Sandstone

Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 518 Real Name: JayD

Stew Senior Member Veteran Geek

Proof would be in order. __________________ "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Anyone Who Threatens It"

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SeaVulture Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by oceanghost39 show me the proof,anyone can say anything,or write anything show proof or shut up!show me that a license gemoligist signes off on that with his name,where invicta can sue them.or shut up stop being a hen and stop rumors,ts not cool with out proof AMEN, Bro!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwikfix What proof would be adequate? And more importantly how would this proof personally affect you?

Perhaps the Gemologist can write a certification to this effect. Otherwise there is no point

bringing this subject up except to create a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WatchYaThink You don't consider a microscopic analysis of an actual Invicta dial by a geologist to be proof?

Not without documentation. Otherwise it is hearsay, and assumption. Put your name and reputatuion to it, like you've done to Jim, Eyal, and Michael. And don't hide your name.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rottieluv I applaud the investigational queries by qwikfix, WatchYaThink, timeman and other WGs who don't just accept as fact every aspect of a sales pitch.

No matter how innocently or innocuously information about the watches we buy is dispatched, the fact is many of us have come to realize that sometimes we are given incorrect information about these watches, and that is just wrong. ~ Denise What's wrong, is to bring a thing like this to light without evidence. You've planted a seed on this forum, and cannot back up your claim. Once again, you've outed yourselves and your intentions, without a backup.

Let's see if this really requires a response. It doesn't for me.

I did not buy a watch to see if what the salesman said was true.

I did not buy a watch to try to prove something that may not be true.

What a waste of money and time.

I read every post before mine, and I have much more to say.

I'll put it in terms that most here can understand.

If you cannot find something nice to talk about, take it somewhere else. __________________

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Yesterday, 09:33 PM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 603 Real Name: Bill

MathGeek Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by 50mm&up Ok, the OP is a WatchLord and so is the guy he got the watch from. Take this thread for what its worth, absolutely nothing. That site has it in for everthing WG's and Jim/Michael, Invicta and Shopnbc. Trust me.

What's sad is that the other site has been going on about this watch that some hater tore apart for weeks. They were even more upset that none of use had mentioned it.

This thread is a plant. It is meant to get us worked up so that the other site can post "OUR THREAD" and make fun of us.

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#204

Yesterday, 09:36 PM Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,680

CMORRISON Senior Member Super Geek

I dont own the watch, but when I initially saw the price I was confused.

When the Reserve Titanium Lupah launched the cost (around $1000 if I remember) was justified by the high end Seiko movement, Ti case and the dial (expensive and rare Sandstone or Meteorite) How did things change in less the a year to in price and availability to offer a watch for 1/10 the cost (albeit with a less expensive case and movement)

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SeaVulture Senior Member Super Geek

Perhaps they're operating with a less expensive cost, and a lower profit margin, so they can get you the watch you want.

Eyal's bee saying for a while, that he is trying to get the csts down, so you can have the value you want.

I was listening, and got some great deals. __________________

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SeaVulture View Public Profile Send a private message to SeaVulture Find all posts by SeaVulture Add SeaVulture to Your Contacts #206 Yesterday, 09:43 PM Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 15,530 Real Name: "Diamond Jim" Skelton

jskelton WatchGeeks Owner True WatchGeek

This thread has gotten very long, very quickly. I apologize for not being here earlier.

I don't know where each brand is sourcing their dial materials for the sandstone offerings, but I have never been able to see a difference between Invicta, Swiss Legend, or the Tourneau branded watches I have held. There could be 10 sources or only one... not sure.

As far as it being misunderstood and actually being Goldstone, I also cannot answer, although both examples posted in the first page do look very much like what we've been seeing in all of these watches.

Whatever the case, I will be asking as well. If I was given wrong information, I want to know about it.

Eyal has been notified about this topic and we should hopefully get a response for you soon.

I will also be talking to Lior since he too works with Sandstone dials, and to my eye, they

appear to be identical in every respect.

All I know is that various Sandstone dial watches have gone through my hands, Lior's hands, Eyal's hands, and Juan Lopez-Davies... and I don't know that any of us have had any reason to question their validity... but if there is a story here, we would all want to know about it. I don't mention Lior and Juan to connect them to this situation, but rather to exhibit that more than just Invicta uses this material, and I don't see a visual difference.

I have also shown the Sandstone chunk on-air a few times, and one side was polished (the rest was left natural), and that polished area of the large chunk looked identical to the dial in the watch I displayed... so again, no reason to believe anything except it would be authentic.

Let's not get carried away with accusations, conspiracy theories, or angry words until we have more information. I also believe we would benefit from actual documentation from this geologist to back up the 1st side of this story so that we have both sides under equal scrutiny with hopes that we can get a definite answer quickly, and the outcome is clear. __________________

Quote:

Living well is the best revenge. -George Herbert

Quote:

Originally Posted by charleswatts Your candor in the explanation reveals the nature of the relationship you have formed with your viewers.

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#207

Yesterday, 09:49 PM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: On the Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,672 Real Name: Charlie

CharlieB Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by jskelton This thread has gotten very long, very quickly. I apologize for not being here earlier.

I don't know where each brand is sourcing their dial materials for the sandstone offerings, but I have never been able to see a difference between Invicta, Swiss Legend, or the Tourneau branded watches I have held. There could be 10 sources or only one... not sure.

As far as it being misunderstood and actually being Goldstone, I also cannot answer, although both examples posted in the first page do look very much like what we've been seeing in all of these watches.

Whatever the case, I will be asking as well. If I was given wrong information, I want to know about it.

Eyal has been notified about this topic and we should hopefully get a response for you soon.

I will also be talking to Lior since he too works with Sandstone dials, and to my eye, they appear to be identical in every respect.

All I know is that various Sandstone dial watches have gone through my hands, Lior's hands, Eyal's hands, and Juan Lopez-Davies... and I don't know that any of us have had any reason to question their validity... but if there is a story here, we would all want to know about it. I don't mention Lior and Juan to connect them to this situation, but rather to exhibit that more than just Invicta uses this material, and I don't see a visual difference.

I have also shown the Sandstone chunk on-air a few times, and one side was polished (the rest was left natural), and that polished area of the large chunk looked identical to the dial in the watch I displayed... so again, no reason to believe anything except it would be authentic.

Let's not get carried away with accusations, conspiracy theories, or angry words until we

have more information. I also believe we would benefit from actual documentation from this geologist to back up the 1st side of this story so that we have both sides under equal scrutiny with hopes that we can get a definite answer quickly, and the outcome is clear.

A very fair, reasonable and informative response. __________________

Hot fun in the summertime!

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#208

Yesterday, 09:51 PM Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 15,530 Real Name: "Diamond Jim" Skelton

jskelton WatchGeeks Owner True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by MathGeek What's sad is that the other site has been going on about this watch that some hater tore apart for weeks. They were even more upset that none of use had mentioned it.

This thread is a plant. It is meant to get us worked up so that the other site can post "OUR THREAD" and make fun of us.

I too believe this to be true, at least at its Genesis....

But if it turns out that we needed to take a closer look here, then I am appreciative. I only hope that we're not taking all this time chasing our tails.

The OP of this topic (at the other forum) was someone I spent considerable time helping on a personal level, and as far as I know has quit smoking because of the time I spent helping him and providing info for him, so hopefully he remembers this and is actually trying to do something helpful rather than vindictive here...

Of course many of my haters got a lot out of me on a personal level before turning around and taking their turn piling on, so what's one more? I suppose I should have always stuck to my "job" and never helped anyone, or offered up any of my personal time for their benefit, and maybe their expectations would not have gotten so high.

But that's a separate issue really, and not on topic. __________________

Quote:

Living well is the best revenge. -George Herbert

Quote:

Originally Posted by charleswatts Your candor in the explanation reveals the nature of the relationship you have formed with your viewers.

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Add jskelton to Your Contacts #209 Yesterday, 09:51 PM

Genezilla Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Sunny Southern Cali Posts: 2,680 Real Name: Gene

Jim I'm glad you're on this and we all look forward to the facts. Thanks again.

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Yesterday, 09:52 PM Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: NEW YORK CITY Posts: 1,280 Real Name: V.C.

subaquaviva Senior Member Super Geek

Rick, don't bother getting all worked up over this issue. You'll only get agita and you can't win with some of these people. The truth will come out either way. The haters will continue to hate, but we can go on loving our collections. __________________

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#211 Yesterday, 09:56 PM Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,297

KOKONUTZ Senior Member Super Geek

Jim, Thanks for taking a leadership position on this issue. You have always conducted yourself to find the truth in any matter that evokes controversy, misunderstanding, inaccuracies, non truths, and the like

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Yesterday, 09:56 PM Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,755

MATTNATTI Senior Member Super Geek

Although I don't own and never will own a sandstone dial it is very interesting subject and it is also refreshing to see ownership of this forum to come in so even keeled and say that he

is going to look into it further.

Thanks jim __________________ Did you see that? Do they all got hedges like that? Do they?

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#213

Yesterday, 10:04 PM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: On the Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,672 Real Name: Charlie

CharlieB Senior Member True WatchGeek

There's no question in my mind that Jim and the whole Invicta team will tell us exactly what the reality is. __________________

Hot fun in the summertime!

CharlieB

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bentley85 Senior Member Super Geek

Just provide proof when making a claim like this. It is one thing to make a statement or call into question the sandstone being real but when you start making claims and saying they are true without physical proof you really are not accomplishing anything productive on this fourm! __________________ If it don't make dollaz...Then it don't make sense!

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Yesterday, 10:06 PM

Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: San Antonio,TX Posts: 1,743

Z4MC Senior Member Super Geek

Not the original topic but have both of Lior's Tungsten Sandstone dials and I LOVE them the blue and red (really a cinnamon brown) if I find they are not real sandstone I will ...keep my watches and love them anyway! But the SWI actually SAY sandstone on the dial so I will believe this to be true until told otherwise. __________________ The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. ...Alexis de Tocqueville after travelling to America 1834

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#216

Yesterday, 10:08 PM Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 15,530 Real Name: "Diamond Jim" Skelton

jskelton WatchGeeks Owner True WatchGeek

Just like I don't want to see people wantonly bashing Invicta, I don't want to see any more bashing of John for posting this.

I do hope that John will provide some documentation because this is a serious allegation, but no one should feel the need to go off on him. He has a right, like everyone else, to express himself on the forum as long as it stays within the rules. __________________

Quote:

Living well is the best revenge. -George Herbert

Quote:

Originally Posted by charleswatts Your candor in the explanation reveals the nature of the relationship you have formed with your viewers.

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#217 Yesterday, 10:13 PM Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,755

MATTNATTI Senior Member Super Geek

Yes and for the op to take it to a guy that "cannot document because the school won't let him" well in my opinion if you are going to make these type of claims then lay down the cash

and do the proper thing and take pics and take the dial to someone who can document the results. Don't just come in here with your flamethrower. __________________ Did you see that? Do they all got hedges like that? Do they?

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#218

Yesterday, 10:14 PM Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,297

KOKONUTZ Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieB There's no question in my mind that Jim and the whole Invicta team will tell us exactly what the reality is.

Agree & Thank you Charlie !!!

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#219

Yesterday, 10:15 PM

Genezilla Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Sunny Southern Cali Posts: 2,680 Real Name: Gene

Jim, I completely agree with you. In my first post I asked for documentation, pics, etc. as I tried to keep an open mind.

Of course some people think I have an open mind because I have holes in my head but that's a whole other issue.

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SeaVulture Senior Member Super Geek

My wife says My head's full of Rock.

Of course, it's Natural Sandstone.....

I know the difference, __________________

and it's real...

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Yesterday, 11:35 PM Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 397 Real Name: Dale

Bourbon City Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZRXBILL Exactly. Even the $5 coaster my drink is on is sandstone and it's way bigger than any dial.

Have you ever dropped one of you costers on a hard floor? It likely cracked in two.

BC

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#222 Today, 12:00 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: City Of Angels via The Windy City Posts: 223

ky Senior Member Senior Geek

Would you tell a family member that their spouse or significant other is cheating on them without providing that family member with some sort of legitimate additional proof???

Probably not!!!

The sandstone dial issue may or may not be true.

Without someone providing real proof, you may as well be just another devils advocate per say.

Like Tim Temple, "I'm Just Say-in"... __________________

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#223 Today, 12:31 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 76 Real Name: Sanjay

megabutler Member Member Geek

I'm not a hater, but I have always wondered why there is an over abundance of Invicta watches for sale. I can't wait to hear the explanation this time.

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Today, 12:54 AM Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 623

CoolHndLuc Senior Member Veteran Geek

It's all fun 'til someone loses and eye. __________________ What we got here is ..... failure to communicate.

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#225 Today, 01:33 AM Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Upcountry Maui Posts: 380 Real Name: Bruno

nevamine Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by WatchGeek4Life

Now what!!!

First we have the swiss made issue Then we have crystals instead of diamonds and now this!!! What is next, that our Meteorite dials are not real meteorite?

I would like to hear the explanation from Invicta on this one.

That would be my first thught and with Diamond Jim just last weekend say something to the affect that the or one of the only other companies to offer a meteorite material adds an aditional $4000.00 to the price tag of a watch allready costing several thousand dollars. Or Period as Diamond Jim says friekwently(LOL cause thats my Fathers redundant word)"But hear is my personal feelings about this" I am very VERY happy with every thing I have purchased with Invicta and as many of You, I feel as Jim S. is almost a friend(even if we never met) and love to watch him and learn all the little things that he has passion for, such as watch collecting and I will still buy watches from Invicta even if the materials are man made, and I mean to say"if" We deserve to know that what a company sais they are selling us is as real as they say it is,True, but at these prices I will buy them anyway!!!!!!! and be happy! __________________ Lets go fishin and Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 5,481 Real Name: Jerry

timeman Senior Member True WatchGeek

Thanks Jim for helping to get the truth out. That's all the customer wants. __________________

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#227 Today, 03:30 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 317

TeamInvicta WatchGeeks VIP Senior Geek

Guys I am looking into this with our dial supplier. Will get a reply and come back to you with information. Give me a chance to evaluate. The info I read here make sense too. So the question is, if the sandstone is natural or lab created. More to come.

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#228 Today, 03:35 AM Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Atmore, AL Posts: 3,502 Real Name: Rich

richhoff Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeamInvicta Guys I am looking into this with our dial supplier. Will get a reply and come back to you with information. Give me a chance to evaluate. The info I read here make sense too. Sk the question is, if the sandstone is natural or lab created. More to come Thanks Eyal. __________________ Corvettes & Watches

Two Expensive Hobbies.

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#229

Today, 03:47 AM Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NYC Posts: 150 Real Name: Irene

Peaceful75 Senior Member Senior Geek

Gotta get out to work, but I just wanted to stop in and say thanks Jim and Eyal for hopping onto the thread and checking this out for us all. I am wearing my Classique Pinnacle today, and will still enjoy staring at it no matter what the answer, but it would be great to have an official answer on this. I hope everyone has a wonderful day!

Irene __________________ Even a broken watch is right twice a day. With a 5-year warranty, I'd rather get it fixed!

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#230 Today, 03:50 AM Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: USA Posts: 122

baker.bjs Senior Member Senior Geek

My guess this is like leather and bonded leather. Both are leather. Only one is what we think of as 'natural' or 'real' leather and the other is 'man-made' using leather materials. Only my guess, but it makes sense to me. __________________

Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. ~Abraham Lincoln

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#231 Today, 03:57 AM Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,297

KOKONUTZ Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeamInvicta Guys I am looking into this with our dial supplier. Will get a reply and come back to you with information. Give me a chance to evaluate. The info I read here make sense too. Sk the question is, if the sandstone is natural or lab created. More to come

Thanks Eyal KOKONUTZ View Public Profile Send a private message to KOKONUTZ Find all posts by KOKONUTZ Add KOKONUTZ to Your Contacts #232

Today, 04:02 AM

Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 266 Real Name: Scott

ScooterB Senior Member Senior Geek

I am still trying to understand the purpose of the OP. A friend sends you a dial, movement and caseback and asks you to have it examined. Why didn't they just have someone themselves check it out? What was the reason that you and your friend would even be concerned with whether or not the dial is real or fake? I am not trying to bash the OP, I am naturally suspicious but to go to the extreme of taking the time to find a 'professional', what would make you suspicious? To me, it was as if the intent was to disprove a claim made by an organization. Do you do this with your other timepieces because you are not sure of their claims or anything else that you use or purchase? To me it just seems that someone has a pot that they feel needs stirring.

Next, the OP stated that the person from the college will not be permitted to put anything in writing. Most professors that I have encountered do so as much as they can outside of the 'job' to help support because just because they have the degree does not necessarily mean they all make six figures. They supplement their income by doing 'side projects'. Which means they are also self-employed. I am skeptical of this too.

Personally, if I were going to come on to a forum and stir the pot or start a post about a possible issue as this, I would certainly have my proof and be willing to provide it to substantiate my claim.

It is my hope that if this is in fact did take place and the dial is man-made that the OP will come back with some evidence of proof to back up the allegation.

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#233

Today, 04:09 AM

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 861

Franky5Angels Senior Member Veteran Geek

There are a lot of vendors at SHOP that are GEMOLOGISTS can't you show them a sample and get rheir opinion Paul Deasy has written many books on the subject __________________

Ask any racer. Any real racer. It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning's winning

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#234

Today, 04:11 AM Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Jupiter, Florida Posts: 442 Real Name: Elliot

yjmebs Senior Member Senior Geek

As I was reading this thread the only thing I was asking myself is: What if it's not Eyal/Invicta but the company that makes dials? If the dial was outsourced and supposed to be made of real sandstone but a synthetic was used to cut corners and costs that makes Invicta a "victim" as well as those who purchased. That said, everyone should chill until the powers that be get the "facts". Just be glad we're not talkiing about diamonds and very expensive time pieces.

I'm sure the answer will be out soon and a proper resolution if needed. Invicats always has made good on any issues (from my 1.5 yrs time as a watch geek). Fingers crossed for some positive news.

Just a thought, perhaps a thread/section where these concerns can be posted without them turning into 27 pages of ranting and hating before all the facts are in. Similar to the FS section where your post goes to a mod before being posted on the forum. Too many agitators and haters chime in and threads get locked. __________________

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Today, 04:25 AM

Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: New York City Posts: 261 Real Name: Guy

Sir watch Senior Member Senior Geek

Very good Jim and Eyal I like what I am reading here. __________________

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#236

Today, 04:51 AM Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Suburbs of Beantown Posts: 1,950 Real Name: Jeff

OmegaMeister Senior Member Super Geek

Props to Eyal and Jim for looking into this asap and getting things sorted.

Eyal does seem to have a genuine concern for his brand, and his customers. __________________

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#237

Today, 04:54 AM Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 601 Real Name: James

jade330i Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeamInvicta Guys I am looking into this with our dial supplier. Will get a reply and come back to you with information. Give me a chance to evaluate. The info I read here make sense too. Sk the question is, if the sandstone is natural or lab created. More to come Thanks Eyal....we look forward to your findings. __________________

More government is not the cure for the defect of less personal responsibility, it's an enabler; if people aren't accountable for their own actions then who is?"

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#238 Today, 05:01 AM Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 210

RunninOnEmpty Senior Member Senior Geek

Jim & Eyal will check into it, seriously?

Some of you applaud them for "checking into it?"

Call me crazy, but I think this is something that should have been discussed w/supplier prior to production.

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TeamInvicta WatchGeeks VIP Senior Geek

OK… so my day starts out with an alarming email being asked to log here and read this post.

So I did…. And I have to admit that all the information made some sense. So I posted about an hour ago that I would look into this further. And I have…. I called our sourcing manager in Asia, and asked for a conference call with our raw material supplier immediately. Mind you, its 9pm there…. But we just finished the conference call. The material we use for our dials is SANDSTONE. Sandstone raw material is sourced FROM THE EARTH. The ONLY thing that is man-made is the process of bonding the sandstone grain to a brick like raw bar, which then gets sent to our dial factory and gets cut to dials and polished. Our raw material supplier confirmed that the sandstone used in dials by other watch manufacturers or the use of sandstone in jewelry are made the same way as the dials we make. Again, I cannot speak for what every company does – I can only tell you what we do. I hope this helps, but please understand that I am in no way trying to dispute a geologist’s knowledge, I can only speak to how our dials are made.

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#240

Today, 05:21 AM

hootchlid

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Hillsboro,Oregon Posts: 460 Real Name: Dave

Senior Member Senior Geek

How can he provide proof?the only proof he could probally provide is a written letter from the "Geologist" who provided him the Opinion.Which would open up a lawsuit to him.He said in his post that it was the geologists "opinion" that it was "manmade".

Regardless for the price of the watch it is a nice watch.Just remember cavot emptor and you get what you pay for,period.not bashing anyone or anything.

Dave

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#241

Today, 05:21 AM Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,056 Real Name: Bruce

BRUCER Senior Member Super Geek

It's an issue for me if I'm paying a higher price point than I should be.Someone posted that the Sandstone dials were made by the same company that produces the crystals that are used on some of there dials; If so that would be a good indicator that we have been paying for something we are not getting

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#242

Today, 05:26 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 41

CrazyOzzy Member Member Geek

There's no value in this witch hunt.

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#243

Today, 05:30 AM

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 317

TeamInvicta WatchGeeks VIP Senior Geek

BTW, just to clarify: I wrote: "bonding the sandstone grain to a brick like raw bar."

The correct wording would be "bonding the sandstone grain INTO a brick like raw bar." The sandstone grains do NOT get bonded to something else, it just gets bonded ALL TOGETHER.

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#244 Today, 05:33 AM Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 310

aforlano Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeamInvicta BTW, just to clarify: I wrote: "bonding the sandstone grain to a brick like raw bar" The correct wording would be "bonding the sandstone grain INTO a brick like raw bar". The sandstone garins do NOT get bonded to something else, it just gets bonded ALL TOGETHER. So, to clarify, the Sandstone starts out like, well, sand, then is formed into a 'brick like raw bar', then cut and polished, correct?

Just trying to get a mental image here.

Thanks!

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X-James

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 307

Senior Member Senior Geek

Thanks to both Jim and Eyal for there responses so far but ...

When and if this found to be either a 100% "natural" sandstone mined from the ground, cut and then polished or that it is instead a "lab created" or even a lab enhanced rock of some sort then what will or might happen?

If its proven or verified to be "natural"l than this thread has been all for nothing but if its verified to be not 100% natural but "lab created" or enhanced then I hope ShopNBC will be will be offering returns on all sandstone dialed Invicta watches and giving full credit, to include both the shipping and return shipping charges. What ShopNBC does with Invicta is up to ShopNBC but these watches were sold by ShopNBC and not by Invicta. Yes they were sold with the help of Invicta employees and the information Invicta provided to ShopNBC but they were sold by ShopNBC. Ya know maybe Invicta could credit ShopNBC for the cost of 10 watches and ShopNBC's buyers could take those 10 watches and have them sent/given to 5 high-end jeweler's across the country and the other 5 given/sent to 5 geologists across the country. Not for fully detailed scientific analysis but for there expert opinions on if it is or is not "natural" sandstone. The findings/documents could be posted here on WatchGeeks to either prove is disprove this latest controversy.

Could be a very cheap way to get 10 opinions for ShopNBC and Invicta on whether there really is or is not an issue with these sandstone dials. Also it could and I mean nothing harsh, mean or nasty about this but it could work out well for ShopNBC in finding out if the information provided by Invicta can be fully trusted or not anymore. There was the whole Swiss issue, the diamond issue and now possibly this issue so maybe ShopNBC might want to take a serious look at this latest possible issue as well and begin to ... well I for one would just like to know if it is real or fake sandstone and at this point if I was offered a 100% credit to include the shipping and return postage with the one that I own with a sandstone dial and diamond accent chips it would be in the mail and on the way back in the tomorrow morning.

I'll just wait for the truth to be revealed but for now I'm kind of on the "lab created" side and

not the "natural" side of the controversy.

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#246

Today, 05:38 AM Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Kernersville,North Carolina Posts: 3,423 Real Name: Rick

STILL TICKIN Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Artificial or natural? Are you eating it or looking at it. If it looks good buy it and admire it. If you don't like it don't buy it.

Ok I guess just call it sandstone and gives it more of a generic title without the "natural ". Damn! How much more valueable is natural sandstone than created sandstone anyway! I'm out!

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#247

Today, 05:39 AM Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 193

foot Senior Member Senior Geek

foot View Public Profile Send a private message to foot Send email to foot Find all posts by foot Add foot to Your Contacts #248 Today, 05:47 AM

X-James

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 307

Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeamInvicta BTW, just to clarify: I wrote: "bonding the sandstone grain to a brick like raw bar" The correct wording would be "bonding the sandstone grain INTO a brick like raw bar". The sandstone garins do NOT get bonded to something else, it just gets bonded ALL TOGETHER. So if your able to clarify this a little more it might help me and maybe a few others understand what your saying.

This whole bonding thing ... do you mean or are you saying that these dials were not cut and then polished from a chunk of solid raw "natural" sandstone mined and taken from the ground to the cutter and then polished but they are instead grains of sandstone materials bonded together to make a big block to then be cut and polished into watch faces?

If its bonded together "grains" can we really say its "natural" sandstone when its bonded together in a clinical/laboratory/factory environment and not a fully 100% mother nature produced solid chunk of rock?

I'm remembering awhile back seeing/hearing statements and disclosures on ShopNBC about enhanced gemstones before and between jewelery shows. To me I always took the enhanced as not truly a "natural" stone but instead a clinical/laboratory/factory enhanced item. I may be off kilter with this but enhanced or bonded is not really "natural" at all is it?

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#249 Today, 05:55 AM

Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Live Free or Die NH Posts: 431

Knifemaker Senior Member Senior Geek

After this post I am thinking you are all crazy people!!! especially the ones thinking they need a refund. __________________

Stebbins Handmade Damascus Knives for the serious collectors

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#250

Today, 05:57 AM

chronoAlex Member Member Geek

Makes you wonder what is underneath the coating of those coated meteorite dials.........could be anything!

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Jersey Posts: 82

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 95 Real Name: Michael

Big Time Member Member Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwikfix What proof would be adequate? And more importantly how would this proof personally affect you?

Because he's skeptical & like the rest of us is simply asking for verification then he's not invited to play with the rest of us? Clearly it had enough of an impact on you that you proceeded to start this thread so why wouldn't it impact anyone else? Even for curiosity's sake.

Just take your ball & go home

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#252

Today, 06:06 AM Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Live Free or Die NH Posts: 431

Knifemaker Senior Member Senior Geek

if they did not coat meteor it would rust in a weeks time its Iron/nickel __________________

Stebbins Handmade Damascus Knives

for the serious collectors

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#253 Today, 06:10 AM

new2watches

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 180

Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-James So if your able to clarify this a little more it might help me and maybe a few others understand what your saying.

This whole bonding thing ... do you mean or are you saying that these dials were not cut and then polished from a chunk of solid raw "natural" sandstone mined and taken from the ground to the cutter and then polished but they are instead grains of sandstone materials bonded together to make a big block to then be cut and polished into watch faces?

If its bonded together "grains" can we really say its "natural" sandstone when its bonded together in a clinical/laboratory/factory environment and not a fully 100% mother nature produced solid chunk of rock?

I'm remembering awhile back seeing/hearing statements and disclosures on ShopNBC about enhanced gemstones before and between jewelery shows. To me I always took the enhanced as not truly a "natural" stone but instead a clinical/laboratory/factory enhanced item. I may be off kilter with this but enhanced or bonded is not really "natural" at all is it?

This process sounds like "fusion" to me. components but not "natural" itself.

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, again, cement is made up of natural

#254 Today, 06:13 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Jersey Posts: 82

chronoAlex Member Member Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knifemaker if they did not coat meteor it would rust in a weeks time its Iron/nickel I was talking about the black and gold types of plating. You now what I meant!

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#255 Today, 06:18 AM Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 1,237 Real Name: Allen

anbick Senior Member Super Geek

Let us turn down the "squelch", and get all the facts before we start making claims. Jim, thanks for taking the lead on this. __________________

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#256 Today, 06:25 AM Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: CT. Posts: 131

Bobbie Senior Member Senior Geek

I recently purchased the Invicta Men's Classique Quartz Sandstone Dial Stainless Steel Bracelet Watch - J179021 for my Girl. It is the only item in her life that brings a great big smile to her face and she wears it 24/7. I catch her admiring it constantly and she starts her first chemotherapy session today. Thank you Eyal for creating such a beautiful watch. __________________

My baby picture......

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#257

Today, 06:30 AM Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 95 Real Name: Michael

Big Time Member Member Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell3 NOW I'M NOT TAKING SIDES!!!!

But Rick can we disprove what he's saying?

Btw, is Rihanna any good in bed? I've heard conflicting reports Russ, I would think the burden of proof is on him.

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#258

Today, 06:38 AM Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,984

CHRONOKEN Senior Member Super Geek

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from the information we have now been given, the actual process of making these dials are as follows.

The Sandstone is ground into a loose material, then poured into a mold, along with a bonding agent.

Obviously this means that the sample we have been shown, and the explained process of cutting slices off a natural block of sandstone, and then polishing it into the glittery dial, is not correct.

If I'm reading everything right, this is how it plays out.

Even though it appears that there has been a conflict of information regarding the natural status of these dials, I do applaud Eyal for coming forward with the true process of how these dials come to be. I would hope that this matter will help to change things on future

product descriptions, as it's clear that there are those, including myself that are truly Watchgeeks in the pure sense of the word, and that we are very much interested in everything that goes into the watches we buy, from the materials used, their origins, and the manufacturing process of same. Some people buy watches purely for looks, but others buy based on the information we are given, and all we want, and expect is to receive that which is advertised, nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks, Ken..

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Today, 06:42 AM

curiousgeorge

Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Mpls Posts: 2,649 Real Name: George

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by curiousgeorge Considering sandstone is used often for silica to make glass this isn't remotely surprising.

Technically if they used sandstone to make the glass dial, dyed it which it is since there really isn't natural blue sandstone. Then they can say they used natural sandstone to make the dial. Sandstone isn't remotely hard to find, is used in building and paving constantly.

To be honest it's not remotely valuable. At all. Unbelievably plentiful. Much like lab-created rubies and sapphires you can actually make gems with heat in a lab. This is probably the same concept and a technicality which they can say it is natural sandstone. They used the sandstone to make glass ornaments basically.

I posted this very early in the thread and seems to be pretty close to what Eyal has said.

Invicta wasn't trying to sneak one by people, this is how that product is made. Thanks to Eyal and Jim for clarifying things. I own a Invicta Sandstone, and Swiss Legend Sandstone, and they look pretty much the same, and this explanation from Eyal is about what I expected and I'm satisfied with the watches and the explanation. Thanks.

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Today, 06:43 AM

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Central VA. Blue Ridge MTNS. Posts: 3,100 Real Name: Lynn

bugduck Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobbie I recently purchased the Invicta Men's Classique Quartz Sandstone Dial Stainless Steel Bracelet Watch - J179021 for my Girl. It is the only item in her life that brings a great big smile to her face and she wears it 24/7. I catch her admiring it constantly and she starts her first chemotherapy session today. Thank you Eyal for creating such a beautiful watch.

Just finished 6 Months Chemo. Praying the Best for your Girl !

God's Speed INDEED !

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#261

Today, 06:46 AM Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 1,742 Real Name: Mark

imawatchgeek Senior Member Super Geek

Wow, 11 pages of pure testosterone!! Why is it that people get so uptight about a thread that get started which has no merit till the truth is told??? It would seem that every once in a while since i've been on this WG forum, someone comes up with a story and starts this snowball effect of nonsense, instead of the true meaning of this site? The love of watches, how they work, who got "geeked" look what I picked up, made a trade, got this from so and so, to "look what I found out, Invicta makes fake leather straps, diamonds, the whole watch is made in china or japan", or what have you... The fact of the matter is, even if none of it is true at all, all it takes is for someone to come on to the forum and put up things like what started this whole thing... Lets get back to being WatchGeeks, loving the watches, giving

each other love, and leave all the technical stuff to the professionals. __________________

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#262

Today, 06:46 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: THA BRONX Posts: 382

sunaru Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHRONOKEN Correct me if I'm wrong, but from the information we have now been given, the actual process of making these dials are as follows.

The Sandstone is ground into a loose material, then poured into a mold, along with a bonding agent.

Obviously this means that the sample we have been shown, and the explained process of cutting slices off a natural block of sandstone, and then polishing it into the glittery dial, is not correct.

If I'm reading everything right, this is how it plays out. thats what i got from it which means it's in fact not natural, but processed..

sunaru

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Today, 06:48 AM Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Boston Posts: 39

rhinckley Member Member Geek sandstone real or fake

after all the problems with swiss made the dd problem the diamond not diamond watches now the sandstone not real sandstone possible problem i agree with the person who said real metorite or not who knows and for those who say no big deal its a huge deal would you say so what if you ordered a rolex and they sent you a timex invicta has become a huge company at least in watch production ther is no reason they do not have people who are checking there products to be sure the are real and i mean constantly not just once to me and i think all the geeks on this forum trust iwill say it again trust is everything i was looking forward to the 7751 metorite but now i have to really think about it i want to believe in invicta but its starting to look like a snake and act like a snske i hope its just a rope rich

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#264 Today, 06:49 AM Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: CT. Posts: 131

Bobbie Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by bugduck just finished 6 months chemo. Praying the best for your girl !

God's speed indeed !

thank you !! __________________

My baby picture......

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50mm&up Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by imawatchgeek Wow, 11 pages of pure testosterone!! Why is it that people get so uptight about a thread that get started which has no merit till the truth is told??? It would seem that every once in a while since i've been on this WG forum, someone comes up with a story and starts this snowball effect of nonsense, instead of the true meaning of this site? The love of watches, how they work, who got "geeked" look what I picked up, made a trade, got this from so and so, to "look what I found out, Invicta makes fake leather straps, diamonds, the whole watch is made in china or japan", or what have you... The fact of the matter is, even if none of it is true at all, all it takes is for someone to come on to the forum and put up things like what started this whole thing... Lets get back to being WatchGeeks, loving the watches, giving each other love, and leave all the technical stuff to the professionals.

Mark, this is how some people get their jollies around here. Dropping bombs. And the people that bought it are feeling jilted because they think it may be true. Look at all the other "incidents" Invicta and we have been through lately. I'm out of this, good luck if you bought a sandstone dial. __________________

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Today, 06:52 AM Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 1,742 Real Name: Mark

imawatchgeek Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by 50mm&up Dude, i'm a handsome mofo. You can't see that? I get more ass than a toilet seat.

LMFBO!!! __________________

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#267 Today, 06:57 AM

BRUCER

Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,056 Real Name: Bruce

Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by WatchGeek4Life

Amen Debbie, and I applaud them also. We all like Invicta watches, but we want the truth about the products we are spending our money on. Deceit is not the way to do business. +1...Bottom line is,you should get what you paid for!!!!!!!!

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#268 Today, 07:08 AM Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 1,398

Dave B Senior Member Super Geek

Well... I don't wish to add insult to anything. But when I had my Invicta deep blue sandstone dial watch SS bracelet sized by a licensed, certified gemologist, he happened to be wearing his magnifier around his neck. He said, "No this is not sandstone. But it is a nice watch." I still like the watch. Twinkles like the night sky. But I have to take my friend by his word and experience. The watch is a keeper, though. __________________

"Don't sweat the small stuff?!? With watches, it's ALL about tiny, important small stuff."

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Today, 07:15 AM

Hotspur Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Here - now Posts: 1,365 Real Name: William (Bill)

Official answer a little ambiguous. Will be happy to donate some $ toward purchasing an Invicta "sandstone" dial watch and having the dial lab analyzed with results to be posted in this forum. After all, how much can it cost? Don't have to take anyone's word on it then. __________________

They all wound - the last one kills (inscribed below a 15th century clock) Hotspur View Public Profile Send a private message to Hotspur Find all posts by Hotspur Add Hotspur to Your Contacts

#270

Today, 07:16 AM

mrblue

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,459

Senior Member Super Geek

The dials are real sandstone. Most likely, the grains are combined with a bonding agent.

The reason this is done is because solid pieces of sandstone are probably rare to find .. since it is a natural material, it probably is mined in sizes from grains to pebbles to rocks.

To cut from a solid rock piece would be at great expense and make the watche unaffordable to us ( only affordable to a few w/lots of money ) .. So, I am beginning to sense that varying sizes of sandstone material are basically crushed together and bonded into a brick .. the brick is cut into dials ... The real question 'may be' ... what percentage of

these bricks is sandstone and what percentage is the bonding agent ?????

Perhaps, as time passes, we will learn this, but I am beginning to think that Eyal is being truthful as he 'always' tries to be, and that in balancing out cost of sale to Invicta and other watch companies that the manufactureres came up with this approach so that these dials could be put into timpieces at an afforable level for sale !!!!!!!

I hope some of you agree. I have a background in masonry and these issues always surface when dealing with the natural world, cost of production and processes ....

BOTTOM LINE: .... It is natural sandstone if the percentage of the sandstone used is high in the brick itself. Perhaps, it may be 97 percent sandstone w/3 percent bonding agent .. or whatever, but the 'key' is that natural sandstone, as per the mfg and Eyal ......... is being used.

Best Always, Mr Blue

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#271

Today, 07:22 AM

chronoAlex

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Jersey Posts: 82

Member Member Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrblue The dials are real sandstone. Most likely, the grains are combined with a bonding agent.

The reason this is done is because solid pieces of sandstone are probably rare to find .. since it is a natural material, it probably is mined in sizes from grains to pebbles to rocks.

To cut from a solid rock piece would be at great expense and make the watche unaffordable to us ( only affordable to a few w/lots of money ) .. So, I am beginning to sense that varying sizes of sandstone material are basically crushed together and bonded into a brick .. the brick is cut into dials ... The real question 'may be' ... what percentage of these bricks is sandstone and what percentage is the bonding agent ?????

Perhaps, as time passes, we will learn this, but I am beginning to think that Eyal is being truthful as he 'always' tries to be, and that in balancing out cost of sale to Invicta and other watch companies that the manufactureres came up with this approach so that these dials could be put into timpieces at an afforable level for sale !!!!!!!

I hope some of you agree. I have a background in masonry and these issues always surface when dealing with the natural world, cost of production and processes ....

BOTTOM LINE: .... It is natural sandstone if the percentage of the sandstone used is high in the brick itself. Perhaps, it may be 97 percent sandstone w/3 percent bonding agent .. or whatever, but the 'key' is that natural sandstone, as per the mfg and Eyal ......... is being used.

Best Always, Mr Blue Sounds to me like this is whats happening......I think you hit the nail on the head!

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Today, 07:26 AM Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,459

mrblue Senior Member Super Geek

Thankyou ChronoAlex .... this requires experts in masonry, ya know, the type that build our nation .. ha,ha .. not only a gemologist's document ( that would be just one aspect of this debate ) ..... Blue

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#273 Today, 07:26 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: THA BRONX Posts: 382

sunaru Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave B Well... I don't wish to add insult to anything. But when I had my Invicta deep blue sandstone dial watch SS bracelet sized by a licensed, certified gemologist, he happened to be wearing his magnifier around his neck. He said, "No this is not sandstone. But it is a nice watch." I still like the watch. Twinkles like the night sky. But I have to take my friend by his word and experience. The watch is a keeper, though.

Do you think that he would put that in writing for you? thing is your a respected member around here and you have also been told the sandstone is not real.. so that makes one wonder will people ignore your statement or question your motives as well...

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#274 Today, 07:29 AM Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,474 Real Name: Rob

TM Maker Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaMeister Props to Eyal and Jim for looking into this asap and getting things sorted.

Eyal does seem to have a genuine concern for his brand, and his customers.

Yes. Let's give them a chance to delve into this properly. It just seems that we're all so willing to pounce on a brand we all buy before all of the evidence is in.

I know this is a huge concern but let's wait for scientifically proven evidence.

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#275

Today, 07:31 AM

chronoAlex

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: New Jersey Posts: 82

Member Member Geek

sandstone in natural state

If what Eyal says is true can we say that indeed it is real sandstone............but not in its natural state ???????

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: THA BRONX Posts: 382

sunaru Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrblue The dials are real sandstone. Most likely, the grains are combined with a bonding agent.

The reason this is done is because solid pieces of sandstone are probably rare to find .. since it is a natural material, it probably is mined in sizes from grains to pebbles to rocks.

To cut from a solid rock piece would be at great expense and make the watche unaffordable to us ( only affordable to a few w/lots of money ) .. So, I am beginning to sense that varying sizes of sandstone material are basically crushed together and bonded into a brick .. the brick is cut into dials ... The real question 'may be' ... what percentage of these bricks is sandstone and what percentage is the bonding agent ?????

Perhaps, as time passes, we will learn this, but I am beginning to think that Eyal is being truthful as he 'always' tries to be, and that in balancing out cost of sale to Invicta and other watch companies that the manufactureres came up with this approach so that these dials could be put into timpieces at an afforable level for sale !!!!!!!

I hope some of you agree. I have a background in masonry and these issues always surface when dealing with the natural world, cost of production and processes ....

BOTTOM LINE: .... It is natural sandstone if the percentage of the sandstone used is high in the brick itself. Perhaps, it may be 97 percent sandstone w/3 percent bonding agent .. or whatever, but the 'key' is that natural sandstone, as per the mfg and Eyal ......... is being used.

Best Always, Mr Blue

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave B Well... I don't wish to add insult to anything. But when I had my Invicta deep blue sandstone dial watch SS bracelet sized by a licensed, certified gemologist, he happened to be wearing his magnifier around his neck. He said, "No this is not sandstone. But it is a nice watch." I still like the watch. Twinkles like the night sky. But I have to take my friend by his word and experience. The watch is a keeper, though. my point exactly MB posted after you and completly ingnored your statement.. if you have the chance could you please see if you could get the info documented in writing for all here to see? this would put an end to all the speculation and spin..

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Today, 07:34 AM Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 352 Real Name: Trae

kenshabby Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by MATTNATTI Yes and for the op to take it to a guy that "cannot document because the school won't let him" well in my opinion if you are going to make these type of claims then lay down the cash and do the proper thing and take pics and take the dial to someone who can document the results. Don't just come in here with your flamethrower.

Here here! Perhaps there was a way to post this topic that wasn't as caustic...

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#278

Today, 07:35 AM

mrblue

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,460

Senior Member Super Geek

Not to tip my own hat ( I have a collection of those too ), if one reads the entirety of the thread, I believe the issues have been clarified .. yet, I'm certain more will skip over the full thread and simply add posts which are counter productive at this point in time or muddled in the light of what 'we' have all discussed and learned to be true ....

As I posted earlier : The Truth Is The Light ( It's already shining bright ). It has no shadow, but one lie is shadowed by another ...

Blue .. so, " stay cool and enjoy the dual " ................................ It's never ending !!

Gotta love the forum. You guys are great !! ............... just an opinion of course.

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Today, 07:36 AM Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Central Florida Posts: 274

jessismith Senior Member Senior Geek

Jim, You make me

you!!! Thank you for your level-headedness and to-the-pointness.

The process as Eyal explains seems reasonable to me considering the natural material is essentially SAND which is a SEDIMENT and would not be durable enough even for slicing and polishing on a high level without the stabilization.

Interesting fact this reminds me of: Did you know that in most of your larger restaurants' cobb salads, the hardboiled eggs are not usually eggs in their original round form, but reconstituted egg LOGS packaged in a plastic roll. They do this to make it easily sliceable. They're still eggs and you eat them happily. They don't put 'made from reconstituted egg logs' on the menu. Would you consider

them no longer natural or worthy of eating because they had been through some processing?

Too much of a stretch? How about sausage, lunch meat, bologna, etc. - also made from machine-ground parts and BINDERS stuffed into a log. Are these not natural either? Many processed foods are allowed to be considered all-natural, even if they are made from processed flour, butter, sugar and baked, boiled, fried, sliced, shredded or whatever it took to take their final form.

I'm just sayin', sometimes things in today's manufactured world are not straight from their original form, but they are still what they are. Their makers don't have to disclose the exact details of their processing.

In any case, I would think the Shop should definitely not use the polished rock chunk example anymore. __________________ It's funny to compare - Then and Now! My old Caravelle by Bulova. My new SANIII MOP.

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#280

Today, 07:37 AM

Hotspur Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Here - now Posts: 1,365 Real Name: William (Bill)

Originally Posted by Hotspur Official answer a little ambiguous. Will be happy to donate some $ toward purchasing an Invicta "sandstone" dial watch and having the dial lab analyzed with results to be posted in this forum. After all, how much can it cost? Don't have to take anyone's word on it then.

Will say it again. __________________

They all wound - the last one kills (inscribed below a 15th century clock) Hotspur View Public Profile Send a private message to Hotspur Find all posts by Hotspur Add Hotspur to Your Contacts #281

Today, 07:37 AM

curiousgeorge Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Mpls Posts: 2,649 Real Name: George

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrblue Not to tip my own hat ( I have a collection of those too ), if one reads the entirety of the thread, I believe the issues have been clarified .. yet, I'm certain more will skip over the full thread and simply add posts which are counter productive at this point in time or muddled in the light of what 'we' have all discussed and learned to be true ....

As I posted earlier : The Truth Is The Light ( It's already shining bright ). It has no shadow, but one lie is shadowed by another ...

Blue .. so, " stay cool and enjoy the dual " ................................ It's never ending !!

Gotta love the forum. You guys are great !! ............... just an opinion of course.

Not to tip my own hat but I had already pretty much described the process to make this on the fourth page of the thread. about 10 pages ago.

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#282

Today, 07:38 AM

rottieluv

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Zellwood, FL (near Orlando) Posts: 1,639 Real Name: Denise

Senior Member Super Geek

Well, now we know the truth. I appreciate Eyal Lalo's response, but it seems there is a bit of a disconnect somewhere when Eyal didn't know until now what the fabrication of the sandstone is.

Maybe there will be some good out of this, and that would be that there will be more factual info given when these watches are presented, just as when the Shop presents the stabilized turquoise or other treated stones. I watch a lot of the jewelry shows, and appreciate it when there is full disclosure and explanation of the processes used in stone treatment, lab creation and fabrication of simulants.

I think this was a very constructive thread, except when it veered off a few times. ~ Denise

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#283 Today, 07:43 AM

mrblue

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,460

Senior Member Super Geek

Right CGeorge .... exactly .... and those seemingly convoluted posts continue because ' your thread, and those of JS, Eyal and others are skipped over and people oftimes just post thoughts off the cuff ...... in it's totality, the thread makes sense and clarifies the issues ....... I agree w/you totally .. Blue

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Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: BIG NYC Posts: 1,065 Real Name: Kevin

pett2000 Senior Member Super Geek

OK I waited 11 pages or so to add my 2 cents...............isn't there like some inspector general, federal regulator that inspects watches (Or jewelry) to make sure that "Things" are what they say they are?

I mean like diamonds may really be diamonds but are they banned "Conflict" diamonds, you know stuff like that!

We have food regulators, auto regulators, home regulators..........regulators for just about everything and............somebody could build a product, take it to market and it be partial or whole just a complete flam!

Not that it's not being done ALL OVER, but those are mostly in the shadows.......this is a product in the main stream, for Christ sake you have celebs now wearing them..........that just cause's ppl to dig deeper into your rectum, and if its not clean..............well you know the rest! (There's kah-kah every where) besides the fact that you then become a tainted product............!

If (Eyal) is clean then this is the storm B4 the clearing................if not, then as just one of many proud INVICTA owners I give you this Lil bit of advise. As I see it you sir are on the door step of greatness with your company and many of us can see that,.........integerty is a dying commodity these day's and in the long run will be worth more (Later) than the added $$ made today!

Forever your supporter K. Pettaway __________________ But you & me, we know we got nothing............but time.

And you know................time won't give me time.............. pett2000 View Public Profile Send a private message to pett2000 Send email to pett2000 Find all posts by pett2000 Add pett2000 to Your Contacts #285

Today, 07:46 AM

curiousgeorge

Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Mpls Posts: 2,649 Real Name: George

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrblue Right CGeorge .... exactly .... and those seemingly convoluted posts continue because ' your thread, and those of JS, Eyal and others are skipped over and people oftimes just post thoughts off the cuff ...... in it's totality, the thread makes sense and clarifies the issues ....... I agree w/you totally .. Blue I'm with you on this one!!!

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#286

Today, 07:47 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: THA BRONX Posts: 382

sunaru Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by jessismith Jim, You make me

you!!! Thank you for your level-headedness and to-the-pointness.

The process as Eyal explains seems reasonable to me considering the natural material is essentially SAND which is a SEDIMENT and would not be durable enough even for slicing and polishing on a high level without the stabilization.

Interesting fact this reminds me of: Did you know that in most of your larger restaurants' cobb salads, the hardboiled eggs are not usually eggs in their original round form, but reconstituted egg LOGS packaged in a plastic roll. They do this to make it easily sliceable. They're still eggs and you eat them happily. They don't put 'made from reconstituted egg logs' on the menu. Would you

consider them no longer natural or worthy of eating because they had been through some processing?

Too much of a stretch? How about sausage, lunch meat, bologna, etc. - also made from machine-ground parts and BINDERS stuffed into a log. Are these not natural either? Many processed foods are allowed to be considered all-natural, even if they are made from processed flour, butter, sugar and baked, boiled, fried, sliced, shredded or whatever it took to take their final form.

I'm just sayin', sometimes things in today's manufactured world are not straight from their original form, but they are still what they are. Their makers don't have to disclose the exact details of their processing.

In any case, I would think the Shop should definitely not use the polished rock chunk example anymore. i fully understand what you are saying here.. thing is customers where not told that the sandstone was processed.. they were infact told it was natural..

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#287

Today, 07:49 AM

mrblue

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,460

Senior Member Super Geek

Sunaru .. I think my first post on this page tells you about ' the facts ' of manufacturing using grains, pebbles and rocks ....... what we need to know is simple, and, hopefully will satisfy your inquiries .. " what percentage of the brick is the natural sandstone ? " .. if the bonding agent used is simply like a glue, then almost all of the brick 'is' natural sandstone crushed from varying sizes of the natural material and put into brick form to be easily cut.

This eliminates waste, is cost effective in the tooling and mfg process, and can be delivered to 'all ' watch makers for a price which enabled 'you' to buy one ..

If Eyal feels like it, and it is his business ( in my view he has answered the question ), then he will find out what percentage is natural sandstone and what percentage is the bonding agent. My sense is that almost all of the brick is the natural material because bonding agents are useless when the percentage is too high .. the look of the finished material would not even closely appear to be 100 percent sandstone .. get it ?

MB

mrblue

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#288

Today, 07:52 AM Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Moreno Valley, CA. Posts: 1,268 Real Name: Shawn

samsonswatch Senior Member Super Geek

I have stayed out of the one because this is truly not my expertise. What I will say is that I love the look of the sandstone dials. All my watches were purchased to look good on my wrist. When some more sandstone dials watches come up for sale I will be in line. More than likely now because of this controversy I will be able to find some sandstone dial watches at a very good discount. My pocket book is open and ready. __________________

Collecting Watches Until We Meet The True Time Keeper...

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Today, 07:54 AM

Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 1,012

m*u*g* Senior Member Super Geek

all this fuss over an invicta watch dial..........unbelievable......

Just call it Invictastone and raise the price. Someone will buy it. __________________ Scheyertar says...."The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog, Sir! "....

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Today, 07:56 AM Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Macomb, MI Posts: 24 Real Name: Kevin

Pass_It_Forward Junior Member New Geek

Thank you Eyal for your quick and concerned response to the interests of your customers.

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#291

Today, 07:57 AM

new2watches

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 180

Senior Member Senior Geek

The problem is in the fact that MOST other watch brands call the material aventurine glass, including Omega, Blu, Ulysse, etc.

The new timepiece made by Lederer for ladies is called Blu Lady Aventurine. The new watch is a real masterpiece of horology that combines outstanding design with precise complicated movement of the highest quality.

The Blu Lady Aventurine watch is housed by a 36-mm steel case decorated with the finest diamonds. The case is equipped with sapphire crystal to protect the unique beautiful dial.

The dial reminds you of the sky of stars: made of dark blue aventurine it reflects the sparkle of diamonds and created the effect of the shining night sky. Instead of traditional hands the time is indicated with the help or a rotating disk with a tiny sapphire marker. The same rotating disk is decorated with diamonds that act as minute markers.

The Blu Lady Aventurine accommodates an automatic calibre Blu-Orbit (basic ETA 2892A2) with 27 jewels. The movement oscillates at 28,800 bph and features an exclusive module of indicating mechanism.

The new Blu watch goes together with a crocodile leather strap equipped with folding clasp.

The above is from http://www.timebooth.com/wordpress/2009/03/09/4967.html

And this from Ulysse Nardin Circus Minute Repeater Ulysse Nardin takes great pride in announcing an additional achievement in time-keeping art: the Circus Aventurine.

A richly animated circus scene decorates a genuine aventurine dial. Each of the six figures is hand-carved in 18 ct gold. When the minute repeater lever is activated, the monkey begins interfering in the ballgame of the clown; this movement indicates the hour chiming. The trainer with the whip reaches out to the tiger, indicating the quarters. The tiger stretches its paw, indicating the minutes. The bear bows in front of the ballet dancer while the chiming mechanism is activated.

Limited Edition of 30 pieces.

Ref. Nr. 740-88 Diameter 42 mm Case 18 ct white gold Dial Aventurine Power-reserve Approx. 48 hours Winding Manual wind Water-resistant 30 meters Crystal Sapphire crystals Strap Alligator leather strap Buckle type Folding clasp http://www.ulysse-nardin.ch/en/swiss..._Repeater.html Bottom line is these are glass dials, are we really to believe that Invicta is doing something different to these dial that Blu and Ulysse are not?

Especially when Invictas supplier told Eyal that these dial all all made the same way.

Hey glass is made from silica which is from sand which is from stone so I guess you could call it "sandstone" and technically be correct. It is not sourced from the earth like it appears in the dials though, it is manufactured just like a concrete sidewalk from "natural" materials.

Let's just call it what it is, that way there would be no controversy and we would not have threads like these.

JMO

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#292

Today, 07:58 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Denver Posts: 697 Real Name: John

qwikfix Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwikfix You are correct about the sandstone analysis. When this material is viewed under a microscope you can clearly see well defined patterns of triangles, and octogons. The problem is that under a microscope you can see the cross section of these shapes and they are essentially one dimensional. You would expect some if not most of these particles would be three dimensional but they are not. As for the cement there is none, just these one dimensional specs floating in clear glass.

I did talk with the geologist again this morning concerning recent explanations and the above post still holds true the structures that are floating would not be one dimensional under the microscope and yet they are. I was contemplating releasing his name in an effort to quell some of the rhetoric but he has asked me not to and I will abide by his wishes. I do have his permission to release his contact info to Jim so that he may follow up if he wishes.

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bioya58 Senior Member Veteran Geek

For me this is a moot point...because the sandstone dial pro diver Reserve I ordered off the sunday run is never coming to me. Invicta sent me a russian diver insteaD which I promptly sent back for the watch I was billed for. Ten phone calls and three e-mails later I can now report that I will not be getting my sandstone(?) dial watch after all, and now I am still waiting for $160.00 credit to be issued to my card. I am not at all impressed with Invicta and my invicta collection will not grow but it will shrink. BTW I contacted everybody but the CEO in trying to resolve this matter and was patient for two weeks...NO MORE!

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#294 Today, 08:03 AM Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 1,012

m*u*g* Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by new2watches it is manufactured just like a concrete sidewalk from "natural" materials.

JMO A silly note, but thank you for calling it concrete and not cement.....a pet peve of mine.

Hey Michael, consider this a POWER POST since I didn't add anything constructive to the topic. Seems pointless anyway.

, __________________ Scheyertar says...."The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog, Sir! "....

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#295

Today, 08:04 AM

Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Conyers,GA Posts: 2,854 Real Name: Brian

bdgrewe74 Senior Member Master WatchGeek

I am always late to the party.. but all I can say is I am waiting silently for an update from Jim after he speaks to Eyal........ __________________ A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure.

- Segal's Law bdgrewe74 -AKA -Brian

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Today, 08:05 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: 'Da Region-NW Indiana Posts: 1,561

toyaddict007 Senior Member Super Geek

I wanna read this when I'm awake, so...bump

__________________ A nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse...

This is how I roll...in my own mind...

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#297 Today, 08:07 AM

mrblue

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,460

Senior Member Super Geek

quikfix .. as stated in a recent post ... this analysis as you demand it will only be complete when a panel of experts convenes, gemology, manufacturers, and experts in natural stone masonry, and arbitrators all get together ... why don't you arrange it at your expense !! .................. I'm serious. I think most of us are pleased with the thread and it's clarification of these issues .. if you wish to continue, start the process ..

Mr Blue

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#298

Today, 08:10 AM

Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Central Florida Posts: 274

jessismith Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunaru i fully understand what you are saying here.. thing is customers where not told that the sandstone was processed.. they were infact told it was natural..

My point is, does processing negate natural-ness? Maybe not, in the example of processed foods still being considered "natural," and the lack of need for processing procedures being disclosed. I agree the polished chunk display is mis-leading though, and hope they will stop doing that now. __________________ It's funny to compare - Then and Now! My old Caravelle by Bulova. My new SANIII MOP.

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#299

Today, 08:10 AM

Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,259 Real Name: Michael

mdhorner Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdgrewe74 I am always late to the party.. but all I can say is I am waiting silently for an update from Jim after he speaks to Eyal........ look a couple pages back.. Eyal explained everything. __________________

A flush always beats a straight unless the guy with the straight carries a gun. Norman Chad

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#300

Today, 08:11 AM

X-James Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 307

Originally Posted by jessismith I'm just sayin', sometimes things in today's manufactured world are not straight from their original form, but they are still what they are. Their makers don't have to disclose the exact details of their processing.

In any case, I would think the Shop should definitely not use the polished rock chunk example anymore.

Here is something to ponder upon in regards to your manufactured world reference ...

The most important person in the entire world to you passes away and you go to purchase a grave marker for them. The stone mason tells you it is natural Italian marble. You come to find out later that what was nothing more than marble dust, marble grains and marble chips collected from who knows where but it was manufactured together to look like and you thought you bought natural marble.

Now how exactly would you feel at this point thinking you had purchased natural solid marble, since that is what was shown to you and that is what you were told it was when you made your buying decision but in reality you bought dust, grains and chips glued bonded together with some sort of adhesive agent to be made to look like what it was really supposed to be?

Just how would you feel but lets remember that "sometimes things in today's manufactured world are not straight from their original form, but they are still what they are" but not exactly what you were told they were.

Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 1,176

delo149 Senior Member Super Geek

__________________

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#302

Today, 08:16 AM

mrblue

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,460

Senior Member Super Geek

X-James ... I'd be pleased as punch that I didn't spend Michaelangelogian prices for a solid carved piece of marble by hand at 10,000.00 and that I only spent 5-700.00 bucks to bury my loved one ..... perhaps, analogous to watches, eh ? ..

Blue

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#303 Today, 08:16 AM Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Suburbs of Beantown Posts: 1,950 Real Name: Jeff

OmegaMeister Senior Member Super Geek

Just to keep this thread rolling....

I forgot to add that I really dislike the look of sandstone,meteorite,etc on watch dials. It's too " Vegas" for me. __________________

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jessismith Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-James Here is something to ponder upon in regards to your manufactured world reference ...

The most important person in the entire world to you passes away and you go to purchase a grave marker for them. The stone mason tells you it is natural Italian marble. You come to find out later that what was nothing more than marble dust, marble grains and marble chips collected from who knows where but it was manufactured together to look like and you thought you bought natural marble.

Now how exactly would you feel at this point thinking you had purchased natural solid marble, since that is what was shown to you and that is what you were told it was when you made your buying decision but in reality you bought dust, grains and chips glued bonded together with some sort of adhesive agent to be made to look like what it was really supposed to be?

Just how would you feel but lets remember that "sometimes things in today's manufactured world are not straight from their original form, but they are still what they are" but not exactly what you were told they were.

Fortunately from this experience, we have learned to ask the question. And hopefully our beloved watchmakers will learn to ask the question as well. In regards to the marble gravestone, if it was the most important person in my world, I hope I would think to do my research on such an expensive and significant item if it meant that much to me. __________________ It's funny to compare - Then and Now! My old Caravelle by Bulova. My new SANIII MOP.

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#305 Today, 08:20 AM Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: "Da Swamp" LA. Posts: 9,937 Real Name: John "WHO DAT"

strutn45 Senior Member True WatchGeek

Yep, just what i thought. __________________

"WHO DAT"

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Today, 08:21 AM Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Jupiter, Florida Posts: 442 Real Name: Elliot

yjmebs Senior Member Senior Geek

Please lock this thread __________________

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#307 Today, 08:27 AM

mrblue

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,460

Senior Member Super Geek

Ditto to YJMEBS .. enuf ............. I'm done with it too ............................. Blue

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#308 Today, 08:31 AM Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 338

Da Mad Scientist Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHRONOKEN Correct me if I'm wrong, but from the information we have now been given, the actual process of making these dials are as follows.

The Sandstone is ground into a loose material, then poured into a mold, along with a bonding agent.

Obviously this means that the sample we have been shown, and the explained process of cutting slices off a natural block of sandstone, and then polishing it into the glittery dial, is not correct. ^ That's what I've gathered as well.

While not identical, the process of these dials being implemented into a watch dial are more man-made than natural based off Eyal's post if taken word for word. Basically, the only 'natural' aspect of the sandstone dial are the components (sand) within it - period.

The grinding of sand from the stone itself, the bonding agent used to form it into bricks, the polishing, .....on and on it goes. There's only one element that's natural - the sand.

Everything else isn't.

Invicta would be better off using straight sandstone, with it's truely natural wavy patterns rather than this highly processed version of sand. Or, just use different dial material.

Granite, agate, alabaster, or any number of truely 'natural' material would look far better.

If you're planning on using natural material, then use natural material. Remember the unprocessed jade dials, tiger eye dials, meteorite dials? Granted, there's SOME processing in those as well, but not to the extent we have here.

All in all, it's all relative to your definition of 'natural'. -Just as I stated on page 6 of this thread.

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#309 Today, 08:31 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: THA BRONX Posts: 383

sunaru Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by yjmebs Please lock this thread lock it for what?? just a group of adults having a convo here.. if it bothers you or you don't like it. then simply just ignore the thread..

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#310

Today, 08:39 AM Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 291

hitch Senior Member Senior Geek

Please excuse me if someone else has said this but i cant go over 11 pgs thouroughly this am. I also dont know if there yet has been written proof whether its sandsone or not. If it takes a credentialed expert to know if these dials are in fact natural sandstone one cant expect eyal or lior to know it by visual inspection. Short of hiring a geologist, they have to rely on the word of the seller. It seems like a good enviornment for someone in the sales chain to run a scam on Invicta and others. BTW, give me a bronze dial coated with several layers of well-applied enamel and im happy.

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#311 Today, 08:42 AM Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Jupiter, Florida Posts: 442 Real Name: Elliot

yjmebs Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunaru lock it for what?? just a group of adults having a convo here.. if it bothers you or you don't like it. then simply just ignore the thread..

I say lock it because it's going on forever regardless of the fact that the question/issue was answered. Like you I am allowed an opinion and I gave it. If you don't like my post why not ignore it?

FYI: If you were to cut sandstone to the dimensions/thickness of a dial it would be too

brittle/thin to work with. __________________

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#312 Today, 08:53 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: THA BRONX Posts: 383

sunaru Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by yjmebs I say lock it because it's going on forever regardless of the fact that the question/issue was answered. Like you I am allowed an opinion and I gave it. If you don't like my post why not ignore it?

FYI: If you were to cut sandstone to the dimensions/thickness of a dial it would be too brittle/thin to work with. lol.... so says the guy who wants the thread closed. yet keeps reading and replying to it..

FYI: never said i didn't like your post.. just asked why you were asking for a perfectly fine thread to be closed. when you could in fact ignore it.. see thing is i'm not complaining about the thread you are, yet every time you post in it you bump it to the top keeping alive.. aahh the sweet smell of irony.. don't ya just love it?? that being said have a good day sir..

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Today, 08:59 AM

Big Time

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 95 Real Name: Michael

Member Member Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunaru lol.... so says the guy who wants the thread closed. yet keeps reading and replying to it..

FYI: never said i didn't like your post.. just asked why you were asking for a perfectly fine thread to be closed. when you could in fact ignore it.. see thing is i'm not complaining about the thread you are, yet every time you post in it you bump it to the top keeping alive.. aahh the sweet smell of irony.. don't ya just love it?? that being said have a good day sir.. & let that be that

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#314

Today, 09:00 AM

X-James

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 307

Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by yjmebs FYI: If you were to cut sandstone to the dimensions/thickness of a dial it would be too

brittle/thin to work with. and if that was mentioned when it was presented and the actual manufacturing process had been told this would not be a topic of discussion today, so ... yeah lets lock this thread down so we don't realize and learn that Invicta might not be the only brand out there of watches we like, desire and own that use an imitation natural sandstone on there dials. At least some manufactures are up front and call them aveturine glass or something like that.

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#315

Today, 09:09 AM

WatchYaThink

Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sunnyvale, CA Posts: 3,143 Real Name: Larry

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

"The material we use for our dials is SANDSTONE. Sandstone raw material is sourced FROM THE EARTH. The ONLY thing that is man-made is the process of bonding the sandstone grain to a brick like raw bar" I see a contradiction in this statement, or at least an issue of confusion. It would seem to say that the dial is not what one would think of as being "a sandstone dial" .... meaning it is a slice of polished sandstone. Sandstone can be polished and sliced very thin and a bonding agent used to keep it from crumbling. That would be my concept of a sandstone dial, made entirely from a slice of natural sandstaone .... and I believe that is how it has been presented.

What exactly is "a grain of sandstone"? According to the statement, "grains of sandstone" are bonded into a "brick". This to me sounds like man-made created sandstone-like material in which some natural sandstone "grains" are one of the components. Maybe this is what is actually meant by "sandstone" and the description of the extent to which a sandstone dial is a "natural material" has been a little exaggerated. __________________ "He who marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, for him a spinal cord would fully suffice" - Albert Einstein

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Add WatchYaThink to Your Contacts #316 Today, 09:09 AM Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Southern New Jersey Posts: 649 Real Name: Moses

06Pastmaster Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-James Here is something to ponder upon in regards to your manufactured world reference ...

The most important person in the entire world to you passes away and you go to purchase a grave marker for them. The stone mason tells you it is natural Italian marble. You come to find out later that what was nothing more than marble dust, marble grains and marble chips collected from who knows where but it was manufactured together to look like and you thought you bought natural marble.

Now how exactly would you feel at this point thinking you had purchased natural solid marble, since that is what was shown to you and that is what you were told it was when you made your buying decision but in reality you bought dust, grains and chips glued bonded together with some sort of adhesive agent to be made to look like what it was really supposed to be?

Just how would you feel but lets remember that "sometimes things in today's manufactured world are not straight from their original form, but they are still what they are" but not exactly what you were told they were.

Exactly..........not the same as natural __________________

" If Time is Money, How come I have all the Time and still no Money? "

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#317

Today, 09:13 AM Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Conyers,GA Posts: 2,854 Real Name: Brian

bdgrewe74 Senior Member Master WatchGeek

man i thought i did read all the pages...lol __________________ A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure.

- Segal's Law bdgrewe74 -AKA -Brian

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#318

Today, 09:15 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Long Island New York Posts: 23,925

BigJoe Original Past Ambassador True WatchGeek

Who care,s I like the way it looks so I bought it that simple. __________________

Big Joe like's watches and good friends.

Take care and be safe. [ Big Joe ]

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Today, 09:18 AM Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Conyers,GA Posts: 2,854 Real Name: Brian

bdgrewe74 Senior Member Master WatchGeek

well there ya have it... this is clear enough for me... working with china... always seems like a black art.. you never know whats really going on therer even if you ask...lol.. i have the same thoughts about the company i work for and a plastic molder we use.. lol __________________ A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure.

- Segal's Law bdgrewe74 -AKA -Brian

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#320

Today, 09:21 AM Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Southern New Jersey Posts: 649 Real Name: Moses

06Pastmaster Senior Member Veteran Geek

I respect everyones opinion here.I like Eyal,Invicta ,Jim,and everyone else..But if you take a pile of sand compress it with a bonding agent...IT IS NOT SANDSTONE.It is compressed bonded sand ..period .Sandstone is a rock, it is a natural sedimentary rock it is not processed __________________

" If Time is Money, How come I have all the Time and still no Money? "

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#321 Today, 09:26 AM

new2watches

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 180

Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by 06Pastmaster I respect everyones opinion here.I like Eyal,Invicta ,Jim,and everyone else..But if you take a pile of sand compress it with a bonding agent...IT IS NOT SANDSTONE.It is compressed bonded sand ..period .Sandstone is a rock, it is a natural sedimentary rock it is not processed I believe you hit the nail on the head.

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Today, 09:33 AM

scott99

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Great Neck, NY Posts: 745

Senior Member Veteran Geek

Wow, this is really amazing, I am definitely staying away from Invicta watches from now on.

Has anyone had their 7750 Valjoux's tested to see if they were truly 7750 Valjoux's ? I really doubt the credibility of Invicta's claims now.

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#323

Today, 09:34 AM Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sunnyvale, CA Posts: 3,143 Real Name: Larry

WatchYaThink Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by new2watches I believe you hit the nail on the head.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. And still, even with this explanation which acknowledges that it is a "created" material; it really does not account for the finding that the glitter in the material was comprised of regularly shaped one-dimensional triangles and octogons ..... that does not sound to me like "sandstone grains". We need some further

analysis. __________________ "He who marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, for him a spinal cord would fully suffice" - Albert Einstein

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mrblue

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,460

Senior Member Super Geek

The non experts are now claiming to be experts in dial making .. hmmmmm .. makes one wonder why they even need an expert ? ........................... you just cut the sandstone and bond it to the plate of the dial, yada,yada,yada ........ fellas, that's not how it works. It is simple to say, 'just cut the large piece' but it would fragment because it is inherently made of compacted 'sand' ..... it requires the bonding element to remain intact during the cutting process, or, it would have to be cut very thick with wasted material which would drive the cost up and be extremely inefficient. Why don't we stop 'poking' the fork at eachother and wait for Eyal's further evaluation. If he decides to add to this further, he will. He is not obligated to you nor I to do so. He has answered the question posed.

Now, if you want him to convene a panel of experts ... ask him !!!!!!!!! .. if you have the kahungas to pose such a question ? .... go for it. It's your right to do so ....

Best, Blue

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#325

Today, 09:36 AM

mrblue Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,460

orange juice is 98-99 percent pure .. are you drinking bonding agent or orange juice with 2 percent sugar to preserve it ? ..... It is processed, but essentially pure. It is not in the original form of a round orange, but it is considered by the FDA to be pure .... plse .... enuf > Blue

pirate

Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: bakersfield,ca Posts: 435 Real Name: terry

Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJoe Who care,s I like the way it looks so I bought it that simple. my thoughts exactly. I have a red ss SL and blue Inv. I think I paid like $100 bucks for the Invicta. When I look at the dial, do I like what I see? Absolutely.

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#327

Today, 09:39 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Chapel Hill, North Carolina Posts: 2,574 Real Name: John

HondaLover Senior Member Master WatchGeek

I imagine Lior and Eyal were presented sample dials from a vendor overseas, some of which were labeled and marketed by the dial manufacturer as "sandstone", whatever that means.

Lior and Eyal elected to order some of those dials for their watches.

That is about it. I have no doubt the product is highly processed, whatever it is. __________________ John

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#328

Today, 09:40 AM

WatchYaThink

Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Sunnyvale, CA Posts: 3,143 Real Name: Larry

Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrblue It is simple to say, 'just cut the large piece' but it would fragment because it is inherently made of compacted 'sand' ..... it requires the bonding element to remain intact during the cutting process Exactly, and this was how the process was described when they held up the chunk of sandstone on air. The surface is polished, then coated with a bonding agent, and then sliced.

I have seen pictures of sandstone slices created this way that were "the thickness of a human hair". Now it seems this is NOT how the material is made. It is a created material in which "grains" are compressed into a brick of something. __________________ "He who marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, for him a spinal cord would fully suffice" - Albert Einstein

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#329 Today, 09:40 AM Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: BIG NYC Posts: 1,065 Real Name: Kevin

pett2000 Senior Member Super Geek

Too much of a stretch? How about sausage, lunch meat, bologna, etc. - also made from machine-ground parts and BINDERS stuffed into a log.

Eh woman.................leave my sausage, lunch meat & especially my baloney ALONE!Lol __________________ But you & me, we know we got nothing............but time.

And you know................time won't give me time..............

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pett2000 Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by m*u*g* all this fuss over an invicta watch dial..........unbelievable......

Just call it invictastone and raise the price. Someone will buy it. "sandfuzion"! __________________ But you & me, we know we got nothing............but time.

And you know................time won't give me time..............

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mrblue

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,460

Senior Member Super Geek

Except those items bro are made from 10 percent of this, 5 of that and probably stuff you don't want to know about .... w/very little being real anything .... very little bonding agent is probably used to work with the probably 97 percent natural sandstone crushed material to secure it's strength. And remember, these pieces are cut into a dial shape, then handled further with subdial holes, screws being implanted in them, rings adhered to it .. they are handled at length, with applied or stamped numbers, etc,etc .. and they require inordinate strength to go through these 'addeted processes' before placed into the case .. I rest my 'case' ...... ha,ha .... Blue

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#332 Today, 09:45 AM Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: BIG NYC Posts: 1,065 Real Name: Kevin

pett2000 Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by new2watches The problem is in the fact that MOST other watch brands call the material aventurine glass, including Omega, Blu, Ulysse, etc.

The new timepiece made by Lederer for ladies is called Blu Lady Aventurine. The new watch is a real masterpiece of horology that combines outstanding design with precise complicated movement of the highest quality.

The Blu Lady Aventurine watch is housed by a 36-mm steel case decorated with the finest diamonds. The case is equipped with sapphire crystal to protect the unique beautiful dial. The dial reminds you of the sky of stars: made of dark blue aventurine it reflects the sparkle of diamonds and created the effect of the shining night sky. Instead of traditional hands the time is indicated with the help or a rotating disk with a tiny sapphire marker.

The same rotating disk is decorated with diamonds that act as minute markers.

The Blu Lady Aventurine accommodates an automatic calibre Blu-Orbit (basic ETA 2892-A2) with 27 jewels. The movement oscillates at 28,800 bph and features an exclusive module of indicating mechanism.

The new Blu watch goes together with a crocodile leather strap equipped with folding clasp.

The above is from http://www.timebooth.com/wordpress/2009/03/09/4967.html

And this from Ulysse Nardin Circus Minute Repeater Ulysse Nardin takes great pride in announcing an additional achievement in time-keeping art: the Circus Aventurine.

A richly animated circus scene decorates a genuine aventurine dial. Each of the six figures is hand-carved in 18 ct gold. When the minute repeater lever is activated, the monkey begins interfering in the ballgame of the clown; this movement indicates the hour chiming.

The trainer with the whip reaches out to the tiger, indicating the quarters. The tiger stretches its paw, indicating the minutes. The bear bows in front of the ballet dancer while the chiming mechanism is activated.

Limited Edition of 30 pieces.

Ref. Nr. 740-88 Diameter 42 mm Case 18 ct white gold Dial Aventurine Power-reserve Approx. 48 hours Winding Manual wind Water-resistant 30 meters Crystal Sapphire crystals Strap Alligator leather strap Buckle type Folding clasp http://www.ulysse-nardin.ch/en/swiss..._Repeater.html Bottom line is these are glass dials, are we really to believe that Invicta is doing something different to these dial that Blu and Ulysse are not?

Especially when Invictas supplier told Eyal that these dial all all made the same way.

Hey glass is made from silica which is from sand which is from stone so I guess you could call it "sandstone" and technically be correct. It is not sourced from the earth like it appears in the dials though, it is manufactured just like a concrete sidewalk from "natural"

materials.

Let's just call it what it is, that way there would be no controversy and we would not have threads like these.

JMO "Aventurine"...................Dont sound as sexy............IMHO! __________________ But you & me, we know we got nothing............but time.

And you know................time won't give me time..............

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new2watches

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 180

Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrblue orange juice is 98-99 percent pure .. are you drinking bonding agent or orange juice with 2 percent sugar to preserve it ? ..... It is processed, but essentially pure. It is not in the original form of a round orange, but it is considered by the FDA to be pure .... plse .... enuf > Blue That's why it's called orange "juice", it's not an orange any longer and the label indicates that fact.

I'm sure that know thinks they are getting the orange fruit when they buy orange juice, I'm mean what is there to peel? Except maybe the lid seal.

Just sayin.

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Today, 09:50 AM

mbgalg

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 100

Senior Member Senior Geek

the burden of proof is on the original poster as eyal is innocent until proven guilty. it would behoove the poster to get a written report from an expert stating that this dial is not sandstone but a synthetic material. we were told that a thin sliver is cut off a piece of sandstone and then polished into a dial. we were either lied to, mislead or none of the above. the original poster has raised some suspicion that all is not kosher in invicta land. he needs to substantiate his claim, apologize to eyal or just leave it alone.

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new2watches Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by pett2000 "Aventurine"...................Dont sound as sexy............IMHO! I agree but the Blu and Ulysse are some sexy looking watches IMO.

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Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 180

Join Date: May 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 5,596 Real Name: Ken

ukrany1 Senior Member True WatchGeek

Sandstone (sometimes known as arenite) is a sedimentary rock composed mainly of sandsized minerals or rock grains. Most sandstone is composed of quartz and/or feldspar because these are the most common minerals in the Earth's crust. Like sand, sandstone may be any color, but the most common colors are tan, brown, yellow, red, gray and white. Since sandstone beds often form highly visible cliffs and other topographic features, certain colors of sandstone have been strongly identified with certain regions.

Some sandstones are resistant to weathering, yet are easy to work. This makes sandstone a common building and paving material. However, some that have been used in the past, such as the Collyhurst sandstone used in North West England, have been found less resistant, necessitating repair and replacement in older buildings.[1] Because of the hardness of the individual grains, uniformity of grain size and friability of their structure, some types of sandstone are excellent materials from which to make grindstones, for sharpening blades and other implements. Non-friable sandstone can be used to make grindstones for grinding grain, e.g., gritstone.

Rock formations that are primarily composed of sandstone usually allow percolation of water and other fluids and are porous enough to store large quantities, making them valuable aquifers and petroleum reservoirs. Fine-grained aquifers, such as sandstones, are more apt to filter out pollutants from the surface than are rocks with cracks and crevices, such as limestone or other rocks fractured by seismic activity Sandstones are clastic in origin (as opposed to either organic, like chalk and coal, or chemical, like gypsum and jasper).[2] They are formed from cemented grains that may either be fragments of a pre-existing rock or be mono-minerallic crystals. The cements binding these grains together are typically calcite, clays and silica. Grain sizes in sands are defined (in geology) within the range of 0.0625 mm to 2 mm (0.002-0.079 inches). Clays and sediments with smaller grain sizes not visible with the naked eye, including siltstones and shales, are typically called argillaceous sediments; rocks with larger grain sizes, including breccias and conglomerates are termed rudaceous sediments.

Red sandstone interior of Lower Antelope Canyon, Arizona, worn smooth by erosion from flash flooding over millions of years.

The formation of sandstone involves two principal stages. First, a layer or layers of sand accumulates as the result of sedimentation, either from water (as in a river, lake, or sea) or from air (as in a desert). Typically, sedimentation occurs by the sand settling out from suspension; i.e., ceasing to be rolled or bounced along the bottom of a body of water (e.g., seas or rivers) or ground surface (e.g., in a desert or erg). Finally, once it has accumulated, the sand becomes sandstone when it is compacted by pressure of overlying deposits and cemented by the precipitation of minerals within the pore spaces between sand grains.

The most common cementing materials are silica and calcium carbonate, which are often derived either from dissolution or from alteration of the sand after it was buried. Colors will usually be tan or yellow (from a blend of the clear quartz with the dark amber feldspar content of the sand). A predominant additional colorant in the southwestern United States is iron oxide, which imparts reddish tints ranging from pink to dark red (terracotta), with additional manganese imparting a purplish hue. Red sandstones are also seen in the Southwest and West of England and Wales, as well as central Europe and Mongolia. The regularity of the latter favors use as a source for masonry, either as a primary building material or as a facing stone, over other construction.

The environment where it is deposited is crucial in determining the characteristics of the resulting sandstone, which, in finer detail, include its grain size, sorting and composition and, in more general detail, include the rock geometry and sedimentary structures. Principal environments of deposition may be split between terrestrial and marine. __________________

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#337 Today, 09:56 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Chapel Hill, North Carolina Posts: 2,574 Real Name: John

HondaLover Senior Member Master WatchGeek

I remember during one of the last Sunday runs, one of the watches was a Pro Diver that had a "faux" sandstone dial. Basically some glitter on a surface. Could that be what the OP took to the geologist? That would look one-dimensional. __________________ John

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Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Jefferson Ga Posts: 228 Real Name: Grady

beyelzu Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by HondaLover I remember during one of the last Sunday runs, one of the watches was a Pro Diver that had a "faux" sandstone dial. Basically some glitter on a surface. Could that be what the OP took to the geologist? That would look one-dimensional.

Indeed. Also that watch wasn't marketed as sandstone to my knowledge

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#339

Today, 10:02 AM Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Jupiter, Florida Posts: 442 Real Name: Elliot

yjmebs Senior Member Senior Geek

I'm having an awesome day, thanks!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunaru lol.... so says the guy who wants the thread closed. yet keeps reading and replying to it..

FYI: never said i didn't like your post.. just asked why you were asking for a perfectly fine thread to be closed. when you could in fact ignore it.. see thing is i'm not complaining about the thread you are, yet every time you post in it you bump it to the top keeping alive.. aahh the sweet smell of irony.. don't ya just love it?? that being said have a good day sir.. __________________

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#340

Today, 10:06 AM

LatkaTime

Join Date: May 2010 Location: Phoenix, AZ. Posts: 43 Real Name: Mark

Member Member Geek

Everybody must use their own judgement when making a purchase. However, just think, and search out proof for a minute -- "Real" Sandstone dial watches cost hundreds more than Invicta's latest sandstone pricing. What do you folks think ? You still get what you pay for, and who, and how do you think Invicta is paying for Jill's, Mike's, and Eyal's weekly trips, and expenses in MN ?

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Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: st. louis, missouri Posts: 651 Real Name: Dave

uman Senior Member Veteran Geek

whatever it is or it isn't it is okay by me to call it sandstone, rather than explain the technical details of how the material is produced. One mans sandstone may be another man's ____________. (fill in the blank).

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#342 Today, 10:09 AM

focalwatch

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 27

Junior Member Member Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by LatkaTime Everybody must use their own judgement when making a purchase. However, just think, and search out proof for a minute -- "Real" Sandstone dial watches cost hundreds more than Invicta's latest sandstone pricing. What do you folks think ? You still get what you pay for, and who, and how do you think Invicta is paying for Jill's, Mike's, and Eyal's weekly trips, and expenses in MN ?

I think Mike lives in MN. __________________ I bought a Stuhrling recently and Larry threw in a car .................ok just kidding

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#343

Today, 10:21 AM Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: southern Calif Posts: 8,758

Red Ryder Senior Member True WatchGeek

John (qwikfix ) is someone I have known since day 1 over 2 years ago.

I trust what he says and does.

It's still pretty, whatever it is. __________________ RUTHIE

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JoeGa Senior Member Super Geek

real slice or ground up and fused together, looks nice, but not worth the huge upcharges often seen, IMO....I mean, how common is sandstone??? __________________

What ?!? No Watch ?!?

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#345

Today, 10:27 AM

407guy Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: 407 area code Posts: 381

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaMeister I forgot to add that I really dislike the look of sandstone,meteorite,etc on watch dials. It's too " Vegas" for me.

LOL. __________________

Current rotation: Rolex Submariner, Breitling Chrono Avenger M1, TAG Heuer Formula 1, Lum-Tec Bull45, Chase-Durer Air Assault, Citizen (several), Seiko (several), Timex Ironman, G-Shock and Invicta (several).

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Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 15,530 Real Name: "Diamond Jim" Skelton

jskelton WatchGeeks Owner True WatchGeek

Eyal has answered this, so I'm not sure how much more can be added here, although I see more theories are being born every hour anyway.

I though the point was to establish if it was the real substance or not. Now that Eyal has stated that it is, the NEW focus seems to be to determine how it may or may not be processed.....? Why do the rules always change when an answer is given???

When your jeweler says your new necklace is "solid gold", he's not lying to you. But he's also not going to expand on this EVERY TIME he mentions "gold"... It's an alloy. You're not buying SOLID GOLD, you're buying an alloy of gold mixed with other metals to make it harder and more durable. He does not break down every step of the processing and manufacturing to tell you that it is gold. By saying "solid gold" he's telling you it is REAL, not PURE. The grocery store does not stamp "lips and butt holes" in the description of hot dogs, although that's how my old man described them. They do not print "beef scraps swept off of table of leftover, lower quality selections of meat" on the ground beef packages, but that's precisely what you are getting when you buy ground beef.

Your car manufacturer placed a hang tag on your seat indicating that it is made from real leather. They did not tell you that there is no such thing as a burgundy colored cow, and that the leather is processed and treated to create that color. They did not list on the tag that they had to slaughter an animal with an impact gun to the brain, slice it open, stretch and tan the hide.... and all the other things they do. It just says "real leather".

The point here is that Eyal says that it is real Sandstone. Eyal did not mine this in his back yard and process it himself, so he relies on his supplier to manufacture this into a dial the best way they see fit. It is entirely possible that the supplier called Eyal one day and said "hey, I now have Sandstone available, let me send you a sample" and Eyal liked how it looked (without breaking out his microscope and Junior Geologist toy set) and ordered dials to be made. Period. I don't believe the CEO of Ford examined the structural integrity of the Firestone tires personally under the microscope he surely keeps stored in his board room....

For the tires his company used a few years ago that kept exploding.... I suppose he COULD have, but is that his area of expertise? Maybe if he were a scientist and studied each tire, the recall would never have taken place....

While that sounds outlandish, that is how all of this sounds.

Invicta buys genuine Sandstone for dials, and offers them for sale. There is no grading process and governing body for sandstone like there is for say diamonds... so there is no need to discuss the processing of the material. We simply wouldnt have time to do this

anyway, we only have 2, 4, 6 minutes or whatever to air all of these items to you at a time.

I hope this helps. I apologize for any confusion, and specifically to any who feel let down in any way, that of course is not our intention as we present and deliver any of our products.

Please excuse any typos, I have to turn off my auto-correct on the iPad because it corrects watch terms and names that dont need to be and it is annoying. __________________

Quote:

Living well is the best revenge. -George Herbert

Quote:

Originally Posted by charleswatts Your candor in the explanation reveals the nature of the relationship you have formed with your viewers.

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#347

Today, 10:35 AM

Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Central Florida Posts: 275

jessismith Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by pett2000 Too much of a stretch? How about sausage, lunch meat, bologna, etc. - also made from machine-ground parts and BINDERS stuffed into a log.

Eh woman.................leave my sausage, lunch meat & especially my baloney ALONE!Lol

I know, right??!! I loves mah processed meats!

You can bet Eyal is looking up the industry definition and guidelines for "natural" as we speak. Outside of that, not much to be done if the manufacturer is within the established guidelines .... Other than practice the age-old philosophy of Caveat Emptor ~ let the buyer beware!

So hey, it's September! WOW! Have a great day everyone! __________________ It's funny to compare - Then and Now! My old Caravelle by Bulova. My new SANIII MOP.

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#348 Today, 10:35 AM

bichondaddy1057

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Spring, TX Posts: 2,368 Real Name: Larry

Senior Member Super Geek

Just a little info on Aventurine....it's not a man made product....

Aventurine Facts, Information and Description Aventurine is the Star Sign for Libra and the Planetary stone of Taurus.

Aventurine is a translucent to opaque variety of microcrystalline quartz. It contains small inclusions of shiny minerals which give the stone a sparkling effect known as aventurescence. Inclusions of mica will give a silverish sheen, while inclusions of hematite give a reddish or grayish sparkle.

Aventurine ranges in color from green, peach, brown, blue and a creamy green. Besides its uses in jewelry, aventurine is also used for ornamental purposes like vases, bowls, and figurines.

Aventurine is found in India, Chile, Spain, Russia, Brazil, Austria, and Tanzania. It is a 6.5 on the Mohs scale of hardness. This mineral is often mistaken for amazonite or jade.

It is interesting that the name for the stone is derived from an accident. Sometime during the 18th century, Venetian glass workers were preparing molten glass when copper filings accidentally fell into the batch producing a glass with sparkles. The name aventurine comes from the Italian "a

ventura," which means"by chance".

Deposits are found in Brazil, India, Austria, Russia, and Tanzania.

Not being an expert gemologist....I can't say whether or not the "sandstone" in my SL President is natural or not. I guess if I wanted to destroy my watch I could send it to my 2nd cousin...who is in graduate school to be a certified gemologist..I guess I could have her check it for sure....uhhh...but then I wouldn't have my watch would I????

I do know from my geology classes in college that sandstone is extremely brittle...and I cannot see that anyone could make a dial out of just sandstone. If it has been ground down into a powder and then held together with bonding agents, and maybe had some extra quartz cyrstal added to it to enhance it's sparkle...it's still basically sandstone.

As for Jim's example about hot dogs...just go to a packing plant and see how hot dogs are made....a little bit of this, and a little bit of that....and they don't state what parts of the cow were used to make your "All Beef Hot Dogs"...& there's plenty of "binding agent's" used to make them!!! __________________

Larry in Spring, Tx

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#349 Today, 10:36 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Sand Springs, OK. Posts: 367 Real Name: Bill

ZRXBILL Senior Member Senior Geek

The Co. I work for deals with a lot of vendors, mostly overseas, and we have learned a long time ago to not trust anyone completely. Our owner calls it Trust but Verify & and it's why parts are run periodicaly through a FTIR test to double check no one has switched materials on us. It sounds like a simple thing for Invicta to do to get this settled.

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#350 Today, 10:38 AM

beyelzu Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Jefferson Ga Posts: 228 Real Name: Grady

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Ryder John (qwikfix ) is someone I have known since day 1 over 2 years ago.

I trust what he says and does.

It's still pretty, whatever it is.

The problem is that trust is like a london force and drops off dramatically with distance 1/d to the 7th Iam supposed to trust the guy who sent John the dial because you trust John.

It is especially problematic to me because I know that watches with a sandstone look are also made byinvicta and not marketed as sandstone.

Also I feel like eyal answered the question just fine. Especially since the op would hold that the watch dial in question isn't even made the way eyal outlined.

As to the meta argument about natural vs unnatural. Ground up bonded and cut polished

would still mean sandstone to me.

mrblue

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,460

Senior Member Super Geek

Thanks Jim. All I know is that the dials require tensil strength to have holes for subdials cut into them, screws screwed into them, clamping for application of numerals and indices and then edges cut to fit into the case and more .. such handling requires bonding elements to make the material stronger for these procedures ... This, I think is a major reason for the mfg 'process' being used today to make these dials cost effectively.

Blue

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#352

Today, 10:44 AM

beyelzu

Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Jefferson Ga Posts: 228 Real Name: Grady

Senior Member Senior Geek

Shifting goalposts are bs.

I would like to thank you, Jim and eyal for your quick response. I do feel that he answered the question for all of us and I appreciate that.

As an aside I have appreciated eyal being more active on this forum and I hope that this sort of thing does not dissuade him from being active in the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jskelton Eyal has answered this, so I'm not sure how much more can be added here, although I see more theories are being born every hour anyway.

I though the point was to establish if it was the real substance or not. Now that Eyal has stated that it is, the NEW focus seems to be to determine how it may or may not be processed.....? Why do the rules always change when an answer is given???

When your jeweler says your new necklace is "solid gold", he's not lying to you. But he's

also not going to expand on this EVERY TIME he mentions "gold"... It's an alloy. You're not buying SOLID GOLD, you're buying an alloy of gold mixed with other metals to make it harder and more durable. He does not break down every step of the processing and manufacturing to tell you that it is gold. By saying "solid gold" he's telling you it is REAL, not PURE. The grocery store does not stamp "lips and butt holes" in the description of hot dogs, although that's how my old man described them. They do not print "beef scraps swept off of table of leftover, lower quality selections of meat" on the ground beef packages, but that's precisely what you are getting when you buy ground beef.

Your car manufacturer placed a hang tag on your seat indicating that it is made from real leather. They did not tell you that there is no such thing as a burgundy colored cow, and that the leather is processed and treated to create that color. They did not list on the tag that they had to slaughter an animal with an impact gun to the brain, slice it open, stretch and tan the hide.... and all the other things they do. It just says "real leather".

The point here is that Eyal says that it is real Sandstone. Eyal did not mine this in his back yard and process it himself, so he relies on his supplier to manufacture this into a dial the best way they see fit. It is entirely possible that the supplier called Eyal one day and said "hey, I now have Sandstone available, let me send you a sample" and Eyal liked how it looked (without breaking out his microscope and Junior Geologist toy set) and ordered dials to be made. Period. I don't believe the CEO of Ford examined the structural integrity of the Firestone tires personally under the mi roscope he surely keeps stored in his board room.... For the tires his company used a few years ago that kept exploding.... I suppose he COULD have, but is that his area of expertise? Maybe if he were a scientist and studied each tire, the recall would never have taken place....

While that sounds outlandish, that is how all of this sounds.

Invicta buys genuine Sandstone for dials, and offers them for sale. There is no grading process and governing body for sandstone like there is for say diamonds... so there is no need to discuss the processing of the material. We simply wouldnt have time to do this anyway, we only have 2, 4, 6 minutes or whatever to air all of these items to you at a time.

I hope this helps. I apologize for any confusion, and specifically to any who feel let down in any way, that of course is not our intention as we present and deliver any of our products.

Please excuse any typos, I have to turn off my auto-correct on the iPad because it corrects watch terms and names that dont need to be and it is annoying.

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Today, 10:46 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: THA BRONX Posts: 383

sunaru Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by jskelton Eyal has answered this, so I'm not sure how much more can be added here, although I see more theories are being born every hour anyway.

I though the point was to establish if it was the real substance or not. Now that Eyal has stated that it is, the NEW focus seems to be to determine how it may or may not be processed.....? Why do the rules always change when an answer is given???

When your jeweler says your new necklace is "solid gold", he's not lying to you. But he's also not going to expand on this EVERY TIME he mentions "gold"... It's an alloy. You're not buying SOLID GOLD, you're buying an alloy of gold mixed with other metals to make it harder and more durable. He does not break down every step of the processing and manufacturing to tell you that it is gold. By saying "solid gold" he's telling you it is REAL, not PURE. The grocery store does not stamp "lips and butt holes" in the description of hot dogs, although that's how my old man described them. They do not print "beef scraps swept off of table of leftover, lower quality selections of meat" on the ground beef packages, but that's precisely what you are getting when you buy ground beef.

Your car manufacturer placed a hang tag on your seat indicating that it is made from real leather. They did not tell you that there is no such thing as a burgundy colored cow, and that the leather is processed and treated to create that color. They did not list on the tag that they had to slaughter an animal with an impact gun to the brain, slice it open, stretch and tan the hide.... and all the other things they do. It just says "real leather".

The point here is that Eyal says that it is real Sandstone. Eyal did not mine this in his back yard and process it himself, so he relies on his supplier to manufacture this into a dial the best way they see fit. It is entirely possible that the supplier called Eyal one day and said "hey, I now have Sandstone available, let me send you a sample" and Eyal liked how it looked (without breaking out his microscope and Junior Geologist toy set) and ordered dials to be made. Period. I don't believe the CEO of Ford examined the structural integrity of the Firestone tires personally under the microscope he surely keeps stored in his board room.... For the tires his company used a few years ago that kept exploding.... I suppose he COULD have, but is that his area of expertise? Maybe if he were a scientist and studied

each tire, the recall would never have taken place....

While that sounds outlandish, that is how all of this sounds.

Invicta buys genuine Sandstone for dials, and offers them for sale. There is no grading process and governing body for sandstone like there is for say diamonds... so there is no need to discuss the processing of the material. We simply wouldnt have time to do this anyway, we only have 2, 4, 6 minutes or whatever to air all of these items to you at a time.

I hope this helps. I apologize for any confusion, and specifically to any who feel let down in any way, that of course is not our intention as we present and deliver any of our products.

Please excuse any typos, I have to turn off my auto-correct on the iPad because it corrects watch terms and names that dont need to be and it is annoying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave B Well... I don't wish to add insult to anything. But when I had my Invicta deep blue sandstone dial watch SS bracelet sized by a licensed, certified gemologist, he happened to be wearing his magnifier around his neck. He said, "No this is not sandstone. But it is a nice watch." I still like the watch. Twinkles like the night sky. But I have to take my friend by his word and experience. The watch is a keeper, though. more than one member here has been told the same thing.. i think this is why people are still questioning it.

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#354

Today, 10:47 AM Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Central Florida Posts: 275

jessismith Senior Member Senior Geek

Jim, Exactly. __________________ It's funny to compare - Then and Now! My old Caravelle by Bulova. My new SANIII MOP.

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#355

Today, 10:53 AM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: On the Puget Sound, WA Posts: 12,673 Real Name: Charlie

CharlieB Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by X-James So if your able to clarify this a little more it might help me and maybe a few others understand what your saying.

This whole bonding thing ... do you mean or are you saying that these dials were not cut and then polished from a chunk of solid raw "natural" sandstone mined and taken from the ground to the cutter and then polished but they are instead grains of sandstone materials bonded together to make a big block to then be cut and polished into watch faces?

If its bonded together "grains" can we really say its "natural" sandstone when its bonded together in a clinical/laboratory/factory environment and not a fully 100% mother nature produced solid chunk of rock?

I'm remembering awhile back seeing/hearing statements and disclosures on ShopNBC about enhanced gemstones before and between jewelery shows. To me I always took the enhanced as not truly a "natural" stone but instead a clinical/laboratory/factory enhanced item. I may be off kilter with this but enhanced or bonded is not really "natural" at all is it?

I think Eyal is saying that the sandstone undergoes a process similar to what our resident knifemaker brother Stebbins says is a stabilization process, which is nescessary to make the material able to be processed for use as a dial or a knife handle.

This makes perfect sense when you're talking about a material that is naturally wanting to fall apart. Stabilized sandstone is probably the only form that would work as a watch dial. __________________

Hot fun in the summertime!

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#356

Today, 10:54 AM

X-James Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 308

Originally Posted by HondaLover I remember during one of the last Sunday runs, one of the watches was a Pro Diver that had a "faux" sandstone dial. Basically some glitter on a surface. Could that be what the OP took to the geologist? That would look one-dimensional.

The following is snipped directly from the first line of the OP's post.

"Blue sandstone Invicta Model number 0050" and this is a link to the watch in question on ShopNBC. http://www.shopnbc.com/PRODUCT/?trac...h-_-family-_-N Please note that at that link the description is given as "Sandstone Dial" and then also as "Shimmering sandstone" and them later as "blue sandstone dial". No where does it talk about any bonding of anything not even at the bottom of the page under the sub descriptive topic of "About Sandtone" "Precisely as the name implies, sandstone is created from sand. Sandstone rock is forged from little grains derived from feldspar and quartz. It sets in many places as it really just needs water to form. Varying in color from one area to another, it is an easy rock to split and carve. This quality makes it popular in the construction of pillars, fountains, fireplaces and as shown here, even timepieces."

No where in the explanation of "About Sandstone" or within the description of the watch does it say anything about bonding blocks and such that Eyal mentioned but it does describe natural sandstone which is how this watch was sold to the public, even with the help and the use of a chunk of natural sandstone but never, and I repeat never until today was anything mentioned about bonding of grains and such together to form blocks of sandstone.

Granted now possibly there was some sort of communication error in the talk between Eyal and those over in Asia of how or what these blocks are formed of/from and also possibly somebody else is trying to cover there own kimchee over there but there is nothing in the description on ShopNBC that says anything at all about bonding and blocks and to that like but instead leads the consumer to believe it is natural sandstone that is described in the "About Sandstone" part of the description but there was the talk of "natural sandstone" and the use of a "natural" chunk of sandstone taken from the earth to sell these sandstone dial watches.

Honesty and integrity in the description and presentation of the product is all and this time once again ... well lets not dwell on that part.

Join Date: May 2009 Location: Atlanta Posts: 59 Real Name: Bill--aka BKK Bad boy

wjmccaff Member Member Geek

"lips and butt holes" hot dogs....that was a funny analogy.

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jade330i Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by jskelton The grocery store does not stamp "lips and butt holes" in the description of hot dogs, although that's how my old man described them.

Now that's a quotable quote!!!! __________________

More government is not the cure for the defect of less personal responsibility, it's an enabler; if people aren't accountable for their own actions then who is?" jade330i View Public Profile Send a private message to jade330i Send email to jade330i Find all posts by jade330i Add jade330i to Your Contacts #359

Today, 10:57 AM

407guy Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: 407 area code Posts: 382

Quote:

Originally Posted by jskelton The grocery store does not stamp "lips and butt holes" in the description of hot dogs, although that's how my old man described them.

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Today, 10:58 AM

beyelzu Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Jefferson Ga Posts: 229 Real Name: Grady

Oddly enough I would think the process door a watch dial would be different from a pillar.

Recall as well that the claim is that it's not sandstone as all. You might also want to review shops little warning about how gems in jewelry are treated for appearance. I don't consider this to be all that different. I have wooden shelves that I bought from Ike that are really nice pressboard. The description didn't say press board just wood. They Re still wooden shelves and hold my books quite well beyelzu View Public Profile Send a private message to beyelzu Find all posts by beyelzu Add beyelzu to Your Contacts #361 Today, 11:07 AM

rhinckley Member Member Geek

Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Boston Posts: 41

Rolex metorite dials

Rolex metorite dials 4000 to 4500 extra invicta metorite dials out of the same metorite how much? rhinckley View Public Profile Send a private message to rhinckley

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X-James

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 309

Senior Member Senior Geek

Jim - there is time to always explain and describe over and over again about Swiss gold layering down to the molecular level during many presentations of gold watches.

It would have taken only seconds for either the ShopNBC hosts or the Invicta representative back when these sandstone dials first began to appear on ShopNBC to just reference that sandstone is a natural semi fragile product and these are bonded for strength before polishing and then move along with the rest of the product presentation. The use of the chunk of natural stone was used and referenced many times and the talk of brilliant nite time star filled skies were used allot to help sell the natural sandstone dials but never one single mentioning of bonding of grains and such that is now being fully disclosed.

Please dont take it as being harsh or anything but y'all only repeat what your told and you probably had no clue but the dials are now in question, not only by the OP but also by a jeweler who looked at it and said it was not real sandstone. We can only go by what we are told by those who are presenting the watch and and by those who are representing the manufacture and you are not always told everything. It sounds that even Eyal had no clue as to exactly how these dial were actually manufactured until now.

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morrison2951 Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: F-V, NC Posts: 912 Real Name: Scott

Hopefully this will turn out to be much ado about nothing. I still remember years ago the controversy surrounding the allegation that the 3824 LE Diamond Diver's hour markers were not actually diamonds- they are, and they are still larger than any of the recent diver diamond markers being offered. morrison2951 View Public Profile Send a private message to morrison2951 Find all posts by morrison2951 Add morrison2951 to Your Contacts #364

Today, 11:20 AM Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Las Vegas Nv. Posts: 3,462 Real Name: Ralph Williams

reserveman Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Good job Jim. I can't believe its one thing after another. Swiss made, weather DD made the movements, now this. Every time Eyal has steped up to the plate to recafy these with an answer. I don't know any other CEO that would do this. Its getting to be a little much for me. Bottom line is who else builds watches like these for anywhere near these prices reserveman View Public Profile Send a private message to reserveman Send email to reserveman Find all posts by reserveman Add reserveman to Your Contacts #365 Today, 11:23 AM

mrblue

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 2,461

Senior Member Super Geek

I think you've got it now CharlieB ................................. MB mrblue View Public Profile Send a private message to mrblue Find all posts by mrblue Add mrblue to Your Contacts #366 Today, 11:25 AM Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 2,390 Real Name: William

SeaVulture Senior Member Super Geek

Here is another thing to think about:

TheOP and his friends are playing on the ignorance of those who don't know that you can't make a sandstone dial without a solid substrate.

It's just not possible to make something that thin & crumbly out of sandstone without a binder.

The use of molten glass or polymer is not a fraud.

By the way, real natural sandstone is sand with a binder of molten substance, or sediment.

One of the guys, in a group I was discussing this with, just this morning, made the point that you cannot make a sandstone grinding wheel, or sandpaper, without a binder.

My friend thought this was an ignorant argument to even bring up.

In other words, sandstone is a lose composite of sand and some other material that binds it together.

Dremel has been making cutting wheels out of garnet, which is nothing more than fine sandstone for decades.

I use these every day, so I know it is possible to make a dial out of sandstone.

I'll give it to you straight. I used to take down-hole samples and mount them on laboratory slides and perform X-Ray and Chromatograph research on said samples. So, I know first hand what I can do to that sample. It's been a lot of long years since I even gave it any thought.

Please try to be more open-minded , and less vulnerable to those who play on ignorance.

Hope this helps! __________________

Welcome to The Invicta Reserve SubAqua Venom Valgrange A07.211 Automatic WatchGeek Registry! http://watchgeeks.net/showthread.php?t=90044 Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Northeast Pennsylvania Posts: 578 Real Name: Fred C

bat Senior Member Veteran Geek

IMO this is all BS and to many people have way to much time on their hands.

Jim, Eyal thank you for taking time out of your BUSY schedules to address this BS. Somewhere this has to stop.

If you like it buy it and if you don't move on.

Seems to many want something for nothing. bat View Public Profile Send a private message to bat Send email to bat Find all posts by bat Add bat to Your Contacts #368 Today, 11:30 AM

kevin1122

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 12

Junior Member New Geek

Crazy, wondering if my Pro Diver Sandstone is real or fake now, I guess this will be enough to keep me from their products for a while??

I still like their watches, just need to see what direction they are headed before I make a high dollar purchase again with Invicta??

Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 2,392 Real Name: William

SeaVulture Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin1122 Crazy, wondering if my Pro Diver Sandstone is real or fake now, I guess this will be enough to keep me from their products for a while??

I still like their watches, just need to see what direction they are headed before I make a high dollar purchase again with Invicta??

Now, that's just sad... __________________

Welcome to The Invicta Reserve SubAqua Venom Valgrange A07.211 Automatic WatchGeek Registry! http://watchgeeks.net/showthread.php?t=90044 SeaVulture View Public Profile Send a private message to SeaVulture Find all posts by SeaVulture Add SeaVulture to Your Contacts #370 Today, 11:51 AM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: THA BRONX Posts: 384

sunaru Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaVulture Please try to be more open-minded , and less vulnerable to those who play on ignorance.

Hope this helps! you yourself have to admit things like this aren't hard to to buy into. when you find out your swiss labeled watch. which you have been told numerous times is swiss made, then down the line find out the movements in them are from china.. or find out the diamond watch you bought were really crystals.. i can go down the line(we both know how long the list is) but it's not even worth wasting either one of our time doing so, but i'm sure you grasp what i'm saying.. sunaru View Public Profile Send a private message to sunaru Find all posts by sunaru Add sunaru to Your Contacts

#371 Today, 11:54 AM Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: BIG NYC Posts: 1,067 Real Name: Kevin

pett2000 Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by wjmccaff "lips and butt holes" hot dogs....that was a funny analogy.

You caught that one too........................ __________________ But you & me, we know we got nothing............but time.

And you know................time won't give me time.............. pett2000 View Public Profile Send a private message to pett2000 Send email to pett2000 Find all posts by pett2000 Add pett2000 to Your Contacts #372 Today, 11:54 AM Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 34 Real Name: Harry

QUANTICO SPEEDLOADERS Member Member Geek

Thanks for your time Jim...I think I'm going to have some "lips and buttholes now!!! __________________

"Now I ask you...What good is a dead Ninja?": hours, Shop NBC QUANTICO SPEEDLOADERS View Public Profile Send a private message to QUANTICO SPEEDLOADERS

Jim Skelton 06/27/2010 @ 2105

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Hotspur

Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Here - now Posts: 1,366 Real Name: William (Bill)

Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunaru you yourself have to admit things like this aren't hard to to buy into. when you find out your swiss labeled watch. which you have been told numerous times is swiss made, then down the line find out the movements in them are from china.. or find out the diamond watch you bought were really crystals.. i can go down the line(we both know how long the list is) but it's not even worth wasting either one of our time doing so, but i'm sure you grasp what i'm saying..

The phrase is "suspension of disbelief". __________________

They all wound - the last one kills (inscribed below a 15th century clock) Hotspur View Public Profile Send a private message to Hotspur Find all posts by Hotspur Add Hotspur to Your Contacts #374 Today, 12:06 PM

Join Date: May 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 5,597 Real Name: Ken

ukrany1 Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by QUANTICO SPEEDLOADERS

Thanks for your time Jim...I think I'm going to have some "lips and buttholes now!!!

Then you need to go over to that other Site

__________________

ukrany1 View Public Profile Send a private message to ukrany1 Send email to ukrany1 Find all posts by ukrany1 Add ukrany1 to Your Contacts #375 Today, 12:11 PM Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 2,392 Real Name: William

SeaVulture Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunaru you yourself have to admit things like this aren't hard to to buy into. when you find out your swiss labeled watch. which you have been told numerous times is swiss made, then down the line find out the movements in them are from china.. or find out the diamond watch you bought were really crystals.. i can go down the line(we both know how long the list is) but it's not even worth wasting either one of our time doing so, but i'm sure you grasp what i'm saying..

I choose to trust, not condemn.

If it isn't quite to my liking, I'll deal with it.

What I see here is a witch hunt, for the sake of fun.

You've had your fun.

Now it's time for you to run along and find that documentation. __________________

Welcome to The Invicta Reserve SubAqua Venom Valgrange A07.211 Automatic WatchGeek Registry! http://watchgeeks.net/showthread.php?t=90044