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Invicta Tourbillion Lupah -Swiss Or Chinese Movement? CONFIRMED CHINESE MOVEMENT
Just played back last night's show when Eyal said an Invicta Tourbillion Lupah Revolution was in the works, and would sell between $3,000, $4000, or $5,000. The question is will it have a Chinese or Swiss movement? Android and Stuhrling Original are selling Chinese made Tourbillions for $700 to $900, so who would pay up to $5,000 for an Invicta Tourbillion Lupah Revolution with a Chinese movement? IMO the answer is very few people would, so I tend to believe the movement will be reported to be Swiss. If it's stated to be a Swiss movement, will it be considered a "Swiss Made" Tourbillion movement, or one with Swiss parts assembled outside of Switzerland? What do you think, Chinese or Swiss movement? EDIT: CONFIRMED CHINESE MOVEMENT BY EYAL, SEE POST #27. __________________
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timeman View Public Profile Send a private message to timeman Find all posts by timeman Add timeman to Your Contacts #2 11-07-2010, 10:36 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2008 timeman Senior Member True WatchGeek
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Found this interesting bit of information at wikipedia, that report Chinese tourbillion components are being assembled into Tourbillions that are considered "Swiss Made" because they comply with the requirements of the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry. Here is the section I referred to: "Several Chinese manufacturers now produce a variety of tourbillon movements. These movements are bought as Ebauches by some foreign manufacturers such as Cecil Purnell and incorporated into watches that meet the requirements of the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry to be sold as Swiss watches. The availability of cheap tourbillons has led industry spectators to worry that another Quartz crisis may occur, where the Swiss watch industry will not be able to adapt quickly to cheaper complicated mechanical watches produced in other countries." Would Invicta consider going this route to market a Swiss Tourbillion watch for less than $5,000? __________________
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Find all posts by timeman Add timeman to Your Contacts #3 11-07-2010, 11:03 AM MrAutoGuy
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No disrespect to Invicta but at $$3k-5k, I'm in Rolex/Breitling/Omega territory (I'm talking prestige brands in this range). Unless Eyal is talking MSRP prices so the actual price may be more like $1.5k! __________________ Current: Seiko Frankenmonster, Seiko 007, Orient Big Mako, Citizen EcoZilla, SANIII Auto, Auto Grand Diver, GA100 'BumbleBee', Excursion, SW200 SANIV
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I think that he is talking MSRP of $3000 to $5000 for it and it will sell on SNBC for around $1000. JMO! Marlin
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Quote: Originally Posted by Silver13Watch I think that he is talking MSRP of $3000 to $5000 for it and it will sell on SNBC for around $1000. JMO! Marlin Agreed...
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Quote: Originally Posted by MrAutoGuy No disrespect to Invicta but at $$3k-5k, I'm in Rolex/Breitling/Omega territory (I'm talking prestige
brands in this range). Unless Eyal is talking MSRP prices so the actual price may be more like $1.5k! Quote: Originally Posted by Silver13Watch I think that he is talking MSRP of $3000 to $5000 for it and it will sell on SNBC for around $1000. JMO! Marlin Quote: Originally Posted by kenshabby Agreed... So a Chinese movement? __________________
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11-07-2010, 11:23 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Silver13Watch
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Sorry about that, I got so into the price thing I lost track. Oh yeah definitely Chinese movement. Marlin
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If those prices are msrp, I'd imagine that it will be a Chinese movement, and sell for less at actual sales price. It'd be difficult to use a Swiss tourbillon like say a Technotime movement and come in with a sales price of less than $5k in my opinion. __________________ Eric.
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Who would think the Swiss Made Invicta Reserve Men's Pro Diver Valjoux 7750 with a MSRP of $1500 would sell for $498.12. If anyone could make a Swiss Tourbillion for $2,000 to $5,000, it would be Eyal. __________________
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One thing we all must not loose sight of is 98% of the Swiss Watch Industry has setup shop in China or use Chinese produced movement and/or parts in their watches and this includes brand that sell in the
range of $1,000 to $25,000 and beyond as long as they meet the Federation standards whether by a large margin or just barley staying within the guidelines. Invicta did not started this trend or are they a leader of this trend but merely a player maybe using the same methodology as the rest of the brands and manufacturers. As long as they continue to bring the type of watches I like and at the prices I can afford I will be buying and not disecting methods, idealology or practices.
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I have no guess or speculation, but I will just have to wait for more information.
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Quote: Originally Posted by hobefabu One thing we all must loose sight of 98% of the Swiss Watch Industry has setu shop in China or use Chinese produced movement and/or parts in their watches and this includes brand that sell in the range of $1,000 to $25,000 and beyond as long as they meet the Federation standards whether by a large margin or just barley staying within the guidelines. Invicta has not started this trend or are they a leader of this trend but merely a player maybe using the same methodology as the rest of the brands and manufacturers. As long as they continue to bring the type of watches I like and at the prices I can afford I will be buying and not disecting methods, idealology or practices. If Invicta follows the Swiss Federation guidelines, as they do now for their "Swiss Made" watches; only requires approximately 51% of the total value of the components to be Swiss, might be able to pull it off. __________________
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I can't see how a 5k Swiss tourbillion would be possible.
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Well if its a Reserve Piece, I'm assuming a Swiss Movement. But I do agree with MR.Autoguy, for that much money I'm looking at Rolex, Breitling, Seiko Spring Drive, Citizen Campanola ect. __________________
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All Lupah Revo's have been swiss made that I know of so the movement would have to qualify if that streak were to continue. And you never know with Invicta. They can always get movements and stuff and offer them at lower prices. __________________ Everything I'm not made me everything I am!!!
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#16 11-07-2010, 01:35 PM Join Date: Aug 2008 JoeH
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I also believe it will be a chinese movement... It should be a stunning looking watch if they are going to use the lupah case... __________________ Joe
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Would never pay over $1,000.00 for an Invicta. So count me out. Anything over $1,000.00, I would need to know that I could sell it for nearly what I paid for it.
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11-07-2010, 05:14 PM Join Date: Mar 2009 yjmebs
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why speculate and have this thread go for 25 pages with no facts? Why not ask Mike or in ask Jim section before this thread gets outta hand? __________________
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Add yjmebs to Your Contacts #19 11-07-2010, 05:16 PM Join Date: Mar 2008 timeman Senior Member True WatchGeek
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Quote: Originally Posted by yjmebs why speculate and have this thread go for 25 pages with no facts? Why not ask Mike or in ask Jim section before this thread gets outta hand? Maybe someone in the know will add their 2 cents. __________________
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that's why it should be addressed to Mike or Jim. Until they chime in people will be "assuming" all kinds of stuff and in the end "thread closed". Just my predication. Good luck! __________________
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If Eyal can pull off a SWISS MADE Tourby for 2 to 3K more power to him. If he could pull that off, I think that would make Invicta the first company to do so. I can't think of another watch maker that has accomplished that. Most of the ones I have seen in the watch catalogs like 'Watch Time Special Edition Buyers Guide 2010' list tourbys at six figures like Breuget's Classique Grande Complication at 374,900USD or A. Lange & Sohne's Datograph Perpetual at 108,300USD. Granted this is like comparing apples to oranges with Invicta not to mention the fact that the movements are all done in house. I am not sure who Invicta would source to obtain the movements. There is a site a found online that specializes in the sale of Chinese Made Tourbillons. The manufacturer is called 'Tourous' and they range from 5,695.00 to 995.00USD. Food for Thought Jon
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The day I pay over $1K for any IWC piece is the day I have my head examined. I have at least 15 IWC pieces, but c'mon. At that price point, your options are damn near endless.
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Yes!
Quote: Originally Posted by Nasty The day I pay over $1K for any IWC piece is the day I have my head examined. I have at least 15 IWC pieces, but c'mon. At that price point, your options are damn near endless. I agree completely with everything you said I think! Actually I'm just embarrassed that I don't know what "IWC" stands for! I know what it means, just not the initials... __________________
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IWC International Whaling Commission LOL IWC International Watch Company SCHAFFHAUSEN http://www.iwc.com aren't we talking about IWG Invcita Watch Group Jon
Last edited by jwin66; 11-07-2010 at 06:35 PM. Reason: additional content
jwin66 View Public Profile Send a private message to jwin66 Send email to jwin66 Find all posts by jwin66 Add jwin66 to Your Contacts #25 11-07-2010, 06:35 PM Join Date: Jul 2008 Nasty Senior Member Super Geek
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I thought my SR box said IWC? Maybe IWG?
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Quote: Originally Posted by Nasty I thought my SR box said IWC? Maybe IWG? I don't think you could find an new IWC anywhere in the world for 1K. IWC is a well respected Swiss watch house. As for tourby's I think JLC makes the cheapest swiss tourby in the world right @ $35,000 give or take a few grand. There is no way IWG is making a true swiss tourby for under 5K. JMHO Tandi View Public Profile Send a private message to Tandi Send email to Tandi Find all posts by Tandi Add Tandi to Your Contacts #27 11-07-2010, 07:05 PM
timeman Senior Member True WatchGeek
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Eyal just said Chinese movement, but modified by Invicta. Four models to be made.. Lupah, Sabaqua Noma III, Sabaqua Noma IV, and Venom. This was his response to a caller on Jim's show. __________________
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Eyal just let it out a modified Chinese in 4 versions.Very interesting! __________________
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Well, Eyal just said 4 models with modified Chinese Tourbillons in 2011! Venom, Sub3, Sub4, Lupah. Krazy View Public Profile Send a private message to Krazy Find all posts by Krazy Add Krazy to Your Contacts #30 11-07-2010, 07:09 PM jericho Senior Member True WatchGeek
i would love to see the venom tourbillon bet it will be killer jericho View Public Profile Send a private message to jericho
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Find all posts by jericho Add jericho to Your Contacts #31 11-07-2010, 07:21 PM Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,997 Nasty Senior Member Super Geek
For $3-5K?!?!?! I'll eat my shoe! Nasty View Public Profile Send a private message to Nasty Send email to Nasty Find all posts by Nasty Add Nasty to Your Contacts #32 11-07-2010, 07:37 PM
timeman Senior Member True WatchGeek
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Quote: Originally Posted by Nasty For $3-5K?!?!?! I'll eat my shoe! I believe the price range Eyal stated was from $2,000 up to $5,000. If these prices come true, it will be one of the most expensive Invictas made. Eyal just mentioned they will be out in April
2011. __________________
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For 3 to 5K I would but an Omega or comparable brand that retains its value through time. 2K and up becomes and investment to me not just a collectible piece. I do hope that is the MSRP and not Shops Intro Price..I can't see them being able to compete with other Vendors like Android and Stuhrling that pitch their Chinese Made Versions for sub 1k territory. Who in watch geek land is going to shell out several thousand for a modified Chinese (SEA-Gull) movement?? Jon
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I agree Jon... I can buy $300-500 watches all day and deal with the depreciation. No way at $3K... Never. Nasty View Public Profile Send a private message to Nasty Send email to Nasty Find all posts by Nasty Add Nasty to Your Contacts #35 11-07-2010, 07:44 PM
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I don't understand why anyone would buy any of these Chinese torbillions anyway? You could buy Swiss ETA 2893, 2824, 7750, 7751, Valgrange A07 on and on, and EVERY one of those is a MUCH better movement than a Chinese Torbillion, it doesn't matter if it is Android, Sthurling,
or Invicta. I think they are all overpriced and will most likely not last. __________________
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ya to much for me i want a tourby but will wait until one shows up for me da40kay View Public Profile Send a private message to da40kay Send email to da40kay Find all posts by da40kay
Add da40kay to Your Contacts #37 11-07-2010, 07:50 PM
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I'm sure the Turbys will be competitively priced to the SO and Android ones. In four different models, I'm sure there will be a twist to raise the prices from one model to the next. Hopefully the new Venom will have the Turby. That would be interesting to see. __________________ There is no reality outside the Matrix TheMatrix View Public Profile Send a private message to TheMatrix Send email to TheMatrix Find all posts by TheMatrix Add TheMatrix to Your Contacts #38 11-07-2010, 07:52 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by TheMatrix I'm sure the Turbys will be competitively priced to the SO and Android ones. In four different models, I'm sure there will be a twist to raise the prices from one model to the next. Hopefully the new Venom will have the Turby. That would be interesting to see.
Eyal said they will be in the Lupah Revolution, SANIII, SANIV, and Venom __________________
It will be mine ricard75 View Public Profile Send a private message to ricard75 Find all posts by ricard75 Add ricard75 to Your Contacts #39 11-07-2010, 07:57 PM
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Don't get me wrong I love the poetry, the seamless harmony of watching a tourbillon cage rotate. I would love to own one of these someday from either Android Stuhrling or Invicta but at 1k or less. I have several Chinese Made watches with SEA-Gull movements in them and they run great. Unless Invicta introduces their model during Spring Forward at 1K I will wait for other incarnations from Android and Stuhrling. Jon
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He'll do swiss made ,you heard larry talking the chinese oceanghost39 View Public Profile Send a private message to oceanghost39 Find all posts by oceanghost39 Add oceanghost39 to Your Contacts #41 11-07-2010, 10:47 PM DHL Senior Member Super Geek
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Quote: Originally Posted by oceanghost39 He'll do swiss made ,you heard larry talking the chinese No Eyal specifically said a Chinese sourced movement with parts tweaked "in house" by Invicta.
A true Swiss made touby runs $10-100K and more. DHL View Public Profile Send a private message to DHL Find all posts by DHL Add DHL to Your Contacts #42 11-07-2010, 10:50 PM DHL Senior Member Super Geek
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Quote: Originally Posted by jwin66
For 3 to 5K I would but an Omega or comparable brand that retains its value through time. 2K and up becomes and investment to me not just a collectible piece. I do hope that is the MSRP and not Shops Intro Price..I can't see them being able to compete with other Vendors like Android and Stuhrling that pitch their Chinese Made Versions for sub 1k territory. Who in watch geek land is going to shell out several thousand for a modified Chinese (SEA-Gull) movement?? Jon Invicta will probably be competitive with Android and SO (not to forget XO), which means prices near $1K. They have never been the brand to be higher in price than their competitors (at least on SNBC). DHL View Public Profile Send a private message to DHL Find all posts by DHL Add DHL to Your Contacts
#43 Yesterday, 06:41 AM RunninOnEmpty Senior Member Senior Geek
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No one would buy an Invicta with a Swiss Made Tourby. RunninOnEmpty View Public Profile Send a private message to RunninOnEmpty Find all posts by RunninOnEmpty Add RunninOnEmpty to Your Contacts #44 Yesterday, 07:57 AM Hawk404 Junior Member Member Geek
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Quote: Who in watch geek land is going to shell out several thousand for a modified Chinese (SEAGull) movement?? I'm no expert nor am I privy to any clairvoyance regarding what the market will bear but I'd probably cough up for a well executed Sea-Gull / Invicta. A few notes (all based on my opinion and fallible observation): 1. I do not share the outlook that there exists any degree of homogeneity based on lines drawn on a map. A MillionSmart tourbillon can sell for sub 1K street prices but I'm less certain about Sea-Gull - their own starts at 5K. Beijing Watch Company has tourbillons that make some Swiss models look like a raging bargain. Lumping all Chinese tourbillons together is no more accurate than lumping all Swiss mechanicals together. 2. Tourbillons compare to auto mechanicals in roughly the same way that auto mechanicals compare to quartz movements - it's simply that much more little fiddly mechanical bits, wearing their insides on their outsides, steampunking away. There's a thread running right now waxing poetic about auto movements (ah, here 'tis.)
Why wouldn't the same observations derived from the mechanical apply to the tourbillon only more so? If you want to know what time it is, buy a quartz, if you want resale value buy index funds or gold. Personally, I don't have any sort of problem with Asian parts and / or assembly but I do have a preference for disclosure and some distinct brand preferences. Like many brand preferences, they may not be rational . F'rinstance, I am far more likely to spend 5 to 9K for a Sea-Gull Tourbillon from Sea-Gull than I am to spend 900.00 for a re-badged Million Smart tourbillon from anyone whose only repair option is to replace. It's early and speculative but the one major fly I see in the Invicta ointment is the part where I heard "modified". If you "modify" something you own it. You own it you'll have to fix it. This takes infrastructure. At least that would be the case with a 5K and up street price. That and, IMHO, a tourbillon in a ginormous case looks goofy unless, of course, it's a triple axis - that could be great fun: YouTube - THOMAS PRESCHER, Triple Axis...
Hawk404 View Public Profile Send a private message to Hawk404 Find all posts by Hawk404 Add Hawk404 to Your Contacts #45 Yesterday, 11:09 AM
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Huh? Are you saying that Invicta have become members of the Swiss Federation? Quote: Originally Posted by timeman
If Invicta follows the Swiss Federation guidelines, as they do now for their "Swiss Made" watches... __________________
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Give me a break, Invicta and Tourbillion just doesn't sound right. Quote: Originally Posted by Sturhling_Don Would never pay over $1,000.00 for an Invicta. So count me out. Anything over $1,000.00, I would need to know that I could sell it for nearly what I paid for it. I totally agree, I would never buy, or trust Invicta to build a tourbillion, the two just don't go together. Especially if Invicta engraved the name Invicta on the side of the case, how tacky can a company get. cutter View Public Profile Send a private message to cutter
Find all posts by cutter Add cutter to Your Contacts #47 Yesterday, 11:37 AM PUCKSK8R Senior Member Master WatchGeek
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Quote: Originally Posted by bluloo I can't see how a 5k Swiss tourbillion would be possible. When presenting the S/O Tourby last night Jim noted the cheapest Swiss Made variation of this engine that he could find in the marketplace was approximately $42K. __________________ Class...Quelle heure est il? - Madame Eno (My 8th grade French Teacher) PUCKSK8R View Public Profile Send a private message to PUCKSK8R Find all posts by PUCKSK8R Add PUCKSK8R to Your Contacts #48 Yesterday, 12:54 PM EAS Senior Member Veteran Geek
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Quote: Originally Posted by timeman Just played back last night's show when Eyal said an Invicta Tourbillion Lupah Revolution was in the works, and would sell between $3,000, $4000, or $5,000. The question is will it have a Chinese or Swiss movement? Android and Stuhrling Original are selling Chinese made
Tourbillions for $700 to $900, so who would pay up to $5,000 for an Invicta Tourbillion Lupah Revolution with a Chinese movement? IMO the answer is very few people would, so I tend to believe the movement will be reported to be Swiss. If it's stated to be a Swiss movement, will it be considered a "Swiss Made" Tourbillion movement, or one with Swiss parts assembled outside of Switzerland? What do you think, Chinese or Swiss movement? EDIT: CONFIRMED CHINESE MOVEMENT BY EYAL, SEE POST #27. No way Swiss made Tourbillion...as Jim stated later..the cheapest one made is $42k...has to be Chinese...also two american companies are marketing one also. I expect a Chinese movt. but most likely assembled in a Swiss factory...just a guess on that..but $3000 to $4000 for and Invicta?? I do not see that happening..jmo EAS View Public Profile Send a private message to EAS Find all posts by EAS Add EAS to Your Contacts #49 Yesterday, 01:10 PM
jwin66 Senior Member Senior Geek
Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 346 Real Name: Jon
You also have to take into consideration that more and more high end watch makers are manufacturing there own in house movements which is one of the reasons why their prices are sky high. Invicta might be tweaking/modifying/regulating the movements before they are cased up and then run them through extensive testing...not sure how that would play out. The big question on my mind is if it is SWISS MADE would the movement also then have to be SWISS MADE too. Where would EYAL source these movements from ETA?? Who manufacturers TOURBILLON movements in Geneva for the express purpose of making them available for what ever watch company wanted to buy them. A completely SWISS MADE Tourby for 3 to 4k would be miraculous to say the least..but a Chinese tourby for ebauched or otherwise is a tad pricey considering the ones I have seen on the net even though the Chinese manufacturers form the likes of SEA-GULL are getting better all the time.
Jon PS I thought I recalled Eyal mentioning that he had made a SWISS TOURBY in the past?? anyone know the truth of this
jwin66 View Public Profile Send a private message to jwin66 Send email to jwin66 Find all posts by jwin66 Add jwin66 to Your Contacts #50 Yesterday, 02:57 PM noreve Junior Member New Geek
Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 18
Made in Asia There was a time when asian (Japanese or Chinese) products were inferior quality, but think again, After WW ll soldiers returning from the far east reported on Japanese cameras that were equivalent or even better than the german Leicas and Rolleiflexes. Look at Nikon now compared to a Leica. then consider what the Japanese and more recently the S. Koreans have have done to the automobile industry. Is there any reason to believe that asians wouldn't or couldn't be as successful manufacturing superior movements and tourbillons and if the price is right, all the better?
Sir watch Senior Member Veteran Geek
I think real handmade all Swiss Tourbillion Movement = $20k+ Invicta __________________
Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: New York City Posts: 728 Real Name: Guy
Sir watch View Public Profile Send a private message to Sir watch Find all posts by Sir watch Add Sir watch to Your Contacts #52 Yesterday, 03:26 PM
timeman Senior Member True WatchGeek
Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 5,806 Real Name: Jerry
Quote: Originally Posted by ChronoMATT Huh? Are you saying that Invicta have become members of the Swiss Federation? No, just follows the Swiss Federation specs of what determines a "Swiss Made" watch. They are not a member of the Swiss Federation. __________________
timeman View Public Profile Send a private message to timeman Find all posts by timeman Add timeman to Your Contacts #53 Yesterday, 03:38 PM Panchester Member Member Geek
Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 71
Quote: Originally Posted by Sturhling_Don Would never pay over $1,000.00 for an Invicta. So count me out. Anything over $1,000.00, I would need to know that I could sell it for nearly what I paid for it. Well, how about Speedway with DD ? You see them lot for sale ? At what price ? I bet you that people could get their money back on them. And yet, they are the "problematic" watches. I know I would not sell mine. Panchester View Public Profile Send a private message to Panchester Find all posts by Panchester Add Panchester to Your Contacts #54 Today, 10:20 AM
ChronoMATT Senior Member Super Geek
Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,000
Sorry...I missed the big announcement that Invicta is now following Swiss Federation specs sans the membership. Maybe you can enlighten me as to when and where it was made. Quote: Originally Posted by timeman No, just follows the Swiss Federation specs of what determines a "Swiss Made" watch. They are not a member of the Swiss Federation. __________________
ChronoMATT View Public Profile Send a private message to ChronoMATT Find all posts by ChronoMATT Add ChronoMATT to Your Contacts #55 Today, 11:54 AM
Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek
Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Northern CA Posts: 19,613 Real Name: Brad
Quote: Originally Posted by ChronoMATT Sorry...I missed the big announcement that Invicta is now following Swiss Federation specs sans the membership. Maybe you can enlighten me as to when and where it was made. Member or not, the Swiss Federation holds the USPTO registered trademark for "Swiss Made" as applied to watches. If Invicta, or any other non federation member, labels a watch accordingly, it must follow their requirements to do so. __________________
If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!
Flyback View Public Profile Send a private message to Flyback Find all posts by Flyback Add Flyback to Your Contacts #56 Today, 12:26 PM
ChronoMATT Senior Member Super Geek
Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,000
...or simply follow the US customs requirements for "Swiss Made" and "Swiss" labeling, but
you and I have been through this before to everyone's ennui. __________________
ChronoMATT View Public Profile Send a private message to ChronoMATT Find all posts by ChronoMATT Add ChronoMATT to Your Contacts #57 Today, 02:03 PM DESERTDOC Senior Member Senior Geek
Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Pawtucket, Rhode Island (God's Country ) Posts: 144 Real Name: Art
I don't know what the talk is all about, maybe I am stupid...... I have read at many places that most of Invictas are made in China anyway...... Reserves are supposedly real Swiss..... The Swiss have loosened their laws so much, that almost anythig can be called Swiss...... My jeweler says he can't even get Invicta parts on most Invicta watches..... But I got 56...... Personally 1000 is as high as I go for an Invicta..... Above 1000, I move to higher end watches, thats just me...... I love Invicta for what they are..... DESERTDOC View Public Profile Send a private message to DESERTDOC Find all posts by DESERTDOC Add DESERTDOC to Your Contacts #58 Today, 02:35 PM
Gwatchfanatic Senior Member Senior Geek
Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Brooklyn,New York Posts: 358 Real Name: formerly (gabrielgman2) Gabe
As far as the Tourbillon goes I don't think Invicta would put a Swiss Tourby in their watch because they are not a Top notch Prestigious brand like Breitling,Omega,Rolex and I personally feel no one will buy them especially with all that went on with their so called "RESERVE SWISS" Line. We all know a true Swiss Made Tourby will range anywhere from $100k-$500k. Depending on the Manufacturer. __________________