Alter Ego #148 by TwoMorrows Publishing

Roy Thomas’ Breakout Comics Fanzine

STEP INSIDE & SEE THE

GREATEST GOLDEN/ SILVER AGE COMICS CONVENTION EVER!

9.95

In the USA

No.148 September 2017

JOE PETRILAK Presents Once-In-A-Lifetime Panels Featuring:

INFANTINO! KUBERT! SCHWARTZ! NODELL! LAMPERT! HASEN!

82658 00100 1

Characters TM & © DC Comics.

& Many Others!

Blockbustin’ Bonus!

RUSSELL RAINBOLT’s

60-Foot Super-Hero Painting!

Vol. 3, No. 148 / September 2017 Editor

Roy Thomas

Associate Editors Bill Schelly Jim Amash

Design & Layout

Christopher Day

Consulting Editor John Morrow

FCA Editor

P.C. Hamerlinck J.T. Go (Assoc. Editor)

Comic Crypt Editor

Michael T. Gilbert

Editorial Honor Roll

Jerry G. Bails (founder) Ronn Foss, Biljo White Mike Friedrich

Proofreaders

Writer/Editorial: A Classic—Illustrated . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 “An All-Time Classic Line-up!” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3

Joe Petrilak recalls the pleasures & perils of hosting the ultimate Golden/Silver Age con.

Rob Smentek William J. Dowlding

Cover Artists

Carmine Infantino, Joe Kubert, & Gil Kane

The Flash: 60th Anniversary Panel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13

Harry Lampert, Carmine Infantino, Joe Giella, & Frank McLaughin—with Ron Goulart.

“The Big Three” Panel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 Carmine Infantino, Julius Schwartz, & Joe Kubert – moderated by Roy Thomas.

Green Lantern: 60th Anniversary Panel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 44

Cover Colorists Unknown

Mart Nodell, Irwin Hasen, & Roy Thomas celebrate the Emerald Crusader.

With Special Thanks to: Heidi Amash Ger Apeldoorn Bob Bailey Alberto Becattini Rod Beck Glen Cadigan Mike Catron Mike Chomko John Cimino Russ Cochran Comic Book Plus (website) Comic Vine (website) Chet Cox Craig Delich Al Dellinges John De Mocko Joellen Docherty Sean Dulaney Mark Evanier Michael Feldman Greg Fischer Shane Foley Jeff Gelb Janet Gilbert Eric Gimlin Ron Goulart Grand Comics Database (website) Larry Guidry Tony Isabella Glen Johnson Jim Kealy Todd Klein Anthony Koch William Lampkin

Contents

Mark Lewis Art Lortie Dan Makara Doug Martin Dusty Miller Brian K. Morris Frank Motler Mark Muller Marc Tyler Nobleman Palantine News Network (website) Barry Pearl Joe Petrilak Richard A. Pileggi Paul Power Russell Rainbolt Gene Reed Francis A. Rodriguez Allen Ross Bob Rozakis David Saunders Eric Schumacher Darci Sharver Craig Shutt David Siegel Larry Stark Marc Svensson Dann Thomas Steven Tice Carol Tilley Dr. Michael J. Vassallo Neil Vokes Hames Ware Ted White Mark Witz

This issue is dedicated to the memory of

Gaspar Saladino & Mike Docherty—

and to all the Golden & Silver Age comics greats who have passed from the scene

The Making Of The 20’ x 60’ All Time Classic Comic Book Painting – 2000 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 61 Russell Rainbolt writes about it—and a hellzapoppin’ 4-page spread shows it!

Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt! The PAM Papers! (Part 1) . . . . 67

Michael T. Gilbert & Glen Johnson hail Pete Morisi, creator of Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt.

Comic Fandom Archive: Ted White On Comics – Part II . . . 73 Bill Schelly interviews the writer & editor about “The EC Four.”

Tribute to Gaspar Saladino & Mike Docherty . . . . . . . . . . . . 79 re: [correspondence & corrections] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 83 FCA [Fawcett Collectors Of America] #207 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 89

P.C. Hamerlinck presents animator Paul Power, scribing about his Fawcett-related career.

On Our Cover: Two events particularly celebrated at the All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention in 2000 were the 60th anniversaries of the debuts of The Flash and (roughly six months later) Green Lantern… but of course, to A/E’s editor, 1940 was also the birthdate of Hawkman, who co-starred with the scarlet speedster in Flash Comics #1. Thus, our cover features the Golden and Silver Age Flashes (drawn by Carmine Infantino & Murphy Anderson), the Golden and Silver Age Green Lanterns (drawn by Gil Kane & Sid Greene), and the Silver Age Hawkman (drawn by Joe Kubert), who was nearly identical to the Golden Age Winged Wonder. Gil had passed away earlier in 2000—or else the con’s “Big Three” might well have become “The Big Four.” Thanks to layout supervisor Chris Day for putting this one together. [Art TM & © DC Comics.] Above: Joe Petrilak’s “Big Three” comics creators (ID’d in the contents list above) all worked on the Golden Age All-Star Comics, which often featured Flash and Green Lantern; so it seemed fitting that an Infantino-penciled panel of the “Justice Society of America” grace this page. For the record, this panel is from All-Star #41 (June-July 1948), with inking by Frank Giacoia and scripting by John Broome, plus Julius Schwartz as story editor. Scanned from Ye Editor’s personal copy. [TM & © DC Comics.] Alter Ego TM is published 6 times a year by TwoMorrows, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Roy Thomas, Editor. John Morrow, Publisher. Alter Ego Editorial Offices: 32 Bluebird Trail, St. Matthews, SC 29135, USA. Fax: (803) 826-6501; e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Six-issue subscriptions: $65 US, $102 Elsewhere, $29 Digital Only. All characters are © their respective companies. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter © Roy Thomas. Alter Ego is a TM of Roy & Dann Thomas. FCA is a TM of P.C. Hamerlinck. Printed in China. ISSN: 1932-6890. FIRST PRINTING.

writer/editorial

A Classic – Illustrated

t the age of 76, my feelings about comic books and the comics industry are mostly divided into two mental compost heaps: fan memories and pro memories. On the one hand: reading (and cutting up) 1940s issues of All-Star Comics as a 5-year-old… and helping Jerry Bails launch Alter-Ego #1 in early1961; on the other: working alongside Stan Lee at mid-’60s/ early-’70s Marvel… and laboring away at favored assignments such as The Avengers, Conan the Barbarian, All-Star Squadron.

much help he had with the precise guest list. He was determined to do a latter-day echo—a very loud and resonant echo—of the Seulingcons of the late ’60s and the ’70s. With a special emphasis on the 60th anniversaries of The Flash and Green Lantern. And he made it—in every way except profitability, which I’ll leave it to him to discuss.

The comics conventions? For me, they’ve always been the point where those two worlds converge. From the 1965 con at which, newly straddling both spheres, I sat on a panel with Murphy Anderson, Jim Warren, and other professionals… to the so-called Seulingcons that began in the late ’60s and honored so many East Coast pros (which in those days was most of them)… to the early San Diego Comic-Cons, starting with the third one in 1972 and topped by sitting on the dais with Milt Caniff, Charles Schultz, and Russ Manning in ’74.

Presiding over panels composed of personal heroes like Julie Schwartz, Joe Kubert, Carmine Infantino, Irwin Hasen, and Mart Nodell. (All of whom, sadly, have passed from the scene since 2000.)

By 2000, however, the tenor and tone of cons had changed, as more and more of the Golden Age artists, writers, and editors—the folks I cared most to encounter at cons—had either passed from the scene or were finding fewer excuses to attend. Then along came Joe Petrilak, with his grandly (but accurately) named All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention. Because of its emphasis on Golden and Silver Age pros, that con definitely deserved the appellation “All Time Classic.” The “New York” part? Well, even though it was held in White Plains, a subway ride out of “the city,” it was definitely centered around New York artisans. And, note those words “Comic Book.” Not “Comic Art” (ringing in comic strips, though several people in attendance had handled same), and not just the vague “Comics,” but “Comic Book.” I liked that bit. Joe knew what he wanted—who he wanted—no matter how

A few special memories of that con still sparkle in my mind:

Being one of the first two recipients of the Paul S. Newman Award, an honor I shared with Golden Age great Alvin Schwartz and received from the mucho-respected Arnold Drake. Hearing my name called as Dann and I were leaving the building at one point, and turning to see Big John Buscema heartily hailing me… the last time that I was fated to encounter my most frequent and valued collaborator of all. (And I had a number of great ones.) From here on, we’ll let Joe, painter/muralist Russell Rainbolt, and the people on three of the con’s key panels speak for themselves. But there was so much going on at that con that, long before this issue went to print, I’d decided that A/E #153, next June, will be a second issue devoted to the All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention and its star-studded panels. Only then—maybe—can I hope to feel I’ve done my little part in helping to immortalize that last and perhaps best of all the Golden/Silver Age cons. People often say: “You had to be there!” Well, I was… and so were Joe Petrilak and Russ Rainbolt, and a lot of other talented folks whose names you may know. And we’ll do our best to make you feel as if you were, too! Bestest,

COMING IN OCTOBER NOW 100 PAGES!

149

THE MARK OF

GIL KANE!

TM & © DC Comics; Green Lantern cover art ie Severin Gil Kane caricature © Mar

• Miraculous mix of a Silver Age KANE Green Lantern cover—& MARIE SEVERIN’s classic caricature of the artist! • GIL KANE remembered by DAN HERMAN of Hermes Press—a 1986 KANE interview— plus a rare 1974 KANE article on the history of comics, with art by KIRBY • ADAMS • EISNER • DITKO • RAYMOND • FOSTER • CANIFF • GIRAUD • KURTZMAN • FELDSTEIN • FRAZETTA • WILLIAMSON • SEVERIN • GOULD • TOTH, et al.! • Beginning: First-ever reprinting of the offbeat memoirs of JOHN BROOME, writer of the Golden/Silver Age Green Lantern, Flash, & Justice Society! • FCA on Captain Marvel & the Fawcett heroes in Britain, 1944-46—MICHAEL T. GILBERT on Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt creator PETE MORISI, Part II—BILL SCHELLY talks to fan & pro writer TED WHITE, Part III—& MORE!!

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ALL TIME CLASSIC NEW YORK COMIC BOOK CONVENTION PART

“An All-Time Classic Line-up!”

The Story Behind A Most Unusual Comics Convention An Introduction by Joe Petrilak

A/E EDITOR’S INTRO: Before we get to transcripts of the various panels and gatherings of Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age pros, what better person to fill us in about a certain June 9-11, 2000, comics convention than the guy who ringmastered the whole thing—!

paint “the world’s largest comic book painting,” which would depict “every significant comic character ever, from the Yellow Kid to Spawn, in one painting, in life size.” Twenty feet high and 60 feet across, he took me up on the offer (the thing has 60 pounds of paint on it!).

he All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention was a tribute to Phil Seuling, promoter of the New York City comic book shows of the 1970s. Phil’s idea had been simple: put a bunch of comic book artists and writers and dealers in a big room with comic fans and let ’em go at it. This was the template for the All Time Classic Con.

Well—at that point, if I had someone painting Phil Seuling “the world’s largest comic book painting” and I (1934-1984) already had Jim Shooter lined up, the only other thing I had to do was actually put on the show! I should mention, right about here, that I have Asperger’s Syndrome—and that’s what probably made the whole endeavor possible in the first place.

The first potential guest approached—and the first person who thought I could actually pull this crazy scheme off—was my friend Jim Shooter.

To begin with, I needed a place that was not in New York City. There already were comics shows in NYC and I really didn’t want to directly butt heads with them. The only place I looked at was the Javits Convention Center, but it was all booked up for some golf-related trade show that weekend.

Around the same time, I met artist Russell Rainbolt through eBay (of all places), and when I bounced the idea off him, he immediately offered to do some art for the show. Russell is a classically trained, well-accomplished oil painter; but by day, he paints billboards—a dying art in this digital world. I told him the show needed “something historical” and asked if it was possible to

Next place I thought of that was big and nice (and could hold a 60-foot-long painting) was the Westchester County Center in White Plains, NY, some 25 or so miles north of New York City. I knew I wouldn’t get the same turnout as a NYC con, so I had to make up for it by making true comic fans take the extra 12-minute

Frank Bolle & Joe Petrilak Con host Joe (on our right) and artist Bolle at the All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention in June 2000— flanked by late Golden and midSilver Age work by the veteran comic illustrator. All photos in this issue’s coverage of the con are courtesy of Joe P., except where otherwise noted. Most were taken by Anthony Koch. (Left:) Bolle’s “3D-style” cover for Magazine Enterprises’ Red Mask #42 (June-July 1954), the first issue of the mag after it had officially changed its title from an authorized Tim Holt comic book—albeit one in which the cowboy movie star had previously taken on his masked secret identity in a (successful) bid for sales. [© the respective copyright holders.] (Right:) Splash page by Bolle from Western/Gold Key’s Dr. Solar, Man of the Atom #17 (July 1966). Script by Paul S. Newman. [TM & © Random House, Inc.]

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 1

Jim Shooter The former Marvel editorin-chief, who had later launched the Valiant, Defiant, and Broadway comics lines, was the very first guest lined up by Joe P.

Russell Rainbolt standing in front of his humongous 60’ x 20’ super-hero mural. You’ll see and learn a lot more about it beginning on p.61—with the mural itself taking up pp. 62-65.

Carmine was so delighted that he put me in touch with DC editor Julie Schwartz, who was a wonderful man. Mr . Schwartz in turn put me in touch with a host of other Silver Age greats; and, shortly thereafter, comics fan David Siegel contacted me because he heard “someone on the East Coast was putting on the greatest comic book convention ever.” David provided a whole host of other Silver, Gold, Platinum, and

Westchester County Center, White Plains, NY It hasn’t changed all that much since the year “2K.”

train ride north to attend (if for no other reason than to visit Westchester County, New York—home to The X-Men, as Roy Thomas would later point out in a panel discussion). So I took the main hall (28,800 sq. ft.) plus all the side rooms for panel discussions, and I reserved the 16,000-sq.-ft. basement just in case I needed it as well—more than enough space. I thought, “Who is the biggest ‘J.D. Salinger’ in comics?” Who is such a huge comics name that people from all over will come to the show just to meet? The answer was obvious: Carmine Infantino. You don’t get any better than pencilling Showcase #4! (And he’d been a major Golden Age artist as well.)

(Left:) Joe Petrilak with one of his true prizes from the convention: a Carmine Infantino color drawing of the Silver Age Flash, done especially for him. It would later be used as the cover art of Alter Ego #60.

I had lunch with Mr. Infantino, and I said, “I want to put on the world’s greatest comic book convention and cannot do it without you.” I then offered the red carpet treatment: guest of honor, limo, hotel, champagne etc.... and I had my second guest.

(Above:) As covered in depth in A/E #142, super-fan Dave Siegel spent two decades helping to arrange for Golden Age creators to become guests at the San Diego Comic-Con… so when he heard about Joe Petrilak’s con plans, he wanted in! Here he is seen at the 2000 extravaganza, with Alvin Schwartz and Roy Thomas, co-recipients of the first Paul S. Newman writing award. A transcription of that ceremony will see print in our second “All Time Classic Con” issue in 2018. (L. to r.:) Schwartz, Siegel, Thomas, and presenter Arnold Drake. Thanks to DS.

Riders Of The Purple Page

“An All-Time Classic Line-up!”

A Ticket To Ride One memorable feature of the con was a “ticket” made of glass, which was approximately 3” x 6” in area and ¼” thick, which entitled the bearer to free admission at all future All Time Classic New York Conventions— and even had the recipient’s name printed on it. Craig Shutt sent this scan of his own, which he says was presented to him by Joe P. at the end of the show, “as I was packing up my booth and wandering around.” He wishes he’d had a chance to use it!

even pre-Platinum Age comic book greats and was an invaluable asset. I remember arguing back and forth with David. He knew all of the great, old, obscure, and important greats from comics, and his thing was giving them the fame they deserve—but he had a list of like 50 names and they were scattered all over the country! We had to trade names like baseball cards to end up with a list of greats that I could afford to fly in and put up in a hotel. David really deserves all the credit for this classic lineup: in all honesty, I grew up reading John Byrne’s X-Men and only liked Prince Valiant at the time. I knew nothing about the Golden or Silver Ages apart from what Bob Overstreet said about them. But I knew these were important names. Like Chuck Cuidera, a key artist from the Golden Age of Comics: “the creator of ‘Blackhawk’ in Military Comics #1 (1941) as well as creator of Chop-Chop and Captain Triumph.” I had never heard of Chuck Cuidera, much less Chop-Chop, but David fought with me and forced me to read up on the history of comics and made me realize: “These people are important, and they’re dying off.” At this point, the “All Time Classic” was starting to become just that. I then thought, “Now, who is the ‘J.D. Salinger’ of Marvel Comics?” and the answer was obvious: John Buscema, who was at first apprehensive (from bad interactions with past New York con promoters) but then delighted to “give it one last go.” (And if his brother Sal hadn’t been moving into a new house that weekend, he would have come as well.) We’re talking about Carmine Infantino, Julie Schwartz, Joe Kubert, and Joe Giella all in a row! Harry Lampert—the guy who drew “The Flash” in Flash Comics #1! Henry Boltinoff—a Platinum Age “pre-DC Comics” artist! Irv Novick, who drew “The Shield” in Pep Comics #1! Frank Bolle, one of the most prolific comics artists of all time! Dan DeCarlo from Archie Comics! Jerry Robinson! Joe Sinnott! George Tuska! Even if you didn’t know who they were, you had at least heard of them! (Sadly, the only “one that got away” was Robert Kanigher; otherwise we’d have had all the still-living members of the creative team of Showcase #4 present, but that didn’t happen.) David Siegel truly came up with an “All Time Classic lineup of Silver and Golden Age greats.” By the time I met these guys in person, I knew all about them; I knew all about the history of comic books, and there I was chatting it up with them!

I was getting a little worried, because I had such a top-heavy list of all-time classic greats that it might become the “geriatricon”—so I had to balance it out with the next generation of all-time classic greats: the Bronze Age greats (some of whom were also Silver Age stars): Jim Shooter, Barry Windsor-Smith, Roy Thomas, Boris Vallejo, Marv Wolfman, Bernie Wrightson... Dave Cockrum... Walter Simonson... Neil Vokes... who wouldn’t give their left arm for this lineup? Marie Severin, Valiant colorist Janet Jackson, “Mr. Silver Age” Craig Shutt, Rudy Nebres... Sal Velluto, Bob Almond, and on and on. And of course a good smattering of thencurrent artists, mostly friends and friends of friends—all great people.

Since I had a real con going on at this point and since I had all this sheer history in one place at one time, I had to have panel discussions, too. These talents had more than their signatures to share with the world! I needed someone real good to coordinate, plan, run, and moderate 17 panel discussions over three days. Someone who knew the comics and could really host a productive comic panel. If this is their first or only or last time talking about the good old days, it’s gotta be someone who knows all about that stuff. I contacted Roy Thomas and explained this to him, and he volunteered to run that part of the show. That meant Roy was here to work, not sign autographs all day, then go to a Broadway play. He was “one of us” as well as “one of them.” It’s important to point this out, because Roy was not only attending panel discussions; he was also moderating others, and supervising yet others. Roy did not get a chance to sign many autographs that show, and a great debt is due to him for the success he made that part out to be. The other main panel moderator was multiple award-winning science-fiction and mystery writer Ron Goulart, with whom I was put in touch by David Siegel. In addition to his many other accomplishments, Mr. Goulart had written a number of popular books about the Golden Age of Comics.

At this point, I had a guest list of over 100 comic pros from all over the place. I rented a few floors in the four-star Crowne Plaza Hotel in White Plains for whoever needed rooms. It was $99 per night, but at that point and with these guests, only the best would do for them. Although everyone was tremendously grateful for the first-class treatment, it’s the little things I remember most: like Dan DeCarlo, who lived about a mile from the Crowne Plaza. I said, “If you come, I’ll even get you a room at the Crowne Plaza!” He replied, “Why? I live a mile away from there,” to which I replied, “Because you’re a guest like all of my guests and deserve a room. Call it a ‘weekend Ron vacation.’” He agreed, saying, “It would be Goulart nice for my grandkids to see me as a comic Science-fiction, pro at a con one more time.” I offered him a mystery, and limo; that he did refuse. comics writer.

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 1

Or gag cartoonist Henry Boltinoff, who, upon hearing later that I did rather poorly financially out of the show, wrote me saying, “I did not use the room service or ask for extra towels.” Or so many others telling me thanks for the time of their lives. Next thing I wanted was con tour books—you gotta have those. So I made the ATC “tour book,” typos and all. Twenty-four pages with a color cover and a picture of Russell hand-painting the world’s largest comic book painting on the back. I wanted it to be a comic book, not some “photocopied junk,” so I hooked up with Brenner Printing for “real deal comic books.” I knew many of the attendees wouldn’t know what the guests looked like; some of them had never made a con appearance, and others had aged significantly. Last thing I wanted was a guest asking a comic great, “Who are you?” And if you had a $25,000 copy of Showcase #4, would you want it “defaced” by three wrong signatures? So I included recent pictures of all artists within the book, broken up into Golden/Silver Age and Bronze/present. That way, everyone had something, somewhere, to sign for a fan. It’s now possible to collect one comic book full of all-time classic comic book artists. And, knowing that many attendees wouldn’t know who these old-timers were at all, my job was to teach ’em. With tremendous help from Craig Shutt (“Mr. Silver Age” of The Comics Buyer’s Guide), as well as comics.org, I wrote detailed biographies for everyone. That way, not only would they get the acclaim they deserved, but the fans would also get a living history lesson on comic books. I thank Craig for the final edit—I remember contacting him at the eleventh hour—“I am about to send this to Brenner for print. Please make sure I am not a total idiot and give me a thumbs-up on the bio info. Thanks.” I remember seeing Irv Novick signing Crisis on Infinite Earths #1 at the con, trying not to smudge Marv Wolfman’s signature right next to his own. I remember fans handing a penciler a book he hadn’t seen in the 50 years since he’d penciled it. I remember seeing Carmine Infantino getting up on stage to stand in front of The Flash on Russ Rainbolt’s 60-foot-long painting; then the other Golden Age greats got up, too. (Carmine, of course, was actually from all ages— Golden, Silver, and Bronze.) On a painting that depicts “all significant comic characters from the entire history of comics,” there was a spot for all of them to stand in front of.

“I’d Love To Take A Tour Of You…” Joe P. refers to it as a “tour book”—its cover calls itself a “Program Book”—but what counts is that that cover sported new, artist-colored drawings of the Golden Age Green Lantern by co-creator Mart Nodell and of Batman and Robin by longtime “Bob Kane ghost” Sheldon Moldoff. Shelly himself, in the end, couldn’t make it to the con—but he was definitely there in spirit! [Green Lantern, Batman, & Robin TM & © DC Comics.]

This was the kind of stuff that was just magical. These were truly all-time classic moments in comic book history. This is what made the show worth the hassle of actually doing it.

Craig Shutt For many years, he wrote a column as “Mr. Silver Age” in the late lamented adzine The Comics Buyer’s Guide. Photo courtesy of Craig.

The downfall of my show was the venue itself. The contract with the Westchester County Center stipulated I could use my own people—that way, I could bring in my own food and have all my

buddies, also comic fans, help me run it. But, about a month before the con, I was contacted by the WCC union, who wanted to go over which union people were going to run the show and whether or not I would be needing catering. I told them I had a signed contract with the WCC to use my own people. In a nutshell, I soon learned that, in spite of that contract, the show wasn’t going to happen unless I used “their people.” The cost of these unionized staff, plus the cost of the catering, is what threw the con out of whack. The staffers were getting paid $200 a day, and on top of it, they did things their way. I remember, the night before the con, yelling at them because the floor had not been arranged according to my floorplan and all 450 tables would have to be moved. At midnight. [continued on p.8]

Article Title Sidebar:

White Plains Con Recaptured A Moderator’s Remembrance Of The ATC Con by Ron Goulart A/E EDITOR’S INTRODUCTION: Ron Goulart (seen on p. 5) is an award-winning author of mystery, fantasy, science-fiction, and occasional comics and pulp-style material. In the 1970s he scripted a few horror and Warlock stories for Marvel; he later wrote the Star Hawks newspaper comic strip with artist Gil Kane. He has also written a number of books on popular culture, including Cheap Thrills: An Informal History of the Pulp Magazines (1972) and Comic Book Culture: An Illustrated History (1980), and served as moderator at several panels held at the 2000 All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention.

y remembrances of the White Plains con are pretty good for a man of my advanced age, although a little fuzzy around the edges. I recall that my friend Will Murray and I attended together. But, in talking to him recently about the con, he told me he had no memory that I was even there. I was, though. And I interviewed cartoonists on a couple of panels. It was held in a large building that could be rented for such things. This was to be the first of several large conventions that would rival those of New York and Boston. But that didn’t happen. Another of my chums, cartoonist Gill Fox, was responsible for my being a guest. He had been consulted by con host Joe Petrilak and had suggested people to invite. Among the cartoonists who attended were Harry Lampert, Irv Novick, Dan Barry, Jerry Robinson, and Chuck Cuidera. Cuidera, who inked “Blackhawk” for Will Eisner’s Military Comics, was in the audience of one of the panels I was in charge of. He made remarks from the audience. His wife kept advising him to hush. I interviewed Jerry Robinson in front of an audience of about eight or nine. I was supposed to interview Dan Barry, but am not

The Great Comic Book Artists John Byrne’s cover for Ron Goulart’s 1986 study of major comics creators, alphabetically from Neal Adams to Bernie Wrightson. [Art © the respective copyright holders.]

sure if I did or not. [A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: No one else associated with the con recalls Barry being an invited guest—or even present— though it’s possible that he was.] Will Murray did interview Cuidera and recalls that his memory was somewhat shaky. One of the things that resulted from Cuidera’s emerging on the convention circuit in the 1980s was his taking over another cartoonist’s identity, one Charles Nicholas Wojtkoski. Cuidera’s first two names were also Charles Nicholas. Wojtkoski signed his work with just his first two names and was the co-creator of “The Blue Beetle” for Victor Fox. Somewhere on his con travels, Cuidera convinced himself that he was the Charles Nicholas who had created “The Blue Beetle.” And he added the character to his list of credits.

Chuck Cuidera & Mr. & Mrs. Creig Flessel “Blackhawk” co-creator and longtime inker Cuidera (on left, in shadow) was a sometimes irascible presence at the con—but welcome, nonetheless! Creig Flessel was an early artist on many DC features, including “Sandman” and many non-super-hero types. He had a lengthy career in advertising and comic strips, and earlier as an artist for pulp magazines.

Wojtkoski, a midlist talent, did a lot of work for Marvel in the 1940s and stayed in comics until the ’80s. He is today, on many Net comics info sites, a nonperson. Some say Charles Nicholas is the pen name of Cuidera, others that both Nicholas and Cuidera are house names used by the Eisner Shop. My memories of this particular convention are fond ones. I just wish there were a few more.

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 1

been at that panel. Or like when I had to drag Harry Lampert to a panel discussion with a person he did not know and had never met (i.e., Carmine Infantino) just so we could have the artists from Flash Comics #1 and Showcase #4 side by side. Then in rolls the “Happy 60th Anniversary to The Flash” photo cake, and everyone in the audience gets a piece. Or getting Carmine, Julie Schwartz, and Joe Kubert in a room with host Roy Thomas to present them awards— can it get any better than this? Can you possibly get any more “All Time Classic” than that?

Floored! The floor (not to mention tables, artwork, people, etc.) at the Westchester County Center during the 2000 con—with Russ Rainbolt’s gigantic mural in the background, looming over all. Seen at center of pic is artist Mike Oeming.

[continued from p. 6] Again. As for food, my choices were a deli and a formal catering hall. The deli had six-foot heroes and potato salad, and the catering hall had filet mignon. The total food bill, with staff, was just over $12,000—there’s no way in hell I was offering baloney sandwiches to All Time Classic greats! Realizing I was now about $16,000 over budget and realizing I was in need of more exposure to hopefully bring in more people, I placed quarter-page ads in the New York Post that weekend and had some friends from the UPI run my show as news on 1010 WINS all weekend. The $16,000 plus this additional advertising is what did me in (as well as the “free tour book”), but that I hadda do. In fact, I hadda do the entire show, just the way it hadda be. For me, the point was never to make a dollar on the deal. I originally wanted the con to be six bucks to get in. I worked the math a hundred ways to make it work and it just didn’t, so I made it eight and someway, somehow, on some flowchart I wrote up somewhere, I broke even. So when something like an unexpected $12,000 food bill sprang up, I in turn hoped another 1,750 people would show up magically somehow to cover it.

Where’s Wally? Pics of Gold Key editor Wally Green are hard to come by! Fortunately, collector Marc Svensson, who had videotaped a number of the con’s panels, volunteered to do a screen capture of Green, isolated from an image of the Gold Key panel in which he took part. Thanks a million, Marc—this whole issue would have been impossible without your tapes! [Image © 2017 Marc Svensson.]

For so many of the guests, this was one of their last, if not their last public appearance. There was so much love in the room, not only between fans and greats but also between the greats themselves. Like Wally Green, editor of Gold Key Comics. I got him out of a phone book. I had to convince him that there actually were people who still read his comic books! Turns out he met all his old Gold Key friends— people he never thought he’d see again. I wish I could have

Sadly, Jerry DeFuccio, perhaps the ultimate comics historian, passed on shortly before the convention. He was a great guy—“the man of 1,000 stories.” He was the guy who made Mad magazine funny, and damn was he a funny guy. I asked him to send me a bio I could use for the tour book or write something up. He sent me his life story, as written by someone who had made Mad magazine funny. It was a series of anecdotes that is his career. Since he did not have a computer, it was handwritten. The “bio pages” of the tour book have a grey background made of lettering… the words are “blurry quotes about comic books”... it makes the pages look cool. Towards the back of the tour book, the page with Walter Simonson’s bio has a handwritten background— that’s a page from Jerry’s bio—I always think, “Although he died three weeks before the show, he still managed to pull a feat Alfred E. Neuman would be proud of—he had already signed the book for the Don’t Go Away Mad! fans!” Jerry DeFuccio (on right), then Mad’s associate editor, with the satire mag’s art director, John Putnam,

I remember at the 1970 New York Comic Art Convention. John Buscema Courtesy of Mark Evanier. arriving mad at me for getting him a stretch limo! He lives in Long Island and it’s only about an hour’s drive away from White Plains, but I insisted on a limo for him. And since he was bringing his whole family, it was a stretch limo—which got very lost somewhere in the South Bronx for about an hour! I also think I messed up Roy Thomas’ ride out of town, and he and his wife Dann were stranded somewhere and had to find a taxi (sorry!). I remember buying George Tuska and his friends breakfast Sunday morning at the diner across the street, insisting that “my guests shouldn’t have to pay for food.” I have hundreds of little memories like that which always remind me of what a cool thing I actually pulled off. These are my memories of the show. The worst part about remembering the show and writing about it is the fact that I have to constantly stop and Google the names of various “Golden Age greats” to see if they’re still with us or not. Mostly, they aren’t. That only points out the significance of The All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention in retrospect— because, for one moment in time, all those guys were here, all in one place, one more time. I also took home most of the extra ATC con program books. I

“An All-Time Classic Line-up!”

Dick Ayers The artist of Magazine Enterprises’ original Ghost Rider and Marvel’s Sgt. Fury was indeed at the con— although this photo is from a 2008 event.

Tom Gill The veteran artist of the Lone Ranger comic strip and comic book, seen here at the ATCC, had been a guest at the first comics convention ever, in Manhattan in 1964.

Henry Boltinoff The brother of DC editor Murray B. drew a zillion humorous filler strips—and a few features— for DC Comics.

Panel By Panel This page in the program book listed all panels scheduled for the weekend. Naturally, not quite all came off as planned. E.g., the snafu with John Buscema’s limo caused him to miss the “Silver Age Marvel Comics” panel on Saturday, and Shelly Moldoff (who was scheduled to be on two panels) had to cancel his appearance at the con; but there were still plenty of big Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age names to conjure with. Arguably, for once, the pro guest list even trumped the dealer’s room—and nearly all the panels were well (and enthusiastically) attended! See why we agree with that term “All Time Classic”?

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 1

just couldn’t see them being thrown into a dumpster. I believe I have at least 2,000 copies sitting in an attic in upstate New York. They make a real souvenir of the con—even if you weren’t there! The tour book has real content and, today, it’s really a piece of history. Oh, and I’d like to thank Anthony Koch [mortalli@hotmail.com]—he was “my assistant” for the weekend. Everything cool I wanted to do at the con but couldn’t because I was running the con, he did for me. He was also “my photographer” and took several rolls of film of the con, including “all the cool stuff I wanted to see” (and most of which I still haven’t). He’s also a good guy.

Look! Up Above (& Below) This Caption! One page of the program book was divided between a new X-Men drawing by mutant artist supreme Dave Cockrum and an illo of Superman and Luthor by Neil Vokes, who was then penciling the Adventures of Superman comic. [X-Men TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.; Superman & Lex Luthor TM & © DC Comics.] (Below right:) Cockrum took part in the con’s X-Men panel, which was transcribed way back in Alter Ego #24—still available from TwoMorrows Publishing. Seen in this photo of the panel grouping (left to right) are moderator Craig Shutt, Jim Shooter, Roy Thomas, Cockrum, and Arnold Drake.

The con was also featured on the Westchester TV news station—a threeminute piece on the show, the artists, and Russ Rainbolt’s painting, which was aired in Westchester and NYC. Later, Russ hooked up with Jerry Robinson, and “The World’s Largest Comic Book Painting” went on exhibit for three months all across Europe right after the con. I believe it currently sits in Russ’ basement; his website, where it can be seen in all its splendor, is rainbolt.com. The painting deserves an article in and of itself—and indeed gets one, starting on p. 61 of this issue of Alter Ego. Between the sheer magnitude, the amount of physical work he put into it, and the beauty of the end product itself, the piece is truly a wonder. When the show was over and I was near physical and mental collapse, David Siegel told me: “Forget all about it altogether and wait a few years—then crack open a six-pack and watch the videos and read the transcripts, and you’ll see it the way we all see what you did here.” He was right.

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Some (Very Special) Faces In The Crowd

everal of the panels featuring a number of the Golden and Silver Age guests at the All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention will be presented in Alter Ego #153. All the same, we wanted to try to throw a spotlight on all of them in this issue, so here are the Golden and Silver Age pros who were present but are not depicted elsewhere in this issue. If we missed anybody, we’ll try to make up for it in our 2018 ATCC issue! Thanks to Joe Petrilak (and, indirectly, photographer Anthony Koch) for all photos in this section unless otherwise stated.

Mr. & Mrs. Dan DeCarlo (Right:) For much of the 1950s, Dan drew humor strips for Timely; with its collapse late in the decade, he moved on to become the definitive artist of Archie Andrews.

Mike Esposito & Dave Hunt Mike (above at left) a top late Golden and Silver Age inker. With him is artist Dave Hunt, whose first comics work was for Marvel circa 1972. Hunt, who passed away earlier this year, was most noted as an inker, both at Marvel and DC.

Boris Vallejo & Julie Bell “Boris,” as he signs himself, came to the U.S. from Peru in 1964 to begin a career as a fantasy painter; his first work for comics was for Skywald circa 1970, a year or two later for Marvel, beginning with the cover of Dracula Lives! #1. Since the early 1990s, Julie Bell has also made an outstanding career for herself as a fantasy artist.

Jerry Robinson & Lew Sayre Schwartz The former (on left) was Bob Kane’s first major artistic assistant (and “ghost”) on “Batman,” while Schwartz ghosted the Dark Knight from 1946 through 1953.

Gill Fox & Joe Sinnott Fox (on left) was an early artist and editor for the Quality group, among his many accomplishments—which included work on a number of major newspaper comic strips. Sinnott, while also a fine penciler of mystery and adventure stories, became the most important and influential inker ever of Jack Kirby’s pencils on Marvel’s Fantastic Four.

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 1

Bernie Wrightson Rudy Nebres

Marv Wolfman, Marie Severin, & Ramona Fradon (Left to right:) Marv Wolfman, who entered the comics field in the late 1960s, is best noted for his scripting of Marvel’s Tomb of Dracula and DC’s New Teen Titans. Marie Severin was a major colorist first for EC, then for Marvel, but also drew “The Incredible Hulk,” “Dr. Strange,” Sub-Mariner, and Not Brand Echh. (The woman next to Marie is a non-comics friend of hers, Jean Davenport.) Ramona Fradon is best remembered for a long 1950s run on “Aquaman” and as the original artist of Metamorpho. Photo courtesy of Russell Rainbolt.

has been drawing finely honed comics, both in his native Philippines and in the U.S., since his first work for DC in the early 1970s. He has also drawn for Marvel (most notably The Deadly Hands of Kung Fu) and for Warren Publications.

The WHO’S WHO of American Comic Books 1928-1999 Online Edition Created by Jerry G. Bails FREE – online searchable database – FREE www.bailsprojects.com – No password required

Slowpoke Jay Garrick transforms into The Flash in the story “Crime Has Many Faces!” in Comic Cavalcade #26 (April-May 1948), courtesy of Carmine Infantino (full art) & Robert Kanigher (script). Credits attributed in the GCD by Craig Delich. Repro’d from Roy Thomas’ bound volume. [TM & © DC Comics.]

(on right) with Russell Rainbolt. Wrightson drew many memorable horror stories, as well as the seminal issues of his DC co-creation Swamp Thing. Photo courtesy of Rainbolt.

There were numerous more recent artists, writers, and other comics professionals of slightly later vintage who also made their mark at the All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—and if we overlooked anyone from the Golden and/or Silver Ages in particular, we humbly apologize. It was a crowded, hectic, fun-filled place!

ALL TIME CLASSIC NEW YORK COMIC BOOK CONVENTION PART

60th Anniversary Panel

LAMPERT, INFANTINO, GIELLA, McLAUGHLIN, & GOULART On Bringing The Fastest Man Alive To Life—TWICE! Videotaped June 10, 2000 by Marc Svensson

A/E

EDITOR’S NOTE: As the fates would have it, the year 2000 was technically the 60th anniversary of both “The Flash” and “Green Lantern,” the two major super-heroes of M.C. Gaines’ early-’40s All-American Comics line (at least till Wonder Woman came along at the end of 1941). Accordingly, con host Joe Petrilak and his associate David Siegel arranged a panel of Golden and Silver Age pros to celebrate the occasion: In the case of The Flash, that included Harry Lampert, the first artist (and thus co-creator) of “The Flash” in Flash Comics #1 (Jan. 1940—which of course actually saw print in fall of 1939)… Sheldon Moldoff, who drew the cover of Flash Comics #1…

Transcribed by Sean Dulaney and Carmine Infantino, original designer and penciler of the Silver Age “Flash” in Showcase #4 (Oct. 1956). When Moldoff was unable to attend the convention, his spot was shared by Joe Giella, who’d been the principal inker of the Silver Age “Flash” beginning with the hero’s third outing, in Showcase #13 (April 1958), and Frank McLaughlin, who inked a number of “Flash” stories in the mid-’70s (and also penciled the speedster in an issue or two of Justice League of America). Science-fiction, mystery, and comics author Ron Goulart served as moderator. The videotaping by Marc Svensson begins just as Goulart is about to introduce the panel, commenting tongue-in-cheek on the fact that Infantino has not yet arrived…

Six Decades Have Gone By In A Flash!

“The Flash: 60th Anniversary” panel—flanked by (on left) Harry Lampert’s splash page from Flash Comics #1 (Jan. 1940), scripted by Gardner Fox; and (on right) Carmine Infantino’s splash for Showcase #4 (Sept.-Oct. 1956), scripted by Robert Kanigher & inked by Joe Kubert. Both pages are reproduced from DC’s special Millennium Editions that reprinted those two issues. [Comics covers TM & © DC Comics.] Seen above is the moment Infantino joined the panel, just as it was beginning. (Standing:) Carmine Infantino. (Seated, left to right:) Frank McLaughlin, Ron Goulart, Harry Lampert, Joe Giella. Screen capture by Marc Svensson, who videotaped the panel and helped ID a few of the audience members. [Screen capture & videotape itself © 2017 Marc Svensson.]

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 2

RON GOULART: …Well, he’s the one who drew Barry Allen, so naturally he’s late. A lot of us remember when John Broome was on a panel—he was late, too. I think it’s endemic to Barry’s writers and artists. So, while we’re waiting for Carmine Infantino to arrive, my name is Ron Goulart. [gesture to his right] Frank McLaughlin… [turns to his left] Harry Lampert, Joe Giella… all of whom, I just found out today, worked on “The Flash.” Harry Lampert…

GOULART: So when you turned in your work, was it to Shelly? LAMPERT: Yes. Shelly was the editor down there. I’m trying to visualize the system situation. Most of the work I did at home. But there was some work I did at their premises. I really don’t remember... GOULART: As you know, DC was divided into two different companies at that time. They had one on Lexington and the one on Lafayette. [NOTE: Actually, as Goulart could have elaborated had he felt there was time, DC and All-American were two separate companies, though with partly overlapping ownership, which shared the “SupermanDC” colophon, as well as distribution, but with entirely separate editorial facilities and staffs.]

[audience breaks out in applause as Carmine Infantino enters the room] We now have the two artists who created the two versions—co-created, however you want to say it—both versions of “The Flash.” That’s why we have such a great turnout. It’s such a momentous occasion. So I thought I’d just talk to each of the guys briefly, and then let them talk to you about how they started working on “The Flash.” Now, Harry goes back to— When did you start? 1939 or so?

Gardner F. Fox

LAMPERT: Right. But my biggest strength, I think, was—I always had and I still have it—the ability to tell a story. And I think I told the story very well. Little nuances of maybe a little better technique could have been done, but the story was told. I drew him as gracefully as I could. I think that’s one of the things that the original Flash had, that I did, that did not exist in some of the subsequent people who did it very well, but it was not a graceful figure anymore. A little HARRY LAMPERT: When I drew more chunky. I felt—“Shouldn’t he be graceful?” it? 1939. It was, like, November, but Because there was tremendous humor in the the first date of it [Flash Comics #1] first set-up: playing tennis with himself, catching The original of the above late-1930s photo of Fox was January 1, 1940, so my guess is, bullets, all these things. The football game. That was sent to Roy Thomas some years ago by the it was likely November. One thing I was really my strength. What happened after that, late Lynda Fox, Gardner’s daughter, who said it do remember, it was a terrible rush. I really don’t recall. I know I continued doing was “my very favorite picture of Dad.” They wanted it faster, faster, faster. some additional work on other ones coming up [laughter] Actually, the idea of [“The after that, but then it became sort of a montage Flash”] was definitely [writer] Gardner Fox’s. I came along for the situation, and then Hibbard took over. Hibbard was not, basically, ride, so to speak. I helped develop the final drawing of the thing, a comic book artist. He was an illustrator, and my knowledge—we but it was his idea to be based upon the god Mercury. If you go into almost any good dictionary, you’ll see The Flash looks very much like the guy in the dictionary. [laughter] He wrote the script, and I remember tremendous time pressure. wrote the first “Flash” adventure ever—and wouldn’t you know it, Harry was right about that headgear! A/E’s editor paged through his unabridged edition of the Random House Dictionary of the English Language, and there, right next to the entry on the Roman god “Mercury,” was the above line drawing, complete with winged helmet, based on the famed sculpture by Giovanni da Bolgna. The late Jerry G. Bails, founder of A/E, always maintained that Gardner was probably responsible for the unique headpieces worn by many of the heroes he co-created, such as The Flash, Hawkman, and Dr. Fate. [Image © Random House, Inc.]

I did the very best I could. My background prior to that: I worked downtown at the Lafayette office [of All-American Comics] with [editor] Shelly Mayer and [publisher] M.C. Gaines. I did a little bit of everything. My background was humor, not the blood-andthunder realistic stuff, but I did some painting in the past. So doing things of a non-comic nature was not impossible.

M.C. Gaines Publisher and managing editor of the All-American Comics line, 1940-45, and later the founding publisher/managing editor of EC Comics. From DC’s house fanzine The Amazing World of DC Comics #5 (March-April 1975). [© the respective copyright holders.]

GOULART: How much input did Shelly Mayer have? LAMPERT: I don’t think Shelly Mayer, to my knowledge, had much input with “The Flash.” He did have a lot of input on other things.

I’ll Be Back In A Flash—With Green Lantern! (Above left:) Sheldon “Shelly” Moldoff (he’s the one on the right) in a mock battle with his editor, Sheldon “Shelly” Mayer, in the early 1940s— a few years before the bad blood became real after World War II. (Above right:) Moldoff’s cover for Flash Comics #1. He performed the same task for the first comic book ever to feature Green Lantern. Thanks to the Grand Comics Database. For a history of Flash Comics, see A/E V3#4. [TM & © DC Comics.]

The Flash: 60th Anniversary Panel

Tennis, Everyone? The sequence in Flash Comics #1 in which newly super-quick college student Jay Garrick is “playing tennis with himself,” as mentioned by artist Harry Lampert. Script by Gardner Fox. Repro’d from the Millennium Edition. [TM & © DC Comics.]

it was [artist] Irwin Hasen—they’re dueling around the room. [laughter] Finally, he stabs Irwin in his chest, they kiss, Irwin leaves, and [Shelly] goes back to talking to us like nothing happened. [laughter] But don’t let them fool you about him. Shelly was a genius. I thought he was a complete genius, and I learned so much from him. I could never thank him, wherever he is. [applause] GOULART: Let’s bring our other two panelists in. Joe Giella first. How did you get involved with “The Flash”? We’re talking about the Silver Age. JOE GIELLA: I guess when Carmine started, Julie put me on “The Flash.” Julie could tell you that, though. I always enjoyed working with “The Flash.” Frank Giacoia—we both started at Timely Comics. Frank came to DC, and he wouldn’t rest until he got me out of Timely Comics.

had a very good relationship subsequently—but my understanding is, he never really enjoyed doing it. And, you know, Shelly Moldoff isn’t here, but the wonderful thing about Shelly Moldoff is, he loved what he did. He really thought whatever he was doing was the beginning and the end of everything. We were doing it as a job. We enjoyed doing it. I can’t say I didn’t enjoy doing it. Getting the creative juices working and doing the best work you can. But Shelly, whatever he did, he loved what he did, and, boy, did it show! GOULART: Let’s jump ahead in time to the second Flash. Carmine, now you created, basically— CARMINE INFANTINO: Well, I started off with his Flash. [indicates Lampert] And then, later on, the thing died. Then they brought it back. There was nothing momentous about it. I remember when we first got the thing to do [in 1956]. Julie Schwartz called me in and said, “We’re going to do super-heroes again.” I didn’t care. We’ve got work to do, was all I cared about. [laughter] No one was impressed with “The Flash” or anything about it. You never thought anything was going to happen. And then the first issue sold, and then they tried the second. Then, about the third, they knew they were onto something. One thing about Shelly Mayer, though, that I’ve got to bring up. Joe, you know this. Shelly was very instrumental in watching the scripts. It was very important to Shelly. He’d watch every script that came through. Julie and Bob Kanigher used to work in one of the rooms, and he [Mayer] had his hands in every script ever ordered. He was very careful about that, and I think that’s what taught us [how to tell] stories. GOULART: Now, you went up and tried to get started there in the ’40s, right? INFANTINO: Yeah. The first time I went up with a guy by the name of Frank Giacoia, one of the best inkers in the world. Joe will agree with me. Frank and I went up together. We were both young kids, and the first thing we did was, we went in to see Shelly, and he told us to sit down. He was sitting across the desk—young, bespectacled guy. All of a sudden, the door behind us opens up and this little guy comes in with a T-square. Shelly grabs his T-square and—

Fiddling While Super-Heroes Burned Infantino’s first work on The Fastest Man Alive involved the Golden Age version, in his last year or two as a solo feature. Seen above is his splash panel from Comic Cavalcade #28 (Aug.-Sept. 1948), the 15¢ mag whose first 30 issues cover-featured The Flash, Green Lantern, and Wonder Woman. Inks by Bernard Sachs; script attributed to Robert Kanigher. Thanks to Eric Gimlin. [TM & © DC Comics.]

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 2

A Fast-Paced Story About A Turtle (Left:) The 12th and final page of “The Slow-Motion Crimes” in Comic Cavalcade #24 (Dec. 1947-Jan. 1948)… & (Right:) The splash page of the lead “Flash” story in Showcase #8 (June 1957). In both cases, pencils are by Infantino, inks by Frank Giacoia, script credited to Robert Kanigher. The former is courtesy of Rod Beck; the latter from Art Lortie. Kanigher would revive The Turtle, now just a guy in a turtleneck sweater, in the very first Silver Age “Flash” story, in 1956’s Showcase #4… again with Infantino as penciler. [TM & © DC Comics.]

Frank Giacoia Commonly acknowledged as one of heroic comics’ supreme inkers. From the 1975 Marvel Con program book.

I finally got over there and then they put me on “The Flash,” “Batman,” and other characters. But then, “Batman” and “Flash” are my favorites. I always enjoyed working with them. [applause] GOULART: [to Frank McLaughlin] Would you like to get in on this?

FRANK McLAUGHLIN: I think I came in right after Joe. What always amazed me about “The Flash” and the way it was drawn is how this guy here [Carmine] was able to capture motion. Nobody came closer to actual motion on a piece of paper than this guy could. It was just amazing how— [applause]. Boy, and as far as storytelling, can’t beat it. So I’m very happy and honored to be able to work on the strip. It was a lot of fun. INFANTINO: I had great inkers on the thing, so I was very fortunate. [applause] GOULART: So, you guys. What part did Julie Schwartz play in— INFANTINO: A major part. All I remember—and this is only the

level I can give you—I was called one day by Schwartz to come in and he said, “You’re going to be doing ‘The Flash’ from now on.” I said, “We did that 20 years ago.” [laughter] Something new? He said, “It’ll be new. Don’t worry about it.” Julie is not the funniest guy in the world. Very serious guy.

Robert Kanigher Detail from a circa1945 photo of the DC staff. He wrote the lead “Flash” stories in Showcase #4, 8, 13, & 14. For two-plus decades he was also an editor at the company. (This photo was mislabeled in a fairly recent A/E as a pic of “Batman” co-creator Bill Finger.)

Bob Kanigher wrote the script. That I know, because Bob handed me the script. And then Bob did a very rough drawing of the cover. It’s the one with the Flash on the filmstrip. And I said to him, [NOTE: Carmine seems to be referring here to Kanigher, not to official editor Schwartz] “What do you want the costume to look like? The old one?” He said, “No. Go design something.” So, I said, “Do you want to see it?” He said, “No. Just do it and bring it in when you’re finished.” [laughter] All I remember—after the first one—I do believe, he was off the thing after the first one. Why, I don’t know. That you’ll have to ask Julie. I don’t want to get involved in that thing. I only know that the scripts, I did them and brought them in and that was it.

The Flash: 60th Anniversary Panel

The costume was fairly simple. I got a very simple drawing for the thing and I thought of the old Flash and modified him somewhat. And that’s how he came alive. GOULART: Joe Kubert worked on that first story. INFANTINO: Yeah, Joe inked the story. That’s right. I brought that in, and I didn’t even know Joe did it until somebody told me later on. Because we never saw each other that much. We worked from home. You worked and then you came back in. Although, at one period, Joe had a studio in the city somewhere. He had models and everything else up there. It was a wild place. So, I knew if I went up there, I’d never get anything done. [laughter] I’d actually go home and work, then visit Joe. [laughter] GOULART: Back to Harry. You only did one— LAMPERT: One, and I did do some of the next. [A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: Actually, Lampert seems to have drawn the entirety of the first two Golden Age “Flash” stories, in Flash Comics #1 & 2. See p. 20.] GOULART: Do you remember why that happened, or why you stopped doing “The Flash”?

Around The World With Joe Giella The first “Flash” page inked by Joe Giella—from Showcase #13 (April 1958), with pencils by Infantino and script by Kanigher. Well, it’s the first “Flash” page Joe inked unless the issue’s cover was drawn first! Curiously, Giella apparently never inked an Infantino-penciled “Flash” yarn in the Golden Age. Thanks to Bob Bailey. [TM & © DC Comics.]

LAMPERT: I really don’t know. INFANTINO: You were never told? LAMPERT: No. I almost immediately became the artist on “The King.” And then when— GOULART: All the “King” fans will remember that, huh? [smattering of applause]

A Tale Of Two Speedsters The Flash #229 (Sept.-Oct. 1974), above, wasn’t the first issue inked by Frank McLaughlin; that was #222 (July-Aug. ’73), which he’d co-inked with Dick Giordano, who embellished several issues in between the Giella and McLaughlin eras. This “two-Flashes” tale was scripted by Cary Bates and penciled by Irv Novick. Thanks to Bob Bailey. [TM & © DC Comics.]

Irv Novick signing comics at the ATC Con. Novick had been the original artist of MLJ’s “The Shield” in Pep Comics #1 (Jan. 1940). Photo courtesy of Joe Petrilak.

LAMPERT: People ask me about “The King,” and I say, “Well, it died when I went into the Army.” When I went into the Army, that ended my comic book career. I did “The King.” I took over “Red, White & Blue” from Bill Smith. And I was doing a very respectable job on the title, I think. But now I’m in the Army... the end. I said, “Well, let ‘The King’ die with me.” Then, someone said, “Oh no.” Someone showed me a Star Spangled Comics that had just come out, and there in the middle of the whole thing was “The King – Master of Disguise.” Not drawn the way I drew it, but exactly same character. So he didn’t die. “Red, White & Blue” died, I think, almost immediately because of the war situation. Bill Smith was a very, very talented young man.

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 2

GOULART: [to audience] Does anybody know who William A. Smith was?

That was it. And if I inked a page, I think it was $45. Although, the honest truth is, Julie did not like my inking. He’d rather I didn’t ink and preferred people like Joe and Frank. Every once in a while, I’d get my back up and he’d give me a story to do [= ink] and that was it.

McLAUGHLIN: Great illustrator.

FROM AUDIENCE: You inked your own “Elongated Man” a few times.

LAMPERT: His love was to become an illustrator, and he did. He became a very good illustrator. Many of us at that time did not believe comics were the beginning and end of everything. It was a means of making a good living. I was able to do... [laughter] Win, Place, Or Showcase! a reasonable It’s clear in retrospect that the comic book that living. I’ll tell heralded the dawn of the Silver Age was Showcase you: When I did #4 (Sept.-Oct. 1956), which introduced a revived “The Flash,” I got and revised version of the Golden Age Flash. $7 a page. Doing Pencils by Infantino; inks by Kubert. Infantino everything. And says that origin writer Kanigher, rather than then later I got editor Julius Schwartz, designed the iconic cover. Thanks to the Grand Comics Database. Photos of a raise to $10 a Kubert & Schwartz will be seen in the next panel page. When I transcription. was in the Army, I was up to $10 a page doing “The King,” “Red, White, & Blue.” But that was for everything. You lettered it. Drew the boxes. You did everything. So I was able to do six pages a week. $60 a week for a guy in the Army wasn’t too bad.

INFANTINO: Yeah. That I’d get every once in a while, but they preferred I didn’t, you know? FROM AUDIENCE: “Detective Chimp”! INFANTINO: Well, I didn’t have the house style. GOULART: Just curious. Did you sometimes sign your work with other names? INFANTINO: Oh, yeah. For a while I was signing “Rouge Enfant”—and one time, Julie gave me some lettering and said, “Who the hell is this Rouge Enfant...?” [laughter] [NOTE: “Rouge Enfant” is the French equivalent of the Italian name “Carmine Infantino”: both mean “red infant.”] It tells you how proud we were of our stuff, that we had to hide our names. True story. This was during the [Senator Estes] Kefauver hearings, when they were condemning all comics and everything. So we were almost ashamed of our jobs, for God’s sake. We’d go along, sulking behind things and someone would ask, “What do you do for a living?” and I’d mumble. I didn’t want them to know. Because this guy had us down as all pariahs. He was running for President. Thank God he lost! [mild clapping]

GOULART: My late father was working in a factory during that period, making $25 a week. Frank, what do you think? By the time you guys were doing [“The Flash”], the rates had risen a little bit? McLAUGHLIN: I think. Don’t ask me what they were, because I can’t tell you. INFANTINO: When I started, it was $15 a page for “The Flash.” I remember that. Whit Ellsworth was the editor-in-chief in those days, and one day he walks through and looked at the work and said to Julie, “Give ’im a raise.” So they gave me $2 more. [laughter] That went on for a couple of years. I think, when I stopped drawing for DC, I think I was getting $30 a page at most.

William A(rthur) Smith served as an instructor at New York City’s Grand Central School of Art (1942-43) before joining the OSS in China later in World War II. His paintings are represented in the Metropolitan Museum and the National Portrait Gallery; he also did illustrations for such “slick” magazines as The Saturday Evening Post. He wasn’t the first (or last) guy who ever drew comic books but later neglected to mention them in his résumé. Thanks to David Saunders of www.pulpartists.com for some of the above info.

Three Cheers For The “Red, White And Blue”! William A. Smith had been the first artist of the “Red, White and Blue” feature, seen here from All-Star Comics #2 (Fall 1940). Script attributed to Jerry Siegel. Thanks to Jim Kealy. [TM & © DC Comics.]

The Flash: 60th Anniversary Panel

He Ran A Fur Piece

FROM AUDIENCE: VicePresident, wasn’t it? Wasn’t he running for Vice-President as [Adlai] Stevenson’s running mate [in 1952]?

Senator Estes Kefauver in his trademark coonskin cap on the cover of a 1956 issue of Time magazine, when he was campaigning to become the Democratic nominee for President; he wound up as Adlai Stevenson’s V-P candidate as President Dwight D. Eisenhower trounced Stevenson for the second time in a row. Kefauver’s rise had been helped by his Senatorial crime investigations—and by his 1954 hearings on juvenile delinquency, at which Dr. Fredric Wertham was a very friendly witness. See A/E #116. [© TimeWarner, Inc., or its successors in interest.]

INFANTINO: He tried [for President], but they knocked him off quickly. GOULART: Davy Crockett hats. Remember? Kefauver used to wear a raccoon cap. FROM AUDIENCE: At that time, did you get a difference from your normal pay if you did a cover as opposed to an interior or a splash [page]? INFANTINO: Covers, I think, were a couple of bucks more. I’m not certain, but I think so, though. It wasn’t that much more.

that, sitting right next to him [i.e., the next story in the issue] —“Cotton-Top Katie.” “Cotton-Top Katie” is mine. And hardly anyone could believe the same guy could do both styles at the same time. So, I did a lot of humor stuff for DC Comics after the war. Like “Cotton-Top Katie” [and] a whole series of gag cartoons I didn’t sell to major magazines, so I made them into comic strips, humorous comic strips for filler pages like Henry Boltinoff was doing. I did a lot of work of that nature. Different styles is what you have to do to make a living.

GOULART: Why don’t we open it up now, if anyone has any questions in the audience?

GOULART: [to Lampert] The cover for the first issue of Flash Comics—did you do that? LAMPERT: Sheldon Moldoff. GOULART: Moldoff again? It’s in your style. It’s not his usual Raymond-esque... LAMPERT: He has many styles. Talking about styles: After the war I did work for DC Comics, but 90% in the humor vein. Then there was an issue of All-Star Comics, remember? When there was a problem, they’d say, “Harry, do an ‘Atom.’” So, I did an “Atom.” In one All-Star Comics book, there’s “The Atom,” and right after

FROM AUDIENCE: Thank you, Ron. You were saying, Harry, that, in “The Flash,” in both the Gold and Silver Age incarnations, there was somewhat more humor than there was in the average super-hero strips. Even at the beginning, you had things like Flash playing tennis with himself, and later—well, Gardner Fox himself would put people like Winky, Blinky, and Noddy, who were doppelgängers of the Three Stooges, in a lot of the early stories. And then, [in] the Silver Age, there were more subtle things like Gorilla City and covers like, “I have the strangest idea I’m turning into a puppet.” ANOTHER FROM AUDIENCE: The big-headed one.

Live Like A “King” (Left:) Lampert’s version of disguisemaster “The King” from Flash Comics #33 (Sept. 1942), probably repro’d from microfiche— hence not as sharp as we’d like. Script by Gardner Fox. Thanks to Jim Kealy for this and the accompanying scan. (Right:) Harry would just as soon have seen “The King” discontinued when he went into the military, but the feature was carried on with artist Jon L. Blummer, as per Flash Comics #35 (Nov. 1942). Script attributed to Fox. [TM & © DC Comics.]

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 2

Maybe This Is The “Red Death” Poe Wrote About? (Above:) A relatively small number of artists drew “The Flash” during the Golden Age years. One of those, mostly in the mid-1940s, was Martin Naydel, primarily a funny-animal cartoonist. This tier of panels is from the never-published “Justice Society of America” story “The Will of William Wilson,” scripted by Gardner Fox—and colored especially for A/E by Larry Guidry. [TM & © DC Comics.]

A Lampert By Any Other Name (Left & above:) Harry Lampert illustrated a 5-page “Atom” chapter in the “Justice Society” tale in All-Star Comics #34 (April-May 1947)—as well as the 5-page “Cotton-Top Katie” filler that directly followed it! (Curiously, he only signed the filler—as “Harrielle,” as in “Harry L.”) Often, he signed his full name to gag pages in DC comics. Repro’d from Ye Editor’s bound volumes. [TM & © DC Comics.]

The Flash: 60th Anniversary Panel

Flashes Of Two Ages This page from the con’s program book contained two original drawings done especially for it, by the co-creating artists of each rendition of “The Flash”: Carmine Infantino & Harry Lampert. [Flashes TM & © DC Comics.]

GOULART: By the way, you movie fans, Ving Fuller was [movie director] Samuel Fuller’s brother. FROM AUDIENCE: Mr. Infantino. I know you described it as just a living and whatnot, but did you have a preference at all in any of the things you’ve done? You were doing “Batman,” “Adam Strange,” “The Flash.” Was there any— INFANTINO: “Detective Chimp”! The “Batman” was my least favorite, because we were forced into that thing. The book was dying, and the publisher at the time, [Irwin] Donenfeld, called me and Schwartz in and said, “This thing has got six months to go.” It was selling about 8-9% in those days. So, they said to us, “You’ve got eight to nine months to turn it around. If not, it’s over.” Now, we started to turn it around, but we shouldn’t get the full credit, because I think—Dave? Was it a year or two later? DAVID SPURLOCK: [in audience] About a year and a half. [NOTE: Besides being a friend of Infantino’s, J. David Spurlock is the head of Vanguard Publications, which publishes numerous books reprinting vintage comics and would soon issue Infantino’s autobiography.]

FROM AUDIENCE: Big-headed Flash. [laughter] Even Mopey.... All these things would sort of turn up in Flash that usually wouldn’t turn up in a straight super-hero comic.... LAMPERT: Winky, Blinky, and Noddy, in my opinion, [were] not the creation of Gardner Fox but of Shelly Mayer. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Later on, I did “Winky, Blinky, and Noddy.” and my version of them was completely different from what you saw in “The Flash.” In “The Flash,” they are solid, rigid individuals drawn by an illustrator. And Winky, Blinky, and Noddy are definitely, I’ll swear by them, Shelly Mayer-created. [unintelligible]. I knew Shelly Mayer from way back. We started out together. We both went to George Washington High School. There was a cartoonist in Washington Harry Lampert & Hal Sherman Heights by the name of Ving Harry Lampert (he’s the one on Fuller. Ving Fuller did It Is to the left) at the ATC Con, talking Laugh in the [New York] Daily with another Golden Age artist, News, and both Shelly and I were Hal Sherman, who drew the early stories of “The Star-Spangled Kid” apprentices to Ving Fuller, and in Star Spangled Comics and Leadthat’s how we got to know each ing Comics. Photo courtesy of Joe other. Petrilak.

Flash” Of Two Stories (Above:) A climactic page by Lampert and scripter Gardner Fox from Flash Comics #2 (Feb. 1940), which saw that artist’s last work on the “Flash” feature he had co-created. Repro’d from the hardcover Golden Age Flash Archives, Vol. 1. [TM & © DC Comics.]

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 2

Clockwise Cuckoos An E.E. Hibbard “Flash” splash with Winky, Blinky, and Noddy, from Comic Cavalcade #10 (Spring 1945). All-American editor Mayer may have conceived “the Three Dimwits” as a way of bringing less manic/violent Three-Stooges-style comedy into the Scarlet Speedster’s stories, but this one, like most Flash/WB&N yarns, was probably scripted by “Flash” co-creator Gardner Fox. Thanks to Rod Beck. Harry Lampert drew this Flash-less “Winky, Blinky and Noddy” outing in All-American Comics #81 (Jan. 1943). Scripter unknown; may even have been gagster Harry himself. [TM & © DC Comics.] Carmine Infantino penciled the one and only Dimwits Silver Age appearance, in The Flash #117 (Dec. 1960). Inks by Joe Giella. Editor Julius Schwartz had Gardner Fox write this story partly due to requests from fan and regular letter-scribe Roy Thomas, who was later given the original art … but the mass readership voted thumbs down on the Three Dimwits. It was a beautiful art job, though. The tale’s splash was printed in A/E #132. Thanks to Bob Bailey. [TM & © DC Comics.]

The Flash: 60th Anniversary Panel

Think Before You Ink! (Left:) Carmine Infantino is credited with both penciling and inking this “Flash” tale from Comic Cavalcade #25 (Feb.-March 1948). Script probably by Robert Kanigher. Thanks to Dusty Miller & Eric Schumacher. (Right:) A “Detective Chimp” page from The Adventures of Rex the Wonder Dog #43 (Jan.-Feb. 1959). Full art by Infantino; script by John Broome. Ye Editor’s long wondered if perhaps one reason Carmine always referred to “Chimp” as his all-time favorite feature to draw was that Bobo’s human companion somewhat resembles the artist himself—as suggested by the caricature at right, done by his cartoonist friend Bill Crawford in the 1950s and printed in The Brave and the Bold #46 (Feb.-March 1963). A photo of writer John Broome—who wrote most of the first few years’ worth of Silver Age “Flash” stories, appears on p. 37. [Pages TM & © DC Comics; caricature © Bill Crawford or successors in interest.]

INFANTINO: A year and a half later, the TV show went right through the ceiling. So we should get partial credit. FROM AUDIENCE: What was the thinking of the “New Look” Batman with the circle [around the bat]?

Carmine changed Batman’s ears, changed his nose... what else? You redesigned the Batmobile. You and Julie created Batgirl. Seems like there was another change. Oh! The logo for the comic book.

INFANTINO: That was Schwartz. That was Julie’s idea.

INFANTINO: Yes.

SPURLOCK: Tell them what you did. What did you contribute to the “New Look”?

SPURLOCK: The new Batman logo where he’s kind of got [the cape] over his face. That was Carmine’s. So, there were a lot of changes in the “New Look.” Also, the natural style change. Carmine, although his natural orientation was kind of modernistic and design-oriented, was naturally much more realistic than what Bob Kane’s studio had been turning out with Shelly Moldoff and Bob Kane. And also the scripts—or editing by Julie—his direction was a return to the “detective” type of mentality. So it got less cartoony, more realistic. In a way, I see that as the bridge to kind of where it went when Neal Adams took over. That was the beginning of going from a more cartoony Batman, through the “New Look,” bridging to the ultimate, realistic Batman through Neal Adams.

INFANTINO: The covers. What I was doing was, I would create covers and Julie would write stories around them. We found it a very effective way to work. We’d create cliffhangers, and then he’d write stories around them. He and Gardner, and John Broome especially. SPURLOCK: Some of the greatest covers ever done, by the way. INFANTINO: Thank you. [applause] SPURLOCK: I’m working on a book with Carmine right now, and

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 2

INFANTINO: David, tell them about how I found Neal in the back room doing— SPURLOCK: Oh, you tell them that. INFANTINO: I was editing at the time, and we had a couple of people doing the “Batman.” I go into the bullpen—remember—where he was working. There was this little chubby guy sitting there drawing... what the hell character? TWO OR THREE FROM AUDIENCE: Jerry Lewis!

Golden Age Crossover (Above:) Lampert contributed the “Cotton-Top Katie” characters to the otherwise Alex Toth-drawn covers of Comic Cavalcade #23 (Oct.-Nov. 1947) and #27 (June-July 1948)—unless cartoonist/editor Sheldon Mayer was impishly (and flawlessly) imitating Lampert’s style. Thanks to the GCD. [TM & © DC Comics.]

INFANTINO: Jerry Lewis! And I said, “What the hell is he doing on this?” I took it out of his hands. I put him on “Batman” immediately, and that was the beginning of the whole [unintelligible]. He was great. FROM AUDIENCE: Didn’t he do “Deadman” first, and then he did “Batman” when he did the Brave and the Bold team-up with Deadman? INFANTINO: He... I think... I did the “Deadman” first. SPURLOCK: [Carmine] did the first “Deadman.” It was Arnold Drake and... FROM AUDIENCE: But then Neal Adams took that over and... INFANTINO: Yes! FROM AUDIENCE: He did that before he did “Batman.” INFANTINO: Before the “Batman”? FROM AUDIENCE: Yes. He did “Deadman” and “The Spectre.” INFANTINO: He used to con me out of stuff. He probably did. I don’t remember now. SPURLOCK: Yeah. Adams did a Brave and the Bold cover

Three To Get Ready… (Above:) We won’t get into the discussion between Carmine Infantino and a member of the panel’s audience as to the order in which Neal Adams did Jerry Lewis and super-hero covers and interiors. But here are three Adams covers from the same era (top to bottom): Strange Adventures #107 (Dec. 1967), featuring the third “Deadman” story (Infantino had penciled the first one, in #105).

Holy Handgun, Batman! This startlingly untypical page from the first “Batman/New Look” story actually shows the Caped Crusader wielding a pistol! From Detective Comics #327 (May 1964). Script by John Broome; pencils by Carmine Infantino; inks by Joe Giella. [TM & © DC Comics.]

Neal Adams Portrait of the legendary artist as a young man, circa 1967-68.

The Adventures of Jerry Lewis #104 (Jan.-Feb. 1968). The Brave and the Bold #79 (Aug.-Sept. 1968), which co-starred Batman and Deadman. [TM & © DC Comics.]

The Flash: 60th Anniversary Panel

“Let Them Eat Cake”—Round 1 The Flash’s “birthday cake.”

things, and sometimes for the best. I still think I like Ross more than I on “The Flash.” FROM AUDIENCE: Really? Why?

J. David Spurlock & Carmine Infantino in April 2000. David, head of Vanguard Publications, writes that the All Time Classic Con “was Carmine’s first advertised convention appearance since [he’d been] publisher at DC. To see him before that, one had to practically be paying tuition at the School of Visual Arts. We had actually held his autobiography from going to press for a bit, as I was determined to get a photo of Carmine and Kubert together to go with Joe’s foreword to the book, which we did at White Plains.” This photo was shot by Mark Witz, who was then Vanguard’s official photographer. Thanks to JDS.

INFANTINO: He was great. GOULART: Because he’s modest. [At this point, the panel is cut short when Joe Giella rolls in a cake to celebrate The Flash’s 60th anniversary. Golden and Silver Age “Flash” editor Julius Schwartz joins the panelists at that time—but apparently any further panel discussion, if it occurred, was not videotaped.]

for Boltinoff. Julie told me he saw that and liked it and said, “Okay, I’ll try him on some ‘Batman’ stuff.” INFANTINO: He was great. Is great. FROM AUDIENCE: Did you choose him to take over for you on “Deadman”? INFANTINO: Yes. In fact, I think he wanted to write it, too. Which I thought was a mistake, but... FROM AUDIENCE: Let me ask you this. You left The Flash to take the publisher job... INFANTINO: I was the editorial director. FROM AUDIENCE: Editorial director job, that’s right. So, with all deference to Ross Andru—who was a fine guy and a terrific artist—the style was such a radical change. Do you have any idea why Julie went with Ross and Mike instead of anybody else? INFANTINO: I think it was my choice. FROM AUDIENCE: Not to knock it. They’re terrific artists.... INFANTINO: I think Ross is terrific. You’ve got to remember: Everyone’s style is different. Everyone adds something to something. I used to get letters—“Who is this guy Adams?”—when I was drawing “Batman.” He did it better than me. So you take chances with

Fast But Not Furious Ross Andru & Mike Esposito with undocumented friend, in a pic provided some years back by Esposito. Ross is the one on our right.

One of the early The Flash issues drawn by the longtime team of Ross Andru (pencils) and Mike Esposito (inks) was #175 (Dec. 1967), showcasing the second Superman vs. Flash race. Script by E. Nelson Bridwell. Thanks to Bob Bailey. [TM & © DC Comics.]

ALL TIME CLASSIC NEW YORK COMIC BOOK CONVENTION PART

“The Big Three”

CARMINE INFANTINO, JOE KUBERT, & JULIUS SCHWARTZ Moderated by ROY THOMAS – Saturday, June 10, 2000 Transcribed by Sean Dulaney Videotaped by Marc Svensson

A/E

EDITOR’S INTRO: Perhaps the centerpiece of Joe Petrilak’s con was to be a pair of events featuring the Golden & Silver Age triumvirate of Infantino, Kubert, and Schwartz… and I was honored to be slated to preside over both of them. At some point, however, JP decided to drop the Saturday evening “R.F. Outcault Award” panel, in which those three worthies were to be presented with an award named for the creator of the Yellow Kid, and to give it out at the “Big Three” panel earlier that day… perhaps because he suspected that, after a whole day of conning, people were likely to go out to dinner at 6:30 instead of attending yet another panel. Marc Svensson filmed the talk, on a VHS taping that is © 2017 by him, and which he made available to Alter Ego; in addition, he identified several of the speakers from the audience, and we’ve included those IDs in this transcription….

The Way Of All “Flash” (Above:) The panel moderator and the “Big Three,” in a photo taken after Infantino’s 75th-birthday cake was brought in, midway through the proceedings. (L. to r.:) Roy Thomas, Carmine Infantino, Julius Schwartz, and Joe Kubert. Thanks to Craig Shutt. (Left:) The cover and lead splash page of Showcase #4 (Sept.-Oct. 1956) were both seen earlier this issue, but that still leaves the splash for the second “Flash” story therein, on which the panel trio had labored to good effect. This yarn was scripted by John Broome, penciled by Infantino, inked by Kubert, and edited by Schwartz. Thanks to Allen Ross. [Page TM & © DC Comics; videotape itself ©2017 Marc Svensson.]

ROY THOMAS: I want to introduce the three people, in case one or two people somehow think this is a Disney convention. Starting immediately to my left here is Carmine Infantino. [applause] In just a brief Reader’s Digest version of what he’s done—he’s been drawing comics since the 1940s when [editor] Shelly Mayer had these three guys come [into his office]—you and Frank Giacoia and Joe—and he said, “You guys go away. Go back to school, come back in a year and I’ll give you a job.” He did it. He’s been working ever since. CARMINE INFANTINO: [off mic] He hired Joe immediately. THOMAS: He hired him? Well, Joe didn’t want to go to school anyway. [laughter] But Carmine did it and it worked out for him. He started doing “Ghost Patrol,” “Johnny Thunder,” and he helped this girl called the Black Canary take over Johnny’s strip… then he started doing “Flash” and “Justice Society”… then those awful Western strips after that: “Trigger Twins,” that took over All-Star Comics from the Justice Society. He was doing great stuff…. Then, in 1956, [DC] had to try something new, so they decided they’d bring back “The Flash,” and Carmine was the penciler on that very first issue and a couple after that. Eventually, of course, Carmine became DC’s editor-in-chief, and then publisher….

“The Big Three”

Back In A Flash! Infantino, Kubert, and Schwartz were busy as beavers in Flash Comics #86 (Aug. 1947)—covering, between them, all four major features in the issue! Julie, of course, was story editor, under Sheldon Mayer. (Clockwise from top left:) Infantino penciled his first-ever “Johnny Thunder” assignment (the tale that introduced Black Canary, as written by Robert Kanigher and inked by Joe Giella)… He both penciled and inked his also-first-ever “Ghost Patrol” adventure (from a script by John B. Wentworth)… …while the already-veteran Kubert, who was all of 20 years old at the time, did full-art chores on the “Hawkman” story “The Valley of the Purple Pilgrim”; scripter uncertain. (In addition, in that same issue, Joe inked Lee Elias’ pencils on the cover and “Flash” exploit. And, just to make Flash #86 an All Time Classic Con special, “Flash” co-creator Harry Lampert drew two pages of gag cartoons therein!) Thanks to Al Dellinges. [TM & © DC Comics.]

The next person over here… that’s Julie Schwartz. [applause] SCHWARTZ: [unintelligible] THOMAS: Okay, Julie… we’ll go to the inker first then. [referring to Kubert] This guy’s an inker. [laughter] Never pencils anything. He just happened to be hanging around the office saying [comical voice] “Gimme something to do” one day in 1956, and they said, “Well, we’ve got this ‘Flash’ story….” Before that, when he was about three, [laughter] Joe Kubert was doing “Volton” and “Black Cat’ and a lot of stuff that— [responding to unintelligible comment from Kubert] You’re right, Joe. Even I don’t like that stuff that much. But within a couple of years, he started doing “Hawkman” and such. Whatever he thinks about it now, it was great stuff for its day, and he only got better as time went on. Then he went off to do Tor and various things at St. John’s… “Viking Prince” at DC. Then he got hooked up with the war books, in particular “Sgt. Rock,” “Enemy Ace,” things

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 3

Weisinger started what could be called the first science-fiction fanzine. They were part of the first science-fiction convention in 1939. And also, as one of the very first, if not the first, science-fiction agents… SCHWARTZ: The first! THOMAS: All right. The first, Julie. [laughs] He sold stories of many good writers... Alfred Bester and many others. He sold Ray Bradbury’s first story. I don’t know what happened to that kid. SCHWARTZ: His first 70 stories. THOMAS: [jokingly] Yeah, whatever happened to him? SCHWARTZ: He had a stroke, you know? He’s in a wheelchair. THOMAS: [seriously] I didn’t know that. The last time I saw him was a few years ago in South Carolina. Also, Julie is the only person, I think, who ever agented a story for the reclusive, strange H.P. Lovecraft. In fact, I think it’s actually two, one of which you got cheated out of the commission on. SCHWARTZ: How do you know that? THOMAS: You told me. Everything I know, you told me. And they were two of the best, if you know [Lovecraft’s] work: The Shadow Out of Time, and At the Mountains of Madness.

The Hawk & The Rock For a powerful potpourri of Kubert-drawn images, order a copy of the still-available Alter Ego #116, dedicated his life and art, from “Volton” through his last work. We’ve chosen to showcase two of his DC pieces across the ages: a splash page from Flash Comics #76 (Oct. 1946) and the cover of Our Army at War #143 (June 1964). “Hawkman” script attributed to Gardner Fox; Schwartz was the story editor. Thanks for the scans, respectively, to Al Dellinges and Bill Schelly. Man of Rock, Bill’s masterful biography of Kubert, is still in print from Fantagraphics, along with two Schelly-edited collections of his comic art. [TM & © DC Comics.]

SCHWARTZ: They were rejected by Weird Tales. THOMAS: But then you got him into Astounding, which probably paid better anyway.

of that sort… plus doing newspaper strips… and, um, I heard he started a school or something. And, thanks to this gentleman here [Infantino], he became an editor. So I would like you to say hello to Joe Kubert. [applause] Now, I’ve got to talk about Julie. Julie… Julie’s, ah… SCHWARTZ: Careful now. THOMAS: All right, all right. I’m waiting for your book to come out, Julie. [NOTE: RT refers to Schwartz’s forthcoming autobiography, Man of Two Worlds, which actually had just been released.] If you say any bad things about me in there I’ll… [laughter] Julie Schwartz got into comics in 1944. By the time he did, he already had a career that would get him [mentioned] in science-fiction history books even if he had never touched comic books. [Schwartz interrupts, but remarks are unintelligible.] He and Mort

Men Of Many Worlds (Clockwise from left:) The cover of Julius Schwartz’s 2000 biography Man of Two Worlds: My Life in Science Fiction and Comics, co-written with Brian M. Thomsen—juxtaposed with photos of Weird Tales (and, thanks to Julie, Astounding Stories) author H.P. Lovecraft, and of Schwartz with SF author Ray Bradbury at the 2001 San Diego Comic-Con; latter pic courtesy of Jeff Gelb. The bio’s cover photo was taken by Beth Gwinn. Sadly, Julie was the first of this panel’s trio to pass away, in 2004; issues #38 & 40 of Alter Ego are largely devoted to him. [Cover © the respective copyright holders; photo © Beth Gwinn.]

“The Big Three”

SCHWARTZ: Weird Tales paid a penny upon publication. Astounding paid a penny on [unintelligible] THOMAS: So, I would like you to welcome Julie Schwartz. [applause] Now, this is supposed to be about three legends. We have a number of legends here [at this con], but these are definitely three of the greatest. And I would like to ask if there is anything they want to say before we turn things over to some of the questions you might want to ask them. Carmine? CARMINE INFANTINO: No, let Julie do the talking. THOMAS: Julie? He’s so shy. [off-mic banter before Schwartz takes the mic] SCHWARTZ: I’ll tell stories about Joe. He dated the girl I married. Dated her before I did. And Carmine happened to blunder into the office. Shelly kicked him from his office to my office: “Give him a script.” I think it was “Ghost Patrol.” I talk about it in the book. THOMAS: What book is that, Julie? INFANTINO: There’s a book about you? No kidding! [laughter, since Schwartz has a copy of the book propped up in front of him.] SCHWARTZ: Man of Two Worlds: My Life in Science Fiction and Comics. You say I was an agent. They say, “Who were you an agent for?” So I say, “Ray Bradbury. Robert Bloch. Alfred Bester. Leigh Brackett, who wrote The Empire Strikes Back [screenplay], among other things. And those are only the “B’s.” For the “L’s,” it was just H.P. Lovecraft. That’s it. JOE KUBERT: They all became successful after they left you. [laughter] SCHWARTZ: Anyway, those are the kinds of stories I tell. THOMAS: Joe, do you have something to say?

What Did You Say Forry Was A Fan Of, Again? Forrest J. Ackerman, founder of the groundbreaking horror-movie magazine Famous Monsters of Filmland, probably when he was a guest at a science-fiction convention; if not, this photo from the Internet is a lot harder to explain. At right is the cover of the first issue of FMF (1958), which A/E’s editor got reprimanded for bringing into his high school senior English class. Clearly, Miss Jenkins was thinking: “This is the guy who keeps winning my English Award?” [Cover TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]

KUBERT: No. SCHWARTZ: Thanks for coming, everyone. THOMAS: I like being on panels with Julie, because it relieves me of all responsibility. [laughs] So, we’ll just take questions…. [to audience] What would you like to know? Yes, Mr. Hulk there. AUDIENCE MEMBER: [probably wearing a Hulk T-shirt] I didn’t realize that Ray Bradbury had had a stroke until you mentioned it. SCHWARTZ: He had a stroke about a month or two ago. But he’s doing better. A friend of mine called me from Akron, Ohio, and said he’s seen Ray there, in a wheelchair. I said, “What was he doing in Ohio?” He’s got a series of plays called The Wonderful World of Ray Bradbury or something like that, and he was there to promote it. He also was in court about a month ago. Forrest J. Ackerman—who, in case you don’t know, is the Number One Science-Fiction Fan—was suing a fellow who puts out a magazine called Famous Monsters of Filmland. Forry did that for 30 or 40 years and it was discontinued. He [the other fellow] took it over and they had a disagreement over who would do what, so he [Ackerman] sued him for, like, $350,000, and he had a number of important people come a testify for him, including Ray Bradbury, and Forry won the case. But he won’t be awarded any money until the appeal.

That Crazy “Adam Strange” Stuff! (Left:) Cover of Eastern Color’s Buck Rogers #4 (1942, no month), drawn by editor Steven A. Douglas in the mode of original artist Dick Calkin, complete with jetpack. [TM & © Dille Trust.] (Right:) The Carmine Infantino/Bernard Sachs cover of Mystery in Space #53 (Aug. 1959) fronted the first issue of that title featuring “Adam Strange,” after three Showcase appearances penciled by Mike Sekowsky. Thanks to the Grand Comics Database for both scans. [TM & © DC Comics.]

Forry is “Mr. Science Fiction.” The Number One Fan in the country. If you’re ever out in Los Angeles, California, I recommend you look up Ackerman in the phone book. He likes to coin words. He doesn’t live in a house. He lives in a mansion, and therefore it’s the Ackermansion. Ackerman. Mansion. He doesn’t live in Hollywood, California. He lives in Hollywood, Karloffornia. He knew Boris Karloff very well. THOMAS: Anyone else have any questions for the Forry Ackerman panel? [laughter]

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 3

Man Of Green Fables Among the discarded Golden Age art liberated from the DC offices in the latter 1960s, not all of it by the much-appreciated Marv Wolfman, were a number of rows (tiers) of artwork from an unpublished mid-1940s “Justice Society of America” story, “The Will of William Wilson,” scripted by Gardner Fox. Much of that art has appeared in previous issues of A/E and in the four volumes of TwoMorrows’ All-Star Companion. These two panels of the “Green Lantern” chapter, drawn by Paul Reinman, were specially colored for A/E by Larry Guidry. [TM & © DC Comics.]

AUDIENCE MEMBER (JOE LATINO): I have a question for all three of you, because you’ve all been involved to some degree with “Adam Strange.” Adam Strange, I told Mr. Infantino earlier, is one of my favorite characters. In hindsight, he appears to be a Buck Rogers clone, and I’m wondering whether he was a conscious Buck Rogers swipe—and whether or not DC ever got sued by the Dille company because of the similarities like the jetpack, or if there were enough differences… INFANTINO: We had jetpacks all along. KUBERT: Because Julie invented them. [laughter] SCHWARTZ: [referring to the fan’s question] No. No relation between the two of them. There are limited things you can do in sciencefiction. If you go to the moon, for example, there has to be a gravity situation, an oxygen situation—these don’t change. And the only way we could think of flying in those days was by rockets. So that’s the way it happened. THOMAS: It also had to be influenced partly by Edgar Rice Burroughs, who, though he didn’t use a rocket pack, had to influence “Adam Strange” to a certain extent. Of course that goes back another decade or two before even Buck Rogers. INFANTINO: [pointing to Schwartz] He created the character [Adam Strange]. SCHWARTZ: Editorially I created it. I worked it out with Gardner Fox. [overlapping talk as the audience member starts speaking again] LATINO: —any of the adventures of Buck Rogers…? SCHWARTZ: Uh, no. INFANTINO: He’s hung up on Buck Rogers. [laughter] LATINO: You’re right. I am. The other question I have goes to the original art. I keep on hearing all this art was destroyed during the ’50s. Yet, lo and behold—and I assume you gentlemen are aware of this—the Showcase, I believe, #19 cover is known to exist. That’s the second Adam Strange cover, I believe, with a giant pendulum. How is it that some of this

art seems to be— SCHWARTZ: There were probably thieves at DC Comics. I wouldn’t be surprised. For example, in production, when they were ready to get rid of all the artwork, which we had no reason to believe it would be of any value, it was piled up to here. So, in the production department, there were two fellows named Len Wein and Marv Wolfman, among others, that they told to cut them up. Now, Len and Marv were very careful. When they got a [page] with a six-panel grid, they would cut it where it could be pasted back together. All the other artwork was destroyed. THOMAS: I don’t know if Len did that, but Marv certainly did. Yeah. SCHWARTZ: But some of the artwork may have been taken out of the office by some other means. By taken, I mean stolen. INFANTINO: There was a story, though, that Neal Adams told in some magazine recently, that when I became editor, he came to me and insisted he wanted his artwork back. He claims he told me to go in and see [publisher Irwin] Donenfeld before they cut it up. The only problem with this story is Donenfeld wasn’t there when I talked about giving artwork back. So that’s a whole different ballgame. THOMAS: That was the ’70s already…. Neal was one of those who was always pushing to get the artwork back… and I think it was Jim Warren who started doing it with Creepy and helped push all the rest of us. [In the early ’70s] I was the one pushing at Marvel, although Stan was interested, too. [Publisher Martin Goodman’s] argument always was, if you give these artists their artwork back, they’re going to go sell it to South Africa or South America or somewhere, and they’re going to be able to print all these comics and they won’t have to pay royalties. So they figured if they cut it all up or just gave away little pieces of it, then they couldn’t sell it to foreign countries. That was the excuse I heard for the first several years. And even those last few days before we started handing the artwork back, they were still kind of dragging their feet about doing it. Joe?

“The Big Three”

KUBERT: I think that this should kind of be put into context. For years, when Carmine and I started, none of the artists even asked for the artwork. So to say the artwork was stolen, I think, is a misnomer. Nobody wanted it back. As a matter of fact, the publishers themselves didn’t think it was worth the value of storing [it] in a warehouse.... I think most artists had the ability to get the artwork back if they wanted it, but nobody asked. I never asked for my work. I always felt, since I first started, that I sold a job. The job was purchased by the publisher. It was his. And it was just not forthcoming to me because he paid me for it. That was the exchange. I exchanged the artwork for the money he paid me. If some guys were given the job of cutting the original pages up—this thing with Marv and Len, I don’t know how true that is. THOMAS: It’s true. Marv tells it cheerfully. KUBERT: Well, regardless, if they were in a position to salvage the work, God bless them. They should take it. Because nobody else wanted it. So, now at this late stage where now we’re looking at it and saying, “Gee, it’s worth so much money. All this stuff was stolen.” No, it’s not. So, I just wanted to clear that up. SCHWARTZ: Just out of curiosity, what is the earliest art piece you have of yours?

KUBERT: I must tell you that I did retain some of my work. FROM AUDIENCE: Well, Julie was giving it away in the letter columns. SCHWARTZ: Incidentally, I should point out—on my behalf— when I ran the fan mail department, I wanted the reader to write good letters. INFANTINO: You gave it away? SCHWARTZ: That’s right. As encouragement. I said the best letterer would get the artwork for the story. The second-best [letter] would get the cover. [smattering of laughter] Of course, I was originally an agent, so I said the third best letter would get the story [ = script]. I don’t know if anyone saves manuscripts these days. KUBERT: I’d like to add that there were guys like Hal Foster, who did the Sunday pages, that original art… He gave them away! When someone would send in and ask a request. Which are anywhere upwards of $50,000 a shot! So, who the heck knew? If we had known that they were so valuable, I might have framed Julie for that. [laughter] SCHWARTZ: No comment. AUDIENCE MEMBER: This is a true story. I worked there for a very brief time in the late ’70s, and I remember a day that Curt Swan came in with all the work they had given back to him, and he was just handing it out in the office to anybody who wanted it. That’s how I got my Curt Swan pages! So the attitude then was different about it. THOMAS: Are there any questions about the work these guys did, besides cutting it up into pieces? [laughter] AUDIENCE MEMBER (MIKE CATRON): Carmine, Joe inked you on the first “Flash” story… KUBERT: I inked his artwork. I never inked him. [laughter] CATRON: I apologize. You inked Carmine’s pencils on the first “Flash” story. And if I’m not mistaken, I believe Carmine worked with you on the Jesse James series for Avon. I was just curious of your respective opinions as partners in the artistic process. KUBERT: Carmine’s got to tell that story… but first, I would like to mention that the relationship I had working with Carmine—there was an understanding between us. Carmine did the pencils. When the pencils were finished, it became my job, and what I did with it was my responsibility. Carmine never stood over my shoulders saying, “Don’t do this” or “Do this.” His work was so complete and I learned so much, really, working on his pencils, it was a pleasure to work on. [burst of laughter] No, seriously. It was a pleasure working on his stuff. Always was until that first “Flash.” The first “Flash” that he did, the first “Flash” we did together for Flash Comics… the big deal… SCHWARTZ: Showcase.

The James Boys—Carmine & Joe! The Comic Book Plus site (for public domain comics) lists this story from Jesse James #7 (May 1952) as having been penciled by Joe Kubert and inked by Carmine Infantino—which is apparently backward from the way the guys actually divided the work—but we’re just glad to have it available! The scripter, in any event, is unidentified. [© the respective copyright holders.]

KUBERT: The big deal, whatever the hell it was… [laughter] …was really a pleasure to work on. Carmine has the capabilities, as all of you who’ve seen his work probably know, of designing a page and telling a story that is absolutely… It was terrific. He had, even then, the ability to design a page, to put out a page so it looked interesting to the eye before he even started. He made you want to read the story. That’s what cartooning is all about. That’s everything that we’re trying to do, is to tell a story in picture form. And so working on Carmine’s pencils and inking was a pleasure for me. THOMAS: So, how come you quit after one issue?

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 3

KUBERT: That’s true. This book we’re talking about was a whole book. 32 pages. He penciled the whole damn thing in a day, two days. It must have taken me a day, two days to ink it. INFANTINO: We started competing to see who could do it faster. THOMAS: [to Carmine] I think you and Gil Kane were partnered briefly for… INFANTINO: No. THOMAS: Or at least you worked together where one penciled and one inked… INFANTINO: I never worked with Gil Kane. I don’t know where that story came from. THOMAS: I’ve got some pages that supposedly you penciled and he inked. But I don’t mean to say you were [literal] partners… INFANTINO: Was it from where we were teenagers? THOMAS: No, a little later. INFANTINO: I don’t remember doing anything with him. Maybe it’s true. I don’t know. THOMAS: I don’t think it was a long-lived project, in any event. He told me one story that you taught him to drive. INFANTINO: To drive? THOMAS: I just have this one sentence in an interview I did with him about 6 months before he died. He said, “Carmine even taught me to drive.” That’s the end of it. I was wondering if… INFANTINO: I don’t think I even had a car then. [laughter] SCHWARTZ: He meant driving him crazy.

“Lovers Are Very Special People” Dr. Michael J. Vassallo provided this splash page from Timely/Marvel’s Lovers #42 (Oct. 1952), which Gil Kane once told him he’d done with Infantino. Doc V. feels this story was definitely penciled by Infantino and probably inked by Kane. Later, he showed the former page to Carmine, who confirmed that he and Gil had worked on a number of “Atlas” stories during that period. On other occasions, however, Infantino insisted that he and GK had never worked together, though on the 2000 panel he quickly hedged his blanket denial. (There was bad blood between the pair, going back some years.) A photo of Kane appears on p. 52. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

FROM AUDIENCE: Ask Julie. INFANTINO: Joe had gotten… I think, Joe, you had called Avon about the Jesse James thing. The guy at Avon—what was his name? The editor there? He called us in and he said would we do a book called Jesse James for him? I was very busy at the time, but they paid a lot of money. SCHWARTZ: What was a lot of money in those days? KUBERT: $60 a page? INFANTINO: Just about that. It was more than DC was paying. [laughter] So I said, “Joe, I think I can do it in one day. See if you can ink it in one day.” Well, I did it so fast, I had guns in different hands all the time. Different hats. [laughter] Everything else. And he beat me. I think it was a day and a half for me. You did the inking in a day. He did it so fast, we didn’t even put borders on the panels.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: You know, looking at the evolution of the styles of Joe and Carmine over the years, I find it fascinating from the ’40s, ’50s, ’60s, and so on—and looking at the relatively low page rate in the comics—what was your motivation to continue learning and leaping forward with your styles that you presented to the public? INFANTINO: Hunger. [laughter] SCHWARTZ: No, Carmine forgets. He demanded at one point, “No matter what another penciler gets, I must get $1 more!” I remember. [unintelligible crosstalk off-mic] KUBERT: You must remember, too, that when we were getting $60 a page, that was a lot of money. That was a lot of dough. So you have to equate what they were paying at that time. I figured that if I ever made $10,000 a year… that’s it! That would be nirvana. I would never have to make more money than that! INFANTINO: I think that we’ve all discovered that doesn’t hold true today. He always bought big convertibles with that money. [laughter] AUDIENCE MEMBER (RICH MORRISSEY): Julie and Joe, you never worked together all that much after the ’50s. I know you [Kubert] did several stories for him in the science-fiction books. And then when you [Schwartz] first revived “Hawkman,” Joe was the artist, and I thought that looked terrific. But then when “Hawkman” got a regular series and then a regular book, you [Kubert] weren’t the artist. Murphy Anderson was. You were, I think, the first artist to leave a revival. KUBERT: That’s a good question, because there were some artists

“The Big Three”

Kanigher… It’s hard for me to keep track of the time. [laughter] But, yeah, I was already doing a lot of war stuff with Bob Kanigher. Bob Kanigher was the editor at that time, and Carmine became the publisher at DC... INFANTINO: Editor. KUBERT: Editor? INFANTINO: First editor. Editorial director. KUBERT: Well, whatever the hell the title was... [laughter] he was in charge, and he asked me if I would take on the editorial responsibilities, and I did. Almost not, because he told me I might have to wear a jacket and a tie and I almost turned down the whole goddamned job. [laughter] But it was then that I came in and did the editorial stuff that I was involved with. Mostly with the war stuff.

(Left:) When a second three-issue “Hawkman” tryout was launched in The Brave and the Bold #42 (April-May 1962), Joe Kubert was back! But, when the Winged Wonder finally got his own series (originally in Mystery in Space) a few months after #44, the art assignment would be turned over to Murphy Anderson. [TM & © DC Comics.]

CATRON: [from audience] During the Korean War, there were a lot of war books about Korea. A lot came from Marvel, that I know of. I realize things were different in the ’60s, but what was the attitude about doing Vietnam books during the Vietnam War? [to Carmine] You were editorial director and publisher at that time. What was your attitude about it? What direction did you give Joe? And I know Joe was involved with the newspaper strip [The Green Beret]...

(Right:) However, Joe was always ready, willing, and definitely able to draw the Feathered Fury for fans. Here’s a sample from a limited-run edition he had printed of a drawing intended to be sent to folks who contacted him. Thanks to the Palantine News Network. [Hawkman TM & © DC Comics.]

INFANTINO: We kept away from it pretty much. There was an attitude—I think most of us felt, most of the country felt—like it was a civil war. “What the hell are we doing in this thing?” So we didn’t touch that war. I don’t think we did anything.

Still Hawking His Wares

like Carmine who would latch on and be content to stay in one place. He was getting plenty of work in one place and didn’t move around too much. Others, like myself—I was constantly jumping around and trying everything and anything that looked better to me, that looked like it would advance me a little more. Which Carmine also did, but he would find his spot a little more easily than I did. So when I would be working for Julie and doing a job for him, if something else came along in the interim or that I could schedule for myself that looked like it might be an opening… You have to understand, too, we all worked—[to Carmine] I don’t know if you were working freelance at the time—but, most of the years, I was working freelance. The only security that a freelance person has is the job that he’s finishing, the job that’s on the table waiting for him, and one in the mail that’s coming to him. That’s the only security you have. So you have to make sure those jobs are coming in all of the time. There cannot be an interim or two or three weeks or a month to go by where you have no income coming in. Especially if you have a family and kids and so on. So I was constantly looking around for additional work, for more work. If Julie didn’t have anything for me right away, I would jump in or do something else. Very often I would come in with a job for Julie. Julie said, “Are you free for something?” or “Something is coming up. Can you do this?” I would jump in and do that, and that was the way it worked. THOMAS: And weren’t you already busy with the war books, even by then? SCHWARTZ: He was just getting started [on them], I think. KUBERT: Yeah, I think I was. Early ’50s, I was getting with Bob

AUDIENCE MEMBER: You had the one series, “Lt. Hunter,” set in Vietnam. SCHWARTZ: I think the criteria was if the book sold or not. INFANTINO: That’s it. And there was no market for that stuff. Definitely no market. But World War II was a big market for us. It was such a black-&-white war. There was nothing in between. That was the difference between that and Vietnam or Korea and the rest. SCHWARTZ: The difference was, of course, World War II was over—you could do anything you wanted. But you really couldn’t be fanciful about things going on over in Vietnam. Because you’d read the newspaper and say, “What’s going on in our magazine is crazy.” World War II, you could have “Sgt. Rock” and all that goes with it. THOMAS: Remember, actual war comics set in World War II weren’t that popular during World War II. INFANTINO: It wasn’t until we did that German thing. “Enemy Ace.” THOMAS: That was World War I. INFANTINO: There was an attitude against that, too. RICH MORRISSEY: [from audience] Wasn’t Boy Commandos a big seller? I think Carmine worked on that for a while. INFANTINO: That was Simon and Kirby. They did that before they went into the service. Joe [Kubert] even inked some of those. But in those days, anything was selling. No matter what you did.

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 3

MORRISSEY: [from audience] Didn’t you draw some of the later “Boy Commandos” stories? I mean, after Simon and Kirby were mostly working for Harvey, didn’t you draw some “Boy Commandos” stories? INFANTINO: I don’t think I ever touched that strip. THOMAS: It ran into, what, the late ’40s? But its heyday was the war. Yes?

There’s A Star Spangled Cover Waving Somewhere! Kubert’s iconic “Enemy Ace” cover for Star Spangled War Stories #138 (April-May 1968). Many of the artist’s (and of writer/editor Robert Kanigher’s) fans consider that series some of their best work. [© DC Comics.]

the sales not good, or do you have any idea?

but I’m a huge fan of Joe Kubert’s “Hawkman”… any period he ever did it. And I miss Tor. But just as good as anything else he did, I think—he’s one of the very small handful of people who ever touched Tarzan and did anything good with it. Joe Kubert would be up there in the top group of people. [applause] Writing, drawing, adapting... When I took over [the strip] at Marvel, it was depressing, because there was no way you could follow an act like Joe. Carmine, was that one of your acquisitions? I know the unpleasant times we had at Marvel later with Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc. I’d like to hear about DC’s dealings with Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc. INFANTINO: We had an overseas publisher at the time, and Burroughs was negotiating with them to put out the book, and there were some kinds of problems with them. They didn’t like the artwork that was going on over there. They called me over and asked if we would at DC be interested in doing Tarzan. I said yes, but they said, “One condition. We have to approve every page of artwork.” Though I knew he was going to do the book, I said, “That’s out of the question. Either we get the book now, or we don’t

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Going back some years to “Enemy Ace,” which I think was a brilliant piece of work, I think there were seven or eight of them before you stopped it. What happened? Were

KUBERT: I think that Bob Kanigher was the writer and did a magnificent job writing the story. Bob had also, during that interim, gotten ill. So I took it over, and taking it over meant that I couldn’t do the artwork for it. Where it all comes apart is that, once you lose the momentum on a book in terms of getting it out and having the consistency as far as the writer and artist is concerned, it will hurt that book. I think that happened, along with the fact that it is some inexplicable, unexplainable kind of thing that occurs—it just didn’t sell. It just didn’t generate enough sales to continue. INFANTINO: And also, I dumped a lot of responsibility on him when I made him editor at that time. Because he wanted to draw. Wanted to draw more than anything else. And he knew that he had to give up quite a bit of drawing, so he thought about it before he did it. And he knew I needed him badly at that time, so he said yes, for which I’m grateful, because he was a terrific editor.

(Above:) Carmine said he didn’t recall that he’d “ever touched” DC’s “Boy Commandos” feature, but it seems fairly definite that he penciled at least three stories and several covers of its post-World War II version in its own title. The inker of the Infantino-penciled story for Boy Commandos #32 (March-April 1949) is unknown. Thanks to Dusty Miller.

THOMAS: I want to ask about Tarzan. Because, I don’t know about the rest of you,

(Left:) Clearly, Carmine didn’t count this Boy Commandos cover that he penciled, and Joe Orlando inked, for the Nov.-Dec. 1973 second issue of a reprint edition of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby’s original World War II adventures. [TM & © DC Comics.]

Boys Will Be Commandos!

“The Big Three”

heavy, and the artists would get angry with me because [unintelligible]. And Joey liked to do everything himself. I wanted him to, but we had to share him and I needed him on editorial, so... THOMAS: I remember when you lightened your load on Tarzan. You could tell it was still a Joe Kubert book even though you didn’t take any art credit—you were still on there as editor—but the layouts were still Joe Kubert. It was this Filipino, that Filipino, doing beautiful work on it, but it was Joe Kubert storytelling, so we figured you were doing breakdowns for them. And then, of course, Frank Thorne did some nice work for you there on Korak, Son of Tarzan. KUBERT: Frank is a fantastic artist.

Perhaps Tarzan’s Greatest Adventure— At Least In Comic Books

get it at all.” I told them, “I’m sure you’ll be happy with the artwork.” And they said, “If we’re not, what do we do? Turn it back?” I said, “Sure.” They saw the first issue and went out of their minds, never bothered us again. [laughter]

(Left:) Another limited-edition sketch by Joe, this one of Lord Greystoke with his jungle weapon of choice—well, one of them, anyway. [Tarzan TM & © Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc.] (Right:) Kubert’s cover for DC’s Tarzan #236 (April 1975) demonstrated once again that he was one of the best artists in the comics business for drawing wild animals. [TM & © Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc.]

THOMAS: Joe, how did you feel about doing Tarzan? Was it something that you really wanted to do? I know that when I tried to get John Buscema to do it, John didn’t really want to do Tarzan. What about you? KUBERT: Well, Carmine knew this was something I really wanted to do. Carmine’s and my relationship goes way, way back. I’ve been married close to 50 years now, and Carmine was an usher at my wedding. So our relationship goes way, way back. When we started, there were three... “gods,” so to speak, in our business. One was [Hal] Foster, one was [Milt] Caniff, and the third was [Alex] Raymond. Foster was the one that I really adored. Especially the Tarzan. That probably had more to do with me getting into this business than anything, because looking at that work made me want to do that same kind of stuff. So when the opportunity came to do this, it was great for me, and I loved getting into it. What I did was, I went through all 23 [of Burroughs’] Tarzan books again. I bought all of his books. Reread them. Got into it again. Studied and restudied and reread Foster’s stuff, because there was an element in there that I wanted to inject into what I did, that thrilled me when I was a kid when I read it the first time around. So it was a great pleasure doing it. The only bad part was I couldn’t do it enough. After the fifth or sixth book, I was breaking down the stories and sending them to the Filipino artists to do. And they were great. But... INFANTINO: [off-mic] …His editorial notes started to get very

THOMAS: So you had some nice books. And, of course, you also had books with various people like Mike Kaluta and others. Murphy Anderson doing “John Carter.” INFANTINO: Bernie Wrightson. We had great talent through that whole period. [NOTE: Actually, Wrightson didn’t work on any of the ERB material, but it was during this period that he and writer Len Wein debuted Swamp Thing.]

THOMAS: So they didn’t bother you any more? The Burroughs people? Not after that first time? INFANTINO: No. They saw his first job and I never heard another word from them. Period. But there was no way they were going to pick somebody [else]. Joe was the target. Joe was it. Nobody else. And that’s the way it was. AUDIENCE MEMBER: It’s so very nice to see all three of you together in the same place. It was a pleasure meeting you and getting your autographs. I just wanted to ask something I hadn’t asked yet. You knew the market audience was children. When you drew and did your artwork, were you drawing for children, or were you drawing for adults? INFANTINO: You should talk to the editor. He’s the one who established the whole thing. SCHWARTZ: You never thought of it that way. We were putting out magazines for 8- to 12-year olds, which was the period in the ’40s. From then on, the age just kept getting higher and higher. But we didn’t particularly aim. We just tried to tell a good story. It had to be written well and it had to be illustrated well, because you weren’t sure. We hardly did any surveys. We didn’t know who was reading the magazines. All we knew was, in the ’40s it was 8- to 12-year olds. That’s all we knew. Then we went on to other things. We had no marketing. KUBERT: All the time Carmine was editing, I never heard Carmine say, “Focus your work” towards any particular age group or a particular group of readers. The way I approached it, and I think

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 3

Cover Stories Two covers singled out for mention by Julie Schwartz (plus one by moderator Roy Thomas), among the many that the DC editor would think up (working with either a writer or an artist) and then have a story scripted around: The Flash #163 and Batman #183 (both Aug. 1966—that must’ve been a helluva month!) and The Flash #171 (June 1967). The first two are by the Infantino/Giella team, the latter by Infantino & Anderson. Thanks to the GCD. [TM & © DC Comics.]

Carmine approached it as well, was stuff had to be interesting to us. The stuff had to look right and tell… SCHWARTZ: That was the way I edited. It had to appeal to me. I never knew who the reader was, really. I was the reader… and I remembered what I liked when I was younger. AUDIENCE MEMBER: That was my next question: whether or not you read the stories you were publishing, and did you like them? I guess the answer to that is yes. You were genuinely interested. SCHWARTZ: Oh, yes. If you didn’t like the stories you were editing, you were in the wrong business. I could hardly wait to plot. Especially with Gardner Fox coming in at 10:00 o’clock in the morning, or thereabouts, and Carmine would have already designed the cover. We looked at the cover and said, “How did this crazy situation occur?” My favorite cover was for The Flash, by the way. I hope Carmine remembers. He came up with a beautiful… It simply showed a stark close-up of The Flash, holding his hand up towards the reader like a traffic cop. It had a red background. And the big balloon said, “STOP! Don’t pass this magazine by! My life depends on it!” [laughter and applause] I was with John Broome, who looked at it and worked out a story, but when that came out it was my favorite cover. And invariably sometimes you’d come up with no covers at all. I mean, once in a while Carmine would come up with a really crazy cover. Remember doing the Batman? Campy, campy. Batman and Robin watching television. Watching the Batman television show. We had to figure out that one. THOMAS: My favorite one was where The Flash was part of the sidewalk and everyone was walking on him. You must’ve been embarrassed by that one, because you disposed of it within two panels of the story. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Should’ve put that in the memoirs. I remember how that happened. Shelly Mayer [once] called us in and asked, “How do you guys plot?” I said, “Well, I like to think of a narrative

hook. Because my induction into science-fiction all began when I read a science-fiction story in which the opening line was as follows: ‘It all began when the clock on the Metropolitan Tower started to run backwards.’” Now, that’s a narrative hook. You’ve got to read. My whole life has been based on narrative hooks, covers and so on. You have to grab the reader and keep on going. That’s still my philosophy. I’ve often started to read a story, mainly science-fiction, but if I don’t get grabbed by the first paragraph, I don’t keep on reading. I’ve got to be grabbed. The covers were simply narrative hooks. That’s all it was. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Of course, what’s great about your work is that you blended the two mediums of art and literature together, which is what makes everything you’ve done so great. So, science-fiction was your background and your interest? SCHWARTZ: Oh, yes. Still is. THOMAS: Oh, and bridge. SCHWARTZ: Well, bridge… unfortunately, I haven’t played since John Broome died. My best writer. John Broome was my best writer, my best friend, and the best man at my wedding. Of course, he died last year [1999]. Thank the good Lord he persuaded the gentleman over there [points to Rich Morrissey] to have John Broome, who lived in Japan and his wife lived in Paris—they didn’t get together very often—to come to the San Diego Comic-Con. The San Diego people wouldn’t invite him. They didn’t think John Broome was important enough. Finally, these fellas came up with the money to fly him back. [The Comic-Con] suddenly realized they had John Broome, and they featured him on top. They did offer to pay for the hotel room. But John Broome said he had a wonderful time. Especially— now, you have to remember he lived in Japan—the best thing to happen to him while in San Diego was that he was able to go out to a shoe store and buy a comfortable pair of shoes. [laughter] John

“The Big Three”

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Did you hear from friends of yours what was going on? It was so severe at the time. Like, you said you didn’t even want to talk about what career you were in at that time. Was it really that serious of a— INFANTINO: I was nervous. Actually, I don’t think we felt we were doing anything wrong. I know I didn’t and Joe didn’t. We were enjoying what we were doing. Suddenly this guy comes out of the woodwork and he’s calling us all kinds of names. Blaming us for all kinds of things we never saw in the drawings at all. So it was a little disturbing. And then, of course, sales died like mad. We had to take page cuts. We didn’t know if the business was going to continue much longer. It was a rough time. A very rough time.

Three Atomic Knights John Broome at the San Diego Comic-Con, 1998 (standing between Schwartz and artist Murphy Anderson). From Julie’s 2000 autobiography Man of Two Worlds.

Broome was 6’3”, and in Japan they didn’t have shoes to fit him. That’s his best trip to San Diego. He got a pair of shoes. AUDIENCE MEMBER: A question for all three gentlemen. Given the apparent impact the book Seduction of the Innocent had in the ’50s, I’m curious—at that time, did each of you seek out that book to see “what the heck is this all about” and how did it affect you individually? If it did at all. INFANTINO: I didn’t sign my name on the stuff. I did the artwork and signed it “Rouge Enfant,” “Cinfa”... Anything but my own name. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Did you read the book at the time? INFANTINO: No. But the impact on television with Kefauver and that whole thing with Bill Gaines... It was pretty messy. We used to walk around—I did anyway, I can’t speak for anybody else—I’d almost be ashamed to tell anyone what I did for a living, because they hammered away, hammered away. The very thing they do on TV now, that’s what they blamed us for then. SCHWARTZ: I have no comment. THOMAS: Joe, anything? KUBERT: Well, it was really a rough time, as Carmine has intimated. Those hearings were politically generated. There were companies that went under completely. People had to cut back. EC was practically out of business. INFANTINO: [off-mic] At DC we had to take $3 page cuts. It was that, or they were going to fold up. That’s how bad it was. KUBERT: It was very, very rough, and it was the result of a political ploy on Kefauver’s part. This was a way to get on TV, a new medium, which was great. But if anybody has ever seen the books— his examples of the so-called “pornography” in those books—it’s absolutely ridiculous. He [Wertham] closed in on certain parts of the drawing. I remember one shoulder drawing that was done, where he said, “Look. There’s a woman’s crotch.” FROM AUDIENCE: But it is! [laughter] THOMAS: I’m pretty sure a lot of that was coincidence. KUBERT: Yeah. Look into the clouds you’ll see – If you have that kind of mind... [laughter] THOMAS: Well, Wertham obviously did.

CATRON: [from audience] Julie, at that time was there any direction given from [Irwin] Donenfeld or [Jack] Liebowitz about what was going to be or not be in the DC books? SCHWARTZ: Well, Carmine had it right. Because of the... furor, if I can use the word like that… they decided to have a Comics Code, and it had certain rules and regulations. If you were afraid about something, a certain incident or panel, whatever it was, we’d put in, deliberately, another panel that was far worse. So, the way it went, the Comics Code Authority said, “No, no, no. You can’t have that,” and we’d argue about it and say, “Okay, we’ll take out that one and keep this one,” and they agreed. So we won the victory. [laughter] KUBERT: A specific example. Especially in the war books, because you could not—according to the rules and regulations that were set down—you could not show a person being shot. That is... SCHWARTZ: No blood, ever. KUBERT: No blood. And if a person was shooting a gun, you cannot show a gun and the person being hit in the same panel. Some of these were really ludicrous. no blood could be shown... and these were the war books that we had to do this. So we had to play all these kinds of games. Now, the reason this whole thing was set up was, again, just so we could exist. Just so the business could exist. When the movie business was hit with the Hayes Office, they themselves had set up their own paid Hayes person, Hayes himself, to... SCHWARTZ: It’s still going on today. Movies are still being rated. KUBERT: ...to check their stuff over. And the reason we did it in the comic book business was, this was the only way we could alleviate and eliminate the kind of pressure that every publisher was under. To say, “Look! We’re monitoring this. We’re policing ourselves, and the suff that was objectionable is no longer in the comic books.” As Carmine said, look at TV. Take a look at movies coming out today. SCHWARTZ: Take a look at cable. INFANTINO: [off-mic] Take a look at some of the comic books! [laughter from those closer to the panelists] AUDIENCE MEMBER: I wondered if any of you would like to

Dr. Fredric Wertham We saw Senator Kefauver back on p. 19… so here’s the other bugaboo of the 1950s comics scene—the author of the 1954 book Seduction of the Innocent and other attacks on comics. From the Internet.

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 3

comment on the state of comics today.

[Comics writer Mark Waid rolls in a cart with a 75th-birthday cake that features a reproduction of the cover of Showcase #4.]

SCHWARTZ: I can put it simple...

THOMAS: This is for Carmine Infantino, for his 30th birthday. [laughter] A little late, but it’s here. It’s a beautiful cake.

INFANTINO: I don’t read ‘em! SCHWARTZ: ...I think it’s [unintelligible, due to Infantino’s interjection] business. I’ll look at them, but I will not read them. I read comics for 40 years. I’ll glance at what’s going on, I nod my head and go, “No, no.” I just don’t get involved.

INFANTINO: Wow!

[At this point, con host Joe Petrilak enters to present…]

SCHWARTZ: The beginning of the Silver Age.

JOE PETRILAK: ...The Outcault Awards.

THOMAS: For Carmine’s… Is it 75th, Carmine? [applause]

THOMAS: That’s right. I should know that. Outcault, who was the creator of Buster Brown and the Yellow Kid.

[The audience sings “Happy Birthday” to Infantino.]

SCHWARTZ: [reading the inscription on his award] “...Honored to present to Julius Schwartz...”

THOMAS: It’s got a drawing of Carmine’s Flash cover for Showcase #4, as inked by Joe Kubert. And edited by Julie Schwartz…

INFANTINO: Thank you. SCHWARTZ: And my birthday is a week from Monday.

INFANTINO: And he has a book out, too!

[Audience sings a quick chorus of “Happy Birthday” to Schwartz.]

SCHWARTZ: ...Man of Two Worlds… “for his many innovations in the comic book world throughout his career, and for his many historical contributions as one of the key figures of the Silver Age of Comics, 1956-1969, and beyond.” Thank you very much. [applause]

THOMAS: So who cuts the cake?

THOMAS: Now, Julie’s a pretty modest guy, but these other two guys on either side are even more modest. So I’m going to read the thing because Joe doesn’t want to. [after off-mic comment by Petrilak] Oh! It’s the same text. This one says “Carmine Infantino… For his many innovations...” All right, but equally true. “For the many innovations he brought to the comics world throughout his career...” I’m sorry, I’ve got my fingerprints on here now, Carmine. You can wash it off later. “…and for his many historical contributions as one of the key figures of the Silver Age of Comics, 1956-1969,” I was wondering when that ended, “and beyond.” This is for Carmine and equally well deserved. [applause] And this is the R.F. Outcault Award for “Joe Kubert… for his many innovations he has brought to the comics world throughout his career and for his many historical contributions the the Silver Age of comics,” beyond and before and everything else. Here you are, Joe. [applause]

[The panel takes a short break as Infantino cuts the cake and it is served to all in the room before the panel resumes. There’s some talk of where comics were headed, etc., with all three of the guests presenting somewhat gloomy analyses of the future of comic books. From this point on, in the interests of space, we are limiting our inclusion of questions and answers to those relating to the Golden and/or Silver Ages.] AUDIENCE MEMBER: I’m struck by the fact that the comics industry in the Silver Age reminds me a lot of Hollywood during its Golden Age, as it was a fairly closed system, a factory system, that created wonderful stuff. And now it’s like Hollywood in the ’50s and ’60s where the factory system broke down. The same thing’s happened in comics now. It’s exploding with different publishers and whatnot, and it seems to have lost its core sense of vision a little bit. But it may come out of it. I don’t know. Any thoughts on working in a factory system like that? Did it help sort of control creativity and make them work better? INFANTINO: I don’t think it was a factory system. We were all individuals even as we were working before the Silver Age. Joe had his department, I didn’t bother him. Julie had his. They all worked their own direction.

[Off-mic, Petrilak asks Roy if he would give some background on Outcault.] THOMAS: R.F. Outcault was the creator of the Yellow Kid, who, if he wasn’t exactly the first comic strip character, was the first to really make an impact in the newspapers and, in an indirect way, may have led to all of us being here today. So they thought [Outcault] was a good person to name the awards after. This is the first year the awards are being presented, and I think we can agree that you’d have to search the whole world over to find any more deserving. I’d like to ask if we could have a round of applause for these three gentlemen… [applause]

Let Them Eat Cake – Round 2 The “Big Three” panel was interrupted first by Joe Petrilak to announce the R.F. Outcault Awards—then by writer Mark Waid bringing in a cake to celebrate Carmine Infantino’s 75th birthday. (Left to right:) Infantino, Kubert, Schwartz, Kubert. Above, the cake is ready for its own closeup, Mr. DeMille. Both pics courtesy of Craig Shutt.

“The Big Three”

seeing history repeat itself? THOMAS: Remember, history never repeats itself exactly. World War II wasn’t World War I. It always repeats itself with a lot of changes. Julie’s characters were based on the old ones, but they had a new twist to them. Some of the other things that came out—Stan Lee brought back a few old characters with Kirby and so forth. But he also made up a lot of new ones. That was another step in another direction. People are still doing that; there are new versions of Green Lantern and so forth. Green Lantern seems to be pretty successful with the third version. Somebody must be reading it. I’m not, but somebody is. So therefore, every few years, things are going to be rejuvenated in some way or other. Carmine was talking about rejuvenating the whole industry. INFANTINO: It’s also the year 2000. It’s a whole different world than 1956. There’s many forms of entertainment now. Kids have these video games as the big thing around them. Other things are coming. An electronic revolution is coming. I don’t think we are even aware of what’s coming for people. I suspect that the magazine business will go lower and lower and maybe be just a token sideline. The real living will be in other forms. That’s my feeling, if nothing else…. [a few minutes later:] CATRON: [in audience] Julie, you’ve been in the industry for such a long time and you’ve seen so much happen. Have you ever thought about, maybe, writing a book? [laughter] SCHWARTZ: All right, here’s a dollar. [laughter] [At this point, Joe Kubert answers a question about how and why he started a school for comics artists. Then there’s a bit more talk about the state of comics “today,” i.e., in 2000....]

Parallel Whirls As editor, Schwartz not only brought back “updated versions” of several of DC’s greatest 1940s heroes; in the early ’60s, he rung in the originals as well, starting with “Flash of Two Worlds” in The Flash #123 (Sept. 1961). This page replicates and expands upon the oft-reprinted cover scene. Pencils by Infantino, inks by Giella, script by Gardner Fox. Thanks to Bob Bailey. [TM & © DC Comics.]

AUDIENCE MEMBER: One thing I’d like to say. Julie, it’s easy to look back on history, but listening to you guys saying [that] during the commission hearings “it was a terrible time to work” and “we were scared to say what we did for a living”.... And here you came in 1956—I mean, it sounds like the industry was basically... You were taking page-rate cuts... The industry was almost at its end then. But you, and you specifically, brought it back by bringing the super-hero back, and in a way... SCHWARTZ: Now wait a second. I brought super-heroes back, but not the super-heroes of a previous era. We brought back superheroes in an updated version, not relying on the past. What’s that saying? “Those that repeat the past…”? THOMAS: Those that do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. That’s a paraphrase. AUDIENCE MEMBER: That’s where your genius lies, in my opinion. Here was an industry that you guys have said you were afraid of even saying what you did for a living. Yet, you came in and rejuvenated— or redid or redesigned, however you want to describe it—brought the industry back. I mean, back to where sales were up… [brief interruption to adjust camera, cutting off a portion of the question] It all goes back to 1956 and when you came in. I think, and I just want to ask, do you feel the same way? Do you see it that way, or am I just a younger guy that’s

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Getting back to the actual Silver Age, if you guys are willing... THOMAS: Oh, please. [laughter] AUDIENCE MEMBER: I’m a big fan of the war books. A lot of those have what they call those gray-tone covers. I remember one article where they said those came about in the manufacturing process. The guy who was in charge of production developed something... and I think I read a subsequent interview with Russ Heath, [who] said it was a bunch of baloney and said it was actually the artist who created that cover. So... INFANTINO: It was a guy by the name of Jack Adler. SCHWARTZ: Jack. Oh yes. KUBERT: There’s a guy—he’s still alive—by the name of Jack Adler, who was in charge of production [at DC] for years and years. Back in the ’50s and ’60s. SCHWARTZ: He’s the uncle of someone named Howard Stern. [laughter] KUBERT: The comic book business started out really as a junk publishing production-type thing. A kids giveaway, throwaway stuff. The cheapest printing. The cheapest kind of paper that it was printed on. In order to keep the prices down to ten cents a shot, you couldn’t—I mean, there was National Geographic out at that time as well. But the comic book business couldn’t produce magazines like that, simply because the prices would have been outrageous and they never would have sold. One of the problems doing the covers was that we had to do it in line. It had to be a line-cut drawing, which at that time was the cheapest kind of reproduction, and then the lightest of colors. Because, the moment you started using

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 3

Hangin’ Out The Wash As DC production man and “coloring guru” Jack Adler explained in A/E #56, he achieved the “wash cover” of Green Lantern #8 (Sept.-Oct.1961) by working over Gil Kane’s pencils, adding color and even handling the color separations. For a fuller account of the process, dig out your old copy of that A/E issue—or order a new one! Thanks to the GCD for the cover scan. [TM & © DC Comics.]

area—helped in coming up with the idea of taking wash drawings. We call them wash. It can be done with pencil. It could be done with ink watered down. So you’re getting your blacks and grays, and then putting muted colors on top of it. So it resembled a painted cover, and you got those additional tones that you couldn’t get or [that] it was very difficult to get with fewer lines. That’s how I remember it, and I was involved because I did some of those wash covers, too. That’s how they came about. They came about only because it was feasible, at that time cost-wise, to reproduce that kind of cover. That’s why they were done that way.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: But all of them weren’t that way. KUBERT: No. But you had to have a competent guy who could do that kind of work. Most of us were doing line work, and also the characters themselves— It worked well with the war books because the art was gritty and dirty, so that the more grays, the more stuff, the more crap you put on the cover, the better it worked. AUDIENCE MEMBER: So they were cheaper then? Or was this something to make it look better than...

Jack Adler airbrush and different tones in color, it became more and more expensive. The more expensive an item, the more dough it costs, the less profit will be coming in. Jack Adler, who was in charge of production at DC—an amazing guy with photography and a tremendous background in that

SCHWARTZ: “Different” is a better word. Anything you can put on... One of the things we tried—and this was when Carmine was there— The death of a comic book or the death of the sale of a comic book was dependent on the fact that it looked like the book before, or the covers looked the same as the one you got before. So what we tried to do, always, was vary those covers as much as possible. And anything that we could do—tear the cover, divide it in two or in thirds—make it black-&-white—make it all full color.

Tarzan & The Torah (Left:) By Ye Editor’s lights—and with all due respect for Russ Manning, John Buscema, and maybe a couple of other guys—Joe Kubert did the best comicbook-original interpretation ever of Edgar Rice Burroughs’ Tarzan. He wrote, drew, and edited: so much for those (like soon-to-be DC publisher Jenette Kahn) who felt a writer or artist shouldn’t be editor of his own work! DC’s #207 (April 1972) picked up the numbering from the previous Dell & Gold Key series. Maybe DC’s Tarzan didn’t sell all that well, and we were told (in A/E #129) that myopic Europeans preferred Manning’s work—well, there’s no accounting for taste. End of mini-editorial. By the way, this is just half of a double-page spread. [TM & © Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc.] (Above:) Sadly, only one tabloid-size, 68-page tabloid-size edition of the projected Bible adaptation written and laid out (in thumbnail form) by cartoonist and one-time DC editor Sheldon Mayer ever saw print: Limited Collectors’ Edition #C36 (June-July 1974). Kubert drew its wraparound cover and is listed by the GCD as “graphic designer” of the interior contents—which may mean that he did the actual layouts/storytelling for finishing artist Nestor Redondo, as he did for other artists in later issue of Tarzan. Joe’s not the only one who regrets that the Bible project was never completed! [TM & © DC Comics.]

“The Big Three”

Anything we could do to make it look different than any of the 200 or 300 other books on the stands or different from the issue that came out before.... That’s what you were trying to do. So it was merely a new kind of innovation, that’s all. THOMAS: I have a question now for everybody on the panel. Starting with Joe over there on the other end, I just want to ask the question I asked at another panel with the Marvel people. What are one or two things you did in comics that you most look back on with fondness, whether it was last week or a half century ago—and what was the one thing you looked on with the least favor that you ever did? KUBERT: I couldn’t tell you. I don’t know about Carmine and the other guys who do the work in this business, but a lot of people have been kind enough to bring up books for me to sign—I can’t remember. Three quarters of the books, I can’t remember them because... The way I work is, I’m concentrating so completely on the work that’s on the table—and I’m still drawing... THOMAS: I don’t mean necessarily one story. A character or a concept. KUBERT: Well, Tarzan was one. The Bible I would have loved to have done. That was the one with Shelly Mayer. He had written the original and I was working with him. THOMAS: Julie?

Everything Old Is New Again! (Left:) Julie Schwartz was proud of changing “everything” but the name in 1940s heroes he re-created for the Silver Age—and, in the case of the “Justice League of America” that debuted in The Brave and the Bold #28 (Feb.-March 1960), he even changed that, since the original group had been called the “Justice Society of America.” There’s no doubt that Julie made that modernizing decision; but, was the JLA’s name really derived merely from his personal memories of baseball’s National and American Leagues—or was there more to it? Wait till you read the surprising article about comics fan and artist Larry Ivie that’s coming up next April in Alter Ego #152! Oh, and the B&B #28 cover was penciled by Mike Sekowsky and inked by Murphy Anderson.

SCHWARTZ: [holds up book jacket of his autobiography] Boom. THOMAS: It’s in the book? [laughter] SCHWARTZ: No, the thing that I liked best was taking something that was published in the 1940s and doing it again in the late ’50s, just using the name of the character. Everything else was changed. The uniform. The background. The type of story. And all I was taking advantage of was the title. Flash. Green Lantern.

(Right:) Actually, as A/E’s editor said at that very 2000 con (see p. 45), Julie and his writers and artists kept rather more than just the names of the 1940s Flash and Green Lantern—and even more of Hawkman in 1961. But The Atom, who made his diminutive debut in Showcase #34 (Sept.-Oct. 1961) behind this Gil Kane/Murphy Anderson cover, was indeed a new character in everything but name— at least so far as DC was concerned! The Silver Age Tiny Titan was, in essence, a revamped version of the Quality comics group’s Golden Age “Doll Man”—but Julie, artist Gil Kane, and the 1961 fancollaborators Jerry Bails and Roy Thomas each had wildly different ideas on precisely how and why the new Atom exploded onto the scene, as detailed back in A/E, Vol. 3, #2! Still, any way you slice it, Julie Schwartz was the talented guy who brought it all together, to become the first of the two essential editors of the Silver Age of Comics! (You figure out the other one!) [TM & © DC Comics.]

The only thing I changed—I hated the word, the title “Justice Society of America.” “Society” suggests some sort of social organization. I preferred the word “League,” because everyone knew what a league was. Their baseball league, people working together in some fashion. So I came up with “Justice League of America.” So what I simply did was take something from a previous decade and use it again in an entirely different way. I hate to say this, but I was known as “B.O. Schwartz.” [laughter] Which meant “Be Original” Schwartz. I always insisted when we did something, BE ORIGINAL. THOMAS: That’s what you think they meant! [laughter] SCHWARTZ: The complete details, as I said, are in the book. How I happened to come up with the expression “B.O.,” just to give you a hint. It was based on my lifelong friend, a fellow named Mort Weisinger. I’m not going to tell you any more. You’re going to have to read it. THOMAS: Carmine, how about you? What kind of... INFANTINO: I enjoyed the plotting more than anything else. When I was dealing with it as an editor. The drawing was

over with. I didn’t care about it anymore, but the plotting I enjoyed. Because I was doing the Bat Lash, some Wonder Woman, “Deadman”... THOMAS: You didn’t take a credit. Bat Lash had a credit, but... INFANTINO: No, no. Because I felt it was better that the writer— what’s his name? Denny [O’Neil]—better he get the credit. He did all the copy, and he’s brilliant at that. And it was my job to do it. I shouldn’t get credit for it. KUBERT: I’d like to mention one other thing. Carmine liked the plotting, but I’ve got to say—I’ve gotten a tremendous amount of compliments on some of the covers that I’ve done. A lot of those covers, the greatest preponderance of the covers I did, were pre-sketched by Carmine. The ideas came down from him first. THOMAS: Well, from 1967 to the mid-’70s, there was a very definite change in the DC look. It’s not like we don’t like those other covers that other people did, but there was a very definite change there when Carmine came in as editorial director. A sort of singlemindedness and power and a good, simple idea… and that stayed there for several years and it made those books stand out. If you look at them now as you go through, you’ll see those several years are different from what came before and after. No matter who did it.

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 3

If it was Joe, or whoever. And a lot of that, whether he designed or somebody designed it with his input, obviously had to do with the gentleman whose cake we’ve been eating. SCHWARTZ: One story about Carmine I must tell. When Carmine was designing all the covers, what I simply would do was bring in the artwork and Carmine would look at it and start doing a sketch. Then he would call in, in this case, Nick Cardy to do the pencils. INFANTINO: One of my favorites. SCHWARTZ: And on one occasion, Nick Cardy brought back the pencils and Carmine said, [imitating Infantino] “You didn’t follow what I laid out. You’re fired!” So Nick Cardy walked out, and I said to Carmine, “Well, who’s going to do the cover now?” He says, “Oh, get Nick Cardy back in here.” [laughter] AUDIENCE MEMBER: Carmine, when you came on as editor-in-chief, you brought in a lot of editors who were artists. Was this intentional? INFANTINO: It was on purpose. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Was this so you could communicate with them on your basis? INFANTINO: No. What happened was, most of the people who were editors at DC prior to that were editorial people who came from stories, from fiction books, and there was no one there who did drawing or the basis from drawing. And most of the scripts were script-oriented, not art-oriented. So for that reason I brought Joey in, I brought Joe Orlando in, I brought people like that in. And they gave a different slant. All of a sudden everything got perked up and looked different. It’s a visual medium and we had gotten away from that. THOMAS: You had another few. I know there was Dick Giordano, who is primarily an artist. There was Mike Sekowsky, and several other people like that. Joe Orlando did mystery books and so forth, which we never really got the hang of over at Marvel, because ,you know, Joe really had that down. Julie, how did you—I don’t know if this is in the book or

not—how did you fit into that world when you’re almost suddenly the odd man out? You’re the last guy there who can read, you know? [laughter] Just kidding, just kidding. You were the last printoriented guy. [NOTE: Naturally, a far more accurate term would’ve been “word-oriented.”] SCHWARTZ: All I really remember, and it’s not in the book, is that when Carmine introduced me to Joe Orlando, Joe shook like a leaf. I hardly knew who Joe Orlando was. I said, “Joe, what’s the matter?” Joe says, “I’ve heard about your reputation as an editor. I’m really scared to be working with you.” [laughter] INFANTINO: We had different feelings. Julie had his own way of editing, which is important. I didn’t want that changed. But we needed some people. We had Julie, we had Murray [Boltinoff]— a marvelous editor. But I think the balance we wanted to strike, we did. We brought Joey in, Orlando in, and we had a balance of people all of a sudden. And that brought in artists who were very unusual. The Bernie Wrightsons came in. Mike Kaluta came in. All kinds of young people coming up. And the place was humming. Do you remember, Joe? We were bristling in those days. It was great. We had a good time. MORRISSEY: [from audience] I’d like to ask just about all of you, because I think you all handled these, about letter pages. Because Julie had some really excellent letter pages and so did Joe when he was an editor. And so did Roy, for that matter, when he was... THOMAS: Oh, stop! MORRISSEY: I look at the letter pages today and—how did you choose the letters for them and... SCHWARTZ: How did I choose the letters? Very simple. I read the mail as it came in, and as I read them, I’d grade them. A,B,C,D. And I had 50, maybe 75 letters, and when it came time to do the letter department, I wasn’t going to reread all those letters. So I picked out all of the A+’s. I’d put a couple of A+’s, an A-, then I’d go to the B’s and... The important thing I did, which I learned because it enabled me to get ahead, was to put the complete address. I don’t want to go into the whole history of fandom, but the fact that I used the complete address... If you were a comic book reader and you lived in Albany, NY, and you saw a letter from somebody else from Albany, NY, you might want to talk with them about comics. So you got in touch with them and eventually you form clubs, and that led to the birth of Jerry Bails and this guy Roy Thomas putting out a magazine like I did years earlier with Mort Weisinger. THOMAS: We didn’t even get in touch through your books [directly], because that was before you gave full addresses. You actually sent me to Gardner Fox. Gave me Gardner Fox’s home address. Can you imagine someone today: “Can you give me the home address of this writer or artist?” [laughter]

It’s All In The Cardys! (Above:) Buddies Nick Cardy and Carmine Infantino at the Heroes Con in Charlotte, North Carolina, in 2000. Photo by Bob Bailey. (Right:) Probably one of the many fruits of their joint labors: Cardy’s cover for The Flash #218 (Oct.-Nov. 1972). Julie, who on the panel tells a story about Carmine firing Nick, was the editor of that issue, of course. From the GCD. [TM & © DC Comics.]

SCHWARTZ: Well, I used to do that. When I read science-fiction, I loved the writing of David S. Keller, and I wanted to correspond with him. So I managed to get David S Keller’s address... THOMAS: And I told Gardner Fox that I wanted to buy some of his All-Star Comics, not that I had any money. And he said, “I just sold my bound copies a couple of years ago to another guy who liked All-Star Comics. You two ought to get together and correspond.” And that’s how [Jerry Bails and I got together].

“The Big Three”

But Julie was THOMAS: Yeah, always fighting but for comics it to put the full was pretty original. addresses and, They didn’t do of course, [DC] it for EC years didn’t want to earlier. That was do it because of a Julie Schwartz two things. One innovation. One was, they said of two or three. if you started [looks at watch] It’s trading magazines 4:30 and I need to through the mail, charge out. I have you might spread another panel—on disease. And of Green Lantern. course the other SCHWARTZ: You thing was, there’s need a drink? always the chance of some dirtyGoing “Green”! THOMAS: No, I minded person Since Roy T. was scheduled to moderate a “Green Lantern: 60th Anniversary” panel just a few minutes don’t need a drink. getting in touch with after the “Big Three” one—and since he couldn’t talk Julie Schwartz into attending—it seems fitting to end You know me. But somebody. So there this transcription with a DC house ad for Showcase #22, the comic that introduced the Silver Age “Green you guys have a were a lot of reasons Lantern.” (If Roy himself ever saw this ad, it was after he had purchased the unanticipated comic at a drink, Julie, you’re drugstore in summer of 1959.) Collector/benefactor Jim Kealy, who sent this ad from Batman #127 (Oct. people put up as a on that panel. Go ’59), says he’s also run across house ads for Showcase #1-3… but never one for #4, easily the most imporsmokescreen, but ahead and bring tant Showcase issue ever, since it heralded the revamp of “The Flash”! Hey, we’ll take what we can get, Julie persevered in that picture of your Jim—and thanks! [TM & © DC Comics.] that… and I think book. [responding we’re all the better to an off-mic comment by Schwartz] You’re not on that panel? Okay. off his for having done that. That was a Julie Schwartz innovation. Go sell your book, then! [laughter] I’d like to have one Being original! last round of applause for three of the greats of the comics world: Joe Kubert, Julie Schwartz, and Carmine SCHWARTZ: Well, I copied it from the science-fiction [pulps]... Infantino! [applause]

ALL TIME CLASSIC NEW YORK COMIC BOOK CONVENTION PART

60th Anniversary Panel

MART NODELL, IRWIN HASEN, & ROY THOMAS Talk About The Emerald Crusader Videotaped by Marc Svensson

A/E

EDITOR’S INTRODUCTION: This celebratory panel was timed to take place immediately after the “Big Three” panel whose transcription precedes it. Originally, it had been slated to include Nodell, Hasen, and Sheldon “Shelly” Moldoff, who had drawn the first-ever “Green Lantern” cover, on 1940’s All-American Comics #16. But Moldoff had to cancel his appearance at the con, and I had meanwhile been trying to recruit Julius Schwartz, who had been story editor and then editor of the Golden Age “Green Lantern” appearances from early 1944 through All-Star Comics #57 at the turn of 1951—and, perhaps even more importantly, the editor of Showcase #22 in 1959 and the next decade-plus of the Green Lantern comics title. However, Schwartz had issues with Nodell, having on occasion gone on record disparaging his artwork, and he declined to join the panel. Still, even with Gil Kane having passed away a few months earlier, we had on hand two of the most important Two For The Show… 1940s illustrators of the Green (Above right:) Irwin Hasen (seatGladiator, including his major ed) and Mart Nodell displaying the creator—so away we went! ROY THOMAS: This is the panel in honor of the 60th anniversary of the Green Lantern. From 1940, when it began in All-American [Comics] #16… through last week… there have been sixty years of Green Lantern. Except for a period of about a decade when he wasn’t on the newsstands, the Green Lantern has always been around. Several generations of Americans have grown up with this character, and we have here the two [artists] most associated with that character in its earliest days. To my right, we have Mart Nodell… who conceived the idea

“Green Lantern 60th Anniversary Cake” at the All Time Classic Con— flanked by “GL” art by the pair.

(Above:) Splash page from Hasen’s first-ever artwork for the series: the cover of All-American Comics #24 (March 1941). Nodell drew the “GL” story inside, though. Thanks to the Grand Comics Database. (Right:) Nodell’s splash from AllAmerican #20 (Nov. 1940), which recapped the origin tale from #16. Note credit for Mart “Dellon,” which is “Nodell” spelled sideways. You fooled us good, Marty! Script by Bill Finger. Repro’d from the DC hardcover The Golden Age Green Lantern Archives, Vol. 1. [Pages TM & © DC Comics; videotape of panel © 2017 Marc Svensson.]

Transcribed by Sean Dulaney

Green Lantern: 60th Anniversary Panel

E.E. Hibbard (left) became the second person ever to draw a “Green Lantern” solo story—but it was the only one he ever illustrated. He had previously drawn GL in the “Justice Society of America” intros and finales in AllStar Comics. Detail of photo provided by David Siegel for AE #142.

Bill Finger (Right:) The original scripter and secondary co-creator of “Green Lantern.” Detail from an early1940s photo provided by Marc Tyler Nobleman.

and [was] ably carried on by Irwin Hasen. So would you please welcome these two gentlemen…. [applause] Why don’t you give us the short form of what happened? How did you create the idea of the Green Lantern?

A Second-Hand “Lantern” Splash panel from All-American Comics #23 (Feb. 1941). Script by Bill Finger, art by E.E. Hibbard. Note that the official art credit is still for “Mart Dellon,” however. From The Golden Age Green Lantern Archives, Vol. 1. [TM & © DC Comics.]

of the Green Lantern, designed the costume, made up the first story, and so forth—although I thought it was this guy “Mart Dellon”…. MART NODELL: That was somebody else. It was still me. THOMAS: Right. And then, next to him, we have the second person to become a regular “Green Lantern” artist, and who did a couple other things in his life, too: Irwin Hasen, who began already by, if not late ’40, then early ’41, drawing “Green Lantern” partly so that they [All-American Comics group] could put out a Green Lantern quarterly book and get somebody else to do the All-American book. And Irwin Hasen had done a beautiful cover for one issue of All-American, a South American type of scene… and on the basis of seeing that drawing, they said, “This is the guy that ought to do it, to pick up the slack,” and suddenly you had “Green Lantern” being handled by these two people. This is the way it went for the next several years. Eventually other people came. There was this one story by E.E. Hibbard in the middle, and then eventually Paul Reinman and Carmine, near the end. Alex Toth, a guy with some talent, drew a few stories. But these are the two guys that carried the load for all those early, wonderful years of the “Green Lantern,” and whatever Julie said at the last panel about—I love Julie, but what he said at the last panel about only keeping the name of the Green Lantern or The Flash: not true. Even if it’s in his book. Julie and his people added a lot to the new Green Lantern and Flash, but what they kept, from both characters, was more than just the name, and, in the case of Green Lantern, more than just the color. What they kept was a concept… the concept of the man who finds a ring, however he finds it—it can be science-fiction or it can be fantasy, whatever—but who finds a ring that enables his will power and his mind to do almost anything he can think about. He has a weakness, but basically it makes him the next best thing to omnipotent, and yet still very human, because he’s not invulnerable like, say, Superman…. I wouldn’t want to take anything in the world away from Julie Schwartz, or John Broome, or my good friend, the late Gil Kane, but the fact remains, it all started back in 1940, ’41, with Mart Nodell,

NODELL: Well, in seeing the Green Lantern as another character, the first thing that I thought of was to have the idea of what I felt would be most important to me. If I could think of a number of ideas and put them together, it’d be best to do it with what I knew about. So first I thought of Greek mythology, Chinese folklore, Wagnerian opera, and— THOMAS: That’s the Ring Cycle of Wagner, right?... NODELL: Well, sure, you know it. Anyway, all that meant to me, first of all, was a meteor coming down in a small town in China, where there would be an explosion and there would be some metal. Secondly, the costume that I eventually worked out would be Greek-mythology-type… except that I thought of the motion picture characters who were great on swordsmanship, and I thought it’d be great to have part of the sleeve billow around. [to Irwin] You didn’t do that! IRWIN HASEN: [mock startled] First of all, I didn’t know about that. Greek mythology and Chinese—to me it was making a living. I just did what he did, and I took— In those days you got an assignment from an editor, Sheldon Mayer; you’d come down to the office, and Bill Finger would be sitting there, and they would talk among themselves, and then he’d say to me, “Irwin, go home and do whatever you do.” NODELL: Well, that’s what they did, but I didn’t work from that point of view at all. The only things that I did then was try to do something that— Superman had Krypton. Batman had a lot of mechanical things. So I thought the next thing would be a little bit different, so I thought “will power.” So, with will power, he could go through walls, he could fly, he could do various things. But that to me meant using the character in various ways, but I needed something additional, so I worked out the lantern… but the lantern was a green lantern. I went down to the subway on the way home after I talked to Sheldon Mayer, and I thought of something that had to do with the fellow who was working on the tracks. And here he was waving a red lantern for the train not to come in, with a green lantern if it was okay to come in, all that kind of thing. So I decided that sounds like a workable title. So I just used the Green Lantern, and that, to me, was the character. But I didn’t want Super-MAN, Bat-MAN, so I thought maybe something else. I also thought the lantern could be worked with the opera that you were referring to, the Ring Cycle operas—well, that was a character, a prince with unusual [abilities], where there were under-

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 4

The Green, Green Lanterns Of Home A trio of post-Nodell “Green Lantern” artists (clockwise from above left): Paul Reinman drew GL reciting his classic oath in Comic Cavalcade #19 (Feb.March 1947). Doiby Dickles is there, too. Scripter unknown… although Alfred Bester and Henry Kuttner, both future major science-fiction writers who scripted the “GL” feature around this time, are possibilities as the composer of this oath, which was retained for the Silver Age revival. Carmine Infantino illustrated several Golden Age “GL” yarns—but none were published before a late Silver Age fill-in issue was needed for the revived Green Lantern #88 (Feb.-March 1972). Part of Infantino’s “GL” splash was repro’d on that issue’s cover; the rest of the cover is by Neal Adams. Alex Toth did some fabulous work on “Green Lantern” in the likes of Comic Cavalcade #28 (Aug.-Sept. 1948). Script attributed to John Broome. Thanks to Eric Gimlin. [TM & © DC Comics.]

Alex Toth

Paul Reinman Thanks to Frank Motler.

in the 1950s. This pic appeared in The Comics Journal.

Green Lantern: 60th Anniversary Panel

your name in those days. And it was like the 1922 ballplayers who, if the owners had their way, wouldn’t have their names on the back of their uniforms. That’s the corporate— THOMAS: Yeah. A couple of decades earlier, the movie studios didn’t really want to know who these people were [in their movies]. They would have someone called “The Biograph Girl” or something. It was against the will of the studios that movie stars’ names got out there. HASEN: My pleasure, in the “Green Lantern,” I think, I’m not sure now, was creating Doiby Dickles. THOMAS: You, and I guess Finger was the writer, but you two guys made up Doiby Dickles. HASEN: Finger. And I got it from the actor, Edward Brophy, who was an Irish detective before the World War in the 1930s Warner Bros. movies. He was an overweight little taxicab driver with a little derby and a cigar, and what an unlikely assistant for a guy like the Green Lantern! It was ridiculous.

“What Makes A Wildcat Wild?” Panels from the fnal page of the “Wildcat” story with the above title from Sensation Comics #11 (Nov. 1942), with art by Hasen, script byline for Finger. Thanks to Bob Rozakis. The white circles on the left side are the result of the page apparently being in a binder at some point. [TM & © DC Comics.]

ground types… and he would have the ring… the ring would be his. So we used the ring as the actual way for him to fly off or to do anything else. As far as he was concerned, that was it.

THOMAS: Do you remember how that came about? Because Doiby Dickles was a great character. Once he showed up, of course, you [to Nodell] drew him, too, then, and he was in the majority of stories for years. HASEN: In those days, there was a humanness to our business. There wasn’t any zing-zang-bing-boom-bang. They were human beings. The Green Lantern, he didn’t fly, he didn’t leap. NODELL: Well, he did fly. He flew and he leaped and all that. [Next few lines overlap] HASEN: I was afraid of heights, so I didn’t make him fly.

THOMAS: Well, the thing is that, in 1940, by this time, you’d had a year or two of what would later be called super-heroes… Superman, and then Batman…. But there were already several new characters like that starting to come in, so I guess you had to have a gimmick. Over at Timely, Bill Everett came up with an underwater hero, the Sub-Mariner. Carl Burgos came up with a guy who caught on fire. Over at Fawcett, they just copied Superman, and they had a very successful character in Captain Marvel, with all the originality that Captain Marvel also had, of course. But, unfortunately, by staying as close as they did, they got sued. Luckily, you were at the same company, so nobody was going to sue you. They wanted you to do a character. But they had to have a gimmick… and that’s why, I think, The Flash and Green Lantern, and then Wonder Woman as the female version of Superman, that’s why these characters lasted so long.

NODELL: We wanted Green Lantern not to do any kind of shooting—

Now, both of you gentlemen worked with another man who was brought in on strips—“Green Lantern,” but also with Irwin on a whole different strip, and that was Bill Finger. He was brought in at first on “Green Lantern,” and Irwin, of course, created another whole character with him, “Wildcat.”

THOMAS: That’s kind of important.

HASEN: “Wildcat.” Bill Finger was the unheralded genius of all this we’re talking about. He was the one who wrote the stories…. I originated the original story, the original concept, and I didn’t know Bill. I didn’t know who he was. I didn’t know that he worked with Bob Kane at all…. In those days, the writer was in the background, just writing, and the editor was the captain, and we were called in to do the drawings. And I don’t think I ever— [to Nodell] You signed your name, right? NODELL: Yeah. HASEN: I didn’t. I used to sneak it in. They didn’t like you to sign

HASEN: Yeah! Right. NODELL: —or any kind of blood and thunder sort of stuff. HASEN: I think that introducing Doiby Dickles made for a charming, kind of funny, down-to-Earth— THOMAS: Do you know how the idea evolved? I mean, this is relatively minor compared to the creation of the Green Lantern, but Doiby Dickles was a great supporting character. Was this something that Bill Finger— HASEN: Bill Finger made it, yeah. I’m not taking all that credit. All I’m taking credit for is the image of the guy.

HASEN: Yeah. And, also, with Wildcat, there was a 6’4” guy named Stretch Skinner; so we did the same thing with Wildcat. In other words, for some reason or other, in those days, we made everything down-to-Earth and human. Kind of a Frank Capra kind of gentle hero. The hero, of course, did what he did. But, for some reason or other, in those two instances—I don’t know how it came about—Bill Finger, Sheldon Mayer—the only credit I’m taking is that I sat down with them and they said, “Irwin, go home and make a picture of Doiby Dickles.” NODELL: I really didn’t know Bill Finger at all until after I had done about four or five pages for a story, and they brought Bill Finger in to finish it out, excepting for one thing. I had developed an incantation, but they wanted more of something else. That’s what Mayer wanted. So he helped develop an oath as opposed to

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 4

A Doiby Winner! (Above:) The panels in All-American Comics #27 (June 1941) in which Doiby Dickles was introduced—if you don’t count Howard Purcell’s cover. Apparently Sheldon Moldoff did layouts for this story, and Hasen—doing his first interior assignment on the hero—finished the artwork, which included deciding the final look of the cab-driver. Script by Bill Finger. Thanks to Doug Martin. The splash page of this story was reprinted in A/E #140’s extensive coverage of Hasen’s life and career, utilizing a film documentary by his friend Dan Makara. [TM & © DC Comics.] (Right:) A sketch of GL and Doiby by Hasen. Is that a “1978” date on there? [Green Lantern & Doiby Dickles TM & © DC Comics.]

the incantation. [Next several lines overlap] THOMAS: “In brightest day, in blackest night…” It wasn’t that. [You’re talking about] the early one. NODELL: That’s right. Who created that one? Do you recall the writer who wrote [the later one]? HASEN: Al Bester? NODELL: Al Bester. THOMAS: Well, supposedly. There’s some doubt about who actually did that, but he very well may have been the one. NODELL: The first one was partially mine and partially Finger’s. But I never had gotten to know who Finger was until about the second or third story. Then I talked to him on the phone. He would bring the scripts in, and that was it.

And, In This Corner… This splash panel drawing (or re-creation of same) was posted on the Comic Vine website. We’re not sure which story it’s from—but it’s definitely the work of Irwin Hasen. Seen with him is Stretch Skinner, the lanky, countrified manager of Wildcat’s alter ego, Ted Grant, mild-mannered heavyweight champion of the world. [Wildcat & Stretch Skinner TM & © DC Comics.]

Green Lantern: 60th Anniversary Panel

The Secret Origins Of A Secret Origin (Left:) Mart Nodell both wrote and drew the first few pages of a “Green Lantern” origin as samples for All-American editor Sheldon Mayer, this one of which has come to light in recent years. Thanks to Michael Feldman. (Right:) After Mayer called in writer Bill Finger to script a full version of the story for Nodell to draw, the story was printed in All-American Comics #16 (July 1940). Repro’d from the first volume of the hardcover Golden Age Green Lantern Archives. [TM & © DC Comics.]

HASEN: Always late. NODELL: Never to me. Never was late once. HASEN: Really? NODELL: Never at all late, and never thinking and talking about the girlies or anything else like that. It was all very much on time, very well done. And if I wanted any changes, I would call him and I’d say, “Well, let’s make these changes.” And that was all there was. THOMAS: Well, he was the guy who co-developed— You can argue about the exact phrase—“co-created,” whatever—but whatever the term is, Bill Finger was instrumental in the creation of three major characters, two of whom have had a tremendous longevity, Green Lantern and Batman. And Wildcat has also been around, off and on, and mostly on, for the last almost sixty years. Not many people create three characters that last that long. HASEN: Well, creating a character, I keep saying—I don’t want to put my work with comic books down, but most of it was done by committee. In other words, it was a joint effort. THOMAS: Yeah, but when you’re drawing, you’re there in that room by yourself HASEN: I did. Drawing is what you did. And I was a drawer. I wasn’t a creator, I wasn’t a writer, I was a drawer. So you had these

great writers, Al Bester, Bill Finger. So I was just a kid at that time, drawing. I wanted to draw pictures. I never could compete with any of these guys in the business, so in the back of my head I always wanted to have my own comic strip. THOMAS: You ended up realizing that dream. HASEN: Well, it happened. I got very lucky. But I think, deep down, while I was doing the comic books, I would have two or three strips shot out from under me while I was doing comics. And I really worked on that. For some reason or other, in the back of my head, I wanted to be in the newspapers. THOMAS: What I don’t understand is, I came in at the tail end of the panel you were on a couple hours ago, the Golden Age panel, and I heard you say something that really kind of floored me. You said, “I never did much on the inside of the magazines. I was the cover man.” HASEN: That’s right. THOMAS: Do you know how many interiors you did over those years? HASEN: You know everything. I don’t know. How was I? THOMAS: You started in 1941 or ’42. You went into the service, but after you came out in ’45 or ’46, there, you drew “Green Lantern”

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 4

A Hasen Fairytale Irwin liked to believe he mostly drew covers except perhaps on “Green Lantern” and “Wildcat.” In actuality, however, he did a lot of interior penciling in the latter 1940s—including the entirety of the 38-page “Justice Society of America” story (as well as the cover) for All-Star Comics #39 (Feb.-March 1948), seen at right. Script by John Broome. Repro’d from Roy Thomas’ bound volumes. [TM & © DC Comics.]

THOMAS: It’s not even accurate. [audience laughter] But, anyway, we’ve sort of agreed here that both of these gentlemen created and worked on strips with Finger. HASEN: We’re still here. THOMAS: Yeah. I wish Bill was. I had the pleasure of meeting Bill Finger about twice in my life, back in the ’60s, and wish I had gotten to know him better. HASEN: A very sad, sad man. THOMAS: Yeah, he was one of those guys who, after a while, couldn’t seem to get it together to do the work. Unfortunately, in a business with deadlines, you can have little periods here and there where you’re not dependable or when you had something go wrong, but if you do it for years on end, it becomes a problem.

right up to the end, in ’49.

HASEN: In our business, deadlines are the bottom line. [to the audience] Remember that line. The deadline is the bottom line…. I teach at Joe Kubert’s school, and I teach the young kids coming up now… and no matter how good they are, whoever they are, I said, “The bottom line for you guys, just remember one thing.” Because they never give me assignments on time, and they say, “Next week I’ll bring it in. Give me another.“ I said, “I want to tell you, the bottom line is, in our business, as in any business, professionally, advertising, they want it yesterday. They have printers to deal with, they have editors to deal with, and the deadline—that’s the bottom line to being a professional. Not talking about talent.

HASEN: Did I?

THOMAS: Irwin, maybe you remember this, because I published

THOMAS: Yes. You did several hundred pages of “Green Lantern,” plus All-Star [Comics], you did the “JSA”…. HASEN: That I did, but mostly I did covers. THOMAS: No, you did whole issues. And you did every single Harlequin story that was ever penciled. [NOTE: Actually, all but one.] HASEN: Why didn’t you tell me this forty years ago? THOMAS: Plus every single “Wildcat” story in the beginning. That alone was eight or ten different stories. You did a lot of work inside the books. I think you just liked the covers better. HASEN: I liked the covers better. I was lazy. I couldn’t deal with those 12 pages, 14 pages. I couldn’t compete with Kubert, Infantino. I just couldn’t compete with Mort Meskin. You know who I’m talking about. All these guys were great names, good artists. I never had that sense of being in their company. I really meant it. And this isn’t false modesty.

They Had Him Covered! Even on covers, Hasen was often inked by others. His cover for All-Star Comics #47 (June-July 1948, on left) was inked by Bob Oksner, that of All-Star #48 by Bernard Sachs. Thanks to the GCD. [TM & © DC Comics.]

Green Lantern: 60th Anniversary Panel

I didn’t know exactly when they were bringing this in…. I know it’s not your birthday, Irwin, and it’s not Marty’s birthday, either…. This is a birthday cake for a gentleman who isn’t here: the Green Lantern…. But, unfortunately, they put on there a picture of the Green Lantern drawn by Gil Kane. But it’s okay, because it’s the same concept that Irwin worked on years ago, and that Marty worked on years ago. It says “1940-2000.”

Let Them Eat Cake – Round 3! A closeup of Green Lantern’s “60th birthday” cake—and of the Gil Kane/Joe Giella cover for the Silver Age Green Lantern #1 (July-Aug. 1960), on which its image was based. The latter was actually the fourth appearance of the revived GL, who had previously appeared in 1959-60’s Showcase #22-24. Photo courtesy of Joe Petrilak. [Cover TM & © DC Comics.]

HASEN: Marty, let’s check the spelling. [audience laughter] THOMAS: [reading] “60 years and counting”…. [applause] So what do the rest of you guys want to eat? We’re still getting down Carmine Infantino’s 75th-birthday cake.

a picture when I did the interview with you in Alter Ego last year. There was one page, and I think you both had your names on it. Supposedly you and Marty Nodell both worked on it. Do you— HASEN: He penciled and I inked, or I penciled and he inked? I don’t remember. NODELL: There was nothing like that at all. I did all of my inking and penciling. HASEN: He did the whole thing. THOMAS: And so did you, in the early days. When did you start being inked by other people? Later, didn’t Oksner and some other people ink you in the late ’40s? HASEN: I don’t think anybody inked me. THOMAS: I know your early work was pretty much—you could tell it was all you. HASEN: And the funny part of it is that Alex Toth, when he was 16 years old, adored my work. We became very good friends. I was older. And I couldn’t figure out—it seemed to me he was the best cartoonist ever. Nobody can touch Alex.

NODELL: Well, this is very nice. HASEN: It’s lovely. THOMAS: Let’s take some questions from the audience, for either or both of these gentlemen. Who’s got a question? Yes? MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: The first thing I’d like to say, I think that the concept of Green Lantern, a hero with a ring, has held steady in that sixty years…. [unintelligible sentence] I was wondering what these gentlemen thought of the later versions, the Hal Jordan version. THOMAS: [clarifying for Nodell and Hasen, who might not have heard the question clearly] Nobody else has really made the ring bit work. That’s been so unique that I think others are probably scared away from it, because any character using a ring would seem like an imitation of Green Lantern. You made that your trademark. MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: The only one was, Marvel had a villain called The Mandarin.

THOMAS: He doesn’t even want you to.

NODELL: I heard. I didn’t see it.

HASEN: A strange man. [laughter] He was, like, 16 years old, not a man, a kid, and he used to come to my studio, my apartment, and he’d say, “Your stuff is [unintelligible but complimentary].” I’d say, “What’s the matter with you?” And, again, maybe I’m sounding like false modesty, but I knew what he was doing, and apparently, I think he liked me as a friend more. But, as he grew into it, he became apart from everybody. [to the audience] Are you familiar with Alex Toth? To me, he is the closest thing to— I have three heroes in our business: Roy Crane, Milt Caniff, and Alex Toth. To me, honest to God, they’re the top.

THOMAS: The first time I saw it as a fan, I thought, “Oh, it’s like ten Green Lanterns!”

THOMAS: I’ve never talked to Alex Toth about this, but I know one thing that he found in your work that he liked at the time… [I think]… was this kind of squared-off, blocky, but not in a bad sense, very clear, diagram-like drawing…. [At this point, someone enters with the Green Lantern 60th-birthday cake, interrupting the panel.]

MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: That’s what I thought, too. ANOTHER: No doubt you’ve seen the Silver Age Green Lantern, Hal Jordan, who I think carried on the tradition honorably. What do you think of later versions of the character? NODELL: Well, let’s look at it this way. The way I see it, there’s no one particular way. Regardless of how things worked in those days, an automobile was worth $40,000 bucks even if it was a Cadillac. Stores were different, telephones were different. There were no computers, calculators, things like that that are now in vogue… fax, and so on. Things are a lot different. So, therefore, why shouldn’t things progress? And that’s the way I’ve felt. The progression of how things may have been at that time. Different people think different ways. And different artists will think of things in a different way.

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 4

Green Lantern Wasn’t Yellow! The first two appearances of Green Lantern in costume in a splash panel occurred in the second and third stories in Showcase #22 (Sept.Oct. 1959). Scripts by John Broome, pencils by Gil Kane, inks by Joe Giella. The cover (at left) was solo Kane work. Thanks to Art Lortie and Doug Martin for these scans. [TM & © DC Comics.]

[At this point, Marty’s wife Carrie approaches the dais.] THOMAS: Here’s Mrs. Nodell. Carrie. [applause] Have some cake. CARRIE NODELL: I knew the right time to come. [brief interruption; then Thomas calls upon another audience member for a question] AUDIENCE MEMBER: I was interested in the evolution of the costume—who designed the first Green Lantern costume, and how did it wind up being what it is today? The Green Lantern’s costume is so different from what it was originally. NODELL: Entirely so. But I liked the original costume, with more color. It seemed to be a lot more fun, a lot more the different kind of character that would do different things. And there’s one thing I didn’t do. Now, even in making the character, drawing it, sketches

of the character, for anyone who would look at the character, I didn’t have him take the cape and wind it around his face. I thought that would be fun, but they want to see his [facial] features, so I never did that. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Well, The Spectre took care of that.

Gil Kane From the Internet.

[Thomas comments about the combination of mask and cowl; then:]

THOMAS: Marty, when they [the publishers and editor] decided, after only a handful of issues of “Green Lantern” [in All-American Comics], that you should start on Green Lantern #1, how did you feel? Did you think at first that maybe you could handle it all? Because you’d done most of the stories up to that point. NODELL: It’d just be more work. So the next thing that we did was change my name from Mart Dellon to Mart Nodell—change it to my own name. THOMAS: Why hadn’t you used your real name before? NODELL: The reason was, I was hoping to go into advertising, which I did in 1947. So I decided that, well, if that’s the way they want it, we’ll do it. And then Mayer thought it would be a good idea to have my own name on the story because there would be more stories to tell, eventually, so I started using my own name. THOMAS: But, Irwin, I don’t think you ever signed any “Green

Green Lantern: 60th Anniversary Panel

Lantern” stories, though you did sign some of the covers.

have any muscles on her legs or arms, and yet make them look feminine. That’s all. And you had to do that, and it’s very tough. The best comic book artist for women was Bob Oksner. He’s the greatest “woman” artist. Drawing ladies and drawing women was always very tough.

HASEN: Yeah. That’s because they didn’t want you to [sign stories]. THOMAS: But why? They let a lot of people sign their work. Joe Kubert signed a lot of work.

NODELL: That was a woman artist?

HASEN: Joe Kubert insisted. I don’t know if it’s my ego, an ego thing.

HASEN: No, he was a man. But he drew women beautifully.

THOMAS: Why shouldn’t you?

THOMAS: When [AA] suddenly decided to do a whole book of his adventures, you obviously didn’t have the time to do all of them. How did you feel about that?

HASEN: I don’t know why I wanted my signature on it. I did the work, and when I got through, I automatically signed it. They didn’t really complain. THOMAS: Because, after all, they had hired Simon and Kirby away from Timely, and they were signing everything, including stuff they didn’t even do. HASEN: I don’t think anybody would have really made a stink.

And GL Makes Three… Marty and Carrie Nodell at home circa 2000, surrounded by some of Marty’s recent Green Lantern commissions.

THOMAS: Nah, they wouldn’t. But it was almost never on the interior. Whether it was All-Star or “Green Lantern,” almost every signature of yours that exists from those days is on the cover. And not always there, even. HASEN: Well, I was always kind of proud of the covers.

NODELL: I didn’t mind. I was just doing more work…. Until 1947, and I’d had enough by about that time. By ’48, I found I wasn’t getting any advertising work that I wanted, so I went to look for something a little different. Went on staff at Timely. That was one— THOMAS: That must’ve been different!

NODELL: Yeah, quite different. First of all, Syd Shores was the head man…and I’ve learned that he’s been dead for about 27 years. A long, long time ago. THOMAS: A number of years. He died in the 1970s, I think. Syd Shores. You said John Buscema was there?

THOMAS: This is a Green Lantern panel, but I’ve noticed that you seemed to have a special pride in the “Wonder Woman” covers that you did. Did you really enjoy doing those? HASEN: Oh, boy, and how! [laughter] THOMAS: Well, she wasn’t exactly a sexpot, back then. HASEN: Actually, drawing women was a very special thing. It’s very tough to draw ladies, and especially technically to draw—to not have muscles. That’s the first thing when you draw a woman hero, a lady like Wonder Woman, you’ve got to know not to

Wotta Woman! (Left:) When Irwin Hasen first began penciling covers that featured Wonder Woman, he closely imitated the style of originating artist Harry G. Peter, as per that of Wonder Woman #33 (Jan.-Feb. 1949). Reseacher/historian Craig Delich has ID’d this cover and the next as having been penciled by Hasen and inked by Bernard Sachs. (Right:) The Hasen/Sachs cover of WW #45 (Jan.-Feb. 1951). Thanks to the GCD. [TM & © DC Comics.]

NODELL: John Buscema was on staff. Gene Colan. Dan DeCarlo. He did the girlies…. We had about eight pencilers, and about four inkers. Now, a job might come in for us. Uncle Martin Goodman said he wants this rushed, so we’d go to Stan, Stan Lee was the editor, and Stan would say, “Let’s hurry this up.” We’d get the script in the morning, and I’d get two pages, somebody else would get two pages, two pages, two pages. Say it was an eight-page thing, so four guys

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 4

What’s In A Namor? (Top left:) The Sub-Mariner cover logo has been cropped from this drawing that Nodell was penciling when publisher Martin Goodman called a halt to it. See the panel transcription for the reason why… insofar as anyone can totally figure it out! (Below:) One of the few Nodell signatures you’ll find in a Timely/Marvel comic accompanied this spot drawing done for a “Charm Corner” page in Miss America, Vol. 7, #43 (April 1950). Thanks to Darci Sharver. ([TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

THOMAS: Well, the reproduction system wasn’t good enough back then to pick it up [from pencils alone]…. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Because Bill Finger was involved, wasn’t Alan Scott in Gotham City? Is that the same Gotham as Batman was in? HASEN: Well, it’s like Brooklyn was to Manhattan. THOMAS: It was probably because Bill Finger was the writer. If he was writing Gotham City in one [series], why make up another town?

would get the material, and we’d finish up the penciling, but by the next day, four different inkers would be doing the work. You could never define who was doing which work, or whose work it was. THOMAS: That’s really been a problem for everybody who’s trying to figure out the credits, especially in the late ’40s, those later things. It’s hard to tell, because one guy would do this, and one guy would do that. By the time you get several inkers and several pencilers on the same job, you can’t really tell quite who did what, so you can’t even really tell your own work.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: And they were both millionaires with secret identities? THOMAS: Alan Scott wasn’t a millionaire. He was a radio announcer. NODELL: He was a working man. THOMAS: He was making a good salary, probably, but I don’t think he was supposed to be rich in the way— own Gotham [Broadcasting]?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Didn’t he didn’t

NODELL: No. THOMAS: That was later, in the ’70s, when they made him the owner.

Now, Marty and Carrie sent me something about a month ago… a Sub-Mariner cover Marty did. He hadn’t finished the face, but the eyebrow were there, the shape of the head…. You did more of the dragon than you did of Sub-Mariner, but the eyebrows were good.

NODELL: In the current Justice Society book, Alan Scott has been returned full-fledged as Green Lantern. He got young; he turned into a character called Sentinel. Now he’s back with the Justice Society. This month has Green Lantern. So he still lives.

NODELL: Yeah, I was working from the top down, and that was as far as I got. Oh! We have to define why we were doing this in the first place. We were now going to go on a completely new concept. Martin Goodman said, “Let’s work on pencils only. We’ll finish the pencils tightly.” Not those like Mike Sekowsky, who worked very loosely…. He would [get] a job early in the morning, and by late in the day, he’d bring back five, six, or eight penciled pages. They’d be all finished, all ready to go. But what we would have to do is complete the work in pencil so it’s tight, everything is tight…. But that would be the way we’d finalize it and try to print it that way. But apparently, after a little while, Goodman decided we’d had enough of that business, so we went back to the original. Inking, finalizing the work that way.

THOMAS: I have a question. Marty mentioned how he left comics, he went into advertising. He eventually, of course, was a designer, led the design of the Pillsbury Dough Boy, his other famous character. Didn’t get to sign that one, though. NODELL: Well, I think it worked differently. Our salaries were a heck of a lot better. We weren’t getting ten bucks a page, or whatever a page, or, finally, when I got $50 dollars a page. That was pretty good, too. So in advertising the ownership of the material was all the ad agency’s company and the client. But we were well-paid, really well-paid for whatever we did. THOMAS: [to Hasen] You’ve told how you were [basically fired by DC] and advised to take a cruise, not realizing that the guy was

Green Lantern: 60th Anniversary Panel

We Wanna See Him Go Ten Rounds With The Stay Puft Marshmallow Man! Although Nodell worked with a team to develop the famed Pillsbury Doughboy, he often said that it was basically his design… as per this commission sketch by him found on the Internet. The character was parodied, of course, in the 1984 film Ghostbusters. [Pillsbury Doughboy TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]

saying, “Don’t come back”… and it turned out well for you. What I’m very curious about is, this is 1949 or thereabouts. Comics were still selling. Maybe “Green Lantern” was on its last legs, and you did the very last, and there were a few stories left over. Marty and many other people changed companies. Timely was going pretty good then. Why didn’t you go to another company, after you came back from that cruise? HASEN: I don’t think they know about that cruise business. [DC managing editor] Whitney Ellsworth asked me to come into his office. He said, “Well, you know, Irwin, you’re a bachelor, a single guy. Why don’t you take a cruise, get out and see the world?” And I said, “Gee, that’s not a bad idea.” [I didn’t realize] that I was being fired. CARRIE: You thought they were going to pay for the cruise? [laughs] HASEN: No, I just didn’t understand what he was saying. THOMAS: At what point did you finally figure it out? On the cruise, or when you got back?

to tell people that John Buscema can draw anything you can get him to think of or to want to draw…. He did hate a few things at Marvel. He hated Spider-Man. He hated The Fantastic Four. He hated drawing group super-heroes like The Avengers. Until he got Conan, I don’t think he ever liked drawing anything. But, anyway, getting back to Green Lantern, to the two gentlemen here. [to Hasen] You were no longer doing “Green Lantern,” but you kept on doing humor things for DC for another couple years, didn’t you? HASEN: Fillers. And when I came back from Europe, I don’t know what the hell I did. I went on USO trips for the National Cartoonists Society. We used to send cartoonists who were “at liberty,” and being at liberty was the best thing that ever happened to me, because I went to Japan, I went to Korea, I went to Germany, with a group of [cartoonists], entertaining the troops. This was 1952. THOMAS: That’s in the middle of the Korean War. HASEN: I met Gus Edson in Germany. We visited Dachau. THOMAS: Anybody know who Gus Edson is? Did you ever hear of a comic strip called The Gumps? Which was running for many years, and was kind of winding down, and he had a new idea for a strip. HASEN: Timing is everything. You meet somebody whose strip is going down, and you’re broke, you were fired. THOMAS: But, you didn’t tell him that, right? HASEN: Oh, no. He said to me, “I have an idea. Are you busy?” I said, “Yes, I’m very busy. [laughter] I’m doing advertising.” He said, “Because, if we get together on this idea, I want to tell the syndicate that I’m working with a guy who’s busy.” I said, “Tell them I’m busy.” Meanwhile, I was dead broke. And we met in Germany. He liked me. He didn’t see any of my work. And we came back, he sent me a letter in the mail one day. I opened it up, and I was sitting in my car in the city, and I looked at the little drawing he did. I don’t mean to digress from comic books, but— THOMAS: It’s all related.

HASEN: I went to a travel agent and I booked passage on a luxury liner to Italy, London, and Paris with 1200 bucks in my pocket. And I got on the ship, a luxury ship, and when I passed the Statue of Liberty, I realized I was fired. It occurred to me, why the hell am I doing this? And he said, “You’re a single guy, what the hell.” And I realized that’s the way he fired me, telling me that “We like you, you’re a nice guy” and everything… Now, I was doing all that work, I was doing the “Green Lantern.” THOMAS: Right up until the end HASEN: But apparently I wasn’t cutting the mustard. I couldn’t compete at that time. This is 1952. [to Nodell] You were in advertising. NODELL: [gesturing toward someone who has just entered the room] And then there was a fella named John Buscema who was on the staff at Timely— THOMAS: Ladies and gentleman, this is a new young artist who’s looking to break in, named John Buscema. [applause] You never drew “Green Lantern,“ so you can’t come in here. NODELL: He is one of the best artists in the entire business. THOMAS: I worked with him more than almost anybody, zillions of pages of “Conan,” but also a lot of other stuff. I always used

John & Dolores Buscema with Roy Thomas (at left), in a photo taken at the 2000 con by Dann Thomas. It was the last time Big John and Rascally Roy ran into each other, before his untimely death in January 2002. Earlier, he’d dropped by the Green Lantern panel to listen to his old Timely bullpen associate, Mart Nodell—and when Marty saw him enter the room, he called attention to him.

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 4

I’m A Yankee Doodle Dondi This ad in Sunday comic strip form, intended to promote U.S. Savings Bonds, appeared in newspapers on July 23, 1961, and reflects the popularity of the Dondi strip created by writer Gus Edson and artist Irwin Hasen. Thanks to Ger Apeldoorn. [TM & © Tribune Media Services, Inc.]

HASEN: I looked at that drawing that he did, and what he said to me. He called me “Kleine.” In Germany, it means “little one.” “Dear Kleine. The kids should be this, with a big hat,” and this and that. And I looked at it. I’m sitting in my car, and this is almost like when you look at a girl at a party, and you see a lot of beautiful women in there, and you say, “That woman over there? I’m going to marry her one day. She’s going to be my wife.” And you don’t know why. I looked at that thing and I said, I called him up and said, “Gus, we’re gonna have the best strip in America.” And here is a guy who’d just been fired from DC, who had no credentials anymore. But it was like a God thing. When two people meet, timing. By the way, that’s the whole thing, timing.

a long story short, it worked out. But no money. In book publishing today, you get an advance, $100,000, $200,000.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Gus had to have been pretty old?

THOMAS: I didn’t even care.

HASEN: He was 55, and his strip, The Gumps, was on the way out.

HASEN: You’re a hard man. [laughter]

THOMAS: After several decades, though.

THOMAS: No, I don’t mean that. What I mean is, this is true of anybody… when you see something start, you can’t ask, “Has this guy been sitting in a garret working for two years?” You just see the work, and that’s all there is.

NODELL: He [Andy Gump] never had a chin. HASEN: Never had a chin. Sydney Smith, who created The Gumps in 1917, finally, after becoming world famous, got the first milliondollar contract from the Chicago Tribune [Syndicate]… and they gave him a Rolls Royce that day. He was at a party, and he was drunk, and he drove the Rolls Royce, and he got [mimics slashing of throat], like Jayne Mansfield. THOMAS: The same day? NODELL: That’s exactly right. HASEN: And that’s when Gus inherited it. But when Gus and I met, we worked for a year-and-a-half [on our comic strip Dondi] without pay. In those days it wasn’t like a publishing company that gives you an advance. Gus said, “Can I lend you money?” I had nothing. I had war bonds, and I didn’t want to bother him. I said, “Gus, I’m all right.” When you believe in something, there’s almost a spiritual kind of thing. So that’s what happened. Anyway, to make

THOMAS: Why did they wait for so long? Was it that not many papers had it? HASEN: Nobody had it. THOMAS: Because it eventually became big. I saw it from the very beginning. I remember seeing the earliest strips— HASEN: Yeah, but you didn’t see the two years that I was sitting in my apartment working on it without any money. And erasing.

HASEN: It’s amazing. And Gus was afraid to go up to the editor. He’d been working for the News for 25 years, and he hated their guts. He hated them. And he had reason. That’s another story. But he said, “Take it to King Features.” I took it to King Features, and I’m not a salesman. No cartoonist is a salesman. What you do when you sell a strip, you put it on the table and you go like this. [covers face with hands] [laughter] And the editor is cutting your guts out. I gave it to Sylvan Byck, the head of King Features. He looked at it and he said, “Irwin, it’s okay, but the kid’s in Europe, and he comes across on a ship when he comes to America. It’s a two-week strip.” I said, “What do you mean?” He said, “What are you going to do with him once he gets in America?” See that? And this was the top editor in the world. I used to see him on the street 28 years later, and I’d say, “Hi, Sylvan.” But we were fortunate, again: timing. Moe Reilly was the editor at the News, and I took it to the News. Moe Reilly looked at it and he saw the whole vista, the making of an

Green Lantern: 60th Anniversary Panel

American. And if it wasn’t for Moe Reilly, the strip wouldn’t have gone ahead…. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Did Gus Edson write Dondi? HASEN: Yes. He died ten years later, so he didn’t have the opportunity to savor the success. But it was successful immediately, the minute it was published. THOMAS: And then there was that movie. HASEN: Don’t mention the movie! [laughter] THOMAS: Irwin’s a movie star, you know. Irwin was in the movie Dondi. HASEN: It was awarded the Golden Turkey for possibly the worst movie ever made. THOMAS: Oh, I doubt that, but it wasn’t that great. HASEN: The best part of it was that I met—“Tennessee Waltz,” the singer…. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Patti Page. HASEN: She’s beautiful. And whoever wrote the title song, I guess, was a genius. I have the tape. It’s so beautiful. What a beautiful song, and she sang it, and David Janssen was in it. And I was in it for a minute. I was a police reporter, and they didn’t want to pay me to say anything because it cost $70 scale, so I couldn’t say anything. So I went and I did this while I’m sitting drawing. [puffs mouth] The ham in me.

NODELL: Right, and that’s what I liked to do and work on it. THOMAS: So we restored that in the ’80s. NODELL: That’s what I did, for the most part. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Where did the cowl come from? NODELL: The cowl? I wish somebody would tell me! THOMAS: You were a stage actor for a while when you were trying to get on the stage. NODELL: That is true, but the stage had nothing to do with that. I think that it was more of something that probably Mayer did. Mayer probably thought of something like that: “A cowl would be good.” HASEN: That’s how those things were done. It was always a committee. THOMAS: Someone would ask me even about characters in the ‘70s, y’know: “Well, who made up Power Man?,” let’s say. Well, Stan Lee wanted to do a character, and then I [contributed some things], and then Archie Goodwin wrote it, and then John Romita sat with us and designed the costume, and then George Tuska drew it. By the time you got done, you’ve got either zero people, or maybe five or six people, all of whom created it before our first story came out. Sometimes there is, and sometimes there isn’t, one person who’s the most important. If there had to be one person, I suppose it would be Mart Nodell. If you look at two, then it’s Mart Nodell and Bill Finger.

THOMAS: And this is great, because, of course, in the movie they’ve got—[to audience] You’ve seen Dondi, right? You know what he looks like. He’s got this head, he looks like Charlie Brown. And [in the movie]—it’s only been 40-something years since I saw this, so correct me if I’m wrong. What happened is, they’re giving the description to the police artist, who is played by Irwin here, and they’re saying, “Well, let’s see. He looks like this and this.” And, of course, the kid in the movie is a real kid, so he doesn’t look like [the comic strip Dondi] at all. So Irwin does this picture [of Dondi, looking just like he does in the strip]. “Yeah, that’s him!” [laughter] But I knew in that instant, as little as I knew about comics at the age of 12, 15, whatever, and all the stuff of how they were really done back in the small town in Missouri, I knew that had to be the guy who was the Dondi artist, because it looked like the comic strip and not like the kid in the show. What I didn’t know was this is also the guy who’d done “Green Lantern” and All-Star. [A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: For much, much more about Dondi, see A/E #140.] HASEN: It was an amazing switchover from the comic books into this. AUDIENCE MEMBER: [to Nodell] What was your biggest inspiration for Green Lantern? THOMAS: You mentioned Greek mythology, Chinese folk tales, and Wagner’s Ring Cycle earlier. Did you have any other inspirations? Was there any Arabian Nights in that? Aladdin? NODELL: No, nothing at all like that, no. Just a matter of being, as I said, soldiers, people who would wear heavy sleeves or robes and so on. THOMAS: I never thought of that in the old days because by the time I was reading it in ’45, he wore a tight shirt like everybody else. But, when I think back on it, I realize that that does have a look like these Greek or sort of Eastern European kind of outfits.

Bubble Trouble Actually, Irwin Hasen had been “in advertising,” at least in a sense, when he had drawn this comics-style Bazooka ad that appeared in, among other places, Comic Cavalcade #29 (Oct.-Nov. 1948). Hasen drew several such Bazooka strips/ads during that period. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention—Part 4

Green Power The 7-page “Green Lantern” chapter in AllStar Comics #3 (Winter 1940), a Nodell-drawn episode related by GL to the newly assembled Justice Society of America, shows the hero using his ring to fly, to compel crooks to speak the truth, to free himself from ropes, and to pass through walls—but he mostly slugs his way out of tight spots. And of course he’s vulnerable to wood. It’s never been 100% determined whether Gardner Fox wrote the entire issue or whether a character’s regular scripter (which in GL’s case would have been Bill Finger) may have done it. Fox seems the more likely bet, though. Repro’d from Millennium Edition: All Star Comics No. 3 (June 2000). [TM & © DC Comics.]

Green Lantern: 60th Anniversary Panel

The Ring Thing A scene from the Green Lantern panel, showing (left to right) Irwin Hasen, Mart Nodell, moderator Roy Thomas, and perhaps Marc Svensson videotaping the proceedings. Thanks to Joe Petrilak. The photo is framed by panels showing the evolution of the power of GL’s ring by two of his main artistic interpreters. (Top right:) In Green Lantern #24 (Feb.-March 1947), Green Lantern was still mostly slugging crooks with his bare-knuckles fists, but at least he was doing more intricate shapes with his Power Ring. Art by Mart Nodell; script attributed to Alfred Bester. (Below right:) All-American Comics #85 (May ’47) saw GL forming a fist (or maybe a boxing glove) with his ring to stop “Crusher” Crock, who in a future issue would recast himself as The Sportsmaster. Pencils by Irwin Hasen; inks by John Belfi; script attributed to John Broome. [TM & © DC Comics.]

You start talking about the development, then you’ve got to add Irwin Hasen…. And, on other characters, Irwin would be important in a different way. It’s fun to argue about who created this and who created that, sometimes, and sometimes it’s maybe less than fun. But the fact remains that there are a million ways to create things… and the only way you could ever know is to go through every single detail to know who created something, because there is no simple answer. Whether it was Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster on “Superman,” or Bob Kane on “Batman,” or anything else. Any last question? AUDIENCE MEMBER: I was wondering who came up with the vulnerability. I mean, first it was wood, and then— THOMAS: No, first it was non-metals, and then it became gradually wood, so it sort of evolved. And then, of course, Julie changed it to yellow in the ’60s. [to Nodell] But how did that happen? When he started off, it was just that he could control metals, and that was all he did. Wood was a non-metal, so he would get hit over the head with wood, not knowing that that was why it hurt him. And gradually, over a period of several years, while you were still drawing it, suddenly it became that his vulnerability was wood, and they forgot [the metal bit]. NODELL: Well, Mayer thought of it as being the thing to do, to use wood as something that he would be vulnerable to. I said, “Look, every eighteen inches you would have studs in the walls.” How was he going to go through the wall that way? [mimics running into a wall] [laughter] THOMAS: I was looking over that Archive edition of the Golden Age Green Lantern that has both your work in it… and by the third or fourth story, they’ve got Green Lantern walking through what is obviously a wooden wall, or it looks like a wooden wall. So I think sometimes they forgot. NODELL: It didn’t make any difference. AUDIENCE MEMBER: I was going to say, non-metal would keep him from going through windows, too, wouldn’t it?... I noticed when I read the first story, I didn’t really see a contradiction, because he was just invading

the criminal’s hideout for the first time. He didn’t even have his costume yet. And they’re shooting at him and the bullets bounce off, and suddenly somebody’s hitting him with a baseball bat, and he thinks as he’s going under, “Strange that the bullets didn’t affect me, but wood does!” But he doesn’t really know at that point…. THOMAS: The other thing that evolved is that in the early days he uses rays, he flies, and he goes through walls and this and that, but over a period of a couple of years, while you guys were drawing it, it began to evolve that the ring would form things, which it didn’t really do in the earliest stories. Eventually, of course, the signature thing for Green Lantern now is him forming a fist that hits somebody, or forming a scoop, and, of course, they played on that very big in the ’60s. Do you remember how that could have— [tape ends]

REED CRANDALL Illustrator of the Comics

From the 1940s to the ’70s, REED CRANDALL brought a unique and masterful style to American comic art. Using an illustrator’s approach on everything he touched, Crandall gained a reputation as the “artist’s artist” through his skillful interpretations of Golden Age super-heroes DOLL MAN, THE RAY, and BLACKHAWK (his signature character); horror and sci-fi for the legendary EC COMICS line; Warren Publishing’s CREEPY, EERIE, and BLAZING COMBAT; the THUNDER AGENTS and EDGAR RICE BURROUGHS characters; and even FLASH GORDON for King Features. Comic art historian ROGER HILL has compiled a complete and extensive history of Crandall’s life and career, from his early years and major successes, through his tragic decline and passing in 1982. This FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER includes NEVER-BEFORE-SEEN PHOTOS, a wealth of RARE AND UNPUBLISHED ARTWORK, and over EIGHTY THOUSAND WORDS of insight into one of the true illustrators of the comics.

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GROOVY, baby!

Follow-up to Mark Voger’s smash hit MONSTER MASH!

All characters TM & © their respective owners.

From WOODSTOCK to “THE BANANA SPLITS,” from “SGT. PEPPER” to “H.R. PUFNSTUF,” from ALTAMONT to “THE PARTRIDGE FAMILY,” GROOVY is a far-out trip to the era of lava lamps and love beads. This profusely illustrated HARDCOVER BOOK, in PSYCHEDELIC COLOR, features interviews with icons of grooviness such as PETER MAX, BRIAN WILSON, PETER FONDA, MELANIE, DAVID CASSIDY, members of the JEFFERSON AIRPLANE, CREAM, THE DOORS, THE COWSILLS and VANILLA FUDGE; and cast members of groovy TV shows like “THE MONKEES,” “LAUGH-IN” and “THE BRADY BUNCH.” GROOVY revisits the era’s ROCK FESTIVALS, MOVIES, ART—even COMICS and CARTOONS, from the 1968 ‘mod’ WONDER WOMAN to R. CRUMB. A color-saturated pop-culture history written and designed by MARK VOGER (author of the acclaimed book MONSTER MASH), GROOVY is one trip that doesn’t require dangerous chemicals!

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ALL TIME CLASSIC NEW YORK COMIC BOOK CONVENTION PART

The Making Of The 20' x 60' All Time Classic Comic Book Painting – 2000 I by Russell Rainbolt

met Joe Petrilak through eBay. I had listed a bunch of full-run sets of Valiant Comics, and Joe e-mailed me asking what I would take for all of them and inquiring if I had more.

It turned out that he lived about an hour away, so I sold him the entire set, and we agreed to meet halfway along Route 15 in Connecticut. When we met up, Joe started talking about the All Time Classic Con that he was putting together, so I jumped in and said, “Hey, I paint billboards, and the studio has these gigantic vinyl canvases that I could grab. What if I paint a couple of giant-size super-heroes for the show?” Petrilak thought that would be really wild and said he would arrange to have it displayed, if I could get it done in time. I had two months! I drove immediately to the Barrett Outdoor Studio in West Haven and asked if they had a spare billboard vinyl that I could commandeer for a comic art project. John and Bruce Barrett have always been very generous in supporting the arts and many of my own crazier projects. To my surprise, they offered me a gigantic 20’x60’ vinyl. My imagination went nuts! The usual size of a billboard vinyl is 14’x48’, but here was this monster that they were giving me! A 20’x60’ vinyl is exceptionally large, and I suspect that a client who had originally ordered it had abruptly realized the expense and had switched to a smaller size, leaving the Barretts with a huge vinyl on their hands.

Russell Rainbolt (Above:) From the con’s program book, with his pencil sketch for the mural. Also seen, in color, is a photo of Russ with part of the actual painting. Thanks to RR for the scans on this page.

“Wow!” I thought. “I could paint almost everyone on this!” And then I had a flash of Steranko’s History of Comics cover. How cool was that? What if I tried something like that? All the characters from all the companies. And why not make it a kind of History of

Comics cover? Start at the Platinum Age, then Golden Age, then Silver! And that’s as far as I could go because, believe it or not, I ran out of room! My original pencil sketch started with a cluster of Platinum stars at the bottom left, like the Yellow Kid, Little Mose, Buster Brown, Mickey Mouse; and high above it all, in the hazy glow of the moon, was Little Nemo with pages of books swirling all about.

Rainbolt & Windsor-Smith Russ at the show with artist Barry Windsor-Smith. Russ says that it was the Englishman’s 1970s work on Conan the Barbarian that made him want to be an artist.

As I moved into the Golden Age, I started using comic book covers for reference: Superman from Superman #2 (I wanted him in the art!)… Detective Comics #36 for Batman… the Golden Age Green Lantern from Green Lantern #11… The Shield from Pep Comics #1… [Continued on p. 66] [Characters in the Russ Rainbolt mural on pp. 62-65 TM & ©2017 the respective trademark and copyright holders.]

Article Title

All Time Classic New York Comic Book Convention — Part 6

Never Mind Cinerama & Cinemascope… Russ standing in front of the painting.

[Continued from p. 61] and a big swatch of Timely’s greatest: the Sub-Mariner, Torch, Toro, Bucky, and Captain America, all thanks to All Winners #8. As you can see, the list goes on and on, and before long I was dragging out every reference I could find and stuffing every open space with more and more characters. I had a blast. I literally worked 12-16 hours a day for the last several weeks and finished it 24 hours before the All Time Classic Convention opened. I had to leave some time for it to dry. It was 3 o’clock in the morning when I signed it, and the Barrett billboard crew found me sound asleep next to Mr. Natural, the last guy I painted. (Say, do you think The Yellow Kid could actually be Mr. Natural? The timeline is just about right….)

And that’s how I ended up making one of the largest pieces of fan art ever. Amazingly, this gigantic mural folded nicely and fit into the back of my Jeep Wrangler. Petrilak gave me a table and hung the art across the entire stage for all to see. It was my first invitation to exhibit at a convention, and I had the unforgettable privilege of meeting an amazing number of comics’ legendary creators—and all in one place! I also had the unique opportunity to show them just how big an influence they had on me. NOTE: Re the quality reproduction of Russell Rainbolt’s 60’ x 20’ comics mural displayed on pp. 62-65: Russ has compiled a checklist, complete with images, enumerating the names and all the cover references for every character in the huge painting. It is available on his website russrainbolt.com. How many can you name?

Previously Unpublished Brunner Artwork!

ATTENTION: FRANK BRUNNER ART FANS! Frank is now accepting art commissions for covers, splash panels, or pin-up re-creations! Also, your ideas for NEW art are welcome! Art can be pencils only, inked or full-color (painted) creation! Contact Frank directly for details and prices. (Minimum order: $500) Visit my website at: http://www.frankbrunner.net

Dr. Strange & Clea TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc..

(Inset:) Panel from Peter Cannon... Thunderbolt, Vol. 3, #51 (March 1966). [TM & © Estate of Pete Morisi]

Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt!

The PAM Papers (Part 1)

by Michael T. Gilbert

few years back, I was commissioned to do a Justice Society drawing for collector Glen D. Johnson, who had been soliciting illustrations from some of his favorite artists. As we exchanged letters, I discovered that Glen was a longtime friend (and #1 fan!) of the late cartoonist Peter Anthony Morisi. As a matter of fact, Glen and Pete had engaged in a lengthy correspondence that had begun in 1964 and continued until shortly before Pete’s death in 2003. Glen had saved PAM’s letters and offered to let me publish some in Alter Ego.

“Lou, Your Old Stuff Was Better!” Dept. PAM preferred artist Lou Fine’s earlier style, as seen in the above “Black Condor” splash from the Quality group’s Crack Comics #3 (July 1940), to his later work on the detective comic strip Peter Scratch (with scripts by Elliot Caplin). The example below is from Jan. 9, 1967. [Black Condor is a TM of DC Comics; comic strip TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]

It was a daunting offer, as there were hundreds of pages that had to be boiled down to a few pages for each installment. But as I read them, I found myself fascinated by Pete’s thoughtful, off-thecuff comments on the then-contemporary comic scene. Morisi’s letters range from the late ’60s to the early ’90s—a lifetime in the world of comics! Pete had many insights into what it was like to work for a bottom-tier publisher (Charlton), as well as his thoughts on comic art and his peers in the industry. His letters afford us a rare intimate peek behind the scenes by one of its own. These were personal comments, written almost half a century earlier. In the ensuing five decades, sadly, most of the principal players are long gone. Let’s begin with some letters from the early ’70s—ones that included comments by that irascible cartoon genius, Alex Toth. [See photo on pp. 46 & 94.] I’ve made some minor edits to the letters for clarity’s sake, taking care not to change the content. In some cases I’ve just pulled out particularly interesting excerpts. Pete began by discussing both Alex Toth and certain newspaper strips that Glen had sent him. These included Frank Robbins’ Johnny Hazard and Lou Fine’s detective strip Peter Scratch.

Dear Glen—

2/1/71

Sorry for the delay, but I wanted to finish that war story before I answered and mail. It took ages for me to sit down and

pencil it––and one long day to ink the six pages. I also enclosed another note to Sal––no more war stories. [MTG NOTE: Charlton editor Sal Gentile.] Alex Toth dropped me a note also, and talked about the old days, complimented my work and asked me to send him some stuff, and said he’ll be doing some war stuff for Joe Kubert, in addition to doing work for Mattel, Inc., in L.A. Nice, friendly, letter, gotta answer it after yours. See ya, Pete

Johnny Can Be Hazard-ous To Your Health (Below:) Frank Robbins’ Johnny Hazard daily for Nov. 27, 1944. [© King Features Syndicate, Inc.]

The PAM Papers—Part 1

Dear Glen—

2/15/71

Many thanks for the [Johnny] Hazards—they’re beautiful. Robbins doesn’t always follow the rules of realistic drawing, but his stuff always has a “feel,” a “mood” that can’t be beat. I was going to hold back with the Peter Scratches for several reasons: I don’t think your pupils would care for the stories. Although they’ve got good basic plots, they were, on the whole, badly done. Loose ends, poor direction, etc. I liked the stories and character because of what I felt could be done with them. Certain panels, certain strips, had the meat of a good thing, but the writer (Al Capp’s brother, I’m told) just didn’t capitalize on what he had going for him. (That’s why I’d love to take a crack at another private investigator thing someday—but only if I write it.) The art isn’t Fine’s best—by any means. Again, I like it but your pupils might not be impressed. However, rather than having you think I’m putting you off, I’ve decided to let you decide. The Tarzan pages I have (and there really aren’t that many) are pretty “dry” and “brittle”—and I don’t think they’ll take kindly to a binding job. Toth asked me to send some books of my recent stuff (which I did) when I answered his letter. Yesterday I got another letter from him, in which he blew his cork at my change of style. Here are some excerpts: (just between us)––

“Pete, Your Old Stuff Was Better!” Dept. Alex Toth complained to Morisi that the latter’s 1970s style was too dependent on photo-tracing, such as the page above from Charlton’s The Many Ghosts of Dr. Graves #28 (Oct. 1971). Toth preferred Pete’s earlier style, as seen at left in Comic Media’s Danger Comics #3 (May 1953). [© the respective copyright holders.]

“I see you falling into the trap too many other artists have fallen into via their use of photographs. And that is…you wind up with the bloody photographs using you. I think you are being used. “I am bored to death by the best guys in the business who use and abuse photos in producing their strips, and specifically, I mean Stan Drake, John Cullen Murphy, John Prentice, Al Williamson, and their ilk. I cannot take their work seriously, nor can I even be sure about their native abilities, as artists, because whatever abilities they may possess are hiding behind their mounds of photos and their slavish copies of them. “Now you had, and still have, an eye for the simple, strong storytelling graphics and design, when you were less dependent upon photographic aids. What I see in the two books you sent me now is your abdication of your own eyeball judgments, trading it for that of the too-rich detail of whatever photographs you have been using, and their sterile images. Then you wind up with is a very slick, near perfect rendition of these photographs.” I still don’t know how I’m going to answer Toth, but I’ve got to admit, he made some mighty strong arguments––what do you think?

Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt!

In later letters, Morisi again voiced concerns about whether he has become too dependent on photo-reference. While PAM’s art is handsome, I also prefer PAM’s more spontaneous earlier work. PAM himself discussed those concerns with Glen: Now, on to your comments about my art: I can understand the bit about the cross-eyed broads (this comes from working too closely with photos—one of the things Alex spoke of). Photos, as a rule, have a lot of cross-eyed people—that look right in photos—but come out all wrong when reduced to line drawings. A guy like Prentice has mastered the art of making things “look right,” while Williamson (and myself) still fall into the trap of telling ourselves “It must be right—it’s in the photo.” Only time, awareness, and knowledge will clear that up. As for “thick lips” on girls, I plead guilty—that’s just something I’ll have to work on—But “thick lips” on men, and “thick fingers” are something new to me—tell me more. As for being “heavy on the inks”—I know I’ve been guilty of that in the past—but thought I was coming back in the right direction since I started the photo stuff—again, tell me more. If any of the above sounds like a cry-baby attitude, overlook it. Honest criticism is hard to take, but when it comes from a friend, it’s appreciated. Keep it coming. In a previous letter, Glen had asked PAM what he’d been working on lately and the artist provided Gary with a list of his recent Charlton stories. His response:

No, Not THAT Superman! One of PAM’s letters mentioned having recently completed this story from Charlton’s Fightin’ Army #100 (Nov. 1971). [© the respective copyright holders.]

Pow! A/E’s editor might cry if we didn’t have some super-hero content, such as this lovely PAM cover from Peter Cannon… Thunderbolt V3 #53 (actually issue #3) (Aug. 1966). It may have been inspired by the Jack Kirby/Chic Stone panel at right, from Tales of Suspense #61 (Jan. 1965). [TM & © Estate of Pete Morisi & Marvel Characters, Inc., respectively.]

Let’s see, after “Return to Die” I did Dr. Graves’ “The Only Way Out”/“The Liberated Woman” (Time for Love)/ “Paradise Revisited” (Love Diary)/ “Who Will I Love Tomorrow? ” (Sweet Hearts)/ “Don’t Tread on Me” (Ghost Manor)/ “Don’t Let Me Go” (romance filler)/ “No Ghosts Here” (1 pg. filler)/ “The Medal I Didn’t Deserve” (war)/ “Another Kind of Love” (I Love You)/ “The Superman’s Last Battle” (war)/and just starting “Good-Bye Paradise” (Time for Love)/ The scripts (war, etc.) I’ve been getting are all unsigned—but I’m pretty sure that Joe Gill does the massproduction writing. He must turn out 15-20 pgs. a day— and the sad quality of it proves it (he can write good stuff when he wants to). Nope, I haven’t seen “Heartbreak Revisited,” “Arrival of the Innocent,” or “I

The PAM Papers—Part 1

How Sharper Than A Serpent’s Tooth… (Left:) PAM does his tribute to Bill Everett’s Amazing-Man snake-biting sequence, in Peter Cannon ...Thunderbolt #56 (Feb. 1967). [© Estate of Pete Morisi.] (Below:) The original—as written and drawn by Everett for Amazing-Man #5 (Sept. 1939—actually the first issue). Artist Gil Kane was another fan of Everett’s Centaur comic, which is apparent in his and Roy Thomas’ origin of “Iron Fist” in Marvel Premiere #15 (May 1974). We don’t think they showed this scene in the recent Marvel/Netflix series, though. [© the respective copyright holders.]

Can’t Tell Him” yet. Who knows what production pattern lurks in the heart of a [Sal] Gentile? I don’t and I’ve long given up trying to figure it out. Don’t you dare write to him (you stinker!) unless it’s to say you want me on more Ghost stuff. See ya, Pete

Glen had sent Pete a bound and trimmed book collecting his Thunderbolt comics.] I see now how important your “trimming” was—things could have gotten messy without it. Yep, Charlton’s color is getting better (new presses)—now it’s the colorists who are lousing things up. In the “Arrival of the Innocent” they colored the wrong part of the “ghost-outline” figures I used. Oh well, half a loaf…etc.

Charlton was Pete’s main client, and judging from his list of recent stories, they clearly kept him busy. Charlton’s publishers You’re right about the Crandall swipes, of course, (Damn were famous for their “laissez faire” attitude towards their creators. it)—either you’re getting extra sharp, or I’m swiping extra As long as their writers and artists were willing to get their work good—gotta watch it. As for the snake biting T-Bolt—I’m pretty in on time and do it for bottom level wages, Charlton was usually fine with letting sub-standard material go through. Charlton Quality! Writer Joe Gill, though talented, was the poster-boy for PAM was disappointthat attitude. As Charlton’s long-time writing workhorse, ed by the coloring of he churned out an amazing amount of stories for most of some of his stories. the Charlton comics, but “quantity over quality” was his For example, the credo. It must have been rough for someone like Pete, who clearly loved good comics, having to spend long hours illustrating Gill’s hastily hacked-out scripts. Later, when PAM created his own character for Charlton, “Thunderbolt,” he wrote it himself—and did a fine job.

Dear Glen—

3/1/71

First of all, thanks for the T-Bolt book—it’s a beauty and something I’ll always enjoy having. [MTG NOTE:

hair of the gal in this panel should have been blue with white highlights, instead of visa-versa. We feel your pain, Pete! “Arrival of the Innocent” appeared in The Many Ghosts of Dr. Graves #26 (June 1971). [© the respective copyright holders.]

Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt!

and therefore can (and does) say what he wants to, in no uncertain terms. Just saw The Witching Hour #14, and somehow just can’t appreciate any of the stuff in it. The J. Jones story had a lot of nothing in it. Stanley Pitt’s stuff (that Al raves about) was cold and stiff (like Murphy Anderson’s), and Al’s stuff (although a hell of a lot of work went into it) just “did nothing” to excite me. Al’s X-9, however, is still mighty good. See ya, Pete And finally we have an undated follow-up on Pete’s dealings with Charlton editor Sam Gentile: I told Sal “No more war stories,” so naturally he sent me another war story—that got lost in the Christmas mail— and before I was able to get in touch with Sal again, for a duplicate copy, three weeks were gone (what with Charlton closing certain days for the holidays, lousy mail service, etc. etc.). So now the script is finally sitting here, and that’s where it’ll stay, until I get good and ready to start it (Fightin’ Army #99—“The Superman’s Last Battle”). [MTG NOTE: It actually appeared in issue #100.] It’s almost impossible to have a conversation with Sal—because he says one thing—and then does the opposite. I think he’s allowing the Charlton people to bury him with a million and one things to do… And he’s neglecting his main job in the process. Dick [Giordano] would never have allowed it. But that’s the way it is… got to make the best of it. And finally, an excerpt from an undated letter from Pete: The war story’s finished—it came out so-so. Rewriting has become a way of life—with Joe Gill scripts. Bad—bad— most of them don’t even make sense. What hurts is that he can write when he wants to.

TheTop! This stunning, hand-colored Jack Cole splash page from New Friday Publications’ Silver Streak Comics #10 (May 1941) is likely the very piece that young Peter Morisi was given as an art student. We should all be so lucky! Pete would have been around thirteen at the time, and the original Daredevil was still basically second-lead in The Claw’s feature. Note the “Good Luck” inscription on the bottom of the page. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders; Daredevil is now a trademark of Marvel Characters, Inc.]

sure I told you it was from Everett’s stuff, when you were here. I know I told Everett—but he didn’t seem to remember. I know as a kid I flipped when I saw that sequence in Amazing Man—and when the situation came around to where I could use it, I just couldn’t resist swiping it. Maybe it was for “old times’ sake” or maybe it was in the hope of passing on the impact I felt to new readers, I really don’t know—but I think it turned out well. By the way, where did you see that [Amazing Man] book? It’s a rare item. Only Al Williamson had another copy of it (besides mine) that I know of, and he claims that he either misplaced it—or it was stolen from him. As for Alex Toth, I answered his letter as best I could. I thanked him for his comments, and told him where I agreed and disagreed. Then I balled him out, for not using his talent to “take charge” of this field, search out for a new trend—make a new trend—that gets comics away from this social involvement kick, and back to entertainment. Alex can work the way he does because he is a genius, a pace-setter, a guy who can look at the best stuff around and retain it, and put down on paper—better than the original. He’s a talent-plus guy who doesn’t need the comic book field,

That’s all we have room for this issue, but we plan to run more excerpts from the PAM Papers in the future. I should mention that Pete was also an avid comic art collector. In Jon B. Cooke’s Comic Book Artist #9, Glen Johnson talked to Pete about some of the prizes in his collection—including one by “Plastic Man” creator Jack Cole. Here’s Pete’s response: The Jack Cole original is a Claw vs. Daredevil splash page, done in colored inks, and it is a beauty. Probably done for Silver Streak Comics. I was working part time as a delivery boy in Manhattan, when one of those deliveries was next door to Lev Gleason Publications. After my delivery I knocked on Lev Gleason’s door and told him I was an art student, and did he have any old originals he could give me. He said, “Sure, son,” and give me the Cole original and a costumed hero strip called “13.” I think that was drawn by Jerry Robinson. Pete also described a Star-Spangled Comics cover he owned: As for the Simon & Kirby Guardian cover, I traded a fellow student for it, but don’t remember any details. All three of those originals are gems. Whew! Now that’s what I call a collector! Till next time,

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TED WHITE On Comics – Part II

The EC Four: Ted, Fred, Bhob, & Larry Introduciton by Bill Schelly

n Part 1 of our interview with prominent science-fiction author and fan Ted White (in A/E #146), he filled us in on his boyhood as a comic book fan and collector. In this installment, he’s in eighth grade in 1951 and is about to be contacted by another comics fan, named Fred von Bernewitz. Both would soon become pillars of EC fandom. Since Ted found other EC fans through SF fandom, the story gets a bit tangled, but, by the end of this installment, you’ll know how Ted White, Fred von Bernewitz, Bhob Stewart, and Larry Stark became friends and fellow EC enthusiasts. This interview took place by telephone in November 2014. It was transcribed by Brian K. Morris and reviewed by Ted White. TED WHITE: Do you know Fred von Bernewitz? BILL SCHELLY: We haven’t met in person, but yes, I know Fred. WHITE: Fred is my earliest non-school, non-neighborhood friend. He called me up and we had a phone friendship for about, I don’t know, six months before we met. BS: Where did he live? WHITE: He lived near Wheaton in Maryland. But he called me up because he’d seen that story, “The Kid with 10,000 Comics,” which was published in the Washington Daily News, which no longer exists but was a tabloid newspaper of the time. BS: And when was that published? Do you remember? WHITE: Oh, it must have been 1951. It’s right in that period when I’d just become a teenager, and a lot of things happened in a short period of time. People from the newspaper came out and interviewed me. The only photo they ran was of my pulp collection. They didn’t run any photos of my comics at all. BS: How did they find out about you? WHITE: I can’t remember. I was doing things to publicize my interest in old comics, you know. I was putting up little notices on bulletin boards: “If you have old comics,” blah, blah, blah. I can’t remember how it came about, but it was a nationally syndicated story. It was published all over the country.

Fred Von Bernewitz in the mid-1950s.

And I got a few phone calls from other parts of the country and a few letters, but they all boiled down to the same thing: “Why don’t you sell me your collection? I’ll give you some money for it.”

Ted White (on our left) as Guest of Honor at the 2016 PulpFest in Columbus, Ohio. That’s fan Jim Beard on the right. Photograph: William Lampkin. Special thanks to Mike Chomko of PulpFest.

BS: [laughs] Right. WHITE: I think what they were offering me was a pittance, like, “I’ll give you $10 for your whole collection,” or something nonsensical like that. It was all stuff that I blew off. The only contact of any value that came out of that was Fred. Fred and I finally met when my parents were visiting some friends of theirs in a part of Maryland that was fairly close to where Fred’s parents lived. On a Sunday afternoon, we arranged it so that they dropped me off at Fred’s house for a couple hours. So I got to hang out with Fred. We were, gosh, like twelve, thirteen years old. We discovered that we had more things in common than just comics. Now, with comics, we were both seriously into many of the same comics. We were both into the Captain Marvel family of comics, we were both into Walt Disney’s Comics & Stories. Fred was less into DC than I was, but not uninterested in it, and we were both getting into EC at that time. And then it turned out we were both huge fans of Les Paul, the musician. We both had all of his records, his and Mary Ford’s records, and Sauter-Finegan Orchestra. We were both into SauterFinegan Orchestra. BS: Les Paul was an innovator, right? WHITE: Yeah, so was Sauter-Finegan. We were sort of into what mattered to the avant-garde of pop music at that time. Fred and I became good friends and we’re still pretty good friends. I mean, we don’t see or talk to each other much these days, but when we do, we just pick it up wherever we left it off. BS: What about other interests, like the newspaper comic strips? Were you into those at all? WHITE: Related to that, just as a side note, I discovered that my grandparents had been keeping comics—not comics, newspapers— in a shed behind their house for years. I started going through them, finding the comics pages in them so that I could clip out the Funnyman strips, which were, of course, Siegel and Shuster. I put together a complete set of those strips, clipping out individual strips. I don’t know what became of them. BS: And as for other newspaper strips ….? WHITE: Somewhere around the early ’50s, I discovered that the local drug store newsstand carried two New York newspapers. They had the Sunday editions of the Daily Mirror and the Daily

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News. The way I noticed these was, each was wrapped with its Sunday comics so that the Sunday comics was what you saw. The paper was sort of inside the centerfold of the comics. BS: Well, they always say it was the comics that sold a lot of newspapers. WHITE: Yeah, obviously they did. And of course one of the papers—I don’t remember which one of them it was now—was running the Wayne Boring Superman strip, so I started getting those. And of course, in addition to Superman, there were other Sunday strips that I would clip, like Space Patrol and Beyond Mars and stuff like that. BS: I understand that you had begun to lose some interest in comics before you discovered EC. WHITE: Yes. I was prey to the general attitude then that “comics are for kids.” As I entered my teenage years, I started to feel that comics were slightly beneath me. Also, and equally important, they all changed. When I was ten or eleven, the super-heroes started to die out. BS: Right. WHITE: I had a subscription to All-Star Comics. The day I got a copy of All Star Western in the mail was sort of the end as far as I was concerned.

Zap! You’re A Cowboy! White remembers how he felt in early 1951 when, two months after reading All-Star Comics #57 (Feb.-March ’51), he was abruptly the recipient of a mail-subscription copy of All Star Western #58 (April-May ’51)! A/E’s editor, a few years younger, had exactly the same experience. (By the way, technically, in switching formats, DC dropped the hyphen in “All-Star,” which had been part of the indicia title since the first issue in 1940.) Art on ASC cover by Arthur Peddy & Bernard Sachs; ASW cover art by Gil Kane & Frank Giacoia. Thanks to the Grand Comics Database. [TM & © DC Comics.]

Sensation Comics became a romance comic, Flash [Comics] and All-American Comics folded, and all of a sudden, the stuff that I was interested in wasn’t there as much. That meant I bought a lot fewer comics. I tended to only buy comics that were by artists that I liked, like Simon and Kirby. BS: Mm-mm. You got pickier. WHITE: Yeah. As I say, the EC comics were never in my local drug store newsstands. BS: Why was that? WHITE: Leader News [which distributed EC comics] was a bad distributor. Leader News was one of the bottom-rung, bottomfeeder distributors. They had the least market penetration, probably, of any of the national distributors. I mean we’re talking about the days when there were two major distribution companies in most areas. There was American News— BS: And Independent News, which was partly owned by the same people who owned DC Comics… WHITE: —and then there were the independent distributors, who, all of them [together], would have one local outlet in any given area. The competition between these two distribution arms was such that you did get decent distribution, but you never got great distribution. Science-fiction magazines like Marvel Science Fiction or Other Worlds were hit or miss. There might not be enough copies to go to all of the outlets the distributor normally serviced, so they would just go to some of them. . BS: So you didn’t see what are now called the “Pre-Trend” ECs, such as Crime Patrol and War against Crime. WHITE: No, only in hindsight. I started EC Comics around the time that Mad started. BS: ‘52.

WHITE: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think Mad #3 was the first one I actually bought off a newsstand. BS: That probably would be the end of 1952. WHITE: Yeah, that sounds about right. That’s when I discovered the ECs and started buying them. Then I started buying extra copies of Mad and a few of the others, and bringing them to my high school and selling them at my high school, [Bill laughs] though I didn’t make a profit on them. I bought them for 10¢ a copy and I sold them for the same price. BS: You were proselytizing. WHITE: Yeah. Essentially, I was just providing a service. BS: Okay. So, you knew Fred. How did you get in touch with other EC fans like Bhob Stewart? WHITE: I met Bhob through another fan. What happened was, Other Worlds magazine had a little free personal ad section in the back. People would advertise their fanzines or what have you. And there was this guy in the Chicago area named Warren Frieberg advertising for Superman #1. I wrote to him and said, “I’m looking for Superman #1, too. When you get several copies offered to you, after you get yours, could you pass one on to me?” This was naive of me, because he never did have any copies offered to him, but he and I started corresponding. He was putting out a science-fiction fanzine called Brevazine. He sent me a copy. It was the first fanzine of any kind that I ever contributed to as an artist, a cartoonist originally, and then later, to some extent, as a writer. BS: So that was the beginning of your involvement in science-fiction fandom. WHITE: It was, yes. And I was 13 at that time.

Ted White On Comics—Part II

him to see 3-D. It wasn’t like he was blind in one eye, but there was some focusing issue so he could not see 3-D. But this was when 3-D comics were being published and Bhob figured out how 3-D worked. He had a hectograph, and he would do 3-D art on hectograph in red and green. [NOTE: As with ditto printing, hecto’s basic color was purple, but one could add other colors to the same printing master sheet: green, blue, red. —Bill.] BS: [chuckles] A very ambitious effort. WHITE: But because he couldn’t tell how well they were doing, he would send them to me and ask me how they “worked” in terms of the 3-D effect. [Bill chuckles] I would say, “Yeah, that works,” or, “That one doesn’t,” or whatever. I gave him his feedback on that.

Mad About “V-Vampires!”

BS: Same age as I was when I entered comics fandom.

Ted was a relatively latecomer to EC Comics, starting with Mad #3 (Jan.-Feb. 1953), which appeared on newsstands in November 1952. Mad #3’s cover was by editor/artist Harvey Kurtzman; the issue featured the classic KurtzmanWally Wood collaboration “V-Vampires!” [TM and © E.C. Publications, Inc.]

WHITE: My connection with EC fans was entirely through science-fiction fandom. To continue the story, I published my little Facts behind Superman pamphlet, the first one, in the fall of 1952. BS: Can we talk about that in some detail?

WHITE: Okay. Let me just say that, after I had it plugged in Brevazine, two or three people wrote me for copies. One was a guy named Eldon K. Everett in Washington State, and another was Bhob Stewart. Bhob and I became friends, pen pals you could say. In fact, when I started putting out my own fanzine in 1953, he was the co-editor of it after the first issue, for a while. BS: Was that Zip? WHITE: Zip, yeah. Bhob had an eye problem that did not allow

At some point—I can’t remember exactly when, probably in ’53 or ’54, no later than ’54—Bhob introduced me to a correspondent he had and we got into a three-way correspondence between the three of us. And that other person was Larry Stark. BS: I was anticipating that, but let’s back up now to your Facts behind Superman publication. How did that come about, and how did you get your first mimeograph machine?

WHITE: Well, it’s all intertwined. When I had been in eighth grade, I had done a little bit of work for the school newspaper, which, at that time, was mimeographed. They’d asked me to stencil a piece of my art for it. And I’d attempted to put my art on a stencil, but frankly, they had really poor equipment for it and it didn’t come out looking very good and I was not happy with it and I wanted to understand how mimeographing worked. And all the fanzines I was getting in the mail, most of them were mimeographed. BS: Sure. [NOTE: Point of explanation: Mimeograph printing was done by “cutting stencils” (using a typewriter or various drawing implements), securing them to a rotating drum, and putting ink inside the drum which was forced through the cut parts of the stencil onto sheets of paper. The base-line color is black, but other color inks could be used. It’s an entirely different process than ditto, aka spirit duplication. —Bill.] WHITE: Some of them were dittoed, but most of them were mimeographed. I wanted to learn how to mimeograph stuff. I discovered that Sears Roebuck was selling a small mimeograph machine. It would print up to 4-by-6-inch sheets or postcards. I think it cost ten or twelve dollars. My mother had a Sears account. We actually bought it by mail. And I bought cans of black, red, and blue ink. BS: Well, I can see where that would be good for things like stores wanting to send out sale notices to their customers, that sort of thing. Or clubs sending out announcements of upcoming meetings on postcards.

Bhob & The Bulletin Bhob Stewart, seen above in a portrait taken a few years after the heyday of EC, published The EC Fan Bulletin, dedicated exclusively to the output of William M. Gaines’ comic book company. Shown here is the cover of the second issue, sporting cover art by Bill Spicer. [Art © Bill Spicer.]

WHITE: You see, Brevazine was a postcard-sized fanzine, so I was primed for it. So I had my own mimeo. Well, now I need to produce something on it. [Bill laughs] I was teaching myself how to put artwork on stencil. Just to have a vehicle for this, I decided to do a little four-page pamphlet that was mostly traced Superman art printed in a couple of colors. I typed a little bit of text to go with the artwork, and ran off about twenty, thirty copies, something like that, not very many. I took some to school and handed a few out, sent some to Bhob Stewart and other people.

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BS: [chuckles again] You’ve got to start somewhere. WHITE: I would say probably a total of maybe ten people ever bought copies of that. BS: Okay. So, there were some typed pages to go along with the artwork. WHITE: Well, yes, in the ultimate one, which I was reasonably happy with at the time. BS: The cover looks nice. WHITE: It was divided into categories. You know, there was a category about the evolution of the “S” symbol and a category about how the cape evolved. There was text that explained all of the art, so it was at least 50% text. I thought it was a decent job. BS: And so some of the people that got this—in the ultimate version, anyway— were people that you were involved in with EC fandom like Fred.

The Facts Behind The Facts Behind Superman The Facts behind Superman was, as far as is known, the first fanzine dedicated to a single super-hero. Ted was able to print in multi-color by running the cover through his Sears mimeograph machine once for each color, after changing the ink. [Superman TM & © DC Comics.]

BS: Just four pages? WHITE: Yeah, or maybe six pages. I did at least two editions of it in that size. The second edition was better accomplished than the first, but wasn’t significantly different. And then, a couple of years later, after I put out my SF fanzine, Zip, on the mimeo and I’d gotten more practiced with the mimeo and more accomplished with it, then I put out the final edition which is the one most people are aware of, that’s maybe a dozen pages and has multi-color artwork. BS: Well, as I understand it, those earlier ones are called The Story of Superman and then the later one was the Facts behind Superman.

WHITE: Oh, yeah. Fred and Bhob and Larry.

BS: Okay, now we can jump to that triumvirate of you, Fred, and Larry. Or you, Bhob, and Larry, actually. Fred wasn’t that much of a writer, was he? WHITE: Not really, but whenever we were getting together—like, Larry came down here in 1954 to spend a weekend visiting me, when he was still going to Rutgers University—the first thing we did was get together with Fred. The three of us hung out together a lot. BS: And I think you or Fred or somebody shared with me photos of some of you guys together there. I’ve seen some with you and Larry together, I believe, or with Fred anyway, for sure.

WHITE: I wouldn’t—I couldn’t be sure of which is—I mean, I know the True Story of Superman was sort of the ultimate title of it. I’m not sure whether that was the first title or not. Somewhere in this house, I must have the leftover copies of them, but I have not been able to find them in the last 30 years. They’re worth money. BS: Oh, absolutely they’d be worth a lot of money. It’s sort of a proto-All in Color for a Dime. It could be seen as the very early beginning of your All in Color for a Dime contribution that came along. WHITE: Yeah, some people claim that it’s one of the first comics fan publications. I now know that it’s not, that the first comics fan publications came out ten years before that. BS: Or even earlier. WHITE: Of course, I did it in a total vacuum. I was totally unaware of any comic fandom when I did it. BS: Right. As far as you knew, you were starting comic fandom! [chuckles] WHITE: Well, except there wasn’t much of a fandom. It was just a few people, so there was not a large circulation.

Larry Stark (EC’s “number one fan,” according to Bill Gaines) with Ted White in 1956. Photo courtesy of Larry Stark (he’s the one on our right).

Ted White On Comics—Part II

doing and then was able to tell you how well you did it. BS: It’s nice to get letters from people who can actually write, who can actually express an intelligent thought. WHITE: Oh God, yes. You know, I had this horrible experience when EC, in the final one of their official Fan-Addict Bulletins, promoted several EC fanzines, including the fanzine that Larry and Bhob and I were doing which was called Potrzebie. [NOTE: “Potrzebie” was a mystery word that Harvey Kurtzman used in Mad. —Bill.]

For What It’s Wertham Incredibly, comic art scholar Carol Tilley unearthed Dr. Fredric Wertham’s personal copy of the great EC fanzine Potrzebie #1 among Wertham’s literary and research papers. Note the wrapper is postmarked “Kirbyville, Texas,” which indicates it was mailed to Wertham by Bhob Stewart. Photos: Carol Tilley. The latter’s article “Seducing the Innocent” about the good doctor and his research methods was cover-featured in Alter Ego #128. [Art © the respective artists.]

WHITE: Fred and I—there’s photos that I can no longer find now. There was one of Fred holding a copy of a really gory EC comic with his eyes bugging out and his tongue sticking out of his mouth here, just hamming it up like he— But I can’t find that photo now. That was taken in my room, sitting on my bed. BS: The connection wasn’t all through the mail. You would get together. You met these guys, so you have a personal connection with them. WHITE: Yeah. Not Bhob, because Bhob was living down in Kirbyville, Texas. But Larry lived up in New Jersey, so that was possible. In fact, in the summers of 1955 and 1956, Larry spent the summer here, living in my house with my folks and me, when he had a temporary job in DC. BS: A whole summer together? That’s enough time to really get to know someone. WHITE: Larry taught me an enormous amount. He was a mentor. I mean Larry was—oh, I don’t know, at least five years older than me. He was in college, I was in high school, and he knew stuff I didn’t. He knew stuff about literature I didn’t know, and he knew stuff about movies. He took me to see Citizen Kane for the first time, which was in the ’50s. We saw stage plays together, we saw movies like Rear Window together. After you saw a movie with Larry, there would always be a nice, long, interesting discussion of the movie. I would learn stuff about the movie that I hadn’t realized while I was watching it, just from talking about it with Larry. I had enormous respect for him. BS: Larry and Ron Parker allowed me to reprint his “Elegy” for EC piece from the fanzine Hoohah!—complete, unexpurgated—in the book on comics of the ’50s that I did for TwoMorrows’ American Comic Book Chronicles series. It had been reprinted elsewhere, but incomplete. WHITE: Larry was a fantastically good critic of EC, and of course, as you know, he was highly valued at EC. They gave him permanent lifetime subscriptions to their comics just because they valued getting his letters on them. And when I was editing Heavy Metal, Larry started sending me letters of comment. [chuckles] I could then immediately appreciate how it felt at EC when they got his letters. They were really great letters. They were the kind of letters every editor wants to get, because they’re intelligent, insightful, and informed letters in which he got what you were

BS: Potrzebie #1 is one of the greatest single issues of an EC fanzine of the 1950s, even though you printed it postcard-size. It had 34 pages, with articles by Larry and Bhob, and a fair amount of artwork.

WHITE: I got over 200, maybe as many as 500, requests from EC fans for a second issue of Potrzebie, and they were soul-crushing. Typically, they were written in crayon [Bill laughs] and would say, “Send me your—” whatever they called it; they probably didn’t call it a “fanzine”—“and if I like it, I’ll send you money.” BS: Right. The EC Fan-Addict Bulletin didn’t tell them how much money to send. WHITE: For the first two hundred of these, I sent back a penny postcard with all the actual details of how much the fanzine cost –it was either a nickel or a dime, it wasn’t expensive. And after I’d sent all 200 out, I didn’t bother to do any more, because I realized there was no point, because I never got any money back. Only two or three people actually sent me a dime, or whatever it was, for an issue. The second issue was going to be full-sized, and it was all on stencil. But I was incredibly disheartened by that response. I thought EC fans were human beings, and I found out they were all just baboons. BS: Kids, yeah. WHITE: And it really makes me wonder what kind of letters EC was typically getting. BS: At one point, Hoohah!—the great EC fanzine that came after Potrzebie—published its entire mailing list, and I think it was, like, 40 people. Since probably almost every active member of EC fandom was getting Hoohah!, it’s an indicator that EC fandom really boiled down to about 40 or 50 hardcore people. WHITE: Yeah, although a lot more people joined the official EC Fan-Addict Club. There were probably two or three thousand. As I recall, my number was either in the 400s or 600s. BS: Didn’t you become sort of a printer for a number of different fanzines in the mid-’50s? WHITE: Well, yeah. I developed myself as a mimeographer. In fact, for a time, I was a professional mimeographer here in Falls Church. Then I worked for a company in Washington, DC, where I ran their mimeography department. And I even had a mimeo service in New York City for a year after I moved to New York City.

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BS: I see. WHITE: I did make it a practice to mimeograph other peoples’ fanzines for them. Some people sent me their stencils by mail and I would run off the entire issue and ship them back in boxes. I wouldn’t collate them, but they had to do something. There were also some people who lived in this area. They would come over, and we’d go down in the basement and run off their fanzine for them. BS: These would have been mostly science-fiction fanzines, right? WHITE: Both EC and science-fiction. In 1954, I joined the local science-fiction club and I became active in local science-fiction fandom. Some of those were people who were putting out fanzines. And of course, I ran off Fred’s EC Checklist. BS: That was sort of Fred’s claim to fame, the first attempt to create an index of all the EC comics. WHITE: Yeah. The final checklists I did for Fred was in ‘62 or ‘63 when I was living in Brooklyn. NEXT: Stay tuned for the next installment, which completes our discussion of Ted’s involvement in EC fandom, and covers the coming of the Comics Code, the arrival of the Silver Age of Comics, and the writing of his “Spawn of M. C. Gaines” installment of All in Color for a Dime. Fascinating stuff!

He’s Making A Checklist… Fred von Bernewitz compiled and Ted White printed The Complete EC Checklist, the first comprehensive index of the output of a comic book company.

Celebrate the life of John Stanley, one of America’s greatest storytellers! “I would pile up all our blankets and stay awake till quite late reading Little Lulu comics and listening to Bob Dylan.” — Patti Smith “Little Lulu had incredible stories. I still read those Little Lulu comics from the late ‘40s, early ‘50s and they’re great.” — R. Crumb “[Stanley was] the most consistently funny cartoonist to work in the comic book medium.” – Fred Hembeck

John Stanley: Giving Life to Little Lulu by Bill Schelly

AVAILABLE WHEREVER BOOKS ARE SOLD MARCH 2017 350 ILLUSTRATIONS AND A 60,000 WORD BIOGRAPHY 180 PAGES - $39.99 US — HARDCOVER – 10" X 13" — FULL COLOR

in memoriam

Gaspar Saladino (c. 1927 – 2016) “Professional Letterers… Regarded Him As A Master” by Mark Evanier

ee that comic book cover at right? See the great logo on it saying “Swamp Thing”? That great logo was the handiwork of the man shown at far right.

Gaspar Saladino

For around five decades, you couldn’t read DC Comics without seeing and enjoying the contributions of Gaspar Saladino, who passed away on August 3, 2016, following a long illness. Sources vary on his birthdate, but he was either 88 or 90.

Thanks to pro letterer Todd Klein, via Mark Evanier’s blog www.newsfromme.com.

Gaspar was a letterer—one of the best in comics, and the man responsible for so many iconic logo designs. He was born in Brooklyn and attended Manhattan’s School of Industrial Art, picking up occasional money inking for comic books. Through the 1940s, he dabbled in comics for minor publishers, but his main career trajectory was towards fashion art. After a stint in the Army, he decided to try to find something steadier at one of the major publishers and showed his portfolio to editor Julius Schwartz at DC. Schwartz was unimpressed with the art but impressed with the lettering… and that was how Gaspar found his life’s occupation. He lettered for DC for more than fifty years. Schwartz had first call on his services for a long time, but Saladino’s crisp, attractive lettering could be found all across DC’s line, and he occasionally moonlighted for other publishers, especially when asked by an artist-friend. (Online sources say he lettered the early issues of Eerie for Warren Publishing. They’re wrong. His work for Warren was minimal.) Until around 1966, Saladino was the second banana letterer at DC, the first being Ira Schnapp. Schnapp was a gifted calligrapher and designer who was responsible for most of the cover

lettering, logo design, and house advertising there for years. In ’66, when artist Carmine Infantino was brought into management (eventually becoming publisher), he attempted to modernize the look of DC by replacing Schnapp with Saladino. Thereafter, Gaspar did most of the cover lettering, logo design, and house advertising. Schnapp left the company in 1968.

Gaspar designed hundreds of logos for the company, and, as time permitted, worked on the insides. When Swamp Thing by Len Wein and Bernie Wrightson became both a financial and creative success for DC in the ’70s, everyone agreed the comic wouldn’t be the same without Gaspar’s distinct and expressive lettering. When he had to miss an issue, the point was proven. He also occasionally worked for Marvel, often under the name “L.P. Gregory” or merely “Gaspar,” and was called upon most times when Mad needed someone to do fancy lettering.

The Avenging Logo Probably the first title logo Gaspar created for Marvel was this one, first used on The Avengers #97, but better displayed on the cover of #98 (April 1972). The letterer mentioned to associate editor Roy Thomas that he thought that mag could use a new logo. Roy agreed—and a day or two later, it had one. It’s also the basis of the logo for the two Avengers films to date. Cover pencils by John Buscema; inks by Barry Smith. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Many comic book letterers, including frequent award-winner Todd Klein, cite Saladino as an inspiration or even mentor. He truly was an artist himself, able to craft sound effects and display lettering that were as good as any artwork over which they appeared. His basic balloon lettering was clear and organic, and more than a few artists were known to ask, “Can you get Gaspar to letter my work?” He was also super-reliable, putting in long hours at the drawing board when necessary to meet deadlines. I interviewed Gaspar one year at a comic convention—before a room packed with professional letterers who regarded him as a master. He was a genuinely humble man, delighted to find that so many people noticed and appreciated what he had done.

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in memoriam

Michael Docherty (1955-2016) “Comic Book Artist, Animator, And Raconteur”

by Joellen Docherty

y husband, Michael Docherty, comic book artist, animator, and raconteur, shuffled off this mortal coil and went into the light on January 19, 2016. Michael was born in Glasgow, Scotland, in 1955 to mum Sarah and da Michael. It was during his school years at St. Mungo’s Academy that he and his friends discovered the writings of many actionadventure, sci-fi, and fantasy authors, but it was the words of Robert E. Howard that changed the course of Michael’s life. His one dream, as he often said, was “to go to America and draw Conan the Barbarian comic books.” Michael arrived in New York City not knowing a single soul. Soon after landing, he realized that NYC “was just Glasgow on steroids,” so he went west, settling in Santa Monica,

California, where he realized his dream of working with Marvel Comics drawing his hero, Conan. He did pencil work for Conan for many years, working on almost all of the Mike Docherty titles. He would go on juxtaposed with the dynamic splash page to lend his talents to he penciled for Marvel’s Conan the Barbarmany different books, as ian #269 (June 1993). Inks by Ricardo Villaa penciler and/or inker gran; script by Roy Thomas. [TM & © Conan for other companies and Properties International, LLC.] in independent collaborations on such titles as Spec War, A Violent End, and his last book, Red Fog. Michael also bestowed his flair with the pencil to the animation departments of several studios, and he did storyboard work for film, television, and commercials. His interests were vast and varied. He loved motorcycles and the open road. His Harley-Davidson was his baby, as was his old Ural motorcycle. He loved that bike so much that he had it shipped in from Scotland. Furniture design was a particular interest, and he designed many of the furniture pieces in our home. For Michael, the arts were everything. He loved it all. Paintings, glass blowing, sculpture—you name it, he loved it. He couldn’t be without his music. He didn’t care what kind of music it was, as long as it was good. And loud. He loved movies—old horror movies of the ’30s through the ’50s, movies about World War II, and fantasy films like The Lord of the Rings. And he loved TV: the old stuff, like Monty Python, M*A*S*H, Band of Brothers, and some of the new stuff, like Sons of Anarchy. The written word was Michael’s first love, a love instilled in him when he was a child, and it never left. And he loved comic books. Michael became a U.S. citizen in 2004, cementing his love for America. His family—me, adored niece Alissa, sisters and brothers-in-law Dianne, Wil, Carole, Greg, and John, nieces Christina and Tisha, and nephews Eric and Ryan— and his myriad friends love him and miss him terribly. In remembrance of Michael, keep your pens sharp. And wear your plaid shirts. Joellen Docherty wrote this piece for the Souvenir Book of the 2016 Comic-Con International: San Diego.

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by ROY THOMAS & BENITO GALLEGO

Now I understand why Edmond Hamilton, Otto Binder, and the other talented writers in editor Weisinger’s stable consistently turned out such dull scripts. (Overwritten panel captions, long-winded word and thought balloons, Superman’s incessant habit of thinking about or explaining why he left Krypton, how Green Kryptonite affected him, why he has super-powers, ad nauseum. All of this slowed the story down to a crawl and made it a real chore to read.) Mr. Weisinger’s writers were, like him, middle-aged men. They were extremely talented writers, but not really “down with the culture.” (Specifically, the culture of the 1960s.)

Perhaps Mr. Weisinger thought his audience was so young and in such flux that it was necessary to periodically review what the writers, artists, and editors already knew but thought we didn’t know? Meanwhile, over at Marvel, Shakespeare, er, Stan Lee assumed his audience was older, smarter, and in it for the long haul as paying customers. All I know for sure is that those “Legion” stories from Shooter (especially the ones drawn by the incomparable Curt Swan) were superb! John De Mocko You won’t get any argument from me there, John. Having written a handful of “Legion of Super-Heroes” stories myself in the early 1980s, I can well appreciate what Jim Shooter brought to the party. He clearly enjoyed the experience much more than I did—and did a far better job of it. Now onward to an equally laudatory (and very informative) letter from Glen Cadigan, a longtime “Legion of Super-Heroes” fan and fan-writer: Hi, Roy!

f any Silver Age subject deserves to serve as the model for this issue’s fabulous “maskot” image drawn and colored by Shane Foley, it would be a Flash figure originally penciled by the late great Carmine Infantino—and Shane has done it up proud! [Alter Ego hero TM & © Roy & Dann Thomas; designed by Ron Harris.]

Alter Ego #137 cover-featured a long interview with Jim Shooter, who entered the comics field in 1965, scribing tales for the “Superman Family” titles at DC under editor Mort Weisinger, and who served as Marvel’s editor-in-chief for nearly a decade beginning at the turn of 1978. Richard Arndt’s talk with Jim brought forth a cornucopia of comments, beginning with this appreciation by John De Mocko: Mr. Thomas, Loved the Jim Shooter interview in A/E #137! He came off as honest, confident, and straightforward. Sure, Mr. Shooter has his detractors, particularly from the period when he ran Marvel Comics. But when you have exacting standards and are also running a large company… well, not everyone’s gonna love everything you do. I especially enjoyed Mr. Shooter’s explanation of how he sold scripts to the ever-prickly Mort Weisinger. Mr. Shooter simply wrote the stories Marvel style (i.e., breezy dialogue, lots of movement and action, letting the artist draw what’s happening rather than the writer describing it). Mr. Shooter overlaid his understanding of this Marvel style onto Mr. Weisinger’s Superman Family characters. I wonder if Mr. Weisinger realized his 14-year-old discovery had co-opted DC Comics’ way of storytelling? Weisinger hated Marvel Comics and frequently referred to the competition as “Brand I.” “I” as in “I am so great,” “I am so talented,” etc. Well, OK, Stan (the Man) Lee did compare himself to William Shakespeare! OY!

Just finished reading the Jim Shooter interview and have a few comments: The photo of “George Papp” on page 10 isn’t Papp at all, but Edmond Hamilton, who, ironically enough, preceded Shooter as author on “Tales of the Legion of Super-Heroes.” On page 17, Shooter remembers Harry Broertjes as being “a journalist and member of CAPA-Alpha.” Broertjes was actually a college student at the time, and also the editor of The Legion Outpost fanzine, which is where that interview first appeared. It was later reprinted in The Best of The Outpost (still available! Plug, plug!) if people want to read it (or if they want to read an interview with an ’80s-era Roy Thomas! That’s there, too!). Fun fact: That issue of TLO was also where the photo on your cover was originally published. Not only was Shooter not paid extra for layouts, but he wasn’t even paid a full page rate as writer, because of his age! When I interviewed him years ago, he mentioned that he later heard that Edmond Hamilton confronted Mort Weisinger on the issue when he found out about it, then guilted him into giving Shooter a raise. (Hamilton and Weisinger went way back to the pulps together, so Weisinger actually listened!) Reportedly, the conversation went something like, “It’s bad enough that you’re using child labor…!” On page 25, when Shooter is discussing royalties, we’re in the 1980s by this point, so he’s referring to the Legion of Super-Heroes title, not their run in Adventure Comics. (And he’s right; only the Wolfman/Pérez New Teen Titans and the Levitz/Giffen Legion titles reached DC’s royalty threshold.) Glen Cadigan Sorry to hear that Jim was definitely underpaid in his early years, Glen… but it’s gratifying to learn Edmond Hamilton stood up for him. The mis-identification of “George Papp” was my goof, Glen. I should never have printed that photo when I had doubts about it myself. Besides,

re:

The Papers Of Record A/E reader/contributor Gene Reed recently informed us that he possesses copies of many of the office records of 1960s “Superman” group editor Mort Weisinger, the first man to buy stories for DC Comics from first Roy Thomas, then Jim Shooter—and he’s generously shared two of them with us here. (We’ve asked him to do a full examination of them for us one of these days!) (Left top:) Halfway down the 1965 page that begins with the story numbered “133,” Roy was happy to see that “142” entry for a story titled “Jimmy Olsen, Gangbuster,” credited to “Thomas” and apparently “paid” (i.e., the check was made out?) on June 15 as an “Adv” (advance), though it doesn’t cite the precise $50 that constituted an advance to help defray the cost of RT’s airfare to New York City to begin his new position as Weisinger’s assistant editor; Roy arrived in Manhattan on June 28. There’s no page count re what Roy recalls as an 8-pager. When Roy quit DC after one week of paid work, before he got around to doing the rewrite Weisinger wanted on the story, the editor handed the same general idea to veteran scripter Leo Dorfman and allowed him to do a story that was 10 2/3 pages long. It was published as “The Dragon Delinquent” in Superman’s Pal, Jimmy Olsen #91 (March 1966)—and has been reprinted in the black-&white trade paperback Showcase Presents: Robin the Boy Wonder, Vol. 1 (since Robin guest-starred therein). Only now, after more than a half-century, thanks to Gene Reed, does Roy finally know his original title for the tale!

we’d even printed a photo or two of Hamilton before. Guess I was just too eager to hope (and believe) that the pic was one of Papp—who is still visually a mystery-man so far as any comics historian I know is concerned. Frequent correspondent Jim Kealy also called my attention to the error. Actually, last issue, we reprinted a “Green Arrow” splash page by Papp that showed a cartoonist drawing the Emerald Archer—but we’ve no idea if Papp drew that artist to look like himself or not. (And, I’m sorry to say that wasn’t the only mistaken photo-ID in A/E #137, as you can see in the pic and caption on page 86.) One aspect of that issue’s lead interview that moved a couple of people to write was Jim Shooter’s remarks about Sol Brodsky’s position at Marvel from the early 1970s, after he returned to Marvel following his brief co-publishing foray at Skywald, through his death in 1984. I mentioned in a caption in #137 that my memories of Sol’s position didn’t square with Jim’s, but that I really didn’t know that much about his work situation and duties after mid-1976, when I left New York for California. One person who worked with Sol during much of the 1970s was Marvel

(Left bottom:) Amazingly (as noted in A/E #137), it was no later than early July of ’65 that Weisinger showed Roy a Shooterwritten script, Jim Shooter’s first story sale to DC. The “Legion of Super-Heroes” exploit “One of Us Is a Traitor” is noted on a later page that begins with the number “209” and is listed as “214”—with no notice of payment, but with a page count of 48! Maybe Jim’s original script was indeed that long; the published story, which appeared in Adventure Comics #346 (July 1966), ran to 23 pages, lengthier than any other yarn listed on either of these two records pages! But that still doesn’t answer the probably unanswerable question of why editor Weisinger sat on that script for seven months before buying several of the Pennsylvanian’s tales in one fell swoop in February of ’66! A late-1950s photo of Mort Weisinger, incidentally, was printed in our previous issue.

writer (and sometime editor) Tony Isabella, who had this to say about both the whole business: Dear Roy, I wish I could say I enjoyed Alter Ego #137 from cover to cover, but the Jim Shooter interview, with Shooter’s alternative version of

[comments & correspondence]

comics history, was problematic for me. As I’ve written on several occasions, we are all the heroes of our own stories. I’m not at all surprised Shooter tried to spin past events in a manner designed to stage him in the best possible light. What I take exception to is his revamping of history to achieve his goal. Without mentioning yours truly by Tony Isabella name, Shooter characterizes me as “a Christian [who was] writing Christian comics instead of super-hero comics.” This is undoubtedly a reference to his tampering with the ending of my two-year run on Ghost Rider, a story designed to remove the supernatural elements from the title and make it more of a super-hero title. Shooter has been trying to either justify that action of his or blame it on someone else for years. He comes up short both ways. I’ve written about this on several occasions, but I’m sure Jim Shooter we’ll cover it again when you corner me for that no-holds-barred interview we’ve discussed over the years. I wrote super-hero comics, as anyone familiar with my Marvel work in the 1970s can attest. Heck, I added super-villains to the “Living Mummy” strip and made other super-villains Hydra department heads in Daredevil. Some of these moves might not have been the best ideas, but I think they are proof of my super-hero leanings. As for whether or not I was a Christian… I was raised in the Roman Catholic faith, but hadn’t been a practicing Catholic since before I moved to New York to work for Marvel Comics. I did take a run at a more evangelical Christianity, but I found it as wanting as I did the Roman Catholic faith. In any case, my adding of a Jesus Christ figure to Ghost Rider had nothing to do with my religious beliefs. It had everything to do with believing there should be some sort of supernatural opposition to Satan and all the Satan-like figures in the Marvel Universe and my recognizing [that] people of faith were seldom represented in our comics. Diversity includes a broad spectrum of human beings. Comic books should represent that. The part of the Shooter interview that gave me the most pause was his attempt to diminish the late Sol Brodsky, a fine man revered by just about everyone who ever worked with him. During the years I worked at Marvel and with Sol, I never once got the impression his job consisted only of things Stan Lee didn’t want to do. Sol was brilliant and talented in so many ways. We had our own production office that dealt with the British weeklies, the black&-white magazines, and a number of other things most comics readers didn’t realize we were doing. Stan came to Sol for advice on numerous occasions. He valued Sol’s insights and knowledge. I wish I had listened to Sol more and stuck with him longer. I learned as much from him as I did from you and Stan… and more than I learned from anyone else at Marvel. Sol’s title was Vice President of Operations, a position that put him above Shooter in the Marvel hierarchy until Shooter was given his own Vice President title. Even after that, Sol’s department was busy and vigorous and free of Shooter’s control. Though I’d moved back to Ohio and didn’t work directly with Sol, I did do the occasional job for people in his department. I got the impression the department was a safe haven for talented “refugees” from Shooter’s editorial regime. Sol’s staff included

Ghost Writers In The Sky The third page of Ghost Rider #19 (Aug. 1976) may well be one of those in Tony Isabella’s script that was substantially rewritten by then-associate editor Jim Shooter. Only Isabella is listed as writer on the splash page, but the Grand Comics Database—though it gives no source for that information—credits Shooter with what it terms a “scripting assist.” The two scribes have radically different views on the story behind this story, as contrasted by Jim’s interview in A/E #137 and Tony’s letter on this page. Pencils by Frank Robbins; inks by Vince Colletta. The story has been reprinted in the b&w trade paperback Essential Ghost Rider, Vol. 1. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

John Romita, Marie Severin, Paty Cockrum, and many others. Had I remained in New York, I would have loved to have been part of that group. As this letter reaches into infinity, I must also note that, while Shooter originally contributed to the cause of ending the unexpected reprints that had plagued Marvel’s color titles, he was following in the footsteps of Marv Wolfman and Len Wein. It was those guys who ramped up the commissioning of fill-ins to cover Marvel’s butt when writers and artists missed deadlines. Marv even had the bright idea of commissioning tales that could, if needed, go into any of three different titles. For example, a story featuring Iron Man, The Avengers, and The Champions could be used in any one of those three titles. For a brief time, Marv wanted me to write a couple of fill-ins each month, but I wasn’t really suited for that task. Bill Mantlo stepped in and did a fine job. The saddest thing about Shooter is that his actual history includes some stellar achievements, some real benefits to creators, and more than a few humanitarian actions. He has every right to be proud of those. Yet, such is his character that he can’t live with even

re:

Two Of A Klein

the slightest blemish to his concept of his history. No one of us is perfect. Stan Lee, who taught Shooter and virtually every other writer of our generation how to do it, used to tell us that no villain is 100% bad and no hero is 100% good. The same is as true for human beings as it is for fictional characters. It’s a hard lesson to learn about oneself and even harder to accept, hence my mounting dread over my own future interview. Maybe someday Shooter will recognize this truth and accept it. He’ll be a better person for it. Tony Isabella Also, we don’t think Tony will mind our quoting a couple of additional paragraphs concerning the other contents of A/E #137 from a January 2016 edition of the online “Tony Isabella’s Bloggy Thing,” which is © 2015 by Tony: There’s lots of other good stuff in Alter Ego #137. The conclusion of Alberto Becattini’s study of legendary comics creator Dan Barry is a balanced examination of the man. Michael T. Gilbert gives us a look at some of his earliest comic work… and he’s a much braver man than I am. Bill Schelly reports on the fiftieth-anniversary panel of survivors of the very first comicon. There are heartfelt remembrances of the late Herb Trimpe that will make you feel the loss of this wonderful comics artist and man all over again. There’s a fascinating article on the British magazines that reprinted Captain Marvel and other Fawcett comics in the 1940s through the 1960s… and an informative and lively letters column. My problems with the Shooter interview aside, I can’t imagine not recommending any issue of Alter Ego to my readers. I think it’s the very best magazine on comics being published today. If you have an interest in comics history, you should give it a try. Thanks for the kind words, Tony. We’ll let your comments speak for themselves. Alter Ego is open to any response on the matter that Jim Shooter or another reader might care to make for a future letters column. Our aim is to be an arbiter in the service of the history of comics, not to try to be the definitive, final voice on anything. On a lighter note, an e-mail from Richard Pileggi: Dear Roy: I don’t know how you do it. You know just when I need a digital issue of Alter Ego. I’ve been on my back for two weeks from some illness and surgery. The Shooter issue couldn’t have come at a better time. Okay, my surname was misspelled, but who cares? More important is that Herb Trimpe’s 9/11 book got out there. That issue brought some tears to my eyes, seeing Phil Seuling’s photo. As you may recall, he was my counselor at Lafayette Day Camp in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, back in 1961 (?). In 1969, he wanted me to believe that my carrying a copy of Fantastic Four #4 in 1962 got him back into comics and eventually into conventions. God rest his soul. Richard A. Pileggi Alter Ego #137 also saw the fourth and final part of Alberto Becattini’s in-depth look at the life and career of artist Dan Barry, which had begun in #130. And wouldn’t you know—when nobody else came up with much in the way of corrections to his carefully researched piece, Alberto offered a few himself: Hello, Roy, I hope readers appreciated the final part of my Dan Barry essay [in A/E #137], and I also hope that Barry’s works may be rediscovered by those who haven’t paid much attention to them. In this respect, I think the Titan Books series of volumes reprinting Barry’s Flash Gordon strips may help revive that interest.

George Klein Following are some additions and corrections to the various chapters of the Barry essay. Part 1 – A/E #130:

Comics letterer Todd Klein wrote to inform us: “In the Jim Shooter lead article, you have an incorrect photo for artist/inker George Klein. The photo you have is of my father, who is not that person. Some fan must have found it and jumped to the conclusion that the photo was of the artist. The correct photo for the artist is now on the Wikipedia page for “George Klein comics,” and it’s a Wikipedia Commons photo, free to use. I’ve heard that the photo of my father has also been used in other TwoMorrows magazines. Please correct your database to replace the photo you have with the correct one, which I’ve attached for your convenience.” Thanks a heap, Todd. Hopefully, that mistake won’t happen again! The above photo is definitely George Klein, especially noted over the years for his inking of “Superman” and Marvel’s Avengers and, most likely, Fantastic Four #1 & 2!

At the end of the “Return of the Space Hero” paragraph, I have erroneously written that, shortly after starting the Flash Gordon strip, Barry moved to an apartment-studio at the Hotel des Artistes, located at 1 West 67th Street in Manhattan. In fact, Barry moved to a studio-apartment that was owned by the American Bible Society, located in the East Village, opposite Cooper Union. Barry moved to the Hotel des Artistes later on, in late 1953 or early 1954. Part 2 – A/E #131: Page 45, bottom caption and picture: The Flash Gordon daily strip shown here (July 21, 1956) was only written by Dan Barry. Pencils and inks are by Leonard Starr. Page 52, top caption: The second half should read: “The opening captions in the March 17, 1958, and May 5, 1958, strips inform the readers that the Flash Gordon strip is set ten years in the future.” Actually, the year 1968 was first mentioned in the opening caption of the January 27, 1958, strip, at the start of the “Pluto Spectacular” sequence, which was the first one on which Barry and Harry Harrison collaborated. It is then presumable that it was Harrison’s idea to set the strip ten years in the future. Curiously enough, the strip previously appeared to be set in the present. In the 1954 sequence “Peril Park,” Flash travels in time to the year 2554, and in the Sept. 2, 4, and 6, 1954, strips, it is clearly stated that 2554 is “six hundred years in the future.” Part 4 – A/E #137: Page 40: In the section “His Final Fling—with a Sexy Twist”— while revising this text from the original, much longer manuscript, I inadvertently left out an important detail about the “Slim & Nun” series. As movie fans will have certainly observed, it was a free adaptation of Don Siegel’s 1970 film Two Mules for Sister Sara, starring Clint Eastwood as a gunslinger named Hogan and Shirley MacLaine as Sara, a nun with a dubious past. Also, Slim’s friend and John Wayne lookalike Mac MacLain’s surname clearly pays homage to Shirley MacLaine. Page 41: In the bottom caption and picture—Dan Barry’s daughter Lois is not portrayed here (childhood photos of her appear in Part 1, pp. 11 & 20), but on a sad note it has to be said that she passed away on November 4, 2015, at the age of 71, as Steven Barry told me in a Jan. 26, 2016, e-mail. On p. 44, in the Checklist, under the “Publisher: GENERAL COMICS” heading, the following title should be added: “(p/cover) The Fight to Save America’s Waters #nn (1956).” Alberto Becattini

[comments & correspondence]

Watch ’Im Like A Hawk, Man! About the above, Alberto Becattini writes that it depicts “the May 23, 1975, Flash Gordon daily strip, which was written, drawn, and inked by Dan Barry. It is part of a long continuity entitled “The Making of a Legend” (Feb. 20-Sept. 6, 1975), in which Barry retold Flash’s early adventures on Mongo.” Thanks, Alberto! [TM & © King Features Syndicate, Inc.]

Thanks, Alberto. As you know, we plan to run another career-retrospective by you the first chance we get—but we’ll let it be a surprise to our readers as to who the subject will be! A short note from Hames Ware, one of the foremost experts on Golden Age artists, especially on the comic shops/studios of the period: Dear Roy, I wanted to give a nod to one of your astute letter-writers, who noted that some comic book art that Adolphe Barreaux did was taken from one of the earlier-published Spicy pulps. Comics inspirations from the pulps is an underreported phenomenon, and in the Barreaux case understandable, in that he was probably serving as art director for both publications, though years apart. Barreaux’s Majestic Studios also provided art for the comics, as fascinatingly documented on David Saunders’ wonderful pulpartists.com website. Hames Ware Maybe sometime you or another knowledgeable expert will write about the relationship between pulp and comic art, Hames. And, of course, we can’t recommend David Saunders’ website highly enough. In addition, he has kindly provided us with photos of pulp-related artists, writers, and publishers whose likenesses we’d never seen before, such as A.A. Wyn (in A/E #144), Fiction House editor/publisher T.T. Scott, et al. P.C. Hamerlinck, our fabulous FCA editor, offered this handful of corrections to the Fawcett Collectors of America section of A/E #137, at least one or two of which are probably the fault of the guy who’s typing these words: Hi Roy, I spotted a few errors in FCA as printed in A/E #137: Page 75: Whiz Comics cover art is by C.C. Beck, not Kurt Schaffenberger. Page 78: 2nd paragraph should say “See A/E #87” instead of “#7.” Page 79: “Captain Marvel Faces Fear” art should be attributed to both Beck and Pete Costanza. P.C. Hamerlinck Francis A. Rodriguez asks if a reference in #137 to “Hop Harrison” could have been a typo for the popular 1940s DC aviator, and we figure it well might have—except we’re not sure where the name appeared in the issue, and Francis didn’t say.

Also: somehow, in the several rows of vintage photos of those who had attended the first-ever comics convention in 1964, which were printed “yearbook-style” on page 63 of #137, we managed to omit a photo of Ethan Roberts—even though he was the gent who’d organized the 50th-anniversary “survivors” panel at the 2014 New York Comics Convention, a transcription of which made up the main portion of Bill Schelly’s “Comic Fandom Archive” in that issue. We apologize profusely for the mistake. A 1964 photo of Ethan had appeared in an earlier issue, accompanying a piece written by one of that con’s other major hosts, Bernie Bubnis. Sadly, Ethan passed away recently; a tribute to him appeared in A/E #146. Send all comments re this issue, good, bad, and ugly, to: Roy Thomas e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com 32 Bluebird Trail St. Matthews, SC 29135 And, in closing: We know your problem. There’s just not enough of Alter Ego to sustain you for a two-month period. That’s why the Alter-Ego-Fans e-mail list exists. We’re so Old School that we even use the original hyphenated version of the title in the list’s name! Subscribers to the list will learn past, current, and future topics of A/E articles and have the “opportunity” to occasionally scan a page or two from their comic book collections to help RT adequately illustrate upcoming articles—in exchange for a comp copy, of course. Readers of A/E and related material (including Golden and Silver Age comics) will be welcomed with open arms. Contact “Granpa Chet” Cox at mormonyoyoman@gmail.com or visit http://groups.yahoo. com/group/alter-ego-fans to take your Alter Ego experience to the next level. Yahoo Groups has eradicated its “Add Member” tool for moderators, so if you find it won’t let you in, contact Chet directly and he’ll walk you through it! Also—NEW! Collector John Cimino finally talked Ye Ed into going Facebook—at least indirectly. With Roy the Boy’s blessing, John has launched what he’s christened “The Roy Thomas Appreciation Boards,” to discuss RT’s current and past work, the comics cons where he’ll be appearing, upcoming publications (including issues of Alter Ego), and his personal thoughts about what’s going on in the world of comics, movies, whatever. It’s fully interactive, as John does periodic live interviews with “Rascally Roy,” when you can ask him anything you like. Join today—and see the interview they recorded last April at a comics-signing event in Chicago. You’ll even hear Roy and John sing a few bars of “Heartbreak Hotel”! (You have been warned….)

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Incredible interview with JIM SHOOTER, which chronicles the first decade of his career (Legion of Super-Heroes, Superman, Supergirl, Captain Action) with art by CURT SWAN, WALLY WOOD, GIL KANE, GEORGE PAPP, JIM MOONEY, PETE COSTANZA, WIN MORTIMER, WAYNE BORING, AL PLASTINO, et al.! Plus FCA, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY, and more! Cover art by CURT SWAN!

Science-fiction great (and erstwhile comics writer) HARLAN ELLISON talks about Captain Marvel and The Monster Society of Evil! Also, Captain Marvel artist/ co-creator C.C. BECK writes about the infamous Superman-Captain Marvel lawsuit of the 1940s and ‘50s in a double-size FCA section! Plus two titanic tributes to Golden Age artist FRED KIDA, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY, and more!

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JIM AMASH interviews ROY THOMAS about his 1990s work on Conan, the stillborn Marvel/Excelsior line launched by STAN LEE, writing for Cross Plains, Topps, DC, and others! Art by KAYANAN, BUSCEMA, MAROTO, GIORDANO, ST. AUBIN, DITKO, SIMONSON, MIGNOLA, LARK, KIRBY, CORBEN, SALE, SCHULTZ, LIGHTLE, McKEEVER, BENDIS, and more! Cover by RAFAEL KAYANAN!

Golden Age great IRWIN HASEN spotlight, adapted from DAN MAKARA’s film documentary on Hasen, the 1940s artist of the Justice Society, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Wildcat, Cat-Man, and numerous other classic heroes—and, for 30 years, the artist of the famous DONDI newspaper strip! Bonus art by his buddies JOE KUBERT, ALEX TOTH, CARMINE INFANTINO, and SHELLY MAYER!

From Detroit to Deathlok, we cover the career of artist RICH BUCKLER: Fantastic Four, The Avengers, Black Panther, Ka-Zar, Dracula, Morbius, a zillion Marvel covers—Batman, Hawkman, and other DC stars—Creepy and Eerie horror—and that’s just in the first half of the 1970s! Plus Mr. Monster, BILL SCHELLY, FCA, and comics expert HAMES WARE on fabulous Golden Age artist RAFAEL ASTARITA!

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DON GLUT discusses his early years as comic book writer for Marvel, Warren, and Gold Key, with art by SANTOS, MAROTO, CHAN, NEBRES, KUPPERBERG, TUSKA, TRIMPE, SAL BUSCEMA, and others! Also, SAL AMENDOLA and ROY THOMAS on the 1970s professional Academy of Comic Book Arts, founded by STAN LEE and CARMINE INFANTINO! Plus Mr. Monster, FCA, BILL SCHELLY, and more!

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90 Article Title

“SHAZAM!” He Says

The Influence Of Captain Marvel On Some Famous (& Infamous) Mortals by Paul Power Edited by P.C. Hamerlinck

Introduction

Fred MacMurray

et’s start with a little personal backstory: I was born on November 5, 1954. Fawcett’s comic books were kaput by the time I was born, as were most of the other exciting American comic book companies in the Dr. Wertham era. It was not a good year for comic book artists and writers. The comics publishing industry was being bashed for corrupting young minds in the U.S. We also had the lawyers representing Superman/National/DC put the boot to Fawcett’s neck in their phony lawsuit against The Big Red Cheese in 1941-1953. Doctor Sivana couldn’t have done a more dastardly deed to young Billy Batson himself.

Before reading any further, please take a look at the Captain Marvel tribute page I drew, and that Steve Oliff colored, on the facing page. Why would C.C. Beck use actor Fred MacMurray as the model for Captain Marvel in the first place? Let’s use a quote from the man himself from the book Fawcett Companion. Beck: “I based the characters on famous actors of the time because I knew I couldn’t create a character out of my head. Nobody can create a character: characters create themselves in answer to what people are looking for. At the time, Fred MacMurray was a very popular actor and I used him as the basis for Captain Marvel. He had a slanted forehead, wavy hair, and a big chin.” What Beck had left out was that Fred MacMurray was also a very well-built bloke. You wouldn’t know that from his Disney films, now would you, eh?

As I got older and became a working commercial artist and cartoonist in Australia. I’d show my portfolio to advertising clients. Throughout 1971 I was getting the same question from various art directors repeated to me while they were looking over my artwork: “Do you like Captain Marvel comics?” “Sure!” I said. “But I haven’t seen a lot of those comic books. I only own three issues.” They would tell me that my drawings reminded them of those old comics and then nostalgically tell me stories about the good Captain’s adventures that they had read with great fondness as kids. I later bought Steranko’s History of Comics when it was released in 1972, and read his chapters on Fawcett. (I hope it gets reprinted in hardcover with color someday.)

Beck used other actors as well, such as Australia’s favorite son in Hollywood, Errol Flynn, who was his model for Spy Smasher, and Tyrone Power in the guise of Ibis the Invincible. That makes perfect sense to me as a movie storyboard artist and cartoonist.

Well, the best part of those interviews with the art directors was that it would result in either a freelance gig or art staff job … with folks like Cam Ford (animator on the Beatles movie Yellow Submarine and on Superfriends) … and actor Sir Anthony Hopkins would also hire me, all because of fondness for Captain Marvel. The point I’m making is that Captain Marvel has played a part in my life as a cartoonist, and so I became a fan and, to this day, I still find people in show business here in Hollywood who speak fondly of those old Fawcett comic books. Why? It’s because you, the reader, could tell that the creative people themselves behind those comics were having great fun doing their work on Captain Marvel and family … and, when the show was over, quite a few of those same creative people and employees were never the same again, as past articles in Alter-Ego/FCA will attest.

And Nobody Changed His Name To “Captain Kangaroo”… Perhaps this 1950 Australian edition of Captain Marvel Adventures (reprinting stories from U.S. CMA #111) was one enjoyed by our author, Paul Power. Art by C.C. Beck & Pete Costanza. [Shazam hero TM & © DC Comics.]

Fawcett Collectors of America

Capes & Colbert A movie poster and two images from No Time for Love (1943, Paramount), the Claudette Colbert-co-starring comedy with the amazing dream sequence featuring leading man Fred MacMurray as a super-hero. The screen captures above reveal MacMurray as the spitting image of Captain Marvel come to life! Of course, by this time, the World’s Mightiest Mortal had already been around in comics for more than three years—and had even had his own Saturday morning serial. [© the respective copyright holders.]

Now, as a young fellow during the 1960s, I remember watching Fred MacMurray on TV in My Three Sons and in Disney films like Son of Flubber and The Happiest Millionaire. Even earlier in the ’60s I saw Fred in a film that blew my young mind. It was a Claudette Colbertco-starring Paramount movie from 1943 titled No Time for Love. The film was actually shot in 1942. It featured a bare-chested fellow with big biceps and triceps… the arms of Fred MacMurray! Who knew that

Maybe It’s The Hat… MacMurray (seen at left with co-star Vera Ralston) was super-heroic in Republic Pictures’ 1954 movie Fair Wind to Java … looking a little like Captain Marvel in the above splash panel of the story “Jack-ofAll-Trades” from Whiz Comics #54 (May ’44); script by Otto Binder, art by C.C. Beck & Pete Costanza. [Shazam hero TM & © DC Comics; movie poster © the respective copyright holders.]

“SHAZAM!” He Says

Captain Marvel was built like Fred MacMurray! Also, take a look at MacMurray in Republic’s Fair Wind to Java from 1954. He looks like a super-hero in that flick, too. And, in the 1945 Paramount film Murder, He Says, ol’ Fred strikes me as playing the perfect Captain Marvel from one of his more comedic Fawcett tales.

Feudin’, A-Fussin’, & A-Fightin’ In the Paramount hillbilly comedy Murder, He Says (1945), Fred MacMurray’s performance reminded Paul Power of Captain Marvel from one of his more light-hearted adventures, such as Cap and family’s “Marvel Family Feud,” written by Bill Woolfolk and drawn by C.C. Beck for The Marvel Family #20 (Feb. ’48). [Shazam heroes TM & © DC Comics.]

the Daddy-O from My Three Sons pumped iron? In No Time for Love he plays a flying superhero named “Captain Ryan” in Claudette’s “romantic rescue me darling” dream sequence. I was knocked out by the fun of it all. It’s Fred MacMurray flying through the air as an almostCaptain Marvel! SHAZAM, brother, SHAZAM! It’s well worth any comic book fan’s attention. Fred was a weightlifter who hid behind cardigans in his Disney films. He was built like Captain Marvel at a height of 6’ 3”… or, I should say,

The Face Is Familiar, But I Can’t Place The Costume How did MacMurray feel about being the inspiration for a superhero? FCA’s editor, P.C. Hamerlinck, finally found out when one of the actor’s daughters contacted him in 1998 regarding his selfpublished FCA #59, which had sported an Alex Ross MacMurrayas-Captain-Marvel cover. [Shazam hero TM & © DC Comics; other art © Alex Ross.]

FCA editor P.C. Hamerlinck found out how Fred had felt about his Captain Marvel likeness in 1998 when he received a letter from one of the actor’s daughters, Katherine, requesting a copy of FCA #59 — which featured an Alex Ross cover of MacMurray as Captain Marvel. She reported that her father “was not happy at all about resembling a cartoon character,” but that her mother (June MacMurray) and her siblings “loved the fact that he looked like Captain Marvel!”

Fawcett Collectors of America

Toth Or Dare “Keep up the good work!” the legendary Alex Toth admonished the FCA editor, along with providing this illustration which became the cover for FCA #57 (1997). [Shazam hero TM & © DC Comics; other art © Estate of Alex Toth.]

So, that was the end of any chance of Toth working for Fawcett, but not of his fondness for Captain Marvel. Years later, Beck and Toth would become long-distance pen pals. The admiration between them was mutual. Later, in the 1970s at DC, Shazam! editor Julie Schwartz and Alex Toth still had a very strong dislike for each other personally. Again, there was no chance of Alex drawing Captain Marvel, not while Schwartz was the editor of DC’s Shazam! So, believe me when I tell you that Alex really wanted to draw Captain Marvel.

My 17-year-old self offered to write a letter to Julie to request that Alex draw at least one Shazam! story. Toth smiled at me and nixed the idea. Then told me over dinner the whole dreaded story about how he had wanted to punch Julie’s lights out back in the ’50s and quit National/DC Comics. He should’ve gone straight back over to Fawcett Publications, by crikey! (The Toth-Schwartz feud is detailed in the final interview Alex Toth gave me along with Anson and Benton Jew in my Jon Fury in Japan comic book that I published in 2011.) Toth wanted to illustrate a

Alex Toth The Sound & Jon Back in 1973 Alex Toth and I worked on Fury Superfriends at Eric Porters Studios in North Sydney, Australia, just a stone’s throw across the (Above:) Alex Toth (on left) and Paul Power. Sydney Harbor Bridge. One day Alex received Photo courtesy of Paul. a package from Hanna-Barbera cartoonist Bob (Right:) The TothFoster. Included in the package was a copy of Power cover collaboraDC’s latest comic book, Shazam! –issue #1. We tion for the Jon Fury read it together, and that’s when Alex told me comic produced by about the days when he was making the rounds Paul Power, featuring at all the comic book companies as a budding newly-colored advenartist looking for a gig. He had gone up to ture strips by Toth from Fawcett Publications to see if he could get some the ’50s … and the lastcomic book work. He may have been only 16 published interview or 17 years old at the time. While waiting to be with the master artist. [© Paul Power & Estate seen at Fawcett, he saw C.C. Beck in passing … of Alex Toth.] a thrill for him, as he was a big Beck fan. But his excitement that day soon took a turn for the worst. He was interviewed by Otto Binder’s older brother, artist Jack Binder, who gave young Alex Toth a hard time over his samples.

Jack Binder 1940s photo detail of the artist.

Jack trashed Alex’s work as “lousy.” I personally believe that Binder thought that Toth didn’t draw the samples in his portfolio. Remember, Alex was a wunderkind artist, even in his teenage years. Some of his sample pages were of Captain Marvel and Billy Batson. Jack Binder so infuriated young Toth that he tore every piece of his artwork to shreds! The tearful teenager was so upset that he called Jack Binder a “son of a bitch”! Alex had balls, even back then. The sad part of this is, if it were C.C. Beck who had seen Alex’s work instead of Binder, we might have seen Captain Marvel by Toth back in 1948. I personally think that Toth was a far better cartoonist than Binder, even back then.

“SHAZAM!” He Says

to look like Captain Marvel and Steve Reeves of the Hercules films. (In 1974, Robert Nailon was featured in the back of Marvel and DC comic books in weightlifting ads that stated, “You too can have a body like this!” Those muscle-building ads in those old comic books really worked … that is, if you were willing to train hard and eat a very healthy diet.)

A Rundown Trio (Left to right:) Paul Power… the future “Black Adam” of DC’s cinema world, Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson… and Power’s fellow Judoka and ex-UFC fighter/actor, Roman Mitichyan. The photo was taken during the filming of the 2003 action-comedy The Rundown, in which Power had an acting role.

few more features for DC. They were: “Wildcat,” “Plastic Man,” and—you guessed it—Captain Marvel! It’s a crying shame that he never got to draw those stories. Even towards the end of his life, he wanted to draw them. He had the strong urge to draw comics again, but that’s another story. (He did draw a bit on my East Meets West #3.)

Anthony Hopkins Before continuing, I’d like to add that the following actors, musicians, and bodybuilders were “Captain Marvel” readers as kids and as adults: Dean Martin and his comedy partner, Jerry Lewis, used to pick up dozen of comic books for Dean to read between acts in the ’40s and ’50s. Dean could be seen reading Batman, Superman, EC comics, and Captain Marvel between camera set-ups on their films and live stage acts. Dean loved comic books, and he never hid the fact that he did and would read them anywhere. Jerry Lewis said the only time Dean came unglued from his cool, smooth persona was when he met two people: his first time meeting Frank Sinatra … and meeting Batman’s Bob Kane! Other celebrity Fawcett comic readers were Elvis Presley, Clint Eastwood, Tommy Chong, Sir Anthony Hopkins, Joey Molland of Badfinger, Country music legend Hank Williams (some of whose famous country songs were inspired by the comic books he read), and the Beatles! Captain Marvel gets a mention in John Lennon’s “The Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill” on the Beatles White Album. All of them were Captain Marvel fans. Wait, there’s more! Many of you remember the ads for bodybuilding in the back of old comic books, right? I trained at the gyms of two of Australia’s most famous bodybuilders: strongman/ wrestler Paul Graham and Robert Nailon. They both noted that they were inspired to work out and

My Captain Marvel job connections continued. In the summer of 2006 I get a call to see a first-time director named “Tony” for a metaphysical flick starring some really fine actors. I head over to Culver City studios and I’m invited to lunch by Hannibal Lecter himself … It’s Sir Anthony Hopkins! … a very “Holy Moley!” moment for me. We go to his trailer and he tells me that he likes my storyboard artwork because it brought back some fond memories for him. Hopkins: “You know, Paul, your drawings took me back to 1948 in Wales when I was ill, stuck in bed for weeks, and a friend of mine’s dad was a merchant marine who would bring back ‘Captain Marvel’ comic books from the USA. I loved ‘Captain Marvel’! I pored over every page! So, er, would you like to storyboard for me on Slipstream?” “Sure! You bet, Sir Anthony!” I replied. “Oh, call me Tony!” he said. Then he stopped and stared at me for what seemed like an awkward moment. I’m thinking, “Oh no! Do I have a booger hanging off my nose?” Then he pointed at me suddenly and, in a surprised voice, blurted out, “You shot The ROCK!” To which I quickly answered, “Yes, I did!” Hopkins then asked, “Do you want to act in this movie?” You see, he remembered seeing me in The Rundown, directed by Peter Berg and starring Dwayne “The ROCK” Johnson (soon to play Black Adam on the big screen!). So, not only did I get to storyboard 75% of the film, I also played the part of a tough little guy named “Martin.” I’ve had some lucky breaks in Hollywood, and it seems that the Power of old Shazam is in my corner. Sir Anthony Hopkins is not only a fine actor but also one of the nicest people I’ve ever had the pleasure to work for, and we kept each other laughing. Slipstream is a very trippy film about life and death and parts in between. Thank you, Tony!

Call Him “Sir”—Or Maybe “All-Father”! (Above:) Academy Awardwinning actor Sir Anthony Hopkins, seen here in a scene from The Mask of Zorro (1999). Of course, he’s also played Odin, father of Marvel’s Thor. (Right:) Slipstream, the 2007 film directed by and starring Anthony Hopkins … with storyboards by Paul Power. [TM & © the respective copyright holders.]

Fawcett Collectors of America

Duane Eddy Another good old mate of mine is that “master of the twangy guitar” — Duane Eddy! An American rock ’n’ roll icon, his guitar hits included “Rebel Rouser” in 1957 and “Peter Gunn,” which became a huge hit twice — first in 1959 and again in 1986 (with the Art of Noise). Eddy was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1994. He has performed with electric guitar masters Chet Atkins and Les Paul and has had a profound influence on a long list of many famous guitarists, including Davies, Entwistle, Molland, Springsteen, and the Beatles.

With One Magic Single… (Left:) A 1960 record reissue of Duane Eddy’s hit single, “SHAZAM!,” which was also featured in the Dick Clark Columbia film Because They’re Young. [© the respective copyright holders.] (Right:) A signed pic to Paul Power from “The Master of the Twangy Guitar”, Duane Eddy.

Paul McCartney set up a meeting with John Lennon on an open double-decker bus in Liverpool one night with a 15-year-old George Harrison in tow. George played a few chords of a Duane Eddy tune. Lennon clasped the neck of Harrison’s guitar and said, “Right! Yer IN!” That was the start of the Beatles, thanks in part to Duane Eddy. I recently asked Duane for some memories of his reading “Captain Marvel” comics as a kid and his thoughts on the concept of recording his song “SHAZAM!” in 1959: “I was a comic book reader like most kids of my age back then. I liked Billy Batson shouting ‘SHAZAM!,’ then Captain Marvel would turn up and save the day. Sometimes I liked Superman more, and switched back and forth between the two. How did I associate the music with Billy Batson and Captain Marvel that became the recording of ‘SHAZAM!’? If you listen to the first ‘broken parts,’ that sort of signifies Billy changing into Captain Marvel. Then, after he

changes, he takes off flying in the musical straight part. Then you can imagine him having different adventures (the sax solo, etc.). Simple as that.” I also asked Duane about recording with George Harrison on the Duane Eddy record in 1986: “We were in George’s studio in Friar Park one afternoon and we took a break from recording two tracks (‘The Trembler’ and ‘A Theme for Something Really Important’), and he and Jeff Lynne began talking about some of my records. Everyone has a favorite from any artist’s body of work. Jeff announced that his favorite of mine was ‘Dance with the Guitar Man.’ George said his favorite was ‘SHAZAM!’” So, boys and girls, maybe, just maybe, Captain Marvel had a little part to play in the forming of the Beatles on a double-decker bus one night in Liverpool, England. YEAH! YEAH! YEAH! A former boxer and judoka, Australian cartoonist Paul Power is the creator of Professor Om and the sci-fi/Western comic book series East Meets West. He was mentored by Alex Toth while working on Superfriends in Sydney, 1973. He worked for John Dixon on the comic strip Air Hook & the Flying Doctors and is one of the most in-demand and most outrageous storyboard artists in Hollywood. Paul’s credits include The Rundown (in which he also acted), Con Air, The Mummy, Goonies, RoboCop, Pretty in Pink, I’m Gonna Get You Sucka, Top Gun, Red Dawn, Welcome to the Jungle, Runaway Train, The Great White Hype, Say Anything, The Edge, Superman Returns, Lost, The Marine, Scooby-Doo, Cheech & Chong’s Nice Dreams, and Cheech & Chong’s Next Movie. Paul was writer/director with John Romita Jr. on the film I Just Draw! paulpower.com

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DRAW #34

Showcases GIL KANE, with an incisive and free-wheeling interview conducted in the 1990s by DANIEL HERMAN for his 2001 book Gil Kane: The Art of the Comics— plus other surprise features centered around the artistic co-creator of the Silver Age Green Lantern and The Atom! Also: FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America), MICHAEL T. GILBERT, and BILL SCHELLY! Green Lantern cover by KANE and GIELLA!

STAN LEE’s 95th birthday! Rare 1980s LEE interview by WILL MURRAY—GER APELDOORN on Stan’s non-Marvel writing in the 1950s—STAN LEE/ROY THOMAS e-mails of the 21st century—and more special features than you could shake Irving Forbush at! Also FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America), BILL SCHELLY, and MICHAEL T. GILBERT! Colorful Marvel multi-hero cover by Big JOHN BUSCEMA!

Golden Age artist FRANK THOMAS (The Owl! The Eye! Dr. Hypno!) celebrated by Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt’s MICHAEL T. GILBERT! Plus the scintillating (and often offbeat) Golden & Silver Age super-heroes of Western Publishing’s DELL & GOLD KEY comics! Art by MANNING, DITKO, KANE, MARSH, GILL, SPIEGLE, SPRINGER, NORRIS, SANTOS, THORNE, et al.! Plus FCA, BILL SCHELLY, and more!

GREG HILDEBRANDT (of the Hildebrandt Brothers) reveals his working methods, BRAD WALKER (Aquaman, Guardians of the Galaxy, Birds of Prey, Legends of the Dark Knight) gives a how-to interview and demo, regular columnist JERRY ORDWAY, JAMAR NICHOLAS reviews the latest art supplies, and BRET BLEVINS and Draw! editor MIKE MANLEY’s Comic Art Bootcamp! Mature Readers Only.

(100-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $9.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95 • Ships Oct. 2017

(100-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $9.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95 • Ships Dec. 2017

(100-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $9.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95 • Ships Feb. 2018

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships Winter 2018

BACK ISSUE #100

BACK ISSUE #101

BACK ISSUE #102

BRICKJOURNAL #48

“BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES’ 25th ANNIVERSARY!” Looks back at the influential cartoon series. Plus: episode guide, Harley Quinn history, DC’s Batman Adventures and Animated Universe comic books, and tribute to artist MIKE PAROBECK. Featuring KEVIN ALTIERI, RICK BURCHETT, PAUL DINI, GERARD JONES, MARTIN PASKO, DAN RIBA, TY TEMPLETON, BRUCE TIMM, and others! BRUCE TIMM cover!

100-PAGE SPECIAL featuring Bronze Age Fanzines and Fandom! Buyer’s Guide, Comic Book Price Guide, DC’s Comicmobile, Super DC Con ’76, Comic Reader, FOOM, Amazing World of DC, Charlton Bullseye, Squa Tront, & more! Featuring ALAN LIGHT, BOB OVERSTREET, SCOTT EDELMAN, BOB GREENBERGER, JACK C. HARRIS, TONY ISABELLA, DAVID ANTHONY KRAFT, BOB LAYTON, PAUL LEVITZ, MICHAEL USLAN, and others!

ROCK ’N’ ROLL COMICS! Flash Gordon star SAM J. JONES interview, KISS in comics, Marvel’s ALICE COOPER, T. Rex’s MARC BOLAN interviews STAN LEE, PAUL McCARTNEY, Charlton’s Partridge Family, David Cassidy, and Bobby Sherman comics, Marvel’s Steeltown Rockers, Monkees comics, & Comic-Con band Seduction of the Innocent. With AMY CHU, JACK KIRBY, BILL MUMY, ALAN WEISS, and others!

MERCS AND ANTIHEROES! Deadpool’s ROB LIEFELD and FABIAN NICIEZA interviewed! Histories of Cable, Taskmaster, Deathstroke the Terminator, the Vigilante, and Wild Dog, plus… Archie meets the Punisher?? Featuring TERRY BEATTY, MAX ALLAN COLLINS, PAUL KUPPERBERG, BATTON LASH, JEPH LOEB, DAVID MICHELINIE, MARV WOLFMAN, KEITH POLLARD, and others! Deadpool vs. Cable cover by LIEFELD!

THE WORLD OF LEGO MECHA! Learn the secrets and tricks of building mechs with some of the best mecha builders in the world! Interviews with BENJAMIN CHEH, KELVIN LOW, LU SIM, FREDDY TAM, DAVID LIU, and SAM CHEUNG! Plus: Minifigure customizing from JARED K. BURKS, step-by-step “You Can Build It” instructions by CHRISTOPHER DECK, BrickNerd’s DIY Fan Art, & more!

(84 FULL-COLOR pages) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Now shipping!

(100-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $9.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95 • Ships Sept. 2017

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships Nov. 2017

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships Jan. 2018

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships Oct. 2017

COMIC BOOK CREATOR #15 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #16 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #17

KIRBY COLLECTOR #72

KIRBY COLLECTOR #73

Celebrating 30 years of artist’s artist MARK SCHULTZ, creator of the CADILLACS AND DINOSAURS franchise, with a featurelength, career-spanning interview conducted in Mark’s Pennsylvanian home, examining the early years of struggle, success with Kitchen Sink Press, and hitting it big with a Saturday morning cartoon series. Includes rarely-seen art and fascinating photos from Mark’s amazing and award-winning career.

A look at 75 years of Archie Comics’ characters and titles, from Archie and his pals ‘n gals to the mighty MLJ heroes of yesteryear and today’s “Dark Circle”! Also: Careerspanning interviews with The Fox’s DEAN HASPIEL and Kevin Keller’s cartoonist DAN PARENT, who both jam on our exclusive cover depicting a face-off between humor and heroes. Plus our usual features, including the hilarious FRED HEMBECK!

The legacy and influence of WALLACE WOOD, with a comprehensive essay about Woody’s career, extended interview with Wood assistant RALPH REESE (artist for Marvel’s horror comics, National Lampoon, and underground), a long chat with cover artist HILARY BARTA (Marvel inker, Plastic Man and America’s Best artist with ALAN MOORE), plus our usual columns, features, and the humor of HEMBECK!

FIGHT CLUB! Jack’s most powerful fights and in-your-face action: Real-life WAR EXPERIENCES, Marvel’s KID COWBOYS, the Madbomb saga and all those negative 1970s Marvel fan letters, interview with SCOTT McCLOUD on his Kirby-inspired punchfest DESTROY!!, rare Kirby interview, 2017 WonderCon Kirby Panel, MARK EVANIER, unpublished pencil art galleries, and more! Cover inked by DEAN HASPIEL!

ONE-SHOTS! We cover Kirby’s best (and worst) short spurts on his wildest concepts: ANIMATION IDEAS, DINGBATS, JUSTICE INC., MANHUNTER, ATLAS, PRISONER, and more! Plus MARK EVANIER and our other regular panelists, rare Kirby interview, panels from the 2017 Kirby Centennial celebration, pencil art galleries, and some one-shot surprises! BIG BARDA #1 cover finishes by MIKE ROYER!

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Now shipping!

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Fall 2017

(100-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $9.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95 • Winter 2018

(100-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95 • Summer 2017

(100-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95 • Ships Fall 2017

THE PARTY STARTS WITH

KIRBY100

TWOMORROWS and the JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR magazine celebrate JACK KIRBY’S 100th BIRTHDAY in style with the release of KIRBY100, a full-color visual holiday for the King of comics! It features an all-star line-up of 100 COMICS PROS who critique key images from Kirby’s 50-year career, admiring his page layouts, dramatics, and storytelling skills, and lovingly reminiscing about their favorite characters and stories. Featured are BRUCE TIMM, ALEX ROSS, WALTER SIMONSON, JOHN BYRNE, JOE SINNOTT, STEVE RUDE, ADAM HUGHES, WENDY PINI, JOHN ROMITA SR., DAVE GIBBONS, P. CRAIG RUSSELL, and dozens more of the top names in comics. Their essays serve to honor Jack’s place in comics history, and prove (as if there’s any doubt) that KIRBY IS KING! This double-length book is edited by JOHN MORROW and JON B. COOKE, with a Kirby cover inked by MIKE ROYER. (The Limited Hardcover Edition includes 16 bonus color pages of Kirby’s 1960s Deities concept drawings)

(224-page FULL-COLOR TRADE PAPERBACK) $34.95 ISBN: 9781605490786 • (Digital Edition) $12.95 Diamond Order Code: MAY171932 PRINTED IN CHINA

(240-page LIMITED EDITION HARDCOVER with 16 bonus pages) $45.95 ISBN: 9781605490793 • Diamond Order Code: MAY171933

SHIPS AUGUST 28! Download an interactive PDF version of TwoMorrows’ NEW 2017-2018 CATALOG at www.twomorrows.com! Then just click on any item, and you’re taken to its ordering page online! SUBSCRIPTIONS ECONOMY US Alter Ego (Six 100-page issues) $65 Back Issue (Eight 80-page issues) $73 BrickJournal (Six 80-page issues) $55 Comic Book Creator (Four 80-page issues) $40 Jack Kirby Collector (Four 100-page issues) $45

EXPEDITED US $83 $88 $66 $50 $58

PREMIUM US $92 $97 $73 $54 $61

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