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Contributors

Adrian Sykes is a widely-respected UK music industry veteran. He is also a successful entrepreneur and manager, having founded Decisive Management – which steered Emeli Sandé to the peak of her success. In this issue he speaks to another legendary British exec, this one working across the pond, David Miller.

Alex Robbins is an illustrator whose work has previously appeared on the likes of the New Yorker, Time Out, Wired, TIME and i-D. Oh, and Music Business UK. He has once again created our cover image based on a quote from our lead feature. This time, those words come from J. Erving, the founder of Human Re Sources, a company central to the rise of Raye.

Eamonn Forde has been writing about all areas of the music business since 2001. He regularly writes for IQ, The Guardian, The Big Issue, Q, Music Business Worldwide and The Quietus among other titles. In this issue he talks about perhaps his favourite group of all time, U2. His latest book, Leaving the Building: The Lucrative Afterlife of Musical Estates, is out now.

Mark Douglas is Chief Information Officer at PPL. In his current role, Mark is responsible for all of the technology systems and data that underpin PPL’s operations. To achieve this, Mark leads PPL’s Information Technology and its Data & Insight functions. In this issue, he offers his take on one of the most talked-about issues in the modern business.

Mark Sutherland has been covering the music business for over 25 years. He is a Variety columnist and writes for publications including Rolling Stone and Kerrang!. He was previously Editor of UK trade title Music Week. In this issue of MBUK, Mark sits down with Jimmy Napes, plus Jeremy Lascelles and Becky Hill’s manager, Alex Martin.

Rhian Jones is a respected freelance journalist who, in addition to writing regularly for MBUK and Hits Daily Double, is a Contributing Editor for Music Business Worldwide. In this issue, she interviews Human Re Sources’ J Erving and the executive team at ATC and, in her regular column, discusses the industry’s attitudes towards the demands of parenting.

MARK DOUGLAS

EAMONN FORDE

RHIAN JONES

MARK SUTHERLAND

ALEX ROBBINS

ADRIAN SYKES

FIRST BRAND NEW UK ARTIST TO ENTER THE SPOTIFY GLOBAL CHART IN THE LAST YEAR

FASTEST GROWING UK RECORD

GLOBALLY FROM A BRAND NEW ARTIST OVER 1.1M STREAMS PER DAY

12M STREAMS PER WEEK

FOUNDER’S LETTER

In the entertainment industry, the cliché is: never work with children or animals. But in the music biz, there’s sometimes a third pillar to this warning of disorder and unpredictability: never work with an artist managed by a member of their immediate family.

You can see why this aphorism exists: If someone shares a bloodline with an artist and also acts as their business rep, your commercial partnership with said duo brings with it innate complexity. It’s one thing dealing with an act throwing a wobbly about their manager. It’s another thing when that manager flings back a damning anecdote about that time their brother/sister/daughter/son smacked an icecream scoop over the head of the household cat. And accompanies it with those chilling words: “This is so typical of you.”

You can also see why there are more than a few famous examples of superstars – having reached a certain plane of success and fame –cutting professional ties with people in their genealogical tree. It’s the story, to cite a carefullyborrowed phrase, of artists making a difficult decision that’s best for their career... and for Me, Myself and I.

But right now, in the British music industry, this whole idea is being chopped to bits. Because family members are professionally shadowing the careers of a string of the UK’s most successful talent in 2023 – and doing a stellar job.

Let’s start with Dua Lipa. When the Warner Records-signed act left Tap Management this time last year, we learnt that her new representative would be her father, Dugi (Dukagjin) Lipa. On the surface, this seemed like an obvious ‘interim coach’ situation; Dugi would step in to protect his daughter’s interests until a higher-profile artist manager was found. But this view, according to those close to the situation, was short-sighted. Dugi is in fact a veteran of the music biz, having acted as CEO of

London-based Mercy & Wild PR, as well as an Exec Director of Republika Communications in his native Kosovo. Dugi’s dealings since becoming Dua’s manager so far have, according to my sources, been canny, long-sighted, and delivered with an impressive understanding of the modern streaming and touring landscape.

Exhibit B of this trend: RAYE, who is understood to have parted ways with her longterm management company, Sequoia, and has – like Dua Lipa – shifted talent representation duties to her father. Having negotiated an elegant exit from Polydor before taking over the global charts as an indie act, RAYE was, from my seat at least, the most talked-about British artist in Los Angeles by US power-players during Grammy Week. Evidently, her dad is helping his daughter make all the right decisions.

The second most talked-about British artist during Grammy Week? Fred Again. The on-therise Atlantic-signed act is managed by his brother, Alex Gibson, who has his own cast-iron music biz pedigree (and is part of Fred’s publishing team at Promised Land Music). Alex, I’m told, is one of the primary masterminds behind Fred Again’s new bromance with Skrillex... marrying the aching cool and mystery of the former with the sprawling fanbase and irresistible energy of the latter. As one powerful Stateside impresario put it to me recently: “Alex is smarter than all of the other UK managers.”

In February, Fred Again and Skrillex (with Four Tet) played – i.e. laid waste to – a sold-out Madison Square Garden. Agent Tom Schroeder said on socials afterwards: “NYC was owned for a week. And I swear, the industry still hasn’t quite clocked what is happening…”

In terms of the cross-generational scale of ‘Skrill-Again’, he’s probably right. But a few of us have clocked something else: Some of music’s most impressive talent management today isn’t just highly strategic. It’s highly genetic, too.

Contact: Enquiries@musicbizworldwide.com

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Tim Ingham

“Family members are professionally shadowing a string of the UK’s most successful talent in 2023.”

ARTISTS WE’VE WORKED WITH HAVE ALL MOVED CULTURE IN A VERY REAL WAY’

Modern music business legend and Human Re Sources founder J. Erving tells MBUK about the unstoppable (despite once seeming non-startable) rise of RAYE, his philosophy on artist development and the ongoing friction/coalition between independents and majors…

Late last year, RAYE scored a colossal comeback story by hitting No.1 on the UK singles chart with Escapism feat. 070 Shake. It was her first chart-topper, eight years into a career that’s seen her hit the Top 40 nine times.

The story (and it is quite a story) continued at the start of 2023 with her debut album, My 21st Century Blues, reaching No. 2 (Shania Twain’s Queen Of Me kept it off the summit by an extremely tight margin) – and receiving pretty much universal critical acclaim.

The album was a source of contention with her former record label, Polydor, from which RAYE split in 2021 after she claimed on social media they had refused to let her release one (despite being signed to a four-album deal since 2014).

In later conversations, she also said she felt confined at the label, pushed into releasing one genre of music (dance) when her ambitions were more eclectic.

Since then, RAYE has taken complete control of her career and is releasing music independently via distributor Human Re Sources. As the head of the company, J. Erving, tells MBUK, she’s her own A&R and takes the lead on every aspect of her output.

He says: “She’s directing her videos, she’s editing her videos, she’s overseeing all of the creative associated with her live shows. And for us, it wasn’t, ‘Go and give us a song that sounds like this’; we wanted a song that sounds like a RAYE song. The biggest and most important thing we could do is get out of her way and support her.”

RAYE is the latest in a string of independent acts to have broken through the noise with the help of Human Re Sources. She follows in the footsteps of US R&B singers and songwriters Brent Faiyaz and Pink Sweats, and production duo, Sonder.

New signings under development at the company include R&B artist and New York native Kelz, British rapper Lancey Foux, and Lekan from Ohio — who has “one of the most amazing voices I’ve ever heard,” says Erving.

Based in the US, Human Re Sources was founded by Erving in 2017. He brings a storied history to the table, having managed acts including Floetry, Rodney Jerkins, Nelly and Kelis alongside

Troy Carter. He founded his own company after Carter shut down his management firm, Atom Factory, and Erving had to figure out what to do next.

A few years later, Carter and Erving were back in business when Carter formed his own artist services company, Q&A, which merged with HRS.

In 2020, Sony Music acquired Human Re Sources and it became part of The Orchard. At the same time, Erving was offered a dual senior role as EVP, Creative Development for Sony and EVP at The Orchard. Today, Human Re Sources has 12 team members, with feet on the ground in various markets thanks to The Orchard. Here, we chat to Erving about RAYE, his ambitions, the biggest lessons learned across his career and much more besides.

Escapism was a slow burner, having been released three months prior to it reaching No.1 in the UK. What did it take to get it to the top of the chart and achieve the success it’s had in other markets? Certainly a big part of it was the foundation that RAYE had built over the years, her generally having real currency in the marketplace and people rooting for her.

We got a spark on TikTok, that was super helpful. But I think it all boils down to the music, this amazing songwriter and the body of work that she’s created. For us, it was just about figuring out how to be the best distribution partner we can be and support her vision and what she set out to do initially.

RAYE is the captain of the ship. I can’t take credit for being in the studio with her and making these songs, she makes the records herself. Getting out of her way was the best thing that we could possibly do.

I read that sped-up remixed versions of the track helped get it to No.1…

I’d be lying if I said it was a strategy. Discovery is happening in all sorts of ways with young folks and I think it’s about taking swings and being in a position to put great music out there.

The cool thing about this song as it pertains to TikTok is it was the lyric that cut through with young people. There wasn’t some

‘THE

“The biggest and most important thing we could do for RAYE is get out of her way and support her.”

gimmicky dance, it was people connecting with RAYE’s lyrics that took it there.

In 2021, RAYE had a public split with her former label Polydor, who she said hadn’t allowed her to release her debut album, despite being in a four-album deal for seven years. Do you have an opinion on that situation?

The only opinion I have is how I work. I can’t emphasise enough that the biggest and most important thing we could do is get out of her way and support her. She’s really clear about her vision, she’s really clear about what she wants to accomplish. She’s super crystal clear about the type of music that she wants to make.

I can’t speak to how other folks work. For us, we just wanted to support her and her vision because the music that she had was outstanding. Her work ethic is second to none. She puts the hours in, she spends time with people, she spends time on her craft.

She’s directing her videos, she’s editing her videos, she’s overseeing all of the creative associated with her live shows. She’s in it. And for us, it wasn’t, ‘Go and give us a song that sounds like this,’ we wanted a song that sounds like a RAYE song.

What are your ambitions in the UK market specifically?

We want to be recognised as a global company and a company that can break artists from all around the world. When Lancey Foux was first presented to me, I was like an old music industry

guy, ‘They’ve been trying to crack this code for UK rap working globally forever and it hasn’t happened.’

I shut it down and that went against everything that I say I stand for. I hadn’t listened to the music, I hadn’t met the artist, I wasn’t supporting the young executives at the company who were passionate about this artist.

So I had to revisit it. And when I met him, when I heard the music, I’m like, ‘This works anywhere. This guy is a superstar, super smart, and the kind of person that I want to be in business with.’ Where he’s from shouldn’t determine whether we want to be in business or not. By having boots on the ground with The Orchard, who were super-helpful in terms of breaking RAYE, we can look at ourselves as having a global footprint and being able to sign and break artists from all around the world.

Is one of your goals to upstream artists into the wider Sony Music ecosystem?

We want to meet artists where they want to be met. RAYE is very adamantly independent. We’re not a record label for her — we’re her distribution partner and we want to continue to be that for her. RAYE is the record label and she’s an independent artist.

You’ve got an extensive history in music spanning management and A&R. What are the biggest lessons from your history that inform the work you do today?

Brent Faiyaz Lekan

As a manager, you have to wear a lot of hats and it’s not a nine-tofive job. I try to build a DNA inside our company where we don’t close our computers at six o’clock. We’re in it with our partners, we’re shoulder-to-shoulder with them.

I want the folks on my team to be at TV shows, appearances, in the studio, to show up for our partners in a very real way. We are a very small team, so we have to be like a Swiss Army knife, wear a lot of hats and dig in wherever there’s holes or gaps.

We’re also not a volume-based distribution company; we’re only taking on things that we genuinely care about and love.

Human Re Sources was acquired by Sony in 2020 — what impact has that had on what you do?

I was an outside guy for 20 years, so being on the inside, seeing how things work and having the support of The Orchard has been amazing. Being able to service things globally, having radio in-house, and a sales and marketing team, puts us in a position to be able to scale our business.

What are your ambitions for the company generally?

To continue to break superstars and move culture. The artists

we’ve worked with have all moved culture in a very real way. They are probably all a little bit left of centre and we were able to pull them to the middle and have ‘mainstream’ success.

Pink Sweats is a kid from Philly who wears all pink clothes. The first Platinum single we had with him, Honesty, was an acoustic song, very non-traditional and it wasn’t what was happening at radio or like the other records that were streaming heavily at the time. But his voice and the stickiness of what he did cut through.

Brent Faiyaz was about putting one foot in front of the other to create a slow and credible build. It’s not microwave food, it’s soul food, it takes a little bit longer to cook, but ultimately the payoff is big.

We’re not a research company, we work based on our gut and how we feel about artists. We don’t have the benefit of waiting around for analytics — we have to be on stuff early. If we’re waiting on analytics, we’re competing with all of the frontline labels and that’s not the business that we’re in.

How do you see the distribution and label services market evolving in future?

With artists like RAYE leading the charge of independence, I

“We have to be like a Swiss Army knife and dig in wherever there’s holes or gaps.”

Pink Sweats Sonder

think you’re going to see a lot more artists who are keen to stay independent and have a distribution partner that offers services.

I see other distributors having success and how they’re building their businesses out, like Venice and UnitedMasters. It’s working and it speaks to where the space is going. I think it’s going to continue to build and flourish alongside what the folks at the frontline labels are doing.

The major and independent music markets seem closer than ever, given the amount of acquisitions that have happened in recent years. What impact do you see that having on artists and the industry at large?

I think there’s room for everyone. The frontline labels are going to continue to grow and continue to do what they do. There’s no stopping or changing that. I think that’s still a very necessary part of the game that I don’t think is going to diminish in any way.

The independent sector is going to continue to build and, like where our company is at, be able to meet artists where they want to be met. Every artist has very different needs and wants and when you can meet them wherever they want to be met, that puts us in a position to sign, develop and ultimately break more artists.

How would you define A&R in 2023? And has that definition changed in your career?

I think it’s changed for some people. I think the benefit of research has been very helpful for a lot of record companies and for some level of risk mitigation, in terms of signing things that are already working, streaming and selling tickets.

But we’re having to find stuff really early. And when you’re finding stuff early, it’s not necessarily in a Tiffany’s box. You might need to shape it up, put sessions together, bring in collaborators, bring in other producers, other songwriters and do work on the creative as well, like videos, photo shoots and creating content that’s super sticky.

All of those things are wildly important. But then you find artists like RAYE, who is A&Ring herself. She was in a Tiffany’s box, with a bow and everything when we got together. There are different levels to which you’re going to engage with artists and different things that they’re going to need in terms of support from an A&R perspective.

What would you change about the music industry and why?

What we’re trying to change internally is continuing to build more executives of colour and advocating for women in a real way.

Sony and The Orchard walk the walk, with my team being here, the other folks that they’re supporting by bringing in, as well as the women and executives of colour. That’s been really impressive to see and it feels good to be at a company that’s doing it, rather than just talking about it. n

Lancey Foux

‘THE GOOSEBUMPS DON’T LIE’

Multi-Grammy-winning songwriter Jimmy Napes

As the wedding DJ dropped Clean Bandit’s Rather Be, Jimmy Napes couldn’t help but smile.

Just a few years ago, Napes was the harassed guy behind the decks, knowing his choice of records was responsible for getting the happy couple’s family and friends up and dancing, and putting the seal on what could be the best day of their lives. Now, one of the songs he’d written was doing that job, without him having to worry about lugging all his gear back to South London at 4am.

“Once I’d written some songs that got played at weddings, I knew I was on to a good thing,” he grins. “I was at a wedding and I heard Rather Be and it was one of those ‘Practise gratitude, thank God for that!’ moments.”

Napes learned a lot from his stint as a reluctant mobile disco operator – chiefly to “work twice, three times, five times as hard on the songwriting, because I didn’t want to be doing that forever – I fucking hated it to be honest!”

Luckily, Napes has been writing the perfect songs to soundtrack life’s big moments for quite a while now. But if it seemed like he became an overnight success when his 2012/13 lava-hot streak saw Disclosure’s Latch, Naughty Boy’s La La La, Sam Smith’s Lay Me Down and Clean Bandit’s Rather Be all drop in rapid succession, the reality was rather different.

Napes was sure enough of his destiny to inform his parents that, aged 14, he was going to become a professional songwriter (“It was before I’d even done my GCSEs, and they were looking at me like, ‘Just slow down there, partner!’”). But it was over a decade from that chat before he had a true hit, years spent writing music for commercials at Mophonics (most notably a jingle for an Apple iPod Nano ad) and DJ-ing at those weddings and in South London clubs to scrape together a living, while furiously working on his writing in every spare moment.

Everything changed when he met a young singer called Sam Smith. On the very first day they met, they wrote Lay Me Down together (with their mutual friend Elvin Smith, who introduced

talks about his special relationship with Sam Smith, the success of Unholy, not being invited to The BRITs and why it’s important to write crap songs (now and again)…

them). Napes emailed the song to his managers, Jack Street and Sam Evitt of Method Music, and the reaction was instant.

“They called me back within a minute-and-a-half and the song’s four minutes long!” he laughs. “So I knew we had to be doing something right!”

Napes and Smith have been causing reactions like that ever since, as two halves of one of the greatest songwriting partnerships in modern music. Right now, they’re red hot again, with Unholy (feat. Kim Petras) – written in Jamaica over rum cocktails during a lockdown curfew – proving to be both a historic moment (Petras is the first transgender solo artist to score a No.1 single) and the biggest hit of even Smith’s stellar career.

“Having a hit never hurts,” Napes grins. “I’ve always gone by the philosophy that you’re only as good as your last song, because it keeps you on your toes, keeps you hungry and it’s nice to be in demand.”

Last month, Napes and Smith returned to the Grammy Awards for the first time since Smith won four (including Record and Song of the Year for Stay With Me) in 2015 (the duo also won the Oscar for Best Original Song in 2016 for their Bond theme, Writing’s On The Wall). This time, Smith and Petras picked up the Best Pop Duo/Group Performance

Grammy, and Napes confirms he’s now in the middle of another wave of “ridiculous calls” from A-list artists wanting to work with him.

And while he is no devotee of the limelight – he loves being able to do the school run without attracting any undue attention or having to go on the road – he certainly works hard to make sure the world’s top talent keep him on speed dial for whenever they need a co-writer or producer.

That’s why, as he sits in his discreet North London studio, he’s able to chat warmly about Mary J Blige jetting into London to work with him; Alicia Keys flying him out to New York for a session; Taylor Swift calling to ask if he wanted to make a Christmas record (Christmas Tree Farm); or Sting sending him to the corner shop to buy him a cheese-and-pickle sandwich (“that was particularly surreal”) during a session with Disclosure.

That’s why, the morning after the Grammys celebrations, Napes was booked into a studio with an artist he really wanted to work with (“Who books a session the morning after the Grammys? Someone that’s got to fly home to their kids and really wants to make the most of the trip!”).

And that’s why he can enthuse about a packed diary full of sessions with both ‘top secret’ superstars and brand-new artists.

“It’s always nice to be in demand,” he says as he settles down to chat to MBUK in a rare interview. “I’m extraordinarily grateful for every day I get to make music for a living, because I know how hard I worked to get here. I’ll never take it for granted.”

Jimmy Napes talking about songwriting? Right now, there’s no piece we’d rather read…

Did you set out to do something completely different with Unholy?

Sam did. We’d had enough of piano ballads, we’ve written our fair share of those. It was more for us than anything, we just wanted to try a different direction.

It’s become that record you can’t get away from, which is a great thing. Because it’s such a different record, we’d be lying if we said we thought it was going to do what it’s done.

What we knew is that we were pushing boundaries musically, going into areas we hadn’t been to before and that was exciting. So it’s really nice that that’s been rewarded with the success of the song.

Did you realise what a game-changer it would be for everyone?

Yeah. It’s an important one too because it’s at that stage of Sam’s career where they’re on their fourth album – a lot of artists don’t make it to that number, and to have the biggest hit of your career on your fourth album says a lot about your longevity.

How do you feel about the right-wing backlash against the song and the Grammys performance?

If you’re not upsetting somebody, you’re doing something wrong! I like supporting artists on their journey, it’s part of what I love to do – and if you’re not growing, you’re dead, right? Sam and I are very good friends, so I always want to make sure they’re good – and they are, because they’ve never been more themselves.

When you first met Sam, did you instantly know what an amazing creative partnership you’d have?

I didn’t, but I did know Sam had the best voice I’d ever heard. I couldn’t quite believe that voice was real. When we wrote Lay Me Down, I still remember I had full goosebumps up and down my arms. I was playing the piano and it’s one of those feelings you can’t forget, it felt like magic.

The goosebumps don’t lie, I always tell myself – sometimes if the session’s not going well, you’re trying to force things, but you can never do that. You have to let it come to you and the goosebumps are the key indicator when something’s going well.

How often do the goosebumps come?

Not often! I wish I got them more, but that’s how you know, they’re very honest.

Why do you think you and Sam work so well together?

It’s to do with the fact we’re so close. We really trust one another; we can tell each other anything and that helps.

We’ve just built up a partnership and we complement one another. I think we’ll always work together. We can’t shake each other now, we’re stuck!

“We knew we were pushing boundaries musically, going into areas we hadn’t been to before.”

Sam Smith

Photo: Michael Bailey Gates

We’ve always had a relationship where Sam works with lots of different people, and I go off and work with lots of different people. But we both recognise that something special happens when we work together.

Is it very different when you work with someone else?

I have good relationships with most of the artists I work with. We work together multiple times and have built trust – it’s important to do that. You’re telling a lot of your personal life stories in these moments, so I like artists to feel they can trust me, and I can trust them, because it’s in those safe spaces that you get the most magic.

Is that harder to do in the modern world of multiple co-writers?

It is slightly different. But what I’ve worked out is, as long as everyone in the room is cool, it doesn’t change anything. If everyone’s willing to be honest, put their best foot forward and let the best idea win, then it doesn’t matter how many people are in the room. With Unholy, there were six or seven people involved and it worked out great, because everyone’s so great at what they do and lets everyone breathe and contribute ideas.

Are songwriting and producing two very different jobs for you?

They are and yet they’re not. It’s something I still play with because, if you start thinking about the production of the song too early, sometimes it can detract from the quality of the song.

I’m quite old-fashioned with my methods. I love writing songs at the piano and I’ve found, if you really focus on the song and get it to be a 10 out of 10 standalone piece of music, then you can produce it in a number of ways and you’ve got the best possible starting point. So, I like to put on two different hats – I go to songwriter Jimmy and then producer Jimmy.

Most songwriters specialise in either ballads or bangers. You do both. Which do you prefer?

Some songwriters have a lane, but I love that [I do both], it keeps it all exciting. If I was just on the piano all the time, it would be dreary.

But I’ll write a load of songs on the piano and then I’ll work on bangers with whoever it may be, and it freshens the palate. Then you can go back to the other thing and feel really excited rather than being, ‘Oh no, not this again’.

When people ask to work with you, which type of song are they requesting?

I always see what the artist wants to do, I listen to where they’re at in their journey. Sometimes, someone’s just gone through a breakup and the only thing to do is to write a break-up song – that’s just what they have to do, so I have to help them do it.

And maybe it’s a break-up ballad or maybe it’s a break-up banger – that just depends on what stage of the break-up they’re at.

Taylor Swift Clean Bandit

Photo: Anna Patarakina

Do you think that songwriters get enough respect from the industry?

Songwriters definitely aren’t paid enough. If you look at the ratio of what they’re paid compared to other people, it makes pretty poor reading.

I’m always in a mixed position, because I’m so grateful to get to do what I love for a living and I’ve been so lucky, but, if I was starting now and I hadn’t had the success on US radio, it would be a completely different story.

In one way, it’s amazing because, before streaming, it was an even darker time, no one was getting paid anything for anything. But there’s still some work to be done to even out the splits.

Do you have a view on the rights sale boom that has taken place in the past few years?

It’s obviously a hot topic and a lot of my peers have done it. It’s just business at the end of the day, you have to separate the art and the business and, if it suits your life and it’s something you want to do, I completely understand.

It’s giving yourself security long-term, that’s why people are choosing to do it, but it’s also a shame to not feel you could take your time and have those royalties collected over your lifespan. Have I had any offers? I’ll keep that one close to my chest! I haven’t done it yet…

If you could change one thing about today’s music industry, right here and now, what would it be and why?

I’d make sure songwriters were invited to the BRITs. There should be some more love shown to the people that make the music. I wasn’t even invited to the BRITs and I was nominated for Song of the Year – that’s a strange one isn’t it? So I didn’t go. It feels like it’s behind the Grammys in that way.

You once said you’d written 995 crap songs and five good ones. What’s the ratio now?

[Laughs] It’s probably the same! I hope it’s getting slightly better now, but it’s important to always write.

Don’t turn the tap of your creativity off. I wake up every day and just write at the piano by myself. Doing that every single day, there’s bound to be a lot of rubbish that comes out.

So

you still write crap songs?

Of course! It’s my forte!

What do you do with them?

You let them out. You just let them go. Whether it’s a chord, a lyric or a feeling that was manifesting in some of those other songs, that led to the point that [another song] became magic.

It’s all part of the journey. And, if you don’t write the crap songs, then the great ones don’t come. n

Photo: Hollie Fernando

The BRIT Awards 2023

Saturday night’s alright for winning! For the first time ever, the BRIT Awards were held at the weekend. The ceremony returned to the O2 Arena on February 11, bringing with it some stunning performances, a dash of controversy and some very happy winners...

It was a big night for Harry Styles. Sony Music Group Chairman Rob Stringer joined the superstar at his table as Styles took home four awards

Sam Smith delivered a show-stopping performance of Unholy, while Cat Burns brought the confetti as she sang her hit, Go

Domino-signed indie rockers Wet Leg (above) won two awards on the night, taking home Group Of The Year and Best New Artist

BRITs: All the winners

MasterCard Album Of The Year

Harry Styles – Harry’s House

Artist Of The Year

Harry Styles

Group Of The Year

Wet Leg

BRITs Rising Star

FLO

Song Of The Year

Harry Styles – As It Was

Best New Artist

Wet Leg

Producer Of The Year

David Guetta

Songwriter Of The Year

Kid Harpoon

Best Rock/Alternative Act

The 1975

Best Hip-Hop/Grime/Rap Act

Aitch

Best Dance Act

Becky Hill

Best Pop/R&B Act

Harry Styles

International Artist Of The Year

Beyoncé

International Group Of The Year

Fontaines DC

International Song Of The Year

Beyoncé – Break My Soul

Polydor’s Becky Hill (bottom left) won the Best Dance Act prize for the second year in a row, while Fontaines DC picked up a debut BRIT

Lizzo gave one of the best performances of the night with a medley of tracks from her Special album, while Mo Gilligan (below, left) hosted the ceremony for the second time

Harry Styles honoured his co-writers Kid Harpoon and Tyler Johnson, while Island’s FLO (bottom left) picked up the Rising Star award

Stormzy and Lewis Capaldi both played live at the ceremony, while guests included Charli XCX, Fatboy Slim and Sam Ryder

Becky Hill’s manager Alex Martin talks to MBUK about his journey so far with the double BRIT-winning artist, bouncing back after being dropped, their special bond and where they go together from here…

All managers should find themselves a client who looks at them the way Becky Hill looks at Alex Martin.

As Hill picked up her Artist of the Year prize at the 2022 Artist & Manager Awards, she gave Martin, her manager for over 10 years, perhaps the greatest endorsement an artist has ever given the person looking after their career.

“You are a shining example of exactly how to work in this industry, putting your moral compass at the forefront of everything you do, and it’s been inspiring to watch you work so tirelessly at making this fucking thing work,” she enthused.

“You were the first man I wasn’t related to that showed me true trust and loyalty. I’ll never forget that day you said you’d fund me living in London out of your own pocket, because no one else saw your vision for this. I couldn’t have done any of [this] without such an honest, loyal and ambitious person.”

“We got off stage and someone said to her, ‘Jesus, it was like being at you and Alex’s wedding!’” laughs Martin a few months later, as he meets MBUK at Polydor, Hill’s label. “I asked to present that award to her because I really wanted to publicly recognise her achievements. But I didn’t expect the speech that she gave back. She’s an absolute pleasure to work with.”

Hill has made a habit of endorsing her manager on such occasions – she famously got an extremely reluctant Martin up on stage at BRITs 2022 when she won Best Dance Act (“The biggest moment of her career and she chose to share it with her manager – wow, true class,” Martin marvels) and shouted him out again in February when she won that BRIT for the second year in a row.

‘IN THE FIRST MEETING, SHE BASICALLY TOLD THEM TO FUCK OFF AND THAT SHE DIDN’T NEED THEM –BUT THEY CAME BACK FOR A SECOND MEETING’

Alex Martin

But the duo’s path to the top wasn’t always rooted in the glitz and glamour of awards ceremonies; in fact, it’s been one, long, odds-defying slog.

Alex Martin’s music career began as a boy chorister at Westminster Abbey, but, after studying music at Newcastle, he decided more contemporary sounds were where his true passions lay. In the 2000s, he applied for a job at the Marquee Club, then undergoing yet another relaunch in London’s Leicester Square, even travelling back from Greece for his interview.

“I thought it was my big break,” he laughs. “But it was actually an interview for bar staff!”

Nonetheless, he took the job and it proved to be his way in. Soon, he was promoting nights with Charles Baybutt at the Marquee and then all over London under the name Curious Generation, featuring the likes of Ed Sheeran, Tinie Tempah and Jessie J, and launching branding and consultancy divisions.

After realising the business wasn’t quite equipped to step up to the top level, Martin moved on and launched his muchless-imaginatively named management company, AM Music. He had some success with French electronic wonders Caravan Palace and then sought out some more experienced partners, linking up with former Island Records boss Marc Marot, then at SEG. Marot introduced him to Talvin Singh, who Martin started managing, and when Marot moved to the Crown Talent & Media Group, he brought Martin over and introduced him to founder Mark Hargreaves.

AM partnered with Crown in a JV and today Martin praises Hargreaves and Marot for “showing incredible trust” in his vision (Crown and AM remain partners to this day). But, back then, Martin was still looking for “a young talent that could change the chart of my career”. And one day in 2012, he found her. Although, admittedly, so did millions of other people, as Becky Hill’s powerhouse vocals captivated viewers of the first UK series of The Voice (she’s still by far the show’s most successful graduate).

Martin got as far as writing ‘Call Becky Hill’ on his to-do list, but – still short on contacts and music industry knowledge –had no real idea of how to get hold of her. Until Hill – who was being mentored by

years later, we’re still working together. It was a Sliding Doors moment – if I’d gone for a piss five minutes later, she would have been put through to a different person!”

When Hill was eliminated in the semifinals, Martin suggested she didn’t use the show as her calling card, but instead went back to basics. It worked, and after becoming the featured vocalist and co-writer on huge hits such as Wilkinson’s Afterglow and Oliver Heldens’ Gecko (Overdrive), Hill was ready to launch as a solo star.

Crown client Jessie J – just happened to ring the Crown office and a receptionist asked a passing Alex Martin how she should direct the call.

“I couldn’t believe my luck,” he laughs. “I said, put her through to me and, 11

Except her single flopped and she was swiftly dropped by Parlophone. Martin and Hill rebuilt her career as an independent artist until she was ready to re-enter the major label system at Polydor in 2017. Since then, Hill has been unstoppable, becoming the third most-

“The biggest moment of her career and she chose to share it with her manager, true class.”

Becky Hill

streamed UK female artist in the world (behind only Adele and Dua Lipa), scoring smash singles, a hit album (Only Honest On The Weekend) and an absolute streaming monster of a compilation (Get To Know); and playing live everywhere from Reading Festival to the final of the women’s Euro 2022 tournament.

Martin – a manager with an unusual openness about the mistakes he’s made along the way – says AM Music will always remain a boutique company, but it’s also been growing from its one-manband origins, with more staff and big plans for clients such as fast-rising singersongwriters Alex Hosking and Beren Olivia. But, ultimately, Becky is the Hill that Alex Martin is prepared to die on.

“As I grew a little bit more astute in my older years, I began to understand that spread betting wasn’t going to be a suitable way forward,” he says. “I decided to really concentrate on finding exceptional talent I wanted to work with and that wanted to work with me, and then focus in on that.”

Want to know more? Look this way…

How did you help Becky make the leap from having hit songs to being a hit artist?

We just followed our noses. When we were doing a lot of collaborations, they weren’t really the done thing, they were sniffed at. On Afterglow, we deliberately didn’t credit Becky on the record, because we wanted people to hear that voice and go, ‘Who is that?’ Wilkinson’s team, who were fantastic to work with, were very happy to go with it as a Wilkinson record.

I remember hearing it on Radio 1 and the calls coming in – ‘That’s an amazing song, Wilkinson’s fantastic – but who is that vocal?’ Maybe that was a naïve play, but it really paid off – and you would never get that now. You would never not credit someone on a song because you wanted to get that noise around it, but that was OK to do back then.

What went wrong with Parlophone?

We’d had huge success across the summer [of 2014], and we had an amazing song that everyone was a long-standing admirer of, called Losing, that Becky had written with MNEK. We’d released a taster single [Caution To The Wind] and were looking to release Losing as her first proper single.

We released it in November, and I look back at that moment with a bit of sadness from a managerial point of view, because really I should have been stronger and said, ‘That should come out top end of next year, when the ground’s a lot more fertile.’ I’ll be honest, I just didn’t have that experience. So, we went with it in November, it slunk into the chart at No.56 and from that stage on, it was a struggle for whatever reason.

Parlophone had spent a fair amount of money at that stage. I should have had a stronger strategy lined up for my artist, so

a lot about lots of things, thankfully, but I don’t know everything and I’m not an expert in anything. I would never believe my own press to think I am, because the pace of change in the industry happens so quickly. You always have to learn and adapt.

Presumably she was quite reluctant to go back into that major system? Completely. She’d been burned and it was painful. But the aspiration we both had for her career was always to do something great. You can do that with a label of your own, but when you’re a female pop artist, it’s a challenge to run your own label and truly get to the very top in terms of global recognition.

We needed the major label system to help us get there. It was going to take a certain type of personality and label to get us back on board and Polydor was that label.

What convinced you it would be different this time?

I apologise for that to Becky publicly now. It’s not just that of course, there are lots of different elements as to why it didn’t particularly work at that moment, but that would’ve helped. But in a perverse way, I’m glad it turned out like that.

It must have been tough to come back from being dropped? It was really hard to give her that news. It was just before Christmas and I said, ‘They’re not going to be moving forward, but we’ve got some really great music, I’m going nowhere.’ And I’ll never forget what she said to me: ‘I effing well hope not, I never even thought you would! Now you’ve put doubt in my mind…’ [Laughs] I was like, ‘I shouldn’t have said anything!’ So it was Becky, myself and some of my team literally flying by the seat of our pants and just doing it. That’s the music industry: you always have to think on your feet and learn how to do things. I know

In the first meeting, she basically told them to fuck off and that she didn’t need them – but they came back for a second meeting, so that was probably it to a large degree! They really believed in her and recognised she hadn’t been given a fair crack of the whip.

It’s about who’s going to do a great job, but it’s also about trusting people. And having been through the experience, we were in a much better place to drive the ship forward. We never felt we were at the behest of the label, we were true partners.

Becky and I feel comfortable bringing our own strategy and ideas, but also listen to their ideas and strategy and we work together to make it happen. That didn’t happen at the previous label, not because they weren’t receptive particularly, but we never approached it like that.

Again, that’s probably my error. Becky has made a career out of being shrewd and being able to see the right moves, listening to the advice around her and I forever respect that. She’s an incredibly intelligent woman and her ability to see the wood from the trees has enabled us to foster a

“Polydor really believed in her and recognised she hadn’t been given a fair crack of the whip.”

great working relationship and trust, but also to progress her career.

She says you’ve always been honest with her. Have you never even told a little white lie?

Well, it’s about how you communicate certain things, rather than if you communicate them at all. And it’s about timing, when you communicate certain things. But I’ve never kept things from her or lied to her. Complete transparency has always been the absolute hallmark of our relationship.

There’s a lot of hot air in this industry and I’m not interested in that. I prefer telling it how it is and being more blackand-white about things. She likes detail for her own level of comfort and to feel that she knows what’s going on.

It’s impossible for her to know everything – and that’s not her job; that’s for me to know. But she does know everything she wants to know about her career. We go through every contract and, actually, that accountability makes you a better manager.

I can genuinely, hand-on-heart, say I’ve always taken decisions in the best interests of her career, every single step of the way.

There have been some opportunities where I’ve gone, ‘I don’t think we should do that’, and she says, ‘I don’t know many other managers who would turn that down’, because they come with big pay packets or whatever.

And I’d say, ‘I just don’t think it’s appropriate for you’, and, if she says she wants to do it anyway, that’s fine! That’s a good foundation for a working relationship.

If you could change one thing about today’s music industry, what would it be and why?

It would be the burdens and pressures put on artists to deliver an infinite amount of content for multiple platforms. It’s not specific to one platform, but that’s a real challenge at the moment.

The music industry changes, it’s changed over the 10 years I’ve been working with

Becky and the 20 years I’ve been working in music and you move with that.

But what I’d really like to see is – for artists who aren’t native to certain platforms or aren’t comfortable with delivering the volume of content demanded of artists now – for us to restructure the narrative as to what a successful or relevant artist is, if they can’t or don’t want to do that.

You can still be successful if you’re not doing that. It’s a systemic change that needs to happen but I’m not sure it will or can.

And where does Becky go next: global superstardom?

The MO from day one was always, let’s see how far we can take this, without ever compromising on what she wants to do.

Rewind 11 years and she had that voice, her writing, her hard work – all of those things can take her to the very highest level. We are at an incredible level now, but we don’t just want to be in the top 1%, we want to be in the top 0.1%. n

Beren Olivia Alex Hosking

‘WE TAKE A GREAT DEAL OF PRIDE IN PUSHING INDIVIDUAL AND COLLECTIVE BOUNDARIES’

20 years ago ATC transformed itself from a boutique ticketing and marketing agency to a management company. Since then it has continued to evolve and is now a global group involved in touring, services, artist partnerships and more – whilst still handling over 50 management clients. MBUK met three of its senior execs to catch up with a company that never stands still…

ATC is a prime example of the multi-faceted nature of music businesses today. Founded 20 years ago as a management company, it’s since grown to encompass a live agency, services provider, live streaming business, an artist partnerships venture and a newly launched experiences arm. The new divisions and disciplines arrived in response to the evolving needs of managers as the digital revolution took place.

The founding tenets of ATC’s founders and co-Chairmen of the business, Craig Newman and Brian Message, centred on

the idea that artist managers would be stronger when operating under the same roof. Today, ATC MD Sumit Bothra describes the company as consisting of a cohesive group of execs who share knowledge and support.

“ATC management is not simply a collection of artist managers autonomously and independently working under the same roof,” he says. “It’s a collection of managers that are diverse across age, gender, genres and backgrounds with varied perspectives, which we share freely amongst each other. We’ve worked hard to create an

environment that houses specialists outside of purely artist management, and we strive towards delivering on collaboration and providing immediate added benefit to any manager and artist who chooses to work with us.”

ATC, which remains independent, has four offices around the world, including its HQ in London, as well as bases in Los Angeles, New York and Copenhagen. In 2021, it floated on the Aquis Stock Exchange, raised £4.2m, and subsequently launched ATC Experiences, led by Despina Tsatsas, and live streaming platform, Driift.

L-R: Sumit Bothra, Alex Bruford, Despina Tsatsas

Photo: Chris Lopez

Alongside the evolution of its services, ATC’s artist roster has diversified from predominantly indie rock acts (like PJ Harvey, Nick Cave and Fink). Today, it also reps house/hip-hop act Yaeji, Ghanaian singer and Interscope signing Amaarae, producer/DJ Avalon Emerson and electronic act Jacques Greene. Other artists to have recently joined the fold, alongside their managers, include the Hives and Black Country, New Road.

They all exist alongside a robust composer, producer and songwriter roster, which was launched during lockdown. On the live agency side (which delivers over 6,000 shows per year), key acts include Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, Sleaford Mods, Fontaines DC and The Lumineers.

This year, ATC is working on new campaigns from PJ Harvey, Amaarae, Katie Melua, Black Country, New Road and The Goa Express, amongst others. Here, we chat to Bothra, Tsatsas and ATC Live CEO Alex Bruford about company culture, the impact of the IPO, their biggest challenges and much more besides.

There are a lot of management companies these days that have branched out into what might once have been deemed ‘non-traditional’ areas of management. What makes ATC unique in that environment?

Sumit Bothra: The culture. There’s a shared culture at ATC, on both sides of the Atlantic and across all of the business, that’s very artist- and person-centric. The way we encourage collaboration is quite different, that’s certainly what I gather from speaking to other managers and organisations that do varied things.

We have regular meetings with our transatlantic colleagues, we have a robust A&R process. We have weekly internal meetings, we do a yearly retreat. We’re hyper-communicative with each other. No one here is off limits to a conversation with anyone else in the organisation.

One of the other things that makes this company special is the fact that it recognises itself as an ever-evolving organism. No one at ATC is ever left on an island and everyone, managers and artists alike, are

encouraged to input on the company’s curation and development so that it can respond to their growing needs.

This manifests itself in many ways, whether that be through regular social gatherings, professional development and training, the hires of specialist personnel, or improvements to our physical environment.

How does that culture have an impact on what you’re able to deliver for artists?

Despina Tsatsas: ATC is an independent business that has grown in all these different ways and, coming in as a total outsider over the last few months, I can see that there’s a lot of integrity. What we deliver for artists is very authentic — no one’s driving them to do activities they don’t want to do.

When you’re talking to managers with a view to bringing them into ATC, what are you looking for?

SB: Over the last few years, artists have developed TV scripts, written and published books, undertaken commissionbased projects, collaborated with brands, launched a crowdfunded game, opened a shop, undertaken thousands of live events, created virtual instrument libraries, and launched their own rights businesses.

DT: With ATC Experience, part of the invitation from Craig and Brian was about being as ambitious as possible about finding different opportunities for artists across performing arts, visual arts, and the online world-building that is increasingly existing for them to inhabit and create within.

Part of the strength of our new division is an answer to that question: how can we have robust service teams for artists, no matter what idea they have, so that we can keep that inside ATC, rather than having to immediately go outside the business when someone has a beautiful idea about a different format of work? That’s how we’re approaching the idea of resilience, building in a really challenging and competitive environment, and a touring and recording cycle, which takes its toll on artists in lots of different ways.

SB: At its core, the culture here is collaborative, emotionally generous, commercially minded and brave. We take a great deal of pride in our work and in pushing individual and collective boundaries.

I’m always attracted to managers, as well as artists, that have an entrepreneurial flair, but also those that see the value in collaborative work and in sharing their knowledge for the greater good.

That’s a hallmark of any executive at our company — they tend to be built that way. And they’re quite selfless in their endeavours, which I think is a very special thing.

It can be difficult to make money from recorded music alone these days. How does ATC’s structure empower artists to move beyond the traditional income streams?

Alex Bruford: On the live agency side, we’re more involved in the long-term strategic planning for the acts than we’ve ever been.

When artists break, they break so quickly now – and get offered so much –that if they are not given some guidance as to what to say yes or no to, they will say yes to everything and six months down the line, they’ll be on the road and realise they can’t do it all.

We work closely with managers, in-house and externally, to try and make sure that we’re predicting what’s going to happen to the artist down the line, and to make sure they’re doing the right shows at the right time and saying yes to the right opportunities, leaving them a career path that is not going to have them burnt out halfway along it.

SB: The strategic input is crucial. It’s also

“At its core, the culture here is collaborative, emotionally generous, commercially minded and brave.”

one of the beautiful things about having all of these services under the same roof. Because, as a manager, when you’re giving strategic input and advice to an artist, you have to be thinking about all of the different pieces of the puzzle.

You need to be thinking about their live career, their audience development, their own health and maintaining their well-being. You need to be thinking about yourself and making sure you’ve got a good balance as well.

At the same time, you’re thinking about building strong businesses, futureproofing those businesses, and paying attention to how that artist is going to continue to innovate in the future.

Despina, where do you see the most exciting opportunities in the experiences area, both from an engagement and monetary perspective?

DT: The notion of what a piece of work is is going to change. The explosion of home entertainment, combined with the

explosion of the immersive economy, means there’s an expectation from our audiences to have these incredibly fulfilling, rich, immersive experiences.

That puts pressure on the cultural distributor and the artist to make sure that what they’re generating feels quite visceral.

When I think about the opportunity, I think, where are those artists who are interested in making pieces of work that interact with each other and create visceral power?

In the way that you might feel when you hear a song that absolutely transforms you, what does that look like when it’s mapped onto a physical space? How can we use projection or technology to make an audience really feel it – and also feel like they can actively engage with it?

Hardware and software is developing and there’s going to be way more of what they call ‘presence’ in virtual and AR worlds. So you’re going to be able to touch and feel stuff, you won’t just be an

avatar with no legs. That’s where I see the most exciting creative opportunities.

From a financial perspective, my goal is that artists are not just remunerated when their work is distributed or filtered, but also to originate work.

I’m interested in the people in the sector who want to build partnerships with us to commission artists to make original works that can sit across many different formats.

What kind of people or companies might they be?

DT: They might be people with real estate opportunities, those who have, for example, large-scale projection mapped venues that want licensable content from artists with integrity and who bring their own audience. Or an artist that has something to say.

There are so many ATC artists, writing and recording records, that have the most beautiful in-built narratives. The question is: who is going to be clever on

PJ Harvey Jungleboi

the real estate and the financing side and meet us as a house that has some really collaborative, creative artists?

SB: Also, in VR and AR, companies that are developing the software and hardware are going to have an increased need and demand for exceptional content. That’s going to be a pretty big area of opportunity for us.

DT: Absolutely. Radiohead created a joint venture with Epic and built the most beautiful art experience. That was something which had all of the values of Radiohead’s extraordinary albums refracted into a different form that was just thrilling for audiences.

I’m not saying that every artist has the same capability, but we know that there are certain tech partners, real estate partners and financiers that are interested in this [area].

Alex, what’s the role of an agent in 2023? And has that changed over the last few years alongside the huge challenges the live industry has gone through?

AB: Our primary focus is building artists’ live touring profiles for the long-term and

offering local market advice to label, PR and partners, it could be bringing new corporate opportunities to the table, tour marketing oversight, helping the artist understand and grow their digital audience, or providing experiential opportunities for them.

The role has changed a lot. Although the core focus is still on building touring careers, how we do that is much more involved than it used to be.

how we do that has changed quite a bit over the last few years.

Rather than just booking shows, we try to be an integral member of the team and continue to engage with management to add value wherever possible. That could be on long-term strategic planning,

I’m hearing that it’s really challenging right now to build a career as a new live act, which is partly due to Brexit and the lasting impact of the COVID-19 pandemic. How are you finding the market for new acts?

AB: It’s harder than ever. Partly for the reasons you stated, partly because of the sheer volume of new artists and new music that is out there.

For a lot of new acts, it’s not even about trying to make money, it’s just about

“You need to be thinking about their live career, their audience development and their well-being.”

The Goa Express

covering costs, or making a loss they can afford to cover. But I think it comes down to timing and strategy. When you open the door, you’ve got to be ready to go. The artists we work with that have become successful are the ones that are able to keep up that momentum of releases and touring.

Some of our artists have been recording multiple records at the same time so, when they finish the tour, they can release another record immediately. Others have been able to keep up that creative pace. There’s the challenge of going away for two or three years to write your next record, and if you come back, people don’t remember who you are.

On the agency side, we’re trying to liaise closely with artists to make sure that the releases and touring strategy line up. So, even though their first tour is going to cost money, we are able to light fires across multiple markets that will enable them to come back and hopefully break even on their next tour and start building their career.

We always try to build markets simultaneously. We don’t know if the artist is going to be big in the Netherlands, Spain or Germany first. So, rather than just focusing on the UK, we’ll build them across as many markets as we can – and if you get success in any of them, that can be your bridgehead to coming to Europe, Asia, Australia or Latin America.

Sumit, as you know, with your involvement with ATC as well as MMF, there’s been a huge debate over the last couple of years on the economics of streaming and whether the market is truly working for creators. What’s your perspective on that whole debate?

SB: One of the main issues is that the streaming economy benefits the creator community unevenly. It’s not a binary conversation as to whether the streaming economy is simply good or bad.

There are some amazing positives, like the fact that there are more artists than ever before generating millions of streams per month. Artists with catalogues are seeing a huge benefit from the streaming economy,

with catalogue now accounting for 86% of all streams through the DSPs.

However, one example of a sector of the community that isn’t benefiting as much is the songwriting community, which we know has grown about 73% over the last 10 years. Yet, only 2% of the songwriting community here in the UK earns more

Alex’s point about paying attention to international markets is really important. We do the same thing with the artists that we represent. We take a global view and treat a fan in any part of the world with the same amount of respect as we do a fan here in the UK. We always encourage our artists and managers to be thinking globally at all times.

We know that there are supply chain issues as well, especially amongst the PROs, but we also know that a great deal of investment is going into trying to fix some of those issues and deliver greater transparency for the rightsholders and creators.

than £50,000 a year. We also know that 94% of the PRS membership earned less than £10,000 in 2019.

Having said that, the world is getting smaller. Half of UK streaming income comes from outside of the UK. So

Also, the streaming economy has grown from 26% of all listenership in the UK to over 47% and we know that radio is, unfortunately, declining in that respect. So it presents a great opportunity, it’s just uneven. The system needs constant improvement. We need to be paying attention to those that are at the thin edge

“One of the main issues is that the streaming economy benefits the creative community unevenly.”

The Hives

of the stick and make sure that we try and breathe a more democratised landscape into the streaming economy so that it’s fairer for all.

I think there have been great strides towards trying to address it, but it’s going to be a long journey.

Do you have any suggestions or potential solutions?

SB: We need greater transparency on the inner workings of this system; we need to review and improve contracts that pre-date streaming technology; we need innovation to improve rights databases and the supply chain; and we need the creators or their representatives at the table to input on technological improvements that lead to a fairer distribution of wealth.

Government intervention can, of course, also be helpful to encourage advancement and urgency on these conversations and to enshrine certain outcomes or recommendations into law, as we see in many other countries around the world.

ATC floated on the Aquis Stock Exchange in 2021. What impact has the IPO had on the company and the way in which you operate?

SB: On the UK management side specifically, it’s allowed us to make some new hires, including in creative/A&R, to better serve our writer and producer roster. We’re exploring strategic partnerships with others because we now have the ability to invest.

We’ve created an artist development fund on the management side, which has been most recently successfully deployed for one of our younger artists, Izzi De-Rosa. The development fund allows our managers to be more effective and respond to momentum.

The IPO has also raised the capital that’s allowed the creation of Despina’s company, ATC Experience, and it’s allowed us to invest heavily in the corporate team, which is the backbone of operating and securing the financial health of those in the company.

It facilitated the creation of the New York office, and last year we welcomed five new managers and support staff into the company.

It’s allowed us to invest in our space here at the ATC London headquarters in Camden, which has been of huge benefit, especially as most of our managers, agents and corporate personnel are in this building at least three to four days a week.

DT: It also enabled us to continue being independent, to set our own course and to allow those [who founded the company] to continue to set the identity and the business and have the ability to invest in new business areas as and when opportunities arise.

It brought in support from institutional shareholders who have good knowledge about the sector and who can also invest in developing complementary business areas. It certainly feels like an act of resilience and [an effort] to try and enshrine the future of ATC.

Amaarae KABBA

KEY SONGS IN THE LIFE OF…

Vanessa Bosåen

The Virgin Music UK boss selects five tracks that took her from a wannabe-Mariah to the direct-deal division of Universal – via her own label and some Camden pubs…

Vanessa Bosåen joined Universal a little over two years ago as head of the company’s UK artist and label services division, just as it was being rebranded from Caroline to Virgin

She was a natural fit for a role that revolves around dealing with independent labels and artists, having run one of the former and been one of the latter (straight out of university Bosåen played live shows all over the world, a onewoman purveyor of ‘dark pop’ and big nights). Reflecting on both experiences, she says: “It gives you a fundamental understanding that you really have to care about where every penny of your budget is being spent, and about every decision.”

It was her time as an artist that led directly to her launching a label, Regent Street Records. She says: “I was dealing with labels, managers and agents. And, to be honest, I had some really, really bad experiences. I met some terrible people. I thought, fuck that, I’m going to be in charge of every single revenue stream that I could possibly ever have. So I started my own company – a label, a publisher and a live agency – and I realised that I loved doing that stuff.”

Her next move was to instigate the pooling of catalogues from around 20 other indies to form a coalition called BritSync, with the idea of bringing some strength in depth to sync pitches.

That, in turn, led to her being offered a seat on the BPI board: “Suddenly, I find

myself sitting opposite David Joseph, Max Lousada and Jason Iley, telling them I know everything about everything,” [laughs]. At least one of them was clearly listening… She describes Virgin as a company that does “artist- and label-direct deals”, adding, “I’m not sure we have the correct language yet for what we do. We are a distribution and services company, but we’ve evolved

leading to the creation of a specialist imprint, Parachute.

“I also have to mention Mushroom, they’re a great partner for us [Virgin signed a worldwide deal with the legendary Australian label last year]. I think that’s a really exciting example of how Virgin can work globally. They’ve got artists who are starting to pop off in all different territories. And, as Virgin, we can focus on the territories where they’re working, and then import those stories to other markets, because we’ve got offices in 18 countries and we’re always closely connected.”

both the standard of service available and the global connectivity of our territories to a level that I don’t believe the industry has seen before. And we’re doing that with some brilliant people who have certainly restored my faith.”

Within the sector, she says “Virgin is the gold standard, a VIP club”, and always looking “to operate at the very top end, both with artists and labels”.

In the last year or so the division has enjoyed notable success with, amongst others, Rema’s Calm Down (which has sailed past a billion streams), D-Block Europe (the most-streamed UK-signed artist within Universal last year) and an eclectic run of dance music hits,

Looking forward, Bosåen is excited about forthcoming releases from French The Kid (“I’m obsessed with him”), Krept and Konan (“a dream to work with”) and a new album by The DMAs via Mushroom. “I wanted to mention The Oozes as well, because if you haven’t heard of them, look them up, you won’t forget them. Then there are completely brand-new artists, who haven’t released anything yet, like Kaeto and Nadine.”

And if you think they’re a touch obscure, read on…

1. Ella Fitzgerald, Someone to Watch Over Me (1927)

I knew I was going to be a musician from the age of about four or five. The kind of vocalists that I was hearing when I was young were Mariah Carey, Whitney

“To be honest, I had some really bad experiences, I met some terrible people.”

Houston, Christina Aguilera, these huge voices – and I wanted to sing like that. Of course, I couldn’t, but that didn’t stop me trying!

I was just trying to belt it out, go higher and higher. It was my dad who said, ‘No, you need to think like Ella Fitzgerald, listen to her voice, listen to how she uses it.’  At the time, of course, I didn’t agree at all. And then I got older, and I was like, yep, I get it now. She’s so effortless, so beautiful. I used to sing this song and try and sing it like her ¬–impossible, of course, but she – and my dad – definitely taught me a valuable lesson.

2. New Adventures, How I Got My Devil Back (2010)

Let me explain [laughs]. I’ve gone super, super obscure, but you’ll see why. When we were teenagers, when we looked just old enough to get into places, my mate’s brother had a band called Reagan, then they were called Fans Of Kate, then they were called New Adventures, and we would desperately try and live their rockstar lifestyle.

To me, they looked like the kings of rock n roll. They were playing bars in Camden, they signed to an indie label, it was just a really exciting time. Me and my core group of friends used to follow them around, and we still go and see them when they get back together.

This particular song, I was always obsessed with it, and when I got married a couple of years ago I called the lead

imagine how it could work at my wedding one day. And then it ended up being the song I walked down the aisle to and our first dance.

3. The Maybys, Hi My Name Is Indie (2015)

I’ve gone obscure again. But again for a good reason! When I was running Regent Street Records, I worked with loads of fantastic artists and musicians. And I knew I had to have a Regent Street song in here, but it’s impossible to choose, because these are some of my dearest and closest friends.

singer, Jez, and asked him to sing this at my wedding. Thankfully, he said yes, and it was just a wonderful moment to have all those teenage memories come flooding back.

I always related to the lyrics. It’s a big, emotional song from a band who basically always wanted to be Coldplay. I used to listen to it while I was out running and

The reason I went for this one is that it was written by two guys, Geoff and Carl, two of the most brilliant musicians and producers that I adore working with.

I was in the studio one day when they played this as a demo and I just fell in love with it straightaway.

I was thinking about why I fell in love with it, and I think it’s partly because Geoff and Carl are musicians who are also activists, in the truest sense of the

“This is an example of what we all live for as executives in the music industry.”

word. They really care about the working class, the lives that they live, and that’s expressed in this song, in a really beautiful, understated way.

They actually didn’t want to release it, but I told them, I’m going to release this because I need this on my playlist, so we put it out on Regent Street Records.

4. Kaeto, Good Morning (2022)

This is an example of what we all live for as executives in the music industry: you hear a song from an artist who hasn’t released anything yet and you think, ‘Fuck me, that’s brilliant.’

And then I saw the video, and that is another great example of someone who, as an independent artist, doesn’t have a lot of money to play with. Quite often, in fact, we would say don’t make a video unless it’s going to add something to your song. And definitely don’t spend money that you don’t have on a video.

Then I saw the video she made for this, and my God does it add something. It really introduces you to who she is, and you can see that she’s made it with real intelligence.

As a case study for other independent artists on how to plant a flag in the sand, you don’t have to look much further than this song and this video.

5. Rema, Calm Down (2022)

I just couldn’t do this without including Calm Down.

We all got to listen to the album [Rave & Roses] early last year, and every single one of us was like, it’s Calm Down, that’s the track. It’s liquid gold in a song.

The album was released, and it did fine, but nothing really, really big happened. We were thinking, ‘Okay, what can we do? Because we know there’s more here than what’s happening. How can we move the needle?’

And then we got a call from Thomas Lorain, who runs Virgin France, and he said, it’s starting to happen here, I can see the green shoots, get everyone in a room and let’s go.

And so we all got together with Virgin France. Thomas started doing his magic tricks, things started to go brilliantly in France – and then the Netherlands, then Belgium, then Switzerland.

By this point, we were eight or nine months after release, and before all this happened, we wanted to go back to UK radio. But they were saying, ‘Nothing’s happening’.

Now we had No.1 in four or five countries, so we could say, ‘Listen, you have to play this track’. And that was the moment when the Selena Gomez remix came in as well. So we had more of a story, and that’s when it started to fly here in the UK and across the rest of the world. And it’s still going - its chart peak week is right now! [late February].

Looking forward, there is new Rema music coming soon. I can’t say too much about it right now, but what I can say is that this isn’t a one-off.

If anyone’s seen Rema perform, they will understand that this is a true global superstar level artist. The moment I realised that was at Wireless festival just over a year ago. He was doing his set and something happened in the crowd which meant he had to stop for a moment.

At which point, this 21-year-old artist delivered an a cappella version of the song he’d been singing and he was absolutely pitch perfect. And not just that, but he had complete control of the crowd. It can take some performers years and years to be that good and that sure, but he just did it instinctively and it was fantastic. n

Rema

Jamie Spinks was recently promoted to Head of A&R at Columbia, having joined the label last year after a decade at Polydor. He tells MBUK about his approach to the new role, the Polydor years, including his view on RAYEgate, and how A&R is evolving, but must stay true to its roots...

The great Columbian revolution is under way.

Sony’s frontline label – storied home of Bruce Springsteen, Bob Dylan, Harry Styles and Adele – is under new management in the UK.

New President Dipesh Parmar and Managing Director Amy Wheatley took over from outgoing President Ferdy UngerHamilton in December last year, and one of their first moves was to appoint Jamie Spinks as the label’s new Head of A&R.

It’s just reward for Spinks after several years as one of the UK’s most highly rated A&R executives, during which he signed the likes of RAYE, Jax Jones, Celeste and Mura Masa.

His musical journey began when he got a set of decks for his 15th birthday. He immersed himself in the worlds of garage, grime and The Streets and decided he wanted to be a producer. He studied sound engineering and design at Ravensbourne University, where he realised that, while he liked being in the studio, he was better at working with musicians than making music himself.

He wrangled himself an A&R internship at Polydor – then run by Unger-Hamilton – and, while Spinks spent much of his time making tea and answering Cheryl Cole fanmail, the location of his desk right outside Unger-Hamilton’s office meant that he could often pick the boss’ brains.

When the internship ended, he persuaded Polydor to keep him on as an admin assistant and started attending A&R meetings. Having brought in Bastille before they signed elsewhere, the label’s then head of A&R Ben Mortimer spotted his potential, promoted him and Spinks went on a golden run of signings, helping to reshape Polydor’s

‘OUR AMBITION IS TO SIGN ACTS WITH THE BEST TALENT AND BREAK THEM ON A GLOBAL SCALE’

Photo: Joe Magowan

roster. When Unger-Hamilton left, Spinks stepped up to work with Ellie Goulding on her smash Brightest Blue album [2020].

He stayed at Polydor until UngerHamilton brought him over to Sony as an A&R and set up a joint venture on Spinks’ own Room Two label, a more boutique/ underground offering than the full might of Columbia. And this time, Spinks didn’t have to answer any fanmail…

“Ferdy’s an incredible mentor and friend and part of the reason I came to Columbia was to reunite with him, because we worked incredibly well together at Polydor,” Spinks says. “But it’s the music industry and things change very quickly. Dipesh has come in and he’s a great guy, I’m really looking forward to working with him. I have huge respect for his career and what he’s done.”

So, now, Spinks will be running Room Two – named after the part of the club that plays the more interesting, leftfield tunes, and inspired by culture-leading labels such as PMR and Black Butter – and Columbia’s A&R operations, with Parmar praising his “wealth of knowledge and experience”.

“Jamie lives and breathes A&R,” Parmar adds. “He is meticulous when it comes to details and has exceptional taste – that’s what sets him apart from his competitors. My background is A&R, my focus is the future of Columbia Records and to work alongside Jamie to mould what that looks like is truly exciting.

“Columbia is an iconic label with a diverse roster of incredible artists, but it was clear the team needed shaping for the future and Jamie is exactly that. We are very similar in our approach when it comes to signing and are laser-focused on signing culturally relevant exciting new artists with a desire to win.”

And Spinks is already making waves. He has signed fast-rising drum and bass star Venbee, having a big breakout moment with Messy In Heaven, to Room Two, and has also snapped up the “inspiring” Rudimental (“They’ve always been great at using where the underground is and turning that into music that’s digestible for the masses,” grins Spinks. “I’m really excited to get into it with them”).

But, before he gets stuck into the new role, Spinks welcomes MBUK into the Room Two office in Sony’s new London HQ to offer some revelations about the revolution…

How do you decide if an artist is right for Room Two or for Columbia?

It’s more down to the artist and their understanding of what Room Two is going to be, or if they’re coming from a certain place in culture. The intention isn’t for Room Two to be a dance label as such, but it is for it to come from a place of cool, slightly left-of-centre music.

If it’s just straight to market, big songs or a singer-songwriter that needs major label development and investment, then it’s more Columbia. It’s a gut instinct and a mutual decision; it’s happened naturally so far.

At Polydor, you signed a lot of new acts and then worked with Ellie Goulding when she was already a star. Did that require a very different approach?

In some respects. You have access to any songwriter you like. With a new artist you’re like, ‘If only I could get them in with that person’. With Ellie, you could get her into any room.

It was so exciting to be able to make those connections, especially in the US, with songwriters that are writing huge songs and working with Ariana Grande, Miley Cyrus and The Weeknd. Because the artists I had were growing, to have one at that level was a great learning experience.

You signed RAYE to her Polydor deal. What have you made of recent events with her?

I’m really happy for her and proud to have been involved with her development. I left Polydor before all that stuff happened.

There’s a lot of context to her journey, but it shows there are a lot of options for artists. I’m really happy that she’s had success – she’s one of the most talented people I’ve ever worked with and she deserves it.

Venbee

Photo: Caitlin Ricaud

Was the original vision for her music close to what she’s doing now?

We were always trying to figure it out together. I always had a vision for her to be an albums artist. At the time, pop music was driven by quite a formulaic process of what a hit song sounded like.

She was a victim of her own success in a sense. She’d go in with someone else and write a song for them that was massive. She was good at everything – writing dance music or R&B so, for all of us, it was like, ‘What path do we follow?’

Now is the right time for her, whereas at the time it was hard figuring out what a body of work sounded like for her. And with music the way it is at the moment, it plays to her strengths. She’s unique and unconventional in her writing and that’s what works now.

Why did you decide to leave Polydor?

I’d been there 12 years and it felt like it was time for a change. I had a roster of artists that were brilliantly talented, but I’d probably given my all in terms of what I had to give to them and their careers.

It was also a healthy personal change. Having a roster like that, I could have rested on my laurels, but the ultimate ambition is to keep testing and challenging myself. Leaving and having a blank canvas felt scary and I wanted the challenge of that.

There’s this slight imposter syndrome: Do I deserve this? Was it luck? Can I do it again? I wanted to see if I could develop a successful artist again and that pushes you to do your best work. It was the right time, and I had the offer of starting a JV and having ownership over a brand. I loved working at Polydor and it felt like my home, but it was time.

Columbia has historically been a rock label. Now you, Dipesh and Amy are here, will it become more dance-oriented?

Columbia has an incredible roster of successful global acts and has longstanding and experienced A&Rs within the team. Whether it’s Julian Palmer at the helm of

Rag ‘N’ Bone Man or Martin Dell working on George Ezra, I’m confident in the versatility of the wider team to be able to deliver the next generation of global acts.

There’s a reason Adele, Ed Sheeran and Sam Smith are the biggest artists in the world, because they’re 10 out of 10 in terms of talent, songwriting and vocal. And that’s what we need to be focusing on. Our ambition is to sign acts with the best talent and break them on a global scale.

There are so many different ways of A&R-ing at the moment: TikTok, data opportunity A&R, stuff coming from culture in drum and bass and dance music and then you have the old school development way of A&R – and it’s up to us to be doing all of that. You have to be open to all ways of having success.

What’s the secret to breaking artists in the current climate?

I don’t think there’s a secret. What I always look for is, obviously, number one, the

Why has it been so hard to break new artists in recent years?

Because, over the past three years, the pandemic has shut down any type of scene. We’re seeing a drum and bass era that we’re managing to push Venbee through at the moment, but it didn’t exist when people weren’t allowed to go out. There was no culture, no DJs, no underground.

There’s been no community for anybody to incubate in, it’s just been, ‘Can I make the best content and the best TikTok videos?’ But that’s just a moment in time and can be gone as quickly as it comes.

Is too much emphasis put on TikTok as a way to break things?

There was, but it’s slightly more in transition now. During the pandemic, unless you were having a moment on TikTok, I don’t know if it was possible to break through.

It was an obsession, not just within the music industry, but outside of it too and it was the way you broke an artist. Now it’s an essential part of the campaign, but it’s not the only part, and that’s helpful.

TikTok or the way music breaks is very song-oriented, and we need to get back to trying to break artists and give them longevity. That’s how we’re going to have bodies of work and more sophisticated music.

talent, songwriting, the vocal. I’m looking for something different that I haven’t heard before.

With Celeste, her vocal is incredible –there wasn’t much of a decision to be made. But also, we realised there was something happening in the jazz community and there was a scene in which to incubate her. That’s really important.

Nine times out of 10 in the UK, an artist comes through a scene that’s incubated them or they’ve used really well to give themselves a platform. Ed Sheeran, Jess Glynne, Sam Smith with Disclosure: all artists that have made it having a community around them in the beginning. Whenever I see somebody with amazing talent and an idea of who their community is, that always resonates with me.

What needs to change so that the UK starts producing global stars again?

We’ve come to a point where it’s a song culture and there’s no long-term buy-in. The audience likes a song, then they’ll go off and like another one. It’s about learning from Dua [Lipa] and Ed [Sheeran]; it takes time and patience.

Not every song needs to be a hit record. We need to be less scared of every song having commercial success and more worried about how you bring an audience in and make them care about an artist. Creating that longevity will enable us to break globally.

What’s the potential for an artist like Venbee? Could she be a global star?

“Leaving and having a blank canvas felt scary and I wanted the challenge of that.”

I think so. With her songwriting and ability to relate to a young generation, she reminds me of a female Ed Sheeran. She has the ability to evoke emotion from people lyrically and she’s saying things in a very direct and honest way which I haven’t heard somebody do before. She can evolve into a global artist and singer-songwriter.

Does the success of RAYE and other independent artists pose a problem for major labels?

There are a lot of options artists can take, but there will always be a place for the major label way of finding a talent and funding them in the long term. I don’t think it makes it harder.

We need to think about how long it takes and for us to be patient with an artist. But there’s still no better way of building a career and an audience and we’ll always be here to invest in really talented people.

I remember having to go up against XL in deals, there’s always been a boutique label experience outside of the

[major] system that people can offer. But with the investment we can offer, the A&R value and the marketing we can add, it’s still the best way to create a global proposition.

When it comes to signings, do you rely more on gut instinct or data?

I listen to my gut most. But, in the world we’re in at the moment, it can be helpful to have data – although it can also make things more complicated sometimes. I normally do A&R on feeling – if you have the feeling and there’s data to back it up, it’s great. Having just one is harder!

If you could change one thing about today’s music industry, right here and now, what would it be and why?

I don’t know if I have to be diplomatic, but the one thing I face frustration with being an A&R is, I would like to see artists have more control over the amount of music that they’re allowed to release.

In my experience, it’s really affecting for somebody who is creative to be restrained

in what they’re allowed to put out. I would like to see a world in which we release more music for different purposes. I’d love to see people being able to do stuff with more freedom for certain audiences, for their underground audience.

It’s really important for artists’ mental health – not being able to put something out that they love. You’d have music that presents your artist as an artist and not just a hitmaker.

What will success look like for you five years down the line?

I would love to have a few artists that have stood the test of five years, some artists with longevity. I want to be having hit records but with artists that people are going to be listening to in 20 years.

The UK has always developed those artists that have transcended time: Adele, Ed – I’d like the next generation of those and to feel like we’ve done our bit in taking responsibility, breaking artists globally and having voices and songs that are going to stand the test of time. n

Spinks with Rudimental

MBUK’s ongoing partnership with the fantastic Did Ya Know? podcast continues, with pod co-founder Adrian Sykes talking to David Miller about his incredible career, how and why he now lives and works in the States, and the problems with the UK industry…

Growing up, David Miller never really believed he would make it as a leading music industry executive in the UK. And, in a sense, he was right.

Importantly, though, he made that decision for himself – and conquered the US instead. It’s the equivalent of skipping the trial for QPR but then playing centremid for Barcelona.

After establishing himself through renowned club nights, most famously at the Kensington Roof Gardens, and then in tour management (for the likes of Jay-Z, Usher, Biggie Smalls and more) he moved into the recorded music business via BMG.

He enjoyed considerable success, but it was undercut by a sense of frustration. He says: “It was great, because it was hip-hop, it was culture, and it was positive for the most part, but it was also, you know, the same old UK, unfortunately, trying to hold that culture back.”

America was calling. Specifically, Mariah Carey was calling, offering Miller a key role as part of her New York-based global team. He moved across and has never returned.

After spending two years with Carey, helping to kick-start the second act of her career after a notorious low point, he joined Def Jam, where he became Senior Director, International Marketing & Artist Development. From there he joined Atlantic Records, where he stayed until 2015.

He now runs his own management and consultancy company, SevenGrand, and is also working with Roc Nation, having been asked up the company’s live game by

founder, Jay-Z, who Miller has known for around two decades. “I’ve got a niche and I love it,” he says.

His story, and the level of his success across the years, however, are not niche. They are both, in fact, epic and significant.

You’ve spoken before about the admiration you had as a young man trying to break through for executives such as Andre Harrell, Puffy, Brett Wright, who are all, of course, American. Was there no one over here inspiring you at that time?  There were maybe a couple, but the problem was that everybody kind of kept everybody else at arm’s length; there was no

know, there was and is a lot of politics that go with this business: scratching the right people’s backs, knowing how to hold your own in meetings, understanding strategy and development – things that most people in our community weren’t exposed to, in that way, most of the time.

So I didn’t have any patience for it. And the Americans that I met embraced me immediately. It was like, ‘You’re the guy, come and do this for us.’

It’s interesting, because there would have been some Black British execs making their way at that time, who I’m sure you’d have known, but they obviously never had the same effect on you as their American counterparts… Because they never reached out Adrian! You were the only one…  they didn’t care about anybody else, they only cared about themselves.

When did you decide you wanted to get even more inside the heart of the business?

unity in our community. And there were a few acts around that time who could have been really successful, but I don’t think the people around them took advantage of the opportunities in the right way.

We just weren’t united, and we just weren’t exposed enough to the frontline business and the sort of frontline marketing and promotion that was required. It wasn’t opened up to our community in a way that we understood. A lot of people thought you just make a record, you look good and you become successful. But as you and I

Well, it’s funny, because, if you remember, Usher was getting big, there was Sisqó, Dru Hill; these guys were basically becoming the pop music of the day.

But for me, having had all these accounts with nearly every single label, my opportunities to make money actually became less and less, because all the mainstream companies suddenly wanted to work with all the Black artists that I’d built my business on, because they were now mainstream.

‘UNTIL THERE IS A BLACK BRITISH SUPERSTAR THAT EVERYONE IN THE BUILDING GETS BEHIND, IN THE SAME WAY THAT THEY’VE DONE WITH ED SHEERAN, ADELE AND DUA LIPA, THEN THERE IS NO CHANGE’

“They’re all backing their best mate’s son and the people they went to university with.”

At the same time, Ged Doherty and Mervyn Lyn asked me if I would come in and be a Product Manager at BMG. And I was like, Yeah, course, I can do that. Again, just being brave and super-confident – but actually having no idea what it was like to work within a record company.

So, I went in, and there’s Simon Cowell sitting opposite me, and all these executives who all knew what they were doing.

It was a fantastic experience in one way, but after a couple of years, as my profile started to grow, it became difficult in another way, because there were white executives in the company who didn’t like the fact I was getting pats on the back, that I was controlling the narrative and the budget and doing really, really well.

The promotions people, the radio and TV people, they thought that they were the bee’s knees, they were trying to tell me what to do. But Ged Doherty, let me tell you, that man had my back. And we

did so much incredible work with Alicia Keys and Pink and Luther Vandross and Usher, who was the jewel in the crown, the whole Bad Boy roster, Busta Rhymes.

And then your next move is something I always admired, because it was a real leap…

became her tour manager, and then her co-manager on and off for the last 20-odd years. And he’s still with her.

Anyway, Michael and her team asked me to do an event for them. We did an event for Mariah Carey in Hackney, if you can believe that. And she loved it. We all got on, we all talked, laughed and joked.

But then she had a disastrous album, Glitter [2001], and because of that she got rid of a bunch of people – it wasn’t the finest moment of her career.

You’ve got to believe in yourself, right? I was also very fortunate in that I’d struck up good relationships over a period of time, and a close friend of mine, Michael Richardson, became Mariah Carey’s security guy. But his ambition was to become more than that. And he did, he

She brought in new people, and I was one of them. I assumed the role of tour manager and international marketing exec. There was a small team of us that oversaw everything, it was crazy. I worked with her for two years. I was living in Manhattan and I was travelling around the world with the biggest-selling female artists of all time; it was incredible.

I think my experiences in the past set me up for that, working with Mushroom,

Mariah Carey

“We’re not entitled, so when there’s a little wobble, it makes us very nervous.”

Photo: Featureflash, Shutterstock

with MCA, with BMG, Simon Cowell, Ged Doherty, being around all these people kind of helped me keep my feet on the floor when I walked into this amazing bubble.

And it was a successful run. She put out an album called Charmbracelet [2002], which kind of resurrected her. It was a good album, which set her up for the next one [The Emancipation of Mimi, 2005], which was incredible.

But by that time, I had two small girls who’d moved to the States and I needed to be at home more, because we were on a plane every three or four weeks.

And then Kevin Liles, Lyor Cohen and Julie Greenwald found out I was in America, because they tried to sign Mariah at one point.

I’d worked with them as a consultant in the late 1990s and they were like, ‘Hey, we need you to come work for us.’ That was Def Jam, and that’s what I did. I became an international marketing exec and ended up Head of Urban Global Marketing and Artist Development. That was the breakout moment of my career.

Has there ever been a moment in your career when you’ve been daunted by an opportunity, or wondered if you’d bitten off more than you can chew?

You wouldn’t be human if you didn’t. I remember a time when I was hired by Christian Tattersfield and Nick Raphael at Northwestside, who had the foresight to recognise how great Jay-Z could be.

We were staying at The Landmark and I remember being downstairs by the car at 9:45 and thinking, you know what, I’ve got a bit of time, they’re never going to come down dead on 10, so I headed back to my room to do something or get something.

At 10:05, I walked back downstairs and Jay-Z was standing by the car. He gave me a look, like, ‘Yo, I thought we were leaving at 10 o’clock, you know what I’m saying; I’m a different guy.’

I remember Ty-Ty, who was his best mate, pulling me to one side later on and saying, ‘Just so you know, Jay’s never late; don’t treat him like no other rapper.’ He gave me the speech. And then our

relationship has grown from there. But that was definitely a moment.

Another was when I was on a private plane, with Puffy and Snoop. They’re drinking Champagne, whooping it up, playing music. And I remember thinking, I don’t think I can even describe to people what this feeling is, I don’t even want to tell people, because they might not believe me. You know, there’s lots of moments.

Will Smith’s manager, Benny Medina, oh, my God [laughs]. He was managing Puffy for a while and we were doing an event. He flew in late and we sent a car to pick him up.

He turned up and he said to me, ‘David, good to meet you, I’ve heard a lot about you.’ Then he pulled me to one side and said, ‘I notice you sent me a Mercedes 350 Saloon to pick me up from the airport. I’m not like a lot of other Americans, I know the difference between a Mercedes 500 and a 350. Don’t ever do that again, otherwise, you’ll be out of work.’

So yeah, there are little moments where you do doubt yourself. You panic, you worry, you think about going back to where you started. Are you going to blow your momentum? Are you going to lose this opportunity? Are you going to damage your brand? Because we’re not entitled Adrian, we have to work for every cent we make. And so if there’s a little wobble in the proceedings, it makes us very nervous.

Do you think you’d have had the level of success you’ve had if you had remained in the UK?

Is that a trick question [laughs]? No, absolutely not. In America, people want to succeed collectively. Everybody knows that they can’t achieve greatness on their own, it’s part of their culture – hard work and collective effort.

If someone needs something, or wants to move a project forward, or create something, the first thing they do is reach out to all the best people that they can find to help them achieve their goal, and they become a team.

Jay-Z

Photo: Debbie Wong, Shutterstock

The people in the UK that we grew up with did not connect and work together. If you’re not being supported by your own people, why would any other race or community reach out to support you when they can support their own? They’re all backing themselves, their cousins, their best mate’s sons, their brothers, the people they went to university with. Why would they reach out of their comfort zone to help someone else? Unless they’d formed a relationship with them, and even if they do, that’s just a one-off.

We all know three or four people back then who had jobs and did really well. But that doesn’t help the community, or us as a movement, or the culture. So, no, it was never going to happen. And by the way, here we are in 2023; can you name me an international Black superstar from the UK?

The word ‘superstar’ is synonymous with America. Why? Because they’ve achieved global domination and I’ve been very, very fortunate to be part of teams and labels that broke Kanye, that broke Rihanna, that broke Ne-Yo, that broke Flo Rida, that broke Usher, that broke Bruno Mars, and on and on and on. If you’re part of breaking seven or eight global superstar artists in 15 years working for labels, that’s pretty good odds.

Are [you] saying we don’t have the acts, or we don’t have the people to drive and achieve that success for the acts? Adrian, my brother, we definitely have the acts. The talent is everywhere in the UK, but you need to be united.

You can’t employ your mate who lives at

the appetite or the ambition to support Black talent. They don’t have it.

You’ve got to sit down with an artist and you’ve got to explain what global domination is. You’ve got to explain the difference between having a hit on 1Xtra and having a hit on Radio 1. And then on the Capital network. And then in Scotland and Ireland, and then across Europe, how to work your way through France and Germany, the two major markets, and then get to Italy and Spain later on.

And once you’ve achieved that, let’s wait till the second album, maybe the third album, when you’ve created some consistency and bred some confidence within your label and your distributor, and some income, some royalties, then

Now, not every artist responds to that conversation. But I just named you seven or so acts that I worked with for 15 years. If we get a ratio of one every two years that achieves global domination, we’re successful, aren’t we?

You and I have been in the UK business 25 years, maybe longer, there hasn’t been one. There’s been potential. But there needs to be an appetite, there needs to be someone in place that can speak to the culture, that can help develop the culture, that can organise the budgets, strategize the development and create global success.

But they don’t do that. They sign 100 acts who have mates as their managers, they have one hit from each act and do a couple of hundred million streams. And then they say thank you very much, let’s move on to the next one. There’s no cultivation, there’s no development, there’s no conversation, there’s no commitment, none, zero. And I know the difference.

What advice would you give to those young Black entrepreneurs, here in the UK that are starting out on the journey and want to make a difference and want to ensure that their acts have longevity and are able to break in different territories?

If I want to dress up and look right at an important event, where image is important, I go to a stylist. If I need my teeth done, I

artists that we’ve come across have, that needs to be nurtured and developed by the right people in the right way. And it’s sacrilege when it doesn’t happen.

So, no one’s saying that a new artist shouldn’t have his pal by his side. But the two of them have got to make a decision: okay, we can keep an eye on the books and the money, and I feel comfortable with you around, but we also need to go and talk to Adrian Sykes; we need to talk to David Miller; we need to talk to Danny D. We need to talk to people with career experience, who have made money, who are not thieves, who have a good reputation, who know people and can advise us, help us learn and build a career, to make sure we sign the right contract and we start off in the right way.

go to a dentist. I go to the places where people have expertise and knowledge and have been doing this for a long, long time.

Because I believe, and I know you think the same way Adrian, that if someone has the level of creative gifts that some of the

Align yourself with people who know what they’re doing and who can be the intermediary between yourselves and the monster that is the music industry. Because it is a monster, a monster that’s going to chew you up and spit you out.

Blaize

“An incredible artist needs to be handled with care and attention. And that’s not happening.”

Being an incredible artist with a unique talent is not something to be sniffed at, it needs to be handled with care and attention. And that’s not happening.

What does the UK industry look like to you now, in comparison to when you first left it for the States?

It hasn’t changed, not a jot. There’s still no Black superstar. Until there is a Black British superstar that everyone in the building gets behind, in the same way that they’ve done with Ed Sheeran, Adele, Dua Lipa, then there is no change.

I see the way Polydor are developing Holly Humberstone, for instance. It’s a slow-burn commitment. She performed that BRITs, when most people haven’t heard of her. Polydor can see the talent, I can see the talent. I’m not knocking it. But it’s talent that they can relate to, and that the English public can relate to. And most of the English public doesn’t look like you and I, right?

So, why wouldn’t you put people in place that look like you and I to help

develop the amazing amount of talent that’s in the country, to help you make money and build the reputation of your brand?

It’s all there for you. But no, they just sign them all, give them a single or twosingle deal, take the revenue and keep it moving. Because they know there’s another 50 going to come through the door tomorrow. And they’ll do the same with them. They have no intention of developing any of these acts, no intention.

Tell us more about what you’re currently doing.

When I was at Atlantic, in around 2012, I was approached by Blueprint Management, who at the time, were managing Drake, Kanye, Nicki Minaj, Jill Scott, The Roots, Lil Wayne and a bunch of others. They wanted me to come and work for them and oversee international market development.

My contract was nearly up, so I told my bosses I was going to leave. They said no, we’ve got this kid Bruno Mars,

we’ve got to finish off this project, it’s very important to the company. So I said okay.

They made me feel wanted, money, blah, blah, blah, and then they gave me the flexibility in my contract to start my own management company, which is what I wanted my next phase to be.

At the end of the next contract, I said, ‘Listen, I can’t stay, I’ve really got to maximise my potential and get out.’ So I left.

And what I did, to make sure that I was protected, was I created two companies. One was SevenGrand Management, for the artists, and one was SevenGrand Entertainment, through which I offer services to labels to consult on global projects. And that’s what I’ve been doing ever since.

I did some work for Kevin Liles over at 300, working with Megan Thee Stallion, Migos, Famous Dex. I worked with a bunch of acts over at Empire as a consultant; I’ve rolled through it.

And then in 2019 Jay-Z came back to me and I started consulting for Roc

Lil Wayne Bruno Mars

Nation, who have got an abundance of incredible acts. And then we all know what happened two months after that. We’ve only just recovered: festivals started last summer, budgets are back in place, 2023, boom, we’re off.

I manage a couple of artists, a couple of songwriters and producers, I consult for a few labels. That’s been my journey.

You ever coming back to the UK? No, no, no, no. If I came back to the UK, it would be because Jason Iley, David Joseph or Tony Harlow said, ‘Listen, we need to take advantage of what’s happening in the community. We need you to be MD of this, we’re going to pay you this much money, we’re going to take care of you, we’re going to treat you like we’ve treated every other mainstream executive, because we think you can do a great job.’

And then I would maybe consider it. Because I really do believe that Black artists in the UK need expertise, they need an outlet, and they haven’t got it.

How would you like to see the music industry progress here in the next five to 10 years?

I want them to do exactly what I just said, to employ people of colour and put them in positions of power, strength and influence, right alongside their white counterparts. We’re not taking their place, we’re working together. Because I think we’ve proved ourselves, when we were given the opportunity, that we can really be effective.

Now, I’ve seen the twins [Alec and Alex Boateng] become the MDs of 0207 Def Jam, which is great. I’ve seen Riki [Bleau] and Glynn [Aikins] get a label deal at Sony

[for Since ‘93], which is great [Aikins has subsequently been named co-President of RCA UK]. I’ve seen Austin [Daboh] take the EVP job at Atlantic, great. Trenton [Harrison-Lewis] being given a senior role at ADA, fantastic.

But nowhere near enough; nowhere near enough. Because they need more expertise, they need more experience, they need more wrapped around them. They’re the right people, don’t get me wrong, but they need more.

I can’t tell you how many conversations I’ve had with the twins, trying to teach them, trying to show them. And they’ve

I’ll tell you a funny story. I was working on Busta Rhymes’ project, Pass The Courvoisier. The video had Mo’Nique in it, she was on fire back then. There’s a skit in the middle of the video, and at one point Mo’Nique stamps on Busta Rhymes’ toe.

One of the promo execs sat in a meeting and said, ‘Yeah, MTV won’t play it because they’ll see that as a violent act.’ To which my response was, ‘Hold on a minute, did I not just see a Westlife video where they were fighting in church?’ And the room went quiet. Simon Cowell was in that room, and he started laughing, saying, ‘Yes, absolutely David, you’re right.’

And let me tell you, Simon Cowell is not only an incredible executive who knows his lane, who wants to make money and be successful with what he knows, he is also a brilliant guy and he is a truth-teller. He doesn’t play that politics game.

been open-hearted and open-minded enough to come to me for advice. I’m trying to help them. They need that, you can’t be dropped in a situation and not be surrounded by the right support.

What’s your ultimate message to UK Black execs?

We’ve got to become more united as a community. You can’t do it on your own. Being given a job in a record company is great, but you ain’t gonna have success unless you’ve got the whole building behind you. Now, look around the building and let me know what the ratio is.

He was in the building for three years. I worked with him extensively, I learned a lot from him. And he was the one that spoke up and said, ‘You’re absolutely right to make that comparison.’ And remember, Westlife was his act.

That promotions exec held that against me, didn’t like me, didn’t like the fact that I was supporting Black culture, and that I would ask why a record wasn’t being played.

I could tell you loads of stories, crazy stories, about Usher along those lines, but we won in the end. Because even though some people didn’t believe in Usher, within a couple of years, he became one of the biggest stars in the world.

So it is possible. We just have to believe. And we have to work together and support each other. n

This interview is taken from a brilliant podcast series, Did Ya Know?, which tells the often unheard stories of key figures in the British music industry, focusing initially on pioneering executives of colour. The team behind the pod includes Stellar Songs co-founder Danny D and Decisive Management co-founder Adrian Sykes. MBUK and our sister brand, Music Business Worldwide, are proud to be partners and supporters of Did Ya Know? You can listen to it wherever you find your favourite podcasts.

“Align yourselves with people who can be the intermediary between yourselves and the monster that is the music industry.”

U2 VERSUS THE NOSTALGIA YIELD

I have no interest in, or enthusiasm for, the music of U2; but I remain endlessly fascinated by the business of U2.

Before you try and race ahead of me, this is not about their ‘jazz’ approach to taxation. That’s a whole other debate and probably one I should seek legal advice on before writing.

U2 became the biggest band in the world by slogging away. There’s a, possibly apocryphal, story that manager Paul McGuinness would forensically analyse their ticket sales on every US tour as they were building in the early 1980s, pinpointing the cities with the lowest attendance numbers and doubling down on them on the next tour, forcing them to capitulate. It absolutely worked. There are many things to dislike about U2, but they had a hell of a work ethic.

Tied up in this endless pressing of their shoulders to the wheel was the bold proclamation that they never wanted to be a nostalgia turn, that every tour was heavily and carefully built around a new album rather than coasting along by lazily playing the hits. The path they chose was very different to the one The Rolling Stones have spent the past five decades on.

Something, however, has shifted.

Late last year, Bono published his memoirs and conducted a series of talks/performances in grand theatres around North America and Europe, with a New York residency booked in for April and May this year where he will delve into his past.

Their next album, the appositely titled Songs Of Surrender, is due next month and on it they ‘reimagine’ 40 of their old songs. This is not a Swiftian power play to take control of their masters. The few tracks they have released already suggest this could be a boldly satirical comment on the futility of nostalgia, running a box cutter over the canvas of memory. Or they could just be… a bit rubbish, the sound of a band running out of energy and enthusiasm.

The news of their Las Vegas residency, announced during an eye-wateringly expensive

TV ad shown during the Super Bowl and based around 1991’s Achtung Baby album, comes off the back of their last tour in 2017/2019 where they played 1987’s The Joshua Tree in order. (They came up with some threadbare argument back then that the album had found a new cultural and political relevance or something. They even said this with straight faces. Such chutzpah.)

This time, however, founding member Larry Mullen Jr will not drum with the band as he’s recovering from surgery. One can only imagine that the unavailability of John ‘Stumpy’ Pepys, Eric ‘Stumpy Joe’ Childs, Mick Shrimpton and Scott ‘Skippy’ Scuffleton was a cause for consternation. One can also imagine Jimmie Nicol sitting by his phone willing it to ring.

All of this means that, after decades of fighting it and trying to dance around it, U2 have finally given in to what I am going to term The Nostalgia Yield.

This is a yielding in both senses of the word. The first definition is that of yielding a bountiful harvest of a) attention and b) cash. The second definition lies in acceding to wider arguments, demands or pressures. In this case, yielding to the prevailing notion that your best years are far behind you.

U2 are a band who certainly do not need the money and are in a luxurious position whereby they don’t have to do things purely for the money. But they, to reapply a phrase first levelled at Mick Jagger when the Stones became a nostalgia juggernaut, have never seen a dollar bill they didn’t like. Being in a position to not need the money means that, when you do grab the money, there’s a huge amount of it to grab.

We can see the exact same thing happening with Madonna. In 2019 and 2020, the last time she toured, she was playing purposefully small venues – well, small for Madonna – and leaning heavily on her shrug of an album, Madame X

At the start of this year, she announced her Celebration tour of pretty much every major city in North America and Europe, stressing that it was going to be about the hits across

Eamonn Forde says that U2’s announcement of an Achtung Baby-based Las Vegas residency is an inevitable (and overdue) acceptance of the decay of relevancy married to the staying power of cold hard cash…

“Musicians get tired. Life takes over. Humility might even enter the picture.”

four decades. Presumably she means the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and 2010s, thereby heading off at the pass any notion that she’s going to lump in songs from a new album. If that is the case, this will be the first tour she’s done that is not tied to a new album.

The video she posted online announcing the tour was at pains to point out that it would very much be about, as Amy Schumer delicately put it, her “greatest motherfuckin’ hits”.

Acts can try and fight it, try and feel like they are still relevant, deluding themselves that the world still wants new music from them (spoiler: it almost always doesn’t). But there comes a point where the corporation that is a hugely successful act must understand that putting out new music is an exercise in diminishing returns – both commercially and creatively – and accept that they are now part of the nostalgia circuit.

U2 may not have been as explicit as Madonna, but they are firmly in the tractor beam of The Nostalgia Yield. The signs of this all becoming an inevitability were there long before they went back to aggressively shake the Joshua Money Tree on tour six years ago.

If we want to put an exact timestamp on it, we can say it started on 9 September 2014. Doing a deal with Apple to catapult a copy of Songs Of Innocence into every iTunes account in the world was the precise moment U2 admitted they could no longer compete, in recorded music terms at least, as The Biggest Band In The World™. They could spin this as much as they wanted about it being the U2 album that had the biggest reach ever, getting to hundreds of millions of listeners as opposed to the tens of millions of sales The Joshua Tree and Achtung Baby racked up. But they, and we, knew the truth.

It quickly proved a rude awakening for U2 and Apple that, no, the best things in life are not always free and stood as proof, amid the rising volume of cries for a technical solution to zap it from iTunes libraries around the world, that you literally couldn’t give a new U2 album away.

Think of the knock their collective ego took in that moment – that what they believed was a digital bouquet was actually received by listeners like a digital beating. They knew they could not punch above their weight in the ‘normal’ charts, but thought that an act of altruism would be welcomed by all. A free U2 album in 2014 felt as relevant and as vital as a free Glenn Miller wax cylinder.

‘Sister’ album Songs Of Experience followed in 2017. It was not given away on iTunes. To date, it’s the last album of new songs they have put out. The thrill of the new for U2 is now massively divorced from the thrill of the new for everyone else.

No matter what they or their apologists insist, they are now a full nostalgia machine. Never before has a major band jackknifed so violently and suddenly into outright nostalgia.

It is long overdue. To be brutally honest, no young person in a band today wants to be U2. They are a cultural anachronism. It’s only U2 themselves who are the last ones to realise this.  Actually, there is one young person in a band who does want to be U2. But there’s something oddly familiar about that singer in Inhaler…

Normally I would never recommend that anyone draw their influences from U2, but in this instance a lot more acts out there need to stop thinking they are immune from The Nostalgia Yield.

There is, of course, no shame in being creatively felled by it. Musicians get tired. Life takes over. Humility might even enter the picture.

The path of least resistance does not always have to be the worst option for creative people. Eventually they all have to make peace with the fact that the last time they found themselves in regular touching distance of the zeitgeist was long before they found themselves in regular touching distance of the hair dye.

U2, pictured in 2017, recently confirmed they will perform the first-ever concert at Las Vegas’ MSG Sphere this autumn – a live re-working of their classic 1991 album, Achtung Baby

“No matter what they or their apologists insist, they are now a full nostalgia machine.”

Photo: Debby Wong / Shutterstock

5

Numbers you need to know

Music’s big money M&A bonanza appeared to wind down in the second half of 2022 as interest rates rose and investment activity slowed. That all changed in the first month of the new year, however, with news of some sizeable deals across both catalogue and company acquisitions. There were a few other eye-opening stats in Q1, too. Here they are…

60 million:

BandLab’s growing creator community

Singapore-headquartered music creation platform BandLab confirmed to MBUK sister publication MBW that it now boasts over 60 million registered creators on its service, up from the 50 million milestone that it surpassed in June 2022. That growth is significant: it means that the platform added around 10 million creators to its platform in little over six months – having already added 20 million in the 15 months between March 2021 and June 2022. To put that 60 million into perspective within the wider music industry landscape, at the end of 2021, Spotify played host to recordings from ‘just’ 11 million creators according to its CEO Daniel Ek – a number that was up by three million year-on-year.

BandLab CEO Meng Ru Kuok

BandLab: Confirmed milestones of total registered creators on its platform (m)

Source: BandLab announcements / BBC News (2020 stat)

$600 million:

HYBE, the K-Pop giant behind superstars BTS, struck two deals in the same week in February that saw the company spend over $600 million on M&A. The first of those deals arrived via HYBE America, led by CEO Scooter Braun, agreeing to acquire Atlanta rap powerhouse QC Media Holdings, aka Quality Control, home to acts such as Lil Baby, Migos, Lil Yachty and City Girls. The deal was valued at approximately $300 million in stock and cash. The second ninefigure deal for HYBE that same week was for a 14.8% stake in K-Pop rival SM Entertainment, acquired from its founder Lee Soo Man, in a deal worth 422.8 billion South Korean won (approx. $334.5 million).

HYBE’s nine-figure week

€1 billion: Believe’s ten-figure year

Paris-based music distribution and services company Believe recently reported that it surpassed the milestone of €1 billion in digital music sales (DMS) for 2022. DMS, says Believe, represents the revenue generated from its digital store partners and social media platforms before royalty payment to artists and labels. Commenting on the 10-figure milestone, Denis Ladegaillerie, Believe’s Founder & CEO, said at the time that, “It is a tribute to the strength and passion of our two hearts: our artists, at all stages of their career, who create vibrant music that fans connect to and are inspired by, and our people, who put their digital expertise and technology at their service with respect, fairness and transparency.”

Photo: HYBE AMERICA

Denis Ladegaillerie

L-R: HYBE Chairman Bang Si-Hyuk, QC CEO Pierre “P” Thomas, QC COO Kevin “Coach K” Lee, and HYBE America CEO Scooter Braun

$200 million: Justin Bieber’s big pay day

In January, we learned that superstar pop artist Justin Bieber had agreed to sell a career-spanning catalogue to Blackstone-backed Hipgnosis Song Management (HSM) in a nine-figure deal. Hipgnosis announced that HSM had agreed a deal to acquire Bieber’s “100% interest in his publishing copyrights (including the writer’s share of performance), master recordings and neighbouring rights for Bieber’s entire back catalogue, comprising over 290 titles released before December 31, 2021″. Universal Music Group continues to own the master recordings of Bieber’s back catalogue; it appears that Hipgnosis will now receive Bieber’s artist royalty stream on those masters. UMPG will continue to administer Bieber’s publishing. Commenting on the deal at the time, Merck Mercuriadis, Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Hipgnosis Song Management, said: “The impact of Justin Bieber on global culture over the last 14 years has truly been remarkable.” The Wall Street Journal reported in December that the Hipgnosis/ Bieber deal would be worth around $200 million.

75%: The majors’ (and Merlin’s) Spotify market share

We also learned this quarter that the four ‘major’ recorded music companies – which in this instance means Universal Music, Sony Music, and Warner Music, plus indie collective Merlin – have cumulatively lost 12% of market share on Spotify over the past five years. That stat came to light in Spotify’s annual investor report, which revealed that 75% of plays of music tracks on its platform in 2022 were distributed by the ‘big three’ majors or a Merlin member. That

means, of course, that a quarter (25%) of music streams on Spotify in 2022 were distributed by companies who were not affiliated with the majors or Merlin. Said companies include the likes of TuneCore (and its parent, Believe), plus UnitedMasters, and certain other distribution platforms for independent (or ‘self-releasing’) artists. The majors-plus-Merlin market share of all streams on Spotify was as high as 87% in 2017, according to previous Spotify fiscal reports.

Combined distribution market share of annual Spotify music streams for Universal Music, Sony Music, Warner Music, and Merlin (%)

Merck Mercuriadis

Source: Spotify annual fiscal reports

Ademosu

You’re about to hear a lot more from… Samuel

The first rule of Flight Club is… yeah, you can forget that. Because plenty of people are talking about the management (+ publishing + records) company that is home to a roster of writers and producers that have worked with artists from Wizkid to Beyoncé – and the volume’s only going one way.

The Flight Club was founded by Samuel Ademosu 10 years ago, initially more as a modest favour to a friend than a multifaceted music biz powerhouse. And, whilst it was and is very much his baby, a UK exec who’s already made a lot of noise in his own right played a role of significant midwifery.

Ademosu recalls: “I had a friend who was a songwriter/artist [J Warner, still a client]. I thought he was amazing and I said I’d help him find a manager. But I didn’t know where to start, so I did some research, found some names, some email addresses and started reaching out.

“One of the people I got a reply from was an A&R at Island. I remember going to meet him, sitting in the Universal reception for the first time and seeing all those screens and videos and the names of all the labels; it was kind of mind-blowing to be honest.

“I go in, completely green, talking about my friend and asking if this A&R guy could help me find a manager. He listened to me and said, ‘I think you should be his manager’. I was like, ‘What? What are you talking about?!’ I was quite offended! ‘I’ve come all this way…’ [laughs].

“But he said, ‘No, the passion you have, the way you speak about this artist… I could help you find a manager who has other clients making them a million pounds a year, and your guy’s going to be an afterthought. You’ve got the bandwidth, why don’t you do it?’

“That was [Dave co-manager] Benny Scarrs. And, looking back, I totally get what he was saying. He was telling me that

my passion and belief would do more for this artist than anything else; that those were the most important ingredients and I already had them.

“Maybe seven or eight years later I saw him in a studio and he said, ‘Explain to me how you got from that day in my office to here!’. We had a good laugh about it.”

Part of that journey from there to here was the decision to not just manage a friend, but form a company, The Flight Club, and establish a roster, concentrating initially on writers and producers. One of his earliest signings was P2J, who has gone on to work with Beyoncé, Wizkid and others.

Looking back, Ademosu says he always planned to create “an entity, a hub of creatives

But we also believe that, if you’re good at what you do, whatever it is, then there should and will be fair financial gain at the end of the tunnel. When you’re really good at what you do, there always is – in the end.

It’s the same principle here. Not trying to make it too Kumbaya, but for the first 70% of our existence we made zero money. It’s only really been in the last few years that we can call it an actual business. Before then, it was run on passion.

When I started, I didn’t know anybody. People think I must have had contacts or a network, but the only person I got any advice from was Dumi Oburota, who created Disturbing London, because he’s from around where I’m from. He inspired me a lot.

So how did you go about extending your network and getting through the door?

to put behind artists who rely on us”, and build a brand to emulate the three labels he most admires – Motown, Def Jam and XL.

From its base in South East London, The Flight Club hasn’t yet reached the levels of Ademosu’s holy trinity, but it has been involved in hits around the world, expanded into records and publishing (including a JV with Warner Chappell) and, 10 years after take-off, it’s still gaining altitude with attitude.

What would you say were the founding philosophies and core principles of the company?

We are artist-centric. We are here to facilitate whatever our clients’ dreams are. And we are purists, not in the sense of being snobs, but in the sense that art comes first and business second.

Number one was developing talent. Make sure our clients are exceptional at what they do. So I’m not trying to sell them via a conversation; I’ve got proof.

Some artists think a manager’s job is to make them famous. At Flight Cub, I tell everyone very early on: me and you, we’re your manager, both of us manage you, in partnership. And if one of us in that transaction is making it difficult for the other one, there’s an issue.

Then, how we managed to actually grow was by taking a series of risks. We would go to Atlanta, New York and LA without knowing anyone, just looking for opportunities.

A lot of people told us we were wasting our time. And, to be honest, we might have been, that might have turned out to be true, but we did it so many times… I don’t know, the sheer determination of it, just the brazenness of it… We were knocking on doors.

The Flight Club is a London-based management company that has been involved with some of the most interesting and successful artists and projects of the last few years. Founder Samuel Ademosu explains why the sky’s the limit…

“This isn’t a scratch card, it’s your cue to start working harder than ever before.”

And the reason we went to those places is because we weren’t really getting many opportunities here. There was a specific sound coming out of the UK urban scene at the time, and if you weren’t doing that, you couldn’t get a foot in the door.

What would you highlight as the most important projects so far in terms of moving you up levels?

I would say there have been three: GoldLink, Diaspora [2019]. My guys exec produced that, and even us as managers, we were very handson with that. That project let people know that some guys from the UK could produce a project from start to finish and create a sound for an artist.

No. 2 would be Beyoncé, The Gift [2019]. Working so closely with Shani Gonzales [MD, Warner Chappell UK] and Steve Carless, who was Beyonce’s head of A&R, we got to learn a lot.

Working on projects with artists of that size, it’s very different, you get to see how forensic they are about the music, how they operate.

That opened so many doors – of course it did, it’s Beyoncé. But at the same time,

And the third would be Wizkid, Made In Lagos [2020]. That opened an untold amount of doors. But, more than that, it proved to us that our stubbornness, our determination and our will can always find a way.

There’s no boundary to what you can do. We didn’t think that we’d be working with some of the biggest artists in the world, or having meaningful discussions with some of the biggest label presidents around about the direction of a project or single choices, and them caring about what we have to say, but that’s where we are.

it’s Beyoncé, attached to Disney, attached to Columbia, working with a film and a franchise that we’ve all grown up on. And it also heavily featured a sound that America hadn’t really taken into its psyche at that point, Afrobeats.

It’s come about because of some form of success, of course, because people believe in you more when you’ve done it. But you’ve got to do it first.

Starting out in the UK, how difficult was it to get international opportunities for producers and writers?

“Working with artists of that size, you get to see how forensic they are about the music.”

I wouldn’t say it’s easy. But everybody is looking for what’s next. It doesn’t matter how big you’ve been, or how big you are, you’re gonna be looking for what’s next. And that allows for opportunity.

There’s luck, as well – being in the right place at the right time, meeting the right person at the time. I don’t know if that’s luck, but whatever it is, you have to make the most of it when it happens.

Everyone knows the world has got smaller over the last 20 years, but I think, alongside that, people are more inquisitive now. People used to reject things more quickly, be that because of race, social class or where someone’s from, but now I think those things have become blurred.

People from very different backgrounds and social standings are all listening to all different types of music. Yes, at a show or a festival, you have standing tickets, executive boxes, VIP areas, etc.  But everybody is still basically in the same place to see the same show and hear the same music. It’s a new type of energy and a new way of doing things.

Before, as a writer or producer, and I know this is an exaggeration, but if you didn’t have 40 years of No.1s behind you, you weren’t getting a chance with big artists. Now, someone can make something in their bedroom, send it out into the universe and it can take them anywhere.

Do you have plans to open offices in the US and beyond?

We definitely want to be in LA or New York, and I’d love to do something in West Africa. But that will be when the time is right and when it is necessary. It’s not something that we’re desperate to do just because.

You mentioned your expansion into records and publishing, part of that is being done in conjunction with Warner Chappell. What can you tell us about how that’s going?

Oh, wow, I’m so excited about this. We announced a JV with Warner Chappell last year, Flight Mode, working with Shani Gonzales and [Head of A&R] Amber Davis. We have an amazing relationship with them because they do publishing the way that it should be done – because they care.

A lot of artists and managers – everyone, really – bashes the majors. It’s quite easy to say, ‘My label didn’t do this, my publisher didn’t do that’. But our view is, if somebody puts a cheque in front of you, sometimes that’s enough. Let’s not dismiss that.

That’s somebody believing in you and funding you to pursue your dreams. It’s not, ‘Here’s a cheque. Oh, and here’s every opportunity under the sun as well.’ You’ve got to work; we want to work.

Whenever any of my clients have signed a deal, I’ve always given them all the same speech: this is the equivalent of you getting your apron at a supermarket on your first day; it’s time for you to start your shift.

This isn’t a scratch card, or a jackpot; it’s your cue to start working harder than ever.

What do you especially like and admire about the way Warner Chappell approach publishing in general and working with you in particular?

There’s a human touch. We discuss things, in real life, it’s not just an email: do you want to do this session? It’s much more a case of, we’ve identified these four things that can actually help your client, let’s all talk them through together.

Every single person that is creating music in the world, every writer and producer, wants to work with the biggest artists in the world. But why should they choose you? What’s the strategy? That’s what we talk to Warner about. So, maybe they already publish a certain artist’s favourite writers, well why don’t you start writing with them? Let’s get you on the radar, maybe you’ll get noticed… You’d be surprised how often that leads to a long-lasting relationship.

They’re honest as well. A lot of the deals that I signed in my youth, we were told certain things that weren’t realistic. I decided very early, on the other side of the table, as a publisher or manager, I would never do that. I would never say something

Lilah

to close a deal. If I don’t win a deal based on the truth then it wasn’t for me.

What are your plans on the record side of things?

We are actively signing things, we’ve put out a few projects and we’re really excited by that side of things. There’s a bit of doom and gloom around the records side of things at the moment, but I think what we have to do is genuinely be creative around how we deliver music.

Because we are on the ground, we feel the texture and the temperature of what’s actually happening at street level – and that’s our selling point.

We’re not saying we’re going to be the biggest and best label ever known to man, but we do have an energy that can match up with things that are happening and coming up.

We speak their language, we know the pressures they go through, we know the financial issues that they might be going through. We know how hard it is to get your ideas out when you don’t really have that many resources.

So, because we’ve lived that life, as a label it puts us in a good position to be able to help navigate the artists we sign.

Back on the management side, are you still looking to make signings?

We will always be in amongst it. But as you get older as a company, you tend to refine your remit and get a better understanding of what your role is in the marketplace. It has to be defined better.

For some companies, that might be different, they maybe just want what’s hot, or they just want to be in the game for the sake of it.

But for us, I feel like we’ve done over the 10,000 hours, and we’ve perfected our strategy for any given client or any given situation.

If somebody is coming into our system, they will get a unique, bespoke service. We can’t instantly plug and play with someone. And similarly, if we think a client is best suited elsewhere, we’re not gonna battle for them. It’s not a market share thing for us.

What can you tell us about some of the projects you have coming up this year?

I feel like this is going to be one of the biggest years we’ve ever had, and that’s saying a lot, coming off the last three years, which have been pretty monumental.

The things that are being planned this year are going to be as big if not bigger. Even though I can’t say anything too specific, I do feel like a lot of people are going to have a lot of music to enjoy this summer.

What’s the most important lesson you’ve learned on your journey so far?

That the music element is not the most important part; it’s the people, the psychological element. Managing a creative’s art is very different to managing a creative’s heart and mind, and I think that part has to be focused on more.

Because the art part is subjective. I can critique them from morning to night, which I used to do, even telling them

something was no good, and they used to get really annoyed [laughs]. But I could be wrong, they could put it out and a million people might decide they were right and I was wrong.

So, for me, managing them in order to put them in the best possible position to create whatever they want to create is actually the most important thing; that’s number one.

I’d say the second thing is, as a manager, everyone says you’ve got to have loads of links and contacts. But The Flight Club has grown to where we are quite quietly; a lot of people still don’t even know what we look like.

So, I would say you don’t need loads of links, you need drive, passion and you need to do a lot of research. One thing I see from a lot of younger people who ask me for advice is that they don’t research.

Like, everything you’re asking me about is actually out there. I know you want

JayO

to hear it from someone who you think has done it, but… Listen, I still research constantly now, I look at what other people are doing, what they’re achieving and how they’re doing it. I look at what people did 20, 30 years ago and see what I can learn from that; always be a student.

What’s been your proudest moment so far?

The Gift coming out was a proud moment. And the Wizkid show at Madison Square Garden last year, just watching the crowd react to the work of my producers and writers.

Obviously you see numbers on Apple and Spotify, but to see people actually singing their hearts out to music and lyrics that we were scrutinizing for hours and hours, day after day, month after month. That album was two years in the making, and to see people react like that…

The other thing I’m proud of is my team, because most of the people we’ve hired at this company have not come from labels or another management company. We’ve learned everything on the job together.

Now, watching them manage artists, sign deals and deliver amazing content.

companies and I see the interns or the new A&R guys, I always want to ask, ‘How did you get here? How do you even know about these jobs?’ Because to me it seemed impossible. That’s why I started the company.

What’s the one thing you would change about the business? I would spend more time nurturing things. That is our USP, but because this business moves so fast, and there’s so much money on the table, it’s harder to spend as much time as I would like in development.

That’s something I learned and was able to pass on and then watch them go out and do it for themselves.

That’s important to me, because even now, when I go to labels or other

I would love to go back to the old days of development, where you actually physically worked with an artist to get them into their best possible shape for as long as it takes. People are thrown away so quickly now, and I would like to change that. n

“I look at what people did 20 years ago and see what I can learn; always be a student.”

Ari PenSmith

Photo: Joseph Eley

‘RECORD COMPANIES STILL HAVE AN IMPORTANT ROLE TO PLAY IF THEY REPOSITION THEMSELVES IN THE RIGHT WAY’

Jeremy Lascelles had spent so long at the top of the music industry mountain that he decided it was about time he visited the valley below. Specifically, the Napa Valley.

In 2010, after Chrysalis Music, the publishing company where he had been CEO, was sold to BMG, he found himself out of work and – after a lifetime in an industry that appeared to be in a terminal, piracy-induced tailspin – contemplating doing something else for the first time.

“The last year at Chrysalis had been quite tough,” he says. “I really needed a break. It was the first time I hadn’t worked since I was 17. And I did think, time to do something different.”

A big football and cricket fan, he thought about a move into sport (“But they’re actually very scuzzy businesses – football makes the music industry look pristine and saintly!”), before deciding importing wine could be the future.

“I’m a passionate wine collector and I developed a real interest in Californian wines from my frequent trips to LA,” he smiles. “There were all these stunning wines that weren’t very available in the UK. I’d imagined I’d just be tasting wine and selling it, but I realised I’d spend most of the time filling in paperwork, dealing with customs and all sorts of shit.”

So – having reconnected with his old vinyl collection while free from the constant work pressure to listen to nothing but new music – he decided to stick to what he knows best.

“I realised I actually know quite a lot about this stuff,” Lascelles says, with trademark self-deprecation. “I’ve been quite successful, I’m quite good at it and I had this idea for something else I could do…”

That ‘something else’ was Blue Raincoat Music. Launched in 2014 alongside co-founder and legendary producer, the newly knighted Sir Robin Millar (“He’s still just Robin to me!” quips Lascelles), as an artist management company, it has since added a publishing division (Blue Raincoat Songs), bought the legendary

After flirting with the idea of leaving the business just over a decade ago, veteran exec Jeremy Lascelles is now well and truly enjoying life as the co-founder of management/records/ publishing company, Blue Raincoat…

Chrysalis Records catalogue and relaunched Chrysalis as a frontline label. It partnered with Reservoir in 2019, giving it access to plenty of investment capital. And everything’s going according to plan: Millar recently found the pair’s original business proposal and discovered they had achieved “90% of what we set out to do”.

So, no wonder that visiting the Blue Raincoat office in the heart of Shoreditch is a throwback to the days when music HQs would buzz with excited talk of new artists, and executives would eagerly press records – actual records – into your hands with the zeal of true believers.

And there is a lot to be excited about at BRM right now. On the management side – which brings independent managers and their clients under the Blue Raincoat Artists umbrella, as well as developing acts and managers inhouse – new acts such as Nova Twins (managed by former VP of marketing, Rupert King) and The Mysterines (former SVP of marketing, John Leahy) are breaking through to join Arlo Parks (Ali Raymond), Phoebe Bridgers (Darin Harmon) and Cigarettes After Sex (Ed Harris) at the top of the alternative tree. And Lascelles himself is also returning to management, personally looking after

legendary rockers Skunk Anansie – who he published back in the 1990s – in partnership with Big Life Management’s Kat Kennedy, following the retirement of the band’s long-time manager, Leigh Johnson.

“It was delightful to reconnect with Skunk Anansie,” grins Lascelles. “They never got the credit that they deserved as trailblazers. Kat’s brilliant and totally up for it, so it’s all systems go…”

In publishing, Blue Raincoat represents everything from Self Esteem to the Nick Drake catalogue (a forthcoming Nick Drake tribute album with a stellar cast list is “a great example of how one part of the business can help the other,” according to Lascelles). And while the Chrysalis Records catalogue – home to The Specials, Ultravox and Suzi Quatro – ticks over very nicely, frontline artists such as Laura Marling, Emeli Sandé, The Wandering Hearts, William The Conqueror and brand-new signing Marika Hackman are building a bold new future.

And Lascelles, far from sitting with his feet up and a cheeky glass of Cabernet Sauvignon, is at the heart of it all. This was the “hybrid music company” he dreamed of launching and, following

“I’ve always been mindful of the fact that this business only exists because of the artists.”

Arlo Parks

Photo: Alex waespi

stints as an artist manager (his brother’s band, Global Village Trucking Company), a tour manager (Lou Reed, Curved Air), a label executive (Virgin Records) and a publisher (Chrysalis Music), in many ways this is the multi-tasking role he’s been warming up for since entering the industry as a naïve 17-year-old in 1972.

“I’m changing hats all the time and sometimes I have to remind myself – am I the manager, the record label or the publisher?” he chuckles. “Sometimes I’m more than one of those things! My finance people wanted to try and work out how much time I allocate to the different businesses, and I said, ‘I haven’t got a fucking clue! I just do it. I go where I need to be…’”

Thankfully, where he needs to be right now is holed up in his office, talking to MBUK. And it turns out that the wine business’ loss is very much the music industry’s gain…

What’s been the key moment on the Blue Raincoat journey?

When we bought Chrysalis Records in 2016. That was the moment when all the things I wanted to do, I could do. The original vision was always to own a catalogue.

When we started Blue Raincoat, we thought it was probably more likely we’d buy a publishing catalogue than a recorded music one. Now, I’m delighted it was the other way round, because things have changed.

When we started, streaming barely existed, we coincided with its explosion. So, buying Chrysalis was pivotal, because I had something of substance and could build the team I need to run a label, market a catalogue and provide services for all the things that are riskier: releasing new records, doing publishing deals for unknown artists, expanding our artist management business… You can do that if you’ve got the financial security blanket of a catalogue that is consistently doing well.

And that was always the plan. When you start a new business, you want to minimise the opportunities for sleepless nights.

So, is anything giving you sleepless nights at the moment?

Jet lag! No, when they come, they tend to be about specific projects that I’m so keen to get done that they get in the way. But for the most part, it’s been okay!

Does your experience of so many different music industry roles give you an edge in negotiations?

Well, it should do, shouldn’t it? When I make a deal, I always try to put myself in the position where, if I was on the other side of the negotiation, would it be fair? A good deal is one both parties feel positive about. A good deal isn’t one side screwing the other. Well, in the past maybe it would have been, but I never subscribed to that.

I’ve always been mindful of the fact this business only exists because of the artists, they are by far the most important element in the whole landscape and if we fuck them over, what are we doing? Our job is to take great music to an audience, not to try and be bigger or more powerful than the people making it.

Are artists in a better position now?

Yes, without any question. They’re less reliant on having to have a relationship with a third party like a record company. Because it’s absolutely possible to function independently. You can do it all on your own – it’s not always the best thing, but you can.

After the streaming debate, do labels need to change?

They have changed, but not enough. Record companies still have an important role to play if they reposition themselves in the right way.

They are still potential providers of important resources, of which money is one of the biggest; when you’re trying to break an artist, it’s very hard to do without access to capital. Record companies are big investors, they take a lot of risk and I’m a great believer in the risk-andreward ratio in any business deal.

It’s not unreasonable they should get a proper reward for the risk they take, but it’s got to be proportionate. They’ve got to stop thinking of themselves as lords and masters and think more like partners in their relationships with artists. It’s about a fairer distribution of money earned and a fairer way of dealing with rights ownership.

Lots of people have made the parallel: if you’ve paid off your mortgage, why do the mortgage company still own your house? At Chrysalis Records, we make deals we think are fair and balanced: give the artist a big chunk of the upside and they will get their rights back after a time.

We try and structure something that we would think was a good deal if we were the managers of that artist.

How does the relationship with Reservoir work?

It works very well, that’s the simple answer. They are extremely good partners, very supportive, they’ve given us investment of working capital and a global infrastructure to plug into. They’ve got a lot out of it and so have we.

Are you left to your own devices?

For the most part. They’re partners and investors, so it would be rude and irresponsible not to tell them what we’re up to, and we talk all the time. I don’t just spend money without talking to them. But it’s a very good working relationship.

Self Esteem

Photo: Olivia Richardson

You relaunched Chrysalis as a frontline label at the start of the pandemic, by rush-releasing Laura Marling’s Song For Our Daughter. How is the label working out?

[Laughs] That was an unusual way of relaunching Chrysalis! We basically did the opposite of everyone else and brought everything forward.

It was a bold step in how we presented and released the record. Management of a frontline record label is, I guess, where my true passions lie, but what I liked about relaunching Chrysalis was, I didn’t have to go, ‘Right, we’re a record company, we’ve got to feed the machine and put a record out every month’.

I can put out eight albums in a year or no albums in a year and it doesn’t matter, because my team works across everything. We can make decisions on what to sign based on merit, rather than a panic about what we have got next.

You’ve made some moves into the catalogue acquisitions market with Reservoir. What’s your view on that trend?

I’ve got mixed views on it, to be honest. It’s every artist’s prerogative to do what they think is right for them, and you understand if an artist gets to a certain age, does the maths, and realises they’re getting this amount of money now, considerably more than they’re

likely to earn in their lifetime. As a simple way to deal with your legacy and of capitalising what you’ve worked for, it makes sense. What worries me is that – and Reservoir is an exception to this, thank God – it’s not always music companies that are buying these assets. They’re going into the hands of big financial institutions who don’t really have a feel for the ups, downs and vagaries of the creative world.

They don’t do it because they love that third album, they just look at the numbers, which is not always the healthiest place for music assets to sit. Because these songs, these records, these artists, are not three-to-five-year things, they are here for our lifetime, the next generation’s lifetime and for ever.

They are part of the fabric of our existence as human beings on this planet. And the fact they’re now being overseen by people we wouldn’t even have thought about engaging with, venture capitalists and pension funds… If we’d had this conversation 25 years ago, we’d have thought you’d taken particularly strange drugs that day and you probably shouldn’t take them again!

What’s the proudest moment from your career so far?

It’s all about the artists, particularly when the odds are stacked

“People swear by algorithms, but they cause as many problems as they solve.”

Photo: Federica Burelli

Nova Twins

against you and people have told you, ‘This ain’t gonna happen’ –and then it does.

David Gray is the biggest, most obvious example. I signed his first record deal to Virgin and then left soon after we made the first album [A Century Ends, 1993]. And then, against the advice of my then-boss at Chrysalis Music, I signed his publishing in 1996, thinking this guy’s just so good, something’s going to happen.

I was told, ‘Don’t sign an artist who’s had three unsuccessful albums, don’t sign an artist you’ve signed before, what do you think you’re doing?’

He made White Ladder with some of our help financially and resource-wise, but it was a self-made, self-released record which, initially, no one was interested in putting out. The album’s now at eight-to-nine million sales.

That was definitely a nice moment, because I believe so strongly in Dave and his talent and I still think he’s one of the most underrated artists around.

You worked for Virgin and Chrysalis, two indie giants. Can Blue Raincoat achieve similar status?

No! We’re never going to be of that size and stature. And that’s not particularly the ambition – although, frankly, I don’t know what the ambition is! I didn’t set out to ‘conquer the world’; if you set yourself silly targets, it’s easy to fail. But we stand for something that I hope is recognised by the artistic community as being a good place to be creative and have a strong partnership with.

If you could change one thing about today’s music industry, right here and now, what would it be and why?

I always used to dislike the fact that there were a small number of gatekeepers that blessed you with their patronage and said, ‘Yes, I will allow you to have your record played on my radio station or stocked in my record stores’. That’s gone, but it’s been replaced by a different set of gatekeepers.

And I don’t like the fact that you’ve still got a system that basically says, ‘You fit, you don’t fit, you’re right for our playlist, you’re not’. People are often very narrow-minded in terms of the music they deem worthy of being exposed.

And people swear by algorithms, but they cause as many problems as they solve. I don’t like being told what someone who I don’t know thinks I should like. I love different music – I don’t like the same-old, same-old, generic, neatly packaged product.

You still seem very enthusiastic about the music business – or are you just really good at faking it?

[Laughs] It’s the latter – I hate every minute of it really! No, I’m one of the lucky people that earns a living out of my hobby and passion as a kid. I love the artists I work with, the company we’ve built and the people that are part of Blue Raincoat.

The day I stop enjoying it, I’ll stop – or it will tell me to stop. It would be nice if I decide, rather than it tells me, ‘Your time’s up Jeremy, piss off!’ But I’m genuinely enjoying it and feel more energised than at any stage of my life. n

Laura Marling Emeli Sandé

Photo: Ciaran Fredrick

Photo: Justin Tyler Close

Chris Jones and Sarah Pickering head up the sync department at Sony Music Publishing UK. Here, they offer a sector health-check, look back on their big Christmas hits, share their thoughts on that Kate Bush placement and outline their ambitions for the year ahead…

Every year a handful of music business stories break into the mainstream and become part of the grown-up/evening news/ Today programme agenda rather than the entertainment side bar.

It might be Adele-levels of success, a game-changing tech breakthrough, a controversy or, sadly, most often, the passing of another legendary artist.

Far more joyously, occasionally – okay, once and once only – it is the use of a 37-year-old track in a hit TV show that sends a semi-retired artist to No. 1 around

the world and introduces a whole new audience/generation to a genius.

Kate Bush’s Running Up That Hill, as seen in Netflix’s Stranger Things, was, without doubt, 2022’s crossover story and, more importantly, introduced millions of people to the back-catalogue of one of music’s unique talents. In doing so, it prompted the wider world to consider the nature, reach and power of sync in general.

Bush is signed to Sony Music Publishing, and it was that firm’s US team which struck the deal. The UK team, headed up by Chris Jones and Sarah Pickering

(universally known as ‘Pixie’), also had a stellar year, with songs in pretty much every high-profile Christmas TV ad and much more besides.

They took the sync reins at SMP two years ago – Jones as VP, Licensing; Pickering as VP, Creative.

Here, they discuss sync’s direction of travel, how they work with new artists, heritage artists (and each other) and their ambitions for this year and beyond.

What did your To Do list look like two years ago?

‘SYNC IN ALL FORMS CAN BE A GAME-CHANGER FOR ARTISTS’

Chris Jones: Tim Major and David Ventura (Sony Music Publishing UK coMDs) were both extremely supportive of me and Pixie when we took over, they said they’d back us in anything we wanted to do.

We certainly wanted to make sure that both the licensing and creative sides of the business were fully covered in all areas in terms of staff and resource. We wanted to grow the business and continue to deliver for our songwriters.

For example, TV licensing was really taking off at the time because of the growth of Netflix and Amazon, Disney, etc. coming into the market. There was more opportunity to grow there and we wanted to make sure we were poised to take advantage of that, so we hired in that area.

Sarah Pickering:  Personally, I really wanted to further strengthen the connections between departments, particularly A&R and catalogue. There’s a natural bond between sync and A&R and I wanted to develop those relationships.

How has the rise of the television streaming services changed the sync market?

CJ: It’s been huge for sync globally, and the UK has benefitted particularly from the new landscape. There have always been huge, worldwide TV shows, but in the past they were mainly US shows that came over here.

Now, with Netflix and Amazon, they’re producing content in local markets, which is then exported globally. We can license songs directly to the production companies making content for those platforms.

When I started doing TV licensing all those years ago, it was mainly things that fell outside the ITV and BBC blankets and Channel 4 and Channel 5 productions that were seen only in the UK. Now there’s frequent potential to license songs into a TV show that will be noticed worldwide. That’s a huge benefit to ourselves and our songwriters.

SP:  On a financial level, it’s an avenue for better fees, because it’s not blanket. But also, it’s creatively more exciting. The big [TV] streaming platforms are so hot on their music, it’s so important to them. As a result, the briefs that we’re getting for those platforms now are similar in detail that we would have got in an ad brief previously.

Anything that’s on Netflix, Amazon, etc., whereas music used to be something they would often leave little budget and time for, now it’s pivotal.

They are getting amazing directors and supervisors on board who love music and

CJ:  Probably the biggest change is simply that it’s more important than ever. When I started, it was very much seen as a secondary thing, and artists didn’t pay that much attention to it. Now, for new signings, it’s vital. A key sync can help break a song or an artist. When there’s new music on the way, writers, artists – and management – make sure they get it to us early so that we can start thinking about opportunities; they’re really switched on to that these days.

SP: I’ve seen it first-hand, how sync has either broken an artist, or just really, really helped them along the way.

We will always try to have meetings with artists and managers when they’re signed and establish what they are interested in when it comes to sync – and what they’re not keen on.

who are dedicated to finding the perfect soundtracks and finding the next great sync like ‘the Kate Bush moment’, because they all want the next Kate Bush moment…

If that’s the case, how open are they to discussion and suggestion?

SP: Most of the time there is more of a discussion, otherwise I probably wouldn’t have a job [laughs]. There are times when they know exactly what they want.

Other times, they’re looking for creative input: they might have an era they want, or a lyrical theme that they want. Sometimes they’ll want something that maybe no one’s heard of, or has been forgotten about.

When they want something very new, that gives us a lot more creative freedom to suggest ideas, because they probably won’t be aware of those opportunities. That’s when we work closely with the A&Rs and hopefully provide a new artist with what might be an important moment that they otherwise wouldn’t have had.

What role does sync play in breaking artists, and has that role changed over the years?

Back in the day, that might have been a much longer conversation. Artists would have outlined various things they don’t want to be associated with, be that adverts or video games etc.

I would say at least nine times out of 10, anybody we sign now is interested in all opportunities. That’s partly because of the promotional and economic benefits, but it’s also because they know that it’s going to be something great creatively. They also trust us to pitch things that will be interesting and appropriate to them.

And it’s absolutely not always a money thing. Years ago I used to reference Made In Chelsea, now Love Island is a perfect example: it’s not a massive money sync, but it is huge for recognition, and not even just for new artists; it can also re-ignite a classic song – as can the power of the cover.

Sync in all forms can be a game-changer for artists.

How has the perception of sync changed even within record companies within the last few years?

SP: It’s changed enormously. The importance of sync now is vast.

COVID also changed the picture, because it helped replace money that wasn’t being made on touring during that period.

As an example, it’s commonplace for some of us in the sync team to meet an

“Music used to be something they’d leave little budget and time for, now it’s pivotal.”

artist before we sign them now. Not always, but if they or their manager has said that sync is important to them, we will go into the meeting because they want to know somebody is going to be there working really hard to get them syncs, and that they’ve got a team behind them.

What have been the biggest changes during your time in the business?

SP: Probably the biggest one has been the proliferation of new platforms, be that NFTs or TikTok – and gaming has gone through the roof in the last few years.

There are also more in-depth artist tie-ins, it’s not always a straightforward sync deal now. There are brand partnerships, there are opportunities for bespoke sync work.

There’s much more involvement between our sync team, an agency, a supervisor, an A&R team; it’s a lot more inter-connected and project-based than ever before.

What did Running Up That Hill tell us about where sync’s at right now?

CJ: It certainly showcased the power of sync and what it can do for a catalogue on a global level.

We’re fortunate and very proud to publish Kate Bush, because of course everything starts with her talent and that song. And our US team takes the credit for the actual sync.

I think it was important that it was used throughout the season. There was one episode where it obviously featured prominently, and was central to the action, but it had already been heard a few times before then.

SP: I think fundamentally it reminded us about the power of a great song. I loved it because it was about showing a great song to a new generation.

It’s one of the reasons I love getting our artists to do covers. I know this wasn’t a cover, but it’s a similar principle: there’s someone watching a show who has never heard that song before, and probably never would if not for that sync. Then there are other people, a different generation, who are hearing it in a completely new way.

Everybody’s winning and either discovering or being reminded of a great song.

Thanks to this example in particular, there are now 15-year-olds who are going down a Kate Bush rabbit hole – and I can’t think of a much better result than that!

We’ve seen something similar with the Depeche Mode track, Never Let Me Down Again, covered by Jessica Mazin, which was used in the end credits of The Last Of Us. The reaction to that has been phenomenal and, again, it’s helped find a wider audience for a phenomenal song.

What’s the difference you bring as a department to your writers when it comes to winning competitive syncs?

SP: Our artists speak for themselves to a large extent. I love the SMP roster, and I couldn’t go in and fight for us if I didn’t love it and wasn’t passionate about it.

I also think the fact that we have such a diverse roster means there’s always conviction behind why we’re pitching. We’d rather pitch no music than the wrong music. But the make-up of our roster means we will always have something that we believe is perfect for pretty much any individual sync or situation.

Aside from that, I think clients know that we’re a close-knit team, we’re close to

the artists, their manager and their A&R, so they will always have someone that can act quickly and solve any issue.

They know that, when they come to us, they’re getting a whole service. Everybody’s going to communicate with them, they’re going to be able to get hold of people and get an answer quickly. From my experience with supervisors and agencies, that’s really important.

CJ: On the licensing side, it’s about getting the best value for that song and the best deal for our songwriter. It’s looking at what terms they want to license under, looking at how big that song is, evaluating all these different factors, then coming up with a number and negotiating hard, but fairly, with clients. It’s first and foremost all about getting the best deal for our songwriters and catalogues.

What do you see as the most important trends and biggest challenges in sync right now?

CJ: I think the biggest challenge is keeping the momentum going. We had an incredible 2022, one of the best years in sync that I can remember. We need to maintain the value of our songs.

The sync moment of last (or any?) year: Kate Bush’s Running Up That Hill as featured in Netflix’s Stranger Things

There’s obviously the risk of a global recession at some point this year, and if that happens, brands will spend less money, which could then affect us, so we need to find new areas of business.

SP: I think a continuing trend is going to be a new level of creativity in TV and games this year.

Musically, we’ve been seeing a lot more requests for UK hip-hop, which is great. Generally, the trends that are coming up in A&R, in terms of songs and artists, will inevitably cross over into sync.

Can you talk a bit about what made 2022 such a strong year for Sony Music Publishing in sync?

CJ: We had a really great Christmas for sure. We had shares in at least 15 of the big ads, mainly the supermarkets and department stores:

In the UK, holiday syncs have become a bit like the Super Bowl. All the brands and supermarkets try and outdo each other with the biggest ads, and music is almost always such a big part of those ads. Personally, the one I was most proud of was the John Lewis campaign. Obviously everyone

wants to get a sync on that particular ad, and it was a wonderful version of All The Small Things coupled with a beautiful film.

Credit obviously goes to Adam & Eve, the ad agency behind it, and also Leland Music, the supervisors. We control a third of that song, and we led the negotiations on it and got a really great result for the songwriters against some stiff competition from other publishers and labels who were all pitching.

for artists on Match of the Day or Love Island. That might not seem massive, but sometimes we know the artists are big fans of those programmes, or it means a lot in terms of their Shazam numbers.

They can really go a long way – and they’re the ones where you often get a personal thank you, which is always nice!

What are the headline ambitions?

SP: I was also really proud of the Yazoo/ McDonald’s/Becky Hill one, because we have a really close relationship with Becky, we worked on the cover [of Only You] and pitched it. It’s always nice when there’s a creative angle and not just a question of licensing something.

And there were a couple of really nice moments when we placed tracks

CJ: To continue to grow and find new avenues of business. About 18 months ago, for instance, we started licensing some songs into NFTs, which was interesting. And then, catalogue-wise, Sony has purchased some incredible catalogues over the last few years, like Bruce Springsteen and Paul Simon, and there is definitely some untapped potential in the UK there as far as sync is concerned; it will be amazing to find some opportunities for those incredible songs.

SP: Quite simply, to stay on top of our game and continue to obtain more and more opportunities for songwriters and artists. We’re signing such great stuff, new artists and catalogues, and that motivates us to try and get them on as much as we possibly can.

n

“In the UK, holiday syncs have become a bit like the Super Bowl.”

Sainsbury’s Christmas ad featured Wheatus’ Teenage Dirtbag, written by Brendan B. Brown

‘THERE’S EVIDENCE OF A CULTURE OF SHAME IN THE MUSIC BUSINESS AROUND THE REALITIES OF HAVING CHILDREN’

Sex, drugs, rock n roll and… babies. There’s an obvious reason why parenting and working in the music industry hasn’t, historically, gone hand in hand. Heading to the Groucho for a wild night with a baby in tow wouldn’t go down well for anyone involved, past the initial novelty hour. Dated cliches aside, it’s still true that music is a business that idealises (middle) youth, hustle culture and environments that are often not suitable for children.

Yet, lots of parents work in the music industry. In UK Music’s latest diversity report, 29.7% of respondents were parents and carers. It’s no surprise that they are under-represented when compared to the UK working population, of which 44% have caring responsibilities. Still, almost 30% is a sizeable amount of people that deserve to be included in the equality and diversity discussion. Much of that has focused on gender and race in recent years and the next priority, I’d argue, should be parents.

Firstly, it’s an important factor when it comes to retaining female talent. The 68% of respondents to the UK Music survey who had no care responsibilities were majority female, pointing to a loss of female talent when they become mothers or carers. This also might be one of the reasons why more young women are accessing the industry at an early stage but start to leave in their mid-forties. Women are well represented in the 35-44 age category (53.0%) but the 45-54 age bracket (44.3%) is the point at which female representation starts to drop.

There’s no reason why women should be penalised for having children. They often become more efficient, adept at multitasking, thanks to the insatiable demands of a little human, and excellent at time-management skills. As top music manager Martha Earls

recently told MBUK’s sister publication MBW: “My two daughters make me better at my job because I am more compassionate and more patient with people. As soon as I had my eldest daughter, I started having to manage my time better and prioritise things better, it made me much higher functioning.”

Secondly, being able to spend time with their children, without stressing about the consequences, is likely to result in happier employees. Bringing up a child can be one of the most fulfilling journeys in life and infringing on that is only going to cause stress and resentment. Research says that happiness makes people more productive at work and it doesn’t take a scientific study to work out that loyalty breeds loyalty. The employer/employee relationship is two-way, after all. When it comes to the music business, having people working within it who truly understand the needs of families and parents brings a whole level of insight into an important consumer market.

Might parents need to go on maternity/ paternity leave, reduce working hours to parttime, work from home, leave early/start late and take unplanned days off? Yes. I don’t believe you can ‘have it all’ — the demands of having children come at a high physical and mental energy cost and something has to give – but there are plenty of ways of working around an employee having less time than before that don’t involve cutting them out of the workforce completely, or making them feel so bad for their change in circumstances that they leave ‘voluntarily’ (as we know happens to mothers in particular — according to research from Pregnant Then Screwed, 54,000 UK women a year lose their job for getting pregnant, while 390,000 working mums experience negative and potentially discriminatory treatment at work).

Rhian Jones considers the issues faced by parents – usually women – looking to continue careers in the music industry alongside raising a family. And what the business is doing (or not doing) to help…

“There’s no reason why women should be penalised for having children.”

Unfortunately, there’s evidence of a culture of shame in the music business around the realities of having children. In a recent poll I ran on social media, asking followers working in music if they’ve ever felt the need to hide parenting responsibilities for fear of being deemed less productive/reliable, 76% said yes. In an interview with Pollstar, music agent Natasha Gregory recalls speaking to fathers post-pandemic who were sad about having to go to gigs five nights a week again and miss out on the time they’d been enjoying with their children.

As she points out: “Why are you accepting what it was like before the pandemic? If you’ve realised this joy, why are you accepting that, suddenly, you’re not going to have it anymore? Why don’t you just speak to your boss and tell them how it needs to be? There’s this fear of opinions others are going to have about them actually taking the time out to be with their family more.”

The shame is two-pronged. As Gregory says, it can be difficult to find the courage to demand what you want and need. As a freelancer, I’ve often felt reluctant to be honest about difficulties in meeting short deadlines or having to miss stories and take time off due to childcare.

There’s a constant fear of losing work when a reliable income is more important than ever. (In my experience, I’m lucky to be able to say that when I have been honest, those I’m working for have been understanding and gracious.) On the other side of the coin, employers can play a key role in the culture of shame by having a complete lack of understanding and empathy for employees who need flexibility.

There are lots of other areas to work on beyond fostering an open conversation about the demands of parenting. Facilities are severely lacking, for one. At a recent music conference I went to, I left after less than an hour due to how baby-unfriendly it was. I’m not asking for a jungle gym — just one quiet room with perhaps some changing facilities and toys is all it would take to make a difference. This goes for workplaces, too, and I know festivals and venues are similarly lacking. Child-friendly spaces are essential in trying to alleviate the extortionate costs of childcare, which is yet another factor forcing parents (often women, again) out of work.

While Sony deserves applause for launching its childcare initiative, which contributes to the cost of childcare during working hours, I’d go

one step further and say the arrival of nurseries in workplaces would be even better. Especially when children are young, it can be unbearably heart-breaking to have to create distance before they, and the parent, are ready. Being able to take them to work with you, however, while actually getting stuff done, would be a game-changer for many (if the cost of it was affordable, of course).

It’s encouraging that in a recent interview with MBW, Jacqueline Saturn, President of UMG’s Virgin Music Label & Artist Services, said the idea of what it takes to be a music executive is evolving. “It used to be the guys running the business and they had families, but it didn’t affect them because they were the ones in charge. Now you have women that have partners, children, dogs and cats and people they have to take care of, and it’s OK.”

Evidence suggests, however, that the business surrounding the people isn’t yet adequately equipped to support that evolution. How long will it take to get there?

Martha Earls

Photo: Angelea Presti

Sarah Jones loves live music so much, she even got engaged at a gig. As Prince returned for the encore during his legendary 2007 O2 residency and struck up the opening chords to Purple Rain, high up in one of the boxes, Jones – a huge fan of the Purple One – turned around to find her then-boyfriend, nowhusband down on one knee.

“I just couldn’t speak,” she laughs. “I was like, ‘How did you get that past me?’”

Even these days, she’s still an avid giggoer, and Jones – who was born in Wales but grew up in Essex – has no shortage of stories about how live music has been a key component in some of her life’s greatest moments.

She fizzes with enthusiasm for the experience, whether talking about her first ever gig (U2 at the old Cardiff Arms Park) or the most recent show she saw (Self Esteem at the O2 Forum Kentish Town); the classic rock gigs she’s taken her parents to in order to repay them for inspiring her love of music in the first place, or the time she held Eddie Vedder’s hand as he reached into the crowd at a Pearl Jam show.

“He had a bottle of red in one hand and my hand in the other,” she laughs. “Did he say anything to me? I think he was just like, ‘Let go of my hand!’”

And now, as General Manager of Songkick, the Warner Music Group-owned concert discovery service, she sees it as her mission to make sure the platform’s users never miss out on their own opportunity to enjoy similarly mind-blowing live music experiences.

“I do think live music changes lives,” she grins. “I don’t think there’s anything that

can match standing on that sticky floor with a warm pint in a plastic glass, sharing [the experience] with your mates.”

Fittingly for a former BBC executive –she spent 14 years at the corporation, most recently as Head of Digital & Operations, Business Development, having started her career as a media analyst with Ebiquity –she sees Songkick very much as a “public service”, helping to ensure punters don’t miss out on the gigs they want to see, while artists, venues and promoters get to reach everyone that might potentially enjoy what they do on stage.

2016, it reportedly sold nearly 500,000 tickets for Adele’s tour but, the following year, it became embroiled in an antitrust legal dispute with Ticketmaster.

That carried on separately after WMG bought the concert discovery part of the business in 2017 (Warner parent Access Industries had been an investor in the company). Live Nation/Ticketmaster eventually settled the case out of court, paying $110m and acquiring Songkick’s ticketing assets as part of the process.

Of course, that was all before Jones’ time (she joined Songkick as Commercial Director in 2018 before graduating to the top job last year) and she is understandably wary of the subject, keen to stress that Songkick works harmoniously in partnership with all primary ticketing companies, Ticketmaster included.

And it’s a service that the public seem to be embracing. Jones says Songkick now has over 20 million users around the world and reports a post-pandemic “significant surge in global users”, particularly in emerging markets, as demand for live entertainment spiked as soon as lockdowns lifted.

It has, however, taken a while for everyone to appreciate Songkick’s value. Launched in 2007 as a start-up concert discovery platform/social network by Ian Hogarth, Michelle You and Pete Smith, in its early years it often seemed to be a good idea in search of a viable business model.

It later merged with CrowdSurge and moved into direct-to-fan ticketing, pioneering anti-scalping technology. In

Similarly, while Songkick may be owned by Warner, Jones highlights that it is part of its WMX services division, removed from the recorded music and music publishing parts of the business, and works with artists signed to all record companies.

Jones has big plans to build on Songkick’s current position. She is proud to preside over an inclusive workplace culture, with a 50/50 gender staff split –almost unprecedented for a company with technology at its core.

An office refurb (Songkick is still based out in Shoreditch’s Silicon Roundabout enclave, although she’s travelled west to Warner Music HQ for today’s chat with MBUK) and rebrand are on the way, and she promises a relaunch of “our whole industry product set in the next year”, to capitalise on the success of Songkick’s

‘THERE CAN BE A LOT OF MYSTERY AND COMPLEXITY AROUND LIVE MUSIC AND I SEE OUR ROLE AS DEMYSTIFYING ALL OF THAT’

Songkick General Manager Sarah Jones traces the evolution of the Warner Music-owned concert discovery platform and shares her views on the importance and future direction of live music…

“It was unprecedented, but the pandemic taught us how important live music is.”

Tourbox tool, which helps artists, managers and agents manage and market their tour dates.

With the pandemic (hopefully) receding in the rear-view mirror, Jones believes Songkick has gone full circle to return to something close to a beefed-up version of its original concept.

“Three people wanted to solve a problem for fans [so they’d] never miss another show, so they started scraping the internet and created this product,” she says. “We’re really close to that DNA now. We’re getting to the hearts of audiences’ issues, really going back to that utility, but on a much bigger scale.”

Warner doesn’t break out separate figures for Songkick, but Jones insists the platform is now “a really stable, revenuegenerating business”.

She remains a little cagey on the details of exactly how Songkick makes that money (essentially a mix of advertising, monetisation of its B2B products and commission on ticket sales through third party vendors). But, fortunately, given everything going on right now in the live music market Songkick serves, Sarah Jones has plenty to say on almost everything else…

Being at a concert discovery service must have been challenging during the pandemic, when there were no concerts to be discovered? The pandemic taught us a lot about business within live music, but it’s been great to get back to normal. We did a lot of pivoting, ran a few livestreams, looked at international commerce and did a lot of localisation, so we were still very busy.

Did you ever worry it was all over for live music?

No. I’ve been around the block a few times. It was obviously unprecedented, but the pandemic taught us how important live music is. In 2022, the market just went nuts and came back so strong. Live music is such an essential part of people’s lives. We’ve seen the whole experiential economy boom since the pandemic.

Although now there’s a cost-of-living crisis. What effect will that have on live music?

Live music is discretionary spend for consumers. It’s very much in the affordable luxury category. But people still want to be together. That sense of connection and community is really important, because we didn’t have it for so long.

I mean, look at what’s happening at the moment: [tours from] Madonna, Beyoncé, Taylor [Swift]… I don’t think we’ve ever seen a year like it. You will still see gigs be a strong part of that discretionary spend.

A lot of people in the industry are still concerned about the future though. If there are too many gigs and not enough money to go round, surely someone’s going to lose out?

How does Songkick fit with the rest of the Warner Music empire?

Songkick is universal. It’s label agnostic, DSP agnostic, ticketing company agnostic…

So agnostic that you just used the word ‘Universal’ to describe it…

[Laughs] Yeah! We work with everyone and that’s really at the heart of what we do. Yes, it’s great being part of a record label, because it gives us real insight into how to help artists, but it’s all about us having our own autonomy.

Are any other music companies ever suspicious because of who owns Songkick?

No, I’ve actually never experienced that. We would never want to be perceived as a propaganda tool. I’ve looked after the commercial side of the business for four years now and I definitely place it within that neutral space.

What did you make of the recent Taylor Swift ticket sale furore?

It’s a real challenge when you have opportunities that are that big. And it’s really gutting if you’re a fan and you really want to get to a show. I’m sure there are a lot of lessons that have been learned around the scale of demand.

Saturation could be a challenge in the next 12 months. What Songkick focuses on is connecting artists with users who really want to go to a show. And our industry tools are there for artists to really help them, whether it’s a saturated market or a dry market.

What if you’re a grassroots venue and you can’t afford such things?

Well, a lot of our services are absolutely free at the point of use. It is really tough out there. We are working on some initiatives with grassroots venues and it’s something that we really do care about.

Can you give us any information about those initiatives?

Not at present, no.

I don’t think we’re seeing that play out with Beyoncé, for example. It’s an access challenge. How do you create that equitable access to being able to get Taylor Swift tickets? Everyone’s looking at robust technology and systems and how you pace a sale. There are a lot of things that could be done differently, but also, it’s a massive artist.

What is the typical Songkick user like? There’s not an average Songkick user. We have everyone, from [age] three to 66. I care just as much about parents being able to buy a gig ticket transparently as [I do] Gen Z.

It must be a challenge catering for everyone from hardcore music fans to people who only go to one gig a year?

“I feel passionately about the evolution of the live music industry in the transparency space.”

I do think the utility that we’re offering is valuable for both scenarios. And if you’re going to one gig, you’re going to find out about 10 more. Maybe you’ll turn into a two or three or four gigs a year person.

If you could change one thing about today’s music industry, right here and now, what would it be and why?

I feel really passionately about the evolution of the live music industry in the transparency space. That’s a really important move for everyone.

It’s been a long time coming, but look how quickly we went to mobile tickets. So many services have globalised and become digitised overnight through necessity [during the pandemic].

There can be a lot of mystery and complexity around live music and I see our role as demystifying all of that.

We are here to make things simple. It really shouldn’t be that hard to be able to get a ticket to a show. And it shouldn’t be that hard to know about that show coming in.

And what will success look like for the new Songkick a little further down the line?

We need to make sure that our brand and identity really speaks to who we are. We will be globally expanding and launching in several languages.

I call it being ‘glocal’ – being a global brand at scale, but being locally relevant. Songkick has a real opportunity to be the home for live music, a real in-house consumer brand that’s there as a tool to help people get to gigs. n

Sarah Jones with the Songkick team

‘IT TAKES TIME TO DELIVER THIS LEVEL OF CHANGE AND NOT EVERYONE IS ABLE TO MOVE AT THE SAME PACE’

I have previously voiced my frustrations about how little we share in this industry when it comes to technology platforms and databases. I have also, however, identified some positive examples of sharing, and I am going to focus this article on one in particular, the ‘Virtual Recordings Database’.

VRDB is a system that was developed within SCAPR, the international association for performers’ collective management organisations (CMOs). It is a project that started in earnest in 2014. Its mission was to make a fundamental shift away from a claims-based model for international performer collections, to one based around a shared and agreed view of performer line-ups on sound recordings and audio-visual works.

Within the SCAPR community, the traditional model for performer payments flowing between countries was for each CMO to send out a file that listed all the recordings that had been played in their country within a given year (the ‘played recordings file’).

This file would be sent to all other performer CMOs, who would then match it to their local repertoire database. That society would then generate a file including a claim for every instance where a performer they represent was included in the line-up of those matched recordings.

To this day, this is how many significant parts of our industry continue to function. But it is a very inefficient way of doing things.

Not only does it result in large volumes of data files regularly flowing back and forward between each and every CMO, but it also typically results in the process being run from first principles every time. In a slightly Groundhog Day fashion, the processes get run again and again with little or no reference to previous iterations.

VRDB changed this model by putting a shared database of recordings and performer line-ups in

the centre of things. That central database acts as the retained memory of recordings and their lineups and is at the heart of making the process much more efficient.

Instead of waiting for a played recordings file to be delivered, each SCAPR member proactively uploads into VRDB the recordings and performer line-ups that they hold and maintain locally. When these recordings land in VRDB, matching logic is used to determine whether any other societies have already uploaded the same recording. Where matches are found, the differences in the metadata between the VRDB view of things and the new upload are identified. Each recording in VRDB has a Repertoire Manager (typically the country of commissioning for the recording), who then receives notifications of these data differences and gets the opportunity to accept or reject them.

To date, more than 10 million distinct recordings have been uploaded and are now held in VRDB, with line-ups that are the result of sharing and collaboration. For the first time, all that work reviewing and amending performer line-ups that used to happen in-country and largely stay in-country is now being shared.

As well as being more efficient, it means that the allocation of neighbouring rights income is more accurate and more consistent. Who knew?

There are two other main components to VRDB. The first is playlist matching. When a CMO receives details of the music that has been played in their country, these playlists invariably include references to recordings that are not in that CMO’s local database. The CMO can upload those unmatched playlist items into VRDB where matching and searching functionality can be used to locate and download the necessary metadata.

This searching capability is not restricted to the uploading CMO. VRDB allows any CMO to assist

PPL CIO and MBUK columnist Mark Douglas looks at the evolution and benefits of the Virtual Recordings Database, a shining example of cross-border co-operation and efficiency that is benefiting CMOs and performers…

“More than 10m recordings have been uploaded and are now held in VRDB.”

in finding matches. This turns matching into a push and pull activity where you not only have the original CMO searching for matches, but you also have the other CMOs making recommendations.

This is an interesting feature as it leverages a CMO’s motivation to make sure that their recordings are being matched to. If, for example, a CMO has a lot of classical performer members, it is very much in that society’s interests to assist other CMOs in searching for and making those traditionally difficult classical music matches.

It also means that SCAPR can engage specialist third party matching services on behalf of the entire community. As well as being a very efficient way to procure such services, it allows SCAPR CMOs to benefit from matching approaches and technologies (such as AI and Machine Learning) that they may not be able to if acting alone.

The third and final piece of VRDB is the uploading of played recording files. When a CMO has completed the allocation of royalties for a given period, they upload the details of all the recordings that were included in that distribution.

To the extent that any of these are not already included in the VRDB database (they may have been held only in the local database and not yet uploaded), they will be matched to the VRDB repertoire database and VRDB IDs assigned.

Through this mechanism, the CMO has a link between all the local recordings that they distribute money against and the VRDB repertoire database. This allows them to use the repertoire synchronisation functionality of VRDB.

Through this, they can periodically download a file of all changes that have been made to the VRDB database for recordings that they distribute against. This ensures they have all the performer line-up additions and deletions that have been approved by the Repertoire Manager and keeps their local database synchronised with VRDB.

In recent times, a powerful reconciliation tool has been developed that allows a CMO to compare the performer line-up in their draft distribution results against VRDB and to identify where the line-ups differ.

This rich functionality provided by VRDB is making a real difference to the efficiency and accuracy of international performer collections. By the end of 2022 there were 15 SCAPR CMOs that were fully operational on VRDB, with a further 10 that have started their transition journey.

I have personally been involved from the outset of VRDB, so I have seen much of the journey it has

been on. At the most recent gathering of SCAPR CMOs in Belgrade there was a presentation on just how far VRDB had progressed, and it caused me to reflect on what it was about this little-known project that has made it a success.

Firstly, very importantly, VRDB is not a threat to local systems; it augments them. Rightly or wrongly, CMOs are protective of their technology systems. They are often a complex mesh of highly integrated components and staff knowledge, and business processes are often tightly coupled with the existing systems.

Secondly, we did not try to boil the ocean, nor did we seek perfection. We developed a set of core requirements that worked for most and adopted a minimum viable product approach in the delivery.

Even now, nine years on, we are still evolving the system to deal with the edge cases and trickier requirements. But we are doing it from a place where the existing functionality is well understood. Thirdly, through the delivery phase of the project, we took genuine business operations and technical experts out of their businesses to drive the project. Using an agile delivery model, that group of experts met in person for four-five days every month to thrash out the detailed requirements and solution design.

Over a period of about 20 months, those requirements were progressively developed and put live, with the role of the operational specialists increasing as the system transitioned into live use. Importantly, whilst that group was supported by a technology delivery partner, control was never relinquished to them.

Finally, but perhaps most importantly, we had patience. It takes time to adapt to and integrate systems that deliver this level of change and not everyone is able or ready to move at the same pace. There is still more functionality to refine, edge cases of functionality to accommodate and more on-boarding to be done, but the same patient and considered approach will prevail and VRDB will continue to succeed.

Perhaps one other reason VRDB was a success is that it kept a low profile. Large, multi-country technology projects are never easy to deliver, and to have the world watching in expectation seldom helps. VRDB was never about highprofile fanfares. It was about making practical and pragmatic improvements to the muck and bullets of CMO business processes and what it lacks in industry awareness, it more than makes up for in the success it is delivering.

“Importantly, VRDB is not a threat to local systems; it augments them.”

WHAT I WISH I’D KNOWN

Elspeth Merry started her career in journalism before moving into publicity. She worked at Inside Out and Island Records before founding her own agency, Artists’ Way. Today, she reps acts including FLO, Holly Humberstone, Glass Animals and Joesef...

The first thing I wish I’d known from the beginning is that storytelling will remain so important throughout an artist’s career. When we talk about press, the perception is that it sits at the bottom of the chain. Spotify and YouTube have come along, which are incredibly important, but the story and publicity is always the foundation of an artist campaign. What we put into the messaging is what the radio pluggers and commercial teams go out and use and it’s also what informs social media.

Sigrid is a great example of how the story has remained intact. I worked with her when I started at Island and she’d just been signed. I sat down with her and said, Don’t Kill My Vibe is about a session with male producers who disrespected you; do you want to tell that story? Initially, she wasn’t sure because she didn’t want them to find out. We told her that she didn’t have to name them but that the message is going to be such an important one when people listen to this song. She decided that she did want to tell it and that, as a starting point for Sigrid, has really carried and influenced how people feel about her as an artist. She’s known for making very defiant pop music and being fearless in her decisions. As she’s grown, she has got more confidence to say it as it is and speak out.

When something becomes successful very quickly, you can lose sight of the pillars and objectives of why you started something and why the artist is doing music in the first place. FLO is a really good example of a campaign that’s become successful very quickly. It’s been going for 10 months now, although they’ve been developing for a few years.

I’m very conscious that I want to do some of the grassroots things, like podcasts that we might have missed. You could just go straight to doing massive cover stories and big broadsheet features but one of the best things we did was this amazing Madame Joyce podcast, where the girls had so much fun.

It was a young black presenter with three black women and there was so much value in finding the nuances to what they wanted to say. Sometimes, you can put young musicians in situations where they’re with an older journalist who thinks they know, but there’s power in speaking to the community. I have to constantly interrogate myself and be like, ‘What’s best for the artist right now?’ In that, there’s a diminishing of ego.

When I started Artist’s Way, my ethos was to serve the story and the art and not the ego and go back to why I loved what I did. I was reading The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron and journaling every morning and realised I was making a lot of excuses as to why I was staying in a job. I was at Inside Out as Head of Press and within six

“I really love being the person who is ultimately protecting the artist.”

months, I realised the role wasn’t what I wanted it to be. I was managing a really big team and there was less chance to be creative and on the frontline of PR, working with the artists directly. I think my ego definitely led the decision to take on that role. It seemed like the obvious next step, but, as my dad said, the further up the greasy pole you go, the less fun and joyous it is.

You are told to keep climbing that ladder and that there is only one route to success, but, actually, there are so many people going independent now who realise they want their own business. They don’t want to be dispensable because, ultimately, if you’re working at a big corporation, you are dispensable. Taking that power back and setting up a business, navigating and negotiating my own fees, has been a massive learning curve. I’ve had to ask, ‘What am I worth? What is my value?’ You can go and work for someone else’s dream and I really felt that at an agency. At a label, you feel more like you’re working towards the same shared goal, but I can still do that, I just don’t have to be in the office.

Another thing I’ve learned is to be critical of failure. In the music industry, there’s a propensity to always say, ‘Everything’s great. Everything’s going really well’ because people are afraid to be honest. But actually, it’s really important to ask, ‘What didn’t go well on that campaign? Where can we be better here?’ When you’re doing PR, you have to be brutally honest. You’re trying to convince people to love something as much as you do and you’re not given a marketing budget that will allow you to put money somewhere and make things happen. You’re speaking to individuals who would put their name next to an artist and vouch for them.

On that note, there’s a saying that I feel is really true of music: success has many fathers and failure is an orphan. I’ve worked a lot with artists who have been really successful at points and those who have not been as commercially successful as people would want or expect. A lot of the people who do the hardest work aren’t shouting the loudest but when something becomes very successful, everyone takes credit for what’s happening. When you’re a publicist, you’re the person that’s brought onto the team at the very beginning. Something will land on your desk when it’s not successful yet and you have to try and make this artist be seen, you have to build their profile. It feels really satisfying and fulfilling to have been there throughout the whole journey.

Some people will come on at a later stage and take unwarranted credit for something.

Sticking around and being that person the artist can trust and confide in has always been the role of a publicist. You could be in a situation with an artist where it might be uncomfortable, like doing an interview or a shoot where you’re not sure about the styling, and having to manage all the relationships on set. I really love being the person who is ultimately protecting the artist and trying to make the process feel as enjoyable as possible. If you’re not enjoying it, what’s the point? It goes back to the story being at the centre. It’s important for artists to constantly ask themselves, ‘Why are we doing this? Why do we want to be a pop star? Why do we want to make this music?’ You can get so caught up in everything and wonder why you were there in the first place.

The other thing I wish I’d known is that boundaries are essential. We all have such an emotional response to music, from how it soundtracks our lives to the artists who we feel see

us and understand our traumas and heartbreak. I often find myself feeling so grateful to be working in this industry and be close to incredible art, but the nature of the job — from maintaining relationships to being immersed in a social industry centred on youth culture and gigs and festivals — means the boundaries can become blurred. It can become impossible to switch off and find balance outside of work.

Setting up Artists’ Way forced me to be more boundaried, because running a business means you can work forever, you can fill every second with tasks and a need to be in forward motion. But there is power in closing your laptop at a certain time, not refreshing your inbox and instead going to a gallery, reading a book and finding inspiration -— because it will all make you a better publicist or industry exec. In a recent podcast we did with Sigrid and BBC Music Life, Sigrid spoke to Maggie Rogers and Finneas about the power of boredom and normalising it. We live in a society where we feel like we have to constantly be improving otherwise we are not growing. We need rumination time!

Also, connecting people from different areas

of culture will play an important part in your job. Publicists are connectors between writers and artists, but also between photographers, editors, fashion PRs, poets and politics. I have always loved connecting people from different disciplines and watching how their relationship leads to new ideas and great art and collaboration.

As an example, I saw parallels between my client Joesef’s story and that of Booker Prize winning novelist Douglas Stuart. Both of them grew up in the east end of Glasgow, with their city being their muse. Joesef writes songs that are nakedly, wrenchingly honest, but with a sense of humour that “underlines the harsh punchline”, and Douglas does the same with literature. We set up an ‘in conversation’ with Joesef and Douglas, where they discussed how they found inspiration in Glasgow and how they navigated queerness and mother bonds and moving away from their home. It was a beautiful interview and introduced Joesef to a new audience.

And lastly, enjoy the process. The team really makes any artist campaign. Work with people you love and respect, and who love and respect you too.

“There is a power in closing your laptop at a certain time and not refreshing your inbox.”

Sigrid Hak Baker

DID YA KNOW... Changing the narrative

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