Do we all have the defective module should all invicta speedways be recalled

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 177

Spring Lake Bob Senior Member Senior Geek

(UPDATED) Do We All Have the "Defective Module?" Should All Speedways Be Recalled?

This thread is more than 2 weeks old but is still relevant based on Jim's assertion yesterday (6/14 post) that our defective Speedways will be fitted with a D-D "washer" to correct problems with the dial level placement and hand tolerance.

The question remains: is this a defect all Speedway Elite's have? And if so, should there be a model-wide recall to preempt future problems with Speedways that seem to be functioning properly?

I hope this is addressed in the upcoming statement. ***** I have read (and re-read) Jim Skelton's very informative thread regarding issues with the DD Speedway. While being careful not to definitively assign blame, Jim identified a possible problem. I've taken the liberty of piecing it together, but here's what Jim said: "The problem began with how the chrono plate was built... D-D built the module, the module is defective.

"If the gear train had enough play in it (as I suspect MAY BE ONE of the causes) then they could have all appeared fine when inspected by Invicta, then through the oh... 3,000 or so miles of transit and handling, the hands could have shifted due to this slop in the mechanism...."

If that, in fact, turns out to be the cause, doesn't that mean that those of us fortunate enough now to own properly functioning Speedways are likely to incur a similar defect after the normal wear & tear of daily use?

If all of the DD Speedways have the "defective module" how likely is it that the "good ones" will fail?

I take some comfort in knowing my DD Speedway is covered by Invicta's Five Year Warranty. But doesn't it make sense (again, IF this is the cause) to recall ALL Speedways to have the defective module replaced BEFORE it fails?

I have little or no technical knowledge here, and feedback/expertise would be appreciated. Thanks!

Last edited by Spring Lake Bob; Today at 07:11 AM.

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Speedway Elite Issues Forum

Spring Lake Bob View Public Profile Send a private message to Spring Lake Bob Find all posts by Spring Lake Bob Add Spring Lake Bob to Your Contacts #2 05-28-2010, 12:08 AM Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,550

DHL Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spring Lake Bob I have read (and re-read) Jim Skelton's very informative thread regarding issues with the DD Speedway. While being careful not to definitively assign blame, Jim identified a possible problem. I've taken the liberty of piecing it together, but here's what Jim said: "The problem began with how the chrono plate was built... D-D built the module, the module is defective.

"If the gear train had enough play in it (as I suspect MAY BE ONE of the causes) then they could have all appeared fine when inspected by Invicta, then through the oh... 3,000 or so miles of transit and handling, the hands could have shifted due to this slop in the mechanism...."

If that, in fact, turns out to be the cause, doesn't that mean that those of us fortunate enough now to own properly functioning Speedways are likely to incur a similar defect after the normal wear & tear of daily use?

If all of the DD Speedways have the "defective module" how likely is it that the "good ones" will fail?

I take some comfort in knowing my DD Speedway is covered by Invicta's Five Year Warranty. But doesn't it make sense (again, IF this is the cause) to recall ALL Speedways to have the defective module replaced BEFORE it fails?

I have little or no technical knowledge here, and feedback/expertise would be appreciated. Thanks!

I am wondering how a bad module would result in hand falling off the pinions, unless the pinions were machined out of spec by DD during manufacture of the module.

DHL View Public Profile Send a private message to DHL Find all posts by DHL Add DHL to Your Contacts #3 05-28-2010, 02:05 AM Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Juneau, Alaska Posts: 778 Real Name: Cal

battleshipduke Senior Member Veteran Geek

Extreme bummer, I really hope you all get your watches fixed or replaced. battleshipduke View Public Profile Send a private message to battleshipduke Send email to battleshipduke Find all posts by battleshipduke Add battleshipduke to Your Contacts #4 05-28-2010, 03:24 AM Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,393 Real Name: Joe T

JoeGa Senior Member Super Geek

Really don't have a dog in this fight as I didn't buy, but just how does a much ballyhooed movement producer suddenly make a load of junk? Cutting corners to sell more cheaply to Invicta? What gives?

__________________

What ?!? No Watch ?!?

JoeGa View Public Profile Send a private message to JoeGa Send email to JoeGa Find all posts by JoeGa Add JoeGa to Your Contacts #5 05-28-2010, 03:34 AM Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Morgantown WV Posts: 12,445 Real Name: Tommy

tkromer Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeGa Really don't have a dog in this fight as I didn't buy, but just how does a much ballyhooed movement producer suddenly make a load of junk? Cutting corners to sell more cheaply to Invicta? What gives?

I would guess that could be one part of it. Secondly, they normally produce for lowquantity runs, so they can spend more time on QC, and even if they were defective, there would never be 3000 defective movements at once.

Also, and this is purely personal opinion, I think it's just another movement, it's overrated because it's Swiss, really, it's a good solid movement, but nothing to rave about. tkromer

View Public Profile Send a private message to tkromer Send email to tkromer Find all posts by tkromer Add tkromer to Your Contacts #6 05-28-2010, 03:41 AM

timeman

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,810 Real Name: Jerry

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spring Lake Bob "If the gear train had enough play in it (as I suspect MAY BE ONE of the causes) then they could have all appeared fine when inspected by Invicta, then through the oh... 3,000 or so miles of transit and handling, the hands could have shifted due to this slop in the mechanism...."

How can the average customer who buys an Invicta Reserve Elite can determine the watch is defective in most cases by just looking at it and running the chronograph a few times, and Invicta's inspectors can't?

And this 3000 miles journey, isn't this the same way and distance ALL Swiss Made Invictas travel? Why aren't they defective too? These excuses don't hold up. The watches weren't or properly inspected by Invicta before being sold to the public. __________________

timeman View Public Profile Send a private message to timeman Find all posts by timeman Add timeman to Your Contacts #7 05-28-2010, 03:44 AM

Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Morgantown WV Posts: 12,445 Real Name: Tommy

tkromer Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman How can the average customer who buys an Invicta Reserve Elite can determine the watch is defective in most cases by just looking at it and running the chronograph a few times, and Invicta's inspectors can't?

And this 3000 miles journey, isn't this the same way and distance ALL Swiss Made Invictas travel? Why aren't they defective too? These excuses don't hold up. The watches weren't or properly inspected by Invicta before being sold to the public.

A normal watch will have no slack in the drivetrain on the chrono, and therefore WON'T misalign during transit. I don't know how much inspection they normally receive (none of us do), but I imagine the QC on these was pretty standard. Most will survive one run of the chrono without trouble, the hand alignment is a weird thing to even check, maybe it's standard but I know I would never check that (before now).

QC is not the best at Invicta, no question about it, but I'm placing a lot more blame on DD than Invicta in this instance. tkromer View Public Profile Send a private message to tkromer Send email to tkromer Find all posts by tkromer Add tkromer to Your Contacts #8 05-28-2010, 03:52 AM

Krazy Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Harrisburg, Pa Posts: 167 Real Name: Jr

There's REALLY only one solution to this mess is to recall all, as there's absoulutely no doubt something had some really shoddy manf done, be it DD or whoever. Waiting for a $1000.00 watch to break is NOT acceptable in anyones world! Just have them all sent back and fix all, as its impossible to even wildly surmise there was any made correctly, just some that are lucky to work right now! There should even make a credit for all the BS their putting the buyers thru!

Krazy

View Public Profile Send a private message to Krazy Find all posts by Krazy Add Krazy to Your Contacts #9 05-28-2010, 04:04 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island New York Posts: 22,028

BigJoe Original Past Ambassador True WatchGeek

Thanks for you thoughts on the problem with the movement you could be correct its a shame for that kind of money this could have happened hopefully it will be resolved in a way that makes all Happy. __________________

Big Joe like's watches and good friends.

Take care and be safe. [ Big Joe ]

BigJoe View Public Profile Send a private message to BigJoe Send email to BigJoe Find all posts by BigJoe Add BigJoe to Your Contacts #10 05-28-2010, 04:25 AM

tempusviator Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: New England Posts: 531 Real Name: Marco ("CO")

I didn't buy this piece, but, if I did, I would return it for a full refund and move on.

With all the guess work regarding who did what and what may be the cause of the defect(s), why risk holding onto this piece for the long haul? Who needs the aggravation and worry about what may (or is likely) to happen down the line? Buying and collecting timepieces is supposed to be about enjoying yourself and obtaining precision, functionality, and refinement, particularly with respect to pieces such as this one and for the price point involved. Looks like this one is a swing and miss guys.

Send it back and check out all of the options this weekend and next week - lots of great pieces and deals happening now - use that G-Note to get some and be happy forget this nonsense and hand ringing. tempusviator View Public Profile Send a private message to tempusviator Find all posts by tempusviator Add tempusviator to Your Contacts #11 05-28-2010, 04:36 AM

CLEANS-HIGH Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Aliquippa Pa Posts: 843

I did not buy because in the NBZ but this watch was really testing me but if I spent that on the watch and I found out there may be defects I would return it whether it ran fine or not because I would not want to have to repair a watch after say 5 years.

Somebody dropped the ball.

CLEANS-HIGH View Public Profile Send a private message to CLEANS-HIGH Find all posts by CLEANS-HIGH Add CLEANS-HIGH to Your Contacts #12 05-29-2010, 07:16 AM

steverob Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Seattle, WA (and on the road weekly) Posts: 646 Real Name: Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spring Lake Bob I have read (and re-read) Jim Skelton's very informative thread regarding issues with the DD Speedway. While being careful not to definitively assign blame, Jim identified a possible problem. I've taken the liberty of piecing it together, but here's what Jim said: "The problem began with how the chrono plate was built... D-D built the

module, the module is defective.

"If the gear train had enough play in it (as I suspect MAY BE ONE of the causes) then they could have all appeared fine when inspected by Invicta, then through the oh... 3,000 or so miles of transit and handling, the hands could have shifted due to this slop in the mechanism...."

If that, in fact, turns out to be the cause, doesn't that mean that those of us fortunate enough now to own properly functioning Speedways are likely to incur a similar defect after the normal wear & tear of daily use?

If all of the DD Speedways have the "defective module" how likely is it that the "good ones" will fail?

I take some comfort in knowing my DD Speedway is covered by Invicta's Five Year Warranty. But doesn't it make sense (again, IF this is the cause) to recall ALL Speedways to have the defective module replaced BEFORE it fails?

I have little or no technical knowledge here, and feedback/expertise would be appreciated. Thanks!

I was feeling pretty good because mine appears to be working very well. That was before I realized that an entirely new section of the forum had been created for DD Speedway problems and began reading through it. I think your point is well taken.

This is starting to sound a lot like a general recall situation where every watch should be inspected and repaired at no cost if necessary. I just wish there were some way to do that without having to send the watches back to Switzerland. It would be a much better situation if there were local repair facilities that could do this.

I seem to remember that another poster discussed taking his to a local repair facility and the watchmaker discovered that a screw was missing somewhere on the movement. After replacing the screw, all seemed to work properly. It would be nice if it were that easy!

Steve steverob View Public Profile Send a private message to steverob Send email to steverob Find all posts by steverob Add steverob to Your Contacts #13 05-29-2010, 06:26 PM

steverob Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by tempusviator

Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Seattle, WA (and on the road weekly) Posts: 646 Real Name: Steve

I didn't buy this piece, but, if I did, I would return it for a full refund and move on.

With all the guess work regarding who did what and what may be the cause of the defect(s), why risk holding onto this piece for the long haul? Who needs the aggravation and worry about what may (or is likely) to happen down the line?

Buying and collecting timepieces is supposed to be about enjoying yourself and obtaining precision, functionality, and refinement, particularly with respect to pieces such as this one and for the price point involved. Looks like this one is a swing and miss guys. Send it back and check out all of the options this weekend and next week - lots of great pieces and deals happening now - use that G-Note to get some and be happy - forget this nonsense and hand ringing.

I wish it were that simple. Most of us who bought this watch did so because of the movement. It's a lot less common than a Valjoux or SW200, for instance. If there is a decent chance it will continue to work properly, it might be worth a little risk. Even at a grand, that's a decent price for a 500m water resistant watch with this movement and with a 5 year warranty. Just my 2 cents. steverob View Public Profile Send a private message to steverob Send email to steverob Find all posts by steverob Add steverob to Your Contacts #14 06-02-2010, 03:43 PM

SilverCowboy

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 6

Junior Member New Geek

I posted this last week ...

Still have a DD Silvertone running almost 4 min slow ... maybe 12 hrs reserve power then it stops! I'm taking the watch in tomorrow morning to one of the best watch repair places in Dallas, Tx and at $57.50 0f my own money it will be completely checked out on $25,000 worth of test equipment. If the watch can be adjusted to within a few seconds and the other issue of power solved...I will keep it, if not then I will return it to ShopNBC for a refund including my shipping...both ways and "call it a day". Invicta will never be Rolex quality ... either parts or service. No more expensive Invicta watches for me ... they are strictly "minor league".

NOW FOR THE RESULTS! I took the DD Speedway for a look see at the Watch Repair center and their tech determined that " A SCREW WAS MISSING FROM THE MOVEMENT!" he said he could provide the screw if needed. He timed the watch over several positions on a computer like device and determined that the Speedway was indeed running almost 5 min slow.

He offered to check it completey and repair and time the watch within seconds for $50 bucks. I left the watch and should have it back by tommorow afternoon unless he finds more problems.

PICKED UP THE SPEEDWAY LAST THURSDAY. I had Time Tech here in Dallas do the repair.Kevin, the owner set and timed my watch for $55.00, and it only took one day! I have let it run straight through the holidays. 7 days and my Speedway keeps perfect time by the atomic clock in Colorado, give or take 1/4 sec! I do not recommend taking a new watch in for repair since Invicta and ShopNBC have solutions in place to solve the problems with the Speedway. If any of you want some excellent service on your prime watches... take, or send them to Kevin. He is one of the best.

Later WG Kevin R. Monaghan, Owner 13140 Coit Road, Suite 519 Dallas, TX 75240 972-644-1774 • 972-644-1775 • Fax: 972-644-1775 time_tech@SBCGlobal.net SilverCowboy View Public Profile Send a private message to SilverCowboy Find all posts by SilverCowboy Add SilverCowboy to Your Contacts #15 06-02-2010, 03:55 PM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: On the Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,103 Real Name: Charlie

CharlieB Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by tempusviator I didn't buy this piece, but, if I did, I would return it for a full refund and move on.

With all the guess work regarding who did what and what may be the cause of the defect(s), why risk holding onto this piece for the long haul? Who needs the aggravation and worry about what may (or is likely) to happen down the line?

Buying and collecting timepieces is supposed to be about enjoying yourself and obtaining precision, functionality, and refinement, particularly with respect to pieces such as this one and for the price point involved. Looks like this one is a swing and miss guys. Send it back and check out all of the options this weekend and next week - lots of great pieces and deals happening now - use that G-Note to get some and be happy - forget this nonsense and hand ringing.

I am in total agreement. I would return it and move on. __________________

2 DOWN, 2 TO GO!!!

CharlieB View Public Profile Send a private message to CharlieB Find all posts by CharlieB Add CharlieB to Your Contacts #16 06-02-2010, 04:55 PM

nycruza

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,382 Real Name: A.J.

Senior Member Super Geek

I agree!

I'm keeping my perfectly operating DD (@ -2 seconds so far). IF there is a problem in the future I know it will be rectified by Invicta or I'll pay Medhi, or my local shop to rectify.

I was never one to bite off my nose in spite of my face.

Enjoy and wear it well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverCowboy

I posted this last week ...

Still have a DD Silvertone running almost 4 min slow ... maybe 12 hrs reserve power then it stops! I'm taking the watch in tomorrow morning to one of the best watch repair places in Dallas, Tx and at $57.50 0f my own money it will be completely checked out on $25,000 worth of test equipment. If the watch can be adjusted to within a few seconds and the other issue of power solved...I will keep it, if not then I will return it to ShopNBC for a refund including my shipping...both ways and "call it a day". Invicta will never be Rolex quality ... either parts or service. No more expensive Invicta watches for me ... they are strictly "minor league".

NOW FOR THE RESULTS! I took the DD Speedway for a look see at the Watch Repair center and their tech determined that " A SCREW WAS MISSING FROM THE MOVEMENT!" he said he could provide the screw if needed. He timed the watch over several positions on a computer like device and determined that the Speedway was indeed running almost 5 min slow. He offered to check it completey and repair and time the watch within seconds for $50 bucks. I left the watch and should have it back by tommorow afternoon unless he finds more problems.

PICKED UP THE SPEEDWAY LAST THURSDAY. I had Time Tech here in Dallas do the repair.Kevin, the owner set and timed my watch for $55.00, and it only took one day! I have let it run straight through the holidays. 7 days and my Speedway keeps perfect time by the atomic clock in Colorado, give or take 1/4 sec! I do not recommend taking a new watch in for repair since Invicta and ShopNBC have solutions in place to solve the problems with the Speedway. If any of you want some excellent service on your prime watches... take, or send them to Kevin. He is one of the best.

Later WG Kevin R. Monaghan, Owner 13140 Coit Road, Suite 519 Dallas, TX 75240 972-644-1774 • 972-644-1775 • Fax: 972-644-1775 time_tech@SBCGlobal.net __________________

SANIII on the Rocks with a Twist of Lemon nycruza View Public Profile Send a private message to nycruza Find all posts by nycruza Add nycruza to Your Contacts #17 06-02-2010, 05:01 PM

reliefcp Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Good luck. I would have sent it back and been done with it. __________________

reliefcp

Join Date: May 2009 Location: Everett Wa. Posts: 2,772 Real Name: C.J.

View Public Profile Send a private message to reliefcp Find all posts by reliefcp Add reliefcp to Your Contacts #18 06-03-2010, 04:40 PM

steverob Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Seattle, WA (and on the road weekly) Posts: 646 Real Name: Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverCowboy

I posted this last week ...

Still have a DD Silvertone running almost 4 min slow ... maybe 12 hrs reserve power then it stops! I'm taking the watch in tomorrow morning to one of the best watch repair places in Dallas, Tx and at $57.50 0f my own money it will be completely checked out on $25,000 worth of test equipment. If the watch can be adjusted to within a few seconds and the other issue of power solved...I will keep it, if not then I will return it to ShopNBC for a refund including my shipping...both ways and "call it a day". Invicta will never be Rolex quality ... either parts or service. No more expensive Invicta watches for me ... they are strictly "minor league".

NOW FOR THE RESULTS! I took the DD Speedway for a look see at the Watch Repair center and their tech determined that " A SCREW WAS MISSING FROM THE MOVEMENT!" he said he could provide the screw if needed. He timed the watch over several positions on a computer like device and determined that the Speedway was indeed running almost 5 min slow. He offered to check it completey and repair and time the watch within seconds for $50 bucks. I left the watch and should have it back by tommorow afternoon unless he finds more problems.

PICKED UP THE SPEEDWAY LAST THURSDAY. I had Time Tech here in Dallas do the repair.Kevin, the owner set and timed my watch for $55.00, and it only took one day! I have let it run straight through the holidays. 7 days and my Speedway keeps perfect time by the atomic clock in Colorado, give or take 1/4 sec! I do not recommend taking a new watch in for repair since Invicta and ShopNBC have solutions in place to solve the problems with the Speedway. If any of you want some excellent service on your prime watches... take, or send them to Kevin. He is one of the best.

Later WG Kevin R. Monaghan, Owner 13140 Coit Road, Suite 519 Dallas, TX 75240

972-644-1774 • 972-644-1775 • Fax: 972-644-1775 time_tech@SBCGlobal.net Thank you for re-posting the information, SilverCowboy. I appreciate it and I'm sure others here will as well.

Steve steverob View Public Profile Send a private message to steverob Send email to steverob Find all posts by steverob Add steverob to Your Contacts #19 06-03-2010, 04:57 PM

Russell3

Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Fallowfield PA Posts: 320 Real Name: Russell

Senior Member Senior Geek

Just my .02 I've owned plenty of higher end watches with the DD module. NEVER had a problem. I bet Eyal bought the modules from DD at pennies on the dollar because of the economy. Instead of paying extra to have DD install them, he had his people do it and viola! You get *****! Now this is purely speculation on my part. But it sounds right Russell3 View Public Profile Send a private message to Russell3 Find all posts by Russell3 Add Russell3 to Your Contacts #20 Yesterday, 09:12 PM

jwin66

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 89

Member Member Geek I agree

I don't own this watch but Invicta if they are worth the salt should put their money where there mouth is own up to this issue and recall the watch if they don't they will always be seen as a distant second to watch makers like Tag Heur, Omega and the likes.

Jon

Member Geek Sorry to all you guys that got a defective watch and congrats to all those who didn't it looks like a great timpiece apart from the reviews on Shop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krazy There's REALLY only one solution to this mess is to recall all, as there's absoulutely no doubt something had some really shoddy manf done, be it DD or whoever.

Waiting for a $1000.00 watch to break is NOT acceptable in anyones world! Just have them all sent back and fix all, as its impossible to even wildly surmise there was any made correctly, just some that are lucky to work right now! There should even make a credit for all the BS their putting the buyers thru!

jwin66 View Public Profile Send a private message to jwin66 Send email to jwin66 Find all posts by jwin66 Add jwin66 to Your Contacts #21 Today, 01:33 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,523

Watch_Crazy Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell3 Just my .02 I've owned plenty of higher end watches with the DD module. NEVER had a problem. I bet Eyal bought the modules from DD at pennies on the dollar because of the economy. Instead of paying extra to have DD install them, he had his people do it and viola! You get *****! Now this is purely speculation on my part.

But it sounds right

I agree w/you; i.e., although purely conjecture, it's EXTREMELY likely that ... ... there WERE, indeed, a 'veritable plethora' of these movements available for pennies on the dollar - from DD, 'et al', ... ... merely because, w/a globally-sick economy, the market for hi-end movt's has become more of a 'sliver' than a 'niche!' _______________________________ ⌘ _______________________________

Regardless, like Mssr. 'NYCruz', SIR!, and others have so adroitly surmised, ... ... Why return a working watch? Why 'fix' something that's NOT broken? ... ... For now, I'm going to KEEP mine and await for further developments! _______________________________ ⌘ _______________________________ Finally, I happened to BANG the side of my "Dubious-Dubois" on a door handle the other day! ... ... FWIW, it "took a lickin' and kept right on tickin'!" IMHO, If - IF! - the hands WERE going to fall off, ... ... I'm pretty convinced that THAT particularly-severe, but totally-inadvertent, JOLT ... ... would have CERTAINLY resulted in a 'Dirty Deed Done Dirt Cheap!' w/KUDOS to Joan Jett YouTube- joan jett dirty deeds done dirty cheap

__________________ HI! - I'm Larry & I'm Wacky About Watches -

… So, You Can Also Call Me … 'Crazy LARRY' Watch_Crazy View Public Profile Send a private message to Watch_Crazy Find all posts by Watch_Crazy Add Watch_Crazy to Your Contacts #22 Today, 07:30 AM

hitch Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 250

From Mr. Watch crazy: Quote:

...Finally, I happened to BANG the side of my "Dubious-Dubois" on a door handle the other day! ... ... FWIW, it "took a lickin' and kept right on tickin'!" IMHO, If - IF! - the hands WERE going to fall off, ... ... I'm pretty convinced that THAT particularly-severe, but totally-inadvertent, JOLT ... ... would have CERTAINLY resulted in a 'Dirty Deed Done Dirt Cheap!' - w/KUDOS to Joan Jett Sir, once again you display your excellent musical taste. Also, the whack your watch took without trouble somewhat increases my confidence in the movement.