The Eternal Element of Time

Dadashri: Naturally and spontaneously. Just as the water of the Narmada river keeps flowing from there and meets the ocean of its own accord. In such a case, people use their intellect and wonder, ‘Who is taking it there? How does it know that the ocean is in that direction?’ It happens naturally and spontaneously. It certainly continues happening naturally and spontaneously. That is how one should view everything, this world. God Himself is involved in this, too. However, He is not an independent doer. Naturally and spontaneously, everyone is considered an evidentiary instrument. This might happen through the instrument of Time, whereas that might happen through the instrument of something else, this other thing might happen through the instrument of yet another thing; in this way, through the coming together of the evidentiary instruments, everything continues to happen.

Questioner: But the fact that we met You, is that also through an instrument?

Dadashri: Only [through] an instrument.

Questioner: But had we actually met before or not, would that be possible or not?

Dadashri: All those circumstances must certainly have come together. Whoever we come across in bodily form, that is not simply a chance encounter. They have been coming for infinite lifetimes. The circumstances keep changing. If you had come across those circumstances in the past [life], only then would you come across those circumstances today [in this life]. You come across those for whom a positive opinion has been formed, and you also come across those for whom a negative opinion has been formed. If a negative opinion has been formed, that circumstance will cause you pain and then leave, whereas if a positive opinion has been formed, then that circumstance will give you pleasure and then leave. To have a positive opinion is referred to as attachment (raag). To have a negative opinion is referred to as abhorrence (dwesh).

Of what use is something that looks attractive on the basis of Time? Based on Time, this rose is looking attractive today. Tomorrow, on the basis of Time, it will appear wilted. It is actually on the basis of Time that something appears attractive or unappealing. The authority of the Self (Swasatta) is not subject to Time. It is a different thing altogether. Everything that is dependent on Time is forgotten. It is worth Seeing only the attractiveness of the Self, of the Real form as the Self.

That Is the Inherent Nature of Time

Questioner: So Dada, is it really the case that everything should change because of Time? And when it becomes very old, should it collapse?

Dadashri: ‘Time’ makes everything very old. We had an enclosure behind the house (vaado) over here previously; when it became very outdated, then even its supporting pillars collapsed. You witnessed that, didn’t you?

Questioner: Yes, the supporting pillars in the middle had collapsed.

Dadashri: But in the Kathyavadi language [a dialect of Gujarati], it is called a vaado. These two pillars have fallen down, this one has become like this. Likewise, there are no clay tiles on the roof. How can this even be considered a vaado? They were very valuable when they were around. Now, these people have demolished them and have even built houses over them. That is how it is everywhere. What is new always becomes old. ‘Time’ is always wearing everything down, in its own way. Even gold gradually erodes. Similarly, even the scriptures wear away.

Time Also Causes the Extinction of the Lineage of the Gnanis

The inherent nature of Time is such that it makes one unaware (ajagrut) even where One has awakened awareness (jagruti). That is why ‘we’ are constantly cautioning, “Beware!”

Questioner: But does the jagruti not last once it is attained?

Dadashri: That jagruti will not go away. However, the current era of the time cycle is such that when it shows even an inkling of its potential [the force of the discharge karma], the awakened awareness will be reduced, that is how it is. The current era of the time cycle is very strange.

And at the same time, One has Akram Vignan, meaning that this is a Science that has been attained without exhausting all the karma. So, while exhausting the karma, you will have to bear some repercussions. It would not be problematic for me, as I actually do not have many karma remaining.

The lineage of the Gnanis carries on, but it continues to become extinct on account of Time. The inherent nature of Time is such that it is able to cause the extinction of each and every one. When a Gnani manifests, then a lineage comes about once again; Time extinguishes it. No one else has the strength to extinguish it or to destroy it.

Time From the Perspective of Scientists

Questioner: Time is also considered the fourth dimension. There’s length, height, width, and along with that, time has been placed as the fourth dimension.

Dadashri: Who has done this?

Questioner: Scientists have. Time is the fourth dimension.

Dadashri: Yes, of course, Time is definitely there! One can definitely not do without Time. The Time may be the same for everyone, but space is never the same, everyone’s space is different.

How was Time deduced? The answer is, this world is in motion, there is a constant change in one’s state. The amount of Time it takes for one Parmanu to cross another Parmanu has been referred to as samay.

Therefore, this Time is in the form of kaalanu (atoms of Time), it is in the form of atoms (anu). It is only when those atoms of Time come into a certain proportion that all those other things work, otherwise it does not help.

The Knowledge of the Eternal Elements Is the Subtlest of All

Questioner: We have understood the other eternal elements, but why haven’t we understood the eternal element of the Self?

Dadashri: Even the others have not been understood; in fact, they have only been understood superficially at present. It takes a long time to understand them in depth.

Questioner: Dada, what else needs to be understood about Time in depth? ‘Time’ means Time.

Dadashri: Oh! Actually, there are so many atoms of Time, this entire world is filled with the atoms of Time. In fact, this is all very profound; none of this can be understood. Moksha can be attained only by understanding it superficially. For what purpose do we need to understand it in depth? All you need to know is that water runs through a gutter. Thereafter, why do you need to know how deep the gutter is, how wide it is, how much of it has corroded, how much of it has eroded, and so on? Water comes from over here, and it goes from over there. If just this much is known, it is more than enough.

Questioner: So the Self is also just as easy to understand as Space, Time, inertia...

Dadashri: No, not a single one of them is easy [to understand]. The Self is very difficult [to understand], no one has understood the Self even in the slightest, not even as much as a strand of hair’s worth.

Questioner: But with Your grace, with the grace of the Gnani Purush, we have found You, so then it certainly is easy, isn’t it?

Dadashri: Yes, but here, only our mahatmas (those who have received Self-realization through Gnan vidhi) understand It. However, no one outside does. These ascetics and the like may wander around in the Himalayas or any other place, but they do not understand anything; it is all in vain. In fact, they will say, “God is the creator. God has created all of this, and God exists even in this wooden post.” That is what they say. If that is so, mortal one (mooah), how can we burn wood?

Time Flows in the Form of Atoms of Time

Questioner: It is said that Time is in the form of atoms, isn’t it?

Dadashri: Yes, there are atoms of Time.

Questioner: So are they referred to as Parmanu?

Dadashri: No, those atoms are different!

Questioner: So can these atoms [of Time] not be considered jada (inanimate)? Do atoms of Time not have a visible form (roop)? Are atoms of Time considered to be formless (aroopi)?

Dadashri: They are all formless, only the element of inanimate matter alone has form.

Questioner: Dada, you said that there are infinite atoms of Time; are those atoms like the atoms in physics?

Dadashri: Yes, but these atoms can be seen, whereas those atoms of Time cannot be seen.

Questioner: Is the smallest indivisible unit of Time (samay) a non-living entity (nishchetan chetan) or is it a living entity (chetan)?

Dadashri: It is a non-living entity and it is formless.

Questioner: Nevertheless, it has atoms of Time?

Dadashri: The atoms of Time are flowing in the form of atoms. ‘Time’ is in the form of atoms, which is why they can be recalled.

The Atoms of Time Are Only to the Extent of One Kalp...

Whatever Lord Krishna had said, that speech goes into Time and atoms of Time get bound. There are atoms of Time from that point in time. Similarly, whatever was spoken during the time of Lord Mahavir, during the time of Lord Rushabhdev, all of those atoms are present somewhere in this universe. If there is someone to recall them, then they will speak again. If one were to pull them together today, then the very same words would be expressed.

However, all of those energies, that art has been destroyed. Otherwise, people used to use that. If someone goes through the effort (sadhana) today, if someone carries out the practice, then they would be able to recall those atoms and listen to them once again.

Questioner: How would one be able to recall them?

Dadashri: There is no method to it. If scientists reach all the way there, then they can do so. But who can recall them? Those who are in the final grade, those who are at 360 degrees; no one else can recall those parmanu. However, in reality, they do exist.

Questioner: So Dada, what are they called? If they are able to recall Time?

Dadashri: They are not recalling Time. They are recalling what They [the Tirthankar Lords or Lord Krishna] had said. The atoms of Time are helpful in the sense that you can listen once again to what was said on that day. You can listen to them, but you need such energy to do so. I have not seen anyone with such energy in this era of the time cycle. Right now, I do not have such energy either.

Questioner: So from where can that energy be attained?

Dadashri: What is the purpose of attaining such an energy? You are getting so many ‘vegetables’, so why do you need that? Where would one end up if he attained such energy? He would learn to jump [from one point in time to another]. Then he would have to go to the species that jumps around! Have you seen the species that jumps around? No one except for monkeys are able to jump around, isn’t that right?

Our [worldly] science has not yet reached that far, to the inner Science. And this is not a feat for anyone besides those with absolute Knowledge (keval Gnan). It has stalled even for ‘us’; that is precisely where it has stalled.

Questioner: So would the parmanu of Hitler or Churchill still be in the air?

Dadashri: No. Their speech is certainly there, the atoms of the speech spoken at that time are certainly there.

All those atoms of Time are certainly moving about. It is when the six eras of the [current] time cycle come to an end that everything will be completely destroyed. Then everything will arise anew.

Questioner: Will all of that be destroyed?

Dadashri: Yes, the world is not going to get destroyed. People may say that the entire universe will be destroyed, but that does not happen. Would there ever be destruction of the world? Would eternal elements ever undergo destruction? Temporary things undergo destruction, hence, temporary states (avastha) undergo destruction.

Questioner: Within these atoms of Time, would the speech exist to the extent of one kalp (one complete revolution of the time cycle comprising 12 time periods, 6 of the ascending cycle and 6 of the descending cycle) or infinite kalp?

Dadashri: Of only one kalp, the rest get destroyed. The moment the kalp changes, it all gets destroyed. After a certain balance accumulates, then everything stops. Otherwise, there would be no end to this world, would there! It is to the extent of two chovisi (the succession of twenty-four Tirthankar Lords in the third and fourth era of each half-cycle of time); one is the Avsarpini chovisi (the succession of twenty-four Tirthankar Lords in the ascending half-cycle of time) and the other is the Utsarpini chovisi (the succession of twentyfour Tirthankar Lords in the descending half-cycle of time). There are forty-eight Tirthankar Lords during this time and thereafter everything that is encompassed within that [kalp] gets destroyed.

Time in the Real and the Relative Sense…

Questioner: What is a samay? The time between birth and death, is that considered one samay?

Dadashri: No, that is not just one samay. There are very many samay between birth and death; there may have even been two to four divorces in that duration. What is the meaning of samay? Samay means to turn the new into old and the old into new. Now do you want to know anything else about samay? This is what it means.

Questioner: This kaal that You refer to, the word kaal that You use, in that, say the tuber of a thought sprouts, a thought begins and then it comes to an end, are You referring to that period of time as kaal?

Dadashri: No, that period of time is considered very long.

Questioner: Then what are You referring to as kaal?

Dadashri: “This shirt is dirty,” by the time you try to say just this much, you have gone beyond kaal. Kaal keeps changing from one samay to the next (samay parinaamik).

Questioner: These rituals of the Kramik path [that are done for a set amount of time], are they within kaal or outside of kaal?

Dadashri: They are within the overt kaal. When a large amount of kaal, when an innumerable amount of kaal accumulates, that is when a ritual of the Kramik path (traditional step-by-step path of spiritual progress) takes place.

Questioner: The ritual of the Kramik path does take place, but it is indeed within the interval of samay, isn’t it? That ritual is dependent on samay, isn’t it?

Dadashri: All rituals of the Kramik path are dependent on samay. No original indestructible eternal element is dependent on samay.

Questioner: The ritual which is taking place is dependent on samay, and if one believes that there will be progress through that, then he will never be free, will he, Dada?

Dadashri: No, he will never become free. It is the pudgal alone that is dependent on samay. Mukti (liberation from the cycle of birth and death) is not dependent on samay.

Questioner: The word ‘samay’ comes in Jain terminology and the Tirthankar Lords have mentioned the word ‘samay’. Could You please explain that a little, what is samay?

Dadashri: What are you referring to as samay?

Questioner: Everything, however short or long, that is passing by, that is samay.

Dadashri: Wow! Correct. So, you are referring to the fundamental thing as samay. So, the smallest unit of Time is referred to as samay. Then after that, there is reference to an hour, a minute, a pal (measure of time equal to 24 seconds).

This Time that exists, it is also divisible all the way up to a samay. A samay cannot be divided any further. A samay cannot be split into two parts. Now, a samay is so small that it is much shorter than the blink of an eye. A samay is much shorter than a pal. A pal can be divided, but a samay cannot be divided further. There can be one samay, two samay, three samay, but samay cannot be divided into pieces. Therefore, samay is incorporated within Time (kaal), it is its smallest [unit]. It is its indivisible part.

Now, kaal is of two types. One is vyavahaar kaal (relative time; time used in the relative); what do we call that? We refer to it as a pal, a vipal (one sixteenth of a second), then a minute, an hour, a day, a week, a fortnight, a month, and all the way to a year. Whereas the original, the true kaal is the Nishchay kaal (Real Time; the eternal element of Time), that is referred to as a samay.