An Interview with Law Grad Annie Seifullah on stricter revenge porn laws and we we need to protect ourselves & our children from the dark web

By: Melissa Henderson

VSZ: Congrats on graduating law school this year! What an accompliment. What type of work are you focused on at C.A. Goldberg? Annie Seifullah: Our work is focused on Victims Rights. We concentrate on the areas of sexual privacy, gender-based discrimination and gender-based violence. Our firm owner, Carrie Goldberg, was essentially the first lawyer in the country to specialize in helping victims of revenge porn aka cyber sexual assault.

VSZ: This is such important work that you are doing. And it’s crazy to think that the law is JUST catching up with the harsh realities of today’s internet culture. What made you join C.A. Goldberg ? AS: My story feels like a weird fairy tale, honestly. I was the victim of a very vicious and very public act of revenge porn. (Like, front page of the New York Post level of vicious and public). I lost my job and my professional reputation that I spent a decade building. Carrie was my attorney in a federal gender discrimination case that I brought against my employer, which ended in winning a settlement. At the same time I was fighting my own battle, I was putting myself through law school and learning how to be an anti-violence advocate. When I graduated, Carrie offered me a place at her firm. I feel very lucky to be working on this side of the fight.

VSZ: Wow. It must have been tough but you came out on top. Respect. The best revenge for women is gettin’ money AND helping others too! How long have you been in this indiutry? AS: I just started here in March 2019, so I’m brand spanking new. (Although I have five years of experience fighting revenge porn and domestic violence from the victim side, which gives me as much expertise on these matters as the legal education in my humble opinion.)

VSZ: Of course! What’s going on with the current online harassment and revenge porn laws? AS: So much exciting news here. Most states have passed law criminalizing revenge porn. The current count is 45 states, plus DC, plus one territory (Guam). New York State legislature just passed a law and we are anxiously waiting on Governor Cuomo to sign it.

VSZ: This is major news! When we first covered revenge porn as a topic, there were like 39 states invested in this legislation! AS: As of May 2019, the Federal revenge porn bill (known as the SHIELD Act, formerly the ENOUGH Act) is being reintroduced for discussion in Congress. It would be so incredible to have a federal statute in place because of all the cases that involve harassment and abuse across state lines. Local police departments are often times not equipped or not willing to help with issues that include anything “cyber” or “digital.” Being able to access federal law enforcement resources could represent a huge improvement for many of our clients.

VSZ: Agreed. Government should definitely mandate education around digital security and social media. What type of cases are you working on now? AS: You name it, we’ve worked on it! Once Governor Cuomo signs the revenge porn bill in New York State, I imagine that we will see an increase in cases that we able to bring statewide. But we don’t just take New York state cases. We have clients all over the country and even other parts of the world who need help with various issues relating to sexual privacy, cyber harassment, sextortion, gender-based violence and discrimination, and any form of sexual violence and exploitation.

VSZ: I can imagine...being as though it’s so common yet so few resources Revenge

porn is HUGE in the urban / hip hop community, check out this interview with Love & Hip Hop Star and Singer Tierra Marie who opened up about her own bout with revenge porn, why are so many situations not challenged? AS: This is so complicated. Generally, sex and gender-based violence disproportionately affects women, people of color, and LGBT folks. I venture that if this was a problem severely impacting the lives and livelihood of rich, white cis-men our outcomes would be far better.

VSZ: Exactly. It’s so de facto, yet we’re still playing catchup with the laws. Plus victims don’t feel safe telling their story to the law as a victim because they aren’t believed. AS: So many times, the victim of revenge porn (cyber sex assault) are told that they are at fault for what happened to them. “You shouldn’t have taken those photos” or “If you hadn’t shared that video with him this never would have happened.” Can you imagine if a rich man walked into a police station and said “I’d like to report a crime. A crazy person stole my Mercedes Benz!” And the police responded, “Well that’s what you get for driving such a fancy car. You were sort of asking for it, am I right?”

IT. WOULD. NOT. HAPPEN.

I hear what you’re saying about revenge porn being really prevalent in urban/hip hop communities. I’ve been part of many conversations directed at answering this exact

question and dilemma. And I’m sure there are all sorts of folks who would like to blame the problem on Hip Hop culture’s history of misogyny. But you and I both know that misogyny did not spring out of Hip Hop. And women of color are more likely to be blamed or completely ignored when they are victims of sex crimes due to the racism and sexism embedded in cultures of power.

VSZ: As a philosophical question, why are people so indulgent in gossip, public

humiliation? AS: I wish I knew the answer to this question. Having been the target of gossip and public humiliation myself, I think that most people just aren’t aware of the real damage that it causes. People are cruel online in a way that they just aren’t cruel in real life circumstances. Working with victims of various walks of life has taught me that after experiencing public and humiliating trauma, people often develop a sense of empathy and kindness towards others that they did not have before. I think if more people had a moment to feel the pain and unfairness of being publicly judged and humiliated – there would be less of it in the world.

VSZ: Around 2013/2014… You’ve experienced revenge porn which has ultimately inspired you to become a lawyer… How was the current socio-political climate back then compared to now? AS: The climate right now is slightly more sympathetic to victims, although we still have a long way to go. Five years ago, when I was a school principal and photos of me in my underwear were published in the New York Post the general vibe was “How can you be an educator after your students have seen those photos?!” Compare that to two months ago, when Long Island teacher Lauren Miranda was fired after her topless photo was publicly distributed. If you take a scan of the headlines, you’ll see that the public perception and outcry is far more sympathetic towards her having those photos and I am glad for her that she seems to be getting a better treatment by the public at large. I am hopeful that some of the work Carrie and our network of activist warriors have done over the last five years helped to make the climate better for victims like Lauren Miranda. We still have a long way to go.

VSZ: What do you know now as a professional lawyer in this line of work as opposed to what you didn’t know back then when you were deep in shit? AS: Oh girl, the things I WISH I KNEW. I was being abused, extorted, manipulated, stolen from, gaslighted. The list goes on. At the time I just thought, this is a mean guy and a bad relationship and after we breakup we will both move on with our lives. I thought, this is just what happens in some relationships. I was so wrong! He was a criminal, committing abusive and illegal acts against me. And I thought because I wasn’t perfect that I somehow deserved it.

VSZ: The feelings are mutual. AS: I wish that I had called a lawyer or reached out to women’s rights group or a victim’s support network or ANYTHING before he made good on his threats to make my private photos public. His greatest weapon against me was my silence. I stayed quiet because I was ashamed. The public figure that I was (smart, strong, good leader) was completely out of line with who I was in my personal relationship and I was not speaking the truth out loud, not

asking for help out loud, like I should have been. The only thing I can hope is that women will hear my story and speak out and stand up to their abusers sooner than I did.

VSZ: Exactly. After I told my story was published in the UK Daily Mail, I felt a little ashamed because the way the writer framed it. But then a few women in my network started telling me their stories and why colleague even pressed chargers on an exe because she read my story! So that made me feel powerful and also cope with the after effects. What challenges / issues are KEY to protecting women’s rights online? AS: Legal scholar Danielle Citron has been publishing some really good work lately about technological due process and the need for an online bill of rights to protect people’s civil rights in the digital world. The rise of the internet is something that the founding fathers and civil rights leaders in our country’s history could never have predicted. Citron’s arguments that new times call for new civil rights is really compelling. Part of the real difficulty is that most reasonable people understand that the internet and online behavior needs to be regulated in a way that it isn’t currently being regulated. But most of the people making the decisions are tech executives -- or decision makers and advocacy organizations that get money and funding from Big Tech. The people who are targeted the most with online violence are women, queer folks, and people of color. So it requires constant and loud activism and storytelling to draw attention to protecting people’s rights online.

VSZ: I’ve talked to a leading women’s activist group, who are also focused on the changing laws, about online responsibility… They believe tech companies are responsible for revenge porn bad behavior/trafficking/etc because tech companies own the platform and therefore should know how it works… Thoughts on this? AS: Tech companies absolutely have a responsibility. Are you familiar with Section 230 of the Communication Decency Act? Most people are not familiar, and I think for anyone to be an activist or commentator in this space – it’s an absolute must read.

VSZ: Ah ohh!! AS: In short: when the internet was a baby, Congress passed Section 230 as a way to protect internet providers from liability for any injuries (such as defamation) that happened on tech platforms. That law was meant to protect tech companies so that they could innovate and grow without the threat of massive lawsuits being thrown at

them. Fast forward to 2019 and tech giants like Google and Facebook suffer no legal consequences for injuries that happen on their platforms – even injuries that they know about and have the ability to stop. The law needs to be revisited. Every industry in this country faces liability for injuries that happen because of defective products. Why is the technology industry completely exempt?

VSZ: This is what I am trying to understand. The Facebook Trials really put the company in the spotlight. Also our elected officials back then were super illiterate when it came to tech and because they were not even active and engaged. The internet was used by “women to blog about homemaker stuff ” and used by millennials for social media. Do you have working relationships with Facebook / Instagram / Twitter executives? AS: Let’s put it this way. If a client is being stalked, harassed or revenge porn-ed on any of the major platforms, Carrie just picks up the phone.

VSZ: Have you ever gotten an account removed? AS: Yes! We are highly skilled at the “DMCA Takedown” and other methods of getting bad accounts and content removed from online. Victims should contact us if they need help.

VSZ: What other activism have you and your firm lead? AS: Currently we are working to draw attention to the fact that there is one (that’s right ONE) Title IX coordinator for the entire New York City Department of Education. That means there is one person whose job it is to monitor and report sex assaults and gender-based violence in a school district with 1.1 million school children. Young black girls are among the most vulnerable in NYC public schools. We have been working hard on behalf of victims (again, young black girls) who have reported sex assault to school officials and then, instead of being supported – they are punished. These cases are some of our most gut wrenching and heart breaking especially because of the age and vulnerability of these young women who bravely report the violence they suffered and then are further victimized by the systems and people that should be protecting them. We put our whole hearts into these cases and plan to continue our activism on this important issue. Interesting anecdote: A couple weeks ago, Carrie went to testify at a city council hearing about the problem of DOE only having one Title IX coordinator. After the DOE officials gave their statements and answered a few questions, they got up and WALKED OUT of the hearing while Carrie and student-victims told their stories of poorly handled sexual assault cases in schools. Literally the people in charge of keeping these children safe packed up their stuff and walked out the door during the time allotted for student testimony. It literally makes me sick. It’s as if they don’t even care to pretend that they are concerned with making things better for victims

within the school system.

VSZ: Are you fucking kidding me? That’s the worst possible responsive these girls need. It just goes back to the notion that black women aren’t valued in this society. We are looked at as either a piece of meat or dishonest and not truthful. The education system is a mess!

VSZ: If you and your firm could be a part of Federal Committee for Online Social Interactions, briefly name 1-2 guidelines that should be included in the inaugural legislation…? AS: 1. Update or abolish Section 230 of the CDA so that tech companies are open to liability for ignoring abuses that occur on their platforms.

VSZ: What coping mechanisms do you recommend to someone who has had an act of revenge porn committed on them?

AS: Such an important question. Carrie and I both subscribe to the belief that helping people is the best form of therapy. In my second year of law school, when I was still being relentlessly shamed by the New York City media and the NYC DOE, I felt so hopeless and ashamed and alone. And when I started volunteering at the NYC Anti-Violence Project it was like a black cloud lifted off of me. People warned me that working with other victims would make me feel “triggered” and upset. However, the exact opposite was true for me. Speaking to others, sharing stories and hearing that other people went through made me feel normal. It helped me speak louder about details that I had never spoken about. It helped me realize that the abuses I suffered were not my fault but the fault of a bad person who meant to hurt me. And it helped me by taking the obsessive thoughts off of myself and shifting into being an advocate for others. Many of whom suffered far worse abuses than I had. Not that it’s a competition for who suffered more. It was more like a broadened perspective and purpose outside of my own thinking and experience. I strongly recommend to people who have been victimized to start talking. Reach out to support networks and become part of the movement. You don’t have to speak publicly either. Organizations like BADASS Army fiercely protect the privacy of their group members.

Anyone who needs to get connected with these support communities can contact us. This is Carrie’s life work, and now it’s my life’s work. We love turning victims into warriors.