In conversation with Nicolas Sargos

in conversation with

In conversation with Christophe Evers

JOAQUIN PECCI in conversation with

Nicolas Sargos

JP : Your parents being both art collectors you must have come across your first African

art pieces at a very early age …?

NS : My parents started their collection in 1981 so one could say I grew up with it. As far back as I can remember, there were always African objects at home…

JP : Do you remember any objects which may have particularly impressed you when you

were a small child, some you may have played with or which were simply intriguing for a little boy ?

NS : I was not allowed to touch these objects, they were more than often out of reach. With time, as I grew older, I was permitted to touch them, to take them in my hands. I distinctly remember a very beautiful Bété mask at home, and also a Bidjugo mask. What’s more; during the holidays I always rediscovered the African pieces that my ancestors has collected years before.

JP : Very often children disapprove and reject their parents’ passion for art collecting this was obviously not the case for you?

NS : No, I felt curious and showed genuine interest in these objects since I was very young.

With time I became involved in the process of buying and selling which was something I enjoyed thoroughly. I remember innumerable evenings when the marchands came to our place. We used to discuss the objects in the living-room. I loved that sort of atmosphere; those are some of my best childhood memories… And then of course, my parents have always encouraged me in that sense; I often say to myself that we have been very lucky to be able to share this passion for African Art.

JP: Do you remember the first object that you bought by yourself?

NS: It was a Songye mask which , unfortunately, I no longer possess. I started buying

when I was about 26 -relatively late in life , considering I had been immersed in African Art for nearly 20 years already! But I preferred to wait and settle down, and also to have enough means…. My first pieces had been given to me by my parents, that’s the beginning of my collection in that first apartment. They let me choose since they knew there were some pieces I was particularly fond of. There was, amongst other things, a Dan mask which I had specially insisted they buy in the early 90’s.

JP: Your family went to live abroad, in Africa, in Senegal actually?

NS: Yes, that’s where we discovered African Art. My parents had already lived in Mau-

ritania where they had developed a taste for Moorish Art. Once we had settled down in Senegal, in 1981, they started acquiring small objects. At one point this was gathering momentum and they began to wonder what to do next. They decided to seek advice from a highly qualified marchand who put them in the right direction.

JP: What about all those traditional objects which, unfortunately were not genuine … what

did you do with them?

NS: We simply got rid of them, we needed a fresh start. However, we still keep one or two objects from that time because those were genuine.

JP: How long did you stay in Senegal?

NS: For ten years. We left in 1981, when I was 11 years old. Next we went to Paris for two

years. We had acquired more experience by then and were ready to develop the collection. I was gradually starting to play my own role and we shared all three in this activity.

Every weekend without fail, we would tour the Parisian art galleries – those are marvelous memories ‌ At the time we had the means to start buying more important pieces. Paris was also a meeting place where we benefitted from expert advice which proved crucial for the future.

JP: What part did you play in the collection?

NS: We had a rule which was at least two of us had to agree in order to give the go ahead.

It is a family collection and we always discussed every acquisition together. I obviously had no checkbook but still played an important advisory role. My opinion was decisive for the acquisition of this Dan mask and for this Urhobo mask, for instance. In 1991/93, I remember, it was the first object for which I took a definite stand. At the time, the collection was nothing near to what it is today and this mask meant a relatively important investment. I managed to convince my parents. This object was in an art gallery which was full of fakes but we were in the habit of going there because certain pieces were interesting. It was like a treasure hunt, we were on the lookout for good quality pieces: it was lots of fun. There was a big risk the mask might not be genuine but I took my stand and insisted . The art dealer was so impressed he sold for a very good price just to please me.

JP: Is your taste similar to that of your father’s or to that of your mother’s?

NS: My educational background is basically artistic and I tend to appreciate the aesthetic

aspect of an object above all , but I believe the ethnological aspect is sometimes underestimated. Which means I sometimes like difficult and even “ugly” objects because I find they are interesting.

JP:That’s what your father liked – “strong” objects with a history of their own.

NS:My father’s sense of aesthetic beauty was very different from everybody else’s. His

was a more “African” point of view in the sense that, for him, an object had to be big in size, it had to give a sense of power and it had to fill an important religious function to be important. On the other hand, this did not mean that he might not appreciate more classical objects as well.

JP:Your father had a very sound approach, he knew what he liked and he also knew ex-

actly what he was buying.

NS: Absolutely. One day, he bought an object and, some time after, several people came to warn me that the piece was perhaps not that good and not as old as we thought. In fact, my father had known all along that the object only dated back to the 1940’s and actually, he estimated he had bought the piece for a fair price - he had been very clear-sighted all along.

JP: So, even those objects which are not first generation may also find a place in your collection.

NS: One has to be reasonable. We have some money but we are not multimillionaires. We

try to make good deals with objects of a certain age, which have been created and used at a time when religious worship played an important role in African society. I think that, sometimes, people forget that the 1940’s are still a “good” period in certain parts of Africa

JP: Could you mention the name of a well-known personality which influenced your taste

as a young art collector?

NS:There were several people. Willy Mestach in the first place. He appreciates his pieces with the eyes of an artist and this has guided the choice of every single object in his collection. He is very fond of the Songye culture , like me. With these people, shapes may seem to be simple but in fact they are actually extremely complex; the making of a both simple and beautiful object requires great mastery and craftsmanship. The, on another occasion, I once met a Cameroonian marchand who changed my way of conceiving the collection. When I went to Cameroon with him I saw an enormous amount of objects. That trip and the visit to the Berlin museum helped me discover Cameroon.

JP: In what way did this trip make an impression on you?

NS: I have travelled to the territory of the Fon in Benin and to Cameroon. I have taken

part in Fon voodoo rites . Although I am an atheist, I was thoroughly impressed at the time and I can very well understand how some people believe in such magic. One must imagine these rites as they take place that is, far away and deep in the bush, where the atmosphere is very warm and damp , in sanctuaries which are full of objects smothered with oil , to the rhythm of the sacrifices, songs and the incantations of the witchdoctor….

It is a unique experience, one that you will never forget. As for Cameroon I had originally gone there to make a report on the religious rites of various tribes but unfortunately I met with too many obstacles in my way. I therefore decided to make a documentary on forgers and fakes. I had the chance to see thousands of fake objects. All this “baloney” is sent by truckfulls to the United States via South Africa . Seventy five to ninety per cent of these objects are meant for the American market, the rest is sent to Europe but they are very difficult to sell here. In Cameroon there are approximately 3000 people working full time for the fake industry – sometimes a whole neighbourhood specializes in one type of object. This activity takes place in the open at the back of the shops … Art manufacture in Cameroon is entirely consecrated to these fakes, there is practically no more local craftsmanship. In spite of all this, the trip actually confirmed my taste for the art of Cameroon. I managed to visit certain tribes which live in remote, far-off places and found some rare old genuine pieces in the midst of masses of fakes.

JP: Actually, today this is, shall we say, the main theme in your collection?

NS: Yes, I have a great number of objects from Cameroon. I should perhaps diversify a bit but these are archetypes which fascinate me.

JP: Unlike your parents, you are not concentrating on completing the collection. You show a particular interest for strong objects.

NS: : I possess other types of objects, such as a Baoulé statuette or a Baga mask that I

love, but for other reasons. I am also fascinated by the fact that certain , so to speak “primitive” people, manage to produce such sophisticated and refined art pieces. I also love the eventual contrast between the beauty of an object and its actual function . My belief is that art and man cannot be conceived separately, art is part of human nature. The first time I saw a polished Neolithic stone I realized it had a perfect shape, in fact it was unbelievably elegant. This Neolithic man , who was by all means primitive, had meant to make something beautiful and out of the ordinary.

JP: Your passion for Songye and Congo art was, on the whole, born in Brussels I believe?

NS: I had already come across Songye art earlier in life and obviously appreciated it but I must admit that in Paris Songye pieces are rather scarce. In fact it is thanks to our visits to Brussels that we had the occasion to learn more about this subject. I remember, among other things, a Pende mask I fell in love with at Pierre Loos’ – he had actually found this very amusing at the time …

JP: How much importance do you give to the ethnographic aspect?

NS: I never buy a piece unless I am sure it is genuine. In order to feel the object, in order

to know if it has the right patina, one must know how and why it has been used. Its function is the key to discover the origins of the piece and to understand the object. On the other hand, it is my hope that one day, these objects will return to Africa. I think that for future generations, it is very important to safekeep as much information as possible on the use of these objects.

JP:Which are the exhibitions which have impressed you most?

NS:I am a fan of Cameroon so Bernard Dulon’s exhibition proved to be absolutely fas-

cinating. The Quai Branly Exhibition on the Dogon also made a great impression on me because it was the first time I had ever seen these masterpieces and, of course, in such quantities… And naturally, Willy Mestach’s exhibition, even though I already knew all those objects.

JP: How do you think the market will develop? What do you think of the sudden appear-

ance of all these auction houses on the market, the fact that objects are becoming more and more rare and what do you think is in store for the art galleries?

NS: We have always preferred to work with the marchands - we have also bought from auction houses, but very little. In my opinion, the future seems to be rather complicated for the marchands. There are more and art collectors but there are no more objects. And gradually these become inaccessible . For a young marchand it has therefore become a very difficult task. The files with lists of clients have become disproportionately long, people very seldom pay visits to the galleries, there is the group of small art collectors which is slowly disappearing partly because high prices …. We distinguish today, three distinctive markets . There is the sales market , which is evidently becoming more and more important – to a point that these sales have created an artificial market for “top” objects and which is apparently becoming the only real market. The art gallery market which is trying to survive via exhibitions and special events. And the small collectors’ market who often have to fall back on certain marchands with low quality objects and sometimes even fakes…

The African Art world has changed tremendously, and so have art collectors, the setting is no longer the same. The idea of a federation of marchands is to me a good thing; it is important to establish a collegiate authority.

JP: And what about internet?

NS:Internet is certainly interesting. People are more and more short of time and no lon-

ger make the effort to visit the art galleries. We will most probably soon witness a certain “virtualization” of the market with this new generation which is permanently “connected”.

Having a virtual gallery and selling objects from a distance is like magic. But this can’t replace the trust and relationship one can have with a marchand . Someone with whom you can make friends with, who knows your tastes and who will be thinking of you when buying an object.

JP: What do you think your future is as an art collector?

NS: I must admit that the increase in prices these last ten years added to a price trend

which gives no sign of reverting , will make it more and more difficult for me to acquire the pieces I’m after - and I don’t think I am the only one in this situation : the proof is lots of people have disappeared from the market. One can still always indulge in buying but the arrival of new extremely wealthy people on the market and the policy of the auction houses make things very difficult for us. It is a very complex situation which ,in any events, concerns both the marchands and the art collectors, this is why I think it is important to consult together on this question.

JP: Which are the pieces which you would love to possess?

NS:The royal mask of the former Pierre Harter collection, the one with the lizzards shaped

into a crown. A Gouro mask which I saw in a collection one day. I had to sit in order to look at it I found it so magnificent - the whole history of the mask had been written inside, it was absolutely fabulous. The extraordinary Fang mask at the Pierre Guerre sale and, finally the Punu mask of the Goldet collection: I was hypnotized when I saw it at the exhibition.

JP:Which is the piece from your collection that you would save in case of fire?

NS:My Bamiléké mask which is one of the most beautiful in its category, together with my little Mupo in my jeans pocket.

JOAQUIN PECCI Tribal Art