Interview with the Ambassador of Turkey - Diplomat Magazine

Turkish Ambassador on 100 Years of Turkey-Georgia Diplomatic Relations and Pursuing Progress in the New Era

The future looks promising, and in this interview with Fatma Ceren Yazgan, Ambassador of the Republic of Turkey to Georgia, appreciable insights were shared into what needs to be done to strengthen foreign investments, strengthen trade relations, save the future, and make the next 100 years beautiful for future generations of Turks and Georgians.

It’s been 100 years since the formation of diplomatic relations between Georgia and Turkey. While this relation between both countries have suffered a significant share of turmoil over the years, it is interesting to see that it has in fact, waxed stronger in recent times.

This year marks the 100th anniversary since the establishment of Turkey-Georgia diplomatic ties. What are the landmarks worth celebrating for both countries on this occasion?

In 1921, we were witnessing the end of a very turbulent time at the end of the First World War. The establishment of our current borders coincided with that time, and 13th October is the anniversary of the Kars Treaty as well. Before then, the first ambassador of Georgia in Ankara, had given his credentials to Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the then Commander-in-Chief (not President) of Turkey who was leading an Independence War. Georgia recognized our Independence War and the government in Ankara as a new state, which was very important.

Thereafter, Ataturk established the foundations of our policy towards the Caucasus, and Georgia in 1921. Now, I can comfortably say that since 1921, we have been carrying on this policy so, this is what we are celebrating on this 100th anniversary. This is the landmark of the relations. It’s not only about two modern states. Well, Georgia, unfortunately had to break away from the relations with Turkey for a while because of the Soviet Union, but in reality, we formed the basis for our relations in 1921, and we’ve been able to build on it following Georgia’s independence declaration in 1990.

100 years later and we are celebrating, but what exactly are we celebrating? We are celebrating the resilience, the full reveal of the willpower of Georgians and the Turkish people in keeping peace, ensuring stability, and maintaining good neighborly relations. All of these remarkable things are worth celebrating despite the world wars, Cold War, Revolutions, Counter Revolutions, and several other interesting events.

Turkey is Georgia’s main trading partner. What are the main trading areas between both countries? And where do you see more potential?

We are preparing a list of the most active companies between Turkey and Georgia i.e., those who are exporting, importing, and conducting regular business between both countries. While we are particularly focused on Georgian companies, I can tell you that the trade between our countries cover all spheres of our lives. It’s not only about building materials or clothing, it covers everything. And now, we are developing more consciously to work with governments on pharmaceuticals, high technological products, our finance and services sectors are also developing, likewise transport and digital trade. You name it, we have it. This is our relationship.

Now we would like to see more of Georgian exports in Turkey, and we definitely support that. We would like to help Georgian companies who want to sell their products in Turkey because we have a very good agreement, which will of course be made better and stronger with new negotiations. Simply put, we will seek to include manufacturing industries focused in agricultural or in maybe semi prepared goods, in Turkey or in Georgia. And we need more mutual investors and hopefully, the electricity production, industry, energy industry, and renewables will still be on the agenda.

Right now, our bilateral trade is worth 1.6 billion US dollars, but myself and the Ambassador of Georgia to Turkey, my friend Giorgi Janjgava have been tasked and challenged to grow the trade to 3 billion dollars. Obviously, neither of us can do this alone, we have to work together. So, I am hoping that Georgian wine will be readily available in Turkey. We already had the good news that Borjomi began to export to Turkey.

Let’s talk about Turkish investments in Georgia. What attracts Turkish investors to Georgia? And what are the obstacles that they face while doing business here?

There are a couple of things that attracts Turkish investors to Georgia. Could it be less taxes than those paid in Turkey? Is it more economic or comfortable to use the workforce in Georgia compared to Turkey? Is it new markets access? Or easy bureaucracy not only for startups, but also for established businesses. So these are some of the factors which are the main attraction points for Turkish investors to Georgia. Some of them, I must say their investments in Georgia are backed by emotions because some of our businessmen who come here and invest, are of Georgian ethnic origin, they are called Chveneburi. They had to leave Georgia after the Russians occupation in the 19th century. And then after the independence of Georgia, they came back to their, say, grandparent’s lands, and they wanted to work as a bridge. They invested in agriculture, they invested in manufacturing, and they started construction companies. At that time, these sectors in Georgia were not very much developed, and during these years Georgia has developed its own capacity, its own capital, and its own workforce.

With Turkish investors, it is common to find them invested and building in the tourism sector, small manufacturing, assembling of different industries, agriculture, and energy production. We have three companies who have started construction, with two of them already completing their HPP (Hydro Power Plant). And then we have certain companies who are waiting for their contracts to be signed for their negotiations in the wind energy sector. There are several companies who are actually building in Georgia especially in the energy sector. So basically, Turkish investors have become important bridges between our economies, and one very good example is in the construction materials sector. When I look at the activities of Gorgia, I see their efforts to diversify their supply, not only from Turkey but other countries too.

So most importantly, Turkish investors have come to Georgia because they feel welcome. If they don’t feel welcome, they won’t come. Both Georgian and Turkish people are proud and very emotional. Sometimes calculations are left aside. And this is why they actually love Georgia, because this is our neighbor’s house, and we live on the same street. Our parents lived on the same streets, our grandparents lived in the same street, we know this. This is the feeling.

What would you say about the Namokhvani HPP project and the fact that the Turkish investor left? What are your concerns about this?

I am afraid I cannot comment on that because it is a process which is continuing between the company and the government. I would refrain from any comments at this stage.

How would you assess anti-Turkish rhetoric? Do you think it takes roots from inside the Georgian society or would you say it is provoked by external actors?

I will say that it has lingered for so long in this land, and there is an unfortunate feeling, or a prejudice sometimes or misinformation perhaps in the minds of the Georgian people, about Turks. Many Georgians do not know who Turks are, what is our history etc. The same could be true about Turkish people’s perceptions of Georgians but I see less of that. Now, these perceptions hold probably because during the Russian Empire’s enlargement into the Caucasus, they went to war with the Ottomans. And during those wars, many Georgian families were on the side of the Russian Empire, and, a few were on the Ottoman side, and as the propaganda spread, emotional detachment or attachment became a part of the war. So, the Russian Empire started anti-Turkish propaganda but they actually began with anti-Ottoman/anti-Turkish propaganda very early on in the 19th century.

Obviously, we have had wars, but it wasn’t different than anybody else. The Germans, the French, the Austrians, The Swedes, and the Norwegians have all had their fair share of war. The dark side to our war is the Russian Empire’s spread of their propaganda through the elite, particularly through literature, the political elite and those in charge of Georgia’s early nationalism drive. Later, we started to see how their tones changed. For instance, they first described the Georgian identity on the basis of religion and then like, Ilia Chavchavadze, their definitions started to take different turns. Notwithstanding, the frontrunners of Georgian nationalism or as some call them the founding fathers and mothers of Georgia Nation State actually realized that a multi-faceted (ethnic, religious) Georgia was necessary.

However, the Soviet Union also needed an enemy and this presented in form of the Cold War. In 1946, when Stalin emerged victorious after the Second World War, he wanted to revise the first world war geopolitics situation in the region so, he used the Georgian Academy to lay claims to Georgian territory from Turkey. In response, the Soviet Union, followed the steps of the Russian Empire and used Turkey (now Republic of Turkey) instead of the Ottoman Turks to propagate an image of Pan-Islamist, Pan-Turanist expansionist power, which we are not.

All of these events left residues in Georgia, and now, 30 years after, we are back again, getting to know each other, but we have to keep working on this because it cannot happen automatically. This is why bringing Turkish tourists who are more involved in culture, nature, ethnography, and Georgian tourists who are more involved in exploring different places in Turkey, is very important. Academic exchange is very important, news exchange is very important, and we have to keep working to achieve them even from abroad. It has to be continuous.

Recently there was a BBC talk about Georgian wine in Samtskhe-Javakheti. The person speaking alleged that Samtkhe-Javakheti wine disappeared, because Ottoman Turks invaded Samtskhe-Javakheti in the 16th century. And I was angry, because that is not true. The Ottomans were not wine experts, but they always kept the wine and wine production for trade in the areas that they conquered and they derived taxes from them. These kinds of historical truth are very important to put out there, and this is why I think that we should work more about mutual memory.

It is also important that we ask our people, Turkish and Georgian to be very careful about the things they hear on social media. Above all, as we have seen during the Namakvani HPP project that we need responses not only from the media, or the people, but we also need governmental effort to counter the growing embers of hate speech. We need collective efforts to counter all forms of hate speech because they are consciously targeted at interfering with the cooperation between Turkey and Georgia, and they are having adverse impacts on Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic integration.

In fact, I have tested something overtime. Whenever I speak about the support of Turkey, or any Turkish Minister or the President speaks about Turkey’s support for Georgia’s Euro Atlantic integration to NATO or Turkey’s territorial integrity support for Georgia, some new channels from Facebook will immediately start disseminating propaganda, but it only rewards those who have made it a business.

Recently, the Prime Minister of Georgia met with President Erdogan during the UN General Assembly. Do you know what were the main topics of their meeting and what has been achieved since the meeting?

The meeting was mostly about how to further bilateral relations. The meeting was also a follow up to the successful summer visit of the Prime Minister of Georgia to Turkey and was a good opportunity to exchange views on the issues discussed during the Prime Minister’s visit. Secondly, they discussed regional issues. Our region, the Caucasus, is going through a very delicate time, particularly after the liberation of the Azerbaijani lands, last year, we now have a real chance of developing a real regional cooperation for transport, trade and stability. This is a good chance after 30 years, and the turbulent 90s, and I think our countries and both leadership would like to utilize this opportunity.

Georgia has a specific role to play because it has always occupied a special place in the Caucasus, with Tbilisi already standing out as a very colorful, multi-ethnic city. Honestly, I think there has always been a reason for the Russian Empire’s attraction to Tbilisi as the center of the Caucasus. So, I think that all these issues serve as natural background for our leaders to talk very often about what to do to make sure that in this region, we are able to create a stable, secure, and wealth generating opportunity for next generations.

So far, if you think about what has happened in the past 30 years, it is constant turmoil, and all of our children in this region deserve better. Their future will be different, but it is our job to provide a basis. So, I think this meeting included all these background ideas, and how to work together with Georgia for our mutual goal which is – to establish a safer, healthier, and more secure Caucasus.

Are there any high level visits planned between Turkey and Georgia? I mean, Turkish officials who may be visiting Georgia.

Yes, I recently hosted a high level delegation of the Minister of Defence of Turkey. Prior to the visit of the Minister of Defence,

we have had visits from the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Agriculture, and this will continue. Diplomacy is crowned by high level visits, and bureaucracy works, making the grounds and then with the political decision makers we achieve results. It’s not about signatures, it’s about the willpower to continue for concrete results. So, we will continue the trend, and despite the challenges of the pandemic, I think it’s going good. My colleague in Ankara, Ambassador Janjgava and myself, are very happy with the frequency of the visits. There was a Deputy Minister of Health in Ankara last month, so it’s like a staircase, and we will keep building.

So what are the important goals in Turkey-Georgia relations for the future?

I think first and foremost as I said, we need to take these steps to actualize projects for future generations. We have to accept that it’s not about us anymore. There are new people coming onboard with a new vision, and we have to prepare them for the future in terms of the agreements that we reach. It’s about accessibility. You know for Georgians and Turks, we can travel to each other’s countries with ID cards. You can decide today, pack your bags, find the ticket and go, if you can’t find a ticket then you can drive.

We are already developing this relationship among our people especially among the younger generation. I know many young Turks who come here for electronic music festivals, electronic music, clubs, and the truth is their lives have been so different than ours. So, we need to provide them a fair ground for freedom and exchange.

In terms of trade, yes, we need to increase our trade, but also we need to increase joint investments and joint trade, which means we need to really discover third market opportunities. We have compatible economies, and we can use them.

For the fourth point, which is also part of the first, we need to increase the quality of our education vis-à-vis the employment opportunities that will present in the future, because I think we have opportunities to cooperate. Education will help us to increase the history and understanding of the region which will in turn help to erase those prejudices. Turkey and Georgia have always shared an inclusive state of mind, both countries like our political leaders since the beginning have encouraged regional inclusivity.

It is also a pleasure to note that we’ve always placed objective interests above primitive identity politics. As things stand, it is very important to remember that the world is not about Christians, Muslims, Orthodox, or Non-Orthodox. The world isn’t about it, it’s about rights and freedoms. It’s about equal laws for everyone, and respect for territorial integrity, respect for sovereignty, as these are the principles which we defend.

Right now, I think our goal should be enhancing these principles for our people, for our countries, and uniting the region around these principles, because the world is going through very turbulent times, with rapid changes being witnessed in the world of finance, and world order changes. The world is changing right before our eyes and despite the pandemic, changes are taking roots in quicker timescales, and the only opinion we have right now is to hold on to the people closest to us. This is the essence of regionalism and this is what Georgia and Turkey should be doing now. We should hold hands closely and wait for the waves of this tsunami to recede.