COVID and Capitalism: A Conversation with Richard Wolff by demandside

COVIDandCapitalism:AConversation withRichardWolff

VincentLyon-Callo

HowdowemakesenseofthewaysinwhichCOVID-19hasdevelopedandbeenresponded tointheUnitedStates?Howcannondeterministclassanalysishelpustounderstandwhy thepandemichasimpactedtheUnitedStatessoseverelycomparedtoothernations?What dothesepoliciesandexperiencesrevealaboutcurrentcapitalisteconomicandsocial relationswithintheUnitedStatestoday?Aretherepossibilitiesforinterventions throughanonessentialistMarxistanalysisandunderstanding?OnabeautifulJune afternoon, RethinkingMarxism coeditorVinLyon-Callodiscussedthesequestionsvia zoomwithhisformerprofessor,long-term RM boardmember,andhostofthequite popularpublicinterventionEconomicUpdate,RichardWolff(lightlyeditedforcontent andclarity).

KeyWords:CapitalistCrisis,COVID-19Pandemic,ClassAnalysis, Nondeterminist,ProﬁtMotive

VINCENT LYON- CALLO :WhenI ﬁrstsatinyourclassfocusedonmanyMarxisms,more thanthreedecadesago,andbegantoseetherichtapestryofMarxistscholarship,Icould notimaginewewouldbeheretodaysomanyyearslaterdiscussingaglobalpandemic. Whataninterestingtimethishasbecomeandwhataprivilegeitistotalkwithyouagain today.

Let ’ sstartoffwithaneasyquestion:Onyour EconomicUpdate onJune8th, 2020,(Wolff 2020c)youdiscussaverypracticalquestion:Whyisitthatthe U.S.,with5percentoftheworld ’spopulation,has30percentoftheworld ’ s deathsfromCOVID-19thusfar,andwhatmightbetheSocialistalternative? Thisleadstootherquestions,suchas:Howcanthatbe,despitethefactthat theU.S.alsoisoneoftheworld’ swealthiestcountries?Whyisitthatsomany Americansaregettingsosickanddying?Mightithavesomethingtodowith thevastinequalitiesthatexistedintheU.S.priortoCOVID-19evenarriving?

RICHARD WOLFF :Aswithallgoodquestions,therearemanyfactorsthatplayin.You mightevensaythatitiscomplexlyoverdeterminedthatwehave5percentofthe peopleoftheworldand30percentofthedeathsfromCOVID-19.Soletmego throughjustsomeofthem.Absolutely,theinequalityinthiscountrymeansthat, yes,weareoneofthewealthiestcountriesintheworld,butwhathastobeadded

isthatweareoneofthemostunequal,intermsofthedistributionofwealthand income,oftheso-calledindustrializednations.Thatinequalitycondemnslarge numbersofpeople,almostallofwhomliveatthelowendoftheeconomic pyramid.Theyhavebaddiets,theyhaveovercrowdedhousing,theyhaveinadequatehealthcare,andtheyoftenhaveunsafeworkingconditions.Weallknow whatthestoryis,soitshouldnotbesurprisingthateventhoughtheUnited Statesisrich,itsextremeinequalitymakesthepoorveryvulnerabletoany disease,particularlyonethatpassesthroughinfection.

ButIwouldactuallyliketofocusonadifferentkindofexplanation,whichwill applynotonlytotheUnitedStatesbutalsotoothercountrieswhohavehadbad experienceswiththisvirus.IamthinkingofItaly.HereistheargumentthatI wouldliketoadvance.Whatdoyouneedtodo?Whattwothingsthatare crucial?Toprepareyourpopulationforadangerousvirusandtomanagethe virusonceitentersyourcommunity.Sohowdoyouprepare?Youprepareby havingonhand,inadequatenumbersandadequatelystockpiled,allthenecessary equipment.Thatiswhatpreparationmeans.Soyouhaveproduced,stockpiled, anddistributedventilators,masks,gloves,ICUunitsinhospitals,beds,and trainedpersonnel.Youdonothavetobeatrainedepidemiologisttoknowthat dangerousviruseshavebeenwiththehumanracefromdayone.Ahorribleone in1918killed700,000peopleintheUnitedStates.Inrecentyears,wehavehad SARSandEbolaandadozenotherswhicharewell-knownandwelldocumented. Thereisnoexcusefornotbeingprepared.Thecostofsuchapreparationisasmall fractionoftheamountofwealthwehavealreadylostintheUnitedStatesfromnot beingprepared.Thereisnoefﬁciencyargument.Indeed,anyefﬁciencyargument wouldgotheotherway.So,then,why?Well,theansweriscapitalism.

Itisnotprofitableforcompaniestoproduceamaskorabedoraglove.To producethesethings,tostoretheminsomewarehouse,letalonetostockpile themalloverthecountry,waitingwhoknowshowmanymonthsforthenext virustoshowup,isnotprofitable.Theriskisenormous.Youarejustnotgoing todoitasacapitalist.Youcan findmoreprofitable,lessriskyinvestmentselsewhere.Howdoweknowthat?Becausethatiswhattheydid.Theydidnotmake thestuff,andwewerenotprepared.

Inthatsituation,youcouldhave[the]governmentcomeinandsaythefollowing: “Privatecapitalismstinksatbeingpreparedforviruses;itisanunreliable engineforpreparation,sowethegovernmentwillbetheoffsetter;wewilltake ontheriskandwewilltakeontheexpensebecauseprivatecapitalismisa failurehereandwemustcompensate.” Youwouldbuyallthesuppliesandthe testkitsyoumightneedforadiseasethatentersourcountry,andyouwould haveitavailable.Youwouldtakethenecessarystepsatthegovernment’ sexpense. WhydidthegovernmentoftheUnitedStatesnotdothat?Theansweristhatit haslongagobeencapturedbyanideologythatrunsroughlyasfollows:Ifitisnot privatelyproﬁtabletodosomething,thenitshouldnotbedone.SothegovernmentoftheUnitedStatesdidnotdowhatitcouldhavedone.Throughthe

failureoftheprivatesectorandthecomplicitfailureofthepublicsector,wewere notprepared.That’sthree-quartersoftheanswertowhywehavesufferedsobadly fromcoronavirus.

Letmedrivethepointhomeonemorestep.MighttherebeanexampleIcould pointtowherethegovernmentoftheUnitedStatesdiddoexactlywhatIjustsaid? Theanswerisyes.Themilitary.Itisnotproﬁtabletomakeamissileorarocketand storeit.Sothegovernmentcomesinandbuysallthatstuffasfastasitcomesoff theassemblylineandpaystostoreitanddistributesitandtrainsthepeopletouse it.Therationaleisnationalsecurity.Butthenotionofnationalsecurityforhealth reasonsdoesn’twork.Thatleadsmetothe ﬁnalpartofthis.Whydoesn’tit?Why hasn’tthemedical-industrialcomplex thefourindustrieswhichmonopolizethe medicalindustryinthiscountry;doctors,hospitals,medicalinsurancecompanies, andthedruganddevicemakers whyhaven’ttheybeensmartenoughtodevelop anideologythatsaysthegovernmentshouldcomein?Theanswerisobvious.If youbroughtthegovernmentintomakeussecureforafuture,well,thenwhy aren ’tyoubringingthegovernmentintomakeussecurerightnowwithMedicaid forallorasinglepayeroranyoftheotherplans?That’stooideologicallydangerousforthem.Sotheycan’tdoforthemselveswhattheyenviouslywatchthemilitary-industrialcomplexdobrilliantlyforitself.

Thenthereisthefailuretomanageit.Onceyoublowthepreparation.Onceyou haveawarenessthatyouaregoingtosuffer,you’regoingtolosealotofpeople, you ’regoingtohavemillionsofpeoplegetsick.Thenthepoliticalapparatus kicksin.Whoeverisinpowerhastominimizethedamageorthepartyorthe leaderwillsufferbecauseitisontheirwatchwheneveryonegetssick.Soyou needagovernmentthatdoesn’twanttotestpeoplebecauseitdoesn’twant publicawareness.Wehave,ifmynumbersarecorrect,lessthan5percentof peoplewhohavebeentested.Thatmeanswedon’tevenknowwherethe diseaseis,whohasit,whoissymptomatic,whoisnotsymptomatic.Allofthe keyquestions,wedon’thaveananswer … Wealsohave20to30millionpeople whoareunemployedandcouldbegiventhetrainingtotestpeople.Wehaveall thepeoplewhocanbethetesters,andwecantesteverybodyinaweek.What’ s theissue?It’satotalmismanagement,butnotbecausewecan’t.Obviously,we couldtesteveryone.Wearearichcountry,wehavethepeople,andwecould producetheequipment.Thishasbecomeapoliticalfootball.TheDemocratsare goingtoblametheRepublicans.TheRepublicanshavetopretendthereisno issue,theyaregoingtogeteveryonebacktowork,we’regoingtogeteverything backtonormal.Normalistheonlyhopetheyhavetomakethishorriblecollapse, bothhealthwiseandemploymentwise,goaway.Forme,thosearethekeyvariables comingtogethertomaketheAmericanexperienceso,soawful.

Lastpoint:Lastweektherewasa Time magazinearticlepreparedbytwophysiciansintheUnitedStates.Thearticlewaswonderfulbecauseitbeginsbysaying that,hereintheUnitedStates,thediseasehasinfected340peoplepermillion.In Chinaitwas5peoplepermillion.Nomatterwhatthefudgingofnumbers on

bothsides mayhavebeen,withtheseordersofmagnitude,thereisnoexcuse. Therestofthe Time magazinearticlewasabouttheutterfailureoftheUnited States.NotjustinrelationtoChina,buttheylistabouttwentyothercountries, allofwhomhavewaybetternumbersthantheUnitedStates.Thoseinclude Australia,NewZealand,SouthKorea,notjustVietnamandCuba,whohave verygoodnumbers.Mylastpointisthat,eveninacapitalistcountry,ifyou haveaculturethatsaysthegovernmentisn’tsomekindoffundamentalevil,the wayitisinourculture SouthKoreahasthat.Thegovernmentisrevered.The governmentisgiven fromyourandmyperspective toomuchrespect.But, wheneverthegovernmenthasahistoricallydevelopedauthorityandrespectin acountry,itcancomeinandmakethecompensationforcapitalism’sfailure. ThatwassomissingintheUnitedStates.That’swhyEnglandissobad.And,ironically,itiswhyItalywassobad.Italyusedtohavealeft-wingorientation;theyare goingthroughaperiodofneoliberalkindofhegemonyinreactiontotheoldCommunistParty.Soyoucouldexplainthem,too,asthegovernmentwaslostinthat fogofneoliberal,laissez-fairenonsensethatmadethemunabletostepin,ina timelyway.Which,bytheway,inItalytheydeeplyregret.

LYON- CALLO :Italy,though,haseventuallyloweredtheirratesmuchmorethan theU.S.

WOLFF :Right,right.Thatisbecausetheyhavethatculture.Andtheleftwing, whichwantsthegovernmentintherebecauseoftheoldnotionsofSocialism, theyattackedtherightwingonjustthepointI’mmaking,andsotherightwing wasbadlyhurt.That’spartlywhyItaly’spoliticsarenotasrightwingasthey couldhavebeen.TheirmismanagementofCOVID-19broughtbacktheleftist culture,andthatisoneofthereasonswhyyou’reseeingtheright-winggovernmentcomedownlikeatonofbrickssuddenly.Becausethey’reindangerpolitically oftheconsequenceofCOVID-19.ThatmayhappentoTrumphere,too.We’llhave tosee.

LYON- CALLO :Theothercomponentofthisistheeconomic.WehavemassiveunemploymentintheUnitedStates.But,withsocialdistancingbeingapublichealth requirement,wasnotmassiveunemploymentnecessaryassomanybusinesses neededtoclosetemporarily?OrismassunemploymentfromCOVID-19betterunderstoodasfailureofcapitalismitself,asyouarguedrecently(Wolff 2020d)?Might itbethatmassiveinequalityandeconomicprecarityarenotinevitable?Hasthere notbeenverydifferentexperiencesinotherspaces,suchasCubaoreveninItaly, asyoudiscussedonarecentbroadcastaboutMarcoraLaw(Wolff 2020a)?Are therelessonsthatpeopleintheU.S.mightlearnfromlookingattheexperiences inthoseplaces?

WOLFF :Well,Ithinktheansweristocomparecapitalistcountries.Atthebeginningofthecoronaviruspandemicinmid-March,unemploymentinGermany was5percentandunemploymentherewaslistedofﬁciallyatsomethinglike

4percent.Today,tenorelevenweekslater,unemploymentintheUnitedStates, dependinguponhowyoucount,is16to20percent,maybemore.InGermanyit wentfrom5percentto6percent.SohowdoyouexplainthequadruplingofunemploymentintheUnitedStatesandamere20percentincreaseinGermany?I coulduseFrance thenumbersareroughlythesameasGermany.Icouldeven useEngland,whosenumbersareclosertoGermanyandFrancethantothe UnitedStates.

What’sgoingon?Youcan’tdointhosecountrieswhatyoucandohere.It’skindof anextensionofwhatwejustsaidaboutItaly.Thepowerofthelaborunionsin France,Germany,andEnglandandthepoweroftheLeftissuchthat,hadyou triedtothrowaquarterofyourlaborforceoutofworklikewedidhere,you wouldhaveseenstreetproteststhatwouldmakewhatwe’veseeninthepasttwo weekslooklikeapicnic.Thosegovernmentswouldhavefallen.Thecountries wouldhavecometoacompletehalt.Itwasoutofthequestion.Itwassooutof thequestionthatevenconservativeturdslikeBorisJohnsonorAngelaMerkelorEmmanuelMacroncouldnotevenimagineit.Theydidnotproposeit.Instead,theywent tothebusinessesandsaid, “It’sacollapse;peoplecannotcometowork.It’sasupply shockofthemostprofoundsort.We’regoingtohavetheworstrecessionordepressioninprobablyhalfacentury,ifnotanentirecentury.Sohere’sthedeal.Wewill bailyouout,wewillprintmoney,butonthiscondition:partofthemoneywegive youwillbeusedtopayaminimumofseventypercentoftheregularsalaryand wagesofyourlaborforce;youcan ﬁrenobody,andyouguaranteethejobwillbe here,howeverlongthislasts.” That’swhattheydid.TheUnitedStatesdidnotdo that.Sotheinterestingquestionformeis,whatthehellisgoingonhere?Again, thestateispowerfulinGermany,France,andEngland.It’snevergonetothepoint ofatypeofreligiousfundamentalistnotionthatsomehowthegovernmentisbad, anideapushedbythe[U.S.]governmentalofﬁcialstopandertotheprivate sector’sdesiretohavethegovernmentfundthemandnevercompetewiththem. TheytriedtoachievethatinEurope,buttheycouldn’tpullitoff.That’swhythere isthedifference.

Theexperienceofthe1930sinthiscountryispeculiarlyabsenttoday.Wehavea levelofunemploymentlikethen.Wehaveadesperatesituationlikethen.Whyare wenotdoingwhatwedidthen?Forexample,between1934and1941,roughly ﬁfteenmillionpeoplewerehiredbytheUnitedStatesfederalgovernment.Why arewenotdoingthatnow?Whyarewenottrainingandhiringsomeofthem tobecometesterssoweknowwhereourdiseaseis?Whynotassignsomeof themtodoallofthatinfrastructurerebuildingthateveryoneagreesneedstobe done?Whyareyoupaying,forexample,anextra$600perweekunemployment beneﬁttohavethemdonothing?Whydon’tyoupaythemevenanextra$800 todosomething?Buildapark,dothethingsthatweredoneinthe1930s.Why nothaveanotherWPA,dosomeculturalworkaroundthecountry?Lordknows weneedit.Itwouldbeaspectacularlysuccessfulprogram.Let’sremember whenRooseveltdidthat,hegotreelectedthreetimes.Hetaxedtherichand

madetheseprogramsfortheunemployed.Andthebrain-deadBiden andIdon’t meanthatbecausehe’sold butthebrain-deadBiden,Clinton,Cuomo,itdoesn’t evenoccurtothem.Theydon’tadmitthedifferencebetweentheUnitedStatesand Germany.Theypretendthatthereisnosuchdifference.Themediafollowssuit anddoesn’ttalkaboutit.EverytimeIamonradioortelevision,Itellpeople abouttheexperienceinGermany.Youshouldseethefacesofthequestioners. Theylookatmelikeapuppythatjustgotcaughtdoingsomethingitshouldn’t ontherug.Comeon.It’sanamazingtestimony.AsmybuddySteveResnick wouldhavesaid,it’sanothercaseofthepowerofideology.Whatitis,whatyou canseeornotsee,eveninyourimmediateenvironment.It’samazing.Anddon’t getmestartedonthesilenceoftheAFL-CIO.It’sbeyondwords.It’sasilence that’sbeyondanynoisetheycouldmake.

LYON- CALLO :Andwehavethismassivegovernmentintervention.Mnuchinsayshe won ’teventellwhogotthemoney.Asyoupointout,weareinthemidstofaclass war.Withmassiveunemployment,wealthwillbefurtherconcentrated,andeconomicinequality,whichwasalreadydisturbinglylarge,willbecomeeven greaterattheendofthehealthcrisis.Employerswilllikelyimposewagecuts andausteritymeasuresuponworkersastherearemorepeoplecompetingfor fewerjobs.Schoolsystems,stategovernments,workingpeople,andsmallbusinessesareallsuffering.Andtheyaresomehowhopingonadreamandhope thatTrump,SteveMnuchin,andLarryKudlowwilldecidetochangetheir stripesandgivestatesfundingthatwilltrickledownor,perhaps,somedirect helptoformerlyworkingpeople.

Theirplan,though,seemstobetoopentheeconomydespitealackofavaccine, alackofexcellenttreatmentoptions,continuedshortagesinsupplies,andthe warningsfrompublichealthofficialsthatwearelargelyfollowingthepatternof responsestotheinfluenzapandemicofonehundredyearsago.Schools,malls,restaurants,factories,andpublicfacilitiesareopeningupwithoutadequateplansto ensuresocialdistancing.Capitalistpressuresforprofitsandworkingpeoplewho areeconomicallydesperatearepushingpoliciesandpushingpublichealthconcernsaside.U.S.capitalismisinacrisis(Wolff 2020e),andtheansweristo makepeoplegotoworkandshopinunsafeconditions.Itseemsthatweasa societyareagreeingtopushasecondwaveofthevirusinaquestforeconomicnormalization.AstheSecretaryoftheTreasurystatedduringthestockmarketplummetingonJune11th, “Wecan’tclosetheeconomydownagain” (Franck 2020).The choiceispresentedasmassunemploymentversusmassivespreadofthevirus.And aslongasthosedyingaremostlyblack,workingclass,NativeAmerican,prisoners, orthoseinnursinghomes,itseemslikemanyAmericansare finewiththemassivespread-of-the-virusoption.Butarethoseouronlyoptions?It’seasytounderstand theeconomicperspectivesandpoliciesofMnuchinandKudlow.Buthowcanwe bestunderstandthisacquiescencetoitwiththeseemingbeliefthatthebestwecan

hopeforisthattheywillsomehowchangetheirmindsifwejustaskthemenough times.Howdoesthatmakeanysense?

WOLFF :Iaskmyselfthatquestionallthetime.My ﬁrstpartofananswerisaquote fromafellowwhoseleadershipIhavealwaysadmired.AmannamedLenin.Lenin wasaskedbyhisassociatesatonepointthesamequestion:WhydotheRussian people,inthiscase,whydotheyacceptthehorriﬁcconditionsthatareimposed onthem?Whydotheyhaveatsarwhotheyrevereeventhoughhemaintains thesystemofoppression,ofpoverty,ofallthehorrorsofRussia?Whyarethe massofpeoplesopassive?Lenin’sanswerisveryfamous.Hesaid: “Fordecades nothinghappens,andthen,inafewweeks,decadeshappen.” Idon’thaveanexplanation.IwishIdid.ButIthinkthere’sakindofdeeppeople’swisdominallof this.Peoplemakeaprettycorrectestimateofwherethepowerlies.Andtheysee thatthepolice,themilitary,andthegovernmentareableandwillingtousereally extraordinaryforceagainstthem.

PartofthemareoutragedbywatchingthatcopputhiskneeonGeorgeFloyd’ s neck.Yeah,they’reoutraged,butthey’realsoscaredbecausetheyknow: Thatcould beme.Lotsofwhitepeople,whentheywereteenagers,hadinteractionswithcops. They’reveryawarethatthecopwhopulledthemoveronenightwhentheywere havingtoomuchfun,theycouldtellfromhisfaceandhisactionsthat,hadhebeen abletogetawaywithit,hewouldhavebeatthem.Hewascertainlyabusiveto them.Theyknow.

Andthat’sthejobofthepolice.They’resupposedtodothat,andtheydoit. They’renotsupposedtodoittothe “wrongpeople,” andtheymakemistakes, buttheydoit.Andpeopledounderstandthat,they’reintrouble,andifthey speakup,they’regoingtobeinmoretrouble.Sothey’rehesitanttodoit.It’ s notthattheyagreewithpolicemisbehavior.It’snotthattheythinkitoughtto happen.It’snoteventhattheydon’tsnapsometimeswhenithappenstothem. Butgettinggoing,insomeongoingwaytobegintodefinetheirlivesasalife ofstruggle Ithinkwehavetowait.Iwishwedidn’t,butIthinkwehaveto wait.AndbywaitingIdon’tmeanthingshavetogetworsebeforetheyget better.That’salwayswrongandnotnecessary.Whatyouneedmostly,Ithink, isacrediblealternative.Inmyexperience,whatpeopleneedtobecomeactivated ormotivatedistheyhavetoseesomethingthathasachance.Theydon’tneeda guaranteeofsuccess,butithastohaveachance.IfwhattheLeftprojectsissomethingwhich,whilecorrect,doesn’tlooklikeithasachance,you’renotgoingto havemanypeoplegowithyou.It’stoodangerous.They’renotgoingtodoit. Thatiswhyyouhavetohaveorganization.Oneofthethingspeoplehaveto seeisthatyouareorganized.Youhavepeoplecoordinating,dividingthework, gettingtheworkdone.Producingaproperleafletthatlooksright.Producinga demonstrationthat’sorganized,thathasmonitorskeepingthepoliceaway. Part ofthenotionthatitmightsucceedisthatitissufficientlyorganized.Americansarereallybadatthat. 576Lyon-CalloInterviewsWolff

TheyweresotraumatizedafterWorldWarII,inmyjudgement,bythedestructionofLeftorganizationsstartingin1947,andfollowedby ﬁfteenyearsofthesystematicdestructionoflabororganizations,oftheSocialistparties,ofthe CommunistParty,andofallthelittlegroupsthattheyspawned.Thislefta generalsenseontheleftinAmericanimaginationandinthepopulationthat youbetterseereallygoodorganizationoryouaregoingtobegettinginvolved withsomethingthatisgoingtobedestroyedlikeallthatwasdestroyed.Ithink thereismuchmoreofacollectivememoryofthatthanAmericanswilladmitto. IthinkthathalfthefamiliesofAmericahadanuncleorasisteroracousin whowasaSocialistorwasaCommunistorwasaCIOmilitant,andtheyheard thestoriesduringthefamilypicnicofwhathappenedtothosefamilymembers whenthegovernmentdrovethemoutofajobordeportedthemorworse. Thosestoriesarepartofourculture.Ithinkthat’soneofthereasonsthatthe youngnewleftthatkeepbeingbornareasattractedtoanarchismsofonetype oranother.Theyhaveintheirleftismanaversiontoorganizationaspartof theirinheritanceofwhatwasdone.

LYON- CALLO :Andit’snotjustthatperiodduringthe1950seither,right?Youalso hadgroupsliketheBlackPanthers,andtheyweresystematicallyattackedanddestroyed,withleaderskilledorimprisoned.Andthat’sjustoneexample.Asmy nineteen-year-oldsonbringsup,thisisacountrythatmurderedFredHampton andbombedanentireneighborhoodinPhiladelphiatodestroyMOVE.Why wouldanyonefeelsafe?

WOLFF :That’sright.TheyburnedawholesectionofthecitywithMOVE.They didn’tbothertoevenputthe ﬁresout.

LYON- CALLO :Sowhatyou’resayingisthat,forpeopletoact,theyneedtohavethe hopethattheactionisgoingtohaveachanceofsuccess.

WOLFF :Right.Otherwise,youareinvitingthemtoself-destruction,whichisnotan attractiveinvitation.

LYON- CALLO :Toactdifferently,todomorethanhopethatthoseinpowerdosomethingtohelp,therehastobesomeexampleofthatactionworking.Toallowyour desiresforsomethingdifferenttocometothesurface,thepossibilityofsuccessand somethingdifferenthastobeconceptuallyunderstoodaspossible,evenifnot likely.

WOLFF :That’sright.

LYON- CALLO :SoIamwonderingaboutyourthoughtsonthepresentmoment.You saidwehavetowait,butcouldorganizationbeemergingthatmightaidinmoving beyondliberalorneoliberalreformandtowardssystemicchanges?Doyouseesigns todaythatpossibilitiesofmovingbeyondliberalreformandtowardsthenecessary systemicchangestobuildalternativestocapitalismareemerging perhapsinBlack

LivesMatters,theSanderscampaign,nationalPoorPeople’sCampaign,Cooperation Jackson,orthereceptiontoyourownworkandthereactiontodiscussingdemocratizingtheworkplace?Isitpossiblethatthesemovementscanbegintoorganizetogethertocreatethosepossibilitiesforpeopletosee?

WOLFF :Ihaveneverbeenapessimist.MaybeI’mguiltyofsomedegreeofwishful thinking,butmaybethat’sanecessarypartofbeinginvolvedinsocialchange.You havetobelieveinthepossibility,andmaybeyouseesignsofit.Butletmestartvery personally.Wearenowcomingupon200,000YouTubefollowersforDemocracy atWork.Ihave100,000Twitterfollowers.Bytheway,Idon’tdothatbymyself.I haveateamofpeopleworkingwithme.Ineverdidradioortelevisioninmylife. FormostofmycareerteachingatUMass,orbeforethatYale,Iwouldgetaninvitationtogoonashowandspeakmaybeonceeverytwotothreemonths Ithink thatwasmorethanmostofmycolleaguesgot,becauseIwasalwayspolitically active.

Sostartingin2010 soit’snowtenyearsold everythingchanged.Thecrashof 2008changedthiscountryinveryfundamentalways.Ithinkwe’restillwatching theripples.Evenasweenteraworsecrisis,we’restillengagedwiththeripple effectsofthe2008crisis.Clearly,OccupyWallStreetwasoneresult.Clearly,the 2016BernieSanderscampaignwasanotherresult.AndI’maresult.Mylife changedfrombeingtheprofessoryouknewatUMasstobeingapublic-intellectual,activisttypeofperson.You’rethethirdinterviewI’vedonetoday,andIwillhave morethisafternoon.Andthat’smynormalday.Thathasnothingtodowithme.It hastodowiththeaudiencethatcreatesthedemandforwhatIdo,forwhatI deliver.Imagineyou’rethetypeofpersonwhowhistlesthesamejingleallyour lifesothepeopleclosetoyougetannoyedafterawhile:we’veheardthatjingle forever,juststopwhistling.Andthen,oneday,everyonegathersaroundand pleadsandbegswithyoutosingthejingle.Yousay, “ButIthoughtyouhated thatjingle,” andtheyreply, “Yeah,buttheworldhaschanged.” That’sme.I’ m notsayingwhatIdidn’tsaybefore.I’vebeenacriticofcapitalismformostof myadultlife.Justtogiveyouanidea.Nextmonth,youmayseealongarticlein themagazine Hustler,aboutSocialism,whichtheyaskedmetowriteforthem.I onlygiveyouthatasanexamplebecauseyou’regoingto ﬁndmyarticle betweenlotsofimagesofnakedwomen.AndwhydidIdoit?Becausethat’ san audienceIcan’treachnormally,forbetterorworse.ItturnsoutthatLarry Flynt,whoownsthatthing,followsmywork,andhelikesit.That’salloverthe UnitedStatesnow,ofteninsituationsyouwouldneverdreamof.AndIthink theygetit;theygetthatsomethinghasradicallyaltered.Theviewpointisnot thatthingshavechanged;theviewpointisbecomingdarker.It’sbecoming:everythingisfallingapart.Yougetitontheright,yougetitontheleft,yougetitevenin themiddlenow.Somewhereanawfullotofpeopleunderstandthatwearefalling apartasasociety.HavingtochoosebetweenTrumporBidenisproofthatwe’ re fallingapart.SoIamveryhopeful.

Letmegiveyouonemoreexample.Idon’tknowifyouevervisitedalittletown calledAshﬁeldwhenyouwereatUMass.It’smaybetwentyminutesnorthof Northampton,andIknowyouwereactiveinNorthampton,somaybeyou’ ve visited.

LYON- CALLO :Yeah,asmallruraltown.

WOLFF :Right.Ashfieldisanice,smallruralcommunitywithprobablyaboutone thousandresidents.LastSaturdayIwasthere,andIcouldn’tdrivedownthemain street.VirtuallytheonlystreetinAshfield.Why?Becausetherewasademonstration.AdemonstrationinAshfieldbythecitizensofAshfield.Therewereatleast 150peoplewalkingdownthemainstreet,carryinghandmadesigns.Agood numberofthemwereonthecityboardofselectmen,sothecopshadtobe careful.IwouldsaythatifthereweretenAfricanAmericanpeople,thatwould beahighestimate.Thedemonstrationwasoverwhelminglywhite,overwhelminglythirty-fiveyearsofageoryounger.Allcarrying “blacklivesmatter” orsigns aboutpolice.Itwasanamazingthing.WhenIspoketopeople,theycouldn’trememberinthehistoryofAshfieldsuchathinghappening.Andthisishappening incommunitiesacrosstheUnitedStates.Somethingwastouchedinthosepeople, overwhelminglywhite,thatthiswassomehowtheirissue.Iamfranklyamazedat whatIhear.

Twoweeksago,agroupofpeopleIknowsetupamotorcadearoundthecountry forpeopletomarch,aboutnotpayingyourrent.Theycountedforty-fivecitiestwo weeksagothathadamotorcadeofsomesortaroundarentstrike.Theydiditagain thislastweekendandreportedseventy-fivecities.Theygrew.I findthisspectacular.Thisisactivism,thisismobilization,thisispeoplefeelingthattheyhavetodo something.It’snotsomuchimportantwhattheydo.Theimportantthingisthat they’redoingsomethingandthatthey figureoutwhatworksandwhatdoesn’t. Theimportantthingisthatthey’vegottenofftheirrearendsandthey’renot justgoingtositandwatchitonTV.

LYON- CALLO :Andthereareeffortsinsomeofthesemovementstobuildlongertermorganizedplansoutoftheseefforts.Forexample,KaliAkunoandCooperationJackson.Youcoulddotheeasythingofsupportingtheircallforageneral strikeonthe ﬁrstdayofeachmonth.Butthatisjustthestartoftheirprogram ofactiontobuildcommunity-basedeconomies,totakebackcontrolofland,to democratizeworkplacesandbuildcooperatives,tobuilduniversalbasicservices forallpeople,toinstituteaGreenNewDeal,andmore.It’sthebringingpeople intodosomethingeasy,andthenthere’sbuildingformorethatcanbedone oncepeoplehavetheconcreteexampleofhavingparticipatedinanorganized fashionandnotbeenpunished.TheNationalPoorPeople’sCampaignisacting similarly.It’saboutgivingpeoplethecouragetohavehopeanddesiresothat theymightbeabletobeginworkingtogetherforthesystemicchangesneeded sowecanalllivewell.

WOLFF :IhaveworkedabitwithKaliAkunoandCooperationJackson.SoIknow aboutthatmuchmorethansomeoftheothers.ButIcantellyou firstofallthatKali Akunoisanextraordinaryleader.Iwouldn’tsayitifIdidn’tbelieveit.Hehasa verylong-termcommitment.Hehasaverylong-termstrategy.Heunderstands exactlywhatyoujustsaidabouttheimportanceofamomentaryact,butthe evengreaterimportanceoflong-termroots.Theyhaveenormousproblemsin Jackson,Mississippi.Theyhaveaveryhostilegovernor,averyhostilelegislature, andtheretheyareinthemiddleofthecapitalcityofthestateofMississippi.But theyareverycreative.Theyhaveaverygoodgroupofpeopleworkingwiththem. Yeah,ifwehadonehundredofthosearoundthecountry,wewouldbeinavery differentplacepolitically.AndKaliisveryattunedtoallianceswithothergroups aroundthecountry.Thereisn’tthego-it-alonementalitythatyousometimes find.I haveenjoyedworkingwithhim.Hehasaskedme,andI’vespokenwithhisorganizersdownthere.We’vehadconferences,andthat’smostlyhisinitiative.He wantedthemtohavesomeofthetheoreticalstuffthatwedotobepartoftheir training,partoftheirongoingefforts.Ifoundthatverysatisfying,butalsovery hopefulasI findsomuchofwhat’sgoingon.

LYON- CALLO :Ihaveaquestionthatmightappeartobealittlelesshopefulforjusta second.YouandIwouldpreferanembracingofSocialismorCommunism(and surveyssuggestthatmanyyoungpeopleintheU.S.wouldlikethataswell).But whatweseeinsomanyplacesacrosstheglobeisangryanddisenchanted peopleturningtoright-wingnationalistpopulism.WeseethisinBrazil,India, Turkey,thePhilippines,Hungary,theU.S.,risingpopularityofsuchmovements inmuchofEurope.Canyouofferanexplanationforwhysuchrightpopulist movementshavebeensosuccessfulpolitically evenwhentheyhavesuchpoor recordsofalteringtheconditionsthattheyrunupon?And,asweseeintheU.S. andBrazil,theyarealsoquiteawfulatkeepingcitizenswellwithintheongoing pandemic.Giventheseactualconditions,howdoweontheleftlearnfromthem andofferacompellingalternative?

WOLFF :Letmegiveyoumyanswer.Maybeitwillsurpriseyou.I’mgoingtobe blunttogettheideaacross.Ithinkmostofthepeopleinallofthecountries youmentionedhaveagut-levelunderstandingthatcapitalismstinks.Thatit servestherich.Thatitservesaminority,andthatitisattheirexpenseunless theycancleverlyescapefromthetrapandhaveadecentlifesomehow,somewhere,and ﬁndalittlenichesomewherewheretheywon’tbeexploited.They knowthat.

LYON- CALLO :Sothesenseoftryingtoescapewhenimaginingtransformingistoo difﬁcult.

WOLFF :Okay.Thentheyencounteredinthetwentiethcenturyavastmovement fromtheleft.Amovementoflaborunions.AmovementofSocialistpartiesor Communistparties.Amovementthatsaidcapitalismdoesn’twork,andmost

peopleagreed.Itwasamovementthatsaiditwasgoingtobethevehiclefor change.Itsaidthatifyoujoinus,ifyouvoteforus,wearegoingtochangethis systemsoitdoesn’tdotoyouwhatyouknowitdoestoyou.Andthepeopleresponded.Notallofthem,butaclearmassofpeoplewentthatwayandsupported Socialism.AnditwaspunctuatedbythehorrorofWorldWarII,andWorldWarI. Thosewereblamedoncapitalism,andrightlyso.Noothersystemhadeverhada worldwarwithsuchhorrors.Mymother,forexample,wasintroducedtoSocialism outofhergrowingupinGermanyinasocietythatwashorrifiedbywhathappened inWorldWarI.Hersisterbecameapacifistbecauseofthewar,andshebecamea bitofaSocialist.TheninWorldWarIIyouhaditagain,butthistimeithadsomethingthatthe firstwardidn’t.Namely,amassivemovementofresistancetothe Nazis.Italianresistance,Frenchresistance,Scandinavianresistance,andsoon. TheleadersofthoseresistanceswerealwaysSocialists,Communists,leftists. Theybecameheroes.Andintheaftermathofthewar,themassoppositiontocapitalismwascapturedbytheLeftbecauseofthehistoryoftheSecondWorldWar. TheearlypostwargovernmentsinplaceslikeFranceandItalyhadCommunists holdingcabinetpositions.Theyhadto.Sowhathappenedafterthatpostwar period?Here’sthecruxofmyargument.TheLeftdidnotknowhowtoachieve whatthemassofpeoplehadbeenledbythemtoexpect.Theycouldn’t.It’snot altogethertheirfault.Itwasthestrengththeycouldnotachieve.Itwastheinfluencetheycouldnotwield.Anditwasalotofmistakestheyalsomade.Partofthat wasgettingcaughtupintheforeignpolicyoftheSovietUnion.Itwasafailureof nerve.ItwasthesuccessfuleconomicgrowththatWesternEuropeandtheUnited StateshadcomingoutofWorldWarII.Longstoryshort,theLeftcouldnotrealize itsproject.AndevenwhereSocialistsbecamethegovernment,theydidn’tdovery much.Imean,yes,inEuropetheygotnationalhealth,theygotsubsidizedhousing andsubsidizedfamilylifeandsomesubsidizedfood.Sotheygotsomethingsthat helped,buttheydidnotfundamentallychangethecapitalistsystem,whichiswhat theyhaddefinedthemselvesasdoing.Andso,herecomesthepunchline.Ithink themassofpeopleabandonedthem.Outofdisappointment.Outofdisinterest. Outofanger.Alittlebitofallofthem.Andsaid,we’redonewithyou.Youpromisedandyoudidn’tdeliver.Andwe’renotpayingattentiontoyou.Andifthere’ s anotherpoliticianwhogivesusthispromisethatthere’sgoingtobechange,he orshebettergiveusadifferentversionthanyougaveusbecauseweain’tgoing withyou.

SoalongcomesMarineLePenortheNorthernLeagueinItalyoranyofthose. Theycomealong,andtheybasicallyborrowfromtheoldSocialistplatform. We’regoingtochangeitall,butit’sallgoingtobedoneinthenameofthe nation.Buthere ’sthehopefulpartofthis.They’regoingtobeevenlesssuccessful thantheSocialistsbecausethey’renoteventryingtogetgreaterbene ﬁ tsforthe massofpeople.Theyaresoconnectedtothebusinesscommunitythatrunsthese societiesthatthey’renotdoinganything.They’renotgoingtoimprovethewages. They’renotgoingtodoanyofthat.Somyguessisthatthey’repavingthewayfor

anevengreaterdisappointmentfromthemassoftheworkingclasswiththem. Butthere ’sariskhere.Theriskisthatthemassoftheworkingclasswill throwupitshandsandsay, “They’reallfakers ”—theLeftandtheRight.The secondriskisthattheywillgobackintothehandsofthesamecompromising Socialiststhattheywerewithbefore.Andthenthey’regoingtogetthesamedisappointmentagain.Imean,EmmanuelMacronusedtobeamemberoftheSocialistPartyandhadacabinetpositioninthelastSocialistgovernment.He’ sas muchofaSocialistasIvankaTrumpisaSocialist.It’spurepoliticalopportunism ofthecrassestsort.

Here’sanotherrisk.Youmightseeanexplosionofantifa,anarchism,forakind ofadesperatesearchforworking-classpolitics,whodon’ttrusttheconventional Leftanddon’ttrusttheconventionalRight,allforgoodreasons,whoknow exactlywhotheirproblemis.It’sthebusinesscommunity,andyoumaysee againwhatyouhadinItalyafewdecadesago,whichisaguerilla,anarchistic, bitter,militantefforttotopplethesystem.Bringingdownthekindofrepression thosethingsusuallybringdown.

Theseareallrisksofoursituation.ButIwouldn’ texchangeitforanything. That ’ swhatmovementinvolves.Iwouldevengosofarastosaythatpartof whatishappeningnow thatwhatishappeningnowintheUnitedStatesisa kindofdisappointmentwithTrump.An awfullotofpeoplewantedtobelieve thatthispeculiarmixofRepublicanswithaguywhoseemedtohavesomesympathyforpeopleoutofwork remember,hewasgoingtobringbackmanufacturingandrevivethecoalmines.Heranonsomekindofcluethatmassesof workingpeoplearesuffering.PartofTrump’sproblemisthathe’ swhatI’ m talkingabout.Working-classelementsthatwereangrythattheDemocratic Partyhadbetrayedthemanddidn’tgivethemwhattheyvotedfor theDemocrats,forgenerations andthenwenttoTrump,they’renowseeingthatMr. Trumpisafaker.TheynowseethatTrumpisn ’tgoingtogetthemonestep further.Probably,Trumpwillgetthemawholelotfurtherfromwherethey wanttobe.They’ realittlebitashamed,andthey’realittlebitchagrined,and they’ reslowlyturningagainsthim.

YousaidearlierabouttheinterestinSocialism.Yeah,Iseethesamepolls.But I’vegottotellyou,andIknowthisfromallthequestionsI’maskedontheradio,on television,andonourwebsite.Itisfarlessastatementaboutinterestin,orcommitmenttosocialism.Whatitis,isastatement: “Ihatecapitalism.Capitalism doesn’twork.Capitalismisnothelpingme.Capitalismhasbetrayedthepromises Ithoughthadbeenmadetomebymyparents,bymyminister,bymyrelatives,by myteachers,thatIshouldworkhardandstudyhardandgetthedegreeandthen theAmericanDreamwouldfallintomylapandI’dhaveanicecarandayard.” They’reangryatallofthat: “I’mreallyangry.Andyouknowwhatreallymakes myoldergenerationangryisifIsayIlikeSocialism.SoI’ m gonnasaythatasa wayofsaying,I’mdonewithyou.” Theythink, “IknowBernieisahellofalot moreinterestingthanJoeBiden,andevenmygrandmothercanseethat.”

LYON- CALLO :Right.It’softenmoreofastatementofwhatwedon’twant,butI’ m notsureifpeopleknowthatSocialismisactuallywhattheydowant.

WOLFF :Yes.Soourjob,yourjob,myjob, RM’sjob,istogivesubstance,togivea hardrealitytowhatsayingyoulikeSocialismactuallymeans.

LYON- CALLO :Iwouldagree.OneoftheinterestingpartsislookingatCOVID-19. Whichtwocountriesareclearlythebiggestfailures?BrazilandtheU.S.Both areledbyright-wingnationalistpopulistswhosaidwhenrunningthatthey weregoingtooffersomethingnewforthepeople.Andthatisclearlyalie,as neithercaresaboutworkingpeople.Andnoweveryoneknowsthat.

WOLFF :Buteveryoneknewitbefore.BolsonaroistheBrazilianTrump.And Trumphasbeenarich,empty-headedplayboyallhislife.There’snothingthere.

LYON- CALLO :Butatleastheappearedtonotbedismissivetothesufferingof workingpeopleinthemiddleofthecountrylikeClintonwasin2016.Clinton ranacampaignwhereitwasclearshedidn’tcareaboutthelivesofworking people.AndTrumpsaidtothemthattheymattered.Mostpeopleprobably didn’tbelievethat,butmaybeenoughwereabletoconvincethemselves tobelievewhattheydeepdownknewwasnottrue.Nowworkingpeopleare confrontedwiththetruththatnobodycaresaboutthem.Sothereisalotof anger.Therearealotofpeoplewhoareveryangry,sad,andfullofdespair. Andthequestionis,wherecantheygo?Thereisn’treallyanorganizedLeft toofferapath.

WOLFF :Iagreewithyou.AndIblametheLeft.IalwaysbelievedwhatI’maboutto say,butIknowmostofmyfellowleftistsdidn’t.Oneofthegreatachievementsofthe Berniecampaignin2016,anduntilhedroppedoutin2020,hadtheenormous servicetoustoteachpeoplethatmillionsuponmillionsofpeopleinAmericaare perfectlycomfortablevotingforapoliticianwhosays, “I’maSocialist.” Weare notalone.Wehavelotsofsupport.Sowherethehellaretheorganizationsthat oughttobecollectingthemoneyandthevotesandtheactivismofallofthosemillionsofpeople?That’sourjob.

IfIcansaysomethinginparticulartothe RM typeofaudience.Wehavesomethingspecial.WhatSocialismmeansformostAmericansthatIencounterisabout thegovernment.Thegovernmentisgoingtodothis,orthegovernmentisgoingto dothat.It’sgoingtopayforyourhealthinsurance;it’sgoingtogiveyoufree tuition.AndthentheypointtoScandinaviaorWesternEuropewheregovernmentsdoallthat.Igetit.Butthat’snotwhatwemean.Butthat’swhatAmericans havebeentaughtforatleastseventy-ﬁveyears.That’swhyIgetquestionslike, “Isn’tthepostofﬁceSocialism? ” What?No,it’snot.That’swhenIgivethem whatIconsidertheAESAor RM contribution.Isay,no,Socialismisareorganized workplace.It’saboutthetransformationofthosedayswegotoworkformostof ouradultlives.It’sabouttransformingthat,sothatwearegoingtobeincharge; workersaregoingtobecollectivelyrunningtheseenterprisesandnotjust

workinginthem.That’showSocialismisgoingtotransformeverythingfromthe bottomup,becauseit’sgoingtotransformtheworkplace.

Andhere’swhatIhavelearned.First,theyhaveneverheardthisbefore.Thisisa renditionofSocialismthatisaltogethernewforthem.Butithasasecondenormousadvantagebesidesbeingnew.Thesecondadvantageisthattheyhavenot hadseventy-ﬁveyearsofindoctrinationagainstthatideaofSocialism.Oh,they cantellyouterriblestoriesabouttheSovietUnionorChinaorCubaorhow thegovernmentoppressesyouorthegovernmenttakesawayyourcivilliberties. Theyhavehadallthattraining.Butwhenitcomestoarguingagainstworker democracyintheworkplace,theydon’thaveanytraining.Theyjustlookatme. AndI’mtalkingabouttherightwing.Igoonright-wingtalkshows.Andthey havenoanswer.Myguessisthat,aswegetstronger,theywillcomeupwith bettercritiques.Butrightnow,we’vegotaclear,cleanshot.Itmakesmecry thatwedon’ttakemoreadvantageofit.

LYON- CALLO :Andit’sverycompellingtostudents,atleastatmyfairlyconservativeschoolinMichigan.WhenIgettothesectionsaboutdemocratizingthe workplaceandintroducethemtospacesthatmightbeseenasspacesofpossibilityandhope,theyareshockedbyMondragon,andthenIaskthemtoconsidertheireducationandwhytheyhaveneverlearnedaboutthislarge,successful democraticcorporation.Orthemanyworker-runcooperativesinconservative northernItaly.Likeyousay,theyareshocked.Wemightthenlookatthe factory-recoverymovementinArgentinaoreffortstobuildcooperativelivesin ColumbiaorChiapas.Thosearefaraway,though.Butthenwemightlookat theEvergreenCooperativesinClevelandorcooperativesinChicago.Ifit’ spossibleinOhioorIllinois,whynotinMichiganorIndiana?WecallthisademocracyintheUnitedStates,butwhereisthisdemocracy?Doesanyoneyouknow havedemocracyintheirworkplace?Howabouttheirhomesorschools?Could thosebecomedemocraticsites?Andthentheybegintoimagineaverydifferent world.Asyousay,shouldthatnotbeourfocus?

WOLFF :Right.Andwhatwoulditlookforayoungpersontoimaginehisorherlife insuchaworld?Socialismhasalwayshadtoprojectavisionlikethat.That’swhy peoplegavetheirlivesincountlessSocialistorCommunisteffortsaroundthe world.Theyweren’tdoingitforanextrasixdollarsattheendoftheweek. Comeon!Theyweredoingitbecauseofenormousimagesintheirmindsabout, whatabetterworldforthem,fortheirchildren,andalltherestofus.Letmebe clear.Ithinkthatifwecanprojectthatimagesuccessfully,wecanbuildavery powerfulmovementinthiscountry.

Look,evenBerniehadaplatform.Itwasverybriefandveryinadequate.But hehadaplankinhisplatformaboutco-opsandhowhewouldsupportand extendco-ops.Itwasnamby-pamby,butitwasthere.Itwasthereinpart becausepeoplelikeushaveconnectionswithhimandhiscampaign.You canbuildfromthat.

LYON- CALLO :Onelastquestion.Let’sreturntothatthemeofbeingatwar.Trump voicedearlyonthatwe’reatwaragainstthevirusandweallneedtobetogetherin thiswar.Therewaseventalkforamomentofenactinguniversalbasicincomefor thedurationofthecrisis.Ofcourse,thatdidnothappen. “We’reallinthistogether ” inthewaragainstthevirusbecame, “Youhaveindividualresponsibilitytoact tostaywellindividually.” AsyoupointedoutintheJune1st EconomicUpdate, perhapsthesickestversionofthisistheadvicetohomelesspeopleonwhatthey individuallyneedtodotokeepthemselveswell(Wolff 2020b).

Thisrhetoricalshiftwasaccompaniedbyamassiveeconomicstimulus packagewithoutanycommitmentofsupportforall notevenacommitment tohavingapotentialvaccinebeingavailabletoall.Asweknow,thegovernment’sinterventionhashelpedcertainsegmentsofthestockmarketto ﬂourish, suchthatbillionaires ’ wealthincreasedby$282billioninjusttwenty-threedays duringtheinitialweeksofthelockdownswhileworkingAmericansbecame evenmoreeconomicallyandemotionallyinsecure.Morerecently,theuprisings inthestreetsaroundracismandpoliceviolenceagainindicatethatwearefar fromallinittogetherintheU.S.

YouhavetalkedabouttheclasswartodayintheU.S.Wehavehaddecadesof embracingprivatization,deregulation,automation,andthepromotionofthefree marketinthequestforgrowth,efﬁciency,andso-calledfreedomandindividual responsibilities.Bothmajorpoliticalpartieshaveembracedoneversionor another,andthathasproducedamassivetransferofwealthtothewealthiest. Asyouwrite,capitalismiscertainlycurrentlyincrisis(Wolff 2020e).Onecan justlookattheescalatingdebt,thenumberofpeopleandbusinessesnotpaying rentsorloans,ortheopioidandmentalhealthcrisestoseethis.

Iwouldsuggestthattherehasalsobeenawaronblackmalesforthelastseveral decades,sometimesreferredtoasthewarondrugs.OtherssuggestthattheU.S. hasbeenatwaragainstculturalpluralism,indigenouspeoples,peopleofcolor, andanyorganizedLeftforcenturies.OntheJune1,2020,issueof Economic Update,youhighlightedaFederalReservereportabouthow40percentofAmericansmakingunder$40,000losttheirjobsinarecentsix-weekperiod.Themass unemploymentislargelyimpactingpoorer,alreadyeconomicallyprecarious people.InyourdiscussionwithCornellWest,youalsomentionhowwomen andblackandbrownpeoplehavebeenhurtmorethanmalesandwhitepeople ingeneralfromCOVID-19(Wolff 2020b).Weknowthatpeoplewhoareolderor havesomepreexistingconditionsaremostlikelytodiefromCOVID-19,but thereisalsomuchevidencethatNativeAmericansandworking-classblackand Latinxpeoplearemorelikelytodiefromthisvirus.AndastheworkofpublichealthscholarslikeDavidWilliams(2020)hasshown,thereisincreasingevidence demonstratinglinksbetweenthestressesoflivingeverydaywithracialandclass inequalityandthevasthealthdisparitiesintheUnitedStates.Itisnotindividual behaviorsbutstructuresofviolenceproducingthedisparateeconomicandhealth outcomesfromCOVID-19.

Isthereawaythatwecanthinkthroughthelensofoverdeterminationandantiessentialistanalysestoconsiderthatwhatisimportantisclassandraceand more?Doyouhavethoughtsonhowtobalancethesemultipleentrypointsfor ouranalysesofclassandraceandotherfactors?Canthathelpustohelpyoung peoplewhoareangryanddisillusionedtoimaginepossibleotherworlds?Can suchananalysishelpustobothanalyzethecurrentcoronavirusmomentandto thinkthroughhowtoactuallybuildalliances,worktogether,andliveinthis worldtogether?

WOLFF :Idon’thavereallyanythingtoaddtothatconversationexceptwhatappearedtomeearlyonwhenSteveandIwere firsttryingtoworkthesethingsout andwhatoccurredtousthen.Ihaven’treallymademuchprogressbeyondit.It alwaysstruckmethatthelogicofoverdetermination,therejectionofanessentialism,meansthatthoseofuswhoaremoreinterestedintheclassdimensionthan others,forwhateverpeculiarreasonsofourhistory Iwasn’tbornthisway.Theinfluencesinmylifemademefocusonclass.Iamnotsayingit’sgoodorbad;that’sjust whoIam.Butit’salwaysbeencleartomethattheconditionsofexistenceofany particularclassstructure forexample,thecapitalistclassstructurethatIam opposedtoincludescertainkindsofculturalconstructs,oneofwhichisrace,the notionthatpeoplecanbedividedintosomesortofdifferentgroupsbasedonpigmentsinyourskin.Iunderstandthatthosekindsofculturalformations,likereligions,arepartoftheconditionsofexistence.Theyarepartofwhatmakes capitalismexistandsurviveandreproduceovertime.IthinkIcanshowhow racismagainstpeoplewithdarkerskinhasplayedthatroleforalongtimeinsupportingandsustainingcapitalism.So,therefore,racismismyenemy.Ihaveto changetheseracializednotions.Ihavetoproblematizetheconceptofrace.Ihave toexplaintopeoplethatitisnotagiven,thatthereisnothingaboutusashuman beingsthatsuggestsweoughttobeclassifiedinasignificantwayaroundthe pigmentinourskin.

Somyenemyisracism,andnowIdiscoversomething.Idiscoverthatthereare otherpeoplelikemewhohaveadifferenthistory.Theywerebroughtupinsucha waythattheissuethatmostinterestedthemwasracialdiscriminationorracism. Andthat’swhattheirfocusis,buttheygetit,likeIdo,maybewiththetheoryof overdetermination,ormaybetheyjustdothiswithoutself-consciousness.But theycometotheconclusionthatcapitalism,aparticularclassstructure,reinforces theracismthattheywanttogetridof.Wenowcanmakeadeal.I’mgonnahelp you ﬁghtracismandyou’regonnahelpme ﬁghtcapitalismsothatwegetadifferentsystemthatneitherneedsnorallowsracismortheclasssystemoftheexploitationofonepersonbyanother.Wemakeadeal.Ihelpyouandyouhelpme. Nobodyissubordinatinganybody.Nobodyisclaimingthattheirentrypointis therightone.Thisisacoalitionoranalliancebuiltontheunderstandingthat thekindofeconomicsystemwehaveneedsracismandwillbeweakenedifwe candefeatracism,andthekindofracismwehavewillbeatleastweakenedif

wecandefeatcapitalism.Noguarantees.Nobodyhastobelievethat,ifwegotridof racism,thatcapitalismwouldbegone,orvice-versa.It’sadeal.Andthedealhasto behonored,andthedealhastobeworkedthroughperiodically.AndIsaythe samethingtofeministsonthatissueorecologistsonthatissue.We’vegota dealtomake.Andifwemakethedeal,wewillhelpeachotherintermsofour goals,butwewillalsobuildtheorganizationwithoutwhichnoneofusare goingtorealizeourgoals.

That’sthedeal.And,youknow,I’veoffereditmanytimes.AndIwouldsaythat mostofthetimetheydonotacceptit.Irealizethat’spartofmyproblem;that’spart ofourproblem.Weliveinaculturethatisverydeeplycommittedtoessentialism.I usedtomakeajoke.SteveandIusedtomakeajokethatwehaveahardertime withourleft-wingaudiencesgettingacrossoverdeterminationthangettingacross thenotionofclassastheproductionanddistributionofsurplusratherthanthe government.Theycanmoreeasilytakethisnewconceptofclassthantheycan takeoverdetermination.It’sbizarreandhasbeensurprisingtous,butit’sbeen true.Oneofthereasonsthatpushingoverdeterminationisvaluableisthat I think,Ihope isthatittricklesdownintothisgut-levelquestionofhowwe buildorganizationsthatarepowerfulbydrawinginpeoplewhoseprimaryinterestsaredifferent,butarenotafraidofthatdifference.

Forexample,oneofthereasonswhyIlikeKaliAkunoisthathegetsthat.His primaryissueisAfricanAmericanpeopleandorganizingthemandworkinginan AfricanAmericanmajoritycitylikeJackson,butheunderstandsthatIneedhim andheneedsme.Wegetit.

LYON- CALLO :Andthenwecanbuildcoalitionsandalliancestoworkonthemany aspectsofourcollectivestruggles.

WOLFF :Absolutely.There’snooption.

LYON- CALLO :Ifourgoalisn’ttoberightandthatourinterestistheessentialor primaryone.

WOLFF :Right.We’vegottogetridofthat.That’sakiller.And,bytheway,that’ s oftentheopeningwedgeforanydisruptivepeople.Whetherthey’retherebyaccidentortheyaretherebecausetheyareworkingforsomegovernmentagency. That’sthewedgetodestroycoalitions.It’sbeenaverybigburdenonusonthe leftthatwehavetogetoutfromunder.

LYON- CALLO :Evenwithmyworkonhomelessness,I ’ veseenthat.Ithappens whenpeoplewanttofocusononeaspectasthedeterminingfactor.Notas oneofmanypossibleentrypointsthatweneedtobuildalliancestoworkon butasthedeterminingfactor,asthoughalltherestdoesnotmatter.Itmakes alliancesimpossible.

WOLFF :That’sright.Howdoweteachpeoplethatyoucanhaveyourentrypoint, youcanhavewhat’smostimportanttoyou.That’snotaproblem.It’showyoudeal

withpeoplewhodisagreewithyou.Howdoyoudisagreeonentrypointsbutwork togetherstill?

LYON- CALLO :That’sthechallengewiththesetimesoflivingwithCOVID-19.There aresomanyareasofimpactandpossibleentrypointsforacting,butoneofthemis thatthereisthisprofoundsenseofdespairandhopelessnessamongsomany people.

WOLFF :And,ofcourse,havingtostayathomeduetothevirusonlymakesallof thatworse.Youareevenmoreisolated.Which,ofcourse,makesthenecessaryalliancesevenmoredifﬁcult.

LYON- CALLO :Ofcourse.Interestingandchallengingtimes.Thankyousomuchfor talkingwithmetoday.

References

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Williams,D.R. 2020. “StressWasAlreadyKillingBlackAmericans:Covid-19IsMakingIt Worse.” WashingtonPost,13May. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/05/ 13/stress-was-already-killing-black-americans-covid-19-is-making-it-worse. Wolff,R.D. 2020a. “AskProf.Wolff:MarcoraLawintheUS?” DemocracyatWork,5June. https://www.democracyatwork.info/askprofwolff_marcora_law_in_the_us?fbclid=IwAR2 mDMk1AOIep_eyaXIvpFMP89GfyskFpdYfOoByjZs59wZh5nXoSt-sNv8.

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