Final posts invicta sells chinese movements in swiss labeled watches by Watch Geeks

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Nasty Senior Member Super Geek

Seems civil to me all things considered... Nasty View Public Profile Send a private message to Nasty Send email to Nasty Find all posts by Nasty Add Nasty to Your Contacts #552 Yesterday, 07:20 PM

watchluv

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,356

Senior Member Super Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by Bahoomba Uh..who isn't being civil? In no way should this thread be closed...in no way. So many excellent points are being brought up here. And it's necessary. Not to mention vital.

I second that motion. Keep it open. __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away

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MessalineApghar Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NYC Burbs Posts: 603 Real Name: Ian

Quote: Originally Posted by MREXE the swiss law does not state 51% parts for the ENTIRE watch, only the movement, and the "value" of the total watch must be 50% swiss........what the hell does that mean? Is the cost of the engineering and design part of that???? I believe Jim addressed this, and said most watch companies outsource most of the watch, parts shipped to Swissland and assembled and inspected........Ive heard rumors that the Swiss goverment is trying to change the law to 80% across the board, but so far only a rumor. it means if the watch has 100 parts in the movement each part has a specific production cost and therefore "value" if every part of this 100-part example movement, had an equal value of $1, on a $100 movement, 51 parts and $51 would meet the "Swiss-Movement" criteria. to meet swiss-made, 51% of the cost of the movement's parts have to be made in switzerland. in some cases this might be met by 2 parts out of 100, and in some cases it might be 90 parts out of 100. a watch-owner would have no way to know how many parts (By count) in the movement are valued as "Swiss-Made" & "Switzerland Assembly" other then 51% or more of the cash value of the parts. __________________ If you wanna run cool, yes, if you wanna run cool, you've got to run on heavy heavy fuel - Dire Straits MessalineApghar

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oshuwah Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Chester County PA Posts: 904 Real Name: Josh

Eyal's description of the issue is exactly what I have always known it to be. Im cool. I know the russian divers that say swiss and cost $100 bucks were assembled in asia. I know the SAS that says swiss made and cost $300+ was assembled in Switzerland. How did this become a massive thread - this is nothing new folks. I own a full range of invicta's and love every one. Especially my new SANIV 7750. BTW - if they make a SANIV w/ a miyota assembled in Bangkok for $199 I'd buy 'em all. And so would you. __________________ ...just one more and I'll be satisfied oshuwah View Public Profile Send a private message to oshuwah Send email to oshuwah Visit oshuwah's homepage! Find all posts by oshuwah Add oshuwah to Your Contacts #555

Yesterday, 07:23 PM

reliefcp Senior Member Master WatchGeek

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To those that choose to not be civil like the ones using the XL letters in their type please find another thread. __________________

reliefcp View Public Profile Send a private message to reliefcp Find all posts by reliefcp Add reliefcp to Your Contacts #556 Yesterday, 07:23 PM

MessalineApghar Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NYC Burbs Posts: 603 Real Name: Ian

Originally Posted by timeman Because it's better marketing to have "Swiss" on the dial that will sell more watches. no. Being marked "Swiss" is actually a LOWER requirement then "Swiss Parts Movement" __________________ If you wanna run cool, yes, if you wanna run cool, you've got to run on heavy heavy fuel - Dire Straits MessalineApghar View Public Profile Send a private message to MessalineApghar Send email to MessalineApghar Find all posts by MessalineApghar Add MessalineApghar to Your Contacts #557 Yesterday, 07:24 PM

tampa8 Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by nycruza

TIME TO LOCK THIS DOWN! Seems some people cannot keep it civil. I don't understand, still one of the most civil threads I can remember for such a passionate subject... __________________ Remember, watches are people too. tampa8 View Public Profile Send a private message to tampa8

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Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

Unless you have any further questions for Eyal, please do not post here... Thank you... Is Eyal coming back to answer the questions posted thus far? __________________

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MessalineApghar Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NYC Burbs Posts: 603 Real Name: Ian

Quote: Originally Posted by Time Bandit Is Eyal coming back to answer the questions posted thus far? Just a guess, but I believe he's probably "subscribed" to a thread he answered personally. __________________ If you wanna run cool, yes, if you wanna run cool, you've got to run on heavy heavy fuel - Dire Straits MessalineApghar View Public Profile Send a private message to MessalineApghar Send email to MessalineApghar Find all posts by MessalineApghar Add MessalineApghar to Your Contacts #560 Yesterday, 07:29 PM

invictaddicted Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 321 Real Name: Gary

Quote: Originally Posted by watchluv Advice to Eyal. Just a note as mentioned before. Try and follow behind the way Daniel, Wing, Larry, and Lior (Swiss Legend). When they put a Chinese, Japanese, or Swiss Movement they let you know what is inside because they know most of there customers don't open the case backs. They are honest, honesty is the policy. I hope you read this and have a change of heart, then a change in company procedures. It's not all about money at the end of the day, it's about a clear conscience and pease of mind. Loyalty to your customers. Good Luck. yeah use renato as an example, they are the epitome of honest....... limited edition renato anyone? invictaddicted View Public Profile Send a private message to invictaddicted

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MessalineApghar Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NYC Burbs Posts: 603 Real Name: Ian

Quote: Originally Posted by oshuwah Eyal's description of the issue is exactly what I have always known it to be. Im cool. I know the russian divers that say swiss and cost $100 bucks were assembled in asia. I know the SAS that says swiss made and cost $300+ was assembled in Switzerland. How did this become a massive thread - this is nothing new folks. I own a full range of invicta's and love every one. Especially my new SANIV 7750. BTW - if they make a SANIV w/ a miyota assembled in Bangkok for $199 I'd buy 'em all. And so would you. Absolutely. I want my OS20 SAS. for $199. __________________ If you wanna run cool, yes, if you wanna run cool, you've got to run on heavy heavy fuel - Dire Straits MessalineApghar View Public Profile Send a private message to MessalineApghar Send email to MessalineApghar Find all posts by MessalineApghar Add MessalineApghar to Your Contacts #562 Yesterday, 07:40 PM

watchluv

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,356

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Question to Eyal. Is the 5040E movement all Swiss Made? __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away watchluv View Public Profile Send a private message to watchluv Find all posts by watchluv Add watchluv to Your Contacts #563 Yesterday, 07:40 PM

Argabright

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,780

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Quote: Originally Posted by MessalineApghar no. Being marked "Swiss" is actually a LOWER requirement then "Swiss Parts Movement" According to WHOM? ShopNBC hosts and the Invicta Technical Brand Manager specifically and REPEATEDLY stated that SWISS was the same as SWISS MADE. Presumably this was with Eyal's blessing, if not at his direction. Now, of course, after photographic proof to the contrary was posted, these new definitions are being offered. __________________

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kless13 Member Member Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by MessalineApghar Absolutely. I want my OS20 SAS. for $199. Funny. kless13 View Public Profile Send a private message to kless13 Find all posts by kless13 Add kless13 to Your Contacts #565

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Yesterday, 07:46 PM

MessalineApghar Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NYC Burbs Posts: 603 Real Name: Ian

Quote: Originally Posted by Argabright According to WHOM? ShopNBC hosts and the Invicta Technical Brand Manager specifically and REPEATEDLY stated that SWISS was the same as SWISS MADE. Presumably this was with Eyal's blessing, if not at his direction. Now, of course, after photographic proof to the contrary was posted, these new definitions are being offered. The laws regarding Origin of watches & movements, are clear, and posted elsewhere on the site. US Customs has laws regarding this, as does the Swiss Government. While I can't and won't argue what was said, because obviously there were either mistakes or outright misleading claims made, I can say that the watches themselves are in all probability, properly marked. now for my education, Has Invicta ever marked a watch marked as "Swiss Movement" or "Swiss Parts Movement" ? I know they have marketed both "Swiss" and "SwissMade", but have they used any of the in-between gradings ? Oh and BTW, I know there have been companies that label and market as "ALL Swiss Made" . without owning one, I can say that I'm sure these are the Breitlings and Rolexs of the world. __________________ If you wanna run cool, yes, if you wanna run cool, you've got to run on heavy heavy fuel - Dire Straits MessalineApghar View Public Profile Send a private message to MessalineApghar Send email to MessalineApghar Find all posts by MessalineApghar Add MessalineApghar to Your Contacts #566 Yesterday, 07:57 PM

timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,730 Real Name: Jerry

Quote: Originally Posted by MessalineApghar no. Being marked "Swiss" is actually a LOWER requirement then "Swiss Parts Movement" You have it wrong my friend. If a manufacture follows the Swiss Federation definition of a Swiss made watch, "Swiss Made" is the same as "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock hour marker. Both terms mean a Swiss Made watch. If a manufacture is following the U.S. Custom regulations, the word "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock hour marker mean the watch has a Swiss Made Movement, meaning Swiss parts assembled in Switzerland. A movement that has Swiss parts and assembled outside Switzerland is your Swiss parts movement. A watch is considered the best if it's Swiss Made, followed by one with a Swiss Made movement, and then one with a Swiss parts movement. The value of a watch follows this same order. __________________

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MessalineApghar Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NYC Burbs Posts: 603 Real Name: Ian

Quote: Originally Posted by timeman You have it wrong my friend. If a manufacture follows the Swiss Federation definition of a Swiss made watch, "Swiss Made" is the same as "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock hour marker. Both terms mean a Swiss Made watch. If a manufacture is following the U.S. Custom regulations, the word "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock hour marker mean the watch has a Swiss Made Movement, meaning Swiss parts assembled in Switzerland. A movement that has Swiss parts and assembled outside Switzerland is your Swiss parts movement. A watch is considered the best if it's Swiss Made, followed by one with a Swiss Made movement, and then one with a Swiss parts movement. The value of a watch follows this same order. Honestly, no sarcasm, thank you for the correction. Quote: Originally Posted by timeman ...A watch is considered the best if it's Swiss Made, followed by one with a Swiss Made movement, and then one with a Swiss parts movement. The value of a watch follows this same order. << I knew that the SM-SMM-SPM were staged like that, I had reason to believe "Swiss" was a lower spec, a 4th tier if you get me, below even swiss-parts-movement. my apologies for confusing anyone. __________________ If you wanna run cool, yes, if you wanna run cool, you've got to run on heavy heavy fuel - Dire Straits MessalineApghar View Public Profile Send a private message to MessalineApghar Send email to MessalineApghar

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rjaybass

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Cleveland,Ohio Posts: 134 Real Name: Bob Stokes

Senior Member Senior Geek

I have heard Jim say that in order for a watch to be Swiss Made it must be at least %51 Swiss parts and assembled and inspected in Switzerland. That leaves alot of non Swiss parts in there. So.... any other designation MUST be taken with several grains of salt. This entire broo ha has been much about very little.. IMO rjaybass View Public Profile Send a private message to rjaybass Send email to rjaybass Find all posts by rjaybass Add rjaybass to Your Contacts #569 Yesterday, 08:04 PM

timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote: Originally Posted by MessalineApghar Honestly, no sarcasm, thank you for the correction.

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,730 Real Name: Jerry

<< I knew that the SM-SMM-SPM were staged like that, I had reason to believe "Swiss" was a lower spec, a 4th tier if you get me, below even swiss-parts-movement. my apologies for confusing anyone. No problem my friend. __________________

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watchluv

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,356

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Quote: Originally Posted by rjaybass I have heard Jim say that in order for a watch to be Swiss Made it must be at least %51 Swiss parts and assembled and inspected in Switzerland. That leaves alot of non Swiss parts in there. So.... any other designation MUST be taken with several grains of salt. This entire broo ha has been much about very little.. IMO You left out the most important. The movement must be Swiss Made. __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away watchluv

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rhickey

Join Date: May 2009 Location: Altamonte Springs, FL Posts: 136 Real Name: Rob

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We should have a "Look what I REALLY got" thread in which we pop open are casebacks to reveal what's really in our new Invicta!!! rhickey View Public Profile Send a private message to rhickey Find all posts by rhickey Add rhickey to Your Contacts #572 Yesterday, 08:26 PM

GeorgeTheWatchGuy

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: OHIO Posts: 8,023

WatchGeeks Moderator True WatchGeek

This thread

will remain open, as long as you honor the request I

made eariler... No more evaluations of Eyal's responce... Only direct

questions for Eyal... This rehashing, & rehashing, of all your evaluations, is not helping getting any further responses from him...If I'm having a hard time keeping up with this thread, how do you think he or his team are doing??? Thank you again for the last time! __________________

"There are Two Types of Pain in this World: The Temporary Pain of Discipline, or the Permanent Pain of Regret"... GTWG GeorgeTheWatchGuy View Public Profile Send a private message to GeorgeTheWatchGuy Find all posts by GeorgeTheWatchGuy Add GeorgeTheWatchGuy to Your Contacts #573 Yesterday, 09:18 PM

Scout13 Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Manlius, New York Posts: 399 Real Name: Randy

George, Your the man, thanks for keeping th thread open. This is what a forum is for, the good and the bad should be able to be discussed openly. Old or new info, does not matter,

many people are very concerned and it's good to let it all hang out.. __________________

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buddah00 Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: GA Posts: 1,199 Real Name: Isaac

WOW That was a long and interesting read. I am still processing it all. Invicta makes up the majority of my collection several of them are in the $800-$1500 range. I appreciate Eyal posting a response and I understand marketing and have no problem with a company highlighting the aspects of a product that appeals to consumers. I don't understand and would like to know why we were told that Swiss = Swiss Made, when that is not the case. I am happy with my Invictas, I am eagerly awaiting the two SAN IV's I bought this weekend. (One quartz, one automatic) I just want to know what I am purchasing. __________________

I want what every other man want's, I Just want it MORE!

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blduckhockey

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Jersey Posts: 92 Real Name: Barry

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I have one watch that I know is pure swiss made. A rolex explorer. When it was cleaned and tuned up a bit after 6 years, I asked the technician more or less as a joke was it a fake. He explained no way--talked about serial numbers, the mark inside the back of the cae with the manufacture date that match up, the seal etc. markings on the rotor and on. I got an education by just joking if it was a fake. I guess it is real!!! But I buy a watch because I like how it looks and runs. I like Invictas. I guess because I have a true bottom of the line swiss rolex, I could care where my Invicta was made. That said---just tell the truth---I would buy anyway if I like it---the bottom line to me.

samuelrz Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: May 2009 Location: N. California Posts: 1,334 Real Name: Sam

Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

This thread

will remain open, as long as you honor the request I

made eariler... No more evaluations of Eyal's responce... Only direct questions for Eyal... This rehashing, & rehashing, of all your evaluations, is not helping getting any further responses from him...If I'm having a hard time keeping up with this thread, how do you think he or his team are doing??? Thank you again for the last time! You are a gentleman and a scholar. This thread has kept the moderators busy. I've learned a lot and you guys have kept it civil. Cheers. __________________ SAM -

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hooptious02 Member Member Geek

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 50

I dunno...I guess the definitions always seemed clear to me, and I appreciate Eyal's clarification. I knew my "lower-end" Invictas (Sport Python and the like) were Swiss Parts. My SANIII, Swiss Made. Never for a minute thought, for example, that my Sea Spider Sport could *possibly* have been Swiss Made for the price...even *if* it said "Swiss" on the dial. At some point, simple common sense has to kick in, and that old adage of "you get what you pay for" applies. It's simple. I buy Invictas for *affordability*, and do my homework before jumping on the phone or on the Shop to buy ASAP the minute I see the first presentation. If I've had a doubt, I don't buy. If I've had a doubt, I check the threads here and see what's out there regarding my prospective purchase. Above all, I've *never* expected to pay less than $350 on a *good* day for a "Swiss Made" Invicta. Again, I'm *never* going to be one of those folks lucky enough to have $3k or up to buy one of the *major* brands. Like other posters have said, I look for the value that Invicta offers...if that means I save up and drop $350 for a Swiss Made watch, having done my *own* homework to make sure it *is* Swiss Made so be it. If I drop $125 and get what *I* consider to be a steal on a "swiss parts" watch, and I *love* the watch, so be it. Seriously folks...at the end of the day, you're buying an Invicta, on a TV shopping channel...never will be a Tag, or a Breitling, Patek Phillipe, or anything else. Not meaning to downplay what I consider to be the *value* of Invicta, as I've been nothing but happy thus far with my purchases...but it's called perspective, folks...and why most of us won't *touch* an Invicta above the $350 sweet-spot, no matter how much we may drool over it. hooptious02 View Public Profile Send a private message to hooptious02 Find all posts by hooptious02 Add hooptious02 to Your Contacts #578 Yesterday, 10:54 PM

ranger1482

Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Toledo, OH Posts: 129 Real Name: Matt

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I'm happy to be a better educated consumer after all of this, and while I don't really agree with everything that has been said, I love that we all have a place to debate topics such as this one. I really don't care where a watch was made or where the parts came from, I want to love the look of the watch and I want it to work for a long time. However, I am seriously having a trust issue right now. I need to feel that I can trust the company and the store that I am shopping with. I think the burning question for me is, "What is invicta and shopnbc going to do to regain my trust after this?" Coming out and finally clarifying the truth is a start, but I also need to see apologies. Truth is, I would have bought each of the watches I bought whether they said made in china, swiss made or made in the USA. However, either due to a mistake or an attempt to mislead me, the products I bought were in some cases were misrepresented...and as the customer, I have the right to ask "why?" If I like the answers and feel they come from a man/woman of integrity, then I can live with what happened. If I don't, then the brand loyality of myself and my father will no longer exist. I'm not saying I would never buy a watch from Invicta again, but I would be extremely careful. I only ask that anyone who takes the time to read my post to please understand that for me this isn't a matter of Swiss vs Swiss Made and what each means. Rather this is an issue of trusting the people I send my money to. ps - Thank you Jim for giving us a place to discuss this issue, thank you moderators for allowing this thread to continue, and thank you Eyal for taking your time set us all straight on the facts. ranger1482 View Public Profile Send a private message to ranger1482 Find all posts by ranger1482 Add ranger1482 to Your Contacts #579

Yesterday, 11:05 PM

nycruza Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,352 Real Name: A.J.

Yes, an Asian Movement can still equal "Swiss Made" watch, unless I am misinterpreting the following: "In the case of products that have been only partly manufactured in Switzerland, the rule applies that the Swiss portion of the production cost (including basic materials, semifinished products, accessories, wages and production overhead excluding distribution costs) must be at least 50%. The Swiss portion of the production cost must be at least 50%. • The most important part of the manufacturing process must have taken place in Switzerland. The “most important part of the manufacturing process” is that part of the process that results in a completely new product. The determining factor here is that the original characteristics of the goods are lost through the manufacturing process, and the possible application of the goods is different from that of the basic materials of foreign origin used in their manufacture." In a watch/timepiece the part that results in a "completely new product" deals with CASE, BEZEL, DIAL. Movements do NOT result in a "completely new product". Therefore, a watch that meets the criteria above with a movement from ANYWHERE may be labeled "Swiss Made". __________________

SANIII on the Rocks with a Twist of Lemon

nycruza View Public Profile Send a private message to nycruza Find all posts by nycruza Add nycruza to Your Contacts #580 Yesterday, 11:13 PM Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,748

KOKONUTZ Senior Member Super Geek

Eyal thank you for your time, thoughtful, and clear response here. You are an incredibly bright young man with strong leadership of your organization. KOKONUTZ View Public Profile Send a private message to KOKONUTZ Find all posts by KOKONUTZ Add KOKONUTZ to Your Contacts #581 Today, 12:49 AM

Franky5Angels Senior Member Veteran Geek

I am looking forward to watching the ShopNBC shows and see how watches are presented question for EYAL since only watchgeeks will see your explaination will Mike , Jim , Jill and all the hosts provide this information to the vast audience of ShopNBC. I think

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 816

everyone buying a watch should be made aware of the fact that SWISS does not mean SWISS MADE. misleading information has been given on ShopNBC for a very long time and should be corrected __________________

Ask any racer. Any real racer. It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning's winning Franky5Angels View Public Profile Send a private message to Franky5Angels Find all posts by Franky5Angels Add Franky5Angels to Your Contacts #582 Today, 01:59 AM

meijin WatchGeeks Owner True WatchGeek

Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 11,186 Real Name: Michael

This is going to be my only comment on this subject... Regardless of what anyone on this site says, the information that I provided regarding the usage of "Swiss" and "Swiss Made" was information that I fully believed to be accurate and correct as well as information that was passed to me. I have, in the past, gone out of my way to ensure that I only imparted accurate information to Invicta and SNBC customers. Personal attacks as well as attacks against my honesty, character and integrity aside, I have never once passed along information that I knew to be wrong or even that I thought might be wrong.

If anyone doubts the above, use the search tool on this site. In the 26 months that this site has been active, I have stated exactly the same thing that I have said on air. That happens to be 16 months longer than I have been working for Invicta. As a matter of fact, for those that have been watching the shows on SNBC, you will note that exactly what I have said here on the subject is exactly what has been said on the shows for the last 6 years. Which just happens to be 5 years and 2 months longer than I have been working for Invicta. Again, the information that I presented was what I thought to be correct and what had been communicated to me. If anyone here feels misled by me, then you have my apologies. I can only present to you that which I think is true. For those that wish to continue with the attacks, I am glad that I have spent a few thousand of hours of my life to give you the platform to do so. __________________ Michael

Argument is meant to reveal the truth, not to create it. ~ Edward de Bono Invicta...in hoc nomen vinces!

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timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,730 Real Name: Jerry

Swiss Doesn't Equal Swiss Made Anymore? Was watching Michael and Daniel Green present the Invicta Men's Russian Diver

Quinotaur Swiss Quartz GMT Polyurethane Strap Watch - J179582 last night.

Previously Michael has stated on air this watch was "Swiss Made" and the only reason why the two words Swiss Made wasn't on the dial, but just Swiss, was because they didn't have room on a 52mm case diameter to print it. Last night thing changed. I didn't hear the word Swiss mentioned once. Only that the watch had the Ronda 515.24H Quartz GMT movement. The Ronda 515.24H Quartz GMT is made in two versions, one Swiss Made and the other with Swiss parts. I believe this watch has the Swiss parts version. Happy to see Michael is no longer calling a watch Swiss made when it's not. Now to take "Swiss" off the dial unless the watch has at least a Swiss Made movement. __________________

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timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,730 Real Name: Jerry

I believe in your honesty and know you were only reporting what was told to you by Invicta. I think you do a great job. Thank you for your many hours on the air and for giving all the geeks this forum. __________________

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#585 Today, 02:47 AM

jackson Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 122

In order to show context Eyal's full statement may be found beneath the questions. QUESTIONS FOR EYAL: 1. What does "Team Invicta" have to do with the decision to label Chinese made/and or assembled watches "Swiss" on the dial? Wasn't the ultimate decision to do this yours and yours alone? 2. You say 'Swiss' "...WAS (emphasis mine) used on watches as a description for a watch using a movement with Swiss parts Origin." Have you discontinued this practice in your latest production runs or would it be more accurate to say that 'Swiss' "...IS used on (Invicta's) watches...using a movement with Swiss parts Origin." 3. You continue with the statement that Invicta watches labeled "Swiss" on the dial "...INCLUDES (emphasis mine) movements that are bought from SWISS COMPANIES, with SWISS ENGINEERING, that are tested in Switzerland, but has components that are sent off to the Far East for cost purposes to be assembled." Does Invicta also label watches "Swiss" on the dial which use movements that are bought from non-Swiss companies, with non-Swiss engineering, that are not tested in Switzerland? 4. Is Invicta's practice of labeling watches "Swiss" on the dial even though they have Asian assembled and/or made movements in compliance with U.S. Customs law governing movement origin and labeling? If your answer is "yes", is this the opinion of legal counsel or is this just your personal assurance? __________________________________________________ ____________ Quote: Originally Posted by TeamInvicta I have been asked to personally clarify the confusion with the markings on the watches. I feel I have a confident and open enough relationship with our customers to make a clear statement and get this matter clarified once and for all. While I know that it is impossible to satisfy everyone, it is our commitment to keep a top level relationship with our very loyal customer base. There is a definite gray area in the use of the words “Swiss”, “Swiss Made”, “Swiss Movements”, “Swiss Parts”, “Swiss Components”, and “Swiss Registration”. The fact

of the matter is that, like in many “multiple-component” products, where the country of origin adds value to the product, we tend to highlight that. A perfect example is the auto industry. You might buy a Mercedes that is manufactured in Mexico using German engineering, some German parts, etc. The brand focuses on highlighting their “German” standards. Much in the same way, the watch industry does when Swiss is present. Without mentioning brands, it is important to understand that Switzerland almost produces NO watch components except parts associated with the movements, and assembly. What this means is that if you bought a $6000.00 Swiss Made Chronograph from “Brand X”, what you are likely buying is a watch that houses a Swiss Made movement (And even the movement components themselves have their own complicated breakdown value. For instance, even if a movement is “Swiss Made”, it does not mean every part in the movement was made in Switzerland, only a given percentage of that ) and the watch was assembled and tested in Switzerland. We do the same, and hopefully that brings clarity to everyone that when we mark a watch “Swiss Made”, you are buying a Swiss Made watch with a Swiss made movement, that is assembled in Switzerland. Then we get into the way we use the word “SWISS”. The the word “Swiss” was used on watches as a description for a watch using a movement with Swiss part Origins. This includes movements that are bought from SWISS COMPANIES, with SWISS ENGENEERING, that are tested in Switzerland, but has components that are sent off to the Far East for cost purposes to be assembled. Examples of these are ETA, Ronda, ISA, “Far East versions”. They were developed to assist in delivering the consumer more value, on an otherwise identical item. Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss Movement Far East assembly version. Yes as companies we do call more attention to this than the fact that the movement is assembled in China, but that’s marketing. Then there is the talk about the Swiss Federation. I cannot speak too much into the Swiss Federation standard because it is a private foreign entity, not a law dictating body, and we do not belong to it for a variety of reasons I prefer not to go into. I respect companies developing a stamp of approval and charging for it, such as COSC, but to be part of a group that develops standards on watches based on the direction of the “big players” in the watch industry, and attempting to apply them to smaller companies without giving them a fair chance, is a monopoly, and I am strongly against that. I make this statement on a personal level, and hope that it can bring some level of clarity to this discussion. Sincerely, Eyal

Last edited by jackson; Today at 02:56 AM. Reason: Clarity jackson View Public Profile Send a private message to jackson Find all posts by jackson Add jackson to Your Contacts #586 Today, 02:52 AM

bwag829

Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: West Springfield, MA Posts: 1,741 Real Name: Bill

Senior Member Super Geek

I would like to know what Jim S has to say about this. He is the reason I came to shop, came to this site, and buy Invicta. Unless I missed his post. If I did I apologize. After reading this I need to take a step back. Go have a coffee and really decide does this really matter. I buy because of the movements, Does it matter if its swiss or not. I don't know. I just don't know. Interesting view points. bwag829 View Public Profile Send a private message to bwag829 Find all posts by bwag829 Add bwag829 to Your Contacts #587 Today, 03:05 AM

jlovesseconds Senior Member Super Geek

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ther is another thread on this subject running now with over 400 post jlovesseconds View Public Profile Send a private message to jlovesseconds Send email to jlovesseconds Find all posts by jlovesseconds Add jlovesseconds to Your Contacts #588 Today, 03:20 AM

timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,730 Real Name: Jerry

Quote: Originally Posted by jlovesseconds ther is another thread on this subject running now with over 400 post On last night's show? __________________

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SeaVulture Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 1,786 Real Name: William

Are we tilting at windmills here? __________________

Welcome to The Invicta Reserve SubAqua Venom Valgrange A07.211 Automatic WatchGeek Registry! http://watchgeeks.net/showthread.php?t=90044 SeaVulture View Public Profile Send a private message to SeaVulture Find all posts by SeaVulture Add SeaVulture to Your Contacts #590 Today, 03:24 AM

timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,730 Real Name: Jerry

Quote: Originally Posted by jackson In order to show context Eyal's full statement may be found beneath the questions. QUESTIONS FOR EYAL: 1. What does "Team Invicta" have to do with the decision to label Chinese made/and or assembled watches "Swiss" on the dial? Wasn't the ultimate decision to do this yours and yours alone? 2. You say 'Swiss' "...WAS (emphasis mine) used on watches as a description for a watch using a movement with Swiss parts Origin." Have you discontinued this practice in your latest production runs or would it be more accurate to say that 'Swiss' "...IS used on (Invicta's) watches...using a movement with Swiss parts Origin." 3. You continue with the statement that Invicta watches labeled "Swiss" on the dial "...INCLUDES (emphasis mine) movements that are bought from SWISS COMPANIES, with SWISS ENGINEERING, that are tested in Switzerland, but has components that are sent off to the Far East for cost purposes to be assembled." Does Invicta also label watches "Swiss" on the dial which use movements that are bought from non-Swiss companies, with non-Swiss engineering, that are not tested in Switzerland? 4. Is Invicta's practice of labeling watches "Swiss" on the dial even though they have Asian assembled and/or made movements in compliance with U.S. Customs law governing movement origin and labeling? If your answer is "yes", is this the opinion of legal counsel or is this just your personal assurance? __________________________________________________ ____________ Excellent questions. Hopeful Eyal will answer but don't hold your breath. __________________

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strutn45 Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Franky5Angels Senior Member Veteran Geek

Mike I do not believe anyone on this forum thinks you as an individual intentionally mislead anyone with information you presented. You went on as a representative of Invicta and only stated the information given to you by Invicta. My question is now that the truth is known by the members here on watchgeeks will someone such as yourself or Jim or Eyal inform all of the customers on ShopNBC of the actual origin of "SWISS" watches. If not down right fraud it certainly is misleading. I for one could not continue to represent Invicta unless I was allowed to inform the audience of exactly what they are

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 816

purchasing. __________________

SeaVulture Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 1,786 Real Name: William

Perhaps some folks might be happy to read the definition of the term "Swiss Made", "Swiss", etc., as it is posted in several places on the Internet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Made http://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php There are numerous sources on the subject. Perhaps a little reading will prevent sophomoric behavior. There's no necessity in behaving like a victim, if you are truly informed.

Here's one for a little fun: http://www.swissmade.com/ __________________

wave3214 Senior Member True WatchGeek

this subject is getting beat to death __________________

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curiousgeorge Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Mpls Posts: 2,354 Real Name: George

What Invicta has done is not illegal here so slow down. They have been in business with Eyal since 1991 so he knows what labels are legal. Ford is an American owned car company who manufactures quite a few of their cars and small trucks in mexico. Are they sold as American made Yes. Nowhere do they say made in Mexico. Since the companies that make the movements, Rhonda, Isa, Eta(No longer), own and manufacture some of their movements in China being Swiss owned this title Swiss can be used. My wife owns five Lucienn Piccard watches labeled Swiss. They cost less then a hundred bucks. Pop open the back and the same Made in china will be found. Rotary sells a line of watches that on the dial says Swiss since 1883 on the dial. No swiss made movements in them. Haurex advertises as Italian Design>Italian owned but they buy all their cases, parts, and movements in China. Stuhrling has a back story of the great Max Stuhrling from some 200 years ago used to make the product look more German then it is when in fact Max Stuhrling was a purchased name and they have been around for only 20 years. At least Larry Magan is very open about it, but if you bought without knowing Larry you might think you were buying a brand that has rich, deep history. SUG watches, Loius Bolle, and Klaus Kobec, and stuff like that buy names from past horological figures and slap them on their product to make them look more then they are. Is this stuff all deceptive, YES! But illegal>NOPE! Educate yourself and buy accordingly to suit your

wants and needs. curiousgeorge View Public Profile Send a private message to curiousgeorge Find all posts by curiousgeorge Add curiousgeorge to Your Contacts #596 Today, 04:39 AM

DIAMANTE Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,797

Quote: Originally Posted by curiousgeorge ....snip.... SUG watches, Loius Bolle, and Klaus Kobec, and stuff like that buy names from past horological figures and slap them on their product to make them look more then they are. Is this stuff all deceptive, YES! But illegal>NOPE! Educate yourself and buy accordingly to suit your wants and needs. I think everyone understands this. It is perfectly legal. The difference with Invicta is that they repeatedly hammer home that their watches marked Swiss meet Swiss Federation guidelines for Swiss Made, ie. have a Swiss Made movement. They don't just let consumers draw their own incorrect conclusions - they have a strategy to actively misreprsent their products. Still waiting for an answer to my original question: Do the Reserve models marked Swiss have Asian assembled movements? If so, whats to say the whole Reserve watch isn't made in China? D __________________ Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c) DIAMANTE

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Gencoupe10 Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Staten Island, New York Posts: 236 Real Name: Eddie B.

Quote: Originally Posted by timeman Was watching Michael and Daniel Green present the Invicta Men's Russian Diver Quinotaur Swiss Quartz GMT Polyurethane Strap Watch - J179582 last night.

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rhickey

Join Date: May 2009 Location: Altamonte Springs, FL Posts: 136 Real Name: Rob

Senior Member Senior Geek

I have a sneaking suspicion that quite a few of the watches are not 51% or greater Swiss anything but are represented as such. I don't think anyone has attacked Meijin's character, or told him to take off his tin foil hat! rhickey View Public Profile Send a private message to rhickey Find all posts by rhickey Add rhickey to Your Contacts #599 Today, 05:19 AM

BigJoe

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island New York Posts: 21,849

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If you really want to know call Invicta and find out 1-954-921-2444 good luck.

__________________

Big Joe like's watches and good friends. Take care and be safe. [ Big Joe ]

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watch76 Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 103

had enough of invicta and all their stories., no more invictas.

sandman20 Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,019

I'm actually speechless after learning how we have been knowingly deceived all of these years. The only one I blame is Eyal as he gave the information to Mike, JS and SNBC. And this was not a "sales tactic" or "marketing", the way I see it, saying SWISS = SWISS MADE is just a lie, nothing less. He knew what was being said for years and never corrected anyone. I also find it hard to believe so many WG's don't have an issue with this. Using the automobile comparison Eyal raised, would you not be upset if a car dealer told you the

engine in your BMW was built in Germany and it was actually built in China? I would think so! This is no different on a much smaller scale. I feel my two Venom's are worth quite a bit less today being made in China than they were yesterday when they were SWISS MADE. My question to Eyal: Do you find it hard to sleep at night knowing how you mislead your loyal customers for such a long time? sandman20 View Public Profile Send a private message to sandman20 Find all posts by sandman20 Add sandman20 to Your Contacts #602 Today, 05:41 AM

trav Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 678

Quote: Ford is an American owned car company who manufactures quite a few of their cars and small trucks in mexico. Are they sold as American made Yes. Nowhere do they say made in Mexico. 100% Incorrect! Federal law mandates the origin of the country and the % of the parts that were manufactured elsewhere must be clearly displayed on the new car window sticker.Federal law also dictates the country of manufacture must be on the vehicle identification sticker usually affixed on the drivers side body door frame,trunk etc.Also the VIN itself must contain plant where the car was built information in the form of a letter or number. The Ford analogy is poor,sure they make cars around the world but if they put a "U.S.A." as the country of origin on the documentation or even on the car alone and it was not Ford would be in violation of Federal law and yes guilty of a crime. Invicta may very well have some legal issues if these watches were actually ever imported into the United States under 19 U.S.C 1304. As the movements are clearly marked in accordance with 19 U.S.C 1304 its more than possible that the components were assembled in the U.S. therefore circumventing 1304.At that point placing the word "Swiss" is probably more of a consumer fraud issue because it implies the country or origin is different that what it really is.

Without all the facts this is somewhat speculative but the laws and codes are clear. http://www.faqs.org/rulings/rulings1994HQ0735197.html trav View Public Profile Find all posts by trav Add trav to Your Contacts #603 Today, 05:43 AM

strutn45 Senior Member True WatchGeek

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: "Da Swamp" LA. Posts: 9,047 Real Name: John "WHO DAT"

Quote: Originally Posted by sandman20 I'm actually speechless after learning how we have been knowingly deceived all of these years. The only one I blame is Eyal as he gave the information to Mike, JS and SNBC. And this was not a "sales tactic" or "marketing", the way I see it, saying SWISS = SWISS MADE is just a lie, nothing less. He knew what was being said for years and never corrected anyone. I also find it hard to believe so many WG's don't have an issue with this. Using the automobile comparison Eyal raised, would you not be upset if a car dealer told you the engine in your BMW was built in Germany and it was actually built in China? I would think so! This is no different on a much smaller scale. I feel my two Venom's are worth quite a bit less today being made in China than they were yesterday when they were SWISS MADE. My question to Eyal: Do you find it hard to sleep at night knowing how you mislead your loyal customers for such a long time? Thought you were speechless...guess not, hope you sleep tonight. __________________

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50mm&up Senior Member True WatchGeek

Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Braintee, MA. Posts: 11,462 Real Name: Rick

Check this thread out, post #401. Its a direct statement from Eyal regarding swiss vs. swiss made. Its straight from the horses mouth. http://watchgeeks.net/showthread.php...ght=swiss+made __________________

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sandman20 Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,019

Funny stutn45, I guess I wasn't that speechless after all :-) Okay, how about a real question for Eyal: I'm curious on what you feel the quality difference is between the Chinese built Venom's and the SWISS MADE ones? I have two of the SWISS models made in China and the Venom kit which is SWISS MADE, would you say the SWISS MADE is a better built watch? sandman20 View Public Profile Send a private message to sandman20 Find all posts by sandman20 Add sandman20 to Your Contacts #606 Today, 05:51 AM

RipitRon Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vancouver, Wa Posts: 2,629

I am sure glad that it really doesnt matter to me if its Swiss made, USA made, Canada made, China made or Japanese made. Whew at least I didnt loose sleep over the whole Swiss deal! At the price paid for the watch did one really think that it was completely Swiss made? __________________ Not the official Invicta complain Dept RipitRon View Public Profile

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50mm&up Senior Member True WatchGeek

Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Braintee, MA. Posts: 11,462 Real Name: Rick

What does it really matter. Look how far Chinese movts. have come and i know they are assembled in China. Eyal gave his answer here. Thats enough for me. I don't buy strictly swiss made movts. Why do we have to hammer the exact people who bring us the watches we love? First Daniel Mink, now Eyal. If you feel you've been slighted in some way, please find a way to get over it and move on so this place can be enjoyable once again. __________________

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strutn45 Senior Member True WatchGeek

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: "Da Swamp" LA. Posts: 9,047 Real Name: John "WHO DAT"

Quote: Originally Posted by sandman20 Funny stutn45, I guess I wasn't that speechless after all :-) Okay, how about a real question for Eyal: I'm curious on what you feel the quality difference is between the Chinese built Venom's and the SWISS MADE ones? I have two of the SWISS models made in China and the Venom kit which is SWISS MADE, would you say the SWISS MADE is a better built watch? I have never had a problem with either...just sold my Venom kit last weekend but i have a couple of RD's with SWISS on the dial and they have performed flawlessly... they still look good and feel good to me, thats all that matters...i'm happy. __________________

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RipitRon Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vancouver, Wa Posts: 2,629

Originally Posted by 50mm&up What does it really matter. Look how far Chinese movts. have come and i know they are assembled in China. Eyal gave his answer here. Thats enough for me. I don't buy strictly swiss made movts. Why do we have to hammer the exact people who bring us the watches we love? First Daniel Mink, now Eyal. If you feel you've been slighted in some way, please find a way to get over it and move on so this place can be enjoyable once again. You might as well be talking too a wall Fitty! __________________ Not the official Invicta complain Dept RipitRon View Public Profile Send a private message to RipitRon Find all posts by RipitRon Add RipitRon to Your Contacts #610 Today, 06:00 AM

HondaLover Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Chapel Hill, North Carolina Posts: 2,510 Real Name: John

I look at it sort of like replica watches. They say one thing on the dial, and yet they are really not. __________________ John

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50mm&up Senior Member True WatchGeek

Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Braintee, MA. Posts: 11,462 Real Name: Rick

Quote: Originally Posted by RipitRon You might as well be talking too a wall Fitty! http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2285/...279288b7f0.jpg __________________

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RipitRon Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vancouver, Wa Posts: 2,629

Originally Posted by 50mm&up http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2285/...279288b7f0.jpg Exactly!!! __________________ Not the official Invicta complain Dept RipitRon View Public Profile Send a private message to RipitRon Find all posts by RipitRon Add RipitRon to Your Contacts #613 Today, 06:09 AM

MREXE

Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: colorado Posts: 1,012

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Eyal, if swiss is marked on a Reserve line watch.............then the Reserve line is meaningless? MREXE View Public Profile Send a private message to MREXE Find all posts by MREXE Add MREXE to Your Contacts #614 Today, 06:11 AM

DIAMANTE Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,797

I was wondering when the "Swiss = Swiss Made, nuff said" crowd would start chiming

in. LOL. No one questions the quality of the Asian Invictas. They are great. However, it is wrong to lie and say they are Swiss Made. With 20K + members feelings on this issue are bound to vary wildly. Some don't care and for others it means they will never buy another Invicta. Regardless where you come down on this issue I'd still be honored to share beer with any WG member if I ever get the opportunity. Do the Reserve models marked Swiss have movements assembled in Asia/China? If so, whats to say those Reserve models are not 100% made in China? Are they going to continue to claim the Reserve line is All Swiss Made? D __________________ Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c) DIAMANTE View Public Profile Send a private message to DIAMANTE Find all posts by DIAMANTE Add DIAMANTE to Your Contacts #615 Today, 06:17 AM

CHRONOKEN

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,646

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He can call it marketing, or what ever he wants, but the bottom line, is that it's still done with the intention to deceive the public, for profit gain. CHRONOKEN

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alpha1603 Senior Member Senior Geek

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50mm&up Senior Member True WatchGeek

Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Braintee, MA. Posts: 11,462 Real Name: Rick

Quote: Originally Posted by DIAMANTE I was wondering when the "Swiss = Swiss Made, nuff said" crowd would start chiming in. LOL. No one questions the quality of the Asian Invictas. They are great. However, it is wrong to lie and say they are Swiss Made. Do the Reserve models marked Swiss have movements assembled in Asia/China?

If so, whats to say those Reserve models are not 100% made in China? Are they going to continue to claim the Reserve line is All Swiss Made? D From what i've read in this thread alone, there appears to be a "grey" area in the terms swiss made/swiss and it seems they can put it on certain watches legally and in effect, not be lying. I don't think Eyal or anyone at Invicta has straight out lied to us. They are only following the guidelines that allows them to put swiss on a watch. And if they allow them to put swiss made on the dial, even better. Maybe the guidelines need to be changed so that its 100% swiss, 100% of the time to put swiss made on the dial. Then watch everyone complain about the prices! lol. __________________

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DIAMANTE Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,797

Quote: Originally Posted by 50mm&up From what i've read in this thread alone, there appears to be a "grey" area in the terms swiss made/swiss and it seems they can put it on certain watches legally and in effect, not be lying. I don't think Eyal or anyone at Invicta has straight out lied to us. They are only following the guidelines that allows them to put swiss on a watch. And if they allow them to put swiss made on the dial, even better. Maybe the guidelines need

to be changed so that its 100% swiss, 100% of the time to put swiss made on the dial. Then watch everyone complain about the prices! lol. I know there is a grey area. It is not illegal to put Swiss on a Chinese made watch. There is a hole there and Invicta (and others) have jumped through it. I don't fault them at all for that. I do think they straight out lied to us. They said Invicta's marked Swiss had Swiss Made movements in them and riduculed folks for questioning them on it. I was editing my previous post when you quoted. I added - that regardless of where you stand on this issue I would still be honored to share a beer with any WG member. You are a respected member of the forum so I'd love to hear your thoughts as to the Reserve line using Asian movements. Do you think they should still claim the Reserve line is Swiss Made? D __________________ Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c) DIAMANTE View Public Profile Send a private message to DIAMANTE Find all posts by DIAMANTE Add DIAMANTE to Your Contacts #619 Today, 06:39 AM

50mm&up Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote: Originally Posted by DIAMANTE

Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Braintee, MA. Posts: 11,462 Real Name: Rick

I know there is a grey area. It is not illegal to put Swiss on a Chinese made watch. There is a hole there and Invicta (and others) have jumped through it. I don't fault them at all for that. I do think they straight out lied to us. They said Invicta's marked Swiss had Swiss Made movements in them and riduculed folks for questioning them on it. I was editing my previous post when you quoted. I added - that regardless of where you stand on this issue I would still be honored to share a beer with any WG member. You are a respected member of the forum so I'd love to hear your thoughts as to the Reserve line using Asian movements. Do you think they should still claim the Reserve line is Swiss Made? D I agree, i'd meet anyone here for a beer, anytime! If the Reserve line is found to have Asian movts. (have they?) and they claim to be swiss made, thats a problem. Not for me though, i'm not gonna get my panties in a bunch over a watch. Plain and simple. All my Reserve pieces run fine and my non-Reserve pieces as well. Someone else will have to carry on the Crusade. I hope everyone enjoys their day! __________________

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Jamesmbb Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 182

Invicta CS said they are not aware of the problem. Jamesmbb View Public Profile Send a private message to Jamesmbb Find all posts by Jamesmbb Add Jamesmbb to Your Contacts #621 Today, 06:44 AM

Gary J Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Ga. Posts: 909 Real Name: Gary

Nothing is as it seems sometimes. If you like the watch, and it's got a good movement and the price was right. Then you have a great deal. Enjoy. Swiss and Swiss made always seems to be a catch phrase to me. __________________

Wherever you go, no matter what the weather, always bring your own sunshine. Gary J

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nhwoods

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Seacoast of NH Posts: 2,456 Real Name: Greg

Senior Member Super Geek

What would everybody do if there was no forum to complain to and no internet to research anything. You would buy the watch, enjoy the watch and not worry about it. __________________

GREG - GO SOX nhwoods View Public Profile Send a private message to nhwoods Send email to nhwoods Visit nhwoods's homepage! Find all posts by nhwoods Add nhwoods to Your Contacts #623 Today, 06:51 AM

jackson Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 122

Quote: Originally Posted by timeman Excellent questions. Hopeful Eyal will answer but don't hold your breath. Thank you timeman, I don't take credit for these questions. Our fellow Watchgeeks, including you, are responsible for their formulation. Babydoc's contributions, unheralded as they are, have been particularly astute and original. What I will take credit for is parsing Eyal's statements. Mods if you feel you must delete this post, so be it, but leave the thread open. Eyal can't even admit that he alone is ultimately responsible for the decision to engage in this labeling practice, not his team. His use of the past tense "was" is misleading. Dear reader would be forgiven for believing that Eyal is stating Invicta no longer uses the label "Swiss" on the dial of Asian product when in fact these chimeras are being hawked on the Shop this very minute. His primer on "Swiss Made" was totally off point as were the various strawmen he erected and set fire to in his self-serving closing paragraphs (the dread Swiss Federation, impossible standards, monopolies, oh my!). And not one word about meeting the only standard germane to this discussion, that provided by U.S. Customs law. To their mutual enrichment and at the expense of the watch-buying public, over a number of years Invicta and the Shop have worked together to cultivate in the public mind the impression that "Swiss" labeled Invictas are "Swiss Made" as that hallmark of quality has been defined by the Swiss Federation. The harm in that, as many ask, is the difference in value between the watches the public thought they payed for and the watches they actually received. There is solid anecdotal evidence in this thread of unhappy buyers who now feel they were deliberately mislead and grossly overcharged for deceptively labeled Asian product by hundreds of dollars. Given the enormous volume of sales they generate, it is conceivable that Invicta and the Shop have unjustly enriched themselves to the tune of millions of dollars at our expense. I like to think there is some enterprising rainmaker at Dewey Cheatham & Howe trying to certify a class action. This said, legal remedies are uncertain and years in the making, so what can be done now? I can think of two things. First, try to make the Shop take these purchases back--you did not get what you payed for. Second, stop buying from Invicta and the Shop until they get the message. I swear you could read Eyal's statement and conclude he is saying "Swiss Made"="Swiss"="Swiss Movement"="Swiss Component"="Chinese". Clearly for Invicta's and the Shop's purposes, China is Switzerland. But the well documented practice of equating "Swiss" and "Swiss Made" on Asian product just by itself is a

corruption of language, of standards (it is hard to give credence to Eyal's "everybodydoes-it defense" when he doesn't give even one example of someone else within the industry "doing it"), and an abuse of our trust. jackson View Public Profile Send a private message to jackson Find all posts by jackson Add jackson to Your Contacts #624 Today, 06:54 AM Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: New Orleans, LA Posts: 182

Jamesmbb Senior Member Senior Geek

This problem will have to be solved in court. Jamesmbb View Public Profile Send a private message to Jamesmbb Find all posts by Jamesmbb Add Jamesmbb to Your Contacts #625 Today, 07:05 AM

strutn45 Senior Member True WatchGeek

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: "Da Swamp" LA. Posts: 9,047 Real Name: John "WHO DAT"

Quote: Originally Posted by nhwoods What would everybody do if there was no forum to complain to and no internet to research anything. You would buy the watch, enjoy the watch and not worry about it. Exactly, too many important things to complain about...OIL SPILL!

__________________

"WE DAT"

X-James Member Member Geek

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 38

I wonder if on the outer box, not the actual watch box or the outer outer cardboard box but the outer box of the packaging of the watch box what that little gold label that is about 1/8"x1/4" and oval in shape that says "Made In" actually says on the watches in question and even on the "Swiss Made" ones. That could be the truth in packaging and manufacturing and might supersede the dial face concerning the importation rules. Anybody have any of those outer boxes of those watches in question to look at and post back about? X-James View Public Profile Send a private message to X-James Find all posts by X-James Add X-James to Your Contacts #627 Today, 07:12 AM

gman66

Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Citrus Heights, CA Posts: 792 Real Name: Gary

Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by strutn45 Exactly, too many important things to complain about...OIL SPILL! You said it John! __________________ Bullwinkle: "Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!" gman66 View Public Profile Send a private message to gman66 Find all posts by gman66 Add gman66 to Your Contacts #628 Today, 07:21 AM

bugduck

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Eastern VA. Blue Ridge MTNS. Posts: 2,562 Real Name: Lynn

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote: Originally Posted by strutn45 Exactly, too many important things to complain about...OIL SPILL!

Well Said John !

!!!!

bugduck View Public Profile Send a private message to bugduck Send email to bugduck Find all posts by bugduck Add bugduck to Your Contacts #629 Today, 07:30 AM

emathieu

Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA but my heart is still in NOLA Posts: 1,274 Real Name: Eric.

Senior Member Super Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by strutn45 Exactly, too many important things to complain about...OIL SPILL! The oil spill is definitely something to complain about, and believe me, there are many people complaining about it on environmental forums and other forums all over the internet. But, this is a watch manufacturing related issue, and it can still be discussed as well, especially on a watch forum. I definitely don't think that this issue is as large as the oil spill, but it is still serious to those who feel as though they have been the victim of a deceptive labeling practice. __________________ Eric. Last edited by emathieu; Today at 07:33 AM. Reason: typo

emathieu View Public Profile Send a private message to emathieu Find all posts by emathieu Add emathieu to Your Contacts #630 Today, 07:44 AM

bugduck

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Eastern VA. Blue Ridge MTNS. Posts: 2,562 Real Name: Lynn

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

[quote=DIAMANTE;1648549]I was wondering when the "Swiss = Swiss Made, nuff said" crowd would start chiming in. LOL. So the "Common Sense" crowd is a Nuff Said Crowd? This has been talked many times before. Eyal's Answer is on the Money. Invicta's Lables Comply with US Laws. NO ONE HAS BEEN LIED TO ! SO We are Called NUFF SAID CROWD ?, I think those who COMPLAIN on this Issue are of an "IGNORANT CROWD" ! BITE the People who bring us High Quality Watches at an Affordable Price? Nice Going ! bugduck View Public Profile Send a private message to bugduck Send email to bugduck Find all posts by bugduck Add bugduck to Your Contacts #631 Today, 07:52 AM

Gencoupe10 Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Staten Island, New York Posts: 236 Real Name: Eddie B.

Thats like buying a Ford Mustang GT 5.0 ,and opening up the hood and there it is a 4 cylinder Kia engine....... Gencoupe10 View Public Profile Send a private message to Gencoupe10 Send email to Gencoupe10 Find all posts by Gencoupe10 Add Gencoupe10 to Your Contacts #632 Today, 07:56 AM

silversurfer Junior Member New Geek

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 8

And not one word about meeting the only standard germane to this discussion, that provided by U.S. Customs law. To their mutual enrichment and at the expense of the watch-buying public, over a number of years Invicta and the Shop have worked together to cultivate in the public mind the impression that "Swiss" labeled Invictas are "Swiss Made" as that hallmark of quality has been defined by the Swiss Federation. The harm in that, as many ask, is the difference in value between the watches the public thought they payed for and the watches they actually received. There is solid anecdotal evidence in this thread of unhappy buyers who now feel they were deliberately mislead and grossly overcharged for deceptively labeled Asian product by hundreds of dollars. Given the enormous volume of sales they generate, it is conceivable that Invicta and the Shop have unjustly enriched themselves to the tune of millions of dollars at our expense. I like to think there is some enterprising rainmaker at Dewey Cheatham & Howe trying to certify a class action. This said, legal remedies are uncertain and years in the making, so what can be done now? I can think of two things. First, try to make the Shop take these purchases back--you did not get what you payed for. Second, stop buying from Invicta and the Shop until they get the message. I swear you could read Eyal's statement and conclude he is saying "Swiss Made"="Swiss"="Swiss Movement"="Swiss Component"="Chinese". Clearly for Invicta's and the Shop's purposes, China is Switzerland. But the well documented practice of equating "Swiss" and "Swiss Made" on Asian product just by itself is a corruption of language, of standards (it is hard to give credence to Eyal's "everybodydoes-it defense" when he doesn't give even one example of someone else within the industry "doing it"), and an abuse of our trust. I feel you Jackson, Sandman, Diamante, and timeman. My favorite watch in my small collection of 10 is the 4619 Pro Diver with Sapphire, 300m, 43.5mm case, and "SWISS MADE". I would be very disappointed in my favorite watch, that I have told several people, when they asked, -"Is that a Breitling?.....No, it's a Selita SW200 Invicta Swiss Automatic" BANG !!! Was I lying? Prevaricating? Exaggerating? Obfuscating? It's really embarrassing, when you don't even KNOW if you're telling the truth or not. I thought I was, but now, I'm not so sure. My first foray into online watch buying was with Wohler, and they made the same Swiss claims, but after I bought, and did much digging, I learned they have a Chinese automatic movement. They're nice looking watches, and I probably would have bought them anyway, if they had told the Truth up front. I'll never buy another Wohler.....not because they're bad watches.....they're excellent value. But, I can't get over the mistrust, and misleading. It's funny that I coincidentally have 3 atty friends, all working at different firms, whose names are Dewey, Cheatham, and Steele. LOL I tell them they should open up their own

firm....slogan, "With a name like that, we have to prove our honesty one client at a time"..;>D "Swiss Made = Swiss = Swiss Movement = Swiss component = Chinese"........priceless. silversurfer View Public Profile Send a private message to silversurfer Find all posts by silversurfer Add silversurfer to Your Contacts #633 Today, 08:04 AM

CurrentTime

Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Thomasville, NC Posts: 5,916 Real Name: -Rick-

Senior Member True WatchGeek

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with how Invicta conducts buiness . . . as a marketing company they are doing very well. Once the consumer is educated as to how a company does business . . . it is up to that consumer to decide if they choose to buy the product or not. If the consumer continues to buy the product . . . then all that follows is the responsibility of the consumer (you knew before you bought it). If ongoing (newish) issues arise that further upset consumers, then it's YOUR responsibility to expect "the unexpected". If "the unexpected" is something that a consumer wishes not to experience during their purchasing process . . . then stop buying the product. I feel that I am fully educated when buying Invicta products (as well as many other brands) and it's totally up to me if I decide to buy . . . OR NOT. To discount ALL that follows a watch purchase as something "separate" from that watch purchase is not living in reality. The collective experience of all WGs members (and the public in general) are valid examples of Invicta ownership. To discount another person's experience is to NOT be living in reality.

My continue complaining DOES NOTHING TO CHANGE ANYTHING. However, my wallet changes everything for me. I have no problem with the way Invicta does business. I am simply not affected by it anymore. I accept that "this" is the way it is, and buy my watches accordingly. I have discovered many many brands in which I simply buy a watch and enjoy it. No BS, no complaining, and no surprises. It's been quite enjoyable. __________________ VISIT MY WATCH PHOTO

GALLERY CurrentTime View Public Profile Send a private message to CurrentTime Find all posts by CurrentTime Add CurrentTime to Your Contacts #634 Today, 08:05 AM

RenatoDiamond Senior Member True WatchGeek

Thanks for chiming in Eyal, great points. __________________

Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: California Posts: 17,614 Real Name: Gene

RenatoDiamond RenatoDiamond View Public Profile Send a private message to RenatoDiamond Send email to RenatoDiamond Find all posts by RenatoDiamond Add RenatoDiamond to Your Contacts #635 Today, 08:13 AM

mjd

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: SF transplant to Sacramento, CA Posts: 221

Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by jackson Thank you timeman, I don't take credit for these questions. Our fellow Watchgeeks, including you, are responsible for their formulation. Babydoc's contributions, unheralded as they are, have been particularly astute and original. What I will take credit for is parsing Eyal's statements. Mods if you feel you must delete this post, so be it, but leave the thread open. Eyal can't even admit that he alone is ultimately responsible for the decision to engage in this labeling practice, not his team. His use of the past tense "was" is misleading. Dear reader would be forgiven for believing that Eyal is stating Invicta no longer uses the label "Swiss" on the dial of Asian product when in fact these chimeras are being hawked on the Shop this very minute. His primer on "Swiss Made" was totally off point as were the various strawmen he erected and set fire to in his self-serving closing paragraphs (the dread Swiss Federation, impossible standards, monopolies, oh my!). And not one word about meeting the only standard germane to this discussion, that provided by U.S. Customs law. To their mutual enrichment and at the expense of the watch-buying public, over a number of years Invicta and the Shop have worked together to cultivate in the public mind the impression that "Swiss" labeled Invictas are "Swiss Made" as that hallmark of quality has been defined by the Swiss Federation. The harm in that, as many ask, is the difference in value between the watches the public thought they payed for and the

watches they actually received. There is solid anecdotal evidence in this thread of unhappy buyers who now feel they were deliberately mislead and grossly overcharged for deceptively labeled Asian product by hundreds of dollars. Given the enormous volume of sales they generate, it is conceivable that Invicta and the Shop have unjustly enriched themselves to the tune of millions of dollars at our expense. I like to think there is some enterprising rainmaker at Dewey Cheatham & Howe trying to certify a class action. This said, legal remedies are uncertain and years in the making, so what can be done now? I can think of two things. First, try to make the Shop take these purchases back--you did not get what you payed for. Second, stop buying from Invicta and the Shop until they get the message. I swear you could read Eyal's statement and conclude he is saying "Swiss Made"="Swiss"="Swiss Movement"="Swiss Component"="Chinese". Clearly for Invicta's and the Shop's purposes, China is Switzerland. But the well documented practice of equating "Swiss" and "Swiss Made" on Asian product just by itself is a corruption of language, of standards (it is hard to give credence to Eyal's "everybodydoes-it defense" when he doesn't give even one example of someone else within the industry "doing it"), and an abuse of our trust. thank you. this is what i got out of post #401 as well. mr. lalo may sleep soundly at night, regardless; i suspect he spends a lot of time looking back over his shoulders for the long arm of the law. mjd View Public Profile Send a private message to mjd Send email to mjd Find all posts by mjd Add mjd to Your Contacts #636 Today, 08:23 AM

strutn45 Senior Member True WatchGeek

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: "Da Swamp" LA. Posts: 9,047 Real Name: John "WHO DAT"

Quote: Originally Posted by mjd thank you. this is what i got out of post #401 as well. mr. lalo may sleep soundly at

night, regardless; i suspect he spends a lot of time looking back over his shoulders for the long arm of the law. I doubt that seriously. __________________

"WE DAT" strutn45 View Public Profile Send a private message to strutn45 Send email to strutn45 Find all posts by strutn45 Add strutn45 to Your Contacts #637 Today, 08:31 AM

X-James Member Member Geek

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 38

Since Eyal stated that all the other companies do the same thing he is doing I wonder how he will be able to stand in a room with David Mermelstein, Larry Magen, Daniel Mink, Wing Liang and the other ShopNBC watch vendors and be able to squarely look them in the face and still now have there respect after his accusations that they also misrepresent there watches to sell them and make money. Eyal are you telling us that all the watches vendors on ShopNBC are doing the same thing you are doing? X-James View Public Profile

Send a private message to X-James Find all posts by X-James Add X-James to Your Contacts #638 Today, 08:35 AM

jackson Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 122

From one newcomer to another silversurfer, welcome aboard. I don't believe anyone as of yet has found any ironclad evidence that Invictas marked "Swiss Made" are anything but "Swiss Made" as that term is commonly understood (by the average informed Watchgeek). Given the numbers of merely "Swiss" labeled Invicta quartz watches which members have opened up and discovered to have Chinese assembled and/or made movements inside, some members suspect that Invicta Reserve line quartz models marked "Swiss Made" on the dial may be of Asian origin as well, but to the best of my knowledge no one has presented evidence confirming this suspicion. In any event, this dodge seems to apply only to quartz watches without exhibition casebacks, so keep wearing that auto Pro Diver proudly. But keep a weather eye out, okay? Quote: Originally Posted by silversurfer I feel you Jackson, Sandman, Diamante, and timeman. My favorite watch in my small collection of 10 is the 4619 Pro Diver with Sapphire, 300m, 43.5mm case, and "SWISS MADE". I would be very disappointed in my favorite watch, that I have told several people, when they asked, -"Is that a Breitling?.....No, it's a Selita SW200 Invicta Swiss Automatic" BANG !!! Was I lying? Prevaricating? Exaggerating? Obfuscating? It's really embarrassing, when you don't even KNOW if you're telling the truth or not. I thought I was, but now, I'm not so sure. My first foray into online watch buying was with Wohler, and they made the same Swiss claims, but after I bought, and did much digging, I learned they have a Chinese automatic movement. They're nice looking watches, and I probably would have bought them anyway, if they had told the Truth up front. I'll never buy another Wohler.....not because they're bad watches.....they're excellent value. But, I can't get over the mistrust, and misleading. It's funny that I coincidentally have 3 atty friends, all working at different firms, whose names are Dewey, Cheatham, and Steele. LOL I tell them they should open up their own firm....slogan, "With a name like that, we have to prove our honesty one client at a

time"..;>D "Swiss Made = Swiss = Swiss Movement = Swiss component = Chinese"........priceless. Last edited by jackson; Today at 09:06 AM. Reason: Paranthetical qualification added. jackson View Public Profile Send a private message to jackson Find all posts by jackson Add jackson to Your Contacts #639 Today, 08:36 AM

2010gt Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Ky Posts: 1,153 Real Name: Steve

The box is made in China, or it could really be a Swiss Parts box...IDK? __________________

2010gt View Public Profile Send a private message to 2010gt Send email to 2010gt Find all posts by 2010gt Add 2010gt to Your Contacts #640 Today, 08:36 AM

kurt Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 198 Real Name: Kurt

Quote: Originally Posted by samuelrz Swiss Made means 51% per se. Why aren't you guys complaining about the other 49%??? Stop buying Invicta and let this thread die please. If this thread upsets you why continue to read and post? Perhaps others find it interesting. kurt View Public Profile Send a private message to kurt Find all posts by kurt Add kurt to Your Contacts #641 Today, 08:40 AM

kurt Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 198 Real Name: Kurt

Quote: Originally Posted by jackson In the case of textiles, "USA made" encompasses little known American states like...Guam. Guam is not a state of the US. It is a US territory. Big difference. __________________

kurt View Public Profile Send a private message to kurt Find all posts by kurt Add kurt to Your Contacts #642 Today, 08:43 AM

CharlieB Senior Member True WatchGeek

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: On the Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,002 Real Name: Charlie

Quote: Originally Posted by rhickey It's also interesting to note that of the current vendors on SNBC, only Invicta touts Swiss made product. Wing, Larry and Daniel have never made that a selling point because they're honest about it. Even Daniel, who's creditability has been questioned in the past, has never passed off his watches as Swiss made. Yes he has. He said on several occasions that his watches were technically Swiss Made, but because they were not 100% Swiss Made he didn't put Swiss Made on the watches. I'm sure some geeks recall that tall tale. I think few geeks bought into it. __________________

The Celebration's Coming.............. It's Back To Back Time Again Baby!!! CharlieB View Public Profile Send a private message to CharlieB Find all posts by CharlieB Add CharlieB to Your Contacts #643 Today, 08:46 AM

MREXE Senior Member Super Geek

"swiss parts box" lmao

Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: colorado Posts: 1,012

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bluloo Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 902 Real Name: Louis

Quote: Originally Posted by sandman20 I also find it hard to believe so many WG's don't have an issue with this. I think that at least some of us may not have a real issue because we already understood the somewhat murky nature of the "Swiss" moniker and that it didn't mean what many apparently thought it meant - regardless of marketing/sales language. Of course I don't know what others think but that's what I suspect, based on prior discussions here and there. bluloo View Public Profile Send a private message to bluloo Find all posts by bluloo Add bluloo to Your Contacts #645 Today, 08:53 AM

X-James Member Member Geek

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 38

Now them Chinese boxes must be super duperly cheap to be able to have them made in China and then boxed and sent to Switzerland to have the Swiss Made Reserve watches put in them and then to the United States to be sold or possibly the boxes could be made allot closer to where the watch is assembled and ... Eyal are all your boxes made in China? I know that some of my Chinese/Asian made Pro Divers say the same thing on the box because they are assembled in Asia/China as well. X-James View Public Profile Send a private message to X-James Find all posts by X-James Add X-James to Your Contacts #646 Today, 08:54 AM

CharlieB

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: On the Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,002 Real Name: Charlie

Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote: Originally Posted by nycruza Therefore, a watch that meets the criteria above with a movement from ANYWHERE may be labeled "Swiss Made". Jim has always said that a Swiss made watch must have a Swiss movement encased within it. I've heard that in his definition every time. __________________

CharlieB

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: On the Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,002 Real Name: Charlie

Senior Member True WatchGeek

wrong or even that I thought might be wrong. If anyone doubts the above, use the search tool on this site. In the 26 months that this site has been active, I have stated exactly the same thing that I have said on air. That happens to be 16 months longer than I have been working for Invicta. As a matter of fact, for those that have been watching the shows on SNBC, you will note that exactly what I have said here on the subject is exactly what has been said on the shows for the last 6 years. Which just happens to be 5 years and 2 months longer than I have been working for Invicta. Again, the information that I presented was what I thought to be correct and what had been communicated to me. If anyone here feels misled by me, then you have my apologies. I can only present to you that which I think is true. For those that wish to continue with the attacks, I am glad that I have spent a few thousand of hours of my life to give you the platform to do so. There is no question in my mind that the above is 100% true. __________________

bluloo Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 902 Real Name: Louis

Hey, Who wants to get together and start a watch company? We'll call it "Swiss Made". Our tag line can be "Swiss Made. Our name is on every product." Or how about, "Swiss Made. You'll swear it's Swiss!*

*But it's not."

bluloo View Public Profile Send a private message to bluloo Find all posts by bluloo Add bluloo to Your Contacts #649 Today, 09:08 AM

bluloo Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 902 Real Name: Louis

Quote: Originally Posted by DIAMANTE Do the Reserve models marked Swiss have Asian assembled movements? I can tell you that mine does. bluloo View Public Profile Send a private message to bluloo Find all posts by bluloo Add bluloo to Your Contacts #650 Today, 09:11 AM Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 540

bigwatchguy66 Senior Member Veteran Geek

what I have said here on the subject is exactly what has been said on the shows for the last 6 years. Which just happens to be 5 years and 2 months longer than I have been working for Invicta. Again, the information that I presented was what I thought to be correct and what had been communicated to me. If anyone here feels misled by me, then you have my apologies. I can only present to you that which I think is true. For those that wish to continue with the attacks, I am glad that I have spent a few thousand of hours of my life to give you the platform to do so. If you were sold that bill of goods and simply conveyed that message--that's too bad Michael, in all sincerity. As far as attacks on Invicta---I don't feel guilty about the hrs put into this website to build it---compared to the thousands and thousands of dollars spent--just by the geeks alone--for watches we were all led to believe were "Swiss Made." Since we are stuck with these chinese watches--the least we can do is vent our frustration---I am therefore grateful to have this platform to do it--thank you Michael.

jackson Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 122

Quote: Originally Posted by kurt Guam is not a state of the US. It is a US territory. Big difference. Exactly, Guam, where U.S. federal workplace and minimum wage requirements needn't be adhered to if I recall correctly. jackson View Public Profile Send a private message to jackson Find all posts by jackson Add jackson to Your Contacts #652 Today, 09:16 AM

trav Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 678

Quote: RE: Question au sujet d'une catĂŠgorie de montre.? From: Montres Claude Meylan (claudemeylan@vtxnet.ch" false Sent: Tue 5/26/09 3:07 AM Dear Mr. xxxxx, You are right, in the beginning of Invicta watches; we made some of the watches he sold. I checked and we work together since 2002 to 2005 and after he does it himself somewhere else. In the USA you can see some of our watches in Stoneham or in Spring Lake or Cambridge. If you are interesting, I will send you the exact address. By the way, if you want I can also send you one of our catalogues. Let me know your address. I hope having answered your questions and we thank you for your interest and best regards Montres Claude Meylan SA Carol He refers to EL.Apparently this was the actual manufacturer of some "Swiss Made" Invicta watches during this time period.Now it seems EL is using some other lower tier manufacturer to produce these. Gut feeling tells me the "Swiss dials were really intended to be used by his "Swiss" manufacturer but for some reason the deal fell through leaving him no option other than throwing them away than to have them used in either Florida or a Chinese/Asian factory. EL cannot admit to this if it were true,well he could but that would be admitting he has no Swiss factory and is reliant on third parties to produce the higher level watches,in effect blowing his cover.Better to give us a song and dance because we indulge in the Kool-Aid anyway and this will blow over fast. I honestly don't believe there is any deception on the part of JS or MD as they are salesmen and i don't believe they are directly privy to the contracts of Invicta and its suppliers.Sure they know the score in general but the intricate details are probably only known to EL and a very select few.Like any good scam,charade,etc the less people that know about it the better. trav View Public Profile Find all posts by trav Add trav to Your Contacts

#653 Today, 10:26 AM

huitball Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 656 Real Name: George

Quote: Originally Posted by bigwatchguy66 If you were sold that bill of goods and simply conveyed that message--that's too bad Michael, in all sincerity. As far as attacks on Invicta---I don't feel guilty about the hrs put into this website to build it---compared to the thousands and thousands of dollars spent--just by the geeks alone--for watches we were all led to believe were "Swiss Made." Since we are stuck with these chinese watches--the least we can do is vent our frustration---I am therefore grateful to have this platform to do it--thank you Michael. Great points! I concur 100%. huitball View Public Profile Send a private message to huitball Find all posts by huitball Add huitball to Your Contacts #654 Today, 11:20 AM

hitch Senior Member Senior Geek

Silversurfer wrote about: Quote: ...Dewey, Cheatham, and Steele. Any relation to Dewey, Cheatham and Howe? LOL hitch

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 243

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rudayo Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 307

Quote: Originally Posted by Avery Well now that that has been explained in detail,Why do I get the vibe that many people feel the Asian versions are of inferior quality? Are there quantifiable differences in the same movement manufactured in two different countries? Although it sounds like this, many would say they aren't. I myself would not say they are inferior, but less expesive. Besides, with all the problems over the past few months of "Swiss Made" (as it says on the dial) OTV, TTVs, etc., you could almost argue the Asian made are actually better. But that's just a select few examples. Other Swiss Made (as it says on the dial) pieces not rushed to market or made in super large quantities haven't had such visible issues. But this is an another topic altogether. rudayo View Public Profile Send a private message to rudayo Find all posts by rudayo Add rudayo to Your Contacts #656 Today, 11:34 AM

GeorgeTheWatchGuy

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: OHIO Posts: 8,023

WatchGeeks Moderator True WatchGeek

Quote: Originally Posted by meijin This is going to be my only comment on this subject... Regardless of what anyone on this site says, the information that I provided regarding the usage of "Swiss" and "Swiss Made" was information that I fully believed to be accurate and correct as well as information that was passed to me. I have, in the past, gone out of my way to ensure that I only imparted accurate information to Invicta and SNBC customers. Personal attacks as well as attacks against my honesty, character and integrity aside, I have never once passed along information that I knew to be wrong or even that I thought might be wrong. If anyone doubts the above, use the search tool on this site. In the 26 months that this site has been active, I have stated exactly the same thing that I have said on air. That happens to be 16 months longer than I have been working for Invicta. As a matter of fact, for those that have been watching the shows on SNBC, you will note that exactly what I have said here on the subject is exactly what has been said on the shows for the last 6 years. Which just happens to be 5 years and 2 months longer than I have been working for Invicta. Again, the information that I presented was what I thought to be correct and what had been communicated to me. If anyone here feels misled by me, then you have my apologies. I can only present to you that which I think is true. For those that wish to continue with the attacks, I am glad that I have spent a few thousand of hours of my life to give you the platform to do so.

Well said Mike... Thank you for your clarification in this matter... I for one after knowing you for many years, knew that this had to be the case... It is just a shame that you had to post this explanation here in your own forum to defend yourself... __________________

DIAMANTE Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,797

Quote: Originally Posted by rudayo Although it sounds like this, many would say they aren't. I myself would not say they are inferior, but less expesive. Besides, with all the problems over the past few months of "Swiss Made" (as it says on the dial) OTV, TTVs, etc., you could almost argue the Asian made are actually better. But that's just a select few examples. Other Swiss Made (as it says on the dial) pieces not rushed to market or made in super large quantities haven't had such visible issues. But this is an another topic altogether. I agree with you. I think a strong argument can be made that the Asian Invictas are superior to the Swiss Made ones.

In my OP that started this I wrote the the Asian models were of equal of superior quality. My question, which still hasn't been answered is: Do the Invicta Reserve models marked Swiss have movements assembled in Asia? If so, does this mean that the whole Reserve model watch is made in Asia? Is Invicta going to stop claiming these Reserve models are Swiss Made? D __________________ Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c) DIAMANTE View Public Profile Send a private message to DIAMANTE Find all posts by DIAMANTE Add DIAMANTE to Your Contacts #658 Today, 11:37 AM

fstowell Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 142 Real Name: Fred

Quote: Originally Posted by Gary J Nothing is as it seems sometimes. If you like the watch, and it's got a good movement and the price was right. Then you have a great deal. Enjoy. Swiss and Swiss made always seems to be a catch phrase to me. If you thought it was a Swiss made watch when you bought it you probbly based your decision as to if it was priced right on that fact. To then find out that it is a Chinese made watch can lead you to believe that it was not priced right after all. I do not think that a Chinese made watch is worth the same money as a Swiss made watch. Because of this I feel it is important to know where it is made before I decide to buy it and expect to be told the truth by the business selling it to me. __________________

fstowell View Public Profile Send a private message to fstowell Send email to fstowell Find all posts by fstowell Add fstowell to Your Contacts #659 Today, 11:54 AM

TM Maker

Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,284 Real Name: Rob

Senior Member Super Geek

Bottom line please Guys (or can this be answered). Where were my Swiss Made pieces actually made (SAN III, Reserve Speedway XL, RD Quinotar Extreme)? I'm NOT here to bash the brand. I love the pieces but I'd just like some reassurance as to where they were made. That's all. TM Maker View Public Profile Send a private message to TM Maker Find all posts by TM Maker

Add TM Maker to Your Contacts #660 Today, 12:06 PM

bluloo Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 902 Real Name: Louis

Quote: Originally Posted by bluloo I can tell you that mine does. I would like to clarify and note that my Reserve SAS has a "Swiss Parts" movement. It has "Swiss" on the dial. It's my understanding that "Swiss Parts" means it's assembled in Asia, using some Asian and some Swiss components. bluloo View Public Profile Send a private message to bluloo Find all posts by bluloo Add bluloo to Your Contacts #661 Today, 12:09 PM

DIAMANTE Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,797

Quote: Originally Posted by bluloo I would like to clarify and note that my Reserve SAS has a "Swiss Parts" movement. It has "Swiss" on the dial.

It's my understanding that "Swiss Parts" means it's assembled in Asia, using some Asian and some Swiss components. There you go. Thanks for the info. It would be great if you could post some pics. So does this mean that the Reserve line is no longer Swiss Made? Perhaps the entire watch was produced 100% in China. Again, not an indictment as to the quality of the watch. I'm sure it is as good (probably better) than the Swiss Made version. Thanks for the clarification. D __________________ Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c) DIAMANTE View Public Profile Send a private message to DIAMANTE Find all posts by DIAMANTE Add DIAMANTE to Your Contacts #662 Today, 12:11 PM

GeorgeTheWatchGuy

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: OHIO Posts: 8,023

WatchGeeks Moderator True WatchGeek

Everyone this is the 3rd time I have requested that you post only questions you felt the need to be answered by Eyal or his team, for clarification... You speculations & evaluations are now done! Please do not force me to close this thread...This is my final

word on this... __________________

DIAMANTE Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,797

Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

word on this... I edited my post in case you were referring to my post. D __________________ Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c) DIAMANTE View Public Profile Send a private message to DIAMANTE Find all posts by DIAMANTE Add DIAMANTE to Your Contacts #664 Today, 12:20 PM

GeorgeTheWatchGuy

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: OHIO Posts: 8,023

WatchGeeks Moderator True WatchGeek

Quote: Originally Posted by DIAMANTE I edited my post in case you were referring to my post. D Not just yours.... I really am trying to keep this thread alive... __________________

X-James Member Member Geek

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 38

George it might be best to just close it. Eyal is not going to come back and answer any questions. If he answers one he will have to answer them all and that would expose him to the question of why he lied to the his friends about what they were purchasing. Seriously I dont think he will return and there will be no answers given to any questions that have been asked, might be best to just close it. X-James View Public Profile Send a private message to X-James

Find all posts by X-James Add X-James to Your Contacts #666 Today, 12:32 PM

LTCARMY

Join Date: May 2008 Location: Northern New Jersey Posts: 164 Real Name: Paul

Senior Member Senior Geek

I think it made made pretty clear Using Swiss Made on the watch means that the guidelines have been followed. Anything else is up in the air Am I missing something? LTCARMY View Public Profile Send a private message to LTCARMY Find all posts by LTCARMY Add LTCARMY to Your Contacts #667 Today, 01:03 PM

Chief68 WatchGeeks Moderator True WatchGeek

Quote:

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Staten Island New York Posts: 11,604 Real Name: Nick

Originally Posted by meijin This is going to be my only comment on this subject... Regardless of what anyone on this site says, the information that I provided regarding the usage of "Swiss" and "Swiss Made" was information that I fully believed to be accurate and correct as well as information that was passed to me. I have, in the past, gone out of my way to ensure that I only imparted accurate information to Invicta and SNBC customers. Personal attacks as well as attacks against my honesty, character and integrity aside, I have never once passed along information that I knew to be wrong or even that I thought might be wrong. If anyone doubts the above, use the search tool on this site. In the 26 months that this site has been active, I have stated exactly the same thing that I have said on air. That happens to be 16 months longer than I have been working for Invicta. As a matter of fact, for those that have been watching the shows on SNBC, you will note that exactly what I have said here on the subject is exactly what has been said on the shows for the last 6 years. Which just happens to be 5 years and 2 months longer than I have been working for Invicta. Again, the information that I presented was what I thought to be correct and what had been communicated to me. If anyone here feels misled by me, then you have my apologies. I can only present to you that which I think is true. For those that wish to continue with the attacks, I am glad that I have spent a few thousand of hours of my life to give you the platform to do so.

I consider myself to be a very good judge of character and that comes from many years of meeting different types of people in my field of work. I am just going to get right to the point Mike is my friend and I know he would never deceive anyone he is a GOOD person. The attacks on him personally on his own forum is wrong in so many ways and yet he still held his composure and posted the above message like the gentleman that he is. I am not going to get into this or go back and forth with anyone ,I will just say this - Mike has been with Invicta for around 11 month's now and to my knowledge these watches have been selling for alot longer than that so whatever comments Mike has made he believed them to be accurate or he would of never said it and that is the TRUTH.!!! __________________

NYPD Emergency Service Unit

Chief68 View Public Profile Send a private message to Chief68 Send email to Chief68 Visit Chief68's homepage! Find all posts by Chief68 Add Chief68 to Your Contacts #668 Today, 01:59 PM Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 848

Owlwatch Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

...You speculations & evaluations are now done! Please do not force me to close this thread... Not that I have a vote, but if I did...it would be to close!

I mean...what is to be said that has not already been said! Please give some consideration so that some folks can move on with their lives. Owlwatch View Public Profile Send a private message to Owlwatch Find all posts by Owlwatch Add Owlwatch to Your Contacts #669 Today, 02:01 PM

nycruza Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,352 Real Name: A.J.

AMEN to that, Nick! Quote: Originally Posted by Chief68

SANIII on the Rocks with a Twist of Lemon nycruza View Public Profile Send a private message to nycruza Find all posts by nycruza Add nycruza to Your Contacts #670 Today, 02:07 PM

GeorgeTheWatchGuy

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: OHIO Posts: 8,023

WatchGeeks Moderator True WatchGeek

Quote: Originally Posted by Owlwatch Not that I have a vote, but if I did...it would be to close! I mean...what is to be said that has not already been said! Please give some consideration so that some folks can move on with their lives.

I believe you are right this time! __________________

"There are Two Types of Pain in this World: The Temporary Pain of Discipline, or the Permanent Pain of Regret"... GTWG