14 minute read
Dating Dialogue, Moderated by Jennifer Mann, LCSW
Dating Dialogue
What Would You Do If…
Moderated by Jennifer Mann, LCSW of The Navidaters
Dear My daughter is in the parsha and we have a big problem. When I
Navidaters, try to explain to shadchanim that my daughter wants a yeshivish guy who will want to work and support a family, I’m looked at as an alien. The people my husband and I know who have married long-term learning guys are really struggling. Many of the husbands eventually have burned out and don’t feel respected because they are not providing for their families and their wives are overwhelmed and look unhappy. We have relatives like this. It starts out idealistic but becomes chaos when they’re married for four years with three kids in a one-bedroom apartment with no way to provide in sight. My daughter wants a yeshivish guy who will work and provide a parnassa – but when we tell shadchanim this, she is set up with very modern boys.
What can we do to help our daughter?
Another conversation we wish to spark is the following:
How can the rabbeim say that serious yeshiva boys should not work? My husband and I truly believe men need to provide! Whether it be working in limudei kodesh or chol, to feel fulfilled as a man and not fall into bad habits which we have seen in many floundering yeshiva boys over the past decade who sit in the bais medrash as bench warmers. I do believe it’s beautiful for guys to learn but I also believe a guy can be a talmid chochom and support his family. How can we get the tides to turn?
Thank you,
Charna G.*
Disclaimer: This column is not intended to diagnose or otherwise conclude resolutions to any questions. Our intention is not to offer any definitive conclusions to any particular question, rather offer areas of exploration for the author and reader. Due to the nature of the column receiving only a short snapshot of an issue, without the benefit of an actual discussion, the panel’s role is to offer a range of possibilities. We hope to open up meaningful dialogue and individual exploration.
The Panel
The Rebbetzin
Rebbetzin Faigie Horowitz, M.S.
Charna, I hear your comments, both your focus on your daughter’s suggestions as well as your societal concerns.
Your efforts for your daughter with shadchanim may need to be more targeted. It sounds like she is seeking a ben Torah earner. Are you targeting general matchmakers and shidduch group members who serve the community at large? Targeting famous shadchanim from Lakewood or other yeshivish circles is not smart. There are lots of possible candidates for your daughter; I saw them at Touro when I worked there. There are others attending other New York schools as well and out of town, too. But finding them will take some work because these boys are in high demand. They are getting suggestions from friends, neighbors, and relatives because so many girls are interested in boys who fit the profile you describe. They are being set up amidst the circles in which they reside, learn, and go to school. Famous shadchanim are bombarded with names, and it’s easier for them to put people in boxes.
Talking about boxes brings me to the next matter. What makes you say that rabbeim are telling serious yeshiva boys not to work? I am aware that advisors in post-high school institutions actually tell young people of both genders to do what is right for them individually. You are looking at and commenting on the results of the postwar effort to re-establish Torah combined with unusual postwar prosperity. The combined result was a trend toward short- and long-term learning post-marriage. This is changing. Our community is not focused on a one-size-fits-all approach and is dealing with individualizing education on all levels for children and young people of all ages.
I’m not sure this column is the forum for communal conversation. I treat it as a dating dialogue about a specific dating quandary and generally do not discuss broader topics. Every person and every situation has its own particulars and waxing on about possible related subjects is not in my bailiwick. Thank you for understanding.
The Shadchan
Michelle Mond
You sound so much like my mom when I was single!
It’s a good thing no human being is in control of your daughter’s shidduch, only Hashem. You literally have the King of the entire universe looking out for your daughter’s bashert since the moment she was born. Feel free to privately scoff at those lackluster comments because you have the King on your side. Your daughter’s bashert does exist – maybe even right down the block (as was in my case)!
Things people said to my mom when I was dating: *You can’t get the best of both worlds *If your daughter is looking for a yeshiva-minded guy, be ready to support in kollel for 5+ years with no plan *If he’s in school, he’s obviously not committed to his learning * (After giving a “no”) Don’t say no to my ideas because what you’re looking for is so rare you should be happy to have gotten a “yes” in the first place. * Yes, he is from a completely different country and culture and English is his second language and he is 3 inches shorter than her plus he eats rice on Pesach but you said your daughter wants a boy who’s shtark and also will make a parnassa so don’t be picky.
Turns out, “people” don’t know what they are talking about because despite all these rumors about boys like this not existing, my entire single group of friends from that point in time all b”H ended up marrying shtark guys with parnassa plans.
Practically: look in the right places. Build connections in communities that have yeshivos (of which there are many) who encourage the bochurim to be providers and baale batim. Every connection you make is a step in the hishtadlus direction – never underestimate it. Did you meet a young couple once where the husband seemed to be the type of boy your daughter is looking for? Don’t be shy! Ask his wife if her husband has any single friends. These leads can be the absolute best.
Hatzlacha and looking forward to hearing good news!
The Single
Rivka Weinberg
Charna, this is a great question and something I have struggled with personally as well. I will do my best to touch upon a few points in this column, although keep in mind this requires a much larger conversation. I’m going to leave the second part of the question to the other panelists and focus solely on your first few statements.
Yes, at times, people will look at you like an alien when you explain that you are looking for a yeshivish guy who will work. Been there, done that. There are two important points to keep in mind here.
First, your daughter’s husband is out there somewhere and although he hasn’t arrived yet, iy”H he will.
Second, yeshivish boys who will make a parnassa exist. I know, shocker. It sounds crazy because we have been told various times that they don’t, but they do. The fear mongering that exists in this system is absurd. (To clarify: I am not here to bash the system or any specific shadchan, I am simply sharing my views based off my personal experiences and those that have been shared with me.) Many times, singles and their parents are told to “give in” to a boy who is learning long-term, well, because isn’t it better to be married than to be single? I’ve also heard that it will “broaden the pool” of eligible guys. Right, I get it, so girls should marry guys who want to live an entirely different lifestyle than them so we can get more people married now. I mean, of course it makes sense – compromise on your long-term happiness for short term “happiness.” If I had a dime for every time I was told what I’m looking for doesn’t exist and that I should consider dating someone who wants to be in kollel long-term, I would have enough money to support said husband in kollel forever. To all of the girls out there in similar situations, please don’t allow the fear that’s being instated
into the system to get to your heads. Hashem wouldn’t have created you with the hashkafos that you have if there wasn’t a boy out there who had compatible values. While it may seem difficult, or even impossible in the moment, the “easy” way out of signing yourself up to live a lifestyle that you are not interested in is not the answer.
Similar to girls, guys were not created in a “one size fits all” mold. While learning long-term may work for some individuals, it certainly doesn’t work for everyone. So too, while living in a one-bedroom apartment with three kids may work for some girls, it definitely doesn’t work for all.
Charna, the way you can help your daughter is by encouraging her to stand strong by not allowing the fear-mongering in the system to impact her future aspirations. As always, continue to daven to Hashem for clarity and His help throughout the process, while keeping in mind that just because your daughter’s zivug has not yet arrived, doesn’t mean he isn’t on his way.
For anyone who would like to discuss this further, please feel free to reach out to me: rivkaweinberg2@ gmail.com.
The Zaidy
Dr. Jeffrey Galler
Your letter touches upon some extremely sensitive issues. It’s important to understand that among our co-religionists there are strongly opinionated folks with very divergent viewpoints.
Consider either extreme. Some feel strongly that a newlywed husband should, immediately, be either already earning a living or at least preparing for gainful employment; others feel, equally strongly, that the world in general and the Jewish nation in particular, exist solely through the zechus of those who dedicate their lives, full-time, to learning Torah.
Whatever your opinion, it is useless to try and convince other folks that your point of view is the only correct choice. Instead, concentrate your efforts on being very, very specific when seeking a shidduch. Simply saying that you “want a yeshivish guy” will lead to misunderstanding and disappointment.
For you and your daughter, does a “yeshivish” guy mean:
Classification #1 - A young man who immediately undertakes the responsibility for making a living, but, at the same time, is “kovai-ah ee’tim l’Torah.” For example, he might be working as an accountant in the morning, and attending Ohr Yisrael Kollel in the afternoon. Or, he might be learning in the Sh’or Yoshuv Beis Medrash by day and attending Hofstra Law School at night.
Classification #2 - A young man who wants to “start married life on the right foot,” by attending Kollel for one or possibly two years, and then transition to begin earning a living.
Classification #3 - A young man who plans to remain in yeshiva for an extended period of time (5 -10 years), and then continue on a related career path. He might, for example, seek employment as a pulpit rabbi, or as a yeshiva teacher or administrator, or in safrut (scribe), or in kashrut. Note that today, with so many of our young men following this path, it is extraordinarily difficult to find a viable position in
Pulling It All Together
The Navidaters Dating and Relationship Coaches and Therapists
Dear Charna, Thank you for writing into the panel! I can certainly understand your frustrations. Being looked at as an alien is an awful experience, especially when the stakes are so high as you are trying to find Mr. Right for your daughter.
Here’s the thing... I don’t think you are as much of an alien as the shad chanim you are meeting with having you feeling. There are so many young guys who learn and plan to work (and not just work, but the plan is to be highly successful. Whether it is an attorney, in business, accounting, medicine, etc.) Quite simply, I’m wondering if you are meeting with the wrong shadchanim. Don’t forget to network amongst friends, family and shul-goers. There’s this idea out there in the universe that doesn’t only apply to the yeshivish and modern orthodox worlds and it is the following: there are no good guys out there! Allow me to validate every dater’s frustration and say that going on date after date with guys who truly don’t fit the bill would make any gal believe “there are no good guys chinuch.
Classification #4 - A young man who plans on dedicating his entire future to learning full-time. These unusual, exceptional individuals typically become fixtures in a Yeshiva Beis Medrash and often help the younger students. This life plan requires extraordinary, single-minded dedication and frugality on the part of the husband and wife. This is very clearly not a lifestyle for everyone. These couples accept that they are living a life of material sacrifice, and feel that they are embracing an elevated, spiritual life. And, of course, generous, like-minded parents with substantial financial resources help make this lifestyle possible. (An old joke comes to mind: “I want to marry someone who has a Ph.D. – Pop Has Dough.”)
It is absolutely crucial for your shadchan to clearly understand you, and match you with like-minded individuals. And, if your shadchan doesn’t have access to the type of young man you desire, find a different shadchan.
Further, do not limit yourself to only working with professional matchmakers. Friends, relatives, neighbors, and shul acquaintances are all very good sources of dating referrals as well.
Good luck.
out there!” However, upon deeper inspection I want to say, Bologna! There are wonderful guys out there! And specific to your situation, Charna... I believe there are young men who will both learn and EARN.
When you hear this nonsense, as hard at it is, you must try to rise above the fearmongering and stand strong in the knowledge that there are learn ‘n’ earn guys out there! Then bring this knowledge to your daughter and let her know not to fall prey to the fearmongering. Empower each other to navigate this shidduch system and find the right
shadchanim, friends, and family to work with.
With regard to hashkafa and a lifestyle choice, I can’t comment on that. Everyone has a personal opinion and belief and their own personal relationship with Hashem. And everyone hopefully serves their Creator to the best of his/her abilities in the way each person believes is right. Have I seen kollel couples struggling financially and emotionally? Sure. Have I seen non-kollel couples struggling financially and emotionally? Sure. I have also seen very deeply happy and satisfied kollel couples. The important thing is that everyone is honest with him/herself before marriage and truly has given great thought to what he/she wants in a partner and marriage before dating. If you know, as a man, that you need to earn a living to feel good about yourself (completely valid!) then I would suggest not learning in kollel exclusively. If a woman knows that she needs financial security in order to respect her husband as a human being and man, then she should not marry someone who learns exclusively.
The only area that you and your daughter need to focus on and celebrate is that your daughter knows who she is and what she holds important. This is truly the main thing. I have worked with people who are somewhat wishy-washy in this area and their dating pool is too large. They begin to date someone exclusively and five or seven or ten dates in, they are back at the drawing board wondering if they can truly commit to a certain lifestyle. So, start networking with the right people and refuse to give in to this “there are no good guys out there” mental ity.
May your daughter find her bashert very soon!
Sincerely, Jennifer
Jennifer Mann, LCSW is a licensed psychotherapist and dating and relationship coach working with individuals, couples, and families in private practice at 123 Maple Avenue in Cedarhurst, NY. She also teaches a psychology course at Touro College. To set up a consultation or to ask questions, please call 718-908-0512. Visit www.thenavidaters.com for more information. If you would like to submit a dating or relationship question to the panel anonymously, please email JenniferMannLCSW@gmail.com. You can follow The Navidaters on FB and Instagram for dating and relationship advice.
