Clare Elwell and Petra Schwille exchange views on female stereotypes in science

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Clare Elwell and Petra Schwille exchange views on breaking female stereotypes in science

Swapping notes on how to thrive as topranking female physicists in a male-dominated environment, Petra Schwille and Clare Elwell ¿QG FRPPRQ FDXVH 7KHLU H[SHULHQFHV FURVV FXOWXUDO DQG VFLHQWL¿F GLYLGHV 3HWUD LV EDVHG LQ Munich, Germany, and works on fundamental processes in cells. London-based Clare is more applications-focussed, developing instruments that help doctors solve medical problems. They discuss why so few women occupy the top jobs LQWKHSK\VLFDOVFLHQFHV³:HQHHGWRHQFRXUDJH women by saying: you’re as good as everyone HOVH MXVWJRRXW WKHUHDQGGRLW´&ODUHDI¿UPV Both women have developed their own strategies to defy the trend.

Gender Stereotypes

Petra describes herself as naturally quite shy. At school, however, she clocked a male friend who was always dominant and outspoken largely to his EHQH¿W³,WPDNHVDORWRIVHQVHWREHOLNHWKDW´ VKHUHPDUNV³VR,FRSLHGKLP,WZRUNHGVRZHOO I never stopped. You have to be a bit on the cool side, not showing your feelings too much.”

:KHQ &ODUH ¿QGV KHUVHOI FKDLULQJ D PHHWLQJ RI VROHO\PHQVKH¿QGVLWEHVWWREHYHU\FOHDUDQG SUDJPDWLF ³<RX KDYH WR EH IRFXVVHG RQ ZKDW you’re doing. And there might be points where Clare Elwell

you feel a bit fragile, but you know you’ve got to get on with it.”

Despite 21st century expectations, dated female stereotypes are not yet a thing of the past. When Clare was asked to be on an expert panel, she UHFDOOV ³, ZDONHG LQWR WKH URRP MXVW EHIRUH WKH session started and this chap came up to me, gave me a pile of papers and said to me ‘oh excellent, we’ve been waiting for the photocopying to be done’. It became evident over the course of the day ZKDWP\UROHZDVDQGWREHIDLUKHZDVPRUWL¿HG but I mean, what a desperately awful assumption to make.”

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You’re as good as everyone else, just go out there and do it

Petra Schwille

Taking Charge

Both scientists head large research groups with a lot of management responsibility. Petra’s group has just moved to the Max Planck Institute of Biochemistry near Munich. Clare’s is based at 8QLYHUVLW\&ROOHJH/RQGRQ³,W IHHOVOLNH\RXDUH running a small company. You manage large budgets, make grant applications and undertake a lot of supervision and training,” remarks Clare. Both women enthuse about their work, describing their jobs as the best in the world.

For Clare, the variety of challenges fuels her interest. Each week different collaborators approach her with new problems. A major strand of her research is developing systems to investigate brain injury and development. This has led her to investigate cognitive function, for example in autism. Recently she has been discussing the possibility of performing brain imaging on DVWURQDXWV LQ VSDFH ³6RPHWKLQJ , FRXOG QHYHU have imagined!” she laughs.

Petra’s team aims to understand living systems on a minute scale – down to the movements of individual molecules. They have developed special microscopes that use single molecule optics to watch proteins moving inside cells and through PHPEUDQHV ³$W WKH PRPHQW ZH DUH WU\LQJ WR bring biological phenomena back to their basic principles: it’s very rewarding, and we’re making headway,” she says. Her ultimate aim is to understand the transition between the non-living and the living world, and identify the minimal form RIOLIH³,W¶VVRPHWKLQJ,¶PGHDUO\LQWHUHVWHGLQEXW I’m not sure whether we’ll ever be able to solve this question.”

Unexpected Beginnings

Petra discovered her passion for basic research in IDOWHULQJVWHSV8SXQWLOKHU3K'VKH¶GQR¿UPLGHD of what she might do. Was this open-mindedness DERXWKHUOLIHGXHWRKHUJHQGHU"³,FRQVLGHUHGLW

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There’s a huge tide to turn but we need to keep going

a complete failure to be a woman,” she admits. ³7KDWZDVWKHXQGHUO\LQJWKHPHRIP\FKLOGKRRG´ Brought up with the expectation that girls stay at home and have children, as an only child with obvious academic ability, her father – an industrial FKHPLVW±SUHVVHGKHU WR VXFFHHG³,ZDV UDLVHG as if I were a boy. I had no family role model to support the belief that a woman was good for something, and had no idea what would become of me.”

Freshly graduated, she was shown around a lab by Nobel laureate Manfred Eigen at the Max Planck Institute for Biophysical Chemistry in Göttingen, Germany. During this visit she suddenly realised KHU YRFDWLRQ ³,W ZDV D ZHOOHTXLSSHG ODE ZLWK lasers and microscopes. It was so beautiful, I really wanted to be there. From then on I wanted to be a scientist.” This desire led to a PhD with Eigen as her supervisor.

Clare found her direction in science earlier on. Aged seventeen she attended a residential summer school with a science and engineering focus. At that point her mind was set on doing

³, VSHQW D ORW RI P\ 3K' FOHDQLQJ microscope objectives for single molecule experiments to make sure they were absolutely free of pollutants.”

Petra Schwille

medicine. A talk on medical physics drew her DWWHQWLRQ ³,W ZDV D UHDO WXUQLQJ SRLQW«, HQMR\HG chemistry and biology, and loved maths and physics, EXWZDQWHGWRGRVRPHWKLQJPHGLFDO´7KH¿UVWLQ her family to attend university; they watched her FDUHHUSURJUHVVLRQZLWKDPD]HPHQW³,W¶VDOOEHHQ a bit weird for them! There’s no academic pedigree in our family.”

Although there was no role model for academic success in Clare’s immediate family, she acknowledges how much they shaped her character: ³0\PRWKHUDOZD\VHQFRXUDJHGPHWREHFRQ¿GHQW HVWDEOLVKDFDUHHUDQGEH¿QDQFLDOO\LQGHSHQGHQW´ Having two older brothers also meant she was at KRPHLQDPDOHGRPLQDWHGHQYLURQPHQW³:KHQ, found myself at university as one of just ten women in the year group of 100 students, it didn’t bother me.”

For most of her career she has worked almost exclusively with men, without a female mentor, boss or role model. Petra likewise admits there are IHZZRPHQLQKHUUHVHDUFK¿HOGEXWKDVQHYHUIHOW uncomfortable. She has actively avoided looking for role models. Growing up in southwest Germany in the 1970s, school subjects were all taught in D ZD\ WKDW DYRLGHG LGROLVLQJ KLVWRULFDO ¿JXUHV ³+HURHVDUHSUREOHPDWLFLQ*HUPDQ\´VKHUHPDUNV ³SHUVRQDOLWLHV GRQ¶W SOD\ D ELJ UROH LQ RXU VFKRRO

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Success should be based on talent and hard work, not looks and wanting it enough

system.” Instead, she admires character traits, such as humility and putting the needs of others before your own.

Changing Perspectives

Having children marked a turning point in both scientists’ attitudes to the lack of women in the SK\VLFDOVFLHQFHV³%HIRUH,KDGNLGV,GLGQ¶WFDUH at all, I never felt hindered by my sex,” says 3HWUD³,QHYHU WKRXJKWLWZRXOGEHLPSRUWDQW WR HQFRXUDJHZRPHQEHFDXVH,ZDVGRLQJ¿QHEXW since I had kids – and all three of them are girls ±, IHHOGLIIHUHQWO\´6KHDVVHUWV³6XFFHVVVKRXOG be based on talent and hard work, not looks and wanting it enough.”

Clare similarly admits concern about her daughter approaching the ‘decision-making years’, not least ZLWK WKHLQÀXHQFH RI VRFLDOPHGLD ³6FLHQFHLV D really good contributor to society, but gets lost amid celebrity nonsense most of the time.” She is reluctant to be seen as a role model but happy to have a successful career as a medical physicist SDUWWLPH ³, ZDV WROG WKDW , ZRXOG QHYHU PDNH SURIHVVRU LI , ZRUNHG SDUWWLPH´ VKH UHFDOOV ³,I I can demonstrate it’s possible for others, that’d be a positive outcome. Good childcare and a supportive family have been important – it’s a constant balancing act.” She admits it’s unusual to manage a part-time career as a professor in the UK.

In Petra’s view, there’s little society need do to FUHDWH PRUH RSSRUWXQLWLHV IRU ZRPHQ ³:RPHQ WKHPVHOYHV QHHG WR ZDQW WKH KLJKÀ\LQJ MREV´ She wonders if it’s down to biology post-childbirth: ³VRPHWKLQJWKDWGRHVQ¶WPDNHXVZDQWWR¿JKWRXW there.” Clare feels there’s a long way to gender HTXDOLW\ LQ WKH IXWXUH ³7KHUH¶V D KXJH WLGH WR turn. It’s depressing sometimes but we need to keep demonstrating that women have choices.” Determined to help change the status quo, she dedicates time to speaking at summer schools, or to the media, to explain why a career in science LVVRUHZDUGLQJ³:KHQ\RX¶UH\RXQJ\RXKDYHQR idea – like Petra not knowing what the day-to-day work of a scientist was, even though her father was a chemist. These things are so important.”

³6ZLPPLQJJLYHVPHVSDFHDQGWLPHWRWKLQNDERXWP\ science, and I often end up solving problems in the water.”

Clare Elwell