Survey, See & Comprehend

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Susan Gathercole and Sally Macintyre discuss their journeys to the top of the academic ladder

³$OOWKHZRUN,¶YHGRQHKDVEHHQDLPHGDWPDNLQJ a difference, improving the world and helping SHRSOH´ 1RW HYHU\RQH FDQ UHÀHFW VR SRVLWLYHO\ on their career as social scientist Sally Macintyre. Based at the University of Glasgow, she is director of the MRC Social and Public Health Sciences Unit and has published widely on how health is affected by inequality.

Susan Gathercole is director of another MRC research centre: the Cambridge-based Cognition and Brain Sciences Unit. As a psychologist her work involves memory and its disorders, insights from which she shares through a range of forums, from head teacher conferences to dyslexia selfKHOS JURXSV ³,¶P IRUWXQDWH WR KDYH KDG WKDW experience. It’s never felt like a job. What more can you hope for from a working life?”

Both are directors of MRC units, but they’ve met only once before. Together they chat about how they got to where they are now, and share views on ensuring gender equality.

Serendipitous Starts

Sally had an unconventional start in life in a remote Scottish boarding school for boys where her father worked as chaplain. She was educated at home until she joined a ballet school aged Susan Gathercole

WHQ RQO\ WR EH WKURZQ RXW DJHG  ³IRU IDLOLQJ WR grow.” A stint at technical college saw her aim for stage management. Fatefully forced to take General Studies, she was hooked after a term of anthropology. Margaret Mead’s work on male and IHPDOHUROHVSDUWLFXODUO\DSSHDOHG³,WZDVFRPSOHWH serendipity. I had no plans to be a social scientist.”

Five out of six universities rejected her application WRVWXG\VRFLDOVFLHQFH³,JRWDFFHSWHGWRDIHPDOH only college at Durham University. The principal specialised in ‘taking on a few wacky outsiders each year’.” The experience she found both HPSRZHULQJDQGOLEHUDWLQJ³$OWKRXJKLW¶VSUREDEO\ not fashionable to say that,” she laughs. The social

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When you make new discoveries, it’s absolutely fantastic

science lecturers were men, but college tutors all ZRPHQJLYLQJKHUWKHPHVVDJHRI³GRZKDW\RX have the ability to do.”

Susan grew up in the north west of England as the eldest of four. Her family moved every couple of years with her father’s job as a banker. She attended half a dozen primary schools and three secondary schools and had little interest in higher education. One day, however, a teacher delivered a presentation on Sigmund Freud³,WZDVPRUH interesting than anything else I’d heard before.”

³7KH GLVFRYHU\ WKDW \RX FRXOG FKDUDFWHULVH DQG understand human behaviour in ways that are relatively lawful was fascinating. It was the most fortunate accident,” she remarks. After reading The Psychology of Communication by Miller she decided last minute to apply for a degree. At York University she discovered her love for cognitive psychology.

Donald Broadbent, who revolutionised international psychology in the 1950s, was a JUHDW LQÀXHQFH GXULQJ KHU ¿UVW SRVWGRF XQGHU KLV SDWURQDJH ³+H FRQVXPHG WKLQNLQJ LGHDV and practice. To be gathered into that vortex of his interest and engagement was fabulous.” His applied take on psychology, such as the effects of adverse environmental conditions (like living Sally Macintyre

under electricity pylons) on people’s cognitive abilities, made a lasting impression on Susan, as did his views on the duty researchers have to better society.

Gender Divides

Susan notes a gender disparity in psychology further up the ladder, except in clinical psychology. Sally doesn’t see it in sociology, but feels the social sciences are undervalued by researchers in natural sciences or medicine, where there’s more of an ‘alpha-male thing’ going on. She asserts, ³2XU ZRUN LV HYLGHQFHEDVHG DQG ZH UREXVWO\ WHVW K\SRWKHVHV (YHQ WKRXJK ZH RI¿FLDOO\ KDYH

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Somehow we are still seen as ‘soft and fluffy’. That annoys me

the same status, somehow we are still seen as µVRIWDQGÀXII\¶7KDWDQQR\VPH´7RZKLFK6XVDQ DJUHHV³WKHUHLVDIHHOLQJWKDW\RX¶UHOHVVFHQWUDO within the MRC community and there may be less currency to your views.”

Sally admits to accepting her honours awards – OBE, CBE and DBE – to improve the respectability RI KHU UHVHDUFK ¿HOG 2Q ¿UVW KHDULQJ DERXW KHU damehood, she immediately assumed it was a PLVWDNH³,KDYHWKLVµOLWWOHROGPH¶UHDFWLRQDOOWKH time, thinking ‘this is bizarre!’ I’ve not changed the world.” As Dame Sally Macintyre, she notes the number of meetings where place cards at the dining table acknowledge knights as ‘sir’ ZKLOHVKHUHPDLQHGµSURIHVVRU¶³,VWDUWHGWRWKLQN it was quite a sexist thing, so I mentioned it at one dinner.” The organisers had presumed she ZRXOGQ¶W ZDQW WR XVH WKH WLWOH ³, GRQ¶W QRUPDOO\ use the title at all, but if others, especially men, do then I’m jolly well going to!”

Both scientists were appointed director at each of their research units, though it took time before they felt comfortable in what had previously been a male role. Sally became director aged 33 and LVQRZWKHORQJHVWVHUYLQJ05&GLUHFWRU³,KDGD terrible time for about ten years. As an internal appointment, I was suddenly promoted above my colleagues, a lot of whom were male.” She had only applied for the post after the shortlisting committee invited her, and even then didn’t think she had a chance.

Similarly, Susan recalls she only applied for her post after other women prompted her. In 2009 while on a subcommittee reviewing the unit in her capacity as an academic at York University, they discovered there were no women in any of the XQLW¶V WRS WKUHH VDODU\ EDQGV ³7KHUHZDV TXLWH D fuss,” she recalls. One of the outcomes was that some younger, mostly female members of staff selforganised to form an equality committee. Invited WRVSHDNDWWKHLUODXQFKVKHFRPPHQWV³,WZDVD fabulous chance to talk about how you get treated as a woman in science.” The directorship came up DQGFRPPLWWHHPHPEHUVXUJHGKHUWRDSSO\³,ZDV amazed to be appointed.”

Sally believes that self-censorship is a continuing subtle – rather than structural – barrier for women

³,DPFRQVFLRXVRIWKHIDFWWKDW if I leave work at lunchtime with my gym kit then I’m giving permission to others to do the same.”

Sally Macintyre

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You can be a successful woman without being an alpha-female

LQVFLHQFH³7KHROGMRNHWKDWDPDQZLOODSSO\IRU a job with only two out of ten essential criteria, but a woman with nine and a half will not, rings true. Women need the encouragement and they need to be put forward by others.” Susan agrees WKDWSURPRWLQJZRPHQLV³LQFUHGLEO\LPSRUWDQW´

Maintaining Balance

$VD IXOOWLPHZRUNLQJPRWKHUZLWK¿YHFKLOGUHQ Susan leaves meetings early to collect the children, takes phone calls from school, and takes time off work when they are unwell; highlighting the importance of maintaining a healthy workOLIHEDODQFH³'RLQJ WKDWDQGEHLQJVHHQ WRGRLW is incredibly important. I’m a single parent and have always shouldered the burden of childcare. I rarely do more than an eight-hour day, and I work D¿YHGD\ZHHN´+HUSROLF\RINHHSLQJPHHWLQJV short is popular with colleagues too. Likewise, Sally takes pains to demonstrate that she takes a proper lunch break, doesn’t work late, DQG HQMR\V ORQJ KROLGD\V ³, DP FRQVFLRXV WKDW leaving the unit at lunchtime with my gym kit, I’m giving permission to others to do the same. A male unit director once told me it was impossible to go away for more than a week at a time. If I want to go away somewhere interesting I go for six weeks.”

As a manager, she tries to listen to people and take WKHLUYLHZVLQWRDFFRXQW³<RXFDQEHDVXFFHVVIXO woman without being an alpha-female.” Susan, as a senior leader in a creative environment, has learnt to put mechanisms in place for decisionPDNLQJWRUHÀHFWWKHEHVWRISHRSOH³7KLVPDNHV equality a natural outcome. If innovation and productivity are what it’s all about, then diversity and equality make huge sense. It’s not just social engineering. You just end up so much stronger.”