Debate Transcript

28/09/11 STUDENT LEADERS’ DEBATE, 2011

Speakers: Mischa Menuck, President of the U of T Campus Conservatives Michelle Johnston, President of the U of T Liberals Nick Brownlee, Co-­‐Chair of the U of T NDP Club Kara Naklicki, Leader of the U of T Greens

Moderator: Geoffrey Vendeville, News Editor

GV: The first question is from Professor of Political Science Ryan Hurl. He said there hasn’t been much discussion about the impending economic crisis in the provincial debates, [and his question was] “how will your parties prepare, specifically, for this period of economic turmoil. What will have to change?”

MM: “Impending,” so I assume he’s referring to the future rather than the past. Well, quite frankly, the Ontario Conservative Party hopes to make Ontario a place to do business again. Unfortunately, in the last eight years that has not been the case, I won’t go into detail, but we’re a have-­‐not province now. Not a nice distinction to have. We’re being bailed out by Newfoundland. Not to bad mouth Newfoundland…

But it’s not exactly known for its intense industry and what not. Ontario used to be the driving force of the Canadian economy. The PCs will make Ontario a place to do business again. They’re going to reduce corporate taxes, they’re going to get red tape off the backs of businesses. And at the end of the day, that’s the only way you’re going to improve the economy: free up money, free up entrepreneurs, and free up the private sector.

MJ: I’m going to take the opposite stance, and say that in the past eight years we’ve come a long way in terms of the economy. We have become very attractive to international investors, especially because of the Green Energy Act. The implementation of the HST has made business investment – we’re the second most attractive place for investment in North America after California, and I think that’s incredible. I think we did an incredible job coming through the economic crisis that we just came through. In all of Canada, we came through the strongest, we created jobs through all of that, we saved our auto sector, and we’re going to continue to move forward.

NB: The first thing I’d like to say is that anybody, any politician who claims that the economy is good entirely because of the government in power is speaking falsely, [or] that whatever economic troubles we have… you blame that all on the premier is also a little bit facetious. There are so many other things in play. But what we can do is plan practically for the future… With the EU and American issues … We’ll be greatly affected if their debt issues come to a head. So our proposition – we’re the only party with this in our platform right now -­‐ is to create a $2 billion buffer zone,

28/09/11 to put this aside so in case of a rainy day we can find a way to create jobs in a crisis…

And if that crisis doesn’t happen, we can [use it] to pay off our debt.

KN: What the Green Party of Ontario would like to do in face of the impending economic crisis is two things. First, to encourage a shift to jobs that are sustainable in the long term. This means putting a tax on pollution, waste, and carbon emissions, and using that tax revenue to fund initiatives for training for jobs in the knowledge sectors such as clean energy and technology, etcetera. The second thing would be to build the economies of local communities. This will help insulate us against shocks in the global econ. There are a number of ways we’re going to do this, mostly through the promotion of energy distribution in small communities…

GV: Our next question comes from Adam, who’s doing a MSc in ecology at U of T. His question was, “Where does each party stand on climate change. What would you do to offset it? Or, if you don’t believe in it, why not?” Michelle, the floor is yours.

MJ: The Ontario Liberal Party has taken a firm stance on the environment. They’ve realized that we need to tackle this issue for future generations because we can’t just think up until October 6. And we have the strongest policy on the environment.

We have implemented the Green Energy Act. Not only has it created jobs, but we are working towards having clean, sustainable energy -­‐ it’s more expensive now, but it’ll become more affordable. Toyota has invested here in the electric car. To run an electric car – it’s $70 to fill up a tank with gas; it’s $7 to [charge] your car with electricity. So we’re working towards investing in that so that future generations will have clean, sustainable energy, and we won’t be fighting to get that [fossil fuels] when we run out of other sources.

NB: If you’re talking about the NDP and climate change, we were actually the first party to mention it in the House of Commons. It’s one of the biggest things we fight on… The main thing that beats climate change – I don’t think it’s a big part of the Liberal clean energy strategy that some environment groups actually protested against, to put a price on power that affects small consumers. And that’s only going to [affect]… seniors, and working families, people with not a huge amount of disposable income, who aren’t responsible for the great majority of things. How you really change things is by infrastructure investments. That’s in energy policy. It’s not in new nuclear, what the Liberals are doing. It’s by making radical new investments in renewable and sustainable forms of energy, as well as in public transit. In other words, to make it easier for people to be green.

KN: I’d like to say that it’s probably not the Ontario Liberals who have the strongest environmental policy; It’s the Green Party of Ontario. And, obviously, the Green Party of Ontario believes climate change is real… And what we do to combat is what I already mentioned : create revenue from taxes on carbon emissions, waste, and pollution, and using that money to subsidize more environmentally friendly ways of life, including more [electric and fuel efficient?] cars, commuter benefits for public

28/09/11 transit, ridesharing… etcetera. Also, we are opposing the construction of nuclear plants, much like the NDP, because we believe they’re not affordable.

MM: Climate change. That really depends what you mean by that— [Other leaders laugh] MM: I’ll be straightforward and I won’t waste a lot of my time on this part of the question. I’m unconvinced, I’m not going to bother listing all the things to it. And largely I think climate change is irrelevant to the environment. If you’re asked on the question of energy for example -­‐ if I’m asked, do I believe clean energy is important?

Yeah. Oil is going to run out eventually. It’s not renewable. I recognize that. And anyone who’s gone through a smog day in Toronto knows that cars aren’t necessarily the best thing. But what matters is finding real alternatives to energy – and, quite frankly, electric cars, as they currently work, is rubbish. The electricity for an electric car has to come from somewhere. And where does most of our power in Ontario come from? Coal plants, which your government [McGuinty’s], not to beat up on you [Michelle], but it’s true, have not closed down. We need real alternatives to energy -­‐ and that’s nuclear power. I’m sorry. Nuclear is the only alternative out there, and I’ll hold up my hands and say my own party has not been the best at arguing for this. It’s not going to be solar or anything else. The only thing that will meet our energy needs is nuclear. And that’s what we need.

MJ: Our party has taken a strong stance on coal plants. We’re working to shut them down. Our goal is to have them all shut down by 2014.

NB: Two quick points. One, you might say that no party is really talking about nuclear very much, but the Liberals already have a plan for massive new investments in nuclear. That’s the main point I wanted to make. No one’s really [explicitly] arguing for it, but they’re doing it anyways.

KN: I’d like to say there is an alternative to nuclear power, and that is to invest in decentralized projects in many communities, which will again foster stronger local economies.

GV: Since we’re on the topic of the environment, I have a more U of T-­specific question here, from Maya, who is majoring in Life Sciences and is also a barista at Caffeinds café in Victoria College. She asked, “What is your opinion on how well the university is managing waste?” And we could just open that to a discussion of U of T’s environmental record in general. We’ll begin with you, Nick.

NB: To be quite frank, this is not… I’m not an expert on this issue, I haven’t been studying it. I don’t actually personally believe the onus is on public institutions like universities to really develop a change. But I am aware – U of T is a place for research initiatives… I can’t speak to that, frankly.

28/09/11 KN: I would say U of T is doing relatively well. There are initiatives like the Green Room at the Galbraith Building. And also the new exam centre is fully green certified. There are recycling programs at the [various] colleges. I go to Victoria College, so I’m familiar with the program there. I’d say they’re [U of T] is doing reasonably well, but there’s always room for improvement.

MM: Well, I’m most familiar with policies my own college, Trinity College, has put forward. I have to say I like what I’ve seen there. We have our own green roof, we really put some solar panels on the Larkin Building, which seem to have worked well. It actually generated some revenue that we used for a scholarship program. I don’t really have any major complaints. I have to say some of the policies the university put in place have a bit of a flashy nature, to generate headlines more than anything else – like banning bottled water. Quite frankly, I think that was the most stupid, boneheaded thing you could ever do. People are going to want to buy something when they’re thirsty, so now they’re going to buy sugary soft drinks and stuff. I heard we got an obesity epidemic, so you should be encouraging people to buy bottled water. So, I have no problem with cutting down on waste as long as it’s something designed to have a real effect, not just to generate some headlines.

MJ: I’m going to respond to that. I know I’m not the best example right now, drinking bottled water. But I assure you that I am in between buying a bobble filter – I’m sure you guys know what bobbles are. I think it’s great that university has taken an initiative to ban bottled water. The next step that they need to take though is to create more stations where people can refill re-­‐useable bottles. Because I think one thing that pushes people to buy bottled water is “I don’t see a water fountain. I’m just going to go to the water fountain and buy a bottle of water.” I know that some stores on campus have stopped selling bottled water. I think that’s great. But they really need to get more fountains to encourage people to not drink soft drinks, but to drink tap water, because it is safe to drink.

MM: May I respond to that? I’ll say it again: if people are thirsty they’re going to buy something drink. And yeah, more water fountains would be great. Because, quite frankly, I think bottled water is the most marvelous scam that anyone has ever pulled upon the world… It’s the genius of saying “I’m going to take something you get for free and I’m going to sell it to you.” On the other hand, if people want to buy it, that’s fine. And I like having the option of buying bottled water, better than [the obligation] to buy coke or Sprite. I’m trying to be healthy here, you know?

NB: To make a quick point, it’s a very good idea generally… But it has to go hand-­‐in-­‐ hand with greater accessibility to public drinking fountains…

KN: I’d just like to say that perhaps a solution would be to offer more healthy alternatives through initiatives like the farmers’ market that happens on Thursday.

Just to create opportunities [to buy] real, healthy foods with substance…

GV: This one comes from Shaun Shepherd, VP External of the UTSU and founder of the Take It Over campaign. He asked “What are your party’s plans

28/09/11 to increase accessibility to and affordability of post-­secondary education?”

Kara, we’ll begin with you.

KN: The Green Party would like to freeze tuition for the 2012-­‐2013 school year, and afterwards index it to the rate of inflation, so students pay a fair amount. What the Green Party would also like to do is increase funding for cooperatives, education, mentorship, and apprenticeship programs – which I think is a great thing. It’s mainly to combat unemployment among youth and to give them an opportunity to have actual experience… It makes education more valuable.

MM: Ah, our delightful, unelected, unaccountable Vice-­‐Führer of the UTSU has a question-­‐ [laughs] GV: May I remind you you’re on record right now.

MM: I don’t care. I think that fellow is undemocratic, and the UTSU is a cabal that should be booted out. I think it’s disgraceful that they cancelled elections. Quickly to the point at hand… the Ontario PCs are committed to cancelling Dalton McGuinty’s sweetheart scholarship deal for out-­‐of-­‐province students, which even as a scholarship program for anyone is excessive and ridiculous -­‐ $40,000 a year. That’s lavish money for a student. We should take that money and put it toward Ontario students, who are desperately in need of help. I think we could all agree on that. And should have their tax dollars going to support their educational studies.

MJ: I do agree that we are in need of help, and that’s why our policy on education is strongest and the most exciting policy of our platform. We are doing three things to help out students. First of all, and the most exciting one, is we’re taking 30% off tuition for middle-­‐ and low-­‐ income families. I know that sounds like it’s only accessible to some people but it’s actually accessible to 94% of students… That’s $1600 a year for university students, and $700 for college students. We will also extend the grace period for OSAP payments, so the interests will not go onto your OSAP for another six months for students that take up jobs with NGOs. Additionally, we’re recruiting 60,000 more spots on top of the 200,000 spots we’ve [already] created for students by opening three more campuses.

NB: Frankly, this kind of a cheap shot. But a word to the wise for tuition fees and the Liberals’ promises, if it’s such a great idea, why haven’t they done it already with the time they’ve had in government? Our plan is very straightforward. We want a simple tuition freeze for the next four years. We want to move towards – and this will require federal help as well – towards a universal system of post-­‐secondary that they have in a host of other countries. But this is something we have to deal with gradually, and reasonably and we’ll see where the budget goes and we’ll see how things develop. We can guarantee and absolute freeze on tuition, and with inflation that [tuition] will be going down.

28/09/11 KN: I was just going to side with Nick here. As a student myself, a 30% tuition cut sounds great. I’m just wondering why it hasn’t [been implemented] yet.

MJ: At the start of our eight years we did freeze tuition. I think what all the parties have neglected to address is that we just went through a recession. Our party did its best it could to walk us through a recession without creating an unnecessary deficit, and now that we’re back on track we can invest in students. That’s why the ON Liberal Party has committed to putting these policies forward starting next semester. If elected, we will take $1600 off your tuition.

MM: If I had a dime for every [broken] promise Dalton McGuinty has made in office, I wouldn’t have any student loans. I could pay them off. People need to start recognizing that when it comes to post-­‐secondary education we need to stop looking to the provincial government to stop solving all our problems. I’d like to see tuition a bit lower. But you know what? University usually leads to a relatively good income. Afterwards, you can pay them [student loans] off. Nothing in life is free. And secondly, there are lots of other ways you can get money to help out with education other than going to the government every time. As much as people like to malign Peter Munk, his donations did give us the Munk School. Quite frankly, trying to partner more with private sector and alumni donations – I don’t have a problem with it.

MJ: I just wanted to point out that our platform is fully costed. My question for you Nick, is why has the NDP neglected to cost the $1 billion dollars they plan to spend on a tuition freeze?

NB: I’m pretty sure it’s in the platform that I’ve seen. And besides which, our platform is costed to have a $2 billion dollar surplus. So, we’re in a grace period anyways. And we’re dead certain that it’s in there.

MJ: Others would beg to differ.

GV: This one comes from a recent grad, Andrea Hitchman, class of 2010. Her question is: “The job market is terrible right now. What does your party plan to do to help university grads find jobs in their field?”

MM: The only way you’re going to help them find jobs in their fields is by creating jobs. The only way you’re going to create jobs is by creating a business-­‐friendly environment, lowering taxes, and reducing red tape on business. If you look at some of the regulations we have out there, it’s ridiculous. Talk to someone who wants to, say, open up a restaurant. The licensing he has to go through to do that is, quite frankly, horribly difficult to go through… Our party is the only one out there that is committed to create a business-­‐friendly environment. I won’t bother going into the NDP and the Green’s [platforms] because, quite frankly: tax, tax, tax, tax, tax. It’s never going to create economic growth. McGuinty, he can’t seem to make up his mind about what he wants to do. He talks about creating a great economy, but he’s the Tax Man. We’ve seen no end to the hidden taxes introduced under his period in office. Bring back the good old days of Mike Harris—

28/09/11 [Nick laughs] MM: -­‐-­‐ when ON was not a have-­‐not province.

MJ: I think a lot of people would disagree with you on that. You can cut taxes, but you can’t cut services. That’s what makes Ontario a have-­‐not province. To get into our party’s platform, first of all, as I mentioned earlier, we’re creating that grace period for OSAP loans. I think that’s so important because a lot of students coming out of university think, “Oh my gosh. I can’t get a job in my field. If I take up a job working for an NGO, I’m not going to be able to start paying off my loans in six months.” So they take up three jobs, three part-­‐time, well-­‐paying jobs to pay off their loans… It’s really important that we make the jobs they want more accessible. I agree that, in order to make these jobs available to them, we have to create more jobs, and the Liberal Party has worked toward that, and made Ontario more competitive on the international market.

NB: About the corporate tax cuts that both the Liberals and the Conservatives have penned into their platforms: some help encourage jobs, others help encourage profits. If you give a blanket corporate tax cut… that’s just going to go into people’s [executives’?] bank accounts. If you have a selective thing, we’re going to create a subsidy for every business that creates jobs, it’s a specific thing that’ll help encourage investment. It makes it more affordable for people to hire new people.

That’s how we’re going to try to boost the job market… I think the other thing that graduates are worrying about – we’ve got a lot to worry about in the next few years… We have a surplus penned into our budget, a $2 billion safety net in case things start to go bad…

KN: I’d like to say that Andrea’s right. We lost 300,000 jobs over the past decade.

What we need to do is shift our thinking, and invest in sort of jobs that will be sustainable. The Green Party of ON thinks that’s jobs in the knowledge sector, and Green technology. We would invest in programs in those fields, training, information sessions, that kind of thing. I also mentioned earlier that we’d invest in cooperative education programs and that sort of thing to give university students more experience in their field. Conservatives might be surprised to find out that the Green Party would actually like to cut taxes in some instances. We want to cut taxes by 30% for families in terms of income taxes, and for payroll taxes for small businesses.

We do want to make ON a more business-­‐friendly environment. We just don’t want [to focus] on big business.

MM: I’d like to respond to a few things, first of all that bizarre thing Michelle said about spending our way out of being a have-­‐not province. A social security net is great, but, I’ll quote Ronald Reagan, “the best social program is a job.” Secondly, also on the issue of cutting spending, yeah, there are essential services that need to be maintained. However, what we’re talking about cutting is the waste and mismanagement of McGuinty’s government. This government is paying for Mickey Mouse parties during their office parties. Look it up. That was actually a documented expense that his government was allowed to incur. Now secondly, to

28/09/11 the Greens and the NDP: you love to talk about the corporations, but you have to live in the real world. Hike up their taxes, it’s a globalized economy – they’ll just say “Forget you, we’re going to China now!” Quite frankly, all this about “knowledge jobs” – what is a knowledge job? I hear all these people talk about knowledge jobs, and I don’t see it. Anybody who says manufacturing is unsustainable, take a look at Germany. They’ve got a very heavy manufacturing, export-­‐based economy. It’s one of the best economies in the European Union. So, the reason we’ve lost our manufacturing jobs is because we have unfriendly business practices in this province. We refuse to accept the fact that we’re competing with China, India, and other places. We can’t keep maintaining the sort of extravagant benefits and social programs that we thought we could when we were an economic powerhouse.

NB: How high do you think Germany’s corporate tax rate is? It’s a good chunk higher than ours actually. We have the lowest corporate tax rate in the Great Lakes region…

Remember that most American corporations have to pay health insurance for their employees… Investment does spur things. If you think low corporate taxes is the way to go, look at the United States that keep slashing theirs and tell me that’s the way to go forward… There’s always going to be money to be made in ON. And people are going to be here to make it. We hike up corporate taxes, people are still going to stick around, and they’re still going to be able to make a damn good buck in ON. MJ: In terms of tax cuts: we talk so much about corporations but we also need to recognize small businesses. The ON Liberal Party is committed to lowering the small business tax to 4% to encourage job creation and help the little guys, because we tend to forget about them. Second, you [Misha] talk about cutting down on waste and mismanagement: is that a reference to you closing down hospitals and schools?

Because that’s what the Mike Harris government did, and you seem to be a huge fan of him.

MM: Yeah, we closed down hospitals as part of the streamlining process. If you close down unnecessary facilities and redirect the resources… If you can do the work of two hospitals in one hospital, stop maintaining two buildings. That’s expensive…

There’s nothing wrong with streamlining things. Your government is completely in love with the unions and too afraid to lay people off… Mike Harris wasn’t.

KN: I’d like to agree with Michelle and say it’s important to focus on supporting entrepreneurs and small businesses. The Green Party of ON wants to reduce payroll taxes on small businesses by 30%. I’d like to emphasize that while corporations are obviously part of our world today, they do not vote, unlike people. And government should really be focused on people’s interests.

GV: Time to move on. Tam, studying Sexual Diversity Studies, in her fifth year, wanted to know: “Where do you stand on legislation to include gender identity in human rights codes?” And we have a follow-­up question from Professor [David] Rayside, a professor of political science and sexual diversity studies.

His question was “Would your party make Catholic school boards abide by Ontarian equity policy on sexual diversity?”

28/09/11 MJ: In terms of equity within schools, we have committed to creating safe environments for students. I think that’s really important.

NB: We were big advocates, we have been big advocates on this front for a long time.

Gender identity seems to be one of the things, it’s a discrimination issue that time and again people seem to keep resisting a little bit. It’s just about making people feel comfortable in society, making them feel comfortable about who they are, making them feel like full and engaged citizens. So absolutely, absolutely we’re for getting gender identity in human rights codes. It’s about respect more than anything, I think.

KN: I’d like to completely agree with Nick on that issue. In terms of the second question, I think that’s a whole other issue, based on whether or not the ON government should even be funding separate schools. I think that every student… should have the right to express themselves the way they want to.

MM: Firstly, human rights are bunk. Being a human being does not entitle me to anything sort of special rights, treatments, or privileges. What people believe are human rights are really civil rights. On those grounds, I believe that one’s orientation should be enshrined in the civil rights of a nation. I think everyone should be free to identify as whatever they wish to identify with as long as it’s not adversely harming other individuals. Human rights have become nothing more than an excuse to bully and go after those they don’t like… On the issue of the Catholic school boards, the Catholic school system in Ontario is an incredibly complex hold-­‐ out leftover from a long time ago, and it will require an incredibly complex solution that I do not think I can effectively go into at this time. Yes, [gender] identification rights need to be protected. I don’t think it’s right to force the Catholic Church to abandon core principles. It’s a complex question that will require a complex answer.

NB: Personally, I’m not sure what my party would do if this issue came up. I really do believe, and I suspect my party does too, equity laws and all human rights conditions should be [respected] by all public institutions regardless of their associations. Catholic schools aren’t attended exclusively by Catholics. They’re open to everybody. Often [students] go there because it’s the best school in their area.

GV: We have three more questions. This one is from Toby, who is studying adult education at OISE and is also a mechanic at Bike Chain. His question was: “Where do you stand on provincial taxation of private automobiles to create a municipally-­accessible fund for public transit improvements?” In other words, would you support a tax on cars to support public transit?

NB: I’m not dead certain that that’s the most effective way to fund public transit. I like the balance of it, [but] we have other plans involving public transit… [too much] of the TTC’s operating budget comes from the fares people pay, the highest ratio in North America actually – it’s despicable, it’s ridiculous. People rely on it every day, and it’s extremely expensive if you have to use it multiple times. We want to bring that cost down…

28/09/11 KN: The Green Party of ON would definitely like to spend money on [promoting] active forms of transportation, i.e. cycling. Not necessarily having this money coming directly from taxing cars, but instead as part of the illness prevention arm of healthcare. The Green Party wants to spend around $200 million on active transportation, clean streets, bike lanes, and that sort of thing, to encourage a healthy lifestyle which reduces healthcare costs in the longterm and saves us money.

MM: No. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. A million nos. Taxing cars is stupid. It’s the most urban-­‐centric, liberal-­‐elite idea you could ever think of. If you live in a rural area, you need a car. Public transit just isn’t an option if you’re living in the countryside, for starters. You’re taxing people for an essential requirement – which is just stupid.

Secondly, I agree we need to invest in public transit. I use public transit. But you know where the first place is you should start looking [for funding]: the TTC union.

Salaries are excessively high.

[Nick, apparently a little annoyed, raises his hand to speak] MM: Put your hands up, put your hands up. The TTC union is the biggest racket you will see. Salaries are ridiculously high. People are earning $80,000 to $90,000 a year to sit in a booth handing out tokens. The union is ridiculously protective of its members when it comes to firing incompetent service, other things of that nature.

Take the unions to task, take them out to the woodshed, give them a good whooping, then you’ll find extra money to invest in transit.

MJ: I’m going to agree with Nick in saying that we can’t comment specifically on that particular policy. But the ON Liberal Party is committed to investing in public transit which is why we have committed to two-­‐way, full-­‐day GO Train service across the GTA and to Hamilton, that will create thousands more jobs. We do recognize that transit is extremely important, and it’s a step in the right direction for the environment. What we constantly hear from the PC is “cutting down gridlock, cutting down gridlock,” even when they’re talking to students. You know that’s not a step in the right direction. We need to invest in public transit and work towards a sustainable future.

NB: TTC workers, they work hard. They do a good job. This bashing of TTC workers and the TTC union is a little bit disgusting to me, and it’s not a solution. It’s a very negative… A lot of conservatives, like in the States, Obama introduces moderate tax cuts and they call it class warfare. Well, this class warfare. This is stereotypes against unions, and I really find it despicable. We’re definitely not going to be taxing cars. This is not the way you change peoples’ behaviours. This is how you make it hard to live in rural areas.

MM: Gridlock needs to be addressed. If you think having a car running in packed wall-­‐to-­‐wall traffic, giving off carbon emissions is good for the air, quite frankly, you’re silly. If people live in the suburbs, they need to drive. Public transit won’t [realistically] meet all people’s needs. And secondly, the unions: you know what I

28/09/11 find despicable? Walking to a subway station and seeing the guy behind the booth fast asleep on the job. I’m all for well-­‐paying jobs for people who are doing a deserving job. The TTC union protects its own. They’re lazy. They’re incompetent.

They do a terrible job. And, quite frankly, if they worked in the private sector, most of them would be on welfare.

MJ: It’s not that we’re ignoring gridlock; it’s that by making public transit more accessible, you take cars off the road. Not only are you stopping emissions, but you’re reducing [traffic] by taking cars off the road.

KN: Two points. First, I’d like to come to the defence of TTC workers a little bit. They can’t be that bad.

[The others laugh] KN: I’ve had the privilege of speaking to TTC workers while campaigning. And the surprising thing may be, to some people, is that they agree that there’s waste within the unions. The right thing to do, instead of “taking them out to the woodshed,” is to talk to them in an open and collaborative process, and find ways to make the system more efficient. Secondly, it’s important to create liveable communities, where people can walk and bike to work… so that they don’t have to buy a car and pay for gas.

GV: The next question comes from my roommate [Animesh Roy], a U of T graduate in engineering, and he’s from Singapore. His question was: “There are between 8,000 and 9,000 international students at U of T. They pay on average around $23,000 in tuition per year. Is it important to attract foreign students to Ontario? How would you support them?”

KN: I’m not sure of my party’s policy on this, but considering that the Green Party would like to freeze tuition next year for domestic students, I don’t think it’d be a big stretch to say that they’d want to do the same for international students… The Green Party thinks it’s important to attract foreign students to ON. Immigration is a key part of the way we increase our population…

MM: Bringing the best and the brightest from other countries is a great idea. No one’s going to argue otherwise. As Kara already said, we have a demographic imperative to bring in immigration. We should bring people who are net contributors to society… The government doesn’t need to attract them. Universities can do so very well on their own. Universities are broke. If they can get money from international students than domestic students, they’ll do a great job of competing to attract them on their own. The free market will decide.

MJ: I agree that universities [already] do a great job of attracting international students. However, not all international students can afford the tuition that universities charge for foreign students. That’s why we have committed to creating scholarship to make education accessible, the same way we committed to making education accessible to our own youth and students in ON.

28/09/11 NB: I don’t know if we made any specific announcement on this issue, but absolutely – we’re a country of immigrants, and we’re all about attracting the best and the brightest. We’ve got some fantastic universities in this province. U of T is pretty much at the top. We attract a huge amount of international students and we’ll continue to do so in the future. By freezing tuition in general – that might have some effect on international students… I can only speak to my own personal opinion on that, which is make things more affordable. This shouldn’t a group that we should be out to rip off. This is a group we can really benefit from. We should make it [tuition] more affordable.

MM: Yeah, not everyone from the rest of the world can afford to come to a Canadian university. Not everyone in Canada can afford to go to a Canadian university. That’s an unfortunate truth. And, quite frankly, if we have to prioritize, the top priority should be Ontario students. Yes, if left over, after we’ve addressed all the financial needs of Ontario students, of which there are many -­‐ as I’m told almost every day by our lovely, unelected student union -­‐ then sure, absolutely, I see nothing wrong with trying to bring and help out foreign students who come here. They contribute. But the top priority is Ontario students. That’s what the government of Ontario should focus on first and foremost.

MJ: I agree that the top priority should be Ontario students. That’s why the Ontario Liberal Party has come up with a strong platform for making tuition more affordable. Now, who’s to say we can’t do both? Who’s to say that we can’t make tuition more affordable for Ontario students while making Ontario affordable and desirable for international students? International investment and immigration is all part of our economy, and if you lock out immigration, if you stop people from wanting to come to our country and invest in our country, that’s when Ontario becomes a have-­‐not province.

KN: I’m not sure what kind of engineering your friend graduated in, but a lot of my friends in engineering are in mechanical and civil, and they can choose to go into the stream of alternative energy, green energy. An important way of supporting those students, possibly international students, is to invest in initiatives that support this… green technology, etcetera.

MM: May I just quickly respond to a point Michelle made? I know we don’t want to get into a back-­‐and-­‐forth, but I feel the need I must. She made several exaggerations— GV: If you’re [other leaders] OK with it.

NB: If he must.

MM: Yes I must. For starters, we have thousands of people lining up to come to Ontario universities. Quite frankly, saying that we’re not going to give out tons of fancy scholarships does not mean it’s going to cut off international students. And secondly, do you know why we can’t afford to do both? Because Dalton McGuinty has spent the province into the poorhouse – we’re bankrupt. Maybe if that hadn’t

28/09/11 happened over the last eight years, we would have the money to do everything. As it is, we must prioritize. Until we have the debt paid off and the debt under control – priorities.

MJ: We can move on. I’d hate to continue this back-­‐and-­‐forth.

GV: This is the very last question. It’s from the Newspaper staff. “A lot of students don’t feel attached to their riding or to any particular political party.

How do you propose to turn apathy into action?”

MM: For starters, people don’t feel attached to their riding because, well -­‐ I didn’t feel particularly attached to mine when I first moved here because I was very attached to my home. And a lot of university students still consider their home to be where they were from. As for generating youth interest in politics and what-­‐not, you don’t vote, you can’t complain. I don’t see how that is the role of government.

Democracy is participatory in nature. If you can’t muster up the enthusiasm to go out and get involved, well, tough.

MJ: I think there are a lot of aspects to this question. Firstly, people begin uneducated about politics. The simple civics course they take in high school barely teaches them anything. I didn’t have a real interest in politics until I moved to Toronto. And secondly, we’ve already started a lot of initiatives to try to get youth more involved in politics. We saw during the federal election, vote mobs. And I think, the main thing that we need to do is make the connection between “boring politics” and our daily lives. The fact that they’re basically the same thing, that political decisions affect our daily lives is – a lot of people know that, but they don’t make that connection, and we need to make that connection for them.

NB: I agree with Michelle on a lot of her points. I think a terrible job has been done as well. A half-­‐year civics course is not enough, high school… You really need to, I’m not exactly sure what form it would take, but political education needs to start early.

We need to start, in order to have a functioning democracy, you need to have an active citizenship. That’s what university should work toward fostering. But it’s difficult to do, and it’s complicated. As people age, they tend to vote at higher levels in general. That’s always been the case, I think, as a broad trend… It’s the 21st century, it’s Canada, people move around a lot. You’ll live in a lot of different ridings in your life. You’ll deal with a lot of different issues. All I can say is really people get involved when push really comes to shove. That might be the way things are going right now.

KN: I’m going to agree with Nick and Michelle, and say it’s important to start young.

I myself started getting politically involved in high school, in my grade 10 civics class. I just happened to be lucky that the year I was in that class was also the year of an election… The material can be dry at times, and I think it’s important that that is changed. Other ways students can be engaged is through the growing use of social media in campaigns. I’m familiar mostly with Tim Grant, the Green Party candidate in Trinity-­‐Spadina, this riding, and I believe he’s the only candidate with PR codes on

28/09/11 his election signs. He also uses Twitter, Facebook, etcetera. Lastly, it’s important to connect mediums they [students] care about by holding events like doc screenings, discussion forums, things like that.

MM: Hold your breath, I’m actually going to agree with a point Michelle made just now.

[Michelle claps] MM: You actually made a good argument that education – if we do want to increase youth involvement, then yeah, actually, education and fostering a sense of identity among the nation is the best way to go about it. Quite frankly, vote mobs and things like that are silly. Dragging a bunch of people who have never paid any attention to politics in their life, have no ideas about the issues… is stupid. Frankly, I don’t want uninformed people to go and vote, because they’ll just vote for the Rhinoceros Party or the Sex Party or something stupid like that-­‐ MJ: Is there really a Sex Party?

MM: In British Columbia, yeah. So, if you do want to foster a better sense of voter enthusiasm in the country, teach people the real history of Canada, create a sense of civic identity and nationalism, and they’ll get involved.

GV: Would you guys like to do closing remarks?

MJ: Sure.

NB: Let’s do it.

MJ: I guess I’ll just say that the Ontario Liberal Party has really committed to making education more accessible, and making tuition more affordable for students. We’ve done that by taking 30% off tuition for almost all students attending school. And I think that’s a huge step in the right direction. And we’ve done our best to move forward and think about the future in terms of the environment, in terms of my future children. And we’ve done that not only by creating cleaner energy, renewable sources, but [also] by making Ontario a desirable place for investment. I think those two things go hand-­‐in-­‐hand. That’s why we created the Green Energy Act, and we’ve created tons of jobs. We’re thinking about the future and going in the right direction.

NB: Whenever you vote for the NDP you vote for the only truly national party in the country. We’ve got bases all across the country. We’ve got provincial parties in every province except Quebec, although we have a very strong federal presence [there].

And we’re the only party that fights with the real vision that’s going to make things work for everybody… We’re trying to build a province, gradually, at affordable levels. These are difficult times, that’s why we built in a $2 billion surplus. We’re trying to move toward universal post-­‐secondary education. We’re trying to do our part to… And we do these things together. We do these things in a way that doesn’t

28/09/11 leave anybody behind. Andrea Horvath would be a great fighter for all of us at Queen’s Park. So, send her there!

KN: To summarize, the Green Party of Ontario has a five-­‐point plan for our future.

These are jobs, energy, food, health, and good government. In terms of jobs, I already mentioned we need to shift toward jobs with potential in the long-­‐term, to carry us over into more sustainable lifestyles. In terms of energy, this is a focus on conservation and efficiency. In terms of food, increase fresh and healthy local food, and support family farmers. In terms of health, focus on illness prevention and promoting healthy lifestyles. And lastly, in terms of good government, focus on the short-­‐term and non-­‐partisanship, and a shift toward more transparent and accountable government. Lastly, many people think of the Green Party as a one-­‐ issue party, focusing only on the environment. The truth is the environment is at the core of all important issues, because we need the environment to live, we need the resources, water, food, so really it should be at the core of what we do.

MM: I can understand the appeal that a lot of people feel for the points of view expressed by these three individuals to my left, both literally and figuratively— [Others chuckle] MM: It’s not fair that you have people on the street while a CEO earns millions of dollars a year. It’s not right that tuition fees are so high and I have to take out loans to get an education and be competitive in this new world. Damn, it just sucks I got a B on that paper instead of an A. Life is not fair. That’s the way we you have to look at it. And, quite frankly, false sentiments of indignation and what-­‐not do not make policies the right long-­‐term approach to the world. And that is why the Conservative Party is a party that people should support. We recognize that what matters is the long-­‐term feasibility of politics. And, quite frankly, you can’t just come at something from the point of view of, “Oh, it feels nice. It’s so much happier.” I’ll end with this statement: I quote P.J. O’Rourke, “There is only one human right. The right to do whatever you damn well please. And with that comes the one human responsibility, the responsibility to live with the consequences of it.” If you believe in that, vote Conservative.

GV: That’s a wrap. Thanks a lot everyone.