeline.

We put six (6)

months.

Why could not they agree to that? What so hard about six months to agree? But those are my friends on the next side. They will understand that they too will have six (6) months to go and then they will try to put everything inside that last six (6) months.

We went on to say that they would meet with the various stakeholders.

We did not limit it to say that those persons with the Tobago Fest. No, we said including those persons. But the various stakeholders, the Chief is

85 talking about inclusiveness and participation and if THA does not take the initiative, nobody does.

Madam Presiding Officer, I want to put it on record here today here, it is the THA, the PNM led THA that have handicapped Tobago businessmen and have destroyed the working class to a great extent. They put them on Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d) life support call, CEPEP (Community-Based Environmental Protection and Enhancement Programme) URP (Unemployment Relief Programme) Development and up to now there are persons now in Agriculture who cannot be paid.

I looked at my brother who is responsible for Agriculture and he is driving nice, five series, gas top right up and there are people who cannot be paid for three (3) fortnights and he is swivelling in his chair as a child who just had ice-cream. Swivelling his chair. That is governance for you. That is governance. Unless the Tobago House of Assembly does not take initiative the Chief Secretary does not happen.

We want to say today, if this THA wants this private sector to become involved, they must give the private sector the opportunity to first of all develop as a private sector by supporting them. You can support them by fixing the sea bridge; you can support them by adding an additional plane to the inter-island air transport.

86 We know that one of those planes crashed and it was not even a Max 8; it crashed on the ground that is how ridiculous Caribbean Airlines has gotten to. The plane crashed on the ground. The nose break away and they want to pretend that it is a high wind that did it. It was no high wind. Careless driving! Driving the plane like if it was a bus, bounce the nose Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d) of the plane. That plane is out of operation right now. Tobagonians are suffering on a daily basis to come to Tobago and they did not even address that issue.

He, nor the Secretary of Tourism, Culture and

Transportation, nor they did not address that issue at all but they have big festivals coming up, Jazz Festival wasting money again.

We on the minority side, we are saying, Tobago has a rich culture; we have a unique culture. The way we talk is very different we do not say, ‘little’, we say, “little”. We have our own unique culture something that the Jamaicans cherish; something that the Bajan they cherish it, the Guyanese cherish it, everybody in the Caribbean cherish it except us in Tobago. They want to beat it out of us and laugh it out. But I am a proud Tobagonian and many of us are proud Tobagonians.

The way the

Tobagonians play the violin that kind of a jig music for the old time wedding, it is unique to Tobago alone.

87 I have some documentary on these guys who go over the world and they play that special kind of music. These are things that we are supposed to export. Who say our carnival has to be like Trinidad carnival? Why can’t our carnival be different? Allow the people to develop things that are unique to them.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MR. W. DUKE (Cont’d) Madam Presiding Officer, so I submit today, that is the Motion, we will not be accepting any form of amendment at all. None! They must put an end to watering down Motions on this side. I suggest that if they cannot accept our Motion, they reject the entire Motion.

Thank you Madam Presiding Officer.

MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER: Members, the question to be put has had a number of amendments proposed. I will go through the amendments before I put the final question to the House.

The first amendment deals with the first two paragraphs has requested from the second paragraph with the first Whereas so there is a deletion requested for… “…sometimes complimentary”, another deletion for: “…culture and at other times are competing larger “Trini” culture;

88 Therefore, the requested new version of the amended section would be: And Whereas the development of these cultural expressions is also critical for maintaining the identity of Tobago within the context of a national culture; Question put and agreed to.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER

Mr. Watson Duke, Mr. Farley Augustine and Councillor Dr. Faith B.YIsrael abstained.

That area is carried.

We go to the third paragraph where it says that: And Whereas the annual pre-lent carnival celebrations forms part of both our indigenous and national culture, the “s” is removed from forms.

To read: And Whereas the annual pre-lent carnival celebrations form part of both of our indigenous and national culture; Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Watson Duke, Mr. Farley Augustine and Councillor Dr. Faith B.YIsrael abstained.

Paragraph No. 4 is asked to delete:

89 “…over the years participation in some of the island’s celebration has arguably been extremely poor…” and to instead insert: “The time is now propitious to consider once again the idea of a second Tobago Carnival; So the amendment version would read:

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER

“And Whereas the time is now propitious to consider once again the idea of a second carnival in Tobago”; Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Watson Duke, Mr. Farley Augustine and Councillor Dr. Faith B.YIsrael abstained.

The second Be it Resolved… there is a request that the entire Be It Resolved, to delete that entire section.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Watson Duke, Mr. Farley Augustine and Councillor Dr. Faith B.YIsrael abstained.

The last Be It Further Resolved now becomes; Be it Resolved where the request is - there is the last section where there are a number of requests in that section. I was taking the time to re-read the request that

90 were read out by the Secretary. It is quite extensive. I think we will do the deletions first. We will then do the insertion and then we will do the new one because it is quite a lot.

Under Be It Further Resolved, it is requested to delete the word, “further”. To delete,

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER

(Cont’d)

“that the THA over the next six (6) months rethink a formally held Executive Council decision that Tobago will not have a second carnival and will instead meet with various stakeholders...”

And to further delete: “…including those that now hold the Tobago Fest…”

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Watson Duke, Mr. Farley Augustine and Councillor Dr. Faith B.Yisrael abstained.

MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER: Where you have deletions, to have insertions.

Before the word, “stakeholders” will be added, “that this House support collaborative effort between the Division of Tourism, Culture and Transportation and the Division of Finance, and the Economy to engage a wide cross-section of.

91 The second insertion would come after the words, “Stakeholders in the Tobago community.”

The third insertion between the words, “ascertain and feasibility,” the word, “the’ will be added.

Between the words, “feasibility and,” “of a second carnival” will be added.

After the word, “and” the word, “the” will be inserted.

Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) After the word, “actions” the words, “to be undertaken” will be inserted.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Watson Duke, Mr. Farley Augustine and Councillor Dr. Faith B.Yisrael abstained.

MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER: Therefore the amended paragraph would be: Be It Resolved that this House support a collaborative effort between the Division of Tourism, Culture and Transportation and the Division of Finance and the Economy to engage a wide cross-section of stakeholders in the Tobago community to ascertain the feasibility of a second carnival and the subsequent actions to be undertaken.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Watson Duke, Mr. Farley Augustine and Councillor Dr. Faith B.Yisrael abstained.

92 MADAM PRESIDNIG OFFICER: I will proceed to put the question in its entirety to the Honourable Members at this time.

Whereas the development of Tobago’s indigenous cultural expressions is critical for the socio-economic development of the island: And Whereas the development of these cultural expressions is also critical for maintaining the identity of Tobago within the context of a national culture; Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER (Cont’d)

And Whereas the annual pre-lent national carnival celebrations form part of both our indigenous and national culture; And Whereas the time is now propitious to consider once again the idea of a second Tobago carnival; Be It Resolved that this House support a collaborative effort between the Division of Tourism, Culture, and Transportation and the Division of Finance and the Economy to engage a wide cross-section of stakeholders in the Tobago community to ascertain the feasibility of a second carnival and the subsequent actions to be taken.

Amended motion, put and agreed to.

Mr. Watson Duke, Mr. Farley Augustine and Councillor Dr. Faith B.Yisrael abstained.

MADAM PRESIDING OFFICER: The Motion is now carried.

Leader of Assembly Business.

93

ADJOURNMENT Motion made: That the Honourable House do now adjourn to a date to be fixed. (Hon. K. Des Vignes) Tobago Carnival (Cont’d) Question put and agreed to.

House adjourned accordingly.

Adjourned at 4.35 p.m.