What part of switzerland, are invicta watches made

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abduksion Senior Member True WatchGeek

What part of Switzerland, are Invicta watches made?

Does anyone know what part of Switzerland Invicta makes their watches? __________________

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

If they do, they aren't telling. __________________

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reliefcp Senior Member True WatchGeek

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o one knows K. It would be interesting to see it though. __________________

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desert rex Senior Member Super Geek

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According to Jim Skelton,Ivicta bought two Swiss factory's in 2003.No mention of what area

they were in. __________________

Master Edmund.J.Mede 10th Dan desert rex View Public Profile Send a private message to desert rex Find all posts by desert rex Add desert rex to Your Contacts #5 11-09-2010, 07:10 PM

mrmike29 Senior Member Senior Geek

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I would like to know as well, can't figure out why they are so secretive about it. That is to say I think there is some level of duplicity involved, because of the unknown. mrmike29 View Public Profile Send a private message to mrmike29 Find all posts by mrmike29 Add mrmike29 to Your Contacts #6 11-09-2010, 07:10 PM

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Gazoo46 Senior Member Senior Geek

That part of Switzerland located in Asia. LOL J/K Gazoo46 View Public Profile Send a private message to Gazoo46 Find all posts by Gazoo46 Add Gazoo46 to Your Contacts #7 11-09-2010, 07:12 PM

abduksion Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Huh, Well we can rule out Geneva, even though made a womens Geneva timepiece a few yrs ago. I would guess the following places.

1) Bern 2) La Chaux-de-Fonds 3)Lucerne __________________

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soberdave09 Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote: Originally Posted by Gazoo46 That part of Switzerland located in Asia. LOL J/K LOL, __________________

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fwendell Senior Member Senior Geek naughty Quote: Originally Posted by Gazoo46 That part of Switzerland located in Asia. LOL J/K

you are a naughty person. i am saying "person" because that is more PC, than boy or girl.

OOPS, never mind, went back and saw that it is "MAN", but still BAD. Last edited by fwendell; 11-09-2010 at 07:20 PM. Reason: correct assumption fwendell View Public Profile Send a private message to fwendell Find all posts by fwendell Add fwendell to Your Contacts #10 11-09-2010, 07:20 PM jsirois1120 Senior Member Senior Geek

Victa...............Duh jsirois1120 View Public Profile Send a private message to jsirois1120 Send email to jsirois1120 Find all posts by jsirois1120

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Add jsirois1120 to Your Contacts #11 11-09-2010, 07:21 PM Azel88 Senior Member Super Geek

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I know one is next to the cheese factory were they make baby swiss Azel88 View Public Profile Send a private message to Azel88 Find all posts by Azel88 Add Azel88 to Your Contacts #12 11-09-2010, 07:23 PM

RaiderFan Senior Member Veteran Geek

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Wherever the companies they contract to build them are located. I would be shocked to learn that Invicta has their own manufacturing facilities in Switzerland. I believe that if they did we would have seen pictures and profiles ad nauseum of them. I wouldn't be all that surprised to find out they have some warehousing space there, maybe even a few watchmakers there to do repairs, but a regular manufacture facility, I'm betting no. __________________

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by RaiderFan Wherever the companies they contract to build them are located. I would be shocked to learn that Invicta has their own manufacturing facilities in Switzerland. I believe that if they did we would have seen pictures and profiles ad nauseum of them. I wouldn't be all that surprised to find out they have some warehousing space there, maybe even a few watchmakers there to do repairs, but a regular manufacture facility, I'm betting no.

DING - DING - DING!

Give this man a cigar!

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rastafadda1953 Senior Member Super Geek

right next to bejing across from the giant panda park rastafadda1953 View Public Profile Send a private message to rastafadda1953 Send email to rastafadda1953 Find all posts by rastafadda1953 Add rastafadda1953 to Your Contacts #15 11-09-2010, 07:28 PM

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jsirois1120 Senior Member Senior Geek

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I agree..............No chance they even rent/lease/timeshare in the land of holy cheese. jsirois1120 View Public Profile Send a private message to jsirois1120 Send email to jsirois1120 Find all posts by jsirois1120 Add jsirois1120 to Your Contacts #16 11-09-2010, 07:33 PM

desert rex Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by RaiderFan Wherever the companies they contract to build them are located. I would be shocked to learn that Invicta has their own manufacturing facilities in Switzerland. I believe that if they did we would have seen pictures and profiles ad nauseum of them. I wouldn't be all that surprised to find out they have some warehousing space there, maybe even a few watchmakers there to do repairs, but a regular manufacture facility, I'm betting no.

jskelton WatchGeeks Owner True WatchGeek Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 15,968 Real Name: "Diamond Jim" Skelton

Invicta partners with dozens of factories all over the world for different things. Invicta also owns their own factories.

They use case factories in Panama, they use Swiss factories, and HK factories for their nonSwiss watches. IIRC they have facilities in 5 different countries.

Invicta purchased two Swiss factories in 2003 and have been doing a lot of work through them (like the Reserve Collection).

So like many brands, Invicta does work with factory partnerships, but they also own their own factories. This is why they they are able to produce at a volume level that others could only dream of.

They are the number 1 user of Miyota movements, one of the top users of ETA movements, top user of Ronda movements, and in the top ten of manufacturers submitting to the COSC. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote borrowed from a previously post __________________

Master Edmund.J.Mede 10th Dan desert rex View Public Profile Send a private message to desert rex Find all posts by desert rex Add desert rex to Your Contacts #17 11-09-2010, 07:42 PM karns944 Senior Member Senior Geek

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Didn't Jim or Eyal say that ***ALL*** Reserve watches were hand assembled ***IN*** Switzerland??? IF I remember right. karns944 View Public Profile Send a private message to karns944 Find all posts by karns944 Add karns944 to Your Contacts #18 11-09-2010, 07:46 PM

Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

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It's my guess/opinion that When Invicta purchased the S. Coifman and Potger Pietri brands, no hard assets were acquired and that Invicta only acquired the rights to the brand names. If the actually had brick and mortar facilities in Switzerland we'd see pictures and videos as part of their marketing programs. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

Flyback View Public Profile Send a private message to Flyback Find all posts by Flyback Add Flyback to Your Contacts #19 11-09-2010, 07:48 PM 1956 chevrolet Senior Member Senior Geek

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Glad to see you weigh in on this Jim. It never ceases to amaze me how some members on this forum seem to think that Eyal sits around and trys to think of ways to deceive their customers. Is

Invicta perfect? No All they do is make a great timepiece at a great price. Just my .02 worth 1956 chevrolet View Public Profile Send a private message to 1956 chevrolet Find all posts by 1956 chevrolet Add 1956 chevrolet to Your Contacts #20 11-09-2010, 07:49 PM

Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by 1956 chevrolet Glad to see you weigh in on this Jim. It never ceases to amaze me how some members on this forum seem to think that Eyal sits around and trys to think of ways to deceive their customers.

Is Invicta perfect? No All they do is make a great timepiece at a great price. Just my .02 worth Jim didn't weigh in, Desert Rex copied that post from another thread. And yes, Invicta does make great watches at great prices, no matter if it's all done under contract or not. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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best thread you've ever started Special K! jack daniels View Public Profile Send a private message to jack daniels

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Find all posts by jack daniels Add jack daniels to Your Contacts #23 11-09-2010, 07:53 PM Watchyourback Senior Member Senior Geek

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Actually I do like that crazy picture of eyals "people" wearing the white lab coats with Invicta logos. That's priceless.

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fullautoarmalite Senior Member True WatchGeek

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I don't care where there made, just like i don't care where my Heart beat of America made in Mexico Chevy truck and my 100% real American made beef from China is made either. OOPS, hang on my Great state of Texas flag made in Bangladesh just fell over. __________________ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u57ZB...eature=related fullautoarmalite View Public Profile Send a private message to fullautoarmalite Send email to fullautoarmalite Find all posts by fullautoarmalite Add fullautoarmalite to Your Contacts

#25 11-09-2010, 08:01 PM Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: "Da Swamp" LA. Posts: 10,774 Real Name: John "WHO DAT"

strutn45 Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote: Originally Posted by fullautoarmalite I don't care where there made, just like i don't care where my Heart beat of America made in Mexico Chevy truck and my 100% real American made beef from China is made either.

OOPS, hang on my Great state of Texas flag made in Bangladesh just fell over.

LMAO __________________

WHO DAT

reliefcp Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote: Originally Posted by desert rex

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jskelton WatchGeeks Owner True WatchGeek Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 15,968 Real Name: "Diamond Jim" Skelton

Invicta partners with dozens of factories all over the world for different things. Invicta also owns their own factories.

They use case factories in Panama, they use Swiss factories, and HK factories for their nonSwiss watches. IIRC they have facilities in 5 different countries.

Invicta purchased two Swiss factories in 2003 and have been doing a lot of work through them (like the Reserve Collection).

So like many brands, Invicta does work with factory partnerships, but they also own their own factories. This is why they they are able to produce at a volume level that others could only dream of.

They are the number 1 user of Miyota movements, one of the top users of ETA movements, top user of Ronda movements, and in the top ten of manufacturers submitting to the COSC. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote borrowed from a previously post What was the date of this post Jeff? Also when was the last time you saw a COSC Invicta? __________________

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by reliefcp What was the date of this post Jeff? Also when was the last time you saw a COSC Invicta?

December of 2008. http://watchgeeks.net/showpost.php?p=230859&postcount=3 __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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I love my Invictas and don't want to know whats behind the curtain. In the dark is the best place to be when Invicta is the topic. Just read what it says at the six'o clock position and go with it. jsirois1120 View Public Profile Send a private message to jsirois1120 Send email to jsirois1120 Find all posts by jsirois1120 Add jsirois1120 to Your Contacts #29 11-09-2010, 08:09 PM

desert rex Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by reliefcp What was the date of this post Jeff? Also when was the last time you saw a COSC Invicta?

Haven't seen a COSC Invicta in quite a while. The post was going back some,But info should still be the same I would think.Maybe Jim will touch base with us on this since he stated this in the past. __________________

Master Edmund.J.Mede 10th Dan desert rex View Public Profile Send a private message to desert rex Find all posts by desert rex Add desert rex to Your Contacts #30 11-09-2010, 08:14 PM

Panchester Member Member Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by abduksion Does anyone know what part of Switzerland Invicta makes their watches?

Ouch !!

Maybe Mr. Lalo has answer for you ? Surely he has one Swiss address ?

Does PO Box count ? Maybe they share the address with DD ?

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reliefcp Senior Member True WatchGeek

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I know there was a big deal about them acquiring factories in 2003 but really havent seen anything since then. Maybe someone has some more current info. __________________

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desert rex Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by reliefcp I know there was a big deal about them acquiring factories in 2003 but really havent seen anything since then. Maybe someone has some more current info.

CJ,last year someone here posted pictures in side of the Swiss factory ( showing watch makers at work ) not sure who it was,and watch crazy larry posted some addresses in Switzerland on the same post if I recall it right. __________________

Master Edmund.J.Mede 10th Dan desert rex View Public Profile Send a private message to desert rex Find all posts by desert rex Add desert rex to Your Contacts #33 11-09-2010, 08:22 PM

Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by desert rex CJ,last year someone here posted pictures in side of the Swiss factory ( showing watch makers at work ) not sure who it was,and watch crazy larry posted some addresses in Switzerland on the same post if I recall it right.

People wearing lab coats with Invicta on them could be taken anywhere, including one of the factories who make watches under contract for Invicta. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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All you cynics/naysayers please '**** off' Quote: Originally Posted by Flyback Jim didn't weigh it, Desert Rex copied that post from another thread. And yes, Invicta does make great watches at great prices, no matter if it's all done under contract or not.

I am so tired of some folks who post on this site that always have some negative thing to say about the host of this site. Hey, I'm just say'in if you don't have anything nice OR CONSTRUCTIVE to say respectfully '**** off' so the rest of us can enjoy our watches in peace. __________________

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RaiderFan Senior Member Veteran Geek

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If there are factories in Switzerland with the Invicta name on them Eyal would point them out and do so often. I didn't say what Invicta does, contracting with Swiss firms to build their watches, is wrong. I doubt anyone thinks that Lior owns the company that builds the SWI branded watches, and don't see that as a negative. I could be wrong, have been before and will be again, but it's fairly obvious Eyal does outsource as many others do. There's nothing wrong with partnering with other companies as long as the quality control and customer service doesn't suffer as a consequence, as I believe has happened, especially with the Reserve lines. I've had too many failures involving aspects of the watches that had been checked off on those little yellow sheets of paper Eyal touted so heavily. The failure rate of my Reserve pieces was very near 100%, and is the reason I refuse to buy them new. I wait and buy from fellow Geeks far braver than me, thus allowing for another level of inspection and troubleshooting. That shouldn't be necessary, and probably wouldn't be if Invicta was totally in charge of the final assembly, testing, and inspection process. Sorry to go into this type of detail, didn't really mean it to, but I thought it necessary. I'm a huge Invicta fan, but I also tend to judge things from experience rather than looking at things as I hope they would be. The fact that I remain a fan I think says a

lot, considering. The positives still outweigh the negatives enough to keep me coming back even though my approach to them has evolved. [edit] My Invicta Reserve COSC Diver is sitting in one of my watch boxes with a totally locked up movement because I cannot come to terms with Invicta regarding its repair. I still have two years or so on the warranty, so I'm not worried yet. An attorney friend of mine is doing a bit of research for me in his spare time, and I'm waiting to hear what he has to say. He really liked the watch I gave him for looking into this for me. It's nice to have a watch collector and best friend in a position to help in a situation like this. __________________

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stormin Senior Member Senior Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by pjrosen I am so tired of some folks who post on this site that always have some negative thing to say about the host of this site. Hey, I'm just say'in if you don't have anything nice OR CONSTRUCTIVE to say respectfully '**** off' so the rest of us can enjoy our watches in peace.

What? say that more clearly. stormin View Public Profile Send a private message to stormin Find all posts by stormin Add stormin to Your Contacts #37 11-09-2010, 08:31 PM

Blade Senior Member Super Geek

Who was saying something negative in this thread? __________________

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

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Quote: Originally Posted by pjrosen I am so tired of some folks who post on this site that always have some negative thing to say about the host of this site. Hey, I'm just say'in if you don't have anything nice OR CONSTRUCTIVE to say respectfully '**** off' so the rest of us can enjoy our watches in peace.

Well my friend, I'd wager I own more Invicta watches than you do, and a reasoned discussion about whether they own brick and mortar factories in Switzerland is fair game. As to your use of profanity against me that the word censor caught, I'd suggest you learn to debate like an adult. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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chronoman56 Senior Member Veteran Geek

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So no one knows where the swiss factory is. Ok. Phil. __________________

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DIRTY_S30 Senior Member Senior Geek

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You have to remember it is not made in Switzerland only hand finished and assembled using a Swiss made movement, that is the 51% DIRTY_S30 View Public Profile Send a private message to DIRTY_S30 Send email to DIRTY_S30

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desert rex Senior Member Super Geek

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Quote: Originally Posted by Flyback People wearing lab coats with Invicta on them could be taken anywhere, including one of the factories who make watches under contract for Invicta.

I dont think owning a Swiss factory is that big of a feat for someone the size of Invicta.Deep Blue and Renato have proved to the world ( IMO ) that Swiss quality can be made elsewhere for less money.Some time ago trying to fill a government order I looked into a company over in Switzerland to out source the remainder of an order a Texas based manufacture was having trouble filling on timeline required.The quality was not as good as the US product ,but the cost was 3/4 more.not hard to figure why with the short work days from the Swiss and much less produced per hour compared to the US workers. My own opinion, I don't believe anything magical happens over there that cant be done elsewhere.Now I could be wrong but I'm willing to go on record with that statement. __________________

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BRUCER Senior Member Super Geek

Quote: Originally Posted by abduksion Does anyone know what part of Switzerland Invicta makes their watches?

It's right down the road from Newark NJ Just kidding,I couldn't tell you BRUCER View Public Profile Send a private message to BRUCER Send email to BRUCER Find all posts by BRUCER Add BRUCER to Your Contacts #43 11-09-2010, 08:45 PM

desert rex Senior Member Super Geek

Quote:

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Virginia /Washington D.C. Posts: 1,463 Real Name: Jeff Davekos

Originally Posted by pjrosen I am so tired of some folks who post on this site that always have some negative thing to say about the host of this site. Hey, I'm just say'in if you don't have anything nice OR CONSTRUCTIVE to say respectfully '**** off' so the rest of us can enjoy our watches in peace.

Flyback ( Brad ) is a well respected member of this forum.and his opinion is valued by myself and others weather in agreement on a topic or not.your comment was uncalled for.He has never been an Invicta basher,and never will be one. __________________

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Flyback Senior Member True WatchGeek

Quote: Originally Posted by desert rex

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Northern CA Posts: 19,657 Real Name: Brad

I dont think owning a Swiss factory is that big of a feat for someone the size of Invicta.Deep Blue and Renato have proved to the world ( IMO ) that Swiss quality can be made elsewhere for less money.Some time ago trying to fill a government order I looked into a company over in Switzerland to out source the remainder of an order a Texas based manufacture was having trouble filling on timeline required.The quality was not as good as the US product ,but the cost was 3/4 more.not hard to figure why with the short work days from the Swiss and much less produced per hour compared to the US workers. My own opinion, I don't believe anything magical happens over there that cant be done elsewhere.Now I could be wrong but I'm willing to go on record with that statement.

Nothing to disagree with here, except it's my belief that Invicta is a design and marketing company who produces under contract, not a brick and mortar manufacturer. And, it's important to note that there is nothing about this method that takes away anything from what they produce.

Could I be wrong, of course. But I still submit if they owned Swiss factories, they'd market the living daylights out of it, and not just by making verbal references to them. __________________

If n = the number of watches you have, then n + 1 = the number of watches you need!

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Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 211 T Burton Senior Member Senior Geek

and...

Quote: Originally Posted by Azel88 I know one is next to the cheese factory were they make baby swiss And those lovely yellow cheese boxes!

T Burton View Public Profile Send a private message to T Burton Find all posts by T Burton Add T Burton to Your Contacts #46 11-09-2010, 08:54 PM Hawk404 Member Member Geek

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The internet abhors a vacuum. Sensing one, it will rush to fill it - with speculation.

Can't be helped - it's the nature of the internet.

Swiss factories treated as family secrets with no address where one on an Alpine vacation could actually point and stare is a vacuum.

It's a vacuum because no obvious reason exists to keep such a thing secret - it's not like the watches are being built in bunkers and have to be treated like a uranium processing plant for fear the Millionsmart hoards will parachute in, cover the place with graffiti and steal all their paraffin-free truffles.

Hence no one should be surprised to see speculation. The need for it is woven into the fabric of the intrawebz. And, as Flyback has noted, there exists no reason to assume said speculation is

negative.

My personal stab at reconciling the conflicts is...

IWB bought a controlling interest in a couple Swiss contract houses. However, since they intended to maintain the contract house's relationships with existing non-Invicta customers the acquisition was in stealth mode and no visible sign of IWG involvement exists on the buildings themselves. After all, Invicta's competitors might be circumspect about continuing to use a contractor under control of their competitor. Thus, Invicta bought two Swiss factories but their ownership is a closely guarded secret.

How 'bout that? No tinfoil hat (much) required. A theory which, though possibly far-fetched, is neither offensive nor requires a conspiracy theorist.

Still, it fails to satisfy. Hopefully the more elder of the forumites could provide something more plausible.

Or Invicta could cough up the locations. Of course their decision not to would not involve anything negative - apart from the inevitable internet speculation but that's not really a negative anyway.

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reliefcp Senior Member True WatchGeek

Join Date: May 2009 Location: Everett Wa. Posts: 5,417 Real Name: C.J.

Quote: Originally Posted by pjrosen I am so tired of some folks who post on this site that always have some negative thing to say about the host of this site. Hey, I'm just say'in if you don't have anything nice OR CONSTRUCTIVE to say respectfully '**** off' so the rest of us can enjoy our watches in

peace.

Brad state the honest facts nothing more. What facts do you have? The question was where are the factories located? Do you have that answer or not? I dont see anything construtive in your post. __________________

reliefcp View Public Profile Send a private message to reliefcp Find all posts by reliefcp Add reliefcp to Your Contacts #48 11-09-2010, 09:01 PM

RaiderFan Senior Member Veteran Geek

Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: West Virginia Posts: 989 Real Name: Mike

When you can't attack the arguement, attack the person. A basic faux pas in a reasoned debate, strengthening the other's position drastically. I haven't seen anything negative in the positions taken throughout thid thread. As I said earlier, the longer you're a fan the more you learn from experience as long as you're open to doing so. Knee jerk reactions reflect either a lack of knowledge or blind faith without substance backing it having been challenged. For the most part that isn't found here, and I'm glad it's called out when it does rear its head. __________________

RaiderFan View Public Profile Send a private message to RaiderFan Find all posts by RaiderFan Add RaiderFan to Your Contacts #49 11-09-2010, 09:03 PM

Chief68 WatchGeeks Moderator True WatchGeek

Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Staten Island New York Posts: 12,824 Real Name: Nick

Well here is my opinion , If you want to discuss this do it in a respectful manner towards each other , no reason to curse at anyone state your position in a civil tone and all will be fine.

Thank You .!!!! __________________

NYPD Emergency Service Unit Chief68 View Public Profile Send a private message to Chief68 Send email to Chief68 Visit Chief68's homepage!

Find all posts by Chief68 Add Chief68 to Your Contacts #50 11-09-2010, 09:09 PM

desert rex Senior Member Super Geek

Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Virginia /Washington D.C. Posts: 1,463 Real Name: Jeff Davekos

Quote: Originally Posted by Flyback Nothing to disagree with here, except it's my belief that Invicta is a design and marketing company who produces under contract, not a brick and mortar manufacturer. And, it's important to note that there is nothing about this method that takes away anything from what

they produce. Could I be wrong, of course. But I still submit if they owned Swiss factories, they'd market the living daylights out of it, and not just by making verbal references to them.

Well as usual you make a very plausible argument that would be hard to punch holes in.Although we appear to be on opposite sides on this issue,always a pleasure to debate you. We may never truly know the answer to this one,Without Eyal under sodium pentathol Quote: Originally Posted by Hawk404 The internet abhors a vacuum. Sensing one, it will rush to fill it - with speculation.

Can't be helped - it's the nature of the internet.

Swiss factories treated as family secrets with no address where one on an Alpine vacation could actually point and stare is a vacuum.

It's a vacuum because no obvious reason exists to keep such a thing secret - it's not like the watches are being built in bunkers and have to be treated like a uranium processing plant for fear the Millionsmart hoards will parachute in, cover the place with graffiti and steal all their paraffin-free truffles.

Hence no one should be surprised to see speculation. The need for it is woven into the fabric of the intrawebz. And, as Flyback has noted, there exists no reason to assume said speculation is negative.

My personal stab at reconciling the conflicts is...

IWB bought a controlling interest in a couple Swiss contract houses. However, since they intended to maintain the contract house's relationships with existing non-Invicta customers the acquisition was in stealth mode and no visible sign of IWG involvement exists on the buildings themselves. After all, Invicta's competitors might be circumspect about continuing to use a contractor under control of their competitor. Thus, Invicta bought two Swiss factories but their ownership is a closely guarded secret.

How 'bout that? No tinfoil hat (much) required. A theory which, though possibly far-fetched, is neither offensive nor requires a conspiracy theorist.

Still, it fails to satisfy. Hopefully the more elder of the forumites could provide something more plausible.

Or Invicta could cough up the locations. Of course their decision not to would not involve anything negative - apart from the inevitable internet speculation but that's not really a negative anyway.

Very creative theory,and well written __________________

Master Edmund.J.Mede 10th Dan