Produced By June | July 2024

PRODUCEDBY

THE OFFICIAL MAGAZINE OF THE PRODUCERS GUILD OF AMERICA // JUNE | JULY 2024

A STARRY NIGHT AT THE 2024 PGA AWARDS

P. 20

HOW WORLD OF WONDER STAYS

UPRIGHT IN STORMY WATERS

P. 80

TOMMY OLIVER

“Building our brand and community was done from a place of love, care, and wanting to do right by the people who needed the content, who needed the stories.”

“SECURES

ITS PLACE IN THE PANTHEON OF TELEVISION HISTORY.”

PRODUCEDBY

“WE CAN FINANCE, BUT I’M A PRODUCER AND I LIKE TO BE ON SET. I LIKE TO BE IN THE TRENCHES AND HELP FIGURE OUT WHAT’S GOING ON.” —TOMMY OLIVER

20 A STARRY NIGHT

The 35th PGA Awards Gala was a celebration of unbridled talent and unflinching determination.

34 PRODUCER SUPERPOWERS

Nominees for the Darryl F. Zanuck Award shared the ups and downs of producing their films with a jampacked audience.

FEATURES

44 TOMMY OLIVER

The founder of Confluential proves time and time again that authenticity is the way to success.

64 THE EMBODIMENT OF CREATIVITY

Diving into 2024 PGA Innovation Award winner, Body of Mine

72 THE VFX EXPLOSION

Producers immersed in visual effects work share tips on how to break into and stay relevant in this territory.

80 THE SCRAPPY APPROACH

Unscripted revolutionaries Fenton Bailey and Randy Barbato talk about the tactics they rely on to get through tough times.

PHOTO BY TAMEKA JACOBS

THE PRODUCING TEAM OF RUPAUL’S DRAG RACE, WINNER OF THE 2024 PGA AWARD FOR OUTSTANDING PRODUCER OF GAME & COMPETITION TELEVISION.

DEPARTMENTS

16 LETTER FROM THE PRESIDENTS

Guild Presidents Stephanie Allain and Donald De Line congratulate 2024 PGA Awards nominees.

26 ON THE MARK

How Blanca Lista made magic to earn the Producers Mark on The Portable Door

38 NEW MEMBERS

Meet the PGA’s newest members and discover what makes them tick.

58 A DAY IN THE LIFE

The three things that make Tommy Oliver’s day complete.

70 TOOL KIT

XR creator Cameron Kostopoulos relies on both the old-school and the high-tech.

88 ON THE GROUND

Thailand offers a winning combination of skilled crew, competitive incentives and a wealth of settings for film and TV production.

94 IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF GIANTS

Denise Di Novi on how Heathers paved the way.

PHOTO

Bianca Ahmadi

Fred Berger

Hillary Corbin Huang

Melanie Cunningham

BOARD OFFICERS

PRESIDENTS

Stephanie Allain Donald De Line

VICE PRESIDENTS, MOTION PICTURES

Chuck Roven Lauren Shuler Donner

VICE PRESIDENTS, TELEVISION

Mike Farah Melvin Mar

TREASURER

Yolanda T. Cochran

VICE PRESIDENT, PRODUCING TEAM

Steve Cainas

VICE PRESIDENT, EASTERN REGION STEERING GROUP

Donna Gigliotti

RECORDING SECRETARIES

Mike Jackson Kristie Macosko Krieger

PRESIDENTS EMERITI

Gail Berman Lucy Fisher

DIRECTORS

Jennifer Fox

Beth Fraikorn

Lynn Kestin Sessler

Samie Kim Falvey

Rachel Klein

James Lopez

Mark Maxey

Lori McCreary

ASSOCIATE NATIONAL EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR

Michelle Byrd

CEO

Susan Sprung

EDITOR

Lisa Y. Garibay

PRODUCERSGUILD.ORG

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ANDREW SCOTT

CELEBRATING WHAT WE DO

Congratulations to all 2024 PGA Award-winning producing teams!

It was inspiring to celebrate alongside so many hardworking, deserving producers at the Guild’s East and West Coast nominee events, at the breakfast with Zanuck Award-nominated producers, and, of course, at the awards gala on February 25.

Acceptance speeches can all be found on the PGA’s YouTube channel. Here you can also view our “Producers on Producing” short video, which debuted during the awards gala. Many thanks to Mike Farah, Joe Farrell, the entire production team, and participating producers Victoria Alonso, Ian Cooper, Jessica Elbaum, James Lopez, Sharon Lopez, Linda Morel, Christina Oh, Tommy Oliver, Taja Perkins and Kyle Wilson for giving us a hilarious and charming way to answer the age-old question, “What does a producer do, anyway?”

We hope you’ll join us at the Guild’s next big event: the 14th annual Produced By Conference on Saturday, June 8 on the Fox Studio lot. The daylong event will feature a single track of programming, including the popular State of Producing panels discussing the future and sustainability of the producing profession.

Two conversations will cover tools and best practices for the use of artificial intelligence. Attendees will also get a behind-the-scenes look at how critically acclaimed series from HBO|Max and FOX were developed from pitch to debut.

You’ll have the chance to not only hear from experts in film, TV, and emerging media, but also network with them and other producing peers between sessions, during lunch, and at an evening reception. The Guild is proud to present this opportunity for in-person connection at a time when it’s more important than ever to fortify our community.

Bookmark producedbyconference.com for the latest updates. See you on June 8!

Sincerely,

Stephanie Allain

Donald De Line

FOR YOUR EMMY ® CONSIDERATION OUTSTANDING LIMITED SERIES

“A POWERFUL DRAMA OF SURVIVAL.”

DAILY BEAST

“AN INSPIRING TALE OF LOVE, HOPE AND RESILIENCE.”

THEWRAP

A STA RRY NIGHT

The Ray Dolby Ballroom was illuminated by an awe-inspiring group of nominees, presenters and guests at the 35th Annual PGA Awards.

Written by Allison Lambdin and Lisa Y. Garibay photography by Jordan Strauss Photography

On February 25, 2024, an array of top talent gathered in Hollywood to celebrate the artistry and accomplishments of producers at the 35th Annual PGA Awards. While presenting Martin Scorsese with the David O. Selznick Achievement Award in Theatrical Motion Pictures, producer-director Guillermo del Toro emphasized, “An artist’s spirit cannot be tamed.”

Scorsese regaled the audience with the story of being lauded by the Screen Producers Guild—a predecessor to the PGA—during its awards dinner in 1965. Scorsese was there to accept the Jesse L. Lasky Intercollegiate Award for a film he had made at NYU, sharing the stage with such legends as Alfred Hitchcock, Samuel Goldwyn, Jack Warner, Norman Lear, Lou Wasserman and David O. Selznick. Scorsese exclaimed, “I was 22 years old, it was my first time out west, and I’m up here with all these people!

“These were some of the people who actually originally brought cinema to life and gave it to us to carry on,” Scorsese said.

He added, “Tonight, I feel it’s really extraordinary, like I’ve come full circle. I was 22 when Cary Grant told me to kiss Elke Sommer (who presented his award),” Scorsese said. “Now I’m 81. And I’m glad I kissed her.”

Charles D. King was presented with the Milestone Award for historic contributions to the entertainment industry by actor-director Ryan Coogler, who signed with King when he was an agent and helped to shepherd Coogler’s acclaimed debut feature, the PGA Award-winning Fruitvale Station

“To know him is to know that he’s a rocket. Anything he has in his mind, he’s going to will into existence,” Coogler said, celebrating the impact of King’s Macro Studios as a launching pad for Black voices.

King—the first African American to receive the Milestone Award—expressed gratitude to parents, ancestors, producers and executives “who kicked down doors, made sacrifices and blazed the trail for me to be able to do what I’m blessed to do.”

King described the decision to move away from his career at WME nine years ago to start Macro as “the largest leap of faith in my life.” Since becoming a roll-up-your-sleeves producer, King said, “I’ve experienced firsthand the invaluable role that producers play in our industry, and I have tremendous respect for every single member of the PGA and our colleagues who are involved with the PGA.”

King saved his biggest thanks for last by acknowledging his wife, Stacey Walker King, chief brand officer at Macro. He recalled that when he was getting his start as an assistant at WME, the couple lived in a building directly across from the awards venue. “We were talking about the dream of one day doing what we’re doing—this idea that I pitched during our first date in 1995, this vision of one day building a company. To pull up here to tonight’s event, knowing that I lived right there, is truly surreal.”

Sarah Michelle Gellar presented Gail Berman with the Norman Lear Achievement Award in Television, describing Berman as one of our industry’s biggest groundbreakers. “Name another woman who has held the top position at both

PGA Presidents Donald De Line and Stephanie Allain with David O. Selznick Achievement Award recipient Martin Scorsese and presenter Guillermo del Toro

American Fiction costars Jeffrey Wright, Erika Alexander, Tracee Ellis Ross and Sterling K. Brown

Gail Berman, recipient of the Norman Lear Achievement Award in Television, with presenter Sarah Michelle Gellar

a film studio and a television studio. You can’t. Because there is only one.”

Gellar met Berman just before Gellar’s 18th birthday, as Buffy the Vampire Slayer was being developed for TV.

“I think what makes Gail such a great producer is her ability to create that space where one can be vulnerable. If you can’t be vulnerable, you can’t create art.”

During her acceptance speech, Berman recounted industry-wide rejection of Buffy, saying, “Not a single person on this earth was interested in buying that television show. But I just couldn’t ignore my gut telling me that there was something unique there.” She recalled how she never accepted “the reality of a no” from the very start of her career. “I didn’t even really know any better. And that was a really good thing.

“To everyone in this room, thank you for your support, your devotion to making great stories and powerful art,” Berman said as she closed her speech. “Your passion, your drive, and yes, mostly your resilience, is the magic that brings this industry to life. Here’s to our collective yeses!”

2024 NOMINEES AND WINNERS

Darryl F. Zanuck Award for Outstanding Producer of Theatrical Motion Pictures

Oppenheimer

American Fiction

Anatomy of a Fall

Barbie

The Holdovers

Killers of the Flower Moon

Maestro

Past Lives

Poor Things

The Zone of Interest

Award for Outstanding Producer of Animated Theatrical Motion Pictures

Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse

The Boy and the Heron

Elemental

The Super Mario Bros. Movie

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles:

Mutant Mayhem

Sandra Oh and Lily Gladstone

Oppenheimer costars Emily Blunt, Cillian Murphy and Robert Downey Jr.

Presenter Sarah Silverman (center) with producers of The Bear

PGA Milestone Award recipient Charles D. King with presenter Ryan Coogler

American Symphony producers Joedan Okun, Matthew Heineman and Lauren Domino

Oppenheimer producers Christopher Nolan, Emma Thomas and Charles Roven

2024 NOMINEES AND WINNERS CONTINUED

Norman Felton Award for Outstanding Producer of Episodic Television - Drama

Succession

The Crown

The Diplomat

The Last of Us

The Morning Show

Danny Thomas Award for Outstanding Producer of Episodic Television - Comedy

The Bear

Barry Jury Duty

Only Murders in the Building

Ted Lasso

David L. Wolper Award for Outstanding Producer of Limited or Anthology Series Television

Beef

All the Light We Cannot See Daisy Jones and the Six Fargo

Lessons in Chemistry

Award for Outstanding Producer of Televised or Streamed Motion Pictures

Black Mirror: Beyond the Sea

Mr. Monk’s Last Case: A Monk Movie

Quiz Lady

Reality

Red, White & Royal Blue

Award for Outstanding Producer of Non-Fiction Television

Welcome to Wrexham

60 Minutes

The 1619 Project

Albert Brooks: Defending My Life

Being Mary Tyler Moore

The Welcome to Wrexham producing team

PGA Awards event cochair Mike Farah, PGA presidents Stephanie Allain and Donald De Line, PGA CEO Susan Sprung, and PGA Awards event cochair Joe Farrell

Succession producer Kevin Messick

Danielle Brooks, America Ferrera and Tony Hale

Last Week Tonight with John Oliver producers Kaye Foley, Megan Shub and Kate Mullaney

2024 NOMINEES AND WINNERS

CONTINUED

Award for Outstanding Producer of Live Entertainment, Variety, Sketch, Standup & Talk Television

Last Week Tonight with John Oliver

Carol Burnett: 90 Years of Laughter + Love

Chris Rock: Selective Outrage

Dave Chappelle: The Dreamer

Saturday Night Live

Award for Outstanding Producer of Game & Competition

Television

RuPaul’s Drag Race

The Amazing Race

Squid Game: The Challenge

Top Chef

The Voice

Award for Outstanding Producer of Documentary Motion Pictures

American Symphony

20 Days in Mariupol Beyond Utopia

The Disappearance of Shere Hite

The Mother of All Lies

Smoke Sauna Sisterhood

Squaring the Circle

(The Story of Hipgnosis)

Award for Outstanding Sports Program

Beckham

100 Foot Wave

Formula 1: Drive to Survive Hard Knocks: Training Camp with the New York Jets

Shaun White: The Last Run

Award for Outstanding Children’s Program

Sesame Street Goosebumps

Gremlins: Secrets of the Mogwai

Star Wars: The Bad Batch

The Velveteen Rabbit

Award for Outstanding Short Form Program

Succession: Controlling the Narrative

Carpool Karaoke: The Series

I Think You Should Leave with Tim Robinson

The Last of Us: Inside the Episode

Only Murders in the Building: One Killer Question

2024 PGA Innovation Award

Body of Mine (Kost)

The World’s Largest Tailgate (Kansas City Chiefs)

Reimagined (Very Cavaliere Productions)

Out of Scale, A Kurzgesagt Adventure (Meta)

Wallace & Gromit in The Grand Getaway (Aardman)

Our Ocean Our Future (Hidden Worlds Entertainment)

JFK Memento (Targo)

Letters from Drancy (East City Films)

The EYE AND I (Edda)

Ocean of Light - Dolphins VR (Meta Quest)

Space Explorers: Blue Marble Trilogy (Felix & Paul Studios)

MLK: Now is the Time (Time Studios) ¢

For a complete list of producers associated with the nominated productions, visit producersguild.org/ producers-guild-of-americaawards-celebrates-top-honors

Emma Stone

BEEF producers Steven Yeun, Lee Sung Jin and Ali Wong

Producers of Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse

Da’Vine Joy Randolph

ON THE MARK

Blanca Lista explains how believing in magic, combined with hard work, gets magical films made.

Interview by Lisa Y. Garibay

With contributions by Nadege Pierre

The Portable Door Blanca Lista, p.g.a.

The Portable Door is based on a series of successful novels by British author Tom Holt in which a down-on-his-luck protagonist, Paul Carpenter, lands an internship with mysterious London firm J.W. Wells and Co. While acclimating to his far-from-conventional employer, Paul uncovers the CEO’s plot to control the human race with ancient magic. Together with his coworker (and romantic interest) Sophie Pettingehl, Paul combats this sinister agenda using the magic of a literal, portable door. In April 2023, The Portable Door debuted in the U.S. on on MGM+ and was released theatrically in Australia. It also began streaming in the U.K. and Australia last spring.

Producer Blanca Lista’s own career path has been as adventurous and magical as the story of The Portable Door, with coproducing credits including the Academy Award, Golden Globe, BAFTA, Annie, and PGA Award-winning film Guillermo del Toro’s Pinocchio. Lista was awarded a Primetime Emmy for Netflix’s The Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance and served as a production executive on The Star with Sony Pictures Animation and on Disney’s Alexander and the Terrible, Horrible, No Good, Very Bad Day As a producer and executive, Lista oversaw story development, production, and postproduction with The Jim Henson

Company, Warner Bros. Studios, Sony Pictures Entertainment, Leonardo DiCaprio’s Appian Way, and Baz Luhrmann’s Bazmark.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU’VE EARNED THE PRODUCERS MARK. WHAT SURPRISED YOU ABOUT BEING SO HANDS-ON ON EVERY ASPECT OF A PROJECT?

I had been the baby producer, so to speak, and I’d been on set seeing my peers at work and learning from that. Those experiences were invaluable in getting me to where I am. The biggest surprise for me was only having those eight weeks of production to capture (the film) and work with the cast and crew.

I always say that as a producer, I’m a little bit of a mom because I need to be very caring and very kind to everyone. But I also need to be a little bit of a psychologist and be like, “OK, what is lurking behind this? This person is having an issue that has nothing to do with a movie.” You also have to be a priest and forgive.

The hardest challenge hour by hour is making sure that these human beings who have freely chosen to work together are in an environment that feels safe and protected for them to do their best work. That takes a lot of talking, but most importantly, a lot of listening and seeing things through, and compromising when you need to. But never com-

From right: Lista, director Jeffrey Walker and DOP Donald McAlpine watch Patrick Gibson and Arka Das perform a take during filming of The Portable Door in July 2021

COURTESY OF BLANCA LISTA

promise on the vision, because I think that the best movies get made because the vision is uniform. Which is nothing short of a miracle, to be honest.

HOW DID YOU COME ON BOARD THIS PROJECT?

The Portable Door had a history of complicated rights with other studios. When I worked at The Jim Henson Company, the rights were optioned, and I came on board right away. There was a personal connection with the story of the intern, Paul Carpenter. He’s thrilled when he lands the job and develops into an amazing, magical, otherworldly and strange character. Who doesn’t want to fantasize and believe that their boss is a goblin or some kind of dark

wizard? So while reading, I related with the character—I’ve been there—and the audience will see themselves reflected. It’s a comedy at heart, an environmental romance, and it’s timeless. Who doesn’t want to go through a door that takes you anywhere?

Tom Holt, the author, is unbelievably successful and very prolific. It was also his first foray into the adaptation world, and I was motivated to make him proud. Not every book is meant to be a movie. But when you strongly feel that it should be, you want the movie to be true to the original, but also exceptionally unique in its own right. Having Tom’s approval from the beginning with his own baby was instrumental in making us want to do it.

YOU HAVE A RICH BACKGROUND IN CREATING THESE FANTASTICAL WORLDS. HOW DID YOU MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT USING PRACTICAL EFFECTS VERSUS VFX?

The movie was set to be practical and have as much as possible shot in camera without depending on VFX. When VFX are beautifully paired with what you have shot, it enhances and elevates your hero’s journey, the world, and the movie experience. But VFX can also make you think, “Wait a minute, that character or that animal is not meant to be that, or this monster could never do that.”

As soon as we had our director, Jeffrey Walker, on board, we went through the script and spotted those areas that we wanted to pump up.

Costume design was paramount. It was the first element, the idea of enhancing and assuring through costume design that every character depicts their own story, either through the color palette, the fabrics, or the wardrobe changes. Everything that has to do with giving more background history to each character. The second element is the production design. We envision that harsh contrast between the world of London—which is exciting, but when you’re just in the hamster wheel of going to work, it’s not really fun—and then entering the door of this world, ensuring that it feels grand in different ways, intimidating at times, but intimate for the love story. We were adamant about having the portable door built, and we actually traveled with it. When we were at a tropical location, we placed the portable door on the beach to ensure that the VFX team had something true and palpable to work with. We took it to a waterfall and other places to ensure that the camera captured the beautiful rustic door we created.

The third element that worked together very well with the production

Lista and her son Solo Speed during the filming of The Portable Door

design was the VFX, recognizing that going through the portable door needed to give you that moment when you’re like, “Oh, I’m going to Iceland. I’m going to Easter Island. I’m going to a wonderful tropical location that I could never access unless I saved a lot of money and went on a very long flight.”

So it was fun to combine those elements successfully. The world felt coherent, like a single unit.

YOU SHOT IN AUSTRALIA DURING THE COVID LOCKDOWN. HOW DID BOTH FILMING THERE AND INCORPORATING COVID SAFETY MEASURES IMPACT YOUR BUDGET?

Through all the development and the process of script preparation, it was intentional to film in Australia. It happened because I attached screenwriter Leon Ford. As soon as I met him, I thought Leon was Paul Carpenter in real life!

Leon is based in Sydney, Australia, so the initial process was to set the project as a 100% Australian production, which doesn’t work for every movie, but I saw an opportunity to take advantage of the 40% producer offset that Australia offered. For that, there were some elements that had to be Australian—one of them the writer.

Then I chose Todd Feldman as my producing partner, who’s Australian and based there. We chose Jeffrey Walker as our Australian director. There were moments, of course, when as good producers we looked at different locations for savings. But it came back to Australia once COVID hit because it was a safe place.

There were budgetary changes for COVID protocols: a COVID supervisor, quarantine expenses and additional staff. Because there was so much willingness from our financiers and investors to film, it wasn’t a fight so much as a compromise on how to get it done

but within the parameters everyone felt comfortable adding to the budget.

TODD FELDMAN ALSO GOT THE PRODUCERS MARK FOR THIS FILM. HOW DID YOUR SKILLS AND TALENTS COMPLEMENT EACH OTHER?

Todd was my brother, the greatest producing partner you can hope for. Like best friends or a married couple, it’s about chemistry, and our partnership had that from the start. We have different backgrounds, skills and tools that complement each other. It was an amazing experience to learn from each other, emphasize our strengths and diminish our weaknesses.

I come from the creative side of the business and love developing original ideas, finding properties and obtaining rights, either for life rights or a book option. I love fighting and championing the talent. Like when everyone says no to this writer, I’m like, “No, he’s the right

Lista on set in Gold Coast, Australia, during production of The Portable Door

POINT OF PRIDE

How The Portable Door Implemented Green Principles

When it filmed in Australia in 2021, The Portable Door was the first feature film in that country to achieve sustainable production certification from BAFTA’s Albert, an organization dedicated to helping the film and TV industry reduce the environmental impacts of production.

The opportunity to run a production that put green practices in place was a point of pride for Blanca Lista and The Portable Door team. We asked Lista how they did it.

How did you decide to commit to sustainability on this project? What did you do to prepare?

I’m a big believer that if the producers are doing something, it starts to permeate throughout the production. Everything started because one of our financiers was from the U.K., where they have a very strong system in place. BAFTA offers a program called Albert, which is very ingrained in production there.

Todd and I aren’t U.K.-based, but that didn’t matter. We said, “Let’s take this and adapt it to our project.” We went through Albert’s sustainable production training program and fully completed it before preproduction.

That allowed us to have an environmental manager, Sarah Tosone, throughout production. She was there every day, meeting with every head of department, even the people who prepare the food, to make sure we used recyclable materials. For instance, everyone was given a refillable water bottle to use throughout production. It

set the tone from the beginning.

Screen Australia deals with productions at the federal level; then every state has its own constituent that deals with production. We worked with both Screen Australia and Screen Queensland. Both approached us to learn more about sustainable production, and Sarah met with them throughout the shoot to educate them.

What practices were implemented during production?

We weren’t in Sydney, Melbourne, or any other big city. We were in more of a rural area. That made it harder, but everyone was great at finding a compromise. We did it in small steps. You want to be understanding of where people come from, while also needing them to be open to experiencing something new.

For example, there were always vegan or vegetarian options, but one day a week was all vegan. And then, of course, there was recycling. Everything that could be recycled we recycled, from regular day-to-day waste to anything that we could repurpose or reuse in construction, costume design, hair and makeup.

Our production designer and set decorator were very good at trying to repurpose things that the (viewer’s) eye doesn’t catch, or that even I might miss unless I was made aware of it. The film was uniquely stylized, so it was a good excuse to use refurbished or vintage things by reconfiguring them and rethinking them in a new context.

person. I’m going to prove it to you.” So that’s the joy of my life—connecting the dots to get the green light and putting the team together, working very closely with the director, being on set daily, and being there through post is very important to me.

Todd has a line producing background. He’s extremely good at budgeting and production schedules. Nothing was impossible. Everything could be worked out, even through COVID and things that don’t depend on us, like, “There’s a way to get Christoph Waltz to Australia!” Also, getting all the parties that are on three different continents to agree to terms and close the financing of the movie takes diplomacy. Todd is proficient with relationships in the foreign sales world.

It was great to have that combination; honestly, that’s a full producer! To do it together and learn from each other along the way got us to a very strong position on the first day of production.

It’s funny—everyone was asking me, “Are you nervous? There is COVID, you’re a producer for the first time…” and all these things. But we had prepared for so long that I had no nervousness at all.

THERE ARE SUCH BEAUTIFUL AND MOVING PROJECTS ON YOUR RÉSUMÉ. WHAT PLACE DO STORIES WITH MAGIC AND UPLIFT

LIKE THESE HAVE IN OUR WORLD TODAY, ESPECIALLY COMING OUT OF DIFFICULT TIMES LIKE COVID?

There’s something truly timeless about creating a movie like The Portable Door that makes you feel good and makes you want to live the life of that film through the characters and through the story that is told, not once, but many times. And that’s unique, right? We have films that we’ve watched like last year’s All Quiet on the Western Front, which is an amazing film. But on a Friday night I don’t want to go to my husband, “Hey, let’s make some popcorn and watch this movie again.” Every movie has its time and space.

Having the ability to create films like The Portable Door that give hope, that create joy and a safe space for everyone—the grandparents, the parents, the children—to see something magical that makes your imagination bloom, is what shapes our dreams. I think at heart, we’re all dreamers. So even though you might think you don’t need it, every so often, we all need to be reminded of that.

Movies are magical because it’s hard to make them! I work in an industry where my every day, every week of the year is, “No, don’t do this. No, you’re not going to get this money. No, you’re not going to get this help. No, you’re not going to get this actor.” So many people say to me, “That’s so disheartening. Why do you keep doing this?”

Because when you finally get a yes and you only need one—it’s the greatest feeling in the world. Like a domino effect, everything falls into place.

I am a believer in fate, what’s written in the stars, and, of course, magic. It was time for The Portable Door. We had put the work in. We had made a lot of sacrifices and it had to be done.

Even COVID wasn’t going to stop that. All the parties rose to the occasion, including our cast, who said, “It’s COVID, but we want to make it. We’ll be there.” ¢

Certification via the Producers Mark (represented by p.g.a.) indicates that a producer performed a major portion of the producing functions in a decision-making capacity on a specific project. Criteria, its definition, the process for earning the mark and other particulars can be viewed at producersguildawards.com.

SUSTAINABILITY IN AUSTRALIA SINCE THE PORTABLE DOOR

Sarah Tosone with set decoration and prop donations for charity

“I have very fond memories of working on The Portable Door. It was a wonderful film and I’m proud to have been a part of it,” says Sarah Tosone, who was the environmental manager on the project and continues to consult on productions in Australia. “Unfortunately, I’ve worked on other films where environmental sustainability wasn’t a priority, which made for a less pleasant experience. It’s a testament to Blanca and fellow producers Todd Fellman and Matt Pearson for setting a positive tone from top leadership.”

Below, Tosone provides an update on the support that environmentally minded productions can find in Australia:

• BAFTA’s Albert has entered into an international partnership with Sustainable Screens Australia (SSA) to reduce the screen industry’s environmental impact.

• Docklands Studios in Melbourne has transitioned to 100% renewable energy through GreenPower, a governmentaccredited provider that sources energy from the sun, wind, water and biofuel. This is Australia’s first major film studio to make this switch.

• Aggreko hybrid generators have been used on several large feature films, successfully reducing diesel fuel and costs.

• Hybrid and EV vehicles and charging stations are becoming more popular in Australia. Productions are finding value in renting hybrid vehicles, especially for crew on the road.

• Reducing fossil fuel usage is the biggest challenge. There is a reluctance to take risks on new technologies and systems due to the high pressures inherent in the filmmaking process.

• Waste management in Australia has taken a step backward, as soft plastic is no longer collected for recycling but is still widely used. Certified compostable packaging, including for beverages and food, is no longer accepted at many compost facilities due to PFAS chemicals and microplastics found in tested soils. There is now a big push toward reusable solutions.

“Overall, the industry is more eager for environmental changes, but there is still a long way to go. If a producer or show creator implements just one sustainable practice, it should be the core principle of reduce, reuse and recycle in creative decision-making,” Tosone says.

“I’m keen to work on and watch a film made with the tiniest footprint ever. Now, that’s a creative challenge.”

SUPER PRODUCER POWERS

Nominees for the PGA’s Zanuck Award for Theatrical Motion Pictures discuss the challenging and joyful experiences of making their extraordinary films.

Written by Allison Lambdin

PHOTOS

Emma Stone, Bradley Cooper, Christine Vachon, Ben LeClair, Donald De Line, Stephanie Allain, Margot Robbie, Charles Roven, James Wilson, Mark Johnson, Daniel Lupi

Ben LeClair

Daniel Lupi

Margot Robbie

PGA Presidents Stephanie Allain and Donald De Line

Vachon and Emma Stone

Bright and early on a February morning, producers behind some of the most notable releases of the year shared their wisdom during the PGA’s annual breakfast with nominees for the Darryl F. Zanuck Award for Outstanding Producer of Theatrical Motion Pictures. As in prior years, the event was held at the Skirball Cultural Center in Los Angeles, sponsored by the Los Angeles Times and moderated by PGA Presidents Stephanie Allain and Donald De Line.

Questions aimed at the panelists covered unique skills for effective producing, tackling roadblocks before and during production, and the origins of their films. The producers also discussed their storytelling process, and how to resonate with audiences and generate conversations.

To open the discussion, Allain asked: “What is your super producer power?” The panelists had insightful answers about making quick decisions and navigating difficulties.

“Communication is key for filmmaking,” said American Fiction’s Ben LeClair, “whether you’re the PA or distributor or director, and definitely with producing.” Daniel Lupi, from Killers of the Flower Moon, believes it’s truly understanding the process and what everyone does on the film. For Barbie’s Margot Robbie, it’s “problem-solving and a tendency to deal with the most tricky and uncomfortable things first.”

For The Zone of Interest producer James Wilson, it’s all about patience, a low overhead and facilitating the director’s vision. Christine Vachon from Past Lives said that it’s important to understand that “the only real crisis is when someone gets hurt.” Regarding inevitable hitches in production that every team faces, Charles Roven from Oppenheimer said that thinking laterally is important. “If something’s not working one way, try to make it work another way.”

Producing is often a feat of endurance requiring persistent nudging to move it forward. Panelists’ experiences varied regarding the timeline of each stage from development through production. And each producer dealt with a different set of conditions.

“I’ve had movies that I’ve worked on for 10 years, 12 years, and have struggled to get made. Oppenheimer was not one of those,” Roven said. The book that inspired the film, American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer, took 25 years to be written. Compared to that, Oppenheimer moved at light speed.

Roven’s involvement began when friends asked him to read American Prometheus. “Probably the biggest challenge I had was reading the 750page book,” he joked. “I realized it was an incredible book and it needed somebody incredible to come on the movie to write and direct it.”

Roven then recommended the book to writer-director Christopher Nolan, who declared his commitment within three weeks. The script was finished several months later.

“It was, I think, the fastest movie that I ever put together and produced together with the Nolans,” Roven said. “I wish I could tell you (about) a long, arduous journey, but it was actually a very blessed experience.” For this, Roven credited the film’s team, from actors to department heads, capping it off with, “We actually made the movie under budget. The rest is history.”

Lupi’s journey adapting Killers of the Flower Moon began when producers Dan Friedkin and Bradley Thomas won rights to the book in a bidding war. After director Martin Scorsese came on board, Eric Roth wrote the script and Leonardo DiCaprio joined the project.

In 2019, DiCaprio and Scorsese went to the Osage Nation in Oklahoma and began to revise the script after a studio joined.

Top: Christine

Middle left: James Wilson

Middle right: Bradley Cooper

Bottom left: Charles Roven

Bottom right: Mark Johnson

baby reindeer is “deeply personal.”

baby reindeer is “brave and moving.”

baby reindeer is “unforgettable.”

baby reindeer is “a rare gem.”

baby reindeer is “astonishing.”

baby reindeer is “as powerful as TV can get.”

outstanding limited series consider a captivating true story

Revisions resulted in financing and distribution snags, and the COVID pandemic further delayed production. When Apple TV+ came on board, production resumed, but fluctuated depending on COVID conditions. “And then we were in post for 75 weeks,” Lupi recalled.

Ben LeClair of American Fiction started by acknowledging key producing partner Jermaine Johnson, and described how director Cord Jefferson discovered the book Erasure, on which the film is based, in 2020. Author Percival Everett granted the filmmakers a free option.

While Jefferson was reading the book, he had Jeffrey Wright in mind to play the lead. The actor’s sign-on “legitimized a movie that seemed hard on all sides, and it gave us just a bit of money to be able to set sail,” LeClair recalled. “An actor like Jeffrey helps cast the movie. We had this amazing group rally around the movie.” The film was made in 26 days.

Emma Stone described her part in Poor Things as very much a creative role, not just as the lead actor but as one deeply involved in developing the world depicted in the film and the movement of the story. She credited producers Andrew Lowe and Ed Guiney for their help: “I learned so much from them on a daily basis. They really were the integral part … doing all of the grind work that every producer in this room knows and that I now know, having a production company for films I’m not in.”

Adapting to different directors and developing those relationships is crucial to the success of a film. The producers described how collaborating with different stakeholders shaped their projects.

Vachon said “it was a challenge and a joy” to work with the first-time director of Past Lives. During the pandemic, Vachon’s business partner Pamela Koffler reached out to a few agents asking them to send the best script they could regardless of whether someone else already had it. After she read Past Lives, Koffler called Vachon and said, “I just read something fantastic. I don’t think it’s available,

but you need to read it.” A few months later, A24 called about a script in need of a producer. It was Past Lives

Vachon was then asked, “How do you consistently churn out critically acclaimed movies on a budget?”

“It’s just one of those ‘If I told you, I’d have to kill you,’” Vachon joked before getting to the point. “Some of it is just recognizing all the elements—that this is a story we can tell with what the market will bear. That collision of art and commerce is really where we live.”

“The producer’s most important mission is to understand the director,” said Mark Johnson of The Holdovers, “because ultimately, it’s going to be the director’s movie.” After previously working with writer-director Alexander Payne on Downsizing and currently in development on a new project, Johnson has spent a lot of time with Payne. “Every now and then, I think I know what Alexander wants or how he’d approach something, and more often than not, I’m wrong,” Johnson said.

After Johnson realized how important casting, script development, editorial, and location scouting were to Payne, Johnson grasped the value of patience. The academic setting in The Holdovers was shot using six different schools. This specificity was critical to Payne. “I’m trying to move things forward, but I have to be careful that it’s not at my pace,” Johnson explained. “It’s a process that the director, with the help of the producer, has to dictate on their own.”

“Cinema history shows us that when you pair a visionary director with something recognizable, you can win big,” Robbie explained about Barbie. Alongside her partners at LuckyChap, Robbie fought hard for the rights to develop a film about the iconic doll. “James Cameron and the Titanic, Nolan and Batman, Spielberg and dinosaurs—and now, Greta Gerwig and Barbie,” Robbie said.

Barbie got the green light, but was tested with negotiating the budget and convincing others that it would be a four-quadrant movie, not just a “girl mov-

ie,” Robbie recalled. Without that, the budget wouldn’t have been enough to execute Gerwig’s vision. Barbie went on to be the highest-grossing film of 2023.

Recognizing the factors that make a project exceptional is key for a producer. A large part of the job is convincing others that audiences will resonate with the story, which involves incorporating a layer of authenticity.

James Wilson of The Zone of Interest recounted how director Jonathan Glazer used the perspective of Martin Amis’ novel as a “frame in which to pose some interesting questions and look at the subject in a different way.” After discovering the true story that it was based on, they sought to depict that instead of a more straightforward adaptation.

Wilson said, “Johnnie Burn, our sound designer, was struck by this shocking proximity to the camp of this household and garden. That became an epiphany.” Glazer and his team used photos of the original dwelling adjacent to Auschwitz to faithfully recreate it for the film.

To fully depict the performance of Gustav Mahler’s Symphony No. 2, “Resurrection” in his film Maestro, Bradley Cooper conducted extensive research. Along with relying on many collaborators including conducting consultant Yannick Nézet-Séguin and the London Symphony Orchestra, Cooper referenced a 1973 recording of Bernstein’s interpretation.

Cooper explained that one of the greatest things about Leonard Bernstein was his ability to connect with Mahler. In doing so, Bernstein led a revitalization of Mahler’s music. Filming live and on location with some of the same people who played on that 1973 recording was challenging, Cooper recalled, but also “so joyful because everybody was in alignment. When you have 450 people all aiming at the same bull’s-eye, that’s powerful. That’s very exciting.”

“The creative part of this process is so beautifully rich and rewarding, and truly the point of all of it,” Stone said. “Getting to do this job with storytellers is the best part.” ¢

NEW MEMBERS

Produced By trains the spotlight on some of the Guild’s newest members, and offers a glimpse at what makes them tick.

Stephanie Jenkins

With a focus on documentaries, Stephanie Jenkins enjoys nothing more than finding emotionally driven stories and digging deep into film archives. Recent credits include producer on the eight-hour docuseries Muhammad Ali (2021) and coproducer on East Lake Meadows: A Public Housing Story (2020), both with PBS.

Did you have a producing mentor? If so, who was it and what did you learn from them?

I’ve been very fortunate to work with the team at Florentine Films since 2010, where all of my projects have been helmed by directors Ken Burns, David McMahon and Sarah Burns. This team has a deep respect for the process and ritual of making work that often takes five years or more. I’ve learned to listen to the material we have—and to allow myself to be surprised by changes and developments that make stories sing.

Matt O’Neill

Following a career as an actor, Matt O’Neill transitioned into producing features and shorts. Recent credits include crime thriller The Last Stop in Yuma County (2023), which premiered at Fantastic Fest, along with horror films Await the Dawn (2020) and Candy Corn (2019).

Who or what inspired you to go into producing?

I’m an innate storyteller. Always have been. I started my career as an actor, but when I look back, I’ve always had the producer side to me, too. I’ve always been good with people and seeing the big picture. I love helping people, too. Bringing everyone and everything together, building an idea into a tangible reality, whether that idea is my own or someone else’s that intrigues or touches me. I love the collaboration, the team working together to create something new, powerful, and beautiful that hopefully has a positive impact on the world and can maybe inspire even one person. That’s the goal.

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Augie Vargas

Augie Vargas primarily produces live television and specials with a strength in postproduction and a résumé that includes various awards shows. Recent credits include live events Norman Lear: 100 Years of Music & Laughter (2022) and The Give Back-ular Spectacular (2023) as producer, and Miss USA (2023) as executive producer.

Thomas Zimny

Producer Thomas Zimny also directs and edits, and has received Emmy and Grammy awards for his work in music videos and films. Recent producer credits include documentary films The Gift: The Journey of Johnny Cash (2019) and Bruce Springsteen’s Western Stars (2019). Additionally, Zimny served as executive producer on the Paramount+ docuseries Willie Nelson & Family (2023).

Pauline Jones

Possessing a background in media and content production, Pauline Jones is a line producer with a focus on independent features of various genres. Recent line producer credits include horror film The Exorcists (2023), action film Ape vs Mecha Ape (2023), and rom-com Crown Prince of Christmas (2023).

Did you have a producing mentor?

If so, who was it and what did you learn from them?

I’ve had many mentors in my 20+ years in the industry. I’ve watched and sat under the learning tree with the greats of my field including Don Mischer, Ken Ehrlich, Larry Klein, Louis J. Horvitz, Ricky Kirshner, Glenn Weiss and the late Dick Clark.

Did you have a producing mentor?

If so, who was it and what did you learn from them?

Frank Marshall. I learned from him that a person can have an extensive film history but still be open to learning new things, be open to experimentation and be open to trying new things.

What do you love about being a producer?

I love being a producer because it feels like second nature to me. I thrive on using my skills to bring ideas to fruition, turning concepts into tangible realities. There’s a natural flow to the process that energizes me and keeps me engaged. Seeing a project come together from inception to completion is incredibly rewarding, and I find joy in every step of the journey.

Maritza Carbajal

Maritza Carbajal is a line producer and production manager with experience ranging across different media. Recent credits include Venezuelan-American drama The Shadow of the Sun (La Sombra del Sol) (2023) as producer, MTV’s workout series The Challenge Workout (2023) as line producer, and ABC’s nonfiction show Free Enterprise (2021) as associate producer.

What do you love about being a producer?

I love the diversity and challenges that come with being a producer. I thrive on the opportunity to work on a wide range of projects, from documentaries to scripted content, and enjoy the intricacies of managing production logistics. My passion lies in bringing important stories to life.

Guetty Felin

Through her producing, Guetty Felin aims to engage the world, infuse beauty while denouncing injustices, and connect common global humanities. Recent producer credits include the documentary film Seeking Mavis Beacon (2024) from Neon, which premiered at Sundance; transmedia project Life Underground (2017) about subways around the world; and French drama Zombi Child (2019) as coproducer.

What was the most important piece of advice you received about producing?

“You have to learn to cut your cloth.” Advice I heard Mira Nair give to a group of South African budding filmmakers in a workshop she was teaching and that I was filming about 20 years ago. This was quite validating for me. As an underrepresented, underfunded cineast, I am always making films from a place of scarcity. I have no choice but to be resourceful, to be a bit more forward-thinking, sizing up where I am and what I have at my disposal to make things happen without compromising quality. I learned very early on that it was not just about how much I had, and more about what I could get for free or in exchange. My budgets thus far have never been huge, so I am always stretching them. I guess one can say my cloth is like spandex. I wouldn’t mind a little Burmese lotus flower silk or vicuña every now and then. ¢

A

OF VISION AND DETERMINATION

tommy oliver’s powerful business model is rooted in AN impassioned commitment to community and authenticity.

Written

by Lisa Y. Garibay photographed by tameka jacobs

ommy Oliver is a producer, but he is also a DP, an editor, an acclaimed photographer (his photos reside at the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture), a writer, a director, a founder, a CEO, and, most importantly to him, a husband and father. He grew up in Philadelphia, was raised by his grandmother, and worked his way through Carnegie Mellon University where he double majored in digital media and economics.

That training in finance, coupled with tackling almost every behindthe-scenes production role from high school to the present, has made the founder and CEO of the Confluential Company an industry powerhouse.

“There’s Confluential Films and there’s Black Love Inc. Above them both, there’s the Confluential Company,” Oliver explains. Altogether, Confluential produces and finances, but its 20-person team also offers expert photography, marketing, videography, and postproduction services that make the outfit almost entirely self-sufficient, not to mention a tremendous value to those who collaborate with it.

Oliver’s achievements over the past 18 months have been astounding. He was credited as producer or EP on four films that made the 2023 Sundance Film Festival lineup. Three of those films were the first features ever financed by Confluential.

Going to Mars: The Nikki Giovanni Project received Sundance’s documentary grand jury prize, racked up a slew of additional awards and nominations, and was Oscar shortlisted. Young. Wild. Free. was purchased by a distributor and will be released this summer. In February, Fancy Dance was purchased by Apple Original Films; it will make its debut on Apple TV+ on June 28.

Also this February, Confluential announced a new FAST channel on Amazon Freevee showcasing a rich library of existing, licensed content under

“The directors that we revere and love from the ’70s, Coppola and Scorsese and Spielberg and de Palma and Lucas, were all friends who supported each other.

I realized that as Black directors, we didn’t really have that, at least not in a way that was intentional. So I created it.”

the Black Love banner that began in 2017 with a hit docuseries for OWN and expanded into a multiformat universe.

Black Love Inc., cofounded by Tommy and his wife, Codie, has provided the foundation for much of Confluential’s success. The brand is dedicated to promoting healthy relationships within the Black community, from romantic connections to familial bonds to self-love.

As chief creative officer of Black Love, Codie brings a background in broadcast journalism and a degree from USC’s Stark Producing Program to the company’s efforts, which include original series, a podcast network, a website with continually updated original content, a robust social media presence, in-person events, an app, even a forthcoming card game. She also hosts The Mama’s Den podcast.

Codie describes her role as “speaking authentically to the Black audience and coming up with creative from digital to film to packaging to make the projects as strong as possible.” This laser-focused commitment to authenticity has cultivated a large, loyal audience that Black Love can leverage for giant brands like Target, Audible, and Disney.

Each day, the Olivers recommit to adaptability, to staying finely attuned to the broader industry and cultural landscape, to continuing to figure it out through daring and hard work.

James Lopez, president of Macro Film Studios, was the exec on the first studio film Tommy Oliver produced, The Perfect Guy

“I knew he was special when he told me about his background, which included graduating from Carnegie Mellon and taking a job at Microsoft before deciding to become a filmmaker,” Lopez says.

Oliver also told Lopez about Kinyarwanda—a depiction of the 1994 genocide in Rwanda—for which he received his first feature producing credit.

“After hearing his account of what he went through to produce that film, I felt

he was a special being,” Lopez says. “I am not surprised of the strides he has made.”

The Kinyarwanda Story

Oliver came on board Kinyarwanda as the DIT (digital imaging technician).

Three days before the first day of shooting in Kigali, Rwanda, his astute financial eye caught a massive exchange-rate error in the film’s budget. The production couldn’t afford the equipment it planned to get from South Africa and there was not a single light or grip stand available in Rwanda. So, the 24-year-old went into action.

Oliver traversed three African countries by plane and truck (dodging treacherous potholes and troops of baboons) to track down G&E for Kinyarwanda. He negotiated maddening, days-long delays at border crossings among machine gun, machete, and pistol-toting crowds. And that’s the short version of the story.

Oliver and the equipment pulled into the Kilgali base camp just in time.

The film premiered at Sundance in 2011, where it won the World Cinema Audience Award. It won the audience award at AFI. Roger Ebert gave it four

stars and ranked it No. 6 on his top 10 films of 2011.

Today, Oliver and Confluential Films are producing and financing a documentary series with Kinyarwanda director Alrick Brown. “That’s really important to me. My first film doesn’t happen without him,” Oliver says. “Now, we’re able to do something where we can bring him in and support him in an organic way.”

Coming Full Circle

In 2016, Oliver planted a seed he named Directing While Black. “The directors that we revere and love from the ’70s, Coppola and Scorsese and Spielberg and de Palma and Lucas, were all friends who supported each other. I realized that as Black directors, we didn’t really have that, at least not in a way that was intentional. So I created it,” he recalls.

“At the very first dinner were Shaka King pre-Judas and the Black Messiah, Barry Jenkins pre-Moonlight, Steven Caple Jr. pre-Creed and Transformers, Justin Simien pre-Dear White People, and Sheldon Candis, whose next movie we’re producing,” Oliver says.

For Simien, DWB provides catharsis.

“It’s one of very few places to safely and honestly share and mirror experiences with community. A much-needed antidote to the gaslighting you have to just accept in order to Hollywood while Black.”

Simien, who saw huge success with his feature and series Dear White People, will direct an adaptation of Vault Comics’ Heist: Or How to Steal a Planet, with Oliver producing. He believes the most significant impact Confluential is having on the industry is their financing of Black projects.

“It’s crazy that such a thing is still so radical in this town, but it is, especially now,” Simien says. “Many of the Hollywood entities who pledged to do better in the wake of George Floyd have all but given up on us. Tommy stays in the ring fighting the important and necessary fights.”

Within 24 hours of viewing footage sent by Going to Mars: The Nikki Giovanni Project co-director Joe Brewster, Oliver was asking Brewster what he could do to finish the film. Given the quality of what he saw, he was shocked the filmmakers hadn’t yet found the help they needed.

“It’s an incredible story, told

Kena Onyejekwe, Tommy and Cassie Freeman on the set of Kinyarwanda in 2009

unbelievably well, about somebody who means so much,” Oliver says. “The opportunity to join in any capacity as producer or financier shouldn’t have been there. It’s a failure of the system that nobody said yes to that film without wanting to strip away all the things that made it special.”

The second Sundance film, Fancy Dance, brought Oliver back together

with producer Heather Rae, who was EP on his first feature.

“Heather was there when I needed support. She was sage and had more industry experience and connections. It meant so much for us to have the full circle moment with Fancy Dance, a story that she cared about so much,” Oliver says. Confluential financed 90% of the feature.

“Tommy was the best leader we could have had for this special film,” Rae says. “He always came with something to offer and guided the project past the finish line. He impressed with his leadership when he refused to accept offers that didn’t reflect the quality of our film—and sure enough, the right offer came.”

“I really respect that Tommy took a chance on me, a first-time filmmaker

Codie and Tommy Oliver in the Confluential office

Confluential’s last six projects had female directors or co-directors, all of whom are women of color.

Doing What it Takes

It’s worth noting that Oliver was on set for both Fancy Dance in Oklahoma and Young. Wild. Free. in Los Angeles, even though they were shooting simultaneously. One day in particular, Tommy woke up in Oklahoma, went to set for a morning shoot, left for the airport at lunch, and flew to Los Angeles for a night shoot on Young. Wild. Free.

“We can finance, but I’m a producer and I like to be on set. I like to be in the trenches and help figure out what’s going on,” Oliver says.

From the harrowing equipment hunt for Kinyarwanda to the unmitigated success of Black Love to an exciting slate of forthcoming releases (including a modern-day version of Hamlet starring Riz Ahmed), Oliver has channeled sheer grit and financial acumen into a nimble, forwardthinking enterprise.

telling a very personal story about a small Native American community in Oklahoma,” says cowriter and director Erica Tremblay. “He saw the value in what I was trying to do and backed that up with financing and tangible support.”

“A lot of folks in Hollywood claim they support underrepresented voices, but not many are willing to pony up the resources to actually make our projects a reality,” Tremblay adds.

That support includes always answering Tremblay’s calls and texts no matter what. “He’s a very busy guy, but he makes time for his filmmakers. I always know I can count on him to solve whatever it is that I need solved,” she says.

To Live and Die and Live was the third Sundance film crediting Oliver (as EP). Confluential is now financing and producing a doc series with director Qasim Basir. “We are developing two other scripts with him

as well,” Oliver says.

Number four in the Sundance lineup was Young. Wild. Free., which Oliver produced and cofinanced. “Without James Lopez, I don’t make my first studio movie, The Perfect Guy, which he was the exec on,” Oliver says. “So when he needed a partner on Young. Wild. Free., I’m only there because he had supported me earlier. That’s the tapestry that I appreciate and want to be a part of creating.”

“It made total sense that we would do this together. Tommy already had a strong relationship with director Thembi Banks and was convinced she could execute the script written by Juel Taylor,” Lopez recalls. “It was the first time in both of our careers that we produced a film 100% funded by two Black-owned and run companies. It was empowering that we didn’t have to ask anyone.”

At the time of publication, five of

“His experience with and empathy for all dimensions of creating content help him power stories and projects forward,” says Aaron Siegel, global head of entertainment investment banking at Goldman Sachs, who advised Tommy and Confluential on their inaugural capital raise in 2022. “I’m thrilled that we’ve been able to help him support stories and storytellers that have not always had access to the capital and resources Confluential can deliver.”

And this is precisely what Oliver hopes his legacy will be: “The number of women and people of color we’ve been able to support and give opportunities to,” he says. “Everyone from directors, writers, and producers through creative execs, business execs, and vendors who will have careers in this industry long after they’re no longer working with us.”

Producers James Wilson (middle left) and Tommy Oliver on the set of Hamlet with line producer Greg McManus (left), first AD Marc Wilson (right), and director Aneil Karia (far right) in 2023

HOW DID CONFLUENTIAL EVOLVE INTO A ONE-STOP SHOP?

Codie Oliver: When we licensed the Black Love series to OWN (Oprah Winfrey Network) in 2016 (it aired in 2017), they were the distribution partner. They didn’t do any marketing. So a lot of the things that we started to do for Black Love were born out of marketing the series and content we were passionate about within our community.

We did a tour with Black Love couples in different cities. We did a Black Love summit (the sixth edition was held in October 2023), and we launched blacklove.com, which we always planned to do. The thought was, “This will help support the show and get the eyeballs because we are responsible for making sure there’s eyeballs.” We know the Black audience and community doesn’t always get to be seen and celebrated in this way.

Tommy Oliver: When we got to the deal phase with OWN—which was Codie’s top choice—I said to them, “We want to license it to you.” They were like, “You want to do what?” I had made maybe two movies at this point, and we had no company or anything. But we knew there was real potential for success. We ultimately took a criminally low license fee for season one in exchange for being able to own it.

Codie: We came in with the full season. We had done all the interviews. We’d already done the edits and a sizzle. We were not going to anyone without that much done. So we had a lot more leverage in terms of licensing it than we would have if we’d just said, “Here’s a really good idea.”

Tommy: When we had locked picture on all episodes and it was time for color and deliverables, I had a conversation with a handful of places about what it would cost. We would’ve given away something like 30% of our total licensing fee for delivery and color. I was like, “That makes no sense at all.” That’s when I built our first color suite. We also cut the original piece at our dining room table. I did all the deliverables myself for season one.

Black Love premiered as the mostviewed unscripted series debut in OWN network history. It was because we were able to do all those things and reinvest in what we were doing and how we were trying to do it.

All the money that we made from

Black Love we poured back into the community and the company to be able to create things that we could be proud of. Building our brand and community was done from a place of love, care, and wanting to do right by the people who needed the content, who needed the stories.

WHAT ARE THE POSITIONS THAT YOU NEED TO MAKE AN OPERATION LIKE CONFLUENTIAL RUN SUCCESSFULLY?

Tommy: I’m all about ruthless optimization. There are things that we’re doing now that we’re not going to do in six months. And if we’re not doing that, it’s a problem because we’re

Tommy with the Fancy Dance team in 2022: producer Deidre Backs, cowriter Miciana Alise, producer Nina Yang Bongiovi, cowriter-directorproducer Erica Tremblay, and producer Heather Rae.

not being efficient, we’re not being disruptive for ourselves. It’s about finding people who can embrace that, people who are going to challenge me, people who are better than I am at things, and people who are willing to embrace tech and AI.

At the Confluential Company, there’s me and Codie, our head of production, and our head of post. Our head of business and legal affairs is a rock star that we got from Amazon. Our COO is also fantastic. She’s a Harvard Business School grad who was in tech, and she brings a different way of thinking about things.

I cannot read the amount of stuff that comes to us. So you need people who have good taste. You can teach the business, you can teach how to evaluate certain things, but you can’t really teach taste. Ideally, you have somebody who can be that filter.

These are the people we need to get anything done, whether we are evaluating if we’re going to finance something, evaluating what production on something looks like, evaluating what the deal looks like, or doing the deal.

Codie: Our social media team is really important because they are our day-today touchpoint to our community. Our head of partnerships is responsible for not just film and TV projects, but for every other marketing partnership with brands and studios. We have a head of video who oversees everything that’s not a television show or a film, and we have our in-house editors who can turn things around quickly, whether it’s a show, a sizzle for one of those shows, or a sizzle for a TV show that we’re pitching. That’s in addition to the incoming needs of our brand partners where we ask, “What can we make in any of those buckets that we can use for brand storytelling-type conversations?”

HOW DO YOU APPLY THIS RANGE OF SERVICES AND EXPERTISE TO PROJECTS THAT DIDN’T ORIGINATE AT CONFLUENTIAL?

Codie: We’re able to leverage our Black Love audience and platforms to offer anything from straightforward social media marketing to more experiential customized content or events for partners like Disney.

Tommy: We’re just starting to offer our production and postproduction services capabilities to third parties. Heretofore, we’ve only worked on our own productions. But we plan to build that business out quite a bit.

We built up our product and services capabilities to be able to do our projects, not others’. But what usually happens is when Hulu or Netflix or whoever is interested in doing a project needs a production services company, 19 times out of 20, the approvable production services company is a white company, even if it’s a project that is culturally specific.

Now you’ve got a creative who’s forced into a shotgun marriage with folks who don’t necessarily understand. Not that they’re bad people, not that they’re not going to try, but it usually results in all sorts of compromises.

We’re working on a project like this now with Hulu. We’ve delivered to Apple, to HBO, and we’re the production service company on something with Magnolia. We’re also the post and deliverables company. With the exception of sound, we do most of the editorial in-house and all of delivery in-house. We can do all of it from soup to nuts as a partner who understands the nuances of telling a Latine story or an Indigenous story in a way that can be supportive.

Because we have shared production services capabilities, the same team that’s delivering to HBO can work on materials for partners. That runs the gamut from doing a custom campaign with Target, who has been a partner for Couch Conversations for four seasons, or marketing partnerships for projects from Paramount or Audible or Disney.

WHERE WAS CONFLUENTIAL

WHEN YOU DECIDED TO RAISE CAPITAL IN 2022? WHAT DID THAT RAISE ALLOW YOU TO DO?

Tommy: We’ve doubled in size. Our scope has expanded to be able to commission development, and deficit finance docs, docuseries and

Tommy with Sanna Lathan on the set of The Perfect Guy in 2014

unscripted projects. We can cofinance or fully finance films.

We have enough production gear and cameras—Red, Sony, Cannon—to support multiple projects. We moved into a bigger office with edit suites, color suites, and assistant editor and flex stations that we built out to be able to support the most rigorous postproduction processes, up to and including delivering to Apple, which has some of the most technically stringent delivery specs.

WHY DECIDE TO GO THROUGH THE EFFORT AND RISK OF RAISING CAPITAL TO BECOME A FINANCIER WHEN YOU’VE GOT SO MUCH ELSE GOING ON AT CONFLUENTIAL?

Tommy: The Perfect Guy cost $12 million. It opened number one in the U.S., did a total of $60 million at the box office—$57 million domestic, $3 million internationally—and another $40 million ancillaries off a $12 million budget. I made that (indicates a tiny amount with his fingers) much money and I realized that there was a significant misalignment of interest.

I’m perfectly happy for partners to make money, but there should be a way for people to share in what they create. Had I at that point the ability to cofinance that movie, the economics would’ve been fundamentally different.

Confluential is the confluence of art, entertainment, business, and cultural specificity. We’re not going to make something that doesn’t have something to say. But we’re also not going to do things that are financially irresponsible or things that aren’t entertaining.

We don’t put money into projects we don’t produce. We’re not just cutting checks. We are producers. We don’t have to develop stuff from the start, but we are partners on everything that we do. We have very real relationships with the producing partners, director, writer and the whole team.

Codie: Black Love Productions has the

ability to bring an audience because we’re talking to them every day on social. We’re talking to them every week in our newsletter or on blacklove. com. We’re talking to them with events that we’re doing multiple times a year. We’re talking to them through podcasts, YouTube, and now Freevee.

Tommy: Then when we have new movies, we can push it to that audience in an efficient manner. Part of the argument that you’ll get from studios is, “It may be a good movie, but it’ll cost a lot to market, so it’s not quite worth it.” Well, we have a way to do this efficiently or cost-effectively.

The business argument for these projects never should have been, “We’re doing this because we think that it’ll make us feel better.” The projects work. The creatives work. These projects make money. Look at the ROI or the cash-on-cash return for projects from diverse storytellers with diverse casts. They do better empirically.

WHAT ADVICE DO YOU HAVE FOR PRODUCERS WHO ARE

STRUGGLING TO ATTAIN THE GOAL OF OWNERSHIP AND WANT A STRONG ARGUMENT FOR OWNERSHIP WHEN THEY MEET WITH INVESTORS OR DISTRIBUTORS?

Codie: Make sure you’re creating as much leverage as possible, which isn’t easy or always inexpensive. You’re usually making a compromise or a sacrifice to get to the long-term goal that ownership provides. I don’t think that people think about that part of it.

Tommy: Netflix is starting to do deals that are a little bit different—where instead of just a cost-plus deal, it’s more like a TV model. They realized, “We don’t need to own this thing in perpetuity and overpay for it. Instead, what if we have this film for, say, 10 years and pay 70% of it?” Then Confluential or somebody else has a way to bring that extra 30%. So now the studio has paid way less but gets most of the value out of the film much earlier. You’re not going to get more money out of this library title right now, but because you’ve done the deal in a way that takes

Tommy, Algee Smith and Sierra Capri on the set of Young. Wild. Free. in 2022

•

•

care of your future self, in 10 years you have an asset that you can monetize.

EVEN THOUGH YOU WORK HARD TO UNDERSTAND THE BUSINESS, IT’S FRIGHTENING AND FINANCIALLY RISKY TO STAND YOUR GROUND. WHAT’S A RECENT EXAMPLE OF HOW THAT HAS THAT PAID OFF FOR YOU?

Tommy: When Fancy Dance went to Sundance, it was in the middle of a terrible indie market. Buyers did not respond to Lily (Gladstone) in the way that everybody eventually did and that we all knew she and the film deserved. We were encouraged to take a literal $40,000 deal for the film, given it was the best offer we received. I said, “We’re not going to just lock in our losses for a movie that is so well done and meaningful and sitting at 97% on Rotten Tomatoes, even if it’s been eight months.” I was not OK with this being another data point for people to say, “It’s a good movie, but Native movies don’t work commercially or from a business perspective.”

Erica (Tremblay) and Lily were amazing partners. Talk about sitting in your power and being able to use your position to effect change, which is exactly what they did. It was the combination of the producing team, Lily and Erica speaking loudly and unapologetically, along with a willingness to be patient because we knew what we had. Apple made a verbal offer in late December, and we closed the deal the last week of January. Ultimately, Fancy Dance turned into an unmitigated success commercially and financially. The movie is profitable, the film is great, and it shuts down the argument that Indigenous cinema can’t work. Even in boom times, it’s still not easy for creators of color. When times are tighter, their projects are often the first to be cut. It puts more pressure on figuring out how to get stuff through,

how to create leverage, and how to be crafty and diligent in ways that were not as needed before because the number of slots has decreased in a big way. We need to keep moving and figure out how to tell the stories that we’re proud of and make them in the ways that we’re also proud of.

YOU’VE BEEN A DEDICATED MENTOR WITH SUNDANCE, DOC NYC, THE ACADEMY GOLD PROGRAM, AND THE PGA. ARE THERE MENTORS

Tommy and Codie Oliver in Confluential's new editing suite

WHOSE GUIDANCE HAS HELPED YOU SHAPE CONFLUENTIAL?

Tommy: While I have a director buddy village and a producer buddy village, I don’t quite have the same when it comes to being a founder or a CEO running a company. The truth is that raising institutional capital and running/building a company is an incredibly lonely job. But I would happily welcome advisors who can help me see my blind spots and better navigate this crazy-ass industry. ¢

HIS THREE LOVES

Tommy Oliver’s busy workday is bookended by priceless time with family.

Intro by Shaquan Lawson

Three things Tommy Oliver can’t live without: “My kids, my wife and books.”

The founder and CEO of Confluential works to prioritize each alongside his workload. To this end, creativity and efficiency are prized resources, especially when things get complicated. “It’s easy when things are easy. What are you doing when times aren’t good?”

The Olivers created their Black Love docuseries to share accounts of people trying to balance family, relationships, and work, just as they do. It’s a community that is rarely spotlit or spoken to. “Going through life, you sometimes think that you’re alone in something if you don’t have the ability to see your experiences reflected back on you,” says Tommy. On the work side of things, Tommy employs a strategy of kindness and positivity in his producing and business management. “Be a good person, treat people well, and do things that you can be proud of,” he says. “If you can’t do it with a smile, if you can’t do it without compromising your integrity, then there’s a problem.”

What about books? Tommy recently digested 640 pages of The Will of the Many (by James Islington) through a combination of reading the hardback and listening on Audible. “I’m all about finding the efficiencies from the time between when I drop off my kid to the ride into the office. I

Tommy and his kids enjoy a snack.

Below: Tommy with Confluential’s head of post Colt Hansen and postproduction manager Nick Daue.

can listen if I’m not on calls.”

Juggling all of that might look something like this:

Mornings

I wake up around 6 a.m. by the kids or Codie. That morning time is just for kids and breakfast and the occasional email if there’s something that has come in overnight.

I drop off our oldest, Brooks, at school four days a week. I drop off the youngest, Aristotle and Langston, one day a week. They’re all going to the same school next year, and so Codie and I will just swap (dropping them off).

The idea of them going to school on the school bus came up, and I was like, no. I love my time in the morning. Even though it’s not a quick drive, you could not pay me to not have my time together in the car where we just talk about stuff and hang out and goof off.

Then it’s a mix of any number of things. Meeting with the team, a film meeting, a TV meeting, an operations meeting, meetings with writers and directors, meetings about things that we are developing or things that we produce. Reading emails and scripts. There’ll be times when I’m writing, cutting or reviewing. I might have a photo shoot for my Father Noir photography series, which is all about Black fathers and kids. It’s entirely different when we’re in production. It’s all over the place.

Afternoons

Often, somebody will come to the office for a lunch meeting, and we’ll just walk someplace. I don’t care about the scene-y places. I don’t do any of those things that are the ideal of Beverly Hills or whatnot. It’s all about the company I’m with. My favorite lunch spot is someplace I can walk to.

Below: Tommy looks in on a meeting with social media manager Kyle Del Fierro, Codie, talent relations & special projects coordinator Alyssa Steverson, COO Azella Perryman, and legal coordinator Avory

Above: Tommy in his office. Right: Whiteboards in the Confluential office are essential for brainstorming by both kids and grown-ups.

Johnson.

A

After lunch, if I’m not on calls or in meetings, I’m figuring out how to make the most of all the time that I have. I’m learning, spending time with my kids, spending time with my wife, or moving something forward and being really intentional about what that looks like.

The other thing that I’ll do is take calls or Zooms while walking. It’s a fun neighborhood, so I’ll just go outside. I don’t have a lot of time to go to the gym. So if I can take two calls while walking, that’s an hour that I’ve been walking instead of sitting.

Evenings

I cook a lot for my family, and that’s one of the reasons my wife married me. She loves my cooking. My kids love my cooking.

Yesterday I went home a little bit early because my wife texted me that one of our kids asked me to come home early and cook. I thought, OK, there’s stuff that’s not going to happen, so I went home and cooked. Then I started a script I had to read, went upstairs to put kids to bed, and went back to the script after.

What I look forward to most every day is the way my kids look at me when I come home. It’s wonderful every time. It’s a big old hug and kiss, and they’re just fun little buggers.

Brooks and Tommy Oliver at work and at rest. Above: Tommy navigating Confluential’s new office space.

Costume Designers. Your favorite characters would be NAKED WITHOUT US

Costume Designer Trayce Gigi Field, Member of Costume Designers Guild, Local 892 IATSE.

Photo: Robert Reiff

“

HHHHH THE BEST SEASON TO DATE.”

Creativity THE EMBODIMENT OF

Creator Cameron Kostopoulos describes how his 2024 PGA Innovation Award-winning project came to be.

Written by Whitney Friedlander

arents teach kids not to pick on their peers: “You don’t know what it’s like to walk in their shoes.”

But what if it is possible? Director and filmmaker Cameron Kostopoulos offers a way. His virtual reality project Body of Mine allows people to strap on a headset and be transported inside (at least visually) the body of VFX-generated humans to experience how people of different genders, races and shapes move and feel. It’s an immersive experience that incorporates the user’s own body and movements.

Kostopoulos’ intent in creating Body of Mine was to look at the experiences of trans people. He recorded interviews of friends of his who are members of that community about what it feels like when they wear clothing that doesn’t match their gender profile or when they see other people’s reactions to them when they are out in public. These audio recordings play at key moments of Body of Mine as users touch various parts of their own bodies.

“People have that desire to experience being other people, whether that’s the experience of being a celebrity or the president of the United States or just to understand your own child,” Kostopoulos says.

This exercise in empathy is part of why Body of Mine was named winner of the 2024 PGA Innovation Award, which recognizes the production of a noteworthy, impactful emerging media program that significantly elevates the audience’s viewing experience.

“Unlike traditional media, Body of Mine challenges perceptions and fosters empathy by allowing users to inhabit varied bodies and confront their own biases,” says Chris Thomes, who cochaired the award jury with Joanna Popper and Eric Shamlin.

He calls Body of Mine “a standout example of storytelling innovation driven by creativity and ingenuity, rather than corporate backing.

“It defies conventional VR experiences by placing users in the body of a different gender and eliciting powerful insights into the experience of gender dysphoria through interviews with trans individuals,” Thomes adds. “It combines an innovative approach with strong emotional impact embodying diverse identities. Both underscore the transformative potential of VR storytelling.”

AN UNLIKELY CHANCE

Kostopoulos never expected to rise to the top as a nominee, much less win the award. He submitted on a whim. He thought his project, with its low budget and tiny crew, would never stand up against other 2024 nominated projects with better financing, like

the Kansas City Chiefs’ virtual party The World’s Largest Tailgate; or that were so vast in scope, like Felix & Paul Studios’ simulated space travel VR experience Space Explorers: Blue Marble Trilogy

The Innovation Award has been given out to experienced creators backed by large studios as well as indie creators, which Popper says “shows that best-in-class storytelling, innovation and audience engagement truly come from the creator’s creativity and ingenuity.”

In the end, the streamlined way that Body of Mine came together may be one of its greatest strengths. In a way, the newness and accessibility of VR leveled the playing field.

“Unlike physical film and production, where you have to have sets, costumes, and paid actors and people to hold the lights, what I’ve been enjoying about this new approach to cinema is that you can just be a bedroom artist,” Kostopoulos says.

Kostopoulos developed the project while he was an undergraduate at the

University of Southern California’s School of Cinematic Arts, where he graduated summa cum laude with a degree in film and television production and future cinema in 2022. He thought about his own experiences coming out to his religious family in Texas, which resulted in his severing contact with them. Kostopoulos wanted to use new forms of cinema and immersiveness to create a safe space for queer people when a safe space in the real world is hard to find.

Kostopoulos worked with the skills he’d studied, such as the proper way to hold a camera and frame a shot, while also learning how to code and use video game graphics engines like Unreal to build what would become a prototype of Body of Mine as his thesis project.

“Coming from film production, I’d always thought in terms of a frame and a composition,” he says. “With VR, you lose that, but you gain this sense of agency of being able to look around.” Kostopoulos elected not to go the route of many VR games in which a player feels compelled

to move around or use controllers.

Body of Mine’s design is inspired by the hauntingly dark palettes and gothic world-building of Kostopoulos’ favorite filmmaker, Guillermo del Toro. All users begin Body of Mine in the same body cavity, almost as if they are one molecule inside a giant red lung.

Kostopoulos says this has a dual purpose.

“One, it creates a genderless space because we all have lungs. We all have a heart no matter who we are. It also takes this idea of being trapped inside your body to a visual and a metaphorical level. A lot of people who have had gender dysphoria will describe that as being trapped in your body, and so we wanted to recreate that feeling.”

It also ends the same way for every user, with what Kostopoulos cheekily describes as the “Cameron-ification” of the process. “The whole rib cage that you’re in blossoms into this flesh garden as this metaphor for growing into your skin and reclaiming your body and

The Body of Mine team accepting the SXSW 2023 XR Experience Special Jury Award. From left to right: Ethan Denning, Prateek Rajagopal, Cameron Kostopoulos, Evan Siegal, Taylor Woods, Ty Kostopoulos, Charles Anderson.

allowing it to be something beautiful. The whole thing is a hands-free experience because the most important thing about my work is combining the tech with intimacy so it doesn’t feel like tech.”

Instead of aiming to impress with technological advances, he adds, “The way we approached it is very much like a production designer or a worldbuilder would, thinking about things from all angles and thinking about them spatially.”

EMBODYING ANOTHER

Just as a cinematographer would do for a film or TV series, light helps shape the composition and directs users’ gazes toward where they’re supposed to look when experiencing Body of Mine

“A filmmaker is guiding your view, but also gives you the freedom to explore,” Kostopoulos says of this bestof-both-worlds scenario.

The response to the experience was overwhelmingly positive, and the team involved has long since expanded beyond one person’s rudimentary knowledge of coding for his thesis project. Body of Mine team members also include fellow recent USC graduates Evan Siegal, who created the graphics using the 3D Unreal Engine, and Taylor Woods, who served as production designer.

Body of Mine is Kostopoulos’ statement about the commonalities we share as humans. From an execution standpoint, he adds, “I am a filmmaker and a storyteller, and I want to show people that you can use technology in ways that are intimate and that are cinematic.”

The psychology department at Germany’s University of Tübingen, which has a lab that uses immersive technology to study body image, collected data submitted anonymously from 30 users at a public screening of Body of Mine in Frankfurt. The department found that people from a variety of backgrounds felt more accepting of their own bodies after experiencing Body of Mine because hearing other people talk about

the same things they experience normalizes that experience. These findings will soon be published in the open-access research journal Media and Communication

In addition to the PGA Innovation Award, accolades for Body of Mine include a special jury award for VR experience at the 2023 SXSW Film & TV Festival and a 2023 BAFTA Student Award for Immersive.

Kostopoulos recently launched a company to create more immersive experiences like Body of Mine. He also sees a market where traditional filmmaking melds with immersive gaming to create “living experiences, or living stories, where they are these living, evolving things that cannot be experienced twice exactly the same way, but they have the authorship of human storytelling.”

As he describes it, “Living experiences where you’re surrounded by AI characters that fully respond to you, understand you, and engage with you so that you can experience a film or story a thousand times, each one unique. I definitely think that the future is where you have these experiences that have

elements of filmmaking and gaming but it’s uniquely its own thing,” he adds. Body of Mine is currently available via exhibition, but a version of the experience will be available for Meta Quest VR personal headsets this summer. With the help of organizations like the National Center for Transgender Equality and GLSEN—an educational organization that works to end harassment and create safe spaces for LGBTQ students—Body of Mine will soon be available at GLSEN locations and other LGBTQ+ centers as part of an educational module for trans people and their families who might have follow-up questions about specifics like where to go for hormone treatments.

This ethos is carrying on to future projects—ones that are likely to gain legitimacy through recognitions like the Innovation Award.

“I think, traditionally, the studios and Hollywood see VR and immersive as fringe, even as big players like Apple are entering the space,” Kostopoulos says. “I really want to show Hollywood that this is not fringe—this is actually where things are heading, and there’s a huge opportunity here.” ¢

A still from Body of Mine

GETTING IT DONE

His work may be in the virtual space, but creator and producer Cameron Kostopoulos—whose virtual reality experience Body of Mine is the 2024 recipient of the PGA’s Innovation Award—needs both the tactical and the technical to get through the workday. He also needs to do a lot of stretching.

Written By Whitney friedlander

SHARPIE S-GEL 0.7 PENS IN BLACK

“I have to use that pen because even though I make things that are digital, it always starts with a notebook and a pen,” Kostopoulos says.

He also spins the pens around his fingers while talking, something he’s done since high school. It helps him think. “I had a friend in biology class who could do it and I was like, ‘What are you doing? How do you do that?’ So I forced myself to learn.”

MORNING PAGES

Pen spinning is one of the “artist’s brain activities” that Kostopoulos learned from Julia Cameron’s book The Artist’s Way: A Spiritual Path to Higher Creativity Another is the process of “morning pages.”

Kostopoulos begins his mornings with his trusty Sharpie and handwrites three pages in a journal the size of a paperback novel. Freed from the easy-tocorrect nature of a laptop, Kostopoulos takes a few moments to jot down whatever comes to his mind each morning. Sometimes he’ll ask others to write messages to him in these books, such as a page-long letter from a friend he’d met on a trip to Switzerland.

“Doing this first thing in the morning is like dumping your brain of all the gunk that’s in there, so you can actually get to the creative part.” But, he adds, “It’s also a way of training yourself to not separate good ideas and bad ideas, but just let ideas flow.” It could be complaints about the exercise itself, his dreams, or an idea he’s mulling.

UNREAL ENGINE

Kostopoulos uses the computer graphics game engine

Unreal for both his immersive and live-action work.

“When I’m doing live-action work, I use Unreal Engine to storyboard, to work remotely with production designers and cinematographers, to scout a location, and to set-dress it,” he says. “Even with live action, that gives me a lot of creative freedom without burning through a budget because we got a couch and decided we didn’t like it. Or we got all this wallpaper and decided we wanted a different color. Or even saving a day of blocking with an actor because we’re able to do it all digitally.”

He says he prefers Unreal versus alternatives like Unity because the former is more of a filmmaker’s tool for designing immersive, interactive work. “It allows me to do interactive stuff without having to have a computer science background.”

Cameron also uses the photo-specific AI service Midjourney to help with storyboards and to create looks, line up shots and communicate with artists.

“Sometimes I’ll have an idea for something, and I’ll just spend 30 minutes ideating on it in Midjourney until I get the exact thing I want.”

CHATGPT

Kostopoulos sees the controversial AI-generated writing platform as “a writers room.”

“It doesn’t make good dialogue and doesn’t usually have good ideas, but what it does do is let you think about things in a different way,” he says. “I treat ChatGPT as a journal that talks back to me. Sometimes I’ll just brain-dump into ChatGPT just to ask it a question. Having an instant response and an instant challenge to what you’re doing can sometimes help you think in a different way, even if you don’t use any of its ideas.”

As he is not fluent in coding, Kostopoulos will sometimes ask ChatGPT to write code for him. “I’m able to make interactions without learning how to code, which opens up the world of interactive to a whole new group of people who don’t come from that coding background,” he explains.

BACK ROLLER

Considering how much time Kostopoulos sits at his computer, it’s not a surprise when he says that buying a foam back roller changed his life. He didn’t put much thought into the brand of roller, and says he probably just bought the first one he found on Amazon.

“Feeling your back pop is the best feeling,” he says with a laugh. ¢

The VFX

The demand for visual effects offers opportunities for producers who keep abreast of the evolution of the sector.

Written by Whitney Friedlander

It can seem that visual effects are exploding everywhere both on and off screen as entry-level producers as well as seasoned producers move to get on board the world of computer-monitored effects.

VFX has also had a “geeks shall inherit the earth” moment in that what was once stereotyped as fringe or extremely complicated has moved into the mainstream.

Relevant credits racked up by PGA members include visual effects producer, visual effects production supervisor, co-visual effects producer, executive producer of visual effects, visual effects coordinator, visual effects production manager and visual effects supervisor. Some members began in VFX, while others transitioned later in their producing career. If someone wanted to follow that lead, what should they know to successfully navigate these waters and discover opportunities within the VFX sector?

THE LEARNING CURVE

With a hypercompetitive media market that needs to give audiences seemingly flawless content at breakneck speed, it’s no longer a question of, “Can we fix it in post?” as much as “How much will this cost us to fix it in post?”

“Most of the time, the answer today is yes, you can probably fix most everything. But that doesn’t mean it’s easy to fix or inexpensive to fix,” says Raymond McIntyre Jr., a seasoned VFX artist and a 2024 recipient of the Visual Effects Society Award for Outstanding Supporting Visual Effects in a Photoreal Episode for his work in the HBO series Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty

McIntyre, who runs the LA-based visual effects house Pixel Magic with general manager Ray Scalice, says that as recently as half a decade ago, productions started increasing their postproduction visual effects work in order to make their filming days go faster.

The caveat here, he says, is that “once you start having hundreds of fixes and post shots that you didn’t budget for or allow for, then you’re going to have a big issue. It doesn’t matter how simple they are when you start having hundreds upon hundreds of them.”

Visual effects can, and should, be an integral part of production design, such as when VFX producer Parker Chehak and other members of the PGA Award-winning team behind Prime Video’s period comedy The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel recreated Technicolor-style picture postcards of 1962 Miami. But these producers often have to think beyond a day’s shot list.

McIntyre cites another period project where the location manager had secured two street blocks that production design would convert to a different time and place. But modern cars and other buildings could still be seen in the distance. McIntyre knew that eventually he’d be asked to make them disappear.

YOU GOTTA KNOW THE TERRITORY

This is why it’s key that someone who understands costs, budgets and deadlines—someone who is also a good communicator—be involved with visual effects production. These are the hallmark traits of any professional producer.

“It’s management skills; you need people skills to deal with clients and to be on set,” says Elizabeth Hitt, whose recent credits include serving as a visual effects producer for such TV series as Frasier and Magnum, P.I., and visual effects production supervisor for the film The Boys in the Band

For someone looking to segue into VFX, those management skills must be complemented by solid knowledge of the arena. “You need to make sure that your crew, the people that you’re working with, have the confidence that you know what you’re doing.”

In these cases, she suggests taking a slightly lower role until the person gets their bearings because inevitably there’s going to be a day on set when a client asks how much a VFX change or fix is going to cost.

“If you don’t know all the steps involved, you could misquote and put yourself and the company at risk and ruin some relationships,” Hitt says.

This isn’t to say that a visual effects producer has to have the same knowledge of the technology as a visual effects supervisor, who is on set and in charge of all the VFX shots and therefore knows how to modulate and build out computer-generated worlds.

“The technology that’s used is complex, but as a producer, you just have to have an understanding of what is being done in the pipeline,” says Thurman Martin III, a visual effects producer with the New York City-based creative studio The Artery, whose credits include the Apple TV+ comedy

Palm Royale and the upcoming film adaptation of the Colson Whitehead novel The Nickel Boys

VISUAL V. VIRTUAL V. SPECIAL

Susan Zwerman, a seasoned VFX producer and educator who got into this part of the industry after years as a unit production manager, points out that visual effects production shouldn’t be conflated with XR—virtual effects production and filming in front of an LED screen that will incorporate CGI sets and real-time edits. Those come with a different understanding of budgets and skill sets.

“VFX producers have to learn how to break down a script in terms of what can be practical, on-set effects or what has to be visual effects created in post,” says Zwerman, who is the co-author of The Visual Effects Producer: Understanding the Art and Business of VFX.

It’s both a blessing and a curse that the technology itself is, as Chehak puts it, “an ever-changing landscape” where everyone has to keep up with the times.

“I think that there are a lot of preconceived notions that people have of what’s doable and what’s not, and that can go both ways,” he says. “You have these articles now about how AI de-aged Indiana Jones (for the 2023 film Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny). But it’s not viable on a practical level. It’s not that the results aren’t as good; it’s just new technology that’s not quite there yet.”

EXPENSIVE PUZZLE-

SOLVING

Chehak says that VFX can do a lot and that there’s no right or wrong way to

“VFX PRODUCERS HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO BREAK DOWN A SCRIPT IN TERMS OF WHAT CAN BE PRACTICAL, ON-SET EFFECTS OR WHAT HAS TO BE VISUAL EFFECTS CREATED IN POST.”

do anything, but that it’s a matter of what can be done with what we have in terms of time, money and technology.

Taste is also important. This section of the industry is so fastidious that a minuscule change can make a world of difference. It can be like a very expensive puzzle-solving game.

“Any visual effects shot goes through a long process of revisions, and the devil’s in the details,” Chehak says. “The difference between an acceptable shot and an excellent shot is very small. Figuring out what’s wrong with

something and pushing it over the line is what makes shots great.”

From his perspective, there’s no accepted right way to do anything in visual effects like there’s a right way to do things in most aspects of our industry.

“It’s all about being careful and clever in the choices that you make, and being able to pivot very quickly,” Chehak says.

”It’s a lot of the same producer skills that any producer would have, just hyperfocused on this one aspect of the end product.”

THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING CURRENT

McIntyre has worked in VFX since the 1980s. But he says that if you’re not the type of person who is constantly learning, then “This probably isn’t the side of the industry to be in, because it does constantly change.”

McIntyre adds: “I read a lot. I pay attention to what other people like myself do, and I try to learn from them if they’re doing something different.” At the time of this interview, he was learning about the 3D radiance rendering program Gaussian Splatting. “We used to do it with photogrammetry,” he explains. “Now, there’s a new methodology. If I don’t start learning about it right away, I will be behind.”

Expertise in VFX can be as much about how to use these tools as it is about when to use them—how to explain to directors and other creative heads that doing it a certain

way will save money and time, and knowing what a production shouldn’t do as much as what VFX can do.

“There are plenty of movies and other examples where they shot in front of a virtual production screen, then rotoscoped every single character and replaced the background. So they paid for it twice,” McIntyre says.

Zwerman says she takes seminars, both in person and online, to learn about such topics as the changes happening in artificial intelligence and technology. She also practices the dying art of calling people on the phone to ask them about their work. Working in VFX is also about being pragmatic about how technology may eliminate jobs.

“It’s going to impact the business somewhat,” Hitt says of AI in particular. “People will lose some jobs. But you can educate yourself and learn software, and if you are really good, you can get hired almost anywhere.”

Plus, Hitt adds, software makes mistakes. “You need a human to look through footage and go, ‘Oh, look, there’s a microphone still attached to a tie,’” she says. ¢

ONE ON ONE

The Scrappy Approach

With the world of documentary and unscripted hit by a greatly diminished demand for content, two veterans advise producers to stay nimble, open and focused on the reality of the now.

Intro by Lisa Y. Garibay

In 1986, Fenton Bailey and Randy Barbato produced the debut album of a little-known performer named RuPaul. The partnership between these creators, born in Manhattan’s nitty-gritty underground art and queer scene, laid the foundation for a Drag Race empire that has spanned 16 seasons in the U.S. along with wildly successful spinoffs and international versions including Brazil, Germany, Mexico, Sweden and Thailand. RuPaul’s Drag Race has been lauded with four PGA Awards and 31 Emmys, and the empire seems poised only to expand.

Formally launched in 1991, World of Wonder Productions has bolstered its success well beyond the massive Drag Race ecosystem, which includes both spinoffs and inspired-by original programming, hit soundtrack releases, a mobile app, and annual DragCon events. The company’s smash unscripted series Million Dollar Listing has run for 24 seasons and spun off three additional titles. WOW’s unscripted portfolio includes Small Town News and Catch and Kill for HBO, True Crime Story: Citizen Detective for AMC+ and Island Hunters for HGTV.

WOW’s reach also extends to acclaimed feature-length documentaries, including Inside Deep Throat, Wishful Drinking, Becoming Chaz, The Eyes of Tammy Faye, and Out of Iraq. And the company is no stranger to narrative features, with credits like Party Monster and Menendez: Blood Brothers, with more in the pipeline.

On top of it all, there’s WOW Presents Plus, a hit global streaming service for original content.

Bailey, Barbato and WOW have more than 250 credits as producers and several dozen as co-directors. The cofounders appear tireless in their output and fearless in their experimentation, the majority of which is rooted in unscripted and documentary.

With the future of these formats shaky for everyone involved, Produced By turned to these veterans—whose success is rooted in the unknown, the unlikely, and the defiant—for insight into how producers might weather this storm, the size and duration of which no one seems capable of predicting.

FENTON BAILEY

RANDY BARBATO

(This conversation has been edited for clarity.)

THE INDUSTRY TODAY

BAILEY: We’re in a different world and we’re not going back to the way it was. There is the financial anxiety of being out of work as well as the sense of rejection and the sense of not having a purpose. Those are really challenging things, but rather than hoping for a return to normal, we’ve all got to accept it’s a different world. It sounds really pessimistic, but I’m not pessimistic. Because in a creative way, there is more opportunity than ever.

On the one hand, you’ve got an industry that is very much cutting back and slimming down. But on the other hand, everybody’s a creator. Whether the platform is Netflix or Instagram or Snapchat, everybody has in their pockets the means to create content. That is a radical, profound change.

BARBATO: You’re potentially not going to be able to make the kind of income you have in the past, but you might have more creative freedom.

It’s an environment that’s creating anxiety not just for content makers, but also for the people on the other side, the people who are commissioning. Most people don’t know if they’re going to have a job next week. The lack of knowing what’s in store for the future is not just an us-versus-them situation. I think we’re all in it together.

Everybody’s trying to figure it out. The bad news is no one knows, and the good news is no one knows. If no one knows, there’s a chance you might be the person to figure it out.

BAILEY: Across our industry, traditional divisions of labor and traditionally defined roles have all gone by the wayside. You are the director, the actor,

“BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, EVERYBODY’S A CREATOR. WHETHER THE PLATFORM IS NETFLIX OR INSTAGRAM OR SNAPCHAT, EVERYBODY HAS IN THEIR POCKETS THE MEANS TO CREATE CONTENT.”

—FENTON BAILEY

the brand, the producer, the editor. Being a producer today is about flexibility and wearing many, many hats.

BARBATO: What it takes to make not even a great producer, but a producer who sticks around, is knowing how to pivot, how to adapt. People who can do a little bit of everything have the best shot.

Depending upon what the project is, you also need to attract a team and have the confidence and security to surround yourself with people who are more talented than you are. RuPaul’s Drag takes a village, people! We, (EPs) Tom Campbell and RuPaul have a team that have been working on that project for over a decade, and they are geniuses. We are very lucky to have a project that can sustain that size of a team.

We’re putting together a scripted feature film right now. We have a great script. We financed the script. We attached a great director to it. We’ve got names attached to it. We have two offers to finance it, a domestic and an international one. But the money doesn’t quite match the budget. Maybe 10 or 15 years ago, we’d be like, “OK, we’re going to make this money work.” But we’re not going to make this money work. So we’re putting a pin in it. If we can’t get that money, we’re going to find that money. It is a movie that is drag related, and it is a movie that we’re like, “We are releasing this theatrically, no matter what” because we really believe it will translate that way. It’s a big, stupid, broad, fun comedy. It’s what everybody wants that isn’t in the movie theaters.

BAILEY: Everyone says, “People don’t want to go to movies anymore.” That’s not true! They want to go to something that’s going to engage them, that they can feel a part of. That was a great thing about Barbie, right? That was a great thing about Taylor Swift’s concert movie. You can, like, be in it! It’s almost like the Rocky Horror model of theatrical is still alive and kicking.

BARBATO: For all the doom and gloom, it’s important for everyone to know their value. That might mean holding on a little to create the kind of deal (you want). There’s something about queerness that gets people to lowball.

World of Wonder has its own streaming network, WOW Presents Plus, which is a way for us to explore producing content on our own and to build a community. We’re cheaper than all the other streamers, and we don’t intend to give them a run for their money, but we do intend to create an opportunity and to build a community, not just for ourselves, but also for young producers and directors and talent.

That business opportunity is really our team seeing what’s going on in the landscape and trying to not always rely on other people for our livelihood.

BREAKING INTO DOC AND UNSCRIPTED

BARBATO: Celebrity and true crime are what so many outlets want because everybody wants something marquee; everyone wants something that they can go big with. But the reality is, the way to bring an idea to someone is access, access, access.

There are still outlets that are turned on by an idea and are successfully playing the game and delivering marquee subjects, but also taking big creative swings and risks. They aren’t just working with big established companies or names. Their door is open for ideas. But it has to be more than the idea. It has to be some kind of access.

BAILEY: The barrier to entry is how far you’re able to develop something before you take it out. It used to be that you could just pitch an idea with some access, but it could all be an idea on paper. Then it became, “You’ve got to have tape.” And we’re now entering an era where the sizzle is not enough.

I think the model going forward is much more you have to just start producing it for real yourself. The work-in-prog-

ress model is more likely to be successful because you’re not taking around an idea saying, “Please invest in this, please buy this.” You’re like, “We’re doing this. Do you want to be a part of it?”

It also points to the evolving, collaborative, coproduction, cofounded model, where it’s a little bit of anything from everywhere, rather than just going to one place that says, “OK, we’ll buy all the rights; we’ll take this.”

Also, if you are a creator, why would you want to give your idea over to someone just because they’re paying for it—give up all ownership and interest in that so-called work-for-hire model? It isn’t entirely fair for the person who’s coming up with the idea and doing the development and getting the access.

BARBATO: For young people who really don’t have an enormous amount of experience or track record, it’s about thinking of creative potential partners— whether it’s other talent, or talent with a production company that makes sense. It is that scrappy thing of saving your money and shooting some stuff if you have the access and you have someone who’s agreed to sit down.

At World of Wonder, we have maybe four feature docs right now in some state of development-slash-production. We do things so cheap. I mean, we come from the East Village. Our whole method of production is the starving kitty method. We’ve rarely had a huge budget, so we try and produce stuff in-house as long as we possibly can before we take it out to market or pitch it around to outlets. Then theoretically, we might have some leverage with a deal.

One thing a producer should know is how to read a contract, because it really helps! Yes, we have lawyers, but they’re so expensive. Especially early on, it’s really helpful to be able to figure that stuff out yourself and to be able to build a deal.

It’s great that there’s a global market, but someone has to make those connections and relationships. Very few of us can hire a team of lawyers and agents.

The scrappy approach is useful, even in times of success.

PLAYING THE GLOBAL FIELD

BAILEY: We learned early on with Drag Race that if the audience in Australia had to wait six months to see the U.S. show, they were really mad about it. That was one of the key factors in launching WOW Presents Plus. The idea that you have to wait to see something that’s been released in another country is over and done with.

Also, I think the biggest successes will often come from a very specific market and be a very specific kind of show. They’re not being created by a research-and-development machine to be globally appealing. They’re very specific, like Squid Game the drama and Squid Game the reality show.

It’s not easy, but it never was and never will be. But there are more places to find funding, and there are a lot more models to explore. WOW Presents Plus will produce Drag Race Philippines, and then we’ll do a license to a global streamer, but it’s a local license. HBO has Drag Race Philippines streaming in the Philippines, for example.

In every country where Drag Race has appeared so far, oftentimes we are dealing with all sorts of assumptions by executives that maybe drag doesn’t belong on TV, or maybe there aren’t that many drag queens in that country, or that it just doesn’t exist in that community, or that the audience isn’t ready for it.

BARBATO: It’s “culturally inappropriate.”

BAILEY: That is an often years-long process of persuasion, and hopefully riding a climate of cultural change, which can go in both directions. On the one hand, we’ve seen great strides and progress in our careers. There was a time when we ourselves would never imagine there could be a show like Drag Race on MTV, winning 30 Emmys.

Really, seriously, never!

Then there are still places where culturally it’s a real challenge. The safety of our participants is absolutely paramount. We take great efforts to make sure that everyone who participates in the show is safe, and that their families and loved ones are safe. But we’re very optimistic, perhaps naively so. Drag Race Russia may be a few years off, but I believe it will happen. And Drag Race China, too.

We have a saying at World of Wonder that no is the beginning of yes because you only need one person to say yes and the whole conversation changes. There are countries that we’re in negotiation with to bring Drag Race where there’s a tremendous amount of opposition. But we found that everywhere it’s gone, it’s done phenomenally well. France Television was skeptical that it would work. Then they got a 15% share, and they’re like, “WTF?” or whatever they say in French.

inspiration. The first project we did with him was Catch and Kill, adapting his podcast and book into a TV series. Randy and I knew of Ronan as this award-winning reporter. So, when he expressed a desire to go on Drag Race as a judge, we were like, “What? You’re a New Yorker reporter!”

But that’s what’s so inspiring about Ronan. He won’t be boxed in. He can be a judge on Drag Race telling jokes, but it doesn’t in any way undermine his ability to do hard-hitting, really important reporting.

Once you can get past that barrier and air the show, people love it. It’s made by queer people and features queer people. However, it is not just for queer people! It is an entertaining show that everybody fundamentally can relate to because it’s about outsiders, and everybody, gay or straight, at some point feels like an outsider.

BARBATO: Drag Race goes beyond the perceived marginal LGBTQ community, which isn’t that marginal. The Q part is way broader than people understand.

BAILEY: Queer is the human condition. It’s not a sexual minority. I think that’s what people are beginning to recognize, which is good, because we’re fighting this endless struggle of prejudice and people trying to turn the clock back, when in fact we are all essentially one.

“FOR ALL THE DOOM AND GLOOM, IT’S IMPORTANT FOR EVERYONE TO KNOW THEIR VALUE. THAT MIGHT MEAN HOLDING ON A LITTLE TO CREATE THE KIND OF DEAL (YOU WANT). ”

—RANDY BARBATO

BREAKING OUT OF THE BOX

BAILEY: You have to fight being boxedin every step of the way. Working with Ronan Farrow has been a great

BARBATO: I think sometimes people expect us to show up in pitch meetings in heels and a wig and they get a little disappointed if we have a flannel shirt and jeans on. But we bring our queer perspective to everything we do, like Million Dollar Listing. Back when we first started, there wasn’t a lot of real estate on TV. Real estate is queer, I tell you! We’ve been obsessed from a certain perspective, and I think we bring that to the way we produce that show.

BAILEY: An audience is made up of individuals. Even though there’s always this research talking about demographics and the 18-to-25, I think that there’s a consequence to thinking of the audience as some block that can be programmed. They can’t be, because it’s a mass of completely individual people. I also think the algorithm is misleading in the sense that it tells you what people have watched, but it doesn’t tell you what people will watch. Everybody’s freaking out about AI, right? Artificial intelligence is not really intelligence. It’s just the massive amount of stuff that has been done. It fundamentally does not innovate. It does not rob us of our future. It is like anything else in media—video or film or word processors or typewriters or printing

PHOTO BY DICK RICHARDS

presses. They’ve always been seen as dire threats, but they’re tools for us to express ourselves and communicate with each other in different ways.

BARBATO: The difference with the climate right now is how much many outlets and executives are slaves to the algorithm. Many things that have been hits in the past or sleeper hits would not have the opportunity to break through. We know that because there have been movies and TV series that take off in the second season. Those opportunities will potentially not exist in the future.

BAILEY: Like, explain Suits. How come? It’s exciting because there is a magic. It isn’t something that can be bottled.

BARBATO: A hundred years ago, we did a series for Trio called Brilliant But Canceled. There should be a streaming service with all the canceled shows!

Why make Suits a hit for the second time when there are huge warehouses full of these shows that are shelved that are so good?

BAILEY: This is the other interesting thing: What defines a hit? Everybody thinks it’s just ratings, but some things that never were hits had huge cultural influence and were touchstones. David Bowie didn’t sell any records until Let’s Dance. Even though pop music was seen as something that had no real cultural weight, Let’s Dance fundamentally changed everything!

It’s not all about hits. It is about doing it and finding ways to do it.

I have a little story about The Zone of Interest. The producer, Jim Wilson, worked at World of Wonder on our first TV commission, Manhattan Cable, which was collecting all these clips from public access. One thing I especially love about the film is that they filmed it in

a house they rigged with cameras Big Brother style, and within the house, the cast had the freedom to improvise.

I love that, because to me, that speaks to the fact that we tend to think in silos.

We tend to think, “This is a Hollywood movie. This is an Oscar-winning movie.”

Or “This is a TV show” or “This is unscripted,” and that there’s this sort of disparity that one is culturally valuable and the other is not. Yet the genius of The Zone of Interest owes so much from a production point of view to the tropes and ideas of reality television.

People act as if they’re two different worlds, scripted and unscripted. They’re not. There is such a range of means and methods to tell a story that are valid. That will include rigging a place with cameras, or that may include using AI. I see it as another tool in our creative toolbox, in the same way that unscripted can be a tool, all in service to the story we are telling.” ¢

Barbato and Bailey in World of Wonder’s booth at 2002 DragCon LA.

PHOTO BY JENNIFER GRAYLOCK

A GOOD TIME FOR THAILAND

When you add fresh new incentives to Thailand’s beauty, warmth and cuisine, it becomes an almost irresistible location for film & TV production.

Written by Robert Baker

Thailand is known the world over as “the land of smiles,” and with good reason. Its legendary hospitality, inviting beaches, and unparalleled beauty has made it a destination for tourists, adventurists, and, of course, film producers. Who wouldn’t want to film in the land of smiles?

Producers have long understood Thailand’s unique charms. A long list of distinguished films have been shot on location in Thailand, from The Deer

Hunter (1978) to The Killing Fields (1984) to The Beach (2000) to Da Five Bloods (2020). And production is ramping up. U.S. companies spent $90 million shooting 34 productions in Thailand in 2023, out of a total of 466 foreign productions from over 40 countries.

“It is always exciting to see independent producers looking to produce in Asia,” says Susan Lee, senior regional director for production and trade policy for the Motion Picture Association, Asia

Pacific Headquarters. “It is a good time to be thinking about Thailand.”

DID SOMEONE SAY INCENTIVE?

Thailand’s long film history notwithstanding, the Thai government did not offer substantial incentives to producers until 2017. Under that scheme, producers received a 15% rebate on all eligible local expenditures and could receive an additional 5% if they met certain criteria. It was a step in the right direction.

Filming The Creator on location in Thailand.

“Since Thailand launched the incentive program in 2017, we have worked to get them up to speed on how international producers decide where they want to shoot,” says Lee. “Incentives are a big part of it.”

Thailand faces big competition from neighboring countries that have offered much larger incentives, usually in the form of rebates. So it was welcome news when the Thai cabinet approved a plan to increase rebates to 30% starting in 2024, capped at 150,000,000 baht (roughly $4.2 million). This came on the heels of Thailand’s announcement that it would waive personal income taxes collected on foreign talent working in the country.

“The Thailand Creative Culture Agency (THCCA) is a new organization with a mission to promote the creative industries in Thailand,” says Wannasiri Morakul, chair of the International Film and Video Licensing Board in the Thai Film Office (TFO). THCCA will represent and advocate on behalf of creative fields like literature, food, music and dance, and film. One of its prime objectives is to make the rebate incentives permanent.

It is all part of what the Thai government has billed as its new focus on “soft power,” broadly defined as promoting Thai culture—food, music, martial arts and film. Lee hopes it will come through. “There is an anticipation that they will be able, hopefully, to raise the subsidies permanently to 30%.”

GET A LOCAL COORDINATOR

On one point, there can be no debate—a local coordinator is essential. Film permits can only be obtained from local coordinators licensed by the Thai Film Office. TFO keeps an up-to-date list of coordinators and is happy to share, although they will not advocate one over another.

“Knowing the right people on the

ground is key,” says Nicholas Simon, owner of Indochina Productions, a production company based in Bangkok. Local coordinators do everything from location scouting to finding local production crews to navigating tricky situations.

“Misunderstandings and miscommunications between international film producers and Thai crew can happen,” says Morakul. “The way to avoid this is to make sure you work with a licensed local coordinator. They are trained and experienced, and they all have the service mindset.”

Ron Schmidt was executive producer on HBO’s show The Sympathizer (2024), filmed on location in Thailand. He emphasized how important it was to have a local production service company that worked closely with government officials in all the different regions where they shot.

“We wanted everyone to know it was a privilege to work in their country and in their home and that we would embrace their culture, people and crew with respect and kindness,” says Schmidt. “We worked closely together with government officials to have a solid production plan, and I’m happy to report that we were able to avoid any major issues.”

DON’T OVERLOOK

LOCAL

TALENT

“A lot of people talk about the rebates, and some countries give higher rebates,” says Chalermchatri “Adam” Yukol, a Thai producer who also sits on the government-appointed soft power committee. “But what makes Thailand a great destination is its great film ecosystem.”

Thailand has been a site for film production long enough to have nurtured excellent human resources. Most of the studios, crew and actors are based in Bangkok, where decades of filming have helped to build the necessary knowledge base for skilled

services and personnel.

“If you work as crew on an international production, and you are good, you tend to be called back to work again,” says Lee. “Thai crews have earned that reputation.”

They certainly have. Producers regularly report that the local crews are strong, in terms of both work ethic and skill sets. Favorable exchange rates mean that local crews are also relatively inexpensive, a good mark for the bottom line of productions. Hiring Thai crews also helps activate certain rebates, making it a double bonus.

“We always had the intention of employing local Thai crew in senior positions on the movie, and we ended finding not only an exceptional production team, but also our production designer, costume designer, key grip, and gaffer in Thailand, all of whom were excellent,” says James Spencer, a producer on The Creator (2023), shot on location in Thailand. “Overall, the Thai crew were phenomenal. They worked unbelievably hard and were a total pleasure to collaborate with.”

When asked how to stretch budgets, Schmidt bluntly advises to hire more Thai crew members. “I consistently got the same message from producers who shot there before me,” says Schmidt. “They wished they had hired more Thai crew, because they were just as talented and experienced as the foreign crew that were brought in.”

Thai crew are talented and efficient and notably warm. Producers regularly talk about how much they have cherished their experience with their crews, from the smiles to the positive body language to the genuine kindness.

Schmidt recounts the story of the crew finding an injured puppy at one of their location shoots. The puppy was suspicious but stayed close by. The crew (both Thai and American) left food and water for him until they had gained his

trust. They all pitched in to cover the costs of surgery on the puppy’s wounded leg, as well as a year’s worth of food and toys. After the shoot was over, one of the Thai crew members adopted the dog and brought him back to Bangkok.

The only downside to having talented, efficient and genuinely kind crews is that they will attract more and more producers to film in Thailand, and this may strain resources.

“If they get the incentives to 30%, there will be a much bigger demand for resources, crew and facilities,” says Lee. “And if that happens, Thailand will have to work on increasing its crew base to keep up with demand. It will certainly be essential for producers to plan ahead.”

INFRASTRUCTURE RISING

Assuming production ramps up in 2024 and 2025, the strain on resources may be most pronounced with soundstages and film studios. Thailand’s current studio infrastructure is mighty but small.

“There are soundstages in Bangkok, which were definitely serviceable, but maybe not to the degree where I would take an entirely stage-based movie to Bangkok,” says James Spencer. “Having said that, they were great for a few days and perfect in terms of staging the handful of pickups we needed at the end of the shoot.”

Producers we spoke with rarely mentioned relying on the Bangkok studios, and a few spoke openly about the need for more infrastructure. “We don’t have enough studios,” says Chidchanok “Pam” Plodripu, a line producer on The Creator “We have wonderful locations, hidden gems, everything, but we need more studios as well.”

Studio construction is not something that will happen overnight. Nonetheless, it represents an opportunity. “The Thai government is looking for private partnerships to help build up those services,” says Lee. “They would welcome the exchange of expertise and the investment.”

DIVERSITY, DIVERSITY, DIVERSITY

Thailand is one place where the phrase “unparalleled beauty” does not feel like an exaggeration. The vigorous forests, dramatic mountains and inviting beaches offer filmmakers a lush palette for creating any kind of mood.

“The Creator was a location-driven movie, and we shot on 75 locations as far north, east, south and west as you can go,” says Spencer. Logistics on that shoot were complex, as cast and crew traveled more than 4,500 miles by the end of shooting. “I would definitely advise having a plan and sticking to it. In terms of securing locations, the police were always helpful, and you require very little security in Thailand, even when shooting in Bangkok.”

And if Thailand’s beaches are famously picturesque, wait until you find the hidden gems.

“We filmed in a location that features this massive rock formation that looks almost too monumental to be real,” says

EP Susan Downey, star/EP Robert Downey Jr., and showrunner Don McKellar on the set of The Sympathizer in Thailand.

Camera operator Rittikorn Manonom, EP Nicholas Simon, production manager Nathacharleeya Seupsaengsulwan, and line producer Atchariya Pinitsanpirom on set in Bangkok.

Susan Downey, executive producer of The Sympathizer. “Since it is tucked away from a main road and totally unexpected, it takes your breath away when you finally come upon it.”

The urban landscape can be just as varied. “Large city settings like Bangkok and Phuket are incredibly different,” Downey adds. “Bangkok is an expansive, nonstop metropolitan area and Phuket is more of a bustling, beachside city.”

Downey notes the country’s great variety of time periods represented in local infrastructure and architecture, which enabled their production to find everything they required, including a French colonial estate, a spot that doubled for a riverbank in Laos and a stand-in for an airport tarmac in Saigon.

Thailand’s relatively small size means that it is possible to shoot in a city and then move to a rural location the next day. When combined with the country’s famous penchant for hospitality, this can make shooting run even smoother. Hotels abound, the food is amazing, and shooting in many locations is possible.

“I think it is actually easier to film in more remote areas, perhaps even easier than filming in busier places like Bangkok,” says Yukol. “It can seem harder to be in remote locations, but just work with the Thailand Film Office and local coordinators.”

As with its varied infrastructure, Thailand’s variety of landscapes and settings allows for significant cost savings. “We were able to use settings in Thailand to double for locations in India, Bangladesh, Australia and Hawaii,” says Simon.

But don’t film in Thailand just to save money. Go because of the breathtaking scenery, the varied landscape, the famous hospitality, and above all else, the smiles.

“We want Thailand to be producers’ first choice,” says Morakul. ¢

A PRO’S CHECKLIST

Producer Nicholas Simon has been living and working in Thailand since the mid-’90s, and formed his Bangkok-based production company Indochina Productions in 2010. Simon has amassed a breadth of experience in producing series and feature films in and around Thailand— so much so that The Hollywood Reporter pegged him “Hollywood’s man in Southeast Asia.”

Here Simon shares his top tips for a producer who is considering Thailand, and how to set up production in the most efficient way.

RESEARCH STAGE

“The first people to reach out to are production and location crew who have recently filmed in the country. Also, multiple perspectives from various departments are best.

“Then identify production service companies that have done projects that you admire and/or are similar to your own production. Reach out to multiple options and speak with the ones best suited to you and your production.”

Another argument for Thailand: “Don’t forget the world-class hotels and restaurants!”

DATING STAGE

“Request a paper scout to see what options Thailand has for your production. You might be surprised and be able to move additional location and studio work there. Once you have identified a partner and know the basic options, commission a project-specific scout and possibly a budget.

“The Thailand Film Office is available to assist you at any stage of your production. Though they do not recommend particular service partners, they can familiarize you with the permitting process and film incentives. Your local service partner will need to work with TFO for all permitting and related processes.”

SETTING UP FOR SUCCESSFUL PRODUCTION

• Consider local sourcing for crew and equipment.

• Look into the film incentives and foreign actor tax exemption.

• Look at studio builds: “The quality of the art department in Thailand is world-class, and there are a growing number of world-class studios.”

• Look into how Thailand can stand in for your other Southeast Asian locations and sets: “We doubled for India, Bangladesh and Australia on Extraction and for Hawaii on Finding Ohana.”

• Look into local partnerships: “The Thailand Film Office and Tourism Authority of Thailand have assisted some productions with additional soft-money grants and in-kind partnerships. Thai-based companies have also done in-kind and product placement partnerships in the past.”

IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF GIANTS

HEATHERS FOREVER

Producer Denise Di Novi on the film that launched her career.

Written By Lisa Y. Garibay

Denise Di Novi’s first full producing credit came in collaboration with a first-time director (Michael Lehmann) and first-time screenwriter (Dan Waters). The 1988 film Heathers blew up expectations of what a teen flick should be, leaving a wake of rabid adolescent fans and shocked—if not flatout disgusted—adults. While not initially a box office or critical success, Heathers has since cemented its legacy as a pop culture milestone, cherished for its violent yet hilarious take on just how damn hard it is to be a teenager.

“Aside from John Hughes, teen movies were kind of a wasteland,” says Di Novi. “It felt like we were doing something important, things that define my career in a lot of instances. It was a writer with a very unique voice and a director with a very unique style.”

The script was so outrageous that casting became difficult. Heather Graham’s parents refused to let their daughter participate despite her fantastic read for the part of one of the titular Heathers, a trio of uber popular teens terrorizing their high school who meet their match with the arrival of a cold-blooded killer played by Christian Slater. Winona Ryder’s agent got on her knees and begged the 15-year-old not to take the lead part of Veronica, convinced it would ruin her career. It didn’t.

The studio (New World Pictures) was going bankrupt as the film hit theaters, which meant paltry P&A.

“It was a nightmare,” Di Novi told Entertainment Weekly in 2014. “I paid for the ad in the LA Times myself for the second week. It was $1,800, which to me was like $18,000.”

But the combination of a baby writer (who wrote the script hoping Stanley Kubrick would direct it) and a baby director shepherded by a baby producer brought it all together.

“Not a week goes by where somebody doesn’t say, ‘That’s my favorite movie,’ or, ‘That movie changed my life,’ or ‘That movie saved me,’” says Di Novi.

After garnering credits on films like David Cronenberg’s Scanners and Videodrome, Di Novi was made an offer by New World Pictures studio head Robert Rehme. “He said, ‘You know all these young filmmakers and cool people in the business. I’m going to give you a little producing deal.’ And I thought, ‘Why not?’”

The first script that came her way was Heathers

Heathers opened another door of opportunity for Di Novi. “It led me to Tim Burton, who had the courage to partner with me, someone who had little experience. We had a long and fruitful partnership.” The dark humor of Heathers was a natural segue into Burton classics like Edward Scissorhands, Batman Returns and Ed Wood

Most recently, Di Novi produced her first-ever limited series, The Veil on FX. Her description of it calls to mind the unconventionality in Heathers: “It’s about two women who you think should be trying to kill each other but connect to their humanity and understand each other as women in ways that you would never anticipate.”

“Somebody said to me a few years ago, ‘All the projects you’ve produced are about people who feel like outsiders trying to find their way in the world.’ That’s one of the most powerful things art can do. It makes people feel like they’re not the only one.” ¢

Shannen Doherty, Lisanne Falk, Kim Walker and Winona Ryder on the set of Heathers