70 — Klasien van de Zandschulp

KLASIEN VAN DE ZANDSCHULP AFFECT LAB

MAKING

MEANINGFUL CONNECTIONS WITH TECHNOLOGY

Photo : Anisa Xhomaqi

KLASIEN VAN DE ZANDSCHULP AFFECT LAB

WHAT’S KEEPING YOU BUSY AT THE MOMENT?

Well, actually, we were supposed to have a big project launch today. It’s an immersive audio experience and walk in a neighbourhood, that brings you into the future of Amsterdam. But today, it’s stormy in Amsterdam. It’s going to rain the whole day. So last minute, we decided to postpone it.

THAT’S A SHAME, WHAT’S THE PROJECT ABOUT?

The project is based on stories about flash delivery services by apps like Getir, Flink and Zapp. These app-based companies that deliver groceries 24 hours a day, within 10 minutes. It’s a fictional story which asks how will the city look like in this future, when one of these companies has the power to redesign the city?

In real life, one of these services had a 'dark store' - where they keep all the groceries - based in one of these neighbourhoods. The neighbours were really terrorised by all the electric bikes flying about and the midnight deliveries.

In the end, the dark store was forced to close, so you can walk through that neighbourhood now and even look inside the empty dark store. The stories of the neighbours are interwoven into this project.

SINCE THE COVID PANDEMIC, I THINK HAVE ALL BECOME

WILLING TO CHANGE AND ADAPT.

YOU MUST HAVE TO BE PRETTY FLEXIBLE WITH YOUR PLANNING?

I have worked on lots of projects that happen outside, in public spaces. I love doing it and I’m usually quite lucky. But today, we were unlucky.

But, I must say that, since the COVID pandemic, I think we have all become a bit more flexible, more willing to change and adapt.

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MORE FLEXIBLE, MORE

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CITY EATING ITSELF (IN LESS THAN 10 MINUTES) Participant looks inside the former dark store. The dark store was forced to close after a period of terrorising the neighbourhood..

Photo : Anisa Xhomaqi

THINK WE BECOME A BIT MORE CHANGE

LIMITS ARE ALSO A TRIGGER FOR CREATIVE INNOVATION.

A CITY EATING ITSELF (IN LESS THAN 10 MINUTES)

At the end of the experience the participant is invited to write a postcard to Chomp HQ. These messages are used as part of the research for the upcoming publication.

Photos : Anisa Xhomaqi

ALSO CREATIVE INNOVATION.

HOW HAS THAT FED INTO YOUR WORK?

It was a really interesting period, actually. It was limiting, of course, but limits are also a trigger for creative innovation.

The first thing I found really fascinating was how people connected more through the screen. That inspired me to create new work that could help people make more interesting and

intimate connections through the screen, because that was our ‘new reality’. Then, when we were suffering from ‘screen fatigue’, that was a trigger for us to make a work that does not include the screen. Something more audio based, but still online, and you can still do it from your home. This project was called ‘The Gossip’ and used an old-fashioned telephone line for people to connect and share stories.

The Gossip was one of the projects that started our research into ‘hybrid spaces’. When some locations could open up again it was with limited audiences, and a new reality. People were not traveling as much anymore due to the pandemic, or because they are worried of climate change. But also, they had become used to attending events online, or they couldn’t face the costs of attending physically.

MANY EVENTS TREAT PHYSICAL AND VIRTUAL ATTENDANCE LIKE IT’S THE SAME THING,

YOU WERE LOOKING TO MAKE THE BEST OF THAT NEW REALITY?

It’s really interesting to look into how events can work as hybrid spaces, where people can join online and on-site. How can you create an interactive and interesting experience?

Most of the time, if you join an event online, you might just be watching through a camera, nobody is looking at you, or talking to you, so you don’t feel part of the conversation, or the audience.

Many events treat physical and virtual attendance like it’s the same thing, but it’s very different. And you can design for that. You can make someone who joins online feel present, like they’re participating. You can maybe even give them a feeling of agency over how a certain part of the event unfolds.

Meanwhile, people on site can also connect to someone online and feel like they’re networking. So yeah, this whole research program started up because of these changes.

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BUT IT’S VERY DIFFERENT. AND YOU CAN DESIGN FOR THAT. "

HYBRID SPACES

A hybrid experiment: connecting online and physical audiences in a dance game.

Photo : Ans Schuitema

THERE’S A WHOLE NEW CREATIVE FIELD COMING UP AROUND THE EXPERIENCE DESIGN OF A HYBRID EVENT.

CAN YOU SEE THIS WORK LEADING TO A BETTER VERSION OF SKYPE OR ZOOM AT SOME POINT?

Yeah, definitely. There’s already lots of tech conferences, and design conferences, that are becoming more critical towards technologies like Skype or Zoom, which are more commercially oriented.

We are experimenting with the way someone can experience an event and feel equally as present, online or on site. You don’t need to see a face or need a webcam to feel present. There are many other ways. So I see there’s a whole new creative field coming up around the experience design for hybrid events.

IS YOUR 'TOOLKIT FOR THE INBETWEEN' RELATED TO THIS?

I would say yes. The toolkit for the inbetween was born out of the same need – the need to connect virtual and physical spaces. It’s a collaboration between 'The Hmm,' and 'MU', which is a hybrid arthouse in Eindhoven, in the Netherlands, and affect lab. Together we provide the research and design into hybrid experiences which will be translated into an online toolkit.

We feel it’s a really exciting space between the online and on site experience.

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HYBRID SPACES

Photo : Ans Schuitema

THE REAL AND VIRTUAL WORLDS, WHICH YOU PULL TOGETHER, SEEM TO BE DIVERGING EVERYWHERE ELSE, DON’T THEY?

That divergence is what interested me in trying to connect these worlds.

Back in the day, when I started working as an interactive artist, smartphones were just arriving. And it didn’t take

DUODISCO

There is only one person who is listening to the same song, find the person dancing to the same rhythm and tunes!

long before, if you’re on public transport, everyone was just looking at their phones.

They had no contact with the other people on the bus or train.

For me, that was a trigger, because I saw this mobile device as a very interesting way to connect people too. In fact, the people on the bus are probably very sociable. They’re

on Twitter or Facebook, or, reading a newspaper, and thinking about what’s going on in the world. While, at the same time, the phone blocks them from seeing their environment.

So, I thought, you could use the phone to connect to your environment. One project that was born out of that idea was DuoDisco, where everyone is wearing headphones.

DuoDisco is created by Mark Meeuwenoord, Arjan Scherpenisse, Klasien van de Zandschulp

Photo : Joeri van der Kloet

HOW DO YOU GET THAT TO ‘COME TOGETHER’?

The trick of DuoDisco was that there’s always one other person listening to the same song as you. So constantly, you have to find your partner, and your partner keeps changing. It’s a nice way to break the ice, to connect through music and dance moves.

For example, a song like 'The Macarena' or 'Walk Like an Egyptian' is easy to recognize your partner, using the known dance moves. Other songs are more challenging when you need to recognize the rhythm of the moves. It was very simple and fun. Projects don’t always need to be super critical and heavy. Sometimes it can be light and just bring some joy, some surprise, and bring people together.

IS IT TOUGH TO MAKE THINGS FUN WHEN DEALING WITH POTENTIALLY SERIOUS TOPICS?

It’s definitely challenging because sense of humour is such a personal thing.

For instance, the project we were supposed to launch today, it’s a serious topic. Some of the people who live in the neighbourhood where the experience is set do not want to ever talk about dark stores and flash delivery again. They are still traumatised.

But then, for the experience we created, we also wanted to add a bit of lightness and fun as you’re walking through the neighbourhood. There’s a balance to find and that usually means testing it a lot with people to see how they respond.

PROJECTS NEED CRITICAL SOMETIMES BE LIGHT SOME JOY, AND

HAVE YOU EVER DONE THE TEST, IT’S ALL BEEN FINE, THEN IT’S GONE IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION ON THE DAY?

Definitely! It would be great if you could test for years and years, but that’s not possible.

In every test, so many new things are happening that you can’t take everything into account, especially in a public space.

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PROJECTS DON’T ALWAYS NEED TO BE SUPER CRITICAL AND HEAVY. SOMETIMES IT CAN

AND JUST BRING

SOME SURPRISE, AND BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER.

DUODISCO

Score points by finding your dance partner. Who will win this dancing game?

Photos : | | Anita Bharos

LIKE YOUR GOOD NEIGHBOURS PROJECT?

Yes, that was a big project for our studio, affect lab.

It was based in three neighbourhoods, two in the Netherlands, one in the UK. Our topic here was WhatsApp Neighbourhood Watch groups. These are incredibly popular. You even have street signs with, “Watch out! This neighbourhood is watched by WhatsApp.” In fact, the street signs, were one of the triggers that attracted our interest.

But these groups can induce a certain amount of paranoia if people are constantly texting each other to say, “There’s someone walking down the street who looks suspicious!”

So, you have to ask, why is that person suspicious? There could be a degree of social or racial profiling involved. The neighbours in these groups decide who belongs in that neighbourhood and who doesn’t belong.

Adding to this, you have new technology like smart doorbell cameras, which mean that, even when you’re at work, you can still watch your neighbourhood through your camera.

THAT DOESN’T SOUND PARTICULARLY HEALTHY!

We did a lot of research about the impact of this technology in the neighbourhoods where it’s

used. For example, in New York, where these doorbells are crazy popular.

This research resulted in a neighbourhood performance, where we would invite people to join a fictional WhatsApp group. They would watch the group on their walk, and they would meet some of the neighbours. But we also worked with live actors on the streets.

The stories they followed were fictional, but based on real stories from that neighbourhood. We really tried to involve the neighbours in the creation process too. And we really tested this project a lot. But when we were doing the actual performance, lots of unplanned things happen. Like people calling the police because there’s a person they don’t know, looking suspicious on their street!

The neighbours all started to interact and one even asked, “Hey, I hear you talking about this WhatsApp group, can I join?” Then some kids playing on the street saw actors walking about and they started to follow them. The actors all worked in ‘improv’ so they included the kids in the story.

It was really interesting to see these people joining the performance. Everyone had a complete different experience.

GOOD NEIGHBOURS

Top | The paranoid neighbour in York reports the participant of the Good Neighbours experience as suspicious.

Bottom left | A participant chats with the neighbours via the fictional WhatsApp Neighbourhood Watch group.

Photos : Esme Mai

DO YOU FILM THESE PROJECTS? OR ARE THEY COMPLETELY EPHEMERAL?

We have been very careful with that, because it’s easy to interfere with experience.

So, we don’t film too much of the experience itself. But we filmed the responses that people had once the event was finished. Together, that made a really nice video. It’s on the affectlab website.

HOW DID YOU GET INTO THIS LINE OF WORK?

I studied communication and interaction design. When I was a student, there wasn’t an interactive design course yet available at art academies. So, I started out at a Technology Academy. That meant there was more of a technology focus.

After graduating I started to work in technology labs and startups as an interaction designer, but I was really interested in how technology influences the daily lives of people.

I was very much a tech enthusiast. But I also saw the troubling side of it. And working in a startup culture, you see things happening in terms of privacy and ethical issues, that really do make you wonder… But you are part of it, you know, you joined a team. So, you’re part of that culture.

Another big motivation to leave that scene was - and still

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I WAS VERY MUCH A TECH ENTHUSIAST. BUT I ALSO SAW THE TROUBLING SIDE OF IT.

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A CITY EATING ITSELF (IN LESS THAN 10 MINUTES)

Photo : Anisa Xhomaqi

is - the discrimination against women working in tech. Let’s just say, I was also a bit fed up with that. But it motivated me to start working more autonomously.

So I began to work as a freelance interactive designer, but I also started to work as an interactive artist. I still am a little bit in-between design and art in that sense.

AND HOW DID YOU COME TO SET UP AFFECT LAB?

On the Good Neighbours project, I worked with Dr. Natalie Dixon. She had just finished her PhD and was very interested in how to share her research in a meaningful way, with a bigger community.

It’s really valuable for me to collaborate with Dr. Natalie Dixon. Her way of working has a big research component, and mine does too. But being trained as a designer, I approach it completely differently. My research is more around design, while Natalie includes a huge theoretical background which is super inspiring. And we both have a big love for storytelling.

So, we started to collaborate as affect lab and it has been super interesting since. ‘A City Eating Itself in less than 10 minutes’ is our latest project.

ARE YOU COMMISSIONING THE WORK YOURSELVES? OR DOES THE INITIATIVE USUALLY COME FROM OUTSIDE?

Some are commissioned from outside, but most of the projects are self-initiated. We start a project once we see that something interesting or urgent is going on in a particular field, like flash delivery. Something where we feel a need to research more thoroughly, to share alternative perspectives or future speculations for us to understand what it really means and what the possible consequences might be.

In the case of the dark stores, we talked to people in these affected neighbourhoods and it became clear we needed to make people aware of the situation. So then we began to apply for grants, mainly in the Netherlands, sometimes in the EU.

AFFECT LAB HAS ACCUMULATED A LARGE GANG OF CREATIVE TECHNOLOGISTS AND ARTISTS. HOW HAVE YOU COME TO FIND ALL OF THEM?

We are actually a small core team, so we find a lot of value in collaboration with our network.

Natalie grew up in South Africa. So that explains the network in South Africa. In fact, the project about Neighbourhood Watch groups started in Johannesburg. We find it very valuable to look into different contexts.

YOU ATTEMPT TO CONNECT PHYSICAL AND VIRTUAL WORLDS, WHILE FACEBOOK TRIES TO SUCK EVERYONE INTO THE METAVERSE. HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?

Facebook claim they are the founding fathers of the metaverse, but their approach is very much about efficiency and workspaces. If you look into how you represent people in their metaverse, it’s already quite limiting.

So, we decided, let’s see if we can make this more interesting. We collaborated with a developer - Babusi Nyoni - who was already working on this question of representation in the metaverse. In effect, he has started to build an alternative metaverse.

So, during Dutch Design Week, we threw a party called Metaverse Cha-Cha-Cha.

Together with Babusi, we created a virtual workshop where

people could build their own avatar and then they could join the party. The party happened at Dutch Design Week in Eindhoven, but party-goers could also join online. This hybrid party is part of our 'Toolkit for the Inbetween' project.

The metaverse was then projected onto a wall at the party and your avatar could dance there, based on accelerometer data taken from your phone as you danced in the physical space.

From the same data, we could also understand the way people were moving. Whether they were moving the same, or if they were in sync. That would also connect people, bringing them together as dance partners. It was a very playful experience.

THERE’S A LOT OF MONEY BEHIND FACEBOOK’S VISION OF THE METAVERSE. WILL THAT BE THE DETERMINING FACTOR?

Of course, it’s not possible to compete with Facebook, who have a huge amount of capital behind them. But money is not always everything.

Maybe this is a bit of a dream, but some artistic projects are picked up as inspiration, they inspire different ways of looking at things, more interesting ways. That’s huge. The ability to change perspective.

There’s this big tech festival, South by Southwest, in Austin, Texas. I have visited that a couple of times with a project. And always, the first question I get

is, “Oh, interesting, what’s your business model?”

So I would always have to explain how we work and that’s when I realised how different it is in the Netherlands. The European Union is investing in innovation and technology, but also in creative innovation and artistic innovation. That’s different from the US model, which is capitalism all the way.

Even so, I think it’s important to be present and to inspire different ways of thinking and new perspectives.

IT’S A REALLY EXCITING SPACE BETWEEN THE ONLINE AND ON SITE .

Left | The dancing avatars with cool dance moves inspires the Dutch Design Week audience to dance like their avatar.

Photos : Boudewijn Bollmann

ON THE SUBJECT OF DIFFERENT WAYS OF THINKING. DO YOU THINK AI IS A PROBLEM?

It depends on how we approach it. Just yesterday, I had a phone call with someone who told me at a university they are researching how AI can replace human labour like cleaning. I had to cry and laugh. It’s a horrible thought on many levels I also could not believe someone at a university is actually interested in researching such a perspective on AI, called 'Ctrl.Alt.Img'.

If you look at AI as a collaborator, it’s so much more interesting. I see a lot of opportunities. In fact, at the moment we are working on projects involving Dall-E, the text to image AI, called Ctrl.Alt.Img.. This is partly funded by the European Union.

YOUR EXPLORATION OF STORYTELLING, HAS THAT BEEN PICKED UP COMMERCIALLY?

Definitely. At one point, a couple of years ago, storytelling became a big thing in the technology field.

At affect lab, we tell stories with, or about, technology, and companies started to see the commercial value of this. Of course, theirs is a very different way of storytelling than I’m working with. But, suddenly, I was invited to tech conferences because I was working in the field of tech and storytelling. In the end, it turned out they were more interested in how to sell their products, using a story.

But art has always involved storytelling. I bridge between art and technology, which is not always that familiar to everyone. The art world used to be very strict with its definitions. But what counts as fine art is shifting now.

And these days, I see a lot of artists connecting with developers to work on interactive works or learn about approaches in technology. So it definitely is changing.

NATALIE DIXON + KLASIEN VAN DE ZANDSCHULP (AFFECT LAB)

affect lab is an award winning research practice and creative studio. In collaboration with an international artistic network, they use design research, immersive storytelling and experimental field work to inspire a more inclusive future. www.affectlab.org

IS THERE A PROJECT THAT YOU’RE DREAMING OF AT THE MOMENT?

There are so many! But there’s one we already made a start with at affect lab and this is about the Dutch dairy cow. You might wonder what this has to do with tech, but cows started to wear Fitbits before humans!

These wearable devices provide interesting data for the farmer. But what I’m fascinated by is how this changes the relationship between the farmer and the cow. I learned, for example, that in many cases, the tech started to come into place with the idea of saving the farmer time by not needing to interact directly with the animals. Like a milk robot. So, the farmer can leave and do some other work.

But that is not how it works at all, because the cows need care. They have a bond with the farmer who they know, so the farmer is still around, but in a different way.

I’m really dreaming about that project, especially at this moment when there’s a lot of tension going on with climate change and dairy farms.

I’m really looking for projects that will make an impact, make a change.

Photo : Gregor Petrikovic

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COLOPHON

PUBLISHER Design Friends

COORDINATION Anabel Witry

LAYOUT Zoë Mondloch

INTERVIEW Mark Penfold

PRINT Imprimerie Schlimé

PRINT RUN 250 (Limited edition)

ISBN 978-99987-939-6-5

PRICE 5 €

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COUNSELORS

Charline Guille-Burger, Silvano Vidale

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This catalogue is published for the lecture of Klasien van de Zandschulp "Dancing, eating and spying in a hybrid reality" at Mudam Luxembourg on 7th of June, 2023 organised by Design Friends

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