Swiss made or not

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Powhatan Virginia Posts: 96 Real Name: Scott

Evil Empire Member Member Geek

Swiss made or not

Today while watching Mike Davis he says that if the watch says swiss on the face it is swiss made. I have heard Jim and Eyal say that if it does not say swiss made on the back of the case it is swiss movement. Maybe some one can clarify this for me and for Mike. Here is an example of what I talking about J179568 It doesn't matter because the price reflects the wording but Mike said they did not have room for the words swiss made at the six. They wrote professional instrument.

If it is swiss parts movement it is OK. Just think we shoud know what we are buying.

I just hate to see them mess up the reserve collection. They are supposed to be all swiss made.

Thanks, Scott

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Evil Empire View Public Profile Send a private message to Evil Empire Find all posts by Evil Empire Add Evil Empire to Your Contacts #2 Yesterday, 03:07 PM Join Date: May 2008 Location: PA Posts: 14,549 Real Name: Mr Horology Aka Mehdi.

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Yes, it says "Swiss" down at the 6'o clock Sub-Dial, that means it's Swiss made. __________________

Watchmaker - Jewelry maker Horology (The art of measuring time) (Watchgeeks in house Watchmaker) (Automatic & Mechanical Mechanical Chronograph specialist) Mr Horology View Public Profile Send a private message to Mr Horology Send email to Mr Horology Visit Mr Horology's homepage!

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

For the record: 1. Invicta is not a member of the Swiss Federation.

2. In the U.S., Swiss Made is controlled through the Swiss Federation's USPTO registered trademark.

3. Swiss at the 6 position when used by a non-federation member in the U.S. does not necessarily mean the same as Swiss Made. It's entirely up to the non-member company's policy, so long as it complies with U.S. Customs regulations that require the movement used in the watch to be from the country of origin placed on the dial. So at a minimum, you know that a watch so labeled has a Swiss movement.

__________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

Flyback View Public Profile Send a private message to Flyback Find all posts by Flyback Add Flyback to Your Contacts #4 Yesterday, 03:10 PM

Evil Empire

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Case back says swiss reserve parts. All my other akulas say swiss made reserve on the back......

Evil Empire View Public Profile Send a private message to Evil Empire Find all posts by Evil Empire Add Evil Empire to Your Contacts #5 Yesterday, 03:11 PM

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BIGNOIZE Senior Member Master WatchGeek

In the case of the new russain diver they have changed the the word swiss from the 6 to the 3 and according to jim eyal and mike all russian divers are "swiss made" __________________ L.T.R LEARN, TEACH, REPEAT BIGNOIZE View Public Profile Send a private message to BIGNOIZE Find all posts by BIGNOIZE Add BIGNOIZE to Your Contacts #6 Yesterday, 03:12 PM Join Date: May 2008 Location: PA Posts: 14,549 Real Name: Mr Horology Aka Mehdi.

Mr Horology WatchGeeks VIP True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback

For the record: 1. Invicta is not a member of the Swiss Federation.

2. In the U.S., Swiss Made is controlled through the Swiss Federation's USPTO registered trademark.

3. Swiss at the 6 position when used by a non-federation member in the U.S. does not necessarily mean the same as Swiss Made. It's entirely up to the non-member company's policy, so long as it complies with U.S. Customs regulations that require the movement

used in the watch to be from the country of origin placed on the dial.

So at a minimum, you know that a watch so labeled has a Swiss movement.

All correct. For the most part, I think Invicta labels "Swiss movement" watches as such, and "Swiss made" will say "Swiss" or "Swiss made".

That is just what it looks like to me, I could be 100% off base though. __________________

Watchmaker - Jewelry maker Horology (The art of measuring time) (Watchgeeks in house Watchmaker) (Automatic & Mechanical Chronograph specialist) Mr Horology View Public Profile Send a private message to Mr Horology Send email to Mr Horology Visit Mr Horology's homepage!

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RenatoDiamond Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Empire Case back says swiss reserve parts. All my other akulas say swiss made reserve on the back......

True, there are Invictas that say swiss on the dial, and are just comprised of swiss parts movements. __________________

RenatoDiamond RenatoDiamond View Public Profile Send a private message to RenatoDiamond Send email to RenatoDiamond Find all posts by RenatoDiamond Add RenatoDiamond to Your Contacts #8 Yesterday, 03:13 PM Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Crossroads Posts: 213 Real Name: gk

streekingeek Senior Member Senior Geek

always hear if reserve , always hand built swiss time piece. that's the reason the rave about what kind of deal hand built swiss made are on shop. gk. streekingeek View Public Profile Send a private message to streekingeek Find all posts by streekingeek Add streekingeek to Your Contacts #9 Yesterday, 03:13 PM Join Date: May 2008 Location: PA Posts: 14,549 Real Name: Mr Horology Aka Mehdi.

Mr Horology WatchGeeks VIP True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Empire Case back says swiss reserve parts. All my other akulas say swiss made reserve on the back......

On the Akula you have the J number for, it says Swiss reserve collection. __________________

Watchmaker - Jewelry maker Horology (The art of measuring time) (Watchgeeks in house Watchmaker) (Automatic & Mechanical Chronograph specialist) Mr Horology View Public Profile Send a private message to Mr Horology Send email to Mr Horology Visit Mr Horology's homepage!

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Kahuna Cowboy

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Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback

For the record: 1. Invicta is not a member of the Swiss Federation.

2. In the U.S., Swiss Made is controlled through the Swiss Federation's USPTO registered trademark.

3. Swiss at the 6 position when used by a non-federation member in the U.S. does not necessarily mean the same as Swiss Made.

It's entirely up to the non-member company's policy, so long as it complies with U.S. Customs regulations that require the movement used in the watch to be from the country of origin placed on the dial.

So at a minimum, you know that a watch so labeled has a Swiss movement.

What he said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIGNOIZE In the case of the new russain diver they have changed the the word swiss from the 6 to the 3 and according to jim eyal and mike all russian divers are "swiss made" Out dated information.

Swiss Movt and Swiss part movt RD's have filtered into the retail market for a little while now, Sam's Club, Amazon, Invictashark, etc.... Shop NBC had the carbon fiber racing RD that was a Swiss parts movt, that marked the first RD on Shop that was not "Swiss Made".

Kahuna Cowboy View Public Profile Send a private message to Kahuna Cowboy Send email to Kahuna Cowboy Find all posts by Kahuna Cowboy Add Kahuna Cowboy to Your Contacts #11 Yesterday, 03:23 PM

Evil Empire

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Powhatan Virginia Posts: 96 Real Name: Scott

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it says swiss reserve chrono movement collection..all my other reserves say swiss made reserve. Jim says if it doesn't say swiss made on the back of the case it is NOT. I am still going to buy the watch if I like it ...just wish there was a little more honesty....J179568 Evil Empire View Public Profile Send a private message to Evil Empire Find all posts by Evil Empire Add Evil Empire to Your Contacts #12 Yesterday, 03:27 PM

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BIGNOIZE Senior Member Master WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahuna cowboy what he said.

Out dated information.

Swiss movt and swiss part movt rd's have filtered into the retail market for a little while now, sam's club, amazon, invictashark, etc.... Shop nbc had the carbon fiber racing rd that was a swiss parts movt, that marked the first rd on shop that was not "swiss made". thank you sir __________________ L.T.R LEARN, TEACH, REPEAT BIGNOIZE View Public Profile Send a private message to BIGNOIZE Find all posts by BIGNOIZE Add BIGNOIZE to Your Contacts #13 Yesterday, 04:06 PM

Runnin' Ute

Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Sandy, UT Posts: 1,166 Real Name: Brad

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Empire Case back says swiss reserve parts. All my other akulas say swiss made reserve on the back......

Just looked at the caseback. It says, and I quote "Swiss Reserve Collection Chronograph Movement"

On the front "Swiss" and "Professional Instrument" Doesn't mean it isn't Swiss Made. Although in this case some clarification would be nice. __________________

Brad "Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that's the stuff life is made of." - Benjamin Franklin Runnin' Ute View Public Profile Send a private message to Runnin' Ute Send email to Runnin' Ute Find all posts by Runnin' Ute Add Runnin' Ute to Your Contacts #14 Yesterday, 04:11 PM Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Northern CA Posts: 17,317 Real Name: Brad

Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runnin' Ute Just looked at the caseback. It says, and I quote "Swiss Reserve Collection Chronograph Movement" On the front "Swiss" and "Professional Instrument" Doesn't mean it isn't Swiss Made. Although in this case some clarification would be nice.

If Invicta could put Swiss Made on the dial, they would. It's pretty clear to me especially with the case back reference to "Swiss Reserve Collection Chronograph Movement", that the watch doesn't qualify to put Swiss Made on the dial. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

Flyback View Public Profile Send a private message to Flyback Find all posts by Flyback Add Flyback to Your Contacts #15 Yesterday, 04:24 PM Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Honolulu, Hawaii Posts: 1,809

ao Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Horology All correct. For the most part, I think Invicta labels "Swiss movement" watches as such, and "Swiss made" will say "Swiss" or "Swiss made".

That is just what it looks like to me, I could be 100% off base though.

I understand it as what you have stated. I have seen Invicta use both designations, SWISS and SWISS MADE. I also understand Flyback's point about the Swiss Federation.

But with all these different designations, I can totaly understand the confusion and that's why this topic will always pop back up. ao View Public Profile Send a private message to ao Send email to ao Find all posts by ao

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wave3214 Senior Member True WatchGeek

Well done Brad that pretty much clears it up. This has been beat to death many times __________________

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dwhit Junior Member Member Geek

I agree it has been beat to death but still what does it all mean? dwhit View Public Profile Send a private message to dwhit Find all posts by dwhit Add dwhit to Your Contacts #18

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tmok2000 Member Member Geek

Let me tell you. If a watch qualifies as a Swiss Made, you'd bet that the manufacturer will slap those two words all over that watch. If it doesn't say Swiss Made, you can safely assume that it is not Swiss Made. tmok2000 View Public Profile Send a private message to tmok2000 Find all posts by tmok2000 Add tmok2000 to Your Contacts #19 Yesterday, 07:33 PM Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: colorado Posts: 950

MREXE Senior Member Veteran Geek

Better quit the disscussion and BUY the all black..........limited quanities! been waiting for this one...........at any rate, it falls under the Reserve umbrella.............the Swiss watch law is diluted at best...........

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Evil Empire

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Powhatan Virginia Posts: 96 Real Name: Scott

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thanks guys for the in put ,if the price is right ill buy it if I like it sorry to get everyone wound up

Scott Evil Empire View Public Profile Send a private message to Evil Empire Find all posts by Evil Empire Add Evil Empire to Your Contacts #21 Yesterday, 07:44 PM

Kahuna Cowboy

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Austin Texas..... Y'all Posts: 2,230 Real Name: Jeff

Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwhit I agree it has been beat to death but still what does it all mean?

Basically if the watch says "Swiss Made" then take that at face value. Anything else, or any other variation, expect a Swiss parts movement regardless what the hosts and vendors say.

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Mike_NavyNuke Senior Member Super Geek

Thanks for all the info guys, I have had this question looming in my head for a while! __________________

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erictrumpet Senior Member Super Geek

Every time this topic comes up, people post wrong information. Sigh.

Eric. __________________

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by erictrumpet Every time this topic comes up, people post wrong information. Sigh.

Eric.

Don't sigh, speak up. What information is incorrect? __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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streekingeek Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Crossroads Posts: 213 Real Name: gk

Originally Posted by Evil Empire thanks guys for the in put ,if the price is right ill buy it if I like it sorry to get everyone wound up Scott hey, like my mama always said, you'll never get an answer if you don't ask the question. gk.

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 828

Owlwatch Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy Basically if the watch says "Swiss Made" then take that at face value. Anything else, or any other variation, expect a Swiss parts movement regardless what the hosts and vendors say.

This would be fine except that the hosts do make mistakes and sometimes state that a watch is Swiss Made and the watch is not. I really have question when I see a brand place Swiss Made at the six position on many of their watches and than put it anywhere on the dial and say it was for design reasons. IMHO, where made is not primary in my decisions.

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Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Austin Texas..... Y'all Posts: 2,230 Real Name: Jeff

Quote:

Originally Posted by erictrumpet Every time this topic comes up, people post wrong information. Sigh.

Eric.

Indeed, what has been posted that is incorrect?

"Swiss Made" is legally enforceable of it's use by the Swiss Federation, to have that on the dial all the qualifications must be met or it is illicit.

Being marked "Swiss" is supposed to mean Swiss made as well, but is only enforced for members of the Swiss Federation, which Invicta is not a member. We have seen Invicta use "Swiss" on the dial without consequence when the watch did not qualify in the past. See the Sea Spider Sport OTV. "Swiss Made" is the only thing you should take at face value with Invicta, any other variation could mean Swiss movement or Swiss parts movement.

This goes for any non Swiss Federation member watch company.

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battleshipduke Senior Member Veteran Geek

If it says Swiss, it has Swiss parts If it says Swiss made, it's made in Switzerland.

If it says Swiss Emmentaler, it's cheese. o.k. bad Swiss joke, won't happen again!

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redcad Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by battleshipduke If it says Swiss, it has Swiss parts If it says Swiss made, it's made in Switzerland.

If it says Swiss Emmentaler, it's cheese. o.k. bad Swiss joke, won't happen again!

Keep them coming. They are gouda nuff for us! __________________

So many watches to wear, so little time.

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ScooterB Member Member Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback

For the record: 1. Invicta is not a member of the Swiss Federation.

2. In the U.S., Swiss Made is controlled through the Swiss Federation's USPTO registered trademark.

3. Swiss at the 6 position when used by a non-federation member in the U.S. does not necessarily mean the same as Swiss Made.

It's entirely up to the non-member company's policy, so long as it complies with U.S. Customs regulations that require the movement used in the watch to be from the country of origin placed on the dial.

So at a minimum, you know that a watch so labeled has a Swiss movement.

Very well put. I believe this information is all over the internet and does not just apply to Invicta.

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streekingeek Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Empire thanks guys for the in put ,if the price is right ill buy it if I like it sorry to get everyone wound up Scott

look in the watch industry news forum, lots of good reading in there. you'll see why everyone keeps talking about "beating a dead horse". have a good light and your glasses clean if you wear any, tons of stuff. gk.

Last edited by streekingeek; Yesterday at 08:29 PM. Reason: sp.

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScooterB Very well put. I believe this information is all over the internet and does not just apply to Invicta.

Of course it doesn't just apply to Invicta, but the OP's question was about an Invicta which is why I made the specific reference. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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rjaybass Senior Member Senior Geek

Yes I heard Mike Davis say the new R.D. is Swiss made although it says Swiss and not Swiss made. This appears at the three o'clock position. So I am a little sceptical after reading these posts but I'll probably grab one anyway. __________________ [SIGPIC]

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bpo

Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 322 Real Name: Brian

Senior Member Senior Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback

For the record: 1. Invicta is not a member of the Swiss Federation.

2. In the U.S., Swiss Made is controlled through the Swiss Federation's USPTO registered trademark.

3. Swiss at the 6 position when used by a non-federation member in the U.S. does not necessarily mean the same as Swiss Made.

It's entirely up to the non-member company's policy, so long as it complies with U.S. Customs regulations that require the movement used in the watch to be from the country of origin placed on the dial.

So at a minimum, you know that a watch so labeled has a Swiss movement.

Flyback - thanks for posting this. I was in the dark on this regarding Invicta. Very interesting.

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by bpo Flyback - thanks for posting this. I was in the dark on this regarding Invicta. Very interesting.

On that subject, the Swiss Federation is a trade group that is very expensive to belong to, and in large part advocates on behalf of companies who operate entirely in Switzerland. So in and of itself, there is nothing negative about Invicata not belonging as they operate in many more countries than just Switzerland. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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watchluv Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by erictrumpet Every time this topic comes up, people post wrong information. Sigh.

Eric.

Give us the right info. if you know it. __________________

Time to Watch as Time Passes Away

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by watchluv Give us the right info. if you know it.

I agree. In fact I even sent a PM asking him to post in the thread. Perhaps he really doesn't have anything meaningful to add to the discussion. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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#38 Yesterday, 11:01 PM

samuelrz

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What if they flew me to work in Switzerland and I made a crappy watch. They could still technically slap a Swiss Made label on it. I've never heard of the workers having to be Swiss Citizens. Hmm. __________________ SAM - http://www.giltman.com/invite/samuelrz

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by samuelrz What if they flew me to work in Switzerland and I made a crappy watch. They could still technically slap a Swiss Made label on it. I've never heard of the workers having to be Swiss Citizens. Hmm. The Swiss Federation is a trade association. They're not going to make things so difficult that it constrains their ability to run their companies.

And let's hope if you made the trip, your watch would be somewhere north of crappy!

LOL __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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meijin

Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 11,179 Real Name: Michael

WatchGeeks Owner True WatchGeek

When Invicta puts Swiss Made on the dial, it means that the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation have been used in the production of the watch.

When Invicta puts Swiss only on the dial, it means that the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation have been used in the production of the watch.

When Invicta uses the phrase Swiss Movt, it indicates that the movement in the watch is a Swiss Made movement, but the production of the watch does not follow all of the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation.

When Invicta uses the phrase Swiss Parts Movement, it means that a movement (usually from companies like Ronda, ISA, etc.) containing Swiss parts have been used and is generally been produced/assembled in a non-Swiss country.

This has been discussed numerous times here and also on the shows that have aired for the last several years.

So, for Invicta, when we use Swiss or Swiss Made, it means the same thing. That being, that the watch was produced using the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation. __________________ Michael

Argument is meant to reveal the truth, not to create it. ~ Edward de Bono Invicta...in hoc nomen vinces!

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samuelrz Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Join Date: May 2009 Location: N. California Posts: 1,293 Real Name: Sam

Originally Posted by meijin This has been discussed numerous times here and also on the shows that have aired for the last several years.

So, for Invicta, when we use Swiss or Swiss Made, it means the same thing. That being, that the watch was produced using the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation.

Thanks again Mike. I know this must get old answering. __________________ SAM - http://www.giltman.com/invite/samuelrz

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meijin

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Quote:

Originally Posted by samuelrz Thanks again Mike. I know this must get old answering.

Isn't the definition of insanity to do the same thing over and over again while expecting a different outcome?

But I digress...

LOL! __________________ Michael

Argument is meant to reveal the truth, not to create it. ~ Edward de Bono Invicta...in hoc nomen vinces!

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Kahuna Cowboy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by meijin Isn't the definition of insanity to do the same thing over and over again while expecting a different outcome?

But I digress...

LOL! Not when the circumstances of the confusion keep changing.

Sea Spider Sport (marked Swiss on the dial and Swiss Parts Movt on caseback) Understood as a mistake.

Racing RD OTV (Swiss Movt on dial but was a Swiss Part Movt).

The Akula in question by the original poster has changed from the customary "Swiss Made" we are used to on the Akula's, and now simply says Swiss. On the caseback it states "Swiss Reserve Collection Chronograph Movement" which is a little confusing, again moving away from the Swiss Made marked casebacks on the Akula. Probably explained away as visual queue.

I am not doubting your information, you certainly know better than I as far as Invicta's policies. But there have been enough examples in recent history that makes this topic come up again and again.

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unclefixit

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Quote:

Originally Posted by meijin When Invicta puts Swiss Made on the dial, it means that the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation have been used in the production of the watch.

When Invicta puts Swiss only on the dial, it means that the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation have been used in the production of the watch.

When Invicta uses the phrase Swiss Movt, it indicates that the movement in the watch is a Swiss Made movement, but the production of the watch does not follow all of the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation.

When Invicta uses the phrase Swiss Parts Movement, it means that a movement (usually from companies like Ronda, ISA, etc.) containing Swiss parts have been used and is generally been produced/assembled in a non-Swiss country.

This has been discussed numerous times here and also on the shows that have aired for the last several years.

So, for Invicta, when we use Swiss or Swiss Made, it means the same thing. That being, that the watch was produced using the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation.

Just posted this in another thread...think it applies here aswell.

Quote: Originally Posted by DIAMANTE Has anyone noticed that some Invicta models that previously used the ETA G10 and were marked Swiss Made are now using the Ronda 5040d and are now labled simply

Swiss?

This includes some Reserve models as well - Akula for example.

There was some discussion about this when the Amazon exlcusive models appeared, particularly the Venom. It was hundreds less used the Ronda 5040d and was marked Swiss.

My theory is that these models have the Asian version of the Ronda 5040d and therefore cannot be labled Swiss Made.

I asked JSkelton about this (when the Amazon Venome was being discussed) and he said he didn't know but he would ask Eyal.

I don't think the quality has suffered and the Ronda 5040d (even the Asian made version) has nicer features than the ETA G10. I just want to know if my theory is correct.

D Originally Posted by RenatoDiamond Very nice, this is one of the swiss movement (not swiss made) RD's.

Sorry Gene that would be incorrect.

The words "Swiss" or "Swiss Made", usually at the 6 o'clock position on the dail, indicate a watch built meeting the guidelines of the Swiss Federation of Horology.

The words "Swiss Movement" (in the same font) indicate only a "Swiss built movement" that has been encased and assymbled into a completed watch, in a non-Swiss factory.

The words "Swiss movt." (note abbreviation) indicate a non-Swiss assymbled movement and of course watch.

That's about as simple as I can put it.

Quote: Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy Not when the circumstances of the confusion keep changing.

Sea Spider Sport (marked Swiss on the dial and Swiss Parts Movt on caseback) Understood as a mistake.

Racing RD OTV (Swiss Movt on dial but was a Swiss Part Movt).

The Akula in question by the original poster has changed from the customary "Swiss Made" we are used to on the Akula's, and now simply says Swiss. On the caseback it

states "Swiss Reserve Collection Chronograph Movement" which is a little confusing, again moving away from the Swiss Made marked casebacks on the Akula. Probably explained away as visual queue.

I am not doubting your information, you certainly know better than I as far as Invicta's policies. But there have been enough examples in recent history that makes this topic come up again and again.

Just posted this in another thread...think it applies here aswell.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy Flyback, If customs requires the dial to be marked with the country of orgin, how did Invicta get away with the OTV carbon fiber RD's, and the Sea Spider Sport?

The Sea Spider Sport was marked "Swiss," the RD "Swiss Movt" on the dial. The casebacks were labeled "Swiss Parts Movt" on both.

We all know that "Swiss Parts Movt" are from the Orient in origin. So wouldn't the casebacks and dials need to be marked as such for importation?

Quote: Originally Posted by 50mm&up I got a Sea Spider from InvictaShark that has a 5040D Ronda asian parts movt. It says swiss at 6:00. lol. Anybody's guess is as good as mine and it doesn't really matter to me. You're getting a sweet RD for $90, whats the problem?

Rick I know the watch your talking about, the Sea Spider Sport.

It's the one that caused a big to-doo here because it was sold with an incorrectly labeled dail ("Swiss" meaning Swiss Made).

This mistake (by the dail manufacturer) during manufacturing wasn't caught until after the watches were finished and ready for sale.

That's why your watch is labeled as it is...doesn't mean your watch is poor in quaility by any means.

What it does mean is that you saved a hell of alot of money and got a great watch.

Search is your friend...

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Kahuna Cowboy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by unclefixit The words "Swiss" or "Swiss Made", usually at the 6 o'clock position on the dail, indicate a watch built meeting the guidelines of the Swiss Federation of Horology.

"Swiss" on the dial does indeed indicate a Swiss Made timepiece, however this applies to Swiss Federation members only. Any other companies using it is up to their own internal policies but must have at a minimum a Swiss movement as pointed out by Flyback from the importation regs he posted. That is the entire point of this debate and why examples have been pointed out of it's incorrect use even though Michael has stated Invicta's policy is if the timepiece is marked "Swiss" it meets the "Swiss Made" standards.

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unclefixit Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Universal City, Texas (about 10 miles N.E. of San Antonio) Posts: 1,434 Real Name: Jay

Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy "Swiss" on the dial does indeed indicate a Swiss Made timepiece, however this applies to Swiss Federation members only. Any other companies using it is up to their own internal policies but must have at a minimum a Swiss movement as pointed out by Flyback from the importation regs he posted. That is the entire point of this debate and why examples have been pointed out of it's incorrect use even though Michael has stated Invicta's policy is if the timepiece is marked "Swiss" it meets the "Swiss Made" standards.

Nice cherry picking of my lengthy response BTW. Yes i'm aware of Invictas' non-member status in regard to the Swiss Federation of Horology.

I also think it should be mentioned that Invicta, as a watch manufacturer, is in no way bound to label their watches, Swiss Parts movement and or components on their casebacks...yet they do.

I'd call that truth in advertising...what say you.

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timeman

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"Swiss Made" or "Swiss" under the 6 o'clock make it a Swiss made watch only if it conforms to the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry (FH) regulations. A watch that follows the USA Federal Trade Commission (FTC) will permit and consider a watch as "Swiss Made" merely with a Swiss made movement. In this case the word "Swiss" can also be placed under the six o'clock. So when buying a watch you need to know what regulations / agency the watch company is complying with, which could be difficult. To be safe "Swiss Made" under the 6 o'clock guarantees a true Swiss Made watch. __________________

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KOKONUTZ

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Quote:

Originally Posted by meijin When Invicta puts Swiss Made on the dial, it means that the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation have been used in the production of the watch.

When Invicta puts Swiss only on the dial, it means that the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation have been used in the production of the watch.

When Invicta uses the phrase Swiss Movt, it indicates that the movement in the watch is a Swiss Made movement, but the production of the watch does not follow all of the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation.

When Invicta uses the phrase Swiss Parts Movement, it means that a movement (usually from companies like Ronda, ISA, etc.) containing Swiss parts have been used and is generally been produced/assembled in a non-Swiss country.

This has been discussed numerous times here and also on the shows that have aired for the last several years.

So, for Invicta, when we use Swiss or Swiss Made, it means the same thing. That being, that the watch was produced using the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation.

Michael, acording to the Swiss federation.... (http://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php, the use of Swiss Movt on the dial is incorrect. Hence, that is why when Invicta brought out the original scuba, you used the full Swiss Movement on the face at the 6 o'clock position...all labeling of swiss movt by you and other mfgs is incorrect.

wrong right

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Kahuna Cowboy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by unclefixit Nice cherry picking of my lengthy response BTW. Yes i'm aware of Invictas' non-member status in regard to the Swiss Federation of Horology.

I also think it should be mentioned that Invicta, as a watch manufacturer, is in no way bound to label their watches, Swiss Parts movement and or components on their casebacks...yet they do.

I'd call that truth in advertising...what say you.

Not cherry picking, condensing, and that was the only part that needed to be added to.

As far as "what I say"......

I say customers that are concerned with a watch company telling us they are true Swiss Made timepieces yet don't use that full and proper indication for absolute proof, these customers have every right to question and be skeptical over that Swiss Made claim. After all, you are pretty much taking the rep's or host's word for it only based off the brand's own internal policies, and not any kind of regulations or laws. We have seen problems with this before with another SNBC brand.

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CLEANS-HIGH Senior Member Veteran Geek

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It is repeately stated that the reserve collection is Swiss made so I would go with that, I have 4 LP Italy watches that have Swiss between the 3 and 4 O'clock and Swiss on the case back so I think it means the same thing (their website states Lp Italy watches are swiss made) Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: The Woodlands, TX Posts: 2,411 Real Name: Matt

watchdude1 WatchGeeks Moderator Super Geek

Is Michael's clarification so far as INVICTA is concerned that difficult to understand?

It seems to me so far as INVICTA is concerned (I know other companies may take liberties with the Swiss federation guidelines if not a member), Michael's explanation of their policy is manifest, apparent, and might I say "clear."

At times, I think there must be a world wide shortage of dead horses, because every one of them would have been whooped many times over around here....LOL __________________ "God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy."

-Billy Currington Last edited by watchdude1; Today at 04:55 AM. Reason: spelling

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Bourbon City

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This web site gives a good general overview of Swiss Watch Industry and what it means to be Swiss Watch "anything". www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php BC

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unclefixit

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy Not cherry picking, condensing, and that was the only part that needed to be added to.

As far as "what I say"......

I say customers that are concerned with a watch company telling us they are true Swiss Made timepieces yet don't use that full and proper indication for absolute proof, these customers have every right to question and be skeptical over that Swiss Made claim. After all, you are pretty much taking the rep's or host's word for it only based off the brand's own internal policies, and not any kind of regulations or laws.

We have seen problems with this before with another SNBC brand.

So what really is being argued here is, can Invicta be trusted as a true Swiss watch making company.

Because if they are not a member of the "frat" or "club" (FH) and they simply

label their dails with the word "Swiss" they must be lairs and trying to pull the wool over everybodies eyes.

And of course this must be true because their products cost so little to purchase, right.

Isn't that a bit like saying a man can't be trusted or isn't honorable because he's not a member of a (insert group or frat here).

I'm guessing you may have seen Jim's post where he used pictures of several Pateks labeled only "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock to show that even members of the FH label their watches in the same way.

Now I understand healthy skiptisisim, but I think if Invicta were the boogie man that they are made out to be, the rest of the Swiss watch making world would've already made it very difficult to remain in business parts wise.

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Kahuna Cowboy Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Austin Texas..... Y'all Posts: 2,230 Real Name: Jeff

Originally Posted by unclefixit So what really is being argued here is, can Invicta be trusted as a true Swiss watch making company.

Because if they are not a member of the "frat" or "club" (FH) and they simply label their dails with the word "Swiss" they must be lairs and trying to pull the wool over everybodies eyes.

And of course this must be true because their products cost so little to purchase, right.

Isn't that a bit like saying a man can't be trusted or isn't honorable because he's not a member of a (insert group or frat here).

I'm guessing you may have seen Jim's post where he used pictures of several Pateks labeled only "Swiss" at the 6 o'clock to show that even members of the FH label their watches in the same way.

Now I understand healthy skiptisisim, but I think if Invicta were the boogie man that they are made out to be, the rest of the Swiss watch making world would've already made it very difficult to remain in business parts wise.

Please don't put words in my mouth and I will promise you the same courtesy in kind, thank you.

Bottom line, yes you are taking a bit of a "leap of faith" when non-Swiss Federation members simply use "Swiss" instead of the full of "Swiss Made" designation.

Companies have abused it prior so some skepticism is understandable. Is it so unreasonable to ask questions when some one sees a change and is unsure why a model like the Akula which has been marked "Swiss Made" on the dial and caseback until these newest releases all the sudden changes? Especially when Invicta is going in head first with Swiss component movements right now?

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CLEANS-HIGH Senior Member Veteran Geek

buy Seiko and Orient and there would be no confusion

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streekingeek Senior Member Senior Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Crossroads Posts: 213 Real Name: gk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahuna Cowboy Not when the circumstances of the confusion keep changing.

Sea Spider Sport (marked Swiss on the dial and Swiss Parts Movt on caseback) Understood as a mistake.

Racing RD OTV (Swiss Movt on dial but was a Swiss Part Movt).

The Akula in question by the original poster has changed from the customary "Swiss Made" we are used to on the Akula's, and now simply says Swiss. On the caseback it states "Swiss Reserve Collection Chronograph Movement" which is a little confusing, again moving away from the Swiss Made marked casebacks on the Akula.

Probably explained away as visual queue.

I am not doubting your information, you certainly know better than I as far as Invicta's policies. But there have been enough examples in recent history that makes this topic come up again and again.

maybe the case back on this model is a space deal and no punctuation and really would be swiss; reserve collection; chronograph movement. just a thought , a lot of times it will kind of run together. gk.

Last edited by streekingeek; Today at 06:30 AM. Reason: sp

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Evil Empire

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Wow I had no idea this simple question would cause such fuss. I accepted flyback's answer yesterday and went to sleep. I work shift work...you talked a lot while i was sleeping..LOL Thanks again for the info.

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by timeman . . . A watch that follows the USA Federal Trade Commission (FTC) will permit and consider a watch as "Swiss Made" . . .

The FTC does not specifically regulate the use of country origin on watches as 16 CFR 245 where they previously held that authority was rescinded in 1999. http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...id=fr09jn99-10 All applicable country of Origin regulations regarding watches are found in U.S. Customs Regulations, 19 CFR Part 177.

It's the joint application of the U.S. Customs requirements and the Swiss Watch Federation's registered trademark for "Swiss Made" that create the framework for compliance. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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bwag829 Senior Member Super Geek

Great discussion and still the answer is clear as mud.

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by KOKONUTZ Michael, acording to the Swiss federation.... (http://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php, the use of Swiss Movt on the dial is incorrect. Hence, that is why when Invicta brought out the original scuba, you used the full Swiss Movement on the face at the 6 o'clock position...all labeling of swiss movt by you and other mfgs is incorrect.

wrong right ONLY if you're a member of the Swiss Federation. Others can use whatever terms they like so long as they don't violate country of origin regulations or violate trademarks. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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Hotspur Senior Member Super Geek

My Rolex Day/Date (for instance) has merely "Swiss" at the 6:00. No question as to its authenticity according to my Rolex AD. __________________

They all wound - the last one kills (inscribed below a 15th century clock) Hotspur View Public Profile Send a private message to Hotspur Find all posts by Hotspur Add Hotspur to Your Contacts #62 Today, 09:51 AM

erictrumpet

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Bottom line guys, Invicta is not a Swiss product. It is not a product of Switzerland. It is not a Swiss company.

The only thing Swiss about some Invicta watches is that they (barely) adhere to the regulations for the watches which are marked "Swiss Made," and in all other instances the word "Swiss" is used as a marketing tool. Examples of this include: The "Technica Swiss Ebauche" movements and "Swiss Gold layering." Gimme a break, there is nothing Swiss about either of those things. Does that actually fool anyone? Yes, of course it does, that's why they do it!

Invicta is not the only company doing this, of course. Look at Renato: they mark all their dials like this:

"SWISS

MOVEMENT HAND

MADE"

LOL! Gimme a break!

Don't fall for it guys.

If you want a Swiss watch, you gotta buy a Swiss watch. And it's not just Omega and up, there are affordable brands that are honest products of Switzerland from Swiss companies.

Reputation DOES mean something. And you DO get what you pay for. The cost of an Omega is not just to pay the endorsement contracts and other advertising. That's just

one example.

All that said, Invicta makes a great watch. Enjoy them for what they are! If you have one that says Swiss Made, personally I like that, but I know it really doesn't mean anything. An Invicta is an Invicta.

Have fun guys! What a great hobby!

Eric. __________________

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DIAMANTE

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Quote:

Originally Posted by meijin .....snip....

When Invicta puts Swiss only on the dial, it means that the guidelines set forth by the Swiss Federation have been used in the production of the watch....snip....

So why the change to Swiss only on the dials of the Akula, Venom, S1 Touring, etc....?

The change coincides with the change in movement - a movement that could be made in Asia.

I realize their is a lot of secrecy in the watch industry and if it comes out that in fact these newer versions are actually using the Asian made Ronda 5040d then Invicta's credibility is going to take a massive hit?

You are on the record as saying when Invicta uses Swiss they are meeting the guidelines to use Swiss Made which means the movement must be Swiss Made.

All it is going to take is for someone to pop the case back and we will know for sure. I don't own one of these models but I'm tempted to buy one just take a look.

D __________________ Swiss Made OG II Chrono (5050c)

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Owlwatch Senior Member Veteran Geek

I don't know...it seems that any company that truly desires to communicate to the buying public, with dependability and integrity, that particular watches are Swiss Made would place that label at the six dial mark. Not at three dial mark, not at the nine dial mark, etc. Invicta does this with several of their watches‌Reserve and others. Why not with all that are said to be Swiss Made to avoid questions and confusion

‌JMHO

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reliefcp

Join Date: May 2009 Location: Everett Wa. Posts: 2,505 Real Name: C.J.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by erictrumpet Bottom line guys, Invicta is not a Swiss product. It is not a product of Switzerland.

It is not a Swiss company.

The only thing Swiss about some Invicta watches is that they (barely) adhere to the regulations for the watches which are marked "Swiss Made," and in all other instances the word "Swiss" is used as a marketing tool. Examples of this include: The "Technica Swiss Ebauche" movements and "Swiss Gold layering." Gimme a break, there is nothing Swiss about either of those things. Does that actually fool anyone? Yes, of course it does, that's why they do it!

Invicta is not the only company doing this, of course. Look at Renato: they mark all their dials like this:

"SWISS

MOVEMENT HAND

MADE"

LOL! Gimme a break!

Don't fall for it guys.

If you want a Swiss watch, you gotta buy a Swiss watch. And it's not just Omega and up, there are affordable brands that are honest products of Switzerland from Swiss companies.

Reputation DOES mean something. And you DO get what you pay for. The cost of an Omega is not just to pay the endorsement contracts and other advertising.

That's just one example.

All that said, Invicta makes a great watch. Enjoy them for what they are! If you have one that says Swiss Made, personally I like that, but I know it really doesn't mean anything. An Invicta is an Invicta.

Have fun guys! What a great hobby!

Eric.

Is this your personal speculation or do you have proof about not only Invicta but Omega too.How does anyone really know what a true Swiss made watch is when the all outsource from China.Renato has never said Swiss Made on any of their dials and if you own any of them you wll see that they are Hand Made.

__________________

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watchdude1 WatchGeeks Moderator Super Geek

Not sure you can "barely" adhere to the Swiss federation guidelines for "Swiss Made."

That is like being "a little" pregnant. Either Invicta does hold to those guidelines when a dial says "Swiss Made" at the 6, or it does not. Based on customs regs and trademark law, there would be no reason to believe they do not. The "Swiss" at the 6 position is another story, but once again, Michael has stated that Invicta's company policy is that "Swiss" at the 6 means they follow the guidelines of the Swiss federation and are therefore Swiss made. If you don't believe him, that is your right, however until you can prove otherwise it is all speculation. __________________ "God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy."

-Billy Currington

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erictrumpet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by reliefcp (snip) How does anyone really know what a true Swiss made watch is when the[y] all outsource from China. (snip) True! I agree completely.

Eric. __________________

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erictrumpet Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote:

Originally Posted by watchdude1 Not sure you can "barely" adhere to the Swiss federation guidelines for "Swiss Made." That is like being "a little" pregnant. (snip) Agreed, not an ideal choice of words on my part. But I think you get my point: Invicta is not a Swiss watch, but does what is necessary - and ONLY what is minimally necessary - to "earn" the right to print Swiss Made on the dial, and only then for merely marketing purposes. And of course Invicta is not alone in this.

Eric. __________________

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tampa8

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For me it's not about believing Mike or anyone for that matter. If they say it is swiss made I'm sure it is.

Here's the problem. First, what do they mean by swiss made. Is it swiss made, say as an Omega, or is it swiss made by some other calculation/meaning.

Second, why not simply put Swiss Made on the dial instead of Swiss? __________________

Remember, watches are people too.

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erictrumpet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by watchdude1 (snip)"Swiss" at the 6 means they follow the guidelines of the Swiss federation and are therefore Swiss made.

This is the misleading information that is routinely posted on this site that caused my first post on this subject.

Only on vintage pieces from Swiss companies does "Swiss" truly equal "Swiss Made" because they were made before the regulations became more specific.

Swiss does NOT mean Swiss Made.

Swiss at 3 o'clock does NOT mean Swiss Made.

They ain't Swiss watches, guys Think about a Ford. Is it an American car? So much of it is outsourced, so, you might argue no it is not American made. But it's an American car in the sense that it's an American company. I'd rather think of Invictas as American watches since it's an American company now (long ago it was a Swiss company), and some of its success is based upon sales on American home shopping TV. They used to have a Made in the USA line of watches, wish they'd bring that back.

The perpetuation of myth in an attempt to appear Swiss in origin is tiresome and unethical. But, "everybody does it." But does that make it right?

Eric. __________________

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heavyjumbo Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIAMANTE So why the change to Swiss only on the dials of the Akula, Venom, S1 Touring, etc....?

Agreed -- there is no other logical explanation. I guess its entirely possible that Invicta went through the trouble of changing the wording on all of these dials even though the watch is still Swiss Made. However, I highly doubt this is the case. __________________

Paul G. Boca Raton, FL

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Time Bandit Senior Member Veteran Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by erictrumpet Swiss does NOT mean Swiss Made.

Read Eric's post, This is as simply put as it can be, and the real truth in those 6 words!

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KOKONUTZ Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyback ONLY if you're a member of the Swiss Federation. Others can use whatever terms they like so long as they don't violate country of origin regulations or violate trademarks.

Not sure I understand what you're saying here Brad.

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heavyjumbo Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Originally Posted by watchdude1 Not sure you can "barely" adhere to the Swiss federation guidelines for "Swiss Made." That is like being "a little" pregnant. Either Invicta does hold to those guidelines when a dial says "Swiss Made" at the 6, or it does not. Based on customs regs and trademark law, there would be no reason to believe they do not. The "Swiss" at the 6 position is another story, but once again, Michael has stated that Invicta's company policy is that "Swiss" at the 6 means they follow the guidelines of the Swiss federation and are therefore Swiss made. If you don't believe him, that is your right, however until you can prove otherwise it is all speculation.

Well put Matt.

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Paul G. Boca Raton, FL

heavyjumbo View Public Profile Send a private message to heavyjumbo Find all posts by heavyjumbo Add heavyjumbo to Your Contacts #75 Today, 11:12 AM Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Northern CA Posts: 17,318 Real Name: Brad

Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote:

Originally Posted by watchdude1 Not sure you can "barely" adhere to the Swiss federation guidelines for "Swiss Made." That is like being "a little" pregnant. Either Invicta does hold to those guidelines when a dial says "Swiss Made" at the 6, or it does not. Based on customs regs and trademark law, there would be no reason to believe they do not. The "Swiss" at the 6 position is another story, but once again, Michael has stated that Invicta's company policy is that "Swiss" at the 6 means they follow the guidelines of the Swiss federation and are therefore Swiss made. If you don't believe him, that is your right, however until you can prove otherwise it is all speculation.

Clear, concise and to the point Matt. __________________