Concepts of Diversity in an Urban School Setting

Running head: RACE AND TEACHING

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Impact of Race and Other Factors On Teaching In Urban Schools Rajesh Barnabas Nazareth College EDU 520

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2 Abstract

Students look to their teachers for more than academic considerations. Given the substantial social and economic erosion in inner city areas, urban schoolteachers assume an expanded role, and are afforded responsibilities that were once within the agency of parents. The demographic in New York State’s urban areas is made up largely of Black and Hispanic students (see Appendix B). Whether educators are cognizant of, invested in, or equipped to deal with the context that surrounds the students of urban schools is the thematic focus of this research. The study attempts to identify characteristics of an effective teacher of minority students, specifically looking at the urban school setting. There is also an effort to glean from the broader discussion whether the race of the teacher matters.

Keywords: diversity, race, urban, teaching

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Race and Other Factors of Teaching in Urban Schools My investigation considered, among other factors, whether race is relevant in describing effective teaching of minority students in our modern era. From a personal standpoint, this question is important to me. As a bi-racial student, and now teacher, the question has always swirled in my mind; does the race of the teacher matter and if so why does it matter? Having taught in both suburban and urban settings, I am also curious to know whether a special skill set is needed to teach in an urban school environment. My biography and experience places me in a strategic position to ask these questions.

I began my research with the inverse example of the focus group I planned to investigate.

Being a Good Teacher of Black Students? White Teachers and Unintentional Racism (Hyland, 2005) is a study of four White teachers and their self-perception in teaching students of color.

The study concluded that a disconnect exists between what researchers, for over a decade, have identified as good practice for teaching students of color and how these four White teachers interpret “culturally relevant” teaching. Hyland went further in calling on academics to take greater responsibility in getting race conscious best practices into the hands of elementary and secondary teachers. She states: “critical multicultural teacher educators and researchers have not yet found an effective way to talk across the chasm that divides the academy and the working lives of teachers” (458).

The second research article reviewed – “I don’t think I’m a racist”: Critical Race Theory, teacher attitudes, and structural racism (Vaught & Castagno, 2008) examined teacher attitudes in response to anti-bias in-service training. Two major U.S. urban school districts were the focus of the study. Both consisted of racially diverse student populations and exhibited wide test performance gaps between White and minority students, with the exception of Asian

RACE AND TEACHING Americans performing at the same level as Whites. Partly in response to these gaps and the bad publicity these numbers brought to their districts, for the 2002-03 school year district leaders hired an outside organization to administer a district-wide, anti-bias, teacher and administrator training. The conclusions the researchers arrived at are twofold. First, the trainings were superficial in nature because they only discussed individual awareness of racism rather than the structure of it, no collective transformation or implementation of teaching practices took place.

Secondly, because the discussion of White privilege often incurred a knee-jerk resistance and defensiveness among Caucasian teachers, the trainings may have done greater damage to the discussion of race awareness in the schools. The authors’ conjecture is that without addressing the structural dynamics of racism - the existence of White-controlled institutions defining the meaning and measurements of success and also dictating the parameters of professional development discussions, anti-bias trainings such as this will remain in vain.

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RACE AND TEACHING

Literature Review

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Hearing the silenced dialogue: an examination of the impact of teacher race on their experiences (Dickar, 2008) provided additional insight. The study consisted of interviews with 17 educators – 9 Black, and 8 White from a “segregated” urban high school in New York City.

The major conclusions are as follows. Black teachers felt solidarity with their students, though this relationship proved taxing at times. Black students would confide and complain to Black teachers about racial incidents and expect these teachers to side or advocate for them. This presented professional risks for these Black teachers. On the other hand, the research finds that White teachers were also taking risks when discussing race. They often avoided such topics because they did not know how to navigate the issues, felt they were too complex, and were weary of offending students or colleagues. Dickar recounts the example of Ruth Sherman, a White teacher, who made the effort of bringing in, what she considered to be, culturally relevant material in Nappy Hair by Carolivia Herron, only to be protested by parents demanding Sherman’s removal. Cases like these have a chilling effect on White teachers ability to operate between color lines, notes Dickar. It is not that they don’t value the importance of the discussion; they are just timid. Dickar’s research on this topic suggests a deficiency in the literature dealing with multicultural teaching, which often assumes that evasiveness on the part of White teachers in dealing with race is out of resistance and willful ignorance rather than awareness and for self-preservation.

The conclusion that rings out from this research is that Black and White teachers have completely different teaching experiences. Dickar also suggests that multicultural training for teachers should go beyond listing ways to connect to diverse students or becoming a political ally. Training must demonstrate ways to engage in racial dialogue and negotiate different cultural understandings of authority and democratic practice.

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7 Method

Participants This pilot study (Ary, Jacobs, & Sorensen, 2010) takes place in the context of a New York State urban public school system, set within a county that has typical segregated demographic patterns witnessed across the United States; Black children at city schools and White children attending suburban schools (see Appendix B). This study’s implications are vast if the research behind it shows fortitude. The first step towards that end is building a strong methodological foundation.

I interviewed four minority male teachers from an urban school setting. The subjects included Willy, an Asian male teacher in his mid-30s who went to suburban schools as a youth and now lives in an urban area; Robert, an African American in his mid-30s who attended the same urban school district as a youth that now employs him as a substitute teacher; John, who teaches sociology at the college level but substitute taught in an urban setting for several years prior; and Cameron, a math teacher from Africa in his late 40s.

Procedure The intent of this research is to entertain the controversial idea that it is better for some students to be taught by their own people, it is important to define some terms. Students being taught by “their own people” could mean teachers that students are “cool with,” teachers they trust or it could mean teachers from the same socioeconomic background as the students.

Additionally, “their own people” could strictly mean their own race of people. Even if we were able to define certain terms for students, what would their parents’ desires and descriptions be?

Won’t descriptions of what an effective teacher is or looks like, be debated between generations?

It appears at the outset that narrowing the field of questions we should ask is a daunting task.

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The nature of this inquiry automatically prescribes a qualitative approach. I was pursuing ideas and philosophies rather than measurable performances or human activities. Although randomization is strongly suggested as the “gold standard” for educational research, it was impossible to allow for in a number of key areas (Ary, Jacobs, Sorensen, 271). The process for selecting subjects for this study was very much controlled. With that said, given the limitations of a pilot study, I wanted to get the widest range of qualitative data – in the form of opinions, while limiting as many other variables as possible. Therefore I had to be strategic about my selection process, which admittedly amounts to selection bias. I chose all minority teachers as subjects for this study but simultaneously attempted to maximize the spectrum of opinions that might come from this finite group. To do the latter I located four male teachers from different ethnic, economic, content area, and age categories, all still falling under the larger “minority” label. I originally planned to get an equal gender distribution sample for my study. Instead, I went with all racial minority men, a kind of double minority subsection within the teaching profession.

The method I chose for this pilot study resembles a case study design (Ary, Jacobs, Sorensen, 29) using formal and informal interview styles. Originally I thought of forming a focus group, but decided that the internal validity would be suspect due to the diffusion of opinions. One loud mouth or conversely one highly inspirational speaker might influence the tone of the discussion tampering with the originality and individuality of participant inputs.

Equally undesirable was the possibility of the focus group devolving into a squabbling match of whose opinion is more hyperbolic, an environment I had witnessed one too many times at political forums. Another validity check was brought to mind when reviewing Maryann Dickar’s study (2008). She writes in her methods section, “Though educators were not asked directly

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about how race may have informed student experience or their work, race emerged as a topic in many interviews.” Dickar was able to limit, to some degree, the amount of subject effect in her study. Subjects become aware of themselves and the effect their actions, or in the case of Dickar’s research – their opinions, might have on a certain research topic and consequently moderate their views. To reduce the degree to which subjects might manipulate the results more into the realm of idealism than realism, I planned to invoke the same style of inquiry for my investigation. Only I was going to take it one step further.

If I could somehow coax the teachers into talking about my research topic area, without them actually detecting it as research, I might attain the most candid data. Maybe I had watched too many episodes of The Wire around the time of this research, but I believed that such methods would produce the most provocative if not insightful data possible, given my research focus. So the data collection design evolved into casual conversations with four teachers, with the formal interview tactic at my disposal if I really needed them to focus on a clear point. Maximize the array of opinions in the vicinity of the focus area of research, while minimizing all other outstanding variables – that was the method design in a nutshell.

To initially decode the interview transcripts, I used a program called Wordle that generates “word clouds” from the text I provided. The clouds give greater prominence to words that appear more frequently in the source text (http://www.wordle.net/) (See Pictures A-D).

There were numerous threats to validity to this research. First, you can’t prove a negative by a positive and vice versa. Even if I were able to eliminate selection bias (Ary, Jacobs, Sorensen, 2010) by beginning with a homogenous minority test group, that demographic grouping of four people does not prove anything for the rest of the human population.

Transferability (Ary, Jacobs, Sorensen, 2010) of this study’s findings is reduced due to the

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microcosmic scope as a pilot study. Dependability of the study is also a concern. Because the research was limited to one urban area with only one sample group, the study was nearly void of Replication logic. In addition, I did the interview and the decoding of it, so the code-recode strategy could have been better. Maybe a different decoder would have highlighted different data. The study’s confirmability – the qualitative term for objectivity (Ary, Jacobs, Sorensen, 2010), might also be debated given the fact that the questions I asked were not altogether neutral all of the time. An example of this follows.

I tried not to ask questions that directly addressed the issue of race, instead providing a field of topics for the teacher to possibly inject race into. There was one question that bluntly cornered the subject into talking about race, not that, telling from the transcripts, this tactic was needed. The question was phrased as this: “How would you define a diverse faculty; what does it look like?” The second segment of the question – “What does it look like?” influences the responder to think in terms of appearance or “looks” in defining diversity rather than other meanings. In hindsight and during the interview process I realized what a loaded question this was and the costs that this Experimenter effect (Ary, Jacobs, Sorensen, 2010) might impose on the validity of my research. Nevertheless, I did not adjust the question, even after knowing its bias, in an effort to avoid validity threats in another area – Instrumentation (Ary, Jacobs, Sorensen, 2010). Changing the measuring instruments half way through would further invalidate the results.

There was an additional problem with the instruments of measure. Random error can occur even with the slightest alteration in testing conditions (Ary, Jacobs, Sorensen, 2010). In the case of Cameron’s interview, he had a limited 30-minute block he could talk to me. His interview was also the only one conducted on school premises. Even with the door closed to his

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classroom, the conditions for the interview were skewed. Given the limited time slot and the location, there is no telling to what degree this suffocated or inspired the data when compared to the interview environment for the other teachers.

Results In this section I relay a collection of highlights from discussion transcripts, which pertain directly to the question I posed at the beginning of my research: What are the factors that contribute to successful teaching of minority students in an urban setting? And the component question, does race factor in? Any selection process in choosing which comments to include will forfeit a degree of objectivity. My focus is to display the full range of answers from the four subjects interrogated. Common threads and analysis will follow.

Picture A Willy, over the course of a 45-minute interview, did not describe a separate list of factors for effective teaching in an urban setting from what would be listed for a suburban setting. In both cases, teachers benefited from being able to relate, or as he put it – “relate-ability” with students was key. Lived experience was another essential factor. His Laotian background, being a parent, an older student in the education program, all made him unique to his profession.

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Being able to navigate two worlds, the Laotian one at home and the American one at school, prepared him for adapting to different circumstances that were thrown at him as a teacher. When it came to describing what a “diverse faculty” looks like or ought to be, he said it should consist of people of “different mindsets” and different “lived experiences.” He said this should be the same formula whether teaching in an urban or suburban area. The full transcript of what Willy and the other three teachers said is available at Appendix A.

Picture B Robert, in an interview that went 50 minutes, was quite critical of those who call for more diversity in the urban school setting, but equate that to hiring more Black teachers. Here is an excerpt from his response: You know it’s unfortunate that people believe if you brought in more Black teachers that students would learn, but you look at the community that is predominantly Black and Latinos and you have drugs and violence and suffering and every kind of pathology you can think of. The households are dysfunctional and there aren’t any White people there.

They’re single parents and those aren’t running, they’re not effective or healthy.

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He considered the notion of diversity best met by a school offering a wide range of courses and one that might hire teachers from different countries if they proved better at teaching certain subjects: “I would rather have the school be all White or Asian and have good teachers than have a bunch of Black and Latino teachers that were just mediocre.”

Picture C John, in an interview lasting 45 minutes, described his uniqueness in his profession in terms of his race and gender first. “Well, I’m the only Black male,” he said laughing. He then said being an immigrant gave him a different perspective. John says he is one of the few people in his department who lives in the inner city and this is different than just studying urban issues or using census data. He said, “You get a different, or in my opinion, nuanced perspective by actually interacting with people in the neighborhood or living in the neighborhood.”

John elaborated on this point when discussing how teachers connect to parents: “At times the parents, you know, for whatever reasons they’re working two or three jobs or they don’t know how to interact with, for the most part, White middle class people, you know White middle class women.” John combined race, class, and geography in his analysis:

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Sometimes there’s just cultural misunderstanding or not knowing or the anxiety that goes with interacting with someone who is potentially working class poor Black and who is middle class White who has lived in the suburb, continues to live in the suburb. And I’m not saying a suburb that is integrated, there are integrated suburbs – somewhat integrated suburbs, an all-White suburb and this person lives in a completely segregated all-Black neighborhood and sometimes an interaction is fraught with tension.

John’s take on the diversity question was critical of the question itself. He stated: That word diversity is thrown around so damn much, because there could be racial diversity, geographic diversity, diversity in terms of gender or sex or whatever. But in a particular school, in terms of the faculty, I guess when I think of diversity, I think when many people talk about diversity, it’s a way for them to talk about race without saying race. We live in this colorblind era, where everybody is supposedly colorblind and racism is gone so [cough]. Even in instances where people know what they really mean is race, they won’t even say the word. So they use crap like diversity or multiculturalism, and those kinds of euphemisms as far as I’m concerned [chuckles].

He went on to say more than sheer numbers of Blacks should be considered for diversity. John asked what positions do the minorities on staff hold: “are they just part of the janitorial staff?”

He would like to see teachers of alternative sexual orientation, and women as math and science teachers become part of the formula for diversity.

Cameron, in a 30-minute interview, did not identify his ethnic background first, when answering the question of what made him unique. Instead, his subject area expertise is placed front and central. He described his “broad training in math and science, engineering, physics, and pure math.” Cameron compared his passion for math to that of Michael Jordan’s passion for

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sport. This is what distinguished him from other math teachers. “They went to school to study math to become a teacher, I became a teacher by default.” He then mentioned his culture as a difference. “I am not from this culture so teaching to me is one of the most prestigious job[s].”

Cameron is an immigrant from an African nation.

Picture D On diversity, Cameron acknowledged that diversity “could mean many things.” He gave his attention to a definition that is political in nature: “It could also mean those non-minorities that bring a degree of activism to support kids. They don’t get the necessary support because this huge status quo doesn’t want to mess up the norm. So you could be White, and strongly believe that these kids need a fundamental understanding in math and science but you’ll be the minority, not just by color but your idea.”

Cameron believed “good teaching is good teaching anywhere.” Whether it is a suburban or an urban setting, it is still human communications. He said, “It is a dynamic between a teacher and a student.” But he conditioned this response with, “Does the environment change your communications? Yes, you have to understand your student, you have to understand you.”

The bottom line for him was simple, “You have to like kids.” Being patient with them was part

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of the job: “If a machine breaks you know, would an engineer say I would not like this job. They would go back read, think and design that machine.”

Discussion First I will discuss some initial communication traits teachers exhibited, that may have deeper implication. Willy checked in with the interviewer using the words “you know what I mean,” to check my agreement. The word “mean” even shows up in the word cloud as a bigger size indicating its frequent use (see Picture A). I wonder if his checking in this way was whether to see if I understood his meaning or if I was in agreement with him. To be on the cautious side, I did not answer his checking in questions, in order to minimize the Experimenter effect (Ary, Jacobs, Sorensen, 2010). The conversational device seemed a way of herding the opinion of others indicating perhaps a tactic he used in his class to push his case. It seemed to complement his philosophy of allowing students to challenge his academic agenda; evidence for this can be found in the transcript (see Appendix A).

On a related note, Robert, after saying something that could be perceived as controversial, would say “or whatever.” This was a conversational tact he used, whether consciously or unconsciously, for the purpose of cushioning his more targeted insights and criticisms. For example, in his criticism of the “Black teaching community” for their parochial interest base, he attached “or whatever” to the end of it, softening the impact perhaps of his tough remark. John, on the other hand, snickers, chuckles, and laughs through potentially uncomfortable turns in the conversation.

John is definitely race conscious and repeats several times that his racial and ethnic identity shapes his perspective. The word “Black” shows up often in our conversation (see Picture C), but not as frequently as in the conversation with Robert (see Picture B). John points

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out that there is a difference between race and ethnicity. Racially he is Black but culturally he is Jamaican and an immigrant to America, which differentiates his experience from that of the more common African American experience. In the transcription it is noted that he laughs and chuckles at different moments. It may be telling that the moments where he did laugh or joke were primarily around statements he made regarding race. Maybe for comic relief or to ease the delivery, there is a clear connection between his spouting of laughter and the racial content of his statements. Perhaps still, the purpose behind the humor was to emphasize or poke fun at the racial exclusivity of certain academic environments he had been witness to and a part of. For example, when John is speaking of his uniqueness in his current position being the only Black male in his department, he chuckles out loud. This outburst indicates that being Black and male is a description that is in such contrast to the rest of the department, that it is laughable. John later remarks that the university he works at is doing better than most others he has seen. He says incredulously, “there’s like a Black person in every department.”

The second example where humor is attached to the description of a racially exclusive environments is John’s mentioning of his high school in downtown (name of city). He laughs and then says, “So you’re not going to get too many White folks jumping ship to…,” which cuts off with more laughter. He is again laughing at the one-dimensional racial setting, but this time it is mostly Black people that occupy the space rather than White females. While issues of race in our culture can be turned into a laughing matter as easily as a fighting matter, the comical intent used by John is to point out ironies. Perhaps joking is an instrument of communication that comes to him naturally or he has developed it to deal with these topics. This may be similar to Robert’s use of “or whatever” for the purpose of softening the presentation of more edgy concepts. Another possibility is that people within the same ethnic group joke with each other

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about racial matters more. John admits to this when discussing his comfort with his colleagues: “You know Black people joke about race all the time and sometimes White people we just don’t let them in on it.”

The word “Black” shows up quite prominently in the transcript with Robert (see Picture B). Right from the beginning he talked about race issues, his “unique perspective as a Black person,” and he also spoke about the “Black community.” So the concept of race did weigh into his meditations on effective teaching in an urban setting. Willy, Robert, and John identified their race as setting them apart from their colleagues, but Robert gave this insight more attention.

Willy is Laotian, navigating two worlds – one at home and a different American culture at school. Robert identified with the “mainstream” African American experience – parents from the south of the United States, attending lower level classes within low performing schools, “victimized” by the system. Robert, on the other hand, distinguished his African identity apart from the African American category, claiming to be a Jamaican American. Cameron was an immigrant from Africa and, similar to John, drew distinctions between his perspective and that of the African American students he teaches. At no point did Cameron directly refer to himself as a Black teacher. His approach was to evaluate himself and issues through a “holistic” human lens.

Similar to Willy, he speaks of diversity in terms of mindsets and contends that minority ideas “will not be respected or appreciated.” And to him it is a dangerous track to take since it opens you to attack from all sides: And from both the minorities [Cameron is speaking now of racial minorities] will say why is this person trying to be more Black than I am? Or the majority groups will say why is this person trying to be a minority? Your color doesn’t speak anything, your deed does and diversity means people work together with respect, dignity to bring change.

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And it is not a group thing; it’s a holistic approach. That we don’t have, because if you had like five Blacks, you’re all set. But those five Blacks cannot function in a system that does not respect their ideas or their approach. So either A – they adjust to the norm or they become, you know, lone warriors.

For Cameron there is a political element to defining “minority” status. He is speaking first of minority as a stance or a person that is at odds with the majority opinion. His first example, if you recall, was of a White activist type of teacher that may also exemplify minority.

He then juxtaposes the example of five Blacks contradicting his holistic approach with an example of this same group satisfying his definition of diversity. This proves his point, albeit in disjointed fashion, that “color doesn’t speak anything, your deed does.” It is therefore not safe to conclude that race, with regards to skin color, is a qualifier among all the teachers interviewed.

Now is a good moment to stop, take a minute to digest, and admit to the confusing nature of decoding interviews. As you can tell from Cameron’s example above, it is far from an exact science in interpreting, categorizing, and totaling up what a subject says. It is easy to see why qualitative investigations of this nature are challenged by quantitative-oriented academics.

Aggregating nuance does not lend itself to drawing concise conclusions. In spite of this fact, there remains a subtlety to human factors and notions of “effectiveness” that can’t always be handled by number crunching and simple observations. This is where interviews, exposing narratives and attempting to systematically dissect and digest them may be more functional.

Thus far, the four teachers report that they are different from their colleagues and that they but it cannot be confirmed that they are more familiar with the population of students they serve. Even if they were, it has not yet been established that this familiarity has any impact academically on the outcomes of their students? But by outcomes, are we only thinking in terms

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of grades and test performance, or are there emotional or mental health items we should consider? What precisely are we measuring when we say “effective teaching?” The broad goal of this research is to locate definite factors for effective teaching in urban schools. The smaller inquiry is to find, if any, a correlation between race and better teaching practices among students of color. I selected a subgroup of teachers to interview that I believed would support the notion that the race of a teacher is an important issue to students of color, if not a determining factor in their success. The following discussion segments will present an unraveling of that premise, but not an entire dismissal of the concept.

Race vs. Diversity Both Robert and Cameron hint at a reclusive nature when it comes to relations with other staff members. “I keep to my…I keep out of other people’s business, I keep my nose clean. I don’t take sides,” said Robert. Cameron is more obtuse, saying that when only one teacher thinks something, that opinion is not really considered. So the harmony among staff at his location rolls over individual teacher dissent or discord with particular school-wide decisions or models. In relating this information, I can tell that he is speaking from personal experience while maintaining the third person verb and subject tense.

For Robert, in his detailing of his run in with one administrator, he says, “mind you that this administrator was not originally from this country,” and then later identifies the woman as being Indian. He is hesitant when he is delivering this detail and couches it in a lower-voiced tone and with the words “actually”. This indicates to me, that he is being cautious in his speech here and seemingly hiding more information from me. It was important enough to note that this person was from another country, in the introduction to the drama, but then there is no follow up

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or thorough explanation of why that detail is important when he then divulges her specific ethnic identity – that just so happens to match mine, the person interviewing him.

I can only infer that this ethnic aspect is significant enough, but not a topic Robert is comfortable expanding on with me. The short pause before giving up her Indian identity indicates perhaps that he just then realized that “oh shoot, I can’t really say what I was going to say.” The predicament of the experimenter effecting results, returns. I wouldn’t go so far as to say Robert’s caution in this instance reveals any kind of closed condemnation of Indians or immigrants. Not at all, because earlier he stated that Indians and Asians in general should be recruited to teach math and science. I can only surmise that Robert was implying something along the lines of “someone from America, might not be so disrespectful to those working under them.” And I would have to admit, and this is from personal familiarity with the culture, that some Indians can still be caught mimicking the haughty behavior learned under a caste system with additional cues taken from British colonial rule. It is a haughtiness that in America, and especially in the instance Robert describes, can easily be translated and perceived as racism.

John is more consistent than the other teachers interviewed, in connecting race with lived experience. In discussing college education programs, John says: “In the college programs, I’ve seen, most of the students in these programs are White students, most of them come from suburban areas. It’s not that they haven’t had contact with racial minorities in any way, but [college programs] don’t adequately prepare them for understanding the sociology and history of what the situation is of where these kids are living.”

There are other times when John detaches experience from race. A tiny exchange and clarification John makes entertains an idea that is central to this pilot study. The context is him describing his expanded role as not only a professor but a counselor: “They see you in almost a

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weird sense, not just as a professor but as a counselor, especially African American students, especially African American male students. They’ll come to me and say, ‘Oh man you understand what we’re going through or the stuff you talk about in class, you understand where we come from.’ And they say that to me.” I said to John, “So that’s almost inherent in the position and just your skin color.” He agreed, “Yeah, just my experience, where I’ve lived, and my history.” The initial “yeah” he says to affirm my statement, conceals slightly the fact that he is actually rejecting the singularity of skin color being the only determining factor of African American students calling upon him. He not only clarifies that it is “experience, where I’ve lived, and my history,” his use of the word I previously used “just ” serves as a cut and paste over my idea or a whiting out, if older technology metaphors are helpful.

John also emphasizes gender. In a few places he notes that it is his being not only Black but a Black male that has such and such an effect or adds idiosyncrasy. In the aforementioned quote he says, “African American students, especially African American male students” seek his counsel. Willy also lists gender as a factor: “Male teachers have the expectation of needing to be strong, needing to be the father figure at times.”

In a world where skin color and experience are intricately entwined, it is easy to blend the two and round off the difference. But here we see John taking care to point out that his lived experience, “my history,” is more important than simply his skin color. African Americans rightly feel a connection to him and his experience being Black, but they also identify with “the stuff you talk about in class.” So it can be the content of the material or the viewpoint of the teacher that can be a factor that draws minority students in. John, like the rest of the teachers interviewed, puts great emphasis on passion and skill in a subject area in measuring good teaching.

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So what? What does this clarification, this emphasis on lived experience, subject area expertise, “the stuff you talk about in class” (read that as content of curriculum) mean? Putting aside race considerations for a moment, teachers can and do get the content and subject area skills to engage minority students, but what about lived experience? How important a factor is that in relation to the others highlighted? Do the teachers I interviewed prioritize one factor over another? And from a birds-eye view, what is best for the students? My question half way through the interview, “How would you rank the importance of relating to parents and students as opposed to knowledge of content area or degree held – other professional measures of a teacher?” was designed to make the teachers draw conclusions and prioritize the points they had made in the discussion.

Three of the teachers interviewed, saw academics as only part of their role as a teacher.

They didn’t say whether they welcomed that role, it was just stated matter of fact. Willy used “my kids” a lot and referred to the teacher’s role as a “father” figure and “parent” sometimes.

For example when speaking about his ability to hold classroom discipline together as opposed to his younger female colleague he says, “I think it’s because maybe I’m a parent.” Willy said at another point, “I work in such a diverse workplace where I’m not just a teacher, I’m a counselor sometimes, I’m a parent….” He is teaching at the middle school level, so you might expect this, but as we saw with John, counseling persists even at the college level. Robert demonstrates his ability to talk to students about issues they probably wouldn’t discuss with other teachers. And given the setting of where he works, we should infer that it is probably racial minorities he is counseling: I think in order to be a successful teacher in the city, you have to break the rules. You have to use unconventional methods to get your point across, to motivate students. For

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instance, you know I’ve lied to my kids. I would ask them what do you want to be when you reach adulthood? Kids would tell me straight off, they accepted me, ‘Mr. I respect you but if I told you what I want to be then you will be upset with me.’ And I said, ‘well tell me.” Students tell me they want to be a drug dealer. And I say well okay fine, straight-faced ‘you want to be a drug dealer fine, graduate from school, spend six years of college, become a pharmacist, so you’re making $100,000 dollars. And if you want to be a really big drug dealer and you want a Rolls Royce or a big house, then you go to Warner School of Business or the University of Chicago and get your degree in finance, so you can be a high-end drug dealer. You could make half a million dollars a year.’ So no matter what they want to do, as long as I can relate it back to school, I don’t care how outlandish or crazy the idea may be.

As Robert transitions from counselor to confidant, he demonstrates a willingness to “break rules” and try “unconventional” methods in order to motivate his “kids.” This example corresponds to experiences common to many Black teachers (Dickar, 2008). When faced with a conflict over solidarity with students versus professional demands, Robert says, “You can break the rules as long as you relate it back to school, and don’t veer off, because then you can get in trouble.”

Willy on the other hand, the only non-Black minority teacher I interviewed, is very clear in drawing the line between professionalism and being friendly with students: I’ve seen teachers trying to take it too far and be too much of a friend, too much of someone who is likeable, and that just undermines everything that you’re trying to do.

And then that student thinks that we’re buddies. Because I’ve had students that say, “oh you’re my homeboy,” I say “whoa, I’m not your homeboy, I am your teacher, I’m here to help you with things, I’m here if you want to talk, but you and I we don’t hang out. You

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know you’re not at my level. I’m up here and you’re down here. I’ll help you out with whatever you want but, we don’t chill, we’re not homeboys.

Not that the Black teachers I interviewed wanted to be homeboys with their students, but Willy, of the three younger teachers I interviewed, was the most strident in asserting professional boundaries between himself and his students. So we have to wonder, does being a different race than his students factor into the distance he keeps from them? And does that added “professionalism” equate to effective teaching of the urban student?

Cameron would agree with Robert that unconventional approaches are necessary in relating to students, but it can also lead to confusion and chaos. He contends that kids are well informed of their place in society and teachers are trained to “keep them in line” but for a teacher to go between those two boundaries is “very tricky.” The following is Cameron’s description: “First you have to build trust between the students that there is relationship that is very respectful and based on honesty and integrity. But students might not appreciate that. You know so and so told me that I have to sit straight, I have to listen, I have to call him Mr. or Miss. That’s a very tricky issue.”

Cameron concludes that in an urban setting, creating an environment where students can say “I have a stake here, you’re not the only one who is teaching here, I am also teaching you,” is a more “fruitful journey” in the long-term, rather than an all-controlling style. But he adds that the environment of the building has to set the tone. “It’s not just an individual thing.” But then Cameron returns to his central theme – academics. And the comment also relates back to the question posed earlier – whether maintaining professional boundaries may sometimes inhibit the establishment of deeper relationships:

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So academic should be the center of everything we do, because that’s what they need.

Socially they are more competent than a kid from [name of suburb]. They have a huge asset in emotional intelligence. They can cope with life without my support, if it was just life. But they don’t have the academic. So they need to be competent in the reading, writing, and math. And we do marginalize that in an urban setting.

If I am reading this accurately, he is saying maybe teachers in urban schools, informed by multicultural pedagogy, have placed too much of an emphasis on nurturing the student.

Coddling the underprivileged and providing culturally sensitive curriculum may distract from competency in the core learning areas. Isn’t it these core knowledge areas that will get students into college and provide greater opportunity for them? And in the end isn’t that a culturally and socially responsive goal?

Conclusion Despite the procedural problems of the question, all four teachers avoided my language trap and suggested more dynamic ways of defining diversity. Their answers for the questions about diversity were nuanced and at times contained statements that would be contradicted segments later in the interview. In this way it is very difficult to assign a yes or no conclusion to their stance on this topic. It would be too easy to say race is not a factor simply because the teachers interviewed did suggest other considerations in evaluating urban teaching. It would be equally ignorant of the evidence to conclude minority teachers are really hung up on race.

Somewhere between these two posts resides a truer assessment of the evidence.

All four teachers did emphasize subject area skills over all other considerations when evaluating the effectiveness of teaching in urban schools. At the same time “lived experience”

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precipitated better communication, with all four arriving at the rather obvious conclusion that without communication all other items are moot.

It would take more direct questions and clarifications to attain a definitive answer on their perspectives on this matter. But even if the data sample was expanded, there is no telling what toll the experimenter effect might have on the results. The person being interviewed has to be very comfortable with the interviewer. I was able to a certain degree put the teachers I interviewed at ease.

I think my bi-racial background uniquely qualifies me to be doing this line of research. I am half Irish-American and half Indian. Because I am not Black nor White, I may be able to ask questions about race without really giving into or giving away my bias. It is a sort of ethnic androgynous status that perhaps lends itself to a more objective rendering of research in this area.

But still, I had to wonder how much information was withheld or will be with further investigations when one party cannot fully confide in the other? And I guess this is a fitting question to end on as it speaks to the heart of my research topic.

Does familiarity with a student personally propel their education? And by familiarity, we mean awareness and understanding of the social context of the student – as described quite thoroughly by John but similarly by the other teachers in the study. Is that the most important factor in effective teaching of urban youth? Is there a natural correspondence between shared racial experience and personal familiarity with a student? This pilot study attempts to lay down a framework for asking these kinds of questions and arriving at actionable conclusions. It falls short of that latter effort, but I hope the process has sparked enough intrigue as to inspire similar research.

For Future Research

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As I was decoding the interviews, I realized that there were more connections and considerably deeper relationships being unearthed between the subjects’ inputs, more than could properly be addressed in a pilot study. Structural, school environments, systems of operation could only be hinted at and then skimmed over. If a number of pilot studies with the same premise, from multiple locations and multiple groups can be compiled together and data be triangulated from the aggregate, then perhaps my research can serve as a small part of a study more worthy of policy alterations in the area of teacher/pupil race considerations.

However convincing qualitative approaches and findings might be to those conducting them, they could still be enhanced by quantitative research. That is why perhaps a corresponding quantitative study that measured student test performance against teacher race factors might gain broader appreciation.

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Ary, D., Jacobs, L.C., & Sorensen, C. (2010). Introduction to research in education (8th ed.).

Belmont, CA: Wadsworth Cengage Learning.

Burnaford, G., Fischer, J., & Hobson, D. (Eds.). (2001). Teachers doing research: The power of action through inquiry (2nd ed.). Mahwah, NJ: Lawrence Erlbaum Associates.

Dickar, M. (2008). Hearing the silenced dialogue: an examination of the impact of teacher race on their experiences. Race Ethnicity and Education, 11(2), 115-132. doi: 10.1080/13613320802110233 Hyland, N.E. (2005). Being a good teacher of black students? White teachers and unintentional racism. Curriculum Inquiry, 35(4), 429-459. doi: 10.1111/j.1467-873x.2005.00336.x Stevens, T., Hamman, D., & Olivarez Jr., A. (2007). Hispanic students’ perception of white teachers’ mastery goal orientation influences sense of school belonging. Journal of Latinos And Education, 6(1), 55-70. doi: 10.1207/s1532771zjle0601_4 Vaught, S.E., & Castagno, A.E. (2008). “I don’t think I’m a racist”: Critical Race Theory, teacher attitudes, and structural racism. Race Ethnicity and Education, 11(2), 95-113. doi: 10.1080/13613320802110217

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Transcript of interview with Willy Willy’s Background: Laotian male middle school social studies teacher in his mid-30s.

RB: So Why did you go into…First let me define some terms, when I say urban schools, I am meaning, primarily underprivileged black and Hispanic students that are typical of urban settings across America. Not your Stuyvesant in New York City or any elite school. So why did you go into teaching?

WILLY: Umm, after I finished (college) with a history degree, my options with a history degree weren’t as many as I thought it would be. I tried substituting and it worked out, and I figured with this history degree, I could use the degree with teaching and be happy to go into work everyday. It turns out that I am (happy) and it’s something that I’m good at. And I generally like working with young people.

RB: What makes you unique as a teacher separate from your colleagues?

WILLY: Yeah, just being of Asian descent, Laotian, and a male in teaching, those are two categories that aren’t as prevalent in teaching. And I think just my lived experiences that I bring to the field, being able to live in two different worlds growing up. You know I had my American world at school and at home I was a Laotian. I think being able to bring these things to the table and experience that diversity, enhances my teaching and relating to kids.

RB: I am going to ask some teaching philosophy questions now. What factors determine a good teacher? Now give it a couple seconds to think about, because it is a broad question.

WILLY: Knowledge of the field that you are teaching. Flexibility and what I mean by flexibility is being able to handle any situation that is given to you. Relate-ability, because I work in such a diverse workplace, where I’m not just a teacher, I’m a counselor sometimes, I’m a parent, I’m an ear to listen to, you know and it doesn’t stop at academics. You know what I mean? And with that same thought, it doesn’t stop when I leave school. I bring work home with me. Even though I’m not grading, I’m still thinking of a lesson plan or thinking of how I could do something different.

RB: So let me be more specific with when you said “relate-ability,” and this gets into my second question. Do you think there are other factors to this list when you consider teaching in an urban school setting as opposed to a suburban school setting? Let’s stick with the relate-ability, do you think that you have to relate to students at a different level in an urban setting? Is there more to that?

WILLY: No, I think even in a suburban setting you have to know what the general population is but at the same time you have to understand what the circumstances your students are coming to school with. The problems that arise in a suburban district aren’t as similar as an urban district.

So you may be able to relate but unless you understand why that child is having a problem

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learning then it is going to be a problem, a big hurdle that you won’t overcome unless you understand.

RB: Going to move into the area of teacher-student relationships, somewhat related but. In relating to students, should lines be drawn and what do those lines look like?

WILLY: Yeah, I mean definitely there’s a line, but it’s a very fine line, especially if you’re a male teacher. Because of the way society views a male teacher’s relationship with a male or female student. Male teachers have the expectation of needing to be strong, needing to be the father figure at times. But at the same time you can’t um, there are rules that if you are meeting with a student, don’t have your door closed or don’t do certain things. Where is if you are a female teacher, there’s a different set of rules you play by. What was the second part of the question?

RB: Well I think you answered it, but what do those lines look like?

WILLY: My years are totally different. Last year when I was at (former High School Name) it was a different scenario, I really did not get to know my students. I had a little more than I had this year…

RB: As far as caseload or rather student roster number…

WILLY: Yeah, where I’m at now demands that I know these students inside and out. I have a more intricate relationship with not only them but their parents, their guardians, their brothers and sisters. It’s just whole different scenario. That’s not to say at (former High School Name) I couldn’t do this, but the opportunities didn’t afford themselves. You know what I mean, it’s just a different environment, different expectation.

RB: How does a teacher relater or connect to parents?

WILLY: Well you seek out that commonality. It starts off with I work with your child everyday and you have to show that you have a vested investment in that child. It’s not just that I’m teaching your child but I want your child to learn and grow into a responsible individual who knows their civic rights and practices these. It’s not just enough, I feel that I am not just teaching, I am nurturing this student. I am teaching them right and wrong, how to act in certain cituations.

RB: So it’s not even part of the curriculum…

WILLY: I think when you get a student, it’s an investment too, you are role model even whether you think so or not. Because that parent has basically given up that child for 6 hours of the day to be under your responsibility. Yeah you’re teaching them, but it’s not just academics. I lot of the time I am teaching how to act in certain situations, how to hold yourself when you are talking to someone.

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RB: Is that different for different age groups, because your teaching now at the middle school level, but at (former High School Name) you were teaching at the high school level…Is that role expanded with younger age groups?

WILLY: I think middle school is so crucial because it’s such a transition year. You’re going from elementary and your learning all these things you didn’t have to learn. Whereas if you’re teaching a 10th, 11th, or 12th grader, that person has already almost established themselves on how they want to be. You can still guide them, but they’re pretty much set on their ways, on where they’re going, and what they believe in. Whereas in middle school you still have a big weight in which way they are transitioning to, I think.

RB: How would your rank or rate the importance of relating to students or parents, say versus knowledge of content area, the degree you hold or other professional measures of a teacher?

WILLY: That’s a real tricky question, I would rank it pretty high because that’s part of getting your student and parent to buy into your philosophy. If you can show that you care genuinely for that child, then that child is going to buy into what you are trying to do. But at the same time, I’ve seen teachers trying to take it too far and be too much of a friend, too much of someone who is likeable, and that just undermines everything that you’re trying to do. And then that student thinks that we’re buddies. Because I’ve had students that say, “oh you’re my homeboy,” I say “whoa, I’m not your homeboy, I am your teacher, I’m here to help you with things, I’m here if you want to talk, but you and I we don’t hang out. You know you’re not at my level. I’m up here and your down here. I’ll help you out with whatever you want but, we don’t chill, we’re not homeboys.” You know what I mean…It’s a very fine line. You have to draw a line, because you have to demand respect.

RB: School structure and workplace harmony questions now: In general are there any structures or school organization models – administrative models that you believe are more effective?

WILLY: Can you expand on that a bit or give an example?

RB: For example, we can relate back to you’re at (present High School Name), it’s a different kind of model or structure than (former High School Name). Do you think one is more effective, one is better than the other?

WILLY: That’s a really loaded question? I mean it depends if that teacher is buying into what (that school’s model is). In my opinion, yeah, the model that I am at now works. For example, when I was at (former High School Name) I saw my administrators maybe three or four times a marking period and out of those three or four times it was for evaluations of me. At my school now, my principal’s door is wide open, if I have any problems, I am in there. I go to my administrator if I can’t get in touch with a parent, if I have a problem with a parent or I don’t know how to reach a student, she’s there. I have her cell phone, I call her if I need something.

Whereas when I was at (former High School Name) I rarely talked to my principal, it was good morning and that was it..(chuckling).

RB: So there is more of a familiarity with the administration.

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WILLY: That familiarity builds trust. There have been a lot of times where I haven’t been sure of my teaching and my principal will say, “I am sure of you.” She says, “I am not in your class all the time, but when I walk by, I know what you’re doing is good.” And it builds confidence in me. If I fail I know that she’ll pick me up.

RB: Can you point toward, other than familiarity with your administrator, is there a certain model that is stated when you go into the building, is it formalized or is it unspoken?

WILLY: It’s both I think. When I went in it was unspoken, I knew what the reputation was, there were expectations. But if you are doing your job then you don’t have anything to worry about.

But at the same time she gives me the space I need to do my job. I don’t always follow the rules, I’ll break them sometimes, but it is benefiting my students.

RB: As far as effective models, to you think there is a set model for kids in general across America or a separate model that works better for students in urban school settings?

WILLY: That’s tough too, because every student is not the same. Some students need to be told: “you need to be here at this time,” they need that structure.

RB: So you are saying that it is a case by case that it isn’t certain populations that need a certain…

WILLY: No, (this city he teaches at) proves that, the city school district proves that. At my school, it’s very unstructured, we learn through expeditionary learning, we have projects. We look at things broadly, then we narrow it in. For example, I’m teaching 8th grade, and in 8th grade there is a big assessment at the end and so I am teaching how to write a DBQ (Data Based Question). But I’m not just throwing DBQs at them, I’m having them write their own DBQs about themselves. In that process, I’m hoping that they learn why it is important to write these, and why it is important to examine documents and how to use them as evidence in your essay.

I’m scaffolding this and this is part of our expedition. We’re studying diseases as an 8th grade class, and the kids are studying diseases that were prevalent during the Civil War, and the Civil War is part of the 8th grade (social studies) curriculum.

RB: So it’s multidisciplinary.

WILLY: That’s what I’m hoping, and so if I had to choose how to teach students, any student, expeditionary learning would be hands down the way to go. Because we go out of school, we perform research outside of school, we use multimedia as much as possible. I want my kids not to pick just any website on Google and just take that as truth.

RB: Be more critical…

WILLY: Yeah, we bring in guest speakers, people in the community, when we were studying forms of government, I brought in (a City councilmember’s name), a city councilmember. I’m bombarding them with more than just a textbook or worksheets. And like I said, it’s not for everyone. All of our kids, not all of them are succeeding, but it’s that challenge, the hope that

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one day it will kick in that (snapping) “oh yeah this is what that means.” And so I tell them that I can’t hold your hand, I’ll give you the tools to get there, but…

RB: So you’re giving them tools to solve any problem, rather than the precise concept, you’re teaching them knowledge skills, how to build your own knowledge.

WILLY: Right, students said to me today, “what’s the point of DBQs, why am I even writing this?” – which is really cool, a kid has challenged me. I said, “so how many people want to be doctors and lawyers here?” Some of them raised their hands, I said “Okay, when you are a doctor you examine documents, you look at the past, you look at diseases and how did that effect the body? When you’re a lawyer, you study past cases and what decisions were made, it goes on and on.” And this kid wanted to be a detective, so I am like that is even better: “you look at documents, evidence, you’re a historian,” you know what I mean. So it’s pretty much in every field, you are doing this type of research. So these are life skills. So when they get to college, they’ll be like “oh we..(learned that).” So I like it when kids challenge me like that. Kids always want to know why they are doing something. And you know there’s a purpose, I’m not just doing this so we can waste time. So there’s kids that need structure, and they transfer to other schools.

RB: Define ‘diverse faculty’ and what does it look like?

WILLY: I mean you’re speaking beyond physical…

RB: Is that what you’re saying…

WILLY: Well if I had to define diverse faculty, I would say people of different mindsets. You would have veterans, people who have done it one way, and you would have younger people who just don’t buy into the same thing. So it could be like okay one way I did it and you can do it this other way. I guess that’s how I would describe a diverse faculty. That’s an interesting question.

RB: The second question is should that same thing in an urban setting. What does diversity look like out in the suburb versus in the city? Or should there be a difference?

WILLY: I don’t think so, that’s an interesting question. It should be people of different lived experiences. If I had to pick one trait, it would be the different lived experiences. Because I think we all have something to contribute. And I think if we all bring out different views, that can only make things better. If everyone comes with the same viewpoint, you might miss that best practice. If I teach one way and you teach another, we look at things differently, you know what I mean.

RB: Workplace harmony: do you have good rapport with our colleagues?

WILLY: Are you talking about professional or…

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RB: (snickering) Oh you found a kink in the questionnaire here…damn it. Should have thought of that ahead of time.

WILLY: Do I get along professionally with my colleagues?

RB: Yeah, yeah, that’s what I meant.

WILLY: Yeah, I do..

RB: Is there anytime that that harmony was challenged? And you can think back to (the former high school name he worked at) for this.

WILLY: Last year 3 out 4 members of our team were new to (name of the school he is at now).

So this is our second year together and we still have problems. We don’t communicate as well.

RB: You mean compared to…

WILLY: As a team professionally.

RB: Professionally as…what are you comparing this to, versus…

WILLY: Oh I am comparing my team to the two other teams in our school. From the outside looking in, they look more cohesive. Because, basically, if you had to grade our teams, it comes down to expedition. Has your team put a good expedition together? Has your team put together a finished project that is polished and well. Last year and this year my team still hasn’t gelled yet.

There have been opportunities to use cross-curriculum products put together and I don’t know if its personalities or teaching methods or whatever it is. But my team still has a problem connecting. But that’s not to say I’m not still trying to connect with them.

RB: And let me remind you that this will remain completely anonymous so it’s okay to not name names, but be specific, because this isn’t going to be heard by anybody but me. In fact the way this research goes is that the name of city is not even going to be put in the report. It will just say an urban school or urban teacher in New York State, that’s about as specific as it will get. Maybe I should have said that before we started, but I feel like now is a good time to tell you that. So maybe you can…

WILLY: Elaborate…

RB: Well you’ll get a chance to elaborate. In your workplace in general, is there a positive atmosphere among faculty.

WILLY: There are times when the math teacher, or literacy specialist come together teach a really good lesson.

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RB: How about among faculty members in general, you already spoke about your own personal example. Is this the same way with other teachers and the administration or do you see clashes between them and the administration?

WILLY: Yeah, there are and I think I attribute that to personalities. For example the (subject area) is pretty young, she is (age). I don’t think she has the lived experience, because her classroom management, isn’t what it’s supposed to be. I think if she was a little bit older she would realize how kids react to certain things and how they try to take advantage of certain things. In my class, kids are kids they try to get away with certain things, but, I don’t know, I think it’s because maybe I’m a parent. I grew up in (name of suburb), but now I am teaching in the city and I have always been exposed to pop culture and you know what I mean, just the other, (searching for words) I don’t know how to word it. Like the kids that I have in class, know not to try to get away with things, they know that there is a circumstance…

RB: A consequence.

WILLY: A consequence yeah, that’s going to happen, but at the same time they know I care enough about them, that I’m not going to let them get away with it. And that’s where there have been clashes with (the teacher he was talking about earlier) and the administrator, because of these things. You know what I mean?

RB: Is there harmony between faculty and students? Is there a positive atmosphere?

WILLY: Yeah there are. It’s just because we’re around our own students so often. I mean homeroom is an hour every day. We talk about experiences, we talk about things that are bothering us the night before. We do this thing at our school called “circle, power, and respect” every morning. We get in a circle, we greet each other, we greet each other, we have a reading, we share our thoughts on the reading, and then we’ll share something about ourselves. You know like ‘last night I had a bad day, because this and this happened.” It’s a way to connect with students that I have never done before. Because normally, homeroom is you take attendance and then ‘okay, off you go.’

RB: That’s nice, because normally you have small groups that talk and this incorporates the whole group.

WILLY: What’s nice is that way our school works, is that if such and such has a problem with such and such, I will bring that right out. I’ll be like, “what’s this think I hear where you’re having a problem with her?” Let’s talk about it, you know what I mean?

RB: There’s dialogue then, so that becomes part of the teaching moment.

WILLY: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So everyday my team of teachers meets and we discuss, ‘I heard such and such is goin’ through this, did you hear that.’ So we get to talk about what’s going on in each students’ lives.

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RB: Are there any repeating themes, you mentioned that the teacher wasn’t a veteran teacher and that might have something to do with her classroom discipline. Let me get more specific, what do you mean by lived experience?

WILLY: That she hasn’t experienced as many things as I have. I am a parent, I have had multiple careers, I’ve ran into multiple people. And I’ve gotten to know all different kinds of people, some of them who have gone to jail, some that, you know what I mean? And like I said, I grew up in two different worlds, being a minority and…

RB: So just being able to adapt to different personalities.

WILLY: Growing up in (suburb name) being one of six Asians kids in the whole district, being able to adapt to these different situations.

RB: Would you say that this theme of ‘lived experience’ is one of the major factors in whether teachers get along with students?

WILLY: I think so, yeah, I mean what you bring to the table is so huge, because kids want to know these things about you.

RB: So it isn’t so much the length of someone’s lived experience, as far as being a veteran teacher but more the depth of it…

WILLY: Yeah the depth of it, yeah I would say so.

RB: Yeah that’s an interesting point, but I’m not actually supposed to say what’s interesting. I’ll tip my hand. But final three questions here, what factors determine the commitment level of teachers to their school community. Because you see teachers that are committed to the environment of their school, their teaching, and then you see teachers that just leave at 3 o’clock and there like you know…(dusting off hands gesture). Is it the environment their in or…

WILLY: Number one is job security. Knowing that that job is going to be there, there is a more vested interest. But that could also backfire the other way, because you could have people that have been there years and know there going to be there, even though they don’t care, so it’s a two-edged sword. I guess job security and number two, um workplace. If what you’re doing makes you content. And that’s why I am still teaching. Because it’s the one job that makes me happy. I am generally happy to go to work. Sometimes I dread it, but once I get there, I see the kids, and if the lesson is a really bangin’ lesson and I see them learning, I say to myself, this is why I’m still teaching.

So workplace harmony is definitely part of it and maybe gratitude: that sense of accomplishment.

Maybe a recognition, for example, the literacy teacher and myself did a lesson together and later on that night she texted me and said “you did a really good job today.” And I was like oh that’s cool, that was unexpected.

RB: Would you consider teaching in the suburbs in a few years if the position was offered?

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WILLY: Yeah I would, I have always said to myself that I don’t want to teach more than five years. I really want to move up, with maybe an administrative degree. I want to be in a position to really shape curriculum. Right now I think I am gaining that experience of what it’s really like to be inside a classroom. But if there was a position to move up at some point, I would definitely weigh that option.

RB: In the factors you listed for effective teaching, are these things you pick up in your education program, or are they more inherent in the teacher?

WILLY: Would an example of that be student teaching? Is that what you mean, or an education class?

RB: I guess the education program would include student teaching so yeah.

WILLY: I would be inclined to say that a lot of this is inherently in the person. Just because you have taken an education class and done your student teaching, doesn’t mean you can teach. I think a part of it, through you’re lived experience shapes how you see things, how you relate to things, how you react. Teaching is very reactionary, you’re very similar to an actor you’re on stage, you have to be able to improvise and think of another solution. Because not every student learns the same way so we differentiate as much as possible.

Yeah you’re methods and theoretical classes can give you insight on how to relate to a certain situation or how to react to a student but a lot of it is instinct too and experience, learning what to do and what not to do. I learned a lot through my cooperating teachers and I learned a lot about what not to do from my cooperative teachers. What really helped me a lot, is being an older student, in my late twenties is when I did my student teaching. I don’t know what it was, I could sense that there was something different between me and the students that were in their early twenties. I don’t know what it was, but I definitely think I had an edge up on them.

RB: Are there any additional factors that we haven’t mentioned that contribute to best practices in an urban setting.

WILLY: I think, not just for myself, but if urban education programs invested more time into the practice of teaching. Not just a month at one school and another month at another school. I think a candidate would be well suited if they did a year of student teaching or six months at something. Because we have doctors or interns that can experience these things for a longer period of time. I don’t know how long student teaching was, but I know it isn’t anything substantial. Because by the time you do get your feet wet you’re onto another school. Everyone complains too much that teachers get paid too much but no one is doing enough to prepare these teachers. Yeah you could do Teach for America or Americorps, but I don’t think there is enough preparation. A lot of our universities education programs are leaning towards theory and things that are not as concrete. You know what I mean?

RB: So you’re saying that they should get more practice in the trenches.

WILLY: Yeah I think so.

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Transcript of interview with Robert Robert’s background: Six years as a substitute teacher in an urban school setting, in his late twenties or early thirties. African-American male. He is currently subbing in the same school district where he himself attended school, when he was younger.

RB: Here we go. Just to define terms, when I am referring to ‘urban school settings’ it will mean, not your elite Stuyvesant type schools in NY city, but more your underprivileged, primarily Black or Hispanic students attending, free lunch type of thing.

ROBERT: That’s what I think of when I think of urban, poverty.

RB: Okay, why did you go into teaching?

ROBERT: I actually stumbled into teaching by accident, actually. I worked as a paraprofessional for a number of years, then I graduated and came up here and was looking for work and I applied to become a teacher. But I also wanted to make a difference, because while I was a paraprofessional I felt that teachers just weren’t necessarily in tune with the needs of the students. So coming in from the ground up as a teachers aid, I felt like I could make a difference, a small difference.

RB: What makes you unique, separate from your colleagues?

ROBERT: Oh that’s an interesting question, I guess we’re all unique in our own different way.

But I will just give it to you, what makes me unique. The fact that I’ve I can relate to the kids because I grew up in a similar environment. The fact that I have a connection to my path from a historical perspective; both my parents grew up in the south. My mother was a sharecropper in Alabama and my father picked oranges. My mother would tell us stories. But I guess that doesn’t make me unique. But during the summers, I worked as a migrant worker, working alongside Mexicans. Picking apples, strawberries, cucumbers. So you know I have my own unique perspective as a Black person, but I think I can also relate to other people, you know um, that have been repressed or whatever, taken advantage of.

I grew up in a similar environment. I was in special ed for a while because I got in trouble, I was always fighting. My parents would always fight with each other, so I have that experience. I was victimized by the system as a student in the (names of school district). I didn’t take the proper classes, or whatever, but I reached out to students from more affluent backgrounds and they reached out to me. I guess I grew up culturally isolated but I made the effort to break those barriers. So I was exposed to an entirely different set of values, the middle class values, the importance of learning. I hung out with affluent kids and when I went over to their homes, I realized why they lived in nice neighborhoods, there was a connection to reading and wealth. But I didn’t necessarily recognize that at the time.

Before I started teaching, my mentor, I located this guy, he was a sage of some sorts of all things, and he just really opened my mind to the joys of reading and brought a world of contact. I have an insiders perspective to the pathology that’s going on with the ignorance, pain, and suffering in

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the Black community, but I also have a broader view. I believe that people who are in a position of leadership, who supposedly represent the Black community, it’s important that they reach out to other groups of people, not only in this country but in the broader spectrum.

RB: These are going to be more philosophical questions so what factors determine a good teacher?

ROBERT: I think two factors. Being an extremely knowledgeable person makes a person a good teacher. As far as being knowledgeable in a wide range of subjects and just having a broad interest base. I can’t tell my students to communicate with the world, to read, to expose themselves to different experiences, if I myself don’t do those things. And I think that’s missing as a Black teacher. I think that way of thinking is absent within the Black teaching community, or whatever.

You have teachers who are better educated than the parents or the students, but their culturally isolated. But during their college careers they didn’t really interact with people from various cultures. I can’t impart any new information to my students if I don’t…For instance, I’ll go to Barnes and Nobles book store on a Sunday, you don’t see Blacks there. Or if I go to the science museum or wherever knowledge is being passed, for some reason, because of cultural isolation, or other historical factors like post-traumatic slavery syndrome, or whatever, you just don’t see people there. So it’s important that inner city students - Blacks, Hispanics, and poor Whites, don’t have anything, we don’t control the banks, we don’t make money, we don’t make the laws, we don’t do anything so its important that we make as many contacts as possible, so that our students we able to enjoy the fruits of this economy.

So knowledge for sure is one, but I think compassion or empathy is another one. I know some people that are extremely knowledgeable, I look at my mentor who is an extremely bright guy, he’s a little out of touch. I think it’s because, he’s also Black, I think it’s because he was discriminated against as a kid and he realized he had to learn. This guy has his PhD in Physical Chemistry. It’s like the first Black person to get their PhD in Physical Chemistry from (name of University). He exposed me to a lot. But it’s important to do well, but it’s also important to do well by others. And I think that is also missing, people emphasizing the importance of doing well. But I know a lot of people that are smart and brilliant and do really bad things; you look down on other people, you exploit people for economic gain, you screw up the environment, you don’t respect the humanity of people less fortunate than them.

So I think knowledge and compassion, and also paying attention to current events, those things are important, the two most things for me that are important.

RB: Do you think this list of factors for determining a good teacher is same for the suburb as it is in an urban setting?

ROBERT: Yes and no, I think in suburban settings, in the more affluent suburbs of (lists of suburb names), the parents are more educated than the teachers themselves, they’ve traveled more, they have more disposable income, they’ve done much more. So teachers don’t really have a choice but to be the best teachers they can be, because the parents are very demanding. If you

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go to other suburbs, (lists other names of suburbs) parents are less educated or polished, or worldly and cosmopolitan, well I wouldn’t say cosmopolitan but. In the suburban sphere, you have certain things that parents just won’t tolerate: violence, abusive behavior, disruptive behavior. So you have that, but in the city you have so much more to deal with. So the parents won’t tolerate it, so the administrators know not to tolerate it, and the district offices know that there is a price to be paid for not delivering.

So I just think the city, there is no accountability because the teachers are usually better educated than the parents. And yeah, I think the values are just different. I think parents in the city love their children, they’re just tied up with the daily rigors of life: whether it’s broken homes, maybe its poverty, maybe its drug use, maybe its depression. But I think it’s Black teachers, Black professionals, and Black churches that should be able to fill the void as far as exposing kids. If you represent the leadership, I don’t necessarily blame the poor, but I think the Black leadership or the Black middle class should fill the void but I don’t think they’re doing that. You have the poor that live in the city and you have the working poor, and I think If you want to salvage a kid you are better off working with the working poor, because that work ethic can be translated to the classroom, but if your poor that work ethic is not there so it’s just much harder to deal with.

RB: Teacher student relationships, that’s the next area of discussion. When relating to students should lines be drawn and what do they look like?

ROBERT: I think it depends on the…well I don’t necessarily believe, well lines should be drawn, well is this in an urban setting?

RB: Yeah.

ROBERT: Okay, I think in order to be a successful teacher in and urban setting, lines should be blurred but students should realize that the teacher is an adult and the adult should realize students are students. I don’t think I should be best friends with a student. I think it depends on the personality of the teacher. As long as your not violating a student’s space or safety, I think in order to be a successful teacher in the city, you have to break the rules, you literally have to break the rules, you have to use unconventional methods to motivate the students. For instance, you know I’ve lied to my kids. I’ve asked them, you know, what do you want to be when you get older. And the kids will tell me straight out, “you know Mr. you’ll be upset with me if I tell you, because I respect you, but you’ll be upset with me.” And I say, “well tell me, what do you want to be?” And students tell me they want to be a drug dealer, straight faced. And I say “fine, graduate from school, spend six years of college to become a pharmacist so you’re making $100,000 dollars and if you want to become a really big drug dealer, and you want a Rolls Royce and a big house, then you go to Wharton School of Business or the University of Chicago and get your degree in finance so you can be a high end drug dealer, you can make half a million dollars a year. So no matter what they want to do, as long as I can relate it back to school, no matter how outlandish their idea might be. As long as you relate it back to school you can break the rules, as long as you don’t veer off, because then you can get in trouble.

RB: How does a teacher relate to parents in an urban setting?

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ROBERT: You make phone calls, you call parents when a student does not only something bad but good. You go to a parents house, you make home visits. My teacher did that with me, and it made a huge difference. It takes a lot more effort, but parents realize that you care about that kid, and the fact that you took time out of your schedule to make a home visit. They know a face, because a lot of time parents don’t have the time, they should find the time, but they don’t to visit school.

RB: How would you rank or rate the importance of relating to the student and parent as opposed to knowledge of content area, degree, or other professional measures of a teacher?

ROBERT: I think they’re both the same. Um, I say that because I think if you’re truly knowledgeable, if you look at anything, the history of mankind, of banking, of science. Really good teachers are so balanced, they’re not only good in the academic arena, they’re good in all aspects. Because you have to communicate with your students, you have to motivate them, you can’t use conventional approaches. If you’re a really good teacher, you can take anything that a kid is interested in, whether it is music, whether it is clothing or popular culture, there is a science behind everything. If your really well rounded it shouldn’t matter, but you have to communicate with people. You can know your subject matter but you have to communicate to people. If a student comes to school tired or hungry, they’re not going to want to listen to you.

RB: School structure and workplace harmony: In general, are there specific structures or administrative models that you believer are more effective?

ROBERT: In an urban setting?

RB: Yeah, well first of all in general and then in an urban setting.

ROBERT: I think a corporate business model should be used. You look at suburban ones, school districts for affluent, or medium income ones, that model has been proven effective. Parents realize that they’re tax dollars are paying for a service, and you want a return on your investment. So parents are the primary educators so you have to arm them with the tools to be successful. So teachers are supposed to reinforce what the parents have already taught.

So if there is a budget meeting or taking certain funding away from schools, suburban parents are there, so everyone is held accountable and they vote on that. They’re proactive. In the city they’re very reactionary, they respond after the fact. Suburban parents will write their congressman or woman and vote. Affluent ones are well connected not just statewide and locally but nationally connected to politics, so they make sure they get what they pay for. So there is definitely a difference in affluent areas. But you have to be better educated. So you’re better educated, and you have more resources and you can get what you want. You basically get what you want.

RB: So you’re talking about this top down corporate model…

ROBERT: Right, but the parents are like the CEOs of that corporation.

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RB: And that model is not the same in the urban areas…So who is at the top of that model in urban areas?

ROBERT: In the city it’s the administrators. If you go into a store, the customer is always right.

But in the city it is the administration. In the suburban area it’s parents-administrators-teachersstudents.

RB: And they’re getting the product that they want…

ROBERT: Well yeah because they’re constantly demanding it and (snapping fingers).

RB: Kind of buyer beware there is an informed consumer.

ROBERT: Yeah there is accountability. In the city, the administration runs everything, so central office and the house office, and then the students. The students run the schools because the parents are either ignorant, their tied down in their lives, or they don’t have the mental wherewithal to do anything. So the administration doesn’t do anything because the parents don’t say anything. Because if the parents said something the administration would have to work. So if it’s a failing system, it’s lucrative. For each, what are you paying, $12 or $13 thousand a year per student, that is big money. So you can’t suspend kids. Because I remember one time, I won’t say what school, someone came in and stole like ten computers and each computer is worth $800 times 10 computers, that’s $8,000 bucks. That’s a lot of money but if you suspend one kid, that’s 20 computers, roughly. If you suspend 10 kids that’s 200 (computers). That’s big money, so if you start suspending troublemakers, that’s big money and schools don’t receive as much money from the state. So that’s why they have in-school suspension because it’s big money. I mean it’s really sad and parents don’t say anything. If kids aren’t doing well in school, parents just put up with it.

You may have one or two parents that if they use the race card or make enough noise they’ll usually get what they want, even if their students aren’t doing well. The administrators will then twist the arms of the teachers to change the grade or whatever. But every once in a while you get a plucky teacher that knows that their right, doesn’t want to compromise their profession and will say look “this is what the student did, if you want to get upset with me then fine.” It’s pretty sad, so I think the students kind of run the schools as the administration just sits there, and everyone gets paid and there is no return on investment.

RB: The make up of the staff, how would you define diverse faculty or what would it look like?

ROBERT: That’s funny, you know it kills me. I’m glad you brought that up. You know it’s unfortunate that people believe if you brought in more Black teachers that students would learn, but you look at the community that is predominantly Black and Latinos and you have drugs and violence and suffering and every kind of pathology you can think of. The households are dysfunctional and there aren’t any White people there. They’re single parents and those aren’t running, they’re not effective or healthy. So everyone talks about diversity.

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Diversity to me, a diverse school would be not only what people looked like, but the course selection. So you would have calculus courses, various AP classes, and getting into good schools. That would be a diverse school to me. I would rather have the school be all White or Asian than have good teachers than have a bunch of Black and Latino teachers that were just mediocre. You look at the Black Scholars Program, I mean you have kids that are Black Scholars and they can’t even get into (name of local state school that is not so prestigious) or (the name of the local community college). White people look at that stuff and say “Black Scholars, how can you be a Black Scholar and you can’t even…” When I think of a scholar you get into Cornell and Harvard. How can you be a scholar and you can’t get into (names two local not so prestigious schools.) I mean I think there is something wrong with that program. If you think about it, you can’t have a C+ average and be a scholar.

So a diverse school to me would be a school that offered a wide range of courses and prepare students, not only in the math and sciences, but prepare them to be productive citizens. It shouldn’t have anything to do with color. I think the diverse people they say “we need more diversity.” But I think if you want to have more people from India and Asia. I mean why not have masters from the (local prestigious University) that are Indian, or Chinese or Korean to come teach inner city students math and science. So you’re exposing the kids to various cultures, your preparing them for the global economy, you’re making them productive citizens. So that’s what diversity means to me. A lot of people might not agree with me, (chuckling) but that’s just my take on it.

RB: What about workplace harmony, do you have good rapport with your colleagues?

ROBERT: Yeah I would say I do, I keep to my… I stay out of other people’s business, I keep my nose clean, I don’t take sides. I am there for students. I am a pleasant person, I treat everyone respectfully, both staff and students, so for me it’s good.

RB: Are there any instances in which that harmony has been challenged?

ROBERT: You mean from my personal experience?

RB: Yeah.

ROBERT: Oh yeah, a couple times.

RB: And let me remind you at this point that this interview is completely anonymous, and your name has not been documented and the recording will only be heard by me.

ROBERT: Okay, no you’re cool…One situation that left a bad taste in my mouth. I was working at a particular school, a teacher had injured themselves, and I was on a long term assignment. I remember that the superintendent popped into my classroom, I had no lesson plans and I was one of the few teachers to get a complement. So I was pretty happy about that. This swine flu thing was happening and people were pretty scared about that. One day and administrator came in and asked me to sub for some additional classes, mind you that this administrator was not originally from this country. And that will play in later. So I agreed to do it. But a colleague of mine had overheard the conversation and had admonished me from not entering that classroom. The

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teacher was sick and had swine flu, supposedly, the (other teachers) had made allegations. So the colleague had told me to confirm the rumor with a second teacher, and he also admonished me not to go into the classroom. Because there had been another teacher who had worked in that area and gotten really sick, swollen eyes, and they actually had to escort that teacher out of the school.

I had agreed to take over for that person that day. I had noticed that a teacher was actually whipping everything down so I realized that there was something going on. I then told this colleague, that if that happens and I get sick that I am going to come back and get this administrator in trouble. He responded, “you can do that, you could also die because people are dying.” So I thought about it and I was like, “You know you’re right.” So he said, “take your television across the hall,” because we were about to watch a movie.” So I took the television across the hall, and this administrator saw me take the television across the hall and she didn’t say anything. So at the end of the period, the administrator called me and said “why did you take the television out of the room?” And I said, “it was brought to my attention that a colleague of ours was not feeling to well,” and then she just started yelling at me. “How dare you do this, you should have consulted with me…” And I was like, “Well you saw me take the television and you didn’t say anything.” So I said, “Now wait a minute, I am a substitute teacher and we’re supposed to be our trust in you, but you put me at risk, you put the class in danger, you put the entire school in danger.” And I said, “I freaked out and I apologize for that.” So the next day, I substituted for that teacher again. I noticed the house administrators attitude with me had changed One day working for another teacher with that same house administrator, and I didn’t return her keys. Substitute teachers usually don’t furnish any keys, so I had to borrow it for something. And I forgot to return it and she said, “Don’t you ever do that again.” And I apologized for it. And then in front of three or four colleagues she said, (pounding/tapping on the desk with each word) “Do you understand me, do I make myself clear, bring my keys back to me. Do you understand?” And, I said I’m sorry and I’m biting my tongue and these colleagues are looking at me, thinking ‘are you just going to let her talk to you like a dog.’ And she says, “go go, I don’t have all day, shoot, leave.” And I said again, “look I apologize, I’ve worked with you, it’s been a pleasure working with you, you’re a professional, I’m a professional. I don’t deserve, like no one has the right to talk to me like that. And I apologized to you.” And she was like “alright jus go,” and I was like “no I’m not finished with you yet. How dare you? You know you hurt my feelings. If I’ve done something you can come pull me to the side, but you don’t have the right to just talk to me like that.” So then she realized that I wasn’t going to back down and she says, “did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?” I said, “Did you? I mean obviously you didn’t because you’re treating me in a disrespectful manner. And now I’m defending myself and you’re trying to switch the subject.” I think at that point she would have killed me if she could have gotten away with it. So then she said, “Is everything okay at home?”

So I said, “why are you trying to deflect attention, because your uncivilized, barbaric behavior towards me?” I said I mad a mistake, a small mistake, and then “yet you basically felt you had the right to just disrespect me like that.” And she said, “well I’m sorry.” And I said, “well okay we’re fine.” She never called me back up to teach at that school.

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So just because I stood up to her, and I didn’t want to put my kids lives in danger or put my life in danger, she decided to teach me a lesson. But I realize that um, how kids behave in the inner city, I don’t think Black parents, Hispanic parents, poor White parents, love their children any less than affluent parents. They just transmit that love in different ways, instead of purchasing books and teaching the rudimentary aspects of an education, they transmit that in a different way.

But they still love their children. And this lady was from uh, (small pause) she’s from India, actually. And it really left a bad taste in my mouth. Because on one hand I respect her for the fact that she’s very firm with the students and for a lot of our students you have to be like that or they’ll just run amuck. But on the other hand, it’s like you put everyone in the school in great peril. So as a person, I just have no respect for her and that’s happened with Black Administrators as well, I’m not just… But it really left a bad taste in my mouth.

RB: What about in your workplace in general, is there a positive atmosphere among faculty members?

ROBERT: There used to be. Well now where I work at, there is. But where I work at it’s closed off from the rest of the school, working with kids that are about to be suspended from school, that are given a second chance. So among the faculty there, there is a positive atmosphere.

RB: What about teachers and administrators?

ROBERT: Well there is tension between teachers and administrators.

RB: And are there any themes or issues that that’s about?

ROBERT: It’s about power and respect. Teachers feel that certain administrators want to rule with an iron hand and they won’t listen to anything they have to say. They want them to go above and beyond the call of duty to teach yet they aren’t willing to make compromises.

RB: What compromises?

ROBERT: Work an extra hour, have teachers teach a course they aren’t qualifies for or don’t want to teach. You have teachers stabbing each other in the back, it’s a hot mess. But this is just like hearsay sort of. I am never directly involved in anything because I keep a low profile.

RB: What factors contribute to the commitment level of teachers to their school community?

ROBERT: I think if teachers feel appreciated and receive support from administrators and parents to make their jobs easier then I think you would see more support. A lot of teachers are just burnt out, it’s 3 o’clock and they’re just like (whistles), regardless of location. Then there is a small cadre of teachers on the fringes that are just committed, regardless of what’s going on in the world. They’re just going to make the world, improve their students’ lives. They’re just going to make their immediate surrounding world a better place.

RB: So you’re saying it’s something inherent inside them. Would you consider teaching in the suburbs if a position opened up in a few years.

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ROBERT: Oooo yeah definitely. (chuckling) You know it’s funny, I talk to a lot of Black teachers and they say, “Oh I would never teach in the suburbs, it would just be harder.” So once again, they would be demanding and want you to provide the best possible education for their children. With that being said, I think Black educators throughout the country, and I can speak in this particular area for myself, that they do themselves a huge disservice. Not only themselves but they do Black people a huge disservice by not teaching out in suburban areas. Because I think if you’re competent, you’re well rounded, I’m not saying that you’re not going to deal with racism, politics, scheming behind closed doors, or whatever. I think it gives White people a chance to see Black people in a way that they maybe never have seen a Black person before. I don’t think most White people are bad it’s just that the views that most White people have of Black People come from history, or maybe what other relatives in their family pass down to them – that’s as far as racist values. I don’t think most White people have contact with a first-rate Black person. I am not saying that you have a first-rate Black person or a second-rate Black person, I am not in to class-ism. When I say first-rate Black person, I am talking about someone that is comfortable in their skin and can go anywhere and feel comfortable based on their knowledge and personal experiences. But a person that will demand to be treated with the utmost respect and courtesy. I think most White people are not used to bumping up with Black people who are just as smart as they are. You can have your masters degree or doctorate, but that doesn’t necessarily make you knowledgeable.

RB: In the factors you’ve listed, do you think these are learned in the education programs that colleges provided or learned somewhere else.

ROBERT: They gain the skills ounce they are in the classroom, once they student teach. I had a colleague of mine, who just quit actually, taught for four or five years, grew up in an inner city area, White guy, brilliant, idealistic, I mean the guy is sharp. I mean I think I am a pretty knowledgeable person, but this guy read a lot. And he could relate well, because he went to school in a similar environment. And it’s like teachers become administrators because they no longer want to teach. Because, you know, they’re burnt out, and they don’t want to teach. Folks downtown, are just higher level administrators, it’s like a gravy train. And I think teachers just get burnt out and they think the stuff they taught me in school was a bunch of crap. “Do this, do that,” and when you’re removed from the environment, it’s like an insane asylum.

RB: (chuckling) ROBERT: I think you got to flood the schools and communities with mental health workers.

I read an article about post-traumatic slave disorder and I think I am doing okay, there are still some things I have to work on. I mean how can we as Blacks, Hispanics, you’ve been persecuted, you’ve been traumatized for hundreds of years, how could I not be messed up? So you have a person that comes into this environment, so Black teachers can easily deal with it, because they come from the environment. So that’s why they say more Black teachers. So that’s an easy pay day for dumb Black teachers. I’m just straight up. And if you’re a White person, your so far removed from the pain and pathology, it looks good in a book, and then you go in the city and you’re like “what the hell have I got myself into?”

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So you have the theory and then the application. The theory is great but when it comes to applying it, you just realize the stuff they taught you is a bunch of crap. Because it’s one thing to say in Africa, people are hungry and you can over come things with a good education. But if I haven’t had something to eat.

I was talking to a girl the other day, her mother’s a crack head on heroin, her father raped her.

How are you supposed to teach someone that is that messed up and they don’t trust authority?

And you’re white and the only time they see white people, it’s social workers and police officers, detectives, and judges lockin’ their parents up and prison guards. And then you see White people come to school, and their culturally isolated. And then the teachers definitely get it once they get inside the classroom and engage in war (snickering).

RB: Finally are there any external factors, aside from knowledge of content area and other things we’ve talked about, that contribute to effective teaching in an urban setting?

ROBERT: Parents. Parents are the primary teachers and so children learn by mimicry. They are hardwired. That’s how they learn right from wrong. If you are used to reading the newspaper, then your kids will eventually want to read the newspaper.

Also the infrastructure of the Black community, Black churches, Black Professionals.

Transcript of interview with John John’s background: Jamaican-American male adjunct teacher of sociology at the college level.

He is inn his mid-30s, and his wife is an elementary teacher in an urban school.

RB: Why did you go into teaching, and specifically a history, sociology teacher?

JOHN: When I was an undergraduate (at college), I was a computer science and taking math classes, my father was a teacher so I guess I was influenced by that, but I thought it would be a good gig, you get to talk to people all the time about stuff. So I kind of wanted to be like a math professor, but after a while I realized that math was not my thing. After Calculus III or so, I thought this shit is crazy (laughing). You have to prove everything, and it’s just a bunch of proofs and shit. I took three sociology classes at the time, because my girlfriend at the time was a sociology major. So I took three soc. classes, and I loved intro, and Deviant Behavior and I hated Social Pscychology, but I loved those two so much that I switched my major and decided I wanted to be a sociology major.

You know I taught school as a substitute teacher in the (school district).

RB: What makes you unique going into the teaching profession or from your colleagues where you are right now?

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JOHN: Well, I’m the only Black male (laughing). That makes me a little unique (still chuckling).

I’m the only one who is an immigrant from another country. So that gives me a different perspective sometimes still.

RB: In your department?

JOHN: Oh yeah, so I still think that gives me a different perspective than other people. And a Black immigrant too, that gives you a different experience. I live in a, a lot of the stuff in the CJ department I am in, in Criminal Justice they talk about street crime, as opposed to corporate or governmental deviance primarily, and even though I have a problem with that, but I am the only one that lives in the inner city in my entire department. So I think that gives me a different perspective on this, in terms of the experience of it, than they bring to it. Actually, I’m lying, there’s one other person that lives in the city, I’m lying. But it gives me a different perspective I think on this stuff.

RB: You think living in a place is different than watching it on TV or reading about it?

JOHN: Yes, I am not saying you can’t know. With academia you can definitely know things about neighborhoods without actually going there but I think it gives you a different perspective, that is complimentary to some degree. You know you can use census data on a map, but actually going there in person. And it’s not that what you are seeing is wrong by using census data or whatever, it’s just you get a different, or in my opinion - nuanced, perspective by actually interacting with people in the neighborhood or living in the neighborhood.

RB: These are more teaching philosophy questions now: what factors determine for you a good teacher, in general, not specifically to you personally but then let me frame it with the second question I will be asking. Are those the same factors that would be used to determine good teaching in an urban school setting? So first in general, teaching in America in suburban, or rural settings, versus teaching in an urban area. Is there a different list of factors?

JOHN: So what it is like to be a teacher, if I was a teacher in an urban setting? What it means to be a good teacher?

RB: Because you were as a substitute?

JOHN: Yeah, a good teacher in general, you got to be patient if you’re dealing with kids. I think issues of equity are important, as teachers talk about it. Whether it is race, class, gender, or sexuality, stuff like that, I think is important at any level, of teaching.

You have to be passionate about your subject to some degree. You can’t have, I’ve had teachers at school when I was a student, where they weren’t even certified in that area.

And also classroom management, my God, you have to keep people from just going nuts in a classroom.

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RB: Let me define some terms. When I am referring to urban school systems, I am not talking about elite schools you find in New York City. I am talking about underprivileged, primarily Black and Hispanic kind of thing.

JOHN: I went to an elite high school in (name of city), you know even though there were still significant numbers of racial minorities that were there, we’re talking downtown (name of city). (laughing) So you’re not going to get too many white folks jumping ship to…(more laughter).

Yeah my high school was pretty integrated too.

RB: About student teacher relationships, in relating to students should lines be drawn and what do they look like? As a college teacher it is probably different than say a high school or middle school teacher?

JOHN: Yes. Which one do you want me to speak to?

RB: First start off with your own personal experience as a college teacher.

JOHN: As far as my college experience, I am still very close to a professor at (name of college) soc. department. And that’s just been a wonderful thing for me. So we’ve definitely crossed the boundary where we’ve become very good friends. Some people think that professors should just be, you know, just about they come to your office hours and talk to you and that should be about it. But I don’t necessarily think that because college is a time where students are going through so much, and you’ve gone through it already and some of that stuff is really hard and if you can give them some advice I think that’s fine. I mean there’s a health center and all but even now students come to you and you try to help them out. They see you in almost a weird sense, not just as a professor but as a counselor, especially African American students, especially African American male students. They’ll come to me and say, “Oh man you understand what we’re going through or the stuff you talk about in class, you understand where we come from.” And they say that to me.

RB: So that’s almost inherent in the position and just your skin color…

JOHN: Yeah, just my experience, where I’ve lived and my history.

RB: How does a teacher, I don’t know if this is going to apply to you but I will ask it anyways.

How does a teacher connect to parents?

JOHN: Well you know, like at my wife’s school, in terms of connecting with parents they’ve done a great thing there at (school name – (of a school in an urban setting)). They have a parent liaison, I think the school district has that in general, but she’s really good of getting in contact with parents if the students cut up. Even when I was a substitute teacher, and students would get crazy, and seriously I would be like “call up your parents right now, call your grandmother right now.” (chuckling) But that is crucial. At times the parents, you know, for whatever reasons their working two or three jobs or they don’t know how to interact with, for the most part, white middle class people, you know white middle class women, especially at the elementary level, that can be fraught with…

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RB: Which is a predominant demographic of the teaching profession?

JOHN: At least at the elementary level and maybe even the junior high level too. Sometimes there’s just cultural misunderstanding or not knowing or the anxiety that goes with interacting with someone who is potentially working class poor Black and who is middle class white who has lived in the suburb, continues to live in the suburb. And I’m not saying a suburb that is integrated, there are integrated suburbs - somewhat integrated suburbs, an all-White suburb and this person lives in a completely segregated all-Black neighborhood and sometimes an interaction is fraught with tension.

RB: How would you rank the importance of relating to parents and students as opposed to knowledge of content area or degree held – other professional measures of a teacher?

JOHN: I think content is more important.

RB: Are you now speaking from a college professor standpoint or from a high school or middle school perspective?

JOHN: I guess I have no contact with parents at all, but I still think content is more important then relationships with parents. That is really important also. You have to develop a relationship where parents feel comfortable talking with you, and parents are going to follow up.

RB: Why do you put content above relating to parents? You’re saying that right.

JOHN: I had a chemistry teacher in high school and granted I went to a specialized high school so there weren’t that many behavioral problems in the classrooms and so forth. But this woman was very nice but she taught me chemistry and I believe her degree was in English. She taught my first semester and you were supposed to take it for two semesters, but after the first semester I was done with chemistry. I hated it and I think it was because the way she taught it. She didn’t know exactly what she was doing, I ended up getting like a 90 the second quarter but I was so done with chemistry, I was so turned off. I never took a chemistry course for the rest of my life.

RB: So the impressions that are made at such a…

JOHN: Yes, at an early age I was done, never again I said to myself.

RB: I had a similar experience with art.

JOHN: Spanish is another thing. It’s the only subject I had to go to summer school for. (laughing) Even when I applied to college, I only applied to colleges that didn’t have a foreign language requirement. I was done. It’s one of the reasons why I went back to sociology to get my PhD from history, because if you get a PhD in history you have to do some stupid foreign language test, even if you do American history. Screw that shit, I’d rather do statistics any day, than frickin’ Spanish.(laughing)

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RB: (laughing) Okay, I’m going to move into school structure topics. In general, are there school structures or particular administration or organizational models that are more effective in general schools and then maybe different for urban school settings?

JOHN: Well I like the model at my wife’s school in terms of administration. You know at the college level, it’s a whole other beast. You know we are just much more autonomous. This is one of the reasons I decided to teach at a college. I mean I had a Masters in History, I could have said screw the PhD it’s going to take me 50 million years and make me poor, might as well just teach high school. I mean you’re doing similar stuff, it’s just at a different level, but there’s a lot more autonomy at the college level.

I like the structure at (name of school where his wife teaches). They have a grade level meeting every week with the Principal, special ed. and regular ed teachers for the particular grade level.

And I think they also meet with people who do expeditionary learning. But I like that structure where they meet all the time, where they’re collaborating and talking about individual students and how they can make them succeed all the time.

And it’s more than the organizational structure, it’s the ideology behind what they’re doing.

There at (name of school) the population there, in terms of demographics and poverty, it’s very much like a lot of the other schools in the school district, it’s pretty much the same, but they’re very successful, as measured by test scores. There’s a couple reasons for that and one of them is this idea of high expectations. They expect students to do well, they don’t accept doing lower.

They don’t say “well you know you come from poor, racially segregated neighborhoods, and you had horrible lives.” And they understand that, and their cognizant of that, the whole high school, the whole theme is going to be social justice, so they’re very much concerned with issues of race, class, gender, all that stuff and how that influences individual families and teachers’ interaction with them.

They did an urban expedition, where they went into the community, which I was a part of that, helped them. My wife was part of this (name of program at a university) and they had to do a project and they did urban expedition, where they brought the school, the staff and faculty out into the community to see what community resources are available. I mean some of these teachers had never been into the communities where their live at all, ever. And they went out and walked these neighborhoods, not just drive by in your car with the doors locked (chuckling), hope you don’t stay at the light too long kind of thing (chuckling). But I think that’s really helpful, especially teaching in an urban environment.

RB: The make up of the staff. Diverse faculty. How would you define a diverse faculty, what does it look like?

JOHN: Well it depends, that word diversity is thrown around so damn much, because there could be racial diversity, geographic diversity, diversity in terms of gender or sex or whatever. But in a particular school, in terms of the faculty, I guess when I think of diversity, I think when many people talk about diversity, it’s a way for them to talk about race without saying race. We live in this colorblind era, where everybody is supposedly colorblind and racism is gone so. (cough) Even in instances where people know what they really mean is race, they won’t even say the

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word. So they use crap like diversity or multiculturalism, and those kinds of euphemisms as far as I’m concerned. (chuckles) But in terms of faculty I think it’s important. You definitely need people of different racial backgrounds, I think sexuality is important too. I think especially for kids, it’s important to see gay people and not be like “oh my god” they’re not evil sinners that are going to come and kill me or something. The stuff that some of the kids say is unbelievable. A lot of it comes from their parents and church. But I think that’s important to have that kind of diversity too, and have women as math teachers and science teacher too and stuff like that.

So diversity not in just sheer numbers but what they are doing. So you have Black people working at your building, are they just cleaning? You have Latino people, are they just part of the janitorial staff? If they are, these particular people, it would be nice to see them at different levels of the school. At (name of school where his wife works) in terms of Black teachers, they have maybe only one, two, three Black classroom teachers maybe. They have improved as far as the numbers in their staff, but for a long time, except for maybe one or two that were teaching assistants, but not classroom teachers and no one in administration. I mean the same thing with colleges, in terms of Black professors. Actually (name of the college he works at) does amazingly well compared to any place I’ve ever been. There’s like a Black person in every department.

RB: Do you sense there’s a kind of, what came first the chicken or the egg syndrome here?

Administrations or districts make the excuse that, “well we can’t recruit them because they’re not available.”

JOHN: Colleges say the same shit.

RB: That there’s not enough qualified applicants.

JOHN: That’s what they always say about us. (chuckling) RB: But there would be more qualified applicants if there were more people of color perhaps in positions to inspire, and keep and engage students of color to pursue PhDs or pursue higher degrees or teacher qualifications. So it’s almost cyclical then.

JOHN: You know people have told me, when you’re done with your PhD there’s no doubt that you’ll be able to get the job and I sense that that’s actually the case. It might not be here where I want it to be, might be in fucking wy-coo-coo Wisconsin or something. But if a specific school, see I went to (name of college he attended) as an undergraduate, granted it’s a state school not a private institution. If you see people at an undergraduate institution that want to go and get a PhD, you can nurture them and help them, especially if you want them to come back. If you can help them financially, you know teachers if they teach in a particular school, the government or state will take away a certain amount of their loans. Some type of program like that to recruit minority faculty would be great. I mean they do fellowships for minorities, some kind of loan forgiveness. I’d go back in a heartbeat. (chuckling) RB: So money plays a big factor in everything.

JOHN: Absolutely.

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RB: Do you have good rapport with your colleagues and are there any instances where the harmony was challenged?

JOHN: In terms of my immediate department, yes: it’s the best department I’ve ever taught in, just very laid back. I can be completely myself, and I can be completely myself in terms of race too. You know Black people joke about race all the time and sometimes White people we just don’t let them in on it. But everybody is cool.

But in terms of other people in the university, sometimes you interact with someone and they do stupid shit and you have to call them on it. In the semester that just ended, I was teaching a class and this guy walks into my class, probably an older Black gentleman part of the custodial staff, he walks into my class and gives some note to a student who works for the (name of facilities unit for the university), passes him a note and then walks right out of class, without even saying anything to me, just walks in and out of my class. So later in the quarter, another (name of facilities unit) worker, this time a student, comes into the back of my class and is looking around and writing stuff down. And I ask him, “hey what are you doing here?” He said taking a survey or whatever. And I say, “okay, you have 30 seconds” and he was busy counting the people and he left, calls his supervisor and says I had harassed him and reprimanded him and all this kind of stuff. When I told my students this they were like what the hell, that’s insane, nothing like that happened. But his supervisor (for facilities unit) sent an email, not even cc’d to me or my department chair but sent it to the associate dean of the college of liberal arts, saying that “that African American gentleman who was teaching” in whatever building “harassed my student,” and an email was sent out about this in some messaging service, and tons are sent out and no one ever reads them and you just delete them. And it was embedded in some fucking email, where it wasn’t even in the title, so I told her, “hey I recognize I didn’t read that email, but this was in the context, my reaction to your student does not constitute harassment, or reprimanding in any way.

This was in the context of one of your people just coming into my classroom in the middle of my damn lecture, hands someone some fucking not and leaves my classroom.” I said, “What is this shit about African American gentleman? I was like mam, she was older so I tried to say mam just to make sure she realized that, like mam old lady. (chuckling) I’m not even African American culturally, I’m Jamaican number one and I’m sure when you sent out emails to your other colleagues you don’t put European American gentleman either, so why are you bringing up my supposed race here in the first place. This shit doesn’t make any sense.

You’re always going to meet White folks, encounter White folks like that in any predominantly White institution. So it may not be your immediate department but it might be stuff like that.

RB: Did you see any conflicts or lack of harmony between the administration and staff?

JOHN: I’ve seen it at the college level. The secretary of our department is completely incompetent. Even right now, messes things up all the time. And this is (name of school) and this is a private school so you would think it would just be easy to fire her, but she’s Black and female so she gets protected status. And even though everyone in the department thinks she has to go, the administration won’t fire her. But they put her in the position because they couldn’t find, so it’s not necessarily her fault because she doesn’t know what to do and is incompetent.

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They couldn’t find someone to fill the postion with the money they were doing it with. They tried to hire someone, but they literally just needed a body to answer the phone and just picked her from somewhere in the college of liberal arts and threw her there, she was like making copies before. Completely incompetent, doesn’t know what’s going on, and they don’t want to fire her.

But I’ve also seen conflict, oh my God, I was at (name of school), people don’t like each other because of the kind of research they do. You have stupid crap like that, qualitative versus quantitative or if your conservative as opposed to liberal. I mean you see those kind of conflicts too.

RB: What determines teacher commitment to school or to building school community?

JOHN: I think if they buy into the ideology of the school. At (name of school) teachers are committed and do a lot of things that the union wouldn’t necessarily be down with.

RB: For example?

JOHN: The number times they have to meet in the summers.

RB: Oh, I get it, the time spent, almost volunteer time because they’ve bought into the spirit…

JOHN: They’ve bought into the ideology, they’ve bought into the spirit of what the administration is doing.

RB: Are there meetings on weekends sometimes or no?

JOHN: Yeah my wife meets on the weekends, they don’t necessarily have to but they do.

RB: Would you, I think you can speak on behalf of your wife, or if you were teaching high school, would she or you consider teaching in the suburb if a position was offered?

JOHN: Well, my wife definitely wants to stay in this environment.

RB: Right because she’s in a good situation.

JOHN: Even beyond that, she seems to be dedicated to teaching in an urban setting.

RB: Why is that?

JOHN: I think that sometimes when you go to college, you become socially conscious, and aware of issues of equity in education as folks talk about it. But you know, issues of race and class especially become much more salient. And you think about how you can help those people at least, those people that are poor or racially stigmatized.

RB: In the factors you listed for effective teaching, do you believe these are learned in the educational program colleges provide or learned elsewhere?

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JOHN: I think it’s a combination of both. It can be learned in an education program. In the college programs, I’ve seen, most of the students in these programs are White students, most of them come from suburban areas. It’s not that they haven’t had contact with racial minorities in any way, but they don’t adequately prepare them for understanding the sociology and history of what the situation is of where these kids are living.

RB: Why parents aren’t showing up to parents’ night.

JOHN: You hear teachers saying this stuff, well you don’t anymore at (name of school) after the expeditionary stuff, well if the parents would just be involved then pretty much their life would be set. It’s the parents’ fault. It’s kind of a very American, very individualistic way of assigning blame. Not the parents exist within a social context outside of just. A lot of them are doing work in more than one job, or they work a night shift or they work where it’s not salaried, they pay hourly, so it’s hard to take off time. A lot of them don’t have transportation, like literally. We think everyone has a car in America. You got to take a bus, even if you leave work, by the time you get to school anyway. Or they have lots of trouble. You know every class my wife, somebody has a parent in prison. Their neighborhoods are highly segregated with lots of violence.

I think teachers need to be taught about this and be empathetic and understand what’s going on instead of just saying those are just bad people, they just engage in bad behavior because they simply choose to. Maybe they choose to, but what is the context in which people are choosing to do this? I think that needs to be done more in terms of preparing teachers to teach in a city environment.

RB: Does it take expeditionary kinds of visits to the neighborhood? Or can you learn that in a classroom?

JOHN: To some degree you can learn it in the classroom. I think you should be required to take classes on urban/sociology and education, the literature on what it’s like to teach in an urban school district. But at the same time, I think they should do that for suburban school districts also, for any school district you want to go to the sociology of that area is extremely important.

Even more so for places you’ve never been, or experienced and a lot of your knowledge may be from local news which is showing you as criminals and distorting that image anyway. You should be required to take a course on race and ethnicity, or at least race and ethnicity in education, a course on urban studies or urban education. This should be required for teachers that want to teach in the city. Even urban history, African American history, most of the kids are African American and Latino, you got to know that I think to understand.

RB: Are there any additional factors that we haven’t mentioned that contribute to best practices in an urban setting?

JOHN: Well I think the overall program that the school decides to adopt. Expeditionary learning for example, so far from what I’ve seen it works very well and not just in (name of the city). I’ve

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heard about other places elsewhere. They have like the America’s Choice thing, that doesn’t seem to have worked as well. (chuckling) RB: What does inquiry based, can you explain that? It’s one of those terms again that is just thrown out there.

JOHN: Well at (name of school) it’s not just thrown out there, it’s real. They do projects basically and it’s expeditionary. A lot of it’s outside, they go canoeing, they go camping, they go to the museum, but it’s all education related. But even in their classroom also, they work on projects throughout the entire year. And the kids actually have a say in to what the project is that they do, so they’re constantly involved. A lot of the instruction is tied into that particular expedition. It’s great.

Transcript of interview with Cameron Cameron’s background: A black male teacher and immigrant from Africa. He teaches math and sciences at a middle school in an urban area.

RB: Just to define some terms, when I say urban school setting I am not talking about your elite schools like Stuyvesant or B-Tech, but more the sort of underprivileged primarily Black and Latino type urban setting, typical of urban schools in America.

Why did you go into teaching?

CAMERON: That is a long answer. When I went into Engineering, one of the ways I could learn English was socializing with students. And I worked for four years as a tutor and the only requirement to tutor was you had to have a B or better in the grade you were tutoring, and I was tutoring calculus and physics for free. I could have been paid and I liked it.

A few years later I went into industry, was working with AT&T. I didn’t like working in industry. I liked the math and the curiosity but working 9 to 5 doing the same thing was not my interest. It didn’t challenge me, because you had to have a masters degree or PhD to do research, so I was used as a technician. So I left, but before I left, I asked what did I like? I liked tutoring and teaching came into mind and that’s how it started.

RB: As a teacher, separate from your colleagues, what makes you unique?

CAMERON: Well I am an individual, which means different backgrounds, broad training in math science, physics and pure math. And math to me is as a culture as sport is to Michael Jordan. And that’s my difference from the others. They studied math to become a teacher, I became a teacher by default. But I bring all those backgrounds into teaching. That’s one difference.

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Secondly, I am not from this culture so teaching to me is probably the most prestigious job on earth. It’s changing someone’s mind, it’s imparting knowledge, far better than designing a machine or chip to do things. That in itself is my internal drive. You’re changing people’s life, you’re imparting some kind of insight. In this culture it is not seen that way.

RB: Philosophy questions now, what factors determine a good teacher and secondly do you think that list of factors is different in an urban setting than in other school areas?

CAMERON: No, good teaching is good teaching anywhere, whether it’s in an urban or suburban setting. It is human communications. It is a dynamic between a teacher and a student. It’s a twoway communication. Does the environment change your communications? Yes you have to understand your student, you have to understand you. We are dealing with kids who may not have been taught that math is their culture, it is not a suburban thing or a White thing, it’s a human culture, like art is, like sport is.

So it’s your job to diffuse many, many misconceptions. Speaking of math, because that’s what I teach, if you go to (name of suburban school) you probably don’t have to explain that. You teach a subject and the kids are coming in with a value system, you know, this course is going to help me progress in college or achieve my dreams. But here you have to break the wall – “I’m not going to be successful in math. I haven’t seen someone successful look like me in this field.”

RB: So you’re not just teaching the math but your fitting it into how the student would receive it.

CAMERON: Yes, it is a whole communication. You don’t communicate in a vacuum. There is a medium and the medium could be a noise or it could be very meaningful dialogue and meaningful relationships. And there is a set of belief systems you can break piece by piece. That, “I’m not good at math. Who told you that?” That “Asians are good at math. Who told you that?”

That “Whites are successful in this subject. Who told you that?” You need to demythologize those perceptions, then the math becomes relevant to the student.

RB: You said de…

CAMERON: Demythologize means dymystify.

CAMERON: You know I survey my students – African American, Asian, White, who’s good in math? And 99 percent will say the Asian, and next will be the White. And if I say, well then who is good at sport? Ninety-nine percent will say African Americans. So you know one race has dominant in one culture versus the other? Isn’t that a human culture? Sport is a human culture, art is and math is. So those perceptions are part of the student thinking. You have to break that.

RB: Teacher student relationships – and I think we talked about this a little bit already, but more specifically should lines be drawn between the teacher and student and what do they look like?

CAMERON: That’s a very tough question to answer because students are well informed. They know there place in society. Grown ups also know who these students and they want to keep them in line, that’s how they were trained. To go between those two boundaries is very tricky.

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First you have to build trust between the students that there is relationship that is very respectful and based on honesty and integrity. But students might not appreciate that.

You know so and so told me that I have to sit straight, I have to listen, I have to call him Mr. or Miss. That’s a very tricky issue.

RB: Is it one your continually adjusting and learning about or is it one you…

CAMERON: You have to make it upfront, you have to make it - this is where I’m coming from and I know where you’re coming from and share this. Put everything on the table. I could be a disciplinarian and there wouldn’t be any second guessing or I could be very elusive and open ended and build trust from that – from nothing to something. Or everything could be controlled, every variable will be known and that trust bridge will not be built.

That’s why it is difficult in an urban setting. Because kids will say I could walk over this teacher, I could do a lot of things here without being accountable. So which one is better, to control them with no opportunity to digress or create opportunity for them to say “I have a stake here. You’re not the only one who is teaching here, I am also teaching you.” That journey is fruitful long term.

It might be chaotic but it will end up benefiting both.

RB: Is there time to make those connections in one year or can it happen over a semester, what’s your experience with that?

CAMERON: If the environment of the building has that kind of tone, it will be much easier for the teacher to operate under those premises. But if I’m doing something else and then next door is something else, then the student will be confused and the message will not be the same. I could do this will this teacher and do that with that teacher instead of a set of standards of how we communicate with each other, how we treat each other. And there is an adult and a young adult, that kind of norm has to be established by the school. It’s not just an individual thing.

RB: How does a teacher connect or relate to parents?

CAMERON: Um, you can be diplomatic, fit the status quo. Call five times and put it in your book. That fits the status quo.

RB: (Snickers) CAMERON: Or you could be upfront, so and so is not doing the work and it could be in writing.

RB: How would you rate the importance of relating to students and parents as opposed to knowledge of content area, degree and other potential measures of a teacher.

CAMERON: In the high school age, talking to parents, in my experience, brings very little benefit. I think most of the energy should be invested on the young child who is trying to become an adult, who is trying to assume responsibilities. And that’s probably the most effective way.

You have to trust them you have to respect them, and then hold them accountable.

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RB: Are there any school structures or models that you believe are more effective overall and then in an urban setting?

CAMERON: In an urban setting, academics are marginalized. Professional development, talking to parents, all the other marginal issues, take center stage. There is not core academic expectation, that’s the medium for everything we do. We’re here to teach for them to write, think, to do math, science. The rest has to be a support for that goal, but we do the reverse, you know. Talking to parents, going to professional growth, and all kinds of things that the district broadly advocates. You know the district can’t be specific. It can’t just say professional growth, that’s too broad. You can’t go to 20 workshops and not do anything in the classroom, because you have tons of workshops that you have attended to show that you are a competent teacher. So academic should be the center of everything we do, because that’s what they need. Socially they are more competent than a kid from (name of suburb). They have a huge asset in emotional intelligence. They can cope with life without my support, if it was just life. But they don’t have the academic. So they need to be competent in the reading, writing, and math. And we do marginalize that in an urban setting.

RB: Diverse faculty. How would you define diverse faculty, what does it look like?

CAMERON: Diversity could mean many things, it could mean physical diversity, having a number of African American and Latino teachers. It could also mean those non-minorities that bring a degree of activism to support poor kids. They don’t get the necessary support, because this huge status quo doesn’t want to mess up with the norm. So you could be White, and strongly believe that these kids need a fundamental understanding in math and science but you’ll be the minority, not just by color but your idea. Your idea will not be respected or appreciated.

And from both the minorities will say why is this person trying to be more Black than I am? Or the majority groups will say why is this person trying to be a minority? Your color doesn’t speak anything, your deed does and diversity means people work together with respect, dignity to bring change. And it is not a group thing, it’s a holistic approach. That we don’t have, because if you had like five Blacks, you’re all set. But those five Blacks can not function in a system that does not respect their ideas or their approach. So either A – they adjust to the norm or they become, you know, lone warriors.

RB: Workplace harmony. Do you have good rapport with your colleagues?

CAMERON: No, I know they expect it.

RB: Are there instances when this harmony was challenged?

CAMERON: There’s no need to. If there is a huge norm established, one voice is not going to be heard among the majority. Unless I go and sue the school, this is not accepted, this is not education, then you will get recognition or you might be challenged. If you are voicing an opinion that is different than the majority and the majority is okay, is status quo, is happy, then it is nothing, it is just a noise it is not a communication. And for the one individual it will be an

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enormous cost of opportunity to fight that system individually. They can do anything they want inside their classroom, but to change the system, you need a systemic approach. But the status quo doesn’t need change. It is much easier to maintain poverty, racism, and discrimination than to fight it.

RB: I guess this is the same kind of question, is there a positive atmosphere among faculty, just at that layer?

CAMERON: It’s a positive atmosphere just as long as you don’t touch the issues.

RB: If you don’t talk about issues, what issues?

CAMERON: For example if you don’t talk that if you don’t have a high expectation for these kids, when they go to college they will not survive. And to change that is a profound change. If you raise those kind of questions, the response will be ‘we didn’t do this, we live in America, there’s racism, there’s poverty, there’s nothing we can do.” Yeah we can change our environment, we can not change what happens on (name of street in city) we can’t give therapy to everyone, but we can give core academic value to the kids who come and that way they can go and succeed at life. That we can change.

RB: So what you are advocating is a little bit more of a disruptive atmosphere upfront to create a better atmosphere for the students later in the longrun.

CAMERON: And people may see that I am raising this because I happen to be Black, which is not really the issue. You could be White and raise the same issue, because that’s what teachers do, they inquire. That’s why teaching is prestigious in other cultures, because you have the last word. You know you’re not looking for your self-interest. You’re looking for the interests of society. In that way it’s difficult.

RB: How is the atmosphere between the faculty and the students?

CAMERON: It depends, if you tell them the truth you are disturbing their own norm. If you tell a brilliant student at math, him or her, that you’re not doing enough, you can’t survive. You need to take a course at (names of local colleges), you see you need to work hard versus another person saying “oh you’re doing good, you’re doing exemplary.” You have a long way to go in life. The kid at 16 or 17 is going to think for today not for tomorrow. So that kid may have a different relationship with that person who is, there used to be a Saturday Night Live guy who is now a Senator – Al Franken. “Everybody likes me..” I don’t know his line, but if you communicate this way to a 16 year-old, they may be happy, versus if you told them the truth that they need extra courses in math. “I only need three credits and I am leaving.” Another teacher may support them and say okay, and give them a diploma. So the students are also part of this cycle of, who do I trust, who is telling me now, those kinds of issues.

RB: Are there any themes that emerge from this discussion on harmony in the workplace?

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CAMERON: It is about the core values you have, versus this fluffy, you know, existence. And they don’t correlate, it’s not a personality issue, it’s not a race issue, it is not a gender issue. It’s a belief system that these poor kids require the most rigid and the most demanding expectations, because their chance of survival depends on this. Versus let them move, they’ll recycle into the American fabric some will make it and some will be surplus in society. How can your reconcile with that, for the interest of harmony? So I am not looking forward to harmony. It doesn’t have any meaning or clarity.

RB: What factors contribute to a teacher’s commitment to school community?

CAMERON: Being honest, being aware that the kids you serve, their backgrounds, their past when they’re in your hands today and where they will be tomorrow when they leave you. Being conscious of those three.

RB: So you’re talking about temporal awareness…

CAMERON: You can’t say “the poor kid, he didn’t know math” you can’t operate from those premises. It has to be there is a past, you can’t change that, there is a present you have some opportunity to change that and there is a future that some day this kid will be an engineer, this kid will be a leader. And I will be playing a small part in that journey. That belief system is what teaching is.

RB: Would you consider teaching in the suburbs in a few years if the position was offered?

CAMERON: No I am already established here. There is a lot of connection with the story of kids coming from the city and that is considered vital experience of my teaching. If I go to (names of suburbs) I will be teaching the subjects, it will be physics and math. There is no gray area. But teaching here is actually reawakening kids who may not consider engineering, may not consider math as part of their preparation for life.

RB: Do you think if you taught a different subject things would be different? Because there’s kind of a scarcity of underprivileged people in the maths and sciences when you get to a certain level?

CAMERON: It’s still advocacy, it’s still reawakening their intellect, it’s just that you have to tap into it. I am narrowing it down because my interaction is usually math and science.

RB: In the factors you listed, do you think these things are learned in the education program for teachers or learned elsewhere?

CAMERON: You mean the quality of good teaching?

RB: Yeah in an urban setting, because that is what the focus of this study is. For you is this something you learned in your teacher prep programs?

CAMERON: For awareness, I think yeah, in terms of studying urban issues, would help.

Especially if the person is competent in their field of study whether its math, physics, or

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chemistry, but they’re not aware of the group of students they work with. The education degrees will help in that regard because you are more than a subject teacher, you are a person that is going to communicate with different groups, dynamics, and backgrounds. It does help but there are those people that dwell on those issues and don’t become independent enough to use those backgrounds to venture into their own teaching and learning.

RB: So they think those are like the Cliff Notes and then they don’t do their own kind of in depth…

CAMERON: Yeah it’s kind of a springboard, it gives you, this is an urban setting. But you are going to live that life every day, and what you do every day in your action has a whole lot of impact than the masters degree you get in college.

RB: Are there any other factors we haven’t mention that contribute to best practices in teaching?

CAMERON: You have to like kids, bottom line. Even if they make you mad, that’s part of your life. If a machine breaks you know, would an engineer say I would not like this job. They would go back read, think and design that machine. Working with kids is the same thing, you have to like what you are doing, you have to really be, not for the money, or in America not for the prestige, you have to like kids and that interaction. And that interaction might not be all the time positive. It’s life.

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Source: New York State Education Department’s Information and Reporting Services http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/irts/statistics/public/table4.html