Shadow Minister for Women

An Interview with Nicole Lawder MLA, Shadow Minister for Women

Rose Dixon-Campbell

CW: Discussions of Sexual Assault

Nicole Lawder has sat in the ACT Legislative Assembly since 2013 representing the electorate of Brindabella. Woroni sat down to discuss the ACT Liberals agenda to empower women and girls in the ACT.

Woroni: The theme for our upcoming issue of Woroni is ‘On the Brink’. I was wondering if, in the wake of Brittany Higgins and other parliamentary sex scandals, do you believe we are on the brink of enduring structural change to address this?

Look, I’m hopeful that we are. I think a lot of people have wanted those big changes for a long time but I think now public opinion has caught up with people working in the sector and you know you’ve got that rare moment of—where everything comes together. So I am really hopeful that it will mean positive structural change for the future because quite frankly this is something I have been talking about for a long time, since I was a young woman. We just haven’t been able to get that breakthrough change. There have been lots of little improvements which are great to celebrate, but not enough.

W: I’ve done some research on you and I know you are quite vocal about workplace sexual harassment and I am wondering if this is something that women in the Legislative Assembly face as well?

Look, I don’t think so – certainly not as an MLA I haven’t experienced any. Potentially that is also related to my age. You’re probably far less likely to harass someone who is nearly 60 than you might a young woman. On the same note I wouldn’t stand for it now, whereas when I was younger and less certain I might have not protested, thinking ‘what do I do? Did I do something to encourage that?’ you know all the things that now I wouldn’t think those things I would just be bam that’s inappropriate. So I think we are quite a progressive workplace in the Legislative Assembly itself but even to some degree I think the ACT may be a bit ahead of some jurisdictions. For example, we have had a female majority parliament – this parliament and also the one before. What does that tell you about how progressive the ACT is?

W: On that note, I did a bit of reading on the Women’s Caucus, founded by the Government. I was wondering why the Liberal Party was not invited to join that caucus?

We asked the same question. We have ideas and suggestions and experiences to share so in a way I wonder why they weren’t caucusing beforehand you know they already have quite a few women in Cabinet and their front bench Ministry – the majority of them are women as well. I think in the Greens it is equal men and women but I think Labor and Liberal are both majority female in their party rooms so it is nothing they could not have been doing before and I think if they had captured a broader voice – because obviously there are quite a few female Liberals elected. So we have the faith and the views and the input of all the women that we represent who deserve to be heard as well.

W: What advice would you have for a woman who feels discouraged right now to enter politics?

Politics is not the only way to make change in your community but it is one of the best ways to do it. I have always felt – it may be a bit of a clichéd term but, you have got to be inside the tent to help make change. There are lots of people who complain and they have every right to complain, but you’ve got to be prepared to do your bit to make change happen as well. I strongly believe that and through a range of ways you can do that but politics is certainly one of the strong ways that you can achieve real lasting change through legislation and then education campaigns and community initiatives. I think [politics] is a really good way to make change.

I do hear a bit about young women becoming discouraged from entering politics and I already spoke about being inside the tent but also there is never a better time than now if you think about it. There will never be a better time in someone’s life. There are always other competing priorities. So if you are the least bit interested in public and political life then just grab it with both hands rather than looking back in ten or twenty years thinking ‘oh I wish I’d given that a go’. Be part of the solution absolutely.

W: If you were to become a benevolent dictator of the ACT tomorrow, what is the initiative you would pass instantaneously to empower women and girls?

Partly fuelled by recent discussion, I would like to see a bit more work done around consent both legislatively but also in terms of community education campaigns. Some of them hit the mark and some of them don’t quite hit the mark. On the other hand, everyone learns in different ways so you can’t have a ‘one size fits all’, there will be some that really strike a chord with some people while other people just think ‘what the hell is that?’ and vice versa. So in the current climate about consent I think that is really important because it is going to take a while.

We have to start with young people especially and see that through and that has really made me think a lot more about my relationship with my grandchildren. You know you have that expectation that they will give you a kiss and a hug whether they really want to or not (laughs) and that is one of the first steps towards that autonomy over your own body and your own wishes. So I just really started re-evaluating some of those things in my own life.

W: You mentioned consent training and I guess something that has been really topical was the government’s milkshake consent ad, which they of course have revoked. Do you have any comment on that video? Do you agree with any of the criticisms?

I didn’t actually see it. I only heard about it, so I haven’t actually viewed the adverts themselves. From what I’ve read they weren’t very clear in their messaging – the milkshake one especially. I can’t give you a first-person critique because I did not see them but a lot of people have said that they did miss the mark. Whereas there is another that I have seen which would be a couple of years old now about offering someone a cup of tea. Have you seen that one?

W: No, I don’t think I have.

To paraphrase, it was along the lines of if I offer you a cup of tea and you say no I shouldn’t force a cup of tea down your throat. If you’re too drunk to say yes or no, then you don’t force a cup of tea down your throat – that sort of messaging. It is still using an analogy but it was quite simple and easy to understand.

W: So you favour analogies?

Yeah, it’s probably difficult to accurately show a physical relationship consent advert depending on exactly what you are doing.

W: My last question is about the Federal Government’s bill to merge the Family Court with the Federal Court. Again, it is something that has been criticised by a lot of people and I am wondering what comment you have to make on that as Shadow Minister for Women? Hmm. I haven’t given that a lot of analysis either because we have got a lot going on in our own jurisdiction with the recent sexual assault prevention and response task force etc that we are looking at. My colleague Elizabeth Lee has introduced a stealthing bill into the assembly so I guess my focus has been largely on what is happening in the local jurisdiction but it is a space that we will continue to look at. At this point it is not necessarily useful for me to comment on Federal Legislation.

W: Okay. Is there anything else you’d like to say regarding the ACT Liberals plan to empower women and girls in the ACT?

I think we have a lot of ideas. There are still more coming up that you will see us present in the Assembly. We are also playing a part to a lesser or greater degree in this sexual assault prevention and response task group, which has been very much touted as a tripartisan approach. I think there are improvements in what can be done to ensure that we have a voice and it is not just paying lip service to a tripartisan approach. We are really happy to give our support to that because it is so important to ensure that we have the right response to sexual assault and sexual violence, both in terms of community behaviour and expectation, in terms of the response of service providers and professionals in the field (including police) and also the right legislative response. We are absolutely supportive of that but I just hope that the government will continue to keep us involved and that they didn’t perhaps just use us to tout tripartisan support for it.

A final note from Nicole Lawder MLA: Amanda Vanstone is a previous Liberal Minister and I went to a conference that she spoke at several years ago and someone said to her “all these things about more women in politics, when will it be enough?” and she said “I’ll tell you when it’s enough, it’s when there are more useless women in positions of power as we currently have useless men” (laughs) and I have always remembered that and thought ‘yep that’s great’.

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