Dating Dialogue, Moderated by Jennifer Mann, LCSW

Dating Dialogue

What Would You Do If…

Moderated by Jennifer Mann, LCSW of The Navidaters

Dear Navidaters,

It was the night before my sister’s engagement when I got the call from a shadchan who had an amazing idea for me. Because things were set for my sister’s engagement, my mother agreed for me to start dating and go out. Little do I know what was about to unfold. A week later, I had my first date with Avromi*. At this point, my sister had been engaged for all but a week when havoc wreaked in my house. A wedding date could not be decided because “the other side” was so nervous about Covid. They refused to meet my parents in person. When it came to talking monetary things, they were extremely stingy and stubborn. It seemed like they were using Covid as an excuse to make the most bare bones wedding. Long story short, my sister couldn’t take the pressure and the family and broke the engagement.

I’m still dating Avromi and one thing I have learned from my sister’s situation is to get to know his family. This is so not how things were supposed to work out. I feel so guilty every time I go on a date, when I leave hearing my sister cry in her room. My mother is tempted to tell me to break it off until my sister finds the right one. I think that would be a grave mistake. I figured I would write in… Any thoughts would be helpful

Thanks.

Talia*

Disclaimer: This column is not intended to diagnose or otherwise conclude resolutions to any questions. Our intention is not to offer any definitive conclusions to any particular question, rather offer areas of exploration for the author and reader. Due to the nature of the column receiving only a short snapshot of an issue, without the benefit of an actual discussion, the panel’s role is to offer a range of possibilities. We hope to open up meaningful dialogue and individual exploration.

The Panel

The Rebbetzin

Rebbetzin Faigie Horowitz, M.S.

Talia, things are hard at home. Your sister is upset. Your mother and you feel for her deeply and consider your actions in the light of her own sadness.

You need your own support and sounding board. Sorting through your growing feelings for Avromi, fears about his family, and guilt about getting serious while your sister’s future didn’t work out as planned is very important right now. You need to have a clear head and help to ask the right questions so that you have more clarity about Avromi, his family, your relationship with your sister, and your mother’s response to the broken engagement. You cannot get this at home right now so it’s best to talk to someone who knows you a long time as well as a professional.

Your sister needs time to mourn the broken engagement. So do your parents. You need to come to terms with the fact that breaking off a relationship with Avromi will not help your sister. You need to revisit and study the topic of mazal. And you need to look into yourself and ask yourself why you feel it’s your role to fix things at home.

Agency in your own life is achievable. Agency in the life of your sister is not. You can write little notes and show support with many small gestures and direct supportive talk. Ultimately, she needs to travel the journey past the broken engagement herself. She could use a professional and a mentor right now, too.

But the focus of this query is on you. You need to get support and learn to make decisions and take action for yourself. How to independently learn about Avromi and his relationship with his family with maturity and skill is another thing to learn. If you are ready for adult life, you must learn to be empathetic to close people without shutting off your brain.

Relationships are an ongoing seesaw. Sometimes hearts must prevail. Sometimes the head must prevail. And the skill is to know which comes first and when. Like all life skills, this is something that can be learned only with awareness, coaching, and practice. You can access the first two. The third is up to you.

The Shadchan

Michelle Mond

My heart goes out to you and your sister at this challenging time.

Everything happens for a reason, and we must succumb to this reality. We could spend life preparing for one outcome and then another occurs; such is life, and this just one example.

Your sister is going through a trauma no one should be familiar with. Do not add your breakup to her list. Contrary to what your parents are tempted to do, I think it would be hasty to make you end this shidduch based on your older sister’s predicament. There are many who say that, in an ideal world, the older sister should get married first. There are exceptions to this, and you are a walking example of one. Hashem guides all scenarios – don’t forget this. He ordained and orchestrated your sister’s relationship the way it occurred for a reason. Perhaps the sole reason for this was that it was your time to meet your bashert.

My advice to you is focus on your relationship with no guilt, acknowledging that Hashem is in the driver’s seat. If your parents put pressure on you, get a rav whom they trust involved. Brainstorm with this boy on your next date and together try and think of an idea for your sister. What a wonderful ending this would be if that was the end to this incredible story.

The Single

Rivka Weinberg

Wow, Talia, I am sorry to hear that you are going through this difficult situation. It sounds like you’re really stuck between a rock and a hard place. Although every circumstance is different, I can relate in the sense that I’m a younger sister, too. I started dating a while after I was ready, with the hopes that my older sister would find someone before me. Multiple rebbeim and mentors advised against what I was doing, but I convinced them, and myself, that it was the right decision.

My sister was dating someone seriously, and I, too, got a call from a shadchan with an amazing idea for me. At the rate things were going, I figured it was an OK time to pursue the idea. It was all fine and dandy until my sister broke up with the boy she was dating, and I was still in a serious relationship. The strong feelings of guilt and remorse would overwhelm me day and night. I felt as if I was on her turf and invading her territory. How could I possibly be dating someone if my sister wasn’t? I was reminded multiple times that Hashem has a plan, and that I shouldn’t try to control the world and play G-d. Everyone in my house mentally prepared for the inevitable: I was going to get married before my sister. It wasn’t easy, and there were many tears and heartfelt tefillos.

Well, as they say, man plans and G-d laughs. My relationship ended, and the ending we all feared didn’t come into fruition. However, one of my rebbeim went as far as to say that I subconsciously self-sabotaged my relationship to prevent what could have occurred.

Talia, from one younger sister to another, I beg you not to follow in my footsteps. Most people don’t understand the pain the younger sister experiences in this situation. It’s not as simple, exciting, and carefree as most believe it to be. This comes with a lot of guilt and self-condemnation. Please remember that you’re not doing anything wrong. This is not in your hands to control, and ending your relationship will result in two single and unhappy individuals. As difficult as it is, it’s important for all parties involved to remember that there is a Divine plan. Although we may not be zocheh to see what the plan is – now or ever – we must take the time to strengthen our emunah and How does the younger woman who barely has it together, but has a sheitel on her head, receive more respect than a woman significantly older than her without one?

bitachon muscles.

Now, for the community at-large, how did we allow ourselves to get to a point where we prevent a shidduch because we want to be the picture perfect family and not the pity case with an older unmarried child? How does the younger woman who barely has it together, but has a sheitel on her head, receive more respect than a woman significantly older than her without one? Rather than giving unsolicited, and usually unhelpful, advice to the next “older” single you come by, take the time to think of an idea and suggest the shidduch. Because, yes, she probably has already tried that shadchan and knows that singles’ events exist.

The Zaidy

Dr. Jeffrey Galler

There is a lot of sadness and hurt in your household right now. Let’s address three different wounded parties here:

For your parents:

It’s not productive or helpful for you to continuously re-live and re-visit what has happened. Please don’t make yourselves miserable by wondering if there was anything you could have, or

should have, done differently.

What happened here is definitely not the norm. Most folks find their machatanim to be helpful, flexible, and eager to work together and agree upon mutually acceptable solutions. In the future, you might wish to consider how, in some circles, machatanim try to come to some preliminary understandings about weddings and finances BEFORE the children get engaged.

Be proud that you helped your daughter escape from a potentially catastrophic marriage.

For your sister:

It might sound like a trite cliché, but remember that time is the healer. Consider how things would have been much more catastrophic if the breakup happened after getting married or after having children.

In future dating relationships, please accept as gospel how very, very important it is to spend a lot of time with each other’s families. Spend Shabbosim at each other’s homes and have dinners with his parents and siblings. In this age of COVID, there aren’t too many different places to go on dates, anyway.

For you:

You’re in a tough spot here. You want to be sensitive to your parents’ and sister’s heartache, but, at the same time, want to get on with your life.

If you are already dating someone whom you seem to like, keep dating. Ending that relationship prematurely would simply add to the existing household angst. However, it would be sensitive of you to postpone starting any new dates for a month or so, until things start to return to normal at home. You sound like a sensitive soul who will make a wonderful soulmate to some lucky young man. Best wishes to you, your sister, and your folks.

You feel you are being forced to choose between your sister’s happiness and your own.

Pulling It All Together

the world was The Navidaters created for each of us. How do Dating and Relationship Coaches and Therapists we reconcile such different ideas? I’m not sure, and I don’t pretend to have

Dthe answer. I will ear Talia, be you share that we have all

Thank you for writing into our can’t even believe I would been in situations where column. What a tough spot you are make such a suggestion. we were faced with choosing the in. You really care for your sister and Just notice your feelings and “other” or “myself.” These situadon’t want to hurt her any further, thoughts on the matter. Those tions are never easy, and most peoand at the same time you have found will be important to hold onto and ple suffer through the decision. Avrumi, someone whom you are en- explore in this and every situation In my small opinion, I believe joying dating and whose company in your life when you need to choose with my full heart that you need to you enjoy. It almost seems like you yourself. choose yourself and to do so without feel you are being forced to choose This isn’t fair to you. And I am so one stitch of guilt. Guilt is what we between your sister’s happiness and sorry things transpired this way for feel when we believe we are doing your own. And maybe your family everyone involved. Your sister is in something. And what exactly are dynamic is actually making you feel pain. Your parents are in pain. And you doing wrong? If you were to stop that way. I can’t imagine that anyone you are suffering, too. In our culture seeing Avrumi, your parents would in your family is purposely trying to we put family above all else. And have two tortured daughters instead hurt you, but still... let’s acknowledge that is simply beautiful. Family is of one (temporarily...this too shall you and your position here for a mo- at the forefront of our customs and pass). What does that accomplish? ment. traditions, and respect is paramount. You are entitled to find love, just as Sometimes we are raised to We have rules and order that serve a your sister is, and just as all of us are. believe that there is something in- beautiful function and perhaps are It’s nice when the older daughter marherently wrong with recognizing part of what have kept us alive as a ries first, as it gives us a sense of orourselves and making ourselves a pri- nation for thousands of years when der. As a parent, one doesn’t have to ority, so try to notice whatever may be there is simply no rational explana- worry about the emotional wellbeing coming up for you at this suggestion. tion for our existence. And yet, there of the older child. As the oldest child, Perhaps you feel guilty, bad, or may- is the individual. We are taught that he/she is spared from many unpleasant feelings. And the younger child feels comfortable with the notion of “and now it’s my turn...” That’s a nice space to be in because everything feels as though it is in perfect order.

But we all know that most of the time life isn’t perfect. There is no “order.” And we simply cannot control every bumpy wave or wait for smooth sailing to start rowing (aka living). This will be hard for all parties; make no mistake. And if yours is a communicative, open family, I hope there will be a lot of talking and sharing and working through uncomfortable moments instead of stifling or trying to un-ring this bell. It’s been rung. You’re dating. Have a heart-to-heart with your parents and your sister separately. Tell them all that you don’t want to hurt anyone. If this approach doesn’t work, might I advise getting a trusted family rabbi and/or a therapist involved to help you maneuver through this delicate situation.

You are allowed to be happy, Talia. You’re allowed to date. In my opinion, you aren’t doing anything wrong and you can stop punishing yourself with this guilt. You are allowed to live your life.

All the best, Jennifer Mann

Jennifer Mann, LCSW is a licensed psychotherapist and dating and relationship coach working with individuals, couples, and families in private practice at 123 Maple Avenue in Cedarhurst, NY. She also teaches a psychology course at Touro College. To set up a consultation or to ask questions, please call 516-224-7779, ext. 2. Visit www.thenavidaters.com for more information. If you would like to submit a dating or relationship question to the panel anonymously, please email thenavidaters@gmail.com. You can follow The Navidaters on FB and Instagram for dating and relationship advice.