style in progress 1/2023 – Daniel Grieder & Yaël Meier

“WE DO NOT THINK IN WORKING HOURS, BUT IN ENERGY LEVELS”

New game, new rules? A creative industry like ours needs the brightest minds. Yet many companies struggle to attract up-and-coming talent born between 1995 and 2010. In short: Generation Z. How could fashion inspire young people in the future, be it as staff or as customers? To explore these questions, we invited ZEAM founder Yaël Meier and Hugo Boss CEO Daniel Grieder, two people who have had great success in attracting highly talented young people to their companies, for a chat. 22-year-old Yaël Meier even advocates for supervisory board members younger than 30. Read the reaction of 61-year-old Daniel Grieder below.

Moderation: Stephan Huber. Text: Petrina Engelke. Illustration: Tibo Eixenberger/Caroline Seidler. Photos: Interviewees

I would like to start the discussion with a quote by each of you. Daniel, in the summer of 2021 you said in an interview: “Being an attractive industry and employer for young people, for fresh talent, is a very important factor. If we aspire to be the best, we need to have the best staff.” What have you done to attract the best? And who are the best anyway?

Daniel Grieder: The way I see it, it now requires more effort than in the past to attract the best employees. I believe it starts with the company itself. It needs to be cool, sexy, and interesting in order to attract talent. To be frank, it was quite difficult for us to attract promising CVs 15 months ago. The company was not as relevant as it used to be, and thus not particularly appealing for new employees. This leads me to the first factor. I believe everyone needs to understand what a company stands for. That is exactly what we have defined very clearly by introducing a new strategy, a new brand orientation, a new campaign, and new products. Everything just clicked into place. We immediately attracted more attention, and our desirability as an employer increased many times over.

Yaël Meier: You are investing heavily in your B2C brand. Hugo Boss is more visible than ever among young people and that ultimately helps you in terms of personnel. Young talent is attracted by a strong brand. You offer that, which is why people are now eager to build a career at Hugo Boss.

Daniel Grieder: The crucial factor is to actually fulfil these expectations. We now have an entire catalogue dedicated to implementation, which always reminds me of you saying: “Why does one even need offices?” (laughs) We are investing several millions in this campus to make it absolutely cool, to create something that is more than a mere workplace. We want it to be a place where people really enjoy spending time. It is no longer sufficient to provide a simple office and a canteen from where you can pick up food. The whole thing needs to be staged. It needs to be an experiential world, which is precisely what we have come to expect from stores. Regardless of whether in stationary retail or e-commerce, the goal is to evoke emotions, offer an experience, and build a community. This is exactly what we are trying to implement in the workplace, as it resonates with the talent we strive to attract. They realise that things happen here, even during the week. You can meet people here without having to visit a bar.

This raises the question of working hours.

Daniel Grieder: (to Yaël) You argue that we do not need working hours. I have a slightly different opinion. Some people prefer clear instructions and require guidance. A company like ours employs people in IT, sales, logistics, and product development. We have more than 2,500 employees at our headquarters alone, and more than 15,000 worldwide. That one format that allows everyone to work completely flexibly does not exist. Of course, we have implemented flexible working hours where possible, but warehouse employees, for example, need to be present for the start of their shifts. Needless to say, our working hours could become even more flexible, but we certainly approach the subject differently than Yaël.

Yaël Meier: The way you develop your campus as a place of experience is what an office of the future should look like. If you approach the subject with that kind of mindset, an office actually makes plenty of sense. However, the notion that employees arrive in the office, sit at their desk for eight hours, and then go home again is no longer valid. As for flexible working hours, every company must figure out the best solution individually. It is vital to remember that young talents desire maximum flexibility. Many employers find that challenging. At the end of the day, it is an issue of reinterpreting work. What does working time actually mean, for instance? We do not think in working hours, but in energy levels. What does this mean in practical terms?

Yaël Meier: It means that different kinds of work require different energy levels. Lecturing at a workshop is very different from working on my emails. That is why every employee can assess for themselves how much energy they have left for additional tasks. Admittedly, we are a small company, but despite this openness we still have a fairly good grasp of performance and efficiency levels. That is what matters to the company, after all. How many people do you currently employ?

Yaël Meier: Just shy of 30. The question of finding the best employees not only applies to every company size, but also to all levels within the company. Every department needs excellent people who are up for the job and do it really well. Who do you consider to be the best, and how do you identify them?

Daniel Grieder: We just gathered our high potentials from around the globe in Norway and assigned them a task which they had to complete together in three days. One has to lead the group, motivate them, and prepare food. It is not at all about titles or credentials, but about the individual and their skills. I am not particularly interested in a person’s grades or the schools they attended. Self-initiative, courage, and the will to take responsibility are crucial, both for oneself and for others. Not everyone can offer survival training in Norway. What role do education and training play as a career foundation in your eyes, Yaël?

Yaël Meier: The real question is how not to lose potential at this point. Many companies, especially large ones, use algorithms in their application process. Yet these algorithms are designed to do one thing above all else: weed out seemingly unsuitable applicants quickly. No university degree? No need to look at that application. A gap in the CV? Not worth looking at. Not the best grades? Not worth looking at. This results in a great deal of untapped potential, as other promising avenues, such as launching one’s own fashion magazine on TikTok, are ignored.

Let me make one thing clear, I should not have been allowed anywhere near a university with my grade point average. (laughs)

Daniel Grieder: Where do you think I would have ended up? At this point, the Yaël quote I mentioned earlier fits perfectly: “I am 22 years old and have no degree. Yet I teach at one of the best business universities in the world. The Metaverse is so new that I, despite my age, am considered one of the leading experts on the subject. In a world that spins so fast, the importance of age in terms of experience decreases continuously.” With this in mind, how does your agency approach applicant screening?

Yaël Meier: We receive a fair number of applications. The most important skill we look for in our employees is leadership ability. I am not referring to leadership experience or a capability to lead others as their superiors, but to the ability of leading yourself. In a remote culture and rapidly evolving work environment, we need people who learn quickly and show great drive. We identify this quality in projects that have already been implemented independently – from own fashion collections to the aforementioned fashion magazine on TikTok.

Generation Z is often accused of being strongly motivated by changed values and goals in life. To put it flippantly, they value freedom and flexibility higher than influence and money. Is that really the case, or is it a romanticised portrayal?

Yaël Meier: It is romanticised to some extent, just like the idea that Gen Z is only willing to work for fully climate-neutral companies. But: this generation knows it is in a position to make demands, because the current market is geared towards the labour force. You can pick and choose. At the same time, various studies show that Gen Z is extremely career-oriented. Its members attach more importance to prestige and salary in a job than Millennials, for whom work-life balance and self-fulfilment were the focus. According to our Gen Z study, in which we surveyed almost 4,500 people with LINK, this group defines meaningfulness much more strongly in terms of performance and success than previous generations. The trend is now shifting back to these classic career goals. From a company’s point of view, these are highly motivated people who make demands.

Where is there a bone of contention between Gen Z and employers?

Yaël Meier: It is worth taking a closer look at their demands. For example, a representative study involving 1,000 Gen Z members told us that 72 percent believe they are not taken seriously in their jobs due to their age. That basically constitutes as age discrimination. We also asked what could improve the situation. In essence, the answers amounted to: “I would like to take on more responsibility. I would like to be able to contribute my ideas. I would like to be heard.” Three things that are fascinating from an employer’s point of view. These are people who want to get involved, who want to take on responsibility. Yet they are prevented from doing so by the structures that have shaped our working lives for decades. We are required to work our way up in a company until we are allowed to take on responsibility and contribute. Gen Z demands that at a young age, and that is surely the best thing a company can wish for: people eager to get things done.

Daniel Grieder: There is a problem at management level, too. Yaël and I have discussed this issue before. She pointed out that the average age on supervisory boards is 60+. She asked why those boards do not include young people if this target group is so crucial to companies. I agreed that it is a problem worth looking at. There are, of course, very experienced supervisory board members. And this experience and knowledge is equally essential. Yet the exchange with personalities like Yaël also matters. Let me give a concrete example. We are convinced that the focus lies on the consumer. It is all about the consumer! That means we need to involve people who actually understand Gen Z.

Gen Z on management boards, supervisory boards… will this turn into the next quota discussion?

Yaël Meier: Honestly, I do not think that will be necessary. Companies will, quite simply, be much more successful once they involve young people, including their skills and knowledge, at management level. As soon as one well-known company leads the way, others will follow.

Daniel Grieder: I think it is currently somewhat easier to access this knowledge externally, for example through Yaël’s agency.

We have talked extensively about how to attract young talent to a company, but then the next challenge is to retain them.

Daniel Grieder: If you give people responsibility, then working automatically becomes more fun. Many employees are ready for this responsibility. Here at Hugo Boss, we have committed to values that I have been advocating time and again since I took this job. I received an initial analysis from HR this morning, and there are two aspects we still need to work on: trust and control. If I take my staff seriously, then I trust them. This is a highly significant contributor to the feelgood factor within a company. You do not have to control everything employees do. Trust is one of our core values. If I cannot trust someone, then they should not work here in the first place. Nevertheless, large companies maintain a department literally called controlling. That gives the wrong impression. It should really be called supporting. (laughs)

Wording can be really important at times. Yet there has to be some instrument of control, has there not?

Yaël Meier: We do not have such a department. We rely on one hundred percent trust, with great success. We are only a small enterprise, but large companies always have small departments with even smaller teams. I believe that you can delegate a great deal of responsibility to each other within such teams. This is where a cultural change comes into play. While it used to be normal that you had to prove yourself before you were given responsibility, young talents now want to be given responsibility to prove themselves. That constitutes a 180-degree turn.

Allow me a brief interlude. What is the average age of your employees?

Yaël Meier: The average age is approximately 21.

Daniel Grieder: Wait, what? 21? (laughs) Yaël Meier: The oldest is 26. Our business model requires us to continually become younger, meaning we have to recruit ever-younger people. However, one subconsciously tends to hire people who are similar to oneself. That means I would instinctively rather hire someone who is also 22 than a young woman of 18. But that would be detrimental to the company. Hearing you, as a 22-year-old, talking about bringing in younger people sounds somewhat confusing. When you think about it, though, it does make sense, because things can change so quickly: TikTok, Discord, Metaverse. Are there any current media or socio-cultural phenomena that only young people truly understand? Is Gen Z the only gateway into the Metaverse for companies?

Yaël Meier: Clayton Christensen argued in his Technology Disruption Theory that the next big thing often seems like a toy at first. This makes it incredibly difficult for companies to discern innovations, because they do not take them seriously. But who plays with toys? Exactly, young people do! Regarding the Metaverse, companies do not have to be where users do not go. However, you still need to understand the Metaverse or, more precisely, what it could evolve into. You need to know what role your company could play there at some point. This means now is the time to start exploring that topic through research and experimenting. It makes no sense, however, to launch an NFT simply for the sake of it. And yes, new technologies are often embraced by young people.

Daniel Grieder: Naturally, this is an important topic for us. Yet it is not necessarily one which requires us to act immediately on a large scale. We have taken initial steps in this area, but we are also waiting to see what the next entry point might be. I will proceed to invest more when I have identified where exactly the best point is for us to generate business. That being said, I am convinced that the Metaverse will be an additional sales channel for us in the future. For example, we are collaborating with the company Imaginary Ones. They are an extremely exciting partner for concepts in the phygital future. We quite deliberately chose a partner from Asia for this topic. There, they have fast-forward technology and know-how. And their consumers are already very advanced in this area.

Yaël Meier: Gaming, for example, is a powerful business sector with huge potential for all companies. Popular games like Roblox, Minecraft, and Fortnite boast more than 300 million active users and are played billions of hours every month. Fortnite generated in excess of 5 billion US Dollars in revenue in 2021, a large part of which was generated by skins, so digital clothing for avatars. In contrast, if you look at the two most relevant Metaverse offerings at the moment, namely Sandbox and Decentraland, they each have 1,000 active users.

Yet social media also evolved very rapidly all of a sudden. And many companies would rather not miss the boat this time. How long do you think it will take for the buzzword Metaverse to become the billion US Dollar business that so many expect it to be?

Yaël Meier: I expect it to happen when we have a proper interface for it. My money is on glasses. They will make the Metaverse suitable for everyday use and accessible to everyone. If I were to hazard a prediction, that will happen in the next five to ten years.

Daniel Grieder: It will take that long? That surprises me a little.

Yaël Meier: Only then will we really have arrived in the Metaverse, yes. That by no means rules out further development between now and then – quite the opposite. Every experiment is important. Nike, for example, has acquired RTFKT, who are already generating considerable sales in the Metaverse. But the Metaverse in the true sense does not yet exist. I imagine it will only truly emerge when the physical and digital worlds merge entirely and see eye-to-eye. Maybe the digital world will even increase in importance a little. What we view on a tiny screen now, we will then view through glasses in our everyday lives. It will be the new norm. It will change the fabric of society, and certainly fashion as well.

Does that mean, from your point of view, there will be no iPhone 20?

Yaël Meier: No, probably not. We still need to talk about money. What role does income play for Gen Z in terms of career and life choices?

Daniel Grieder: Income is undoubtedly an important factor, but it is not the only determining one. What counts is the overall package. If the prospects are not promising, or if the job and environment are no fun, then money cannot replace that. Talking to young people, I experience somewhat of a different approach to life. I attach great importance to catering to as many individual needs as possible when creating a position – and to being flexible. After all, the realities of life change. Of course, that does not always work out. But it is rewarding for every company to be open to unusual models.

Yaël Meier: Money does play a role, but not necessarily the first fiddle. When we assist companies in improving with Gen Z in mind, we consider three pillars: cash, internal appreciation, and external appreciation. If one of these three pillars is off balance, you need to compensate with another. What we observed regarding cash: young people clearly care more about the prospect of a high future salary than an above-average starting salary, meaning a strong employer brand is hard currency.

At 19, Yaël Meier, now 22, founded consulting firm ZEAM in partnership with Jo Dietrich to help companies understand Gen Z. In the same year, Forbes magazine ranked the entrepreneur among the “30 Under 30” in the German-speaking market. In 2022, she published the bestseller “Gen Z für Entscheider:innen” (Gen Z for Decision Makers).

Daniel Grieder can look back on an extraordinary international career in the fashion industry. After a total of 23 years in various management positions at Tommy Hilfiger and PVH, most recently as CEO of Tommy Hilfiger Global and PVH Europe from 2014 to 2020, the then 59-year-old native of Switzerland joined Hugo Boss as CEO in June 2021.