Alter Ego #35 by TwoMorrows Publishing

THAT WILD & WONDROUS

1950s MARVEL SUPER-HERO REVIVAL!

1994--2004

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No. 35 April 2004

WITH WITH

ROMITA • LEE • AYERS • HEATH BURGOS • EVERETT • POWELL LAWRENCE—& THOMAS?

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“Gods!” Takes an in-depth look at WALTER SIMONSON’s Thor, the Thunder God in the Bronze Age, “Pro2Pro” interview with TOM DeFALCO and RON FRENZ, Hercules: Prince of Power, Moondragon, Three Ways to End the New Gods Saga, exclusive interview with fantasy writer MICHAEL MOORCOCK, art and commentary by GERRY CONWAY, JACK KIRBY, BOB LAYTON, and more, with a swingin’ Thor cover by SIMONSON!

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See comic art and script BEFORE and AFTER the Comics Code changes, with art by SIMON & KIRBY, DITKO, BUSCEMA, SINNOTT, GOULD, COLE, STERANKO, KRIGSTEIN, O’NEIL, GLANZMAN, ORLANDO, WILLIAMSON, HEATH, and others! Plus: FCA, Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, BILL SCHELLY, JIM AMASH interviews Timely/Atlas artist CAL MASSEY, and a new cover by JOSH MEDORS!

DICK GIORDANO through the 1960s—from freelance years and Charlton “Action-Heroes” to his first stint at DC! Art by DITKO, APARO, BOYETTE, MORISI, McLAUGHLIN, GIL KANE, and others, Dick’s final convention panel with STEVE SKEATES and ROY THOMAS, JIM AMASH interviews Charlton artist TONY TALLARICO, FCA with MARC SWAYZE and ROY ALD, MR. MONSTER’S COMIC CRYPT, BILL SCHELLY, GIORDANO cover, and more!

Big BATMAN issue, with an unused Golden Age cover by DICK SPRANG! SHEL DORF interviews SPRANG and JIM MOONEY, with rare and unseen Batman art by BOB KANE, JERRY ROBINSON, WIN MORTIMER, SHELLY MOLDOFF, CHARLES PARIS, and others! Part II of the TONY TALLARICO interview by JIM AMASH! Plus FCA, MR. MONSTER’S COMIC CRYPT, BILL SCHELLY, and more!

1970s Bullpenner WARREN REECE talks about Marvel Comics and working with EVERETT, BURGOS, ROMITA, STAN LEE, MARIE SEVERIN, ADAMS, FRIEDRICH, ROY THOMAS, and others, with rare art! DEWEY CASSELL spotlights Golden Age artist MIKE PEPPE, with art by TOTH, ANDRU, TUSKA, CELARDO, & LUBBERS, plus FCA, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY, cover by EVERETT & BURGOS, and more!

Interview with inker SCOTT WILLIAMS from his days at Marvel and Image to his work with JIM LEE, and PATRICK OLIFFE demos how he produces Spider-Girl, Mighty Samson, and digital comics. Also, MIKE MANLEY and BRET BLEVINS’ “Comic Art Bootcamp”, a “Rough Critique” of a newcomer’s work by BOB McLEOD, art supply reviews by “Crusty Critic” JAMAR NICHOLAS, and more!

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LEGO SPACE WAR issue! A STARFIGHTER BUILDING LESSON by Peter Reid, WHY SPACE MARINES ARE SO POPULAR by Mark Stafford, a trip behind the scenes of LEGO’S NEW ALIEN CONQUEST SETS that hit store shelves earlier this year, plus JARED K. BURKS’ column on MINIFIGURE CUSTOMIZATION, building tips, event reports, our step-by-step “YOU CAN BUILD IT” INSTRUCTIONS, and more!

Go to Japan with articles on two JAPANESE LEGO FAN EVENTS, plus take a look at JAPAN’S SACRED LEGO LAND, Nasu Highland Park—the site of the BrickFan events and a pilgrimage site for many Japanese LEGO fans. Also, a feature on JAPAN’S TV CHAMPIONSHIP OF LEGO, a look at the CLICKBRICK LEGO SHOPS in Japan, plus how to get into TECHNIC BUILDING, LEGO EDUCATION, and more!

LEGO EVENTS ISSUE covering our own BRICKMAGIC FESTIVAL, BRICKWORLD, BRICKFAIR, BRICKCON, plus other events outside the US. There’s full event details, plus interviews with the winners of the BRICKMAGIC CHALLENGE competition, complete with instructions to build award winning models. Also JARED K. BURKS’ regular column on minifigure customizing, building tips, and more!

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Vol. 3, No. 35 / April 2004

™

Editor

Roy Thomas

Associate Editors Bill Schelly Jim Amash

Design & Layout

Christopher Day

Consulting Editor John Morrow

FCA Editor

P.C. Hamerlinck

Comic Crypt Editor Michael T. Gilbert

Editors Emeritus

Jerry Bails (founder) Ronn Foss, Biljo White, Mike Friedrich

Production Assistant

Eric Nolen-Weathington

Cover Artists John Romita Al Jaffee

Cover Colorists Tom Ziuko Al Jaffee

And Special Thanks to: Al Jaffee Mark Austin Richard Lee Dick Ayers Stephen Barrington Stan Lee Mark Lewis Michael Mile High Comics Baulderstone Scotty Moore Allen & Roz Matt Moring Bellman Lawrence Bowkett Chris Pedrin Warren Reece Gary Carlson Ethan Roberts Rich Donnelly William J.B. Dorn III John Romita Chris Ecker Dave Siegel Ron Frantz Marc Swayze Dann Thomas Bill Fugate Jim Vadeboncoeur, Jr. Carl Gafford Dr. Michael J. Dave Gantz Janet Gilbert Vassallo Michael Gray Hames Ware Jennifer Hamerlinck Bob Wiener John Wright Peter Hansen Russ Heath

1994--2004

NEW ADDRESS FOR TWOMORROWS: 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614 PHONE 919/449-0344 • FAX 919/449-0327

The Short and Happy Atlas Age of Super-Heroes (1953-55) Section

Contents

Writer/Editorial: The Pillars of Atlas . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 Young Men’s Adventures. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Roy Thomas’ very personal take on the Timely/Marvel Hero Revival. “I’d Forgotten I’d Ever Done It!”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 Russ Heath doesn’t even remember his one and only “Human Torch” story. “Captain America Was a Dirty Name!” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 19 John Romita talks to Jim Amash about the first super-hero he ever drew. “Fighting Fire with Fire!”. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27 Dick Ayers tells still more about his halcyon days on The Human Torch. “IStanWish Wal-Mart Sold Memory!” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 33 Lee recalls—well, just a little bit—the 1950s super-hero revival. Comic Crypt: Adventures into the Unknown Covers!. . . . . . . 39 Michael T. Gilbert on unpublished 1950s covers of the American Comics Group. Al Jaffee & Friends Section. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Flip Us! About Our Cover: Some months ago, collector Bob Wiener sent us truly astonishing black-&white photocopies of John Romita’s first 6-page “Captain America” story—done in 1953 for Young Men #24. Even more amazing was that, instead of the splash we’d known for half a century, these copies turned out to sport John’s unused and never-published splash panel, which had been replaced by one by artist Mort Lawrence. There were a couple of other variant panels, as well. Being the greedy cuss he is, Roy T. not only determined to print the splash as a cover—but even managed to persuade his kind-hearted 1960s-70s colleague to draw new images of Human Torch and Sub-Mariner, so this issue’s cover could feature all three of Timely/Atlas’ 1950s heroes, utilizing art done in both 1953 and 2003—exactly fifty years apart! (For the original splash in black-&-white, see p. 20.) Thanks, Bob, for something Roy’s been hoping to see ever since he learned John had drawn his own, unseen splash for YM #24! [1953 art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.; 2003 art ©2004 John Romita; Captain America, Red Skull, Human Torch, & Sub-Mariner TM & ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] Above: We’ve showcased this Romita panel from Young Men #26 before, but since it’s the only one in all 23 of the 1953-55 Atlas super-hero mags that showed the three heroes together in the same scene, it seemed the only choice to start off this issue. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] Alter EgoTM is published monthly by TwoMorrows, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Roy Thomas, Editor. John Morrow, Publisher. Alter Ego Editorial Offices: 32 Bluebird Trail, St. Matthews, SC 29135, USA. Fax: (803) 826-6501; e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Single issues: $8 ($10 Canada, $11.00 elsewhere). Twelve-issue subscriptions: $60 US, $120 Canada, $132 elsewhere. All characters are © their respective companies. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter © Roy Thomas. Alter Ego is a TM of Roy & Dann Thomas. FCA is a TM of P.C. Hamerlinck. Printed in Canada. FIRST PRINTING.

Title writer/editorial

The Pillars of Atlas

In medieval times, men feared to venture beyond the so-called Pillars of Hercules—the European and African promontories towering over the Strait of Gibraltar.

Our mascot (and Alter’s buddy) Captain Ego, in a drawing by his creator unpublished since Alter Ego [Vol. 1] #7, 1964. [Art ©2004 Estate of Biljo White; Alter & Capt. Ego TM & ©2004 Roy Thomas & Bill Schelly.]

In this issue, I embarked upon a less venturesome voyage, which still caused me plenty of problems. I hadn’t realized, when first planning to run Jim Amash’s splendid Al Jaffee interview in the same issue with long-projected coverage of the Timely/Atlas 1950s super-hero revival, that those two features would fill the mag to the brim and I’d have to jettison virtually everything else I’d ordinarily include—not unlike the way Groucho, Chico, and Harpo cannibalized all the other cars of the locomotive to keep the engine fires stoked up in The Marx Brothers Go West! For instance, since there’d been no letters section in #34, I’d planned to double up this time—now I’ll have to triple up in #36! Happily, Alex Toth, too, will return next month, as will other delayed items.

In the meantime, we beg your indulgence… and hope you’ll enjoy this issue’s extensive Timely/Atlas/Marvel coverage (plus the Comic Fandom Archives, Comic Crypt, and FCA departments) nearly as much as we enjoyed putting it all together for you! We’d gush a bit more… but we’re outta room! Bestest,

COMING IN MAY NOW MONTHLY!

JULIUS SCHWARTZ (1915-2004) As this issue was being readied, we were saddened to learn of the passing of this great DC editor, without whom the Silver Age of Comics (not to mention Alter Ego) might never have existed. At the very least, both would have taken far different, and probably lesser, forms if not for Julie. Surely most of A/E’s readers know of his many accomplishments—in particular the revitalization of the super-hero concept between 1956 and the early 1960s—and already the Comics Buyer’s Guide has devoted two fine issues (#1580–1) to the man and his achievements. A/E, for its part, will publish a special edition devoted to Julius Schwartz—#38, just three months hence. It will include previously unpublished interviews with Julie, guest tributes, and examinations of his contributions both to the comic book and to comics fandom… between a pair of gorgeous new covers by two master artists who worked with him in the Golden and Silver Ages: Carmine Infantino and Irwin Hasen. The better part of a hundred pages devoted to Julius Schwartz. But it won’t be nearly enough… merely a down payment on what we all owe to this titan who left us, even at 88, far too soon.

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TWIN SPOTLIGHTS ON

JOE SIMON— AND THE

GOLDEN AGE OF CANADIAN COMICS! • New full-color covers by JOE SIMON (Fighting American)—and MICHAEL T. GILBERT & RONN SUTTON (those fabulous 1940s Canadian heroes)! • JOE SIMON on the SIMON & KIRBY team—CARL BURGOS—LLOYD JACQUET— Captain America—Fighting American—plus a mountain of rarely-seen art! • “The Great Canadian Super-Heroes of World War II!” JOHN BELL tells all about Commander Steel, Nelvana of the Northern Lights, The Penguin (no, not that one!), Thunderfist, and many others—profusely illustrated! • MICHAEL T. GILBERT reveals the secret Canadian origins of MR. MONSTER! • Tributes to BOB DESCHAMPS, DON LAWRENCE, & GEORGE WOODBRIDGE! • Plus—FCA with MARC SWAYZE, C.C. BECK, Shazam!/Isis—comics legend ALEX TOTH—BILL SCHELLY & JOHN WRIGHT (part 2)—JIM AMASH interviews Golden Age artist ELMER WEXLER— & MORE!! Edited by ROY THOMAS • 108 PAGES!

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The Short and Happy Atlas Age of Super-Heroes part one

Young Men’s Adventures

A Personal and Idiosyncratic Guide to the Timely/Atlas Hero Revival

by Roy Thomas [NOTE: All issue information is placed in boxes on the pages that follow. In the individual storylistings, the name of the feature is listed first, then the story title (if any), followed by the page count, and name of the artist—e.g., “Captain America: “Back from the Dead!” – 6 pp. – John Romita.” Additional information is given elsewhere.]

watched beloved super-heroes disappear one by one.

It had been three years since the demise of All-Star; only Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and a few backups still endured at my favorite company, National/DC. Quality had just John Romita’s three-panel sequence featuring Sub-Mariner, Human Torch, and Captain America, Plastic Man and from Young Men #26, reproduced from photocopies of the original art—and clearly using versions Blackhawk left; I of Namor and Torch in YM #24 as reference. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] didn’t yet know that the last issue of Doll Man had gone on sale two months earlier. Nor did I suspect that the final comics starring Captain Marvel and his Fawcett family were already on the presses. Osterloh’s Book Store was a Mecca for me as a youngster in the late Over at the company I always thought of as “Marvel Comics,” 1940s and early 1950s. When my parents went shopping on Saturday because those words sometimes appeared on its covers in the late ’40s, I nights in Cape Girardeau, Missouri, ten miles from our home in the had read the exploits of the Torch, Cap, and Namor in their solo mags county seat of Jackson, I’d seize the chance to hit the Woolworth and and in Marvel Mystery Comics from 1945 or ’46 till 1949, when all had Newberry 5¢-and-10¢ stores in search of comic books. been abruptly discontinued. And then there was Osterloh’s. But now, suddenly—the three Marvel heroes were back! Mostly, I bought real books in that wondrous emporium on the next “The HUMAN TORCH Returns,” screamed the topline above that block down from the five-and-dimes: books about animals (both fact comic’s odd title—Young Men. I had no idea which young men had and fiction), Oz, Grossett and Dunlap’s Tarzan, and (God help me) appeared in its preceding 23 issues, nor did I care. I paid my thin dime Bomba the Jungle Boy… as well as Pogo paperbacks and the proud but and made off with my booty into the night, before it could fade before lonely single volume of Jack Kent’s King Aroo. But through at least the my eyes like a mirage. mid-’50s, Osterloh’s carried comics, too. A smaller selection than Woolworth and Newberry, yet I can vividly recall buying several treasures there, such as 1950’s AllStar Comics #55 with its stark cover of Hawkman and Green Lantern attacking a Young Men #24 space ship against the blackness of space… (Dec. 1953)

A Frankly Self-indulgent Preface

Back from the Dead!

And Young Men #24. In the autumn 1953 moment when, at age twelve, I beheld on Osterloh’s racks (which started at floor level) that Atlasglobed cover with its powerful image of The Human Torch hurling fireballs that burn a hole in a building while onlookers gape—with small images of Captain America, Bucky, and “Submariner” [sic] at the bottom, each mentioned twice, for good measure—hope flared up in me. The kind of hope that had been gradually ebbing since the late 1940s, as I had slowly

Cover: Carl Burgos Human Torch: “The Return of… The Human Torch” – 9 pp. – Russ Heath (Torch figure on splash by Carl Burgos) Captain America: “Back from the Dead!” – 6 pp. – John Romita (splash page by Mort Lawrence) Sub-Mariner – 8 pp. – Bill Everett (signed)

REPRINTING: The cover and all three stories were reprinted in Marvel Super-Heroes #20 (May 1969)—and in the 1997 trade paperback The Golden Age of Marvel [Vol. 1]. In the latter, the “Torch” story reproduced overly dark, because of last-minute production problems.

A Guide to the Timely/Atlas Hero Revival

Even as a kid, I’d realized Marvel’s stories weren’t generally as good as those of DC, Fawcett, and Quality. It was the three heroes I liked. Most of their stories looked and read pretty much alike to me. But Young Men #24, I realized at once, was different… better… both in terms of art and story! The former, in particular, struck me as uniformly good, if not downright superb… a judgment I’ve seen no reason to alter in the ensuing half-century. The entire cover and the splash-panel Torch figure (by Carl Burgos, I’d soon learn) were splendid re-creations of the flaming super-hero I’d known. But I noted right away that he looked quite different in the remaining eight-plus pages of his story. Their artist (Russ Heath, I’d learn, doing his one and only “Torch” tale ever) made him actually look like a man on fire, burning somehow without burning up—and I liked that approach, too. At age twelve I didn’t ponder the reasons for the dichotomy of styles within the same issue, story, and even panel. That would come later. The “Torch” splash continued from the cover scene, as he flew through the molten hole he’d burned to attack several armed thugs. His origin was retold in a two-panel sequence that had him literally “born in a test tube,” a simplified version the android origin that I’d read retold in the final issue of Marvel Mystery Comics (#92, June 1949). According to YM #24, the Torch had incinerated Adolf Hitler in 1945 (a nice touch I’d learn was a new addition—at the time, I didn’t even know Hitler’s corpse had been burned), and he had picked up a fiery young sidekick in 1949 (though I knew for a fact that Toro had been around by the mid’40s.) I was impressed at how the story accounted believably for the pair’s four-year absence. They’d been captured by a criminal syndicate using the flame-dousing Solution X-R obtained from “a country behind the

Iron Curtain”—and we all knew which one that was, didn’t we, boys and girls? The Torch had been buried beneath the Nevada desert until freed by an atomic test—while Toro had been turned over to the Communists. The Torch’s 1940s pal Police Chief Wilson informed him of “mysterious streaks of fire our G.I.’s in Korea have been seeing,” months after the truce ended the war there, so the Torch streaked to Asia and freed the brainwashed Toro from the Reds’ insidious spell. The two of them then rescued Wilson’s daughter Mary from a Commie spy, and they were back in business! The “Captain America” story was a shorter and lesser effort, though well-drawn. Years later I’d learn that, except for the splash panel (drawn by Mort Lawrence—see p. 20), the art was by John Romita, whose name I already knew from other Marvel/Atlas comics. I’d even encountered The Red Skull once, in 1949, when Cap fought him in hell itself. In 1953 I learned that, “in the early days of the war” (clearly World War II, since Nazis are mentioned), a “certain weakling” had been changed by a serum into a perfect physical specimen—Captain America. The writer of this script, too, had done his homework; indeed, some of the dialogue in the origin flashback is lifted directly from Captain America #1, not that I knew that then. Steve Rogers, the suburban New York high school teacher who relates the above origin to his class at the Lee School (ahem!), was once Captain America; his ward (and student) Bucky had been Cap’s young ally. Steve insists: “Captain America’s work is done! There’s no need for his return!” He’s wrong, of course. That very day, The Red Skull takes hostages at the U.N. and demands the Secretary-General be turned over to him. Precisely how that would’ve helped him launch “a crime wave like the world’s never seen before—working with the Reds in murder… sabotage” is not made clear, let alone how the ultimate Nazi had cosied up to the Commies. Needless to say, Cap and Bucky return, the Skull and his cohorts are crushed, and Cap decides he’s “back to stay.” I believed him.

The issue’s third tale, “Sub-Mariner,” was equally a revelation. I couldn’t for the life of me read the artist’s weird signature (I finally decided it was “Bill Enereh”—and so he remained, in my mind, for eight years, until a fellow English teacher informed me that last name was actually “Everett,” and that he’d created the hero); but the art and story elated me. When freighters are sunk at sea and Red treachery suspected, a good-looking blonde named Betty Dean contacts her old buddy Prince Namor, the SubMariner. Again things are brought up to date, recounting his hybrid birth in a long caption, telling how he hated humans till she convinced him to help the U.S. during WWII and that “a few years ago [he] went back to his home at the South Pole to rebuild his lost

Young Men’s Adventures

empire.” A masterful page-plus of panels that told me more about the life and times of Namor than I’d learned in several years of reading SubMariner in the late ’40s! [See p. 35.] The rest of the story is a bit of a letdown, with the villains turning out to be not Reds but Venusian robots out to conquer Earth. But I was impressed by Namor’s wearing a suit and tie in several panels; once he and Betty even wear striped nautical shirts (identical except for her plunging neckline). I’d never before seen a super-hero appear in public in “civvies.” The one sour note was that Namor’s ankles no longer sported tiny wings as in the 1940s. He could no longer fly in the mid-’40s comics I’d read, but I’d always figured the wings helped him swim faster. Besides, they were as much a part of his unique “look” as that triangular head and those marvelous pointy ears and arching eyebrows—and those new, blue-scaled trunks, so much more visual than the lackluster black-withyellow-stripes jobs he’d worn in the ’40s! Young Men #24 was the highlight of the year 1953 to this young comics fan, and I was only disappointed that I’d have to wait two whole months to read more about The Human Torch, Captain America, and Sub-Mariner.

Explosion in Four Colors Eight weeks later, you’d better believe I was on hand when Young Men #25 came on sale. For reasons still unknown, someone had decided The Human Torch was the most saleable of the three revived heroes, even though, as I’d learn years later, Captain America had been easily Timely’s best-selling mag through much of the 1940s.

This time, the “Torch” story was drawn (and perhaps also written?) wholly by the cover artist. This was the classic Torch, with vertical lines inside his flaming form making him look hotter than Toro’s emptier outline—and the yellow auras around their blazing bodies when they flew were a definite improvement on late-1940s depictions. In the story, old men were given youth in exchange for working for a criminal gang... not knowing that, after a month, they’d crumble into dust. I must’ve liked that plot; forty years later I, er, adapted it for an issue of Marvel’s The Secret Defenders.

Young Men #25 (Feb. 1954) Cover: Carl Burgos Human Torch: “The Return of… The Human Torch” – 8 pp. – Carl Burgos Captain America: “Top Secret!” – 7 pp. – John Romita (signed) Sub-Mariner: 8 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) REPRINTING: The “Torch” story was reprinted in Marvel Super-Heroes #14 (May 1968), “Captain America” in MSH #13 (March 1968), and “SubMariner” in Giant-Size Defenders #2 (Oct. 1974). The entire issue, including cover, was reprinted in a simulated edition in 1994.

“Captain America” was signed this time—by John Romita. Even then I recognized the influence of Milt Caniff, whose Terry and the Pirates I’d admired in Harvey’s comic book reprints. I didn’t fully realize that John was striving (with considerable success) to amalgamate the styles of Caniff and Jack Kirby, who I’d learn was one of Cap’s creators; but I liked the way Cap seemed to leap out of some panels, his boots overlapping the borders. And I loved that final, oft-reprinted panel in which Cap, Bucky, and a scientist stand approvingly watching a nuclear explosion on the desert: “A glorious sight,” says Cap, “when it’s on our side in the struggle for world peace!” It didn’t occur to me—or to John or the writer, apparently—that at that distance all three would have been killed instantly. The “Sub-Mariner” story by “Bill Enereh” is a

A Guide to the Timely/Atlas Hero Revival

creepy one about alien were-sharks, with Jawsforeshadowing panels in which men shriek while unseen sharks beneath the surface chomp off their legs. The story is wordy—not that that bothered me, then or now—and I was only unhappy that someone had apparently vetoed Namor’s scaly trunks; he was back in a dull standard blue swimsuit, without those glitzy scales. Still, all in all, Young Men #25 was a triumph. And the cover of Young Men #26, which carries a date only one month after #24 (whether or not it came out quite that soon), proudly proclaimed that from now on that mag would be “ON SALE MONTHLY!” No Cap or Namor on the cover this time, which just meant more room for splendid Torch art.

Sub-Mariner wears his 1940s black trunks this time—somebody couldn’t make up his mind!—to battle armored “spacemen” who turn out to be merely “a group of clever agents of one of our Communistdominated neighbor countries.” Namor explains how he saw through their scheme in an 86-word balloon that nearly crowds him and the fetchingly half-clad Betty Dean out of the final panel.

Both stories and art go from strength to strength. The Torch fights The Vulture, who was destined to become his 1950s nemesis. This story, too, ends with a mushroom cloud; the Atlas gang were obviously superheroes for an Atomic Age. Even more exciting was the fact that the Torch and Namor make cameo appearances in the “Captain America” story. Alas, a false omen—for none of the heroes ever appear in each other’s adventures again for the length of the revival.

Young Men #26

The next monthly Young Men (#27) boasts another well-composed Burgos cover, fronting a gorgeously-drawn though mundane “Torch” bout with The Hypnotist. The most exciting moment came in an announcement beneath the story’s final panels: “THE HUMAN TORCH and BUCKY [sic] will provide you with more thrilling adventures in their own book… THE HUMAN TORCH! At your nearest newsstand right now!” So it had finally happened! The Torch was getting his own comic again! Clearly, this event had so excited the crew of Young Men that they’d accidentally confused Toro and Bucky in the caption! I was happy to see Red Skull battle Captain America again, though I wondered why, in all issues of Young Men after #24, the Torch and

(March 1954) Cover: Carl Burgos Human Torch: 8 pp. – Carl Burgos Captain America: “Captain America Turns Traitor!” – 7 pp. – John Romita (signed) Sub-Mariner: 8 pp. – Bill Everett (signed)

REPRINTING: “Human Torch” and “Sub-Mariner” were reprinted in Marvel Super-Heroes #19 (March 1969); “Captain America” in MSH # 15 (July 1968) and in The Golden Age of Marvel [Vol. 1], 1997.

Young Men #27 (April 1954) Cover: Carl Burgos Human Torch: 8 pp. – Carl Burgos Captain America: “The Return of The Red Skull” – 7 pp. – John Romita Sub-Mariner: 8 pp. – Bill Everett (signed)

Young Men’s Adventures

Man of Flame... Scourge of the Sea... and Commie Smasher! If one judges by cover dates, the first revival issues of Human Torch and Sub-Mariner (both April 1954, continuing their numbering from the final 1949 editions) went on sale at roughly the same time. My own uncertain recollection is that they appeared in different weeks, though I’ve no idea which came out first.

The Human Torch #36 (April 1954) Cover: Carl Burgos (signed) Human Torch: 6 pp. – Dick Ayers (signed; w/Burgos Torch/Toro figures) Human Torch: 6 pp. – Dick Ayers (signed; w/Burgos Torch/Toro figures) Sub-Mariner: 5 pp. – Bob Powell (signed) Human Torch: 6 pp. – Dick Ayers (signed, w/Burgos Torch/Toro figures)

(April 1954) Cover: Bill Everett (signed) Sub-Mariner: “The Origin of The Sub-Mariner” – 8 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) Sub-Mariner: 4 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) Human Torch: 5 pp. – Dick Ayers (signed) (Burgos splash figures?)

Namor had 8-page stories, and Cap only seven. (As it turned out, Cap would also appear in fewer stories in the 1950s than the Torch, let alone Sub-Mariner.) Starting this issue, Romita was no longer drawing the circular stripes on the hero’s shield, but relying on their being held by red-and-white coloring alone, with a sloppy end result... but who really cared? An endof-story announcement declared that Cap was now appearing in his own mag again, too.

Sub-Mariner: 6 pp. – Bill Everett (signed)

Captain America #76 (May 1954) Cover: Unknown (see Romita interview, following)

Namor joins an aquatic show which outfits him in greenscaled trunks and shirt with fin-topped headgear—which he soon ditches for just the usual black trunks. He runs into his beautiful cousin Namora (who’d even had her own comic for three issues in 1948); she’s investigating criminal activity in the show. To match her dramatic red-scaled swimsuit, by story’s end Sub-Mariner is depicted back in those scaly green trunks, which except in color are identical to the cool blue ones in #24. I hoped he’d keep them. (Little did I realize that, from that day on, scaled trunks—of varying colors—would become Namor’s swimgear of choice, extending into the 1960s and beyond.) And, yes—there was now a Sub-Mariner comic again, as well!

Captain America: “The Betrayers!” – 6 pp. – John Romita Captain America: “Captain America Strikes!” – 6 pp. – John Romita Human Torch: 5 pp. – artist(s) uncertain Captain America: 6 pp – “Come to the Commies!” – John Romita [NOTE: The three “Cap” stories were probably inked by Jack Abel.] [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

A Guide to the Timely/Atlas Hero Revival

The cover of HT #36 is signed “Burgos”—the first time I knew even the last name of this “Torch” artist I liked. The interior “Torch” stories, however, were drawn by Dick Ayers, whose work I’d admired in Magazine Enterprises’ Ghost Rider. Oddly, while Ayers’ style was quite different from Burgos’, the Torches’ figures seemed identical to those in Young Men. Years later, we’d all learn this was because, in most panels in that issue, Burgos Torch and Toro figures had been pasted over those drawn by Ayers, doubtless to keep the look of the Torches consistent with Burgos’ in YM. The “Torch” stories in #36 are good solid if not inspired fare. The second (featuring a truly gigantic tyrannosaur) was obviously inspired by the 1953 Ray Harryhausen movie The Beast from 20,000 Fathoms [see A/E #3]… while the villain in the third, The Ape, is a grotesque slumlord with tremendous strength. Just as in the 1940s, however, Timely/Atlas/Marvel insists on giving readers more than one hero even in a mag named Human Torch, so there’s a 5-page “Sub-Mariner” episode, too. It is well-drawn and signed “Powell” [= Bob Powell], a name I knew by then from Magazine Enterprises’ Cave Girl and elsewhere—but his version of Namor and his world is sharply at variance with that of “Bill Enereh.” Powell’s merman has a far less pronounced triangular (and even, yes, less heroic) head; and his male undersea subjects look like green man-frogs [see p. 10]. Hardly

Powell’s fault, since the only other members of Namor’s sub-oceanic race seen in the revival thus far are female: his mother Princess Fen and Namora. Even so, this betrays a lack of editorial coordination, since SubMariner #33 must have been in production at the same time, and it features males, as well. #33’s Everett mermen (they wouldn’t be “Atlanteans” till 1962) are green and have walrusy white mustaches and white hair and big black fish-eyes, but at least they don’t look like humanoid frogs! I found myself hoping “Bill Enereh” would draw all future “Sub-Mariner” stories. (Incidentally, when 1950s stories were reprinted in the late 1960s, the now-Atlanteans were colored blue instead of green—including the females, such as Fen and Namora, who had originally, for some unfathomable reason, been Caucasian-toned.) In Sub-Mariner #33, artist (and probably writer) Bill Everett is at the top of his form, and not restricted like the Torch to only six-page stories. The expanded origin runs eight, a Red-sub romp four, and only the final tale—with a teenage girl and her giant pet crocodile clearly inspired by the 1948 movie Mighty Joe Young with Terry Moore and her huge gorilla—takes up six. The cover—the only one Everett drew in the revival, for reasons unknown—shows the hero tearing the air-hose off a Communist deep-sea diver. (Sure he’s a Commie! See that hammer-andsickle on his diving helmet?) What’s more, except on the cover, Namor has reverted to those great blue-scaled trunks… for good. The retelling of Sub-Mariner’s origin is the best version ever done, before or since, with pathos and humanity to spare. The reader feels sympathy for the star-crossed lovers Princess Fen and Commander McKenzie, and pity for Fen’s poor, decimated people. “Enereh” even dares update the 1939 scene in which Namor, in his first-ever encounter with humans, fatally cuts the air-hoses of divers, thinking the men are electrically-activated robots because of their bulky diving gear. An additional welcome touch is the wavy, thick-and-thin approach to panel borders, which add to the underwater feel of the stories for the length of the run. [See splash page in A/E #20.] The 5-page “Human Torch” story therein is a minor flying saucer tale, one of several space-alien efforts that writers kept coming up with for that hero; but this Ayers guy was clearly doing well by the Torches… even if the Torch’s figure on the splash (if not the others in the story) does look like a Burgos paste-up. The ten-issue 1954-55 run of Sub-Mariner would prove to be by far the longest of the revival, and reflect perhaps the best work of Bill Everett’s 35year career in the field—even if reading Namor’s exclamations like “Sufferin’ shad!” and “Great pickled penguins!” did grate on the visual ear from time to time. Captain America #76, behind a cover whose artist(s) remain tantalizingly unidentified (see the Romita interview), contains a trio of just-okay stories with better art— probably inked by Jack Abel—and a return match between the Torch and The Vulture [see splash on p. 29].

(Left:) This climactic page from the lead tale in Human Torch #36 has had Burgos figures pasted on in panels 1 & 3, but the Torch paste-up in panel 2 and the one over Toro’s Ayers-drawn legs in panel 7 have long since fallen off this original art supplied by Lawrence Bowkett of London. (Right:) Two altered panels as printed. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Young Men’s Adventures

Alien Vampires and Communist Killer Whales Surprisingly, and of course unknown to us readers, the three-heroes-in-one-issue format that had begun the revival was grinding to a halt offstage, with only three more anthology mags still to come out. Without fanfare, Young Men dropped back to bimonthly status; indeed, #28 would prove to be its final issue, after the mag’s brief promotion to a monthly. And yet, for reasons known only to himself, publisher Martin Goodman decreed that a second Timely/Atlas title, Men’s (Left:) Powerful Everett panels from the origin in Sub-Mariner #33. Adventures, which had (Right:) One of the three probably-Abel-inked “Cap” splashes featured western, war, and from CA #76. For the other two, see A/E #9’s Romita interview. horror stories in previous [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] incarnations, become a clone of learn that space aliens wander in at the end, to tell Earthmen to stay on Young Men, presenting stories of the Torch, Cap, and Namor. Since MA their own planet. “Cap” combines spies and smuggling. And, in a story #27 was sandwiched in between YM #27-28, the result was actually as if with a supernatural twist at the end, Namor meets another cousin, the latter had stayed a monthly—except that YM’s Burgos-Romitayoung Dorma, for the first time since the 1940s. Dorma, of course, Everett lineup was replaced by Ayers, Lawrence, and Powell, probably would become his romantic interest in the ’60s, only to be killed right for deadline reasons. after their wedding in a 1971 story scripted by the present writer. In the Men’s Adventures #27 introduces The Jet, a new costumed foe for ’50s, though, Namor considers her just “little cousin Dorma,” as he had the Torches, while Cap and Namor fight still more Commies—in Egypt in the very first “Sub-Mariner” story, in Marvel Comics #1 in 1939. and at sea, respectively. Sub-Mariner uses a huge whale to beat the Reds, (Trivia note: Powell’s caught up with the blue-scaled trunks look, too.) but since he has no telepathic powers like his later-spawned DC rival By this second Torch revival issue, stories and heroes are drawn fully Aquaman, his subjects must lead it to battle like a warhorse. by Dick Ayers—except that all three splashes seem to have been done by The “Torch” story in YM #28 features a third and final tussle with Carl Burgos, perhaps with others. The vampires in the lead tale are The Vulture, with the moon as the prize—and it won’t surprise many to revealed to be bat-like space aliens merely trapped temporarily on Earth,

Men’s Adventures #27

For some reason, editor Stan Lee and/or publisher Martin Goodman opted for different approaches on the two anthology titles—a full-page drawing on Young Men and a three-panel sequence Men’s Adventures #27-28— but the Torch still beat out Cap and Namor for the cover spots! [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Young Men #28 (June 1954)

(May 1954)

Cover: Carl Burgos

Human Torch: 8 pp. – Carl Burgos

Human Torch: 8 pp. – Dick Ayers (signed)

Captain America: “The Cargo of Death!” – 7 pp. – John Romita

Captain America: “The Girl Who Was Afraid!” – 7 pp. – Mort Lawrence (signed)

Sub-Mariner: “The Land below the Sun!” – 8 pp. – Bill Everett

Sub-Mariner: 8 pp. – Bob Powell

REPRINTING: The “Cap” story was reprinted in Marvel SuperHeroes #16 (Sept. 1968).

REPRINTING: The "Torch" story was reprinted in Marvel Super-Heroes #12 (Dec. 1967), the "Cap" story in MSH #14 (May 1968)

A Guide to the Timely/Atlas Hero Revival

Three pages repro’d from original art from Men’s Adventures #27, the first courtesy of Jerry G. Bails & Hames Ware’s 1970s Who’s Who in American Comic Books, the other two courtesy of Ethan Roberts. (Left:) The Torch brings down The Jet. (Center:) Mort Lawrence’s “Cap” splash. (Right:) The final page from Bob Powell’s second and last “Sub-Mariner,” complete with his froglike mermen. For other art from Young Men #28, see A/E V3#3 & #22. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Sub-Mariner #34 (June 1954) Cover: Carl Burgos (?) (possibly with others)

The Human Torch #37 (June 1954) Cover: Carl Burgos Human Torch: “Vampire Tale!” – 6 pp. – Dick Ayers Human Torch: “A Spy There Was…” – 6 pp. – Dick Ayers Sub-Mariner: 5 pp. – Bill Everett (signed on last page) Human Torch: “The Menace of the Unhuman!” – 6 pp. – Dick Ayers [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

NOTE: “Torch” splashes by Burgos (?), et al.

Sub-Mariner: 6 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) Sub-Mariner – 5 pp. – Bill Everett (signed on last page) Human Torch – 5 pp. – Dick Ayers (signed) Sub-Mariner – 6 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) NOTE: The issue features a fullpage ad for the “Invasion!” story coming up in Sub-Mariner #35, with a Namor figure not by Everett—and perhaps at least partly by Burgos.

REPRINTING: The lead story was reprinted in Marvel Super-Heroes #14 (May 1968), the last one in Fantasy Masterpieces #11 (Oct. 1967).

Young Men’s Adventures

Hard to say why Dick Ayers didn’t sign the lead tale in Men’s Adventures #28; it’s a good effort artwise, albeit yet another space-aliens “Torch” story (there were a half dozen or more such during the revival). The “Captain America” outing, set amid the uneasy truce in Korea, is the most warmongering of his 1950s exploits. And the “Sub-Mariner” adventure deals with killer whales which are led by a mechanical orca manned by (you guessed it) Reds. In one strong sequence, Namor is swallowed by a killer whale and hacks his way out of its insides, leaving the other “blood-crazed killers” to turn on “their ill-fated brother.”

All for One and One for All–––One Last Time

Namor’s head wasn’t the only triangle in Sub-Mariner #34, but he made a try at resolving it. Art by Bill Everett. Oh, and for interior art from Human Torch #37, see p. 28—and A/E #31. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

while the third deals with humanoid robots commanded by a man who turns out to be from another dimension. There’s no mention that the Torch himself is an android—but then, that fact had been glossed over even in Young Men #24. [See a couple of the splashes on p. 28.] The “Sub-Mariner” “Featurette” with Namor and Namora introduced this now-officially-teenage reader to the concept of “the rapture of the depths”—which, he was startled to learn later, is a real phenomenon. Sub-Mariner #34 is the most standard of all the 1950s issues of that title, having the 6-6-5-6 story page-count ratio of Human Torch and Captain America. Again there is a scene with a skeleton (as at the end of the Namor story in Young Men #28) to accommodate the horror trend, a type of story Everett enjoyed doing—the Betty DeanNamor-Namora triangle is given a “just-good-friends” twist which deepens the characterization at which the writer/artist was so adept— and more Commies are defeated. All in all, however, this is the least inspired of all the revival Sub-Mariner issues.

Captain America #77 (July 1954) Cover: John Romita (signed) Captain America: “You Die at Midnight!” – 6 pp. – John Romita

Men’s Adventures #28

Captain America: “The Man with No Face!” – 6 pp. – John Romita (signed)

(July 1954)

Human Torch: 5 pp. – Dick Ayers

Cover: Carl Burgos (?) (possibly with others)

Captain America: 6 pp. – John Romita (signed)

Human Torch: 8 pp. – Dick Ayers

The Human Torch #38

Captain America: “Kill Captain America!” – 7 pp. – John Romita (signed)

(Aug. 1954) Cover: Carl Burgos

Sub-Mariner: “Killer Whales” – 8 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) REPRINTING: The “Torch” story was reprinted in Marvel Super-Heroes #17 (Nov. 1968), the "Cap" story in MSH #12 (Dec. 1967).

Human Torch: “The World’s End” – 6 pp. – Dick Ayers (signed) Human Torch: “In Korea!” – 6 pp. – Dick Ayers (signed) Sub-Mariner: “Meets the Octopus-Men!” – 5 pp. – Bill Everett Human Torch: “Flame On!” – 6 pp. – Ayers (signed) See p. 38 for the splash pages of all three stories from this issue. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

REPRINTING: The first “Torch” story was reprinted in The Human Torch #4 (second series, March 1975), the second in HT #5 (May ’75), and the last in HT #6 (July ’75).

A Guide to the Timely/Atlas Hero Revival All the “Cap” artwork in C.A. #77 seems to be by John Romita, with the possible exception of the splash of the lead (and unsigned) story, which may be a combination of Romita, Burgos, and others. The second “Cap” tale pits him against “The Hatchet Man” in New York’s Chinatown; here and in the final, Korea-set “Cap” story, as in Romita’s other Korea ventures, there are no racial caricatures—unless one wishes to quibble with the fact that all Chinese faces are colored light yellow, a convention of the era. Ayers contributes a space-alien “featurette” with the Torch, whose splash was reprinted in A/E #31. Human Torch #38 was, unbeknownst to readers, that comic’s last revival issue. At last, though, each and every “Torch” panel is pure Ayers, and there are some real beauties. As per his interview this issue, Ayers considers the several stories he drew set in Korea as being some of his best art of the series in terms of action. [See p. 28.] Everett’s Octopus-Men in the “Sub-Mariner” filler are about as cartoony as the space aliens on The Simpsons (to which they bear an uncanny resemblance in at least one panel), but it’s still a fun story.

The Torch Is Past Sub-Mariner #35 and Captain America #78, ironically, contained what were probably the final two “Human Torch” stories printed in the revival—and of course the latter was also the final 1950s appearance of the star-spangled Cap. If the lead story in Sub-Mariner #35 didn’t quite live up to the hype in the previous issue, it nonetheless represented the first time in the

Sub-Mariner #35 (Aug. 1954) Cover: Sol Brodsky Splash of the “Hatchet Man” story from CA #77. For Ayers “Torch” art from CA #77, see A/E #31—and for interior art from Human Torch #38, see the Ayers interview in this issue. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Sub-Mariner: “Invasion!” – 8 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) Sub-Mariner: “The Dawn of The Sub-Mariner” – 3 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) Human Torch: “Human Torch—Fugitive at Large!” – 5 pp. – Dick Ayers (signed) Sub-Mariner: “Vengeance!” REPRINTING: The 3-pager was reprinted in Marvel Super-Heroes #14 (July 1968), the “Torch” filler in both MSH #13 (March ’68) and Human Torch (second series) #7 (Sept. ’75). “Vengeance” was reprinted both in MSH #16 (Sept. ’68) and in Les Daniels’ 1991 hardcover history Marvel: Five Fabulous Decades of the World’s Greatest Comics.

Captain America #78 (Sept. 1954) Cover: John Romita (signed) Captain America: “His Touch Is Death!” – 6 pp. – John Romita (signed) (Left:) ’Twas Sol Brodsky himself who told Ye Editor, in 1965, that he had drawn the cover of Sub-Mariner #35. (Right:) For some reason, Romita’s Electro on the cover of C.A. #78 looks somewhat different from the version he drew inside. In those pre-photocopier days, the artist probably didn’t have easy access to copies of the art and simply forgot the costume details! [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Captain America: “The Green Dragon!” – 6 pp. – John Romita (signed) Human Torch: “Playing with Fire!” – 5 pp. – Dick Ayers (signed) Captain America: “The Hour of Doom!” – 6 pp. – John Romita (signed)

Young Men’s Adventures

1950s that Namor’s people invaded the surface world and was a strong story in its own right, a worthy successor to tales in the early 1940s, and a precursor of Fantastic Four #4 and FF Annual #1 in the 1960s. Ironically, given the earlier and later stories, in this one the hero realizes that his undersea race isn’t strong enough to conquer the surface world. This tale also introduces “Prince Byrrah, the emperor’s stepson,” who’d return in the so-called Marvel Age—at least, this writer has never run across Byrrah in any Golden Age stories. Another innovation is the launching of a series of stories recounting Namor’s youth in the sub-Antarctic. Each of these 3- or 4-page tales will reveal how the young human/sub-sea hybrid (in #35 pictured at age eight or so) learns some lesson that will serve him well later in life; he ages slowly as the stories progress, issue by issue, through #42. In #35 he finds out for the first time that “I—and only I—of all the Sub-Mariners, can live indefinitely out of water!” (Yes, at this date, the term “SubMariners” is used for the entire undersea race; Namor apparently has a “trademark” on that name only among surface-men—or “the Americans,” as his people referred to them at the time.) The final story, scripted by the late Paul S. Newman (according to that writer’s own records), gives Everett the opportunity to have Namor battle a lab-created “amphibious man” called “Elmer” who’s a dead ringer for Universal’s Creature from the Black Lagoon. Whether the scripter intended the visual similarity or that was Everett’s own contribution is unknown.

Captain America #78 (see all three “Cap” splashes in A/E #9) showed artist Romita and the scripter (whom John feels was Stan Lee— see p. 22) hitting their stride with the character—just as the series ended. Even though he dies in the lead story, Electro, a Communist supervillain with a lethal electric touch, would’ve been worth a return appearance. The middle tale is a just-okay two-man invasion of Red China by Cap and Bucky (with a supernatural twist at the end)—and the image of Cap in the third trying hold back the minute hand of a huge clock made a powerful impression on at least one teenage Missouri reader. Ayers’ last-published “Torch” song of post-Korean War action is another action tour de force, if a bit cartoonier than the one in Human Torch #38. When HT #39 and CA #79 failed to go on sale two months later, even though he’d half-expected it because of the non-appearance of further issues of Young Men and Men’s Adventures, it was a sad day in the present writer’s young life. Maybe, he thought glumly, the super-heroes are never really coming back, after all.

And Then There Was One… By the time Sub-Mariner #36 came out, a month or two after Captain America #76, it was clear “The Atlas Age of Super-Heroes”

A Guide to the Timely/Atlas Hero Revival

was over and done with. Two odd things Only Namor remained— about Sub-Mariner and, as Bill Everett told #36: this writer more than First, none of the once in the 1960s, that three Everett-drawn was probably because of a “Sub-Mariner” pending deal for a TV stories is signed— series starring Subalthough two stories Mariner, involving a Frank in #35 are, and all Saverstein (sp?), the wellthree in #37 will be. known production Was Timely/Atlas company Goodsongoing through some Todman, humorist Herb sort of temporary Shriner, and radio/TV star policy shift? Arthur Godfrey. Discussions broke down at Second: even some point, however. Since though other 5-page it seems unlikely Sub“Human Torch” tales Mariner outsold the other had been written and Timely/Atlas super-hero drawn, they are not comics, publisher Martin Bill Everett, flanked by the covers of Sub-Mariner #36-37. He didn’t do either of used up as inventory in #36– the covers, but drew all the “Sub-Mariner” stories inside. Thanks to Dr. Michael J. Goodman probably kept that mag plus of Namor’s mag. Instead, Vassallo for a color copy of the cover of #37. [Art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] afloat as long as negotiations were sea-related yarns with no ongoing, and canceled the book continuing characters are used, once they had ended unsuccessfully. [For beginning with the Meskin effort about a more on this, see p. 37—and the full interview salvage job that turns murderous—and a in Alter Ego [Vol. 1] #11, or its slightly killer who winds up eaten by sharks. [See abridged reprinting in the 1997 Hamster Press Ayers interview, esp. p. 28–29.] volume Alter Ego: The Best of the Legendary Comics Fanzine.] The “Sub-Mariner” stories are an interesting mix of bird-beaked space aliens stealing Earth’s water, Namor learning about Sub-Mariner #36 courage on his tenth birthday, and the (Nov. 1954) attempt by Byrrah, “Prince of Seals,” to freeze humanity with a huge iceberg. Cover: Uncertain Sub-Mariner: “The Hidden World!” – 8 pp. – Bill Everett Sub-Mariner: “Courage!” – 3 pp. – Bill Everett “Shark Bait” – 5 pp. – “MR. ’54” (Mort Meskin—probably with inking by Jerry Robinson) Sub-Mariner: “War of the Poles!” – 7 pp. – Bill Everett REPRINTING: “The Hidden World!” was reprinted in Marvel Feature #2 (March 1972), and "Courage!" in Marvel Super-Heroes #18 (Jan. 1969).

Sub-Mariner #37 is noteworthy in part because it sports the first super-hero cover ever by master artist Joe Maneely, whose illustrious career was covered in detail in A/E #28. The tales inside involve an odd alliance between Commies and space aliens to conquer the Earth, 12-year-old Namor finding out just how strong he is compared to other undersea denizens, and a robot Namor created by Byrrah—who, whatever else he is, is clearly no dummy. Despite its title, the filler story actually deals with what looks like a sperm whale rather than killer whales/orcas; the word “killer” has more to do with the beast’s disposition. Lawrence’s art is lush and illustrative.

Sub-Mariner #37 (Dec. 1954) Cover: Joe Maneely (signed) Sub-Mariner: 8 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) Sub-Mariner: “Strength!” – 4 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) “Killer Whale!”: 4 pp. – Mort Lawrence (signed) Sub-Mariner: “Double Trouble!” – 7 pp. – Bill Everett (signed)

If I Had the Wings of An Angel… With issue #38, Namor finally reaches his full potential in terms of comics—but did that change make him more or less viable for mid-1950s television? Surely the impetus for a Sub-Mariner TV series was the tremendous success on that new medium of The Adventures of Superman, starring George Reeves, which had debuted in early 1953—thereby inspiring the return of Marvel’s “Big Three” heroes in the first place, as well as Blue Beetle over at Charlton and other, new characters. But did the TV

Young Men’s Adventures

people want Namor as he was in the 1953-54 issues of Sub-Mariner—or as he had been in the early 1940s, when in addition to being a superstrong swimmer, he could also fly, powered somehow by small wings on his ankles? Namor had lost the power to fly somewhere during the World War II years, without that loss ever being mentioned; they simply “went away.” Readers who came along postwar—like me, for instance—had no idea he’d ever flown. With Sub-Mariner #38, however, which would’ve been written and drawn in mid-1954, Namor abruptly gets back both those tiny wings and the ability to fly—as well as his 1940s strength. Was this done simply to see if returning him to his original 1939 self would make him a more viable comic-book super-hero? Or did the TV moguls want a stronger Subby to be able to fly as well as swim, so that he’d be more in Superman’s class? Did Arthur Godfrey and company get cold (and wet) feet about launching a TV show with a hero who could “only” swim fast and breathe underwater—admittedly with considerable if vaguely-defined physical strength—and want to hedge their bets? Unless we find some long-lost Timely or other records, we’ll probably never know.

Sub-Mariner #38 (Feb. 1955) Cover: Syd Shores (signed) Sub-Mariner: “The Sub-Mariner Strikes!” – 8 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) Sub-Mariner: “Wings on his Feet” – 3 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) “Shark!” – 4 pp. – Joe Maneely (signed) Sub-Mariner: “The World Destroyers! – 7 pp. – Bill Everett (signed)

REPRINTING: The lead story was reprinted in Marvel Super-Heroes #12 (Dec. 1967), “Wings on His Feet” in MSH #17 (Dec. 1968) and in Giant-Size Defenders #1 (July 1974); and “The World Destroyers” in GSD #3 (Jan. 1975).

Whatever the reason(s), in Sub-Mariner #38 Namor’s original superstrength is restored by a machine called a Rejuvenator, by command of his emperor. As a side effect, the device’s “atomic radiation” grows wings on his feet—and sonuvagun if he can’t fly! From then on, Namor was the hero he had been at the height of his 1940s popularity—only better-dressed, now that he wore scaly blue trunks. Oddly, someone decided he should’ve had the wings even as a youngster, so in that issue’s flashback tale of a 14-year-old Subby, it turns out they’d first appeared one day when he needed to get himself and his mother out of an icy crevasse. Did they wither and fall off after 1949, since this story’s final caption says they were, “for years to come, to bless me with the power to fly”? That phrase is the closest thing ever made to an attempt to reconcile the two “origins” of the ankle wings. The third “Sub-Mariner” story is yet another with aliens from space attempting to conquer the Earth. The filler story this time launches an informal “nature” series which deals over a trio of issues with sharks, octopi, and swordfish.

Namor gains ankle-wings—and the power of flight—twice in the same issue in Sub-Mariner #38. Yet, after that issue, those wings were never depicted on any of the remaining covers. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

A Guide to the Timely/Atlas Hero Revival

The Last Hurrahs The new super-strength and flight power of Prince Namor would last only four issues before the plug was pulled on him, but there’d be some glorious moments along the way.

Joe Maneely proudly signed his third Sub-Mariner cover, as he did most of his work—but the artist(s) of that of #42 are unknown, though they may include the ubiquitous Carl Burgos, working with others. Thanks to Doc V. for the copy of #41’s cover. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Sub-Mariner #41 (Aug. 1955) Joe Maneely signed the cover of Sub-Mariner #39; that of #40 is unsigned, but is apparently by veteran Timely artist Syd Shores. There’s enough resemblance to Everett’s work, though, that it’s legitimate to wonder if Bill E. had a hand in the latter cover. Thanks to Doc V. for the copy of the cover of #39. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Sub-Mariner #39 (April 1955) Cover: Joe Maneely (signed) Sub-Mariner: 7 pp. - Bill Everett Sub-Mariner: “Gets a Lesson in Humility from Namora!” – 4 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) “Octopus!” – 4 pp. – Howie Post (signed) [see note below] Sub-Mariner: “The Long Night!” – 8 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) REPRINTING: The 4-pager was reprinted in Sub-Mariner #54 (Oct. 1972).

Sub-Mariner #40 (June 1955) Cover: Syd Shores (?) Sub-Mariner: “The Secret Tunnel!” – 8 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) Sub-Mariner: “Meets a New Enemy… Fire!” – 4 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) “The Man Who Loved the Sea!” – 4 pp. – artist unknown Sub-Mariner: “The Icebergs!” – 7 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) REPRINTING: The 4-pager was reprinted in Marvel SuperHeroes #20 (May 1969)—“The Icebergs!” in Marvel Feature #1 (Dec. 1971).

Cover: Joe Maneely (signed) Sub-Mariner: “The Big Freeze!” – 7 pp. – Bill Everett Sub-Mariner: “Bird of Prey!” – 4 pp. - Bill Everett “Swordfish!” – 4 pp. – artist unknown Sub-Mariner: “The Return of the Nautilus” – 8 pp. – Bill Everett (signed) REPRINTING: The third Namor story was reprinted in SubMariner #53 (Sept. 1972).

Sub-Mariner #42 (Oct. 1955) Cover: Artist(s) Unknown Sub-Mariner: “Invasion!” – 8 pp. – Everett (signed) Sub-Mariner: 4 pp. – Bill Everett “The Last of the Vikings!” – 4 pp. – artist unknown Sub-Mariner: “When the Light Goes Out!” – 7 pp. - Everett REPRINTING: “Invasion!” popped up again in Marvel SuperHeroes #13 (March 1968), while the issue’s (and series’) final story was reprinted in Sub-Mariner #45 (Jan. ’72). Stories like those in #39, with “Commie frogmen” and El Diablo, the hypnotist who mesmerizes Namor briefly into committing crimes for him, were not likely to add much to the luster of the hero. It’s ironic that that issue’s “Octopus!” is signed “Stan Lee & Howie Post”—Stan’s only official writing credit in any of the 23 issues of the revival—since his major fame and celebrity status in the 1960s and since are totally tied up with super-hero features! (Just for the record, Namor is stated to be fifteen in the 4-pager.) Issue #40 contains more of the same, with the Reds building a tunnel

Young Men’s Adventures under the Bering Strait between Siberia and Alaska—interestingly, the same trick the Nazis and Japanese had tried, with far less geographical rationale, back in Marvel Mystery Comics #17 (March 1941), leading SubMariner and The Human Torch to stop fighting each other long enough to team up to stop an Axis backdoor invasion! “The Icebergs!” has Namor utilizing a huge block of ice to try to conquer the surface-men—the very stunt he’d fought Byrrah for trying back in issue #36. Namor is even happy at story’s end to let humans go on searching for uranium in Antarctica, since it may help to “further the peace.” (And Namor is sixteen in the 4-pager.) Incidentally, beginning this issue, an open-lettered “The” appears before the word “SubMariner” on the logos of all his stories—except the final one, in the very last issue of the revival series.

And Then There Were… None!

17 In the untitled 4-pager, the young hero, whose age for once is not given—but he seems younger than in some of the more recent episodes in this series—meets the Ice King, a figure of myth and legend to his sub-sea people, but no one believes him. The final tale of both the issue and the revival series has the ironic title “When the Light Goes Out!” The name is logical enough, since the fairly mundane story deals with criminals turning off a lighthouse beam so that a prison ship crashes on the rocks and their leader escapes. Still, it’s tempting to believe that Bill Everett (or possibly some other writer) gave the story that name because he knew the light was going out for the Sub-Mariner comic. However, just as it seems to have been coincidental that the final issue of Fawcett’s Marvel Family in 1953 had been titled “And Then There Were None,” so does this situation, too, seem more likely to be merely a coincidence.

In the lead story in #41, And so The Sub-Mariner, Prince Byrrah teams up with a like The Human Torch and new ally in his attempts to Captain America slightly more defeat Namor—none other than than a year earlier, was put the Communists, or his back into mothballs. Indeed, “Commie friends,” as Namora all three heroes having been Namor attacks some hapless felons in the final story in Sub-Mariner #42. calls them. Actually, the Russkies canceled twice, we readers [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] double-cross Byrrah: he thinks he’s could be forgiven for thinking simply turning a profit by helping it unlikely that any or all of bring great quantities of ice to Central America, while the Reds are using them would ever receive a third lease on life. the icebergs to smuggle arms into the tropical countries. We had reckoned without what Stan Lee and Jack Kirby would The “young Namor” story has the hero, at age 17, not too long accomplish—starting, as it turned out, a mere seven years later—with before he made his debut in the events of Marvel Comics #1, battling a Fantastic Four #1 & #4 (1961-62), The Avengers #4 (1964), and even huge metal bird which, of course, turns out to be a Nazi warplane. So Fantastic Four Annual #4 (1966). Surely, it’s just another coincidence ’twould appear that, even before he sliced the air-hoses of deep-sea that the original Sub-Mariner, Captain America, and even Human Torch divers in 1939, he had downed an Axis aircraft, with almost certain death (following the Johnny Storm version) each returned in the fourth issue to its pilot—though what a German fighter-bomber was doing over the of a series… but return they did. Antarctic at that stage is never explained. And they’ve never really been away since. “The Return of the Nautilus” deals with a painting of the legendary [Roy Thomas, who has to consider the ever-increasing probability submarine from Jules Verne’s novel 20,000 Leagues under the Sea, and that some new readers of Alter Ego may never have heard of him, winds up with Namor in combat with a “ghost sub.” When it is feels that perhaps he should mention that over the years since he destroyed, so is the Nautilus in the painting—another one of the (mildly became Stan Lee’s assistant editor in 1965 he has at various times illogical) supernatural twist endings Bill Everett had worked with in the scripted Sub-Mariner, Captain America, The Avengers, and Fantastic pre-Code horror comics. Four—and that in the mid-1970s, following a two-year stint as Marvel’s editor-in-chief, he conceived The Invaders, a comic that coSub-Mariner #42 was the hero’s 1950s swan song. starred Namor, Cap, and the original Human Torch in adventures occurring during their halcyon heyday of World War II. The latter The “Invasion!” in this issue’s lead story is a Red attack on his underwas far from his least pleasurable experience in the comic water kingdom, which the U.S. Navy helps the hero defeat. book industry.]

The Short and Happy Atlas Age of Super-Heroes part two

“I’d Forgotten I’d Ever Done It!

RUSS HEATH Talks to Jim Amash about His One and Only “Human Torch” Story! Excerpt from an Interview Conducted & Transcribed by Jim Amash [A/E EDITOR’S INTRO: Scheduled for an early issue of Alter Ego is a long, in-depth interview with veteran (and master) comic book artist Russ Heath that was conducted by Jim Amash. Only a few paragraphs of that interview deal, even indirectly, with Russ’ lone “Human Torch” story, which appeared in Young Men #24. In the interest of making this issue’s coverage of the 1953-55 Atlas Super-Hero Revival as thorough as possible, we have excerpted that brief section here. —Roy.] RUSS HEATH: Someone once said to me that I did “The Human Torch,” and I said I hadn’t. But they found a copy of the comic and showed it to me. I’d forgotten I’d ever done it. You know, when you have a career that lasts over a half century, you forget some of the things you did. The character was supposed to be on fire, so I drew flames coming off him. Over the years, they had kind-of taken the flames off his body and he turned out to be a guy in a red suit with a lot of scratchy lines on him. When Stan brought him back, they wanted to change that, and they looked at my old “Torch” story. JIM AMASH: This story is one of Roy Thomas’ favorite super-hero stories of that period, published in Young Men #24 in 1953. It was the first new “Torch” story Timely had done in four years. Roy and I both noticed that the Torch figure in the splash panel was redrawn by Carl Burgos, the creator of The Human Torch, which is odd. It seems as if they’d have had him draw the whole story if he was good enough to redraw the splash, for whatever reason they wanted that done. What else do you remember about this assignment? HEATH: Nothing. Sometimes I wonder why something was redrawn, and it’s because the number of ads in the book was different and they’d extend something by half a page. Like maybe Joe Kubert would draw half a page when there was no ad to put there. I was late on one job, and they put in two pages by someone else. But in the case of this “Torch” story, I have no idea why the splash was redrawn. JA: Me, either. The story has been reprinted several times over the years, and in my opinion, it’s the best “Human Torch” story of the time period. It’s strange that Stan wanted a different look to the character, and yet you only drew that one story. Do you think he didn’t like what you had drawn? HEATH: No. I’d have known if Stan hadn’t liked it. Once I’d gotten in, there was very little discussion over my work. They knew what to expect from me and weren’t going to nitpick over my work. If an editor

Russ Heath’s Human Torch in action, from page 2 of the lead tale in Young Men #24—and a self-portrait of an uncharacteristically bearded Heath from a 1960s war comic, as seen in the 1994–95 Chris Pedrin’s Big Five Information Guide, a valuable illustrated index to DC’s war mags. We understand a second volume is on the way. [Torch art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.; portrait ©2004 DC Comics.]

has to nitpick all the time, he’s not much of an editor, because either he’s poor at describing what he wants, or you’re so damn stupid you can’t take direction. After a while, you should be giving him exactly what he wants. [A/E EDITOR’S P.S.: Upon reading this section of the Heath interview several times, I believe that both Jim and I made a false assumption about what Russ was saying at one point. When he says at the end of his first quotation above that “when Stan brought him [the Torch] back, they wanted to change that [his appearance when aflame], and they looked at my old ‘Torch’ story,” Jim and I separately misread that statement as Russ saying he’d been asked to do a somewhat different version of the Torch in 1953, as inherent in Jim’s second bloc of copy above. However, on close examination, Russ is saying that it was when Stan brought the Torch back in 1961 (i.e., in Fantastic Four #1) that he may have been influenced by Russ’ 1953 story. [Actually, even that is far from certain, since, as Tom Lammers pointed out in A/E #29, Jack Kirby drew the new Human Torch’s flames in F.F. #1-2 very much as he had handled the fiery monster called Dragoom in 1960’s Strange Tales #76. Still, I stand by my judgment that Russ Heath’s “The Return of… The Human Torch” in Young Men #24 was a singular achievement, however inadvertent on the artist’s part. Indeed, in 1972, when I began my first regular stint as scripter of Fantastic Four with #126, having just become Marvel’s editor-in-chief as well, I gave penciler John Buscema photocopies of Russ’ 1953 story and asked him henceforth to draw the flaming Johnny Storm à là the Heath version, which John (inked by Joe Sinnott) duly did. After I stopped writing the title, the Torch gradually returned to the Burgos-style look first done by Jack Kirby in F.F. #3. —Roy.]

The Short and Happy Atlas Age of Super-Heroes part three 19

“Captain America Was A Dirty Name!” JOHN ROMITA on the First Super-Hero Feature He Ever Drew–––“Captain America” Interview Conducted & Transcribed by Jim Amash [INTERVIEWER’S NOTE: Roy Thomas interviewed his longtime Bullpen colleague John Romita pretty thoroughly three years ago in A/E V3#9; so, since he’s using John’s very first but neverbefore-published 1953 “Captain America” splash as (Above:) A somewhat fuzzy photo showing (l. to r.) Jazzy Johnny this issue’s cover, I Romita, Rascally Roy Thomas, and Smilin’ Stan Lee at the 2000 leaped at the opporMegaCon in Orlando, Florida, where they competed with a trio tunity to ask John a of youngish artists on a trivia panel to raise money for charity. few questions about Marvel’s 1960s brain trust nosed out the young punks—just barely. Cap’s 1950s revival. Photo by Dann Thomas. This interview is (Right:) John drew Captain America many times after 1954—including meant to this commercial illo of the Star-Spangled Avenger hitting what just complement the has to be a home run! [Art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] earlier one, but we also veered off into other areas. In addition, I wanted the chance to JA: Were you were supposed to be the artist of “Captain America” publicly thank John for all the help he gave me when I was trying to from the beginning? break into comics. He was always there when I needed advice. The ROMITA: No. Mort Lawrence started the story, and either he or Stan time I remember most occurred when I came up to the Marvel offices was disappointed by the results. I happened to be in the office, and Stan from North Carolina, looking for a break. I knocked on his door, and said, “How would you like to be the artist on ‘Captain America’?” I he said he didn’t have time to talk right then, because he only had an almost jumped out of my skin, because I was a Jack Kirby freak. Stan hour to finish a cover rough. He asked if I was having any luck—I showed me the finished page, and I even think a cover was done. wasn’t—and he suddenly realized I didn’t live in town. “You came from North Carolina, didn’t you?” I said I did, so he pushed aside JA: Could that have been the cover to Captain America #76, where the rough and said, “Okay. I’ll give you twenty minutes.” He Cap has that cartoony smile on his face? proceeded to go over my samples, pointing out my weaknesses, saying, “You’re ready to go pro, but here’s a few things you still need to work ROMITA: It was either that or the cover to Young Men #24. Lawrence on.” Armed with that advice, I went home, did a brand new didn’t do any covers after the Captain America title started. portfolio, and immediately broke into Marvel Comics as an inker. For JA: So Mort Lawrence had already done a splash of his own? that kindness when he really couldn’t spare the time—and for all the other times, too—I’ll always be grateful to John Romita. —Jim.] ROMITA: I think so. Far as I recall, Stan took the two bottom panels from my first page and put them under the Lawrence splash. But it never occurred to me to ask for my [unused] original splash back. I was too JIM AMASH: Roy covered most of the bases in regard to your comic young and innocent to even think about it. I’ve made so many mistakes book career [in A/E #9], but I’d like to fill in a couple of areas. Stan of omission and gave away so many wonderful things over the years that didn’t use your original “Captain America” splash for Young Men I should have kept. #24. JOHN ROMITA: That was an interesting thing. At the beginning of my Timely career, I used to go in and drop stuff off. I didn’t see the finished product until the book came out. I wasn’t hurt by the change, but was very disappointed and felt I was still an amateur, because Stan had replaced my splash with someone else’s. But, as I recently told Roy, when I saw my splash for that story again after all these years, I realized Stan did the right thing in not using it. It was pretty hokey, and Captain America looked liked he was 12 feet tall. Stan was right, and I should have known he was right all along. The published splash wasn’t inspiring, but it was certainly better than mine.

Frankly, in the 1950s, I was sure comics were only going to last another year or so. I even threw out my sketches back then, so you can’t go by what I thought. I picked up a photostat of a George Tuska page, which he inked with a number five brush. I pinned it to my drawing table and used it for inspiration for about a year. I used a number 5 brush and was doing all this fine detail work with a fat brush and a sharp point, and as long as I wasn’t tired, the lines came out just fine. As soon as I got tired, the lines came out ugly and thick. JA: What made you think that comics weren’t going to last?

John Romita

(Left:) The balloon-less black-&-white copy of the full (and signed) John Romita “Captain America” splash page from Young Men #24, courtesy of Bob Wiener. The sound effects in panels 2-3 must’ve been done by John. A few of the thinner inklines, e.g., some of the scaling on Cap’s shirt in panel 3, are nearly lost on these proofs. Of this long-lost 1953 splash, John wrote in a 2003 e-mail, after seeing it for the first time in exactly fifty years: “I didn’t recall how silly looking that first splash was… Stan helped my career by not using it… and that Red Skull was pathetic… I’m not sure I should let you print it (just kidding… at my stage in life it’s historic… or hysterical).” Hey, don’t be so hard on yourself, John! (Right:) The published version, with the Mort Lawrence splash panel, repro’d from b&w proofs from a sadly forgotten source to whom we owe a free copy of this issue! But judging by Cap’s dialogue in panel 2, it seems that a Red Skull balloon (“Let ’em have it!” or some such) was dropped somewhere along the line. [© Marvel Characters, Inc.]

ROMITA: I was under that impression when I started in 1949, ghostpenciling for Les Zakarin, who was working for Timely and other places. [NOTE: See Zakarin interview in A/E #27. —Jim.] I figured I’d just do these stories to make a few extra bucks. I had no plans to stay in comics. Everyone I spoke to thought we were treading water. Even Stan said he was waiting for comics to get so small that he couldn’t make a living anymore, so that he could write novels and screenplays. Everybody I knew felt they were in it on a temporary basis, including Davey Berg, who was doing mystery stories and then war stories for Timely. He hadn’t started at Mad yet. As people like Dave, Jack Abel, and myself sat in the Timely waiting room for scripts or art approval, we would talk. We all had the feeling that comics were a dying industry and wondered what we’d do next. People forget that, at that time, there would be one or two good years and then a bad year, where everyone was struggling for work. And then there’d be another good year, and then maybe two bad years—bad enough that many of the guys left comics and went into technical art or advertising. Gene Colan was working full-time in the Timely bullpen in 1948, and then he was laid off. He said it was the most traumatic thing that had ever happened to him. You know, when you’re 19 or 20 and making a steady buck, and then you’re told that the company’s closing down next

week, you feel terrible. So Gene had the bad break then, and once again in 1957, when Timely temporarily stopped publishing. You can imagine how those things made him feel. Timely publisher Martin Goodman used to close shop at the drop of a hat. If expenses got too high, he’d say “the hell with it,” and close shop. Nobody had any protection because there were no pensions, no severance pay or insurance plans, or savings plans. Everyone who worked in comics were flying by the seat of their pants. I remember the atmosphere in the late ’40s and early ’50s—especially the mid-’50s, when Congress started to come down on comics. We were all watching the hearings—they made us look like butchers. You’d think we were killing children in every panel. I used to tell my wife Virginia, “I’ll only do comics for a while, and as soon as it closes down, I’ll get a job in New York, in a studio.” Nobody I knew said, “I’m going to be in comics for the rest of my life.” We all figured we’d have to get nine-tofive jobs at some point. It was a very negative period. JA: Well, if it hadn’t been for Les Zakarin, you wouldn’t have gotten into comics in the first place, would you? ROMITA: Probably not, because I wanted to be a painter and an illustrator. I was doing Coca-Cola illustrations for soda fountains at a lithography house. I was making a big $25 a week, but I did freelance pencils

“Captain America Was A Dirty Name!”

I was always late on my Spider-Man deadlines, and the last thing I wanted to do was to lose time, so I wouldn’t be surprised that many guys touched up my artwork back in the 1950s.

for Les and tripled my salary. That’s why I even decided to go into comics. Besides Timely, we also worked for a company named Trojan Comics. The art director was a little guy who wore a cowboy hat. I swear, working with him was like entering the Twilight Zone. I used to bring my pencils in and Lester used to ink them. In retrospect, I realize I was doing bondage covers. I only did three or four covers for them and Les inked them all. I also worked for Sol Cohen at Avon, but I don’t think Les inked any of my stories there.

Let me tell you something: the first time I met Jack Kirby in the Marvel offices, he was touching up a Steve Ditko cover—correcting the pencils. That was not the first time. Even in the mid-’50s, I used to correct stuff all the time. When my artwork was in there, people like Carl Burgos touched up my work mercilessly, and I corrected others’ work when Stan asked me to. It was Stan’s normal procedure.

JA: Getting back to that first ”Captain America” story: I compared the line work of the Xeroxes that Roy sent me of the other pages of the story to what was published, and I noticed some differences in line weights and detail. ROMITA: Stan must have had someone touch those pages up. He was notorious for that. JA: The inking on this first story looks a little different than your other “Cap” inks, even though your inks still show through. It always seemed to me that maybe Joe Maneely “beefed up” your inks.

At Jim Amash’s cajoling, John R. sent us cover proofs he had of two of the covers he penciled for Trojan Comics. We already printed that of Crime Smashers #7 back in A/E #27, in conjunction with our interview with the inker, the late Les Zakarin, but here’s the one for Western Crime Busters #7 (Oct. 1951). John refers to these as “’cave-style drawings.” [©2004 the respective copyright holders.]

ROMITA: I wouldn’t be surprised, because Joe was close enough in the office to help out in emergencies. Joe was the guy in the late ’40s and through most of the ’50s who did what I did for Stan in the ’60s and ’70s, which was—whenever somebody’s artwork came in that wasn’t quite what Stan wanted, he’d bring it in to me to do touch-ups. Frankly, I didn’t want to do that stuff.

Roy always kids me about not inking the circular stripes in Captain America’s shield. I don’t know where I got the nerve to do that, but I did draw the first circle with the star in it. I indicated in pencil where the circled lines should go, so the colorist would have a guideline. I don’t know if Stan told me to do that, or if I decided to do it on my own. The colorists used to mutilate the job, and the colors went all over the shield. It shows you how we were flying by the seat of our pants. JA: The cover of Captain America #76, that we mentioned before, is a strange one. There seem to be two, maybe three different artists working on that cover. [See p. 7 for this cover.] ROMITA: I didn’t work on that cover. I think Carl Burgos did most of it, or at least penciled it.

JA: I think so, too, but the Captain America figure is drawn by a totally different artist, possibly Mort Lawrence. ROMITA: Lawrence may have penciled it and Stan decided to change the details. Carl Burgos was a staffer and was very involved with the covers. He used to lay out the covers. He wasn’t exactly an editor, but he was in charge of the covers. Stan was involved, but he didn’t have enough time to do all that he wanted to do in that regard. JA: On those black-&-white proofs of your “Cap” story in Young

Editor (and reputed writer) Stan Lee seems to have had John re-draw (and vertically extend) the first panel on page 3, in order to emphasize the new, bulkier Steve Rogers—and incidentally do away with those boxer shorts!—with the result that Bucky and two hoodlums were eliminated from panel 3 below it. Thanks to Bob Wiener for the previously unpublished b&w proofs. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

John Romita

Men #24, there are no word balloons, though the pages are inked. You must have handed in the stories inked, without prior approval of the penciled work. ROMITA: Stan told me to work that way in order to save me time. I used to pencil the word balloons in and ink around them. Later on, at DC, I did the same thing on my romance stories. I’d ink up to my penciled balloons and then somebody would do a hack job filling in the areas around them. I started lettering the balloons in pencil and then inking in the balloon outlines so that wouldn’t happen anymore. Ira Schnapp, the staff letterer, used to do a magnificent job keeping the finished lettering in the inked balloons. This method saved me from making extra trips into the city and having to sit around for a job to be lettered before I could ink it. JA: Jack Abel inked a couple of your “Cap” stories, instead of you. Why was that? ROMITA: Stan probably divided up the job in order to have me work on something else. Anytime I didn’t finish a job, it was because Stan had something else for me to do. That’s why, years later, he had Gil Kane or John Buscema work on the Spider-Man book. What he wanted me to do most of the time was to pencil two books instead of one. But no matter what else I did, I was still responsible for Spider-Man. Same thing with Captain America earlier.

asleep at the drawing table quite often. I was never satisfied with the work I did. I kept trying to work harder, and it was always selfdefeating. For the first 15 years I thought that every job I did would be my last one. I was afraid someone like Stan would say, “I’m not going to give you another job until you improve.” JA: That is a tough way to work. When you were doing “Captain America” in the ’50s, were you happier than doing mystery or romance stories? ROMITA: Only because I remembered Kirby’s work so fondly. I wanted to do it like Jack Kirby, and frankly, the only reason it doesn’t look like Kirby’s work was because I couldn’t do it. If I had been able to draw it exactly like Kirby, I would have. When I penciled it, I thought it was exactly like what Jack would have done. And when I inked it, it ended up looking more like Milton Caniff than Jack Kirby. To me, I was penciling like Kirby. The fact that it didn’t come out looking like Kirby was a failure to me. JA: I still see Milton Caniff’s influence in your work today. ROMITA: Let me tell you—Milton Caniff is still there. Everything I see, I see through Caniff’s eyes. You know, for years, I told Stan that I thought I was the reason Captain America was canceled. JA: Did Stan write these stories?

JA: How much reference were you given when Stan gave you the Captain America book?

ROMITA: Yes, Stan wrote them all. I remember seeing his name on the scripts.

ROMITA: None. It was all up to me, and I had to scrounge around to find some of Kirby’s stuff. I was too stupid to even ask for reference. [Jim laughs] I was not what you call a real professional then. I was terrified of every job that I did.

JA: You didn’t really have time to get to know other freelancers during your Timely days, did you?

I’ll tell you something strange: for about ten to fifteen years, I never did a job that I felt confident about. I always asked myself if I was able to do this job. That’s a helluva way to make a living. My problems started early, when I did my first 15-page romance story. I told Virginia, “I don’t think I know how to do another story. I used up all my ideas on this one.” [laughs] I was so exhausted by that first story. I used to fall

ROMITA: No. I’d meet people while waiting for an editor, but I was never in a position to stay in town for long. Every time I went into an office, I was exhausted and sleepy, and couldn’t wait to get back home and get some rest. I also didn’t have a lot of money to spend. Some guys stayed in town and got together for coffee and a bite to eat. I always regretted that I didn’t do that, because I missed out on getting a lot of tips and good times by not being with those guys.

Other types of artwork John Romita was doing for Timely about the same time as he was drawing “Captain America” include horror, love, and western. The splash pages from Uncanny Tales #10 (July 1953) and My Own Romance #36 (Feb. 1954) were provided by Dr. Michael J. Vassallo, while the Western Kid splash was sent by Michael Baulderstone from an Australian black-&-white reprint. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

“Captain America Was A Dirty Name!”

(Left:) “Roy always kids me about not inking the circular stripes in Captain America’s shield,” says John. Actually, R.T. recalls the Jazzy One telling him once that simply “holding” the stripes with color and no inklines was an idea he (John) had because it was a lot of trouble to draw all those circles and ovals, and that he felt he’d “really sold Stan a bill of goods on that one.” On all three panels on this splash page from Young Men #28, there’s only a single color-held red outer stripe; the rest of the area around the inner star-and-circle is white. In black-&-white repro here, the red stripe vanishes entirely. (Right:) John mixes equal parts of Jack (Captain America) Kirby and Milt (Terry and the Pirates) Caniff in this final story-page from Men’s Adventures #28. But John recalls Stan telling him that the U.S. “chauvinism” of the stories caused complaints. But not from the thirteen-year-old who fifty years later is writing this art note, I assure you! [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Frankly, I also felt inadequate because these were all seasoned pros. Even guys who had started just a year before me, had so much more confidence than I did. I felt like a kid looking in a candy store. It was hard for me to go in and talk to them like an equal. I’d have loved to sit and listen to them and learn, but I never had the nerve to do that. JA: When you were doing that early “Captain America,” did Stan request many changes of you? ROMITA: He probably did. Every time I went in, Stan took the opportunity to ask me to make a change. JA: So Stan was very detail-oriented, even then. ROMITA: Oh, he was a fanatic. There were times when Stan would hold up the engraver—who was waiting for us—because we were making changes at the last minute. JA: You said you felt like the cancellation of the Captain America book in 1954 was your fault…. ROMITA: Oh yeah, I felt like a failure. I’ll tell you why. Timely was also doing the Sub-Mariner and The Human Torch. Bill Everett was doing Sub-Mariner and Dick Ayers was doing The Human Torch. Carl Burgos probably didn’t want to do that much of a deadline. JA: But Burgos was doing the Torch covers as well as other covers,

and all five “Torch” stories in Young Men. ROMITA: Yes, but I don’t think he wanted to be responsible for the entire book. I don’t think he wanted to get into that grind again. I can understand that, because those kinds of deadlines used to torture me. Captain America was canceled before the other hero books, and I was sure it was an indictment on my work. JA: Maybe you were informed of its cancellation first, but actually the Captain America book must’ve been canceled about the same time as Human Torch. [EDITOR’S NOTE: Matter of fact, the third (and final) revival issue of Captain America, #78, has a “Sept. 1954” cover date, while Human Torch #38, the last of that series, has an “Aug. 1954” date—so Cap may even have slightly outlasted Torch, that time around! —Roy.] ROMITA: Well, at the time, it seemed like it [the Torch book] went on for a while. JA: Maybe you’re just remembering that the Sub-Mariner book lasted a year longer. Dick Ayers told me that Stan told him that The Human Torch was cancelled because of complaints from parental groups. ROMITA: They were afraid that kids would set fire to themselves, imitating the Torch. In fact, that kept The Human Torch off the animated television show, Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends. We

John Romita

came up with another character in his place, Firestar. Firestar was my idea. The network would not let us use The Human Torch in that series. Later on, Stan told me Captain America was cancelled [in 1954] because of its politics. Timely got a lot of mail complaining about chauvinism. The American flag was a dirty word in those days, because of the backlash of the Korean War. We had gone to war seemingly unnecessarily. It was a “police action” and people died. People were saying that America was putting the American flag over human safety, and that they weren’t going to buy Captain America, because it’s an excuse for people to kill other people in the world for America’s sake. You remember how they burned American flags in the 1960s? For a while, Captain America was a dirty name! That’s the reason they dropped it. JA: Did you ever hear how the sales figures were on Cap? ROMITA: Sales probably weren’t that good, but there was a flurry of interest at first. It’s too bad it died too soon. It would have been nice to see if we could have built some momentum. Stan was doing short stories, and they weren’t like the human interest stories Marvel did later. We knocked those stories out just like we did the westerns.

JA: Yeah, but it’s still a powerful image. So where was this drawing supposed to be published? ROMITA: It was supposed to be a demonstration piece. What they did was to make a red-and-green Xerox of each of the parts. It was a test to see if we could do 3-D stuff, like a 3-D Captain America comic. I remember seeing the acetate version of it, and when you viewed it with 3-D glasses, the illusion worked very well. But they abandoned the idea. Lots of times, Stan would start projects and Martin Goodman—or someone else— would say, “The hell with it. It’s not worth it,” and we’d just drop it. We did 3-D photographic stuff where I would do backgrounds in tone, and then someone would do a laser copy to try and get a 3-D look. Do you remember those holographic covers we did on a few comics? Those were all demonstrating the holographic look that we were planning on doing. I did original drawings and sometimes I inked someone else’s version on this project.

I used to spend weeks and weeks on projects like that, which no one ever knew about. Being in the office, it’s a wonder I ever got any work done at all. I worked on a 3-D box, where I had to do cut-out figures and color them... it was like a shadowbox, where Now it can be told! The Kirby/Romita cover for Captain America they’d light it up like a miniature stage #193 (Jan. 1976)—the first issue in which Jack returned to write set. I did Spider-Man dangling from a JA: When you did Captain America and pencil the comic he and Joe Simon had co-created in 1940— web and swinging through the in the 1970s, you were locked into was originally intended as a demonstration of a 3-D drawing. Hey, shadowbox. I did a cityscape for the your style and weren’t thinking about it almost makes it even without wearing red-and-green glasses! background. If I had saved all this Jack Kirby by then. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] stuff, I could have made a fortune on them, but it would have been a museum piece. ROMITA: I wasn’t. By then, I was doing it my own way and was doing it like a cross between Caniff and Kirby. One of the fun things I did in I also did toy designs which sometimes got made and sometimes those years had to do with a new character in Captain America. didn’t. I spent a couple of years doing toy designs. I also designed the Remember when we had Steve Rogers become a policeman? Stan introSpider-Man balloon in the Macy’s parade with Manny Bass, who was the duced a new character that was basically an update of Cap’s wartime engineer in charge of balloons. He was a genius! He explained the sergeant, Sgt. Duffy. This sergeant was called Muldoon, for whom I used aerodynamics of balloons, so I could design it to work. Manny gave me Jack Kirby as a model… though Stan had his hair colored red in order to a great compliment when he said, “It’s one of the best balloons we look like an Irishman. That was a labor of love, which I did for fun. It have.” was a cartoony version of Jack; I put a cigar in his mouth and gave him sort-of a crewcut like Jack had. I spent a lot of time doing things that weren’t comics. I did coloring JA: You inked one of my favorite Captain America covers when Jack came back to Cap in 1976. It was the cover of issue #193, and it looked very three-dimensional. ROMITA: You know, there’s a story about that cover that nobody knows about. That cover was never meant to be printed as it was. That cover was drawn as an experiment in 3-D. I inked it on six layers of acetate. I did his fist on one layer, his arm on another layer, his torso on another layer, his legs on another layer, and the backgrounds on another layer. It was meant to be published in 3-D, with the illusion of his fist coming out of the panel. When you see it without 3-D, the fist looks like a gargantuan’s oversized fist and Captain America looks like some kind of freak with tiny legs.

books and children’s books, which is something I always forget to tell people. Sol Brodsky and I ran the special projects department, so I was out of mainstream comics for 3-4 years, starting in 1981. That’s about the time I gave up the Spider-Man newspaper strip. I worked for Marvel for 40 years, 30 of it on staff, from 1966 to 1996. And Virginia worked on staff for 21 years, from 1975 to 1996.

JA: Since we’ve strayed off the subject a bit, let me ask you about a couple of people you knew while on staff at Marvel. Like Bill Everett. ROMITA: That’s one of my cherished periods. There was a time when I was sitting three feet away from Jerry Siegel, who was proofreading for us. Now, I was buying Sub-Mariner when I was ten years old and Bill Everett was one of the top guys in the business. And here I was,

“Captain America Was A Dirty Name!”

working near Bill Everett and gabbing all day long. Now I had Jerry Siegel sitting there on my left—I was like a kid in heaven. It was amazing! I had great experiences like that. Gil Kane used to come in and talk all the time and it was wonderful. JA: Jerry Siegel was the other guy I was going to ask you about. How long did he work there? ROMITA: About four months, I think. He needed some money, and I think Stan was glad to have him proofread for a while. He was very quiet and certainly didn’t blow his own horn; he didn’t talk a lot. He’d wear a blue shirt and a dark tie and sweater. He didn’t come in looking like one of the guys who created the industry. Maybe some other guys would have been strutting around like roosters, but he was not that kind of guy. Besides what happened to him with Superman, Jerry also had that bad stretch at Ziff-Davis, which ended up in failure. That must have been hard on him, after being top-dog for so long and having to admit he couldn’t make a buck anymore. I’m sure he wasn’t having fun at that time and had no reason to blow his own horn. I always felt terrible for him. I wanted to go over to him and act like a fan, but I never did. I should have done that, but you know how it is. You want to be a pro and not embarrass anybody. JA: Did anybody ever really talk to him in the office?

Is the splash of this unsigned lead-off story from Captain America #77 drawn completely by Romita? It’s a beaut, either way. The remaining two panels are certainly all-Romita. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

ROMITA: I’m sure they did; I’m sure Stan did. But I was always working with my head down. I didn’t pay a lot of attention, unfortunately. That was a bad mistake I made. I wish I had paid more attention to my surroundings. JA: Let’s get back to Bill Everett. ROMITA: Bill was a wonderful guy to work with. I can’t tell you what a joy it was to work with him, though he had health problems. He used to tell us stories about working in the old Timely bullpen with John Severin and Joe Maneely. Can you imagine those three in the same bullpen? They used to go out to lunch and sometimes came back a little bit tipsy because they’d had a couple of beers. Bill told me that they used to exchange pages. “Hey, I’ll work on your pages and you work on mine, and we’ll get them done fast.” [mutual laughter] They did all sorts of kooky things. I can only imagine how much fun they had while trying to make a living.

I think Bill worked on staff until he died. He was there every day and inked other people’s work, like Gene Colan, Jack Kirby, and Ross Andru, in addition to coloring stories. Bill did wonderful work. It was almost a crime to ask him to work on someone else’s stuff when he was quite a genius. But he didn’t mind it. He did struggle because of his health. When he was working at home, instead of the office, he’d come up with some strange stories about why he couldn’t get a job done. But he wasn’t feeling that well. I know he had quit drinking because he was getting pretty healthy at the end there. But it all caught up to him and his body was not strong enough to fight it through when his health

John Romita

broke down. It was so sad, because he was such a great and very talented guy. JA: I know I’ve done this before, but I just can’t end this without telling you how grateful I am to you for all that you did to help me become a pro. You really went out of your way at times for me. I remember you called me up long distance once, saying you didn’t have time right then to mark up my samples, so you decided to spend a few minutes telling me what to concentrate on. ROMITA: I appreciate that. It means a lot to me to hear that. It always makes me feel great when a guy tells me that I was responsible for him sticking with the business and not giving up. It makes my day, because it means that all those hours of working in the city were worth it. I helped you because you had talent and just needed some help—and you listened to advice. JA: How could I not, when it came from you? You knew how to give honest, direct criticism. You put me on the right track by telling me were I was going wrong. ROMITA: That’s what I was after. Virginia used to tell me I was tough, but I said, “At least I’ll set them on the right track.” I’ll tell you the

truth: if you ever heard me go over my own artwork, you’d hear me tearing it apart. Half the stuff I did was nowhere near where I wanted it to be. I was as hard on myself as I was on anybody else, and I never was cruel to anyone else. JA: I’ll certainly vouch for that! A lot of what I do today is because of you. Not only that, you’ve done the same for a lot of other people and you deserve recognition for your good works. ROMITA: Thank you very much. That makes a big difference to me, when I find out that what I did paid off for someone. JA: You know, I grew up with your work and admiring you, and I don’t know if I can express to you how it felt to have stood there while you were helping me. ROMITA: I used to feel that way, too. Once I was on a bus at Disneyland with Frank Frazetta and a bunch of young artists who were working for CrossGen. I could hear them talking behind me, saying, “I can’t believe we’re on a bus with John Romita.” I said, “You want to know something funny? I can’t believe I’m sitting on a bus with Frank Frazetta.” [mutual laughter] That shows you that we all have those moments.

We printed all three splashes from Captain America #78 with our big Romita interview back in Alter Ego #9, so here’s a pair of action-packed story pages from that issue. At left, Cap and Bucky battle the Commie super-villain Electro on a giant typewriter straight out of a Bill Finger Batman script—while, at right, Cap literally tries to make time stand still. Alas, that was beyond even the power of the Sentinel of Liberty, and after #78 he went back into mothballs for a decade. But you can’t keep Captain America down—and since 1964 he’s been back for forty years, and is still going strong! [© Marvel Characters, Inc.]

The Short and Happy Atlas Age of Super-Heroes part four

“Fighting Fire With Fire”

DICK AYERS Tells Still More about His Halcyon Days on The Human Torch Interview Conducted by Roy Thomas

Transcribed by Brian K. Morris

[INTRO: Only a few months ago, in our Christmas issue (#31), we ran an extended interview with veteran illustrator Dick Ayers. However, we had no intention of putting together this special section without talking again to this artist who had drawn well over a dozen “Human Torch” stories for that revival. We’ve tried as much as possible to avoid duplication of what was said and shown in A/E #31, which we suggest you compare with what follows. In order to be able to discuss all his 1954 stories, I made photocopies of all of them, and of one or two other items besides, and mailed them to him a few days before I phoned him on Jan. 15, 2004. Dick refers to these photocopies at the beginning of the interview. —Roy.] DICK AYERS: I appreciated seeing all that art, because I don’t have all the issues, and what I do have is packed away, and it’s too much work to get to it. RT: That’s why, in the 1960s, I had my run of the revival issues bound in three volumes, so I could set them on a bookshelf and not have them packed away in boxes. I thought the photocopies might refresh your memory, better than our just talking about them, with me mentioning details you couldn’t check for yourself. AYERS: I can see, like we discussed before, where Carl Burgos Torch and Toro figures cover up the ones I drew in my first issue [Human Torch #36]. For some of the splash panels, he did the whole thing— either he or Sol Brodsky or somebody. And I remember that, at the time, it would upset me very much. For instance, the one where the bulldozer is trying to run down the Torch… and the one with the giant vampire bat on it, too. RT: Interesting—’cause those two are in Human Torch #37, your second issue. You’re saying someone else did those entire splash panels? Burgos? AYERS: Whoever. Stan would never say anything. But when he assigned me to the Torch, he sent me a photocopy of Russ Heath’s story and said, “This is the way we want the Torch to look.” RT: Strange. Stan seems to have wanted you to do the Russ Heath version—yet only the single story by Heath ever had the Torch look that way. Even your later version looked more like the Burgos Torch than the Heath version. A Burgos Torch figure is even pasted over Russ’ Torch on his splash page. Stan must’ve changed his mind early—or else maybe publisher Martin Goodman didn’t like it and said, “Let’s get back to the way he was.” But we’ll never probably know.

Dick Ayers at an exhibit of comic art (including his own) at the Cartoon Museum in Rye, New York, circa 1985—and the splash of the lead story from Human Torch #36 (seen on the wall behind him), repro’d from the original art, courtesy of Ethan Roberts, who has perhaps the largest collection of Ayers art on the planet. Dick says that “I did everything on that page except Toro. That was a paste-up probably done by Carl Burgos.” Photo courtesy of Darlin’ Dick. [Art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

AYERS: By the time I got to the stories set in Korea, I was really drawing in the action. In fact, I can see what was coming in Sgt. Fury later. That was what Stan liked—that action. I had them flaming into the jet planes, helping the planes fly [in HT #38]. I loved that kind of stuff. RT: I always liked the scene where the Chinese Communist soldier is trying to bayonet the Torch from the back, and first his bayonet and then his rifle vanish into the Torch, until the soldier himself is swallowed up totally in the fire. I guess that’s the way it was written. AYERS: Oh, yes, pretty much, and I’d just exaggerate what was written. RT: Well, to go through the stories more or less in order—I presume you were familiar with the Torch and the other heroes from the

Dick Ayers

1940s, at least to some extent? AYERS: [laughs] I never even heard of them! Like I said in the other interview, I took my work in to Popular Science and the editor told me, “Oh, you should be working for Simon and Kirby.” And I said, “Who are they?” That was in 1946, I think. I had friends that had read those comics, but my favorites were the ones that reprinted newspaper strips, like Tip Top. RT: You said Stan told you Torch was canceled because of groups during the Wertham years complaining about the Torch. Stan, of course, doesn’t remember that, but that doesn’t mean too much. [mutual laughter] John Romita thinks there might have been complaints that kids might set themselves on fire. Did you ever hear that complaint? AYERS: No, but I do know that, when I was doing Ghost Rider, we had one story that involved Russian roulette. [Magazine Enterprises publisher] Vin Sullivan told me, “Oh, no, we can’t do that!” He also told me, “Never is the sheriff or the police to be the bad guys.” This is even before the Comics Code. There was some boy who supposedly played like he was Superman and

The splash panels of these two stories from Dick’s second issue, Human Torch #37, were apparently drawn by another artist—and the Torches’ figures at lower right on “Vampire Tale!” seem definitely the work of Torch creator and Timely staffer Carl Burgos. The rest of the art on those pages, and in the remainder of the stories, is by Ayers. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

jumped out a window. And that scared the hell out of us. I mean, the imagination goes to work, and who knows if some kid might have read The Human Torch and set himself on fire? RT: Right. I did send you one story that definitely wasn’t yours. It was probably drawn right before you started on Human Torch, because it’s from Captain America #76. I’m curious if you had any idea who might’ve drawn it. It looks a little like Burgos, but it could have been Sol Brodsky or someone else. AYERS: It might have been Sol. RT: It’s either Burgos or imitation Burgos, but Sol drew a lot like that, too, and so did a few other people. The other “Torch” stories that aren’t clearly by Burgos are by you. I know you still have your record book from that period. Were the stories published in roughly the order you drew them? AYERS: Well, we can check. I have them numbered. For instance, that story “The Un-Human” that wasn’t published till years later—in my book it’s “Human Torch #19,” and the [unpublished] story called “Voodoo” was #20; it was the last. I only did twenty. RT: That’s interesting, because I’ve got you down as doing seventeen. In which case, if “Voodoo” and “The Un-Human” were #19 and #20, I wonder what was #18. Do you know? AYERS: Wait a minute. I’ll look it up. [pause] Usually I have four or five “Torch” stories listed together because they came that way, but here, all of a sudden, I was getting them spread apart. Ah, here’s #18— “Fighting Fire with Fire.” Maybe that one didn’t come out. RT: No, it came out as a backup in Captain America or SubCall Ye Ed bloodthirsty, but both as kid and adult, he digs the four-panel Ayers-drawn sequence at top of this page from Human Torch #38. Note, by the way, that in the final panel (as throughout the issue) the Torch is suddenly wearing (yellow) boots—and his wrist-trimming has been enlarged, as well. This page is a great example of the action feel Dick was getting into the “Torch” strip—just before Timely pulled the plug. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

“Fighting Fire With Fire”

Mariner. [pause] No, wait—you say the name is “Fighting Fire with Fire”? AYERS: Yeah. RT: The story I was thinking of, one of your Korean stories, is called “Playing with Fire.” So “Fighting Fire with Fire” must be a third story that wasn’t published in 1954. Those “Torch” stories had to be written with specific books in mind, because all the ones in Human Torch were six pages—the two lead stories in Men’s Adventures were eight— and the fillers in SubMariner and Captain America were all five. So while they could have switched the Captain America and Sub-Mariner stories around, the others had to be at least intended for some particular comic, if not for a particular issue.

(Left:) This 5-page return of The Vulture, from Captain America #76, is the only “Human Torch” story from the revival that isn’t definitely by Russ Heath, Carl Burgos, or Dick Ayers (or some combination thereof). Artist unknown—may be partly Burgos, or Sol Brodsky, or—? (Right:) Some later 5-pagers were called “Featurettes,” as per this one from Sub-Mariner #34. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

I’m curious—two of the five-pagers you did for Captain America and Sub-Mariner have an identical box on the splash saying “A Human Torch Featurette.” Did you letter that, or would it been pasted on at the office later?

one—is the one with the giant dinosaur. It was obviously inspired by the 1953 movie The Beast From 20,000 Fathoms, the first giant monster movie after the re-release of King Kong a little earlier. Had you seen that movie? It was a Ray Harryhausen picture.

AYERS: They must’ve pasted them on. I didn’t do those boxes.

AYERS: I can’t remember. It was way back. But this is way before Kirby came into the scene, and already Stan was feeling monsters.

RT: Just for the record—you’ve stated that when a story was signed with both of your names, you usually did it by yourself. And if you just signed “Ayers,” it usually meant Ernie Bache [pronounced “baysh”] assisted you. AYERS: My signature was a printed one that I pasted onto the stories. And it might’ve been stuck on a couple of stories Ernie Bache worked on. Because I think he worked on all the “Human Torches” with me. RT: I notice the stories in the first issue [#36] all have your “Dick Ayers” pasted-on signature. And the three in #38 all say just “Ayers.” But the middle issue, #37—the issue which has the bulldozer and vampire splashes you didn’t do—none of the “Torch” stories in that issue are signed at all.

RT: Yeah, there are lots of combinations of the Torch with other genres. There’s a certain horror feel even to science-fictional stories like “Vampire Tale,” even though the vampires turned out to be aliens. And some of the aliens in the other 1950s “Torch” stories were horrific. But horror comics were popular at that time, so it’s only natural. AYERS: Even The Ghost Rider went in for horror. We started out with just chasing bad guys, but then— RT: Suddenly he’s fighting Frankenstein’s Monster and everything else. [laughs]

AYERS: No. Whether that got whited out, I don’t know.

AYERS: Yeah. Carl Memling would come up with the idea that they weren’t real monsters; they were contrived.

RT: The splash page of the third “Torch” story in #37—“The Menace of the Unhuman”—also looks like it might be by Burgos.

RT: Well, Ghost Rider wasn’t a real ghost, either.

But in #38, the last issue, the splashes are all yours. I also sent you all three Human Torch covers. Do you think those are all Burgos, or Burgos with somebody else? Or would you recognize that, necessarily? AYERS: No, I really couldn’t say. I’m assuming, like you. RT: Now, in #36, that first issue, one of the more memorable stories— and for some reason, several pages of the original art exist for that

AYERS: You know, in the very first “Ghost Rider” story where he sees the ghost of Wild Bill Hickok, and all that… that was my idea, which they incorporated into the story. RT: Yeah. Another minor point—in all the “Torch” stories from the 1940s through the ones you drew, the Torch always wore the same costume—even though it was blue at first, and later red. And a bit of yellow trimming. But then, in the three stories in your last issue, #38—and also in the last “Torch” story that was printed in Sub-

Dick Ayers

Mariner—he suddenly gains a pair of shin-high yellow boots. It’s in the art lines, as well as colored. I was always curious if you or Stan added the boots because you felt, “Jeez, he looks like he’s running around in leggings!” [laughs] AYERS: I might have done that, yeah. But I don’t recall. RT: In the last story in Torch #38, called “Flame On,” all of a sudden the Torch has the power to move so quickly he’s invisible! When you drew that, did it seem to you that it came out of left field, or did you just figure that if the writer wrote it, you’d draw it? AYERS: Yeah, if he wrote it, I’d draw it. RT: On the last page of that story, a U.S. captain slugs one of the Communists in a close-up, and three of the guy’s teeth are shown flying out of his mouth. Would that have been something that the writer would have directed, or that you thought it was an interesting way to show a powerful blow? AYERS: That would show the blow, yeah. RT: I notice that, when you lettered stories, you tended to put in your balloons a lot of curly little cloud-like curves, instead of just a simple oval shape. Did you feel that made the balloons more dramatic, like a part of the art?

This Ayers-drawn story, “The Un-Human,” lay unpublished for fourteen years, till it was re-discovered and first published in Marvel Super-Heroes #16, along with other reprints and the Gary Friedrich/Herb Trimpe origin of “The Phantom Eagle.” [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

AYERS: [chuckles] I did that to gain space that I could draw in. And I know there was a point there where Sol [Brodsky] called me one day and said to make them more rounded, “Don’t do that type of thing.” They wanted the ellipse. RT: What was Sol doing at that time? Was he still, even then, sort of helping out in production? AYERS: Maybe that wasn’t in the ’50s when I did that. In the ’60s I was still lettering a lot of the western stories. RT: Oh, that’s probably when it was, then. By the mid-’60s, I know Stan didn’t want balloon shapes that drew attention to themselves. But earlier, I guess he didn’t care, and your balloons have a distinctive shape. AYERS: Yeah, they did, but no complaints.

“Playing with Fire!” was one of several 1954 “Torch” stories set in Korea, in the uneasy aftermath of the U.N. “police action” there—no relation to “Fighting Fire with Fire,” the title of an apparently lost Ayers/Torch tale. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

RT: One thing you did, and maybe other artists did, too, when you drew the Torch grabbing somebody or flying off with them, was to have the flames on his arm vanish so he wasn’t burning the person. Would that be dictated by the script, or by Stan, or did it just seem logical to you not to have him flaming? AYERS: No, Stan must have alerted me to that when I first started, or it seems like that. He did talk to me on the phone.

“Fighting Fire With Fire”

fillers, and they didn’t publish that inventory. There are a lot of “Torch” stories with aliens, I notice. Did you ever feel they were getting maybe a little repetitious? Not in the art, but in the writing? AYERS: Ray Krank, the editor at Magazine Enterprises, knew I was working for Stan up at Timely, and he said, “You know, always, they got these spaceships coming down and some guy gets out of the spaceship, some alien. Someday, it’s gonna land and Jesus is gonna get out of it.” [laughs] In other words, it was being overused. RT: Yeah, there were a number of them. A couple even had almost the same plot, with humanity hating the aliens and trying to kill them—then the aliens would help humanity, and the humans would feel ashamed of themselves. Still, I’m sorry there weren’t more hero stories at that time—and that two of your stories are still lost.

We saw another page of this Ayers-drawn proto-Godzilla story from Human Torch #36 (with and without Burgos paste-ups) back in A/E V3#3. Here, repro’d from the original art courtesy of Rich Donnelly and Ethan Roberts, respectively, are a full page plus a later tier from that adventure. In the tier, the Torch and Toro figures seem to be by Burgos—but, though there are telltale signs of a paste-up in panel 3 on the full page, and around both Torches in panel 4, some of the other flaming Torch figures on the page may be by Ayers. Somebody sure went to a lot of trouble! [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

AYERS: At that point, the comics all collapsed at the same time. I lost The Human Torch and then I lost Ghost Rider. He didn’t die, but he went on a shelf. And I started having trouble with the Code even on the other westerns. That meant less and less work. And poor Ernie and I had to split up, and we were developing into a good team there.

RT: Makes sense, because in the “Menace of the Unhuman” story in #37, it’s a story point that the Torch forgets and accidentally grabs somebody with his hand flaming, and the guy doesn’t feel anything, so the Torch figures out he’s actually an android. Let’s see, did you tell me before what comic that other “Un-Human” story—the one that wasn’t published until the ’60s—was slated for? I know that you told me the “Voodoo” one was for Captain America. AYERS: Let me look at my records. [pause] “The UnHuman”—my “Torch #19”—was for Sub-Mariner— T-960, Sub-Mariner. RT: Strange, because Timely published Sub-Mariner for another year, but after the first three issues, even though they had two or three of your “Torch” stories on hand, they started using non-hero sea stories as

The Torch kills the flame on his arms in order not to burn a falling child in Captain America #77—but forgetfully grabs a man’s wrist while afire in Human Torch #37. This turned out to make the Torch realize his friend Pete was, unknown even to himself, one of the very androids they were stalking. A nice touch, which showed a certain amount of care given to the development of the heroes. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

The last I ever spoke to him, once before he died, he was doing work up at Charlton. He and I together were perfecting a really good system, and he worked right beside me.

Dick Ayers

Another rare find! Ethan Roberts sent us photocopies of a tier of original art (top) from the “Ape” story in Human Torch #36—and it turned out that the Burgos Torch & Toro paste-overs had long since fallen off, revealing the Ayers figures beneath. At this point, Dick was probably still aiming for something closer to the Russ Heath approach he had seen. The tier as published is seen below. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

RT: Did he do any real penciling on the work he did with you? AYERS: Here’s what I did: I penciled, but I penciled more or less like you described as the way Steve Ditko does. I just laid out the page, but a little tight, tight outline—stuff like I did for Joe Orlando over at DC later. And then I’d take my brush or pen, and I’d outline the stuff. So then Ernie would take the page and would erase everything—and then he would heavy the lines, and then he would finish up the buildings, and all that type of stuff, and get that detail. And it worked great. So we could handle three accounts and we did, right up until that point. You got me looking at this stuff, and I see what Ernie did and remember he was very valuable to me, yeah. And it was just a sign of the times, whether it reached a point where, well, I had to let him work at home instead of making the trip all the way up here, because the rates were getting lower and lower. But we had some good times together.

Ayers at war! At left, the final page from the Korea-set “Playing with Fire!” in Captain America #78—and a recent illo of Sgt. Nick Fury, whose World War II exploits he drew during the 1960s-70s in Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos. Dick’s still drawing away, and invites readers to check out his e-mailing list, moderated by Pete Stefanowicz, at <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ ayers-l>—or to contact him directly at (914) 949-6275 or via e-mail at dickayers@webtv.net to commission a re-creation or other piece of art… rates negotiable! [Torch art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.; Sgt. Fury art ©2004 Dick Ayers; Sgt. Fury TM & ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

The Short and Happy Atlas Age of Super-Heroes part five

“I Wish Wal-Mart Sold Memory!” STAN LEE Remembers–––Well, Just a Little Bit–––the 1950s Revival

Interview Conducted by Roy Thomas

[NOTE: In January 2004 my longtime boss and mentor Stan Lee kindly agreed to talk to me on the phone about the revival, although he warned me in advance—as if I needed warning at this stage—that he had a notoriously poor memory for things that had happened so many years ago, and of which he had kept no written records. Later, he generously responded to one or two additional points by e-mail; those responses have been edited into this piece. —Roy.]

Transcribed by Brian K. Morris

’40s—and in those days [publisher] Martin Goodman made all those decisions. All that would have happened would have been that he’d have said to me, “Stan, bring back the Torch.” And half of the times I didn’t know why. Probably more than half of the times, I had no idea why he did it. We were just like a production house in those days. He said, “Put out some books,” and I’d put out the books.

RT: One reason I loved that revival at age 12-13, and remain enthusiastic about it to Smilin’ Stan’s never been above a little humor at this day, is that it was handled logically, and his own expense, as on the occasion this photo of RT: I just have a few questions, since you said with acknowledgement and respect for what himself was taken at the 1995 Stan Lee Roast held you wouldn’t remember anything. Not that I had come before. It was explained in Young at the Chicago Comicon. We printed the whole blame you, after fifty years and all the comics Men #24 what each of the principals had been affair in Alter Ego V3#1. Here, we’ve surrounded you’ve edited. Still—do you recall at all why up to since 1949—the Torch buried underhim with splashes by Carl Burgos, John Romita, it was that, four years after the demise of The ground till an A-bomb blast freed him, Steve and Bill Everett, taken from a 1994 premium reprint Human Torch, Captain America, and SubRogers teaching high school, Namor going of Young Men #25, the second “Atlas hero revival” Mariner, all of a sudden in ’53 it was decided back to the South Pole. It was treated as if, issue. [Art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] to bring them back? I’ve always assumed it hey, these guys vanished four years ago, this was because of the success of the Superman TV show. is what happened to them, and now they’re back! There had to be some central hand that dictated how the heroes (and even The Red LEE: Gee, I didn’t even know they had been away. I didn’t know they Skull) were brought back, whether it was you or someone working were brought back; I don’t remember that at all. editorially under you. RT: I can see where you wouldn’t, because, after all, those heroes had LEE: Well, if I were editor at the time, I must have had something to do been going for nearly a decade while you were editor—and by ’53 with the way those characters were brought back, although I don’t they’d been gone for only four. remember. However, as I said, the one who would have decided to bring them back would’ve been Martin Goodman. LEE: But I can tell you this: you’re talking about the early ’50s, late

Stan Lee RT: And, of course, Bill Everett was there. So you had two of the heroes’ three creators there, working for you. So you just put Bill on that. LEE: You know, that’s great. I don’t really remember working directly with Bill and Carl. And I’m trying to think, is it just that I’ve forgotten, or was there anybody else there who was the editor? I mean, I was the editor at the time. Was there—? RT: Of course, at various times, artists or writers have said that they dealt with different people who were sort-of editors under you. The same way, say, Gary Friedrich or I would’ve been in the late 1960s. For example, Don Rico and Al Sulman— LEE: Right, they were under me—and Ernie Hart— RT: And supposedly, around this time, Carl Burgos was considered by Romita and others to be sort-of an unofficial cover editor. LEE: He may have been, he may have been. RT: So you probably didn’t have many dealings with these books. Did you proofread all the stories at that time, all those several comics a week that were coming out? LEE: I don’t know. I honest-to-God don’t know. I know I glanced at Panels from the Russ Heath-drawn “Human Torch” tale from Young Men #24. A pity that, in the otherwise excellent 1997 trade paperback The Golden Age of Marvel [Vol. 1], this story alone had to be reproduced at the last minute from a copy of the original comic, so that one of the best-looking “Torch” adventures ever printed turned out way too dark. Does Russ’ Torch look like he’s on fire, or what!? [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

RT: One especially interesting thing to me is—although the cover of the comic that brought all three heroes back, Young Men #24, was by Carl Burgos, the interior “Torch” story was drawn—and it was the only one drawn—by Russ Heath, and in a much more realistic style, with a new look to the Torch’s flames. Do you remember that? LEE: No, I didn’t remember Russ Heath had ever drawn it. RT: Actually, neither did he, until we showed it to him. [chuckles] Strangely, though it was a beautifully-drawn nine-page story, on its splash what I realized later is a Torch figure by Carl Burgos has been pasted over one of Russ’. So I guess you, or somebody, maybe Martin Goodman, decided they didn’t like that new version of the Torch. LEE: That probably would have been me. But the only thing I can think of, and this is a wild guess, is that Carl might have been sick that month and I needed another artist to do that first story. RT: Maybe so, because Burgos did draw the remaining four “Torch” stories in Young Men, and the covers of the three Human Torch issues. LEE: So often, that would happen. There’d be a different artist because the normal artist would have been ill, or would have been on vacation, or on jury duty, or who knows—because I never really wanted to switch artists once there was a guy doing something, and I wanted to keep him on it. RT: Once Burgos started doing the stories, he did the next several until the Torch got his own book for three issues. And then, I guess, maybe Burgos was too busy, doing lots of covers, etc., because you got Dick Ayers to draw the actual Torch title. That was Dick’s first superhero work for Timely. He drew all three 1954 issues of Human Torch, although you had Burgos Torch figures pasted over Dick’s throughout the first one. Do you remember anything about that? Probably not. LEE: No.

Carl Burgos turned out some of the best work of his career on “The Human Torch” this time around, as in this page from Young Men #26, repro’d from black-&-white photocopies of the original art. Other pages from this first “Vulture” story have been reprinted in previous issues of Alter Ego. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

“I Wish Wal-Mart Sold Memory!”

splash, but then for some unknown reason John was assigned to it instead. Then, a few months ago, I was sent a Xerox of some original art that turned out to be the never-published, 50-year-old John Romita splash panel from that 1953 “Captain America” story. LEE: Gee whiz. You have to wonder where it was all these years. RT: On looking at it after so long, John feels his splash was pretty bad—and maybe it isn’t quite up to the rest of his art for the story, though it’s hardly as bad as John thinks, or I wouldn’t be so happy about using it as a cover for Alter Ego. [chuckles] He says you did him a favor by having the Mort Lawrence splash substituted for his. LEE: Well, I would make decisions like that all the time. RT: I could understand that decision after I saw the “lost” splash, because the Lawrence drawing that was printed was one of the type that I recall you really liked, with Cap flinging criminals away from him like water, and he’s got his head flung back. It’s a very dramatic shot… and yet, John’s drawing is good, too, in its way.

Bill Everett did a magnificent job, both in terms of art and writing, in summarizing Sub-Mariner’s early days in this page from Young Men #24— and would soon do the ultimate version of Namor’s origin in Sub-Mariner #33. Repro’d from b&w photocopies of the original art, courtesy of a sadly forgotten benefactor—but you know who you are! (So please— tell us, okay?) [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

everything. Whether I proofread them, I don’t know, Roy. RT: The third very interesting artist choice is that, since Simon and Kirby were long gone, and though Syd Shores was still around at the time, you or somebody under you made John Romita the “Captain America” artist. That was a particularly happy combination, too. Do you remember John doing “Captain America” in 1953-54? LEE: I don’t remember it, but I think it would have been a good choice on my part. RT: Yeah. The only “Captain America” story John didn’t do was one later one that Mort Lawrence did. LEE: Oh, God. I’d forgotten Mort Lawrence. Honestly, Roy, I remember his name, but that’s all. I can’t even bring to mind what his artwork looked like. I’m sorry to say I can’t recall how I felt about his work. RT: On Romita’s very first “Captain America” story, in Young Men #24, the splash panel is drawn by Mort Lawrence. The rest of that page, and the other five pages of that story, are by Romita. When I asked John about the Lawrence splash three years ago, he said he thought Lawrence was originally slated to draw the story and did the

John Romita, in his first super-hero assignment ever, proved the perfect choice to draw “Captain America” in 1953-54. John recalls the “Cap” scripts as having Stan’s name on them as writer—though Stan himself feels that, if he’d scribed the stories, he’d probably have signed them, just as Romita often did. Here, repro’d from photocopies of the original art, is the splash page from Young Men #26. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Stan Lee

Stan ventures that, if a Timely/Atlas super-hero TV series had been planned in the 1950s, either Captain America or The Human Torch would’ve seemed a more likely candidate than Prince Namor. But creator Bill Everett’s 1960s account to Ye Editor and others of a mid-’50s deal for a Sub-Mariner TV outing being seriously discussed at executive levels seems to, er, hold water. And apparently Richard Egan, who in 1955 co-starred with brunette bombshell Jane Russell in Howard Hughes’ film Underwater! (see above still), was lined up to play the title role. The authors of the massive tome The RKO Story called the movie “hopelessly waterlogged,” but it may have led to the offer to Egan. Whatever the reason, the Sub-Mariner comic outlasted both Human Torch and Captain America by a good year this time around, as per this lead-story splash from the final issue, #42 (Oct. 1955). [Art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

LEE: I think, in those days, that I looked, certainly, at all the covers, and I think I checked all the title splashes. And I might have flipped through the stories, just to see what they looked like, even if I didn’t read them. There was a time that we were turning out so many books a month… RT: Well, this is that time, 1953 and ’54. It’s that year or two before the Code came in, the height of the horror comics and all. LEE: Yeah. The only reason I wouldn’t have been proofreading them would have been if, physically, I didn’t have the time. RT: I don’t see how anyone could have carefully read all the several books a week Timely was putting out. By the way, John seems sure you wrote those “Captain Americas.” He says your name was on the scripts he got—but it’s not on the printed stories. LEE: That’s strange. If my name was on the script, I wrote the script. My name wouldn’t have been on it otherwise. If the [published] strip is the same as the script, I can’t imagine why my name wouldn’t have been on the strip, too, unless I just wasn’t paying attention to that kinda stuff at that time. But it seems to me that I always signed my name on strips I had written. Oh, well, along with Roanoke and the Loch Ness Monster, I guess it’ll just be one of the world’s great unsolved mysteries. I wish Wal-Mart sold memory! RT: Don’t we all! Obviously, somebody must’ve thought these revival books were a success for a while. The heroes were brought back in Young Men, which had been this kind-of sports-and-hot-rods comic—then suddenly the “Young Men” of the title became Human Torch, Sub-Mariner, and Captain America, who weren’t really that young. And very quickly, by its third hero issue, it must either have sold well, or else Martin Goodman thought it would, because Young Men was bumped up from bimonthly to monthly. But then, after only five issues, it was suddenly gone. LEE: I’m guessing that Martin would never have committed five titles to those characters unless Young Men #24 had done well. I don’t know that for a fact—I only say it because Martin would never publish anything unless something similar had been selling well. He would make

these decisions at the drop of a hat. He would say, “Let’s put out a new book. Let’s change this title to something else. Let’s drop this, let’s substitute this for that.” [chuckles] It was always happening. He lived with the sales figures. He had those pages of sales figures in front of him all the time, and that’s what he based all his decisions on. RT: You must have felt, sometimes, like you were playing in a tennis match, with balls being lobbed at you all the time. [laughs] LEE: Yeah. But I figured, you know, that’s the way it’s done. Martin had our sales figures, and he also got the competitors’ sales figures, and he would very often base a decision on what our competitors were doing. You know, there were so many publishers in those days. If one of them had a title that wasn’t selling, let’s say, and we had a similar title, he’d be inclined to want to drop ours, figuring maybe nobody’s interested in that kind of book. Or if one had a title that was selling, he’d want me to add another one that was like that. RT: And, of course, he may have seen that maybe the Adventures of Superman TV show was causing a spike in the sales of DC’s Superman books. LEE: Yeah, it could have been. And from his point of view, he was probably right. I don’t think he really could tell a good story from a bad one. The one thing I thought he was good at was, he had a good eye for covers. And in those days the cover was so important, because that’s pretty much what sold the book, as they were on display in newsstands all over. You counted on the cover catching a customer’s eye and making

“I Wish Wal-Mart Sold Memory!” him want to pick it up. That’s why I always used those bright colors and everything—because Martin felt that they were what caught the reader’s eye. The one thing he concentrated on very much was the covers. RT: The book that lasted the longest of those three heroes was Bill Everett’s Sub-Mariner. It lasted a year longer than Human Torch or Captain America. Bill told me back in the 1960s that it was because there was this deal for a live Sub-Mariner TV series, because of the success of Superman. So I guess Goodman felt, “Well, the deal will be scotched if we cancel the comic.” So Sub-Mariner was kept going a year longer than Human Torch or Captain America that time. Do you remember anything about it? LEE: I didn’t even know it had gone longer. The only thing I can tell you is, it seems to me if there was a successful Superman TV series, then Sub-Mariner would have been the least one we’d have kept going. I would think it would have been either Captain America or The Human Torch. RT: I understand what you’re saying. But apparently someone had approached Martin Goodman with the idea for a Sub-Mariner TV show. Comedian Herb Shriner was evidently involved… and some company at least partly owned by Arthur Godfrey. They even had

the role of Sub-Mariner cast. It was going to be this fairly popular actor named Richard Egan. Do you remember him? LEE: Yes, I do. RT: He was in the movie Underwater! about that time with Jane Russell. Maybe that’s where the casting idea came from. LEE: Maybe Sub-Mariner lasted the longest because there was more inventory on it than on the other books. Martin Goodman would often publish something just to get rid of inventory. RT: Could be. Although there was one “Human Torch” story we found in proofs in a warehouse that had been drawn in 1954 and never published, till we did in the late ’60s. LEE: Goodman either forgot about it or hated it. RT: Somehow, I must admit that the idea of Bill Everett being far enough ahead on Sub-Mariner to have a year of inventory piled up is a notion I find a little hard to compute. Dick Ayers told me recently that when Human Torch was cancelled in 1954, you told him it wasn’t so much because of sales, but because

“There were two quite different kinds of Timely/Atlas war comics during the 1950s”: the grittier Korean-War-is-hell type, rivaling Harvey Kurtzman’s efforts in Frontline Combat over at EC—and the “heroic” ones like Combat Kelly, Combat Casey, et al. Both types were often ably scripted by Hank Chapman. (Left:) Doc V., who provided both scans, says that “Atrocity Story” from Battlefield #2 (June 1952) is “a classic story drawn by Paul Reinman, one of his best alltime. Just superb! It’s a Cold War anti-Communist propaganda story.” The words “Story by Hank Chapman” may just barely be visible at bottom center. (Right:) Actually, though the Chapman-scripted (if unsigned) and Joe Maneely-drawn lead exploit from Combat Kelly #3 (March ’52) has a lot in common with the next decade’s Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos, there were other “Combat Kelly” tales—also written by Chapman—which matched “Atrocity Story” for downright grimness. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

there was a lot of opposition to comics. That was during the anti-horror movement, and maybe the Torch burning people was considered too frightening, so it was decided to kill books like Captain America and Human Torch. Do you remember anything about any real opposition to Torch? LEE: That could very well be the reason. For years, people would say to me at different times, “Gee, aren’t you nervous about The Human Torch? I mean, a kid could get some matches and start a fire.” So I always had that in the back of my mind. RT: I also remember that in 1967 you told me that, around the time of the Korean War, you learned that Timely’s comics were being kept out of PXs on some military bases, because they were considered detrimental to the war effort, and that was costing the company sales. Do you remember anything about that? LEE: I would have thought they would have loved our books. They made such heroes out of our soldiers.

Stan Lee

have learned only fairly recently, there were two quite different kinds of Timely/Atlas war comics during the 1950s. The ones from around the time of the Korean War were very much “war is hell” stories… gritty and realistic, often fairly downbeat. It was later, after the 1953 truce, that the Combat Kelly/Combat Casey type of story that was the forerunner of Sgt. Fury became the standard. LEE: Maybe I didn’t have much to do with the “war is hell”-type stories. Maybe Don Rico or Ernie Hart—and there was another guy. Remember Hank Chapman? He did a lot of war stories. He was an assistant editor, too. RT: He even signed some war stories. Fans who really study and collect Timely/Atlas comics feel Hank Chapman’s war stories were some of the best ones. I don’t think you wrote a lot of war stories then. At least, there aren’t many with your name on them. LEE: No, I never really cared for war stories until I did Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos. I enjoyed doing that with Jack Kirby.

RT: Well, the thing is, as I myself (Center:) In Young Men #26, the call went out (from the villain, as it turned out) for Human Torch, Namor, and Captain America, and the resuscitated Timely “Big Three” joined forces in the Romita-illo’d “Cap” tale—for one whole panel. But, though the Timely/Atlas revival lasted only one brief year—two, if you count the longer run of Sub-Mariner alone—it sewed seeds which came to fruition in the 1960s with what Stan Lee dubbed “The Marvel Age of Comics.” Yet the 1953-55 resurgence deserves to be celebrated not merely for what it heralded, but for what it was—a run of quality comics, often well-written, and even more often wonderfully drawn, as per this trio of splashes from its final anthology outing, Men’s Adventures #28, by Dick Ayers, John Romita, and Bill Everett. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Adventures into the Unknown, Unknown Worlds, Forbidden Worlds, and Herbie were the most famous titles published by the American Comics Group from the 1940s through the 1960s. While ACG was never a major player in the comics field, editor Richard Hughes’ warm, friendly stories and lively letters pages made the company a favorite for many young fans in the ’50s and ’60s. Comic art expert Jim Vadeboncoeur, Jr., believes this unsigned Adventures into the Unknown cover may be by Ken Bald, who drew a number of ACG covers in the early ’50s. Later, he illustrated such comic strips as Dr. Kildare and Dark Shadows. This cover was probably drawn in 1952. [©2004 the respective copyright holders.]

Mr. Monster’s Comics Crypt

“The Dark Tales cover is unpublished,” says owner Scotty Moore. “The… logo was drawn by [Kurt] Schaffenberger in 1966 on acetate. Dark Tales was one of a number of proposed titles (others included Beyond Space and Twisted) for which covers were drawn but never published.” More’s the pity, judging by this terrific cover! [©2004 the respective copyright holders.] Kurt Schaffenberger himself. How could this sweet-looking guy have drawn such gruesome monsters? Photo courtesy of Mrs. Dorothy Schaffenberger.

Adventure Into The Unknown Covers

Perhaps publisher ACG and its editor Richard Hughes hoped to capitalize on the James Bond spy craze of the early ’60s with their supernatural secret operative, John Force, Magic Agent. Or perhaps not. Either way, above are the covers for issues #1 & #3. Thanks to Stephen Barrington for the former. [©2004 the respective copyright holders.]

“John Force, Magic Agent” also appeared in Unknown Worlds #35, 36, 48, 50, 52, 54, and 56, as well as in his own title, which lasted three issues from January to May 1962. The unpublished Kurt Schaffenberger cover below was intended for the aborted 4th issue. [©2004 the respective copyright holders.]

Mr. Monster’s Comics Crypt

The published cover to Adventures into the Unknown #8 (Dec.-Jan. 1950). AITU was the first regularly-published “horror” comic, after the legendary Eerie but before EC’s Crypt-Keeper and friends got into the act. [©2004 the respective copyright holders.]

This Schaffenberger “floating brush” cover was published in Unknown Worlds #53. [©2004 the respective copyright holders.] The above Adventures into the Unknown art is one of three more unpublished covers attributed to Ken Bald. Scotty Moore, who once owned the art, believes this cover “is a version of the cover to AITU #8 that was rejected for some reason. I think the unpublished piece is far superior. I do know that [editor Richard Hughes] often had more than one cover prepared for various issues and would choose the best one. In some cases, unpublished versions would be used for advanced house ads, only to be replaced when the comic book was actually published.” [©2004 the respective copyright holders.]

Ken Bald in 1971.

Adventure Into The Unknown Covers

Scotty Moore says: “The Haunted cover [above] was probably intended for a companion title to Adventures into the Unknown that didn’t get off the ground, around early 1949. By the time they got around to it, the word was being used by EC in The Haunt of Fear, so they went with Forbidden Worlds to avoid confusion.” [©2004 the respective copyright holders.]

Mr. Monster’s Comics Crypt

There! Hope you enjoyed our special ACG cover gallery. Next month’s Alter Ego will spotlight Canada’s Golden Age superheroes. With that in mind, the Comic Crypt will pay homage to one of Canada’s great, forgotten cartoonists, Fred Kelly—creator of the Golden Age Mr. Monster! Scotty Moore says of this two-fisted cover above: “Spy and Counterspy changed its title to Spy-Hunters with issue #3 at the beginning of 1950, so the unpublished cover above would have to date from 1949. Why it wasn’t used I don’t know—maybe the art wouldn’t have looked right with the new logo.” Maybe not, but it looks pretty sharp with this one! [©2004 the respective copyright holders.]

’Til next time…

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Vol. 3, No. 35 / April 2004

™

Editor

Roy Thomas

Associate Editors Bill Schelly Jim Amash

Design & Layout

Christopher Day

Consulting Editor John Morrow

FCA Editor

P.C. Hamerlinck

Comic Crypt Editor Michael T. Gilbert

Editors Emeritus

Jerry Bails (founder) Ronn Foss, Biljo White, Mike Friedrich

Production Assistant

Eric Nolen-Weathington

Cover Artists

AL JAFFEE & FRIENDS Section

Al Jaffee John Romita

Cover Colorists Al Jaffee Tom Ziuko

1994--2004

NEW ADDRESS FOR TWOMORROWS: 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614 PHONE 919/449-0344 • FAX 919/449-0327

Contents “It Was a Fun Time!” 2 Al Jaffee talks with Jim Amash about his tumultuous years at Timely Comics—and just a little about the early days of Mad magazine, as well!

Comic Archive: Fandom across the Puddle 38 Bill Schelly interviews 1960s South African comics fan (and novelist) John Wright.

FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America) #94 43 P.C. Hamerlinck presents Marc Swayze and Big Bang Comics (part 2)—and bids a fond farewell to Shazam!’s Les Tremayne.

The Short and Happy Atlas Age of Super-Heroes Flip Us! About Our Cover: Not only did Al Jaffee have a mountain of colorful and informative anecdotes to relate about the history of the comic book industry—but he’s a good guy, to boot! With only a little bit of friendly arm-twisting by interviewer/associate editor Jim Amash, Al— who doesn’t ordinarily work for Alter Ego’s less than super-heroic rates—agreed to draw a brand new cover for this side of the issue. For inspiration (and costume info on the heroes), we sent him an early-1940s Timely cover or two drawn by Alex Schomburg, whose exciting and multitude-laden scenes are forever linked with the Golden Age of Marvel… and Al responded with an inspired take-off on same. It features Captain America, Human Torch, and SubMariner, to be sure—but also Super Rabbit, Patsy Walker, and Hedy Wolfe (and Patsy’s boyfriend Buzz), plus some of Al’s own creations: the Squat Car Squad, Ziggy Pig and Silly Seal, and even Ferdy of “Waldo and Ferdy”! Sorry, Mad-lovers—it’s not one of Al’s famous/infamous fold-ins! [Art ©2004 Al Jaffee; characters TM & ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] Above: As he relates in this issue, Al Jaffee never wrote or drew super-heroes for Timely Comics, but he managed to get in the spirit of Martin Goodman’s World War II-era mags all the same. Did ever Cap, Torch, and Namor battle the nefarious Nazis with any more zest than Silly and Ziggy do in this sensational splash page from Krazy Komics #5 (Jan. 1943)? Thanks to Dr. Michael J. Vassallo. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] Alter EgoTM is published monthly by TwoMorrows, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Roy Thomas, Editor. John Morrow, Publisher. Alter Ego Editorial Offices: 32 Bluebird Trail, St. Matthews, SC 29135, USA. Fax: (803) 826-6501; e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Single issues: $8 ($10 Canada, $11.00 elsewhere). Twelve-issue subscriptions: $60 US, $120 Canada, $132 elsewhere. All characters are © their respective companies. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter © Roy Thomas. Alter Ego is a TM of Roy & Dann Thomas. FCA is a TM of P.C. Hamerlinck. Printed in Canada. FIRST PRINTING.

Al Jaffee

“It Was A Fun Time!”

AL JAFFEE Talks about His Years at Timely Comics–––and Why and How He Went MAD Interview Conducted & Transcribed by Jim Amash [INTERVIEWER’S INTRODUCTION: Al Jaffee has ruined the value of more comic magazines than any man alive. Imagine how much your Mad magazines would be worth if you hadn’t spent all those years folding Al’s back covers up in order to see another picture! But Al’s Mad career is only one fold of his cartooning history. Al Jaffee has been tickling funny bones longer than many of us have been alive, and he’ll probably continue to do so for years to come. In the meantime, let’s peek back through the mists of time and let him reveal the secrets of his Timely Comics days, in one of the most informative interviews you’ll ever see on this subject. If it’s any consolation to those who have folded-up Mads at home, I got even by doing the same to Al’s telephone ear, even though he says he’s forgiven me for it. You’re a good sport, Al! Thanks a million! —Jim.]

“The Sunday Funnies Were Magic!” JIM AMASH: I’m always interested in the beginnings of creative people. Please tell me where and when you were born— and what got you interested in drawing. AL JAFFEE: 3-13-21, and I was born in Savannah, Georgia. I’ve been drawing as far back as I can remember. What got me interested as a little kid in Savannah was my father. He was a great copier. He’d get the Sunday funnies, and copy all the funny characters in order to entertain me and my brother Harry. If you were a little kid around the time that I was, the Sunday funny papers were so attractive with their full, beautiful color. Today, kids have color television, color video games, and the like, so that today’s color funnies aren’t such an outstanding event. In my day, the Sunday funnies were magic! So Harry and I became artists. JA: When you started drawing, were you also writing your own stories?

Al Jaffee, flanked by art representing the two genres dominant at Timely during the World War II years: super-hero and humor. (Left:) Alex Schomburg’s cover for All Winners Comics #8 (Spring 1943). (Above:) A latter-day Jaffee drawing of Inferior Man, whom Al created—though for Quality, not Timely—plus a pair of nefarious villains. Al says he feels he “could never draw well enough to do” adventure heroes, so he stuck with humor—as well as writing and editing. In any event, everybody came out a winner, including Mad magazine! Photo & Jaffee art courtesy of Al. [All Winners art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.; other art ©2004 Al Jaffee.]

JAFFEE: Oh, yeah. I made up a character named “Mikey Mouse.” When you’re a kid, you think, “Gee, if I just change the name of the character, that’ll make it an original idea.” We all did it, but then you become more sophisticated and realize that “Mikey Mouse” is exactly like “Mickey Mouse.” So you go on to something else. JA: I’ve noticed that, whenever I’ve talked to adventure artists, they were influenced by adventure strips. And humor artists were generally inspired by humor features. JAFFEE: I think that’s true. My influence goes back to artist Rube Goldberg’s Boob McNutt and all the funny strips, although the adventure strips like Little Orphan Annie and Roy Crane’s Wash Tubbs were important and exciting to me. I really loved the adventures of Wash Tubbs with those sort-of European backgrounds. What predominated in those days, it seems to me, was that the adventure strips were generally drawn in a comic style, like Buck

“It Was A Fun Time!”

Two future Mad-men! Al Jaffee (left) and Will Elder hangin’ in the high school cafeteria (at the School of Music and Art) as teenagers in the 1930s, surrounded by a montage of panels from the Depression-era comic strips Al mentions. [Clockwise from top left:] Boob McNutt by Rube Goldberg, co-starring Mike and Ike (“They Look Alike”) (10-15-33)… Little Orphan Annie by Harold Gray (2-4-34)… Wash Tubbs with Captain Easy in Pandemonia, by Roy Crane (1933)… that crazy Buck Rogers stuff by writer Phil Nowlan & artist Dick Calkins (1929)… Flash Gordon by Alex Raymond (8-12-34)… Pat Ryan and Burma in Milt Caniff’s Terry and the Pirates (8-5-36)… and Jungle Jim, who doesn’t look a bit like Johnny Weismuller in this Alex Raymond panel from 1935. Photo courtesy of Al Jaffee. [Comic strip art ©2004 the respective copyright holders.]

Rogers. The characters were funny characters, even though they did serious things. Then along came the super-adventure features like Flash Gordon, Terry and the Pirates, and Jungle Jim. They really started to capture my imagination, but I could never draw well enough to do those, so I stuck to humor.

“Opportunities… Were Exploding All over the Place” JA: Dave Gantz told me that you and he went to the School of Music and Art together. JAFFEE: Yes, we did. I went to school with Dave Gantz, Harvey Kurtzman, Will Elder, Al Feldstein, John Severin. A host of other guys went there, too. Students at Music and Art came from all five of the boroughs. It happens that Gantz, Elder, and I lived in the Bronx. Feldstein came from Brooklyn, and Kurtzman from the Bronx, but he was younger than Dave, Bill, and me by a couple of years. Dave, Bill, and I were classmates. We spent a lot of time together. Will Elder and I were very close friends, because we only lived a block from each other.

Dave lived much farther uptown and used to get into trouble on his own. He was a pugnacious little guy; no one could challenge Dave without getting a response. Will and I were more peaceful sorts. JA: Dave tells me Harvey was the shyest of your group. JAFFEE: Yes, Harvey was very introspective. He was a very serious humorist, brilliant right from the moment he arrived at Music and Art. I vividly remember seeing a drawing put up on a bulletin board of Harvey Kurtzman’s version of a school boatride. It was very, very well done and very funny to those of us who aspired to be cartoonists, mainly Willy and me. Dave Gantz was a serious artist. He was a painter and did portraits and stuff like that. Dave did not have an ambition to become a cartoonist, but Willy and I had that ambition from the beginning. When we saw Harvey Kurtzman’s stuff, we said, “Who the hell is this kid? He’s challenging us? He dares!” But he was a brilliant guy. JA: Were you more interested in doing magazine cartooning or newspaper cartooning? JAFFEE: To tell you the truth, we were living through the Depression,

Al Jaffee

The late Chad Grothkopf (seen in 1994 photo courtesy of Dave Siegel) may have been a close man with a buck, as Al Jaffee remembers, but he had quite a way with a pencil and brush! At top are two pages of an “Imp” story from, of all places, Captain America Comics #14 (May 1942)—script by Stan Lee, art by Chad; the story page is repro’d from a photocopy of the ink-stained original art from the collection of Dr. Michael J. Vassallo (who sent us the splash, as well). Editor Stan must’ve liked “The Imp,” since he’s ballyhooed on the cover—though it’s another Marvel Mystery how Impy could still be “America’s newest laugh sensation“ when he’d debuted two issues earlier! But it’s no mystery that around this time Chad created “Hoppy the Marvel Bunny” for Fawcett, as per this great black-&-white Hoppy drawing, repro’d from a photocopy of the original art sent by Peter Hansen (via P.C. Hamerlinck). Peter says that Mick Anglo, who put together Fawcett material for I. Miller in England through 1953, told him that most of their reprints were done from original art sent by Fawcett—which, sadly, they generally tossed into the garbage as soon as they were done with it! Anybody out there got any notion of where this Hoppy drawing was used? [“Imp” & Captain America art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.; Hoppy TM & ©2004 DC Comics.]

and the idea was to figure out some way to get some money to get out of our dismal living conditions. We wanted to escape poverty, so whatever was the path of least resistance was what we’d do. I made up a portfolio that had illustrations, woodcuts, scratchboard... everything under the sun. In fact, my first job involved lettering. The point was to get a job, make some money, and start living. If it came through cartooning, great! The reason we gravitated towards cartooning was that the opportunities for it were exploding all over the place. Comic books came in just about the time I went to high school, and by the time I graduated from high school, they were desperately looking for writers and artists. It was only natural that we started to drift in that direction. My first job involved lettering, but not comic book lettering. I worked for a sign company, making stencils for printed signs. That was a terrible job. Every little bit helped, but at $5 a week, it wasn’t the greatest job, not even then.

“It Was A Fun Time!”

The next thing that happened to me was that another schoolmate, Alex Kotzky, was a classmate of my brother Harry’s at Music and Art. He was half a year behind me at the school. Harry was talking to Alex, who said, “If Al wants a job, tell him to go see Chad Grothkopf.” Alex was working for Chad at this time, which was 1941. I went to see Chad. He was inking a feature for Stan Lee at Timely called “The Imp,” and he needed a penciler. So, for $8 a week, I penciled it for him. But Chad was very difficult, because he was a reluctant payer. He just didn’t like to put the money down. Finally I got disgusted with that and said to Alex, “How would you feel if I went out as an agent and took my humor Al feels the “Squat Car Squad” feature he drew for Timely was “a ripoff of the Pepsi-Cola advertisements in the newspapers” stuff and your straight stuff —and in comic books, where the ad-strips (signed by Graham Hunter) were still running in DC mags in 1946. The Jaffeein my portfolio?” He said, signed “Squat Car Squad” is from Joker Comics #5 (Dec. 1942). Thanks to Doc V. [Pepsi ad ©2004 Pepsico; “Squat Car Squad” ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] “Let’s do that.” I made up a character named “Inferior very reserved and quiet, and I think it was a strain for him to go to Man,” and it was pretty much like what I ended up doing years later in Grothkopf and quit. Grothkopf could blow his stack and become Mad magazine. I took a popular item and did a take-off on it. terribly unpleasant. I did run into Chad a few years ago at the Society of Now, Alex was making $25 a week, which was big money. He was Illustrators, and he seemed much more subdued. I guess he changed penciling other features for Chad. I was looking for freelance work, and through the years of affluence, because it was no longer a dog-eat-dog went to see Will Eisner. I don’t remember how I got the idea to see Will period like the Depression was. I think maybe a lot of people acted more Eisner, but someone must have told me about him. viciously in those days than they did later when things got better. Eisner saw Alex’s stuff, and decided he could use Alex. He wanted to hire Alex immediately, which ended my enterprise. Eisner made an offer to Alex that he could not refuse, so I did a good deed by getting him away from Chad Grothkopf. But I was left high and dry with no business. Eisner did take “Inferior Man,” and I worked for him for a brief while. Then Eisner decided to streamline his studio when he started concentrating on The Spirit. The only artists he needed were realistic artists, so I was let go. Eisner felt bad about that, and sent me over to Ed Cronin. “Inferior Man” became a short filler in Military Comics. Dave Berg, whom I’d met at Eisner’s studio, was doing “Death Patrol” in that book, and doing great work. JA: Ed Cronin was editor at Quality Comics at this time, right? JAFFEE: Right, but he had his own studio at some point. Things were in flux in those days. People were editors at comic book companies; then they’d started packaging stuff on their own, so they could make more money than they made on salary. Ed Cronin set up an art studio with a number of people working there. I didn’t work in that studio; he hired me as a freelancer, so I brought in a page or two every now and then. JA: I find your comments about Grothkopf fascinating, because I interviewed Alex Kotzky in 1992 and noticed his reluctance to discuss Grothkopf. JAFFEE: Well, Alex was not a combative type person. He was very,

JA: Whenever I see photos taken of people during those times, they almost always seem to have a hard look about them. JAFFEE: Oh, yeah, because a lot of people were living hand-to-mouth, and unemployment was extremely high. You were fortunate to have a talent, which is what got me, and Willy, and Dave, out of poverty.... after the Second World War, of course. Before the war, everything was up in the air.

“Draw It and Let’s See What Happens” JA: Dave Gantz told me he was looking for work when he ran into you on the street. JAFFEE: Yes. What happened was that after Kotzky went with Eisner, I was sort of high and dry. The Ed Cronin thing just didn’t pan out because I only did one or two “Inferior Mans.” It was just a filler; if they didn’t need it, they didn’t use it. So I decided to go up and see Stan Lee. He had just become editor at Timely Comics; Simon and Kirby had just left. Stan was very young, and partial to humor comics. He wrote “The Imp,” which was kind-of humorous. He said to me, “I have a script here. Draw it and let’s see what happens.” The script was for a feature called “Squat Car Squad,” which was a ripoff of the Pepsi-Cola advertisements in the newspapers. It was about two policemen. Someone else had been drawing the feature and

Al Jaffee

As Doc Vassallo walked us through it: Al Jaffee’s “Silly Seal” and “Ziggy Pig” both debuted in Krazy Komics #1 (July 1942); then, in #5 , Al teamed them up in one feature as “Silly Seal and Ziggy Pig” from that day forward. Hey, it worked for Laurel and Hardy when Hal Roach teamed them up—and from 1944-46 there were six issues of Ziggy Pig – Silly Seal Comics! (Guess they fought over billing, like nearly every other team in show-biz history!) Thanks to Doc V. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

had left, so I really don’t know who was involved in creating it. Stan said, “Write the stories and draw them.” I did, and Stan started buying everything I could turn out. I started needing some help, and I ran into Dave and said, “How would you like to ink my pencils on ‘Squat Car Squad’?” And so we started working together on that. JA: Stan must have had a lot of faith in you, because it’s amazing to me that he’d start you off writing and drawing a feature.

JAFFEE: I did not. JA: There’s been a debate about this. Could Stuart Little or his wife Bessie have created her? JAFFEE: Not Stuart Little. The name “Lord” comes to mind. Was there a lady working there with the last name of Lord?

JAFFEE: I can’t understand that, either. I don’t know what made Stan hand things to me; and he always left me alone, too. That’s how I did everything for Stan. I did “Patsy Walker” that way. I created Ziggy Pig and Silly Seal from scratch. Stan said to me, “Create an animated type character. Something different, something new.” I searched around and thought, “I’ve never seen anyone do anything about a seal,” so I made him the lead character. So I created “Silly Seal.”

JAFFEE: It may have been her, but I can’t say, because I was in the service when Patsy was created. I know Chris Rule did “Patsy Walker,” but he had to co-ordinate with a writer, and that writer’s name was Lord. She came along later. I vaguely remember the name Bessie Little. JA: She was an editor for some of Martin Goodman’s magazines.

One day, Stan said to me, “Why don’t you give him a little friend of some sort?” I had already created Ziggy Pig, who had his own little feature, so it was quite easy to combine them into one series. I said, “How about Ziggy Pig?” Stan said, “Okay!” I should add that, while I created Ziggy Pig, it was Stan who named him. Suddenly, I had a ton of work to do with “Ziggy Pig and Silly Seal” and “Squat Car Squad,” and then I created “Waldo and Ferdie.” I can’t remember others I might have created, but I’m sure there were more. JA: I know this is getting ahead of ourselves, but did you create “Patsy Walker”?

JA: I believe Ruth Atkinson Ford was the original artist.

JAFFEE: Along with Mel Blum, and all those people? Well, she might have done that, because “Patsy Walker” was a response to a very successful movie and Broadway play, called Junior Miss. This was the age of the teenager; anything that had teenagers in it sold. That’s why Archie Comics became popular at that time.

I know that a woman created “Patsy Walker,” and Chris Rule did the artwork. Stan Lee decided to give it to me. I think what Stan liked about me, and maybe others like me, was that we were writer/artists. The communication between your writer self and artist self was clearer. You’d write a story,

“It Was A Fun Time!” Innocent teenage sex by Al J. from Patsy Walker #44 (June 1953). For years the mag was one of Timely’s most popular titles—perhaps the most popular! Thanks yet again to Doc V. [© Marvel Characters, Inc.]

knowing what kind of dramatic effect you wanted in the art. Also, I think, to Stan’s credit, he saved himself a lot of work. If he found a writer/artist he could trust, he could just hand that person a job and leave them alone. There’d be less traffic for him to deal with. He never edited my stuff. JA: When you worked for Stan, you never had to submit a script before you drew it? JAFFEE: Right! I’d pencil-letter a story, send the pencil art to the art department, and they did the lettering. They also had proofreaders, and maybe they did a little editing, because I never sent them a typed script. I pencil-lettered the stories right on the art boards. JA: When you were doing features like “Ziggy Pig and Silly Seal,” would you start out with a plot idea and then write it as you drew it?

7 JAFFEE: No. I did thumbnails. I took sheets of paper, divided them up into panels, quickly writing in the dialogue and drawing stick figures for the characters. I’m a terrible letterer; I can’t stand to letter. The amazing thing was that my brother Harry, who’s no longer with us, was fantastic in everything that I was lousy in. He was a great letterer, and he couldn’t draw a comic figure to save his soul, so we were complementary to each other. He was a great designer, a great letterer, a great painter. He excelled in all the areas that I was not interested in, and never did any comic book work.

“The Money Was Rolling In” JA: Backing up just a bit, you said you started at Timely when Simon and Kirby left. That must have been in the fall of 1941. Dave Gantz also remembered that Stan was in charge when he started working there. JAFFEE: That sounds about right. Did Dave tell you how he got started at Timely? Dave and I had been working

When Al walked in the front door at Timely, just as Joe Simon and Jack Kirby were striding out the back on their way to DC, super-heroes were still the coming thing, as per this splash and house ad from Captain America #11 (Feb. 1942), the first post-S&K issue of the mag the team had created. Al Avison briefly became the new Cap penciler, with inking by Syd Shores and others. But how come the ad for Marvel Mystery Comics neglects to mention the original Ka-Zar, shown at top? Thanks to Mile High Comics. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Al Jaffee JA: Robin King! I knew he inked at Quality, but didn’t know he’d been at Timely in those days. JAFFEE: Yeah, he was working there. Don Rico, Ernie Hart, and others were there, too. JA: In Alter Ego #13, with my interview with Dave Gantz, we printed a picture of some Timely staffers, including Dave, Chris Rule, Ed Winiarski, Barbara Clark Vogel, Marcia Snyder, and Mike Sekowsky. Dave wasn’t sure if this photo was taken in McGraw-Hill or in the Empire State Building. Do you remember the ladies I mentioned? JAFFEE: No, I don’t. That picture was probably taken during the war, when I was in the service, so it was probably the Empire State Building. I officially went into the service in August of 1942. And I didn’t work on staff until after the war; I was a freelancer. JA: Do you remember how much you were getting paid per page? When Al Jaffee moved on, Dave Gantz took over “Squat Car Squad,” as per this super-hero parody sequence from Joker Comics #13 (Dec. 1943). This recent photo, provided by Dave, also appeared with his informative interview in Alter Ego #13. Thanks to Doc V. for the art. [Art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

JAFFEE: That’s hard to answer, because the page rates went up so many

together quite diligently on “Squat Car Squad” and “Ziggy Pig and Silly Seal”; he was doing the inking on a lot of those things. At this time, Dave was supporting his family, because his father had a heart attack and couldn’t work. I felt a great deal of compassion for Dave because he was the family breadwinner, making $25 a week from me. We had a whole studio going in my apartment. My brother was producing airplane pictures, which sold in art stores, and he needed help, so Dave occasionally helped out on those things, too. My draft number was coming up, so I enlisted in the Army Air Corps and was given a respite. I didn’t want to leave Dave high and dry, so I talked to Stan Lee and said, “Can I send a friend of mine over? He’s been helping me with ‘Squat Car Squad’ and everything else. Would you see him, because he needs a job?” Dave needed the money, so he went to see Stan and was given a staff job. JA: Timely was located in the McGraw-Hill building at this time, right? JAFFEE: Right, but I wasn’t on salary. I was a freelancer. The offices there gave you the same feeling that Silicon Valley experienced a couple of years ago; it was euphoric. When you brought a job in, another assignment was handed to you, so the money was rolling in. I was making three times as much money as my father made. In fact, I goofed off a lot because I’d get this big check, and figured I could take the next week off since I didn’t need any more money. Also, Martin Goodman would give everybody a bonus every three months. For instance, I’d bring in an $80 job, and there’d be a $50 bonus. When Fantasia came out, Goodman took everybody to the movies. He didn’t do it personally; we all got together for lunch, and then went to see the movie. It was very easy-going there. There was nobody sitting over you watching to see how much work you were doing. I mean, I was mingling with the guys who were on salary, like Mike Sekowsky, George Klein, and Jack Grogan. The freelancers would be invited to go to these things, and we’d be taken to lunch. There was a great deal of excitement and camaraderie; it was a fun time. There’d be parties down in Greenwich Village. Robin King had a beautiful apartment, and we’d go there.

Two issues back, we ran other art from this “Black Widow” story penciled by Mike Sekowsky and inked by George Klein for U.S.A. Comics #5 (Summer 1942). Well, here’s one more specimen, featuring work by two of the wartime bullpen’s brightest lights. Thanks to Mark Austin of Acme Comics in Greensboro, NC. Fall on by, and tell ’em Alter Ego sent you! [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

“It Was A Fun Time!”

9 many of us are gone now. Anyway, we regarded Robbie Solomon and Frank Torpey as spies. They just marched back and forth, checking to see who was working and who wasn’t, and so on. I guess they reported back, and probably as a result of their evidence, certain things were instituted, such as a minimum number of pages a day each artist had to produce, and eventually the dissolution of the entire staff. The overhead of carrying a staff could be supplanted by making all of us freelancers. That’s what eventually happened.

times over the years. I must have been getting around $10-12 a page for art, but I couldn’t swear to it. The last time I got paid from Timely, which was in the 1950s, I was getting $35 a page. JA: Did Martin Goodman spend any time around the creative help in these early days? JAFFEE: He was in the office a great deal, and I ran into Martin all the time, but we didn’t deal with him very much. We dealt with Robbie Solomon and Frank Torpey, who worked for Martin Goodman.

Al says that postwar work quotas in the Timely bullpen were based on the speed of someone like Syd Shores, who could do maybe a page a day—while Mike Sekowsky “could do that in a half hour.” This cover for Captain America #59 (Nov. 1946) is probably by Syd, while Big Mike reportedly penciled the “Sub-Mariner” story in Human Torch #31 (June 1948), some of which we utilized in A/E #33. Thanks to Matt Moring for the Namor scan. The caricatures of Shores (left) and Sekowsky (right) are the oft-reprinted ones by Dave Berg from Stan Lee’s 1947 book Secrets behind the Comics. [Marvel art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.; caricatures ©2004 Stan Lee.]

JA: Maybe you can clear something up for me. Dave Gantz said Robbie Solomon was Goodman’s cousin, and Vince Fago said he was Goodman’s brother-in-law. Do you know which is correct? JAFFEE: I think he was Stan Lee’s uncle. But you must remember that we’re working with a 60-year-old memory.

They downsized because they were paying for Blue Cross and health plans. The quotas they instituted didn’t work too well. For example, a Syd Shores or Vince Alascia would take a whole day to work on a single page, but Mike Sekowsky could do that in a half hour. They made the requirement based on what someone like Syd Shores could do. I’m talking postwar days here.

Sekowsky was the fastest artist. I was pretty fast myself, though I was doing humor art, which was faster to do than Captain America. In an hour, I was finished with a penciled page, and Mike was finished in fifteen minutes. So we’d sit around and make jokes because there was nothing to do. Before the quota, I would turn out three or four pages a day, and Mike would, too. I think I was doing Super Rabbit at that time. I enjoyed doing Super Rabbit. I wrote and drew it, and had a great deal of fun with it. But then, you were sort-of caught, because I only needed to do one page a day, so why do four? The salary stayed the same, either way. JA: What do you remember about Frank Torpey?

JA: Yeah, but you aren’t hearing any complaints from me. [laughs] One of the things I’m trying to do in these interviews is to put a human face on the names that appear in print, so they won’t just be names in a book somewhere. And many times, their names weren’t even in print. I want the reader to know that these were real people who entertained us, and that you, and they, matter.

JAFFEE: Frank Torpey was the guy who talked Martin Goodman into publishing comic books. He had something to do with the distribution end, and was in the magazine business in some capacity. Goodman and Torpey probably had some kind of deal going. Torpey knew the distribution business very well, and was Martin Goodman’s right-hand man in that aspect.

JAFFEE: I appreciate that very much, because it’s important that people know who we were, and what was going on. It’s a worthwhile project you’ve got going.

Torpey was much older than the rest of us. From my viewpoint as a 24-year-old at the time, Torpey was probably in his 50s or 60s. He was never unpleasant to anybody, and neither was Robbie. I think they had different roles in the office. Robbie would come around and joke with the staffers, but Torpey didn’t; he was more businesslike. Solomon was at least a generation older than me.

JA: Thank you. Without people like you, it wouldn’t be possible to do it, though as you said to me when we first started talking, this should have been done years ago. JAFFEE: Yes. It would also have been much easier for you, since so

Al Jaffee

In Joker Comics #6 (Jan. 1943), Jaffee wrote himself into the one-page “Squat Car Squad” at left as “the mug who writes and draws this stuff.” In the follow-up strip at right, the editor (probably still modeled after recent draftee Stan Lee) got into the act. Thanks to Doc Vassallo. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

“My Strength Is in Layouts and Dramatic Movement”

JA: You couldn’t have done all those Mad fold-ins unless you did. JAFFEE: True. My strength is in layouts and dramatic movement. I never stopped to ponder a panel. As I was going through a story, I could feel the movement of that story, and would immediately make my layouts without any sketching. I worked very directly on the page. Of course, then you have to clean it up and tighten everything, but I was very fast at laying out a page. I’m not talking about stick figures; the detail was there in my layouts. Anyone who wanted to ink it had what they needed to finish the job.

JA: Since you were into humor comics, I assume you didn’t have much interest in the super-heroes. JAFFEE: I did have an interest, and I made up samples, but they just didn’t cut it. I did have a flair for the layouts. In fact, later on, I even did breakdowns for an entire comic book for Gil Kane [NOTE: Brain Boy for Dell in 1962. — Jim.], and Gil said he could practically ink over my layouts. I also did that on a Little Rascals book for Dave Gantz at Dell. Dave was in a bind, and I helped him out. Dave said my rough layouts were good enough for him to ink directly over them, and that saved him a lot of time. I have a good feel for storytelling, but when it comes down to pinpointing the anatomy— well, I don’t have that facility. I know the general area [laughs] of where they are. I never got interested in that stuff. I did try, but I worked so hard at it that I hoped no one would ever hire me. I do have a pretty good sense of composition.

JA: Early on, most of you humor artists started putting yourselves into your stories.

JAFFEE: Yes. I put myself into “Squat Car Squad,” which was a very nice, funny story. These two cops were facing a dilemma of some sort, and one of the cops said something like, “ What do we do now?” The other one said, “I don’t know. Why don’t we ask the writer of this story?” They called for me, and I pushed the panel down and came out from behind the panel. I leaned over and told them what they had to do next. That’s the sort of thing I did.

“It Was A Fun Time!”

11 give us instructions. They could just take the credits out. JA: I always wondered if the signatures disappeared partly because it was wartime. Let’s say, if Bill Everett was killed in battle, then either a house name or no name on SubMariner might protect the publishers and keep the continuity going for the readers. JAFFEE: That never occurred to me, but it sounds reasonable. JA: Did you work for Vince Fago when he was editor? JAFFEE: My connection with Vince Fago was extremely short-lived. He took over when Stan Lee went into the Army, and I went in about the same time Stan did. I didn’t work much for Vince when he was the editor. Dave Gantz told me something about Vince Fago when I was still in the military. Vince said, “Al Jaffee’s hoping to come back to Timely when he gets out of the service. Al Jaffee has no business in the cartooning business.” That was his evaluation of my talent.

Over the years, lots of artists drew Patsy Walker. The cover of issue #1 (Summer 1945), at left, was penciled by Mike Sekowsky, while Al Jaffee drew that of #38 (Jan. 1952). Though the stories were not “Archie”-style humor, the covers were almost invariably gags. And to think that one day Patsy would become Hellcat of The Avengers! [©2004 Marvel Characters, inc.]

JA: I’m surprised, because Vince certainly never made a comment like that to me. Maybe he changed his mind over the years?

JA: And you weren’t the only one to do it. How did the idea of using Timely staffers in the stories get started? JAFFEE: I think it’s akin to what you said a moment ago: we were lending a human face to these stories. We were working on this stuff anonymously. We weren’t getting a big byline like Rube Goldberg or Milton Caniff. We weren’t allowed to sign the stories, because they were afraid we’d try to claim proprietorship of the features. So we’d sneak in things to show friends and relatives that we did this work. We’d personalize it a little bit here or there. I do remember that I signed “Squat Car Squad,” but after a while, the policies changed. No one ever told me to quit signing the work, but you’d get into a gray area at times. For example, I took over “Patsy Walker,” and felt somewhat embarrassed to sign my name to it because I didn’t create it. Nowadays, everyone gets a credit from the writer on down to the letterers and colorists. By the way, a number of years ago, Stan Goldberg came over to me and asked if I had any of my Patsy Walker comics. I told him I didn’t. Stan said, “Well, I’m going to give you a batch of them and I’ll tell you why. I’ve read and reread the stories you did, and I got so many story ideas from them.” Now, I don’t mean that he was copying my stuff; what he was saying was that by reading a Patsy Walker he got ideas for stories of his own. I did the same thing. I listened to the teenage radio shows, and they’d give me an idea of an area to do a story. Naturally, I couldn’t copy a radio show in a five-page comic book story, but it gave me a place to go. That’s what Stan was saying, and I thought it was a great compliment to me. Getting back to your question about signing our work at Timely, I personally would have been reluctant to sign something I didn’t create. “Ziggy Pig and Silly Seal” was signed because I created it, and Stan Lee didn’t have any objection. But when lawsuits began to crop up, like Siegel and Shuster with Superman, I think the word must have come down from somewhere to drop the bylines. Look, they didn’t have to

While serving as Timely’s editor-in-chief during Stan Lee’s stint in uniform during WWII, Vince Fago continued to draw such features as “Posty and Lolly.” Posty the Pelican was a postman. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Al Jaffee

“That Terrible Al Sulman!”

JAFFEE: I don’t know. That’s what Dave reported to me. Vince did humor, I did humor, but there is a vast difference between one JA: What do you remember about Al humorist’s approach to humor and another’s. Sulman? He seems to have had a variety of Vince might have seen my work as unsuitable to jobs at Timely. He wrote and edited comics humor. Vince did “Posty the Pelican Postman” and magazines, and watched over the and a bunch of other features, like “Super bullpen a little bit. Rabbit,” which I eventually took over. Vince worked in the Chad JAFFEE: I think he was all of Al Sulman (caricature at top from Stan Lee’s Secrets behind the Comics, where Grothkopf style, and he had it those things, but primarily I think else?) was listed as associate editor of Captain America in the late 1940s—so nailed down pretty well. he was an editor. You must while Al Jaffee is relating all the tricks the bullpen played on Al S. back then, remember that Stan Lee was the we’ll seize the moment to spotlight the covers of C.A. #68-70 (Sept., Nov. ’48 & JA: Dave Gantz told me that a Jan. ’49) , after Cap had traded in Bucky for Golden Girl. Sulman must’ve had supreme editor, and that any other lot of guys were working in the his hands full trying to keep up with shifting genres on the now-bimonthly editor that we talk about, Grothkopf style. comic, ’cause #68’s cover tried to hop onto Charlie Biro’s Crime Does Not Pay including me, was a sub-editor. bandwagon; #69’s is early quasi-horror; and #70’s had a science-fiction feel! We had to produce what Stan Lee JAFFEE: Yes. Stan was very In #74, in the retitled Captain America’s Weird Tales, he’d fight The Red Skull in told us to produce. The enamored of Chad’s style of hell itself—and in #75 he’d become a mere narrator in his own mag—after outstanding aspect of Al Sulman which it would be cancelled for four years. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] inking, which was a very severe was that he was totally devoid of thick-and-thin line contrast. An a sense of humor. We had fun inkline went from a hairline to a sixteenth of an inch, to an eighth of an with him because we sailed over his head. I don’t know anything about inch thickness. It was a strange style. I practiced it, too, but I wasn’t very his personal life, except from things that I could glean from the office... good at it. I tried my best. but I had the feeling he lived a very solitary existence. He certainly was quite able in the work that he did, though I never worked for him. He JA: Did Stan have an assistant editor in the pre-war years? was also a writer and wrote for the magazine department, as well as any JAFFEE: I don’t recall anyone, but I think Vince was one before he editorial duties that he had. Didn’t he have something to do with the took over from Stan. Since I wasn’t on staff, I didn’t have much of an adventure books? idea of the makeup of the office. I’d go to the office, drop off a story and JA: Yes, but it’s hard to nail down, because he seems to have had a get another one, pick up a check and go home. Sometimes, I’d make hand in everything at one time or another. I’ve seen him listed as the arrangements to go to lunch with the staffers. associate editor of Captain America in the late 1940s. JA: This is a little off the subject, but I noticed that you’ve listed Art JAFFEE: He had no sense of humor, so he couldn’t do teenage or Helfant as an influence. I also know that Helfant was doing work for comedy books. He was singularly inappropriate in his remarks. He’d Timely around the time you started, but that’s the extent of my make an observation that was incomprehensible, because it wasn’t knowledge. Tell me about him. connected to anything that was going on. I don’t think he was a big JAFFEE: Art Helfant was the cartoonist I saw when I was a kid. He’d figure there, but he strutted around as if he was part of management. have work in magazines and newspapers, and he amused me. Later on, That may be where you got the notion that he was an overseer. I think when I became more experienced, I looked back at his stuff and realized he was, in his own mind. The rest of us totally disregarded him, and he it was somewhat primitive. I never met him, though. was of no importance whatever to the humor comics. We did play terrible practical jokes on him.

“It Was A Fun Time!” I’ll tell this one story. Sulman had the office next to us, and we were separated by a steel partition. At night after he left the office... we pretended to be working late... we drilled a quarter-inch hole through the partition. When I went home, I got a jar and soldered two little tubes through the cover of the jar. I brought that in to the office, and Mike Sekowsky went out and bought a pound of Limburger cheese. Somebody else went to the local hardware shop and bought thirty feet of quarter-inch rubber hose. We stuck it on one nipple of the jar, now filled with Limburger cheese, and we led the other tube out through the hole and under Sulman’s desk. We put the jar on the radiator, which was so hot that you couldn’t touch it. The cheese was bubbling. Now, on the other nipple of the jar, we put a piece of hose that went into a tire pump. Every now and then, we’d give it a few shots, and sit back and work. This went on for about an hour. Finally, an assistant of Sulman’s, whose name was Judy, came walking into our room and... I kid you not, this is the first several words that she said: “That terrible Al Sulman!” Mike Sekowsky said, “Why, Judy? What’s the matter?” She said, “Well, his personal habits... I don’t want to go into it, but you can’t breathe in there.” We did this for quite a while! And we’d switch. After using the Limburger for a while, we cleaned out the jar, went to the five-and-tencents store and bought the cheapest perfume we could find. We filled the jar with that, and pumped a few shots into the room. Joanne, who was working in there from time to time, came into our room and said, “That terrible Al Sulman! He perfumes himself.” Alfred Williams was a freelance artist who worked for Al Sulman. He came into the room the same time we pumped that cheap perfume in there. Joanne accused Alfred Williams of using woman’s perfume. Now, throughout this, we never heard from Al Sulman. What was he? Dead? We heard from everyone who worked in that office, but him! To this day, I don’t think any of us knows if Al Sulman suspected anybody. He might have suspected the two girls, but he never said anything.

the notion to drill a hole through Winiarski’s wooden table top and put the tube underneath, through the hole, level with the table top. Now, most of us smoked at that time; Mike Sekowsky didn’t smoke, but I did, though I was sitting about 25 feet away in the corner. Mike started an argument with Winiarski about his smoking. Mike was very devious in these arguments, and he brought it around to where he said, “Wini, you’re a danger to us all. You’re a chain smoker, and one of these days, you’re going to set yourself and this whole damn place on fire.” While he’s saying that, I’m blowing smoke through this tube and the smoke is coming out of all sides of the page on his table. Suddenly, Winiarski jumps up, grabs the page, and goes nuts! It made life bearable in the old bullpen. Some of the things we did were so elaborate that you wouldn’t believe them. There was a guy there named Bill “Pogy” Walton, who had been Dale Messick’s assistant on Brenda Starr. He smoked cigars and they smelled. Mike Sekowsky used to complain about it all the time. We rigged up a pulley system on the ceiling in a way that, with a tin can attached, if you pulled the pulley, it’d tip the tin can. The whole art of it was to wait until Pogy was under this tin can and for Mike to get into an argument with him. Mike said, “That cigar stinks. If you don’t put it out, I’m going to put it out.” Pogy said, “You and what Russian Army?” Then I pulled the string and water fell down on Pogy’s cigar and out it went. JA: [laughter] How’d you have time to think up this stuff? JAFFEE: Oh, we’d stay after work and rig these things up. We put a lot of time into these elaborate devices. But everyone was so good-natured

You know, a lot of things were going on in there. A person we’ll call “Gogh” was the recipient of a practical joke once. He used to do a lot of silhouettes in his work. He was working on a humor story, and while he was out to lunch, Mike Sekowsky went over his pages and added penises to the penciled silhouettes. We always had intramural arguments, and Mike used to say, “Gogh doesn’t even know what work he’s working on. He’s a robot.” So, when Gogh came back in the office, Mike started up this argument again. Mike said, “Gogh’ll ink anything.” Gogh shot back, “Inking is not mechanical, and it’s not robotic. There’s style to inking, and the inker has to put a lot of thought into what he’s doing, because some of the penciling is so vague and ill defined, that if the inker inked the lines as they are, they’d be terrible.” Gogh was saying this all the while he was inking. When he finished the job and turned it in, he got a reaction to the fact that all the silhouettes had penises sticking out. [mutual laughter] He had automatically inked them in! That was one of our lighter moments. They did things like that to me, too. Everybody got a little bit of it, because things got boring after a while, and you had to do something. Another story I remember was with Ed Winiarski. We still had that crazy jar and the tubes left over from tormenting Al Sulman. Mike and I were really the perpetrators. Mike had fiendish ideas, and I always had a leaning towards invention, so we worked pretty well together. We got

Ed Winiarski, seen in a caricature from one of the Timely humor comics he drew, also did “The Vagabond” in early issues of U.S.A. Comics. Thanks to Jim Vadeboncoeur, Jr., for the caricature. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Al Jaffee JA: Did you do some comic work while in the service? JAFFEE: I did some. I think I did it for Stan. JA: Stan came back sometime in the summer or early fall of 1945, as far as I can figure. JAFFEE: I think during the last six months of my time in the service was when I did that work. I remember doing “Waldo and Ferdie,” and maybe some other things, too. I‘m sure I didn’t do any of it for Vince. JA: Dave Gantz told me he’d been offered the editor’s job and turned it down. Dave Berg edited for a little less than a year, and he told me that he hated it.

(Left:) Ernie Hart was the first artist (and probably writer) of “Super Rabbit,” a.k.a. shoeshine “boy” Waffles Rabbit, whose origin was told in this tale from Comedy Comics #14 (March 1943). (Right:) Al Jaffee’s splash for Super Rabbit #8 (Fall 1946). Thanks to Doc Vassallo for both scans. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

about it. Pogy got a good laugh out of it; he gave as good as he got. And inker Murray Postel was always available. He was great fun and a sweet guy.

“Us against Them” JA: What do you remember about Ernie Hart? JAFFEE: Ernie was a very lively guy; very funny and fun to be with. He was an editor with Don Rico, and the two of them shared an office. Both men could write and draw, though I don’t know if Don wrote much. Ernie did humor work and Don did adventure features. I know that Ernie and Don edited certain titles. This was all post-World War II. One day, Stan called me in and said, “I want you to edit the teenage books.” That may have been because Ernie left the company, because I don’t recall Ernie editing anything but teenage and humor. JA: Do you have any idea how long Hart and Rico edited? JAFFEE: No, because I don’t know what was going on, prior to the end of the war. I don’t know if they were in the war. If they didn’t go into the service, they could have been editors during the war. The late Dave Berg at the turn of the 21st century—and his splash for a filler sciencefiction story in Venus #13 (April 1951), repro’d from photocopies of the original art. Think Dave modeled that “managing editor” on himself? Dave, of course, went on from the Timely bullpen to become a very popular writer/artist at Mad with his “The Lighter Side of…” series; an interview with him conducted by Jim Amash shortly before his untimely recent death will appear in an early issue of Alter Ego. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

JAFFEE: I didn’t know that about Dave Gantz. Dave Berg was an editor, but he had a very vulnerable personality and we tortured him. I came to his defense, because we had

“It Was A Fun Time!”

and see what we do.” That’s how Bob got started. He was a gofer, but he worked very hard at drawing and cartooning, and practiced all the time. Finally, Stan Lee let him do a page here and page there, and eventually he became a staff artist. That’s how a lot of people get their starts in life. Bob and I were good friends all the time he lived in New York. He was the one who proposed me for membership in the Society of Illustrators. Bob was seventeen when he started at Timely and instantly fell into the group with Sekowsky, Shores, Pogy, and the rest. We had a good group in that room, and after work on Fridays, we’d all go out and drink. Bob could drink 19 martinis in a row; I don’t know how he could do it, but so could Sekowsky.

Bob Deschamps—who started out as a gofer at Timely, later pursued careers in comics and commercial art, and was interviewed in A/E #20— plus a Crackerjack ad he drew during his years in advertising. Photo courtesy of Bob. [Ad art ©2004 the respective copyright holders.]

Pogy Walton was a very intriguing guy with a very good sense of humor. He contributed a lot to the general hilarity of the room, in torturing other people, I might add. JA: We should say here that you mean “torture” in a sarcastic, humorous way.

started together at Eisner’s studio and became friends. In fact, our families got together on weekends during the summer months. Of course, the guys made fun of me since I took up for Dave, and accused me of sucking up to him because he’d become an editor. But I could handle it because I didn’t have a vulnerable personality like Dave did. Dave would get so upset and took it hard. JA: I think it bothered him all his life. When I interviewed him, I could tell it upset him to recall those times, and he really didn’t want to discuss it. JAFFEE: I think the guys drove him out of that job. Dave’s problem was that he was sensitive, and when you’re around a bunch of satirical type of artists, things get said. No one jumped on Dave. What we did was play practical jokes, which we did to everyone. It’s just that Dave couldn’t deal with it. The other editors would just say, “Knock it off,” but Dave couldn’t do that. JA: Bob Deschamps told me that, too. He was there. Do you remember Bob? JAFFEE: Oh, sure. Bob started out as an office boy. In fact, when I got out of the service, my wife and I were waiting for our house to be completed. We needed a place to stay until we could get into the house, and Gary Keller, who was the head of the lettering department at Timely, offered to rent us a room in his house. Gary’s house happened to be next door to the Deschamps’ house. Bob Deschamps’ father brought him over to meet me for advice on how to get into the cartooning business. And I couldn’t give him any advice, because I had just gotten out of the service and was out of touch with everyone. I said, “Gary Keller should bring him up to Timely Comics and see if he can get Bob any kind of job, so he can hang around

JAFFEE: Right. From time immemorial, one group or tribe will always set itself up in competition with another tribe. Our room was our room. The other room was for editors, and another room was for underwear artists like Syd Shores, Vince Alascia, and all those guys. Our room developed a persona of its own; Bill Walton, Ed Winiarski, Bob Deschamps, Murray Postel, Sekowsky, Gantz, Chris Rule, and I were all in it together. The unwritten rule was that it was “us against them.” And we would play practical jokes on each other and on the editors. Any new guy in the bullpen would get some initial teasing to find out what he was like. It happened to Murray Postel and Bill Walton, too. We didn’t attack guys; nobody did. We’d start talking, and if you found out a guy had weird notions about things, you’d tease him about it. That’s why Dave Berg got teased, because he was so super-moralistic. Morality is a very personal thing, and when someone spouts morality, he’s going to get it. That’s what happened. JA: Would a new guy get taken under the wing of the older guys? JAFFEE: They usually would, especially if a new guy asked for help. Bob Deschamps did. He fell right in with Dave Gantz, Mike Sekowsky, and the others. They all had a good time together and helped him learn. Any questions he asked got straight answers. We didn’t hold back on anything. JA: Was Bill Walton one of the teenage artists? JAFFEE: I don’t remember. We were all called on to do different things. Stan Lee would come marching in and say, “Jaffee, I want you to do Super Rabbit.” He’d hand me a script and I’d draw it, and then later on, Stan would have me write and draw the feature. One day, Mike Sekowsky would draw Millie the Model, and the next day he was drawing Human Torch. You never really knew what other people were doing on a day-to-day basis.

“There Were as Lot of Eyes on Us” Two more caricatures from Stan Lee’s 1947 tome Secrets behind the Comics. Dave Berg drew the one of interviewee Al Jaffee—but that of Kin Platt, in a radically different style, may be by Platt himself. Alas, Mr. Platt has turned down our requests for an interview—so he’ll just have to be content with other people talking about him! Fortunately, they have mostly good things to say. [©2004 Stan Lee.]

JA: I’d like to get your memories of a few more co-workers. Starting with Mario Acquaviva. JAFFEE: I didn’t know him that well. I can see his face as it was then. He was just a very

Al Jaffee JA: Art Gates. JAFFEE: I remember that he had red hair and was a gag cartoonist. I don’t know anything about his Timely work, but I remember him being at the Herald-Tribune later on. He also did cartoons for The Saturday Evening Post and Collier’s. I think he was stronger in that area than he was in comic books. JA: Chris Rule.

“Chris Rule did a very nice ‘Patsy Walker,’ and it was surprising to me that Stan Lee wanted me to take it over,” says Al. At left is Rule’s cover for Patsy Walker #32 (Jan. 1951)—at right, a Jaffee splash from PW #43 (Nov. 1952). Thanks to Doc V., who else? [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

sweet, gentle guy; always with a big, broad smile, and greeting. I remember him as a letterer, but I suspect he was trying to become an inker, though I don’t know how far he got with that. Lettering didn’t pay too well, so he was trying to make more money as an inker. [NOTE: Several people have said Acquaviva was an inker, so it looks as though he made it! —Jim.] JA: Helen Bennett. JAFFEE: She was Al Sulman’s assistant in the magazine department, but I think she was involved in comics, too. JA: So when Sulman was involved in comics, she was, too. She was sort of like Sulman’s right-hand woman? JAFFEE: Yeah, I think so. She wore eyeglasses, and was very friendly with the people in our room. A nice gal. JA: Kin Platt. JAFFEE: I knew Kin. Dave Gantz said that Kin created the “Pepsi Cola Cops.” I didn’t know Kin had done that, but it was his style. That may have been what brought him to Stan Lee. Kin sort-of looked like Groucho Marx, and had both Groucho’s sense of humor and delivery; a very funny guy. He wrote very well and did so in a lot of mediums. He was one of the truly gifted guys in our business, very smart and very talented. Whenever he came into the office, things got lively. I also remember getting together with Kin and his wife in Long Island after the war. I don’t doubt that Kin created “Squat Car Squad,” since it’d been something he was familiar with. JA: What do you remember about Frank Carin? JAFFEE: He was in the office, but at this stage, it’s hard to remember what all he worked on. He did teenage and humor work, like “Mighty Mouse.” I didn’t get to know him socially.

JAFFEE: I remember that Chris Rule was a bon vivant, a raconteur, and a man about town. He had a flair and was very, very witty. He was “in the know” and circulated amongst the cognoscenti and was part of the society crowd in New York, and always had marvelous stories to tell. My sense of his art was that it was more suited towards illustration, particularly fashion illustration, which he had done. Chris certainly knew better than anyone else at Timely about putting women into clothing that had credibility. I used to draw the same dress over and over again. I wouldn’t know one dress from another, but fortunately Stan Lee got me to ask readers to submit clothing designs. I took them and showed them to my wife, and she’d pick out the best ones. But Chris could make up high-style fashion on his own. I remember Chris was the first one to come in, quoting from a book of Fractured French, which was amusing. I think he spoke French and regaled us with things like “ma petite chose,” which meant “Your fly is open.” Chris did a very nice “Patsy Walker,” and it was surprising to me that Stan Lee wanted me to take it over. But one of Stan Lee’s greatest assets was problem-solving, and there was a problem of getting someone to write scripts on time so Chris Rule could get the scripts on time. They’d be late and Chris would complain... that kind of thing. The more people you have involved in a project, the more problems you’re going to have. Stan solved that problem by giving “Patsy Walker” to me. I don’t think Chris was very happy about that; he was kind of miffed at me and was cool. I don’t blame anybody resenting someone who takes over something they’re working on, but eventually you have to ask yourself, “Did Al Jaffee go to Stan Lee and say ‘Take this away from Chris Rule and give it to me’? Or did Stan Lee do that?” JA: What do you remember about Ken Bald? JAFFEE: Vic Dowd was Ken’s brother-in-law. Vic and Ken were like twins to me, in their style and appearance. They were socially involved with Stan and Joan Lee. I didn’t know Vic nor Ken that well. They were both very fine comic book artists and I think they were trained as illustrators. They had that flair, like Stan Drake. These were the sort of

“It Was A Fun Time!” beautiful people that Stan Lee associated with. He passed around photostatted copies of Stan Drake’s work, and it just blew us all away. That work was beautiful, and Stan Drake was one of the greatest cartoon illustrators. Stan Lee told us to measure up to him. If you could do that, you wouldn’t need Stan Lee! Stan Drake did a lot of romance work for Stan Lee. Neither Drake nor Dowd nor Ken Bald worked on staff. I didn’t get to know the freelancers that well. JA: What else do you remember about him Gary Keller? JAFFEE: In addition to being head of the lettering department, I think he also had an assignment from management to keep an eye on us. There were a lot of eyes on us, though some of that may have been a product of our paranoid imaginations. When people like him came into the bullpen, we wondered what they were doing there. There was a feeling among us that Gary was reporting to the higher-ups as to who was goofing off or who was doing this or that. I don’t have any hard evidence that he was doing that; it was just the impression we had. Gary was substantially older than most of us. He and his wife were really survivors of the Depression, and he was a talented guy. If anything, he should have been a mechanical engineer. I saw some of his mechanical engineering, and he was brilliant. But fate throws us into strange occupations during hard times. Gary told

me that he had been a traveler. He’d go from town to town, go into a diner, and for a meal, he’d do their showcase lettering. He was an excellent showcase letterer, which was a specialty in those days, but probably unheard-of now with the advent of computers. So he’d get a free meal by doing this work. He rode the rails and came back and married a woman named Helen. Towards the end of the war, they bought a house, which he fixed up a great deal.

“I Didn’t Spend Much Time in the Adventure Room” JA: You were at Timely when Harvey Kurtzman started freelancing. JAFFEE: Yes. Harvey came in and started doing a feature called “Hey Look!,” which all of us admired. Every time he delivered a page, the entire office would come over and look at it. We all recognized that there was a unique talent at work. As creative people, we all appreciated it. Harvey was ahead of his time and his work was vastly different from the run of the mill stuff. Stan Lee liked Harvey and admired his talent. He tried to get Harvey to work for Timely, but Harvey’s work was so unique that Stan tried to do what other publishers would do with someone like him: get him to work on somebody else’s creations. He wanted Harvey to do a take-off of Blondie, though I don’t recall what the title of this feature was. [See next page.] Harvey tried to create a new feature for Stan Lee. I know he was

In summer of 1970 Al Jaffee took the above snapshot poolside at Gil Kane’s home in Connecticut. That’s Harvey Kurtzman leaning against the wall, and Roy “The Boy” Thomas at left, musing on Woody Allen’s line about being out in the sun: “I don’t tan—I stroke!” Ye Editor met both Kurtzman and Jaffee that memorable day… and was so much in awe of the creator of Mad that he kept calling him “Mr. Kurtzman,” till finally HK looked down at him with an eagle eye and said sternly, “You may call me ‘Mr. Kurtzman SIR’!” From that time on, it was “Harvey.” But the awe always remained. Al’s quite an impressive guy, too, come to that! (Below:) Splash pages of Kurtzman’s “Muscles Malone” from Krazy Komics Vol. 2, #1 (Aug. 1948) and “Pigtales” from Comedy Comics #33 (Aug. 1946), both courtesy of Doc V.—and the cover to Kitchen Sink’s wonderful 1992 hardcover collection of all Kurtzman’s “Hey Look!” strips (plus “Potshot Pete”). Both these features became far better known after being reprinted in the early Mad comic book—though it’s not known how Kurtzman obtained the rights to these features from the publishers of Timely and Toby Press, who generally claimed all rights to work done for them. [“Hey Look!” art ©2004 Adele Kurtzman; other art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Al Jaffee

breaking his back trying to imitate Blondie and come up with characters that looked like Blondie and Dagwood, only a little different so they wouldn’t get sued. That’s one thing that Harvey couldn’t and didn’t want to do. He couldn’t work outside of his style. I think he tried it, but it didn’t work out, and he went on to other things. JA: In between the time you went to school with Harvey and when he came to Timely, you were pretty much out of touch with him, weren’t you? pizzazz. She was an editor. She had a very impressive style of voice and all that, and apparently knew her onions. She sort-of reigned over that area. That’s all I know about her, because I didn’t spend much time in the adventure room, but whenever I walked in, Dorothy was holding forth with a writer or an artist, and was very commanding. I think she was there in 1946 and she left Timely before I did, maybe in ’48 or ’49, but that’s a ballpark figure.

JAFFEE: Right. My brother Harry had more contact with Harvey than I did, socially and otherwise. I didn’t get to know him that well in school because he was two years behind me. We didn’t have any classes together. Because Willy Elder and I were older than Harvey, he looked up to us. I remember that Harvey formed a studio called the William Charles Harvey studio. Harvey, Elder, and Charles Stern did comics, illustration, and whatever work they could get. Dave Berg was in that studio, too. JA: Did you ever meet Basil Wolverton? JAFFEE: I think I met him once, but in a fleeting way. He might have come into the office and I briefly met him. That’s about it.

JA: Didn’t Harold Straubling do some editing, too? JAFFEE: Yes, but I can’t remember whether he edited humor or adventure. Harold had an obsession. He was in the Army and grew to really hate officers. If anyone came in to him, he’d ask them if they were in the service. He’d ask, “What did you do? What rank did you have?” If they said something like, “Well, I was a captain in the Marines,” that guy was through. He wouldn’t get anything from Harold. We kind-of made a joke out of it, because most of us who were in the service had the same feelings about officers. The officers were taught to treat us like dirt, and we were taught to respect and salute them. People who have grown up in democracy didn’t take too well to that, especially in a citizen Army. There was a deep-seated gulf between officers and enlisted men.

Kurtzman reportedly hated drawing the 1949 comic Rusty and Her Friends. Seen here are a page from #21 (July ’49) and his cover for #22 (Sept.) Actually, these were the only two issues of the Blondiewannabe incarnation of the mag, which previously had been a teenage comic called simply Rusty. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

JA: I know Vince Alascia was not in the humor room, but did you get to know him? JAFFEE: Vince was Syd Shores’ inker and stayed in the room with the adventure artists. Mike Sekowsky would make fun of Vince because he was a very nervous guy. Vince would come in with one catastrophe or another. Mike labeled him as “Joe Btfsplk,” after the character in Li’l Abner who walked around with a little black cloud over his head. Vince had twins, and something was always happening to them or his house. One of his twins might have been dropped on his head or fallen out the window, or the electricity was shut off, or their plumbing broke down. Every day, he came in with another horror story. That’s how he got that nickname. Mike Sekowsky had long blond hair, and Vince Alascia questioned Mike’s masculinity to someone. Mike walked up to Vince and said, “Well, you’re a homo sapien!” Vince said, “Well, it takes one to know one!” [mutual laughter] That was one of the funniest incidents. JA: I know some people who’d answer, “I am not!” Okay, do you remember Al Avison? JAFFEE: Yes. He was an adventure artist, but I didn’t know him. I know he was considered to be a very good artist. I do remember one person in that room: Dorothy Roubicek, who became Dorothy Woolfolk. She was a large, boisterous gal, full of

But Straubling took it to the point where we were really uncomfortable with the way he was treating these people. We were back in civilian life, and who knows? The officer might have been a nice guy and loved by his men. You can’t make a blanket decision like that, but he did. I didn’t have much to do with him, so I can’t tell you much more. He left Timely and went to the New York Herald-Tribune. JA: Did you get to know Syd Shores? JAFFEE: No. He was in the adventure room with the others. He was a very quiet guy. Every now and then there’d be a friendly argument between him and Vince Alascia about whose work was more important in the comic business: the adventure artists or the humor artists. We had intramural arguments like that, and they wound up being rather ridiculous. But it was mostly tongue-in-cheek; it really didn’t matter to anybody. We’d make up things, like “Adventure artists do the same things and use the same five poses over and over again.” That sort of thing. It was just a lot of ribbing.

“It Was A Fun Time!”

“We Were Producing Monthly Books to Pay the Rent” JA: Chic Stone worked for you, didn’t he? JAFFEE: Yeah. He did teenage work for me. I liked Chic, and he was a very facile artist. He did a terrific job on every assignment I gave him. I would occasionally meet him on a social basis with Sol Brodsky and Fred Ottenheimer. At one time or another, we all had studios and would go visit each other. There was a time when Chic, Sol, and Fred shared a studio. The last time I saw Chic was at Christie’s when they were auctioning off Chris Gaines’ memorabilia. I was there, signing copies of my fold-in book, which I was invited to do. A guy walked up to me with a beard and moustache and said something like, “I’ll give you a million bucks if you guess who I am.” I said, “I’m sorry. I really can’t.” He said, “Do you remember Chic Stone?” I was very happy to see him again. There was a very friendly group at Timely in the humor/teenage department. With all that fuzz on his face, I couldn’t recognize him. People have told me that they always recognize me because of my self-caricatures in Mad. He was a very quiet man at Timely, so I was sort-of surprised when he came up to me, but we all change as we grow older. JA: Violet Barclay, who now goes by the name Valerie. JAFFEE: She was Mike Sekowsky’s heartthrob. I knew her and may have even assigned work to her, but it was a limited acquaintance. JA: Jim Mooney. JAFFEE: I didn’t know much about Jim when he was working at Timely. I knew he was a good friend of Stan Lee’s, socially. I had more to do with Jim Mooney at a comicon when we sat together than I did when we were at Timely. JA: Leon Winick. JAFFEE: I did some freelance penciling for him after Timely. He had a lot of accounts, a lot of westerns. He was a very personable guy. I wasn’t

crazy about his artwork. I didn’t think he could draw very well, but we had a social relationship, too. He’d have stag parties at his apartment and all the guys would go there. I think I may have given him some teenage work to do, but it’s vague in my mind. I don’t think we had a long relationship at Timely. JA: George Klein. JAFFEE: George was a very laid-back kind of guy. A meticulous inker. He had a very dry sense of humor; we all liked and respected him. He was not talkative—sort-of like Gary Cooper. He just said a few words here and there. JA: You guys used him a lot when you were doing caricatures in the humor comics. Every time there was a horse, it looked like George Klein, no matter who the artist was. JAFFEE: That’s true, although I didn’t do that. Mike Sekowsky started that, and then everybody did it. George did have that kind of look to him. If you saw a picture of him smiling, you’d swear it was a horse. [laughs] JA: Lin Streeter? JAFFEE: I remember him very well. He was one of our guys and a pretty good imbiber. When it came time to go to a bar after work, Mike and I and Lin, and whoever else wanted to go, would leave and belt a few down. I don’t remember what he drew, except for that it was teenage stuff. He was a very interesting man. He had great stories to tell and had great experiences. He was a little bit older than the rest of us and had been around, so he regaled us with some great stuff. Bob Brown was there, too. He was a very fine gentleman who had the bearing of a foreign diplomat. He was the quintessential equivalent of a super-WASP. He was a very nice man, intelligent, well-read, and a fine artist. I don’t usually go around bragging about people, but Bob Brown was such an imposing person in a passive sort of way. There was nothing flamboyant about him; he was just very impressive in his quietness.

(Clockwise:) A Sol Brodsky-drawn page from an sf filler in Venus #15 (Aug. 1951), repro’d from photocopies of the original art… a splash from Jeanie #13 (April ’47) penciled by Al Jaffee and inked by Violet/Valerie Barclay (so says Doc V., even if Al’s forgotten they ever worked together!)… and panels from Sun Girl #3 (Dec. 1948) probably drawn by Lin Streeter, as ID’d by Jim Amash, who provided the comic. See A/E #20 for the splash to the lead story from that issue of Sun Girl. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Al Jaffee interpret. There were a lot of writers who had no visual sense, and in descriptions they’d ask the artist to show all four sides of the room. The only way to do that is to get in a helicopter and fly above the room. I actually had to work on a script once with a basketball court and in one small, single panel, I had to show the opposing teams and their baskets. What the hell can you do with that? Artists who get scripts from writers who aren’t visual have to work very hard in order to get a reasonable layout. Dan and I had a very positive, favorable relationship with each other. JA: How often did you write scripts for other artists? JAFFEE: I did a fair amount of it. I wrote Jeanie scripts and, well, we had so many titles that I can’t remember all the features I wrote. I can’t say that I wrote a lot of them, because I was so busy writing and drawing my own stories. I remember writing quite a few things for Dan DeCarlo, and when I was an editor, there’d be times during the day when I wasn’t editing or writing and drawing my own stuff.

“A Few Letterers’ Names” JA: I’d like to throw a few letterers’ names your way. Like Artie Simek. JAFFEE: I knew Artie very well. He was the letterer and was there forever. All of us were very fond of Artie, but he seemed like a hillbilly. He had a way of speaking that made him seem like he wasn’t very bright, but he was a lot smarter than any of us gave him credit for. He spoke very haltingly and laughed in the wrong places, but that doesn’t mean he was dumb. He became the lead letterer there and had a very fine career at Timely and, later, Marvel. What about Gerda Gattel?

An early-1950s Timely house ad for its “career girl” comics. Doc V. tells us the cameos of Millie the Model and My Friend Irma are by DeCarlo, Patsy Walker is by Morris Weiss, and Hedy “looks like Ed Winiarski.” Mopsy, a character licensed from the newspaper strip, is probably by creator Gladys Parker. Thanks to Michael Baulderstone for the b&w ad from an Australian reprint. [Art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

JA: What do you remember about Dan DeCarlo? JAFFEE: Dan liked working on my scripts and told me so. The main reason was that I gave him the scripts as layouts. There are two good reasons to be in the comic book business. The main reason is to do good, creative work, and the other is to make money. We weren’t producing work to be hung in museums; we were producing monthly books to pay the rent. But you also wanted to be doing things you liked doing. When I gave a script to Dan DeCarlo, like, say, an eight-page teenage script... and it was always teenage stuff that he did… I told him he was the best, and he was the best. I’d write a story and do quick sketches for every panel, so you’d know where everyone was standing, and whether or not I wanted a close up or a long shot. But Dan had total freedom to change anything he wanted. All of us enjoy a good layout because it saves us a tremendous amount of time. Dan would do a story, come back to me and say, “It was a breeze. I just followed your layout. Keep giving me those.” This is important, not because my layouts or artwork was brilliant, but sometimes you were handed a script that was virtually impossible to

JA: I don’t know much about her, except that she was in production, and after Timely let everyone go in 1957, she went over to DC Comics and had a long career there. JAFFEE: That’s right. I think she took over as head of the lettering department after Gary Keller left. I think she had some editorial duties, not to edit scripts, but as a traffic manager. In the 1950s, I brought in my “Patsy Walker” work to her when either Stan or his assistant Bonnie Hano wasn’t available. I think she retired as a traffic manager when she left DC. I was very friendly with Gerda. She had survived the Holocaust. She was one of the children who was lucky enough to be accepted by Great Britain during the Kinder Transport of Jewish children over to London, right before they stopped it. She wound up in London and was a little bit older than us, so she regaled us with stories about being in London during the Blitz. Then she came over here. I don’t know of any other way to say this, but she was a hunchback, but still a very attractive woman. She was a very good letterer.

This shadowed photo of former Timely staffer and longtime DC proofreader Gerda Gattel with even-longer-time Superman editor Mort Weisinger appeared in The Amazing World of DC Comics, Vol. 2, #7 (July-Aug. 1975). Thanks to Carl Gafford for pointing us to it. [©2004 the respective copyright holders.]

JA: Stan Goldberg told me that, in the 1950s, Artie Simek was handing out lettering assignments. Do you remember when Gary Keller left Timely? JAFFEE: No. I know Gerda took over, and then Artie took over, when Gerda

“It Was A Fun Time!”

violinist’s career going, playing chamber music.

was moved up to traffic manager. I wasn’t there often enough in the 1950s to see how things were changing in the offices.

JA: That’s something, because you really have to have a certain dexterity to play the violin. You just don’t pick that up later in life.

JA: Fred Eng lettered there for a long time.

JAFFEE: Well, he showed that dexterity in his inking ability. He inked drawings that I made, which were an eighth of an inch tall, and he could put the eyebrows in those figures. He could ink with a one-haired brush! He just had a tremendous inking facility, and he worked in colors and could do that there, too. He was a fine illustrator, more in the design area of it. But he never inked my comic book work.

JAFFEE: Yes, he did. I got to know him much, much later at the National Cartoonists Society. I didn’t know him at Timely. There was another letterer there, who was Chinese. His name was Hung and he was a kite-maker. He was trying to sell super-hero kites. He was very clever.

JA: Was all the lettering and coloring done on staff?

JA: Morrie Kuramoto.

JAFFEE: Yes. They did have some people letter at home. When I was an editor, we had so much work to get out that everybody took work home on nights and weekends. Someone like Artie Simek would go home and letter 25 pages over the weekend for a freelance rate. We all did it.

JAFFEE: He was a staffer when I was there. JA: Hoy Leung was there, too, right? JAFFEE: All I knew about him was that he was a dear, sweet man, thin as a rail. We discovered that he had very serious ulcers and had to have surgery for them. He was very quiet, and just sat there and lettered.

“There Was So Much Going On at Timely” JA: There were a lot of Asian people working there.

JA: When you took freelance work home, you were paid by the page. Would that page rate be higher than if you’d done it on company time?

“Adele Kurtzman was a big fan of my “Super Rabbit” at the time,” remembers Al. So she probably got a kick out of his cover for Super Rabbit #11 (1947?) provided and ID’d by Doc Vassallo. But we’ve always kinda wondered what DC Comics thought of Super Rabbit—not to mention Archie’s Super Duck, Four Star’s Super Cat, Standard’s Supermouse, or even Continental’s Supersnipe or Toby’s super-powered “Dennis the Menace” wannabe Super Brat!? [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

JAFFEE: There were. There was a period when I wound up in another room. One of the people in that room was the fellow named Hung, and a Chinese girl was there, who was engaged to an Israeli. What a combination! She lettered, too. Adele Kurtzman was in that room, as a proofreader. There were one or two other people there, like Gerda and Sol Brodsky, I believe. We had a great time. Adele was a big fan of my Super Rabbit at the time. There were a substantial number of women working there, too. Stan Lee was very open-minded about whom he hired. Other people might have preferred an old-boys’ club to go out drinking and cursing with, but Stan Lee wasn’t that type. He was a non-drinker, didn’t smoke, and I never heard him use foul language. He was a pretty straight guy. As for Sol Brodsky, we were kindred spirits and always had a very warm relationship at Timely. I don’t recall what he was doing at Timely while we were in that room, but I think he was doing teenage stuff and humor, too. I think he was writing and drawing stuff. And there was Fred Ottenheimer. Fred was an inker, and I believe he was on staff, but I can’t be sure of that. After we were all let go at Timely, we tried to get together and do some stuff on a children’s book, but it didn’t pan out. Years and years later, I looked Fred up and took him out to lunch at the Society of Illustrators. He had developed a very successful design studio and was packaging all kinds of children’s books and advertising. I saw that he had become very successful and I was happy for him. His childhood passion was to be a violinist, and at that juncture, which was about fifteen years ago, he had a successful

JAFFEE: When we were on staff, we were on salary. Whatever your salary was, would be what you get. I think the pencil rate for a page was $20, and fifteen for inks. Now, if you were Mike Sekowsky, who could pencil 25 pages over a weekend, you could make a lot of money. So if your salary’s $75 a week, that freelance work made a huge difference. I was making more money as a freelancer than I was as a staffer.

JA: That’s what I figured. I was wondering if the freelance page rate was higher than the staff rate, or was it just the fact that you were able to turn out a lot of pages? JAFFEE: It was just the fact that the salaries were so low. As a staff artist, my salary was a hundred dollars a week and I penciled 15 pages a week on staff, just taking my time to fill that quota. That was my page rate. Now, if I went home over the weekend and penciled 20 pages in two days, you can see how I did. I think that’s why they eventually changed the system and made us all freelancers, because the rate was so skewed. A guy like Syd Shores, who was a good artist, could work on a page for an entire day, so freelance for him was no great deal. For us humor people, it was a good deal. I’m sure Syd Shores made more per page than we did, though. That may not have been common knowledge. I’m sure some guys had special deals. JA: What do you remember about Al McLean? JAFFEE: I hired him. A very funny guy with a very funny cartoon style, though it was old-fashioned, similar to Jimmy Hatlo’s and Bob Dunn’s style [newspaper cartoonists on They’ll Do It Every Time]. I had a big problem with Al, who I don’t think is around anymore. He was much older than the rest of us. At first, I was delighted with his work because he brought a new style of funny inking with a pen, which was much different than the brush work our artists usually did. His thick-and-thin pen line was very attractive... lots of good blacks and it was very solid stuff. I put him on any comic material that had funny penciling. The problem we had with him was that, if he didn’t like what

Al Jaffee

We’ve run these caricatures from Stan Lee’s 1947 Secrets behind the Comics before, and we probably will again, ’cause what else’ve we got to show you what some of these bullpenners looked like? The boxes showcasing the names of the artists (and publisher Martin Goodman) were provided by Jim Vadeboncoeur, Jr. [©2004 Stan Lee.]

was in the penciling, he just drew something else. You know, the thing comes back and I’m looking at it, wondering, “Who the hell are these characters?” If the feature was Frankie, who was designed by Mike Sekowsky, the character had to look a certain way. We had a style at Timely. So Frankie’d be running around for the first couple of pages and Al McLean decided he was tired of doing Frankie, so he’d put in Grandma Moses. We had to let him go. He didn’t understand it when I explained it to him. I said, “You can’t get tired of what you’re working on and change it to something that you’d have more fun with.” He said, “Well, you want it to be funny, and this stuff is so boring that I couldn’t stand it.” So we went our separate ways. JA: Did Joe Giella ink for you? JAFFEE: I believe he did. He probably inked Mike Sekowsky and others. But that’s about all I know about Joe from that time. I was surprised when I found out he was drawing Mary Worth. I thought he was just an inker. JA: John Cuddy was inking there, too. JAFFEE: I think he was in the adventure department. I don’t think he worked for me. There was so much going on at Timely that we didn’t pay that much attention to what assignments the others were doing, whether they were in our room or not. We all had our assignments and we stuck to them.

tells wonderful jokes do that? He must be a jolly guy.” But that’s the trouble with manic-depressives. You don’t always know. Morris Weiss was doing his own feature; he wrote it, penciled and inked it, and even lettered it. He did tons of it and was very, very, very productive. He did entire comic books, like Margie, and some other things I don’t remember now. Morris had the same kind of arrangement with Stan that I did. Stan recognized that Morris could write and draw his own stuff, so he packaged his work for Timely. He’d come in every couple of weeks with a completed book. [NOTE: An interview with Morris Weiss is scheduled for an early issue of Alter Ego. —Roy.] JA: Did you know Joe Calcagno? JAFFEE: I didn’t know him, but I know he was a writer. I edited some of his scripts, and I’d meet him and give him a check, but that’s about it. JA: Did you get to know Jack Grogan? He was probably gone from Timely by the time you returned from the service. JAFFEE: I really didn’t get to know Jack at all. He was a staff writer, and went out a lot with Sekowsky and George Klein. Since I was a freelancer then, I tried to come up during lunch time, so I could go out with these guys. I thought Jack was a very erudite, well-read, and talented fellow, but my contact with him was so brief that I didn’t get to know him. Dave Gantz worked with him and knew him better. I do know that Grogan was very quick-witted.

JA: Ray Gill was another writer there. So was Ed Jurist.

Allen Bellman’s a guy we used to make a lot of fun of. He got Bell’s Palsy, but that wasn’t why we made fun of him. In fact, we eased up on him when he got that. Al’s problem was similar to Dave Berg’s; he wanted to be loved. When you want to be loved, you lead with your chin, and if the suitor rejects you, you get a kick in the pants. Al would constantly come into our room and ingratiate himself. Ours was a very, very cruel room, and you shouldn’t do that. But it was never really... we never really insulted him or called him names... none of that stuff. But there’d be merciless teasing. We’d draw the guy out, and then “wham” him.

JAFFEE: I only remember Ray Gill vaguely. Ed Jurist didn’t work for me. The only thing I remember about him is that he worked there.

JA: I think we ought to make it clear here that it was all done in the spirit of fun.

I was vaguely related to another writer who was in the business, Bill Finger. My Uncle Nat Finger was a cousin of Bill Finger. My claim to fame! Bill was a very good writer! I never met him, but my relatives kept throwing him up to me, saying, “Why can’t you be successful like Bill Finger?” This was when I was starting out and Bill was already a grown man. He was about seven years older than me.

JAFFEE: Oh, absolutely! We didn’t hate anybody in the place; nobody was hated. There were a few people who got into personal problems with each other, like when Sekowsky and Klein had the thing over Violet Barclay. But very little of that happened.

JA: Do you remember a writer named Dana Dutch? He wrote a lot of those two-page text fillers. JAFFEE: Adele handled those. She proofread them, which was pretty much like editing them. They were fillers required by the Post Office department, and nobody really cared about them. Neither did I when I edited.

There was a writer named Tierman, who was a manic-depressive and later committed suicide. He also drew his own stories. He was a very funny man. He used to come in and tell great jokes. It was shocking to me when I heard he committed suicide. I thought, “How can a guy who

Take an artist we’ll call “Gaughan”: Mike Sekowsky came in one day and said, “Gaughan should find out what the bathtub is used for.” Mike said he’d walked by him and that he didn’t smell right. Mike sat down and drew a cartoon of Gaughan getting out of a bathtub, and there was a very dark ring around the tub. That would lead to someone else doing a cartoon about Gaughan’s hygiene. Before you knew it, they’d be passed

“It Was A Fun Time!”

around the office, and everyone was laughing hysterically, except Gaughan. That’s the kind of thing we did. If Gaughan had been smart, he’d have collected all those things, sell them on eBay now, and make a fortune.

his family very well, and he knew mine.

JA: What’s the funniest thing anyone did to you?

JA: After his staff days at Timely, Dave Gantz worked with a fellow named Ben Brown. According to Dave, he laid out the stories (in addition to writing them), then Ben would finish the pencils before Dave inked them. What do you remember about Ben Brown?

JAFFEE: I have a feeling that, if you told most of the guys who were in that room all these stories that I’ve told, they wouldn’t recall them. We have a tendency to block out the ones that happened to us. I don’t remember anything happening to me except for making jokes about each other. Mike’d make a joke about my kid, and I’d make a joke about his hair or something. I don’t recall anyone doing to me the kinds of things we did to Al Sulman or Ed Winiarski. None of that was done to me. There was one other one that was very funny. I think it was done to Pogy Walton. From time to time, penciled pages were rejected and a new one had to be drawn. The rejected page would be thrown into an office somewhere, because no value was placed on originals at the time. JA: That’s how Bob Deschamps got to practice inking. They gave him those pages to work on. JAFFEE: Right. One day Mike Sekowsky got one of those penciled pages and thoroughly sprayed it with fixative. He slipped it into Pogy’s bin. When I say “bin”... there was a container for inkers where Gary Keller used to put penciled and lettered pages into the appropriate slot, so the inker could get them when he finished a page that he was working on. He’d grab a page and start inking. Well, when Pogy got to the one that was sprayed with Krylon, he said, “What’s the hell’s wrong with my ink? Nothing sticks to this page.” It didn’t take him long to figure out what’d happened, and for a moment there, we all had a good laugh. These things go on in studios all over the world. JA: We’ve talked about Ed Winiarski a little bit, but I’d like to get a little more from you about him. JAFFEE: I don’t know a lot about Ed. I know he rode the rails [i.e., was one of the legion of homeless men who hitched free rides in the boxcars of freight trains during the Depression]. I did get to know his family after we were all dismissed from Timely Comics, because he lived near where Dave Gantz and I lived. You know, Dave and I lived next door to each other. In fact, we bought our houses together. We both got out of the military around the same time, and I contacted Dave. He had this broken-down old car. Dave and his wife, and my wife and I, decided that we couldn’t find apartments in the Bronx, so we drove out to Long Island to see if we could find some houses. We found two houses next to each other, bought them, and were neighbors for eleven years. I knew Dave and

During World War II, Allen Bellman, the subject of an information-packed interview three issues back, drew several “Patriot” tales, including this pair of panels from Marvel Mystery Comics #62—just about the only ones from the story that feature the costumed hero which we didn’t squeeze into A/E #32. (March 1945). Photo courtesy of Allen & Roz Bellman. [Art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Winiarski lived close by, and we’d be invited to his house for barbecues. I got to know Ed and his wife Fran, and their children.

JAFFEE: His real name was Ben Horowitz. Dave and Ben were very good friends and partners for some time. Ben went to the School of Music and Art with Dave and me. He was kind-of an odd guy, but very likable. I didn’t know him that well; he was really more friendly with Dave. I only knew him while at school, not afterwards. JA: Dave told me that Brown suffered some emotional problems while in World War II. JAFFEE: That’s quite possible, because I thought he had emotional problems while in school. I hate to use terms like this, but to me, Ben was kind-of kooky. JA: Well, did you ever know a cartoonist who wasn’t? JAFFEE: Everybody except you and me. [laughter] You’ve interviewed enough of them to know that we are normal and they are not. [more laughter] JA: That’s exactly the truth. You know, Al, I like you more and more. [laughs] Do you remember Mike Becker? JAFFEE: I knew Mike Becker, but not well. We were friendly in the sense that I’d see him and say, “Hi, Mike, how are you doing?” He worked in the adventure room, so there wasn’t really an opportunity for me to spend time with him. I knew Bob Landers a little better. He was a letterer and an inker. But here again, we weren’t close friends, so I can’t say much about him. And Mike Sekowsky’s brother George worked there for a short time. He was a nice, quiet fellow. JA: I’m not sure about what he did at Timely. Was he an inker? JAFFEE: I would have to assume so. The kind of people who were able to get jobs via their relatives in these places usually came in as letterers or inkers. If they were artists, they could have gone anywhere, not needing that type of help to get hired. Here again, Bob Landers was a letterer; he couldn’t draw. Inkers made more money than letterers, so he wanted to become an inker. That’s why Mario Acquaviva wanted to become an inker.

Al Jaffee

JA: I hope you can solve a “Marvel Mystery” for me. Vince Fago remembered a man named “Thomas” who he said drew “The Human Torch,” but he couldn’t provide me with any details about him—save that he was German. Allen Bellman remembered a man named Tom Tomasch, whose real first name was Elmer. I’m wondering whether they might not have been the same man. Bellman wasn’t sure of the spelling of the man’s last name. Does any of this ring a bell with you?

but they didn’t stick in me the way they would with Al Bellman or Dave Berg. That’s why Mike and I could give it to each other. Some people found him difficult. And I think he had a very strong streak of paranoia; that’s my personal opinion. He did think there were certain people who were out to get him. He expressed that to me in a very personal situation that I’m not going to get into. I just felt that he was overreacting to what he thought was bad treatment. But on the whole, I always enjoyed being with Mike Sekowsky.

JAFFEE: There was a guy there named Tomaso; maybe he was the man everyone’s trying to remember? I vaguely remember this man and can’t recall his first name, but the name “Tomaso” rings a Bellman with me. [mutual laughter]

JA: He was just a gruff person, and so long as you weren’t weak, you could handle it for what it was. JAFFEE: Exactly. The only other expression that comes to mind is that he did not suffer fools lightly. He got bored very quickly. If someone came over to him and was trying to be friendly and shoot the breeze, it wore off very quickly with Mike, because he became bored. He wasn’t going to look for a good opportunity to get away; he’d just say, “Goodbye. I don’t want to hear any more of this,” and he’d leave.

JA: You talked about how some of you guys would go drinking after work on Fridays. Did that go on all night? JAFFEE: No, no. When we worked at the Empire State Building, we’d go to the Whaler Bar on Fifth Avenue, drink until about nine o’clock, and then go home.

“Some People Found [Mike Sekowsky] Difficult” JA: I’ve got a variety of opinions from others about Mike Sekowsky, and I’d like to hear yours.

JAFFEE: As a comic artist, he was superb. He had a very distinctive style and was extremely proficient. He could do anything. His powers of visualization were really super. I don’t know, if he’d been born in another time, if he’d have been a great illustrator or not, but he certainly had all the talents for it. He was a master of staging scenes for covers, splash pages. If you had five hundred different things happening in a splash page, well, Mike didn’t sketch. He went right in and drew it. I was never as good an artist as Mike was, but I also had the ability to look down at a blank space, and see where everything is. It’s almost like I’m tracing my vision, so I don’t have to do a lot of preliminary sketches, and neither did Mike. The best way I can describe it is that Mike had a camera lucida in his eyes. Once he had the picture in his head... I’m talking about foreshortened characters, maybe fifty of them flying through the air and heroes with their arms extended. As an artist, I know you know what kind of foreshortening that entails. Mike had it down cold. He could make compositions that were the best. Mike was not a finisher, and I don’t think he cared about inking at all. I think he had to do some of it later in life, but I don’t know how successful he was at it. As a penciler, he was super. As a person, he was extremely bright and very well-read, too. He was somewhat anti-social. For me, he was fun to be with because he was so bright, but he was always throwing barbs out. When you asked me earlier about things that happened to me, well, I remember Mike’s barbs,

JA: Did you have much contact with Carl Burgos or Bill Everett?

JAFFEE: I only saw Bill Everett in passing. Carl Burgos and I talked with each other on a number of occasions, and I found him to be a very friendly guy.

JA: Some of the Timely people I’ve talked to didn’t know that Burgos created “The Human Torch” or that Everett created “Sub-Mariner.” JAFFEE: I didn’t know that, either. JA: I find that so amazing, because those were two of the company’s big adventure characters. JAFFEE: Well, I came to Timely after they were created. JA: I know. Their signatures were on those features until they went to war, and the features were never signed after that... by anyone. I always thought it odd that when they returned, they weren’t allowed to sign their own features. Almost no one signed their features once the war started and certainly no one did after the war. JAFFEE: Again, that might have had something to do with the lawsuit Siegel and Shuster had against DC Comics, trying to get the rights to Superman. JA: I’m under the impression that neither Burgos or Everett worked in the offices during the 1940s. JAFFEE: They didn’t.

“It Was A Fun Time!”

“Work That’d Knock Your Socks Off” JA: I know John Buscema was in the adventure room when he started. Did you get to know him? JAFFEE: John Buscema was good, even when he started. You spot real talent, no matter how young they are. Take Gene Colan, for example. He was eighteen years old and was drawing fantastic westerns. The same with Russ Heath. His pencils were so tight that they printed directly from the pencils. He didn’t use an inker. Russ would sit there and fill in all the blacks. His stuff looked like engravings. He was a very meticulous artist. There was a big flap about it because people were arguing over whether his pencils were too tight. But it reproduced beautifully. There were people coming in all the time with work that’d knock your socks off, and there were people who were doing pedestrian work. Every now and then, someone would come in with work that just sparkled. John Buscema was one of those. Steve Ditko was another one of those. His work was very solid. He didn’t start working for Timely until the 1950s, and he didn’t work on staff. I didn’t know him, but I saw his work. His pencils were good, and his inks were even better. There was a lot of substance to his work. His layouts were very dramatic. I was not obsessive about it. To me, this was a business. I wasn’t in it for the art. I was in it to make a living, and I didn’t make any bones about it. Some people were in there because they thought of themselves as the Picassos or Rembrandts of the art world. Not me. If they want you to draw horses, you draw horses. If they want you to draw longunderwear heroes, you draw long-underwear heroes.

I went from teenage to humor comics and back again. It didn’t matter to me and I didn’t dwell on the stuff. But when I saw a guy like Stan Drake come in, it registered that this work is great. Some guys, like Ken Bald, did good work, but it was too stylized. It was more style than substance. Vic Dowd was that way, too, even though they were very good artists. But this is a personal preference; it has nothing to do with the quality of their work.

“All That Stuff Just Disappeared” JA: You didn’t save any of your originals while at Timely. Why not? JAFFEE: The policy at all the comic book companies was that they kept everything. We signed away all rights, and it never occurred to us that we could get any of our originals back. You know, they disposed of that art after it was used. If you really wanted to, you could make stuff disappear. I’ll tell you the truth: forty, fifty, sixty years ago, nobody placed any value on these things. We didn’t care. I had some art that I left in my parents’ apartment when I went into the service. It was very crowded there, so they just started dumping things. I had original art like Creig Flessel’s “Sandman” pages, and quite a number of other things. I even think I had some of Dave Berg’s “Death Patrol.” I didn’t go after this stuff; people handed it to me and I took it home to study it in order to learn how to do adventure comics. But all that stuff just disappeared. We wanted to sell our work; we didn’t want to keep it. That was really 95% of our impetus in creating it. The only way to sell it was to sell it to a publisher, and after you sold it, you wanted to get on to the next job, so you could sell that, too.

Writer/artists Bill Everett and Carl Burgos were in the armed services from 1942 through the end of World War II and freelanced for several years afterward, so weren’t well-known to many staffers. But the heroes they created—Sub-Mariner and The Human Torch, respectively—were two of Timely’s first, greatest, and most enduring! Here’s the final page of Everett’s entry in Marvel Mystery Comics #19 (May 1941), courtesy of Doc V.— and a Burgos splash for Marvel Mystery #31 (May 1942), courtesy of Warren Reece. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Al Jaffee want to rock the boat, so you had all kinds of personal axes to grind. Most of us became apathetic simply because we had to make a living. We couldn’t go on strike; the market was so tight anyway. How many comic book publishers were there? How many syndicate houses? They were practically all monopolies; there was no competition, except for stars like Jack Kirby. And you could name the “Jack Kirbys” on one hand. Today, there are so many more opportunities in other fields. Who knows, if Will Elder and Harvey Kurtzman and Al Jaffee came along today as twenty-year-olds, would they be in television or movies instead of comic books?

Al Jaffee poses for Doc Vassallo’s camera with copies of Patsy Walker whose covers he drew way back when— including #44 (Jan. 1953), seen larger at right, also courtesy of Doc. [Art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

JA: Then you assumed that the publisher bought all rights to the artwork. JAFFEE: Once it was sold, it was gone. It was up to the publishers to do whatever they wanted with it. It just never occurred to me that it could come back. Nothing was written down, in regards to rights. They copyrighted everything. I think the copyright laws of that time gave the copyrighter ownership, no matter how he got the work. He could have hit someone over the head with a baseball bat, but once he copyrighted it, it was his. The copyright law was only changed in the last ten years or so to where there must be a written agreement with both parties in regards to rights. What they do now is give you a “work for hire” contract in order to acquire all rights. I don’t recall anyone asking for their work back. That was never discussed. Maybe sometime in your interviews, you might run into some oldtimer who had a knock-down, drag-out fight with a publisher, and may have threatened a lawsuit or something like that. I haven’t heard of it. The only thing I’ve heard of is people like Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, suing for some rights to their creation. You know, the rights to have their names on it, the rights to make royalties... I don’t think they ever contemplated that they could get originals back or total ownership. The best that they could hope for was to get shared ownership. JA: You were aware of the Siegel and Shuster lawsuit against DC at the time, weren’t you? JAFFEE: Not at the time. I came into it later when the National Cartoonists Society came into the act, and got them a yearly stipend and creator credit on the feature. This was in the 1970s. I think we all sort-of had an unspoken attitude about it before then. It was sort-of like suing the United States Government, trying to get something back. All the cards were stacked in favor of the publisher, and you had to be some sort of nutcase to go on this kind of quest. First of all, you’re going to spend a fortune on lawyers, and a struggling cartoonist can’t do it. And the rich cartoonists didn’t need to do it. In fact, one of the big problems in the National Cartoonists Society was that, when they’d try to upgrade the conditions of the cartoonists, they were mostly beaten down by the very rich syndicated cartoonists, who didn’t own their features but were making a ton of money. They didn’t

JA: Good point. If Jack was alive today and creating the kinds of characters he became famous for, he wouldn’t give them away to Marvel like he did in the 1960s. And no company today would pay him for it, so I don’t think the conditions exist at major companies for a Jack Kirby to exist today. JAFFEE: Exactly. I’m not very close to the comic book field today, but I would cast my vote for your opinion. JA: You said you were a freelancer until you went into the service. Did you immediately become a staffer when you returned? JAFFEE: Yes. As a matter of fact, I was waiting to be released from the Air Force and found a way to get out a month or two early, instead of just sitting around and waiting, because the war was over. I was married and wanted to get my life started again. When I found out that I could get released a little earlier if I had a job to go to, I called Stan Lee and asked if he’d write a letter to my commanding officer, offering me a job, if indeed he wanted me to work for him. Stan said, “Sure, I’ll do it, and I want you to come to work for me.” That got me out a month or two earlier. I was still wearing my uniform because I couldn’t get any civilian clothes. I was coming to work as a sergeant. Isn’t that weird? They were the only clothes I had. There was a tremendous shortage of clothes. All the factories had been geared to making military uniforms. I left a lot of civilian clothes before I went into the service, but I had three younger brothers who were not in the service, and they wore out all my clothes. JA: That’s what brothers are for! When were you formally out of the service? JAFFEE: I think it was January 1946.

“Stan Lee Always Had a ‘Can-Do’ Attitude” JA: We haven’t said much about Stan Lee, and we should. What were your early impressions of Stan? JAFFEE: We had a relationship of mutual respect and got along. I had quite a favorable impression of Stan. He wasn’t a close friend, but he was always so enthusiastic about the business. He made decisions very quickly, and didn’t do a lot of talking about it. He looked at your stuff and would say, “Okay, here’s a script. Bring the pencils back next

“It Was A Fun Time!”

Monday.” That’s my personal experience. From the moment I got to know him, Stan trusted me to do whatever he assigned me.

JA: Why do you think you were made an editor? And you were a full editor, right?

JA: Was he that way with most others?

JAFFEE: I don’t know what a full editor was. I just know that Stan Lee was a full editor. Everyone else, Don Rico and Ernie Hart, were subeditors. What did a sub-editor have the power to do? He had the power to buy scripts, assign artwork, and have checks made out. I did all those things, so I think I was a full editor in the sense that Ernie and Don were, but I didn’t work at it as long as they did. The staff was terminated while I was an editor.

JAFFEE: I think he favored some and disfavored others, which is natural. What I recognized more than anything else was that Stan Lee always had a “can-do” attitude. He just never equivocated. Here’s a good example: when he made me an editor, Stan made up all the cover ideas. I’d go into his office and say, “Stan, we’ve got deadlines coming up on eighteen covers.” Stan would say, “Okay, sit down.” He was almost like Hollywood’s version of a young hotshot “can-doanything” director. He’d say, “What’s number one?” I’d say, “On my list, there’s Patsy Walker.” He’d say, “Okay. Put Patsy in a bookstore. Have Buzz standing on the other side of the bookshelf, looking through the books and saying, ‘That’s a very interesting image I see here.’ “ That’d be a typical teenage gag of its time. That’d be a wrap, and take about three minutes. By the way, Stan knew all the names of all the characters. So Stan would say, “What’s next?” I’d say, “Frankie,” and we’d go through all eighteen covers, and be out of there in fifteen minutes. I’d go back, write them up from my shorthand notes, and tell my assistant, Leon Lazarus, to call in the proper artists and tell them what their covers are. Stan Lee was extremely efficient. The only criticism would be that Stan was recirculating the same teenage gags over and over again. But Archie Publications did it, too. The covers were usually about who’d go to the prom, or what’s that beautiful reflection in the pond? The typical teenage gags, but Stan would put them in a new setting so that it looked enough different. And he did it quickly, month after month. The guy was always popping with ideas. Some guys complained that his ideas weren’t always transcendental, or that they weren’t hugely original. But it was the comic book business at that time, and there were very few things that were original. JA: Well, if you hung everybody for not being original, there’d been no one left to do the books. JAFFEE: That’s right. I had 18 to 20 titles a month, and that’s just the teenage titles. Then there’s romance, crime, super-heroes... how many shots of Captain America could you have on a cover that’d make someone say, “My God! That’s a masterpiece!” It was just a Captain America cover, done by a very good artist.

Why I was chosen to edit is a mystery to me. It came right out of the blue. Stan had a real position of power, and he retained a certain degree of aloofness. He didn’t want to become buddy-buddy with the staff in order to avoid favoritism. Stan did have close friends like Ken Bald and a few others, whom he socialized with in part because his wife socialized with their wives. He had a social circle, but generally he tried to be aloof and impartial, so you had no idea what was coming emotionally, because all of a sudden, Stan came up to me and said, “ I want you to become the editor of the teenage books.” I said, “Stan, stop kidding around. I’m just one of the guys in the bullpen.” He said, “No, no, no... you can do it.” I said, “I can’t do it. I’m not a leader of men.” He replied, “I don’t want to talk about it. You’re going to take over and do it.” I said, “Look, I also count on taking freelance work home on weekends like everyone does to supplement my income.” Stan said, “I understand that and you can keep on doing that.” So I said I’d give it a try. That’s how it happened; it was as simple as that. I moved into a room where Leon Lazarus had a desk, and there was another desk. The mystery to me is whether or not I replaced somebody. That must have been the reason I was hired. I don’t know whether it was Ernie Hart or Jim Miele, who edited some of the humor books. JA: Was Leon already an assistant editor? JAFFEE: Yes. He was somebody’s assistant editor and he read scripts. He’d reject the ones that were really terrible and pass on the ones that had something. I really enjoyed working with Leon. He was a perfect assistant, a terrific guy with a very lovely sense of humor. He’d get a script, go over it with me, and say, “This is a good story, but here are the weaknesses, which I think we can fix.” I’d read it and he’d be right on the money. We’d knock out a couple of pages and add an additional page and bang!, you had a good six-page story.

Al Jaffee

“I Really Did Enjoy the Job of Editor” JA: I know Jim Miele was very active in cartoons and comic books. He created “Wendy the Good Witch” and “Hot Stuff” for Harvey Comics. I don’t really know about his editorial stint at Timely, though. JAFFEE: Jim Miele was an editor there for many years, and we pulled a monumental practical joke on him, too. This was like a Hollywood production. We were up on the 14th floor of the Empire State Building. Jim was in Al Sulman’s office, which was next to the window. That window was perpendicular where the building extended farther out, which was the studio that Syd Shores and those guys were in. Picture an “L” shape. Jim Miele would often come to work in the morning, hung over very badly, but with a big smile on his face and admitting it, saying, ‘I’m so hung over that I can’t see where my next step is going to fall.”

scripts that these people didn’t have much to complain about, because we saved a lot of scripts. They got paid. JA: You fixed scripts, but were there many instances where you’d have the writer do the rewrite? JAFFEE: I don’t remember ever having somebody rewrite a script. There might have been an instance where I had Leon tell somebody to rewrite the ending if it didn’t hold together. Things like that happened. I don’t think I ever gave someone a script and told them to rewrite six pages. That would’ve been a waste of time.

What Mike and I did, and I think Pogy was in on this, too—believe it or not, we rigged up, on the outside of the building, a string, and attached to it was a Halloween skeleton. We hung it up above the window. Jim came in that morning, and was so hung Dan DeCarlo’s cover for Millie the Model #27 (March 1951), over that his eyes were watering. He sat down sent by Doc V. From the late 1950s on, De Carlo’s work on the at his desk, looking out the window, and we “Archie” characters was considered the gold standard for that company. The photo was taken in 1999 by Dave Siegel. dropped the skeleton down, and it was [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.] dancing. [mutual laughter] Jim jumped about JA: You don’t remember much a foot in the air, screaming! He came to his about your writers, do you? senses and came out screaming, “You bastards!” All we needed was for JAFFEE: I really don’t, and I’ll tell you why. Leon Lazarus was the him to have a heart attack, which luckily he didn’t have. I’m glad front man. I sat at a desk, and received scripts that Leon had gone nobody pulled that one on me. I lost track of Jim Miele when we all through. He separated the wheat from the chaff, so he gave me only the went freelance. wheat. Every now and then, he’d consult with me, saying, “This writer JA: Jim Miele was an assistant editor at Timely from 1942 until 1944, seems to have some talent, but these scripts really aren’t that good. Parts according to Jerry Bails. He also lists Miele as being an editor in 1948 of it are good, here and there, but it’s really not constructed well.” I’d and 1949, which conflicts a little with your time line. When you say, “Why don’t you tell him that and work with him.” And he did that, returned to Timely in early 1946, was Jim Miele editing? which is why I didn’t get to work with too many of them. It’s hard to remember bylines on scripts after all these years. Once the scripts were JAFFEE: He was there. He may have been the guy I replaced as editor, taken care of, I’d tell Leon to hand them to the appropriate artists, like but I’m not sure of the date. The staff was let go around the end of 1949 Ed Winiarski or Alfred Williams. or early 1950. I was an editor for about two years. Or maybe it was a year and a half. I’m not certain. JA: You mentioned Alfred Williams before. Who was he? JA: Okay, then your editorial stint probably began early in 1948. JAFFEE: Yes, something like that. I started out at a hundred and fifty a week. And we always got generous bonuses at Christmas time. These were the boom years, after the war. The economy was beginning to grow by leaps and bounds, and money was to be made everywhere. Of course, I augmented my hundred and fifty a week by as much as three hundred on the weekend. I’d write a dozen pages and pencil them. JA: How did your relationship with the other staffers change, once you became their boss? JAFFEE: My recollection was that the relationship stayed a very good one. I tried to help people do their jobs. I rewrote scripts. It’s true that some of the script writers might not have been terribly happy if I rejected a script. But that’s going to happen with scripts in any business, if the ideas aren’t any good. By the way, Leon and I fixed so many

JAFFEE: Bill Williams was his real name, but we called him “Alfred.” He also had a studio in Tudor City. He did teenage art. JA: Did you create any features while you were the editor? JAFFEE: No. I just handled the stuff that I had. JA: Do you know who created Millie the Model? JAFFEE: I think Stan Lee did. Stan really came up with the names of most of the characters. I remember when he gave Hedy of Hollywood to Ed Winiarski. He said, “Winiarski, I want you to do Hedy of Hollywood.” I don’t know if Winiarski wrote the script or not, though I think at the beginning, he did. JA: Do you remember what the best-selling humor books were?

“It Was A Fun Time!”

Though humor and westerns were then the coming thing, the super-heroes still had a couple of years left in them the first time around when Marvel Mystery Comics #84 (Oct. 1947) spotlighted this quintet of features. The identities of the artists of most of these tales are uncertain, although Pauline Loth probably drew “Miss America”… “Sub-Mariner” is definitely the work of Bill Everett… and “Blonde Phantom” may be by Mike Sekowsky. Any ideas on the others? Thanks to Matt Moring. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

JAFFEE: No. The one thing that nobody on staff had any idea about was the business end of it. There was a good reason for that. If one of the guys found out that his book was selling, say, 25,000,000 copies a month against 200,000 for any other book, they just might ask for more than $35 a page. No one knew the numbers. I can’t say that I was ever curious about it. I tend to have a single focus, which is usually in the creative end of things. To get into the business end of things is a slippery slope, because the next thing you know, you get some information, and that information gets you angry. Then you start to get agitated and think, “My God, I’m doing Patsy Walker, and it’s outselling everything else, and I’m getting the same pay as some piece of junk.” There wasn’t enough information or enough power on my part to do

anything about it. It was the same thing with Mad and Bill Gaines. It didn’t matter how many copies Mad sold; I wasn’t going to get any more money than anybody else. JA: In some of the Timely Comics of the late 1940s, there was a page that showed how the different books were divided into different units. They had a red unit, a blue unit, and a yellow unit. Does this ring a bell with you? JAFFEE: Not at all. That’s during my time there, but it’s completely foreign to me. Again, I was very focused on my work and was heavily motivated to make as much money as I could. These were very heady times in regards to starting families, buying houses and cars, and getting established in the real world after three and a half years of military service. I was into doing my job, making as much money as I could, and

Al Jaffee JAFFEE: That was the one time I had a direct dealing with him. I always had nodding, friendly encounters with him, like when we passed each other in the hall. I’d say, “Hello, Mr. Goodman,” and he’d say, “Hi.” That was it: a simple, cordial relationship. My relationship with Stan didn’t really change, either. We were always friendly. He was always my boss, and there’s always a distinction between a boss and his employee. Anybody who says differently is full of it.

“A Check Is a Check” JA: Timely had so many fake company names under which they published. Do you remember what company name was listed on your paycheck?

Millie the Model #6 (June 1947) featured “Millie” stories drawn by Ken Bald and Pete Riss, as well as “Rusty” and “Willie.” There are also contents-page credits for Rob Solomon, Jim Miele, Al Sulman, and Gary Keller, all of whom are mentioned by Al Jaffee in this interview. The page is signed by Roy Thomas because collector William J.B. Dorn III asked him to do so at a 2003 comics convention in St. Louis (since the Missouri-born Rascally One had briefly scripted Millie mags in 1965); later, William generously decided to make a gift of the comic to Ye Ed. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

being as creative as I could. All the other stuff didn’t interest me. There was one highlight during my editorship. One day, Leon handed me a batch of scripts written by the same woman. He said, “You’ve got to take a look at these. I don’t know what you want to do with these.” Leon would read the scripts before I would, and he didn’t think they were any good at all. I read them and he was right. I said, “Send them all back to this woman and thank her, but these are not up to our standards.” Shortly after that, either Stan or Robbie came into my office and said, “You have to go see Martin Goodman because your ass is on the griddle.” I went into Martin’s office and he said, “These scripts were written by a friend of my wife. She recommended that this lady write them and submit them to us.” Martin was obviously upset because his wife Jean was upset. He said, “Tell me what’s wrong with them.” I said, “Mr. Goodman, these scripts are not up to our standards. I understand they were written by your wife’s friend, but they are not up to my standards, and they aren’t up to our standards. However, it is your money and if you want me to buy them, then I will. But I suggest that you read them first so that you don’t wind up throwing your money away for nothing.” He said, “All right. Leave them with me.” I left his office and the only thing I heard was that, a few days later, someone said, “Everything’s okay.” I was right. I didn’t reject the scripts for any personal reasons. From that point on, I really did enjoy the job of editor. It was a whole new world for me because a lot of very interesting artists came in, and a lot of very interesting scripts for me to edit. I could take a 12-page script and bring it down to a very neat six pages. I’d make thumbnail sketches, too. I found it very exciting and I really enjoyed that job. JA: Once you were editor, did you have many dealings with Goodman?

JAFFEE: Magazine Management. I don’t recall it saying anything else, but I must confess that I didn’t pay that much attention to it. A check is a check.

JA: Dave Gantz told me what happened when Timely installed a time clock in for the staffers. I know he was very unhappy about it. Were you?

JAFFEE: It didn’t bother me, because I felt that they had a right to expect us to be in at a certain time and to leave at a certain time. Since I didn’t see any problem in going back and forth to work, I just accepted it. I think most everybody grumbled about it, because a time clock for artists feels like a demeaning sort of thing. The feeling among artists is that you can’t be creative by the clock. However, we were factory workers. It wasn’t like you worked at home and made your own schedule. When you’re on salary, unless you’re in an executive position, you have to punch a time clock, staffers and editors alike. I was still one of the boys then, not an editor yet. JA: So this was probably in 1947. Was there a specific incident that provoked the use of the time clock? JAFFEE: I really don’t have any information on that. As far as I was concerned, I felt that it was my job to be in at nine o’clock. Some guys lived in Manhattan and did the party scene, like Jim Miele, who might wander in at eleven o’clock. That could have precipitated it: the idea that not enough people were coming in on time. Then there was the lunch crowd, who might have been taking too long to eat. I don’t remember if we punched out at lunch time or not. I wasn’t in the position that Robbie Solomon and Frank Torpey were in. Their entire job seemed to be watching how the place was running. If they saw that a room of seven guys only had four people by eleven o’clock, then they probably went to Goodman and told him what was going on. But to me, it didn’t matter a damn bit. JA: I’m staying with this because it’s striking to me that a room full of artists would have to punch a time clock. I don’t believe any other comics company did that.

“It Was A Fun Time!”

JAFFEE: It is striking. I don’t believe anybody ever got punished if they were late. It seems to me that I came in late one time, but I didn’t get my pay docked or anything. It was just an attempt to get everyone to sit up and fly right. JA: What happened to you when the staff was let go? JAFFEE: When they let the staff go, I was out of work. There was no work and I don’t know what Timely Comics was doing, but they certainly weren’t calling on me. In between, a friend of mine... I think it was Sol Brodsky... said, “If you’re not doing anything, they are giving out work at Fox Comics. Go up there and take a chance if you want, but he’s notorious for not paying.” I wasn’t working, so I went to see him. [Victor] Fox’s assistant told him about all the work I had done at Timely, and Fox said, “Give him a comic book to do.” Fox said, “What have you heard about me?” I said, “To be very frank with you, my colleagues have said they’ve had a difficult time getting money from you after they’ve delivered the work.” He said, “What do you think?” I looked him in the eye and said, “You know something, Mr. Fox? I think you’re going to pay me, so I’m going to do the job.” They gave me the comic book. I don’t remember what the book was, but I did it, and brought it back to them. The front reception room was filled with an angry mob of guys who’d been called in one by one, and told they’d get paid one month from now or two months from now, and even three months from now. Nobody was getting any money because Fox was going out of business. But you know, they called me and told me that they had a check for me, and I was the only one who got paid that day. I don’t know what the hell that was a demonMad-men meet the super-people! In the 1980s Al Jaffee drew, from a script by former Mad associate stration of, but I just have a feeling that there is editor Jerry de Fuccio, six “dailies” of a Super Heroes National Convention, which was first published something about reaching a contact on a visceral, in Ron Frantz’s Fantastic Adventures #2 (Oct. 1987). Thanks to Ron and Al for permission to reprint human level that works. I couldn’t write down what them here. [©2004 Al Jaffee & Estate of Jerry de Fuccio.] anyone else should do, but I wasn’t arrogant, I didn’t threaten, I didn’t make a joke. I just said, “I think you’re going to pay me and I’m going to do it.” I came out with a check, and it was a substantial check, because I’d penciled and inked and JA: The date I have for the major layoff is a little vague. The most maybe even lettered that one, because I didn’t pay anything to anyone. It often quoted date is early 1950. Rudy Lapick told me he stayed until was the only thing I had going. I got the full amount, which I think was February of 1950. $35 a page.

“When Rudy Lapick Returns, You Have to Fire Him”

I heard that, a couple of days later, Fox folded his business, and nobody got paid. And I’ll tell you what. I went to my bank and told my teller that this check was going to bounce, but it didn’t. That was a miracle. You know, now that I’m talking about this scene, I remember the faces of so many people I knew in that waiting room, bitter and apprehensive and angry as hell. And then going into that darkened office with Victor sitting there behind his desk, with his assistant... I can almost remember the name of the assistant. Maybe it’ll come to me later. I don’t know how soon it was after this that I got a call from Stan. He said, “Al, how would you like to come back and handle Patsy Walker for me?” And that’s when things really started humming.

JAFFEE: That sounds about right, but I have a notion that it was before the end of 1949. I don’t see myself at Timely in 1950. I remember being let go at Christmas-time of 1949. JA: Stan Goldberg told me he was let go at the end of 1949, too. This is the way I understand it: every week, somebody was let go, and eventually everyone was let go. It was building up to a mass firing. Rudy Lapick is sure of the date because he got married in May 1948, and when he came back from his honeymoon, he discovered he was out of a job. Rudy said he complained to you about keeping inker Larry Tullipano on and letting him go, because it was Rudy who was always fixing Tullipano’s inks. Rudy said you went to Stan Lee, came back, and said, “Okay. You can stay, but if there’s another firing, you’re the first to go because you’re the last guy hired.” Rudy said he

Al Jaffee I didn’t mean that.” JA: I’m sure of that. But it’s one thing if the staffers tease you, and another if the boss does. JAFFEE: Well, of course, that was it. Stan saw all the ribbing and kidding that was going on in the bullpen, and thought he could do the same thing. We had that problem with Bill Gaines. Bill once said to Harvey Kurtzman, “Harv, all I want to be is one of the boys!” Harvey said, “Bill, you can never be one of the boys. You hold life and death over them. How can you be one of them?” Harvey always called a spade a spade. Another guy, take me, for instance, would answer, “That’s great, Bill. We’d love to have you.” JA: I’d have probably done what Harvey did, but I’m not always very tactful.

A pair of splashes by Jaffee from Patsy Walker #44 (Jan. 1953). There were also two more “Patsy” stories, another starring her boyfriend “Buzz Baxter,” a “Hedy Wolfe” tale, and a Hedy paper-doll pin-up, all in this single issue… and all in color for a dime. [©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

was there until everyone was let go in February 1950. JAFFEE: That’s right! I remember that. I remember we were talking about how terrible it was that Rudy Lapick was let go right after he got married. We were waiting for him to come back and we were all feeling lousy about it, because we knew what was going to happen to him. The timing was bad for Rudy. What probably happened, now that you’re reminding me, is that Leon Lazarus came to me and said, “When Rudy Lapick returns, you have to fire him.” It was Leon who picked up the phone, and very often, bad news like this was not transmitted personally to anybody. Stan picked up the phone in his office, and called our extension. Leon got the message on the phone and said, “That was Stan. When Rudy Lapick comes back from his honeymoon, you’ve got to fire him.” I hated having to do that. I don’t know what happened in between there, but I’m sure I went to Stan and said, “This is a terrible position you’re putting me in. I don’t want to fire this guy. I think you guys should fire him.” I do recall that people were let go in waves. And Rudy was a young kid who inked and was a nice, friendly fellow. I’m glad I was instrumental in keeping Rudy on. JA: What made it tough for Rudy is that he said Stan used to come up to him and, as a joke, say, “You’re fired.” He didn’t like being teased like that. JAFFEE: Oh, Stan teased people like that all the time. I liked Stan and we got along pretty well, but it’s like a marriage. You like certain things about the person you’re with, and you’re not crazy about other things. Stan toyed with people, including me, without realizing that underlings get very scared when someone they depend on for their living is joking about things that may affect the way they make their living. But I would have to put it in a certain context. I don’t think Stan ever did anything to be cruel. It was just his sense of humor; he wanted to get a rise out of you, that’s all. If Stan were apprised of the fact that the person’s feelings were hurt, he would instantly say, “Oh, gee, I’m sorry.

When Rudy returned from his honeymoon, it was Chic Stone who told him about being let go when they were in the elevator. Rudy didn’t believe him because Stan had always made that joke about firing him.

JAFFEE: Things like that were routinely done at Timely. Stan didn’t have the nerve to do it, so he delegated that responsibility to others. He loved hiring people and had a great time doing that, because he could be the nice guy.

“I Never Went Back on Staff” JA: John Buscema said that the main reason for the massive firing was because Martin Goodman opened up a closet, found a ton of unused pages in inventory, and blew his top. Do you remember hearing about that? JAFFEE: I did hear that story. That’s something that happens. It also happened at Mad. It happens because editorial wants to keep certain people from working at another publishing house. So they keep the writers writing and the artists drawing. Timely had a big freelance crew and a big staff. The freelance crew were mostly writers, but they also had artists freelancing. They kept buying stuff in order to stay ahead of the game. When you’re putting out thirty or forty books a month, you’re in big trouble if you fall behind. You won’t be able to fill out those magazines. That’s why you stockpile work. If you don’t watch it very carefully, the stockpile gets higher and higher and higher. I had cabinets in my room and those shelves were getting filled very fast. I guess when I left Timely, they had a big stack of stuff to use, and that’s just from my office. The same thing happened at Mad, because Al Feldstein wanted to have something to fall back on in case someone got sick or something else happened. I remember that they took inventory one time, and found they had thousands of dollars’ worth of stuff, most of which was unusable. It was more serious at Mad than Timely, because Mad’s stuff was more topical. Some of it became obsolete because the subjects were outdated, or maybe a celebrity in a story had died since it was commissioned. But I did hear the closet story, so it probably did happen. I don’t

“It Was A Fun Time!” know that’s why we all got let go. But if you want my opinion, it’s a very good reason, especially when the time came for Timely to cut back on titles. They had all this work, and not enough titles to put it in. Maybe Martin Goodman was squeezed for money, too, and here was all this money tied up in these useless pages. In comics, especially in those days, things went out of fashion very quickly. For example, you have a stockpile of humor work and teenage books became hot. Or horror comics become big and you’ve still got all this extra teenage stuff. You see my point. You can paper the wall with them. JA: Right. Now, how long was it before you started back at Timely? Six months? JAFFEE: That sounds about right. I kicked around a little bit, teaming up with other guys on things. I remember renting a place for a short period of time with Fred Ottenheimer, and maybe Chic Stone, in the Times Flat Iron Building. Fred was going to organize a portfolio, and take it around to get work for all of us. That didn’t pan out. Then I rented a place on 40th Street with Mike Sekowsky and Dave Gantz. The three of us worked in a hellhole, which I couldn’t stand. I’m not sure when that was, but I think I was commuting then, so it must have been sometime in the 1950s. I think I was doing Patsy Walker there, and thought maybe I’d get more work. That’s right! I was bringing my Patsy Walkers in there, hoping to get more work. This might have been in ’53 or ’54. By locating in the city with these two guys... they’d asked me to join them... we’d help each other. When one of us was overloaded with work, the other could take it over and ink it. I was living in Floral Park at that time, and between the commute and the fact that we were in a dark, dingy room, it got so depressing that I decided I wasn’t going to do that anymore. JA: Why didn’t you go back on staff? Weren’t you asked? JAFFEE: I never went back on staff, and I wasn’t asked. Stan started rehiring, and some people, like Sol Brodsky, eventually went back on staff. I don’t think there were too many teenage books then. There was Millie the Model, but another guy had nailed that one. Stan did give me Patsy Walker, and I didn’t need to be on staff to turn out one book a month, or sometimes two a month. What would have been the point of coming back on staff? It was only later on that Stan offered me another opportunity. He offered me a humor title. By this time, I was working for Mad, and he asked me if I wanted to come over and be editor of Crazy, or some other humor title. I turned it down, and he had Sol Brodsky do it.

JA: I was wondering how you felt about not being asked back on staff, either as an artist or an editor? JAFFEE: I didn’t have any feelings about it. Sometimes, your career changes simply by an act that one party or another does. Suppose I called up Stan and said, “Gee, Stan, I really miss being on staff and working with you, and I’m gung-ho to do it again at anytime”... who knows? He might have asked me. He was in the office handling all these books and doing fine, so why change things? JA: When you were doing Patsy Walker in the 1950s, were you writing and drawing it? JAFFEE: Yes. I penciled and inked it for Bonnie Hano. She married a guy named Hano in the magazine department who was a writer. JA: Wasn’t she married to writer Hank Chapman at one time, too? JAFFEE: Oh, yes. Hank Chapman was a writer in the magazine department. I think she was married to him, and I think they got divorced, and then she married Hano, who was an editor in the magazine department. Chapman wrote a ton of comic books, too. He was a very bright guy, but I didn’t know him. So I brought my penciled pages to Bonnie, and she had them lettered on staff, then I picked up the work, and went home and inked it. I had an assistant named Frank Fogarty, and Stan Lee was very fond of his work. Frank was an old-time cartoonist who did a strip for the HeraldTribune called Clarence, and another one called Mr. and Mrs. Actually, I think he took those features over from someone else. He was an oldfashioned cartoonist who had a style similar to an old strip called Grandma. I was handling all these Patsy Walkers, and every so often Stan would throw another title at me, like Patsy and Her Pals. So I was doing Patsy Walker, Patsy and Hedy, and Patsy and Her Pals, and some were monthly and some were bimonthly, and I was working my tail off on all this stuff. It was a lot to do. I was writing, penciling, and inking all this stuff, so I needed an assistant. I mentioned this to my cartoonist friend Gill Fox. Gill and I admired each other’s work. He did beautiful work. Gill’s a comics historian, and he knew everybody in the business. Gill had asked me to do some penciling for him on Candy, which he was doing for Quality Comics. When I got overloaded on all the Patsy Walker stuff, Gill suggested that I get an assistant. I said I didn’t know anybody, and Gill said, “I’ll bring somebody over.” He brought over Frank Fogarty, who had been let go from the

The many sides of Al Jaffee: a drawing done for the Miss America Special Edition magazine (not comic), Vol. 1, #1 (Fall 1949), courtesy of Doc V.—and a seascape etching which Al says he did “many years ago… this is a poor Xerox of it, but you get the idea.” [Miss America art ©2004 Marvel Characters, Inc.; etching ©2004 Al Jaffee.]

34Al Jaffee

In Mad #25 (Sept. 1955), the second issue after it became a black-&-white magazine, editor Harvey Kurtzman printed Al Jaffee’s photo on the contents page along with those of fellow contributors Stan Freberg, “Doodles” Weaver, and Steve Allen. Al’s contribution, made while he was also still working for Timely, was a baseball parody, illustrated (as per art at right) by the legendary Jack Davis. [©2004 E.C. Publications, Inc.]

Tribune after working for them for about fifty years. He was 65 years old, and I was around thirty. Fogarty and Gill Fox proposed me for membership in the National Cartoonists Society. Frank was the nicest, sweetest person I ever knew in my life, just a wonderful guy. At first, I was reluctant to hire him because of the age difference. And he couldn’t drive a car, so it meant driving the work to him, and going to get it back. Eventually I said I’d do it, so we worked together for years. I had a wonderful relationship with his family, who were the nicest people in the world. Just to give you a little side story: when Frank heard that my father was sick and in the hospital, Frank said, “I know you’re Jewish and I’m Catholic, but do you mind if I give a prayer for your father?” That’s the kind of person he was. When I’d go out to see him, I’d take one of my kids along, and Frank’s family would lavish them with goodies that you wouldn’t believe. It was a wonderful relationship, and he did these fantastic backgrounds, which I wouldn’t have spent any time doing. His backgrounds were elaborate.

background, I just sort-of made a house shape, and Frank would add a porch and a swing and fill it all in. He enjoyed doing that. He’d worked as a cartoonist all his life, and he was just sitting around the house, doing nothing. Frank was grateful to me, and I was so embarrassed, you know. It was a symbiotic relationship. He was with me almost all the time I was freelancing for Timely in the 1950s, until I moved far away and couldn’t take the time to do that driving to and from his house.

“Stan Was Unstoppable” JA: I’m glad you told me this story about Fogarty, because it’s nice to give him the credit he deserves. I would like to backtrack just a bit to Bonnie Hano, since I’d like to get more info on her. Do you know if she was doing much editing? JAFFEE: I think she was. Now, when I say she was my editor... I brought my stuff in to her and she got it lettered. I don’t know if she read the stuff herself and did any editing, or if she took it to Stan Lee. When I got it back, nothing was ever changed. I never had a single thing changed... for years.

Frank became well known in the National Cartoonists’ Society as “Holy Pictures” Fogarty, because they always called on him to make scrolls, which we used when we honored people. These scrolls looked like an illuminated page from one of those ancient Bibles. Anyone who has one of those scrolls, as far as I’m concerned, has something of enormous value, not money-wise, but as a work of art. So one day, Stan Lee’s looking at my pages, and he said to me, “When did you start doing these elaborate backgrounds?” I said, “I can’t lie to you. I have an old gentleman doing them for me.” Stan said, “Don’t let him go. He makes this stuff look great!” Of course, it made it possible for me to handle all these books without requiring other help. He didn’t just do lampshades; he did automobiles, anything that wasn’t figure work. I penciled everything roughly. If there was a house in the

Let’s hear it for Al Jaffee and Jim Amash! They actually managed to come up with one of Al’s infamous Mad-style fold-ins—a Christmas card—with a super-hero theme! (Left:) Before. (Right:) After. [©2004 DC Comics.]

“It Was A Fun Time!” That’s one of the things Stan Lee was very smart about, and I have to give him praise for it. If he recognized that you understood what you were doing and knew how to do it, there was no point in someone else coming in and “geniusing” it. Naturally, if I was making some kind of mistakes, someone would have to go in and correct them. But what kind of mistakes could I make? I knew who the characters were; I wrote the stories and knew they had to have a beginning, middle, and an end. I knew that Patsy Walker was the star. There wasn’t anything terribly complicated about it. Stan’s attitude served him and served the guy he was trusting. Stan could get rid of those three comic books and give them to Jaffee, thinking, “Jaffee’s going to bring back the right stuff. I can get on with other things.” He knew how to delegate, and in my view, that is the mark of a very good executive. I never had story conferences. When I turned in my work, it was already written and penciled. That’s the way it had been from the time I started to the time I left Timely. JA: That’s very impressive. I don’t think that way of working was a common occurrence there. JAFFEE: I don’t think it was. I may have even asked Stan if he wanted to see a script first, because I wasn’t so presumptuous as to assume I could just work this way, mainly because I don’t like to redo things. I’m sure I must have asked Stan if he wanted me to mail in the scripts first. I seem to have this picture in my head of Stan saying, “No, no. You know what you have to do.” If he thought enough of me to make me an editor, he certainly thought I was intelligent enough to handle this stuff. JA: And Stan had a gift for picking people. JAFFEE: Oh, sure. He was far more astute in that area than people give him credit for. His success speaks for itself, and he keeps turning the business around. In his way, he was one of the most creative people I’ve known. Stan was unstoppable; he created characters, and initiated new styles of telling stories and doing art. He enhanced other people’s creations and had the power to change them. For example, he didn’t create Ziggy Pig, but he did name him. He was very influential. Martin Goodman was not a creative man; all he thought about was business. Here’s an example of a Martin Goodman edict: we were all told to put crosshatching on the back of Georgie’s head [in the “Georgie” feature and comic] because “Archie” had it, and those comics were big sellers. That was so ridiculous! Is that what made “Archie” so popular, or was it good stories? That’s the kind of stuff that Stan Lee had to put up with, and he had to pass the order down to us. Goodman wanted all of us to use that look on all our teenage comics, but most of us just ignored it.

JAFFEE: Yeah, but I didn’t consider it a huge load, because I felt that the teenage material was fluff. But I insisted that the stories have some meaning. The one thing I didn’t care for was some of the stupid stories that would come in. I’d get a story from someone like, well, a character had to get to the store before it closes, and for six pages that’s what they try to do. Well, there’s no story there. I liked to get into more emotional stuff, and deal with the characters’ personalities. JA: Did the Kefauver Senate investigations into comics make you feel uneasy about your future in comics? JAFFEE: I felt it was utterly ridiculous and an extension of the thought police that developed with people like Joe McCarthy and the House UnAmerican Activities Committee. All these stupid politicians who set themselves up as censors. Then there was that Dr. Wertham turd who decided that comic books were causing juvenile delinquency. This idiot had no idea that what comic books were doing was getting kids to read, which the schools were unable to do. From time to time, you get these Neanderthals who decide to make a name for themselves, and make money for themselves. They set up committees and go after the most preposterous things in the world. They think they know morality, and think the rest of us are too stupid to know what morality is. But they know it! And it still goes on, too. Just look at the Islamic extremists in Afghanistan for an example; see how they treat their women!

“That’s How I Left Timely Comics” JA: Yeah, I know. It’s revolting. Why did you quit working for Timely? JAFFEE: It’s a strange story. Harvey Kurtzman made a pitch to me. He called me up one day in either 1955 or ’56, and said, “How would you like to come and work for Mad?” I told him how much I was making at Timely and would he be able to match that? He gave me a figure that was about half of what I has making. I said, “Harvey, I just can’t do that. I have family responsibilities, etc.” And I forgot about it. I went back to Patsy Walker, and was very far behind in my deadlines. I finally finished two

The Goodman brothers would come in… Frank Torpey and Robbie Solomon, too. They’d have these big confabs and then give us these silly types of orders. They’d say stuff like, “Have your artists draw hands like Jack Kirby,” thinking that’s what made Simon and Kirby’s work so successful. They couldn’t see that it was the whole package of Simon and Kirby’s work that made them popular. I saw how Stan worked at Timely and how he picked individuals, based on what they could and could not do. Stan knew whom he could trust, and whom he couldn’t. That’s a big thing when you carry a huge load. JA: But so did you when you were an editor.

Al Jaffee

magazines, and hadn’t slept in about 48 hours or so. I was absolutely groggy when I got in my car, and drove an hour and a half into New York with these two books. I lugged them up to Stan Lee’s office, and gave them to him. I always gave the finished artwork to Stan and not Bonnie Hano, or at least this time I did that. Stan was always half-joking, but sometimes people would take it the wrong way and think he was making fun of them, or shaking them up, or trying to get them to worry about shaping up, because he would make a joke. In this instance, his joke was, “Al, you’d better look to your laurels. Look what someone just did as a sample.” Someone had just done a sample for Patsy Walker, and he showed it to me. It was a beautiful piece of work. Stan continued in that vein, “Well, you know, you’re going to have to measure up to this stuff.” The guy he was talking about eventually ended up being one of his top artists. I said, “Stan, I don’t want this to sound bad or anything, but I think you ought to give one of my books to this guy.” I was dead-tired and a little bit angry. Then I said, “Why don’t you give this guy the book I just brought in? I have to go now. I’m very tired.” I gave Stan the pages and drove home. When I got home, my wife said that Stan called, and was sorry and didn’t mean what he’d said—that it was just sort-of a joke that went wrong. I called Stan and said, “I think I’ve had it with doing Patsy Walker anyway. I’m finished with Patsy Walker.” So then I called up Harvey. I was averaging about twenty thousand a year and Harvey was offering me ten. I said, “Okay, Harvey. I’ll join you on Mad.” Harvey said, “I’m not with Mad anymore.” I said, “Harvey, I just burned my bridges behind me. How can you tell me this?” Harvey said, “Don’t worry, Al. I have something working and will get back to you very soon. Don’t worry and sit tight.” He did get back to me, and said that Hugh Hefner was going to hire us all to do Trump magazine, and that we’d all be put on a freelance salary. It was approximately what Harvey had previously offered me... about twelve thousand a year, and that lasted until Trump was cancelled. That’s how I left Timely Comics.

I went into their office at Lafayette Street, and was warmly greeted by Jerry de Fuccio and Al Feldstein. After a while, Bill Gaines called me into his office, sat down next to me on the couch with all the Humbug books, and said, “I’m going to go through these, and you point out to me which is your work.” I did, and then he turned to Al and said, “Al, hire him.” They bought all my scripts and gave them to artists like Bob Clarke and George Woodbridge. I didn’t get to do any artwork because I think John Putnam didn’t like my art. They were used to good people at EC, and, just in passing, I never got any work as an artist unless I wrote the script. I got “Inferior Man” because I wrote it. Eventually, I did all my work at Timely because I wrote things. They could have given Patsy Walker to anybody. They had me draw Super Rabbit because I wrote it. My writing sort-of carried my art career on its back. I don’t think anybody thought I was a good artist. JA: Oh, I don’t know. I always liked your stuff. JAFFEE: Well, you’re either Jack Davis or you’re not. JA: But that means everybody else in the world is in a different category. [laughs] JAFFEE: Yeah, but you’re either Mort Drucker or you’re not. Let’s face it, there are guys like Mort, and Jack Davis, and Jack Kirby, and many, many others, who are just naturally-born cartoonists and illustrators. Then, there are those of us who just trained ourselves to do things. I was fortunate that I could marry my style of artwork to my style of writing. It turned out to be a pretty good marriage in most cases. JA: But that’s no small thing. JAFFEE: I’m not saying it’s a small thing, but you’re very

JA: So how did you get started with Mad? JAFFEE: I did a few small pieces for Harvey while he was at Mad, before he made the offer to switch. He liked what I had done, and that’s when he made me that offer. I knew Al Feldstein from before, but didn’t know Bill Gaines or any of the other people there. I just knew Harvey, Willy Elder, and John Severin, and only just from our school days. After Hefner folded Trump, Harvey created Humbug, and we all invested in it. We ran that for about fourteen months, but we couldn’t get it going, and went out of business. That’s when I created a comic feature named Tall Tales and was doing that. As I got it started, I received all my script material that hadn’t been used in Humbug. There must have been a dozen scripts, all written in great faith and all that. I took a chance, called up Feldstein, and said, “Al, I don’t know if you consider me the enemy or what, but I have a lot of scripts that I wrote for Humbug. If you’re at all interested, I’ll be happy to bring them all down.” He said, “Come on down.”

“It Was A Fun Time!” fortunate if you can do it. Dave Berg always did it, Sergio Aragonés and Will Eisner have always done it. There are people who’ve always done it, and you’re right, it’s no small thing. JA: And your talent certainly parlayed itself into a wonderful career for you. You know, when I was a kid at the newsstand, I used to buy the Mads that weren’t folded. I’d find one that was already folded to check out the other picture you’d drawn. JAFFEE: Of course. It made yours more valuable if you didn’t fold it. I always made color copies of mine. And I really do believe it might have been harmful to sales. To tell you the truth, when I made the first fold-in submission to Feldstein, I said, “Al, I know you’re not going to buy this, because it

mutilates the magazine. But I wanted to show it to you because I’m intrigued with the idea, and thought you might be, too.” And he was. Al was very receptive to new ideas. Some people might say differently because they couldn’t succeed in selling things to Al, but I found that he could be very easily mesmerized by something if he thought it was good. He was immediately responsive to this idea. I did the first one with no intention of it becoming a regular feature. I figured, “We’ll mutilate one issue, and then they’ll forget about this thing.” One day, Al came over to me and said, “I really like the idea of a fold-in cover. Can you do another one?” I said, “Gee, I don’t think so. This is ridiculous, but I’ll try.” I worked and worked to come up with something, and the rest, as they say, is history.

AL JAFFEE Checklist [NOTE: Thanks yet again to A/E founder Jerry G. Bails for providing information from the online Who’s Who in 20th Century American Comic Books, which can be accessed at www.nostromo.no/whoswho/. The following is an abridged version of the Who’s Who listing. The names of comic book characters below are generally neither italicized nor put in quotations, because many features appeared in both in their own titles and in other magazines. Key: (a) = full art. (p) = pencils only. (i) = inks only. (w) = writer.] Full Name: Allan Jaffee, a.k.a. Al Jaffee (b. 1921) – artist, writer, editor

COMIC BOOK CREDITS (Mainstream U.S. Publishers): DC Comics & Affiliates: Illustrations (a) 1995

Pen Names: A Jay; A. J. (at Hillman)

Dell/Western: Brain Boy (layouts) 1962

Education: High School of Music and Art (New York City)

E.C. Publications: Mad magazine (w/a) 1955-94

Influences: Al Helfant

Hillman Periodicals: Wun Wing Spin [filler] (a) 1942 (may be through Ed Cronin’s packaging service)

Member: National Cartoonists Society Magazine Illustrations: Boy’s Life (25 years), The Electric Company (fold-in) 1970s (?)

Major Magazines & Affiliates: Cracked (w/a) late 1950s

Advertising for TV & Magazines: Benson & Hedges 1969–70; et al. Paperback: (w/a) The Ghoulish Book of Weird Records, 1979 Honor: National Cartoonists Society Best Advertising & Illustration, 1973 Syndicated Credits: Debbie Deere (wk/d)(w) 1966–69; Jason (w) 1971–74; Tall Tales (panel) (w/a) 1958–65 Comics in Other Publications: Funny Jokes (a) 1968 [paperback]; Little Annie Fanny (asst.) 1964–66 for Playboy

Staff: Marvel (1946–53) – editor (1948-49); Humbug (co-owner) 1958–59 (?) COMIC BOOK CREDITS (Alternate & Joint Publishers): A.C.E. Comics: Fantastic Adventures (a) 1987 (reprint)

Marvel/Timely & Affiliates: cartoons/funny animals (w/a) 1942, 1946–47; Cindy (a) 1950; covers (a) 1951-54; Georgie (p) 1948; Hedy Wolfe (a) 1951–56; The Imp (ghost a) c. 1942 [for Chad Grothkopf]; Jeanie (w/a) 1946–48; (w only) c. 1949; Nancy (a) 1953; Patsy Walker (w/a) 1949–56; Silly Seal and Ziggy Pig (separately & together) (w/a) 1942–43; Squat Car Squad (w/a) 1942–43; Super Rabbit (w/z) 1946–47; teen/family fun (w/a) 1948–56; Terry-Toons (p) 1946; The Walkers (a) 1953–55

Playboy Press/HMH Publishing Co.: Trump (w/a) 1957 Quality Comics: Candy (ghost p) early 1950s (for Gill Fox); Inferior Man (a) 1941-42, through Ed Cronin’s packaging service [Al Jaffee is also the writer and artist of at least eleven Warner Books paperbacks, featuring either new material or reprints from Mad magazine, all with his name in the title, between 1974 and 1988.]

Title Comic Fandom Archive

Fandom Across The Puddle A/E’ Interviews South African Comics Fan JOHN WRIGHT by Bill Schelly Introduction to Part One John Wright owns the unique status of being the only active comics fan in the 1960s who lived in South Africa. He even managed to publish two issues of his own fanzine, The Komix, as well as writing for Star-Studded Comics. He subsequently went on to become a professional writer for both print and radio. However, the focus of this interview is on his interest in comic strips and books, and what it was like to link up with American fandom from far-flung Port Elizabeth. As such, it affords U.S. readers a glimpse of a different kind of fan experience. This interview was conducted in late October 2003 via email, and will be serialized over this and the next issue of Alter Ego.

without a home-cooked meal. BS: How did you become a fan of comics? Was it first with comic strips, and then comic books? WRIGHT: No. I have no recollection of discovering newspaper strips until I was about eight or nine. I was probably five years old—a short while before starting kindergarten—when my sister brought home the first comic book I’m really conscious of seeing. I’ve never forgotten the cover, but it wasn’t until recently that, thanks to my good and longtime friend Howard Siegel, I was able to identify it as Superman #4. Soon my nose was wedged in Blue Bolt, Target, and any others I could find

As for strips, I remember The Phantom, Blondie, Prince Valiant, Popeye, Mickey John Wright in 1964, about the time he wrote his first novel—above the Mouse, and a few others when I covers of the slightly earlier Action Comics #1, All-Star Western #7, and BILL SCHELLY: Tell us a little was growing up. But it was Alex Batman #9. Those are the numbers of the South African editions, of course, about your beginnings. Raymond’s Rip Kirby, in the first as per the symbol at the upper left of the covers; they still bear the Comics issue of a local weekly newspaper, Code seal, though.. All photos accompanying this interview are courtesy of JOHN WRIGHT: I was born The Saturday Evening Post, that John Wright. [Art ©2004 DC Comics.] September 8, 1933, in South Africa really grabbed me. For pretty for all intents and purposes, derived obvious reasons the “Saturday” in the logo was soon dropped. from Irish and Welsh stock. My mom worked as a pharmacist’s assistant, but mostly as housewife and mother. She was the lady to whom all in BS: Were there local strips produced that we never saw in America? the neighborhood came for help. At age ten my dad started work in a WRIGHT: To the best of my knowledge, very few. Those that were bakery, and during the Depression as a truck driver. Along the way he produced were usually in the Afrikaans language, and the finest and became a motor mechanic, but wound up his life building roads, tennis most famous came from Thomas Ochse (Pietie) Honiball, who signed courts, and a variety of concrete structures. During World War II, he his work “O.Honiball.” Honiball, incidentally, worked in Chicago a few served as a dispatch rider. years prior to 1930, when he returned to South Africa. Mom and Dad were the kind who would give their BS: I would imagine that American comic books last to anyone with a greater need. I have many were hard to find during World War II, once memories, some strange, most warm... such as a the U.S. was fully involved in it. late night call by a Chinese lady, frantic because her daughter was in labor and experiWRIGHT: During the war, the only comics encing problems. Of my dad slipping money I saw were those that drifted my way from to people society regarded as bums... of a American warships that had stopped at Port house which, at weekends during WWII, was Elizabeth to take on supplies. Then, with peace filled with young folk in uniform, brought home returning, American comics began filtering back by my older brother and sister who were also in to this side of the puddle. The first I service. I’ll never know how Mom could found, at a railway kiosk, was an issue John Wright’s mother and father… a great influence on his life. afford to feed them, but none ever left

John Wright of Black Hood, priced at one shilling and sixpence—about 30¢ U.S. A ridiculous price for kids at that time. But I was fortunate to have had that much, so I bought it. Boy, was I disappointed, dismayed, and confused! The book had fewer pages, and the artwork was nothing like I remembered. This wasn’t the Black Hood I liked so much. And what happened to TopNotch? BS: Were you ever able to get any back issues of comics published in the early 1940s? WRIGHT: Saturday mornings, if a kid was fortunate enough to be given an allowance, were devoted to a morning matinee at either the Grand or the Embassy. My kid brother Brian and I were on our way to the Grand. That Saturday we got off the bus a stop or two sooner so that we might visit the American Mail Company, to see what new comics they might have—none we’d be able to afford. First thing we saw upon stepping into that small but rather elite bookstore was this mountain of comics dumped on the floor, smack in the center of the front showroom. For I don’t know how long, we stood gaping. Eventually, I was able to ask the woman in charge what the comics were priced at. “Fourpence each,” she replied. Which was roughly 6H¢ U.S.

39 Years later, I would discover that those old comics were being brought in as ships’ ballast, sold off at so much per ton—that most had possibly come from donations Americans had made to waste paper salvage drives during the war. BS: Can you sketch for us a brief history of the comic book industry in South Africa, as context? When did they start, were they imported or locally printed, etc.?

WRIGHT: It was always a sort-of “here today, gone tomorrow” industry. Sometime in the late ’50s, companies—or one company using names such as Mimosa, Atlas, and Zebra—began reprinting certain DC titles, translating them into Afrikaans. Batman became Mantelman—The Green Arrow, Die Groen Pyl—while others, such as Superman, were left unchanged. Not long later, straight reprints of Superman, Batman, Detective, Western, Mystery in Space, and possibly a few others appeared. But, as I said, they seemed to come and go, often re-appearing in slightly changed format. Initially all John was an admirer of the wartime adventures of MLJ’s Black Hood reprints were in black-&-white, with in Top Notch Comics. This house ad is from Shield-Wizard Comics #5 full-color covers printed on the same (Fall 1941)—a time at which South Africa, as a member of the British stock. Afterwards the books were all Empire, was at war with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. Artists in color. In between, there must have unknown. Thanks to Jim Amash. [©2004 Archie Comic Publications.] been a few Dell titles reprinted as well, but to date I’ve found only one: 77 Sunset Strip.

All thoughts of the double bill and the latest episode of the movie serial were abandoned as we ploughed into that mountain of paper. Every comic was what we would later refer to as “pre-war”—all 64pagers. Any title you could wish to name was probably there—and many first editions to boot! The likes of Fawcett’s Gift Comics and Xmas also cost no more than fourpence! The books were second-hand, but all in very fine condition. Some might have the rubber stamp of a Chicago barber, or a paper sticker from a deli in Cleveland, but it mattered not. We bought all our weekly 15-cent allowance could handle, and grabbed the next bus home, hoping against hope that Mom might see the starved expressions we wore and find it in her heart to extend a few more cents for another fast visit to the American Mail Company. BS: Did American Mail just get that one shipment, or were there more? WRIGHT: For a long time afterward, American Mail continued to offer pre-war editions, at the same price and in the same fashion. Then a few other small stores were also selling them, but in very limited quantities. Life changed from then on. Marvelous discoveries were made. The very early versions of “Batman” we’d never seen before, characters until then unheard of. We’d ride our bikes for miles seeking out new sources of supplies, selling empty bottles for a penny each, and old newspapers for a penny a pound in order to earn money for additional purchases. Sundays, after church, we’d mount our bikes and scour neighborhoods, searching for kids who might be interested in trading comics. At Saturday matinees there were always small bunches of kids conducting trades. Wonderful times.

I never paid much attention to these reprints, chiefly because of a loyalty to the originals. The attitude was born, I think, after purchasing a certain pulp magazine and discovering all the advertisements were for British products, that what I’d bought was not the real McCoy. I felt gypped. Two rather interesting reprint books were issued somewhere in the ’60s—boasting simple three-color covers and black-&-white interiors. One was devoted to The Phantom and Rip Kirby, and the other to Judd Saxon and The Heart of Juliet Jones. I know of no others that were ever issued. Several years ago a colleague, a fellow named Johan Roux, wrote and drew a feature called “Dragon Force,” which was published in Charlton Bullseye. BS: How were comic books displayed and sold in your country? Were there corner candy stores like in the U.S., or drug stores with newsstands? Or were they sold in another type of venue? WRIGHT: In a very different type, I’d imagine. While I was growing up, there was still a very strong British influence in this country, and “American Comics” were frowned upon, particularly by teachers. More often than not, they were regarded as trash. British comic weeklies were, however, available at any of the “better” bookstores. I had little liking for most. The only titles I ever bought were Film Fun (because of the Laurel & Hardy strip), Radio Fun, and another, because it carried a page featuring the famous Western star Ken Maynard. I was often in trouble for bringing comic books to school, to trade with a couple of other kids. If your tastes ran more toward Action, Top-Notch, or Target, you

Comics Fandom Archive

had to prowl the cafés, the fish and chip shops, the occasional general store, the struggling bookstores, and sometimes even shoe repair stores. Most cafés were really only stores that sold some of the stuff you’d find in delicatessens, candy, cigarettes, cold drinks, fruit, and the “more respectable” newspapers and magazines. Many also offered freshly fried fish and chips, and they’d have strings running a foot or so above head height across the open floor area. Comic books were straddled over these, looking like colorful washing hung to dry. Need I mention that all too often the odor those books carried let you know where they’d come from? There were, of course, the genuine cafés. But they weren’t the kind that attracted kids.

subjects, dumb things like “My Holiday on the Farm.” None of the kids I knew had ever seen a farm. So if a “Your Choice” was available, that’s the route I’d take—and later catch hell for writing about gangsters and spies and other assorted heavies. The odd thing was that, when school plays were needed, I was the mug who got elected to the job.

I’m not sure why, but I think I first got the notion to write after viewing a movie in which Tyrone Power portrayed a war correspondent, and Edmund Gwenn a leprechaun. But it was not until I was fourteen, and in my first full-time job, that I attempted a short story. I wrote two, one called, s’help me, “Ain’t Nobody Honest.” Both sold to a new magazine titled Yours. And then it was Other places simply had a small stack parked at the end of a counter. None were some ten years later before I sold another— One South African title reprinted the comic strips ever displayed in racks. Jossie’s, a café owned which was while hoboing around what was Judd Saxon and Stan Drake’s The Heart of Juliet by an Indian family, used the wash line then the Rhodesias. Also earned a few bucks Jones. The latter ran for several decades, beginning method of display, but where all stores simply contributing to the sports pages of a couple in 1953.[©2004 the respective copyright holders.] sold the books at a sixpence—about a dime— of newspapers. Then, after returning to Port each, Jossie also ran an exchange system. If you returned a comic in Elizabeth, another short in order to finance an engagement ring. good nick and paid in a penny, you could get another—from a pile kept BS: How did you manage to have a full-time job at fourteen? under a counter. Money was always scarce, so Jossie’s got a lot of my business.

BS: When did you realize you wanted to become a writer? How did that interest first express itself, and what were your ambitions? WRIGHT: Certainly not at school. I disliked essays because, though mine received fairly respectable marks, the subject matter was seldom ever approved. Usually students were given a choice of three or four

WRIGHT: Much against my parents’ wishes, I quit school at fourteen, after only one year at the technical college. My dad had notions of me studying electrical engineering. Me, I had no liking for any of the trades—yet wound up managing companies which were totally involved, not only in the marketing of engineering, construction, and electrical equipment, but also in the contracting side of the game.

John Wright

I hesitate to mention this because it may sound boastful, though I believe Someone might have been smiling upon me, teaching me something... because at age 26 I had qualified electrical, mechanical and irrigation engineers, certified accountants, and tradesmen working under me. There’s a situation to keep you on your toes!

Simon whose work I’d always admired.

Anyway, at fourteen I was holding down a fulltime job. At nineteen I was traveling around the Rhodesias, keeping one step ahead of the immigration authorities, working as a nightclub photographer, a trainer at a judo school, racing stock cars... anything to earn a buck. The day I turned twenty-one I had only $1.25 in my pocket and no work in sight. Nor any friends.

Jerry, in typical fashion, replied with the same sort of speed, sending along a copy of the first issue of Alter-Ego. Later he offered a great deal of help in purchasing comic books on my behalf, because at the time none were being imported into South Africa. Jerry also acted as agent for The Komix, until the pressure of so many other worthy projects made it necessary for him to hand the job to another.

Several months later I was back in Port Elizabeth, having been able to do so without my parents learning of the fix I’d been in. But while away, my old pal Harry had conned my kid brother out of just about everything in my collection.

Not only did I receive a prompt reply, followed by a few samples of Sick, but also in his letter Joe Simon told of having just received a magazine devoted to comic books. Believing I might be interested, he gave me the address of Jerry Bails.

“I also didn’t care much for working for a boss, and wrote Suddenly You’re Dead.” The cover of John’s first novel, in the mid-1960s… written under the name Wade Wright. [Cover art ©2004 the respective copyright holders.]

BS: What about local comic fans? Did you know others who collected and shared your enthusiasm, or was most of your inter-fan contact done through the mails with fans in the United States?

I never took writing seriously until I was married and for the first time in my life found myself owing someone money. Coral and I decided to forego a wedding reception which we’d have had to finance, and instead used the money as a deposit on a house. Only after the building was complete did I experience the uncomfortable sensation of a mortgage around my neck. Which is when I decided I didn’t like it—that I also didn’t care much for working for a boss, and wrote Suddenly You’re Dead.

WRIGHT: As a kid I knew many who collected and traded, but as an adult, none. That is, not until discovering the world of comics fandom. One of those boyhood pals used comics to operate what was probably the most expensive lending library in the world. Al Capone would have been proud of Harry. Most of my inter-fan contact was through the mails with fans in the States, and a couple in Britain. A very important and valued friendship was with another “colonial,” my digger mate John Ryan.

BS: How did you first hear about comic fandom? And how did you link up with it?

[Next issue, Bill Schelly continues his interview with John Wright, as the South African talks about the creation of his fanzine The Komix, heroes such as The White Dragon and Union Jack, and his comradeship with American fans.

WRIGHT: While flipping through a copy of Writer’s Market, I stumbled across an entry for Sick—a competitor to Mad—and saw that a Joe Simon was listed as editor. Joe Simon! That was a name that had always held a very special but inexplicable meaning for me. One of the first comic books I had encountered was Blue Bolt. Later, I’d get to discover Captain America, The Boy Commandos, “The Duke of Broadway,” Stuntman, and other great features created by Simon and Kirby. I know not why, but always I had the notion that Mr. Simon was the creator of the most famous of the star-spangled heroes. Anyway, that night I wrote him a letter, asking if he might be the Joe

[Bill Schelly’s latest book, Words of Wonder: The Life and Times of Otto Binder, has been getting rave reviews from comics fans and professionals alike. Copies can be purchased by sending $21.00 (price includes postage) in check or money order to: Hamster Press, P.O. Box 27471, Seattle, WA 98165. Our intrepid Associate Editor’s other fine books are displayed on his website www.billschelly.com, and can be bought on line using PayPal.]

A studio publicity photo of novelist John Wright some years back—flanked by drawings of two of the first and biggest influences on his fannish days. (Left:) Dr. Jerry Bails, founder of Alter Ego (and indeed in a sense of comic fandom itself); and (right:) the late John Ryan of Australia, had his own fanzine, Down Under, in the 1960s. The portrait of JBG was done by Bill Schelly for his book The Golden Age of Comic Fandom; Ken Doke’s (Dove’s?) portrait of Ryan appeared in the latter’s 1979 volume Panel by Panel: An Illustrated History of Australian Comics. (We’ve been trying to get in touch with John Ryan’s heirs for some time now… but no luck. Any help out there?) [JGB art ©2004 Bill Schelly; Ryan picture ©2004 the respective copyright holders.]

No. 94 April 2004

Marc Swayze’s “We didn’t Know... It Was the Golden Age!”

Capt. Gary’s Big Bang, pt. II A Farewell to Les Tremayne

Marc Swayze 1939... what a year! It was on September 25th that Fawcett Publications named their first editor of comics... Bill Parker. About the same time, and not many doors away, arrangements were under way at the Bell Syndicate to distribute a new newspaper comic strip, the brainchild of artist Russell Keaton.

At Fawcett, when the talents of Parker were combined with those of artist C.C. Beck, the ultimate result became the top-selling comic book character of the 1940s, Captain Marvel. At Bell the culmination was Flyin’ Jenny, blonde aviatrix who was to grace comic strip pages of newspapers across the land, and, translated to six foreign languages, was distributed widely abroad.

[FCA EDITOR’S NOTE: From 1941-53, Marcus D. Swayze was a top artist for Fawcett Comics. The very first Mary Marvel character sketches came from Marc’s drawing table, and he illustrated her earliest adventures, including the classic Mary Marvel origin story “Captain Marvel Introduces Mary Marvel” (CMA #18, Dec. ’42); but he was primarily hired by Fawcett Publications to illustrate Captain Marvel stories and covers for Whiz Comics and Captain Marvel Adventures. He also wrote many Captain Marvel scripts, and continued to do so while in the military. After he left the service in 1944, Marc made an arrangement with Fawcett to produce art and stories for them on a freelance basis out of his Louisiana home. There he created both art and story for The Phantom Eagle in Wow Comics, in addition to drawing the Flyin’ Jenny newspaper strip for Bell Syndicate (created by his friend and mentor Russell Keaton). After the cancellation of Wow, Swayze produced artwork for Fawcett’s top-selling line of romance comics. After the company ceased publishing comics, he moved over to Charlton Publications, where he ended his comics career in the mid-’50s. Marc’s ongoing professional memoirs have been FCA’s most popular feature since his first column appeared in FCA #54, 1996. Last issue, he looked back on his days illustrating The Phantom Eagle – and how the courageous young aviator possessing no super-powers often had to resort to the use of his fists. This time, Marc further examines his affiliation with the Flyin’ Jenny newspaper strip... including a rare meeting with a certain red-suited hero that he also drew! —P.C. Hamerlinck.]

“Raghead,” the second character from left, was suggested by Marc Swayze to Flyin’ Jenny creator/writer/artist Russell Keaton while Marc was assisting on the strip. Panel from the May 12, 1940, strip by Russell Keaton. [©2004 Bell Syndicate.]

You could almost say... with the help of a bit of imagination... that Captain Marvel and Flyin’ Jenny got into comics simultaneously. Also me. By coincidence alone, during those closing months of ’39... in another part of the world... I was graduating from Louisiana Tech, resuming my career at the reins of a milk wagon, and eventually reporting for my first job as an assistant artist. In time I was to draw story art and covers featuring Captain Marvel. I also wrote, beginning while still residing within walking distance of the Fawcett offices. But I never wrote a line of Flyin’ Jenny script... never had the opportunity. It was early 1940... the feature still less than half a year in print. Keaton had not reached the point where the plotting seemed to be a torturous chore. After my suggestion for the little magician “Raghead” was accepted, there was no encouragement for more of the same... no need for it. Five or six years later, I held before me a small drawing from a folder titled “Characters.” It was a hasty sketch that I had never been able to pass without pausing… a face... that stared at me with a miserable expression that clearly said, “Please... can’t you find a place for me?”

I sent that sketch... and my thoughts about it... the strip’s writer, Glenn Chaffin. Glenn, the amiable, easy-to-work-with pro that he was, took it right up. We kicked the idea back and forth by phone and mail until Jenny was finally written into the throes of a large flesh-eating plant. Beyond the earshot of her companions Scoop, Timber, and Red

We Didn’t Know... It Was The Golden Age!

Marc Swayze introduced Flyin’ Jenny originator Russell Keaton (seen at left in 1943 with the Army Air Corps Reserve) to “Captain Marvel” artist/co-creator C.C. Beck in 1941 in New York City… and at right is Beck talking comic books with another industry legend, Stan Lee, at a Miami comics convention in 1979. Photos provided by Marc Swayze and P.C. Hamerlinck, respectively.

Swayze’s original “Unk” sketch that was sent to Glenn Chaffin at the Bell Syndicate in 1945. The photocopier failed to reproduce two handwritten messages on the sketch. At the top was Marc’s note: “Glenn—Send him back, will you? —M.” (because it wasn’t so easy to make copies of artwork sixty years ago as it is today). Chaffin’s response at bottom: “The guy’s terrific. –G.” And so a character in the newspaper comic strip Flyin’ Jenny was born. [©2004 Bell Syndicate.]

Richmint, her cries for help were answered by a strange creature whose vocabulary consisted of one word... “UNK!” It was the ugly guy from my character file! Jenny was not the only one in a tough situation now. So was I. I had been in the business long enough to know that strict taboos existed... in those days. One being: you didn’t want to depict anything that might cause your reader to gasp, clamp the pages together, thrust the paper aside, and call in a subscription cancellation. I had started the whole thing... and now here I was with a script that called for a horrible character... that wasn’t too horrible... frightening, but not too frightening, weird but not too weird. It was not part of the game to even consider a footnote telling your reader that Unk was really a nice fellow... an intellectual suffering from temporary amnesia. I don’t know how I managed to scramble... draw... out of that one. Jenny was rescued according to the script, and Unk came on stage thereafter to be with us many issues, creating a respectable following for himself.

Marc Swayze

An historic first meeting of Flyin’ Jenny and Captain Marvel, drawn by Marc Swayze in December 2003. Marc says, “Forgive the drawing. I’m ninety, you know!” Don’t apologize, Marc—it looks great! [Art ©2004 Marc Swayze; Flyin’ Jenny TM & ©2004 Bell Syndicate; Captain Marvel TM & ©2004 DC Comics.]

My major interest along the way having been Captain Marvel... and Mary... I had not kept up with Flyin’ Jenny, nor correspondence with creator Keaton, when I entered the Bell offices in 1944. It was surprising to learn that the Jenny daily strip was being drawn by Gladys Parker, and the Sunday page by Keaton... that he had signed up for service with the Air Corps Reserves and they had been looking for me to draw the page.

It is impossible to refrain from comparing the two fictional characters, Captain Marvel and Flyin’ Jenny, around whom so much of my professional life was framed. Those early years of WWII had been generous to the World’s Mightiest Mortal, in his phenomenal rise in popularity. But Flyin’ Jenny had not fared so well. Gladys Parker, creator of a syndicated one-panel daily feature Mopsy, was superb in that category. But Flyin’ Jenny, daily and Sunday, had been drawn by Russell Keaton since its inception. A tough act to follow!

Monthly! Edited and published by Robin Snyder

Two talented creators met in 1941 when Russell Keaton was on a visit in New York City and I had the pleasure of introducing him and C.C. Beck. But Captain Marvel and Flyin’ Jenny never met. It now comes to mind, however, that maybe it isn’t too late. Having been so closely affiliated at one time or another with both characters, it might be my responsibility to dust off the old drawing board and rectify the situation here and now... for these very pages! [Marc Swayze shares more memories of the Golden Age with us next issue.]

Write to: Robin Snyder, 2284 Yew St. Rd. #B6, Bellingham, WA 98226-8899

Les Tremayne

Les Tremayne, a.k.a. ‘Mentor’

by Richard Lee and P.C. Hamerlinck Although the character of Mentor never existed in the classic Fawcett “Captain Marvel” stories from the Golden Age, Mentor was a familiar face to millions of television viewers of the 1974-1977 Filmation liveaction children’s show Shazam! on CBS. Mentor was played by veteran character actor Les Tremayne, whose baritone, silken voice was heard on radio for years preceding the advent of the World’s Mightiest Mortal in comic form, and decades before Captain Marvel would be seen on television. Les Tremayne died on December 19, 2003, at the age of 90 in Los Angeles. Born in April 1913 in Balham, England, Tremayne immigrated to the United States and began working in show business very early in life. He later pursued theater and voice acting on radio shows. He got his big break in Chicago, and soon after worked with a then-relatively unknown performer named Jackie Gleason. Tremayne estimated that he had worked on more than 30,000 radio broadcasts, with up to 45 shows a week in the 1930s. He was best known for his starring roles in The Thin Man, The Falcon, and, most notably, The First Nighter. He was inducted into the Radio Hall of Fame in 1995. Tremayne’s film work included the role of General Mann in the 1953 film adaptation of H.G. Wells’ War of the Worlds and the flustered auctioneer who argued with Cary Grant in Alfred Hitchcock’s North by Northwest (1959). In television he played Inspector Richard Queen on the 1958-59 NBC series Ellery Queen. The 1975-76 cast of Shazam!: Les Tremayne as Mentor, John Davey as Captain Marvel, and Michael Grey as Billy Batson.

However, it was the Saturday morning television-watching generation who best remember him as Mentor, the mysterious elderly character who brought sage wisdom to young Billy Batson (Michael Gray) and Billy’s alter ego Captain Marvel (Jackson Bostwick, first season; John Davey, 2nd-3rd seasons) while they traveled the nation in an Open Road motor home emblazoned with a lightning bolt on the hood. When encountering dangerous situations on the highways and byways, it was often Mentor who said to Billy that the “proper authorities” needed to be notified. Mentor would summon the police or highway patrol on the motor home’s cellular phone (long before cell phones were in wide use) while Billy shouted “Shazam!” to summon the immortal powers of “the Elders” to become Captain Marvel. In his later years, Tremayne told Shazam! fan Richard Lee that people still remembered him as “that old guy in the motor home” who traveled with Billy Batson.

In 1976 Uncle Dudley, who back in the 1940s had doubled as Uncle Marvel, became “Mentor,” as writer E. Nelson Bridwell brought elements of the TV series into DC’s Shazam! comic. This panel, drawn by Kurt Schaffenberger, is from issue #26 (Nov.-Dec. 1976). [©2004 DC Comics.]

In an attempt to boost sales, and banking on the phenomenal success of the television series, DC Comics began to incorporate the character of Mentor and other themes from the TV program within the Shazam! comic book. This was masterfully accomplished without destroying the basic concept and mythos behind the character. Beginning in Shazam! #26 (Nov.-Dec. 1976) writer E. Nelson Bridwell (along with artist Kurt Schaffenberger) had Mr. Morris, Billy’s boss at station WHIZ, assign Batson to tour the country producing specials on America’s youth. The old wizard Shazam (who, in the television show’s greatest absurdity, was totally omitted from the program) ordained Uncle Dudley (now sporting a mustache and new clothes to resemble Tremayne’s character)

Les Tremayne

to become Billy’s “Mentor” during his travels on the road. Tremayne (who at the time of his death, was—with his wife Joan—working on a book relating his life and times) told Richard Lee that he was proud of his affiliation with Shazam!, since the characters worked with the police and gave the audience a good moral message. During its original airing in the ’70s, Shazam! was one of CBS’ highest-rated programs. The show has enjoyed a revival of sorts the past couple of years, with several episodes being replayed of cable television’s TVLand. Tremayne also told Lee about one occasion where he made a public appearance to promote Shazam! A quiet, young child saw him at the public event, yet he wasn’t quite sure if it was really “Mentor” or not. He looked at the coat to see if it was the same one that Tremayne wore on the show. When he recognized the face of Tremayne as Mentor, the child gave him a hug and clung to him. For Tremayne, it was probably the most poignant moment associated with his work on Shazam!… and a testimony of how much the show positively impacted thousands of children.

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COMICS’ GOLDEN AGE LIVES AGAIN!

Michael Gray (Billy Batson) & Les Tremayne (Mentor), in a photo autographed for FCA editor P.C. Hamerlinck.

COMMANDO YANK BLACK TERROR AVENGER PHANTOM LADY CAT-MAN DAREDEVIL CRIMEBUSTER CAPTAIN FLASH MR. SCARLET SPY SMASHER SKYMAN STUNTMAN THE OWL BULLETMAN FIGHTING YANK PYROMAN GREEN LAMA THE EAGLE IBIS The Original GHOST RIDER

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The above is just a partial list of characters that have appeared in AC Comics’ reprint titles such as MEN OF MYSTERY, GOLDEN AGE GREATS, and AMERICA’S GREATEST COMICS. Virtually all issues published to date are available at $6.95 each. To find over 100 quality Golden Age reprints, go to the AC Comics website at <accomics.com>.

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Mark Lewis & Bill Fugate

Capt. Gary’s Big Bang An Homage to Ages Golden and Silver: Part II by P.C. Hamerlinck [INTRODUCTION: Last issue we presented an overview of Big Bang Comics, the nostalgically-oriented title created by Gary Carlson and Chris Ecker more than a decade ago, with such heroes as Mighty Man, Thunder Girl, The Knights of Justice, The Knight Watchman, and others, harking back to the Golden (and occasionally Silver) Age of Comics. Part I presented primarily Gary Carlson’s account. This time, we feature the viewpoints of two of the main artists of Big Bang Comics: Mark Lewis (who has also penciled several FCA covers of late, as you probably noticed) and Bill Fugate. —PCH.]

MARK LEWIS Big Bang Comics’ Mark Lewis feels there’s a perception that Big Bang Comics is simply note-for-note riffs on existing characters, but the artist begs to differ. “Big Bang is comics history through a funhouse mirror,” Lewis says. “There’s a sense of deja vu about it, but there are also key divergences from whatever archetypes the characters may be based on. If they were just note-for-note swipes or retreads, then you’d know how every story came out and there’d be no point to doing them in the first place.” Lewis—who usually works on animated cartoons and a roster that

includes X-Men (early ’90s series, working closely with Frank Brunner), Fantastic Four (’90s version, second season), Real Adventures of Johnny Quest, four Scooby Doo direct-to-video features, Duck Dodgers, and the Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman feature—believes Gary Carlson was way ahead in the game when interest in proverbial “retro” comics began to surface. Big Bang debuted in early ’94 when grimmer books dominated the comics racks. “Whether acknowledged or not,” Lewis says of Carlson, “he’s plainly been an influence on other creators who’ve tried to revisit the heroic ideals of the characters of the past.” Is Big Bang something of a love letter to the comics of the past? “Absolutely,” agrees Lewis. “Gary’s managed to get some very talented artists to draw stories simply out of sheer love for the medium—and the super-hero genre in particular.” A 2000 Big Bang Christmas card featuring Thunder Girl, drawn by Mark Lewis (with a police officer who bears a resemblance to a certain Big Red Cheese). [©2004 Gary Carlson & Chris Ecker.]

For Lewis, drawing a Big Bang story is like going back in a time machine and tapping into some of that energy and magic that was

Capt. Gary’s Big Bang

The splash and another page of the company’s JSA-homage group, drawn by Bill Fugate for the Big Bang Comics Summer Special #1 (Aug. 2003). What better name could there be for the Nazi equivalent of Captain Marvel Jr. than “Hitler Youth”!? [©2004 Gary Carlson & Chris Ecker.]

present in old comics. “A ‘Thunder Girl’ script evokes visuals of C.C. Beck’s or Kurt Schaffenberger’s work before my pencil even comes near a piece of bristol board,” says Lewis. Drawing a Big Bang story can also be an education in comics history. Lewis will earnestly study whatever artist he’s attempting to ghost. “Over the course of the series I’ve had the chance to try on the hats of Simon & Kirby, Jack Kirby (solo), C.C. Beck, H.G. Peter, E.E. Hibbard, Shelly Moldoff, early Alex Toth and Carmine Infantino, Jack Burnley, Bernard Baily, and Gil Kane. Doing this requires you to step outside your own artistic ego and into someone else’s in order to pull it off. You’re forced to think in different ways from what you’re used to. Every single time I learn something new that I can apply back to my own work.” On Fawcett’s “Captain Marvel” stories, particularly those drawn by C.C. Beck, Lewis adds, “There’s something I learned in animation from looking at storyboards that also applies to comics: take a look at your favorite comics and try to follow what’s going on without looking at any dialogue or captions; when the artist has correctly done their job, you should be able to track what’s going on in the story. Try this test on an old ‘Captain Marvel’ tale and see how well the strip holds up. The writers wrote Cap in a world that resembled the one in which the readers lived, yet incredible things could happen. I believe the reason it worked is because they gave Cap’s world its own internal logic and stuck to it. The stories and artwork on ‘Captain Marvel’ could not have complemented each other any better. Each was reinforcing the other,

doing the same things: one verbally and the other visually. It was a perfect synthesis of elements that made for a great strip.”

BILL FUGATE Born in 1954 in Kentucky, artist Bill Fugate remembers the first comics he read were Sunday newspaper strips like Li’l Abner, Smilin’ Jack, Peanuts, and Dick Tracy (which was in a quasi-science-fiction stage at the time). He discovered comic books soon thereafter with Superman, Batman, Mickey Mouse… and then in the ’60s with the emergence of Marvel Comics and Ditko’s Spider-Man and Kirby’s Captain America. Drawing since the age of three, Fugate’s formal training consisted of the ‘Famous Artists’ correspondence course and a couple of life drawing classes when he attended college. He soon found an outlet for his talents with a variety of low-distributed small press comics (most notably a strip for Reed Waller and Kate Worley’s Omaha, the Cat Dancer) and some fanzine work (including The Comic Reader). He eventually landed penciling work for various Disney comics: Mickey, Goofy, Roger Rabbit’s Toontown (where he drew most of the “Jessica Rabbit” stories), The Little Mermaid, and odds and ends on Darkwing Duck, Duck Tales, Goof Troop, and Tailspin. Fugate’s artwork effectively tells the story clearly, economically, and

Mark Lewis & Bill Fugate

expressively, harkening a great deal to C.C. Beck’s work. “Naturally, I have a real fondness and admiration for C.C. Beck’s work on ‘Captain Marvel,’” Fugate said recently, “so I like being able to pay homage to that. I learned a lot trying to imitate him. Beck was a genius with ‘less being more.’ His pages were beautifully designed.” Fugate’s clean brand of storytelling—laden with touches of Beck’s cartoon fundamentalism—made him Gary Carlson’s perfect choice to draw “Mighty Man” and “Thunder Girl” adventures in Big Bang. While his favorite artists consist of names like Capp, Eisner, Kirby, Everett, Sprang, and Fradon, he was actually influenced by the drawing in animated cartoons more than anything that he encountered in comic books. “I liked Mighty Mouse a lot... and later, Space Ghost.” Fugate finds little to be excited about with today’s mainstream comics. “I find the super-hero stuff to be a bit much,” he says. “I think they try too hard to be ‘realistic,’ and take themselves way too seriously. Old comics had a looseness and eclecticism that isn’t so much in evidence today. Comics once had a bigger and broader audience. Now most comics just target a very specific and small demographic and limit what they’re willing to do.”

Capt. Gary’s Big Bang

Fugate feels the comics produced by Fawcett Publications had the right ingredients. “The best Fawcett comics had a quality of freewheeling imagination and folksy good humor that really doesn’t have any parallel,” he says. “They had kind-of a small-town atmosphere somehow, even when the Marvel Family were off on other planets or fighting Nazis. They seemed to inhabit a kid-sized universe. Captain Marvel is certainly the most likable, personable, and down-to-earth of all the super-heroes. He could fly, he possessed the wisdom of Solomon … and the fact that one of his best friends was a talking tiger and one of his worst enemies was a talking worm was a definite plus in my book!” Fugate also admires the work of Charles Biro—not Crime Does Not Pay, but Boy Comics and Daredevil—“even after they got rid of Daredevil.” He also holds Dick Briefer’s Frankenstein series in high esteem, “especially the original version where the monster was really a monster.” The strip provided inspiration for Fugate’s own recent creation, Super Frankenstein, a drawing of which was seen last issue. “Briefer was certainly not in C.C. Beck’s league as an artist, but I liked the loose, cartoony style of his work... but one can’t say enough about Beck’s artwork... the whole visual style and personality with which he invested the ‘Captain Marvel’ stories. Modern comic artists would gain a lot by studying his work. I sure have.”

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STAN LEE gets roasted by SCHWARTZ, CLAREMONT, DAVID, ROMITA, BUSCEMA, and SHOOTER, ORDWAY and THOMAS on INFINITY, INC., IRWIN HASEN interview, unseen H.G. PETER Wonder Woman pages, the original Captain Marvel and Human Torch teamup, FCA with MARC SWAYZE, “Mr. Monster”, plus plenty of rare and unpublished art!

Featuring a never-reprinted SPIRIT story by WILL EISNER, the genesis of the SILVER AGE ATOM (with GARDNER FOX, GIL KANE, and JULIE SCHWARTZ), interviews with LARRY LIEBER and Golden Age great JACK BURNLEY, BOB KANIGHER, a new Fawcett Collectors of America section with MARC SWAYZE, C.C. BECK, and more! GIL KANE and JACK BURNLEY flip-covers!

Unseen ALEX ROSS and JERRY ORDWAY Shazam! art, 1953 interview with OTTO BINDER, the SUPERMAN/CAPTAIN MARVEL LAWSUIT, GIL KANE on The Golden Age of TIMELY COMICS, FCA with SWAYZE, BECK, and SCHAFFENBERGER, rare art by AYERS, BERG, BURNLEY, DITKO, RICO, SCHOMBURG, MARIE SEVERIN and more! ALEX ROSS & BILL EVERETT covers!

(80-page magazine) SOLD OUT (Digital Edition) $2.95

(100-page magazine) $5.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #6

ALTER EGO #7

ALTER EGO #8

Interviews with KUBERT, SHELLY MOLDOFF, and HARRY LAMPERT, BOB KANIGHER, life and times of GARDNER FOX, ROY THOMAS remembers GIL KANE, a history of Flash Comics, MOEBIUS Silver Surfer sketches, MR. MONSTER, FCA section with SWAYZE, BECK, and SCHAFFENBERGER, and lots more! Dual color covers by JOE KUBERT!

Celebrating the JSA, with interviews with MART NODELL, SHELLY MAYER, GEORGE ROUSSOS, BILL BLACK, and GIL KANE, unpublished H.G. PETER Wonder Woman art, GARDNER FOX, an FCA section with MARC SWAYZE, C.C. BECK, WENDELL CROWLEY, and more! Wraparound cover by CARMINE INFANTINO and JERRY ORDWAY!

GENE COLAN interview, 1940s books on comics by STAN LEE and ROBERT KANIGHER, AYERS, SEVERIN, and ROY THOMAS on Sgt. Fury, ROY on All-Star Squadron’s Golden Age roots, FCA section with SWAYZE, BECK, and WILLIAM WOOLFOLK, JOE SIMON interview, a definitive look at MAC RABOY’S work, and more! Covers by COLAN and RABOY!

Companion to ALL-STAR COMPANION book, with a JULIE SCHWARTZ interview, guide to JLA-JSA TEAMUPS, origins of the ALL-STAR SQUADRON, FCA section with MARC SWAYZE, C.C. BECK (on his 1970s DC conflicts), DAVE BERG, BOB ROGERS, more on MAC RABOY from his son, MR. MONSTER, and more! RICH BUCKLER and C.C. BECK covers!

WALLY WOOD biography, DAN ADKINS & BILL PEARSON on Wood, TOR section with 1963 JOE KUBERT interview, ROY THOMAS on creating the ALL-STAR SQUADRON and its 1940s forebears, FCA section with SWAYZE & BECK, MR. MONSTER, JERRY ORDWAY on Shazam!, JERRY DeFUCCIO on the Golden Age, CHIC STONE remembered! ADKINS and KUBERT covers!

(100-page magazine) $5.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

(100-page magazine) SOLD OUT (Digital Edition) $2.95

(100-page magazine) $5.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #9

ALTER EGO #10

ALTER EGO #11

ALTER EGO #12

ALTER EGO #13

JOHN ROMITA interview by ROY THOMAS (with unseen art), Roy’s PROPOSED DREAM PROJECTS that never got published (with a host of great artists), MR. MONSTER on WAYNE BORING’S life after Superman, The Golden Age of Comic Fandom Panel, FCA section with GEORGE TUSKA, C.C. BECK, MARC SWAYZE, BILL MORRISON, & more! ROMITA and GIORDANO covers!

Who Created the Silver Age Flash? (with KANIGHER, INFANTINO, KUBERT, and SCHWARTZ), DICK AYERS interview (with unseen art), JOHN BROOME remembered, never-seen Golden Age Flash pages, VIN SULLIVAN Magazine Enterprises interview, FCA, interview with FRED GUARDINEER, and MR. MONSTER on WAYNE BORING! INFANTINO and AYERS covers!

Focuses on TIMELY/MARVEL (interviews and features on SYD SHORES, MICKEY SPILLANE, and VINCE FAGO), and MAGAZINE ENTERPRISES (including JOE CERTA, JOHN BELFI, FRANK BOLLE, BOB POWELL, and FRED MEAGHER), MR. MONSTER on JERRY SIEGEL, DON and MAGGIE THOMPSON interview, FCA with SWAYZE, BECK, and DON NEWTON!

DC and QUALITY COMICS focus! Quality’s GILL FOX interview, never-seen ‘40s PAUL REINMAN Green Lantern story, ROY THOMAS talks to LEN WEIN and RICH BUCKLER about ALL-STAR SQUADRON, MR. MONSTER shows what made WALLY WOOD leave MAD, FCA section with BECK & SWAYZE, & ‘65 NEWSWEEK ARTICLE on comics! REINMAN and BILL WARD covers!

1974 panel with JOE SIMON, STAN LEE, FRANK ROBBINS, and ROY THOMAS, ROY and JOHN BUSCEMA on Avengers, 1964 STAN LEE interview, tributes to DON HECK, JOHNNY CRAIG, and GRAY MORROW, Timely alums DAVID GANTZ and DANIEL KEYES, and FCA with BECK, SWAYZE, and MIKE MANLEY! Covers by MURPHY ANDERSON and JOE SIMON!

(100-page magazine) $5.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #14

ALTER EGO #15

ALTER EGO #16

ALTER EGO #17

ALTER EGO #18

A look at the 1970s JSA revival with CONWAY, LEVITZ, ESTRADA, GIFFEN, MILGROM, and STATON, JERRY ORDWAY on All-Star Squadron, tributes to CRAIG CHASE and DAN DeCARLO, “lost” 1945 issue of All-Star, 1970 interview with LEE ELIAS, MR. MONSTER on GARDNER FOX, FCA with SWAYZE, BECK, & JAY DISBROW! MIKE NASSER & MICHAEL GILBERT covers!

JOHN BUSCEMA ISSUE! BUSCEMA interview (with UNSEEN ART), reminiscences by SAL BUSCEMA, STAN LEE, INFANTINO, KUBERT, ORDWAY, FLO STEINBERG, and HERB TRIMPE, ROY THOMAS on 35 years with BIG JOHN, FCA tribute to KURT SCHAFFENBERGER, plus C.C. BECK and MARC SWAYZE, and MR. MONSTER revisits WALLY WOOD! Two BUSCEMA covers!

MARVEL BULLPEN REUNION (BUSCEMA, COLAN, ROMITA, and SEVERIN), memories of the JOHN BUSCEMA SCHOOL, FCA with ALEX ROSS, C.C. BECK, and MARC SWAYZE, tribute to CHAD GROTHKOPF, MR. MONSTER on EC COMICS with art by KURTZMAN, DAVIS, and WOOD, and more! Covers by ALEX ROSS and MARIE SEVERIN & RAMONA FRADON!

Spotlighting LOU FINE (with an overview of his career, and interviews with family members), interview with MURPHY ANDERSON about Fine, ALEX TOTH on Fine, ARNOLD DRAKE interviewed about DEADMAN and DOOM PATROL, MR. MONSTER on the non-EC work of JACK DAVIS and GEORGE EVANS, FINE and LUIS DOMINGUEZ COVERS, FCA and more!

STAN GOLDBERG interview, secrets of ‘40s Timely, art by KIRBY, DITKO, ROMITA, BUSCEMA, MANEELY, EVERETT, BURGOS, and DeCARLO, spotlight on sci-fi fanzine XERO with the LUPOFFS, OTTO BINDER, DON THOMPSON, ROY THOMAS, BILL SCHELLY, and ROGER EBERT, FCA, and MR. MONSTER on WALLY WOOD ghosting Flash Gordon! KIRBY and SWAYZE covers!

(100-page magazine) $5.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

(108-page magazine) $5.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #19

ALTER EGO #20

ALTER EGO #21

ALTER EGO #22

ALTER EGO #23

Spotlight on DICK SPRANG (profile and interview) with unseen art, rare Batman art by BOB KANE, CHARLES PARIS, SHELLY MOLDOFF, MAX ALLAN COLLINS, JIM MOONEY, CARMINE INFANTINO, and ALEX TOTH, JERRY ROBINSON interviewed about Tomahawk and 1940s cover artist FRED RAY, FCA, and MR. MONSTER on WALLY WOOD’s Flash Gordon, Part 2!

Timely/Marvel art by SEKOWSKY, SHORES, EVERETT, and BURGOS, secrets behind THE INVADERS with ROY THOMAS, KIRBY, GIL KANE, & ROBBINS, BOB DESCHAMPS interviewed, 1965 NY Comics Con review, panel with FINGER, BINDER, FOX and WEISINGER, MR. MONSTER, FCA with SWAYZE, BECK, RABOY, SCHAFFENBERGER, and more! MILGROM and SCHELLY covers!

The IGER “SHOP” examined, with art by EISNER, FINE, ANDERSON, CRANDALL, BAKER, MESKIN, CARDY, EVANS, BOB KANE, and TUSKA, “SHEENA” section with art by DAVE STEVENS & FRANK BRUNNER, ROY THOMAS on JSA & All-Star Squadron, MR. MONSTER on GARDNER FOX, UNSEEN 1946 ALL-STAR ART, FCA, and more! DAVE STEVENS and IRWIN HASEN covers!

BILL EVERETT and JOE KUBERT interviewed by NEAL ADAMS and GIL KANE in 1970, Timely art by BURGOS, SHORES, NODELL, and SEKOWSKY, RUDY LAPICK, ROY THOMAS on Sub-Mariner, with art by EVERETT, COLAN, ANDRU, BUSCEMAs, SEVERINs, and more, FCA, MR. MONSTER on WALLY WOOD at EC, ALEX TOTH, and CAPT. MIDNIGHT! EVERETT & BECK covers!

Unseen art from TWO “LOST” 1940s H.G. PETER WONDER WOMAN STORIES (and analysis of “CHARLES MOULTON” scripts), BOB FUJITANI and JOHN ROSENBERGER, VICTOR GORELICK discusses Archie and The Mighty Crusaders, with art by MORROW, BUCKLER, and REINMAN, FCA, and MR. MONSTER on WALLY WOOD! H.G. PETER and BOB FUJITANI covers!

(108-page magazine) $5.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #24

ALTER EGO #25

ALTER EGO #26

ALTER EGO #27

ALTER EGO #28

X-MEN interviews with STAN LEE, DAVE COCKRUM, CHRIS CLAREMONT, ARNOLD DRAKE, JIM SHOOTER, ROY THOMAS, and LEN WEIN, MORT MESKIN profiled by his sons and ALEX TOTH, rare art by JERRY ROBINSON, FCA with BECK, SWAYZE, and WILLIAM WOOLFOLK, MR. MONSTER, and BILL SCHELLY on Comics Fandom! MESKIN and COCKRUM covers!

JACK COLE remembered by ALEX TOTH, interview with brother DICK COLE and his PLAYBOY colleagues, CHRIS CLAREMONT on the X-Men (with more never-seen art by DAVE COCKRUM), ROY THOMAS on AllStar Squadron #1 and its ‘40s roots (with art by ORDWAY, BUCKLER, MESKIN and MOLDOFF), FCA, MR. MONSTER, and more! Covers by TOTH and SCHELLY!

JOE SINNOTT interview, IRWIN DONENFELD interview by EVANIER & SCHWARTZ, art by SHUSTER, INFANTINO, ANDERSON, and SWAN, MARK WAID analyzes the first Kryptonite story, JERRY SIEGEL and HARRY DONENFELD, JERRY IGER Shop update, ALEX TOTH, MR. MONSTER, and FCA with SWAYZE, BECK, and KEN BALD! Covers by SINNOTT and WAYNE BORING!

VIN SULLIVAN interview about the early DC days with art by SHUSTER, MOLDOFF, FLESSEL, GUARDINEER, and BURNLEY, MR. MONSTER’s “Lost” KIRBY HULK covers, 1948 NEW YORK COMIC CON with STAN LEE, SIMON & KIRBY, JULIUS SCHWARTZ, HARVEY KURTZMAN, and ROY THOMAS, ALEX TOTH, FCA, and more! Covers by JACK BURNLEY and JACK KIRBY!

Spotlight on JOE MANEELY, with a career overview, remembrance by his daughter and tons of art, Timely/Atlas/Marvel art by ROMITA, EVERETT, SEVERIN, SHORES, KIRBY, and DITKO, STAN LEE on Maneely, LEE AMES interview, FCA with SWAYZE, ISIS, and STEVE SKEATES, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY, and more! Covers by JOE MANEELY and DON NEWTON!

(108-page magazine) $5.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #29

ALTER EGO #30

ALTER EGO #31

ALTER EGO #32

ALTER EGO #33

FRANK BRUNNER interview, BILL EVERETT’S Venus examined by TRINA ROBBINS, Classics Illustrated “What ifs”, LEE/KIRBY/DITKO Marvel prototypes, JOE MANEELY’s monsters, BILL FRACCIO interview, ALEX TOTH, MR. MONSTER, JOHN BENSON on EC, The Heap by ERNIE SCHROEDER, and FCA! Covers by FRANK BRUNNER and PETE VON SHOLLY!

ALEX ROSS on his love for the JLA, BLACKHAWK/JLA artist DICK DILLIN, the super-heroes of 1940s-1980s France (with art by STEVE RUDE, STEVE BISSETTE, LADRÖNN, and NEAL ADAMS), KIM AAMODT & WALTER GEIER on writing for SIMON & KIRBY, ALEX TOTH, MR. MONSTER, and FCA! Covers by ALEX ROSS and STEVE RUDE!

DICK AYERS on his 1950s and ‘60s work (with tons of Marvel Bullpen art), HARLAN ELLISON’s Marvel Age work examined (with art by BUCKLER, SAL BUSCEMA, and TRIMPE), STAN LEE’S Marvel Prototypes (with art by KIRBY and DITKO), Christmas cards from comics greats, MR. MONSTER, & FCA with SWAYZE and SCHAFFENBERGER! Covers by DICK AYERS and FRED RAY!

Timely artists ALLEN BELLMAN and SAM BURLOCKOFF interviewed, MART NODELL on his Timely years, rare art by BURGOS, EVERETT, and SHORES, MIKE GOLD on the Silver Age (with art by SIMON & KIRBY, SWAN, INFANTINO, KANE, and more), FCA, ALEX TOTH, BILL SCHELLY on comics fandom, and more! Covers by DICK GIORDANO and GIL KANE!

Symposium on MIKE SEKOWSKY by MARK EVANIER, SCOTT SHAW!, et al., with art by ANDERSON, INFANTINO, and others, PAT (MRS. MIKE) SEKOWSKY and inker VALERIE BARCLAY interviewed, FCA, 1950s Captain Marvel parody by ANDRU and ESPOSITO, ALEX TOTH, BILL SCHELLY, MR. MONSTER, and more! Covers by FRENZ/SINNOTT and FRENZ/BUSCEMA!

(108-page magazine) $5.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

(108-page magazine) SOLD OUT (Digital Edition) $2.95

(108-page magazine) $5.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #34

ALTER EGO #35

ALTER EGO #36

ALTER EGO #37

ALTER EGO #38

Quality Comics interviews with ALEX KOTZKY, AL GRENET, CHUCK CUIDERA, & DICK ARNOLD (son of BUSY ARNOLD), art by COLE, EISNER, FINE, WARD, DILLIN, and KANE, MICHELLE NOLAN on Blackhawk’s jump to DC, FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT on HARVEY KURTZMAN, & ALEX TOTH on REED CRANDALL! Covers by REED CRANDALL & CHARLES NICHOLAS!

Covers by JOHN ROMITA and AL JAFFEE! LEE, ROMITA, AYERS, HEATH, & THOMAS on the 1953-55 Timely super-hero revival, with rare art by ROMITA, AYERS, BURGOS, HEATH, EVERETT, LAWRENCE, & POWELL, AL JAFFEE on the 1940s Timely Bullpen (and MAD), FCA, ALEX TOTH on comic art, MR. MONSTER on unpublished 1950s covers, and more!

JOE SIMON on SIMON & KIRBY, CARL BURGOS, and LLOYD JACQUET, JOHN BELL on World War II Canadian heroes, MICHAEL T. GILBERT on Canadian origins of MR. MONSTER, tributes to BOB DESCHAMPS, DON LAWRENCE, & GEORGE WOODBRIDGE, FCA, ALEX TOTH, and ELMER WEXLER interview! Covers by SIMON and GILBERT & RONN SUTTON!

WILL MURRAY on the 1940 Superman “KMetal” story & PHILIP WYLIE’s GLADIATOR (with art by SHUSTER, SWAN, ADAMS, and BORING), FCA with BECK, SWAYZE, and DON NEWTON, SY BARRY interview, art by TOTH, MESKIN, INFANTINO, and ANDERSON, and MICHAEL T. GILBERT interviews AL FELDSTEIN on EC and RAY BRADBURY! Covers by C.C. BECK and WAYNE BORING!

JULIE SCHWARTZ TRIBUTE with HARLAN ELLISON, INFANTINO, ANDERSON, TOTH, KUBERT, GIELLA, GIORDANO, CARDY, LEVITZ, STAN LEE, WOLFMAN, EVANIER, & ROY THOMAS, never-seen interviews with Julie, FCA with BECK, SCHAFFENBERGER, NEWTON, COCKRUM, OKSNER, FRADON, SWAYZE, and JACKSON BOSTWICK! Covers by INFANTINO and IRWIN HASEN!

(108-page magazine) $5.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #39

ALTER EGO #40

ALTER EGO #41

ALTER EGO #42

ALTER EGO #43

Full-issue spotlight on JERRY ROBINSON, with an interview on being BOB KANE’s Batman “ghost”, creating the JOKER and ROBIN, working on VIGILANTE, GREEN HORNET, and ATOMAN, plus never-seen art by Jerry, MESKIN, ROUSSOS, RAY, KIRBY, SPRANG, DITKO, and PARIS! Plus FCA, MR. MONSTER on AL FELDSTEIN Part 2, and more! Two JERRY ROBINSON covers!

RUSS HEATH and GIL KANE interviews (with tons of unseen art), the JULIE SCHWARTZ Memorial Service with ELLISON, MOORE, GAIMAN, HASEN, O’NEIL, and LEVITZ, art by INFANTINO, ANDERSON, TOTH, NOVICK, DILLIN, SEKOWSKY, KUBERT, GIELLA, ARAGONÉS, FCA, MR. MONSTER and AL FELDSTEIN Part 3, and more! Covers by GIL KANE & RUSS HEATH!

Halloween issue! BERNIE WRIGHTSON on his 1970s FRANKENSTEIN, DICK BRIEFER’S monster, the campy 1960s Frankie, art by KALUTA, BAILY, MANEELY, PLOOG, KUBERT, BRUNNER, BORING, OKSNER, TUSKA, CRANDALL, and SUTTON, FCA #100, EMILIO SQUEGLIO interview, ALEX TOTH, MICHAEL T. GILBERT, and more! Covers by WRIGHTSON & MARC SWAYZE!

A celebration of DON HECK, WERNER ROTH, and PAUL REINMAN, rare art by KIRBY, DITKO, and AYERS, Hillman and Ziff-Davis remembered by Heap artist ERNIE SCHROEDER, HERB ROGOFF, and WALTER LITTMAN, FCA with MARC SWAYZE, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY, and ALEX TOTH! Covers by FASTNER & LARSON and ERNIE SCHROEDER!

Yuletide art by WOOD, SINNOTT, CARDY, BRUNNER, TOTH, NODELL, and others, interviews with Golden Age artists TOM GILL (Lone Ranger) and MORRIS WEISS, exploring 1960s Mexican comics, FCA with MARC SWAYZE and C.C. BECK, MR. MONSTER, ALEX TOTH, BILL SCHELLY on comics fandom, and more! Flip covers by GEORGE TUSKA and DAVE STEVENS!

(108-page magazine) $5.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #44

ALTER EGO #45

ALTER EGO #46

ALTER EGO #47

ALTER EGO #48

JSA/All-Star Squadron/Infinity Inc. special! Interviews with KUBERT, HASEN, ANDERSON, ORDWAY, BUCKLER, THOMAS, 1940s Atom writer ARTHUR ADLER, art by TOTH, SEKOWSKY, HASEN, MACHLAN, OKSNER, and INFANTINO, FCA, and MR. MONSTER’S “I Like Ike!” cartoons by BOB KANE, INFANTINO, OKSNER, and BIRO! Wraparound ORDWAY cover!

Interviews with Sandman artist CREIG FLESSEL and ‘40s creator BERT CHRISTMAN, MICHAEL CHABON on researching his Pulitzer-winning novel Kavalier & Clay, art by EISNER, KANE, KIRBY, and AYERS, FCA with MARC SWAYZE and C.C. BECK, OTTO BINDER’s “lost” Jon Jarl story, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY on comics fandom, and ALEX TOTH! CREIG FLESSEL cover!

The VERY BEST of the 1960s-70s ALTER EGO! 1969 BILL EVERETT interview, art by BURGOS, GUSTAVSON, SIMON & KIRBY, and others, 1960s gems by DITKO, E. NELSON BRIDWELL, JERRY BAILS, and ROY THOMAS, LOU GLANZMAN interview, tributes to IRV NOVICK and CHRIS REEVE, MR. MONSTER, FCA, TOTH, and more! Cover by EVERETT and MARIE SEVERIN!

Spotlights MATT BAKER, Golden Age cheesecake artist of PHANTOM LADY! Career overview, interviews with BAKER’s half-brother and nephew, art from AL FELDSTEIN, VINCE COLLETTA, ARTHUR PEDDY, JACK KAMEN and others, FCA, BILL SCHELLY talks to comic-book-seller (and fan) BUD PLANT, MR. MONSTER on missing AL WILLIAMSON art, and ALEX TOTH!

WILL EISNER discusses Eisner & Iger’s Shop and BUSY ARNOLD’s ‘40s Quality Comics, art by FINE, CRANDALL, COLE, POWELL, and CARDY, EISNER tributes by STAN LEE, GENE COLAN, & others, interviews with ‘40s Quality artist VERN HENKEL and CHUCK MAZOUJIAN, FCA, MR. MONSTER on EISNER’s Wonder Man, ALEX TOTH, and more with BUD PLANT! EISNER cover!

(100-page magazine) SOLD OUT (Digital Edition) $2.95

(100-page magazine) $5.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #49

ALTER EGO #50

ALTER EGO #51

ALTER EGO #52

ALTER EGO #53

Spotlights CARL BURGOS! Interview with daughter SUE BURGOS, art by BURGOS, BILL EVERETT, MIKE SEKOWSKY, ED ASCHE, and DICK AYERS, unused 1941 Timely cover layouts, the 1957 Atlas Implosion examined, MANNY STALLMAN, FCA, MR. MONSTER and more! New cover by MARK SPARACIO, from an unused 1941 layout by CARL BURGOS!

ROY THOMAS covers his 40-YEAR career in comics (AVENGERS, X-MEN, CONAN, ALL-STAR SQUADRON, INFINITY INC.), with ADAMS, BUSCEMA, COLAN, DITKO, GIL KANE, KIRBY, STAN LEE, ORDWAY, PÉREZ, ROMITA, and many others! Also FCA, & MR. MONSTER on ROY’s letters to GARDNER FOX! Flip-covers by BUSCEMA/ KIRBY/ALCALA and JERRY ORDWAY!

Golden Age Batman artist/BOB KANE ghost LEW SAYRE SCHWARTZ interviewed, Batman art by JERRY ROBINSON, DICK SPRANG, SHELDON MOLDOFF, WIN MORTIMER, JIM MOONEY, and others, the Golden and Silver Ages of AUSTRALIAN SUPER-HEROES, Mad artist DAVE BERG interviewed, FCA, MR. MONSTER on WILL EISNER, BILL SCHELLY, and more!

JOE GIELLA on the Silver Age at DC, the Golden Age at Marvel, and JULIE SCHWARTZ, with rare art by INFANTINO, GIL KANE, SEKOWSKY, SWAN, DILLIN, MOLDOFF, GIACOIA, SCHAFFENBERGER, and others, JAY SCOTT PIKE on STAN LEE and CHARLES BIRO, MARTIN THALL interview, ALEX TOTH, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY, and more! GIELLA cover!

GIORDANO and THOMAS on STOKER’S DRACULA, never-seen DICK BRIEFER Frankenstein strip, MIKE ESPOSITO on his work with ROSS ANDRU, art by COLAN, WRIGHTSON, MIGNOLA, BRUNNER, BISSETTE, KALUTA, HEATH, MANEELY, EVERETT, DITKO, FCA with MARC SWAYZE, BILL SCHELLY, ALEX TOTH, and MR. MONSTER! Cover by GIORDANO!

(100-page magazine) $5.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

(100-page magazine) $6.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #54

ALTER EGO #55

ALTER EGO #56

ALTER EGO #57

ALTER EGO #58

MIKE ESPOSITO on DC and Marvel, ROBERT KANIGHER on the creation of Metal Men and Sgt. Rock (with comments by JOE KUBERT and BOB HANEY), art by ANDRU, INFANTINO, KIRBY, SEVERIN, WINDSOR-SMITH, ROMITA, BUSCEMA, TRIMPE, GIL KANE, and others, plus FCA, ALEX TOTH, BILL SCHELLY, MR. MONSTER, and more! ESPOSITO cover!

JACK and OTTO BINDER, KEN BALD, VIC DOWD, and BOB BOYAJIAN interviewed, FCA with SWAYZE and EMILIO SQUEGLIO, rare art by BECK, WARD, & SCHAFFENBERGER, Christmas Cards from CRANDALL, SINNOTT, HEATH, MOONEY, and CARDY, 1943 Pin-Up Calendar (with ‘40s movie stars as superheroines), ALEX TOTH, more! ALEX ROSS and ALEX WRIGHT covers!

Interviews with Superman creators SIEGEL & SHUSTER, Golden/Silver Age DC production guru JACK ADLER interviewed, NEAL ADAMS and radio/TV iconoclast (and comics fan) HOWARD STERN on Adler and his amazing career, art by CURT SWAN, WAYNE BORING, and AL PLASTINO, plus FCA, MR. MONSTER, ALEX TOTH, and more! NEAL ADAMS cover!

Issue-by-issue index of Timely/Atlas superhero stories by MICHELLE NOLAN, art by SIMON & KIRBY, EVERETT, BURGOS, ROMITA, AYERS, HEATH, SEKOWSKY, SHORES, SCHOMBURG, MANEELY, and SEVERIN, GENE COLAN and ALLEN BELLMAN on 1940s Timely super-heroes, FCA, MR. MONSTER, and BILL SCHELLY! Cover by JACK KIRBY and PETE VON SHOLLY!

GERRY CONWAY and ROY THOMAS on their ‘80s screenplay for “The X-Men Movie That Never Was!”with art by COCKRUM, ADAMS, BUSCEMA, BYRNE, GIL KANE, KIRBY, HECK, and LIEBER, Atlas artist VIC CARRABOTTA interview, ALLEN BELLMAN on 1940s Timely bullpen, FCA, 1966 panel on 1950s EC Comics, and MR. MONSTER! MARK SPARACIO/GIL KANE cover!

(100-page magazine) $6.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #59

ALTER EGO #60

ALTER EGO #61

ALTER EGO #62

ALTER EGO #63

Special issue on Batman and Superman in the Golden and Silver Ages, featuring a new ARTHUR SUYDAM interview, NEAL ADAMS on DC in the 1960s-1970s, SHELLY MOLDOFF, AL PLASTINO, Golden Age artist FRAN (Doll Man) MATERA interviewed, SIEGEL & SHUSTER, RUSS MANNING, FCA, MR. MONSTER, SUYDAM cover, and more!

Celebrates 50 years since SHOWCASE #4! FLASH interviews with SCHWARTZ, KANIGHER, INFANTINO, KUBERT, and BROOME, Golden Age artist TONY DiPRETA, 1966 panel with NORDLING, BINDER, and LARRY IVIE, FCA, MR. MONSTER, never-before-published color Flash cover by CARMINE INFANTINO, and more!

History of the AMERICAN COMICS GROUP (1946 to 1967)—including its roots in the Golden Age SANGOR ART SHOP and STANDARD/NEDOR comics! Art by MESKIN, ROBINSON, WILLIAMSON, FRAZETTA, SCHAFFENBERGER, & BUSCEMA, ACG writer/editor RICHARD HUGHES, plus AL HARTLEY interviewed, FCA, MR. MONSTER, and more! GIORDANO cover!

HAPPY HAUNTED HALLOWEEN ISSUE, featuring: MIKE PLOOG and RUDY PALAIS on their horror-comics work! AL WILLIAMSON on his work for the American Comics Group—plus more on ACG horror comics! Rare DICK BRIEFER Frankenstein strips! Plus FCA, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY on the 1966 KalerCon, a new PLOOG cover—and more!

Tribute to ALEX TOTH! Never-before-seen interview with tons of TOTH art, including sketches he sent to friends! Articles about Toth by TERRY AUSTIN, JIM AMASH, SY BARRY, JOE KUBERT, LOU SAYRE SCHWARTZ, IRWIN HASEN, JOHN WORKMAN, and others! Plus illustrated Christmas cards by comics pros, FCA, MR. MONSTER, and more!

(100-page magazine) $6.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #64

ALTER EGO #65

ALTER EGO #66

ALTER EGO #67

ALTER EGO #68

Fawcett Favorites! Issue-by-issue analysis of BINDER & BECK’s 1943-45 “The Monster Society of Evil!” serial, double-size FCA section with MARC SWAYZE, EMILIO SQUEGLIO, C.C. BECK, MAC RABOY, and others! Interview with MARTIN FILCHOCK, Golden Age artist for Centaur Comics! Plus MR. MONSTER, DON NEWTON cover, plus a FREE 1943 MARVEL CALENDAR!

NICK CARDY interviewed on his Golden & Silver Age work (with CARDY art), plus art by WILL EISNER, NEAL ADAMS, CARMINE INFANTINO, JIM APARO, RAMONA FRADON, CURT SWAN, MIKE SEKOWSKY, and others, tributes to ERNIE SCHROEDER and DAVE COCKRUM, FCA with MARC SWAYZE, MICHAEL T. GILBERT and MR. MONSTER, new CARDY COVER, and more!

Spotlight on BOB POWELL, the artist who drew Daredevil, Sub-Mariner, Sheena, The Avenger, The Hulk, Giant-Man, and others, plus art by WALLY WOOD, HOWARD NOSTRAND, DICK AYERS, SIMON & KIRBY, MARTIN GOODMAN’s Magazine Management, and others! FCA with MARC SWAYZE and C.C. BECK, MICHAEL T. GILBERT and MR. MONSTER, and more!

Interview with BOB OKSNER, artist of Supergirl, Jimmy Olsen, Lois Lane, Angel and the Ape, Leave It to Binky, Shazam!, and more, plus art and artifacts by SHELLY MAYER, IRWIN HASEN, LEE ELIAS, C.C. BECK, CARMINE INFANTINO, GIL KANE, JULIE SCHWARTZ, etc., FCA with MARC SWAYZE & C.C. BECK, MICHAEL T. GILBERT on BOB POWELL Part II, and more!

Tribute to JERRY BAILS—Father of Comics Fandom and founder of Alter Ego! Cover by GEORGE PÉREZ, plus art by JOE KUBERT, CARMINE INFANTINO, GIL KANE, DICK DILLIN, MIKE SEKOWSKY, JERRY ORDWAY, JOE STATON, JACK KIRBY, and others! Plus STEVE DITKO’s notes to STAN LEE for a 1965 Dr. Strange story! And ROY reveals secrets behind Marvel’s STAR WARS comic!

(100-page magazine) $6.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #69

ALTER EGO #70

ALTER EGO #71

ALTER EGO #72

ALTER EGO #73

PAUL NORRIS drew AQUAMAN first, in 1941—and RAMONA FRADON was the hero’s ultimate Golden Age artist. But both drew other things as well, and both are interviewed in this landmark issue—along with a pocket history of Aquaman! Plus FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT, and more! Cover painted by JOHN WATSON, from a breathtaking illo by RAMONA FRADON!

Spotlight on ROY THOMAS’ 1970s stint as Marvel’s editor-in-chief and major writer, plus art and reminiscences of GIL KANE, BOTH BUSCEMAS, ADAMS, ROMITA, CHAYKIN, BRUNNER, PLOOG, EVERETT, WRIGHTSON, PÉREZ, ROBBINS, BARRY SMITH, STAN LEE and others, FCA, MR. MONSTER, a new GENE COLAN cover, plus an homage to artist LILY RENÉE!

Represents THE GREAT CANADIAN COMIC BOOKS, the long out-of-print 1970s book by MICHAEL HIRSH and PATRICK LOUBERT, with rare art of such heroes as Mr. Monster, Nelvana, Thunderfist, and others, plus new INVADERS art by JOHN BYRNE, MIKE GRELL, RON LIM, and more, plus a new cover by GEORGE FREEMAN, from a layout by JACK KIRBY!

SCOTT SHAW! and ROY THOMAS on the creation of Captain Carrot, art & artifacts by RICK HOBERG, STAN GOLDBERG, MIKE SEKOWSKY, JOHN COSTANZA, E. NELSON BRIDWELL, CAROL LAY, and others, interview with DICK ROCKWELL, Golden Age artist and 36-year ghost artist on MILTON CANIFF’s Steve Canyon! Plus FCA, MR. MONSTER, and more!

FRANK BRUNNER on drawing Dr. Strange, interviews with CHARLES BIRO and his daughters, interview with publisher ROBERT GERSON about his 1970s horror comic Reality, art by BERNIE WRIGHTSON, GRAHAM INGELS, HOWARD CHAYKIN, MICHAEL W. KALUTA, JEFF JONES, and others FCA, MR. MONSTER, a FREE DRAW! #15! PREVIEW, and more!

(100-page magazine) $6.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #74

ALTER EGO #75

ALTER EGO #76

ALTER EGO #77

ALTER EGO #78

STAN LEE SPECIAL in honor of his 85th birthday, with a cover by JACK KIRBY, classic (and virtually unseen) interviews with Stan, tributes, and tons of rare and unseen art by KIRBY, ROMITA, the brothers BUSCEMA, DITKO, COLAN, HECK, AYERS, MANEELY, SHORES, EVERETT, BURGOS, KANE, the SEVERIN siblings—plus FCA, MR. MONSTER, and more!

FAWCETT FESTIVAL—with an ALEX ROSS cover! Double-size FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America) with P.C. HAMERLINCK on the many “Captains Marvel” over the years, unseen Shazam! proposal by ALEX ROSS, C.C. BECK on “The Death of a Legend!”, MARC SWAYZE, interview with Golden Age artist MARV LEVY, MR. MONSTER, and more!

JOE SIMON SPECIAL! In-depth SIMON interview by JIM AMASH, with neverbefore-revealed secrets behind the creation of Captain America, Fighting American, Stuntman, Adventures of The Fly, Sick magazine and more, art by JACK KIRBY, BOB POWELL, AL WILLIAMSON, JERRY GRANDENETTI, GEORGE TUSKA, and others, FCA, MR. MONSTER, and more!

ST. JOHN ISSUE! Golden Age Tor cover by JOE KUBERT, KEN QUATTRO relates the full legend of St. John Publishing, art by KUBERT, NORMAN MAURER, MATT BAKER, LILY RENEE, BOB LUBBERS, RUBEN MOREIRA, RALPH MAYO, AL FAGO, special reminiscences of ARNOLD DRAKE, Golden Age artist TOM SAWYER interviewed, and more!

DAVE COCKRUM TRIBUTE! Great rare XMen cover, Cockrum tributes from contemporaries and colleagues, and an interview with PATY COCKRUM on Dave’s life and legacy on The Legion of Super-Heroes, The X-Men, Star-Jammers, & more! Plus an interview with 1950s Timely/Marvel artist MARION SITTON on his own incredible career and his Golden Age contemporaries!

(100-page magazine) $6.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #79

ALTER EGO #80

ALTER EGO #81

ALTER EGO #82

ALTER EGO #83

SUPERMAN & HIS CREATORS! New cover by MICHAEL GOLDEN, exclusive and revealing interview with JOE SHUSTER’s sister, JEAN SHUSTER PEAVEY—LOU CAMERON interview—STEVE GERBER tribute—DWIGHT DECKER on the Man of Steel & Hitler’s Third Reich—plus art by WAYNE BORING, CURT SWAN, NEAL ADAMS, GIL KANE, and others!

SWORD-AND-SORCERY COMICS! Learn about Crom the Barbarian, Viking Prince, Nightmaster, Kull, Red Sonja, Solomon Kane, Bran Mak Morn, Fafhrd and Gray Mouser, Beowulf, Warlord, Dagar the Invincible, and more, with art by FRAZETTA, SMITH, BUSCEMA, KANE, WRIGHTSON, PLOOG, THORNE, BRUNNER, LOU CAMERON Part II, and more! Cover by RAFAEL KAYANAN!

New FRANK BRUNNER Man-Thing cover, a look at the late-’60s horror comic WEB OF HORROR with early work by BRUNNER, WRIGHTSON, WINDSOR-SMITH, SIMONSON, & CHAYKIN, interview with comics & fine artist EVERETT RAYMOND KINTSLER, ROY THOMAS’ 1971 origin synopsis for the FIRST MAN-THING STORY, plus FCA, MR. MONSTER, and more!

MLJ ISSUE! Golden Age MLJ index illustrated with vintage images of The Shield, Hangman, Mr. Justice, Black Hood, by IRV NOVICK, JACK COLE, CHARLES BIRO, MORT MESKIN, GIL KANE, & others—behind a marvelous MLJ-heroes cover by BOB McLEOD! Plus interviews with IRV NOVICK and JOE EDWARDS, FCA, MR. MONSTER, and more!

SWORD & SORCERY PART 2! Cover by ARTHUR SUYDAM, with a focus on Conan the Barbarian by ROY THOMAS and WILL MURRAY, a look at WALLY WOOD’s Marvel sword-&-sorcery work, the Black Knight examined, plus JOE EDWARDS interview Part 2, FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT and MR. MONSTER, and more!

(100-page magazine) $6.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #84

ALTER EGO #85

ALTER EGO #86

ALTER EGO #87

ALTER EGO #88

Unseen JIM APARO cover, STEVE SKEATES discusses his early comics work, art & artifacts by ADKINS, APARO, ARAGONÉS, BOYETTE, DITKO, GIORDANO, KANE, KELLER, MORISI, ORLANDO, SEKOWSKY, STONE, THOMAS, WOOD, and the great WARREN SAVIN! Plus writer CHARLES SINCLAIR on his partnership with Batman co-creator BILL FINGER, FCA, and more!

Captain Marvel and Superman’s battles explored (in cosmic space, candy stores, and in court), RICH BUCKLER on Captain Marvel, plus an in-depth interview with Golden Age great LILY RENÉE, overview of CENTAUR COMICS (home of BILL EVERETT’s Amazing-Man and others), FCA, MR. MONSTER, new RICH BUCKLER cover, and more!

Spotlighting the Frantic Four-Color MAD WANNABES of 1953-55 that copied HARVEY KURTZMAN’S EC smash (see Captain Marble, Mighty Moose, Drag-ula, Prince Scallion, and more) with art by SIMON & KIRBY, KUBERT & MAURER, ANDRU & ESPOSITO, EVERETT, COLAN, and many others, plus Part 1 of a talk with Golden/ Silver Age artist FRANK BOLLE, and more!

The sensational 1954-1963 saga of Great Britain’s MARVELMAN (decades before he metamorphosed into Miracleman), plus an interview with writer/artist/co-creator MICK ANGLO, and rare Marvelman/ Miracleman work by ALAN DAVIS, ALAN MOORE, a new RICK VEITCH cover, plus FRANK BOLLE, Part 2, FCA, MR. MONSTER, and more!

First-ever in-depth look at National/DC’s founder MAJOR MALCOLM WHEELERNICHOLSON, and pioneers WHITNEY ELLSWORTH and CREIG FLESSEL, with rare art and artifacts by SIEGEL & SHUSTER, BOB KANE, CURT SWAN, GARDNER FOX, SHELDON MOLDOFF, and others, focus on DC advisor DR. LAURETTA BENDER, FCA, MR. MONSTER, and more!

(100-page magazine) $6.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #89

ALTER EGO #90

ALTER EGO #91

ALTER EGO #92

ALTER EGO #93

HARVEY COMICS’ PRE-CODE HORROR MAGS OF THE 1950s! Interviews with SID JACOBSON, WARREN KREMER, and HOWARD NOSTRAND, plus Harvey artist KEN SELIG talks to JIM AMASH! MR. MONSTER presents the wit and wisdom (and worse) of DR. FREDRIC WERTHAM, plus FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America) with C.C. BECK & MARC SWAYZE, & more! SIMON & KIRBY and NOSTRAND cover!

BIG MARVEL ISSUE! Salutes to legends SINNOTT and AYERS—plus STAN LEE, TUSKA, EVERETT, MARTIN GOODMAN, and others! A look at the “Marvel SuperHeroes” TV animation of 1966! 1940s Timely writer and editor LEON LAZARUS interviewed by JIM AMASH! Plus FCA, MR. MONSTER, the 1960s fandom creations of STEVE GERBER, and more! JACK KIRBY holiday cover!

FAWCETT FESTIVAL! Big FCA section with Golden Age artists MARC SWAYZE & EMILIO SQUEGLIO! Plus JERRY ORDWAY on researching The Power of Shazam, Part II of “The MAD Four-Color Wannabes of the 1950s,” more on DR. LAURETTA BENDER and the teenage creations of STEVE GERBER, artist JACK KATZ spills Golden Age secrets to JIM AMASH, and more! New cover by ORDWAY and SQUEGLIO!

SWORD-AND-SORCERY, PART 3! DC’s Sword of Sorcery by O’NEIL, CHAYKIN, & SIMONSON and Claw by MICHELINIE & CHAN, Hercules by GLANZMAN, Dagar by GLUT & SANTOS, Marvel S&S art by BUSCEMA, CHAN, KAYANAN, WRIGHTSON, et al., and JACK KATZ on his classic First Kingdom! Plus FCA, MR. MONSTER, STEVE GERBER’s fan-creations (part 3), and more! Cover by RAFAEL KAYANAN!

(NOW WITH 16 COLOR PAGES!) “EarthTwo—1961 to 1985!” with rare art by INFANTINO, GIL KANE, ANDERSON, DELBO, ANDRU, BUCKLER, APARO, GRANDENETTI, and DILLIN, interview with Golden/Silver Age DC editor GEORGE KASHDAN, plus MICHAEL T. GILBERT and MR. MONSTER, STEVE GERBER, FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America), and a new cover by INFANTINO and AMASH!

(100-page magazine) $6.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #94

ALTER EGO #95

ALTER EGO #96

ALTER EGO #97

ALTER EGO #98

“Earth-Two Companion, Part II!” More on the 1963-1985 series that changed comics forever! The Huntress, Power Girl, Dr. Fate, Freedom Fighters, and more, with art by ADAMS, APARO, AYERS, BUCKLER, GIFFEN, INFANTINO, KANE, NOVICK, SCHAFFENBERGER, SIMONSON, STATON, SWAN, TUSKA, our GEORGE KASHDAN interview Part 2, FCA, and more! STATON & GIORDANO cover!

Marvel’s NOT BRAND ECHH madcap parody mag from 1967-69, examined with rare art & artifacts by ANDRU, COLAN, BUSCEMA, DRAKE, EVERETT, FRIEDRICH, KIRBY, LEE, the SEVERIN siblings, SPRINGER, SUTTON, THOMAS, TRIMPE, and more, GEORGE KASHDAN interview conclusion, FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT and MR. MONSTER, and more! Cover by MARIE SEVERIN!

Focus on Archie’s 1960s MIGHTY CRUSADERS, with vintage art and artifacts by JERRY SIEGEL, PAUL REINMAN, SIMON & KIRBY, JOHN ROSENBERGER, tributes to the Mighty Crusaders by BOB FUJITANE, GEORGE TUSKA, BOB LAYTON, and others! Interview with MELL LAZARUS, FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT and Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, and more! Cover by MIKE MACHLAN!

The NON-EC HORROR COMICS OF THE 1950s! From Menace and House of Mystery to The Thing!, we present vintage art and artifacts by EVERETT, BRIEFER, DITKO, MANEELY, COLAN , MESKIN, MOLDOFF, HEATH, POWELL, COLE, SIMON & KIRBY, FUJITANI, and others, plus FCA , MR. MONSTER and more, behind a creepy, eerie cover by BILL EVERETT!

Spotlight on Superman’s first editor WHITNEY ELLSWORTH, longtime Kryptoeditor MORT WEISINGER remembered by his daughter, an interview with Superman writer ALVIN SCHWARTZ, tributes to FRANK FRAZETTA and AL WILLIAMSON, art by JOE SHUSTER, WAYNE BORING, CURT SWAN, and NEAL ADAMS, plus MR. MONSTER, FCA, and a new cover by JERRY ORDWAY!

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO: CENTENNIAL (AE #100)

ALTER EGO #99

GEORGE TUSKA showcase issue on his career at Lev Gleason, Marvel, and in comics strips through the early 1970s—CRIME DOES NOT PAY, BUCK ROGERS, IRON MAN, AVENGERS, HERO FOR HIRE, & more! Plus interviews with Golden Age artist BILL BOSSERT and fan-artist RUDY FRANKE, MR. MONSTER’S COMIC CRYPT, FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America), and more! (84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO: CENTENNIAL is a celebration of 100 issues, and 50 years, of ALTER EGO, Roy Thomas’ legendary super-hero fanzine. It’s a double-size triple-threat BOOK, with twice as many pages as the regular magazine, plus special features just for this anniversary edition! Behind a RICH BUCKLER/JERRY ORDWAY JSA cover, ALTER EGO celebrates its 100th issue and the 50th anniversary of A/E (Vol. 1) #1 in 1961—as ROY THOMAS is interviewed by JIM AMASH about the 1980s at DC! Learn secrets behind ALL-STAR SQUADRON—INFINITY, INC.—ARAK, SON OF THUNDER—CAPTAIN CARROT—JONNI THUNDER, a.k.a. THUNDERBOLT— YOUNG ALL-STARS—SHAZAM!—RING OF THE NIBELUNG—and more! With rare art and artifacts by GEORGE PÉREZ, TODD McFARLANE, RICH BUCKLER, JERRY ORDWAY, MIKE MACHLAN, GIL KANE, GENE COLAN, DICK GIORDANO, ALFREDO ALCALA, TONY DEZUNIGA, ERNIE COLÓN, STAN GOLDBERG, SCOTT SHAW!, ROSS ANDRU, and many more! Plus special anniversary editions of Alter Ego staples MR. MONSTER’S COMIC CRYPT, FAWCETT COLLECTORS OF AMERICA (FCA)—and ALEX WRIGHT’s amazing color collection of 1940s DC pinup babes! Edited by ROY THOMAS. (NOTE: This book takes the place of ALTER EGO #100, and counts as TWO issues toward your subscription.) (160-page trade paperback with COLOR) $19.95 (Digital Edition) $5.95 • ISBN: 9781605490311 Diamond Order Code: JAN111351

ALTER EGO #101

Fox Comics of the 1940s with art by FINE, BAKER, SIMON, KIRBY, TUSKA, FLETCHER HANKS, ALEX BLUM, and others! “Superman vs. Wonder Man” starring EISNER, IGER, SIEGEL, LIEBERSON, MAYER, DONENFELD, and VICTOR FOX! Plus, Part I of an interview with JACK MENDELSOHN, plus FCA, MR. MONSTER’S COMIC CRYPT, and new cover by Marvel artist DAVE WILLIAMS!

NEW!

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #102

ALTER EGO #103

ALTER EGO #104

ALTER EGO: THE CBA COLLECTION

Spotlight on Green Lantern creators MART NODELL and BILL FINGER in the 1940s, and JOHN BROOME, GIL KANE, and JULIUS SCHWARTZ in 1959! Rare GL artwork by INFANTINO, REINMAN, HASEN, NEAL ADAMS, and others! Plus JACK MENDELSOHN Part II, FCA, MR. MONSTER’S COMIC CRYPT, and new cover by GIL KANE & TERRY AUSTIN, and MART NODELL!

The early career of comics writer STEVE ENGLEHART: Defenders, Captain America, Master of Kung Fu, The Beast, Mantis, and more, with rare art and artifacts by SAL BUSCEMA, STARLIN, SUTTON, HECK, BROWN, and others. Plus, JIM AMASH interviews early artist GEORGE MANDEL (Captain Midnight, The Woman in Red, Blue Bolt, Black Marvel, etc.), FCA, MR. MONSTER’S COMIC CRYPT, and more!

Celebrates the 50th anniversary of FANTASTIC FOUR #1 and the birth of Marvel Comics! New, never-before-published STAN LEE interview, art and artifacts by KIRBY, DITKO, SINNOTT, AYERS, THOMAS, and secrets behind the Marvel Mythos! Also: JIM AMASH interviews 1940s Timely editor AL SULMAN, FCA, MR. MONSTER’S COMIC CRYPT, and a new cover by FRENZ and SINNOTT!

Compiles the ALTER EGO flip-sides from COMIC BOOK ARTIST #1-5, plus 30 NEW PAGES of features & art! All-new rare and previously-unpublished art by JACK KIRBY, GIL KANE, JOE KUBERT, WALLY WOOD, FRANK ROBBINS, NEAL ADAMS, & others, ROY THOMAS on X-MEN, AVENGERS/ KREE-SKRULL WAR, INVADERS, and more! Cover by JOE KUBERT!

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95

(160-page trade paperback) SOLD OUT (Digital Edition) $4.95

HUMOR MAGAZINES (BUNDLE ALL THREE FOR JUST $14.95)

ALTER EGO:

BEST OF THE LEGENDARY COMICS FANZINE

Collects the original 11 issues of JERRY BAILS and ROY THOMAS’ ALTER EGO fanzine (from 1961-78), with contributions from JACK KIRBY, STEVE DITKO, WALLY WOOD, JOHN BUSCEMA, MARIE SEVERIN, BILL EVERETT, RUSS MANNING, CURT SWAN, and others—and illustrated interviews with GIL KANE, BILL EVERETT, & JOE KUBERT! Plus major articles on the JUSTICE SOCIETY, the MARVEL FAMILY, the MLJ HEROES, and more! Edited by ROY THOMAS and BILL SCHELLY with an introduction by JULIE SCHWARTZ. (192-page trade paperback) $21.95 ISBN: 9781893905887 Diamond Order Code: DEC073946

COMIC BOOK NERD

PETE VON SHOLLY’s side-splitting parody of the fan press, including our own mags! Experience the magic(?) of such publications as WHIZZER, the COMICS URINAL, ULTRA EGO, COMICS BUYER’S GUISE, BAGGED ISSUE!, SCRAWL!, COMIC BOOK ARTISTE, and more, as we unabashedly poke fun at ourselves, our competitors, and you, our loyal readers! It’s a first issue, collector’s item, double-bag, slab-worthy, speculator’s special sure to rub even the thickest-skinned fanboy the wrong way! (64-page COLOR magazine) $8.95 • (Digital Edition) $2.95

CRAZY HIP GROOVY GO-GO WAY OUT MONSTERS #29 & #32

PETE VON SHOLLY’s spoofs of monster mags will have you laughing your pants off— right after you soil them from sheer terror! This RETRO MONSTER MOVIE MAGAZINE is a laugh riot lampoon of those GREAT (and absolutely abominable) mags of the 1950s and ‘60s, replete with fake letters-to-the-editor, phony ads for worthless, wacky stuff, stills from imaginary films as bad as any that were really made, interviews with their “creators,” and much more! Relive your misspent youth (and misspent allowance) as you dig the hilarious photos, ads, and articles skewering OUR FAVORITE THINGS of the past! Get our first issue (#29!), the sequel (#32!), or both!

DIEDGITIIOTANSL E

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(48-page magazines) $5.95 EACH • (Digital Editions) $1.95 EACH

These sold-out books are now available again in DIGITAL EDITIONS:

NEW!

MR. MONSTER, VOL. 0

TRUE BRIT

DICK GIORDANO: CHANGING COMICS, ONE DAY AT A TIME

Collects hard-to-find Mr. Monster stories from A-1, CRACK-A-BOOM! and DARK HORSE PRESENTS (many in COLOR for the first time) plus over 30 pages of ALLNEW MR. MONSTER art and stories! Can your sanity survive our Lee/Kirby monster spoof by MICHAEL T. GILBERT and MARK MARTIN, or the long-lost 1933 Mr. Monster newspaper strip? Or the terrifying TRENCHER/MR. MONSTER slug-fest, drawn by KEITH GIFFEN and MICHAEL T. GILBERT?! Read at your own risk!

GEORGE KHOURY’s definitive book on the rich history of British Comics Artists, their influence on the US, and how they have revolutionized the way comics are seen and perceived! It features breathtaking art, intimate photographs, and in-depth interviews with BRIAN BOLLAND, ALAN DAVIS, DAVE GIBBONS, KEVIN O’NEILL, DAVID LLOYD, DAVE McKEAN, BRYAN HITCH, BARRY WINDSOR-SMITH and other fine gents! Sporting a new JUDGE DREDD cover by BRIAN BOLLAND!

MICHAEL EURY’s biography of comics’ most prominent and affable personality! It covers his career as illustrator, inker, and editor—peppered with DICK’S PERSONAL REFLECTIONS—and is illustrated with RARE AND UNSEEN comics, merchandising, and advertising art! Plus: an extensive index of his published work, comments and tributes by NEAL ADAMS, DENNIS O’NEIL, TERRY AUSTIN, PAUL LEVITZ, MARV WOLFMAN, JULIUS SCHWARTZ, JIM APARO and others, a Foreword by NEAL ADAMS, and an Afterword by PAUL LEVITZ!

(136-page Digital Edition with COLOR) $4.95

(204-page Digital Edition with COLOR) $6.95

(176-page Digital Edition with COLOR) $5.95

SECRETS IN THE SHADOWS: GENE COLAN

TOM FIELD’s amazing COLAN retrospective, with rare drawings, photos, and art from his 60-year career, and a comprehensive overview of Gene’s glory days at Marvel Comics! MARV WOLFMAN, DON McGREGOR and other writers share script samples and anecdotes of their Colan collaborations, while TOM PALMER, STEVE LEIALOHA and others show how they approached inking Colan’s famously nuanced penciled pages! Plus: a NEW PORTFOLIO of never-seen collaborations between Gene and masters such as BYRNE, KALUTA and PÉREZ, and all-new artwork created just for this book! (192-page Digital Edition with COLOR) $6.95

ART OF GEORGE TUSKA

A comprehensive look at GEORGE TUSKA’S personal and professional life, including early work at the Eisner-Iger shop, producing controversial crime comics of the 1950s, and his tenure with Marvel and DC Comics, as well as independent publishers. Includes extensive coverage of his work on IRON MAN, X-MEN, HULK, JUSTICE LEAGUE, TEEN TITANS, BATMAN, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. AGENTS, and others, a gallery of commission art and a thorough index of his work, original art, photos, sketches, unpublished art, interviews and anecdotes from his peers and fans, plus the very personal and reflective words of George himself! Written by DEWEY CASSELL. (128-page Digital Edition) $4.95

OTHER BOOKS FROM TWOMORROWS PUBLISHING

PENCILER, PUBLISHER, PROVOCATEUR

COMICS’ FAST & FURIOUS ARTIST

THE ART OF GLAMOUR

MATT BAKER

EXTRAORDINARY WORKS OF ALAN MOORE

Shines a light on the life and career of the artistic and publishing visionary of DC Comics!

Explores the life and career of one of Marvel Comics’ most recognizable and dependable artists!

Biography of the talented master of 1940s “Good Girl” art, complete with color story reprints!

Definitive biography of the Watchmen writer, in a new, expanded edition!

(224-page trade paperback) $26.95

(176-page trade paperback with COLOR) $26.95

(192-page hardcover with COLOR) $39.95

(240-page trade paperback) $29.95

QUALITY COMPANION

BATCAVE COMPANION

ALL- STAR COMPANION

AGE OF TV HEROES

The first dedicated book about the Golden Age publisher that spawned the modern-day “Freedom Fighters”, Plastic Man, and the Blackhawks!

Unlocks the secrets of Batman’s Silver and Bronze Ages, following the Dark Knight’s progression from 1960s camp to 1970s creature of the night!

Roy Thomas has four volumes documenting the history of ALL-STAR COMICS, the JUSTICE SOCIETY, INFINITY, INC., and more!

(256-page trade paperback with COLOR) $31.95

(240-page trade paperback) $26.95

(224-page trade paperbacks) $24.95

Examining the history of the live-action television adventures of everyone’s favorite comic book heroes, featuring the in-depth stories of the shows’ actors and behind-the-scenes players!

CARMINE INFANTINO

SAL BUSCEMA

(192-page full-color hardcover) $39.95

MARVEL COMICS

An issue-by-issue field guide to the pop culture phenomenon of LEE, KIRBY, DITKO, and others, from the company’s fumbling beginnings to the full maturity of its wild, colorful, offbeat grandiosity!

IN THE 1960s

(224-page trade paperback) $27.95

MODERN MASTERS

HOW TO CREATE COMICS

Covers how Stan Lee went from writer to publisher, Jack Kirby left (and returned), Roy Thomas rose as editor, and a new wave of writers and artists came in!

20+ volumes with in-depth interviews, plus extensive galleries of rare and unseen art from the artist’s files!

(224-page trade paperback) $27.95

Shows step-by-step how to develop a new comic, from script and art, to printing and distribution!

(128-page trade paperbacks) $14.95 each

(108-page trade paperback) $15.95

IN THE 1970s

A BOOK SERIES DEVOTED TO THE BEST OF TODAY’S ARTISTS

FROM SCRIPT TO PRINT

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TwoMorrows—A New Day For Comics Fandom! TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA • 919-449-0344 • FAX: 919-449-0327 E-mail: twomorrow@aol.com • Visit us on the Web at www.twomorrows.com