AHEAD OF THE CURVE: RICHMOND’S DOWNTOWN DEVELOPMENT IS BOOMING
MINDING OVER WHAT MATTERS: LEVERAGE YOUR PUBLIC RELATIONS
HOST OF WCVE’S PERSPECTIVE, BARBARA BERLIN WITH OTHER KEY INDUSTRY PLAYERS DECIPHER MEDIA PROMOTIONS, SOCIAL NETWORKS & THE BLOGOSPHERE
VENTURE FORUM’S
TIP MANIA
GREATER RICHMOND COMPANIES TO WATCH
3 6 8
+
NEW IDEAS FOR A BRAND NEW YEAR SMART SALES STRATEGIES WAYS TO CUT COSTS
CONCEPTS FOR BETTER BUSINESS
2009
JEANNE BOISINEAU CASTING HANDCRAFT SERVICES PEDIATRIC CONNECTION INCORPORATED BRASS BEDS OF VIRGINIA COME TO ORDER PERSONAL ORGANIZING COBB TECHNOLOGIES
WORKMAGAZINE Career Life in the Greater Richmond Region
Table of Contents
COVER STORY PAGE 16 Minding Over What Matters Leverage Your Public Relations. Stay Relevant. Stay on Point. And Never Stay Still. In the highly competitive sport of public relations there are only two teams: those who create content and those who create media. Regional firms discuss the latest strategies for achieving success with savvy PR.
PAGE 25
Greater Richmond’s Companies to Watch 2009 With uncanny accuracy in previous years, Venture Forum has selected those innovative companies with the most promise of success. Unlike other awards that are based on historical activities, Companies to Watch forecasts businesses deemed to have the potential to become national leaders and significant contributors to the area.
WORKMAGAZINE PROFILE PAGE 29 A Million Things That Have to be Done Dr. Linda Powell Pruitt serves as president of Leadership Metro Richmond, a position she assumed in 2007. She is the fourth LMR president in the organization’s 27 years.
PAGE 31
Leadership: Preparing Yourself to be a Leader Although leadership has been defined many ways, it is still an amorphous term that means different things to different people. Learning from good leaders and how to avoid those characteristics exhibited by the poor or toxic leaders.
PAGE 41
The Martin Agency The GEICO Caveman. FreeCreditReport.com jingles. “What Can Brown Do For You?” These pop culture hits have a few commonalities: they are memorable, they are recognized across America and they all grew out of ideas born at Richmond’s The Martin Agency.
+PAGE 42 MEDIAWORKS: Trending Mass Marketing Winter 2009
Vol. 5 / Issue3
From the Partnership ............................................3 ShopTalk ..............................................................4 Momentum ............................................................9 Innovators ..........................................................21 Leadership ........................................................31 Arts / Culture ....................................................32 Music / Food ......................................................35 Shopping ............................................................36 Sports ................................................................38 Movers & Shakers ..............................................39 Partnership News ................................................40 Partnership Investor Profile ................................41 MediaWorks ........................................................42 Travel & Leisure ................................................43 See & Do ............................................................44
ShopTalk PAGE 4 Filtrona Acquires Michigan Foam Product Maker German Automotive Supplier $5 Million Production Plant Creates 50+ New Jobs in Chesterfield County Smart Investments: Virginia Schools Ranked Among 100 Best Values Virginia Earns A+ for Academics VCU Medical Center One of Top 100 Hospitals for Cardiovascular Care Afton Chemical Corp. Richmond’s Research and Development Facility to Expand Capital One to Buy Chevy Chase Bank Wunderlich Securities Inc. Acquires Anderson & Strudwick Inc. Sabra Will Create 260 Jobs in 2010 Bass Pro in Hanover County JetBlue Begins Nonstop Service to Orlando, Florida RIC’s $800 Million Economic Impact Reynolds Crossing Opens in Henrico County White Oak Village to Add Hyatt Place Business First: Tips and Wishes for a Prosperous New Year Six Ways to Cut Costs
www.workmagazine.biz
WORKMAGAZINE 1
WINTER2009 business innovation / career strategy / creative living MOMENTUM CONCEPTS • TRENDS • TRAILBLAZERS Bringing Up Baby (and Business)
PAGE 9
For working women across the nation, a new baby no longer means exiting the workplace.
Learning By Doing
www.workmagazine.biz
CREATIVE WORK SPACE VENTURE RICHMOND
SPECIAL SECTION AFTER PAGE 30 RICHMOND’S DOWNTOWN DEVELOPMENT UPDATE 2009
Legal Brief
PAGE 11 PAGE 11
Network much? Or network too much?
WebChatter
PAGE 12
Amuse thyself.
For Your Desk
PAGE 13
When it comes to internet radio—I am stymied with indecision. Or perhaps I’m hopelessly in a rut. I haven’t decided yet.
Trade Secrets: Text & Tech
PAGE 13
Job Search Bloopers by Laura DeCarlo and Susan Guarneri ALSO: I have antivirus installed, but I’m still getting infected.
Career, Take Two
PAGE 14
Think you’re too old for a new career? Think again.
Strategic Alliances vs Cold Calls Inside contemporary salesmanship
Innovators PAGE
Advertise in WORKMAGAZINE Contact: Sales
804-355-1035 Dave@palaribooks.com The Greater Richmond Partnership Inc. is a not-for-profit economic development team representing the City of Richmond and the counties of Chesterfield, Hanover and Henrico. The Partnership’s office is located at 901 E. Byrd St., Suite 801 Richmond, VA 23219-4070 phone 804-643-3227 or toll-free at 1-800-229-6332 fax 804-343-7167
21
Jeanne Boisineau Casting HandCraft Services Pediatric Connection Incorporated Brass Beds of Virginia Come to Order Personal Organizing Cobb Technologies 2 WORKMAGAZINE
PAGE 15
Ted Randler Publisher/Senior Editor
David Smitherman
Senior Writers Christina Couch Donna C. Gregory Department Editors Devorah Ben-David Jan Daniel Shannon O’Neill Paul Spicer
How Other People’s Blogs Can Land You in Court
Marketing Maven
Publisher/Executive Editor
VP of Marketing/Advertising Dave Perry Managing Editor Rebecca Jones
PAGE 10
The coaching industry has capitalized on the demand for greater job satisfaction.
WORKMAGAZINE
Palari Publishing LLP was established in 1998 in Richmond, Virginia. Palari is a forward-thinking, independent, royaltybased publisher committed to producing innovative periodicals, fiction and nonfiction books. Through our hardcover and trade paperback originals, Palari provides authoritative, well-written nonfiction that addresses topical consumer needs and fiction with an emphasis on intelligence and quality. www.palaribooks.com www.workmagazine.biz
Contributing Writers Dana Callahan Gina Cavallo Collins Mike Fonseca Chris Gatewood Mark Matthews Julie McGuire Joan Tupponce Mike Ward Jennifer Yeager Photography Griffin Davis Stephanie Garr Chris Owens Interns Atosa Dabney Rachel Gregory
WORKMAGAZINE: Career Life in the Greater Richmond Region is a quarterly publication owned and operated by Palari Publishing LLP (The Work Factory, 1113 West Main Street, Richmond, VA, 23220 Toll-free: 866-570-6724) in association with the Greater Richmond Partnership Inc. All rights reserved. Reproduction in whole or in part of any text, photograph or illustration without written permission from the publisher is prohibited. General comments, story suggestions and letters to the editor for publication consideration should be directed to Ted Randler at ted@theworkfactory.com.
WORKMAGAZINE is published in the months of JULY, OCTOBER, JANUARY & APRIL 2009 Winter
W
Everybody Loves Pop Music
I
You’re going through your day and you’ve got that tune stuck in your head. It can be any song, a favorite chorus or maybe it was used in the soundtrack of a film. Surprisingly, sometimes it’s a song that you actually don’t like. But it’s there, wafting between your thoughts and interactions with others. As consumers of media, we are highly susceptible to smartly-packaged experiences, and pop songs are the epitome of products created to be memorable and meaningful to the masses. Think about it. They are targeted demographically, designed for quick emotional assessment and engineered to tantalize whether through a musical hook or clever catchphrase that has some type of relevant meaning.
N
In this issue we take a look at the current state of public relations and note how much successful PR shares similar characteristics to the well-designed media nugget of a pop song. Like top-forty hits, smart public relations entails knowing your audience—designing your message to be readily assessable and relevant.
I E L
The same is true for the savvy execution of a PR strategy. It’s not enough to simply write a press release, blast it to media outlets and then expect to receive interest. We discovered competition for media portals is as fierce as, well, pop music hits. You must target your ongoing efforts to the appropriate media channels and also try to create a viral buzz, such that other media picks up the message. This means a strategy of tapping into conventional event marketing, print and television outlets as well as creating a presence on the web through social networks, blogs and portals.
F
But here’s the interesting part, pop songs are designed for repetition and viral promotion. Without these two elements, pop songs wouldn’t be able to stick in your head. The media experience requires that you hear the song several times so it becomes familiar. And, as usually happens, if you like the song you will share the experience with another friend or associate—thus the growth of a pop singer’s fan-base.
G
Whether you are comfortable with media attention or not, chances are, your competition is developing all available means to communicate their story to promote their brand.
Greg Wingfield President, CEO Greater Richmond Partnership Inc.
Whether you are comfortable with media attention or not, chances are, your competition is developing all available means to communicate their story and promote their brand. Who and how become the key. For, as all things media these days, the PR model has evolved into a highly-fragmented sphere of specialized outlets, delivery devices and social networks that didn’t exist five years ago.
Winter 2009
www.workmagazine.biz
D
Fortunately, just as there are many new ways to promote your message, creative ideas for connecting your brand to relevant consumers are being developed by the bevy of talent in Greater Richmond. From capitalizing on new media to smart maneuvering of traditional publicity venues, the high caliber of PR strategy created in the region is impressive and readily accessible to most companies that need a clever campaign.
WORKMAGAZINE 3
Filtrona Acquires Michigan Foam Product Maker Richmond-based Filtrona has agreed to acquire the business and assets of St. Charles, Mich.-based Lendell Manufacturing, Inc., a developer and manufacturer of specialized hydrophilic foam products. Filtrona’s bonded fiber components division will be renamed and launched as Filtrona Porous Technologies, comprised of both Filtrona Fibertec and Lendell. Filtrona Porous Technologies, headquartered in Richmond, will operate as a developer and manufacturer of liquid handling and other specialty, porous components for use in consumer and professional end-use devices. “The addition of Lendell will conform well with Filtrona’s strategy of becoming the premier global supplier of specialty solutions and components to consumer and professional product applications,” said Mark Harper, Filtrona’s chief executive of the $35 million deal. Lendell specializes in products for medical wound care, agricultural, industrial and consumer uses.
Lendell specializes in products for medical wound care, agricultural, industrial and consumer uses.
Smart Investments: Virginia Schools Ranked Among 100 Best Values Kiplinger's Personal Finance Magazine’s December issue listed six Virginia schools among the 100 best values in public colleges. Schools making the lists combine“outstanding economic value with top-notch education,” according to Kiplinger. The College of William and Mary is ranked fifth among public schools. The top 100 list include Virginia Tech (15th), the University of Mary Washington (23rd), James Madison University (28th) and George Mason University (46th).The University of Richmond was also cited as 22nd among best bargains in private schools.
4 WORKMAGAZINE
German Automotive Supplier $5 Million Production Plant Creates 50+ New Jobs in Chesterfield County
Ept automotive has leased 46,300 square feet of manufacturing space in River’s Bend in Chesterfield County for a new facility to produce electrical connectors for the automotive industry. The facility, involving an estimated $5 million in investment, opened in October and is expected to create more than 50 jobs during the next three years. Ept (Electronic Precision Technology) automotive is a subsidiary of ept GmbH & KG, Peiting, Germany, located about 60 miles southwest of Munich. A global supplier to the automotive industry for integrated solutions for electrical connection technology, the firm has more than 700 employees. Willy Rau, president of ept america, was selected in February to establish the new production facility. Thomas Guglhör, president of ept automotive, said “We are very excited about our new production facility to be established in Chesterfield County. Virginia is perfectly located as a bridge between our parent company in Germany and our many automotive customers in North America. The support we received from state, regional and local economic development officials goes back several years and helped make our decision a confident one.” Mr. Rau added, “The Greater Richmond area offers a pool of experienced, skilled workers and managers that will contribute quickly to our mission. Having operated another business in the area for many years, I have great respect for Virginia’s business climate and the productivity of the local workforce.”
www.workmagazine.biz
Virginia Earns A+ for Academics The American Federation of Teachers’ report, which examine states’ academic standards as required by the federal No Child Left Behind law, gave Virginia a perfect score. The commonwealth was the only state to earn an A+. States’ standards are evaluated for clarity, specificity and content. Virginia met 100 percent of the criteria for its Standards of Learning in English, math, science and history at all grade levels and in all subject areas.
VCU Medical Center One of Top 100 Hospitals for Cardiovascular Care The Virginia Commonwealth University Medical Center has been identified as one of the top 100 U.S. hospitals that set the nation’s benchmarks for cardiovascular care, according to a Thomson Reuters study. It is one of only two Virginia hospitals named in the study. The annual study, the 2008 Thomson Reuters 100 Top Hospitals: Cardiovascular Benchmarks for Success, examined the performance of nearly 1,000 hospitals by analyzing clinical outcomes for patients diagnosed with heart failure and heart attacks and for those who received coronary bypass surgery and angioplasties. “This recognition reaffirms our position as a national leader in advanced cardiac care,” said Eugene P. Trani, VCU president and president and chair of the VCU Health System, who underwent quintuple bypass surgery at the VCU Medical Center this past summer.
2009 Winter
Afton Chemical Corp. Richmond’s Research and Development Facility to Expand When completed, the new two-story building will add approximately 30,600 sq ft to the existing 250,000 sq ft research center. The new addition will provide office, laboratory and mechanical test spaces in order to meet the needs of OEMs and customers in the driveline market. Construction on the new building is expected to be complete by the third quarter of 2009. Afton Chemical Corporation is a wholly owned subsidiary of NewMarket
Corporation. Afton Chemical develops and manufactures petroleum additives that heighten the effectiveness of lubricating oils and fuels to enhance their performance in machinery, vehicles and other equipment. Afton’s chemical technology helps fuels burn cleaner, engines run smoother and machines last longer in custom-formulated chemical blends to market-general additive components.
Capital One to Buy Chevy Chase Bank Capital One Financial Corp. announced in December its plans to buy Chevy Chase Bank, a privately owned company that would put the credit-card giant into Virginia's banking business with branches as far south as Charlottesville and Fredericksburg. Currently, the company's state banking presence is limited
to branches at its corporate headquarters in McLean and operations center in Goochland County. The $520 million deal would add the Washington region to a banking business with almost 1,000 branches in key markets, including New York, New Jersey, Louisiana and Texas.
Wunderlich Securities Inc. Acquires Anderson & Strudwick Inc. The Richmond-based brokerage and investment banking firm Anderson & Strudwick Inc. will add more than 130 employees to the Memphis-based Wunderlich. Anderson & Strudwick will operate as a Anderson division of Wunderlich. & Anderson & Strudwick Strudwick Inc. has offices in Richmond, Fredwill add ericksburg, Charlottesvile and more than Norfolk, Va.; Charlotte; Columbia and Charleston, 130 employees S.C.; Knoxville, Tenn.; and to the Bethlehem and Canonsburg, The acquisition will give Memphis- Pa. Wunderlich 250 financial based advisers and 60 capital Wunderlich. markets professionals. Wunderlich has five primary business lines: private client wealth management; asset management; investment banking; equity capital markets and institutional fixed-income trading. Anderson & Strudwick provides asset management, securities brokerage, investment banking, insurance products and related financial services. Winter 2009
Sabra Will Create 260 Jobs in 2010 Creating an estimated 260 jobs, Sabra Dipping Co. plans to launch operations in the 110,000-square-foot plant by mid-2010. The company manufactures kosher, vegetarian food and plans to invest $59.3 million to build a food-processing plant at the Ruffin Mill Industrial Park in Chesterfield County. “Sabra has emerged as a top brand in the growing dips category," Sabra Dipping Co. Chief Executive Ronen Zohar said. ‘We are projecting growth and planning exciting innovation.” Based in Astoria, N.Y., Sabra is a joint venture between PepsiCo and Strauss Group, which is Israel's second-largest food and beverage company and employs more than 11,000 people in 19 countries. www.workmagazine.biz
Bass Pro in Hanover County Bass Pro Shops, recently voted the #1 outdoor retailer in America by Sporting Goods Business Magazine, celebrated its 52nd store’s grand opening in October. The new Bass Pro Shops Outdoor World is the signature tenant for the 186-acre Winding Brook development project located at the intersection of I-95 and Lewistown Road in Hanover County. The grand opening celebration was preceded by a special evening event where area conservation groups Woo Daves set up display booths to and Bass Pro Shops educate customers on Pro Staffer their efforts and projects. Pro Shops Outdoor Chris Daves, Bass World donated a portion along with of the night’s sales to legendary benefit the National fly fishing icon Fish Initiative’s “More campaign. Lefty Kreh were Fish”Grand opening festin attendance to ivities included special share some of fly exhibits, celebrity guests, fishing secrets. store-wide savings and fantastic giveaways. Bassmaster Classic champ Woo Daves and Bass Pro Shops Pro Staffer Chris Daves, along with legendary fly fishing icon Lefty Kreh, were in attendance to share some fly fishing secrets. A major catalog and Internet retailer, Bass Pro Shops, headquartered in Springfield, MO, currently has 51 retail locations across the United States and Canada. The stores attract more than 100 million visitors a year. WORKMAGAZINE 5
RIC NEWS
JetBlue Begins Nonstop Service to Orlando, Florida JetBlue Airways has expanded its service from Richmond International Airport with the launch of the daily nonstop service to Orlando, Florida. Fares between Richmond and Orlando start at $69 each way for offpeak travel. Orlando is JetBlue’s fourth lowfare route from Richmond. The airline also jets daily to Boston, Fort Lauderdale and New York (JFK).
$800 Million Economic Impact According to a report for the Capital Region Airport Commission by Chmura Economics & Analytics of Richmond, in the past year Richmond International Airport and its tenants contributed annual sales of more than $800 million to the local economy based on Tenants the measurable benefits of at the airport airport operations, business efficiencies, visitor spent spending and their associan estimated ated ripple effects. report also indi$88.3 million catedThethat in 2007, in wages “these businesses directly employed an estimated and 2,526 workers with a total salaries. economic output of $196.1 million. Tenants at the airport spent an estimated $88.3 million in wages and salaries and about $104.3 million per year on materials, supplies and equipment— with close to half (48 percent) of these products and services purchasedfrom firms located in the Richmond region.”
Reynolds Crossing Opens in Henrico County Reynolds Crossing, a 90-acre development across from Altria Group’s headquarters near West Broad Street and Interstate 64, includes a 100,000-square-foot medical building and a 200,000-square-foot office building which opened this year, plus the region’s first Westin hotel which will open January 2009. Bon Secours is the anchor tenant in the four-story medical building. Other tenants include Commonwealth Dermatology, Cardiovascular Associates of Virginia and Partner MD, a concierge primary medical care practice. The seven-story office building is 75 percent leased. Alcoa took two floors. Other tenants include the Reynolds Packaging Group, which is part of a private-equity group, James River Insurance and The McCammon Group, a mediation and arbitration firm.
White Oak Village to Add Hyatt Place Hyatt Place, a design-forward hotel with the emphasis on “style, innovation, and The Hyatt Touch® within your reach,” is slated to open at The Shops at White Oak Village in the spring of 2009.
The Shops at White Oak Village offers 800,000 square feet of shopping and leisure space.
The hotel will offer spacious guestrooms with a 42" flat-panel HDTV, Hyatt’s signature Grand Bed,™ a plush Cozy Corner oversized sofasleeper that is separated from the sleeping area, and complimentary high-speed Wi-Fi Internet access throughout the hotel. Henrico County’s newest shopping mall opened on October 13th. Located at the intersection of I-64 and Laburnum Avenue, The Shops at White Oak Village offers 800,000 square feet of shopping and leisure space.
Hyatt Place is a design-forward hotel with the emphasis on “style, innovation.”
6 WORKMAGAZINE
www.workmagazine.biz
2009 Winter
Business First Greater Richmond is a collaborative effort that includes Chesterfield County, Henrico County, Hanover County and the City of Richmond. It is supported by the Greater Richmond Partnership, Inc. and the Greater Richmond Chamber.
www.businessfirstrichmond.com
Business Tips and Wishes for a Prosperous New Year Business First Greater Richmond is a regional economic development program aimed at supporting the growth and success of businesses who call the Richmond region home. Since 2006, we’ve interviewed more than 1,100 business leaders who have shared their stories and opinions on doing business in this market. The team has responded to more than 250 specific requests for assistance and supported more than $42 million in new business investment in the region. The good news is that Richmond rates highly as a place to do business and we’re committed to working even harder to support businesses large and small through these challenging economic times. Here are a few things to think about as you embark on a new year. Reflect: Take time to reflect on what worked and what didn’t with your business last year. Include your team and devote the necessary time to seek the information and resources you need to get to the root cause of your successes or failures in any key areas. Take a deep breath and move on. Focus: Make sure you’re focused on what’s happening with your customers AND key suppliers and partners. Frequent communication can help you avoid any surprises and may open doors to new business opportunities you didn’t know existed. Remember the 80/20 rule. Ask key customers for referrals; look for new ways to work with suppliers and vendors. These are the relationships that sustain your business. Plan: Dust off (or write!) a business plan. It doesn’t have to be extravagant. In fact, a single page with key objectives and benchmarks can serve as a guiding beacon. There are tools and resources to help you write a more comprehensive plan. The Small Business Development Center at the Greater Richmond Chamber is one example. On-line resources like www.sba.gov have a variety of templates and tutorials to walk you through the process. It’s not easy, but remember that businesses don’t plan to fail, they fail to plan. A current business plan is also a
8 WORKMAGAZINE
necessity when seeking financing. Manage: Manage your cash and monitor expenses. Make sure your financial information is in good order, manage your receivables closely and stay in touch with your creditors. There are savings opportunities everywhere, so be sure to look for opportunities to renegotiate terms and get new quotes from outside vendors. The sidebar to the right has more details about ways almost any business can reduce its expenses in a variety of categories. Lead: Often overlooked, but vital to any business is leadership. We’re not talking dictatorship here, but an organization with a clear vision and direction and a culture of open communication and continuous improvement. Recognize people making a difference. Learn: Now is the perfect time to increase your business knowledge or that of key employees in your organization. Not only can you take advantage of some time you didn’t have available for educational endeavors, it can be a real morale booster for your top producers. Are there certifications specific to your industry? Is there new technology to consider? Look to area trade associations and local training providers for customized training and avoid travel expenses. Local community colleges and universities offer many options—including on-line course work to keep those brain cells pumping. Listen: If you don’t have a group of trusted advisors, consider getting one. Even the smallest business can benefit from an informal outside advisory group. Look for people who share your business philosophy, but bring a new discipline or expertise into the mix. Share your business strategy and get their feedback. Reach Out: The Richmond region has a rich network of organizations and individuals committed to your business success. A great place to start is the Business First website at www.businessfirstrichmond.com to review a list of business resources and request a visit from a business advocate in your area.
www.workmagazine.biz
Six Ways to Cut Costs
by Lycia Rettig
As the economy slows and business costs grow, it’s becoming increasingly difficult to rely on earnings growth to improve the bottom line. Astute managers are looking to unlock the profit opportunities that lie hidden within their businesses costs. They know the impact of a 1 percent decrease in costs can equal a 2 percent increase in profits—or 10 percent more in top-line sales on typical margins. Here are six simple ways you can start to reduce your company’s expenses and find extra profit: 1. Centralize purchasing. You may be buying the same goods from different suppliers, particularly if each department seems to have its favorite suppliers. Centralize purchasing to maximize discounts through bulk purchasing power. 2. Get a second opinion. Obtain alternative quotes on everything. Advise existing suppliers that you are going out to bid and give them a chance to reduce their prices. 3. Call in a bad guy. Don’t allow the person in daily contact with a supplier to negotiate price. Use the good cop/bad cop approach. The “bad cop” removes emotion from the process and the “good cop” can preserve the established, day-to-day relationship with the vendor. 4. Ask for ideas. Take advantage of your suppliers’ expertise and their suggestions on how to improve the way you work together. Would ordering weekly instead of daily reduce their administrative costs? Would they split the savings with you? Ask you employees for ideas and incentivize them for doing so. 5. Review product specifications. Ensure that products being used do not exceed requirements. Can you use second-hand pallets for transportation? Recycled toner cartridges? 6. Clean up. Are factory items such as mats being cleaned more often than necessary? You may be able to reduce the frequency of cleaning while still maintaining safety standards. Lycia Rettig is a Director in the Richmond area for Expense Reduction Analysts, a worldwide consulting company that specializes in reducing overhead expense with fees coming from the derived savings. 2009 Winter