Claire Eide: Conversation with Impractical Spaces Transcript

Claire Eide Hi, everybody, thank you so much for joining us this afternoon. My name is Claire, and I'm here with Megan. We are the two Masters of Arts candidates for the Socially Engaged Art program here at Moore College of Art and Design.

Thank you so much for joining again, for being active and engaged listeners. There's just a couple of things we wanted to touch on in order to begin our conversation today. First, this meeting is recorded just so everyone is aware. If you would keep your mics off in the duration of the time, we would really appreciate that just to keep down on feedback, and noise. And if you have any questions, please feel free to drop them in the chat, either to everyone or if you wanted to private message Anna Drowzdoski or Claire Eide please feel free to do that. And we'll keep an eye on it during our talk today.

I will turn it over to Megan here so she can introduce a little bit about herself.

Megan Galardi Yes, so my name is Megan Galardi. I'm one of the MA candidates here at Moore in the socially engaged art program.

I'm originally from here, the Greater Philadelphia area and I earned my undergraduate degree in growth and structure of cities from Bryn Mawr College. I'm interested in research regarding support for individual artists in a place and more specifically the role of artists run spaces and grassroots arts organizations in providing support for artists in Philadelphia. So that is what my research is about. And Claire, Claire Eide yes, hello again. My name is Claire. I'm originally from Des Moines, Iowa, and I received my undergraduate degree in history from Grinnell College, my focus was on the process of colonization and how it affects pretty much every social construct, including education and art. That was kind of my basis for beginning my research here Moore which is now focused on how rural places became rural and what that means for doing art in them, especially when it comes to drawing artists and bringing people into these spaces. Today we are joined by the three members of Impractical Spaces, Cory, Dulcee, and Paddy. Impractical Spaces is a collaborative national project. And it's going to be a groundbreaking anthology of publications that offers a historical look at defunct and active artist-run projects throughout the United States. This is a long term project and it will engage at least 50 cities with the intent of assembling a compilation of publications for distribution, probably in the form of a book, which kind of charts the national significance of the artists run scene. It's one of the first projects or the first project to ever comprehensively record the development of artist-run spaces on the national scale.

And we are really, really thrilled that they are joining with us today. And with With that said, I'll turn it over to the three of you if you want to introduce yourself a little bit more.

Cory Imig Sure, I'm happy to introduce myself. Thank you, Megan and Claire for inviting us to be here. And I know that we're spotlighted, but the view that I have on my screen is a bunch of little boxes. So I hate talking to names. So if you feel comfortable coming off of turning your camera on, please do we want this to be a conversation and I'd love to see your faces. So I understand if you don't want to turn your camera on, I get it. I've been in zoom meetings back to back for the last year. So no pressure, but I invite you to do that if you want to. So my name is Cory Imig. I am based in Kansas City, Missouri. I'm a practicing artist myself, and in conjunction with my practice, which is mainly large scale, sculptural installations. I've also had a long running interest in artists run spaces. So in 2011, so I guess that's 10 years ago, I worked with four other artists and we founded a space called Plug Projects in Kansas City,which we might talk more about, but it's a crazy space that was founded by five of us. And after four years, We kind of all went on to do different things and a new group of artists came in to run it. And I think now it's still going and there are members that are running it that I don't even know. So I think it's on like iteration of like number four of groups of people that are run this space. But that space was founded with the interest of bringing artists from outside of Kansas City to Kansas City, to show their work and engage in our community. And then to do the opposite of that to help artists have opportunities outside of Kansas City. And Megan, as you're talking about finding support for individual artists, that's one of my most recent jobs, which I just, I'm just going through a job change. But I was recently working at Mid America Arts Alliance, where I got to work with some really huge foundations like the Mellon Foundation and the Walton Family Foundation

to providegrant opportunities for individual artists. So that is really close to me as well.That's me, Dulcee.

Dulcee Boehm Yeah, I can I can go next here. Hi, everybody. Nice to see you all I'm Dulcee. I too am a studio artist and then also do several different kinds of organizational projects, akin to kind of what Cory is mentioning in some ways, as far as my studio work that I do, I have been for for the last few years making work that's really kind of coming out of being embedded in farm communities. So working at various I worked at a goat farm work I worked at a vegetable farm, and making work out of that experience working with other folks doing doing work while I'm at work, conflating those two, two kinds of practices for myself. And so that's what I kind of focus on that that results in performative work, sculptural work, video, work, all kinds of different formats, but really thinking critically about the Midwestern landscape, and then agricultural labor and food as it relates to that landscape. I'm really excited to be able to talk with you all about rural to a degree rural places and rural culture today. In terms of my interest in artists run spaces. I had been involved in Grand Rapids, Michigan, many years ago, doing artists run kind of activity, volunteering, being involved in the scene there.

Then went away, I actually worked at Oxbow School of Art for several years, eight years, in fact, in Saugatuck, Michigan, as part of that artists community. And then I'm now back actually, as a visiting faculty member at Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids. And so I have gotten back into that that artists run scene here, which has really changed in a lot of ways since since when I was here earlier. So that's, that's a little bit about about myself. And thanks, Claire, and Megan, for inviting me.

Paddy Johnson Yeah, thanks so much for having us. So my name is Paddy Johnson. And unlike my two partners, I am not a practicing artist, but I did go to art school. And that was back in 2001, so quite some time ago. And I think that that really primed the way that I think about things and the way that I approach projects. So I am probably best known for my blog Art F City, which ran from 2005 to about 2018. We still do periodic updates, and I run a podcast with the artists William Powhida that deals with the intersection of art, money and politics. Throughout my career, I have engaged with artists and artists run spaces, and I have made it a practice to try and support artists through helping them gain gain exposure via first via the blog via certain artists projects that we were in. On Art F City, we ran a very well known project called the image management where we published images that artists were collecting this was sort of prior to Tumblr, Instagram, all these others social media sites where people can share whatever the hell they want, whenever they want.

And I now run a workshop which offers high level professional training to artists. So that's what I do my day job. And what we do together is Impractical Spaces and that is a long writing practice that I think are, well, documentation practice that for me ties into my long, some my long writing practice, but is really invested in documenting and recording these spaces that we think are so important.

Claire Eide Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that. I know Megan and I were talking earlier about kind of some questions we wanted to address and what Paddy was speaking about there at the end, kind of creating like a living testament or an archive to support of artists in the form of like artists run spaces, It's just so incredibly important. And we are curious about kind of like what drew you specifically into the practices that you do together? Yeah, like supporting supporting artists, but it's what was the kind of pivotal moment for you where you realize that there was a chance to kind of make this comprehensive project that will maybe launch what we're talking about more into the limelight?

Dulcee Boehm Well, we we all did, there's kind of I feel like a lead up to the answer to that question a little bit. we all we all three met actually, a few years ago, when Cory and I were putting together a symposium was a three day symposium called Beyond Alternatives, which was focused out of our work, Cory and my work specifically, in Central Illinois, we started a temporary residency there called Say, Uncle. And we realized through doing that kind of hosting artists doing that residency, that there was a whole lot of things going on, there were a lot of artists run spaces in that area, that area, meaning like a three hour, two and a half hour, three hour radius, from where we were located in central Illinois. And so beyond alternatives was a response that Cory and I had to bringing, just wanting to bring those folks together. to have conversations about that that specific kind of structure in a way is very different than that. Sometimes the density that can be in cities, in terms of art, more artists, run spaces, 10 15 20 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour away from each other.

So that's that structure, we were interested in, kind of thinking about in conversation with other people. And we actually

invited Paddy to be the keynote speaker for for that symposium. And Paddy, maybe if you want to share the project, at that point that you kind of talked about at the symposium during your your keynote that really, then then kind of Yeah, Paddy Johnson yeah, so I think like, probably part of the reason that I was invited, was because at the time I was working on this thing, called we're so not getting the security deposit back a guide to defunct artists spaces. So this was sort of the start of it.

Now, I had started this on the blog, maybe about a year and a half ago, two years ago, before, before this pro duct before I was invited, so this might have been like 2015 2016. And one of the reasons that this project sort of came into being was that I was constantly flown to different places in the United States, and introduced to different artists run spaces that nobody knew of, you know, I would come back, and maybe the places would look different, where they wouldn't exist at all. And I was just like, what can we do about these places, and this also was like, at the height of sort of New York gentrification story. So I was also deeply involved in like, trying to figure out ways that I could still have an apartment, you know. And so yeah, I think maybe almost rather than deal with that quite directly. I was like, well, let's take a look at where all of these really talented artists are, what they're doing and what this, like, what this is, like, what this is really looking like across the country. So we did a pilot edition, which was the so we're so not getting the security deposit back with Washington, DC. And we worked with them almost randomly, you know, there was somebody who contacted me was like, I really want to do this. And we're like, okay, and I was like, Okay, well, we'll help support the publication. At that point, I was really winding the blog down. But this was a project that I felt incredibly passionate about. So we basically made this zine it's about 40 pages, filled with honestly just incredible stories, different types of artists run spaces, ones that started in the 1970s. That like, lasted 40 years and went through like 500 different iterations, different.

There were also different spaces that that ran for very short periods of time, maybe they ran out of a garage. All of this was recorded. And then we did a series with I think, American University, we did a series of talks that sort of connected with the work that we had done and That's how the first pilot project came into being. And I think when I went to Champaign, Illinois, that was what I spent a good amount of time talking about. And maybe two months later, because I was talking about this, but I really had no plan. Cory and Dulcee phoned me up and they were like, you know, this just seems like such a great project. And we had an amazing time. This seems like such a great project. But like, doesn't it seem like a lot to do with like, just you, would you like some partners? And I was just like, Oh, my God. Yes, yes. And there was the start of Impractical Spaces. And we spent two years literally just working on, on figuring out a structure that would make this project executable. Yeah, that's a lot of boring stuff.

Claire Eide No it's not boring at all, actually, it leads into this like, great question, because there's such like a wide breadth of what an artist run space like really is, and how you can define that for the purposes of creating an archive or creating kind of this like storage container for all of that information. So I'm really curious, I kind of think of it as like this ambiance or idea, like, not directly tied to any kind of physical space. But like a group of artists collaborating, or a single artist looking to educate or expand, but I'm so curious to see kind of how the three of you as Impractical Spaces, and maybe like separately, are thinking about the definition of an audience, of an artist run space?

Cory Imig I think that's a great question. And I think it's something that we talk a lot about the three of us, and we've kind of gone back and forth, I've started to try to use the term artist run initiative, because I actually think space really limits it, like an artist run space could be a gallery that started by artists, but it could also be a publication that a group of artists are making. And so I think it comes down to intention. Like, why is the space there? Or the project? Like what is the intention behind it, and oftentimes, you know, these are really experimental, short term. projects that don't usually they're not usually started with a goal of making money, sometimes. But there's also like, a million different artists run spaces and a million different ways of doing it. So it's really hard to come up with one definition, because whenever you start to try to put parameters or to define it, there's always artists led initiatives or projects that don't fall into that, but still might be considered part of that. So something that we've decided with this project with our hope, our kind of grand dream, is to document at least 50 cities in 50 different states across the country. And we realized this is going to be a super long term project. But I think with that, working with each community, or each city to really establish what does artists run mean, in their community, and really having these publications be site specific to the location, and that's something that we've been really conscious of, and we want to make sure that that the communities and the people that are working with us, our partners in these communities are part of helping us define that.

Megan Galardi I think that's really interesting, because I think that that's also something that I realized through my research is that maybe the models that we have here in Philly, which are really membership oriented kind of models of artists run spaces, specifically, are different than maybe other places where it's not that same model. So I think that's really interesting, the way that it is based on a city approach and seeing that there's different approaches in different places. So yeah, and Claire Eide also speaks to what Dulcee was talking about earlier with kind of the like the density of artists run action or artists or initiatives. In cities, there just are so many more that can be so much more targeted to certain sectors or a type of art or a certain type of interaction with the public. Whereas kind of farther from like City metropolitan centers, you get this kind of more all encompassing type of artists run spaces, actions, initiatives, whatever, whatever you want to say.

Megan Galardi I often find myself using the term projects, because it's all sorts of projects or initiatives.

Paddy Johnson I mean, I will say that we do see themes evolve, particularly at the beginning there, there tends to be certain things like a willingness or an interest in doing things before, you know, planning things out completely. So that's something that we see quite frequently. I think, Cory, when you organize the Impractical Spaces event in Kansas City, I think almost everybody who started a space, had a very specific story that did not include a business plan. No. Well, there was one person who had a business plan, but he went to a library to find out how to write one, it was like completely made up.

Claire Eide Yeah, no, it's definitely I mean, it's interesting to see kind of how that works out. Because it's as much as it is about kind of the artists starting the work. It's about what the work will be in the future. So it kind of like that driving passion for change you want to see or projects you want to see accomplished in certain communities.

Cory Imig Yeah. And I think about the project that Dulcee mentioned earlier. So Dulcee , and I went to grad school together in Central Illinois in Champaign Urbana, and Dulcee had come, well, I think during your time in grad school, you're also working at Oxbow, but we had both come from histories of working around and in artists run projects. And so coming to grad school, we are both kind of out of our element. And we're in the middle of Illinois. And we're like, what's going on? Like, what are the artists run projects and there, like Dulcee said, there were a lot scattered all across the state, they just weren't in Champaign Urbana when we were. And so really like our intention for starting Say Uncle, which is this nomadic, like exhibition residency program was really to connect with artists and to connect with the other artists that were running initiatives across the state that were sometimes like one or two hours away. So with our artists run project, we never had a space, it was just kind of like, work popped up where it made sense with whatever artists that was in residence. And then we would travel their work to the other artists run spaces that were within like a two hour radius of where we lived and kind of put put up the work outside of the gallery shows that were opening. So it was a really like, collaborative process with the artist. And it was really unique and experimental. So the artists that worked with us really had to be open to some different, different things.

Dulcee Boehm Yeah, I think you know, a couple of things related to kind of what you're saying, Cory, I think as far as like, the way that that project kind of fit us a particular need, like the way you're describing, like it was, in a way an excuse for us to kind of be to get to know, folks and connect with different folks. And I think, going back to the your kind of original question that started. I think as far as artists run spaces, and like defining some of those characteristics, one that comes to my mind, and I think relates to what what Cory is bringing up with that that project that we did is just the the project's ability to respond to like, very quickly to changing needs or changing circumstances be that, okay, well, we no longer have a, you know, a space or we no longer have, you know, a certain resource, but also particular needs with that are specific to wherever that project is located or, or specific to the folks who are running that project to, because often as Paddy was saying, those consistencies one is definitely changed in terms of who's, you know, who's kind of facilitating running different projects and the changes that of course, happened in those folks lives. So I think, as far as one of those

core characteristics, that's something that I see is that that ability for projects to shift to meet particular needs or changes.

Yeah.

Claire Eide Yeah, that's, that's super interesting. In your process of like, archiving, and you're just like kind of research at this point.

Have you noticed, like, if there was like a trend, where I don't even know If there's data that would support this, but kind of like original intent, or original project goals versus like what actually happened after starting or collaborating with the community partners or kind of with other folks that are involved, if you saw any, any similar trends, and that, again, that maybe it's not something that is so easily measured.

Paddy Johnson I don't know about trends, per se, but one thing that we, that we have done with a number of projects, that is there's they're given the information box that we have with all of them. So there's a questionnaire that people can use or not use, it's up to them, but most of the time we people use it, at least to some degree, that asks some basic questions about how the place get started. But the information box gives you information, like just the basic information like who is the person telling the narrative? When was the organization formed? And importantly, into your question, What, what form like what was the evolution of its form? And so in some cases, the evolution of the form was consistent. It began as a maybe a nonprofit initiative and stayed that way. in very many cases, there were there was a lot of evolution, right. And the, the members who were part of part of it initially, maybe are no longer parts, or participants and that even comes up like a lot of these sort of, there is some basic taxonomy when you start talking about the types of artists run spaces, and sort of how they break down structurally, because there's really only so many ways that business, even if it's not designed to make any money or like a project, let's call it like a project can really run. And so you do see those things, I would hesitate to call them trends so much. It's just just they really are taxonomies. I think one thing that we see in terms of the the thing that I always think about when I think about like certain types of projects that I'm the represent a thematic thread is that both, I think in almost all the projects that we have, like different cities, we weave, with the partners that we have, there's always a space that is both a music venue, and an art space. And those are the ones that tend to have like the craziest stories. Those are the ones like we're in DC, there's like there was a place called Hard Art that had a concert with it was an impromptu concert with the Bad Brains in this space that was like, I don't know the size of a closet. They fit 100 people in there. And it was disgusting. It was the middle of summer. Then they talked about how when they came back, there was just this like sweat ring. Because there were so many people active in that space.

But then in Kansas City, they talked about Cory Do you remember the name of that venue? The where are they taught it? Um, they give a presentation about all the different like superstars they managed to bring into the venue and like it was like a virtual who's who of like 90s rap stars.

Cory Imig Yeah, I think that space was Locus Solace. That space was maybe like 20 years ago. But yeah, it was. It was really interesting hearing that history and how like, the music paired with the art. I would say we hear that a lot.

Dulcee Boehm there's a there's a space here in Grand Rapids that I also don't necessarily wouldn't I wouldn't call this a trend but it is something that we've noticed too. In this space in Grand Rapids is an example of what you're what you're saying Paddy, the music is an all it all ages, music venue called the Division Avenue for the Arts Council and it was collectively run organization that was around I think for a little over 10 years on South Division in Grand Rapids, and then kind of went dormant for a time and is now back with a new completely kind of new group of folks running it. And so it was music and art and several different kinds of community activities happen there too. But it was like kind of foundationally around music and art specifically, but I do think that we've seen that in several different places where there are those those spaces that it's kind of to me, I mean, this might be cheesy, but it's kind of like the folks couldn't, couldn't quite let them go. And so they they have come back in some different form, with maybe that different organization that you're mentioning Patty or some, in this case, a different group of folks who wanted to continue on that work. So that is something that we've seen too. And I would guess, of course, other folks here have have, you know, have seen that, that kind of wave to spaces.

Paddy Johnson You know, one of the things that I think is like most interesting about learning about these different spaces can be the

degree to which cities really shaped the art and different spaces. And that's, I think that is something that is more significant than I maybe realized. So Dulcee maybe you can talk about this a little bit. But you know, I always knew, I mean, if you were sort of following ArtPrize, and like what that is, you probably know that it's a giant public prize, where people have to vote on art that looks like praying mantises, and like, all sorts of terrible things. And sometimes they have some good stuff, but it's like it brings in tons of people, and has really shaped the city. And I feel like that got borne out a little bit in some of the work that that you've done.

Dulcee Boehm Yeah, yeah, that that, that competition, that program or prize, really, really has shifted from my understanding of being out of Grand Rapids, and then kind of coming back into Grand Rapids that that project really shifted all kinds of things structurally in the city. Largely that idea of funding, there used to be an Arts Council, and that that kind of allocated funding, and then with ArtPrize, that the funding structures shifted, but also I think, in a really big way, there's also just real estate is nuts here, I mean, it's completely completely, really, really high priced. And so that, I think, is one of those things kind of getting into that that idea of like urban urban planning, urban development and kind of combining I think what you're saying, Paddy, in terms of the way that that like, like impacts the art, which, of course, are kind of holding hands in this example, where there's not there's not quite as much available space for these projects, maybe available funding, available time in some ways, I think too, and also available attention from from various publics because there's a really, really intensive seasonal attention that that happened has happened for ArtPrize. And now I'm not sure what's going to happen as things shift over the last the last couple years really with that. But I do think that it's a fascinating example of the way that that that kind of like that program really just intersected in the way that I think you're you're talking about Paddy.

Paddy Johnson Yeah, I did see that they're coming back, but apparently without an exhibition structure. So that should be interesting.

Dulcee Boehm Yeah, I really I really haven't heard haven't heard what the structure of that's going to be. I'm curious how that. Yeah, how that might shift things again, in maybe a different way. Yeah.

Paddy Johnson Yeah. And I mean, in Houston to there, I think there's specific ways that Houston is, zoned that sort of allows pop ups to prop up pretty much wherever. So you can have like a really, you can have artists run spaces in very unusual places where they wouldn't normally, in other cities where the zoning is a little bit more. where it works a little differently.

Like Houston scene is really sort of unique in that way. So we were actually fairly close on wrapping up that book. So that should be pretty exciting. And that's, that's run by Pete Gershon. And he's just, He's incredible, incredible historian.

Megan Galardi I think it's Interesting, also, going back to sort of the conversation about music spaces and art spaces, and how they're often in the same place. I've noticed in Philly a lot, it's often different places. And I came to my research about DIY sort of art spaces from a background in DIY punk music spaces, but I've noticed that they're often different and in different locations because of what seems like a lot of zoning issues. So there were in the past spaces that were together and showed art and had music. But a lot of times those places were shut down because of zoning rules. So I think that that's also interesting with, with the points, you touched on that, you know, in other cities that can't really happen so much because of rules about hosting events in certain spaces and not being able to be up to code with that. So in here in Philly, it's, it's a big issue that you can't kind of have those spaces the same way. And that just fire codes and event spaces, it's a little different.

Paddy Johnson I mean, I think one of the interesting things about the project that I think makes a little like fairly unique too, is that, um, I think with a normal publication project, there is almost a sort of random like, okay, we will work within x date and x date. And these will be the parameters. That didn't make sense for us, because we like to let let our city partners decide what they're going to choose, because they are the ones who have the expertise. So they're going to be able to tell us whether realistically, like how far they can go back. So with Kansas City, I mean, we go back more than 100 years, I think with with that history, which is just so incredible, to read, but then we have other histories like the DC history that

we we produce that begins in 1970. And we have I think, with Puerto Rico, which we're also working with, they're going to begin, I believe in 1980. So they all started different times. But we do have a few overlapping decades, you know, there's nobody who has said to us, I'd love to exclude the last 10 years. So we do, we do have the contemporary, Dulcee Boehm and that like that, just like that seems so exciting to me, when I think about the overlap between all those places that you mentioned, Paddy, that are all going to have that information sheet where you can, you can go see what was going on in Kansas City. Meanwhile, you know, this was going on in DC, and they're actually like, pretty much the same, the same kind of space, or maybe are running into similar kind of problems or had similar trajectories like that, like revealing that that history is happening. That's when I get super excited to reveal that, that that is part of this kind of history that we're talking about. Yeah.

Claire Eide I know, that's super interesting, because it points to like greater collaboration and like system engagement that you don't really yeah overtly See, until you do this kind of like, picking of places and doing that sort of like in depth. Kind of like history of a place, I guess. What if, Cory Imig oh, it's just gonna say like, it's so once an artist run space or project closes, really, it disappears so quickly, from people's minds and from the history. So I think even just the research that we've done in Kansas City, I know, Paddy said, We're going back 100 years, we found that there was one corner, one particular intersection, that over the past 100 years, like multiple artist run spaces have inhabited the same storefront. And it was like that knowledge is out there in our art community and in our community in general, but like, it's never been written down. It's never been documented. And so to just be able to say that, and then have this publication and this resource, documenting all of that is, it's, it's really amazing.

Paddy Johnson Yeah, you know, I feel like those types of records tend to exist, you know, if, if a restaurant if it's series of different restaurants occupies a space, it's much more likely that there would be a history of that in part, because those businesses have incorporated and there's like, more of a paper trail around them. A lot of times, we don't have that. And so we have to rely on an oral history or, you know, different types of histories to unearth this information. And it's really sort of significant that we're able to do that because I, you know, the art, the artists community is, I think, maybe tighter knit than I even realized. Because I think there's a lot of communities if you've got a bunch of accountants together and said, hey, let's do in history, they'd be like, see you later.

Claire Eide right. Absolutely, We have a question here from Julie who is asking how the cities are selected especially paying attention to how groups are underrepresented in the historical record, how history is subjective

Cory Imig Yeah, well, you know that is a. So this project let's see we've been working on it for almost two years as the group of three of us, and the ways that we've come up, like, with executing it, we've probably had 20 different versions of how impractical spaces is going to work or how we choose partners or how cities get involved or what the how long the project will last. And then, you know, with COVID It's caused us to rethink everything again. And so that's the question of, you know how we choose our cities and how we choose our partners. You know, I think we're still right now we're trying to finish our first six partners which are, let's see, Puerto Rico, Houston, Portland, Oregon. We're going to republish Baltimore that right, Kansas City, dc, dc, dc, Kansas City, and then there's one more that I knew Grand Rapids, Thank you.Sorry Dulcee you're sitting right there. Yeah. Um, so I think, but you know we've been asking ourselves that question like what, how do we decide on our cities and, and then when we do like how do we pick our partners because this. It's a lot of work. You know we're relying a lot on our partners, and we talk about how impractical spaces as a whole is really like an artist run initiative or an artist run project like we're not, we are a nonprofit organization but that doesn't mean that any of us are making money off of this, this is all project that we're donating our time too. So, when we're inviting people to be partners or when they're saying they want to be partners. We want to make sure they understand the time commitment, and just how big of, a lot of it's a volunteer job. So I think it gets really. It's hard to say, you know, come up with really strict parameters around how we select partners and how we do it because it's, it's not like anyone's getting paid for this work, at least not right now, hopefully in the future, we can get our partners paid right so it's a question that where we're thinking a lot about, and just like artists run spaces in general, require a lot of free time and a lot of free labor. And, you know who has the time and the money to do that. And so I think there's a lot of a lot of questions that we're asking ourselves through this process Claire Eide yeah that's great, thank you so much.

Megan Galardi And then we have a follow up to that from Daniel, and it was a follow up to both Claire's question about tracking changes in mission statements, and Julie's question, he asks, Any thoughts about how changes in recent years from spaces that may either be loosely apolitical or focus on value system of experimentation, who have now switched to be more explicitly oriented around social justice, how can that be tracked and would that be useful.

Paddy Johnson You know I. It's something that I think with Houston we have not been tracking that. And it's something that we might start to revisit. One thing that I have noticed with certain artists are the spaces so like let's take like Tiger strikes asteroid as an example they have many chapters, and I think that they at least originally seems to see, to be loosely apolitical.

And one of the things that Alex Pape told me when I was talking to him maybe six months ago, he said they had taken this time to really kind of think about their internal identity. And what that like what that meant. And they felt that they had always described themselves as an alternative, and then wondered, well, what, what are we an alternative to and a lot of the protests over the summer, and a lot of the things that have come out about various board members and museums that are all kind of gross and icky and like all of that, it became very clear to them that they could run an organization that was not compromised in that way, and that that was part of what their identity was. And I would like to think that that is personally what where I think some of this is going, but they're like what we see artists spaces, being an alternative to now is a system of wealth that we see as corporate, and then baked within that is racial inequity structural like economic inequity all of those things.

Claire Eide No that's. Thank you. Thats a really clear cut answer I also think that that it might have some interesting ties to, like, kind of, the rejection of having like a physical permanent space. In some cases, trying to create, like, trying to create a new version of this system that has been failing in so many ways. Part of that is saying, like, well, we just won't be involved with the real estate business. We won't be involved with trying to like incorporate or do any of like, like the more legal aspects of like becoming a long standing addition to a community.

Cory Imig I think that question of what are we an alternative to is really interesting. And that's something that Dulcee and I actually

talked a lot about when we were coming up with Beyond Alternatives, which I think is actually one night of frustration, how we, how we got to that title, is that that idea of alternatives really gets thrown around a lot, alternatives are all doing like we were talking about earlier, we can classify these spaces, there's the co-op model, thre's the we're going to sell work that pays for our space model, there's like the people that run it pay in model, so there's like you know, a few distinct models that are all alternatives but really they're not alternatives anymore, maybe at one point they were but now they're all done slightly different but there's definitely a model there Claire Eide That's interesting. Really interesting.

Cory Imig Oh and the other thing I was gonna say and Kansas City so what you were talking about Claire of spaces, maybe just saying I'm not going to deal with this system. We've actually seen that happen with a few of the spaces in Kansas City and they went from having a storefront where they were doing a really active program, maybe they had openings every month, they were doing artists talk Series, to being to just existing on an Instagram account. Not that Instagram is a lot better than the real estate market, but, um, and they're totally shifting the way that they, what their goals as a space and how they participate in the art community in Kansas City and nationally. And it's really interesting to just see how COVID is changing, Kansas City, and its artists run and artists community. I think we're going to look a lot different. In a year, I still don't, it's still foggy to me what's going on but I know there's a lot of change and I know a lot of the spaces are going virtual.

Claire Eide Yeah I'll be so interested to see how that all plays out. We do you want to reiterate if anyone has any questions in the chat. We're excited to answer. And I do, I think this question about how you can like, maintain a presence in a place without being a physical like spot to go to like how you remain connected and engaged and like really talking directly with the community that you're in which I, those are all kind of like highlights of what I defined an artist run initiative to me so I think it's really coming to the forefront, now that people are seeing that you can do this sort of work virtually, and then also maybe you should be doing it virtually for all of these kinds of more theoretical reasons in addition to just like ease of convenience, very interesting. Do you do you suspect that the models will change a lot. In the next like, I don't know like two to five years like you're talking about the co op model, or like all of these kinds of like different forms that you've been seeing, do you think COVID will have like a major impact on those structures or just trying to be like actual space or not space that they're in Cory Imig I guess for me. And sorry to cut you off Dulcee but I go back to how artists are going to come out of this pandemic, because the spaces do require you to have extra time and extra income, whether or not these spaces require a lot of money, a lot of them are really just like done on shoestring budgets they might not even call it a budget but it costs money and it costs time and I think if artists come out of the pandemic, I mean it's all individual situations but if. If there is still the time and the money, then I think some of these spaces will start I think we're gonna see really different. I think we're gonna see really different models because I think people's priorities have changed. Speaking with a lot of artists who show work in galleries, a lot of people, a lot of my friends that I've spoken with are questioning whether they're interested in even showing their work anymore why they were showing it before and what their intentions and their goals as an artist are. So I think, um, you know, I think we're gonna see some different things as people are their priorities are shifting and their intentions and the reasons they're making work are becoming more clear.

Dulcee Boehm I was gonna which is interesting after kind of hearing you share that Cory what I was gonna say. Because in, in Grand Rapids where I'm located in Grand Rapids, Michigan, through the, the last year there have actually been several older folks who have actually started spaces in at their homes, in their, in their garages, and then one, one person and like a little part of her home in a way and I think that that, that can seem a little bit different than some of the some of the spaces that we've talked about and some other spaces that I think about as far as the research that I've done here which are started by, you know, maybe some some of those same folks but But 30 years earlier. And so I think there's, there's something I mean it's not, it's not a direct answer to the question in terms of like what is this going to look like or kind of speculating what's going to happen, but that is something that I've noticed in three, three new spaces is is very

significant here. That might not seem like in a larger place that that that might be so much to add into the mix of what's going on but three spaces is really significant. And the particular artists that they're showing as well. I think that that, that is, is a shift, and it's a shift that they are not a storefront, they're people who have, They have the space they have like you're saying Cory, that additional, you know that time, they have to have the space to do this they have resources.

And so, they're, they're thinking about how to restructure, what they do have to make these things kind of happen for for artists and projects, and artist run spaces and ultimately artists themselves so yeah that's that's something that came to mind was a response to your question, Paddy Johnson but I do think that a lot of what you both have said about like the online space becoming more significant so artists will sort of that trend will continue. I think one of the things that's fairly significant has been the mainstreaming of various subscription models and software that easily collects that money so with things like when those types of shifts take place, culturally, then they are bound to affect artists run spaces as well I mean, you're just not going to see artists operating completely separate from the rest of the culture. We are all got a subscription to everything. We're going to get one to artists run spaces too.

Cory Imig Looks like we have another question.

Claire Eide Yes we do. A question from Stephanie who's asking that in the context of places that are tracking histories that are underrepresented, such as One Archives or the Stonewall National Museum and Archives. Do you see a pathway to house or locate permanently, a living archive for national national registry for artist spaces in the U.S., giving the example of Common Fields Phonebook. Even just kind of speaking to what the archive would look like.

Cory Imig Right, I guess, you know, we've kind of talked about that as a group, I've definitely talked about it with a few institutions in Kansas City that are interested in housing just the Kansas City archive. I think as a national project we're still watching this thing take shape, like we've definitely have goals for it like long term goals like 10 15 years out, you know, it's like, Wouldn't it be great if like we had this, so many cities that we could really have like a history of artists run spaces in the United States and, but I think it's really, you know, the project is going to unfold and because there's, it's so collaborative and we have so many partners, we can envision what we think it's going to look like, but we don't really know until it happens. And so, I, I definitely think it would be awesome to have a living archive, I don't know where would make sense to house it or how you know any of that could work but I think you know once we start gathering this research. It would be a good thing. I know in Kansas City there. There's a museum, the Kansas City Museum, and they're interested in housing it, and the Nelson Atkins Museum of Art is interested in housing something like this. And then one of our large nonprofits, the Charlotte Street foundation so it's like, it potentially could live in three different places, just in Kansas City. So I think if there's this much demand, just in this one place, I'm sure. Once we have multiple cities to see.

Dulcee Boehm I really, I really liked that question because I, I kind of wonder. And I kind of wonder about like that idea that there is one place to go for this information. To me, there seems something really rich about having to go to Kansas City, which of course there's issues of access and there's there's all kinds of, there's all kinds of things wrapped up in that in terms of politics. But I do think there's something interesting to me about there not being kind of one place where the information archive would be stored where it would be other places situated in the places where that came, that that information kind of came from, where that history is embedded and so yeah I really I really appreciate that question because I think it speaks to so many of those systems on which we were just kind of talking about of course too. Yeah, that's just that's a thought. Yeah, Claire Eide thank you so much.

Megan Galardi And then we're gonna end on this last question from Anna. She said that she's stuck on this phrase of, you know, it's not like anyone is making any money doing this. So what are the motivations for dedicating time and money to these places.

And where's the power in being artist-run?

Dulcee Boehm I think. I think one of one of the to answer that second or respond rather to that second bit, what, where's the power in being artists run. I think oftentimes artists run spaces projects platforms initiatives whatever we want to call them, that they're often the places that are willing to take risks with artists and show folks that, that don't necessarily in terms of galleries or museums that are much larger scale, that don't necessarily have access to those particular places so I think that artists run places projects can be really, really, really essential for artists to understand their own work to be in community with other people. They're huge for artists, and I think that that is powerful.

Paddy Johnson I think fundamentally, you, you have to value learning, you know, because so much of what this work is is about that and if you find value and power in learning, which I think you, we would, we all do here, like that is where a lot of that power comes from.

Cory Imig Yeah and I think about my own history with artists run spaces and just how strong of a community, so it may not have. I may not walk away with like money in my pocket because I've participated in these projects, but as an artist walking away with collaborators, such as Dulcee and Paddy and having these lifelong relationships that are constantly influencing my work as well as experiences that have taught me so much about my own art career as well as learning about the art careers of know hundreds of artists across the United States. It's, there's just no other way to get that.

Claire Eide Thank you. Thank you so much for talking with us today. Paddy, Cory, and Dulcee really just added like there's so much to think about when it comes to artist run spaces how they're existing in the US and why it's important to pay attention to them while they are existing before a new one crops up in its place. So thank you everybody for joining, we really really appreciate it. Please, we'll drop, Megan and I will drop our emails in the chat here, if anybody has any questions, please feel free to reach out to us. And thank you so much for joining. Thank you all.