L U F R E D N O W
s e u g o R & s r e t c a Ch ar
l l a h s r a M m a h a Gr . . . e l p o e p ow n o k o t g n i t t e G e m i t g n o l , f or a lo ng
MyStoryUK “everybody has a story to tell”
YouTube RecoveryChannelUK
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
Graham Marshall
WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues
Getting to know people . . . for a long, long time.
Simon Hello Graham, I was wondering if you might like to tell us a bit about how you got involved in Spitalfields Crypt Trust and how that is for you? Graham Ok . . . um . . . It’s a very old story, but just thinking about it whilst you were talking, there are two key events really that led me to coming here. One was when I was about 19. I robbed an old lady in the streets and that was like one of the final things I did in a life that was sort of going down the tubes really. Before my life turned around I realised um . . . I don’t know how to say this. Simon How did it happen? 2
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
Graham I had been to a good school. I had been asked to leave school when I was about 15 for stupid behaviour. I did a whole range of jobs after that, different sorts of jobs. I started taking drugs as a way of making contact, making friends and all that sort of thing. As I say, it culminated one night in me robbing an old lady, partly because my friend was going to rob her and he was a bit of a lunatic. So I decided I couldn’t risk him robbing this old lady, bizarre as that sounds, so I robbed her. But I got caught and I was in a police cell, thinking, “What on earth are you doing? Where is your life going? You just robbed an old lady?” And um . . . that was a really horrible moment. When I left there I continued on the same path in the same sort of life for a little bit longer. And then I met a Christian, who said that I could have a new start in life and go in a new direction. Very briefly, I went and lived with him for a couple of weeks during which time I actually started to become a Christian. I then went to a rehabilitation centre in Gloucester for people who had been using drugs although I don’t consider that I was a drug addict. It was a Christian centre and I wanted to learn more about what it was to be a Christian, which I did. I was there for about 14 months.I then wanted to be either a youth worker, at that time I was about 21, a youth worker or an evangelist. 3
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
I did a whole range of things voluntarily in those two areas. In the mean time I got a job in a garage and I worked there for two years until I had a fight one day. And um . . . . (laughs) After two years in the garage I thought, “This is ridiculous, I’ve got to leave here. I’ve got to move on.” It wasn’t where I wanted to be, wasn’t the sort of . . . So I handed in my notice. Then I applied for a job in youth work which, when I went, I didn’t really think was the right place for me. It didn’t feel right, odd as that sounds. I went to a Christian missionary organisation in London to be, you know, to train to be an evangelist. That just didn’t feel right either and I came to the Crypt . . . of Christ Church which I didn’t think I would like at all. It wasn’t to do with young people and it wasn’t to do with evangelism. It was about helping people in a very simple practical way but I loved it. Absolutely fantastic. From that second I wanted to be there. So I spent a year working with homeless people who were drunk, dirty, smelly and hungry . . . amazing, wonderful, sometimes unpleasant, occasionally difficult . . . lousy, soaking wet etc. but I had a wonderful, wonderful year. And then I went to Bible school for a year. I phoned up at the end of that and spoke to somebody I had worked with in the Crypt and he said, “Why don’t you come and do my job,” which was at that time called Deputy Warden. It was a very small team, only about five of us worked there. There was a Warden, Deputy Warden and a couple of volunteers and when he said that, although I was shocked to the core, I sort of instantly knew it was the job for me, because it was everything I liked doing. So I went back there, that was probably about 1978 maybe 1979. 4
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
I’ve been back there ever since really, doing different jobs. We are a bit bigger as an organisation, but it’s essentially similar work for me. I think, what I’ve always done, what I’ve always enjoyed doing was just getting to know people, that was it really. I think I’ve always enjoyed that part of it, that was what was important to me. And I’ve done that for a long, long time. Obviously over the years my role has changed a bit so that I’m much less involved with people, with clients than I was. I’m trying to do the same job but through other people really. That’s a quick summary of how I got here. Any other things you can think of that I should be talking about? Simon I’m sure that you’ve come across many different people from many different walks of life through the jobs that you have been doing here. I wonder if there is someone else’s life, if you don’t mind me asking, that has touched you in a special kind of way? I know for me everybody is special and you do get occasions when you meet someone where you feel that you can totally relate to where they are coming from. Even though your own life story is very different yet somehow there is an essence that is on the same level, something clicks. Something which relates to your life though meeting another person’s life? 5
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
Graham Its um . . . I’m not sure that that’s how it’s been for me really. I think I felt extremely privileged and blessed when I really began to meet people with serious problems. I began to feel so fortunate and blessed that I’d never got to that point. When you meet people, well I don’t want to go into details but you know, addiction leads people into all sorts of dreadful situations and circumstances, illnesses and things like that. I’ve been just so glad that I was spared from anything like that. I really was, I was um . . . but I do know a little about everything in a way. I mean when I was 17, I was up around Piccadilly trying to live and survive around Piccadilly but only for a few days, really. Because we really didn’t cope at all you know. We slept in Dean Street reception centre around Soho. It was just mind blowing. They strip you off and you have to shower and they cover you in louse powder and stuff like that which was totally you know . . . and I’m thinking, “Why are you doing this to me?” Simon Where was that? In a hostel kind of place? 6
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
Graham Yes, it was a government place called a ‘spike’ in those days. We were meeting people in there but nobody told us where we could eat for instance. Nobody told us about Day Centres or any places like that, so we didn’t have a clue how to survive in London apart from criminality really. As I say, my friend would have been quite capable of turning to some sort of violent crime to survive. But that wasn’t the way. I wanted to survive really and live, so we ended up going back home. Fortunately I had a home to go to. I really genuinely had a home to go to. So that was fantastic, really. I think that I’ve always just enjoyed and loved meeting the people that I have. Right from day one, you know I can still remember by name all the people that I met and got to know in my first year and their characters. You know George Ravinal, Andy Cap, Barney Groves, Brian Bigwig, people that I knew so, so well. Desperate people in desperate circumstances who all died on the streets. All died on the streets over many years and in many different ways. Rogues and villains but wonderful characters as well, you know. At the funeral of one of them I went up to the sister of George Ravinal and started talking to her about India where they had been brought up and where George had been an inspector in 7
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
the Indian police force. She told me, they had never been in India, ever! Barney Groves told us he’d been in a Japanese prisoner of war camp. When we introduced him to a Salvation Army officer, who had been in a Japanese prisoner of war camp, we asked Barney which one he’d been in and he said, “Stalag 5,” which clearly wasn’t Japanese. You just realise you’re a total mug for believing everything you’re ever told. Clearly Andy Cap wasn’t his name, that was another chap. And Brian Bigwig, who was called ‘Gordie’ but he was from Cumbria who, even after 10 years, I couldn’t understand a word he said because he had such a strong accent, and such a damaged face, quite honestly. Stories like that. Some wonderful, wonderful people though . . . and I always just felt it was a privilege, a real genuine privilege to work with people and serve them. When people would come in, soaked to the skin, to actually be able to completely change them was fantastic, and dress wounds, whatever. I just loved to be able to love people practically. Actually I think it’s still what it’s all about. It might well be that you can’t help somebody very much at all and you might not make a huge difference to the way they are living their life. 8
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
But if you can just sometimes . . . If you can just love people where they are for who they are, in whatever way you can, that’s all you can do. And that’s a great deal sometimes really. I think to just give people time. I’ve spent thousands of hours, years ago, talking and listening to people who just talked, who would be upset and drunk or whatever, but just talking and giving people time, being with people and being someone they can talk to. I’ve had some amazing experiences, one or two fearful ones, but not many (laughing). But um . . . Ya. So I don’t . . . it was never really about identification because as I say, I was only a few days around Piccadilly really living rough. Not enough that I could really identify with somebody who’d been doing it for years. There’s no comparison. Simon Going back, you said you had robbed the old lady. Do you think that was your turning point? Graham Oh, yeah, absolutely. A policeman came into the cell and wanted to batter me and I don’t blame him. But I think he was . . . I think he just saw that I was so pathetic and actually upset with myself at what I’d done, that he didn’t bother quite honestly. I think he would have been happy to batter me. I really had no excuse for such behaviour. You know, I didn’t have . . . I wasn’t battered as a child . . . hit by my Mum of course, but you know what I mean. I didn’t have those excuses. I had parents who cared about me, I had a home. I had no reason to be going in that direction, particularly the way I was going, but that’s where I was going and I kept going that way. 9
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
I’m still in many respects a weak person. I don’t know about the word ‘vulnerable’ but weak in many, many ways. I’m just the same weak person that I was 30 years ago and I’m conscious of that. In some respects we remain the same people with the same weaknesses and vulnerabilities, hang ups and issues etc. etc. Simon I think I can agree with you there but I think we have choices. Not necessarily to become stronger but other aspects of us can shine through our journey. Obviously all of as are on a journey, well not just here at Spitalfields but I think through the interaction we have with others, that journey can deepen and other aspects of what is actually lying dormant in us can start to shine in different ways. So like you say, weaknesses can still be there but we can find strengths that are new positive strengths, where we are strong and they help us with our weakness that, like you say, we all have. Graham Its great isn’t it to be involved in people’s lives? You know the same as me, in the short time that you have been with us, its just wonderful to see people grow and make progress. 10
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
Sometimes its very slow but it happens, doesn’t it? You see people just smiling more, laughing more, a bit more confidence, a bit more weight on them, a bit more strength, a bit more interest in life, better mannered or whatever it is. Just getting on better with people. Simon Also more able and more willing to actually show their weaknesses as well, which is an incredible thing. Graham Yes. Simon Working at Acorn House rehab on Fridays, I meet a lot of people and they can be very “I’m hard,” sort of attitude. As layers come off, you see maybe they are still hard all right but there is something very special about them as well which . . . its like taking off the wrappers and you start seeing the light shining through. I should shut up! Graham No, go on! Simon Well I’ve found, since being the “story catcher” here at the Spitalfields Crypt Trust catching stories from people involved here, life stores have been coming towards me from outside sources. I had to catch a coach last week and I sat at the back and there was some guy there. He started chatting to me. I’m not someone that starts conversations really. So in some ways doing what I do here has helped me actually approach people. 11
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
Anyway, he started chatting. He was a lorry driver, long distance and for two hours he told me about lorry driving and some of the scrapes he’d had, accidents, fantastic stuff. He was doing all the sound effects then he asked me what I was doing. I told him I’d been addicted to drugs and was now collecting life stories and then he started opening up about the fact that he’d lost his daughter. Not through drugs or anything, she’d committed suicide. He was very open and very candid about how it had happened. I sat there thinking, “Well, I’m sure he doesn’t tell everybody that story.” So I feel I’m on a journey now through the work I’m doing here at the Hanbury and being involved in Spitalfields. What’s wonderful is that we are going to get the stories printed and published, get them out there and circulated so that more people can get to know and read other peoples experiences, voiced by people ready and willing with their consent to allow others into their lives. I feel very privileged to be part of that. It’s fantastic! Graham When you say that story, you say, “This man lost his daughter,” I actually . . . I almost feel that you know . . . When you say that, that almost hurts me, genuinely it does. I just go . . . 12
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
Now I don’t know if that’s because I have a daughter or what. I think I’m just pleased that I feel . . . that actually I really do and I’m glad that you do too. It’s amazing, it’s wonderful that he was prepared to open up to you. Simon The other side of it was, I’d told him I’d had an addiction and he’d said, before he told me about his daughter, that he’d never taken drugs, never drunk. If he’d wanted to, he’d had enough in his life to actually fall into that. Then he talked about his daughter yet he didn’t find solace through drugs or drink. He obviously survived through other means the fact that he’d lost his daughter. Graham What gets me is that, really it’s obvious, that everyone’s got a story, haven’t they? You can look at anyone and you just think or could just think “Oh . . . it’s all right for you.” But everyone’s got a story, if its not a son or a daughter, its a mother or father, brother or sister or something and we are not the only ones who have had a mucked up life. If you know what I mean, whatever the cause is. For me sometimes its about being glad to be involved, I say involved in the business but I don’t mean it that way. 13
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
I’d rather be involved on the side of trying to heal than trying to hurt or harm. Do you know what I mean? You know out there, having a good old drink tonight or whatever, I’m not really interested. I’m not against drink. It’s a lifestyle that wants to be interested and involved in people lives rather than, “Just me and my life is all that matters and my satisfaction and enjoyment and point of view” and all that. I think it’s important for all of us to meet people. After I robbed that lady for instance I was just so . . . I wanted to cry my eyes out. I was in a pub one night and I just wanted to, I felt so desperately bad. There was a bloke there who I worked with, loosely worked with, he was a scouser. He’d been divorced and was much older then me. I had to tell this guy what I’d done because I felt such a weight of guilt and shame I suppose, although I don’t think I would have used those words at the time. I just know I felt bad and I thought, “This man has been divorced. Maybe he knows something about pain and sorrow, sadness or guilt or remorse or whatever.” I was aware that I needed to talk to ‘somebody’ in a pub, get drunk, to more or less a stranger. 14
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
He just happened to be on the same sort of gang of workers that I was involved with. Don’t know what he thought of some bloke suddenly telling him he’d robbed some old lady in the street. I want to be on the other side of things now and I am you know, making a difference in whatever small way and I still love it. I love sitting in my office and looking down seeing new people cleaning out the front of the church. You know, working with Sean in the gardens and I always say, “Who’s that? Who’s that? Where’s he from?” It’s a genuine interest. It’s always been there, its still there and I’m grateful for that. I’m grateful to God for that really its not just about, “I’m a good bloke,” if you know what I mean. I actually think that God said to me, “ . . . “ I wanted to be a youth worker or I wanted to be an evangelist and its almost like God said, “I don’t want you to be either. I don’t want you to work with sixteen year olds. I don’t want you to work just preaching the gospel in the street to people. I’ve got something a bit different that is a little bit unglamorous.” For many years it was just about talking to people, changing their trousers, pants and socks or whatever and giving people time and a sense that people care about you. I’ve just seen so many people. There was a Jimmy McSweeney. 15
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
I used to think, “That’s the best name in the world. I’d love to have been called Jimmy McSweeny.” Great name (chuckles). What an amazingly ridiculous character he was. You could barely understand him - no teeth, strong Irish accent, battered old face. Nicest bloke you could meet but he had to make out that he was the biggest rogue you were ever going to meet, you know. And he used to take his dog for a walk (laughing). We used to have someone from the DSS come down to the Crypt and they bought their Dalmatian dog with them. Jimmy used to take the dog for a walk and he’d come back making out that he’d sneaked into the butchers and nicked a pound of prime beef. You just knew it was all rubbish but he had to tell you about all these little scams that he’d pulled. It would just be wonderful to be part of his life but then eventually, he would drink again. He’d come straight back when he’d fallen and smashed his head in, blood down his face and that’s just . . . I don’t know, It’s just . . . But there were many times in that man’s life, for many months, when he was amongst people who loved him and cared for him and did love him, cared and befriended him. I don’t honestly remember how, how Jimmy died, how and when, where, the exact circumstance but um . . . (clears throat) people like that are very important. 16
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
In my history I still love to think about Jimmy and picture him going off with this blooming dog, telling us you know with a nod and a wink, “I’m going down to get this and get that.” Yes, he is more likely to put his hand in his pocket and buy the dog some beef than steal it. Life with the Spitalfields Crypt Trust has been full of wonderful characters and wonderful rogues. Like the one I mentioned earlier, Barney Groves. I was walking down Bethnal Green Road one day and noticed a turning which was actually called Barnet Grove. I immediately laughed to myself thinking, “He’s probably just invented his name one day when he was walking along and saw Barnet Grove. Wonderful characters and wonderful rogues, that’s what Barney was. But the things I remember most about him were when he held his hand out he’d say, “My hand to my heart.” And he’d also say, and I’ve never forgotten this either, “Its nice to be nice.” I think that’s really true. I learnt those things from Barney Groves or whatever his real name was. 17
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
Moving on more to the present day, one of the things that I find really exciting is the development of what we call ‘service user involvement.’ Some of the work we are involved with today we are working very hard to see that it is service user led. That the people who use our services have an input into it, that they help to plan and direct and help it to develop into the future. People like me can be well intentioned, we may have some good ideas, but I’ve always needed to learn from those I work with. That’s where I get all my knowledge and experience. I think the future is very much about involving people in the development of running services, those who use the services. People like me and my staff and volunteers actually need to be much more accountable than we ever were in the past to the people who do use our services. I don’t think they can have complete control of the services because at some stages in a person’s recovery, they are not ready for that. But in their later stages, I think listening and involving people is really, really important. That’s the most exciting thing for me that’s going on in the services that Spitalfields Crypt Trust provides at the moment. Simon Well thank you very much Graham. I totally agree with you.
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MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
I think its important that people are involved and they feel part of it, then carry it as well. They carry it with them and if they are touched by what they are doing by being involved, it helps to get away from the criteria of “them and us.” If they feel part of it they don’t feel the “them and us”, they feel part of the big whole. And that is important. Thank you very much Graham and keep up the good work. Graham You’re very welcome. Thanks very much, well done. You’re doing a good job.
Graham
Simon
Published by MyStoryUK interview by SimonB 2009 (New Hanbury Project) photos SimonB design RodB the Spitalfields Crypt Trust www.sct.org.uk and the New Hanbury Project 020 7613 5636 3 Calvert Avenue London E2 7JP paper January 2012 online ISSUU December 2012 RecoveryChannelUK@gmail.com lots of short films on YouTube RecoveryChannelUK online books at ISSUU MyStoryUK 19
MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
Feel free to share this heartwarming story with your family and friends. For paper copies please contact Spitalfields Crypt Trust Janice Taylor 020 7613 5677 janice.taylor@sct.org.uk 116 - 118 Shoreditch High Street London E1 6JN.
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MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
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MyStoryUK Graham Marshall “WONDERFUL Characters & Rogues”
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MyStoryUK “everybody has a story to tell”
MyStoryUK “everybody has a story to tell”
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