[The Legacy of Socrates][Socratic Dialogue on Success]
blatantly showing distrust in one another under the guise of health precaution. I spend a lot of time wondering how one can truly be successful in this kind of economy. Or even what success means at all. Do you spend time thinking about this or am I the only one that thinks too much about what successful systems are or what one will look like after this disruption? Do you have a moment to chat about this?
Success
Sneha: Certainly, sister. It’s something that I think I have a pretty good answer on since I am directly involved in making policy decisions. I’m confident that we’ll be successful as a community in overcoming this virus as long as we all work together. It shouldn’t be a problem at all once we have guidelines in place on how to best proceed to make our economy a success again.
Written by Shwetha Jayaraj
Shwetha: owner of bedroom & chief inquirer of dialogue Sneha: younger sister sibling by 1 year Siddharth: youngest brother sibling of 12 years of age Scene: Gathered around in a bedroom during the coronavirus quarantine, three siblings are willing to talk about anything.
Shwetha: Well it seems like no one has really made these guidelines and each sector is drawing up different guidelines on how to navigate successfully in the future. So I ask again, what does success really mean?
Shwetha: Well I say with everything that is going on, we all seem to have different meanings on what success means don’t you think? The current events right now is that it is a pandemic and that means we are going to have to rethink a whole different method of the way we as a society have to think about the way things mean and perhaps redefine a lot of the events happening in the world. For instance, how do we make government work to the best of its capability, how are families going to work together to be the best of its capability , how do we educate to the best of our capability. Outside we see people coming together to support the end of this pandemic but also we see people
Sneha: To be sure, this is definitely a conversation that everyone is having. Being of a nurturing quality myself I think before everything else, we need to make sure that the children are having playtime that are of quality going forward. Those in the
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UK are prioritizing their children already1. Before anything we should make sure that these children are getting back their playtime and the time that is lost is provided for them.
see this across the spectrum actually2. However, one thing I see that is changing through generations is that more and more people simply want a peace of mind as more people are meditating and understand that mental health takes priority. In fact, I see peace of mind as my personal success goal too. This question of what success means is an important one since a lot of people right now are defining what success and happiness means to them since everyone is going at their own pace now. We’re not all seeing each other anymore to compare what success means to one another and how we act in order to get there. And perhaps that is a good thing since all of us have such different definitions of success due to our different standards. Now, finally, we get to take a break from all of that comparison and define how we feel successful by our own perspectives being inside our homes all day. I think it’s great.
Shwetha: Awesome, so it seems like you already have an open mind about how things should change going forward. Perhaps, that even begs the question of how states and communities will be more successful going forward. Taking the socratic stance of someone that knows nothing at all on what conventional success means, what do you think is the meaning of success? Sneha: Well, that is a very big question. I think success really means just peace of mind. Shwetha: And how is that? Sneha: Well, a lot of people in America, here in New England especially, we have this idea of success being money, about hard work, about being in the top position. We have “hustle” culture in order to be successful and we see the need to move very fast and live this fast life in order to climb up the ladder of riches, status, and power quickly. Yet, we see these same people suffering from depression, suffering from anxiety. We
Shwetha: Interesting, but by having a definition of success there is an inherent need to know what failure is, right? How will we not know what failure is to us without knowing how others view failure as well? Sneha: Well does that even matter? Does it really matter what they think? It causes a lot of stress and anxiety to fret over things like success and failure to be honest, and their views of what failure is not even absolute either, it's just relative to the community anyways. In fact, I’ll give you an example:
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"The problem with our schools? There's not enough playtime ...." 17 May. 2018, https://www.unilever.com/news/news-and-features/Feature-article/2018/t he-problem-with-our-schools-not-enough-playtime.html. Accessed 17 May. 2020.
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"Hustle Culture Is Actually Terrible for Our Mental Health." 16 May. 2019, https://thriveglobal.com/stories/hustle-culture-constant-work-always-on-m ental-health-tips/. Accessed 17 May. 2020. 2
[The Legacy of Socrates][Socratic Dialogue on Success]
There was a question that was asked in my economics class on the first day of school asked by the professor to close your eyes and to choose one when he asked if it would be better to save one human or 1,0003 monkeys. In this class I opened my eyes to find that I was the only person to raise my hand for the lives of one thousand monkeys though everyone else raised their hands for the human. If anything, this showed that everyone's reasoning is different since they reasoned that one human can achieve more for our society than the 1000 monkeys. I reasoned entirely differently that you still killing the lives and deaths of 1,000 monkeys is clearly much worse than 1 human ultimately. We are just selfish this way though so maybe I shouldn’t be too surprised but I was still a bit shocked at the disparity in the response. However, the same question was proposed that very day in my psychology class. It’s interesting how very different our psyches are and it could be that certain kinds of people go into economics and certain kinds of people go into psychology. I say this because when that same question was asked, in that same class much more people chose the 1,000 monkeys over the life of 1 human to be the majority answer. In the study of economics, we are always taught that we have to maximize our utility and that we have limited resources and that we are in constant competition. However, I choose to defy this standpoint and have a personal vision of success as love as that is not limited, imaginations are not limited, and I refuse to
subscribe to this narrative. I think this is what an understanding of the study of psychology leads us to knowing as well. Since I double-majored in both psychology and economics I think I can say this quite confidently. But then the follow-up question in my economics was asked to me like: “Well what if that was your mom. Do you think that matters in the grand scheme of things or would that change your response?” And obviously that depends. The whole question of what’s bad or what’s good, we are the ones that create those definitions at the end of the day. Shwetha: Certainly agreed. But doesn’t it make you wonder: why do you think there is such a vastly different response between these two groups? Sneha: Well it could be a bunch of different factors. Well there’s this narrative that we have to protect ourselves rather than the people around us. But, there have been multiple studies showing that .. Well actually let me backup. The demographics of people taking the economics and psychology class from the example I talked about before are vastly different from each other. The psychology class had more women and minorities in the room whereas the economics class had primarily white men.
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"The trolley dilemma: would you kill one person to save five?." 2 Jun. 2016, https://theconversation.com/the-trolley-dilemma-would-you-kill-one-perso n-to-save-five-57111. Accessed 17 May. 2020. 3
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I did read a study that white people feel less empathy for black people and just have less empathy4 overall except for their own white race. I believe this. I see it. Even growing up, the things that people asked me growing up in a primarily white neighborhood, I was very shocked at the things that people asked me of my culture. Now, neighborhoods are becoming more brown as we can see even in our own neighborhood. However when growing up, I was so shocked at how rude others treated me for being Indian. It really appalled how rude these people were talking to me and questioning. In fact, I remember in middle school these group of white boys would consistently ask me: “What world are you from?”
to make remarks & decisions that will continue to affect black and brown people. Shwetha: Ugh, that really is terrible. And it’s fantastic you were able to overcome that and now believe yourself to have success. So how do you believe you are now successful? Sneha: Well, I don’t have any mental health issues for one, I am not insecure anymore or depressed or anxious like so many people around me are. I know there are ups and downs that I’ll feel in life but I am for the most part pretty stable. Shwetha: And what has caused you to feel this kind of stable? Surely, there have been moments where you have felt unstable like before in that childhood example of bullying?
Maybe I was ignorant in thinking that they were just asking instead of trying to poke fun but really it was a form of bullying and moreover it was an action of consistently othering5 me. This othering, with more people being on the side of the majority demographic, this could go on to later make people feel inherently unsuccessful. Now, however, I know that I am successful and that is not the case at all. However going back to the original example, people that don’t unlearn this kind of thinking will later go on to hold powerful positions and continue
Sneha: Well you know that time when I couldn’t use my legs for eight months after I fell on ice, that was an unstable time. I was feeling more down during that time but that ended and I came back stronger than ever. Shwetha: So would you say unsuccessful times could be times where people metaphorically may not have use of their legs and cannot become as successful as others?
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"Racial empathy gap: People don't perceive pain in other races.." 27 Jun. 2013, https://slate.com/technology/2013/06/racial-empathy-gap-people-dont-per ceive-pain-in-other-races.html. Accessed 12 May. 2020. 5 "Us vs them: the sinister techniques of 'Othering' – and how to ...." 8 Nov. 2017, https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/nov/08/us-vs-them-the-sinis ter-techniques-of-othering-and-how-to-avoid-them. Accessed 17 May. 2020.
Sneha: Well, I suppose. Also knowing that my situation wasn’t going to be permanent also gave me more hope too. But I see what you’re getting at, if I had lost the use of my legs I would find it hard to achieve success compared to my leg-having peers. The ability to walk definitely gets you far. 4
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But I’m also successful not in the mental and physical way but I also have education on my side. I’m a huge believer in that having education leads to having more success as well. During that time, I was still successful since I got good grades still that semester. I think seeing that there are other ways to be successful is also important, don’t you?
have my own definition of success in my own words and own thoughts. Shwetha: Well out of your own thoughts, what would you say the true definition of success is? Adding to try your best to not deem an event as a success from earlier learned understandings of what success means in other conditions, environments, and time periods.
Shwetha: Right, but do you see how seeing education as a success paradigm has also been ingrained as characteristic as well. Not only is having money, riches, fame, and power the qualities of success due to our viewing those in power possessing these qualities but we have consistently seen educated people being successful as well. We see that those holding bachelor's and master’s degrees do get better jobs than those without and in fact, we still study the “great” Greek philosophers such as Socrates, Plato, & Aristotle for their famed wisdom. We have been passed down the definition of what success is over thousands of years through our learned understanding of what success is. But those factors are only commonalities we are noticing which leads to successful lives. Those are just patterns we acknowledge in people that help us characterize figures in their distinguished success. But if we no longer had those characteristics such as money, education, fame, physical characteristics to go by, what would success really mean?
Sneha: Well I can only remark on what I deem as successful actions that I see currently then. There’s certainly going to be a new normal after this pandemic has subsided anyways. This means that yes, as people work together, what success means will change yet again. I do hope everyone works together. [List many examples here] So hopefully this spirit of giving continues even after the COVID-19 pandemic is over. We are finally seeing that this helpful communal culture of making sure that everyone is good is proven to work. Hopefully we can see this continue. Shwetha: Interesting, it nearly begs the question that with this pandemic the world may be turning better. Is harder failure needed to lead to a better definition of success. Will success happen when we see the most dire of failures, death? Sneha: Hm interesting. It could be that in order to live we need to give as you say. Rather than take.
Sneha: I mean, success means something completely different depending on where you come, who you are. Well hm, now I
Shwetha: Yes, assuming this nature of comparison is not going to stop, how do you think then that some countries would be 5
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more or less “successful” than others in valuing the avoidance of the ultimate failure, that is, death?
Shwetha: Well you say health. We do see demographics that are more susceptible to COVID-19 and those that aren’t. Are you implying then that those that are more healthy are more successful?
Sneha: Others are clearly going to be successful when states heal their people and have less infected citizens obviously to prevent death. In fact, we heard a Texas governor say that there are more important things than living6. So clearly, there’s a disconnect there.
Sneha: No. That is not what I am implying at all. When we see school shooters, they are primarily white men8. Instead of talking about guns or white supremacy, they talk about mental health. So there’s much deeper systematic issues here than just mental health or the problem of health. When you are taught from an early age that you are the best or where you are taught that one skin color is better than another, those cultural and systemic issues clearly will affect mental health. Growing up humble, having a holistic and representative education system, will lead to better development. So,I think there’s something mentally wrong with white people.
Shwetha: Yes, we recently saw the live testimony of health professionals in front of the senate. One of the things that was stated was that there would simply not be enough money to provide to every person hurt7 by this pandemic. Sneha: Yet we do have money for the military. Shwetha: Right, so is success having a better prioritization in life components? Sneha: Well yes, we are having huge issues in not only this epidemic but also in mental health. We are not facing any war right now to spend all this money on the military so we do need to re-allocate that budget to doing what matters.
Shwetha. Well that’s certainly a bold statement. But in some ways I see your point as going into the downtown areas of black and brown communities is much more depressing whereas going to a white neighborhood gives another issue as well. Both sides are mentally ill for different reasons. So those unhealthy thoughts and actions seem to be based on the system
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"There are more important things than living - Business Insider." 21 Apr. 2020, https://www.businessinsider.com/texas-lt-gov-dan-patrick-there-are-more-i mportant-things-than-living-2020-4. Accessed 17 May. 2020. 7 "Dr. Anthony Fauci & CDC Director Senate Testimony ... - Rev." 12 May. 2020, https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/dr-anthony-fauci-cdc-director-senate -testimony-transcript-may-12. Accessed 17 May. 2020.
Sneha: Yeah, it was created by our colonizers. 8
"Who Are Mass Shooters? Mass Shooter Demographics ...." 31 May. 2019, https://centerforinquiry.org/blog/who-are-mass-shooters-mass-shooter-de mographics-part-2/. Accessed 17 May. 2020. 6
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of resources. We cannot depend on a higher body to dictate what is success and not success. As you stated earlier, with the major branches giving more money to rich CEO’s and people that align with their own interest. This is a huge problem that is very systematic and very institutional and these problems are constantly occuring with the federal government. Indeed, it is up to local governments to create change, take matters into their own hands to provide the resources for their community to be “successful”. But when you have such a large yet vastly vague goal of “success”.
Shwetha: Sneha: Well even that word healthy can be biased as everyone has a different definition of what standard of health is. Just like the term successful has a lot of definitions. Yet we love to categorize things as that’s healthy and that’s unhealthy, that is successful, and that is unsuccessful. Shwetha: Right, so success is really not binary. We know that there are different levels to this depending on the context. Yet people do love to have a definition to things or a codified or quantified indication of what success is. When we tell people that this will lead success and not success, what do you think of you as someone involved in local government and policy change, how would you go about redefining the ultimates of terms like health and success? If we are not depending on a case by case situation what can people ultimately turn to?
Sneha: Well it also then must mean having representation. It’s important to display what success looks like with different role models, single mothers, black and brown men and women being represented as well. Shwetha: So representation needs to be created perhaps through social media? Does that influence you in what success looks like?
Sneha: Well I guess just resources. Making sure that everyone has access to farmer’s markets. America has a huge surplus of food. Food is not a commodity, it’s a necessity. Not everyone has access to McDonald’s but rather just nutrition-rich basic foods that will nourish their community. Also education and more.
Sneha: This is the time for a new world order. Our parents haven’t seen a situation like this so yeah it should definitely be taken to social media to redefine success. Shwetha: Well then again, I have to ask what is success and what do you think a successful group looks like to you.
Shwetha: So rather by giving resources and growing, are you saying the process of raising successful communities the more important outline to define. Clearly, success is not agreed upon until everyone has equity, until everyone has the same amount
Sneha : I think it can come back to peace of mind and do what they love. 7
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And I don’t mean individualistically doing what they love, but really collectively doing what they love. Meaning they do what they love with the conscious awareness of the person next to you being helped out by pursuing this action as well. Let’s say this example, I have an opportunity to accept this new job or new promotion. However, I see that my neighbor is having a tough time and struggling a little bit. Do I want to accept this promotion and help my neighbor or do I want to accept this promotion and do nothing.
think it was Gandhi that said if we ever wanted to achieve real peace we should start with children9. [pan to my younger brother Siddharth, who has been patiently listening to us while he was playing on his laptop] Shwetha [taps Siddharth’s shoulder]: Let’s ask our brother, they say that youth What do you think success is? Siddharth: [hesitantly] Hmm, I think the normal meaning of success means accomplishing your goals, what you want to do, and achieving them.
At the end of the day, are you going to help out those around you to help them do what they love. At the end of the day, it’s not either/or, it should be an and. So, just a collective do what you love. And ya feel better when you help others out. In fact, the barter system was a great system.
Shwetha: That’s what you think of success right now? Siddharth: Yeah, well and probably making a profit and doing what you love.
Shwetha: Well in those kinds of worlds, wouldn’t there be a kind of hierarchy or categorization when there's a collective do what you love.
Shwetha: Interesting, with both of your definitions, success often meant profit. Leading me to assume that situations are not successful if you are not in profit or if you lost in a certain transaction.
Sneha: Well yes, that could happen. Shwetha: That happens every time.
Sneha: Well, it depends, it doesn’t have to be a capitalistic sort of profit. I don’t subscribe to that view of success.
Sneha [laughing]: yes, we do see this happening every single time. 9
"Quotes about Youth + Social Change – Freechild Institute." https://freechild.org/quotes-about-youth-changing-the-world/. Accessed 17 May. 2020.
Shwetha: Well on one hand there’s collective do what you love and barter system, let’s take it over to the younger generation. I 8
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Shwetha: No, no that’s not what I’m saying at all. In fact, success can really mean profit of any kind based on both of your definitions. In the broadest terms, success is when you win or profit in a situation be it either in monetary value, in love, fame, attention, physical health, mental health, intellect, and capabilities. Now, it would be nearly impossible to excel at everything correct? Simply due to the infinite amount of variances, categories, fields of expertise, character types, talents, environments, and genetics variances at play in the world. When you really look at it, only the common themes can be extracted from all these different situations to see what can be qualitatively and quantitatively valued as successful. In our past and our present, we have been competing for the quantity of large amounts of monetary symbols to translate to a certain value of success. But like you have said, when people have peace of mind indeed they are successful in their mental health. Like our brother has said, when people have accomplished & achieved their goals that is also another way to value their success. Previously, success meant the amount of material possessions and land you gained, the more you can provide for your clan, and this led to the paradigm that the more materials you have the more successful you are. This ultimately led to our capitalist economy of wanting to be free to make as much and gain as many resources as possible in order to have a lot of money which would equate to success.
However, as is often proven with people that have achieved a large amount of money, people are not more satisfied10 or at an achieved mental health state when they are richer than anyone else as there is always someone to compare to. So we have established that money doesn't buy happiness11 so clearly the amount of money you have is not an indicator of if you achieved success in your life or not. Thus, a deeper understanding of what success really is must be analyzed especially in this time of the world as, although people are certainly saving money by staying indoors and not going out to buy things as we normally had done, people still feel unhappy and depressed. More often than not, we hear the common sentiment of people feeling quite bored staying indoors. Sneha: Another thing we are realizing is that we definitely are global citizens. Now we can have a webinar with someone in Kazakhstan. I think this will eventually lead to hopefully, all of these borderlines will drop. We are all going through the same pandemic and maybe that’s something that we can go into further if we wish.
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"Why Aren't Rich People Happy With the Money ... - The Atlantic." 4 Dec. 2018, https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/12/rich-people-happy-m oney/577231/. Accessed 15 May. 2020. 11 "If I Were a Rich Man... - American Psychological." https://www.apa.org/research/action/rich. Accessed 15 May. 2020. 9
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Shwetha [laughing]: Maybe in another dialogue. Indeed, well we do have the right to privacy. And that is something that a lot of my hacktivist friends care deeply about as the world is getting more globalized and seen as a successful government to be in.
America has othered people. Would you say that there is an increased xenophobia regarding China here in America? Sneha: Oh certainly, and it is terrible to see. It’s very subliminal such as the recent murder hornets12 from Asia issue. But I think most are just trying to live day to day honestly. The regular joe is not keeping up with politics today. They're trying to see what the numbers are for coronavirus deaths right now. They are not exactly thinking of global politicians…
Sneha: Well, this goes back to public health. No one wants to be tracked but when it comes down to public health, this is important. Shwetha: Well yes, there are big companies like Apple that are using data from when iphone users open apple maps to track mobility trends during this covid crisis.
Shwetha: But of course. But do you not think this matters? Sneha: Yeah it matters but not really relevant here when there is a pandemic.
Sneha: Yes, I think this all boils down to trust. And that is the difference between India and America that hey we don’t want people to die. However here when we hear someone saying like that Texas governor there's more important things than living. Yes, there is going to be increased distrust in a nation like that rather than in India. There is this fear of Big Brother but we are already getting tracked. That’s a huge issue here because no one trusts each other.
Shwetha: What? That the world is not relevant when there is not more of a disease? Doesn’t that tie back into the whole idea of success? For peace? If our environments are not at peace, wouldn’t by your definition be important for you to stay updated? In fact, during this global epidemic isn’t the need to be more understanding of what is happening on a global scale more dire? But instead, we are seeing increased nationalism.
Shwetha: Well yes, of course. This is a country of diversity, made up on multiple different cultures. There is an entire culture of othering here which creates people to not trust people in the first place. While there is the same thing happening in different degrees everywhere, (Muslims in Modi India for example), it never amounts to the degree in which
But very true. Common people do see things day to day. But who do you think is the one representing America and makes
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"'Murder Hornets' in the U.S.: The Rush to Stop the Asian Giant ...." 2 May. 2020, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/02/us/asian-giant-hornet-washington.ht ml. Accessed 17 May. 2020. 10
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America’s decisions? Will this not affect our success as a nation in impacting our current pandemic.
the next day to hit the target. Success, we agree, is dynamic and fluid depending on the scenario, and it really does depend on having the resources or knowledge necessary to fulfill a system.
Sneha: Yes, definitely. Sneha: The world needs a lot of helping today. Often, people may think that success means a situation that one can directly benefit from. However, is it possible to benefit in seemingly small ways every day to feel like you are “successful” in many ways. Living is success. Breathing is success. All the large and small events and actions that your mind wants to achieve is the process of being successful. While you say peace of mind, how are we to be successful in times of conflict. We would need to somehow resolve and create that peace somehow. But instead, peace is a place where you can be both happy and sad and understand that it is a higher concept of knowing how a system works. Everyone can have that peace. It is an internal idea but can be displayed externally.
Shwetha: In fact, we saw recently that the United Nations had chosen to pool together $8 billion to create a global vaccine and for coronavirus research. However, the United States & Russia chose to decline participation13. Sneha: Yes, I retract what I said earlier. It really is important to keep a global perspective. In fact, I saw how different networks are creating bias here and it’s quite ridiculous how America attempts to create fake news here to pacify civilians or even to create panic against other countries. Shwetha: Right, and if we chose to adopt the lockdown methods done in Europe & India & China and how they have shown effective patterns of improvement against this pandemic, perhaps that would be important to note how our leaders could be successful in leading our nation. While peace of mind is important, true success seems to be in the knowledge of understanding how a system works and what can be done to improve this. And then actually doing this to effectively achieve a standard in the system. Success seems to be the process of trying and failing but still learning to improve
Shwetha: But, when you are told when you can’t have all these external types of human rights, it does disturb someone’s peace, does it not? Sneha: Yes, there is always some constant conflict in the world unfortunately that ended up being “unsuccessful” in its resolution.
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"US Conspicuously Absent As World Leaders Pledge $8 Billion ...." 5 May. 2020, https://khn.org/morning-breakout/u-s-conspicuously-absent-as-world-leade rs-pledge-8-billion-to-help-fund-vaccine-efforts/. Accessed 17 May. 2020.
Shwetha: So wouldn’t success be the lack of conflict? 11
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Sneha: Not at all, we earlier affirmed that everything changes.
I think something that one of our beloved and famed comedians of our time said it best when he said:
Shwetha: Yes, everything changes and that is the process of achieving success but we mentioned that true success is understanding the system and having the resources to improve the system to where you would like it to be.
“There’s this idea that people are trying to replace the ideas of good and bad with better or worse. And that is incorrect. You do have to keep your ethics intact because good and bad is a compass. It helps you find the way. A person that only does what is better or worse is the easiest type of person to control. They are a mouse in a maze that just finds the cheese. But the one who knows about good and bad will realize that he’s in a maze. -- Dave Chapelle14
Sneha: Yes I suppose similar to if you see a broken door in front of you, you would need to fix that door. Face it upfront and change it rather than do nothing. I suppose success is only when the door in front of you is fixed. Shwetha: RIght. We adjust to conflicts as they arrive. This would mean that we would inherently need high analytical skills. Would we not need to constantly analyze each situation to choose which situation would have the least and best outcome of death for yourself or your community or belongings.
Sneha: Wow. Interestingly enough, I have found that I don’t like the word successful too much at all. Shwetha: Yeah. Language is sometimes our biggest barrier as well as our biggest unifier to confront these problems.
Sneha: Well yeah, I would agree with that. A lot of people are not living. They are in fear and afraid since they do not know what comes next. Shwetha: Right, and perhaps all of this media is not working. Perhaps it is the ability to see clearly what is good and what is bad for the best survival of yourself, your belongings, and your community. Not the better or the worse but truly what is good and bad based on your interpretation to lead to success or peace of mind, or no conflict for your community and yourself. Indeed we all need to be healthy. If one person is sick, we are all sick.
14
"Walk Away From Money - Dave Chappelle - YouTube." 10
Mar. 2020, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TU7dGpvFEo. Accessed 17 May. 2020. 12
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