A conversation with Jamie Bugler & Dave Robbins, from Vapour Design Leeds.
VAPOUR VAPOUR VAPOUR VAPOUR VAPOUR VAPOUR VAPOUR
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INTRO & CONTENTS
A conversation with Jamie Bugler & Dave Robbins, from Vapour Design Leeds.
03 - Who are Vapour? 07 - 3 things you couldn’t live without? 08 - If you weren’t in design, what do you think you would’ve ended up doing?
20 - The idea behind the name? 21 - Successful early promotion? 23 - What makes a project most challenging?
09 - What would a normal day entail?
25 - Favourite project you have worked on?
11 - What was it that initially attracted you to design?
27 - What is the turn around time usually for projects?
11 - Was it the traditional route of university?
29 - How do you feel now about keeping talent up in the North?
13 - After uni, was it plain sailing finding a job? 14 - Should you pay interns? 17 - The birth of Vapour 19 - Were there any practical issues in particular which you struggled with??
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I was lucky enough to spend the afternoon with the lads in their Leeds based studio, which is located at the Old Brewery on High Court Lane, by the canal. They were very open to all of my questioning, with content focusing on their more personal routes and experiences into the design industry.
31 - Could you see you guys branching out at all in the future? 31 - Any advice for any young designers such as myself?
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But first, who actually are Vapour?
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ABOUT VAPOUR
Vapour are a Leeds based Graphic Design Agency specialising in digital design, brand design and everything that falls in between. They produce standout creative solutions for clients across all formats - such as websites and applications, social media, printed brand collateral, flyers, brand identity, illustration, printed marketing and much more. They live and breathe design. They see every project as an opportunity to produce something that improves the brands they work with, as well as themselves as designers.
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THE STUDIO
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Interview, Design & Photos by Sam Hughes
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3 THINGS?
3 things you couldn’t live without?
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Sam: To start off gents, I want to get to know a bit about you as individuals, so Jamie we’ll go to you first. Can you list me 3 things you couldn’t live without? Jamie: It has to be music, fun and my computer! Dave: Ok I reckon my computer too, suppose I have to say my kids (laughs), iPad - purely for drawing, and burgers! S: Good choices! So if you weren’t in design, what do you think you would’ve ended up doing? J: Probably something music based, I would’ve hoped, I used to DJ when I was younger, I used to run parties as well which led to doing this now I’d say. S: I saw that you’d done some work with the likes of LWE, and Carl Cox’s Safehouse Management; does this link at all? J: Well yeh, we’ve always had quite a strong foot in the door when it comes to the dance music industry, from what I used to do especially. So in answer to your question, yeh it would have probably been something music related just because of the amount of connections I made in that industry, some of which when I was doing the design for my own parties, and then naturally as you’ll know you meet people - “ahh you’re a designer, alright you can do this” or “I know this guy”, etc - It went from there to doing all the big nights in Ibiza. I directed for Erick Morillo over there and then that was in-line with what pushed me to set this place up! D: Before I started on my first design job, I was offered a bar managers job, so probably something bar-related, maybe brand-ambassador or something. But yeh I was working in retail by day, whilst I was working the bars by night.
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S: So in comparison, what would your actual job description be now? What would a normal day for you guys entail? J: My job description would be... D: The chief gaffa! J: Yeah (laughs), the big bossman! Seriously, creative director is what I'm known as, not that I ever actually address myself as that! But that involves dealing primarily with all of our clients - unless there is specific accounts that we have, for example, Dave looks after all the Alchemist stuff, so I have very little input other than development and feedback. But my role now that we've grown a bit includes the over-arching management of the projects, creative input with everything thats going on, and generating new business as well from the inbounding enquiries we had coming in - so its quite a mixed bag! You know a lot of this stuff is quite a step away from where I've come from and what I am as a designer by trade - so there will never be anything I love more than getting my hands dirty and doing design-work, but nowadays I realise I can't do as much of that, as the business needs to be propelled. I like to see it as the grease which keeps the wheels moving so to speak! So that's my day!
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YOUR NORMAL DAY?
D: And well you know it and do it better than anyone else don't you, so that's why its your stuff so that's why you do the sales and things like that.. J: Yeh its all of our stuff, it used to be just mine, but nowadays I couldn't run the business without these guys, so I've become more of the figure-head now who you know, has to keep all the clients happy, go on all the meetings and do all the boring stuff and then these guys do all the nice bits usually! But as long as I know that I'm making sure theres lots of nice work coming in I know I'm doing my job properly and we seem to be doing alright at that at the moment, so yeh thats what my day to day job can involve! I hope that Dave is going to say something just as nice! (laughs) D: Well as I look after the Alchemist, day to day runnings include really checking they have everything they need and its all up to date and distributed to the right guys; then dependant on what other projects we've got going on I'll be checking with J to see if there's any new bits coming in that he needs me to look at. We do work well as a team, we always have input on eachothers work at some point of the design process, no-ones
J: Yeh, we are definitely quite fluid, so like if someone starts a project and ideally they're in a good place with it, its all good for them to continue it. We're quite fluid in the sense that we all have similar skillsets yet developed in different areas - so Dave and Tony are very good illustrators, Mark's very good on Photoshop, I'm more like Mark in terms of my approach on Photoshop, and then Adam is pure development. There'll always be lots of jobs going on, then its just a case of when someone has a window in their schedule they can show how someone else
can pick up on where they have left off. Initially we can all work different concept ideas, all chipping in, then when we get feedback from the client and go down a specific road with it, one person (usually whos concept 'won') can then pick that up from that point to begin developing it. But then for instance if that person becomes really busy with something else, we always ensure someone else is able to just pick that back up for them. Theres always maybe 3, 4, 5 background, big projects running simultaneously and then thats partnered with the day to day churn of everything else thats going on, so it can all get quite hard to prioritise just one of them!
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really sat doing there own thing, its always a collective working on things.
D: If someones working on something, there will be lots of feedback to help sculpt it into a better project to represent us as a whole. Sometimes when you stare at something for ages, you don't always spot something that might be a good change..
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J: Troubleshooting and fresh eyes really are the best thing in our design process! I always get to the point in the day were I just have to leave it there, and then the minute I then come back to it I just have that fresh viewpoint and can see immediately which bits need development & refine.
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THE PAST?
S: So, going into a bit more depth into how you've got to were you are today.. What was it that first attracted you to design, obviously this may have been from a  young age, were there any particular figures which were very inspirational to you? J: I think for me, when I was growing up, I always had a pencil in my hand. I'm a lonely child, so whenever I wasn't out with my mates I'd literally just be laid down in my front room with a pen and pad, drawing relentlessly. I just use to draw everything. I always knew in my head, that that was what I was good at, I wasn't hugely academic, but I always got by and wasn't too bad. But that was the one thing I was always good at,
and from a really young age I always knew that was my route, I just didn't quite understand how to turn it into an actual career. I realised as I started going to school, that graphic design was in effect, a way to turn that into a living. From that point on really, even before considering myself as a fanboy of any designers, I knew this roughly was the route for me. S: So did you take the traditional route of university then?? J: Yeh, well i went to art college first and did a foundation course, and then off the back of that went and studied for 3 years on a Graphic Design course, came back and started an agency over in Huddlesfield called Manifest..
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S: Awesome, but we'll get onto that in a moment if thats alright, how about you Dave? D: Similar sort of thing, always when I was younger I was just drawing all the time, which hasn't changed much now, Im still always sketching whenever I get time. But yeh, then just going through the usual routes at school doing art, and then when I got back to college I was able to explore a bit of photography as well as art. There was also a design course which allowed me to touch on all the various areas from 3D to the more traditional graphic design. This is when I realised that I was better at all that than business studies or anything else I was doing so decided do an art foundation like J and then onto uni. From then it was a case of finding somewhere which I fitted into. J: I think in terms of actual designers I was influenced by, at the time I was at uni, had to include the likes of Neville Brody, John Maeda, David Carson.. S: So the new and more post-modern kind of side to it all?? J: Yeh very much so, from a design perspective they were leading the way in that progressive, kind of typographically based confident and bold style, which very much so at the time was the cusp of progressive, creative design. With obviously the likes of Maeda being more digital based. Nothing all to weird and wonderful if I'm honest... D: Well a lot of my influences when I was at uni did come directly from music, which is why I focused on this for my dissertation. I absolutely love music, like we all do in here, so I focused a lot on the artwork which surrounded the music industry at the time - how music influences art, and art the music vice versa! So I think in terms of design, its not a case of following any one particular design route, its about sampling the best bits from design and culture in general. J: Now looking back it is obvious how we can be influenced by everything really! We all have particular passions in graffiti and street art, fashion has always been a huge influence, just design in all aspects really. It's not just Graphic Design for me, its everywhere, architecture, all the things you as a young creative will take influence from. You can see it everywhere now, from a beautiful label in a shop through to a beautiful building you work past.
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13 INTERNS? PPP
S: After university, in terms of finding of work, did you find it was plain sailing? Were you able to get any quick and easy experience?
live in London or something, but it just wasn't do-able in terms of finance and how much I was actually going to get paid.
D: I think now, there are so many more design agencies about, however not directly making it easier. The first agency I worked at was not so much an agency but a printers, because I found a lot of places wanted experience, and its the annoying thing of how are you meant to get that experience without actually getting in anywhere!? So yeh I went to work at a printers were we worked at a fast pace, it was quite tough but once I got in there, it was a good place to get experience because I got to know all about the printing specifics - I was able to set the print files up straight away and understand how the printers actually wanted it. I probably learnt more in my first year there, in terms of how the industry worked, than I did at uni. It was a case of thinking on your feet and learning quickly, you had to be constantly creative so it got you in a good mindset. I think it can be quite tough, but you have to keep your options open. Maybe the first job might not be that ideal job you imagined, like I had in my head when I left uni. I pictured working on a really cool magazine, going away to
S: Well theres that huge question now, should you pay interns? Someone at LCA has actually started a magazine which has taken off called Intern - he is tackling this whole question of whether you should get paid or not for sitting in at design studios as a student. In my opinion, it depends on what your role involves, for a week or 2 you wouldn't expect a big pay, but if you were doing a full period of internship you would for sure.
14 D: I actually got offered a 3 month internship at GQ, I didn't take it but I just physically couldn't afford to live in London for 3 months, as I had no friends or family living down there at the time so I would have had to rent somewhere alone, there’s transport costs on top, there was just no way, so I just had to say no!
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J: Personally I would like to be paying an intern myself, it’s the decent thing to do, it’s a mutually beneficial thing, and if you train them and mentor them well enough to get into a standard were you can sell their work then I just think it is only fair to pay them. We've never actually taken an intern in, purely because I've never though I could really dedicate to what they would actually need. You can’t just get someone and leave them in the corner, they're there to learn - they will learn generally through being in the environment, but it would not be enough. We are quite a relaxed small team here, so everyone knows what they need to do. I could quite happily provide an intern with a shadow project and see how they got on, but if in effect they are producing work which I can bill out, to me, I would definitely want to do that, I know whats it like, if they'd invest themselves strongly like I know they probably would I’d feel like a complete dick if I didn't (laughs).
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THE PAST?
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When I first came out of uni, I got myself into a little agency who are now a big agency, probably to a real similar size to what we are now. It was great, I cut my teeth on more corporate design, still creative though, not too bad. But at the same time, I was doing all the music stuff outside of work, so I’d go home every night and I’d have maybe like 4-5 hours worth of personal dance music work to be getting on with. So I was constantly learning the corporate aspects and the executional aspects of design in my day job, but then at night I’d be able to transfer that through to the dance music work. S: So that was almost like freelance work on the side? J: Yeh and that naturally started to steadily build, I was out all the time whilst I was still young - constantly meeting new people, and meeting bigger promoters and bigger nights, and suddenly I’d be doing their work too. It was to the point were I was coming home and working till 2am flat out, constantly on my machine. It got to the point were I realised the money I was earning from that meant I could probably sack the day job off. I was doing alright there as well, but I just decided to start working from home with my two cats and thats where Vapour essentially started!
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17 THE BEGINNING? PPP
The birth of Vapour.. Interview, Design & Photos by Sam Hughes
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S: So I did a bit of digging into Vapour, so you started in 2007, but that was only offering print design services? J: Pretty much yeah S: It wasn't until 2011 when you decided to start broadening the banks offering client branding, digital design, etc? Can you expand on that for me, did you plan on becoming a proper design studio for a long time? J: As I say, at that jump off point I spoke to you about there when I made that decision, it actually went bonkers for me, I was quite nervous about doing it, but I very quickly went to everyday being slammed. With no overheads at all, it was a pretty sweet setup. It was just me and how I chose to approach each job that came to me. But you reach the ceiling with it and realise you only have so many hours in a day. the opportunities as a freelancer will always be limited - as you won’t get companies coming to a freelancer when they need the reassurance of a whole agency. Also I found out how I didn’t want to be sat at home in my office on my own, for the rest of my life - just as a ‘very good’ freelancer. S: Yeh you need that social aspect aswell? J: Yeh you want to be part of something bigger. You know, the money was good, especially for the art direction I did for Morillo's night at Pacha, in Ibiza which I did for the full season. It was here where I realised I could actually invest into an office after the season was up (not this one - they were there for 7 years previously). I had a couple of friends who came and worked with me and I took the plunge into something that would hopefully would allow me as a designer to progress. Giving me more opportunities not just working for other people - as I was too used to the flexibility that freelancing gave me. It was tough to start with, but over time as long as you are approaching it in the right way from a creative aspect and as a person, which we have always tried to do, hopefully you progress it into something else, and well here we all are now!
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19 ISSUES? PPP
S: So, in terms of that whole process, were there any practical issues in particular which you struggled with, for example, premises, admin, finance, etc? Were you always doing that stuff yourself? J: Yeah, I’m not the most organised person in the world, I mean I’m a creative! With it being my thing from the start, I’ve always just had to deal with the backof-house stuff myself. It is quite difficult, you know, its easy at the beginning when its only small, but the more we build and grow, the range and spread of who we work with increases, and we put ourselves out there, all the work we've had has kinda come to us, its all been organic. But yeh I have improved with maintaining a tight grid plan to the more admin side of the business. Cash flow can be an absolute killer. I went from having no overhead whatsoever with everything paid for, to having to consider wages, rent, all those other things like VAT, PAYE on wages, its so many things that you don't realise about at the start! You need to get serious on that stuff quickly believe me! But we've had no real huge problems, we usually have a good relationship with everyone we work with. D: All our day to day clients are people that come back to
us on a regular basis, as well because of the way we work, people have said it is good how we do not have account handlers, so there is there is not that middle man, they are always talking to the designer. We get a good relationship with them, you get to know what a client likes and doesn't like, and then you can deliver each time. J: I think there does not need to be that convolution in between, everyone seems to like the more personal tone to our approach. S: Yeh I agree, as soon as I came in to meet you guys for the first time, I could feel how that initial wall was broken down with the whole approach of the studio, very chilled out, Lola (the dog!) coming to meet you at the door, it gives you the whole experience of what a design studio should be like, breaking the ice for clients.
20 J: Yeh I'm glad you see that, I feel like a lot people get caught up in the whole 'we're a design agency bullsh*t' but at the end of the day we are just room full of lads creating nice stuff. We're good people, who'll do you some great work if you communicate with us, and we'll be cool with you! S: So is the idea behind the name of Vapour that you can drift around, there are no boundaries to your work!? J: Yeh kind of (laughs) its not like something tangible. Theres nothing we look at were we think 'aah we cant do that', well to an extent. D: We don't like to pigeon-hole it at all. There is no exact definition to what a design agency has to be. I realised there is this other side to design were you can do all the cool illustrations and not wear a suit and work in an office.
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21 PROMOTION? PPP
S: Going back to when you guys were starting out, I found an article talking about a competition you guys ran.. It said you were giving businesses the chance to get their new logo designed for free by you guys. Was this successful promotion for you at the time? How else were you promoting yourself, as you said a lot of it came to you? J: It went alright yeh, it wasn't hugely successful. But we ended up doing it for a French record label - they were a pig of a client! D: We did a ridiculous amount of amazing versions for his identity, fitting their style of house music perfectly, but they were really awkward with refining the details.
We got a lot of positive feedback for our website at the time too, which was nothing on what it is now! J: But yeh I don’t know how much of our success was down to that competition mind! In terms of selfpromotion, we've never really done any, its always been referrals. We're fortunate enough, as I say, to get a good word passed around about us, getting our foot nicely into the door with the leisure industries as well. For example the likes of Novus Leisure down in London, Revolution, now the Alchemist, everything with Reds, etc. But through 3 of those businesses, it is because one guy has moved between them all, so
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everywhere he's been, he's taken us with him, and this is down to the fact we have provided him with a great quality outcome every time and we've always got on really well. So it proves the value of being nice and keeping cool with the people you're working with! D: Most of our general enquiries now, come through the website. This is because we are actually ranked quite highly in the North when you search us, as we do have a lot of inbound links to our bigger clients and popular sites, for example LWE, The Alchemist, etc. J: This has lead to more worldwide enquiries, like Dubai, someone in Bangkok contacted us about working on a multifunction work space over there, we've just been invited to pitch all of Leeds College of Musics stuff for the upcoming year, we've done stuff for the NHS. So now we have a much more diverse portfolio of clients which I suppose make us more attractive as it shows we can do anything you need really! We're just about to relaunch our website again now, which hopefully again will elevate us even further and make our current website look pretty sub-standard! It's about constantly interacting and providing fresh content.
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S: For you guys, what makes a project most challenging? So it could be, as you've said before, it could be an extra difficult client? J: Yeh it's probably down to the client. We can do anything between us, we try to conceive the ideas, and translate it into something visual which is appropriate. Sometimes you will come up against a client which can feel very awkward, and will suck the life out of the project for you. This can be challenging when a client feels the need to try and adjust the project just for a sense of ownership, but it will often be to the detriment of the project. Sometimes you'll work with people who do genuinely help you and it'll be more of a collaborative thing that together you'll create something even bigger and better.
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CHALLENGING PROJECTS?
For example, our work with Emily at the Alchemist. We keep referring back to Alchemist a lot but they have been a really great client for us in the past year and a half, as they're a perfect example of a client who can see all the weird sh*t we can do if you allow us to, and they've said right lets run with it. We've took them as an already very successful and well executed brand, and added what we can as Vapour, to actually expand and progress them in our eyes. We see it as a next layer of creativity to their brand, making them visually and conceptually stronger.
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D: They have pushed us and encouraged us to develop in new ways for ourselves too. We've helped eachother to make the brand better. Sometimes, you do come across the client from hell but there is nothing you can do, you just have to make your decision of how you're going to handle it professionally but in a way which suits you.
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S: Would you say the Alchemist was the favourite project you have worked on then?
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FAVOURITE PROJECT?
J: Mine personally was the one I did with Nike ACG. It was a while ago now, we did it through an agency down in London who out-sourced it to us - in effect they just said, it is the 20th anniversary of Nikes ACG Conception. They had sent athletes and brand heroes out to the Moab Desert in Utah, USA with these iconic pieces from the past 20 years. It was going to be an anniversary range for the forthcoming season and they wanted a catalogue putting together, which was in effect a press catalogue with a resource DVD/CD
ROM. They just said here is the photoshoot - with all these beautiful shots on little propellor planes out in the desert. We want a 20 page brochure - here are all the old nike assets, all the original files of all the prints that were on these pieces and everything you could wish for (laughs) amazing illustrations from the tees, really cool conceptual sketches of the actual product. Here you go, just come back with something cool! There was no particular brief, so I was just like a kid in a sweet shop! It was in effect big graphical, almost Brody-esque sweeping layers. Using all the different components, all the heritage prints, building in and overlaying into something
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which was beautiful. As soon as we got on the right page with it, it was just a dream project really! You know, all of these endless vector files, and photo files, everything was just there. We also did the resource CD room at the back, which contained all of the components, as this thing was sent out to the press so we had to do a version in Spanish, Russian, Italian, etc.. D: ..It went out to 6 countries! So we had to develop a multilanguage resource DVD and then 6 versions of the catalogue, and then put it out the press to show all of the hero products from the forth-coming range. We've worked on a good range of ace stuff, just through showing we always have a good take on creativity!
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D: Some of my favourite work would be any of the 5 big neon wall arts I've with Reds. They're up there in terms of what I'm most proud of. S: It must be quite a feeling going into a well-known restaurant and sitting there eating and drinking in-front of your own work. D: Yeah, (laughs) its wicked. Towards the end as well we were getting quite creative with how we'd approach the flashing lights and how that created new dimensions to the display. It did make the opportunities for the project endless in my head! S: In terms of these projects, what is the turn around time? Whats the variation?
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FAVOURITE PROJECT?
J: Its always dictated by the client. Dave's Alchemist stuff is quite structured, they'll put a job on the project management system that they use and expect a small job back relatively quickly within a couple of days. Website stuff is very different. Design is a hard thing to put a time-scale on, as you just can't forecast it. I can usually give a time for the initial designs, but then you have like mystery time in-between were you getting from that point to the point were the client is happy for it to be published. It could take days, weeks or it could take a month!
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Interview, Design & Photos by Sam Hughes
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NORTHERN TALENT?
Talent up North?
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S: We touched on London earlier, how do you feel now about keeping talent up in the North? London was always this big flag-ship place for design but have things changed? D: I have noticed how a lot of studios have actually started migrating up north! Thats because London is crazy expensive and I think there are so many good design agencies outside of London too, you don't have to go down South to get that standard of work. You can do it anywhere! I think it is good to keep it up north yeh. J: As a young designer, I did always think I'd end up in London, as it was just normal for that to be were you looked at as a young creative. But now I couldn't imagine having to live in a big city like London all the time, Leeds is just easy and its where I am a custom to now, I'm 37, I have kids now (laughs). D: I can listen to about 2 tracks from my house to the office door, it's just an easier and more relaxed lifestyle (if thats possible as a designer!). I love the whole atmosphere of London, but Leeds for me now has developed, in terms of the culture and the landscape of the city. How many design agencies has changed, when I first came out there were a few good agencies, but now there are loads of big ones who we didn't have before. Is it important to go to London as a designer? yeh you could go down there and cut your teeth and get some really good names under your belt. But its not a necessity, you don't have to be considered successful now.
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S: On that note, not necessarily down South, but could you ever see you guys getting bigger and branching out at all?
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ADVICE?
J: Potentially, I would never be adverse to opening another one. I haven't given it too much thought. I think at this stage for us as an agency, as long as we keep our best interests as a studio as the priority and stay true to our work and what we want to create. It would be an easier thing for us to just go down and introduce ourselves to the bigger agencies as like a bolt on for them - an overspill agency allowing support for their projects to get our take and potential enhancements on big projects of theirs. It is all feesable in our eyes, but for now our focus is on our current set of clients and staying loyal to the work we are doing with them at the moment.
S: To wrap it all up then guys, have you got any advice for any young designers such as myself, who are coming straight of uni looking for jobs? J: Being nice to people won't get you everywhere, don't get me wrong it will get you a lot further however! Strive to better yourself, never rest, always think your own way as a designer, just don't ever do it to the point where you have stopped progressing with it, keep it fresh. Be your own worst critic, but make sure it is constructive. Everything you do, see it as a bench mark of which you have to beat the next time!Â
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33 A huge thanks to the boys at Vapour for having me and answering all my questions. I hope you like the book and I look forward to seeing your work only get bigger and better in the future!
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FINAL WORD
Interview, Design & Photos by Sam Hughes
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