尊者於友誼之橋的發表(2010) by 達賴喇嘛尊者文集

His Holiness’s Remarks at Bridge Conference Original 尊者於友誼之橋的發表

中譯者：蔣揚仁欽 I prefer from here. 我寧可從這裡 I can see better and you also can see my face better. That light too strong 我才可看得更清楚，而且您們才可更清楚地看到我的臉。那個燈太亮了。 Dear brothers and sisters and specially Dear Chinese brothers and sisters 敬愛的兄弟姊妹們，尤其是親愛的華人兄弟姊妹們， I am extremely happy here this kind of meeting, mixture with Tibetan and Chinese and some other. I notice some indian. 我真的非常高興與藏漢及其他人一起聚會此處。我注意到一些印度人也在這裡。 After all we are all same human, mentally, emotionally, we are same. 我們都是相同的人類；無論是從意識，或感受上，我們都是相同的。 And everybody really want happy life, nobody wants miserable life. that is our basic right. 而且，每一位都要快樂的人生，沒有人想要痛苦的人生。這就是我們的基本權利。 Now the question is how to achieve that. 現在的一個問題是：如何到達這個目標？ As you mentioned, just material.. no. Ultimately joyfulness and happy life so much depend on our mental attitude.. 如同您剛才所言，唯有依賴物質嗎？不是的。最終的喜悅或快樂的人生，是極須依賴著我們意識的思維。 So long mental level, too much stress too much anxiety, fear distrust then no mater how beautiful house or lot of money a person cannot be a happy person. 在意識形態裡，只要有了過多的壓力、憂慮、畏懼、或沮喪，無論再漂亮的房子或擁有再多的錢，這個人無法快樂起來。 Materially maybe poor but with full of trust, no fear, surrounding friends, no barrier. That person can be very happy person. That’s very clear. 物質上雖然有可能是貧困的，但內在卻充滿著信心、遠離畏懼；四周圍繞著朋友，沒有障礙。這種人可以成為快樂的人。這是相當明顯的。 1

As a human being, wherever I go, wherever I have opportunity to talk, I alwys stress importance of these basic human values. 身為人，無論我去何處，或我於何時有機會演講，我一直都會強調人類基本價值觀的重要性。 Not necessarily a religious person. Without religion using our common sense and common experience and then latest scientific finding, you can develop the warm heartedness. 這不一定是個宗教信仰者應注意的內容。沒有宗教信仰，但卻可透過我們的常識與經驗，以及最新的科學發現，您有辦法加強「溫柔的內心」。 Basically, the human nature is more compassionate nature, that’s clear. And also the very fact that we are social animal. 基本上，人類的本性是偏向於慈悲的本性。這是明顯的。實際上，我們都是屬於寄居社會的動物。 So, any social animal even bees or ants, without religion, without constitution, without police (laughs), there is some kind of sense of cooperation. Through that way, they survive. 因此，任何的社會動物，像似昆蟲或螞蟻，在缺乏宗教信仰、憲法、及警察（笑）的情況下，還會仍然有著某種的合作互動。透過這種合作，牠們才有辦法生存。 So, we also social animal. So each other suspect, distance, distrust. how can we develop happy human society? Impossible! 所以，我們都是寄居社會的動物。互相的猜疑、保持距離、互不相賴，怎麼能夠建立快樂的人類社會？不可能的！ So these inner values are very very essential. That’s number one. 總之，這些內在的價值是非常非常的重要。這是第一點。 And second, I am buddhist.I always stress on the importance of harmony among different religious traditions. 第二點，我是位佛教徒。我一直強調不同宗教之間和諧的重要性。 It’s really really unfortunate to have conflicts in the name of religion. Even sometimes, killing. Really unfortunate. 對於利用宗教之名義所造成的種種不幸，甚至有時殺害等，的確是個令人深感遺憾的可悲事件。 And despite different philosophies, all religions, major religions carry same sort of practice, practice of love, compassion, forgiveness, tolerance, self-discipline, so on. So all have same potential and philosophical differences are there. 2

除了不同的教義，所有的宗教，尤其是主要的傳統宗教信仰等，都堅持著相同的修行。如：愛心、慈悲、寬恕、忍辱、自律等修行，並擁有著相同的功能。雖然在教義上有著不同的區別。 Even within buddhism, Buddha taught different philosophical view because it is necessary. Even among his own students, there are different mental dispositions. 在佛陀的教義裡，佛陀說了不同的教義，這是需要的。因為，他的弟子們有著不同根器。 So, therefore he deliberately taught different philosophical views. So that it suits and benefits larger number of follower. So, that’s my number 2 commitment. 所以，佛陀謹慎地傳授了不同的教義觀點。這樣才可以真正地利益到更多有需要的弟子眾。這是我的第二志願（促進宗教之間的和諧）。 Now, here specifically talking to young students, mainly Chinese brothers sisters and Tibetans. When we look at human affairs, I feel basically nobody want problems but problems are there. 在此，特別是以華人與藏人為主的年輕學生們。我們來看人類所作的一切。我覺得，基本上沒有人會想要製造麻煩，但麻煩卻是存在的。 Many of these problems, actually, human being ourself created. So, how did that happen? 很多的麻煩都是由人類所致造。為什麼會這樣？ One side, nobody wants problem but at the same time, lot of problems are our own creation. Why? 從另個角度而言，沒有人想要麻煩；在這個同時，確實有很多的麻煩是由我們所造的。為什麼？ Our effort, in many cases, carry our emotion without knowing the reality. 很多時候，我們的努力是帶著情緒，以及對於實際情況的不了解。 So, our efforts become unrealistic approach. So, Unrealistic approach will not bring satisfactory results. 這也是為什麼我們的努力無法符合實際的情況。這種不符合實際的做法往往無法產生令人滿足的結果。 Why did this unrealistic approach happen? 為什麼會有這種不符合實際的做法呢？ Because of our perception, which is much based on appearances, not the reality. 因為我們的知覺，主要是以「所看到的」為主，並非以「所存在的」為主。

So, many problems that we are facing today including ecological problems. There is new reality which usually appear unless you study very carefully. 所以，今日所遭遇的許多問題，包括生態環境等，都是現代才形成的新狀況。這種並非可以肉眼所看到的問題必須得透過仔細的學習才能得知的。 So, there is gap between reality and appearances. So, it’s very very important to carry thorough research about the reality. 所以，「所看到的」與「所存在的」之間有著距離。為了了解有關「所存在的」內涵，必須透過仔細的研究。這是相當相當重要的。 In order for your research to be scientific, your mind must be open, neutral. 為了讓您的研究更符合科學的精神，您必須保持開放及正直的心態。 Not like some of the party research work, where the first goal is party power and then carry research. Its very very biased. You cannot find (the truth). 不能像黨內要求的工作，先設定了對黨有利的目標，再作研究。這樣會成為了相當嚴重的偏見，讓您無法找到實相。 Like genuine scientists, their mind completely open. 要像個真正的科學家，持有著完全開放的心態。 Even Buddhist practitioner, when we carry investigation, we do not rely on Buddha’s own words, we must be open. Then, carry investigation, very objective. 就連身為佛教徒的我們去研究佛陀教義的時候，我們也不會完全依賴著佛陀所說的一切。我們必須得保持開放的心態去研究，這樣才能公正。 When Deng Xiaoping (put forth) this great slogan, Seeking truth from facts. Its wonderful. Fact must be genuine fact. 鄧小平的一個偉大口號：「實事求是」。這是相當棒的！但是，此實事必須得真正發生的「實事」。 So, now I always used to tell, whenever I have the opportunity to talk to students or young people. 因此，當我有機會的時候，我時常對說學生們或年輕的一代說道： Older generations, I think including myself, way of thinking is still old thinking. Today’s reality is much changed but our perception is still old way of thinking. So, automatically, there is gap. 「今日的現況已經有了很大的改變。可是，老的一代，也包括我在內，我們的想法偏向舊時的想法。自然地產生了很大的代溝。」 So, the new generations like you; now, it is your responsibility to carry thorough study and investigate about the reality. Then, we must carry our act according to new reality. 4

年輕的一代，像是在場的諸位，您們有責任去學習並研究現代的「實事」。於是，根據最新的「實事」，再去決定如何應對。 I think, to some extent, like the spirit of European Union, under the leadership of Dicole (?) and Artner (?) just after Second World War. 從某種程度，我覺得歐盟於第二次世界大戰之後，在狄克邏及阿得那的領導下， Their thinking was in a very broad way and the individual, nation, their sovereignty not much important. What is important is the common interest. 由於他們的遠見，遠離了個己的利益、以及個己的統治權，他們認為這不再重要了。更最要的是：什麼才是大家共同的利益。 One of my tutor, that I consider my teacher about Quantum physics, one German professor. A very well-known and very respected professor, prof. Von Weizächer. 我有位個人的指導教授，他的名字叫：翁維知切。是位相當著名的量子力學物理權威，是位德國教授。 His younger brother was the German president at one time. I think he is still alive but my teacher, Von Weizächer is now no longer with us. 他的弟弟曾經擔任過德國的總理。我想他仍活著。不過我的教授---教授翁維知切已經不在這世上，不再與我們同在了。 One time, he told me that when he was young, in German eye, every French is their enemy. In the French eye as well. 有次，教授跟我說：「當他年輕的時候，所有法國人在德國人的眼裡，都是敵人。相同的，法國人也有著相同的感覺。」 Then, I think around the late 80s or early 90s, he mentioned, nowadays that kind of attitude or perception completely changed. Now, between German and French, just like neighbors, brothers and sisters because their common interest became very real. So, the concept of the European Union was established. 之後，我想大約在80年代或90年代末端吧，他又說了：「現在，這種敵對的看法早已不再了。今天德法的關係好比親兄弟般，因為他們的共同目標已經變為了真實。所以建立了真正歐洲的『聯盟』。」 In India, one great half saint, half politician, Bino Baba ji. 在印度，有位半聖人，半政治家，名為比挪巴巴。 I think in early 50s, he expressed the concept of ABC, A for Afghanistan, B Burma and C Ceylon (Sri Lanka). 我想大約在五零年代的時候，他說道了ＡＢＣ的概念。Ａ指的是阿富汗。Ｂ指的是緬甸。Ｃ指的是斯里蘭卡。

Then India and Pakistan all united in some kind of Federation. That’s his vision. 之後，印度與巴基斯坦聯盟建立聯邦政府。這是他的看法。 If that vision materialized, I think Afghanistan and Pakistan would have been much stable. 如果這種想法被實現，我想阿富汗與巴基斯坦的情況會更加地穩定。 Among these countries, India is the biggest and the most populated nation. 在這些國家當中，印度是最大的國家，而且擁有著最多人口的國家。 So, India has been very stable for the last 60 to now nearly 70 years because there is freedom, democracy and rule of law. 印度有著民主自由、以法治國的制度，這讓印度在過去的六七十年中一直保持穩定。 Therefore, we must act according to the reality. That’s very important. 總之，我們的「所作」必須符合確實的「所在」。這是相當重要的。 So, now Tibet issue. Firstly, People’s Republic of China as a whole. The most populated nation on this earth and with long history, cultured people. 現在，有關西藏的問題。首先，以整體而言，中國人民共和國是個文化歷史悠久，人口最多的國家。 I usually tell my Chinese friends. Chinese people are hardworking and realistic. 我通常會稱讚華人朋友們：「漢人是個努力耐勞、實事求是的種族。」 The reason is that wherever they live, eventually they create Chinatown. 這也是為什麼無論他們人在何處，他們都會建蓋「中國城」（或「唐人街」）。 Because they are hardworking and they easily adapt to the new situation while also keeping their culture. So, Chinatowns develop. 因為華人的耐苦耐勞的不屈精神，他們能夠容易地適應當地的生活，同時堅持著他們原有的文化。所以形成了「中國城」（或「唐人街」）。 Sometimes, I tell my Indian friends. There is one Indian friend there, one Punjabi. Now, Indians should also create India town. You have very rich cultural heritage. Wherever there is Indian community, you must develop India town. So, like that Japanese town or Korean town. 這裡有位錫克教的印度朋友。有時候，我會跟印度的朋友們說：「現在，印度人需要創造印度城。因為您們擁有著相當豐富的文化遺產。無論印度社區在何處，都必要去建立印度城。」同樣的，日本城及韓國城也應如此。

Particularly like America, multi-cultured people. Lot of Spanish speaking, lot of different European speaking people there, lot of polish. Its wonderful. 特別像似美國，眾多文化人匯聚的地方。這裡有著許多西班牙文的使用者，以及來自歐洲各種不同語言的國家，也有許多波蘭人。真的很好。 So in any way, that biggest populated nation now already carrying some important role. 總之，這個人口最多的國家現在已經承擔了某些相當重要的責任。 However, unfortunately so far. People’s Republic of China carry some role, some responsibility but fail to bring trust from neighboring states or rest of the world. 然而，不幸的，一些由中國人民共和國負擔的責任無法獲取鄰國及其他國家的信賴。 And also, many nations including United States sometimes they stress more importance on their national interest rather than common interest. 同時，許多的國家，包括美國，只重視個己的利益，卻忽略了共同互相的利益。 Look at the Copenhagen summit about ecology. 我們來看哥本哈根首腦會議中，有關生態環境問題。 The very reason for the failure of that summit is the concerned people, concerned govt. stress importance of their national interest, national economic development rather than global level interest. 導致那個會議失敗的理由，主要是因為重視自己的人民、自己的政府、及自己國家與生態環境的利益，並非以全球的共同利益為主。 So, now PRC, in order to carry more effective role, respect from the rest of the world is very essential. 因此，現在的中國為了能夠扮演更具有影響力的角色，獲得其他國家的尊重是相當重要的。 For that, openness, as you mentioned, transparency without censorship, openness; These are very essential and eventually, rule of law, very essential. 為此，如您所說，開放、不需審查的透明化、依法治國等，這些都是相當重要的。 Democracy, sometimes I have little reservation. Immediate democratic system may bring a lot of chaos like former Soviet Union. 民主體制，有時我會保持疑惑的態度。就如前蘇聯般，突發的民主制度可能會造成更多的混亂。 So, gradual change or democratization, I think, is the most suitable. 所以，逐漸演變形成的民主體制或改變，我覺得才會更為適合。

However, transparency without censorship and distorted information is a very important matter. 總言之，不需審查的透明化，以及遠離扭曲事實的訊息，這些都是重要的元素。 So far, that is lacking. 至今，這些都是缺乏的。 Therefore, unnecessary problem, with neighbouring states, some suspicion, distrust and within the country, millions of Han brothers and sisters are also suffering, 所以，不須要的許多問題，像鄰國間的疑慮、國內間的不信賴等，導致上百萬的漢族同胞們飽嘗著痛苦。 And also other minorities like Uighur and Tibetans, distrust and gaps. 同時，與少數民族間的不信賴與相互間的距離；如：維吾爾族及藏族等。 And the han people side, it is very understandable. 還有，對漢族同胞們，下述的內容是可以理解的。 They (han people) always fed government propaganda through which they created this impression that the Central govt. or the Communist Party, firstly liberated Tibet. And secondly, poured lot of money in Tibet but when some Tibetan demonstrations take place, they (han people) naturally feel “oh! We are so kind to them but they never show appreciation. The Tibetans are really backward and stupid.” Its understandable. 您們（漢族同胞們）一直被政府媒體灌輸個印象，您們認為：中央政府或共產黨解放了西藏，支援了許多金錢在藏區。當藏人抗議的時候，您們卻認為：「喔！我們對他們這麼好，但藏人都不懂得感恩。藏人真是愚蠻及落後啊！」這種想法是可被理解的。 But if you ask a Tibetan in a very detailed way, then, of course there are many developments. 但是，如果您詢問位藏人有關更細節的內容，當然，於藏區裡的確有許多的建設進展。 Like the late Panchen Lama, just before his sudden death, he publicly mentioned, 又像前世班禪喇嘛在突然圓寂前，公開演講地說道： since the time the liberation army came, there have been a lot of development but on the other hand, there were immense pain and suffering. So, the positive development cannot match the amount of the suffering. He mentioned publicly. 「自從解放軍來了之後，雖然有許多的進展，但從另一個角度來講，也有著無法測量的災難與痛苦。所以，正面的進展根本無法相比負面的災難。」他曾經公開地說道。

So, I think, in the last 30 years number of Tibetans come from Tibet. 總之，我想大約在過去的30年內，許多藏人從藏地逃了出來。 We met young people, old people. Farmers, nomads, educated, communist party members, retired officials, old party members and people who are still working. 我們遇到了年輕人、老人、農夫、牧民、受教育者、退休的公務人員、前共產黨員、以及現任的共產黨員等。 We met varierty of Tibetans. Almost 99 percent of these Tibetans whom we met had tears (in their eyes). Lot of sadness. Why? 我們遇到了各樣的藏人。這些藏人裡，有百分之九十九以上都是眼中飽含著淚水、非常地悲傷來見我，為什麼會這樣？ One example, one Tibetan, I think, 5 years ago, I met in south India. He did not dare to come to Dharamsala because people say that there are some Chinese spies there. Communist spies. 例如：我想大概在五年前吧。在印度南部，我遇到了位藏人。他不敢來達蘭薩拉，因為有人說那裡有許多的中國共產的臥底間諜。 Anyway, there are some indications that anything that happens in Dharamsala, the information is immediately received in some office in Lhasa. 這意味著在達蘭薩拉發生的任何事件，馬上就會傳送到拉薩的某個辦公室。 But I always welcome any spy from the party. Most welcome. 可是，我一直歡迎來自黨的臥底間諜。非常歡迎。 We have nothing to hide. Everything is transparent. 我們沒有什麼需要隱藏的。每件事都是透明化的。 So, that person came to see me in south India. Then, I inquired about his livelihood and other things. So, he is a professional and his salary is very good. 於是，那位藏人來到印度南部看我。我詢問了有關他的生活以及其他。他是位專家，而且他的薪水相當高。 His housing/accomodation very good. And education for his children also very good. No problems and all the facilities are there. 他有個相當好的住房，他的孩子也受到了高等的教育。沒有生活上的問題，擁有一切物資。 Then, he mentioned “ I am Tibetan but mentally some kind of overwhelming feeling.” When he mentioned that, there were tears (in his eyes). 於是他說：「我是藏人。但在精神上卻有著某種壓倒性的感覺。」當他這麼表達的時候，他的眼中飽含著淚水。

So, the Chinese brothers and sisters should know that. Just providing shelter, clothes and facilities is not sufficient. Freedom is very very essential. 因此，漢族的兄弟姊妹們，您們要知道：「光提供房子、衣服、及物資是不夠的；自由是相當相當重要的。」 Now, since Cheng Qiyuan was appointed as party secretary, the curriculum in schools were changed. 自從陳奎元出任黨委書記後，學校裡的教課書隨著改變。 Some time back, I met some Tibetans who are actually working in Tibetan universities in Lhasa. 在這之後，我遇見了些在拉薩的西藏大學裡工作的藏人。 So, they told me that before Cheng Qiyuan came, in Tibetan studies, there were some classical texts. Since Cheng Qiyuan adopt these new policies, all these changes. 他們說：「陳奎元之前，在藏學的教課書裡，還有些傳統的內容可供學習。但自從陳奎元實行了新的政策後，所有都變了。」 After all, in one party meeting, he mentioned “The ultimate source of threat of Tibet becoming separate from mainland China is Tibetan Buddhist faith.” 之後，在一個黨會議裡，他說：「西藏從中國分裂的最終威脅來自藏族們的佛法信仰。」 So, accordingly, he laid down some policies in the monasteries or nunneries, a lot of restrictions and also political education. 於是，照應地，在寺院或尼院裡，他實行了一些政策、多種限制，及政治教育。 So, that is the actual seed of 2008 crisis. 這才是2008年(314)事件的種子。 And also, a lot of restriction on party members or officials; they were banned to put some spiritual statues in their homes. 不只如此，許多的限制，像黨員或公務人員必須得捨棄自家的佛像等。 These are the causes of the problem. So, you should know these things. 這些都是問題的起源。您們應該要了解。 And since the 2008 crisis happened, I always ask the Chinese govt. “please send people, some sort of researchers. Go to Tibet. And foreigners also. 自從2008年事件後，我一直呼籲中國政府派遣更多人，像研究員般，到藏地作實地勘察。同樣的，外國人也是如此。

Now, here also I want to tell you American students, go to Tibet. 現在，在這裡，我也想告訴您們美國的學生們，去藏地！ Even though you may not speak Tibetan but if you can speak some Chinese, you can communicate. 雖然您們可能不懂藏語，但如果您們能夠說中國話，仍然可以溝通的。 Go there and do thorough research whether things are as Chinese Communist govt. says Good and beautiful or are they according to our information – difficult. 去到那裡，仔細勘察。察看是否真的像中共政府美化般的好，或是像我們得到的資訊般的困難。 You must research on the spot. I often tell publicly, if things are really nice as party propaganda says, then our information is wrong and our whole thinking based on these wrong information is a mistake. 您必須去實地勘察。我時常對大眾說：「如果真的像中共宣傳般，我們的資訊是錯誤的、我們的想法根據錯誤訊息的話， So, we must apologize to world community and particularly to our han brothers and sisters, including the communist govt. 我們絕對會像世界組織公開道歉，尤其是對我們的漢族兄弟姊妹，包括中共政府； If things are different, then there are a lot of resentment, a lot of greivances which should be made clear, including the Chinese officials. 如果的確有困難，有著眾多的怨恨，充滿著民眾的不滿，這是必須要澄清的，包括由中共當局來澄清。 I think when Hu Yaobang visited Lhasa in 1980, before his visit, he sent some of his trusted people, about 30 or 40 and research what was happening there. 胡耀邦在1980年時去藏地勘察。在他到達之前，他先派遣了三、四十位可信的人，去實地研究當地的狀況。 When he reached Lhasa, he already got the clear information. 他到了拉薩時，他早已有了明確的資訊。 So, when the officials produced the official report, he dismissed and said “listen, I know already” and then he scolded those officials. 當這些政府官員呈報地方政績的時候，他解散了會議並說道：「我早已知道了。」並責罵當地的官員。 I think that’s very true. Recently, Wen Jiabao wrote an article mentioning or praising Hu Yaobang sort of conduct.

我覺得這個做法相當符合實際。最近，溫家寶寫了篇文章（全名：再回興義億耀邦），並稱讚了胡耀邦的一些實施方法。 It also mentioned some Chinese provinces when Hu Yaobang visited. He sent some of his trusted people including Wen Jiabao to villages at night to meet villagers and listen directly. Not relying on official report. 此文又說道：「胡耀邦勘察中國的某些省州之前，他先會派遣一些他的親信。胡耀邦也會趁夜晚之際與當地居民會面與談話。不會依賴官方報告而已。」 So, I also mentioned this to some of my Indian friends. Sometimes, the official report maybe biased on the nice side. 所以，我也對我的印度朋友們說：「有時候，官方的報告可能一位地偏向美化。」 So, should not rely completely on official report. They should go to villages and the rural areas to see what is really going on. 不應該完全地相信官方報告。應該要去勘察偏遠的當地居民，去看到底發生了什麼。」 I suggested that to some of my Indian friends also, some politicians. 我是這麼建議於我的一些印度朋友，一些政治家。 Therefore, you as the younger generation, please think. If things are not as rosy as Chinese Communist propaganda say, then the govt. must accept the reality and then should start realistic approach. 因此，在場的年輕朋友們，請多多地思考。如果，事情並非像中共官方媒體所宣傳般的樂觀，中共當局應該要接受事實，並採取符合「實事」的相關途徑。 That, I want to share with you. Then, Things can be easily solved. That’s all. Thank you. 我想要與您們分享的就是這些。這樣的話，事情就能迎刃而解。到此。謝謝。 Let me say few words that I forgot there. 我忘記了幾句話，請讓我表達。 Since 2008 problem happened, a number of han brothers and sisters really showing a lot of anger. 自從2008年的問題發生後，有許多的漢族兄弟姊妹們真的相當地生氣。 March 10th crisis happened and then April was my visit to America and May visit to Europe. 3月14號事件後，於當年的四月我遊訪美國，五月去了歐洲。 Wherever I go, some demonstrations by Chinese students. 無論我去何處，都有漢族學生們抗議。

Initially, few hundreds. Then,gradually less and less. 一開始有上百位。之後呢，逐漸地減少了。 One occasion, in Rochester, I met some Chinese students. Actually I wanted to meet them. I think around 6 or 7 finally arranged a meeting. 有一次，在羅契斯特市，我遇到了一些漢族學生。實際上，我當時想要會見他們。最後，我想我大約跟六或七位學生會面。 A lot of anger. Fortunately, between us, one big table otherwise they may do that.. really! Too much emotion. 他們相當地生氣。好險，有個很大的桌子在兩方的中間。否則的話，他們可能會... 真的。過分的情緒化了。 So, they wouldn’t listen to my explanation. Out of 5 – 6, two of them were willing to listen but the remaining, no. Just showing their irritation and anger like that. 他們完全不想聽我的解釋。在五到六位學生中，只要兩位想要聽我的解釋，但其他卻不想。只想表達他們的憤怒而已。 So, from that time, we try special effort. Meeting with more Chinese and including some local Chinese media. 從此，我們嘗試了特別的努力。多多安排與華人們見面，其中也包括當地的華人們。 Then, eventually that kind of angry phase reduced. 於是，逐漸地，這種嗔怒的現象減少中。 Nowadays, before my visit some circulation that demonstration will happen but actually nothing happened. 最近，在我進行訪問之前，會有要進行抗議的聲音，都未真正地發生。 So, it seems officials want more demonstration but individuals now do not want to come to demonstrate. 這看起來像似政府當局希望有抗議的聲音，不過群眾們不想抗議的樣子。 It happened once in Netherland and one in University of Northern Iowa. 有ㄧ次我去荷蘭，以及另ㄧ次去北愛荷華大學時， There also Before my visit there, some circulations on internet that demonstration will happen but actual day, nothing happened. 透過網路，準備在我訪問前進行抗議，但並沒有真正地發生。 So, these are some signs of better understanding. 所以，我覺得這是個更加釐清的好跡象。

But meantime, there I met with some Chinese students who are still little bit cautious. 同時，我遇到了一些有著疑慮表態的漢族學生。 Too much cautious and even refuse to take picture because of their fear. 由於過分的疑慮及他們的畏懼，甚至還拒絕拍照。 So, we ask Tibetans wherever they live and where more Chinese students also there, please set up some kind of friendship group and familiarize with each other. 因此，我們呼籲藏人們主動地去跟當地的漢族學生們建立友誼，讓雙方能互相地了解。 Then, these negative feelings due to misunderstandings will not take place. So, I am very happy that here some Tibetan students and han students together. I am very happy. 於是，由於錯誤理解的這些負面感覺才不會產生。因此，我現在非常地高興能夠在這裡，與藏、漢學生們一起。我真的很高興。 Qn1. Thank you, the Dalai Lama. I had heard recently that you had pointed out that you are a Marxist which is the socialist. My question is what will you do to reach (spread) the idea of socialism inside Tibet? Thank you. 問題一：謝謝您，達賴喇嘛。我最近聽說您自稱您是位馬克思主義者，也是社會主義者。我的問題是您如何讓社會主義的想法傳流到藏地？謝謝。 HH: I think firstly genuine socialism must develop within mainland China. 尊者：我覺得，首先，真正的社會主義必須從中國內地裡建立。 Then, genuine socialism can develop in the other minority area. 於是，真正的社會主義才可能從少數民族中建立。 Look at China. Although I always notice 4 eras – Chairman Mao’s era, Deng Xiaoping’s era, Xiang Zemin’s era and Hu Jintao’s era. Mao’s era – 回看中國。我一直覺得（中國經歷了）四個時代：毛主席時代、鄧小平時代、江澤民時代、以及胡錦濤時代。 I know Chairman Mao very well and Chairman Mao almost considered me as his son. I also consider him as my father. Very nice. 我跟毛主席很熟。他幾乎把我視為他的兒子，我也視為他像似我的父親般。真的很好。 So, often during a meal or some banquet, Chairman Mao always brings me on his side. He would feed me. 所以，在晚餐或宴會的時候，毛主席一直都會把我帶在身旁，而且他會喂我。

So, one way I feel very proud. Chairman Mao feeding me. One way, a little bit cautious because he is often coughing. 雖然我會感到驕傲，因為他喂我。同時，我會有點疑惑，因為他時常咳嗽。 So, you see through his chopsticks, I may get some sort of germs. So, in anyway, I feel at that time.. 當您看到他的筷子的時候，我會覺得我可能會被傳染。總之，那是當時我的感受。 I think the concept of (something in Chinese「Jamyang: I think it was 大團結. It sounds ta ton je, and it means a big union」), final sort of target, that also worldwide. 我覺得，大家共同追求的最終目標，所謂的「大團結」，的確是個長遠的目標。 Then, through secretary, under the leadership of communist party, that is sort of goals and methods and all the party members at that time full of enthusiasm. 於是，在共產黨的領導下，透過黨書記，所有的人充滿著熱忱有關這種的目標與途徑。 I noticed.. I spent about 5 or 6 months in Peking. Then remaining two months, I toured many provinces. 我在北京待了五六個月，剩餘的兩個月，我到了許多省州。 So, I really admired these communist party members. Leaders and those party members were really dedicated. 我真的很嚮往這些共產黨員。無論是領導或其他黨員，真的都無私地奉獻。 No concern about money, no concern about their personal life. 沒有對金錢的想法，也沒有想到自己個人的生活。 So, at that time I was very attracted towards Marxism. So, I asked the concerned officials, I want to join Chinese Communist party. 因此，當時我真的完全被馬克思主義所吸引。我還要求加入中國共產黨。 So, still I am Marxist. There is no question. 至今，我仍是個馬克思主義者，這是毋庸置疑的。 Socialist, Marxist but not Leninist. Lenin Zhuyi too much emphasis on power, cruelty 社會主義，馬克思主義，但決非列寧主義。因為列寧主義強調權力，很殘暴。 and Mao TseTung also I doubt. In early periods – yes, Mao Tse Tung’s thinking wonderful. Really genuine leader of revolutionary, wonderful! 還有毛主席，我也有疑惑。在早期的時候，毛主席的想法真的很好。實在是為傑出的革命家。非常好！

But then around 1956-57, I think power ruined him. That’s very clear. 但是，大約在 1956-57，我想權力害了他。這是相當明顯的。 In any way, the next era – Deng Xiaoping era. 還有，接下來的另一個時代 - 鄧小平時代。 Now, Deng Xiaoping placed emphasis on people’s living standard. 鄧小平強調群眾的生活水準。 Economy is more important , more urgent and Ideology now ok. 經濟是最主要的、急需要的。現在思想的部份已經夠了。 So, he had the courage to follow capitalism. 他（鄧小平）有勇氣去跟隨資本主義。 That really brought big change in People’s Republic of China. 這導致了中國人民共和國極大的轉變。 So, now middle class increasing. Then, millionaires and billionaires also there. 中產階級的人越來越多，百萬及億萬富翁的人有也了。 According to some newspaper that mentioned that after United States, the biggest number of billionaire is now in China. 根據一些新聞報導，中國僅次於美國，是個億萬富翁最多的國家。 So, that is Deng Xiaoping era, it really turned China and also these young students, bright students now have the opportunity to go to the west and carry on their studies. Wonderful! 鄧小平時代改變了中國。讓這些許多的學生，聰明的學生有機會去學習。真好！ Then, Xiang Zemin era. Now, new reality. You see the middle class and also rich class became very influential in the society. 接下來的另一個時代，江澤民時代。根據新變化的「實事」，您可以看到中產階級以及高產階級對社會有一定的影響力。 So, the communist party no longer the party of working class and the idea of the Three Represents came about. 因此，共產黨再也不是勞工民眾的黨派，而有了「三個代表」的思想。 Then, Hu Jintao. Because of liberalism in economy field, now gaps started appearing. 之後，胡錦濤。由於經濟的開放，逐漸形成了（貧富間的）距離。 Latong Remin and Lao Pexing and those billionaires now had big differences. 16

勞動人民及老百姓與那些億萬富翁之間有了很大的距離。 Huge gaps between rich and poor. And also differences and gaps between coastal areas and interior areas. 貧富的距離、沿海與內陸的距離等。 And then certain sort of rights guarantee now some change like education, medical facility, health – very sort of expensive. 還有一些像似教育、醫療條件、以及健康等改變，使得花費更多的支出。 Therefore, Hu Jintao sees the new reality and now need special efforts for promotion of harmonious society. 所以，胡錦濤看到了新的「實事」後，需要特別努力的是「共建共享和諧社會」。 So, these shows that one communist party, the same party has the ability to act according to new reality. 這些跡象表現，同個黨派，但卻會依據當時不同的「實事」而去做出相對的決策。 So, I am hopeful. Generally speaking, I am hopeful. 因此，我保持很大的希望。一般而言，我仍期望著。 Now, I always make clear and express wherever I meet Chinese brothers and sisters. 無論何處，當我遇到了漢族的兄弟姊妹們，我一直明確地表達。 I always mention that now harmony ultimately depends or genuine harmony must come from heart. Not just smiles. 我一直說：「和諧並須依賴著真正的和諧。和諧來自內心，並非笑容而已。」 So, for harmony from here, from within, you need trust. 為了能和諧，互相的信賴是需要的。 In order to bring trust, openness, transparency, freedom of speech and then eventually rule of law is very essential. 為了能互相信賴，開放、透明化、言論自由、以及以法治國等，這些都是必要的元素。 So, Harmony under fear, under police watching, how can it develop? 怎麼可能在畏懼下、公安的監督下建立和諧？ And in some cases, supposed to bring harmony by the use of gun, it is impossible. 或者在一些情況，如：利用槍枝帶來的和諧更是不可能的。

So, genuine harmony must come from heart. There, trust is the key factor. Fear is just opposite. 真正的和諧來自內心，互信是個重要的環扣；畏懼剛好顛倒。 Sometimes, unfortunately totalitarian regimes, not only China, look at North Korea even worse. 有時候，專制的國家，不只中國，北韓更糟糕。 The rule of terror – that actually destroys human faith, human trust. Without trust, how can we develop human friendship? 以畏治國只會摧毀人類的信仰、人類的信賴。沒有了信賴，我們如何建立友誼？ So, what was his question? 您的問題是什麼？ And also we need lot of research work. 所以，我們必須要作許多更多的研究。 Just a slogan of socialism failed in former Soviet Union and many of the former eastern European countries. 只有社會主義的口號，像是過去的蘇聯，以及過去的東歐國家等。 Their economy suffered stagnation. So, there is something wrong. 他們慘遭了經濟的困難。所以，這種做法是錯的。 I think socialism like Sweden and some of these Scandinavian countries and also to some extent, Austria very few millionaires, very equal. 我覺得，社會主義，像似瑞典及堪的納維亞的國家等，以及奧地利，只有非常少許的百萬富翁，相當平等。 So, with freedom, with rule of law, some sort of socialist system can develop. 只要有自由、以法治國，在某種程度上社會主義是可被實現的。 So, socialist system centralized is difficult. Look at former Soviet Union and also until Deng Xiaoping came, China also difficult. 以自我為中心的社會主義思想是相當困難的。看看前蘇聯，或鄧小平之前的中國，都曾陷入困境。 Even the great leap forward, these are aiming towards building genuine socialist and public commune (remin Gongxie). 縱使有了突飛的進展，但都應該為了建立真正的社會主義及人民關係。

It is supposed to be building true socialism but that kind of narrow minded thinking of socialism will not go with human nature. 應該建立真正的社會主義，而這種心胸狹小的社會主義無法與人類的本性並行。 So, some of my friend when I mentioned that I am Marxist, then some scholars from the west say that very Marxist idea is unscientific. 當我跟我許多的朋友說道：「我是位馬克思主義者。」。於是，這些西方專家會說：「真正的馬克思思想是不符合實際的。」 That maybe a little bit too extreme. I still feel that Marxism is better. 我會覺得這（種回覆）可能是個偏見。我仍覺得馬克思主義更好。 You see Capitalism, no question of equal distribution. In Marxist economy, the main concern is equal distribution. 您看，在資本主義中，沒有所謂「共同資產」的理念。但馬克思的經濟（概念）裡，最主要的想法以「共同資產」為主。 So, there is moral ethics in economy. And then also for Buddhists, the Marxism emphasis or has the idea of self-creation. 所以，在（馬克思的）經濟（概念）裡更多的道德觀念。像佛教般，馬克思主義強調「個己」的思想。 That is very similar to Buddhist way of thinking. No god, no creator but ourselves. 這是與佛教的想法相同的。沒有神、造物主，但只有自己。 Qn2. I have two questions. First, Chinese govt. has signed UN document on economic, cultural and social rights. 問題二：我有兩個問題。第一，中國政府已經在聯合國文件裡簽下了經濟、文化，及社會權利。