[1] The Real Form of Parmanu

batteries are filled with power, there is ‘light’, and when the power exhausts, the ‘light’ goes out. The power continues to be charged once again. The old batteries discharge, while new batteries continue to be charged.

Questioner: So You have spoken about the changes, but how much power is there in the pudgal, how much energy does the pudgal have?

Dadashri: The energy of the pudgal is paudgalik (worldly; of the non-Self complex), it is not the energy of the Self. So, its energy is different. Had this power not been filled, then the Pudgal Parmanu were certainly separate. It is actually because power has been filled in, that it functions as if it is like chetan (living; animate). It functions so wonderfully, as if it is living indeed. The mind, intellect, chit, ego, anger, pride, deceit, and greed; everything is there. It functions as if it is living, but there is no life in it whatsoever. It is simply ‘powered’ [charged energy]; it is only the power atma (the self that has been powered with life energy). The worldly-interacting self (vyavahaar atma) means the power atma, whereas the Nishchay Atma is the Real Self. The Real Self does not ‘do’ anything whatsoever in this body. ‘It’ continues to only illuminate every living being; It does not ‘do’ anything else. To ‘do’ is not in Its inherent nature at all. Anything that is being done is the state as the pudgal. It is the power atma* alone that is doing everything.

There is no problem if these batteries discharge and new power is not charged, however, for the people of the world, the old ones continue to discharge and new ones get charged.

Questioner: But just as there is the energy of the Self, how much energy does the pudgal have?

* There is detailed satsang on power chetan in Aptavani 14 parts 3.

Dadashri: Not a single component in the energy of the pudgal is weak; it is very powerful. There is tremendous energy in the pudgal, there is boundless energy, but You do not need to make use of that energy. What help can the pudgal be to You? Just as the Self has boundless energy, this too has boundless energy, but the boundless energy of the Self is of a different kind, and the energy of this [the pudgal] is of a different kind. This energy [of the pudgal] is achetan (that which is devoid of the Self; without the property to Know and See), whereas that energy [of the Self] is Chetan (with the property to Know and See). This energy [of the pudgal] has form, whereas that energy [of the Self] is formless.

Questioner: All the energy that has currently arisen in the world, for example, this electricity being generated from the force of water, that is doing so much work in the world; similarly, all this paudgalik energy that has arisen, would that energy remain if the relative knowledge and vision (gnan-darshan) and the worldly-interacting self (chetana) were not around?

Dadashri: It is a tremendous energy. As it is, even if the relative knowledge and vision, the worldly-interacting self (chetana) were not around, there would still be tremendous energy in the Parmanu.

On the contrary, it is because of the relative knowledge and vision and the worldly-interacting self that this unnatural energy (vikrut shakti) has arisen. The original energy [of the Parmanu] is actually a phenomenal energy. ‘One’ [the Self] has extensive Vision (Darshan), yet presently It remains veiled.

The Energy Gets Released When the Atom Is Split

Questioner: When they made the atomic bomb, they generated all the energy from inanimate matter.

Dadashri: There is actually immense energy in inanimate matter (jada), there is more energy than even the Self (Chetan). Inanimate matter actually has enough energy to annihilate the entire world. The only thing it lacks is laagni (Knowledge and bliss in this case). People have made use of the atom.

Questioner: The electrons, neutrons, and protons in matter?

Dadashri: All of that is inanimate.

Questioner: In science, there are atoms; these people do not exactly understand the relation between what we refer to as electrons and energy.

Dadashri: There is no energy in Parmanu. When the Parmanu come together to form atoms, that is when there is energy. The smallest division of an atom is a Parmanu. Thereafter, the Parmanu is indivisible; therefore, there is no energy in what is indivisible. There is energy in that which can be divided. So, the atom can be broken down; it is divisible. As soon as a skandha is formed, it can be divided.

Questioner: Is it true that whatever is visible in the form of a substance is made up of atoms and Parmanu? In every substance, that which is the non-Self (anatma) is fundamentally [made up of] atoms and Parmanu, isn’t it?

Dadashri: Yes, of course!

Questioner: Even with respect to atoms and Parmanu, there is talk of electrons and protons at present. Even within these, there are different, novel elements, and they have energy. So is that in the form of Chetan shakti (life energy; the energy to Know and See)?

Dadashri: No, no, that energy is different. There is no Chetan shakti in any of them. Each one of them has energy in them, which is different. The energy is definitely present; they definitely have energy. There is so much energy in those atoms and Parmanu that the Self cannot become free from them. Just imagine!

The atom possesses so much energy that it can completely annihilate the entire world! It is after two Parmanu come together, or three come together that energy arises [in invisible form].

Questioner: Of the six eternal elements, which one does physical energy fall under?

Dadashri: It is in the atoms and Parmanu, in the Pudgal. All the energy has arisen as a result of the Parmanu coming together. It contains a great deal of energy itself.

Questioner: Does the energy arise after the Parmanu come together?

Dadashri: It is when the atom is split that the energy arises, it gets released.

Questioner: And when the Parmanu are brought together…

Dadashri: Energy does not get released when they come together. Energy is released only upon splitting them. Energy is released by splitting them.

Questioner: Based on the discussions that are currently taking place, is there energy even in those Parmanu?

Dadashri: The Parmanu certainly have [their own natural] energy! However, as the Parmanu are indivisible, no changes can take place in the energy.

Questioner: The Parmanu come together to form atoms in a certain arrangement. Now, what happens to the Parmanu when the atom is split?

Dadashri: It is possible to split the atom using whichever method you use to split it, and that gives rise to energy. Now, people have extracted the energy generated from splitting the atom.

Questioner: But what is that energy from? Whose energy is it?

Dadashri: The atom has tremendous energy.

Questioner: The Parmanu remain exactly the same, don’t they? The aggregated Parmanu that were split…

Dadashri: The divisions that form from the atom, are even smaller particles of the atom. They do not become Parmanu. When the atom is split, subatomic particles are formed.

Questioner: It does not happen on account of the inherent energy within the atom, does it happen due to an external energy?

Dadashri: It is not external; it is the intrinsic energy. There is a tremendous amount of energy stored within. The external [energy] has nothing to do with this. Each one is dependent on its own energy. All these eternal elements have their own inherent energy.

Questioner: The atom can only be split if the external energy is greater, otherwise it does not split.

Dadashri: It can actually be split using certain methods.

Does Energy Arise by Coming Together?

Questioner: This nuclear energy that they talk about is the energy that is released by splitting an atom. This energy is released when an atom is split. So this proves that if this much energy is released by splitting it, then how much energy would be needed to bring them together?

Dadashri: No energy at all is needed for them to come together; that itself is known as Parmanu. To come together is its inherent nature and to separate is also its inherent nature. It is simply that we are setting out to split them; otherwise, it is indeed its inherent nature to undergo input and output (puran-galan).

Questioner: So then when this splitting occurs, how much energy does it produce?

Dadashri: The energy in fact arises because they are split. They are going against nature. They are not doing it as a natural process; they are following an unnatural process. The Parmanu gather on their own, and they also separate on their own. The Parmanu are inherently active (sakriya), so they carry out the activity (kriya) on their own indeed.

Questioner: If inanimate matter is doing this, then how much energy must the Self have?

Dadashri: Yes, the energies of the Self have entered into this on account of illusion (bhranti), that is why this is happening.

Questioner: Yes, so that is on account of illusion. So then how much energy must there be in the original Self, that is what I meant to ask.

Dadashri: There is infinite energy; that is something altogether different!

Questioner: Can this infinite energy be understood by anyone else besides the Tirthankar Lords?

Dadashri: No, it does not fully come into anyone else’s understanding. ‘One’ should feel absolutely free of any dependence whatsoever (niralamb). When the awareness arises in the developing ‘I’ that ‘Nothing can do anything to Me [as the Self],’ then so many energies will manifest! A transformation takes place by ‘touching’ the One with the energy.

Questioner: What the world refers to as energy, is energy that has arisen due to either the integration or else the disintegration. Energy is released when two things that have come together, or else many things that are situated close to one another, are separated. This energy, what the world refers to as energy, is that verily considered as the coming together and dissociation of the unnatural effects?

Dadashri: There is no dissociation or anything like that. Everything has atoms; energy is released as long as it is split.

Questioner: The energy that the world knows about, is it in the form of fusion energy?

Dadashri: Energy is released from fused atoms [when they are split], after becoming fused.

Questioner: This energy is from the coming together and the dissociation, so is it relative?

Dadashri: Yes, it is all relative. It is such a powerful energy!

Questioner: Yesterday, we saw rocks; they were white on one side and grey on the other side.

Dadashri: Yes, there are all kinds of varieties. The stones form in a certain way in one area, they are different in another area, they form differently in yet another area. One location may have a specific kind of formation, and another location may have a different kind of formation. Just look; kerosene can be extracted, coal-tar can be extracted, so many different varieties! The intellect cannot comprehend this.

The Properties of Pudgal Parmanu

Everything That Has Form Is Pudgal Indeed!

Therefore, there is one eternal element that is Chetan (with the property to Know and See), the remaining five eternal elements are jada (inanimate; non-living). [There is no property of Knowing and Seeing in the other five.] And of the eternal elements that are jada, one has a visible form (roopi). Of the six, only one eternal element has a visible form, whereas the other five are formless (aroopi). Why are you not saying anything?

Questioner: I am taking it in.

Dadashri: But if someone were to ask, “Which one has form? Which one is formless?” Then I would give an answer, wouldn’t I?

Questioner: There is no need to ask, please explain it to us.

Dadashri: Then I will explain it to you in the way that I can.

That which has form is the eternal element of inanimate matter; it is in the form of atoms and Parmanu. It is never formless.