Eyal statement justifing chinese movements in watches with the word swiss on the dial

Yesterday, 07:25 PM

icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by icewolf64 ISA is pretty cool, I wrote them to ask if there was a Swiss made version of the ISA 8176/2050. I wrote the email to them last night and received a response today it is as follows Yes, there is a SWISS MADE version for movement 8176.

Claude RECEVEUR Sales and Marketing Director

Sorry if this was not real clear but from the e-mail that I received the two movements in my watch are not swiss movements but that ISA does make a swiss version of this movement. __________________

icewolf64 View Public Profile Send a private message to icewolf64 Find all posts by icewolf64 Add icewolf64 to Your Contacts #352 Yesterday, 07:28 PM

Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by Argabright Any purchaser of a watch improperly marked SWISS would have standing for such a claim...

They could file as an individual without a doubt, but no class action can be filed by anyone until a court certifies the class beforehand. __________________

Flyback View Public Profile Send a private message to Flyback Find all posts by Flyback Add Flyback to Your Contacts #353 Yesterday, 07:30 PM chitown Senior Member

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If it says Swiss and it isn't Swiss Made should be fraud period. At the very least fales advertising and something should be done. Or more MISTAKES WILL ACCIDENTLY BE MADE. BS chitown View Public Profile Send a private message to chitown Send email to chitown Find all posts by chitown Add chitown to Your Contacts #354 Yesterday, 07:30 PM

timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

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I had a feeling this was going to happen. The ShopNBC video of Eyal saying the Invicta Quinotaur in question J176920 was "ALL SWISS" is no longer there. It was removed by ShopNBC. Check for yourself. http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?trac...h-_-family-_-N I was going to ask someone then to YouTube it in my original post #172 but didn't. What other evidence is going to disappear? __________________

timeman View Public Profile Send a private message to timeman Find all posts by timeman Add timeman to Your Contacts #355 Yesterday, 07:33 PM

Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by timeman I had a feeling this was going to happen. The ShopNBC video of Eyal saying the Invicta Quinotaur in question J176920 was "ALL SWISS" is no longer there. It was removed by ShopNBC. Check for yourself. http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?trac...h-_-family-_-N I was going to ask someone then to YouTube it in my original post #172 but didn't. What other evidence is going to disappear?

The whatever number of thousands of Chinese movements in Invicta watches labeled Swiss won't disappear.

That's for sure. __________________

Flyback View Public Profile Send a private message to Flyback Find all posts by Flyback Add Flyback to Your Contacts #356 Yesterday, 07:34 PM

Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by MREXE Kahuana!!!! dude! you are correct too!!! youve just won my phoney "part swiss, part cow pucky" russian ""jiver"""........ok, I bought two.........purple and burnt burnt orange....luv 'em Really? I won a Russian inspired designed watch labeled "Swiss" that is made in China and sold in the USA? Those watches should earn some frequent flyer miles.

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QMZ Senior Member Super Geek

No responses yet, huh? I can't wait to hear __________________

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Argabright Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by timeman I had a feeling this was going to happen. The ShopNBC video of Eyal saying the Invicta Quinotaur in question J176920 was "ALL SWISS" is no longer there. It was removed by ShopNBC. Check for yourself. http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?trac...h-_-family-_-N I was going to ask someone then to YouTube it in my original post #172 but didn't. What other evidence is going to disappear?

Was that the statement from ShopNBC that you were waiting for? __________________

Argabright View Public Profile Send a private message to Argabright Find all posts by Argabright Add Argabright to Your Contacts #359 Yesterday, 07:36 PM

icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by timeman I had a feeling this was going to happen. The ShopNBC video of Eyal saying the Invicta Quinotaur in question J176920 was "ALL SWISS" is no longer there. It was removed by ShopNBC. Check for yourself. http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?trac...h-_-family-_-N I was going to ask someone then to YouTube it in my original post #172 but didn't. What other evidence is going to disappear?

I figured that would happen too, but this means that this thread has been seen by their eyes. __________________

icewolf64 View Public Profile Send a private message to icewolf64 Find all posts by icewolf64 Add icewolf64 to Your Contacts #360 Yesterday, 07:37 PM kless13 Member Member Geek

Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Southern

CA Posts: 57 Real Name: Ken Does Invicta claim that their "Swiss" watches are the same as "Swiss Made" watches?

Quote: Originally Posted by wilco Unfortunately, with Michael being the "Technical Brand Manager" there is some basis for Michael knowing a little more than just what he is being "told" by Invicta.

When I bought up that Michael was knowledgable but not really a super technical saavy/watch maker trained technical expert....Michael seemed to get sort of miffed at my observation in the following reply in the following thread: http://watchgeeks.net/showthread.php...10#post1619710 (DD Speedway -Just wondering Where is Eyal and Mike ?) "...Well sir...I will tell you this. If you care to call my "technical chops" into question, then you can contact two of my good friends, who happen to be my competitors, into this.

Am I am watch maker? No. I am not. Never claimed to be. However, if you want to question my technical knowledge, then do me a favor...contact two of my competitors who happen to know me on a personal level and know the depth and effort that I put into every show that I do and every watch that I present...that would be Larry Magen with SO and Wing Liang with Android. I could add more to the list, but my two competitors and friends will suffice. Other than that, I am done with this thread. "

In reality, Michael cannot have it both ways depending on how the wind blows.

When it gets hot in the kitchen, Michael seems to get very defensive bordering on abrasive. Yet, When there are questions such as in this thread of a technical nature....why no "technical" reply on a technical question of manufacturing if he has such "technical chops" on Invicta products?

And, I am not bashing the job Michael does nor the knowledge which Michael possesses on Invicta products just as I was not bashing him in the previous thread (I was actually defending him in reference to not being expected to know the technical reason why the DD Speedways were failing). At which point Michael replies that his "technical chops" are not to be questioned. Ok, so be it from the experts mouth.

So, again, we have an issue that requires some knowledge which to me would be the kind of issue a "Technical Expert" or "Brand Manager" might be expected to know or at least follow up on and respond to.

This time it is not a trouble shooting kind of mechanical solution to the problems with the DD Speedways which I didnt expect Michael to be knowledgable about in the first place. This time it is just a question on the manufacturing practices of Invicta in their "swiss" and "Swiss Made" timepieces. Fairly simple question, isnt it?

And, now, we get a response that "I don't open the watches and I don't work on the watches. I can only present the information that I have been given."

What about the "technical chops" and how about a "I will get an answer for you on this" in this thread which would be nice?

Wilco, I agree with you 100%. You asked Michael a simple question that deserves a simple answer. Yes or no. kless13 View Public Profile Send a private message to kless13 Find all posts by kless13 Add kless13 to Your Contacts #361 Yesterday, 07:38 PM

timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by Flyback The whatever number of thousands of Chinese movements in Invicta watches labeled Swiss won't disappear.

That's for sure.

The same thing was done by Nixon. He tried a cover-up, and it was the cover-up that destroyed him. If he just came clean and told the truth he would have finished out his term. We need a Deep Throat informant to get to the bottom of this. __________________

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timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote: Originally Posted by Time Bandit It was there this morning, I checked.

I was trying to save it, but the app that I use (Flashgot) won't save the flash movies from Shopnbc.

I was going to try to get another app before it's disappearance.

Darnit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was going to PM you to do it, knowing your computer ability. __________________

timeman View Public Profile Send a private message to timeman Find all posts by timeman Add timeman to Your Contacts #363 Yesterday, 07:45 PM

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

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Maybe Shopnbc is going through all there video's to make sure of no new discoveries. I could figure out how to save it before it disappeared. __________________

icewolf64 View Public Profile Send a private message to icewolf64 Find all posts by icewolf64 Add icewolf64 to Your Contacts #364 Yesterday, 07:45 PM Argabright Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by timeman The same thing was done by Nixon. He tried a cover-up, and it was the cover-up that destroyed him. If he just came clean and told the truth he would have finished out his term. We need a Deep Throat informant to get to

the bottom of this.

I can already see it... Eyal waving tearfully as he boards a giant yellow helicopter to fly off into the sunset... __________________

Argabright View Public Profile Send a private message to Argabright Find all posts by Argabright Add Argabright to Your Contacts #365 Yesterday, 07:52 PM

timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Why can't they just give us the truth, so we all can move on? __________________

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,724 Real Name: Jerry

timeman View Public Profile Send a private message to timeman Find all posts by timeman Add timeman to Your Contacts #366 Yesterday, 07:55 PM

KMC1212 Senior Member Veteran Geek

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The new Reserve SAS Mid-size just says "SWISS", 'ABOVE' the 6:00 hour marker.......hmmmmmmmmmm.......I wonder if they put a chineese Ronda 515.24H movement in it.....This is the first SAS i've seen that doesn't say "Swiss Made" at the 6:00 position.....

KMC1212 View Public Profile Send a private message to KMC1212 Find all posts by KMC1212 Add KMC1212 to Your Contacts #367 Yesterday, 07:58 PM IB Ticken Senior Member Senior Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

This thread will remain open...

Thank you, George.

I've learned alot about watches since I joined WG, and am learning more every day.

I don't understand why anyone would want to hinder seeking the truth.

As has been stated all we're asking for is a reponse, from the top, to this thread. We, as loyal buyers of Invicta, deserve no less. If we eventually receive the response, I think we are all capable of determining if it is a whitewash. Many of us were born at night, but not last night.

THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!! __________________ "IT'S GOOD TO BE THE KING"---Mel Brooks, "History of the World, part 1" I B Ticken View Public Profile Send a private message to I B Ticken Find all posts by I B Ticken Add I B Ticken to Your Contacts #368 Yesterday, 08:06 PM Argabright Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by KMC1212 The new Reserve SAS Mid-size just says "SWISS" above the 6:00 hour marker.......hmmmmmmmmmm.......I wonder if they put a chineese Ronda 515 42H movement in it.....This is the first SAS i've seen that doesn't say "Swiss Made" at the 6:00 position.....

No mention by Mike or Tim about it's origin...

__________________

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by KMC1212 The new Reserve SAS Mid-size just says "SWISS" above the 6:00 hour marker.......hmmmmmmmmmm.......I wonder if they put a chineese Ronda 515 42H movement in it.....This is the first SAS i've seen that doesn't say "Swiss Made" at the 6:00 position.....

Quote: Originally Posted by Argabright No mention by Mike or Tim about it's origin...

I know where I'd put my money on this bet. __________________

Flyback View Public Profile Send a private message to Flyback Find all posts by Flyback Add Flyback to Your Contacts #370 Yesterday, 08:07 PM Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by timeman I had a feeling this was going to happen. The ShopNBC video of Eyal saying the Invicta Quinotaur in question J176920 was "ALL SWISS" is no longer there. It was removed by ShopNBC. Check for yourself. http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?trac...h-_-family-_-N I was going to ask someone then to YouTube it in my original post #172 but didn't. What other evidence is going to disappear?

They don't remove video's just because an item is sold out.

This video was removed for other reasons.

I watched the video this morning.

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kless13 Member Member Geek

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I recorded the video before it dissapeared.

Quote: Originally Posted by icewolf64 I figured that would happen too, but this means that this thread has been seen by their eyes.

That's OK, I recorded it for educational purposes. kless13 View Public Profile Send a private message to kless13 Find all posts by kless13 Add kless13 to Your Contacts #372 Yesterday, 08:16 PM

kless13 Member Member Geek

Not to Worry

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Quote: Originally Posted by timeman I had a feeling this was going to happen. The ShopNBC video of Eyal saying the Invicta Quinotaur in question J176920 was "ALL SWISS" is no longer there. It was removed by ShopNBC. Check for yourself. http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?trac...h-_-family-_-N I was going to ask someone then to YouTube it in my original post #172 but didn't. What other evidence is going to disappear?

Not to worry, I have a recording. kless13 View Public Profile Send a private message to kless13 Find all posts by kless13 Add kless13 to Your Contacts #373 Yesterday, 08:44 PM Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 62

crazyjay616 Member Member Geek

Wow, not only are they ignoring this thread, they are now trying to cover it up! crazyjay616 View Public Profile Find all posts by crazyjay616 Add crazyjay616 to Your Contacts #374 Yesterday, 09:20 PM

CharlieB Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by wilco Unfortunately, with Michael being the "Technical Brand Manager" there is some basis for Michael knowing a little more than just what he is being "told" by Invicta.

When I bought up that Michael was knowledgable but not really a super technical saavy/watch maker trained technical expert....Michael seemed to get sort of miffed at my observation in the following reply in the following thread: http://watchgeeks.net/showthread.php...10#post1619710 (DD Speedway -Just wondering Where is Eyal and Mike ?) "...Well sir...I will tell you this. If you care to call my "technical chops" into question, then you can contact two of my good friends, who happen to be my competitors, into this.

Am I am watch maker? No. I am not. Never claimed to be. However, if you want to question my technical knowledge, then do me a favor...contact two of my competitors who happen to know me on a personal level and know the depth and effort that I put into every show that I do and every watch that I present...that would be Larry Magen with SO and Wing Liang with Android. I could add more to the list, but my two competitors and friends will suffice. Other than that, I am done with this thread. "

In reality, Michael cannot have it both ways depending on how the wind blows.

When it gets hot in the kitchen, Michael seems to get very defensive bordering on abrasive. Yet, When there are questions such as in this thread of a technical nature....why no "technical" reply on a technical question of manufacturing if he has such "technical chops" on Invicta products?

And, I am not bashing the job Michael does nor the knowledge which Michael possesses on Invicta products just as I was not bashing him in the previous thread (I was actually defending him in reference to not being expected to know the technical reason why the DD Speedways were failing). At which point Michael replies that his "technical chops" are not to be questioned. Ok, so be it from the experts mouth.

So, again, we have an issue that requires some knowledge which to me would be the kind of issue a "Technical Expert" or "Brand Manager" might be expected to know or at least follow up on and respond to.

This time it is not a trouble shooting kind of mechanical solution to the problems with the DD Speedways which I didnt expect Michael to be knowledgable about in the first place. This time it is just a question on the manufacturing practices of Invicta in their "swiss" and "Swiss Made" timepieces. Fairly simple question, isnt it?

And, now, we get a response that "I don't open the watches and I don't work on the watches. I can only present the information that I have been given."

What about the "technical chops" and how about a "I will get an answer for you on this" in this thread which would be nice?

Extremely well stated. __________________

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Evil Empire Senior Member Senior Geek

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Just tell the truth I would be happy if they would just tell the truth ,and stop saying swiss made and swiss mean the same thing every time they say it it pushes me further away from the reserve watches im normally buying.

Today, 02:19 AM timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

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I wasn't able to watch all of the Invicta shows last night. The Invicta Reserve Mid-Size Specialty Subaqua Swiss GMT Stainless Steel Watch - J179565 was presented. As far as I know, this is the first Invicta "Reserve" that doesn't have "Swiss Made" at the 6 o'clock hour marker, but only 'Swiss." Was there any mention if this watch was "Swiss Made" and any discussion about the Swiss movement?

The movement in this watch is the Ronda 515.24H and is produced in two versions, one "Swiss Made" the other "Swiss Parts." Could it be this "Reserve" Invicta has the "Swiss Parts" movement, so the reason for not putting "Swiss Made" on the dial? It always was mentioned that the "Reserve" line were all "Swiss Made." Could it be this is no longer the case? __________________

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emathieu Senior Member Super Geek

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Wow. Removing the video discussed but no one posting anything in this thread says a lot in my opinion.

Of course, there are still many other videos still on ShopNBC where watches labeled simply as "Swiss" are described as "Swiss Made" - and I'm willing to bet that as we begin popping open these other "Swiss" labeled pieces we'll find that they also have Chinese movements... I just took a quick look, and found three videos where it is explicitly stated that these pieces are "Swiss Made" - including another RD where "Swiss" is at the 3 o'clock position. It is definitely being used as a selling point, otherwise it wouldn't be mentioned as often as it is.

Someone (preferably Eyal) really needs to step in and attempt to explain this situation. Although I really don't know what explanation he can have other than they "accidentally" misrepresented the origins of these watches. __________________ Eric. emathieu View Public Profile Send a private message to emathieu Find all posts by emathieu Add emathieu to Your Contacts

#378 Today, 04:21 AM

StephenC Senior Member Master WatchGeek

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So what do you want Invicta to do? My guess even it they come out and say "Swiss" means "Swiss made", some of you would not believe it anyway. So why bother. This has turned into one of those just keep piling it on kinda thread. If you don't feel the Swiss means Swiss made....and it bothers you this much, just don't buy the product. I am waiting for someone to post "Getta a rope......." __________________

have the time?

StephenC View Public Profile Send a private message to StephenC Find all posts by StephenC Add StephenC to Your Contacts #379 Today, 04:45 AM

Hey, does anyone

bigjimzlll Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by StephenC

So what do you want Invicta to do? My guess even it they come out and say "Swiss" means "Swiss made", some of you would not believe it anyway. So why bother. This has turned into one of those just keep piling it on kinda thread. If you don't feel the Swiss means Swiss made....and it bothers you this much, just don't buy the product. I am waiting for someone to post "Getta a rope......."

Did you read the thread?...or even look at the pictures? Invicta has said (in this thread) Swiss equals Swiss Made. The pictures have China movements in Swiss watches. __________________

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StephenC Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas The Metroplex (DFW) Posts: 2,830 Real Name: Guess ; )

Originally Posted by bigjimzlll Did you read the thread?...or even look at the pictures? Invicta has said (in this thread) Swiss equals Swiss Made. The pictures have China movements in Swiss watches.

Like I said, If it really bothers you all this much just don't buy the product. I sould not have posted in this thread....bad judgement call on my part....sorry... __________________

have the time?

Hey, does anyone

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emathieu Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA but my heart is still in NOLA Posts: 1,272 Real Name: Eric.

Originally Posted by StephenC

So what do you want Invicta to do? My guess even it they come out and say "Swiss" means "Swiss made", some of you would not believe it anyway. So why bother. This has turned into one of those just keep piling it on kinda thread. If you don't feel the Swiss means Swiss made....and it bothers you this much, just don't buy the product. I am waiting for someone to post "Getta a rope......."

Please read the whole thread before posting responses - it's a best practice anyway, but really vital on these 10+ page threads. This is not a "piling it on" thread - the issue is that Invicta has said that, but the reality is that a watch labeled "Swiss" has a Chinese movement. Look at the pics...

Everyone who has spent a lot of money on Invicta timepieces wants an explanation as to how something like this can happen.

As for just not buying the product, the problem is that people already have purchased them... __________________ Eric. emathieu View Public Profile Send a private message to emathieu Find all posts by emathieu Add emathieu to Your Contacts #382 Today, 05:08 AM XJames Member Member Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by timeman I wasn't able to watch all of the Invicta shows last night. The Invicta Reserve Mid-Size Specialty Subaqua Swiss GMT Stainless Steel Watch - J179565 was presented. As far as I know, this is the first Invicta "Reserve" that doesn't have "Swiss Made" at the 6 o'clock hour marker, but only 'Swiss." Was there any mention if this watch was "Swiss Made" and any discussion about the Swiss movement?

The movement in this watch is the Ronda 515.24H and is produced in two versions, one "Swiss Made" the other "Swiss Parts." Could it be this "Reserve" Invicta has the "Swiss Parts" movement, so the reason for not putting "Swiss Made" on the dial? It always was mentioned that the "Reserve" line were all "Swiss Made."

Could it be this is no longer the case?

I do not think those watches are listed in there Reserve Line catalog and the model numbers do not come up in there search feature either. The model numbers have been used to designate there Reserve Signature Collection

that was being sold on Amazon in the past.

Take it for what its worth but if ya likes it gets it but if your looking for a guarantee its "Swiss Made" I would have some concerns about that.

X-James View Public Profile Send a private message to X-James Find all posts by X-James Add X-James to Your Contacts #383 Today, 05:33 AM DIAMANTE Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by meijin ...snip... I can only present the information that I have been given. However, when I believe this information to be wrong, I will state as much. Some may not like that, but it is the only fair and honorable way that I know to do things....snip...

Fair enough.

Do you still believe Invicta follows the Swiss Federation guidelines for the watches they produce that are marked Swiss?

I noticed you had time to post a lenghthy statement in the thread were folks were praising you.

What about this one?

You say some may not like it if you tell the truth but it is the honorable thing to do. Does the "some" include Eyal Lalo?

We want to hear from you. You have referred to people in the past who brought this issue up as crazy conspiracy theorists. I understand you have a job you want to keep but at the least you owe us an apology.

I say again I have an Invicta watch marked Swiss on the dial with a Swiss Parts movement.

D __________________ Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c)

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2010gt Senior Member Super Geek

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My guess is the Swiss Federation would not accept Invicta as a member due to these type of stunts. What an incredibly interesting and informative thread this has become, it would be a total disgrace to close it. I guess 20k + Watchgeeks are seeing that you get what you pay for and as far as Invicta is concerned $100 watch marked Swiss is not equal to a $300 watch marked Swiss Made. Doesn't this bring the "reserve" line's hand built all swiss made claims into question? __________________

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James Member Member Geek

Date: May 2010 Posts: 30

Alright now ... lets not be a lynch mob.

You present as to what you are told to present and present it as you are told to present it. You take it as to how it is given to you. Unless he physically opened the cases to look and see it is what it is how would he know.

Yes he might question it, yes he might think differently but he does what he is told to do and does it how he is told to do it ... so why are some trying to lynch Mr Davis or even Mr Skelton in this matter?

It is Eyal Lalo who really needs to answer the questions at hand or at least that is who I thought made the decisions at Invicta Watch or has something changed. Nobody can speak for him and if he asks for somebody to speak for him regarding the questions at hand I would hope they respectfully say no and do not allow themselves to be put into the middle of this. Yes Mike could speak for Invicta in this matter and if Eyal tells him to than I am sure he will but currently I honestly do not think he has been given the green light to speak for Invicta and is smarter than you realize by keeping his nose out of this topic at this time.

So lets not be a lynch mob on this. If you purchase a watch and think it is not what you think it was presented as open it and if its not what it was than send it back to ShopNBC and tell them it was not what they sold it as.

If this happens enough times than ShopNBC will begin to also question what your questioning and get to the bottom of this as well but lets NOT turn into a lynch mob looking for blood when all you want is answers to the questions.

X-James View Public Profile Send a private message to X-James Find all posts by X-James Add X-James to Your Contacts #386 Today, 06:29 AM DIAMANTE Senior Member Super Geek

edited double post. D __________________ Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c)

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Quote: Originally Posted by X-James Alright now ... lets not be a lynch mob. ...snip...lets NOT turn into a lynch mob looking for blood when all you want is answers to the questions.

Lynch mob? Don't be so dramatic. We are just waiting for an explanation.

Michael Davis is an authorized spokesperson for Invicta.

He and JSkelton have said repeatedly said over the years that when Invicta puts Swiss on a watch it meets the Swiss Federation guidelines for a Swiss Made watch. Swiss = Swiss Made, nuff said is how I saw it put on more than one occassion.

They even took a step farther and questioned the sanity of those who expressed doubt in their claims.

Now their claim that with Invicta Swiss=Swiss Made has been blown out of the water.

Michael Davis is a grown man he will do just fine without you defending him.

D __________________ Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c) DIAMANTE View Public Profile Send a private message to DIAMANTE Find all posts by DIAMANTE Add DIAMANTE to Your Contacts #388

Today, 06:51 AM sandman20 Senior Member Super Geek

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This is all quite interesting in a very negative way. I'm wearing one of my two Venom's purchased from Amazon that says only SWISS at 6:00. I was always led to believe that SWISS does equal SWISS MADE. Are these primarily Chinese watches? Sounds like it. Would I have paid $385 per watch if I knew they were not SWISS MADE, no I would not have. I would have purchased one of the many other Venom models available that do say SWISS MADE. I can see why everyone is so upset, I know I am. sandman20 View Public Profile Send a private message to sandman20 Find all posts by sandman20 Add sandman20 to Your Contacts #389 Today, 06:54 AM XJames Member Member Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by DIAMANTE Michael Davis is a grown man he will do just fine without you defending him.D I am not defending him, not at all. He and Mr Skelton made some bold statements in regards to this topic but unless they actually popped open cases they were just going by what they were told and what they believe as well.

I just think that your kind of demands in wanting them to step forward and answer for the crimes(?) there being accused/convicted of ... is kind of like a lynch mob mentality way of demanding answers.

Trust me I'm not defending them and I would like to see them speak on this topic as well but they are not the ones that caused the questions to be asked in the first place.

X-James

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Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by StephenC

So what do you want Invicta to do? My guess even it they come out and say "Swiss" means "Swiss made", some of you would not believe it anyway. So why bother. This has turned into one of those just keep piling it on kinda thread. If you don't feel the Swiss means Swiss made....and it bothers you this much, just don't buy the product. I am waiting for someone to post "Getta a rope......."

Really? Thanks for the sage like advice there!

Tell me Stephen, what about all of us who have hundreds and thousands of dollars worth of these "Swiss = Swiss Made" watches that are packing cheap dime store Chinese movements? You know, those of us who have got taken and want an explanation?

So in your mind we are owed nothing? Just let it go huh? Not going to happen.

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XJames Member Member Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by sandman20 This is all quite interesting in a very negative way. I'm wearing one of my two Venom's purchased from Amazon that says only SWISS at 6:00. I was always led to believe that SWISS does equal SWISS MADE. Are these primarily Chinese watches? Sounds like it. Would I have paid $385 per watch if I knew they were not SWISS MADE, no I would not have. I would have purchased one of the many other Venom models available that do say SWISS MADE. I can see why everyone is so upset, I know I am.

It would be interesting to know what exactly is in that Venom. What is the model number shown on the caseback and does it say "Reserve Signature Collection" on the caseback as well?

X-James View Public Profile Send a private message to X-James Find all posts by X-James Add X-James to Your Contacts #392 Today, 07:03 AM sandman20 Senior Member Super Geek

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On the back of the watch it says INVICTA RESERVE in the middle and RESERVE COLLECTION at the bottom. The model # is F0003. I thought all Reserve's (other than the Lupah) had to be SWISS MADE. So maybe it is, who knows? sandman20 View Public Profile Send a private message to sandman20 Find all posts by sandman20 Add sandman20 to Your Contacts

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StephenC Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote: Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy Really? Thanks for the sage like advice there!

Tell me Stephen, what about all of us who have hundreds and thousands of dollars worth of these "Swiss = Swiss Made" watches that are packing cheap dime store Chinese movements? You know, those of us who have got taken and want an explanation?

So in your mind we are owed nothing? Just let it go huh? Not going to happen.

Quote: Originally Posted by StephenC

I sould not have posted in this thread....bad judgement call on my part....sorry... .. __________________

have the time?

StephenC

Hey, does anyone

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Quote: Originally Posted by sandman20 On the back of the watch it says INVICTA RESERVE in the middle and RESERVE COLLECTION at the bottom. The model # is F0003. I thought all Reserve's (other than the Lupah) had to be SWISS MADE. So maybe it is, who knows?

It might be interesting to see if that particular model number is listed on the Invicta site in reserve catalog or even listed in any collection at all.

I would also like to correct myself. That particular watch is from the "Exclusive" Reserve Collection. If I can go out on a limb on this I think there used to be an "Exclusive" collection of various Invicta's available thru Amazon and just recently have been popping up at other internet sources.

It was originally, I think at least it was originally the Russian Divers in these collections at Amazon being just marked "Swiss" that originally brought this whole "Swiss" vs "Swiss Made" topic up.

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Quote: Originally Posted by StephenC

So what do you want Invicta to do? My guess even it they come out and say "Swiss" means "Swiss made", some of you would not believe it anyway. So why bother. This has turned into one of those just keep piling it on kinda thread. If you don't feel the Swiss means Swiss made....and it bothers you this much, just don't buy the product. I am waiting for someone to post "Getta a rope......."

Can people stop posting in this thread without even reading it!!!! crazyjay616 View Public Profile Find all posts by crazyjay616 Add crazyjay616 to Your Contacts #396 Today, 07:29 AM Taxg8r00 Member Member Geek

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I can't believe this thread has gone on for a couple of days now and no one from Invicta or Shop has stepped up to the plate. All we are is asking is what does "Swiss" on the dial mean. I know what Michael has said (I have a Tivo'd version of a show) and he said "Swiss=Swiss Made". I don't care if he says he made a mistake or what, just want someone to step up and address the issue. I will not buy another Invicta until I get an answer and I will advise others of the same.

In full disclosure I bought my wife an Invicta Diver strap watch that says "Swiss Movt" on the dial and I have no problems with that as I know what I am getting - a Chinese watch with a swiss parts movement.

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Today, 07:36 AM

tampa8 Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by StephenC

My guess even it they come out and say "Swiss" means "Swiss made", some of you would not believe it anyway.

You have apparently unwittingly defined this whole thread in that one statement. Had Invicta/Shop NOT said that, this thread would not be needed. But in fact they said just that, and we are seeing proof that it appears "Swiss" means at least partly parts from or made in China. I have seen nothing official to address this which of course leads to more skepticisim. If that video was deleted, when others are not, that is also disturbing unless accompanied by an explanation. If anyone feels we don't need an explantion for this type of issue, I believe sale numbers from the hardcore buyers will speak volumes in the future.

I do want to add, at least the thread is being allowed to proceed, and I hope we can keep it civil so that it does live.

I also echo the post above this one. I already stated it isn't so much that the watch isn't what most would consider "Swiss Made", but rather specifically being told it is, when it appears it is not. Just tell us the truth, I can then decide if the price of a watch is what I am willing to pay based on fact. Having parts from China in a watch I like at a good price is ok. (And I own a couple of automatic Chinese made movement watches) Having a watch that is supposed to be "Swiss Made" and a price higher than I might like, but buy because it is "Swiss Made" is not ok. __________________ Remember, watches are people too. tampa8 View Public Profile Send a private message to tampa8 Find all posts by tampa8 Add tampa8 to Your Contacts #398 Today, 07:42 AM

Doc Hollidey Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy I have wondered the same thing. If true it is pretty shady from my point of view.

Are you implying that Invicta is shady? (sarcasm) __________________

I'm your huckleberry...

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How about leaving StephenC alone already, can't you see where he apologized and said he shouldn't have posted! sandman20 View Public Profile Send a private message to sandman20 Find all posts by sandman20 Add sandman20 to Your Contacts

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#400 Today, 07:52 AM

InvictaValjoux Junior Member New Geek

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I just have to ask, since proof is already here of misleading consumers, where does the truth end with Invicta?

Why think that all the watches marked as "Swiss Made" are the real deal?

TeamInvicta WatchGeeks VIP Senior Geek

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Statement - by Eyal I have been asked to personally clarify the confusion with the markings on the watches. I feel I have a confident and open enough relationship with our customers to make a clear statement and get this matter clarified once and for all. While I know that it is impossible to satisfy everyone, it is our commitment to keep a top level relationship with our very loyal customer base.

There is a definite gray area in the use of the words Swiss•, Swiss Made•, Swiss Movements•, Swiss Parts•, Swiss Components•, and Swiss Registration•. The fact of the matter is that, like in many multiple-componentproducts, where the country of origin adds value to the product, we tend to highlight that.

A perfect example is the auto industry. You might buy a Mercedes that is manufactured in Mexico using German engineering, some German parts, etc. The brand focuses on highlighting their Germanstandards. Much in the same way, the watch industry does when Swiss is present. Without mentioning brands, it is important to understand that Switzerland almost produces NO watch components except parts associated with the movements, and assembly. What this means is that if you bought a $6000.00 Swiss Made

Chronograph from Brand X•, what you are likely buying is a watch that houses a Swiss Made movement (And even the movement components themselves have their own complicated breakdown value. For instance, even if a movement is Swiss Made•, it does not mean every part in the movement was made in Switzerland, only a given percentage of that ) and the watch was assembled and tested in Switzerland. We do the same, and hopefully that brings clarity to everyone that when we mark a watch Swiss Made•, you are buying a Swiss Made watch with a Swiss made movement, that is assembled in Switzerland.

Then we get into the way we use the word SWISS. The the word Swisswas used on watches as a description for a watch using a movement with Swiss part Origins. This includes movements that are bought from SWISS COMPANIES, with SWISS ENGENEERING, that are tested in Switzerland, but has components that are sent off to the Far East for cost purposes to be assembled. Examples of these are ETA, Ronda, ISA, Far East versions•. They were developed to assist in delivering the consumer more value, on an otherwise identical item. Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss Movement Far East assembly version. Yes as companies we do call more attention to this than the fact that the movement is assembled in China, but that is marketing.

Then there is the talk about the Swiss Federation. I cannot speak too much into the Swiss Federation standard because it is a private foreign entity, not a law dictating body, and we do not belong to it for a variety of reasons I prefer not to go into. I respect companies developing a stamp of approval and charging for it, such as COSC, but to be part of a group that develops standards on watches based on the direction of the big playersin the watch industry, and attempting to apply them to smaller companies without giving them a fair chance, is a monopoly, and I am strongly against that.

I make this statement on a personal level, and hope that it can bring some level of clarity to this discussion.

Sincerely, Eyal TeamInvicta View Public Profile Send a private message to TeamInvicta Find all posts by TeamInvicta Add TeamInvicta to Your Contacts #402 Today, 07:59 AM

Argabright Senior Member Super Geek

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Eyal, Was Michael Davis repeating what you told him about "Swiss" being the same as "SWISS MADE", or was that an assumption that he made on his own? __________________

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So what's the difference between "Swiss" and "Swiss Parts Movement"? crazyjay616 View Public Profile

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Find all posts by crazyjay616 Add crazyjay616 to Your Contacts #404 Today, 08:10 AM Taxg8r00 Member Member Geek

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So if I am reading correctly in Eyal post Swiss DOES NOT = Swiss Made, correct?

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That is what I got from it. frankc6053 View Public Profile Send a private message to frankc6053 Find all posts by frankc6053 Add frankc6053 to Your Contacts #406 Today, 08:13 AM

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MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Finally, the truth, as we have previously discussed in this thread! I hope there is no more "bobing and weaving" this story on air anymore........the word "swiss" by itself is meaningless.............and "swiss made" is almost as useless..........they need to change the law!!!!!

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Quote: Originally Posted by TeamInvicta Without mentioning brands, it is important to understand that Switzerland almost produces NO watch components except parts associated with the movements, and assembly. What this means is that if you bought a $6000.00 Swiss Made Chronograph from Brand X•, what you are likely buying is a watch that houses a Swiss Made movement (And even the movement components themselves have their own complicated breakdown value. For instance, even if a movement is Swiss Made•, it does not mean every part in the movement was made in Switzerland, only a given percentage of that ) and the watch was assembled and tested in Switzerland. We do the same, and hopefully that brings clarity to everyone that when we mark a watch Swiss Made•, you are buying a Swiss Made watch with a Swiss made movement, that is assembled in Switzerland.

So what your saying is even if you have "Swiss Made" on a watch that it might not actually all be "Swiss Made"???

Also since you wanted to bring the auto industry into this as a reference you might consider doing the same thing they do. On the window of a new car they list what % of the car parts came from what countries and exactly where the car was assembled. Since you mentioned car parts and new cars maybe you could do as they

and list where parts came from and where they were assembled ... just a thought.

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InvictaValjoux Junior Member New Geek

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Eyal, thank you for your response.

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OmegaMeister Senior Member Super Geek

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Thank you to Eyal for addressing this. I appreciate it.

It is what I thought it was.

I'll keep sticking with the Swiss Made products. __________________

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2010gt Senior Member Super Geek

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Eyal's response is welcome and appreciated...how often would a CEO of a company reply on a forum to this type of subject matter - Not often, if ever. That being said, there were a lot of inferences made by himself and others on TV about watches being "entirely" swiss made, and so on and so forth. I guess you guys that bought the "chinese" versions will have to decide the ultimate outcome in this matter. To buy, or not to buy, is the future question... __________________

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Thank you Eyal for clarifying the situation. It is what had been said in this thread but it good to hear it from the Owner. __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away watchluv View Public Profile Send a private message to watchluv Find all posts by watchluv Add watchluv to Your Contacts #412 Today, 09:07 AM timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

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I read Invicta's above statementt. I don't care if the watch has Swiss parts, if a watch company puts "Swiss" on the dial it needs at least a "Swiss Made" movement period, that's the law according to the U.S. Custom regulations. So if you are going to use Chinese movements with Swiss parts take "Swiss" off the dial, and state the watch has a Swiss parts movement. __________________

timeman View Public Profile Send a private message to timeman Find all posts by timeman Add timeman to Your Contacts #413 Today, 09:09 AM XJames Member Member Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by 2010gt Eyal's response is welcome and appreciated...how often would a CEO of a company reply on a forum to this type of subject matter - Not often, if ever. That being said, there were a lot of inferences made by himself and others on TV about watches being "entirely" swiss made, and so on and so forth. I guess you guys that bought the "chinese" versions will have to decide the ultimate outcome in this matter. To buy, or not to buy, is the future question...

You have a very good point in stating that it is up to the consumer now on whether to buy or not to buy, but the question that each consumer who is now aware of this is whether they still have any trust left on what they are

buying and who they are buying from. If they are going to do what they did in the past and only rather fess up when caught what else could they or still be doing. Its not only an issue of knowing what your buying but it is also an issue of trusting the people your buying from and it sounds like some knowingly might have put that trust in jeapordy to make a dollar.

On a side note I wonder what this, can we call it misrepresentations does with the relationship of Invicta and ShopNBC? It would be interesting to know how ShopNBC feels about this whole matter of misrepresentation since it was done on there channel.

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sandman20 Senior Member Super Geek

To the OP, possibly you should add to the title- "Response from Eyal, post #401" I can honestly say I'm very disappointed with Eyal's answer as I just found out my Venom's marked SWISS are not SWISS MADE as I thought they were. I am appreciative that Eyal did come forward and clarify. sandman20 View Public Profile Send a private message to sandman20 Find all posts by sandman20 Add sandman20 to Your Contacts #415 Today, 09:22 AM Scout13 Senior Member Senior Geek

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I am still some what confused on the issue, not that I care where the parts are made, as long as the watch works well for a very long time is my only major concern...But! I like others have seen and heard on shop shows that Swiss and Swiss made are the same thing, guess not! and all those guys that buy the high priced autos like the 7750, 7751 may not even have a complete movt. of swiss parts. I guess that lets some of the hot air out of the balloon for the purist type collector. Not that it would make a bit of diff. to me but some may be chapped about that, as they have collected on the fact that there auto movt's were made a 100% in Switzerland.

So what about swiss movt. I would imagine that some of the movt. is made from some swiss parts and the remainder is made elsewhere, and the building of the watch is elsewhere also!

Looks to me like no matter what, Swiss Made is only a percentage and that means movt. also. I could care less as long as the watch looks good, wears good and runs good for a long time...I am fine!! __________________

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kless13 Member Member Geek

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Here is a video from Shop that is going to air the RQ 12 am ET tonight with the SWISS at the 3 position and Michael says that there wasn't enough room to put the SWISS designation at the 6, so they put it at the 3, but that it is still "SWISS MADE"! This has to stop! http://www.shopnbc.com/Invicta_Men_s...aspx?storeid=1 kless13 View Public Profile Send a private message to kless13 Find all posts by kless13 Add kless13 to Your Contacts #417 Today, 09:26 AM MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Kinda like Toto discovering that the Wizard of Oz was behind the curtain........anyone need some more egg on thier faces? It comes as no surprize to me.......sad it took so long..........They (Invicta) make a great product, I knew when I read the Swiss law years ago that it was all smoke and mirrors. that said........I continued to buy thier product and will.........in the future.......I'm just glad that Shop and Invicta "bellied up to the bar". maybe some labeling changes will take place due to this......at least I feel a little vendicated.

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bhar21 Senior Member Master WatchGeek

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Like beatin a dead horse, been discussed many many times before! __________________

Bryan bhar21 View Public Profile Send a private message to bhar21 Find all posts by bhar21 Add bhar21 to Your Contacts #419 Today, 09:31 AM watchluv Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by timeman I read Invicta's above statementt. I don't care if the watch has Swiss parts, if a watch company puts "Swiss" on the dial it needs at least a "Swiss Made" movement period, that's the law according to the U.S. Custom regulations. So if you are going to use Chinese movements with Swiss parts take "Swiss off the dial, and state the watch has a Swiss parts movement.

"Just a fact to remember when purchasing an Invicta if it doesn't say Swiss Made on the dial then you have an Asian assembled movement inside. Only the watches Marked Swiss Made from Invicta have a Swiss assembled movement inside. It makes you wonder is there anything else that we are being mislead and just haven't uncovered the truth yet". __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away watchluv

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Scout13 Senior Member Senior Geek

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Well, its being discussed again! and rightly so!! __________________

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Quote: Originally Posted by MREXE Kinda like Toto discovering that the Wizard of Oz was behind the curtain........anyone need some more egg on thier faces? It comes as no surprize to me.......sad it took so long..........They (Invicta) make a great product, I knew when I read the Swiss law years ago that it was all smoke and mirrors. that said........I continued to buy thier product and will.........in the future.......I'm just glad that Shop and Invicta "bellied up to the bar". maybe some labeling changes will take place due to this......at least I feel a little vendicated.

I feel very little vindicated to say the least. kless13 View Public Profile Send a private message to kless13 Find all posts by kless13 Add kless13 to Your Contacts #422 Today, 09:32 AM watchluv Senior Member Super Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by bhar21 Like beatin a dead horse, been discussed many many times before!

Not this time. This time we got the answer from the horses mouth. __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away watchluv View Public Profile Send a private message to watchluv Find all posts by watchluv Add watchluv to Your Contacts

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#423 Today, 09:35 AM

Scout13 Senior Member Senior Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by watchluv Not this time. This time we got the answer from the horses mouth.

You got that right, plus 1 here!! __________________

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To Everyone ----First, a big Thank-you to Eyal for addressing this issue here with us.

Second, I beg everyone to carefully read the reply and let it sink in. If you have read my posts I am in no way an appologist. But I can now see another side to this whole story, and to me Eyal was very honest with us, more than many CEO's would be.

It can be argued, by putting just the word "Swiss" on the watches instead of "Swiss Made", Invicta was actually being honest in that the watch is being produced differently. Further, I am reading it is the postion of Invicta that they feel justified in calling it the same as "Swiss Made" in that the movements are Swiss movements, from Swiss companies, but now being assembled in China. You may agree with or disagree with their conclusion, but I feel better hearing the explanation, together with not continuing to use "Swiss Made" on these watches. Maybe a little better explanation should have come our way sooner of what Mike meant, but we now have it and I for one am glad it came, and feel better about the whole thing. __________________ Remember, watches are people too. tampa8 View Public Profile Send a private message to tampa8 Find all posts by tampa8 Add tampa8 to Your Contacts #425 Today, 09:42 AM trav Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by Argabright If a company can label a watch SWISS that contains a Chinese movement, how much of the other claims they make about their products can you trust?

Just sayin' That is the whole point!

The other point is with Invicta claiming to build so many watches in Switzerland with Swiss factories

supposedly producing them the fact that they do not belong to the Swiss Federation just "smells" bad to me.

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BabyDoc Senior Member Senior Geek

What bother's me about Eyal's response is he doesn't comment on the Invicta examples shown in this thread where the watch was clearly marked as Swiss Made, yet it contains a BRANDLESS, made in china movement. Even if that movement was a Rhonda movement, assembled in China from swiss engineered and swiss made Rhonda parts, how do we know that's true, when the movement isn't even branded with the Rhonda name. It makes you wonder whether it is really a cheap Chinese knock-off of a Rhonda movement, made of inferior chinese made parts that were assembled completely in China.

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CharlieB Senior Member True WatchGeek

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So then, the bottom line is that all of the many times Invicta sellers on Shop have stated on air that Swiss on the dial equals Swiss Made, they were not telling the truth.

The truth is that Swiss on an Invicta dial can mean that only Swiss parts are used in the movement, a far cry

from their Swiss Made claim.

Eyal, and all Invicta sellers, from this point on you should all be extremely careful to not make statements about your watches that are not true. It seriously damages your credibility.

And worse, making false statements to modivate your potential customers to purchase your products is at best unethical, and at worst illegal. __________________

The Celebration's Coming.............. It's Back To Back Time Again Baby!!!

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timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,724 Real Name: Jerry

Originally Posted by kless13 Here is a video from Shop that is going to air the RQ 12 am ET tonight with the SWISS at the 3 position and Michael says that there wasn't enough room to put the SWISS designation at the 6, so they put it at the 3, but that it is still "SWISS MADE"! This has to stop! http://www.shopnbc.com/Invicta_Men_s...aspx?storeid=1 You better watch the video now, because I'm sure it will be removed by ShopNBC shortly. __________________

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bluloo Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by TeamInvicta I have been asked to personally clarify the confusion with the markings on the watches. ...

Thanks for the honesty.

Awesome posting. bluloo View Public Profile Send a private message to bluloo

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bluloo Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by CharlieB So then, the bottom line is that all of the many times Invicta sellers on Shop have stated on air that Swiss on the dial equals Swiss Made, they were not telling the truth...

Perhaps they were either misinformed or poorly educated, versus intentionally lying... bluloo View Public Profile Send a private message to bluloo Find all posts by bluloo Add bluloo to Your Contacts #431 Today, 09:55 AM

samuelrz Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Join Date: May 2009 Location: N. California Posts: 1,332 Real Name: Sam

Originally Posted by TeamInvicta I have been asked to personally clarify the confusion with the markings on the watches. I feel I have a confident and open enough relationship with our customers to make a clear statement and get this matter clarified once and for all. While I know that it is impossible to satisfy everyone, it is our commitment to keep a top level relationship with our very loyal customer base.

There is a definite gray area in the use of the words Swiss•, Swiss Made•, Swiss Movements•, Swiss Parts•, Swiss Components•, and Swiss Registration•. The fact of the matter is that, like in many multiplecomponentproducts, where the country of origin adds value to the product, we tend to highlight that.

A perfect example is the auto industry. You might buy a Mercedes that is manufactured in Mexico using German engineering, some German parts, etc. The brand focuses on highlighting their Germanstandards.

Much in the same way, the watch industry does when Swiss is present. Without mentioning brands, it is important to understand that Switzerland almost produces NO watch components except parts associated with the movements, and assembly. What this means is that if you bought a $6000.00 Swiss Made Chronograph from Brand X•, what you are likely buying is a watch that houses a Swiss Made movement (And even the movement components themselves have their own complicated breakdown value. For instance, even if a movement is Swiss Made•, it does not mean every part in the movement was made in Switzerland, only a given percentage of that ) and the watch was assembled and tested in Switzerland. We do the same, and hopefully that brings clarity to everyone that when we mark a watch Swiss Made•, you are buying a Swiss Made watch with a Swiss made movement, that is assembled in Switzerland.

Then we get into the way we use the word SWISS•. The the word Swisswas used on watches as a description for a watch using a movement with Swiss part Origins. This includes movements that are bought from SWISS COMPANIES, with SWISS ENGENEERING, that are tested in Switzerland, but has components that are sent off to the Far East for cost purposes to be assembled. Examples of these are ETA, Ronda, ISA, Far East versions•. They were developed to assist in delivering the consumer more value, on an otherwise identical item. Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss Movement Far East assembly version. Yes as companies we do call more attention to this than the fact that the movement is assembled in China, but that™s marketing.

Then there is the talk about the Swiss Federation. I cannot speak too much into the Swiss Federation standard because it is a private foreign entity, not a law dictating body, and we do not belong to it for a variety of reasons I prefer not to go into. I respect companies developing a stamp of approval and charging for it, such as COSC, but to be part of a group that develops standards on watches based on the direction of the big playersin the watch industry, and attempting to apply them to smaller companies without giving them a fair chance, is a monopoly, and I am strongly against that.

I make this statement on a personal level, and hope that it can bring some level of clarity to this discussion.

Sincerely, Eyal Thanks Eyal. As I thought this is more of a Swiss Industry issue/trend than anything nefarious by Invicta. No, I am not defending Invicta and I have slammed them in the past when I had issues, but as I stated prior this is more marketing than anything else. __________________ SAM -

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Quote: Originally Posted by timeman You better watch the video now, because I'm sure it will be removed by ShopNBC shortly.

Thanks, I watched and I'm sure it will be removed after someone reads this thread. He did clearly say it is Swiss Made which as we now know for sure just isn't so. __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away watchluv View Public Profile Send a private message to watchluv Find all posts by watchluv Add watchluv to Your Contacts #433 Today, 10:01 AM 2010gt Senior Member

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This speaks to the future values of all the lines, not just the "lower end" products. Reputation DOES affect market value, this is why very few Invictas hold any value except amongst collectors. I still love my SANIV, I will just avoid bragging about its heritage and quality because I don't like to be made to look foolish. I now look at these watches more as just fashionable sport watches, rather than collectibles. __________________

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vbobdriveguy Senior Member Master WatchGeek

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Personally, I couldn't care less if a watch (or it's movement) are made in Switzerland, China, Japan, or New Jersey (Ok. Maybe not New Jersey LOL). As long as it works and keeps good time, that's good enough for me.

That being so stated, it would be nice if the sellers were more up front and accurate in describing the origins for those who it does matter to. It's just not right to use these terms loosely in order to boost sales. I'm not saying that anyone is lying. I know that this is common practice in sales. I just think that it would be nice if they were

more truthfull with their information. __________________

Jay

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kless13 Member Member Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by tampa8 To Everyone ----First, a big Thank-you to Eyal for addressing this issue here with us.

Second, I beg everyone to carefully read the reply and let it sink in. If you have read my posts I am in no way an appologist. But I can now see another side to this whole story, and to me Eyal was very honest with us, more than many CEO's would be.

It can be argued, by putting just the word "Swiss" on the watches instead of "Swiss Made", Invicta was actually being honest in that the watch is being produced differently. Further, I am reading it is the postion of Invicta that they feel justified in calling it the same as "Swiss Made" in that the movements are Swiss movements, from Swiss companies, but now being assembled in China. You may agree with or disagree with

their conclusion, but I feel better hearing the explanation, together with not continuing to use "Swiss Made" on these watches. Maybe a little better explanation should have come our way sooner of what Mike meant, but we now have it and I for one am glad it came, and feel better about the whole thing.

Tampa, I didn't take it that Eyal feels justified calling Swiss and Swiss Made the same in that post. Eyal says "Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss Movement Far East assembly version". I don't think he also feels that a "Swiss Made" watch is also generally a very inexpensive watch. And in this post, I do feel that Eyal relays the message that Swiss doesn't equal Swiss Made. Maybe I misunderstood the article. If so please chime in. kless13 View Public Profile Send a private message to kless13 Find all posts by kless13 Add kless13 to Your Contacts #436 Today, 10:11 AM

bluloo Senior Member Veteran Geek

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I'm really not sure why anyone is surprised.

Any company's advertising/marketing hype is the worst place to be educated about a product.

Seems a bit like the self-imposed illusion has been stripped away and some aren't happy that the Emperor is actually naked. bluloo View Public Profile Send a private message to bluloo Find all posts by bluloo Add bluloo to Your Contacts #437 Today, 10:11 AM rudayo

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I guess I am confused. It's great the issue was addressed, somewhat. But how does it answer the other raging question in the thread?

What is the explanation on the repeated claims when presenting watches labeld SWISS that they were Swiss Made (see vidoes in thread)? This was done many, many times, from all personnel from top down.

From the response, it is clear that they KNOW that when they label an item as SWISS that is not Swiss Made.

Yet they made the claims on air anyway.... rudayo View Public Profile Send a private message to rudayo Find all posts by rudayo Add rudayo to Your Contacts #438 Today, 10:15 AM marlboro Member Member Geek

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Well, this confirms what i suspected all along. If you read any of flybacks post in this very long thread, you will see that Swiss on the dial, if you are not a member of the federation means nothing.

This issue was that , Invicta claimed that if one of their watches says swiss on the dial, it means swiss made.

That is obviously a lie, as supported by Eyal himslef here, and they use it as marketing, plain and simple.

Member of federation or not, if you sell a watch in the US, and mark it swiss made, it has to meet the guidlines of the swiss federation to be marked as such, so of course a watch with the words Swiss on it, is not the same, If you could have labled it swiss made, you would have.

So, anyone , if you dont care about movement, or origins of it, etc, keep buying. If swiss made is important to you , do not buy a watch from Invicta marked Swiss, because it is not the same.

I dont really think much else can be said on this topic, it has been covered, and what we have found out is that, they were using nothing else but a marketing tactic, and because the word Swiss on the dial is not regulated unless your a member of the federation, it can be grey area all day, because they have done nothing legally

wrong, just ethically wrong, and lied to the customers. Where you spend your money on watches in the future, is up to you. marlboro View Public Profile Send a private message to marlboro Find all posts by marlboro Add marlboro to Your Contacts #439 Today, 10:19 AM

gman66 Senior Member Veteran Geek

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A controversy that will never be settled to everyone's satisfaction.

But interesting reading... __________________ Bullwinkle: "Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!" gman66 View Public Profile Send a private message to gman66 Find all posts by gman66 Add gman66 to Your Contacts #440 Today, 10:25 AM BabyDoc Senior Member Senior Geek

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Eyal's statement: "Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss Movement Far East assembly version. Yes as companies we do call more attention to this than the fact that the movement is assembled in China, but that™s marketing."

I don't know about everyone else, but I don't call not emphasizing the whole truth as marketing. I call that deceit to make a buck. I appreciate Eyal's honesty with his statement here. I don't appreciate his company's dishonesty with the way they have been marketing their watches. The fact that other watch companies say the same "now you see it (Swiss Made on the dial), and now you don't ( made in China on the movement)", doesn't excuse any of them.

BabyDoc View Public Profile Send a private message to BabyDoc Find all posts by BabyDoc Add BabyDoc to Your Contacts #441 Today, 10:28 AM crazyjay616 Member Member Geek

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So Invicta is knowingly and willfully DECEIVING customers by labeling watches "Swiss" instead of "Swiss Parts Movement" WTFFFFF crazyjay616 View Public Profile Find all posts by crazyjay616 Add crazyjay616 to Your Contacts #442 Today, 10:36 AM kless13 Member

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Quote: Originally Posted by BabyDoc Eyal's statement: "Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss Movement Far East assembly version. Yes as companies we do call more attention to this than the fact that the movement is assembled in China, but that™s marketing."

I don't know about everyone else, but I don't call not emphasizing the whole true as marketing. I call that deceit to make a buck. I appreciate Eyal's honesty with his statement here. I don't appreciate his companies dishonesty with the way they have been marketing their watches. The fact that other watch companies say the same "now you see it (Swiss Made on the dial), now you don't ( made in China on the movement)", doesn't excuse any of them.

I agree with you Bill. We'll just have to see if they continue to call Swiss and Swiss Made the same. I don't think they will from this point on. kless13 View Public Profile Send a private message to kless13 Find all posts by kless13 Add kless13 to Your Contacts #443 Today, 10:40 AM

InvictaValjoux Junior Member New Geek

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What next Invicta?

This is not a trend that assures me that my dollars are well spent with you. Why was the deception necessary? __________________

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kless13 Member Member Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by InvictaValjoux What next Invicta?

This is not a trend that assures me that my dollars are well spent with you. Why was the deception necessary?

To sell massive amounts of watches! It's good that this thread came about, or Invicta would never have come clean. kless13 View Public Profile Send a private message to kless13 Find all posts by kless13

Add kless13 to Your Contacts #445 Today, 10:48 AM Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Eyal, I have read your statement.

The Statement confirms the subject of what this thread is pertaining to, and for you to personally respond speaks volumes.

To recap, "Swiss ≠Swiss Made".

Quote: Originally Posted by TeamInvicta .....Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss Movement Far East assembly version.

(Question)Will you and your team continue, in the future, to verbally market your watches as "Swiss Made" if the item(s) have been marked with the word "Swiss" on the dial?

Time Bandit View Public Profile Send a private message to Time Bandit Send email to Time Bandit Find all posts by Time Bandit Add Time Bandit to Your Contacts #446 Today, 11:00 AM XJames Member Member Geek

Just something for all to think about ...

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 30

Would Invicta now have had to come clean on the deception of it all if they had not tried to deceive you in the first place?

I just dont get all the back patting praise for coming clean on this when if they had just been honest from the start this would never be what it is now.

I truly wonder how long it would have gone on if they had not been caught in the deception ... probably for a long long time.

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KMC1212 Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by rudayo I guess I am confused. It's great the issue was addressed, somewhat. But how does it answer the other raging question in the thread?

What is the explanation on the repeated claims when presenting watches labeld SWISS that they were Swiss Made (see vidoes in thread)? This was done many, many times, from all personnel from top down.

From the response, it is clear that they KNOW that when they label an item as SWISS that is not Swiss Made.

Yet they made the claims on air anyway....

Eyal didn't say that they were going to stop representing watches just labeled "SWISS" as Swiss Made......

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Add KMC1212 to Your Contacts #448 Today, 11:13 AM MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

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The real problem here, as I have been trying to drive home for a long time,it's the Swiss watch law that ALLOWS watch makers to make such Claims........I think the U.S. Customs office in Florida would be interested in this thread......or maybe not, the way government is being run these days......

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Quote: Originally Posted by Time Bandit Eyal, I have read your statement.

The Statement confirms the subject of what this thread is pertaining to, and for you to personally respond speaks volumes.

To recap, "Swiss ≠Swiss Made".

(Question)Will you and your team continue, in the future, to verbally market your watches as "Swiss Made" if the item(s) have been marked with the word "Swiss" on the dial?

Why aren't those watches labeled "Swiss Parts Movement" in the first place?!?!?! crazyjay616 View Public Profile Find all posts by crazyjay616 Add crazyjay616 to Your Contacts #450 Today, 11:15 AM

samuelrz Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by MREXE The real problem here, as I have been trying to drive home for a long time,it's the Swiss watch law that ALLOWS watch makers to make such Claims........I think the U.S. Customs office in Florida would be interested in this thread......or maybe not, the way government is being run these days......

Yes, it is an industry issue. __________________ SAM -

BabyDoc Senior Member Senior Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by kless13 I agree with you Bill. We'll just have to see if they continue to call Swiss and Swiss Made the same. I don't think they will from this point on.

I really doubt that anything will change. When you read Eyal's statement, do you read anything that sounds the least bit apologetic? I don't.

In so many words, he states that all the watch companies are engaged in the same misrepresentations and "that's marketing". With that kind of rationalization for what they are doing to increase their profits, do you really expect them to change?

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Quote: Originally Posted by vbobdriveguy Personally, I couldn't care less if a watch (or it's movement) are made in Switzerland, China, Japan, or New Jersey (Ok. Maybe not New Jersey LOL). As long as it works and keeps good time, that's good enough for me.

That being so stated, it would be nice if the sellers were more up front and accurate in describing the origins for those who it does matter to. It's just not right to use these terms loosely in order to boost sales. I'm not saying that anyone is lying. I know that this is common practice in sales. I just think that it would be nice if they were more truthfull with their information.

Could not have said it any better myself...except for that New Jersey thing. Love all my watches...their birth and raising from all parts of the world! Hosts/Sellers, please focus on the quality of the timepiece...not the marketing!

Owlwatch

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Quote: Originally Posted by samuelrz Yes, it is an industry issue.

And maybe an ethics issue as well! Except maybe US marketing & ethics...oxymoron!

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote: Originally Posted by samuelrz

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Yes, it is an industry issue.

Not really. It's a U.S. Customs country of origin labeling issue. __________________

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samuelrz Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by Flyback Not really. It's a U.S. Customs country of origin labeling issue.

Then it's not an Invicta issue, it's an Industry issue since they don't have control beyond a certain point. __________________

SAM -

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Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by X-James So what your saying is even if you have "Swiss Made" on a watch that it might not actually all be "Swiss Made"???

Also since you wanted to bring the auto industry into this as a reference you might consider doing the same thing they do. On the window of a new car they list what % of the car parts came from what countries and exactly where the car was assembled. Since you mentioned car parts and new cars maybe you could do as they and list where parts came from and where they were assembled ... just a thought.

Well the upside with "Swiss Made" is you can count on 4 things.

1: A true Swiss movement 2: Minimum 51% of the components of the watch are Swiss Origin 3: Assembled in Switzerland

4: Final QC inspection was carried out in Switzerland Kahuna Cowboy View Public Profile Send a private message to Kahuna Cowboy Send email to Kahuna Cowboy Find all posts by Kahuna Cowboy Add Kahuna Cowboy to Your Contacts #457 Today, 11:38 AM Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

This thread will remain open...

Thanks George, I'm hoping it will remain open to allow followup Q&A Time Bandit View Public Profile Send a private message to Time Bandit Send email to Time Bandit Find all posts by Time Bandit Add Time Bandit to Your Contacts #458 Today, 11:40 AM

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by samuelrz Then it's not an Invicta issue, it's an Industry issue since they don't have control beyond a certain point.

They have control over following or not following the country of origin labeling regulations.

U.S. Customs Regulations, 19 CFR Part 177 Chapter 91, Additional U.S. Note 4, Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States, sets forth special marking requirements for watches and clocks: (a) Watch movements shall be marked on one or more of the bridges or top plates to show: (i) the name of the country of manufacture, (ii) the name of the manufacturer or purchaser, and (iii) in words, the number of jewels, if any, serving a mechanical purpose as frictional bearings. (c) Watch cases shall be marked on the inside or outside of the back to show: (i) the name of the country of manufacture, and (ii) the name of the manufacturer or purchaser.

The above movements and cases must be conspicuously and indelibly marked by cutting, die-sinking, engraving, stamping (including by means of indelible ink), or mold-marking. Movements with opto-electronic display only and cases designed for use therewith, whether entered as separate articles or as components of assembled watches or clocks, are excepted from these special marking requirements.

Watches and clocks are also subject to the normal country of origin marking requirements of 19 U.S.C. 1304, and under these requirements, the movement™s country of origin should appear conspicuously and legibly on the dial face or on the outside of the back. In addition, watchbands should be marked with the country of manufacture of the band, unless the watchband is attached in the country where the watch was produced. __________________

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GeorgeTheWatchGuy WatchGeeks Moderator True WatchGeek

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Ok everyone... We have received a reply from Eyal... So lets keep this theme on his reply... All this other stuff has been addressed here in this thread many, many times...

Thank you.. __________________

"There are Two Types of Pain in this World: The Temporary Pain of Discipline, or the Permanent Pain of Regret"... GTWG GeorgeTheWatchGuy View Public Profile Send a private message to GeorgeTheWatchGuy Find all posts by GeorgeTheWatchGuy Add GeorgeTheWatchGuy to Your Contacts #460 Today, 11:46 AM

kless13 Member Member Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by BabyDoc I really doubt that anything will change. When you read Eyal's statement, do you read anything that sounds the least bit apologetic? I don't.

In so many words, he states that all the watch companies are engaged in the same misrepresentations and "that's marketing". With that kind of rationalization for what they are doing to increase their profits, do you really expect them to change?

I'm still finding it hard to believe that in the future, Eyal would say that Swiss and Swiss Made are equal, when he just told us in his post that Swiss labeled watches are very inexpensive.

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Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by samuelrz Then it's not an Invicta issue, it's an Industry issue since they don't have control beyond a certain point.

While true the industry does love to put the word "Swiss" on the dial and add some qualifier next to give the impression the watch is more than what it really is, this however was flat out misrepresentation and it went on for years.

This is now the 2nd time I have witnessed a Shop NBC brand get caught in misrepresenting their watches as meeting the benchmarks of Swiss Made when they never were.

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LTCARMY Senior Member Senior Geek

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A mens clothing company up this way had a advertising slogan -- "An educated consumer is our best customer" Just want to know the facts about what I am purchasing. Then its up to me to make a decision.

For me anyway the issue is now clear (I think, unless I missed something else in this thread, which I probably did). "Swiss Made" is Swiss made and "Swiss" is not Swiss made. I like my few watches that are labeled "Swiss" and would consider buying others in the future.

Just as long as I know what I'm I am buying, and the vendors are up front about it.

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Quote: Originally Posted by kless13 I'm still finding it hard to believe that in the future, Eyal would say that Swiss and Swiss Made are equal, when he just told us in his post that Swiss labeled watches are very inexpensive.

I think he might hold off saying that for a while then start right back again. Remember we at WG's are a small #

in Invicta's customer base. __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away watchluv View Public Profile Send a private message to watchluv Find all posts by watchluv Add watchluv to Your Contacts #464 Today, 11:54 AM

Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by watchluv I think he might hold off saying that for a while then start right back again. Remember we at WG's are a small # in Invicta's customer base.

Nope. Don't underestimate the geeks. If we were so insignificant we would have not gotten a lengthy reply from the CEO himself, and Invicta would not sponsor the Watchgeeks and help foot the bills here.

Geeks are the ones who have 10, 20, 50, 100+ Invicta's. Geeks are strong on repeat business and Invicta knows that.

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Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member Super Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by emathieu True, a lot of us purchase more watches in 2 months than non-geeks do in two years.

Exactly. I mean what does the normal person buy? Maybe one new watch a year, maybe? Plus they probably try to stay under $150'ish.

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Chief68 WatchGeeks Moderator True WatchGeek

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Please stay ON TOPIC , Thanks __________________

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bigwatchguy66 Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Were Jim and Michael basing their knowledge strictly on what Invicta told them? If so, unfortunate.

Eyal said this-'the new revelation': "Then we get into the way we use the word SWISS•. The the word Swisswas used on watches as a description for a watch using a movement with Swiss part Origins. This includes movements that are bought from SWISS COMPANIES, with SWISS ENGENEERING, that are tested in Switzerland, but has components that are sent off to the Far East for cost purposes to be assembled."

Jim said this: "When you buy an Invicta that says "Swiss" or "Swiss Made" you get precisely that, so don't feel like you are being misled. If you have any question in the future, ask me... I'll always shoot it straight" Also Jim said this: "If it does not say Swiss Made or Swiss at the 6 position... then it is not Swiss made. Simple as that. If it says anything about Swiss Movement, it has a Swiss movement. If it says Swiss parts Movement, then it uses a Swiss ebauche (Swiss parts) and is built outside of Switzerland." bigwatchguy66 View Public Profile Send a private message to bigwatchguy66 Find all posts by bigwatchguy66 Add bigwatchguy66 to Your Contacts #468 Today, 12:11 PM erictrumpet Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,898

I am glad Eyal posted a response. It confirms what I and many others have known for some time, educates others who didn't know about it until now, and strengthens my resolve to buy only Invictas with Swiss Made on the dial.

Unfortunately it also leaves several unanswered questions centering around ethics and responsibility, and definitely encourages me to make my next few purchases from other brands on my Want List besides Invicta.

But I'll be back. Invicta watches are too cool to ignore.

By the way, I am wearing my midsize SAS today and loving it. As I have stated many times in my nearly 2,000 posts here, Invicta is great if you educate yourself and keep in mind what you are buying. I do not have any non-Swiss Made Invictas because I knew all along that "Swiss" or any other dial marking does not mean Swiss at all, and is only a cheesy attempt to imply Swiss origin.

Does Swissness (to use Michael's great new word) matter that much? Not really. I highly respect watches like Seiko, Android, Deep Blue to name a few. These brands do not allow the customer to believe they are Swiss when they are not. It's the misleading marketing that turns me off to non-Swiss Made Invictas. If Asian Invictas simply said nothing on the dial, I would consider buying them.

The disturbing trend I see now is that more and more non-Swiss Made Invictas are being sold on ShopNBC, even Reserve pieces like the new SAS models. Since I am not interested in non-Swiss Made Invictas, I fear this trend will limit my choices in the future.

I believe nothing will change after this thread, except that a few more collectors know a little more about Invicta's product offerings. What will change is that ShopNBC hosts will stop blatantly saying Swiss = Swiss Made. But that is all. We will continue to see more and more non-Swiss Made Invictas on Shop because the

realities of the industry will not change because a few collectors on a web forum somewhere feel a little slighted by misleading marketing tactics.

Eric. __________________

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CharlieB Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote: Originally Posted by bluloo Perhaps they were either misinformed or poorly educated, versus intentionally lying...

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: On the Puget Sound, WA Posts: 11,991 Real Name: Charlie

I didn't say they were lying, I said they were not telling the truth. To say something that is not true is to not tell the truth.

To intentionally not tell the truth is to lie. I don't know that it was intentional, so I never used the word lie.

However, the excuse of being mis-informed can not be used as an excuse. Eyal heads the company, and when he goes on Shop and says without doubt or equivocation that Swiss is the same as Swiss Made when on an Invicta dial, it is his responsibility to know for an absolute fact that that is true, that this information is 100% correct.

The same holds for a person with the title of Technical Brand Manager, that title implies he has the technical knowledge to be correct when he states Swiss equals Swiss Made. __________________

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Chief68 WatchGeeks Moderator True WatchGeek

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Staten Island New York Posts: 11,602 Real Name: Nick

I think Invicta cares very much about how we feel and what our concerns are.

We might be a small percentage of the customer base but we buy many watches because we are collectors so one of us can account for 100 watches where as a regular every day person buys one watch. No they care about our opinion.

In as far as Eyal coming on here and posting I give him credit because he told the truth and if you do not like what he said well that is your choice however we now know exactly what Invicta means when they write SWISS or SWISS MADE on the watches. Each of us from this point on will draw their own conclusions and that is your right ,I for one still love this company and the product they put out . I always go back to what Eyal said a long time ago, he can make a watch and charge as much money as all these big companies do but he prides himself in making a good watch made just as well as those other companies with one difference - THE PRICE and that still holds true no matter what is written on the dial and that is what I care about. __________________

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reliefcp Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Join Date: May 2009 Location: Everett Wa. Posts: 2,579 Real Name: C.J.

All I can add is while I have several Invictas now and I will continue to wear them however I will not be buying anymore anytime soon.This is not only an Invicta credibility issue but a Shop NBC issue also.The old stereotype of false advertising on a shopping channel has come into question.I really feel bad for Jim and MD because they were duped just like the rest of us were.I had high hopes for Invicta and have defended them in the past but now I just dont know what to ever believe from their company. __________________

reliefcp View Public Profile Send a private message to reliefcp Find all posts by reliefcp Add reliefcp to Your Contacts #472 Today, 12:22 PM My Watch Senior Member Veteran Geek

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It,s time to stop all of this and let us know if the watch is turly swiss made or not. We will still buy them but enough with the games My Watch View Public Profile Send a private message to My Watch Send email to My Watch Find all posts by My Watch Add My Watch to Your Contacts #473 Today, 12:25 PM

DSmoke Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Tacoma Wa Posts: 1,592 Real Name: Dennis

Quote: Originally Posted by samuelrz OMG, are you still debating this? If it's not AOSC then at best it's 51% Swiss. Now please LET THIS THREAD DIE! Someone please Godwin this thread so it gets closed.

You know when I see a thread still open that Im tired of and people still posting AND especially when they are waiting for a response, I JUST DONT COME BACK!! LMAO why not just quit coming to this thread and the IT IS OVER for you! LOL! __________________ Big Denny In T-Town

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IB Ticken Senior Member Senior Geek

As I've stated before, if I want a watch with an Asian movement, or assembled in the Orient, I'll stick to Android, Stuhrling, Casio, and Seiko, to name a few. Wing and Larry appear to be honorable men, and are passonate about their product. I own several of their watches.

I think I'm going to steer away from Invicta, for awhile, at least until they change their practices.

I own too many of their overpriced Chinese watches, marked "Swiss" already.

If Invicta sales are not damaged by what has come to light in this thread, I wouldn't be surprised if everthing stays the same. The

Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Southeast Florida Posts: 133 Real Name: Marvin

bottom line are sales figures.

"GOOD" MARKETING PRACTICES and TRUTH IN ADVERTISING ARE NOT THE SAME!!!

FOOL ME ONCE.......etc. etc. etc. __________________ "IT'S GOOD TO BE THE KING"---Mel Brooks, "History of the World, part 1" I B Ticken View Public Profile Send a private message to I B Ticken Find all posts by I B Ticken Add I B Ticken to Your Contacts #475 Today, 12:34 PM

Mike_NavyNuke Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Norfolk VA Posts: 1,028 Real Name: Mike

Quote: Originally Posted by BabyDoc I really doubt that anything will change. When you read Eyal's statement, do you read anything that sounds the least bit apologetic? I don't.

In so many words, he states that all the watch companies are engaged in the same misrepresentations and "that's marketing". With that kind of rationalization for what they are doing to increase their profits, do you really expect them to change?

I am not a marketing major, but I have taken quite a few marketing and business classes during college; and I can agree with Eyal 100%. Most companies do highlight the GOOD in their product. Almost no one mentions the bad.

This is not very deceitful, it is MARKETING! That is why most people do research to buy things, because if every one believed advertisements then they would always be disappointed in everything they buy. This is true for almost all products marketed today. The deceit, IMO, comes from the fact that the 'misunderstanding' of this was perpetuated on shopnbc and other sources this whole time. Yes, that is not OUR fault and it is quite unnerving. In Michael's defense, just because someone works for a company does not make them an expert in all areas, so give Michael a break. I am sure he did not lie, but had an unintentional misunderstanding. I work in

Nuclear Power and you would be surprised at the stuff that most people just take 'other peoples word for it' and that comes the new standard knowledge even when completely false. Stuff like this happens, and luckily we had Eyal Step in and set it straight.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes marketing can get a little unethical such as drug companies. However, in some cases such as prescription drug ads, they are required (by law?) to list good AND bad parts/side effects of their product. This is the exception, as most people do not. Just like my Acer Timeline Laptop battery that was supposed to last 8+ hours. It lasts maybe 3 to 4 hours MAX brand new; however I am not calling shenanigans on Acer here. __________________

emathieu Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA but my heart is still in NOLA Posts: 1,272 Real Name: Eric.

Quote: Originally Posted by Mike_NavyNuke Just like my Acer Timeline Laptop battery that was supposed to last 8+ hours. It lasts maybe 3 to 4 hours MAX brand new; however I am not calling shenanigans on Acer here.

Yeah, but notice that the Acer Timeline materials has a huge asterisk next to the 8+ hour claim that states actual time will vary due to configuration and/or type of laptop usage.

I don't see an asterisk next to "Swiss", and didn't hear a really quick disclaimer (think car dealership commercials) being played after people stated on air that "Swiss" on these pieces = "Swiss Made".

Big difference between what has happened with these watches and your Acer example. __________________ Eric. emathieu View Public Profile Send a private message to emathieu Find all posts by emathieu Add emathieu to Your Contacts #477 Today, 12:42 PM MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Chief68, ya said it BEST.........I am so glad we are now "upfront" with what I've known for along time........

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KMC1212 Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: North Lauderdale, Florida Posts: 687 Real Name: Ken

Wouldn't it be simpler if Invicta put "Swiss Made" on the watches that "are" Swiss made and didn't put anything on the dials that aren't Swiss made? They could just mark on the case back "Swiss parts movement" and leave the dial alone......

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samuelrz Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: May 2009 Location: N. California Posts: 1,332 Real Name: Sam

Quote: Originally Posted by erictrumpet I believe nothing will change after this thread, except that a few more collectors know a little more about Invicta's product offerings. What will change is that ShopNBC hosts will stop blatantly saying Swiss = Swiss Made. But that is all. We will continue to see more and more non-Swiss Made Invictas on Shop because the realities of the industry will not change because a few collectors on a web forum somewhere feel a little slighted by misleading marketing tactics.

Eric.

I agree. This isn't a new issue. If I owned Invicta and was making money hand over fist I would do nothing different. I wouldn't change my QC, I wouldn't make ANY change until it actually affected sales. The "Spring Forward Event" proved people will continue to buy regardless as long as they feel they are getting a good value for the money.

The oldest thread that I've found where someone questions Invicta's QC is almost 10 years old. You could change the model number and insert it into this forum and you wouldn't be able to tell.

We got a response from the CEO of a company which is more than I expect from any industry. This is just my opinion and I know, I know, Swiss is not equal to Swiss Made. My point is nothing will change except the marketing lingo.

I will keep buying cool looking watches from Invicta regardless. __________________ SAM -

samuelrz View Public Profile Send a private message to samuelrz Send email to samuelrz Find all posts by samuelrz Add samuelrz to Your Contacts #480 Today, 12:58 PM marlboro Member Member Geek

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Im going to say this, and this will be the last time i comment on this issue, but just want to put in a couple more cents.

I could care less if the watch movement is made in Asia, China, Mexico, Guatamala, Indonesia, or Switzerland. If its a well made watch, with good quality and looks, and meets what i want as far as case design, fit and finish, etc, and keeps good time, i could care less where it was made.

BUT, I dont want to be mislead. If its chinese, say its chinese. No offense, Eyal made a nice post, and what he said was true, he said its a grey area, that swiss on the dial does not mean swiss made, and that is marketing. Do me a favor, dont market me a watch, tell me what it is and I will buy it , based on facts, not marketing and fiction. Guess Im a dummy, but if you tell me Swiss means the same as Swiss made by the swiss federation guidelines, I beleive it. But in the end , you were lying, plain and simple. Ive been wanting to use this for a long time

so do me a favor DONT TELL ME SWISS IS SWISSMADE, WHEN ITS REALLY CHINESE. THANKS. marlboro View Public Profile Send a private message to marlboro Find all posts by marlboro Add marlboro to Your Contacts #481 Today, 12:59 PM Jamesmbb Senior Member Senior Geek

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175

I do not trust invicta. I thought they were honest and also thought Jim would have opened some of his Invictas'.

Please Jim Give us a response!!!

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Hotspur Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Here now Posts: 1,088 Real Name: William (Bill)

If I had ever actually bought into the hard line pro Invicta mindset, I would certainly feel a little "used". The phrase "Seduced and abandoned" comes to mind. As it is though, this is about what I expected and have made my Invicta purchases accordingly. As always, "Caveat emptor". Neither wishing nor bashing will make it any different. Smell blood in the water? __________________ They all wound - the last one kills (inscribed below a 15th century clock) Hotspur View Public Profile Send a private message to Hotspur Find all posts by Hotspur Add Hotspur to Your Contacts #483 Today, 01:12 PM

krayziehustler Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: New York,NY Posts: 440 Real Name: Yovanny

how is this any worse than Lior shouting (and even in print ads) saying he uses 100% Swiss Movement talking about CL888

also, only a handfull of companies make a 100% swiss watch, even Rolex's are not 100%, even its its just the gear or the gasket, or the ruby or even the screw, they outsource some things __________________ I'd rather be a lion for a day than a lamb that lives forever - Canibus krayziehustler View Public Profile Send a private message to krayziehustler Find all posts by krayziehustler Add krayziehustler to Your Contacts #484 Today, 01:13 PM Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by samuelrz My point is nothing will change except the marketing lingo.

You don't think that "marketing lingo" being changed is a very big deal?

I think that it is a big deal if it is changed because of this thread.

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 711

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watchdude1 WatchGeeks Moderator Super Geek

Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: The Woodlands, TX Posts: 2,426 Real Name: Matt

What I think is apparent in this thread is that WG's are reasonable people who appreciate an answer when an issue arises. We saw it with the Renato limited edition thread and Daniel's response and we see it here. It is impressive that once the answer is given, that at least WG's show some appreciation, respect, and even a degree of understanding in getting a response. It does not minimize the situation, but Eyal's response certainly goes a long way in spreading some good will to a fan base who I truly believe "wants" to purchase Invicta time pieces.

In the final analysis, consumers want answers to their questions and want the knowledge to make the best buying decision for them. Just a thought... __________________ "God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy."

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DSmoke Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Tacoma Wa Posts: 1,592 Real Name: Dennis

Im glad we got an explanation from Eyal. I dont care where the Movmnt is made from, AS LONG AS I KNOW BEFORE I BUY! I just dont wanna be lied to or mislead. Especially since I woulda bought the watch anyway, as long as its well built. Yeah some watches I buy I want them to be Swiss Made, because of price etc... but some watches I really like and it doesnt matter to me as much, I JUST WANNA KNOW WHAT IM BUYING AHEAD OF TIME! __________________ Big Denny In T-Town

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Quote: Originally Posted by crazyjay616 Why aren't those watches labeled "Swiss Parts Movement" in the first place?!?!?!

Because it's better marketing to have "Swiss" on the dial that will sell more watches. __________________

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Quote: Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy Nope. Don't underestimate the geeks. If we were so insignificant we would have not gotten a lengthy reply from the CEO himself, and Invicta would not sponsor the Watchgeeks and help foot the bills here.

Geeks are the ones who have 10, 20, 50, 100+ Invicta's. Geeks are strong on repeat business and Invicta knows that.

Geeks are only 5,000 + or - strong here and not all buy Invicta's. SNBC has millions of customers. That is where Invicta gets most of their money from the SNBC customers. Also Invicta has many other vendor's selling their products that have not even heard of WG's another customer base. Eyal spoke because maybe Jim and Mike possibly ask him to address this on their Forum. __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away watchluv View Public Profile Send a private message to watchluv Find all posts by watchluv Add watchluv to Your Contacts #489 Today, 01:37 PM

DiverFan Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Rockland Cty, New York Posts: 1,592 Real Name: Gerald(Jerry)

I have and will continue to have great respect for Eyal. It is great that he took the time to try to answer some of the concerns posted here. However, I feel that he did not address the core concern of this thread. Invicta saying, that Swiss means the same as Swiss Made when used on Invicta watches, on National Television and in writing on this Forum. Possibly he missed this when reading the thread.

A simple, "sorry we confused people, while trying to explain the differences between the terms we use on our watches". That, "the terms themselves are confusing and that there was no intent at deception". "We will make sure this doesn't happen again".

Something like this should satisfy most geeks.

Eyal, keep making those great watches. Most geeks don't really care where they are made. We will buy them.

Just explain those "grey area terms" with precision so that we can understand their true meaning as it relates to their use on Invicta watches! __________________ Love is a Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier named Bailey!

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Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 76 Real Name: Brett

I think what a lot of members/Invicta fans are looking for is a little accountability. After reading post 401, all I saw was an explanantion of what the different "swiss" terms meant and some token car analogy. Nothing to the fact that they went on-air and said Swiss is the same as Swiss Made. Maybe there are some legal ramifications if anything more than that is said. And I do appreciate Eyal coming on here and posting his statement.

To be honest, I am not upset about that. I knew along time ago that swiss wasn't the same as swiss made (regarding Invicta's watches). Call it common sense, but when there is plenty of room on the dial to put swiss made and it isn't on there...it should raise a red flag.

My issue is in the pricing of some of these "Swiss" timepieces marketed as Swiss Made. To the people that have no issue with this whole situation, consider the following. Russian Divers labeled Swiss (and marketed as Swiss Made) have sold between $200-$300. Some for more, and some for less (there is a RD for $145 this week) but that is the average price range. Then a Russian Diver that is a Swiss Parts Movt is sold for around $100. When in essence there should not be that big of a price difference. I guess the best thing to do is speak with your wallet. I will still buy Invicta's, but will continue to stick with the Swiss Made products. bamind View Public Profile Send a private message to bamind Find all posts by bamind Add bamind to Your Contacts #491 Today, 01:46 PM

Jamesmbb Senior Member Senior Geek

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Called snbc and they are not aware of any problems and asked that I give item numbers. LET THE BUYER BEWare on SNBC! Jamesmbb View Public Profile Send a private message to Jamesmbb Find all posts by Jamesmbb Add Jamesmbb to Your Contacts #492 Today, 01:58 PM

Mike_NavyNuke Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Norfolk VA Posts: 1,028 Real Name: Mike

Quote: Originally Posted by emathieu Yeah, but notice that the Acer Timeline materials has a huge asterisk next to the 8+ hour claim that states actual time will vary due to configuration and/or type of laptop usage.

I don't see an asterisk next to "Swiss", and didn't hear a really quick disclaimer (think car dealership commercials) being played after people stated on air that "Swiss" on these pieces = "Swiss Made".

Big difference between what has happened with these watches and your Acer example.

That is a good point too. At least from NOW ON we have the knowledge to make any future purchase decisions. I for one, always beleived that the 'swiss' invictas were not swiss made. I only own one 'Swiss' invicta that I paid 60 bucks for. __________________

Mike_NavyNuke View Public Profile Send a private message to Mike_NavyNuke Find all posts by Mike_NavyNuke Add Mike_NavyNuke to Your Contacts #493 Today, 02:00 PM Nasty Senior Member Super Geek

Christ, I've read all of this thread and I am more confluckted than ever.

WTF does Swiss mean if it's not even a Swiss movt? Swiss parts made in China?

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timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

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Reading Eyal's post I found nothing indicating that Invicta believes they did anything wrong. Eyal's post offered no apologies or admits any wrong doing for misrepresenting their watches as "Swiss Made", when they weren't. I read nothing stating Invicta will stop the practice of placing "Swiss" on the dial for watches with Swiss parts and assembled in the Far East. So it appears nothing has changed.

To repeat, as per U.S. Customs a watch that has "Swiss" on the dial or case back MUST have at least a "Swiss Made" movement, and not one with Swiss parts assembled in the Far east, even if it sounds better for marketing reasons. __________________

timeman View Public Profile Send a private message to timeman Find all posts by timeman Add timeman to Your Contacts #495 Today, 02:04 PM crazyjay616 Member Member Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by Nasty Christ, I've read all of this thread and I am more confluckted than ever.

WTF does Swiss mean if it's not even a Swiss movt? Swiss parts made in China?

"Swiss" mean "Swiss Parts Movement assembled in China" apparently. crazyjay616 View Public Profile Find all posts by crazyjay616 Add crazyjay616 to Your Contacts #496 Today, 02:05 PM

kless13 Member Member Geek

Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Southern CA Posts: 57 Real Name: Ken

Quote: Originally Posted by bamind I think what a lot of members/Invicta fans are looking for is a little accountability. After reading post 401, all I saw was an explanantion of what the different "swiss" terms meant and some token car analogy. Nothing to the fact that they went on-air and said Swiss is the same as Swiss Made. Maybe there are some legal ramifications if anything more than that is said. And I do appreciate Eyal coming on here and posting his statement.

To be honest, I am not upset about that. I knew along time ago that swiss wasn't the same as swiss made (regarding Invicta's watches). Call it common sense, but when there is plenty of room on the dial to put swiss made and it isn't on there...it should raise a red flag.

My issue is in the pricing of some of these "Swiss" timepieces marketed as Swiss Made. To the people that have no issue with this whole situation, consider the following. Russian Divers labeled Swiss (and marketed as Swiss Made) have sold between $200-$300. Some for more, and some for less (there is a RD for $145 this week) but that is the average price range. Then a Russian Diver that is a Swiss Parts Movt is sold for around $100. When in essence there should not be that big of a price difference. I guess the best thing to do is speak with your wallet. I will still buy Invicta's, but will continue to stick with the Swiss Made products.

Yes, I agree, Eyal never addressed the issue of why he has been saying that "Swiss" labeled watches are the same as "Swiss Made" labeled watches. That is the main point and he circumvented it. kless13 View Public Profile Send a private message to kless13 Find all posts by kless13 Add kless13 to Your Contacts #497 Today, 02:06 PM Nasty Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by crazyjay616 "Swiss" mean "Swiss Parts Movement assembled in China" apparently.

Wow... That really is the exact opposite of what was said on air.

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Quote: Originally Posted by Nasty Christ, I've read all of this thread and I am more confluckted than ever.

WTF does Swiss mean if it's not even a Swiss movt? Swiss parts made in China?

SWISS means: If we told you what it REALLY is, we don't think you'll buy it. __________________

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Jamesmbb Senior Member Senior Geek

I feel as if I was taken buy SNBC, they should have explained the differnce or did they.

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Find all posts by Jamesmbb Add Jamesmbb to Your Contacts #500 Today, 02:11 PM abduksion Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,531 Real Name: Special K ;)

Maybe we should put this to rest? Just saying with over 500 posts, I think its done. __________________

Rog1 Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Pompano Beach , Fl. Posts: 1,851 Real Name: Roger

I think Eyal is providing us with cool looking watches at affordable prices regardless of where they are mostly manufactured. I like Invicta and I will continue to purchase them. Thank you Eyal for your honest and lucid post on this issue.

R __________________

I'm earning extra watch money, one wipe at a time!!!!

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While I enjoy my Invictas and respect the leadership at Invicta... as some folks might say, let™s not get it all twisted up in here•. There was not any official company response to the madness until the 400 thread post mark and after a response had been solicited by most likely a company insider. And while I™m appreciative for the response of sorts¦any fairly intelligent company leader (and sponsor of a product-oriented forum) would attempt to do some damage control. Its called engaged sustainability of the overall marketing plan. I will continue to buy Invicta if I see something I like...as always with any timpiece.

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BabyDoc Senior Member Senior Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by Mike_NavyNuke I am not a marketing major, but I have taken quite a few marketing and business classes during college; and I can agree with Eyal 100%. Most companies do highlight the GOOD in their product. Almost no one mentions the bad.

This is not very deceitful, it is MARKETING! That is why most people do research to buy things, because if every one believed advertisements then they would always be disappointed in everything they buy. This is true for almost all products marketed today. The deceit, IMO, comes from the fact that the 'misunderstanding' of this was perpetuated on shopnbc and other sources this whole time. Yes, that is not OUR fault and it is quite un-nerving. In Michael's defense, just because someone works for a company does not make them an expert in all areas, so give Michael a break. I am sure he did not lie, but had an unintentional misunderstanding. I work in Nuclear Power and you would be surprised at the stuff that most people just take 'other peoples word for it' and that comes the new standard knowledge even when completely false. Stuff like this happens, and luckily we had Eyal Step in and set it straight.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes marketing can get a little unethical such as drug companies. However, in some cases such as prescription drug ads, they are required (by law?) to list good AND bad parts/side effects of their product. This is the exception, as most people do not. Just like my Acer Timeline Laptop battery that was supposed to last 8+ hours. It lasts maybe 3 to 4 hours MAX brand new; however I am not calling shenanigans on Acer here.

What you are saying about marketing may be true, that businesses often emphasize the positive and mininimize the negative, but I don't think that's the case here. When Invicta knowingly attempts to enhance the perceived value of a product by telling people their watch is Swiss, when it is not, they are misinforming people, plain and simple. They aren't just promoting a good point and avoiding telling people about a bad point. Instead, they are saying this watch has a good point that it doesn't possess. In my book, that's deceit.

If it were merely honest marketing, they wouldn't mention anything about where the non swiss watch was made, and point out, instead, all of the other virtues of the watch. That's what Sturhling does. They mention it has a swiss movement when it does. However, when it has a chinese made movement, they rarely mention where it was made and instead, talk about its other qualities.

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heavyjumbo Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by BabyDoc I really doubt that anything will change. When you read Eyal's statement, do you read anything that sounds the least bit apologetic? I don't.

In so many words, he states that all the watch companies are engaged in the same misrepresentations and "that's marketing". With that kind of rationalization for what they are doing to increase their profits, do you really expect them to change?

Eyal simply explained the differences between Swiss Made and Swiss and further added that watch companies, such as Invicta, use the word Swiss as a marketing tool because the Asian movements are made or modeled after Swiss watch engineering. Eyal did not comment on or address the statements made by Invicta employes/representatives on ShopNBC live television which equate a "Swiss" marked watch as Swiss Made; therefore, no apology was made. __________________ Paul G. Boca Raton, FL heavyjumbo View Public Profile Send a private message to heavyjumbo Find all posts by heavyjumbo Add heavyjumbo to Your Contacts #505 Today, 02:25 PM crazyjay616 Member Member

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Quote: Originally Posted by Nasty Wow... That really is the exact opposite of what was said on air.

And it was repeated so many times for so long, that I highly doubt that Eyal did not know what was going on.

In fact he never corrected the misrepresentation and let the hosts continue say "Swiss" = "Swiss Made" crazyjay616 View Public Profile Find all posts by crazyjay616 Add crazyjay616 to Your Contacts #506 Today, 02:29 PM

VegasLee Senior Member Senior Geek

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It is a watch. You like it, buy it, you don't, don't!

Is this anything like most AMERICAN MADE cars are mostly parts from other counties and many are not even assembled in the U.S? My nice American made Ford van has a nice sticker hidden on it stating it was built in Canada. Why was that not printed on the window sticker?

I don't think anyone is trying to deceive or lie. It is just like most anything else in this country. Non Disclosure is not lying. If that was the case pretty much everyone in this country would be lairs. __________________ God put fools on this earth as a cheap form of entertainment to the rest of us!

VegasLee

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nycruza Senior Member Super Geek

Swiss Court Interpretation of "SWISS MADE" 50% portion is not the sole criterion for determining the Swiss origin of a product. The origin of the essential components and the manufacturing process through which a product obtains its characteristic features, and “ in borderline or doubtful cases “ the

origin of the intellectual property embodied in the

product and the special circumstances in the respective industry must also be taken into due consideration.• __________________

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heavyjumbo Senior Member Super Geek

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Eyal's reply confirms that Reserve timepieces marked 'Swiss' are not Swiss Made and do not case a Swiss movement. So Reserve pieces no longer guarantee that the watch is Swiss Made. That is pretty sad in my book as I am an Invicta supporter and love their watches. __________________ Paul G. Boca Raton, FL heavyjumbo View Public Profile Send a private message to heavyjumbo Find all posts by heavyjumbo Add heavyjumbo to Your Contacts #509 Today, 02:40 PM

Avery Member Member Geek

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Well now that that has been explained in detail,Why do I get the vibe that many people feel the Asian versions are of inferior quality?

Are there quantifiable differences in the same movement manufactured in two different countries?

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steverob Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by tampa8 To Everyone ----First, a big Thank-you to Eyal for addressing this issue here with us.

Second, I beg everyone to carefully read the reply and let it sink in. If you have read my posts I am in no way an appologist. But I can now see another side to this whole story, and to me Eyal was very honest with us, more than many CEO's would be.

It can be argued, by putting just the word "Swiss" on the watches instead of "Swiss Made", Invicta was actually being honest in that the watch is being produced differently. Further, I am reading it is the postion of Invicta that they feel justified in calling it the same as "Swiss Made" in that the movements are Swiss movements, from Swiss companies, but now being assembled in China. You may agree with or disagree with their conclusion, but I feel better hearing the explanation, together with not continuing to use "Swiss Made" on these watches. Maybe a little better explanation should have come our way sooner of what Mike meant, but we now have it and I for one am glad it came, and feel better about the whole thing.

What you say makes sense PROVIDED that people stop making statements on air, on websites, or wherever else that claim that "Swiss" means the same thing as "Swiss Made." steverob

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steverob Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by Avery Well now that that has been explained in detail,Why do I get the vibe that many people feel the Asian versions are of inferior quality?

Are there quantifiable differences in the same movement manufactured in two different countries?

I don't know if I feel that the Asian versions are necessarily inferior. However, since the primary reason for switching production to Asia tends to be cost reduction, one must evaluate how much an Asian produced watch is worth relative to one produced in higher-cost Switzerland. For sure, I have no problem at all spending $700 for a Chinese tourbillon because there's no way I could afford a Swiss one of similar quality. So, IF the quality is as good or bettter AND the cost savings are passed on, AND it is made perfectly clear what one is buying, then I might be OK with it. steverob View Public Profile Send a private message to steverob Send email to steverob Find all posts by steverob Add steverob to Your Contacts #512 Today, 02:49 PM

samuelrz Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by abduksion Maybe we should put this to rest? Just saying with over 500 posts, I think its done.

__________________ SAM -

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Thank you for the reply Eyal.

I feel so much better. I no longer feel mislead. Knowing you made Mr. Davis say Swiss is the same as Swiss Made is a relief. The rest of the ShopNBC staff can/should not be held at all responsible. Their job is to SELL the product you supply.

You on the other hand will be held to a higher standard. (the buck stops with you) __________________

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GEEMAN05 Senior Member Senior Geek

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As I see it..........Most of the watches we purchase from Invicta are in the $75 to $2,000.00 range. The watches are well made and worth the price. For me I like to know what the movement is and where it was made. I do not not expect any of the Invicta's that I purchase (I own close to 100) to ever be auctioned at Christies so keeping that in mind, knowing what I spent, I don't care where it was assembled! I know I'm going to get hit with.....your missing the point!!! Perhaps I am! What I do ask...is any watch that sells for lets say $10,000.00 really worth the price because it is Swiss made????? That may also beg the same question, IS IT REALLY SWISS MADE!!?? I give up!!! PS.....Is Swiss cheese only made in Switzerland?? __________________ George Bethlehem Pa GEEMAN05 View Public Profile Send a private message to GEEMAN05

Find all posts by GEEMAN05 Add GEEMAN05 to Your Contacts #515 Today, 03:17 PM Quickfeet Iv Member Member Geek

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Thanks Eyal. You have to read it a few time, but it becomes clearer with every reading.

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Scout13 Senior Member Senior Geek

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Wow!!.. I watched the video. I would love to think it was just a mistake, but to have a reason that they could not fit it in the six o'clock area and that it means swiss made seems a tad pemeditated. Not sure what to believe on this one!

I could care less about Swiss Made. I think NFW makes one of the best watches around and they have the Asian movts. and I never had a problem with an Asian movt. NFW all the way down to Casio. I am just a little miffed to say the least about this entire fiasco. Mainly I am shocked that Swiss Made may not be 100% Swiss Made Movt's and to claim that Swiss is the Same as Swiss made, right on a video at shop, and by the way, it's not the first time I have heard that on a show from the hosts.

Shame...Shame...Shame!! If it was dishonesty, Shame, Shame, Shame if it was a mistake, the face of Invicta should know the diff between Swiss and Swiss Made and where it fits!....Sorry!!

I am thankful to Eayl for the education and the truth! __________________

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Quote: Originally Posted by timeman I read Invicta's above statementt. I don't care if the watch has Swiss parts, if a watch company puts "Swiss" on the dial it needs at least a "Swiss Made" movement period, that's the law according to the U.S. Custom regulations. So if you are going to use Chinese movements with Swiss parts take "Swiss" off the dial, and state the watch has a Swiss parts movement.

Agreed!

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Add TM Maker to Your Contacts #518 Today, 03:47 PM Nasty Senior Member Super Geek

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I just look at it like this... If it doesn't say SWISS MADE, it ain't. Period.

Everything else is semantics.

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bluloo Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by CharlieB I didn't say they were lying, I said they were not telling the truth. To say something that is not true is to not tell the truth.

To intentionally not tell the truth is to lie. I don't know that it was intentional, so I never used the word lie.

However, the excuse of being mis-informed can not be used as an excuse. Eyal heads the company, and when he goes on Shop and says without doubt or equivocation that Swiss is the same as Swiss Made when on an

Invicta dial, it is his responsibility to know for an absolute fact that that is true, that this information is 100% correct.

The same holds for a person with the title of Technical Brand Manager, that title implies he has the technical knowledge to be correct when he states Swiss equals Swiss Made.

I was merely asking a question, not acusing you (or anyone else) of anything.

On the original topic, at least some of us are partially to blame for "educating" ourselves at the company trough. Again, I'm a bit surprised that much of this is news. bluloo View Public Profile Send a private message to bluloo Find all posts by bluloo Add bluloo to Your Contacts #520 Today, 04:07 PM

kless13 Member Member Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by Quickfeet Iv Thanks Eyal. You have to read it a few time, but it becomes clearer with every reading.

Yes, it is crystal clear to me. Every time Eyal said that "Swiss" is the same as "Swiss Made" on SHOP NBC, most likely was a deceitful, boldface lie. kless13 View Public Profile Send a private message to kless13 Find all posts by kless13 Add kless13 to Your Contacts #521 Today, 04:13 PM

GeorgeTheWatchGuy WatchGeeks Moderator True WatchGeek

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Unless you have any further questions for Eyal, please do not post here...

Thank you... __________________

"There are Two Types of Pain in this World: The Temporary Pain of Discipline, or the Permanent Pain of Regret"... GTWG GeorgeTheWatchGuy View Public Profile Send a private message to GeorgeTheWatchGuy Find all posts by GeorgeTheWatchGuy Add GeorgeTheWatchGuy to Your Contacts #522 Today, 04:13 PM

bentley85 Senior Member Veteran Geek

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All I care about is that my watch has a creative unique design and bulit to a reliable standard. I would like it to be Swiss Made but if not there is no deal breaker. I care more about the quality of the customer service rather than if the movment was assembled in "Far East". Trust me I understand that many feel the exact oppsite so please don't jump down my throat on this, I'm just stating how I feel.

I am greatful for the response from Eyal and glad that there is better clairity on this matter, do I think it is crystal clear yet...No but better. I hope that the bigger picture can be addressed with Invicta and that is creating better Customer Service and improving their quality control. I feel that improvements in those two areas will retain and gain more customers. JMO! __________________ If it don't make dollaz...Then it don't make sense!

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bentley85 Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

Unless you have any further questions for Eyal, please do not post here...

Thank you...

Sorry I have been reading the thread and didn't see your post. __________________ If it don't make dollaz...Then it don't make sense!

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timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,724 Real Name: Jerry

Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

Unless you have any further questions for Eyal, please do not post here...

Thank you...

Eyal can you answer this question: When Invicta has Swiss on the dial is it marketing hype to give the uniformed the impression the watch is Swiss made or has a Swiss made movement; when in fact it has a Swiss parts movement assembled in China? __________________

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NIGHTHAWK007 Senior Member Super Geek

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Yikes! __________________ Quote by jskelton.."Folks! If you're not on the phone right now,you're not gonna get one! Do what you gotta do!!!!" ricard75 Senior Member Super Geek

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1,541 Real Name: Kevin

I want to thank Eyal for posting on the topic it was above and beyond what I expected.

I love my Invicta watches I will continue to buy more, I have never purchased a watch with Swiss on the dial, all of my Invicta's are Swiss Made and that's how I like it. I had a feeling this was the case the first time I saw Swiss on the dial, I thought Why? Now I think how they are labeled is WRONG if you are a trusting person you are getting taken and that is true with lots of industries. It's not right but to many people's surprise we are not the biggest victim of all this! The biggest victim is Jim He is a honest person he is on this forum constantly tirelessly answering questions, When Jim tells me something I know it is true and some people might not think like that any more. (not me I would bet anything he did not know and was going on the info provided by the MFG) As for Mike well you would think that a Technical Brand Manager would know what movement was in what watch, and as stated in another thread you must not question the scope of His knowledge on the Invicta products.

Well one thing is true this argument did indeed reveal the truth!

Sorry George I was typing this while you posted your request. ricard75 View Public Profile Send a private message to ricard75 Find all posts by ricard75 Add ricard75 to Your Contacts #527 Today, 04:39 PM

rhickey Senior Member Senior Geek

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It's like everything else that he constantly chants when he's on the air. Platinum waranty (forgets to mention

you pay for the priviledge or the extremely long wait), hand assembled (yeah right) and now Swiss made (China). Mike and Jim are now having to answer for this guy as he gives us a lame answer without a hint of an apology. BTW I have 2 of those Swiss watches with the Chinese movement. I just feel stupid even wearing them now! rhickey View Public Profile Send a private message to rhickey Find all posts by rhickey Add rhickey to Your Contacts #528 Today, 04:59 PM DIAMANTE Senior Member Super Geek

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When I started this post I did not expect it to go on this long and elicit a direct response from Eyal Lalo.

I want to express my thanks to everyone who supported this thread, remained civil, and sought the truth.

I also have to give credit to the owners of the forum for letting us speak our mind eventhough it was probably uncomfortable for them.

Here is my take, regarding Eyal Lalo's response: Like someone earlier in the thread he tried to make the analogy with automobiles being manufactured all over the world with parts from all over the world. As I stated previously that analogy is perfect for explaining the difficulty of assigning country or origin to products produced in today's globalized marketplace.

But it has no bearing the issue at hand. In the case under discussion we are talking about certain guidelines that must be met in order to label a watch Swiss or Swiss Made.

Invicta, Eyal Lalo, Jim Skelton, and Mike Davis claimed, and as far as I can tell, continue to claim that Invicta watches marked Swiss meet the guidelines to be labeled Swiss Made.

I don't think anyone at this point can deny that their statements are false.

I didn't see anything in Eyal's statement that contradicted this - and I didn't get the idea after reading it that they are going to stop making that claim.

What irritates me the most about all of this is the way those of us were treated when we raised this issue previously. Michael Davis, on more than one occassion, alluded to us as conspiracy theorists who saw black helicopters everywhere. He once wrote that we should make sure and wear our tin foil hats.

Most of us learned when we were young if you get caught in a lie its best to just fess up and tell the truth. If you try and lie your way out of it you just end up telling more lies, losing your credibility, and saying really dumb things.

For example: Quote: Originally Posted by meijin ....snip....I am not a salesman....snip Quote: Originally Posted by meijin ...snip...I am there and paid to be there as someone who can lend technical insight into a product that is being sold by someone else.....snip...

Quote: Originally Posted by meijin ..snip...At the end of the day, if I don't know something or I feel something is not correct (in regards to the information that I have been given), I am going to tell you this....snip....

The statements above appear to be made someone in an attempt to distance themselves from a situation in which they would probably be found liable for defrauding thousands of consumers of millions of dollars.

Some geeks appear to be of the mind that its no big deal - its just a watch afterall. I can assure you however, it is no joking matter.

So the original question is still there.

Do the Invicta Reserve models now marked simply Swiss have movements assembled in Asia?

I suspect they do. This means that the Reserve Models touted as Swiss Made are probably 100% made in Asia (China).

It is very shortsighted for Invicta to keep this up.

D __________________ Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c) DIAMANTE View Public Profile Send a private message to DIAMANTE Find all posts by DIAMANTE Add DIAMANTE to Your Contacts #529 Today, 05:09 PM

Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by Avery Well now that that has been explained in detail,Why do I get the vibe that many people feel the Asian versions are of inferior quality?

Are there quantifiable differences in the same movement manufactured in two different countries?

Actually China has come a long way and I have nothing against Chinese and Japanese movements whatsoever.

I have many of them and will continue to buy them in watches I desire. However, I knew when I buying them what I was paying for and I knew going in they had these orient produced movements.

My "Swiss" Invicta's labeled as such I was told over and over were Swiss Made timepieces meeting the Swiss Federation guidelines of Swiss Made, which include a Swiss movement as one of those benchmarks. I remember asking Jim why did the Russian Diver's move away from the Swiss Made on the dial and just start using Swiss, I figured they were no longer Swiss Made but at least still had a true Swiss movement in them at a minimum. I was reassured all Russian Divers were Swiss Made (pre-costco sales) and should have searched before hand because he has explained time and time again Swiss = Swiss Made when it comes to Invicta.

I am disgusted with this.

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rhickey Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: May 2009 Location: Altamonte Springs, FL Posts: 135 Real Name: Rob

It's also interesting to note that of the current vendors on SNBC, only Invicta touts Swiss made product. Wing, Larry and Daniel have never made that a selling point because they're honest about it. Even Daniel, who's creditability has been questioned in the past, has never passed off his watches as Swiss made. rhickey View Public Profile Send a private message to rhickey Find all posts by rhickey Add rhickey to Your Contacts #531 Today, 05:32 PM glasgow32 Senior Member Senior Geek

Wow, I did not read all the post, but still feel dirty some how. glasgow32 View Public Profile Send a private message to glasgow32 Find all posts by glasgow32 Add glasgow32 to Your Contacts #532 Today, 05:34 PM

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MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Question to Eyal, how much of the rest of the watch, beside the movement is swiss manufactured?

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shorabi Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by glasgow32 Wow, I did not read all the post, but still feel dirty some how. im with you! shorabi View Public Profile Send a private message to shorabi Send email to shorabi Find all posts by shorabi Add shorabi to Your Contacts

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#534 Today, 05:35 PM

Menace Senior Member Senior Geek

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Thanks for the clarification Quote: Originally Posted by TeamInvicta I have been asked to personally clarify the confusion with the markings on the watches. I feel I have a confident and open enough relationship with our customers to make a clear statement and get this matter clarified once and for all. While I know that it is impossible to satisfy everyone, it is our commitment to keep a top level relationship with our very loyal customer base.

There is a definite gray area in the use of the words Swiss•, Swiss Made•, Swiss Movements•, Swiss Parts•, Swiss Components•, and Swiss Registration•. The fact of the matter is that, like in many multiplecomponentproducts, where the country of origin adds value to the product, we tend to highlight that.

A perfect example is the auto industry. You might buy a Mercedes that is manufactured in Mexico using German engineering, some German parts, etc. The brand focuses on highlighting their Germanstandards.

Much in the same way, the watch industry does when Swiss is present. Without mentioning brands, it is important to understand that Switzerland almost produces NO watch components except parts associated with the movements, and assembly. What this means is that if you bought a $6000.00 Swiss Made Chronograph from Brand X•, what you are likely buying is a watch that houses a Swiss Made movement (And even the movement components themselves have their own complicated breakdown value. For instance, even if a movement is Swiss Made•, it does not mean every part in the movement was made in Switzerland, only a given percentage of that ) and the watch was assembled and tested in Switzerland. We do the same, and hopefully that brings clarity to everyone that when we mark a watch Swiss Made•, you are buying a Swiss Made watch with a Swiss made movement, that is assembled in Switzerland.

Then we get into the way we use the word SWISS•. The the word Swisswas used on watches as a description for a watch using a movement with Swiss part Origins. This includes movements that are bought from SWISS COMPANIES, with SWISS ENGENEERING, that are tested in Switzerland, but has components that are sent off to the Far East for cost purposes to be assembled. Examples of these are ETA, Ronda, ISA, Far East versions•. They were developed to assist in delivering the consumer more value, on an otherwise identical item. Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss Movement Far East assembly version. Yes as companies we do call more attention to this than the fact that the movement is assembled in China, but that™s marketing.

Then there is the talk about the Swiss Federation. I cannot speak too much into the Swiss Federation

standard because it is a private foreign entity, not a law dictating body, and we do not belong to it for a variety of reasons I prefer not to go into. I respect companies developing a stamp of approval and charging for it, such as COSC, but to be part of a group that develops standards on watches based on the direction of the big playersin the watch industry, and attempting to apply them to smaller companies without giving them a fair chance, is a monopoly, and I am strongly against that.

I make this statement on a personal level, and hope that it can bring some level of clarity to this discussion.

Sincerely, Eyal Eyal, thanks for the clarification and education. Some may still have issues but at least we know where you're coming from. For the record, I wore a quartz S/N III into a high line jewelry store yesterday and following a thorough inspection they thought I paid at least $3k. That's the real point of delivering unsurpassed value regardless of where the watch is made or how it is labeled...provided we Geeks understand the nuances of the labeling issue so thanks again for explaining.

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icewolf64 Senior Member Super Geek

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Questions for Eyal, #1 What is the difference between Swiss parts movement and Swiss on a watch other than more sales for your company.

#2 Why is the Technical Brand manager saying things on Shopnbc like there is no difference in the Swissness of a watch that is labeled Swiss. Or you put the Swiss name at the 3 o'clock position instead of the 6 o'clock position on a Russian diver because there is no room at the 6 o'clock position. NO ROOM! Give me a break it is the largest faced Invicta watch out there you managed to squeeze the whole word swiss made on my Ocean reef on either side of the 6.

Personally I will not by one of your watches that say Swiss on them and am thinking of persuing a refund on a watch that I bought almost a year ago from Shopnbc that was misrepresented by yourself who said on national air that the RD in question was all swiss. __________________

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Does the old saying, "Don't **** on my back and tell me it's raining" mean anything to anyone other than me?

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Tempestx Junior Member New Geek

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Eyal, thanks for your detailed explanation.

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Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Missouri Posts: 59

Quote: Originally Posted by Tempestx Eyal, thanks for your detailed explanation.

Yeah, thanks for letting me know that my "Swiss Made" Pro Diver with diamonds is really a Chinese made watch.

WingMaster View Public Profile Send a private message to WingMaster Find all posts by WingMaster Add WingMaster to Your Contacts #539 Today, 06:39 PM

KMC1212 Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: North Lauderdale, Florida Posts: 687 Real Name: Ken

Quote: Originally Posted by icewolf64 Questions for Eyal, #1 What is the difference between Swiss parts movement and Swiss on a watch other than more sales for your company. #2 Why is the Technical Brand manager saying things on Shopnbc like there is no difference in the Swissness of a watch that is labeled Swiss. Or you put the Swiss name at the 3 o'clock position instead of the 6 o'clock position on a Russian diver because there is no room at the 6 o'clock position. NO ROOM! Give me a break it is the largest faced Invicta watch out there you managed to squeeze the whole word swiss made on my Ocean reef on either side of the 6.

Personally I will not by one of your watches that say Swiss on them and am thinking of persuing a refund on a watch that I bought almost a year ago from Shopnbc that was misrepresented by yourself who said on national air that the RD in question was all swiss.

AMEN!!! Enough with the misrepresentations about "SWISS" If it's not "Swiss made" don't put ANYTHING on the dial KMC1212 View Public Profile Send a private message to KMC1212 Find all posts by KMC1212 Add KMC1212 to Your Contacts #540 Today, 06:46 PM

MessalineApghar Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Ian

Quote: Originally Posted by kless13 Tampa, I didn't take it that Eyal feels justified calling Swiss and Swiss Made the same in that post. Eyal says "Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss Movement Far East assembly version". I don't think he also feels that a "Swiss Made" watch is also generally a very inexpensive watch. And in this post, I do feel that Eyal relays the message that Swiss doesn't equal Swiss Made. Maybe I misunderstood the article. If so please chime in.

Kless, I ABSOLUTELY agree with your assessment, And to Eyal, Thank you for responding personally to this thread, with candor & clarity. __________________ If you wanna run cool, yes, if you wanna run cool, you've got to run on heavy heavy fuel - Dire Straits MessalineApghar View Public Profile Send a private message to MessalineApghar Send email to MessalineApghar Find all posts by MessalineApghar Add MessalineApghar to Your Contacts #541 Today, 06:50 PM

Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by WingMaster Yeah, thanks for letting me know that my "Swiss Made" Pro Diver with diamonds is really a Chinese made watch.

You're good. Invicta's labeled Swiss Made were not in question, they meet the Swiss Federation guidelines.

Just the Invicta's labeled Swiss being advertised, billed, and sold under the guise that they too are Swiss Made is where the wheels fell off the wagon.

Enjoy your Pro-Diver.

Kahuna Cowboy View Public Profile Send a private message to Kahuna Cowboy Send email to Kahuna Cowboy Find all posts by Kahuna Cowboy Add Kahuna Cowboy to Your Contacts #542 Today, 06:54 PM

MessalineApghar Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NYC Burbs Posts: 598 Real Name: Ian

Quote: Originally Posted by icewolf64 Questions for Eyal, #1 What is the difference between Swiss parts movement and Swiss on a watch other than more sales for your company. #2 Why is the Technical Brand manager saying things on Shopnbc like there is no difference in the Swissness of a watch that is labeled Swiss. Or you put the Swiss name at the 3 o'clock position instead of the 6 o'clock position on a Russian diver because there is no room at the 6 o'clock position. NO ROOM! Give me a break it is the largest faced Invicta watch out there you managed to squeeze the whole word swiss made on my Ocean reef on either side of the 6.

Personally I will not by one of your watches that say Swiss on them and am thinking of persuing a refund on a watch that I bought almost a year ago from Shopnbc that was misrepresented by yourself who said on national air that the RD in question was all swiss.

The way I understand it, and it might be a flawed understanding; Swiss Made is still the Hallmark, the watch receives >50% of it's parts from swiss factories, is assembled and QC'd in Switzerland.

Swiss-Movement = an entire ready-to-run movement that qualifies for "Swiss Made" but where it's not integrated into the watch in Switzerland.

Swiss-parts-movement = Movement parts are made in Switzerland, but not assembled there. again, assembly is probably farmed out to low-wage countries.

Swiss = a certain percentage of the parts in the watch are manufactured in Switzerland, and the point of assembly is unknown, usually low-wage areas. In this case, the Swiss parts may be movement or case or band or whatever.

Thats my take on it. __________________ If you wanna run cool, yes, if you wanna run cool, you've got to run on heavy heavy fuel - Dire Straits MessalineApghar View Public Profile Send a private message to MessalineApghar Send email to MessalineApghar Find all posts by MessalineApghar Add MessalineApghar to Your Contacts #543 Today, 07:00 PM watchluv Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 2,356

Advice to Eyal. Just a note as mentioned before. Try and follow behind the way Daniel, Wing, Larry, and Lior (Swiss Legend). When they put a Chinese, Japanese, or Swiss Movement they let you know what is inside because they know most of there customers don't open the case backs. They are honest, honesty is the policy. I hope you read this and have a change of heart, then a change in company procedures. It's not all about money at the end of the day, it's about a clear conscience and pease of mind. Loyalty to your customers. Good Luck. __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away

watchluv View Public Profile Send a private message to watchluv Find all posts by watchluv Add watchluv to Your Contacts #544 Today, 07:03 PM WingMaster Member Member Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy You're good. Invicta's labeled Swiss Made were not in question, they meet the Swiss Federation guidelines.

Just the Invicta's labeled Swiss being advertised, billed, and sold under the guise that they too are Swiss Made is where the wheels fell off the wagon.

Enjoy your Pro-Diver.

Seriously? I guess I'll go back and try to make sense of all this. Thanks.

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tampa8 Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by kless13 Tampa, I didn't take it that Eyal feels justified calling Swiss and Swiss Made the same in that post. Eyal says "Today, the word Swiss is used on watches that are very inexpensive, because the brand used a Swiss Movement Far East assembly version". I don't think he also feels that a "Swiss Made" watch is also generally a very inexpensive watch. And in this post, I do feel that Eyal relays the message that Swiss doesn't equal Swiss Made. Maybe I misunderstood the article. If so please chime in.

Hey Kless, the part that I found most telling, the one where I believe Invicta feels justified is this; (bold and underline is mine) "This includes movements that are bought from SWISS COMPANIES, with SWISS ENGENEERING, that are tested in Switzerland, but has components that are sent off to the Far East for cost purposes to be assembled.

Examples of these are ETA, Ronda, ISA, Far East versions•. They were developed to assist in delivering the consumer more value, on an otherwise identical item.

To me this says it all. Their take is, they are for all intent swiss parts, from swiss companies, being assembled in Asia, only to save money and thus lower the price. One of my original posts on all this was actually exactly this point. "Here's the problem. First, what do they mean by swiss made. Is it swiss made, say as an Omega, or is it swiss made by some other calculation/meaning." __________________ Remember, watches are people too. tampa8 View Public Profile Send a private message to tampa8 Find all posts by tampa8 Add tampa8 to Your Contacts #546 Today, 07:07 PM MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: colorado Posts: 998

the swiss law does not state 51% parts for the ENTIRE watch, only the movement, and the "value" of the total watch must be 50% swiss........what the hell does that mean? Is the cost of the engineering and design part of that???? I believe Jim addressed this, and said most watch companies outsource most of the watch, parts shipped to Swissland and assembled and inspected........Ive heard rumors that the Swiss goverment is trying to change the law to 80% across the board, but so far only a rumor.

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Senior Member Senior Geek

I'm old enough to remember the difficulty GM got into by putting Chevrolet engines into Buicks.

I won't buy an Invicta unless it says Swiss Made.

"Reserve For those who know Best" SailRacer Last edited by SailRacer; Today at 07:09 PM. Reason: Typos SailRacer View Public Profile Send a private message to SailRacer Send email to SailRacer Find all posts by SailRacer Add SailRacer to Your Contacts #548 Today, 07:11 PM

nycruza Senior Member Super Geek

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Name: A.J.

TIME TO LOCK THIS DOWN! Seems some people cannot keep it civil. __________________

SANIII on the Rocks with a Twist of Lemon nycruza View Public Profile Send a private message to nycruza Find all posts by nycruza Add nycruza to Your Contacts #549 Today, 07:14 PM

Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member Super Geek

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Jeff

Quote: Originally Posted by nycruza

TIME TO LOCK THIS DOWN! Seems some people cannot keep it civil.

Huh? Kahuna Cowboy View Public Profile Send a private message to Kahuna Cowboy Send email to Kahuna Cowboy Find all posts by Kahuna Cowboy Add Kahuna Cowboy to Your Contacts #550 Today, 07:18 PM Bahoomba Senior Member Super Geek

Uh..who isn't being civil? In no way should this thread be closed...in no way.

So many excellent points are being brought up here. And it's necessary.

Not to mention vital.

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Nasty Senior Member Super Geek

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Seems civil to me all things considered...

Nasty View Public Profile Send a private message to Nasty Send email to Nasty Find all posts by Nasty Add Nasty to Your Contacts #552 Today, 07:20 PM watchluv Senior Member Super Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by Bahoomba Uh..who isn't being civil? In no way should this thread be closed...in no way.

So many excellent points are being brought up here. And it's necessary.

Not to mention vital.

I second that motion. Keep it open. __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away watchluv View Public Profile

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MessalineApghar Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by MREXE the swiss law does not state 51% parts for the ENTIRE watch, only the movement, and the "value" of the total watch must be 50% swiss........what the hell does that mean? Is the cost of the engineering and design part of that???? I believe Jim addressed this, and said most watch companies outsource most of the watch, parts shipped to Swissland and assembled and inspected........Ive heard rumors that the Swiss goverment is trying to change the law to 80% across the board, but so far only a rumor. it means if the watch has 100 parts in the movement each part has a specific production cost and therefore "value" if every part of this 100-part example movement, had an equal value of $1, on a $100 movement, 51 parts and $51 would meet the "Swiss-Movement" criteria. to meet swiss-made, 51% of the cost of the movement's parts have to be made in switzerland. in some cases this might be met by 2 parts out of 100, and in some cases it might be 90 parts out of 100. a watch-owner would have no way to know how many parts (By count) in the movement are valued as "SwissMade" & "Switzerland Assembly" other then 51% or more of the cash value of the parts. __________________ If you wanna run cool, yes, if you wanna run cool, you've got to run on heavy heavy fuel - Dire Straits MessalineApghar View Public Profile Send a private message to MessalineApghar Send email to MessalineApghar Find all posts by MessalineApghar Add MessalineApghar to Your Contacts

#554 Today, 07:22 PM

oshuwah Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Chester County PA Posts: 905 Real Name: Josh

Eyal's description of the issue is exactly what I have always known it to be. Im cool. I know the russian divers that say swiss and cost $100 bucks were assembled in asia. I know the SAS that says swiss made and cost $300+ was assembled in Switzerland.

How did this become a massive thread - this is nothing new folks.

I own a full range of invicta's and love every one. Especially my new SANIV 7750.

BTW - if they make a SANIV w/ a miyota assembled in Bangkok for $199 I'd buy 'em all.

And so would you. __________________ ...just one more and I'll be satisfied oshuwah View Public Profile Send a private message to oshuwah Send email to oshuwah Visit oshuwah's homepage!

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reliefcp Senior Member Master WatchGeek

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To those that choose to not be civil like the ones using the XL letters in their type please find another thread. __________________

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MessalineApghar Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by timeman Because it's better marketing to have "Swiss" on the dial that will sell more watches. no. Being marked "Swiss" is actually a LOWER requirement then "Swiss Parts Movement" __________________ If you wanna run cool, yes, if you wanna run cool, you've got to run on heavy heavy fuel - Dire Straits MessalineApghar View Public Profile Send a private message to MessalineApghar Send email to MessalineApghar Find all posts by MessalineApghar Add MessalineApghar to Your Contacts #557 Today, 07:24 PM

tampa8 Senior Member Super Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by nycruza

TIME TO LOCK THIS DOWN! Seems some people cannot keep it civil.

I don't understand, still one of the most civil threads I can remember for such a passionate subject... __________________ Remember, watches are people too.

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tampa8 View Public Profile Send a private message to tampa8 Find all posts by tampa8 Add tampa8 to Your Contacts #558 Today, 07:26 PM Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

Unless you have any further questions for Eyal, please do not post here...

Thank you...

Is Eyal coming back to answer the questions posted thus far?

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MessalineApghar Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NYC Burbs Posts: 598 Real Name:

Ian

Quote: Originally Posted by Time Bandit Is Eyal coming back to answer the questions posted thus far?

Just a guess, but I believe he's probably "subscribed" to a thread he answered personally. __________________ If you wanna run cool, yes, if you wanna run cool, you've got to run on heavy heavy fuel - Dire Straits MessalineApghar View Public Profile Send a private message to MessalineApghar Send email to MessalineApghar Find all posts by MessalineApghar Add MessalineApghar to Your Contacts #560 Today, 07:29 PM

invictaddicted Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 320 Real Name: Gary

Quote: Originally Posted by watchluv Advice to Eyal. Just a note as mentioned before. Try and follow behind the way Daniel, Wing, Larry, and Lior (Swiss Legend). When they put a Chinese, Japanese, or Swiss Movement they let you know what is inside because they know most of there customers don't open the case backs. They are honest, honesty is the policy.

I hope you read this and have a change of heart, then a change in company procedures. It's not all about money at the end of the day, it's about a clear conscience and pease of mind. Loyalty to your customers.

Good Luck. yeah use renato as an example, they are the epitome of honest....... limited edition renato anyone?

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MessalineApghar Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NYC Burbs Posts: 598 Real Name: Ian

Quote: Originally Posted by oshuwah Eyal's description of the issue is exactly what I have always known it to be. Im cool. I know the russian divers that say swiss and cost $100 bucks were assembled in asia. I know the SAS that says swiss made and cost $300+ was assembled in Switzerland.

How did this become a massive thread - this is nothing new folks.

I own a full range of invicta's and love every one. Especially my new SANIV 7750.

BTW - if they make a SANIV w/ a miyota assembled in Bangkok for $199 I'd buy 'em all.

And so would you.

Absolutely.

I want my OS20 SAS. for $199. __________________ If you wanna run cool, yes, if you wanna run cool, you've got to run on heavy heavy fuel - Dire Straits MessalineApghar View Public Profile Send a private message to MessalineApghar

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Question to Eyal. Is the 5040E movement all Swiss Made? __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away watchluv View Public Profile Send a private message to watchluv Find all posts by watchluv Add watchluv to Your Contacts #563 Today, 07:40 PM Argabright Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,779

Quote: Originally Posted by MessalineApghar no. Being marked "Swiss" is actually a LOWER requirement then "Swiss Parts Movement" According to WHOM? ShopNBC hosts and the Invicta Technical Brand Manager specifically and REPEATEDLY stated that SWISS was the same as SWISS MADE. Presumably this was with Eyal's blessing, if not at his direction. Now, of course, after photographic proof to the contrary was posted, these new definitions are being offered. __________________

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kless13 Member Member Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by MessalineApghar Absolutely.

I want my OS20 SAS. for $199.

Funny. kless13 View Public Profile Send a private message to kless13 Find all posts by kless13

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Add kless13 to Your Contacts #565 Today, 07:46 PM

MessalineApghar Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NYC Burbs Posts: 598 Real Name: Ian

Quote: Originally Posted by Argabright According to WHOM? ShopNBC hosts and the Invicta Technical Brand Manager specifically and REPEATEDLY stated that SWISS was the same as SWISS MADE. Presumably this was with Eyal's blessing, if not at his direction. Now, of course, after photographic proof to the contrary was posted, these new definitions are being offered.

The laws regarding Origin of watches & movements, are clear, and posted elsewhere on the site. US Customs has laws regarding this, as does the Swiss Government.

While I can't and won't argue what was said, because obviously there were either mistakes or outright misleading claims made, I can say that the watches themselves are in all probability, properly marked. now for my education, Has Invicta ever marked a watch marked as "Swiss Movement" or "Swiss Parts Movement" ? I know they have marketed both "Swiss" and "Swiss-Made", but have they used any of the inbetween gradings ?

Oh and BTW, I know there have been companies that label and market as "ALL Swiss Made" . without owning one, I can say that I'm sure these are the Breitlings and Rolexs of the world. __________________ If you wanna run cool, yes, if you wanna run cool, you've got to run on heavy heavy fuel - Dire Straits MessalineApghar View Public Profile Send a private message to MessalineApghar Send email to MessalineApghar Find all posts by MessalineApghar Add MessalineApghar to Your Contacts

#566 Today, 07:57 PM

timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 4,724 Real Name: Jerry

Quote: Originally Posted by MessalineApghar no. Being marked "Swiss" is actually a LOWER requirement then "Swiss Parts Movement" You have it wrong my friend. If a manufacture follows the Swiss Federation definition of a Swiss made watch, "Swiss Made" is the same as "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock hour marker. Both terms mean a Swiss Made watch.

If a manufacture is following the U.S. Custom regulations, the word "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock hour marker mean the watch has a Swiss Made Movement, meaning Swiss parts assembled in Switzerland.

A movement that has Swiss parts and assembled outside Switzerland is your Swiss parts movement.

A watch is considered the best if it's Swiss Made, followed by one with a Swiss Made movement, and then one with a Swiss parts movement. The value of a watch follows this same order. __________________

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Today, 08:00 PM

MessalineApghar Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NYC Burbs Posts: 598 Real Name: Ian

Quote: Originally Posted by timeman You have it wrong my friend. If a manufacture follows the Swiss Federation definition of a Swiss made watch, "Swiss Made" is the same as "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock hour marker. Both terms mean a Swiss Made watch.

If a manufacture is following the U.S. Custom regulations, the word "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock hour marker mean the watch has a Swiss Made Movement, meaning Swiss parts assembled in Switzerland.

A movement that has Swiss parts and assembled outside Switzerland is your Swiss parts movement.

A watch is considered the best if it's Swiss Made, followed by one with a Swiss Made movement, and then one with a Swiss parts movement. The value of a watch follows this same order.

Honestly, no sarcasm, thank you for the correction.

Quote: Originally Posted by timeman ...A watch is considered the best if it's Swiss Made, followed by one with a Swiss Made movement, and then one with a Swiss parts movement. The value of a watch follows this same order. << I knew that the SM-SMM-SPM were staged like that, I had reason to believe "Swiss" was a lower spec, a 4th tier if you get me, below even swiss-parts-movement. my apologies for confusing anyone. __________________ If you wanna run cool, yes, if you wanna run cool, you've got to run on heavy heavy fuel - Dire Straits MessalineApghar View Public Profile Send a private message to MessalineApghar Send email to MessalineApghar Find all posts by MessalineApghar

Add MessalineApghar to Your Contacts #568 Today, 08:01 PM rjaybass Senior Member Senior Geek

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I have heard Jim say that in order for a watch to be Swiss Made it must be at least %51 Swiss parts and assembled and inspected in Switzerland. That leaves alot of non Swiss parts in there. So.... any other designation MUST be taken with several grains of salt. This entire broo ha has been much about very little..

IMO __________________ [SIGPIC] rjaybass View Public Profile Send a private message to rjaybass Send email to rjaybass Find all posts by rjaybass Add rjaybass to Your Contacts #569 Today, 08:04 PM

timeman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by MessalineApghar Honestly, no sarcasm, thank you for the correction. << I knew that the SM-SMM-SPM were staged like that, I had reason to believe "Swiss" was a lower spec, a 4th tier if you get me, below even swiss-parts-movement. my apologies for confusing anyone.

No problem my friend. __________________

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Quote: Originally Posted by rjaybass I have heard Jim say that in order for a watch to be Swiss Made it must be at least %51 Swiss parts and assembled and inspected in Switzerland. That leaves alot of non Swiss parts in there. So.... any other designation MUST be taken with several grains of salt. This entire broo ha has been much about very little..

IMO You left out the most important. The movement must be Swiss Made. __________________ Time to Watch as Time Passes Away

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rhickey Senior Member Senior Geek

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We should have a "Look what I REALLY got" thread in which we pop open are casebacks to reveal what's really in our new Invicta!!! rhickey View Public Profile Send a private message to rhickey Find all posts by rhickey Add rhickey to Your Contacts #572 Today, 08:26 PM

GeorgeTheWatchGuy WatchGeeks Moderator True WatchGeek

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: OHIO Posts: 8,016

This thread will remain open, as long as you honor the request I made eariler... No more evaluations of Eyal's responce... Only direct questions for Eyal... This rehashing, & rehashing, of all your evaluations, is not helping getting any further

responses from him...If I'm having a hard time keeping up with this thread, how do you think he or his team are doing???

Thank you again for the last time! __________________

"There are Two Types of Pain in this World: The Temporary Pain of Discipline, or the Permanent Pain of Regret"... GTWG GeorgeTheWatchGuy View Public Profile Send a private message to GeorgeTheWatchGuy Find all posts by GeorgeTheWatchGuy Add GeorgeTheWatchGuy to Your Contacts #573 Today, 09:18 PM

Scout13 Senior Member Senior Geek

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George, Your the man, thanks for keeping th thread open. This is what a forum is for, the good and the bad should be able to be discussed openly. Old or new info, does not matter, many people are very concerned and it's good to

let it all hang out.. __________________

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buddah00 Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: GA Posts: 1,197 Real Name: Isaac

WOW That was a long and interesting read. I am still processing it all. Invicta makes up the majority of my collection several of them are in the $800-$1500 range. I appreciate Eyal posting a response and I understand marketing and have no problem with a company highlighting the aspects of a product that appeals to consumers.

I don't understand and would like to know why we were told that Swiss = Swiss Made, when that is not the case.

I am happy with my Invictas, I am eagerly awaiting the two SAN IV's I bought this weekend. (One quartz, one automatic) I just want to know what I am purchasing. __________________

I want what every other man want's, I Just want it MORE!

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blduckhockey Member Member Geek

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Jersey Posts: 92 Real Name: Barry

I have one watch that I know is pure swiss made. A rolex explorer. When it was cleaned and tuned up a bit after 6 years, I asked the technician more or less as a joke was it a fake. He explained no way--talked about serial numbers, the mark inside the back of the cae with the manufacture date that match up, the seal etc. markings on the rotor and on. I got an education by just joking if it was a fake. I guess it is real!!!

But I buy a watch because I like how it looks and runs. I like Invictas. I guess because I have a true bottom of the line swiss rolex, I could care where my Invicta was made.

That said---just tell the truth---I would buy anyway if I like it---the bottom line to me. samuelrz Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: May 2009 Location: N. California

Posts: 1,332 Real Name: Sam

Quote: Originally Posted by GeorgeTheWatchGuy

This thread will remain open, as long as you honor the request I made eariler... No more evaluations of Eyal's responce... Only direct questions for Eyal... This rehashing, & rehashing, of all your evaluations, is not helping getting any further responses from him...If I'm having a hard time keeping up with this thread, how do you think he or his team are doing???

Thank you again for the last time!

You are a gentleman and a scholar. This thread has kept the moderators busy. I've learned a lot and you guys have kept it civil. Cheers. __________________ SAM -

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Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 50

I dunno...I guess the definitions always seemed clear to me, and I appreciate Eyal's clarification. I knew my "lower-end" Invictas (Sport Python and the like) were Swiss Parts. My SANIII, Swiss Made. Never for a minute thought, for example, that my Sea Spider Sport could *possibly* have been Swiss Made for the price...even *if* it said "Swiss" on the dial. At some point, simple common sense has to kick in, and that old adage of "you get what you pay for" applies.

It's simple. I buy Invictas for *affordability*, and do my homework before jumping on the phone or on the Shop to buy ASAP the minute I see the first presentation. If I've had a doubt, I don't buy. If I've had a doubt, I check the threads here and see what's out there regarding my prospective purchase. Above all, I've *never* expected to pay less than $350 on a *good* day for a "Swiss Made" Invicta. Again, I'm *never* going to be one of those folks lucky enough to have $3k or up to buy one of the *major* brands. Like other posters have said, I look for the value that Invicta offers...if that means I save up and drop $350 for a Swiss Made watch, having done my *own* homework to make sure it *is* Swiss Made so be it. If I drop $125 and get what *I* consider to be a steal on a "swiss parts" watch, and I *love* the watch, so be it.

Seriously folks...at the end of the day, you're buying an Invicta, on a TV shopping channel...never will be a Tag, or a Breitling, Patek Phillipe, or anything else. Not meaning to downplay what I consider to be the *value* of Invicta, as I've been nothing but happy thus far with my purchases...but it's called perspective, folks...and why most of us won't *touch* an Invicta above the $350 sweet-spot, no matter how much we may drool over it. hooptious02 View Public Profile Send a private message to hooptious02 Find all posts by hooptious02 Add hooptious02 to Your Contacts #578 Today, 10:54 PM

ranger1482 Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Toledo, OH Posts: 129 Real Name: Matt

I'm happy to be a better educated consumer after all of this, and while I don't really agree with everything that has been said, I love that we all have a place to debate topics such as this one.

I really don't care where a watch was made or where the parts came from, I want to love the look of the watch and I want it to work for a long time. However, I am seriously having a trust issue right now. I need to feel that I can trust the company and the store that I am shopping with.

I think the burning question for me is, "What is invicta and shopnbc going to do to regain my trust after this?"

Coming out and finally clarifying the truth is a start, but I also need to see apologies.

Truth is, I would have bought each of the watches I bought whether they said made in china, swiss made or made in the USA. However, either due to a mistake or an attempt to mislead me, the products I bought were in some cases were misrepresented...and as the customer, I have the right to ask "why?"

If I like the answers and feel they come from a man/woman of integrity, then I can live with what happened. If I don't, then the brand loyality of myself and my father will no longer exist. I'm not saying I would never buy a watch from Invicta again, but I would be extremely careful.

I only ask that anyone who takes the time to read my post to please understand that for me this isn't a matter of Swiss vs Swiss Made and what each means. Rather this is an issue of trusting the people I send my money to. ps - Thank you Jim for giving us a place to discuss this issue, thank you moderators for allowing this thread to continue, and thank you Eyal for taking your time set us all straight on the facts. ranger1482 View Public Profile Send a private message to ranger1482 Find all posts by ranger1482 Add ranger1482 to Your Contacts #579 Today, 11:05 PM

nycruza Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,348 Real Name: A.J.

Yes, an Asian Movement can still equal "Swiss Made" watch, unless I am misinterpreting the following: "In the case of products that have been only partly manufactured in Switzerland, the rule applies that the Swiss portion of the production cost (including basic materials, semi-finished products, accessories, wages and production overhead excluding distribution costs) must be at least 50%.

The Swiss portion of the production cost must be at least 50%. ¢ The most important part of the manufacturing process must have taken place in Switzerland. The most important part of the manufacturing processis that part of the process that results in a completely new product. The determining factor here is that the original characteristics of the goods are lost through the manufacturing process, and the possible application of the goods is different from that of the basic materials of foreign origin used in their manufacture."

In a watch/timepiece the part that results in a "completely new product" deals with CASE, BEZEL, DIAL.

Movements do NOT result in a "completely new product".

Therefore, a watch that meets the criteria above with a movement from ANYWHERE may be labeled "Swiss Made". __________________

SANIII on the Rocks with a Twist of Lemon

Time is the most valuable thing a man can spend.

Theophrastus (372 BC - 287 BC) http://watchlords.forumotion.net/index.htm