20 Extended Questions with Howard Choy

“The best horses in the world have natural abilities, when they walk slowly they seem to be in a state of forgetfulness, when they gallop fast, they run like wind and leave the dust far behind, but they do not know where such skills come from.”

Zhuangzi

Icame across Howard Choy’s The Feng Shui Architect's Blog, accidentally whilst researching for an article I was writing several years ago. The article — Whose Line Is It Anyway? [Part one of which was published in Lift Hands Volume 10, June 2019] — would go on to become a book, something which I had never originally envisioned, in 2021.

The ‘article’ I had stumbled upon was entitled, Discipleship, Snake Style Taijiquan and Erle Montaigue. It wasn’t really an article, but rather a question he had been asked and he had written down his response on his blog. Although brief, it contained a treasure trove of history [“… a first-hand record of what went on in the 70s and 80s as compare[d] to now, from my perspective,” as Howard Choy put it].

The main thing which had caught my eye originally was the name of Erle Montaigue, my teacher, in the title. Erle had passed away a couple of years earlier, so it intrigued me to say the least. Howard wrote that he “knew Erle quite well,” when they were both living in Sydney and that he would regularly practice with him and his students every Sunday.

He also went on to confirm that Erle had been offered ‘discipleship’ by the Yang family [in 1981] — as had he, himself, earlier! Both had declined the offer which was based upon serious financial commitments and not on merit or for the sake of the art. Howard Choy states this clearly… “Looking back, when discipleship is based on

a financial arrangement with a territorial right and not on genuine commitment to the art and skill, it seldom works out well.”

I had argued this very point in Whose Line Is It Anyway? — A point to which we will return a little further down the line.

Having read Howard Choy’s blog, further questions arose in my mind and I hoped to contact him. However, as always, life seems to get in the way. I eventually became preoccupied with my own school and pathway post Erle’s death in 2011, until I finally walked away from his organization in 2016. I have covered this period extensively in my articles and books — no need to regurgitate stuff here! Of course, 2016 was also the year I began Lift Hands Magazine, the purpose of which initially was to get things of my own chest. The magazine grew organically and has become a small phenomenon in such a short space of time, thanks to the several wise heads who joined me!

During the global pandemic lockdown, I started organising my notes and in 2021, I published Whose Line Is It Anyway?

Whilst going through my notes, I was reminded of Howard Choy. I hoped that he was alive and healthy [Covid sadly took many lives as we know] and decided that if he was agreeable, I’d interview him for the magazine. From his blog, I knew that he was living in Berlin and initially I thought of flying across and meeting him in person — again, if agreeable. Alas! Once again, life had other plans and I had to shelve the idea of flying out, however, I was determined to make contact and had envisaged the December 2022 issue in which to place the interview, if it were possible.

Finally, in November, I managed to find a way to contact Howard, thanks to social media [there were no direct contact details on his blog which I could find and it appeared it hadn’t been updated in a while]. I wrote to him excitedly and introduced myself and asked him if he would do the magazine the honour of interviewing him either online or via email?

He replied rather promptly, “Hi Nasser, it is easier if you can send your questions here and I will try to answer you asap, when I have a bit of free time.”

I had Colin Power — my brother from another mother — visiting me from Australia during the month of November, I excitedly told him to sit and watch some TV whilst I ran up to my study to format the questions. As soon as I had finished formatting the questions, I sent them and within 48 hours, I had received them back in an extensive ordered reply!

Howard Choy’s answers were illuminating and matter of fact in his telling. There was much in his answers which I already knew, however, his replies had shed further light on one or two things for myself. What stood out for me the most though were his answers to questions pertaining to Yang Shouzhong — the eldest son of Master Yang Cheng-fu. They appear, at least in my personal opinion to indicate a family in decline, “…teaching for a living” and “not that much interested in what the students are doing…” with lessons being “strictly business”!

Yang Shouzhong

Howard Choy had been a private student of Yang Shouzhong between 1978–1980 in Hong Kong!

His views on ‘family’ and ‘lineages’ as well as other things coincided with my own.

As I have mentioned above, I had argued this very point myself in Whose Line Is It Anyway? Further in an interview a few years back with Combative Corner, I discussed the myth of lineages. A lineage does not necessarily translate into knowledge or understanding. A person sharing the same name as Einstein [through blood or otherwise], or being taught by him doesn’t automatically inherit his intelligence or knowledge! — I was asked:

What's one of the biggest martial arts myth(s) that you wish more people knew the truth of?

I had replied:

Whilst there are many obvious ones that will come to most people’s mind like, for example, no touch knockouts, I’m going to be a little controversial here and say the myth of lineages!

Whenever, I come across a discussion I see folk instantly bring lineage into the conversation and the authenticity of their line and as if this somehow places their knowledge and skill above others. Authenticity of the skill and knowledge of the master does not necessarily translate to knowledge skill, full-transmission and understanding to their students or off-spring!

A teacher should be looked upon with merit according to their own skill and understanding of the subject matter — Yes, of course their pedigree will and should matter — but one should not take their pedigree/lineage alone as a confirmation of their knowledge and skill or that they have received full-transmissions. The Yangs of old taught tens of thousands in their lifetimes, yet we only have a handful of their students who rose to the challenge to continue their art and in most cases these students were not necessarily their natural off-spring! Majority of their students fell by the wayside, or trained slackly, or left too soon to set themselves up as ‘masters’ — this is something which is confirmed in the historical documents which have survived.

Sadly, we also have ample examples in history where lineages have been bought or sold and do not necessarily represent skill or knowledge. Equally, after the cultural revolution, once the ‘bamboo curtain’ went up, many martial artists set themselves up in Taiwan, Hong Kong and in the West claiming ‘masterships’ or lineages of renowned families in China, when this simply wasn’t true. Some had only trained with them for a few months or even weeks and later claimed they had been disciples for a number of years!

Self-appointed masterships continue to this day and lineages can be bought with martial arts having become a multi-billion pound industry and business.

So, beware the myth of a lineage!

Howard’s answers had also reminded me of an article I had read a few years back, authored by the late Gabriel Chin — Can We Tell The Truth? — which appeared in the book, Nei Jia Quan: Internal Martial Arts, Teachers of Taijiquan, Xing Yi Quan and Ba Gua Zhang, published in 2004 by Jesse O’Brien, in which he writes:

What is “Tai Ji Quan”?

In a way this question has no answer... it is because Tai Ji Quan is now — how shall we put it — a kind of business, so some sharp dealers try very hard to include a whole lot of foolish Chinese stories, traditions and mythology. In a way the purpose is to decorate it, or apply some make-up, but when the make-up is overdone, Tai Ji has lost its true form.

Very unfortunately, at the time Tai Ji started to invade Western culture, it came in as a kind of commercial goods... The purpose of doing business is to make money. So as long as one can make money, let the end justify the means. Also, we all know, packaging is very important to any product, so Tai Ji with mythology as packaging has more persuasive power. Thus the Western nations, especially English-speaking Americans with the business idea, changed their traditional attitude toward the scholastic research. Instead of trying to search for the facts and truth, Tai Ji merchants adopted the Chinese business principle which is, “I say so because I know it’s so. If you cannot disprove me then what I said is true.”... According to the fundamentalist belief, you’re not supposed to know why, and you’re not supposed to express whether you understand or not, you just go ahead and believe... To this extent the English-speaking people have to take a certain responsibility.

We lament today, how martial arts are run primarily as a business with the arts themselves, sadly, not even taking second place. Yet, it would appear that the phenomena is not new, it started a long, long time ago with the difference being that today, we can disseminate that commercialism at a far quicker rate in the age of the internet!

However, as always, I digress!

The interview is in two parts.

The first part deals primarily with Yang Shouzhong, Yang Taiji and Erle. Part two contains our traditional 20 Questions.

Having read Howard Choy’s answers to the 20 Questions, made me wish even more that I had carried out the interview in person! For myself, personally, his answers represent a grand soul, with many more stories to tell… stories which I would have happily sat listening to late into the night and the early hours of the morning!

The interview appears here in its entirety — unedited, with nothing omitted. In a couple of places I have added a footnote to clarify or expand on a point — that’s all.

In brief, Howard Choy [Cai Hong in Mandarin and Choy Hung in Cantonese], is a practicing martial artist and architect born in Guangdong, China, raised in Sydney Australia, and currently residing in Berlin. His training resume reads like a Who’s Who — having been a private student of Yang Shouzhong and since 1993 began his training in Chen Style with no less than Chen Xiaowang. I will let him continue…

Part One

LH: Welcome to Lift Hands Magazine Shifu Choy! It is an honour to have you here and share your valuable time with our readership. How old were you when you began your martial arts training and what made you want to train in Taijiquan?

Howard Choy

HC: My parents sent me from Hong Kong to my grandfather in Sydney Australia, when I was only 13+, to continue my education, I missed home very much at the time and looked for something “Chinese” to do. Subsequently, I met up with an old gentleman (Oldman Chan), who said he studied Taijiquan in Shanghai with Yang Cheng-fu, so I went to see him every week and started to learn Taijiquan with him. After a while, it turned out that he only remembered the first section of the Yang long form, being a student in a class of 100s of students, but that was enough to stimulate my life-long interest in the Chinese Qi energetics.

LH: You trained as a private student with no less an authority then Master Yang Shouzhong — the eldest son of the legendary Yang Cheng-fu… what was it like to train with him and how did you get to meet and train with him in the first place?

HC: After Oldman Chan, I met up with Li Iu-ling, to first continue to study Taijiquan and then Choy Lee Fut (CLF) kung-fu with him. He also did some group class with Yang Cheng-fu, when he came down to Guangzhou to teach with his son, Yang Shou-chung, in a Buddhist temple called Dafo Si. When I finished my architectural study in 1978 and went to work in Hong Kong, he said I should look up Yang Shou-chung, and I did with a letter of introduction from him.

When I first contacted the Yang family, it was Mrs. Yang who returned my phone call, via the Australian architectural firm that I worked for at the time, she asked for my background and much to my surprise, she also checked out, through the office-manager, roughly how much I earned being an expat!

LH: What was Master Yang, himself, like?

HC: The feeling I have, for the duration of the two years that I studied with him, was that he was teaching for a living, he was not that much interested in what the students are doing, for example, he seldom physically demonstrates a movement in front of me, he instructed in Mandarin with a heavy accent, what my body and limbs should be doing, and corrected me by adjusting my postures while I am holding a pose. When I asked him how a movement is used in fighting, he said to look up his father’s book on applications.

While I was there, I never met another student, even though I went there two times a week for the two years. Once I got smart and waited until another student after me to turn up and then knocked on the door, but they never answered the door, so I waited for the other private student after me to finish his class, to catch him on the stairway and to have a chat with him. It turned out that he was a Chinese expat dentist from Canada and he has been studying a year longer than me, and he is now into the long form, after the standard 108 Yang family form that I was learning as well.

Looking back, in the end, I learned the Yang family movements thoroughly, but nothing else much more than that.

LH: You knew my teacher Erle Montaigue when he was living and teaching in Sydney. How would you describe your relationship with him?

HC: We had a friendly relationship, we joked and laughed a lot and I remembered we went to the Sydney Observatory Hill to practice push-hands each Sunday morning, and I encouraged him to teach instead of making music, which earns a lot less regular income than teaching Taijiquan a few times a week and he had a family to support. I was reluctant to keep up with the friendship when he made the decision to be controversial,

rather not to be known at all. I thought he behaved badly when he stormed out of a demonstration by Huang Sheng-shyan in Surrey Hills, yelling at the top of his voice, because one of his top students, Tony Ward, had decided to switch camp and went to study with Huang instead of staying with him, as his disciple and assistant.

LH: Erle trained under Master Chu King-Hung in London in the 70s before going on to train with Chang Yiuchun (a student of Yang Shou-hou). He was originally invited by Master Yang to come train with him in 1979 an offer he took up in 1981 when he went to visit Master Yang in Hong Kong, accompanied by Master Chu as per custom… were you still in Hong Kong at the time or had you moved on?

HC: No, I was not there in 1981, I returned home to Sydney already by then.

LH: Erle was offered to become the Yang Family representative — something you have already verified in one of your blogs — as were you yourself… and you both refused! Erle told me that he refused on principle after being told about the financial arrangements. Was this typical? What I mean is, did merit and skill of the student not matter over the financial contributions?

HC: It was not only the financial arrangement, paying Yang Sou-chung USD 30,000 and collect membership fees every year for him to become his disciple, which would have put a lot of strain on my family and my work, but the fact that I did not feel I know enough about his Taijiquan to be his family representative in Australia, that stopped me from taking up the offer.

LH: When you trained with Master Yang, was your training martial oriented or primarily health based? Did Master Yang teach any of the old methods or forms usually associated with his uncle Yang Shou-hou?

HC: No, it was not martial orientated, nor it was health orientated either and we never talked about fighting nor applications, nor any health-related stuff, nor anything associated with his uncle Yang Shou-hou. I was just learning the form and he corrected me a couple of times, re-starting from the beginning to the end, movement by movement. There were no warm-ups, no small-talks and no applications, it was strictly business doing the form over and over again during each of the one-hour private lessons. We have never gone overtime once in the two years.

LH: In Taijiquan, we have the large two-person San-Shao (Pauchui)… Erle was also taught a small San-shao by Master Chu, based upon the postures of Grasp Sparrow’s tail up to and including Single Whip. This was corrected by Master Yang in Hong Kong during Erle’s visit. He also gave him further tips on the training method. Erle was under the impression based upon what had been intimated by Master Chu that Master Yang had developed this method based upon The 13 Dynamics in order to add a more Yang training element for the student’s study. Are you familiar with this training method as there are not many people practicing it or even aware of it?

HC: No, I am not familiar with this small San-shao by Chu and I am not aware that Yang Shou-chung teaches this technique either. I think it would have come from Chu or someone else and not from the Yang family. I remembered when I asked Yang Shou-chung about the different training techniques that I have seen in the different books, magazines and videos, his reply was like Fu Zhong-wen, that everything that you’ll need to know, is in the Yang family form, there is no two-man practice form of any kind, nor there is an old form or a fast form. The so-called long form is just that, more repetitions.

I have a feeling that Chu, and Erle for that matter, made up a lot of the stuff, to continue to make a living out of his students and to hold onto them. It is a natural evolution, if Taijiquan is to become a financial pursue. Chen Xiao-wang and Chen Yong-fa, as far as I know, do the same, made up different routines all the time, for the students to practice their skills, in a different way.

LH: Upon Master Yang’s death in 1985, you went to visit all his disciples… why did Master Chu refuse to see you in person and why was Yang Ma-Lee such a divisive figure?

HC: I went to see Ip Tai-tek first with Chen Yong-fa (CLF fifth generation direct descendant) and I had an “incident” with Ip, on the rooftop of his house in Pok Fu Lam, it was by accident, which was not meant to be, I was there to learn. I think Chu may have heard of this and avoid to see me, for I could be troublesome, but this is only my guess, I don’t know why and he did not tell me why he does not want to see me, every time I asked him, he said I should see Ma-Lee instead and I did, in her house in Causeway Bay.

HC: Ma-Lee received me with her husband and Mrs. Yang was also there at the time, I did not find her to be a divisive figure, she was cordial and friendly to me, but I would imagine a lot of Yang Shou-chung’s students and the 3 recognized disciples, would not think she has the skill to take over the family role.

I also went to see Chu Gin-soon in Boston, trying to continue my study in Yang Taijiquan, Chu had some impressive students, but in the end, it was Chen Xiaowang, who taught me more about Taijiquan than any other teachers that I had before and after him.

LH: There are folks teaching the Yeung Family Style Taiji as opposed to the Yang Family Style Taiji here in the UK (and elsewhere) claiming that the Yeung Family Style is the Taiji taught only to family members and the Yang Style being a commercial version! Would you agree with that? Or is it, as I and others believe, merely a con by unscrupulous teachers — semantics — since Yeung is simply the Chinese way of saying Yang, into duping students to come train with them? What’s interesting is that those who claim this are in no way related to the Yang family, so it also begs the question why non-family members would be taught this if it was for family only?

HC: My experience tells me not to get caught with “family” and “lineage,” yet all my major studies are with lineage holders, in CLF, in Chen and in Yang Taijiquan. Just because they are lineage holders or from the family, it does not guarantee that you will get the best tuition, paying a lot of money will only give you a false sense that you are getting the genuine stuff, because not everyone from the family or from the lineage got what it takes. It depends on the individual and on your luck, I suppose. Looking back, I did not get “it” from Yang Shou-chung, I got “it” from Chen Xiao-wang and Chen Yong-fa instead.

LH: My teacher Erle, himself, had become controversial when he started teaching what he described as the Old Yang Style Taiji way back in the early 80s. Many masters said that there was no such thing, however, archival and historical documentation now clearly shows modifications had been carried out by Master Yang Cheng-fu between 1914-27 to his family style to make it easier for the masses and that there was clearly older and more martial versions of Long Boxing… Erle performed this at the National Wushu Championships in Yinchuan in 1985 in the presence of Master Fu Zhongwen, and was awarded his Mastership by Master Wang Xinwu (VP of The China Wushu Committee)— a disciple of Fu and acknowledged by Master Fu.

What is your view upon the various divisions within Yang Style Taiji?

HC: My personal view resonates with the Chinese philosophical concept of Ti-Yong, or Principle-Function, or simply Body-Usage. Taijiquan, as the name implied, is based on the Taiji Principles and every style within the Yang, as well as within the Chen, the Song, the Fu, or whatever other schools people wanted to make up, whether old and new, traditional or modern, have the same principles and they are the same, but the look, the routine, the application and the usage can differ from master to master, since everyone is different in body and mind. How effective and how efficacious they can be depended on the person and not on the style, the family, or the lineage holder, or otherwise. I cannot do what my teachers do, I have to learn from them and then internalize to make it my own, otherwise it would not be genuine nor “ziran” (being self-thus). My take is if we want to be good at something, we have to spend the time and have the dedication to stay with it, there are no other hidden secrets, except to keep at it, as far as I am concerned.

LH: How do you see the future of Taijiquan?

HC: It depends on what people want, Taijiquan can be a martial art, a health and healing exercise, a Qigong form and even an artistic expression, the principles underlying Taijiquan are very comprehensive and holistic, we can even use the Taiji principles in business and in our daily life, like how to feel secure and peaceful with ourselves and how to keep a relationship alive and lasting. We name it and the Taijiquan principles can come to our rescue, provided that we can understand what they are, deeply and profoundly, the rest is technical.

LH: Thank you so much sir for your answers. In this part, these are fun questions to find out a bit more about the person. You can be as detailed as you like.

If you could have personally witnessed anything, what would you want to have seen?

HC: Master Chu King-hung* throw me off balance, standing third from the front of a long queue of his students!

LH: What would you do if you were invisible for a day?

HC: Watching Yang Shou-chung practicing his form in his Wan Chai studio**.

LH: As a child, what did you wish to become when you grew up?

HC: An artist!

LH: What animal best represents you and why?

HC: A pig, because that is my Zodiac animal, and that is what heaven has dictated to me.

* Many ‘masters’ demonstrate such ‘prowess’ of their qi in order to impress their students or prospective students. These are nothing more than circus tricks with the students usually either in on the act, or being vulnerable to suggestion! Part of the reason why Erle stopped training with Chu was due to this chicanery! Unfortunately, this continues in most forms of martial arts.

** Master Yang Shouzhong [Shou-chung] never publicly demonstrated his form, nor allowed anyone to photograph or film him doing it. His instructions were verbal. This was confirmed to me by Erle whilst recounting his visit to Master Yang in Hong Kong in 1981. There is only a very poor quality film purporting to showing him demonstrate the Yang Long Form, as well as images contained in his book, Practical Use of Tai Chi Chuan: Its Application and Variations.

HC: My greatest strength is my desire to be loved, and my greatest weakness is also my desire to be loved.

LH: What is your favourite memory of any one of your grandparents?

HC: My paternal grandfather sitting on a chair, after a long and hard day’s work in the Chinese market garden he owns, smoking a “Camel” cigarette and drinking a bottle of his favorite stout.

LH: How do you want to be remembered?

HC: An ordinary person walking by at a given space and time, like the seasons passing by. Perhaps I have left something worthwhile behind.

LH: What have you always wanted and did you ever get it?

HC: I have always wanted a wife that I will never get bored with, and I have one. I am a lucky man!

LH: Do you know your heritage?

HC: I know a little bit of my Chinese heritage, but I would like to know more.

LH: Are you still learning who you are?

HC: I am learning that there are more than one of me, it depends on where I am, what I am doing and whom I am with. Right now, I am a writer, answering your questions, in half an hour’s time, when I finished, I will become a chef, cooking dinner for my wife before she comes home, and then hopefully, I can turn into a lover from a cook, instantly.

LH: What, if anything, are you afraid of and why?

HC: I am afraid that I will lose my bodily function as I gradually grow older, since I cannot participate in life fully, but I hope I can learn to cope with it, somehow.

LH: What is the most memorable class you have ever taken?

HC: A CLF self-defense class, when this technique that I have been practicing day after day actually works, my opponent went off flying and I have only been doing CLF for a short while.

LH: What book has influenced you the most?

HC: Many books have influenced me during different stages of my life, right now I am reading Burton Watson’s translation of Zhuangzi and I can feel my thoughts are turning.

LH: What ridiculous thing has someone tricked you into doing or believing?

HC: Tricked me into believing that all I’ll need is intention, I found out later that is not enough, intention without action is just hot-air.

LH: Who or what has been the greatest influence in your life?

HC: Slowly I realized it is my father, I never saw him much and I never talked to him much either before he died, and I wish I had, but as I get older, I find myself become more and more like him, somehow, each day.

LH: What is the craziest thing one of your teachers has done or made you do?

HC: Insisted that I can handle 5 or 6 people pushing me at the same time and I will not be pushed over. Somehow, I managed and I learned from this unusual experience that it is our fear that makes us weak, the skill is needed but it is not the only criteria.

LH: When did you screw everything up, but no one ever found out it was you?

HC: Never, I always got found out, it must have shown on my face.

LH: If someone made a movie of your life would it be a drama, a comedy, a romantic-comedy, action film or science fiction?

HC: It would be a dramatic science fiction with an action and romance plot but ended up as a comedy.

LH: If you could select one person from history and ask them one question — who would you select and what would the question be?

HC: I would ask Krishnamurti, why did you keep your clandestine love affair secret for 25 years, when I have put you on a pedestal?

LH: How would you describe your art in ten words or less?

HC: “I tried my best; the rest is my fate”.

LH: Thank you so much for your generosity of time and detailed answers to the questions sir. I have enjoyed each and every one of them and concur wholeheartedly with your words, and I’m sure our readers will too. I hope that we can hear from you in future issues too.

HC: Thank you for the opportunity for me to reflect, I enjoyed the opportunity very much in answering your questions.

All images in this article appear courtesy of Howard Choy. Further information regarding classes etc can be found at shou-yi.org.