Comic Book Creator #20 by TwoMorrows Publishing

™

$9.95

in the USA

A TwoMorrows Publication

No. 20, Summer 2019

THE “NOT YOUR AVERAGE JOES” ISH!

82658 00362

Joe Sinnott Joe Jusko Joe Field Joe Maneely plus Some Guy Named Yoe and Kristina Deak-Linsner!

Cover by Joseph Michael Linsner

S u m m e r 2 0 1 9 • F i v e J o e s a n d a Yo e I s s u e • N u m b e r 2 0

T THE DEVILISH SAINT WOODY CBC mascot by J.D. KING

Ye Ed’s Rant: Robert Crumb’s generosity of spirit and Ye Ed’s newest book................... 2 COMICS CHATTER

About Our Cover

Up Front: A Guy Named Yoe: Part one of a close look at Craig Yoe of Yoe Books........ 3

Art by JOSEPH MICHAEL LINSNER

The Great Sinnott: Bob Andelman shares his 2007 interview with the inker............... 18

Incoming: Chattering about the Wallace Wood and Steve Rude issues....................... 14 A Gathering of Weirdos: Kendall Whitehouse captures a historical conclave............ 24

Cry for Dawn TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner. Others TM & © the respective trademark owners.

Darrick Patrick’s 10 Questions for Stan Sakai: Q’s for Usagi Yojimbo’s creator .... 28 Joe Fields on the Idea That Saved Comics: The secret origin story of FCBD!......... 30 Hembeck’s Dateline: Our Man Fred on Steve Ditko’s “Just a Guy Named Joe”......... 36 Comics in the Library: Rich Arndt shares his second war comics installment............ 37 THE MAIN EVENTS Oh, Lucky Linsner!: CBC converses with Joseph Michael Linsner about three decades with Dawn and his amazing, “lucky” life as a comic book artist...... 38 Joseph Michael Linsner Timeline: A chronology of JML’s comics career................ 62 Above: The headliner of our “Not Your Average Joes” special ish, JOSEPH MICHAEL LINSNER shares this spectacular illustration, which features his signature character, Dawn, and masks of various other characters he’s worked on over the years, including his own creations, Sinful Suzi and Obsidian Stone, as well as Killraven, Harley Quinn, and Vampirella. Regarding the latter character, Joe and his wife, Kristina Deak-Linsner, teamed to produce the 2018 mini-series, Vampirella: Roses for the Dead, written by Kristina.

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Kristina Deak-Linsner, Joe’s Better Half: A chat with the writer/artist about her collaborations with husband Joe Linsner and the joy of working on Vampirella .... 64 Joe Jusko’s Pop Art Productions: The great comics painter talks about his wonderful “Corner Box” creations featuring Marvel’s fabled heroes....................... 68 What If… Joe Maneely Had Lived?: Atlas Comics expert Michael J. Vassallo speculates on what could have been at the dawn of the Marvel Age of Comics.... 74 Buckler Bounces Back: The final portion of Michael Aushenker’s interview with the late artist on working for corporations and reinvention as surrealist painter.... 82 BACK MATTER Creators at the Con: Kendall Whitehouse captures the Monster Makers among us!.... 94 Coming Attractions: Eric Powell celebrates 20 years of The Goon................................ 95 A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words: Tom Ziuko shares another treasure............. 96 Right: At right is a detail of Joseph Michael Linsner’s signature character, Dawn, from the cover of Dawn/ Vampirella #1 [Sept. 2014].

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COMIC BOOK CREATOR is a proud joint production of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows

Comic Book Creator ™ is published quarterly by TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Dr., Raleigh, NC 27614 USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Jon B. Cooke, editor. John Morrow, publisher. Comic Book Creator editorial offices: P.O. Box 204, West Kingston, RI 02892 USA. E-mail: jonbcooke@aol.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Four-issue subscriptions: $45 US, $67 International, $20 Digital. All characters are © their respective copyright owners. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter ©2019 Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. Comic Book Creator is a TM of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. ISSN 2330-2437. Printed in China. FIRST PRINTING.

This issue is dedicated to the memories of JACK TREMBLEY, STEPHEN HILLENBURG, TED STEARN, KEN BALD, EVERETT RAYMOND KINSTLER, and BATTON LASH ™

JON B. COOKE Editor & Designer

JOHN MORROW Publisher & Consulting Editor

MICHAEL AUSHENKER Associate Editor

JOSEPH MICHAEL LINSNER Cover Artist

GEORGE KHOURY RICHARD J. ARNDT TOM ZIUKO Contributing Editors

STEVEN THOMPSON STEVEN TICE ROSE RUMMEL-EURY Transcribers

J.D. KING CBC Cartoonist

TOM ZIUKO CBC Colorist Supreme

RONN SUTTON CBC Illustrator

ROB SMENTEK CBC Proofreader

GREG PRESTON CBC Contributing Photographer

MICHAEL AUSHENKER FRED HEMBECK GEORGE KHOURY TOM ZIUKO CBC Columnists To contact CBC, please email jonbcooke@aol.com or snail-mail Comic Book Creator a/o Jon B. Cooke P.O. Box 601 West Kingston, RI 02892 2

Life gets really, really busy with The Book of Weirdo to Crumb’s “generosity of spirit.” And Yep, this issue is egregiously I gotta say the “low-brow” painter late, but yours truly is trying his completely nails it with that phrase. best to juggle a whole bunch The world, of which most would have of different projects and recent encountered Crumb through the obligations that have come in titular documentary or his portrayal the wake of the publication of in American Splendor, mostly views my newest effort. Published by the cartoonist as a cranky, oversexed Last Gasp of San Francisco, The curmudgeon. But the reality is he’s Book of Weirdo is my 12-yearsa very nice, funny, playful man, and in-the-making history of Robert his philosophy to open the pages of Crumb’s humor comics anthology Weirdo to any outsider artist up to the of the 1980s, a magazine whose task (as opposed to the closed ZAP impact on alternative cartoonshop) is testament to its nurturing and ists and veteran underground supportive founder. comix artists far outweighed its (And Crumb, in supporting my popularity back in the day (as it efforts, kindly consented to an never had a run over 10,000 per interview that was to become the printing). Anyway, the events debut episode of my podcast series surrounding the book’s May exploring the history of underground release have me on the road for and alternative comix. Subterranean much of the spring and summer, Dispatch, of which I’ll be adding epand it looks like fall will be a very isodes as I find time during this busy busy Weirdo season, as well. season, can be found on iTunes.) One of those events this It’s also been fun to bring my lovespring was a personal highpoint: ly wife of 32 years into my convention spending time over lunch with antics, and Beth will be joining me the person I consider the greatnext in San Diego for Comic-Con Inest cartoonist of all, R. Crumb ternational. Stop by the TwoMorrows himself. The great caricaturist/ and the Last Gasp booths and say illustrator Drew Friedman and howdy to us, will ya? my oft-collaborative partner and But all these Weirdo-related brother, Andrew, joined us in a Joseph Michael Linsner by Ronn Sutton goings-on do not supplant my Manhattan restaurant, and the TwoMorrows projects, so I appreciate your patience mighty Crumb confirmed in person that he loves my while I manage all of these “problems of abundance!” book, and it is, as he told Denis Kitchen, my pal and Immediately after putting the finishing touches on publisher of the forthcoming Weirdo trading card set I this issue and sending it off to press, I’ll be designing produced, “The greatest tribute to me that’s ever been Roger Hill’s Mac Raboy: Master of the Comics book and done, ever could be done.” My head swelleth! completing the anniversary retrospective, The World It’s been positively joyful working on that history of TwoMorrows, which celebrates 25 years of John over a dozen years (not straight-through, mind you, and Pam’s wonderful publishing company. Much of the but sporadically, as those who are aware of my output intent behind my effort will be to send a Valentine to my know that lots of other work was accomplished since pal and publisher, hopefully conveying my gratitude and 2007). The best experience over those years was appreciation for John introducing me into this wonderto associate with the great cartoonist himself, who patiently answered my many, many questions, and was ful, wacky world of publications about comics. I’ll do my best to keep up a regular schedule, though genuinely engaged to help see the book to fruition. that’ll be tough. After The Book of Weirdo activities After the contributor copies were mailed, I heard tell that Robert Williams — who, along with Crumb, is a subside, I hope to make CBC a tad more frequent even fellow ZAP Comix collective member — had nice things as other book projects will arise. There’s nothing better to keep one’s feet firmly planted on the ground, than to say about the book. So, ever in search of a blurb, I having the obligation to (try and best) meet magazine rang up the renowned surrealist painter and, to quote deadlines. I can only say I’ll do my best. Deal? the man, he said The Book of Weirdo was a testament

cbc contributors

Bob Andelman Mark Arnold Rich Buckler Andrew D. Cooke Beth A. Cooke Kristina Deak-Linsner Joe Fields

Drew Friedman Cliff Galbraith Michael Gerber Dan Greenfield Clizia Gussoni Heritage Auctions Joe Jusko

—Y e Crusading Editor jonbcooke@aol.com

J.D. King David Scroggy Aaron Lange J.J. Sedelmaier Joseph Michael Linsner Cory Sedlmeier Marvel Comics Joe Sinnott Tom McWeeny Rob Smentek John Morrow Patrick Sun Stan Sakai Ronn Sutton

The Time Capsule Rick Trembles Jim Valentino Michael J. Vassallo Kendall Whitehouse Rob Yeremian Craig Yoe

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

KENDALL WHITEHOUSE CBC Convention Photographer

Generosity of Spirit

up front

A Guy Named Yoe Part one of a two-part interview with cartoonist/publisher/historian Craig Yoe

Craig Yoe portrait © Kendall Whitehouse. Books TM & © the respective copyright holders. Photo, Yoe Books logo © Craig Yoe.

Conducted by JON B. COOKE Comic Book Creator: Where are you from, Craig? Craig Yoe: I was born in the corn and raised with the pigs in Iowa. My family soon moved to the Rubber Capital of the World, Akron, Ohio — “Tire Town.” Breathing the rubber fumes from the factories as a tender child made me the person I am today! CBC: [Chuckles] What did your dad do? Craig: My dad, Duane Yoe, was an inventor and worked for various rubber companies in Tire Town. You know what they say, Jon: “You can’t reinvent the wheel.” But, my dad outlandishly went against all sense and convention, and spent years of his life and tons of Goodyear’s dollars in a crazy effort to do just that. He came up with the ludicrous idea of a triangular tire! I have a photo of me, right here on the wall above my drawing board, sitting on a tractor with the prototype triangular tire! The idea was to get more traction in muddy fields, but, of course, it didn’t work! They are right when they say you can’t reinvent the wheel, but I am immensely proud of my old man, who went against all logic and tried anyway! Dad’s brazen act inspires me to this day. In my lifetime, I sure have invented a lot of triangular tires! CBC: Was your dad an engineer? Craig: He was a chemical engineer, who dreamed up new ideas, chemical and otherwise. Dad was an independent thinker and independent soul. He always wanted to be his

own boss, get way from working for The Man, and he achieved that dream at times. Working for myself is in my DNA. Another one of Dad’s creations was also very influential to me. When I was into comics, he was collecting coins. He brainstormed, produced, and sold a wacky device to cut holes in plastic sheets to display collector’s prized coins. My dad called his tiny home-based company, Yoe and Son. Geez, I love him for that. I wasn’t even a teenager—this name for the company was so affirming! I’d help dad assemble, package, and mail his invention. This activity educated me in how businesses worked, how products were created, manufactured, advertised, the importance of customer relations, and so on. The knowledge was all revelatory and eventually very helpful to me. I try to follow my dad’s example and encourage my young kids by involving them in comics and our work. Griffin, age eight, and Grace, age six, are stupendous artists and writers. They made their own comic books and we had them printed up. They sold their comics alongside my books at a recent comic convention—to great success! Jim Steranko was there. He got copies of their comics and gave them some good advice: “Keep doing lots and lots of drawings. Don’t worry about what you draw, just fill stacks of paper, and have fun!” That was Steranko’s secret he shared with my kids! Griffin also chose the stories for the Ditko’s Monsters: Gorgo vs Konga comic book we just published. So Griffin

Top inset: Portrait of Craig Yoe by Kendall Whitehouse. Above: Various books produced by Craig’s imprint, Yoe Books. Left: Young Craig poses on one of his inventive dad’s notions. For farm tractors,“He came up with the ludicrous idea of a triangular tire!” Craig exclaimed. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

This page: Pop culture that made an impact on young Craig, including Annette Funicello, TV horror host Ghoulardi, Carl Barks’ Disney duck comics, Little Lulu comics by John Stanley, and the Batman TV show.

Next page: More influences: Roger Bollen’s Animal Crackers comic strip and Stan Lee & Steve Ditko’s Spider-Man.

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Mickey Mouse Club, Uncle Scrooge TM & © Disney Enterprises, Inc. Little Lulu TM & © Classic Media, LLC. Ghoulardi TM & © the respective copyright holder. Batman TM & © DC Comics.

Above: Rich Buckler’s first professional job was a fourpage historical adventure in the back of Flash Gordon #10 [Nov. 1967], starring the father of our country, George Washington. Inset right: The cover of that very same comic book, artist unknown. Below: Before becoming a full-time professional, Buckler was a prolific art contributor to comics fanzines in the 1960s, even publishing his own, Intrigue and Super-Hero. This is an ad for the former, replete with a self portrait.

got credit as the editor on the cover. His teacher and classmates were super-impressed when we showed this comic at “Show and Tell,” or, as I like to call it, “Yoe and Tell!” I’m sure these experiences will build Griffin and Grace’s confidence. CBC: Did your dad do art, too? Craig: Not like you and I think of as art. He did drawings for his inventions and architectural plans for apartment buildings he built when he got into that — another scheme to work for himself. So I got to see what it was like to put pencil to paper. When I became the senior designer for Marvin Glass and Associates, in Chicago, the world’s first and largest toy think-tank, my dad’s abilities inspired me to come up with creative ideas on the mechanical side. Marvin Glass designers invented toys and games like Lite-Brite, Mr. Machine, Simon, Rock ’Em Sock ’Em Robots, Operation, those plastic wind-up chattering teeth, and Mouse Trap. After I found a Rube Goldberg book in the company library, the Mouse Trap inventor confessed to me that the game was inspired by Goldberg’s wacky inventions. At Marvin Glass, I was inventing toys for Mattel, Hasbro, and many others of the 50-some toy companies of the time. I came up with all kinds of stuff… games, dolls, action figures… I have six toy patents in my name. Marvin Glass was a crazy place. Being there was like Tom Hanks in the movie Big, with all its drama, back-stabbing, comedy, and a little romance… I lived it! CBC: Where does the name “Yoe” come from? Craig: I’m not entirely sure, Jon. I was told that a “yeoman” was a member of the respected middle class in England. As such it refers to someone doing a good job, “a yeoman’s work.” Maybe I’m part of the British Invasion! At some point, the “man” was dropped and the letters switched around a bit to become “Yoe”! But I don’t really know much about my background, yo! CBC: Were you creative at a young age? Did you draw? Craig: I made some of my own toys, rubber-band guns, things like that. I loved to draw, like all kids. That’s before critical parents and teachers beat the creativity out the little snot-nosed ones so that they fall in line like good little soldiers. In kindergarten, I remember the teacher passing out coloring sheets of a ducky and going around to look at our drawings. Smiling she said to me, “Craig, that’s really good!” I was busting with pride! However, without missing a beat, she frowned, “But you colored outside the lines!” At that moment I knew two things: number one, I wanted to be an artist and, number two, I defiantly wanted to color outside the lines! “Hey, teach: f*ck you very much!” (I want to be somewhat respectful). [laughter]

In contrast, my fourth-grade teacher, Mrs. Leonard, showed us on the blackboard how to draw snowmen. She taped everybody’s finished creations on the wall. Being Yoe, my drawing was alphabetically last. She went down the line commenting each and every piece. Every kid’s drawings looked slavishly like her example — except mine. I don’t remember what I did. Maybe I put the little snowball on the bottom and the big one on top. Maybe I had a pickle for a nose rather than a carrot — I do like surrealism! All the kids were waiting in gleeful anticipation for her to blast me for my off-model snowman. But, instead she applauded my creativity and praised me for breaking the rules! That was another defining moment for me! The idiot teacher on one hand and the encouraging teacher on the other propelled me further into being an artist. By the way, Jon, dig this: Mrs. Leonard’s daughter, Polly Leonard, became a cartooning teacher — and herself a cartoonist! Last time I saw Polly, she was dancing with Charles Schulz at a National Cartoonist Society annual gathering! CBC: Hah! Were you watching TV as a kid? Craig: Sure, I was feverishly sucking on the glass teat! There was plenty of playing outside, but I’d run home from school to watch The Mickey Mouse Club and drool over Annette Funicello. Ms. Funicello started my life-long love for Italian women! I grew up watching cowboy shows, the shoot-’em-ups. Later, I saw the Batman TV show and, to this day, I think it’s the best screen version of super-heroes. I can’t think of any other I can even stomach except the Lego Batman movie—that was cool! Adam West and Julie Newmar, Batman and Catwoman, blew my little mind! And then there was the TV appearance of The Beatles. A couple days ago was the 50th anniversary of their debut on The Ed Sullivan Show. I watched it live on its original night! While I was listening to and eyeballing The Beatles, I was also looking at the reactions of my parents, sister, grandparents, aunts, and uncles. I was fascinated by how aghast they all were and that excited me. As much as I liked the music, I liked the rebellious side of John, Paul, George, and Ringo — they colored outside the damn lines! CBC: How old were you then? Craig: I was born in 1951, so I guess I was 13. At that time, the wild late-night TV horror movie host Ghoulardi hit the local airwaves. Ghoulardi was every bit as big as The Beatles for me and Northeast Ohio kids. Another iconoclast and an immeasurable influence in my life! I dedicated one of our horror comic Yoe Books collections to Ghoulardi. In his words, “Stay sick, knif!” CBC: Did you read comics? Was that a part of your culture as a kid? Craig: I blame my mom for all this comics stuff. When I was about seven, my mom, Betty Hamilton Yoe, got me a subscription to Walt Disney’s Comics and Stories. I loved running to the mailbox once a month and the thrill of immersing myself in the world of those amazing Carl Barks Donald Duck stories. If I was going to summer camp or we went on a long vacation road trip, Mom would also buy me a Little Lulu comic. John Stanley was my other comic book “god” besides Barks — not that I knew their names. I thought Walt Disney drew Donald Duck and Marge drew Little Lulu… it said so right on the covers!

Animal Crackers TM & © Tribune Media Services. Spider-Man TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

I spent a lot of time reading comics. I once was in therapy and the shrink asked, “What was your favorite memory from childhood?” My answer was, “Laying in my bed reading comic books.” [chuckles] I don’t know what he derived from that knowledge. I was going through hard times with some relationships, with some people. What I was strongly remembering was the pleasure of being alone with my favorite form of escapism, the four-color funnies! When I became a man, I put away childish things. When I say, “became a man,” I mean when I went to junior high school! You didn’t read comics then because you were supposed to be grown up and be cool. However, a couple of school friends like Dave Scroggy and Jon Hartz, later comic industry guys, secretly got hooked on Marvel comics. Chuck Case was the one who confided to me that he was reading Spider-Man. I didn’t know what the hell a Marvel comic book was, but it sounded intriguing. On Chuck’s recommendation, I covertly bought a Spidey comic at the drug store, after casing the joint and making sure there was no fellow classmate around. Back then, you didn’t dare let people let know you were reading comics — that would be social suicide! For this initial comic book purchase, I even concocted an alibi. If some girl from my class happened to walk in the store and see me at the embarrassing, immature-sounding “Hey!! Kids Comics” spinner rack, I planned on saying, “Oh, hi! I, a cool mature teenager like you, am going to be babysitting my nephew this weekend. So I am buying the cute little tyke a silly comic book to amuse him!” [Jon chuckles] You didn’t want anybody to find out you were reading comic books and thinking you were some kind of arrested-development drooling idiot! These secret comics collector friends were what are known now as “Marvel zombies.” They were only into the he Marvel Bullpen’s House of Ideas. Myself I thought, “Well, these Marvel comics are cool, but I bet all comics are cool!” So, I started haunting used bookstores and thrift stores. I was buying back issues of all kinds of comics, from all kinds of publishers, even back to Golden Age fare — all for half-price, five cents a pop! And at the stores, I bought hardback books like ones by cartoonist Milt Gross, collections of New Yorker cartoons, and books about the radical commie cartoonist Art Young and his ilk. I’d glom onto a book of comics by the brilliant early magazine cartoonist A.B. Frost or a collection of Thomas Nast political cartoons. I fell deeply in love with all things comics and cartoons. I was very interested in not just what was currently on the Hey Kids Comics spinner rack, but what had been published 50, 100 years before that! A lot of the older folks who were founders of comics fandom like Jerry Bails and Roy Thomas were interested in the past, too, so I took a cue from them. Most were primarily interested in Golden Age super-heroes. But my friends Don and Maggie Thompson were into comic strips like Crockett Johnson’s “Barnaby” or Fredrick Opper’s “Happy Hooligan,” and more! CBC: Were you already going to used bookstores before you discovered comics? Were you already interested in books? Were you a regular reader? Craig: Interesting question, Jon! No, not really. The guys that got me into comics got me into reading “real books,” too. Well, not that real. Low-brow stuff like James Bond paperbacks. I carefully removed a safe-for-school paperback cover from the Odyssey and pasted it over the cover of the contraband Spy Who Loved Me. This way I could clandestinely read the forbidden fruit in study hall. You could get hauled into the principal’s office for reading a James Bond book, have to pull down your pants, and get swats with a leather paddle as punishment! Ian Fleming Bond books had “dirty parts,” which I, of course, dog-eared for easy repeated readings. Today a teacher would be just damn thrilled to see a kid reading a damn book! CBC: Did a daily newspaper come into the house?

Craig: Yes, definitely: The Akron Beacon Journal. Every day, with a thump on the porch, the rolled-up paper, wrapped with the useless news and sports sections to protect the precious comics inside, magically arrived… “Peanuts,” “B.C.,” and “Wizard of ID”… I loved all that stuff! CBC: Did you have a favorite cartoonist? Who’s somebody you wanted to draw like? Craig: I wanted to be Steve Ditko! I still do! Some of my first fanzine creations were for Mike Raub’s Wonderment. I was sharing the zine’s pages with Gene Simmons, later of KISS. Gene just wrote an intro to our second volume of the popular book series Super Weird Heroes. For Wonderment, I did a twopage comic of the super-hero I dreamed up, The Cyclone. Every damn panel was a swipe from Ditko! He was and is my idol. Ditko is the undisputed King of Comics, right?! As far as comic strips, I loved “Animal Crackers.” Does anybody remember that? The artist, Roger Bollen, was a Cleveland guy, so I thought, “Oh, gee, somebody not from New York is doing comics.” That intrigued me. Maybe I can be a cartoonist even though I’m stuck in Akron F*cking Ohio! My dad played a big, important part in this, too. On Sunday mornings, when I was a cute little tyke, he’d send me out to the porch to bring in the Sunday funnies. I’d climb into bed with him and he’d read me the comics out-loud. Blondie, Dick Tracy, and Beetle mania! I think some of my love for comics has to do with good family feelings. I think nostalgia’s not a popular word in fandom right now, but I’m nostalgic about those times. Now, with my kids, we read comic books together: Little Lulu, Uncle Scrooge, Stan and Steve’s Amazing Spider-Man, Dog Man, Jimmy Olsen, Sugar and Spike. It’s very special. CBC: I used to read Kamandi and Sgt. Rock to my kids. Hey, that’s what they wanted. “You want me to read them? Okay.” [laughter] Better than Spawn. Craig: Dear God, Jon! With that line-up, I’m sure your kids have “issues” now! If I had known you were doing that, I would’ve called Child Protective Services on you! [laughter] Reading Sgt. Rock to your kids instead of Little Lulu! Bad parenting! [laughter] CBC: We would go off on adventures and march around. The youngest of my boys would be Bulldozer and middle one would be Little Sure Shot. My oldest would be Sgt. Rock.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

includes many people nobody has ever heard of. As a historian, I know and enjoy so many greats and yet, being aware of their abilities can be extremely intimidating. I’ve had years of literal and painful artist’s block and they’re a big reason for that! Oy vey! CBC: You were into Ditko when you were in your teens. When did you become a fan and get involved in fandom? Craig: I think the same guy, Chuck, who turned me on to Marvel Comics found information about fandom and showed me The Rocket’s Blast ComiCollector. We both became members of CAPA-alpha, which was a comics “apa.” An “apa” was a group of science-fiction or comics fans who printed their own fanzines and sent them to a central mailer. The central mailer would staple them together into one ginormous ’zine and mail that back to all the members. Frank Miller was a member of CAPA-alpha when he was a kid, and the apa is still going strong with over 650 issues! I joined CAPA-alpha and I think Don and Maggie Thompson were the central mailers at that time. They lived about an hour from me, up in Mentor, Ohio. My mom drove me and my friend to the Thompsons’ home one Saturday, and we helped staple all the fanzines together. Another time, we helped Don and Maggie assemble a big issue of their fabled fanzine Comic Art. It was a pretty heavy experience being part of fandom and publishing my own ’zine as a teenager. My mom was supportive and bought me a used mimeograph machine from some church that was getting rid of it. So, I set up a little print shop in the basement. I typed up my ’zine, drew pictures, and printed it as part of CAPA-alpha. There were CAPA-alpha members in Australia and France. I think most of the members weren’t teenagers. There were adults like the Thompsons. There was Fred Patton, John Ryan, and Jerry Bails, who started “K-a,” as it was called. Jerry Bails was considered the founder of comics fandom and I was honored to get a “Spirit of Jerry Bails Fandom Award” a few years ago. These were grownups and they were treating me as an equal! It was heady! People like the esteemed comics historian Bill Blackbeard were praising my efforts! Yow! Guys from Europe were saying nice things about my work! This was incredibly affirming and educational! It was a wonderful life-changing experience! CBC: What was the name of your fanzine that was in CAPA-alpha? Craig: YOEssarian. CBC: Really? [laughter] Was it related to Catch-22 or no? Craig: Yeah! Sure! Of course! I was the token hippie of the group! Catch-22 threw me for a loop. It was bitterly funny, anti-war, rebellious, and going against the grain. I identified with the character Yossarian, and it was the first time I played on the name, Yoe. My parents were marketing geniuses coming up with this surname, heh-heh! CBC: That’s great! YOEssarian! How old were you? Craig: I think I was around 16. A babe in the woods! CBC: Sixteen, reading Joseph Heller. Pretty good, Craig Yoe. Pretty good. [chuckles] Craig: Yeah. It was the dawning of the age of Aquarius! I soon got caught up in comic books, Marvel Pop Art Productions, The Beatles, started grow-

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Ziggy TM & © Ziggy & Friends, Inc. American Greeting Cards © the respective copyright holder.

Above: The fourth issue of Craig Yoe’s fanzine, YOEssarrian, which was included in various issues of CAPA-alpha, the first amateur press association publication devoted to comics. The name of his ’zine, of course, is a pun on his name combined with that of Catch-22’s John Yossarian, the protagonist of Joseph Heller’s savagely satirical anti-war novel. Below: During a visit to Cleveland, Craig went in search of Robert Crumb artifacts and met with Crumb’s art director at American Greetings, Tom Wilson, who went on to fame as creator of the “Ziggy” comic strip. Inset right: Craig walked out of that visit with a veritable treasure trove. “I asked Tom if he had any of Crumb’s cards or maybe even some artwork,” Craig said. “He gave me a giant box of original artwork, because I said I was going to write an article for my fanzine.”

Craig: Sheesh! Growing up, I certainly spent time playing Army with my friend Tommy. I enjoyed it—I won’t deny it—but Army was all he wanted to play, “bangbang, pow-pow!” Tommy eventually “bang-bang, pow-pow!” himself: he tragically took his own life. His sister horribly did the same a couple years later. I’m thankful that all that bangbang, pow-pow didn’t really affect me. I grew up to be a pacifist, and an anti-war and anti-gun activist. I don’t know if playing Army incessantly damaged Tommy or if he was already damaged; in any case his grim ending was extremely sad. There’s that. CBC: Was Dr. Seuss an influence on you? Craig: Gosh, as you ask that question, Seuss is just now being vilified on the internet as a racist! I haven’t wanted to believe this, but an analysis of his output shows he certainly wasn’t progressive about race, or positively inclusive in his books, to say the very least. So, hopefully there was no influence on me on that front! My mom didn’t buy Dr. Seuss books. You know, he wasn’t accepted for creative reasons by librarians and teachers at first, and I imagine my mom followed suit. I never saw Seuss books as a kid at home or school. I started buying them as an adult. I think the great cartoonist George Erling psyched me about Seuss’s art. I love his drawing style and it has influenced my art. I’d like to think my art has many influences, Jon. I could list 25 artists or more that I have tried to learn from. There’s Seuss, Dali, Crumb, Griffin, Moscoso, Wolverton, Steinberg, Wood, Carlson, Magritte, Goldberg, Rogers, Duchamp, Sagendorf, Miro, Bushmiller, Jacovitti, Picasso, DeCarlo, Crane, Fleischer, Disney, Zim, Steranko, Beardsley, Shoemaker, Messmer… the list goes on and on, and

Firestone High School yearbook page courtesy of David Scroggy.

ing my hair long, became a hippie, got turned on to underground comix, became fervently anti-war. There were clubs in high school. I couldn’t be caught dead in things like the Booster Club, I was only in the art club. Chrissie Hynde (of The Pretenders) and Dave Scroggy (from Dark Horse Comics) were two of the people in the small artsy-fartsy group. But, then I started my own school club called the War Resistors League! Again, Chrissie and Dave were members. Some girl also showed up and it was… instantly… love at first sight! I was speaking in front of the classroom, preaching against the Vietnam War while eating a sandwich, and I looked out and saw this striking girl. She was impressed that I was speaking, while chomping on a sandwich, not giving a f*ck what people thought. Our first date was a Janis Joplin concert. Soon, I was married to Janet Morra for 25 years and had three amazing kids, Avarelle, Valissa, and Donovan. CBC: You became a man! Craig: Yoeman! CBC: Your mom got you the mimeograph machine. Did you show your fanzine to your parents? Craig: Yeah. CBC: Were they a part of your affirmation system creatively? Craig: Dad and mom were always very supportive. I think dad had some misgivings, though, “Craig is going to visit adults who collect comic books — is this a good thing?!!” My dad had some misgivings about my hair getting long, too, it eventually went way past my waist. At the same time, in school it became popular to wear the cologne English Leather, and my dad was very uneasy… first the long hair, then tight pants, now cologne! “My son might be a homosexual!” At that time, it was thought there was something wrong with that. We know better now. A few years later, dad had his own bottle of cologne on his dresser. The times they were a changin’! CBC: Never as fast as the late ’60s, right? To look at 1965 and then 1970 looks like the country went through decades. Craig: It was a crazy time. My friends had started an underground high school newspaper, which was pretty radical and bold at the time. You were putting your life on the line because the school administration took a dim view of the idea that you were disseminating anti-establishment sentiments. The regular high school newspaper was called The Firestone Focus — we went to Firestone High School. Some hippies — there were only a handful of us — started The Crocus, the Flower Children’s answer to The Focus! My friends knew I had a mimeograph machine, so I became the Crocus’ printer and a contributing cartoonist. One of the founding staff members was an incredibly talented artist,

far better than me. His name is Paul Mavrides and he was a year behind me in school. Paul was buying underground comics and copying Gilbert Shelton’s Freak Brothers in his notebook. He went on to… CBC: … draw The Freak Brothers! Craig: … draw The Freak Brothers, quite a few years later! We were destined for these lifestyles and careers. We had a few stupendous artists in the art club. Poor Chrissie Hynde didn’t pursue her own exemplary visual arts talents so much and had to settle for a music career. But, there was something in the air. The rubber fumes from the factories we were all breathing caused Paul, Chrissie, Devo, Rachel Sweet, chart-topping songwriter Dave Kent, astronaut Judy Resnik, all these people to happen! CBC: Did you smoke pot? Craig: Yeah, besides the burning rubber fumes there was also weed. I tried it a couple of times but got some laced with strychnine or something. Reader’s Digest would print articles about the evils of LSD destroying young people’s minds and these damaged youth were no longer saluting the flag! I had one of those “bad trips” one night with this supped-up pot and it scared me sh*tless. I thought I was dying and it was totally psychedelic, but not in a good way. I still have occasional flashbacks from that trip — over 50 years later! After that experience, Jon, I became one of those hippies who proclaimed you should get “natural highs!” I’m This page: Among his classmates at Firestone High School, Craig Yoe counts renowned rocker Chrissie Hynde (right) and recently retired Dark Horse Comics luminary David Scroggy (inset above).

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Above: John Paul Filo’s Pulitzerwinning photo of the Kent State tragedy of May 4, 1970, a nearby event that had a profound effect on Craig Yoe, who would go on to edit these collections of anti-war comics seen below.

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All © the respective copyright holder.

not quite sure what those were for others, but for me it was “peace and love,” rather than “pot and LSD.” Kids were warned to avoid kids who smoked pot. In my hippie circle, I was lucky to still be accepted in light of the fact I wasn’t doing drugs. [chuckles] CBC: Were you still buying mainstream comics by the time you were 17 or 18? Craig: Ditko stopped drawing Spider-Man and I discovered ZAP Comix. ’Nuff said! More importantly, I got married when I was a teenager, so active collecting was soon tempered! But here’s what happened comics-wise: I had a complete collection of Marvel Comics, but, financially foolishly, I had Don and Maggie sell them all for me to raise money to go back to my first love of Carl Barks and John Stanley. I wanted to amass more of their comics, which my wife and I loved to read. Those comics and Crumb, Griffin, and Moscoso were my focus. Before I got married, my dad took our little nuclear family on a business trip to Chicago. He looked in a AAA guidebook about where to do touristy things. He found about Old Town, the hippie district, where people could go and stare at the Flower Children! While waiting for our food at a restaurant, I spotted a head shop across the street. I didn’t know what that was exactly, but I could tell it was something “far out” and I was attracted to it like a moth to a flame. I asked if I could go to the store while we were waiting for our food. I picked up the first issue of ZAP Comix by R. Crumb. I guess my parents had given me some vacation spending money or I had some lawn-mowing dough. I hid the ZAP from my parents in my jacket because I could see it was illicit material! Also, I picked up The Chicago Mirror, a blended smoothie of comix, satire, and hippie things. The Mirror was put out by Jay Lynch and Skip Williamson and was way-cool. When I got back to our hotel, I found a phone number and furtively called Jay Lynch. Many years later, when I moved to Chicago, we became good friends and

worked together. I hired Jay at Diamond Toy Company, where I was the art director. Jay told me he remembered when I first phoned him. Jay was an incredible creative guy with an incredible mind and memory. In our initial phone conversation, he encouraged my hippie cartooning and anti-establishment pursuits. CBC: What year was that? Craig: My family visited Chicago in 1968, when the first issue of ZAP had just came out. When I got my copy, I talked about it in YOEssarian, which I believe was the very first fandom “review” of Crumb. I was gobsmacked by Crumb comix! CBC: By 1969, you’re draft age. What were your plans? College…? Craig: Well, I reluctantly registered with the evil Selective Service as a Conscientious Objector. You had to register for the draft, but in my registration papers I stated I wouldn’t carry a gun on religious and moral grounds. The way the draft worked, you didn’t have to defend your C.O. status if you met other requirements that took precedence in keeping you out of the military. In 1969, the government had a lottery system where they drew birth dates from out of a fishbowl—my assigned number was 328 out of 365 days in the year. So there were many young men ahead of me with the bad luck of the draw who were more likely to be called to Vietnam. My friend Greg’s birth date was number one in the lottery. It really didn’t matter if you were number one or 100, you were likely in line to be drafted. But, Greg was a very paranoid pot-headed hippie, anyway, and now was positive the government had singled him out for persecution! Also, I had another deferment. I was like the weakling “before” guy in the Charles Atlas comic book ads. Very skinny, 30 pounds under what you needed to be to effectively kill for Uncle Sam and his military industrial complex. If I didn’t have a lottery number that would keep me out, or I’d leave or get kicked of college, or if I gained weight and was called to fight, then I would have had to defend my conscientious objector beliefs. If they didn’t buy my case, I had plans to escape to Canada. I had admirable beliefs about not killing and cowardly beliefs about not being killed! CBC: Where did you go to college? Craig: Akron University, but I majored in anti-war protests, so I was rarely going to class. The classes I did go to, I wasn’t making passing grades in. I was a cartoonist on the staff of the college newspaper and I snuck in an announcement. It said that I was going to burn a puppy dog for peace… [Jon laughs] to protest the napalming of children in Vietnam. The next day on the school commons right outside the student center, we did this little badly acted street theater. I had a friend pretend she was a Vietnamese woman. Another was a general who gave an order to a captain to kill her. The order finally came down to me, the private. I pretended to stab the woman with my pretend bayonet. She had a plastic bag of ketchup inside her shirt, which she burst as she pretended to over-dramatically die. Two thousand people showed up to stop the burning of the puppy dog — most of them wanted to burn me! I followed the little play with a rousing speech proclaiming “you are so worried about a puppy dog being burned! We were never going to do that, we like puppies, but you don’t even care about little children being napalmed! You people are hypocrites!” At that pronouncement, the whole crowd, with the burly football team at the front, realized that they had been played. They got really pissed off and rushed at me to pulverize me — or worse! Some big hippie was thankfully near the student center door. He pried it open as the incensed, mad crowd was trying to grab me but I somehow got inside. I lost one shoe when a football player grabbed my leg as I squeezed through the door as he held on! Another hippie inside led me to a secret tunnel under the student center used to got rid of the garbage, or something. With the one shoe I

TM & © The New Comic Company.

hobbled through the underground passage and eventually found my way up in another building that overlooked the commons. I safely watched through the window the hippies and the jocks heatedly argue things out below. Years later, I ran into an FBI agent in a church I joined. He told me how he had been assigned to me in that period and took pictures of me that day for my FBI files! [sighs] CBC: Do you remember hearing about Kent State? Craig: The day before before the shootings, I went to a Yippie gathering at Kent State. I heard Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin speak outside on the hill where the students would shorty be killed. Actually, I was very upset with what Abbie and Jerry were saying: “If you are a true revolutionary, you have to be willing to kill your parents.” That really bummed me out because I was all about peace and love and loved my mom and dad. The next day, May 4th, I was heading up an anti-war rally with a couple of friends on the Akron University campus. Many students were doing the same across the land. While we were in the middle of that, someone was listening to a transistor radio. That’s how we heard about the shooting of students at Kent State. We immediately went crazy and took over our campus, shut it down, and occupied the president’s office. We camped out there for a few days in protest--and shock. For another protest, I helped organize a march from the campus to the draft board. A law had just passed allowing you to see your draft files. We asked to see ours and then poured blood on them to protest the war. Years later, I was on a plane sitting next to a lady who looked familiar. She exclaimed, “I know where I know you from! I was a secretary at the draft board and you asked me for your files and then poured blood on them! That action pierced my heart and made me think about the war and my complicity in it. I quit my job and now I work for peace organization The American Friends Service Committee!” CBC: The Quakers. Craig: Right, the Quakers. They were working for peace. The demonstration changed her life and we became good friends and co-conspirators working on anti-war activities together. CBC: Do you think Kent State was the turning point; perhaps the peace movement made a decision to not put their lives on the line? Was there a sea change? From my perspective as a kid, it felt like a retreat. Craig: Personally, I felt that, too. One thing I loved about America back when I first got involved in the movement was that you could protest. Even though I was anti-establishment, I was pro-America because I realized we had freedoms in our country, at least us white kids did. Sadly, I was oblivious to what people of color went through down South, in Detroit, in L.A., and even across town. We white kids could protest. Yeah, you might get in some trouble, but you could publish an underground high school newspaper and you could advocate for your right to do that. I felt we had freedoms. But then there was the repression at the demonstrations at the Chicago Democratic Convention. Worse yet, then the National Guard chillingly kills four of us at Kent State! I drew a cartoon about Kent State killings for the Akron University paper. I realized, “Gee, this is serious and they’re not going to let our free flag fly!” The Kent State massacre did change the tone of things. There were other things going on, too. In the early part of the youth revolution, if you walked down the street and you saw a hippie, they were your brothers or sisters. You felt you could trust them. I was totally naïve in some ways. Still sorta am, I admit it. As time went on, after Kent State, the same people who were beating me up in high school for having long hair, now they had long hair. They liked the free love and getting high, but they didn’t care about ending the war and creating a new kind of society. The hippie movement with all our ideals was both repressed and co-opted. And hippie trappings were commercialized in fashion and peace-sign tchotch-

kes, etc. Things fell apart, sadly. I’m still a hippie, but there aren’t too many of us left anymore. CBC: I wonder if Nixon was somewhat successful in instilling this paranoia. Everything started building up by 1969… Manson… violence was rising… The Weathermen and then with Kent State, any notion of revolution stopped. Craig: You wanted Woodstock, but you also had Altamont where the guy was stabbed to death by the Hell’s Angels. Flower Children became Weathermen. It became a bad trip. CBC: Yet, the anti-war sentiment became mainstreamed, right? Craig: Certainly, yes. I remember on a cover for The Crocus, I drew Nixon as a lion eating up a peace dove. I think I stole the lion from Thomas Nast and Nixon’s head from David Levine from used cartoon books I bought. My parents were upset by my cartoon, “Craig, you’re being disrespectful of the president!” A few years later, they hated Nixon, too. CBC: Mainstreaming dissent. [laughter] Craig: Like much of the country, my parents eventually realized we shouldn’t have been in Vietnam. Again, the times were a changin’… During the anti-war movement, I was reprinting old cartoons by the commies from the early part of the

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Above: Craig Yoe edited Jubilee, a Christian-inspired publication with Rick Griffin cover art. Below: It was a performance by singer Carlos Suris which led to a spiritual awakening for Craig, who converted to become, in his words, a “Jesus Freak.”

This page: In his interview, Craig vividly describes his religious conversion: “All of a sudden, I got zapped, like Captain Marvel’s lightning bolt, or that character on the ZAP comic getting an electric jolt! I had a born-again experience. My life, from that second, had a radical change. I became a Jesus Freak.” During one effort to make converts, Yoe was charged with trespassing, which led to this amusing news article and his smiling mugshot. Craig also edited a religious publication, Jesus Loves You, (artifacts of which seen here).

voice be heard. The anti-war movement in the ’60s and early ’70s became big and I think it had a lot to do with ending the Vietnam War. Today, there’s still plenty of war going on in this world. There’s thankfully still some anti-war activists, but there’s not a giant anti-war movement like we saw in the ’60s. We need the Beatles or something to happen to change things again. CBC: What did you want to do? Were you living in the moment? Did you have plans for the future? Did you want to be an artist, a cartoonist? Craig: I had been involved in coffee houses where folk singers played for the hippies. After dropping out from Akron University, that became my focus. The coffee houses didn’t have a permanent location. First there was one at the Akron Art Museum, then it relocated to the basement of the church my family attended. A guy I knew from the anti-war movement decided to start a permanent place by refurbishing a dilapidated old bar. I went to check things out. “Shag” decided not to continue the daunting job of fixing up this wreck of a building, so I took up the cause. My girlfriend and I cleaned it up, made it a hippie folkie nightclub, and called it The Avalon. Folk singers played every Friday and Saturday night. I was drawing psychedelic comic strip advertisements for the place and putting them in the university’s student newspaper, The Akron Buchtelite, alongside my anti-war cartoons. Eventually, the University president had me thrown off the paper for a cartoon I drew about him being a lackey for the military industrial complex. The university under his direction had the ROTC and military contracts for chemical warfare research — you know, like napalm! But, while I was doing the cartoons, I could get free ads. Around when I got fired, I started another underground newspaper with Paul Mavrides, The Acorn, a name-play on Akron. I recall getting Tom Wilson, creative director of the American Greeting Card Company, to do one cover. CBC: Really? Was that Tom Wilson, the cartoonist of “Ziggy”…? [chuckles] Craig: Yeah. The way I met Tom… when I graduated from high school, I had become so enamored with ZAP Comix and R. Crumb that I started collecting Crumb’s greeting cards. I used to find them in racks in grocery stores. I realized that Crumb had done them for American Greetings, which was up in #20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Jesus Loves You TM & © the respective copyright holder.

century, like Art Young and Robert Minor, and passed them out on the sidewalks of the campus. Comics and cartoons were a thread through all of this for me. CBC: These were pamphlets? Craig: Right. They were crude because I was mostly using my mimeograph machine. I would create a stencil for the words using a regular typewriter. Then, I had to tear the cartoons out of books, bring them to a mimeograph store where they’d make an “electronic stencil.” Then, I had to glue the word stencils and the art stencils together and print them by hand-cranking out each page on my mimeograph machine. The reproductions were primitive at best. Some people would use “ditto machines” and I did that a couple of times, too. That was an even lousier process. They had some kind of primitive way of creating a “Ditto master” that you could reproduce art in shitty purple ink instead of the mimeo’s sh*tty black. Years later, I used these and many other anti-war drawings for a book I did, The Great Anti-War Cartoons. This time, the cartoons were beautifully reproduced in rich black ink on glossy paper! It’s exciting that we now have effective methods to restore and reproduce classic comic art for posterity! I’m still doing what I was doing over 50 years ago in my parent’s basement, but now I can do it so much better! When these anti-war, political cartoons were originally created in the beginning years of the 20th century, they were powerful. When I was reprinting them in the ’60s, they were still powerful. And in the book I finally did, they were powerful. Since then, as you may know, Jon, I put together another anti-war book, this time, of comic book stories. It’s The Unknown Anti-War Comics and features Steve Ditko and other artists. There’s a comics introduction by March artist Nate Powell and a foreword by Noel Paul Stookey, of Peter, Paul and Mary. Nobel Peace Prize winner Jody Williams calls the book “powerful and timely!” Even though I doubt it will have any effect at all, I’m still stubbornly letting my freak flag fly! I think that vintage comics and cartoons against war are still powerful and sadly, for the rest of my life, they’re probably going to be relevant. War doesn’t seem to be going away anytime soon. But, we peace-mongers can keep trying and doing the right thing in our own small ways, letting our

Rick Griffin artwork © the estate of Rick Griffin.

Cleveland, 45 minutes from Akron. I drove to American Greetings’ art department, housed in an old rundown factory. I told the security guy I wanted to see somebody wanting to know more about the Crumb greeting cards. He got on his loudspeaker and announced me. Tom Wilson bounded out of his little five-foot by fivefoot office and yelled, “Robert!” He misheard the guard and I was skinny like Crumb, so Wilson, in a moment of confusion, thought I was the master himself! I asked Tom if he had any of Crumb’s cards or maybe even some artwork. He gave me a giant box of original artwork, because I said I was going to write an article for my fanzine. Never did do the article, life got in the way. Years later, I was tempted to keep the art. Nobody seemed to care, but I brought the box back. Somebody eventually got a hold of it because the art came on the market. Tom told me he discovered Robert down in production, when he saw the doodles Crumb drew on his desk blotter. Tom also gave me a photo of Crumb from his bulletin board and introduced me to the staff writer, John Gibbons, who he said could tell me more. John was a jazz and blues lover and turned Crumb onto the “Keep On Truckin’” song! John gave me the “Sad” book he did with Crumb and his resume, which was an amazing Xeroxed Crumb comic! At this visit, Tom showed me some tiny books he drew for American Greetings with this squat little nebbish character [chuckles] — he didn’t even have a name! That day, I gave him an issue of YOEssarian, in which a friend of mine from high school, Jack Poinski, drew a funny and surreal comic strip with a similarly nebbish character formally named Ziegfried Schlump, nicknamed Ziggy. I’m not saying Tom subconsciously or consciously lifted the name, but, shortly thereafter, Tom created a newspaper feature with his nebbish character now named Ziggy. At a later meet-up, Tom gave me some of his artwork to use for one of our Acorn underground newspaper covers. CBC: Did Acorn have a lot of comics in it? Craig: Stupidly no, I don’t think we had any. But Paul Mavrides and I were doing cartoon illustrations. Like a lot of undergrounds, we were members of the Underground Press Syndicate. You could use any comics that Crumb had in the underground newspapers or the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, but for some dumb reason, I don’t think we reprinted them. Or drew new comics for Acorn. However, I used the fact that I was doing this underground newspaper as an excuse to call Crumb. Bill Blackbeard gave me his phone number. I told Robert, “Hey, we wanna use some of your comics. Is that okay?” I remember there was a baby crying in the background which startled me — R. Crumb was a real human being! [chuckles]. He kindly said, “Fine, go ahead, but you should be drawing your own comix!” He was really evangelical about underground comix back then. He was encouraging people to draw, become part of the movement, and get their creativity on! CBC: Did you have any encounters with Harvey Pekar? Craig: I had kept collecting books and going to these big library book sales. I was up in Cleveland in line, waiting for the doors to open for a sale — you tried to get in first and make a mad scramble. They were selling these Pogo and New Yorker cartoon collections and stuff for 25¢ each, but you had to get in the auditorium quick. I was with my girlfriend and a friend who I brought to help me grab as many cartoon books as possible. I was instructing them, “Here’s the kind of books I want…” A guy behind me overheard the conversation and asked, “You’re into cartoons?” Turned out it was Pekar, and that’s how we first met. It was a smaller world of comic folk back then. CBC: Right. Craig: My eventual brother-in-law lived on a tiny artsy block called Hester Street, near the Cleveland Art Museum. Crumb used to live there, too, I was told. On Hester there was a little head shop where they were selling some very early pre-ZAP Crumb ’zines he had given them. I still have

the ones I bought. Crumb was never exactly a hippie, but he had friends who were, and that was his base. He was, and is, his own person and pictured all sides through his “Crumb-lens.” He was and is a god to me, even if there was a baby in his house crying in the background! CBC: So you had the coffee shop and you’re doing The Acorn. How long did The Acorn last? Craig: Just a few issues. I was running the Avalon coffeehouse, which was open two nights a week. We were always looking for folk singers. One musician told me, “There’s this singer who’s really good, named Carlos Suris.” I booked him. We didn’t even audition people: “come do your own thing, baby!” Carlos sang the most beautiful, melodious songs. He was a gifted classical guitarist. His music was mesmerizing. I listened to the lyrics. They had a spiritual aspect to them that really intrigued me. Carlos seemed to glow like an angel. After he finished his set, I told him, “Your music really touched a deep part of me.” He replied, “That was Jesus speaking through my music. Why don’t you come with me tomorrow night to a meeting we have in Newton, Ohio, at a place called The Barn and learn more.” So I went with Carlos to the Barn in our VW van with psychedelic flowers painted all over it. We sat on haystacks in the old drafty barn alongside hippies speaking in tongues. There were also “straights,” stout ladies with beehives belting out gospel

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

This page: Craig Yoe was part of the Akron “Jesus People” movement in the early ’70s, with his Jesus Loves You church. “A good number of us started living communally,” he later told the Scoop e-newsletter. “We created and printed comic books to spread our message.” Comix artist Rick Griffin (below) was one such contributor.

Above: For the one-shot Jubilee [1975], a rare Christian comics paperback, Craig Yoe produced this two-pager, “The Year of Jubilee,” an example of early 20th century humor comic strip influence on the his work. Below: 1971 pic of Christian underground comix artist (and master of the psychedelic rock concert poster), ZAP Comix collective member Rick Griffin.

The hippies that hung out at the Avalon either became Christians, or they hated us and slammed the door on the way out saying, “F*ck you, Jesus Freaks!” We had sublet part of our building to a hippie head shop that sold beads, posters, and drug paraphernalia. They trucked on out of there when things changed. We made that space the Jesus Free Store. We gave out clothing and food to the needy. We were in a poor neighborhood. Welfare organizations that might have too much red tape to help people in immediate need would send them to us. We’d send these hungry people home with soup and bread and clothing. Plus, we rented a big room to an alternative school led by older hippies. Some people had their children drop out of school and were trying to teach them themselves. That room became a place for Bible studies, too. Then, we started renting houses next door and creating communes for people to live and share their Christian lives. The Acorn became Jesus Loves You, a hippie Christian underground newspaper. We’d go out in the streets to pass out Jesus Loves You. I hooked up with ZAP Comix artist Rick Griffin, who became a Christian, and we used his artwork in the paper. That’s what happened to me, our coffeehouse, and Acorn. CBC: You were evangelical then? Craig: I hate that term, “evangelical” because of the horrible, horrible things being done in Christ’s name by these so-called evangelicals today. I loathe the idea of being thought to be in any way like that heinous movement. I find their beliefs and actions repugnant and in direct opposition to Christ’s teachings. Back then, we didn’t think of ourselves as “evangelizing.” We were hippie Christians trying to lovingly and joyfully turn people on to what we had discovered. If we met a hungry person on the street, we would invite them to the Jesus Free Store where they could get food and clothing gratis, no sermons, no strings attached. We

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

“The Year of Jubilee” © Craig Yoe. Rick Griffin photo © John Van Hamersveld.

tunes of old time religion! It was a crazy environment. At the end, everybody was speaking in tongues, praising God, and Carlos is strumming his guitar while a holy-roller guy is fervently preaching. All of a sudden, I got zapped, like Captain Marvel’s lightning bolt, or that character on the ZAP comic getting an electric jolt! I had a born-again experience. My life, from that second, had a radical change. I became a Jesus Freak. It didn’t happen overnight, but the Avalon coffeehouse evolved. We’d still have the hippie nightclub on the weekends, but on Wednesday nights, we’d have prayer meetings and Bible studies. Eventually, the spiritual aspect took over.

Ain’t It Fun panel © Aaron Lange. Craig Yoe portrait © Kendall Whitehouse. Jesus Loves You Comics TM & © the respective copyright holder.

would, to the best of our abilities, try to show them Jesus’ teachings mainly through actions. CBC: Proselytizing? Craig: Proselytizing sounds very onerous. As hippies, I think we were looking for peace, love, long hair, and Jesus. [chuckles] We hippie Christians felt we found that. The hippie movement seemed to be getting compromised, but we decided to align ourselves with Christ and his teachings about loving your neighbor, loving your enemy, feeding the hungry, helping those who were sick, and visiting those in prison. Jesus and his teachings, we wanted to do our best to follow. And there was the community. Many of us pooled our resources, meager as they were, and lived together communally. We shared our money and things, and tried to help people. CBC: How long did the communal set-up last? Craig: Four or five years. We preached God’s love on the streets, pretty loudly I admit, we wanted to reach as many people as we could with the “Good News.” One time, me and a few other of our street team got arrested on the charge of “disturbing the peace due to clamor and noise.” CBC: “Due to clamor and noise”! [laughter] Craig: So we went to jail. Before our court appearance, many people wrote The Akron Beacon Journal letters in our defense. The judge let us off because he knew that the public was weighing in against the idea of prosecuting kids spreading a message of “peace, love, and help the poor.” CBC: Were you drawing during those years? Craig: Yes, I was drawing comics for the Jesus Loves You newspaper. Then we started our own little comic book line. We did some hippie Christian mini-comix and a large paperback book, Jubilee. The name refers to the Old Testament admonition where every seventh year you opened up your field to the poor. They ate from your crops and you forgave them any debts. We were socialist Christians! Rick Griffin served as a co-editor of Jubilee and painted an insanely cool cover about when Jesus turned water into wine — not wine into water, as some Christians would have it! At that time, I did an underground comic called Sammy Saved & Al Most. It was an attempt to have a ZAP Comix for Christians to spread the word of the Jesus movement. I was certainly no R. Crumb in the drawing chops. I didn’t even understand how to color the cover technically for printing, so Rick did that for me. I went out to California to meet Christian cartoonists for future publications. I started up north and went to Charles Schulz’s studio because he was a Christian and we had a great talk. Next stop was Santa Cruz, where I met Jim Phillips. He eventually did a comic for us called Eternal

Truth. Jim was and is a brilliant artist. He went on to well-deserved fame for his posters and crazy rad art for skateboards. But the art in Eternal Truth is amazing, too. I finally ended up down in San Clemente to hook up with Rick Griffin. We talked about the painting he was doing for the cover of a collection of Jesus Loves You material to be printed by a big publisher. CBC: You say you visited California. Were you just anchored in the Ohio area? There was no thought of going to New York or the West Coast? Craig: No, I was an Akron boy. Tire Town was my headquarters. That’s where my family was. That’s where my hippie church and our communes were. That’s where I was drawing my comix. I’m glad I eventually didn’t stay there, though. Akron is a good place to be from, if you catch my drift.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

Inset left: Indie cartoonist Aaron Lange includes Craig in his stillin-progress project called Ain’t It Fun, a graphic bio of musician Peter Laughner. Below: Craig in a Kendall Whitehouse portrait taken at the Asbury Park ComiCon, in 2013. Bottom: Cover of Jesus Loves Me Comics #1 (early 1970s], edited by Craig.

TO BE CONTINUED

incoming

Of Things Wood and Rude

Our letters col returns, with missives on the essay on Woody and Rude’s interview Write to CBC: jonbcooke@ aol.com or P. O. Box 204, West Kingston, RI 02892

[Ulp! Had to skip the letters column last time out, but glad to have it back! Keep sendin’ ’em cards ’n’ letters, people! — Ye Crusading Editor]

David J. Hogan

Received the digital copy of CBC #17 a week or so ago and the print issue today. Very pleased with what you and the team did with my Outré piece about Woody. Handsome layout — and I’m really taken with the decision to make the final art piece (which links to the piece’s final sentiment) a circular one. Striking and effective. Thanks for a faithful edit. Wood has meant a great deal to me for 50 years, so to see the article presented so smartly is a real treat. Thanks again, Jon, and to all at CBC, for a sterling job. [Thank you, David! Your essay was a godsend! — Y.E.]

Ian Millsted

Joe Frank An interesting twist with CBC #18: usually, the focus is more on history with a touch of philosophy included. Here, for once, in the Steve Rude discussion, just the opposite. More of an extended personal viewpoint with occasional instances of comic book doings thrown in. As it was, seemingly, a one-time experiment, it was a novel change. Shows there’s more than one way to do an interview. Interest14

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The World of TwoMorrows © TwoMorrows Publishing. Photo by and © Dan Greenfield.

Above: Ye Ed is helming the celebration of the 25 th anniversary of co-editor John Morrow’s publishing company, The World of TwoMorrows, coming this fall. Dig Tom McWeeny’s simply fantastic cover art! Below: Earlier this year, Cliff Galbraith, who runs the East Coast ComiCon and is a longtime pal of Ye Ed, suggested we team to start a new award sporting this magazine’s name. Thus, with great pleasure, I was honored to present the superb George Pérez with the Comic Book Creator Lifetime Achievement Award, at the New Jersey show, on May 16, 2019.

Interesting and poignant that the issue with the piece about Wally Wood [in CBC #17] was also the one that coincided with the news of the death of Flo Steinberg. I really enjoyed David Hogan’s bio-essay about Wood. I first became aware of Wood’s work through the U.K. editions of Marvel Comics in the mid-’70s, only later becoming aware of his work for EC and others. The work I would like to have read more about, as I’ve never seen a copy or much of the work from it, is witzend. Clearly never a money-spinner for Wood, but it would have been interesting to explore how he selected the people who contributed etc. I do have a copy of the Sky Masters collection and concur with Hogan about the quality of the work of Kirby and Wood combined on that. A high-water mark if ever there was one. I did think that Hogan was a little unfair on Marie Severin. His reference to her as “a lesser pencil artist,” while he refers to Ross Andru as “more cartoony” stood out, especially as the point he is trying to make is essentially the same. I’d be interested to see copies of Marie’s uninked work on The Cat to see if the criticism holds water. My instinct, having seen the issues of that series inked by others is that she did a great job. I appreciate you were packing a lot into this issue but it would have been nice to see some of those Wood covers at a larger size. (And nice to see the Ditko Superman page at magazine size.)

ing to read, even in various instances where I vigorously disagreed. Steve Rude, thankfully, included the notation that it was just what he thought and no one else need agree or follow along. The wonderful art examples shown reinforced what a talented artist he is, many I’d not seen previously. The Wonder Woman examples had such a humanity and warmth to them. Amusingly, if DC didn’t care for his renditions of Superman or Batman, echoing back to the earliest versions, that makes him more reverent to the characters, as created, than the company calling the shots. I could better understand it if DC were doing only one rendition of the characters or emphasized a singular vision. That’s far from the case. Many of the company-approved alterations look to actively undermine or radically reinterpret the heroes. Many of the re-imaginings don’t honor what came before. In fact, they undercut/contradict it. So, how a rendition that honors the original interpretation is a problem is puzzling. Still, their company and characters to do with as they wish, no matter what we might think of the dubious results. That’s why I don’t bother reading them any longer. The names are often the only tie to the characters I remember. What’s sad is though Steve tried to do new characters — his own — in the direct market, the response may not have made it feasible. That, to me, is a shame. If a talented creator is willing to try something distinctive or intriguing — introducing and developing new characters rather than taking something existing in an incompatible direction — fans should respond with curiosity and, hopefully, encouragement. That isn’t always the case. In a better market, seasoned pros like Steve and numerous others would be actively welcome to create and be treated as an asset rather than waiting vainly for scripts and assignments. If that’s what treatment long-time pros receive, where’s their incentive to stay or for younger talent to expect any better? Also thought it interesting when Steve was asked about attending Comic Con and said he wasn’t doing so at present. With such huge gatherings being increasingly less focused on actual comic books and the people behind them, in comparison to movie promotion, film celebrities and costuming, where’s the gain for a creator to sit around all weekend waiting for interaction or appreciation? I know, as a fan, it’s been about ten years since the crowds and congestion made it personally intolerable. While I echo Steve’s fondness for Kirby art and Jack personally, I disagree with his view that Steve Ditko art was “ugly.” Complete divergence there. It was distinctive and fun. So many Ditko character designs and faces were perfect. I wouldn’t have traded Jonah Jameson or the Vulture for handsome leading men types. They worked so well because they were character actors. As for Rich Buckler’s Deathlok, interesting how even as a then-new character, editors told him what could and couldn’t be done with it. Why not let a new creator experiment or develop a series in a personal or unique way? As a book striving to achieve a new identity and approach, why rein it in needlessly? Especially as it wasn’t connected to existing books or concepts. If everything today is unified, across the line, there were and are other options. Rich, in the interview, seemed quite proud of his accomplishment.

Only read a few issues and it wasn’t to my taste. But, given time and encouragement, maybe it could have caught on? As for Neal Adams’ Jungle Man, it greatly reminded me of another ape man. Is there some major difference I’m overlooking? Ten Questions was an interesting addition. Almost an ironic contrast. Usually, the interviews are so extensive. Here, it’s more like just a taste of what could be or testing the tape recorder.

Jason Strangis

The Cat TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

I just finished reading your interview with Steve Rude in Comic Book Creator. Thanks so much for all the insight into Steve’s remarkable life. I’ve always found Steve to be very thoughtful, introspective, and not afraid to speak his mind and go against the grain — much like myself. In a world that sometimes goes PC crazy, it’s nice to know that others are free-thinkers and not involved in “group think.” I consider myself an independent thinker as well, in all regards of life, and thank God I won’t be turned into a Pod Person like so many mindless followers of popular trends (just like Invasion of the Body Snatchers, right?). Steve is not only a brilliant and talented artist, but a very interesting guy as well. And thanks to you, Jon, for sharing your struggles with addiction (like myself, it seems, with drinking), so others can relate. Much appreciated. I first met you at your table at the 1998 San Diego Comic-Con and I bought all the early issues of Comic Book Artist and The Jack Kirby Collector. I don’t know if you remember, but that was one of my highlights of Comic-Con ’98! Over the years, TwoMorrows publications have provided me with so much fun reading material and joy! Thanks again and continued success!

Ben Gross I just got the Wally Wood issue and have, so far, read only the re-printed Outré article on Wally. Please permit me to me to offer what I think is a bit of constructive criticism. While the article presents a fairly good overview of Woody’s life and work, there are some glaring omissions. What really struck me is the total failure to describe Wood’s departure from MAD magazine. From what I have read, Wood was asked by Gaines/Feldstein to re-draw an assignment, allegedly for being sub-stanCOMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

dard work. Whereupon the hyper-sensitive artist summarily quit. Gaines/Feldstein pleaded with Wally many times to return to the fold, even eventually telling him that they were only joking about the re-draw request!!! But Wally would have none of it, his fragile pride had already been too damaged. Incidentally, the so-called rejected artwork is excellent, easily as good or better than the work turned in by replacement artist Bob Clarke. So what really happened we may never know. This whole incident is a real insight into Woods’ flawed personality. MAD was Wally’s main account, the best publisher he’d ever had or would have. but Wally had to kill the golden goose. This break with MAD was, I think, the beginning of the long, downward spiral. As such, the episode deserves a far more in depth discussion in any article that purports to be an exhaustive look at Wally’s career. And my point? Well, as editor and comics historian, I think you needed to slip into the text (as an editor’s note) at least a paragraph or two, and better yet, a sidebar to more fully examine this critical event. There are other things in the article that neglect or simply gloss over other events and work. But I need not go into it here. And finally, what I would have liked to have had in the mag are some much larger images of Woods’ artwork. The first article has the cover gallery, but the images are printed in a size far too small to be able to appreciate the artwork, especially the EC covers. I mean, if you are going to show a cover or two, way not really show them? Also, showing a few of Woods’ best hyper detailed EC sci-fi splash pages at a decent size would have been really nice. So I think that the issue was not quite the visual feast of Wood that it could have been. Also, try to keep in mind that many of your readers may be north of the half-century mark in age. Printing images in a small size might not be the best way to present the artwork. [Your “editor’s note” suggestion is very much appreciated. And thanks for your continued support via your encouraging letters, Ben — Y.E.] Above: Well, I certainly can’t say I ever expected I would ever spend a Saturday afternoon with one of my cartoonist gods, yet I did get to break bread with Robert Crumb, along with my brother Andrew and pal Drew Friedman, in a New York City restaurant, in early March. The fact he posed for these promotion pix made the unforgettable day even better! 15

COMIC BOOK CREATOR #2

JOE KUBERT double-size tribute issue! With comprehensive examinations of each facet of Joe’s career, from Golden Age artist and 3-D comics pioneer, to top Tarzan artist, editor, and founder of the Kubert School. KUBERT INTERVIEWS, rare art, testimonials, remembrances, portraits, anecdotes, and interviews with JOE KUBERT, ADAM & ANDY KUBERT, RUSS HEATH, and FRANK THORNE! (164-page FULL-COLOR mag) $17.95 (Digital Edition) $7.95

4-issue subscriptions: $43 US $66 International

COMIC BOOK CREATOR #4 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #5 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #6

RUSS HEATH career-spanning interview, essay on Heath’s work by S.C. RINGGENBERG (and Heath art gallery), MORT TODD on working with STEVE DITKO, a profile of alt cartoonist DAN GOLDMAN, part two of our MARK WAID interview, DENYS COWAN on his DJANGO series, VIC BLOOM and THE SECRET ORIGIN OF ARCHIE ANDREWS, HEMBECK, new KEVIN NOWLAN cover!

DENIS KITCHEN close-up—from cartoonist, publisher, author, and art agent, to his friendships with HARVEY KURTZMAN, R. CRUMB, WILL EISNER, and many others! Plus we look at the triumphant final splash of the late, great BILL EVERETT, Prof. CAROL L. TILLEY discusses the shoddy research and falsified evidence in the book SEDUCTION OF THE INNOCENT, DENYS COWAN interview part two, and more!

SWAMPMEN: MUCK-MONSTERS OF THE COMICS dredges up The Heap! Man-Thing! Swamp Thing! Marvin the Dead Thing! Bog Beast! The Lurker and It! and other creepy man-critters of the 1970s bayou! Features interviews with WRIGHTSON, MOORE, PLOOG, WEIN, GERBER, BISSETTE, VEITCH, MAYERIK, MOONEY, TOTLEBEN, VEITCH, and others. FRANK CHO cover!

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The creators of Madman and Flaming Carrot—MIKE ALLRED & BOB BURDEN— share a cover and provide comprehensive interviews and art galore, plus BILL SCHELLY is interviewed about his new HARVEY KURTZMAN biography; we present the conclusion of our BATTON LASH interview; STAN LEE on his final European comic convention tour; fan-favorite HEMBECK, and more!

JOE STATON on his comics career (from E-MAN, to co-creating The Huntress, and his current stint on the Dick Tracy comic strip), plus we showcase the lost treasure GODS OF MOUNT OLYMPUS drawn by Joe! Plus, Part One of our interview with the late STAN GOLDBERG, JOHN WORKMAN’s Mighty Aphrodite, GEORGE KHOURY talks with artist LEILA LEIZ, plus HEMBECK and more!

WARP examined! Massive PETER BAGGE retrospective! It’s a double focus on the Broadway sci-fi epic, with a comprehensive feature including art director NEAL ADAMS and director STUART (Reanimator) GORDON, plus cast and crew! Also a career-spanning conversation with the man of HATE! and NEAT STUFF on the real story behind Buddy Bradley! Plus the revival of MIRACLEMAN, Captain Marvel’s 75th birthday, and more!

Retrospective on GIL KANE, co-creator of the modern Green Lantern and Atom, and early progenitor of the graphic novel. Kane cover newly-inked by KLAUS JANSON, plus remembrances from friends, fans, and collaborators, and a Kane art gallery. Also, our tribute to the late HERB TRIMPE, interview with PAUL LEVITZ about his new book Will Eisner: Champion of the Graphic Novel, and more!

JACK KIRBY’s mid-life work examined, from Fantastic Four and Thor at Marvel in the middle ’60s to the Fourth World at DC (including the real-life background drama that unfolded during that tumultuous era)! Plus a career-spanning interview with underground comix pioneer HOWARD CRUSE, the extraordinary cartoonist and graphic novelist of the award-winning Stuck Rubber Baby! Cover by STEVE RUDE!

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MICHAEL W. KALUTA feature interview covering his early fans days THE SHADOW, STARSTRUCK, the STUDIO, and Vertigo cover work! Plus RAMONA FRADON talks about her 65+ years in the comic book business on AQUAMAN, METAMORPHO, SUPER-FRIENDS, and SPONGEBOB! Also JAY LYNCH reveals the WACKY PACK MEN who created the Topps trading cards that influenced an entire generation!

Comprehensive KELLEY JONES interview, from early years as Marvel inker to present-day greatness at DC depicting BATMAN, DEADMAN, and SWAMP THING (chockful of rarely-seen artwork)! Plus WILL MURRAY examines the nefarious legacy of Batman co-creator BOB KANE in an investigation into tragic ghosts and rapacious greed. We also look at RAINA TELGEMEIER and her magnificent army of devotees, and more!

Celebrating 30 years of artist’s artist MARK SCHULTZ, creator of the CADILLACS AND DINOSAURS franchise, with a feature-length, career-spanning interview conducted in Mark’s Pennsylvanian home, examining the early years of struggle, success with Kitchen Sink Press, and hitting it big with a Saturday morning cartoon series. Includes rarely-seen art and fascinating photos from Mark’s amazing and award-winning career.

A look at 75 years of Archie Comics’ characters and titles, from Archie and his pals ‘n gals to the mighty MLJ heroes of yesteryear and today’s “Dark Circle”! Also: Careerspanning interviews with The Fox’s DEAN HASPIEL and Kevin Keller’s cartoonist DAN PARENT, who both jam on our exclusive cover depicting a face-off between humor and heroes. Plus our usual features, including the hilarious FRED HEMBECK!

The legacy and influence of WALLACE WOOD, with a comprehensive essay about Woody’s career, extended interview with Wood assistant RALPH REESE (artist for Marvel’s horror comics, National Lampoon, and underground), a long chat with cover artist HILARY BARTA (Marvel inker, Plastic Man and America’s Best artist with ALAN MOORE), plus our usual columns, features, and the humor of HEMBECK!

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The forerunner to COMIC BOOK CREATOR, CBA is the 2000-2004 Eisner Award winner for BEST COMICS-RELATED MAG! Edited by COMIC BOOK CREATOR’s JON B. COOKE, it features in-depth articles, interviews, and unseen art, celebrating the lives and careers of the great comics artists from the 1970s to today.

COMIC BOOK ARTIST: SPECIAL EDITION #1

ALSO BY JON B. COOKE:

WILL EISNER DOCUMENTARY WILL EISNER: PORTRAIT OF A SEQUENTIAL ARTIST is the definitive documentary on the life and art of the godfather of the American comic book. Premiering at the Tribeca Film Festival, this award-winning feature film includes interviews with KURT VONNEGUT, MICHAEL CHABON, JULES FEIFFER, ART SPIEGELMAN, FRANK MILLER, STAN LEE, GIL KANE as well as the never-before-heard “Shop Talk” audio tapes featuring JACK KIRBY, HARVEY KURTZMAN, MILTON CANIFF, NEAL ADAMS, JOE KUBERT and more! (96-minute DVD, all regions) $20 • (BLU-RAY) $26

FINAL COPIES!

COMIC BOOK ARTIST: SPECIAL EDITION #2

Previously available only to CBA subscribers! Spotlights great DC Comics of the ‘70s: Interviews with MARK EVANIER and STEVE SHERMAN on JACK KIRBY’s Fourth World, ALEX TOTH on his mystery work, NEAL ADAMS on Superman vs. Muhammad Ali, RUSS HEATH on Sgt. Rock, BRUCE JONES discussing BERNIE WRIGHTSON (plus a WRIGHTSON portfolio), and a BRUCE TIMM interview, art gallery, and cover!

Compiles the new “extras” from CBA COLLECTION VOL. 1-3: unpublished JACK KIRBY story, unpublished BERNIE WRIGHTSON art, unused JEFF JONES story, ALAN WEISS interview, examination of STEVE ENGLEHART and MARSHALL ROGERS’ 1970s Batman work, a look at DC’s rare Cancelled Comics Cavalcade, PAUL GULACY art gallery, Marvel Value Stamp history, Mr. Monster, and more!

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TwoMorrows now offers Digital Editions of Jon B. Cooke’s COMIC BOOK ARTIST Vol. 2 (the “Top Shelf” issues)

CBA Vol. 2 #1

CBA Vol. 2 #2

CBA Vol. 2 #3

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CBA Vol. 2 #5

CBA Vol. 2 #6

NEAL ADAMS/ALEX ROSS cover and interviews with both, history of “Arcade, The Comics Revue” with underground legends CRUMB, SPIEGELMAN, and GRIFFITH, MICHAEL MOORCOCK on comic book adaptations of his work, CRAIG THOMPSON sketchbook, and more!

Exhaustive FRANK CHO interview and sketchbook gallery, ALEX ROSS sketchbook section of never-before-seen pencils, MIKE FRIEDRICH on the history of Star*Reach, plus animator J.J. SEDELMAIER on his Ambiguously Gay Duo and The X-Presidents cartoons for Saturday Night Live.

Interview with DARWYN COOKE and a gallery of rarely-seen and unpublished artwork, a chat with DC Comics art director MARK CHIARELLO, an exploration of The Adventures of Little Archie with creator BOB BOLLING and artist DEXTER TAYLOR, new JAY STEPHENS sketchbook section, and more!

ALEX NIÑO’s first ever full-length interview and huge gallery of his artwork, interview with BYRON PREISS on his career in publishing, plus the most comprehensive look ever at the great Filipino comic book artists (NESTOR REDONDO, ALFREDO ALCALA, and others), a STEVE RUDE sketchbook, and more!

HOWARD CHAYKIN interview and gallery of unpublished artwork, a look at the ’70s black-&-white mags published by Skywald, tribute to Psycho and Nightmare writer/editor ALAN HEWETSON, LEAH MOORE & JOHN REPPION on Wild Girl, a SONNY LIEW sketchbook section, and more!

Double-sized tribute to WILL EISNER! Over 200 comics luminaries celebrate his career and impact: SPIEGELMAN, FEIFFER & McCLOUD on their friendships with Eisner, testimonials by ALAN MOORE, NEIL GAIMAN, STAN LEE, RICHARD CORBEN, JOE KUBERT, DAVID MAZZUCCHELLI, JOE SIMON, and others!

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TwoMorrows. The Future of Comics History.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR #18

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Career-spanning discussion with STEVE “THE DUDE” RUDE, as he shares his reallife psychological struggles, the challenges of freelance subsistence, and his creative aspirations. Also: The jungle art of NEAL ADAMS, MARY FLEENER on her forthcoming graphic novel Billie the Bee and her comix career, RICH BUCKLER interview Part Three, Golden Age artist FRANK BORTH, HEMBECK and more!

Celebrating the greatest fantasy artist of all time, FRANK FRAZETTA! From THUN’DA and EC COMICS to CREEPY, EERIE, and VAMPIRELLA, STEVE RINGGENBERG and CBC’s editor present an historical retrospective, including insights by current creators and associates, and memories of the man himself. PLUS: Frazetta-inspired artists JOE JUSKO, and TOM GRINDBERG, who contributes our Death Dealer cover painting!

(100-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $9.95 (Digital Edition) $5.95

#14: TOWER COMICS & WALLY WOOD

#19: HARVEY COMICS

History of Harvey Comics, from Hot Stuf’, Casper, and Richie Rich, to Joe Interviews with Tower and THUNDER Simon’s “Harvey Thriller” line! Interviews AGENTS alumni WALLACE WOOD, LOU with, art by, and tributes to JACK MOUGIN, SAMM SCHWARTZ, DAN KIRBY, STERANKO, WILL EISNER, AL ADKINS, LEN BROWN, BILL PEARSON, WILLIAMSON, GIL KANE, WALLY WOOD, LARRY IVIE, GEORGE TUSKA, STEVE REED CRANDALL, JOE SIMON, WARREN SKEATES, and RUSS JONES, TOWER KREMER, ERNIE COLÓN, SID JACOBSON, COMICS CHECKLIST, history of TIPPY TEEN, 1980s THUNDER AGENTS REVIVAL, FRED RHOADES, and more! New wraparound MITCH O’CONNELL cover! and more! WOOD cover!

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a chat with joltin’ joe

The Great Sinnott

Bob “Mr. Media” Andelman’s interview with the superb Mr. Joseph Sinnott!

Editor’s note: Great Godfrey! Ye Ed has long planned to finally make his long-promised sojourn to Saugerties, New York, and take Joe Sinnott out for Sunday brunch and to talk about the Joltin’ One’s fondly-recalled Treasure Chest work in the 1960s and other fun stuff. But, alas, when it came time to take a drive up the Hudson Valley, it was the dead of winter — the same time of year when Sinnott the Snowbird waits out the season and soaks up the rays in sunny Florida! We promise, God willing, to catch up with the genial gent this spring and feature our Sinnott Sunday Brunch chat next ish. In the meantime, CBC pal Bob “Mr. Media” Andelman kindly shared his convo with Joe! Inset right: At convention appearances, “Joltin’” Joe Sinnott offered prints of this selfportrait of the artist surrounded by Marvel characters. Below: For Jack Kirby’s surprise 70 th birthday party in 1987, Joe drew up this centerspread tribute for a commemorative booklet.

[When you spend your professional career interviewing famous people, there are always a few that stand out in your memory. I’ve been a comic book fan since the mid-1960s. I love comics. In fact, I wrote the only authorized biography of Will Eisner — Will Eisner: A Spirited Life — and when I started interviewing people about Will, he handed me his handwritten Rolodex and said, “Call anyone you want.” Hello, Neal Adams. Hello, Stan Lee. And so on. So, when I started hosting and producing the Mr. Media® Interviews podcast [https://MrMedia.com] in 2007, I was always on the lookout for comics-related interviews. One day that July, comics historian Tim Lasiuta reached out and told me about the oral history he wrote, Brush Strokes of Greatness: The Life & Art of Joe Sinnott. I said if “Joltin’” Joe would do an interview, I was in. What you’re about to read is the result of that phone interview. I remember it like it was yesterday because it was so damn cool talking to Joe. The man was there when the Marvel Universe was germinating and he was a delightful conversation partner. — Bob Andelman.] Bob Andelman: Let’s start with a general point of information. What on Earth does a comic book inker actually do, and how do you explain your career to the layman? Joe Sinnott: Well, actually, it’s all I ever did. I drew from the time I was three years old, I can remember, and it’s the only thing I knew. All my brothers could build houses, they could do all that. I couldn’t drive a nail, but I could draw, and I drew all the time. I drew on paper bags, whatever I had. Things were tough growing up in the Thirties, but we made the best of it, and it paid off in the long run, I guess. Bob: What is the difference, for someone who doesn’t know, between someone who does pencils and someone

who does inking? Joe: Well, there’s all types of penciling, Bob. Years ago, most of the artists used to pencil thoroughly and complete pencils, put the blacks in and everything, and it progressed down to the point where a lot of the artists would pencil very loosely like a thumbnail sketch, and the inker, if he was capable, was required to finish the art. So he really was a finisher. Not all artists can do this, but some can, and fortunately, I was able to. Of course, the first 12, 13 years I was with Marvel, I did my own pencils and inks, and that’s the way I used to like it. But that was a different world back then. Bob: When did it change for you? When did you stop focusing on penciling? Joe: Well, I started at Marvel in 1950, with Stan Lee. It was Timely Comics back in those days. And, around 1961, Jack Kirby didn’t do his own inking, and he asked me if I could fill in and [ink] a Jack Kirby. He couldn’t find anyone to ink it, and so I inked it, and Stan liked it quite a bit. He liked the combination. So it progressed from there and Stan just kept sending me more Jack Kirby stuff, and I felt I could make as much inking as I could penciling, so I proceeded to ink primarily for Stan. Of course, I had other accounts, Treasure Chest and Dell and whatever, and there I did my own pencils and inks. Bob: I wondered if you could actually make as much inking as penciling. I would have guessed not, but from what you say, I guess you could. Joe: It seemed like I could, maybe because I was a faster inker than I was a penciler. A lot of times with penciling you had to research and do things like that, which used up a little of your time, but it never seemed to be a problem with me. The inking came very easily.

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Artwork © Joe Sinnott.

Interview conducted by BOB ANDELMAN

Joe Sinnott portrait © Kendall Whitehouse. Evel Knievel TM & © K and K Promotions, Inc.

Bob: How different is one man’s inks from another’s? Again, if we’re describing this for people who really aren’t that familiar with it, some people would just think oh, inking, you’re just taking an ink pen and going over someone’s pencils, but it’s more than that, right? Joe: Don’t I wish! No, I felt down through the years I’ve added a lot to whoever I was working on, and I’m sure a lot of my friends would tell you the same thing. Some inkers, I must say, do, so to speak, ink over the lines that the penciler has put down, and other inkers have to do a lot of what we call finished art. We have to finish the art. Some pencilers don’t put any blacks in whatsoever or details, and the inker has to do that. He’s primarily, like I said, finishing the art. He’s completing it. He’s adding to it. He’s an embellisher. Bob: What do you think is the difference between the art you were inking in the early ’60s, the start of the real Marvel Age, and today? Has it changed? Joe: Oh, a great deal. Of course, being off in the old school, I prefer the old method. I feel things are too technical today and too slick, and they don’t look like a comic book should look. That’s my feeling. Of course, in the old days, everyone did this same type of art. Reproductions were basically the same, but it looked like a comic book. It had the classic look. I prefer the Kirby, the Buscemas, the Colans, the Romitas. It was just great. It was stylized, but it was realistic art, whereas today, it’s hard to say what the new method would be called. We’re influenced a lot by the Japanese today, as you know. Not my preference. Bob: Have the changes had anything to do with improvements in printing technology? You get a finer printing today than obviously you did 40 years ago. Joe: I’m sure there has been a great change in printing obviously. Of course, we have better paper, but then again, here we go, the old comics had that old comic book feel to it. A lot of people that I know, especially people my age, certainly prefer the old classic comic style and reproduction. Bob: I guess one of the things that I think of when I think of your work in the ’60s, is, particularly working with Kirby, was that it was a heavier line, it seemed like a thicker, heavier line in those books than maybe we would see today or maybe even in some other books. Is that a mistake? Joe: I think you’re correct in that regard. I know, looking back, when I worked on Kirby in particular, I used an awful lot of brush, and certainly, with a brush, you’re going to get a heavier line. But Jack’s work, it almost demanded a brush because he had big, bold pencil strokes, and usually four, five panels at the most on a page. And you could really do big drawings, and you could get in there with a brush and let yourself go. It’s not like today when I’m inking the Sunday Spider-Man page for Stan and King Features. I use an awful lot of pen. The drawings are so small, and they’re reproduced so small that you have to use a lot of pen because brush is just too big, and the lines would be too heavy. Bob: You had worked in comics for 10 or 11 years by the time that first issue of Fantastic Four came your way. You had seen the super-heroes go away, Westerns come on, things like that. When the Fantastic Four came to you, what did you think? Did you think it was another monster comic? Was it a big deal at the time or was it just another assignment? Joe: It was no big deal at all. When the Fantastic Four came to me at #5, I had never heard of the book. But as soon as I saw the characters, I said, “Gee, what great characters.” Of course, in those days as you know, through the ’50s and ’60s, we were always looking for a new trend. We had the Korean War, then we had the horror comics, we had romance, we had science fiction, and then we had

the monster books in the late ’50s and early ’60s. And then, when Stan came out with a few super-heroes, we didn’t think anything more of it. We thought, even Spider-Man, we just thought that was another character, that it would soon fade, and we’d be doing something else. Certainly, as you know, it caught on and took off. Bob: I think I need to correct myself on something from something you just said. You actually came on Fantastic Four with the fifth issue not the first issue. Joe: That’s right. The introduction of Doctor Doom. Bob: How did the whole perception of the industry you were working on start to change in the early ’60s as these comics took on a life of their own that they had not had? Joe: It was pretty obvious. Most of the comic houses — we were dropping houses at that time — really concentrated on the superheroes. DC, of course, with their Justice League and Batman and Superman and whatever. They brought them all back. The same with Marvel, only Marvel created more characters. Of course, we did have Captain America and a few like that, but basically, we had all new super-heroes. I think Stan was surprised that they were so popular. Bob: And Stan created kind of a culture personality around everyone who worked on those books, didn’t he? Joe: Yeah, he certainly did. Bob: How was that different than the way the industry had operated a decade earlier? Joe: Well, that’s pretty hard to ascertain, Bob. I really wouldn’t know how to put a finger on it, to tell the truth.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

Above: Portrait of the artist by CBC convention photographer Kendall Whitehouse, taken at the East Coast ComiCon, in May of 2018. Below: In his book, Brush Strokes with Greatness: The Life and Art of Joe Sinnott (designed by Ye Ed in 2007), the artist recalled this mid-’70s ad artwork, “[O]ne of my favorites of that time.”

Bob: Stan nicknamed you “Joltin’” Joe Sinnott, but there was a nickname before that, right? Joe: Yeah. He had called me “Jovial” Joe. Bob: Were you surprised the first time that popped up? Joe: No, not really. I don’t know where he got it from, but Joltin’ Joe, I could understand that because I’m sure he

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Artwork © Joe Sinnott.

This page: Various commission art jobs by Joe Sinnott, including endpaper sketches of Marvel’s “first family” members for a Fantastic Four custom-made bound volume.

was influenced by Joe DiMaggio. And I used to talk a lot about baseball with a friend of mine that worked in the office down there, Jack Abel, a very talented individual. Bob: In the late ’60s and early ’70s, comics developed a cult of personality. It was a changing time. People actually knew your name, they knew what you did, they knew other people. It wasn’t just a matter of buying their favorite comic, they were looking for people’s names, and they were recognizing people, right? Joe: Oh, I think so. I often hear from people that said, “I rooted for you,” so to speak, and “I looked for your work way back in the beginning of the super-hero age, back in the early ’60s, ’61, ’62. I remember many years ago the first fan mail I ever got was back in 1953, I think it was, and this kid from Connecticut wrote me and said how much he loved my character, Arrowhead. He was an Indian renegade. The law was always after him, but he was always helping out those who were in trouble. The book ran for quite a few issues, and I really enjoyed it. This kid wrote to me and said how much he loved Arrowhead. They finally made a movie, and Charlton Heston played a character called Arrowhead, and here again, he was an Indian. It was a fairly successful book for the ’50s, and I kept his letter all these years. The last letter I heard from him, he said he was going off to Korea. This was during the Korean War. Well, I never heard from him again. It was interesting because I thought maybe something happened to him during the war, and I had lost his address. But anyway, about two years ago, I got a letter from this woman from Connecticut, and she said she was this person’s wife that I had known when he was a kid and that he was very sick. He wasn’t expected to live any more. His illness was terminal, so I got together some of the old Arrowhead drawings I had done many years ago, and I sent them off to Roland. Of course, he couldn’t respond to me. He was aware that he got them and everything, and he passed away about a week later. I’m sure I made his last couple days fairly happy because he loved that character. Bob: What a wonderful story. What a great story. Now, I wanted to ask you, you’ve had a business relationship with Stan for 57 years. How different was Stan in 1950 from the man who, this year, is hosting a weekly TV show? Joe: I can’t see one bit of difference. Bob: Is that right? Joe: Oh, yeah. Stan was always the life of the party, so to speak. If Stan was in a room with a thousand people, he would stand out. Great sense of humor. His memory is a little bit off now, but even back in those days, he wasn’t known for him memory. Tremendous sense of humor. I wish I could tell you some of the stories because whenever I

Thunder Bunny TM & © the estate of Martin Greim. Silver Surfer, Invisible Woman, Thor TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

vouch for my work, Stan sends me a little note back. I’ve kept them all. I have hundreds and hundreds of Stan’s notes and letters. Someday, they’ll make a good book, I think. Really, you can’t believe the sense of humor he had. Always with a smile. If you ever see a picture of Stan, it’s with a great big smile. Well, he could be tough too, though. He knew what he wanted, and he expected it. He certainly helped me in many, many ways. Right from the start, I remember when I was just a kid out of school, he said, “Joe, whatever you do, exaggerate everything.” He said, “I want everything exaggerated.” That’s what we lived by. Bob: What about Kirby? Obviously, you got pages from him. And I know that while Stan developed this idea of the Marvel bullpen, there were some guys working on staff, but mostly guys worked from home so you didn’t see each other that often. Joe: No. Most of the guys who did the books worked at home. The staff, of course, involved so many people. Proofreaders, people who did corrections, things like that. Well, Romita, of course, worked there at the office, and there were a few others. Kirby, I worked with Jack, oh gee, must be 18 years, something like that, and I had never met him. Never talked to him on the phone, would you believe that? And so Marvel had a convention in ’72, and I went down and I was introduced to Jack Kirby by Marie Severn. And I didn’t see him again, I didn’t talk to him again until 1975. They had another convention, and I went down and we got together. We had a great three days together. After that, I never spoke to him again. Would you believe that? Of course, Jack moved to California, and he dropped me a note once in a while if he wanted something. For example, if he wanted his characters inked, and he’d ask me that way if I could help him out, and of course, I always did. We never talked about the Fantastic Four. He never told me he liked the way I did this or didn’t like the way I was doing that. We just never talked about what we were working on, which is amazing, I think. Bob: Well, to use the Marvel term, it’s astonishing, really. You guys only met twice in all those years, and yet, your work is so closely tied from that era. Joe: Never discussed the work. Never. Bob: I’m baffled. Really. Joe: Of course, Jack and Stan used to write notes on the pages for each other. If Stan wanted something changed, or Jack didn’t like a certain way a story was being told or whatever, but when Jack sent the work to me, there was never, ever a note on the border saying Joe, would you do it this way or would you do it that way. And, of course, my son knows all the pages we did together. It astonishes me, Bob, sometimes also. Bob: Do you have any guys that you were particularly close to from that era, from Marvel? Joe: No, no. Actually, it was pretty much the same as Kirby. They sent me the work, and they knew I was gonna do a complete, acceptable job when I returned it. Bob: And where were you living at the time? Joe: I’ve lived in Saugerties [in New York’s Hudson Valley region] all my life. Bob: Really?

Joe: Yeah. I was born here in 1926, and I went to the Cartoonists and Illustrators School, in New York City, for about three years, I guess it was. So I lived down on 74th Street and Broadway. Then I moved back up to Saugerties here when I got a firm account with Stan. Bob: And that school you went to later became the School of Visual Arts. Joe: That’s right. Burne Hogarth was one of the directors there. Bob: I think I saw that Silas Rhodes just passed away. Joe: Oh yeah. Well, I’d say it’s been about two or three years ago now. Bob: Really? Joe: Oh, wait a minute. I thought you meant Burne Hogarth. Bob: No, no, no. Silas. I think I just saw… Joe: I didn’t know that he passed away. Bob: I think he was like 92 or something. Joe: He was. What a dynamic…They both were. Unbelievable. Both characters were dynamic personalities. Of course, Silas had been in the Marine Corps during World War II, and I would hate to have been under him, I’m telling ya. He was a, what do they call, not slave driver, but there’s another word. Bob: Do you have a good story about him? Joe: Well, we used to call him “Rocky” when we were in school. He’d come around everyday, certainly. I’m telling

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2016 • #13

This page: More Joe Sinnott art commissions, though the inclusion (above) of late comics super-fan Martin Greim’s Thunder Bunny along with The Silver Surfer (a character Joe inked during its 1960s run) is pretty unusual!

This page: As an inker, Joe Sinnott will likely be bestremembered as one of the very finest to have embellished the pencils of Jack “King” Kirby, and Joltin’ Joe took special relish in drawing Kirby’s The Thing when the occasion arose. Above is an animated close-up and, at right, a nod to creator and character. Below is a treasured snapshot of Jack and Joe, taken at a 1970s comic convention.

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Thing TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Art © Joe Sinnott.

ya, he was a dynamo. He was a strong person, and you could just see him in the Marine Corps. A lot of stories, little stories that he would tell. I remember one time he told me, he said, “Joe, you’re putting on weight. It’s not good. It’s very unhealthy.” I’m sure he was a health nut because he looked like he could take on a weightlifter. And like you just said, he lived to be 93, right? Bob: Yeah. Yeah. Joe: It’s funny to think that as many times as I talked to him, that’s one thing I remember him saying to me: “Joe, you’re putting on a little weight.” I wasn’t aware that I was, but obviously, he could see it. Another time when I was down at the school to apply for entrance, I had my little pencil and ink scratchings. I was very apprehensive about it because I thought they weren’t good enough to get into school. So I went to see Silas Rhodes. He called me in, and he looked at my work, and he said, “Joe, this is really good stuff for a beginner. I gotta show these to Burne Hogarth.” And I was saying to myself he’s just saying that because they’re having trouble getting people into the school, and they want to make sure I come to the school. So he went in and showed the samples to Burne, and of course, Burne came out and told me, “Joe, these are pretty good for a guy at your stage.” I wanted to

be an illustrator so I wanted to take the illustrating course. And Burne says, “No, Joe, you’re a natural-born cartoonist. I’ll tell ya, it’s not easy, it’s very hard, very hard work. But your work will lend itself perfectly to a comic strip or comic book cartoonist.” So that was the first day I was down at the school. Certainly, both of them impressed me so much at the time. Bob: For people who don’t know Burne Hogarth, do you want to explain? Joe: Yeah. He was the illustrator for the newspaper strip Tarzan [from 1937–45, 1947–50]. It appeared in the New York Mirror back in those days. Of course, he was a great draftsman, and we used to love to have him come in and draw on the easel for us. He could draw anything you wanted. A sabretooth tiger or whatever. He was just a dynamic person and a great artist. He really was. Bob: For a lot of cartoonists, especially in the action genre/adventure, he’s the gold standard, isn’t he? Joe: Exactly. Certainly one of them. Bob: So when you come in there out of the blue, and Burne Hogarth tells you you’ve got what it takes, that must have been a pretty exciting day. Joe: Yes, it was. Of course, I had come out of the Navy, and I didn’t go to school right away. When I came out, I was playing ball and having a good time, whatever. So then it came time, and I said, “I gotta go to art school.” And so, when I went down there, we were doing some drawings in ink, and I was using a pen, and he came by me, and he knocked the pen out of my hand. He said, “Joe, in this school, we use a brush.” He was a great brush man. Here I was, about 21 years old. I wasn’t even aware that cartoonists used brushes. That’s how naïve I was. In those days, there were no conventions. You had no chance of ever meeting, especially up here in the mountains of the Catskills, I never met a cartoonist and never had the thought that I ever would whereas today, the kids, they see cartoonists all the time at these conventions. They know everything about the field even before they try to break into it. They know what supplies to use and what brushes and what pens and whatever. All I used was a post office pen that they used in the post office. The ones you dip in the inkwell. Bob: Right. I did this biography of Will Eisner, and I remember he told me about taking his portfolio up to see Ham Fisher. He did Joe Palooka. And James Montgomery Flagg was there who did the famous Uncle Sam posters. And the big deal for him was he was just so overwhelmed, he didn’t know what to say to the man so he says, “What kind of pen do you use?” And Flagg said, “I use a 290 Gillette.” And so Eisner went out and bought nothing but 290 Gillette pens and used them for the rest of his life. Joe: Isn’t that amazing? Of course, the school used to get a lot of calls from people in the business or whatever. And they got a call from either NBC or ABC, one of the TV stations. There were only three at the time. And they wanted someone to come over on, I forget whose program, but Ham Fisher was the guest over there. And they wanted an art student to come over and talk with Ham Fisher about comic strips. So they used to send me on a lot of these errands, and so they called me up from the class, and they said, “Joe, Ham Fisher wants you to come over and ask you a few questions about school, things like that.” And I said, “Oh, I’m afraid not.” I thought I was too shy to go on TV. So I passed it up. They chose another friend of mine from the school, and he went over, and he came back, and he said, “You know what? Ham Fisher was showing the people on the easel how to draw Joe Palooka, and it was already drawn. It was in blue pencil, and you couldn’t see it, but he was tracing it.” Hey, those guys weren’t taking any chances, either. Another time, Ted Mack… I don’t know whether

The Thing TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Art © Joe Sinnott.

you remember Ted Mack. Bob: “The Original Amateur Hour.” Joe: Yeah. He’s before your time. But anyway, they called me over. Well, the Amateur Hour used to be Major Bowes’ Amateur Hour. They could have still called it that. But, in any case, I was sent over there. So I did go over there and was up in the booth with him, and we were watching, I can still remember the Old Gold, the mother and the daughter. They were inside a cigarette pack and they were both dancing on the stage. Do you remember that commercial? Bob: I remember dancing cigarette packs. Joe: Well, that was Old Gold. So anyway, we watched that, and Ted’s agent was there, and he wanted me to do a caricature of Ted for Variety magazine. And I’ll tell ya, boy, I was nervous. And he said, “Make Ted look like a nice guy because he’s really nice.” And actually, he was a really nice guy, but he looked like somebody from Guys and Dolls. How do you do a caricature of someone who looks like a gangster? I’ll tell ya, I was scared to death, and I kept drawing away. And Ted Mack said to me, “Joe, don’t be nervous. I’d like you to come with me over to one of the big nightclubs.” I just couldn’t do it. I said, “Ted, I really can’t.” I made up some excuse. I was just too scared. I really was scared. I was just a kid then. It would’ve been interesting. Looking back, I should’ve gone to see whom he would’ve met over there and whatever. Bob: Well, to borrow the title of your biography, you had another brush with greatness, although I don’t know if you actually had contact with them. I suspect you didn’t. You did a comic based on The Beatles in 1964, right? Joe: Yeah. 1964. They were on their way over to be on Ed Sullivan’s show, and Dell called me. They knew I did good likenesses, and they wanted someone who could do likenesses. So they asked me to do The Beatles book, which was 64 pages long. And I had a month to do it in. That was a lot of work in a short period of time. It came out really good, all things considered. They were very happy with it. Of course, I never did get to meet The Beatles. But the book is fairly unique, and it’s fairly rare, I guess. Bob: And that was a project that you did the drawing for. You drew The Beatles for that. That wasn’t an inking job like you were known for much later. You drew The Beatles pages. Joe: Oh sure. Oh yeah, yeah. The book. A good friend of mine, Dick Giordano, he helped me out on a few pages toward the end. I was running out of time. Of course, Dick and I used to work many years ago together. I would pencil books for General Electric or Radio Shack, and he would ink them. Of course, that was an interesting period. Bob: Now, I want to ask you about one more thing cause we’re running out of time. This is the summer, of course, that the Silver Surfer actually comes to life [Fantastic 4: Rise of the Silver Surfer, 2007]. I wondered if you have seen either of the Fantastic Four movies, and if you have, what you thought. Joe: Don’t embarrass me. No, I haven’t seen them. Bob: Really? Joe: My family, my son, he’s a big comic fan, and he knows all about the comics. He took his two children to see it. Of course, they wanted me to go with them, but it was the first night, and I really didn’t want to go the first night because they get a lot of young people the first night. They pack the theaters, no question. I did see Spider-Man 3 the first night, and it was hectic. The kids, they were quiet and everything, but there were just so many of them. I had to wait in line and all that. So anyway, I didn’t see it, but my son Mark, he’s quite a critic. He loved it. There were a few little things, naturally, he disagreed with, but he thought the Surfer was tremendous. Bob: Yeah. It was great. I thought they did a great job with the Surfer. My daughter, who’s the upcoming comic fan in our house, she loved it. She just absolutely loved it. Joe: John Buscema and I did the first three [issues of]

Surfers. Of course, he continued with his brother for a while. I think they did maybe 17, 18 issues altogether. But I thought what a great character the Surfer was. Of course, John did a beautiful Surfer. Bob: I think you have to go see the movie, not just to see what they did with the Silver Surfer, but I think you’ll get a kick out of Stan’s cameo in this particular movie. Joe: That’s what Mark said. The first couple that he was in, you could barely see him. Don’t blink, otherwise you’ll miss him. But I understand he had a little more… Bob: Yeah, you can’t miss him in this one. It’s a very funny moment, especially for someone who’s known him as long as you have. Joe: He’s something, I’ll tell ya. He just called me about two days ago. And I was away from the Spider-Man Sunday comic strip for a while because my wife had passed away, and I was quite sick for a while. I was in the hospital three times. Bob: I’m sorry. Joe: Yeah, over the last five months, so I had to hand over the Spider-Man to him, a friend of mine. And he very graciously took care of it while I was laid up. So I went back about, oh maybe a month ago, so Stan had to call me and tell me how great it was to be back working with me.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

This page: More Thing-related art by Joltin’ Joe. Anyone who knows Joe knows that the man, besides his “thing” for Bing Crosby, sure does love baseball. Joe can boast that three of his sports cartoons were displayed at the Baseball Hall of Fame, in Cooperstown, New York! Plus he was elected to the Saugerties Sports Hall of Fame in 1989!

A Gathering of Weirdos Ye Ed brings together a historic convocation of alternative/underground cartoonists

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Except as noted, all photos © Kendall Whitehouse.

Photo by J.J. Sedelmaier

Your fearless editor and his hapless wife, Beth (who has remained tethered to this nut for 32 or so years now!), journeyed down to Secaucus, New Jersey, to sell Book of Weirdo wares at Cliff Galbraith’s fabulous East Coast ComiCon, in May (with help from CBC proofreader Rob Smentek!). Ye Ed also moderated a Weirdo panel with convention guests who contributed to R. Crumb’s legendary humor comics anthology. Here, courtesy of the extraordinary photographic talents of CBC convention shutterbug Kendall Whitehouse, is evidence of that great event. Top photo: Left to right is (top row) Danny Hellman, David Carrino, Kim Deitch, Kaz, John Holmstrom, Paul Karasik, Stephen Blickenstaff; (bottom row) Carol Tyler, Peter Bagge, Drew Friedman, Jon B. Cooke, Mark Newgarden, Glenn Head, and Elizabeth Fiend (a.k.a. Luna Ticks). Middle photo: Left to right is Carol Tyler, Peter Bagge, Drew Friedman, Jon B. Cooke, Mark Newgarden, Glenn Head, Kim Deitch, and Kaz. Above photos: Left to right are Peter Bagge, Drew Friedman, Mark Newgarden, and Carol Tyler (who became a convention chum of Beth Cooke, seen at left with hubby).

Jon B. Cooke Kaz John Holmstrom

Mark Newgarden

Glenn Head

Kim Deitch

Paul Karasik

Allen Fiend David Carrino

Elizabeth Fiend Stephen Blickenstaff

Photography by Kendall Whitehouse Next page: At left are pics of The Book of Weirdo contributors with their copies, pix that were compiled for a banner being displayed during Ye Ed’s current TBOW book tour. At right are pix (by Andrew D. Cooke, Beth Cooke, and friends) of Ye Ed posing with Weirdos during TBOW tour appearances. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

Stephen Blickenstaff

Paul Karasik

Mark Newgarden

Peter Bagge

Kim Deitch

Kaz

Glenn Head

Elizabeth Fiend

Carol Tyler

Art Spiegelman

Drew Friedman 26

John Holmstrom

Phoebe Gloeckner

Rick Altergott

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

darrick patrick’s ten questions

Sakai's Ronin Rabbit

Our Man Patrick poses ten questions for Stan Sakai, the creator of Usagi Yojimbo by DARRICK PATRICK Stan Sakai is a professional artist/writer who is best known as the creator of the comic series Usagi Yojimbo. Along with his lettering credits, his work can also be found in The Adventures of Nilson Groundthumper and Hermy, 47 Ronin, Groo the Wanderer, Space Usagi, Riblet, Bart Simpson's Treehouse of Horror, Critters, Spider-Man Sunday newspaper strip, etc. Darrick Patrick: What was the journey that led you to a career as an author/illustrator? Stan Sakai: I always enjoyed drawing and telling stories as far back as I remember, so it was no surprise that I became an art major. They did not teach sequential art back then as they do now though. The closest I could get was a fine arts degree in drawing and painting. That did not teach me storytelling, but I did learn anatomy and color theory, which helps me today. Darrick: Who are some of the people that greatly influenced you while growing up? Stan: My parents, of course, though they did think I spent too much time with comic books. I think the validation came when I did a book signing at a comic store in Hawaii, where I grew up. My dad came to see what it was about, but the store was so crowded he could not get in. My wife, Sharon, was a great support. Without her, I would not have even attempted doing freelance artwork. There were a group of us wannabe comic book artists starting out and we would make our own comics and pass them around to enjoy and critique. The late Dave Thorne was a mentor to so many Hawaiian cartoonists. He was the first of us to make the journey to the San Diego Comic-Con. This was almost 40 years ago. He came back with stories of hanging out with Jack Kirby and Sergio Aragonés, riding to L.A. with the Kuberts in their RV, being invited to the Disney Studios, etc. Eventually, all of us make the trek to Comic-Con. I have been attending now for 36 years. Darrick: Do you have any words of advice for other individuals looking to make a career

with their artistic abilities? Stan: Assuming that you already have the ability, the best advice I can give is to network. Get to know your peers and people in the industry. It is easier now than ever before with the internet and comic conventions. Show your work to others. People like you starting out, established artists, writers, editors, and publishers. People like to work with guys they know or whose work they have seen.

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Usagi Yojimbo is TM & © Stan Sakai. Stan Sakai portrait by Emi Fujii.

Darrick: How do you spend your time on a typical workday? Stan: I live in the Los Angeles area. I get up early, and usually go hiking in the mountains about a 15-minute drive away. I do some shopping, then work about eight or nine hours with the TV on. Darrick: For new readers who may not be familiar with your work, what are some projects of yours that you would recommend to begin with? Stan: Usagi is pretty reader-friendly, so you can pick up any of the 30 or so collected books and get caught up fairly quickly. There isn't much back-story you need to know aside from, “Usagi is

Usagi Yojimbo is TM & © Stan Sakai. All artwork © R. Crumb. Weirdo TM & © R. Crumb.

an unemployed samurai warrior traveling through an anthropomorphic 17th century Japan.” Much of my stories revolve around aspects of Japanese culture, folklore, and history, so I do a lot of research. I received a number of awards, including six Eisners and two Harveys. Darrick: Who are a few of the people in the comics industry that you hold a high deal of respect for? Stan: I have the utmost respect for Sergio Aragonés, who also is a good friend. I adapted a lot of his working methods as my own. I am blessed in that I have been able to meet my heroes. I worked with Stan Lee for about 25 years, lettering the Spider-Man Sunday strips, I was acquainted with Jack Kirby, know Neal Adams, Scott Shaw, Jeff Smith, Geof Darrow, Frank Miller, and so many others. Darrick: Outside of creating artwork and writing stories, what are your other interests? Stan: I enjoy traveling, and am fortunate that I get invited to conventions and festivals around the world. I went to Japan as a guest of Tezuka Productions in 1999, and was

A perfect companion to The Book of Weirdo, the acclaimed Last Gasp book on Robert Crumb’s legendary humor comics anthology: a super-cool set of 40 cards in a nifty gift box depicting all of Crumb’s unforgettable Weirdo cover art (both published and unpublished) with back-side bios, images, and Freaky Factoids featuring the legion of other underground and outlaw cartoonists who contributed to Weirdo, including Drew Friedman, Justin Green, Kim

invited to visit Studio Ghibli in 2009. I went to the Angoulême Festival a number of times, and am invited to the Lucca Comics and Games Festival in Italy this year. Darrick: What is your oldest memory? Stan: I lived in Japan for the first few years of my life and remember a chestnut tree in the backyard. Darrick: Tell us something about you that most people don't know. Stan: I used to be a cooking school/ catering assistant to Dr. Thomas Noguchi, who was the Los Angeles head coroner at that time. He was also a gourmet chef. I remember we returned some sashimi because it was half-aday too old. How could the market argue with the coroner? Darrick: If you had a working time machine, what are some of the points in history that you would visit? Stan: I have always had an interest in Japanese history, so I would like to be a fly on the wall in Japan 1601–1605. This is the end of the “Age of Warring States” and the establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

Deitch, Aline Kominsky-Crumb, Carol Tyler, Pete Bagge, Kaz, Dori Seda, Jim Woodring, S. Clay Wilson, Mary Fleener, Bob Armstrong, Spain, Elinore Norflus, Dennis Worden, and more! The Weirdo Card Set is also a nifty complement to R. Crumb’s other boxed card sets: Heroes of the Blues, Early Jazz Greats, and Pioneers of Country Music, all of which should be available at your favorite comics retailer or music shop. But

Previous page: Various images featuring Usagi Yojimbo, Stan Sakai's anthropomorphic warrior character (whose name, translated from Japanese, means "rabbit bodyguard). At bottom left is a portrait of the creator, shot by Emi Fujii. This page: Inset is the cover of Usagi Yojimbo #1 [July 1987], published by Fantagraphics.

if you can’t find the Weirdo Card Set or Crumb’s three music sets locally, simply go to amazon.com or (preferably) deniskitchen.com (which also offers other vintage Crumb comix and products). This set was conceived, designed, and written by Comic Book Creator and The Book of Weirdo’s Jon B. Cooke.

DENIS KITCHEN PUBLISHING Co., LLC Box 2250, Amherst MA 01004-2250

secret origin of free comic book day

The Idea That Saved Comics Comic shop retailer Joe Field blames the whole idea for FCBD on Baskin-Robbins! Inset right: In mid-2001, comic shop owner Joe Field came up with an idea that significantly impacted the direct market. In an article for the trade publication Comics & Games Retailer, the retailer wrote, under the headline, “The Power of Free,” about shop owners offering gratis comics one day a year to entice new and lapsed readers into the fold. Here’s Joe sharing his enthusiasm at his Flying Colors comic shop during a FCBD a few years ago. Below: The first page of the retailer’s article also included a positive response from Diamond Comic Distributors, which offered to solicit feedback from their extensive list of accounts. (Cover repro is representative.)

by JON B. COOKE [Maybe our headline is a bit overstated, but those who recall the perpetual boom and bust cycles of comics in the past, with periods of wild speculation and media frenzy inevitably followed by the closing of hundreds of shops due to low sales, know the precarious modern history of the American comic book industry. But since the advent of Free Comic Book Day some 18 years ago, overall the field has had steady, pragmatic, and widening growth, and the effort FCBD provides to retailers — to welcome new readers young and old to the form with the enticement of free comics — certainly is one reason. Yours truly interviewed the idea’s originator, Joe Field of Flying Colors Comics and Other Cool Stuff, a few years back (a talk that appeared in my short-lived ACE: All Comics Evaluated mag in early 2015). This was transcribed by “Flash” Thompson. — Y.E.]

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Comics Retailer TM & © the respective copyright holder.

Comic Book Creator: Joe, can you tell us the story behind Free Comic Book Day? Joe Field: One day [in 2001] I saw a line in front of the Baskin-Robbins next door to my comic book store and, realizing that comics are a whole lot cooler than ice cream, I got to thinking we could do the same thing with comics. Instead of a free scoop, we could give free comics. I took that idea and wrote a column about it for an industry trade publication and, to my complete surprise, everyone loved the idea and wanted to make it happen. It was published in Comics and Games Retailer, which was published by Krause Publications [also publisher of The Comics Buyer’s Guide]. It was an industry trade magazine, so it wasn’t on the stands. CBC: How did you hear the response? Joe: Well, knowing that I’d written columns for a number of years, response was always a very delayed — I’d write a column one month, it would be published the next month, and there would be another few months before we’d get any response — so I thought this idea was probably a little bit too good to wait that long to try to make things happen. So I got permission from the editor at that time to get response before the article saw print, and print them alongside in the same issue, and that response was very instantaneous and positive. CBC: What was the appeal of the

idea and what was the reason for it? Joe: We had just come through some difficult years in the ’90s and things were really turning around. All of a sudden a lot more creative things were being done in comics and the general feeling was that things were going really good except we had no mechanism to invite new people in to see what was going on. So this was seen as a way to just give an invitation to everyone to visit their local comic shops. CBC: Did you outlay a specific plan for dealing with outside media and what it became? Joe: I laid out some parameters for what I wanted to see, not so much in terms of the outreach (although that was a part of it), but a lot of what I originally intended came through. It just worked on a lot of different levels that way. CBC: So what was the plan? Joe: The idea was essentially best foot forward and every which way we could do that. Initially there were only a few publishers involved — Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, Image, and Oni, I think, were the original ones — and it was basically “best foot forward.” Give us something we can give away that is a complete reading experience and that will make people want to come back and read more. That’s really how it’s worked. It’s not a matter of giving away samplers where, you know, you’ve got the first five pages of the story and you have to jump over to something else to read the rest of it. It’s been about giving a full scoop of cool stuff. CBC: I don’t know if the public is aware of what the process is. Can you explain it? It’s not per se that the publisher’s giving free comics to the retailers, right? Joe: Correct. What happens is that there’s a process for this now every year since we’re going into the 14th year. Publishers apply to be FCBD suppliers. They fill out an application that tells us what their comic is going to be, how much it’s going to cost, the creative content, what they’re gonna do to promote it — not only to the comics world, but to the outside world — and then all of those submissions are sent to a committee of retailers which I spearhead. We then go through all of these applications and make decisions on which ones are accepted into FCBD. There is a maximum of 50 comics chosen for FCBD. That breaks down to 12 for what we call “Gold Level,” and those are the ones that every participating store will have available. Then the “Silver Level,” titles that are sort of smörgåsbord types. Stores can pick and choose what they bring in for the day. CBC: Why would some titles not make the cut? Joe: That’s not information that I can really give out. What I would say is that this year there were 69 titles that were in the application process, and those needed to be whittled down to 50. And some of the criteria for what gets in and what doesn’t is marketability — what the track record of the title is, for instance, and the track record of the publisher. Is it something that has an audience? Can it be a whole lot wider than it currently is? Does it reach a different

market than the other titles? And then, past that, what kinds of promotion does the publisher plan to do to help promote FCBD, in general, and their title, specifically? So there are hard choices to make each time we do this and I think we’ve done pretty well so far. CBC: Some titles have actually debuted on FCBD over the years, including Umbrella Factory, Atomic Robo, The Sixth Gun, correct? Joe: Right, there have been a number of series that have launched on FCBD over the years from publishers of all sizes. What’s difficult about launching the series on FCBD is… We had started to see publishers wanting to make their debut on that day and it’s really not the best place for that because it’s completely unknown to retailers who are ordering the books and to fans and whatnot. It really helps to have a little bit of wind in the sails of a book behind it before doing the FCBD release. Now, there are still some series launches and those are from publishers who are more established and have a track record of being able to promote their books well. So we are definitely not saying that you can’t debut a new series on FCBD, but it is one where we’re being a little bit choosier about how that process works. CBC: And the process is that the publisher sells to Diamond and then purchased by the storeowners? Joe: Yes. All of this gets funneled through Diamond. All the books are solicited through them, once the titles are approved by the retailer committee, and then retailers make their choices as to how many that they want to buy of each of them. And the retailers do pay for them. The prices on those vary from as little as 5¢ or 10¢ a copy up to over 50¢ each. What we’ve found is the more expensive a title, the less pick-up it’ll get in terms of orders. There is kind of a sweet spot in there of comics that are available to retailers at 20¢ to 30¢ apiece and those are the ones that seem to get the best orders. CBC: It’s remarkable to see the number of kids’ titles that are available and I’ve certainly been witness to any number of families coming into comic book shops. It’s a rather joyful thing to see. Is there any evidence that first-time people come in and they actually return? Joe: Oh, yes! Every year, in our store, we keep track of where people are coming from, whether it’s their first time in the shop, that sort of thing. In Year 13, still more than 20% of the people who came to out event had never been in before. So this is definitely outreach as there are people coming in to the stores for this event. I’m sure that holds true for other comic shops as well. And the idea is essen-

tially most of the Gold Level books are going to be all-ages friendly. I wouldn’t say they’re kids books, but they’re all-ages friendly — comics that are going to be accessible to as wide an audience as possible. Then there are books of varying content in terms of age and subject matter that are in the Silver Level. But I do think that FCBD has been part of this renaissance in comics that are all-ages appropriate. (Some people just refer to them as kids’ comics and I guess that’s okay, but that really does a disservice to pigeonhole them that way. Books like Tiny Titans or the Archaia hardcovers including Mouse Guard and Cowboy and some of the things that were in that. They really appeal to people of all ages even though they are kid-friendly.) CBC: Now that we’re going into two decades with FCBD, are we seeing a generational shift? They might have been children to start but are regular comic readers now? Joe: Oh, sure! A lot has changed since the first FCBD. I don’t ever put FCBD on a pedestal and say the art form survives because of FCBD, but I do think that it is an essentially healthy part of a good, strong, and growing comics market. There have been so many things that have changed in the last number of years. Growing numbers of female comics readers, of kids readers… a growing number of readers, period, and people are willing to just recognize that reading is reading — whether it’s comics or books. That’s something that I think a lot of educators are paying more attention to. When students of any age are interested in reading, through comics or whatever means, they’re going to be happy readers for a long time. Comics are a really strong ingredient with that.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

Top: FCBD logo, which is emblazoned on all the free offerings of that first Saturday each May. Above: An early Marvel FCBD edition was Ultimate Spider-Man #1, offered for the 2002 event. Inset left: Sergio Aragonés, the great MAD magazine cartoonist, created this awesome and amusing tableau for the 2010 FCBD commemorative T-shirt, the first of its kind. Below: Along with his friendship and business dealings with Stan “The Man” Lee, father of the graphic novel Will Eisner was a supremely important professional relationship for Joe Field, who said, “In 2004, [Eisner] came to our retailer programming and he sat in the audience for one of the panels. When there was a small break, he turned around and said, ‘Joe, I gotta tell you, Free Comic Book Day is a really great idea!’ And to get validation from Will Eisner was one of the pinnacles of my career!”

Above: In a rare comic book shop appearance, Stan Lee visited Joe Field’s Flying Colors Comics and Other Stuff in the summer of 2013, to help celebrate their 25 th anniversary. By the way, little known fact: Joe actually worked for Stan and Joan Lee as publicist for Joan’s steamy novel, The Pleasure Palace, published by Dell Paperbacks, in 1987!

Below: The 2016 Free Comic Book Day poster was drawn by an artist perhaps better known for his Archie Comics horror work, Francesco Francavilla. This image was also used as a commemorative T-shirt.

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Poster art TM & © FCBD.

You can look at the onslaught of Hollywood movies that have opened on FCBD weekend. I only half-jokingly say it’s great that Hollywood has recognized the value of FCBD by opening a movie that same weekend every year. That’s half-joking because there were a couple of years where there wasn’t a movie that weekend but, sure enough, now there is, and it looks like there will be for the next 10 or 15 years, based upon schedules that I’ve seen. So it is a weekend that really celebrates comics, the characters that come from comics, and all the good things that spin-out of comics, including movies, TV shows, cosplay, fan art, and all of that. FCBD has been a positive part for all of that. CBC: How was the first Saturday of May picked? Joe: Jim Valentino was the publisher of Image at the time and we met to discuss whether there would be a FCBD. And then, after it was almost immediately agreed that there needed to be a FCBD, the question was when. Jim, as publisher of Image, recognized the power of coupling FCBD with the release of the first Spider-Man movie in 2002, and so it was decided to put the event on that day. I think that was a really awesome thing to have happen, because it was showing that the publishers could work together for a really good, common purpose. Looking at the numbers over the last dozen years or so, this is the healthiest run the comics business has ever had. It may not be as large as it once was, but it’s definitely the healthiest long stretch in its history. I think FCBD plays a part in that. What Jim Valentino did was recognize the brand consciousness and knowing that a strong day would be one to tie-in with a major super-hero movie release. That’s a good thing. CBC: Who has the responsibility for outreach? Are retailers instructed to get in touch with local media? Joe: Diamond does a lot of the coordinating for this and they’ll put together press releases that retailers can customize and send to local media. Comics Pro, the retailer trade association that I’m a part of, we also generate press releases for our members and send those

out to media contacts. Then the publishers’ public relations departments will do some outreach, as well. Every year, I’m really happy with the amount of press coverage that FCBD gets. Last year, FCBD was in over 2,100 stores in 66 countries with a little more than a million people attending FCBD events. So it is the world’s largest comic book-related event. CBC: It’s also interesting that it’s an event that’s in midspring and convention season follows. Comic cons have become a phenomenon in American culture. Joe: I think the convention business has changed a lot. I’m one of those people who believes there’s a huge difference between one-day comic swap meets in a hotel ballroom that seem to happen every weekend in a hundred different places, and then conventions, which are actually a convening of the entire industry, which includes publishers and creators and fans and retailers. There still really aren’t that many true conventions. Although that’s a growing part of the business, it’s mostly comics shows and, to a certain extent, Hollywood autograph sales events. CBC: I’m basically a comics reader. I’ve never really been involved in the industry per se, but have certainly observed it. From my standpoint, FCBD is a phenomenal marketing move that you guys made and it’s changed the face of the industry. Joe: Thank you. CBC: You’re welcome. Do you have examples of professionals reacting to FCBD? Joe: Well, I’ll give you two anecdotes and the first happened a number of years ago. Will Eisner passed away in 2005, but he would always come to the San Diego con and specifically come to the retailer events that we would put on through Comics Pro. In 2004, he came to our retailer programming and he sat in the audience for one of the panels. When there was a small break, he turned around and said, “Joe, I gotta tell you, Free Comic Book Day is a really great idea!” And to get validation from Will Eisner was one of the pinnacles of my career! [laughs] For somebody who had been involved in the field since the 1930s, and seen so many of the ups and so many of the downs, to recognize the power of a good idea, even so late in his career. At that point, he was 87 years old! That sticks with me. The other one happened more recently. A few months ago, I went to my 40th-year high school reunion, and mind you, back in high school when I was a comics fan, I had to hide the fact that I liked comics. I would hide my comics in Pee Chee folders, notebooks, and that sort of thing, and we would never trade on campus, you know? It would always be an under the cloak of darkness kind of thing! [laughter] Forty years later I am approached by a former classmate who said that she has done work recently with some librarians. When that librarian found out that this woman knew the founder of Free Comic Book Day, she said, “Well, I have a message that I want you to give him.” She told me the story. She had said, “Tell him that FCBD has saved lives.” I was stunned. That was definitely a new one for me. I hadn’t heard anything like that. So I had her explain. She said that apparently where this librarian is in an inner-city, difficult spot. The kids have a couple of choices. They can get educated, get excited about reading, and want to learn. Or they can wind up in the gangs on the street. Apparently, she was able to quantify that kids from a certain family where the older siblings had not survived past the age of 17, decided to take another turn and get educated, and they did that by starting to go to FCBD and getting excited about reading. So… “Free Comic Book Day saves lives!” [laughter] There’s my slogan for the year. CBC: I know personally that Will Eisner was very pragmatic about business ideas. He was a tough sell, very much a realist, so congrats to you! He had a solid grasp of the marketplace. Joe: When I got into the business, it was the late ’80s, and I was one of the guys who originally ran Wondercon. Will

Valentino’s Date with Destiny [In 2001, in a summit meeting of comics publishers at Comic-Con International: San Diego, Joe Field presented his concept of Free Comic Book Day, and then-Image publisher Jim Valentino had a lasting and important suggestion. CBC chatted with the creator about it via email… — Y.E.]

Spider-Man TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Comic Book Creator: How did you hear about Free Comic Book Day, and what was your reaction? Jim Valentino: I believe I heard about it from Diamond. They wanted to get the support of their premiere publishers (DC, Marvel, Dark Horse, and Image), so they requested a meeting in San Diego, at Comic-Con, as I recall. They used the then-current “milk-moustache” advertisements the dairy industry was using as an example of an industry banding together to raise product awareness. Personally, I thought it was a great idea. CBC: Do you recall the thinking behind suggesting FCBD be held on the Saturday following the release of the Spider-Man movie? Jim: What happened was we were sitting in this room away from the main convention floor. Around the table were several folks from Diamond: Bob Wayne representing DC, Mike Martens representing Dark Horse, myself for Image, and Joe Quesada of Marvel came in late and sat down next to me. Joe Field explained the idea to us and we all agreed to participate, but then came the question of when do we do this. It seemed to me that no one wanted to suggest the obvious — so I did. I said that there was a pretty big movie

was a guest a few times, so I got to know him a little bit, to the point that he would know who I was and know my name (which is one of those things that still blows my mind a bit as a fan at hear!). But yes, for him to say that and give that kind of validation… CBC: Can you tell me what the biggest concern of retailers is right now? Joe: That’s a difficult question. I’ll give you a couple. One is that everyone else in the comics business is looking at many other different avenues for moving sales — whether that is online with Amazon, or whether that’s digital with all the digital comics distributors. There are so many different ways that the publisher can sell now, and the concern is that sometimes their eyes wander from their first true love. That really, retailers are the ones who are the cornerstone of their business. I think that’s something of a concern. Other concerns would be how our costs are going up on pretty much everything, and what kind of a squeeze that puts on retailers. Another one would be concerns about how we support the huge number of titles that are being made available to us. Back when I started, there were maybe 200 titles that would come out a month. There were a number of titles that we would call bestsellers — things that would sell 100,000–3000,000 copies a month. Now we have 600 titles that come out per month and it’s rare for any of them to hit 100,000 in sales. So what we’re looking at is a market that’s much wider and more diverse — and that’s awesome — but we’re also looking at one that’s a little bit more difficult to navigate because there are so many different things out there. Instead of dealing with the handful of publishers that I had to concern myself with in the late ’80s, there are literally dozens upon dozens of publishers doing comics and graphic novels, and all of them need some sort of attention or we, at least, need a modicum of knowledge about them for us to be able to do our job. CBC: Overall in the publishing industry, print is dying. Newsweek, a weekly news magazine with national circulation, goes digital. Left and right, newspapers are going

coming up the following year called Spider-Man and that would be a good vehicle to attach this event to. CBC: Obviously Spidey is a Marvel character. You were publisher of Image, a significant competitor. What’s up with the egalitarian suggestion and what were the reactions to your notion? Jim: LOL! Well, there was silence in the room — the guys from Diamond got real nervous. Bob took a deep intake of breath, Joe tapped my leg and whispered “Thank you,” and I’m pretty sure Mike just looked at his shoes. I said that it didn’t matter whether it was a DC or a Dark Horse or an Archie movie; it’s a comic-book movie and that’s all that’s important. If we’re going to do something together, then let’s do it. There was really no way for anyone to argue, so that was it, the date was set. Had it been a Batman or a Hellboy, a Spawn or a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie that year, we would have attached to it. As it turned out, it was a Marvel movie. CBC: How has FCBD fared over the years? Jim: It’s given most (not all) retailers their best sales day of the year. I can’t speak to whether or not they’ve seen return customers as a result, so I’m not sure how well it’s fared. But I do think that the underlying hope that we can introduce the medium as well as the stores that sell our books to more people, and thus increase our consumer base, is still both valid and worthwhile.

down. Do you find there’s a resilience in people wanting paper? Digital sales are rising, but just my own anecdotal experience every Wednesday and people are coming in, week in and week out. Joe: Here’s the deal: Even in this really tech-heavy day and age that we live in, even those who are most invested in technology still prefer their comics in print. Digital comics at this point might represent 15% of the comics market, whereas, in the book market, digital books and eBooks, that sort of thing, account for over 50%. There are only two forms of print right now that are increasing in sales: comics and — in a much smaller market — Westerns! That’s Westerns in terms of paperbacks, and they’re more a genre than a category, so the only category in print that is going up in sales over the last several years is comics. Part of that is it’s a very different experience to read a comic book than it is to read any other kind of magazine or book. It’s a much more participatory experience. It’s one that’s sort of, I think, stamped into our DNA, that we need to collect something and so it plays into that. There aren’t a lot of people who collect the latest issue of Time magazine for instance, or the Los Angeles Times. It just doesn’t happen. But the hobby aspect of comics has really played well into the strengths of print sales. CBC: Is this the best time to be in comics ever? Is this a golden age we’re in now? Joe: I think in many respects it is a golden age. I know especially that kids coming up through this are just going to look back in awe at all the amazing stuff that was coming out for them during this time. But in terms of my time in the hobby? For me, my personal golden age was when I was 12-years-old. [laughter] But from a business standpoint, I don’t think the business has ever been healthier and it’s healthier because it’s not so Balkanized. That the field is spread-out is really an important part of what makes things better now than they ever have been, but it’s also something that kind of plays against it to a degree, too. It’s a really good time for comics! Let’s just say that!

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

Above: Jim Valentino, one of the original Image Comics collective, and a poster for the first Spider-Man movie [2002]. In 2015, after this feature section appeared in Ye Ed’s ACE: All Comics Evaluated magazine, Joe Field wrote about the initial industry meeting that culminated in the founding of Free Comic Book Day: “The meeting with publishers, including Jim Valentino, to discuss having FCBD took place at a Diamond Retailer Summit (which was likely concurrent with a convention), in Las Vegas, just three weeks after 9/11. It was the first time after the attacks that the industry got together — the first flights out of New York for many — and it was a strange time. There was a spirit of camaraderie at that industry meeting that I haven’t seen before or since.” Below: FCBD has gone international!

All characters TM & © their respective owners.

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KIRBY & LEE: STUF’ SAID!

The creators of the Marvel Universe’s own words, in chronological order, from fanzine, magazine, radio, and TV interviews, painting a picture of JACK KIRBY and STAN LEE’s relationship—why it succeeded, where it deteriorated, and when it eventually failed. Includes a study of their solo careers after 1970, and recollections from STEVE DITKO, WALLACE WOOD, & JOHN ROMITA SR. (160-page trade paperback) $24.95 (Digital Edition) $11.95 ISBN: 978-1-60549-086-1

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In 1978, DC Comics implemented its “DC Explosion” with many creative new titles, but just weeks after its launch, they pulled the plug, leaving stacks of completed comic book stories unpublished. This book marks the 40th Anniversary of “The DC Implosion”, one of the most notorious events in comics, with an exhaustive oral history from the creators involved (JENETTE KAHN, PAUL LEVITZ, LEN WEIN, MIKE GOLD, and others), plus detailed analysis of how it changed the landscape of comics forever! (136-page trade paperback with COLOR) $21.95 (Digital Edition) $10.95 ISBN: 978-1-60549-085-4

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MICHAEL EURY looks at comics’ 1960s CAMP AGE, when spies liked their wars cold and their women warm, and TV’s Batman shook a mean cape!

Digs up the best of FROM THE TOMB (the UK’s top horror comics history magazine): RICHARD CORBEN, Good Girls of a bygone age, TOM SUTTON, DON HECK, LOU MORALES, AL EADEH, BRUCE JONES’ ALIEN WORLDS, HP LOVECRAFT in HEAVY METAL, & more! (192-page trade paperback with COLOR) $29.95 (Digital Edition) $10.95 ISBN: 978-1-60549-081-6

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Colors by Glenn Whitmore. Spider-Man, Joe Smith TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Dateline TM & © Fred Hembeck.

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

comics in the library

Jacob Kurtzberg’s War

Jack Kirby brings his real-life WWII combat experience to the war comics genre

Sgt. Fury TM & © NMarvel Characters, Inc. Our Fighting Forces, The Losers TM & © DC Comics. Foxhole TM & ©the respective copyright holder.

by RICHARD J. ARNDT CBC Contributing Editor You can’t talk about war comics without talking about the King of Comics — Jack Kirby — and his work in the genre. Jack’s work in that category came in four distinct spurts: his Boy Commando work for National (both pre- and postWWII); his 1950s work at Mainline/Charlton, Harvey, and Atlas; his work on the early issues of Marvel’s Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos; and his 1970s work on “The Losers” feature in DC’s Our Fighting Forces. My library has two top-notch collections of Kirby’s war work, the first volume of The Boy Commandos [DC Comics], by Joe Simon and Kirby, and Jack Kirby’s The Losers [also DC Comics]. I bought The Boy Commandos with some trepidation. It had been years since I’d read any of the stories and 1940s stories of this ilk can be crude and jingoistic, and often feature a dismaying amount of racism. Plus, it’s about a bunch of kids fighting — and killing — German soldiers. No matter how unlikely the premise, however, this volume is surprisingly good — better than I remembered from the handful of reprinted tales I read in the early ’70s. The stories neither minimize nor maximize the chance of death. It’s simply there, a part of the world these stories exist within. Simon and Kirby knew how to tell stories with skill and verve. Is it crude? Yes. Colorful? Yes! Exciting? Yes!! I would like to buy the follow-up volume when funding permits. The second Kirby book, Jack Kirby’s The Losers, is a far better collection. Kirby wrote all the stories here, for his last venture into war comics, and there really are no bad ones. Mind you, if you’re a Losers fan, you have to ignore every Losers story published before or after to really appreciate these tales. Kirby made no attempt to tie into the previous (excellent) storyline by Robert Kanigher and John Severin (available in the black-&-white Losers Showcase collection), which had been running just prior to his taking over the book. In fact, that lack of research into what had gone before is a trademark of Kirby’s 1970s work for both DC and Marvel. Characterization is minimal. If the Losers didn’t use the names Johnny Cloud, Capt. Storm, Gunner and Sarge, you wouldn’t know they were the same characters that Kanigher and the various artists on the book had previously been doing for some five years. In fact, every single Kirby story could be about a different four-man team of soldiers, sailors, Marines (what have you) in every issue. The stories actually read better if you do make that mental assumption. Each one- or two-part story is complete in itself and makes no reference to any previous Kirby tale, let alone someone else’s previous work on the characters. Still, these are great stories. “Big Max” from OFF #153 is the most-reprinted tale from these 12 issues, but that’s only because it’s the most Kirby-esque story of the bunch. I like that tale just fine, but there are better stories here. Number 152’s “A Small Place in Hell” is simply stunning. Four G.I.’s go into a small French village

for some R&R, find they’re in the wrong village and that the village is overrun with German soldiers. As the Losers realize their (possibly fatal) error, the action kicks off and doesn’t end until the story ends. The script is tense and taunt. The art, by Kirby and inker D. Bruce Berry, is superb, as one might expect. For my money, this is the best story in the entire run. Another great story is the two-parter, from #157–158, entitled “Panama Fattie.” The Losers are on the Latin American isthmus, going undercover to expose a smuggling ring that turns out to be more than simple trafficking. The head of the gang is Panama Fattie, a heavy-set woman who’s as tough as any man. Maybe tougher! I mentioned that Kirby’s characterization was generally minimal, but this story is the one that proves he could provide it when necessary. You understand that her weight and looks, and men’s casually cruel reaction to that, as well as her clear ability to handle herself among often violent men, has shaped much of her life. When Storm shows her just the slightest hint of kindness, her reaction tells you everything you need to know about both her past and her future actions in the story. Other great tales include “Mile-a-Minute Jones,” from #159; the interesting “Kill Me with Wagner,” from #151; the grim and rather creepy “Ivan” from #160; and the spooky “Partisans,” from #155. However, there are no “losers” in this 12-issue run!. This is simply a great book, with great stories. Kirby’s Sgt. Fury stories have been reprinted a few times and may possibly be a future acquisition, although I personally am not so fond of them. Even early on, the Howlers talk endlessly and any attempt to become serious is severely undercut by the constant jokes. Jokes during a Spider-Man battle may work but not so much with a war title. Still, the Sgt. Fury/Captain America story from Sgt. Fury #13 is both a classic super-hero and a classic war tale—reminding me somewhat of the 1961 film The Guns of Navarone. Someday perhaps someone will gather the eight issues of Foxhole, along with Kirby’s work for Harvey’s Warfront and the various stories he did for Atlas in 1959–1960 and deliver a fine archive volume. That would be a book I’d purchase twice over. One for me and one for the library!

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

This page: It’s completely unfair to emphasize Jack Kirby and Chic Stone’s Sgt. Fury #13 [Dec. 1964] cover (above) over the King’s Our Fighting Forces #152 [Jan. ’75] cover, but the former is a fave comic of Ye Ed’s, so tough toenails. Inks on latter by D. Bruce Berry. Below is detail from Kirby’s Foxhole #1 [Apr. 1955] cover art.

Interview Conducted by Jon B. Cooke 38

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Dawn, art TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner.

In 2010, asked what was the best investment he ever made in life, Joseph Michael Linsner, the Queens, New York-born creator of Cry for Dawn, told an interviewer, “All the thousands of dollars that I spent on comic books in my youth. They made me the man and the artist I am today.” And, before and since, Joe’s gratitude has never faded. In the following interview, he confesses, “I loved comics so much that my lifelong dream was to be a comic book artist. I feel so lucky that I’ve been able to make that happen.” All well said, but it was more than luck that got Joe to where he is today.

Dawn, art TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner.

Truth to tell, hard work and tenacity — and a massive amount of exceptional talent — has brought Joe to the top of his game today. Most mind-blowing is the fact that he is an entirely self-taught artist! From the start, Joe has been tethered to two women. The first is his signature creation, Dawn, who started as a mere host for a horror anthology, and he continues to write and draw her exploits in this, the 30th year since her debut. The other woman? Among the first to buy his first comic book, back in the summer of 1989, Kristina Deak, who is now happily married to the guy!

Transcription by Rose Rummel-Eury COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

This page: Clockwise from above are Joe Linsner’s grade school ID; Joe proudly displays his mural artwork in 1978; the Linsner boys, George, Joseph, and William, in 1977; 1984 drawing by Joe of “Adam Hunter”; and 1984 photo of Joe taken in his mom’s kitchen.

old when I saw that. CBC: How was Queens? Was it city-like or suburban? Joe: We lived in a very small, one-bedroom apartment. My two brothers and I slept in the bedroom and my parents slept in the living room on a fold-open couch. It was pretty urban. I got mugged as a kid. I had a guy put a knife to my throat. CBC: How old were you? Joe: I was around seven. I’d gotten some money for Easter and me and my older brother went to go buy a Mego action figure, which I wanted. We were standing outside the department store and I was counting my money. These older kids came by and one of them put his knife to my throat and I wouldn’t let go of my money. I told him to get lost! My brother almost fainted, but I wouldn’t let go. Finally the kids realized it wasn’t worth it and they left us alone. CBC: [Chuckles] Was it a typical childhood? You watched TV and…? Joe: Oh, yeah. Every day, I lived for Batman. I think my love of Batman came from Adam West, more so than from the comic books. It came on five days a week, Batman was on and I would levitate watching Batman. It was the coolest thing in the universe. CBC: Did you get a chance to go to Manhattan — into the city? Joe: I remember my mom taking us to see different things at Radio City Music Hall, like at Christmas, there’d be some big thing. Aside from that, not too much. CBC: For you, when did comics come into play? Joe: I can’t remember my very first comic book. I was “reading” them before I could actually read, just absorbing the story through the pictures. My mom would take us shopping and we’d stop at a newsstand and my mother would say, “Okay, you guys can get something.” My brother was into baseball cards, so he’d get a pack of cards and I’d get a comic book. I’d always get Batman or something like that. I can’t even remember the first one because they were just always there. CBC: In a chronology you wrote for me, you pointed out your first Conan the Barbarian comic. [laughter] Joe: My father was an electrician and he had a friend come over for dinner one night, who was a younger guy and something of a hippie. My father told him I read comic books and he brought me a copy of his favorite comic, which was Conan. I had never heard of Conan and at first I thought his name was “Co-man,” because everyone in comics was a “man”: “Superman,” “Spider-Man”… it took

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Photos © Joseph Michael Linsner. Adam Hunter TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner..

Comic Book Creator: Joe, where does the name Linsner come from? What’s your family’s ethnic background? Joseph Michael Linsner: Linsner is a German name. My father was German and my mother was Irish. My mother’s maiden name was Breen and both families came to America around the turn of the century, I think. Both my parents were from Astoria, Queens, and they met in the early ’60s, got married, and had three kids, and — tah-dah — here I am! CBC: Where are you among the siblings? Joe: I’m the middle kid. I have a brother who is three years older and a brother five years younger. CBC: All boys, huh? Joe: All boys, so there was plenty of fighting and crashing downstairs; all that stuff. CBC: Were your parents creative at all? Joe: When I was growing up, my parents did needlepoint and crocheting, but part of me thinks my mother was a frustrated artist. From the time I was four years old, my mother really encouraged me to do the arts thing. Maybe in a different life, my mother would have pursued art, or maybe she got it out vicariously through me. CBC: So, she would speak encouraging words to you about your work and support you? Joe: Yeah, from a young age, I remember her sitting me down and saying, “You should watch this,” [the movie] The Agony and the Ecstasy… Michelangelo painting the Sistine Chapel. It really blew me away. I must have been five or six years

Photos © Joseph Michael Linsner. Batman TM & © DC Comics. Adam Hunter TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner.

me a second to realize it was “Co-nan.” From that moment on, I fell in love with Conan. CBC: What was about the character you liked? Joe: It was something raw and direct about Conan. Even at that age, it used to frustrate me that Batman would catch The Joker time and time again, but would never kill him! The Joker would just get loose again and cause more chaos. Why didn’t Batman just kill him? It made no sense to me. [chuckles] Conan didn’t have that problem… “Whack!” He just took out his enemies! That made more sense to me. CBC: This is the John Buscema and Roy Thomas’ Conan? Joe: Yeah, my first one was by Rich Buckler and Ernie Chan, or Ernie Chua as he was known at the time, but I fell in love with Buscema’s work through Conan. Right after that, I got my hands on the Savage Sword of Conan. My first issue of that is the one where he gets crucified, which I still think is one of the most amazing comic books ever done. CBC: Why is that? Joe: The power, the intensity — of all the insane things, he gets crucified and lives through it! The mythic resonance of the hero being crucified, like Prometheus chained to his rock. And Conan survives it. He survives and then gets revenge on the guys who nailed him up. So awesome. The art is by John Buscema and “the Tribe”, but I think the best pages are inked by Tony DeZuñiga. The crucifixion scene where he kills a vulture with his teeth is one of the all time great comic book sequences. And when he pulls the nails out of his own bloody feet — so powerful. CBC: [Chuckles] Did you have a religious background as a kid? Did you go to church? Joe: No, thank God. [laughter] My older brother had to go through his communion… we were supposed to be Catholic. He went through it and because it was such a hassle, my mother gave up by the time it came to me. CBC: So she didn’t make you go to catechism? Joe: I hated regular school so much, to do anything more than that seemed like a nightmare. My mother, until the day she died, had strong religious beliefs, but she let me pursue whatever I wanted to on my own. CBC: When did she pass away? Joe: She passed away in 2012. CBC: Did she ever look at your work? Did she ever have any comments about religious themes in your work? Joe: No. She was always very encouraging and I can say that I’ve never drawn a single thing I’d be ashamed to show my mother. I would do pin-up art and nudes, and my mother was a firm believer that there was nothing more beautiful in

the universe than the human body. I had friends say, “Wow, if I drew that, my mom would yell at me,” but, no, my mom was always very encouraging. CBC: The early years, before you moved to Long Island, would you say your family was poor? Joe: Lower middle-class, I would say. I had friends who would come over to our house to play and they would think I had a lot of toys and there were other kids’ houses I would go over to their house to play and I thought they had a lot of toys. We were somewhere in the middle. CBC: You were a pretty sociable kid? Joe: Yeah. I guess I stuck to myself, but I was also that weird kid in class who drew. That’s a particular niche, I think, that I clearly fit into. Every school has that weirdo in the corner who draws. At my school, that was me. CBC: What did you draw? Joe: Batman, the X-Men… and then Conan. CBC: You were known as an artist…? When I was a kid, I would use that to “impress the girls,” that was a part of it: being known as an artist. I would draw cartoons for girls. Joe: Come to think of it, any time I’ve connected to a girl, it’s been through my art. Yeah, I guess, as a teenager, I’d draw things for girls and befriend them that way. CBC: What did you want to be when you were in grade school? Joe: When I was really young, I may have dreamt of being an astronaut, but as soon as we moved to Long Island, the concept of being an artist took root in my head. I knew from age 10 or 11 that I was going to be an artist somehow. Plus the isolation of moving to a new neighborhood and having to make all new friends really forced me to develop my inner world. I

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

This page: Clockwise from far left is JML drawing in his bedroom, 1985 (among the items tacked to his wall is a quote from the TV show, The Odd Couple, one attributed to Felix Unger: “Never overstay your welcome or you’ll never be welcome to stay over”; JML riding an “Iowa Dragon” in 1986; convention ID from 1993; Adam West as the Caped Crusader; and JML’s “Adam Hunter,” circa 1987.

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

loved comics so much that my lifelong dream was to be a comic book artist. I feel so lucky that I’ve been able to make that happen. CBC: So, you were 10 years old when the family moved? Joe: Yeah, and it really was like moving to another planet. We suddenly had a backyard. I had my own room. My brother had his own room. I got to be more of myself, I guess, and I wasn’t so cramped in. CBC: Was it a neighborhood of kids playing kick the can and that kind of stuff? Was there a group of kids that you might have played with? Joe: Not so much. Actually coming from Queens going out to Long Island, the kids

seemed very green and very innocent compared to the things I’d seen in Queens. Shortly after moving to Long Island, I got my first job as a paperboy, so many hours of my day were consumed with being a paperboy. That also helped with the development of my inner world and daydreaming, having to spend a few hours every day by myself while delivering papers. CBC: Before that, did you get an allowance? Joe: Once upon a time, my brother and I would get a dollar a week. That was always spent on comic books. Once I became a paperboy, I liked having money. I liked the equation of working and having money and being able to pursue my interests. CBC: Was it Newsday? Joe: Yes it was. I was a paperboy for five years. I had, I think, ultimately around sixty customers. CBC: How much could you pull in a week? Joe: Twenty or 30 bucks! CBC: Wow, that’s a lot of money for a kid! Joe: Yes, it was. I remember at one point calculating how much I’d made over a couple of years and realized, “Wow, that’s over $5,000!” I looked around my room, and where did it all go? I’d spent it all on comic books. CBC: In Long Island, did you have a place — a drugstore or some place that you would go to, where you’d regularly buy comics? Joe: There was a newsstand and then my older brother, who also liked comic books, and I would take a bus and the subway and go back to Queens where they had a great comic-book store, Mike’s Comic Hut, which was amazing. Also, on Long Island, there was a place called The Incredible Pulp, where I’d also go get comic books. CBC: Did you start getting back issues early on? Were you collecting as opposed to being a reader? Joe: I never got the collecting bug, Jon. My older brother appreciated that side of it, but for me, it was all about the reading. CBC: Still, you kept all the issues, right? Joe: Oh yeah, I still have most of my comic books. I think the first back issue I hunted out was Incredible Hulk #181, the first appearance of Wolverine. I think I got that for 50¢. I was reading The X-Men straight from Giant-Size X-Men #1. It was alluded to in there that Wolverine had appeared somewhere else, so I was like, “Okay, Incredible Hulk #181, let’s see what that’s about.” So, that’s the first back issue I hunted out. It’s all beat up, but I still have it! [chuckles] CBC: You could still get a couple hundred dollars for it! There were Creation Cons taking place in Manhattan. Did you go to conventions? Joe: Right. My first one was in 1981. I had a cousin who

Conan TM & © Conan Properties International LLC. Obsidian Stone TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner. Photo © Joseph Michael Linsner.

was also into comic books. I would see ads in the backs of comic books and always thought, “Wow, wouldn’t that be cool to go to a comic convention?” Then, my cousin called me up and said, “Joe, guess what? We’re going to a comic book convention.” That was amazing seeing everything that was out there, seeing original comic art for the first time. I remember meeting Neal Adams and Keith Pollard, who at the time was drawing Thor. I thought he was going to look like Thor, but he’s actually an African-American gentleman. He was as nice as could be and that was great, meeting the people who created the comic books… I loved it. Neal Adams showed a couple of short films he’d directed. I think one was called Never Mug The Devil, which had one great shot of the devil pulling out the mugger’s heart and crushing it. He talked about how the comic book industry was dying and that he was all set to transition into films. That put quite a spin on my little head. CBC: Was that a Creation Con in the city? Joe: Yes, it was! CBC: What was it about Excalibur you specifically have listed here as an important event? What is about Boorman’s film? Joe: First of all, the film is beautiful… the costumes, the cinematography… There were so many frames from that movie I could blow up and put on my wall. It is just a feast to the eyes. It has action and romance and subtext. That was the first movie I remember watching where the symbolism finally bored into my little pea brain and the light bulb went off! “Oh, I get it!” I had already seen it probably a dozen times by then, but this one time — bingo. I could see the narrative working on multiple levels. There’s a part where Perceval is drowning and he has to shed his armor to keep from drowning. That works on a literal level of a drowning knight making himself lighter, but it also works metaphorically where he’s shedding his preconceptions, letting go of the things that shield his ideas. Once he is able to open up, that’s when he is able to find the grail. CBC: Believe it or not, I’ve only seen it for the first time about three months ago. What a remarkable movie! Joe: I have a crystal clear memory of the first time a saw a commercial for it – I sat bolt upright and knew I had to see this movie. It was rated R, and I was only 12, so I would need an adult to take me. My mom took my cousin and me to the theatre, but there was no way she was gonna sit through a three-hour fantasy film. At first, she tried to send us in alone, but the theatre said, nope, they need an adult. I nearly died! I had to see this film! Luckily, my mom found a kindly weirdo in an Army jacket to escort us into the film. Once we were in, he found his seat, we found ours, and my life was changed forever. I know it’s not for everyone, but something about it totally connected with me. I still watch it at least once a year. CBC: Of course, having swords didn’t hurt either. Joe: I remember talking to Howard Chaykin about different fetishes in fiction and he thinks guns are a more valid fetish. But, for me, I’d choose a story about guys with swords over guys with guns any day. CBC: Your father passed away in 1983? You were quite young. Joe: Yes, my father died when he was only 42. That was very traumatic, very earth-shattering. He was the breadwinner and my mother had been a stay-at-home mom. When he died, everything got turned around. We didn’t know if we were going to lose the house and have to move back to Queens. But my mother was able to get a job and raise three kids without a father. CBC: How did he pass away? Joe: He died of lung cancer. It’s ironic. My father was an electrician and he worked at the Nassau County Medical Center, but from working in the hospital, he dreaded becoming somebody who was hooked up to a machine in the hospital to stay alive. The cancer consumed him quickly because it was found very late. In just a few weeks he was

gone. CBC: Were you able to be with him, spend time with him in his last days? Joe: Yes, I was. CBC: Were you angry about it? How did you manifest that? You were an adolescent, right? Joe: Yeah, I was 14. I was very angry at the universe about it. I’m still angry at the universe about it. [laughter] But life goes on. My father was always very proud of my art. My father was a fan of pin-up art and that’s where I get my love of pin-up art. I really wish my father could’ve lived to see where I’ve gone. I know he’d be very proud of me. CBC: How have your brothers been? Are either of them creative? Joe: Not so much. All three Linsner boys have strong passions. My older brother was into sports, so he got a football scholarship at one point and probably still collects baseball cards. My younger brother has a real passion for music. He’ll travel to Europe to go see a concert. He’s that obsessed. CBC: What are their names? Joe: George, the older brother, and William. CBC: How were you socially? Were you a long-haired kid? Were you Goth? What was middle school and early years of high school like? Joe: All of us Linsner boys wanted to grow our hair long and our mother would force us to get haircuts. I remember my older brother crying. I shrugged and said, “Oh, well, it’ll

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

Previous page: Clockwise from top left is a movie poster from John Boorman’s Excalibur, a hugely influential 1981 film on JML; still from same; Batman as drawn by JML, 1987. Another of same, this one also from ’87. This page: Above are the covers of Conan the Barbarian #40 [July 1974] and Savage Sword of Conan #5 [April ’75]. At left is JML’s 1986 portrait of Obsidian Stone. Below is a photograph of JML posing to use as reference.

grow back.” But I guess, when I was 14 or so, my mom got tired of fighting with us, so I was able to grow my hair long and, to this day, it’s still long. The back of my neck doesn’t feel right with short hair. Socially, somebody once called me a “one-man clique.” I knew people in different groups. I knew some of the Goth kids, I knew some of the metal-heads, some of the burnouts, some of the eggheads… but I didn’t belong to any one group. I didn’t really find my “group” until I started doing comics. Kevin J. Taylor, Greg “Dark One” Williams, Richard Kane Ferguson, Lance Tooks — Cry For Dawn Productions brought those guys together, and I’ll love them until the day I die. But there is only one guy I still talk with from high school. Aside from him, I hardly connected with anyone in any deep way. CBC: Did you always get along with girls? Joe: I did. Going back to when I was a little kid, my best friends were always girls. CBC: Why is that, you think? At home, you’ve got nothing but brothers. Did you have girl cousins or other girls in the

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Elric of Melniboné TM & © Michael Moorcock. Inferno TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner. Art © JML.

Above: Early example of JML’s sequential storytelling. From 1985. Below: Michael Moorcock’s Elric of Melniboné as envisioned by JML in 1986.

house besides your mom? Joe: I had a couple of cousins, but I think you may have hit the nail on the head: Because I was stuck with two brothers, I appreciated hanging out with girls. Aside from the influence of my mom, who was cooped up with all these boys. Maybe going out and hanging with girls gave me a different perspective and I appreciated being away from my brothers and fighting all the time. CBC: After the loss of your father, when your mom went to work, what did she do? Joe: She worked in a department store, Woolworth’s. CBC: As a clerk? Joe: Somewhere in their ordering department. CBC: You had your paper route, were you expected to put money in the house? Did that come up? Joe: Yeah, after I turned 16. My mother laid down the law to me and my older brother. It wasn’t much, probably $15 or $20 a week. But yeah, we all had to help out. CBC: You were instilled with the work ethic when you got a paper route? Joe: Correct. The longest time I went without a job was in the summer when I was 17, when I went three months without work. Other than that, I’ve always had one job or another. CBC: I was looking at an index of your work is really steady from the beginning of your professional career to today. Joe: Yeah, I’ve been very lucky in connecting with an audience and with different editors and getting my stuff out there. CBC: Is it luck? Is it sheer tenacity? Is it that you keep on top of it? You have to work on deadlines, so you have to think two jobs in the future to make sure the income is steady, right? Joe: Oh, yeah. Certainly. I think luck has a certain place in the whole equation. I can’t figure it out. I’ve been doing this for 30 years and can’t figure it out. I know many talented people who can’t connect, for whatever reason. There’s a certain editorial dance that I’m still learning. I’m still getting a grip on that aspect. I used to think everything was about ability because I would look at all the comics that, say, Marvel was publishing and look at who their worst guy was (I won’t say who that is). But, I’d look at that guy and say, “Well, that guy stinks. I’m better than he is, so why don’t they hire me and get rid of him?” I’ve since learned that timeliness and being able to meet a deadline and being able to get along with people all contribute to the greater good. Talent isn’t everything. You have to be able to meet a deadline and get along with people. People like to hire their friends, but that applies to every field on the planet, not just comics. There is an awful lot of nepotism in comics, but that’s the way of the world. CBC: Have you ever been under contract? Joe: I had a contract with Sirius Entertainment when I helped form the company. I think that was a six-year contract. I have a contract right now with Image Comics although it’s very open, which I appreciate. CBC: You are able to do work for Dynamite? Joe: Yeah, one of the things I love about Image is the freedom. I’m able to do whatever I want with my own creations and coming from a background of self-publishing, I need that freedom to be able to do a card set or a lunchbox anytime I want. Whatever I want to do, I’m able to do it without having to ask a bunch of editors. CBC: Did you do early homemade comics in junior high and high school? Did you do sequential storytelling? Joe: Yeah, I did. I never completed any until I did my first real comic book, Cry for Dawn #1. I would do comic pages in high school and as a kid. I totally loved Pacific Comics. I dreamt that one day I would write and draw something for the independent market. I thought they were such a fantastic breath of fresh air. Growing up, everybody knows the story of Siegel and Schuster — how they got ripped

Elric of Melniboné TM & © Michael Moorcock. Creation Con program art, panel art © Joseph Michael Linsner.

off — blah, blah, blah — so, from a young age, my mantra was, “That’s not going to be me. I’m going to own my own stuff.” As a teen, I discovered Eisner and discovered that he owned his own stuff! He owned The Spirit! That was incredibly inspiring to me! Wow! Here’s someone who did it! So from a young age, 13 or 14, I knew I was going to do my own creations and I was going to own the rights to them. I wasn’t going to do anything stupid and sell it away, sign it off for just a paycheck. CBC: When did you realize you had a knack for drawing women? Joe: As a teenager, I guess. I always loved the Vargas girls that appeared in Playboy. We grew up in a very small apartment and my father collected Playboy and you couldn’t hide things in that apartment, it was too small. My mother would always catch me looking at my father’s Playboys and say, “Leave those alone!” But there was something magical about Alberto Vargas. As I hit puberty, I started to try and draw girls. Sometime in high school, kids took note of it, “Wow! You can draw some sexy girls.” I once based a couple of characters in my sketchbook on specific girls, and I beamed with pride when kids would say, “hey, she looks like Michelle.” Even Michelle got a kick out of it. CBC: Did kids solicit you and ask, “Hey, can draw me one”? Joe: Yeah, I started taking commissions in high school. Kids would ask me to draw Wonder Woman or Starfire from The Teen Titans. Different things like that. I think I was only charging $5 or something totally puny like that. CBC: Have you seen any work recently you did from back then? Joe: I have! Some kid I drew stuff for in high school put stuff up on eBay a few years a go. That blew the top of my head clean off, it was stuff I never thought I’d see again in my lifetime! That’s the thing about the internet: you can’t hide. Everything you’ve ever done will pop up. CBC: How much did they sell for? Did you keep your eye on the auction? Joe: It didn’t sell for much… like $80 or $90. Looking back, I should’ve bought them myself! I was in too much shock to think clearly. CBC: That’s kind of cool: you were doing commission work before you had a real job! Joe: Right! [chuckles] CBC: Was part of your appreciation for Pacific Comics about the work of Dave Stevens? Joe: Absolutely. Dave Stevens’ The Rocketeer was so amazing. This was, again, a person doing his own thing. He owned the rights to his own character and just doing his own crazy thing. There was nothing else like The Rocketeer when it came out, as no other comic books at that time, I think, were set in the ’30s. And there was his dedication to craft. His books didn’t try to come out on a monthly schedule and he was putting everything into every page and creating this masterpiece. The original Rocketeer graphic novel is a true masterpiece. It’s such a seminal work. Years later, I got to meet Dave a couple of times and he was just the nicest person in the world. It’s truly a shame he passed away so young. CBC: So, you took art classes in high school?

Joe: I took art in school, but I actually think I learned more on my own. When I was 12, I got How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way. That was a revelation. I’d always loved John Buscema’s work and seeing the nuts and bolts of how you draw a figure and the explanation of how to do perspective… the nuts and bolts… how a human body should be eight heads high, things like that, all that very basic stuff. The way I draw now is still based on what I learned in that book. CBC: So you never went to art school? Joe: No, I applied for a couple of scholarships. I came close with the School of Visual Arts in New York. I think over 5,000 kids applied and I got down to the final 100, but I blew it on my interview. CBC: What happened? Joe: I don’t know what happened. That was the school that had Will Eisner teaching at the time. I didn’t want to come across as a comic geek, so I didn’t hammer home that I wanted to go there because of Eisner. So I think I was too aloof. I didn’t get the scholarship. So my friends went to college and I ended up getting a day job after high school at an auto-parts warehouse. I told myself, “Okay, if I don’t make some kind of progress within four years after high school, I’ll go through an agonizing reappraisal and go back to school.” Thank God, I didn’t have to do that. I hate school. I hate the whole classroom environment. Growing up, every day, going to school was torture. CBC: Did you date in high school? Joe: Yeah, a little bit, but I was in my own little world. I’d stay up all night drawing. I didn’t really date, or have an

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Above: Elric by JML, circa 1985. Inset center: Tony Alamo jacket. Below: JML art for Creation Con 1990 program book.

It’s page after page after page of drawing. I was a different artist after drawing that first one. There were all sorts of artistic muscles I didn’t know I was going to need. I didn’t know that until after drawing that first comic book. CBC: When you first started going to the conventions, did you seek out professional artists’ advice who were already working and try to get a sense of the life of a comic book artist, or were you totally romanticizing it? Joe: I did talk to other pros. Some people were incredibly generous and supportive… Steve Bissette… I owe so much to Steve Bissette! He was the guy who told me I should just self-publish my own comic book. He laid out the exact nuts and bolts of how you publish. I had the misconception that a lot of people have: that you print one up and then you sell it. He said, “No, you put it in the catalog first, then you get your orders, and then you print it.” That was a revelation. That was amazing. Steve was kind enough to write the introduction to Cry for Dawn #1. CBC: Wow! That’s very supportive. Joe: He’s a great guy. There’s a place in heaven for Steve Bissette. And the black & white tonal work he did for Marvel in Epic and Bizarre Adventures totally rocked my world. I adore that stuff. CBC: He clued you into the realities of working in the industry, right? Joe: Yeah. CBC: Right. So you circumvented that at an opportune time. On Earth II, in a parallel universe: Say Joe got a job at Marvel. Do you think you’d be as happy? Joe: Um. I’ve often thought about that. I think part of me would have been happy, but always, in the back of my head, I’d probably be dreaming about doing my own thing. I remember talking to Mark Texeira about this, and he said, “Wow, how did you do your own thing? That’s so courageous!” I said, “I did my own thing because I couldn’t get a job at Marvel! I gladly would’ve sold out, but they didn’t want me! So, I was forced to do my own thing.” They wouldn’t give me The X-Men, so I was forced to do my own thing! CBC: Right. How did you start zeroing in what that “thing” was? What was the genesis of bringing that into focus? Did you toy with other concepts? Were you thinking up things all the time? What was the process like for you? Joe: Well, I’ve always had my own characters and my own storylines. CBC: What were they? Joe: Pretty much what has ended up in the Dawn comic books. When I was younger, I had different super-heroes, like all little kids have ridiculous super-heroes they come up with. But, the stuff that really took root, I put in to Dawn comics. I’ve always loved anthologies. Growing up, I loved Creepy and Eerie and the fantastic work in those books. So, when the idea of doing a comic book came up, it was, “Let’s do a horror anthology.” Doing a couple of short stories seemed easier than doing an ongoing storyline. Cry for Dawn was supposed to be a one-shot anthology. It was supposed to only be one issue, but nothing else was happening after the first issue, so “Okay, let’s do some more.” CBC: Right. How did the character come about? Joe: The character Dawn came about from a drawing I had done in a sketchbook of a girl covering her face. She had a corset on with a skull lace pattern. The whole drawing, the reason I drew it… I had the idea for the skull lace pattern. If you’re going to draw lace, it has to go on a body. It started with the lace pattern and then I drew this girl and to give her a sense of mystery, I had one arm covering her face. This drawing really connected with my friends. Any-

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Vargas artwork © the respective copyright holder. Continüm Presents TM & © the respective copyright holder. Dawn TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner. Artwork © JML.

Above: Alberto Vargas was renowned for his pin-up artistry in the pages of Playboy magazine. This piece is from Esquire, Feb. 1946. Inset center: JML’s first published comic book work appeared in Continüm Presents #1 [Oct. 1988]. Below: JML’s first drawing of his signature character, Dawn, was featured in his late 1980s sketchbook.

official girlfriend until after high school. CBC: How long did you live at home? Joe: I didn’t move out until my early 20s, after I’d already started publishing. Right after high school, I got a day job, and mom insisted on rent. She made us pay $200 a month. It’s still puny, but it’s something. CBC: That’s a lot for living at home! You’d sold commissions in high school. You admired people who were independent and held on to their own material. Here you are, graduating high school, not going to college… what did you want to achieve? Joe: Well, I dreamt of someday drawing my favorite characters, getting into either at Marvel or DC. I would put together samples and go to the conventions in New York and show my stuff and try to take feedback. I met a couple of very nice editors. CBC: Who did you meet? Joe: I remember having a great conversation with Jim Owsley, who, I think, goes by the name Christopher Priest these days. I think that’s the same guy. He was very encouraging. When you’re that young, getting a bit of positive encouragement counts for so much. Knowing that something is possible and if you keep trying, something might happen. So, I’d show my stuff around. I set up the first time at Creation Con, at Thanksgiving, in 1987. My girlfriend got me that spot. She was friends with a guy in the comic book store that Creation had in Long Island. She asked, “My boyfriend is an artist, is there any chance you’d give him a table?” I showed them my stuff and they were kind enough to give me a table. That was the first time I set up and was doing sketches. It was at that show that I met some guys putting out a black-&-white comic book, a thing called The Foton Effect, which wasn’t very good, but I found out from them how much it cost to print a comic book. At the time, you could get 5,000 copies of a black-&-white comic book with a color cover printed for $1,500. I think at my day job, I was bringing home $160 after taxes and I thought, “Wow! I could save up enough to pay for the printing a comic book.” I talked to a friend who also liked comic books and said, “Hey, let’s do a comic book.” And that was the genesis of Cry for Dawn #1, which eventually came out in December 1989. It took me over a year to actually draw the first issue. I always say that it takes an awful lot of work to draw a comic book, so I try and cut new guys a little slack when they show me their first homemade effort. Just getting something done takes a huge effort, let alone something good. It’s like running a marathon.

Cry for Dawn, Dawn TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner. Artwork © JML.

body who saw it in my sketchbook said, “Oh, wow. She’s really cool. Who is she?” I was like “Okay, I should make a character out of this drawing.” I realized she couldn’t be covering her face all the time. [chuckles] I came up with the Veronica Lake hairdo covering one eye. The three tears, they gave her an extra sense of mystique. We came up with the title Cry for Dawn before the character and I think that’s where the tears came from. Okay, if the book’s going to be called Cry for Dawn, there should be tears. CBC: What is “Cry for Dawn”? What does it mean? Joe: The title was just a general, all-purpose horror title. It could mean a million different things. It seemed like a great title for an anthology. Wherever… CBC: Somebody begging for the sun to rise and night to be over? Joe: Exactly that. It’s a classic motif in horror movies, that’s when the nightmare ends: when the sun comes up. CBC: Was music a part of you growing up? Joe: Oh, sure. I love music and I have to have music playing when I’m working. CBC: What kind of music did you like? Joe: Everything from classic rock-&-roll like Led Zeppelin and old Van Halen to the Cocteau Twins and other experimental things. I am more drawn towards things that push the limits. I love both the band Yes and The Sex Pistols. One band aims high and the other low. They’re both breaking the rules, but in different directions. I really don’t care for stuff in the middle, standard bar band rock and roll. Give me Brian Eno and Massive Attack. CBC: Did you go clubbing at all? Joe: A bit… in my early 20s. I went to concerts and had a great time. The best concert I ever saw was jazz guitarist Stanley Jordan, at the Blue Note, in New York. It’s a tiny club, and I was sitting maybe10 feet away from him. The man is a genius. These days, the last concert I went to, everybody was holding up their stupid phones. That part of my life is over. I can’t appreciate concerts anymore. CBC: Do you see a type of person who likes your work who might reflect the Goth… the corsets, the whole rigmarole that Dawn has. I’m way too old to peg it, but there’s a look. There seems to be a musical underpinning or a Goth underpinning. Is there a type of person who comes up, who’s not necessarily a comics fan, who say they love your work? Joe: Oh, yeah! I’ve had fantastic crossover success with people into the Goth culture or whatever… people who’ve never read a comic book. Both bikers and Goths can connect with my work. I’ve had so many tattoo artists tell me they keep my art in their tattoo studio and people who wouldn’t be caught dead reading a comic book say, “Wow, I want that!” There’s a ton of people outside the world of comic books who appreciate my work. I’m very thankful for that. CBC: Has that opened doors for you of interesting artists you never otherwise would’ve encountered, like tattoo artists or Goth artists? Is it a two-way street? Joe: Yeah, I’d say so. My own artistic tastes go all over the place. I love traditional illustrators like Rockwell and Leyendecker as well as modern guys like Robert Valley and Carter Goodrich. I love Banksy. You know, I think it’s very healthy for people to look outside comic books to see differ-

ent types of art and let that filter down through their brain and expand their vision. Too much of the problem with comic books is people don’t get different input, they don’t get new inspiration. It’s like they’re Xeroxing themselves; they’re not breaking out and doing anything new. CBC: Can you think of recent stuff you’ve encountered that you’re inspired by? Joe: Believe it or not, recently I’ve come to appreciate Jackson Pollock, of all things… the whole concept of a painting that is completely nonrepresentational. It is what it is. It is hermetically its own thing. It’s not trying to portray any other thing. It’s not capturing reality. It just exists within its own framework. I love that concept. I love something visually existing in its own sphere. CBC: Okay, so for your first convention: what was on the table? Joe: I’d done a bunch of super-hero drawings: standard guys like Batman, Robocop, Wolverine, Conan, and I connected with my first fans. A lot of those people still pop up at conventions. They’ll occasionally break out drawings I did 30 years ago and embarrass me! [chuckles] CBC: Was the stuff any good? Joe: They thought so! [laughter] I look at it now and it

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Above: The concept of Dawn’s tears first arose in JML’s sketchbook. Inset left: Cry for Dawn #1, the first significant comic book by JML (as well as the initial appearance of his signature character, Dawn) included an introduction by Stephen R. Bissette. Below: Back cover of same.

Above: Dean Haspiel’s comic strip celebration of the life and achievements of friend and collaborator Harvey Pekar appeared in Entertainment Weekly, Dec. 24–31, 2010.

Below: Author Jonathan Ames [left] and Dean Haspiel pose with the latter’s 2010 Primetime Emmy Award for “Outstanding Main Title Design,” for the artist’s work on the HBO series Bored to Death. Dino shared the honor with fellow title designers Tom Barham, Marci Ichimura, and Anthony Santoro.

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Dawn TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner. Art © JML.

makes me want to cry! CBC: How did you get your anatomy? You just kept working at it? Did you do still-lifes? Did you have models? Joe: Yes, one of the great things about having a girlfriend was having her pose for me. I’d draw her in my sketchbooks. I also started accumulating anatomy books… I must have 30 different anatomy books. I think it was Jim Morrison who said, “Unless you want to be a brain surgeon or rocket scientist, where you need specific equipment, if you want to learn something, you just need access to a good library.” I think that’s totally true. I think if you get your hands on the right books, you can teach yourself virtually anything. CBC: If you could peg one anatomy book to recommend to others, which would it be? Joe: Let me walk over to my bookshelf. Hmmm… Human Anatomy for Artists, by Eliot Goldfinger. That one. I look at that book all the time. In fact, I still constantly work on learning my anatomy. That’s one of the things I try to nail home for young artists when they show me their work at conventions, because the human body is the most complex machine in the universe. I’m perpetually learning new things. I think that’s great advice for everybody: “Keep

working on your anatomy. It doesn’t matter how you choose to articulate your art. Even if you want to do something more stylized — like Charles Schulz.” Charles Schulz still had a great understanding of the way the human body moved. When Charlie Brown is in a bad mood, you feel it because Charles Schulz understood the human body. CBC: Can you pinpoint one of those moments, creatively, when you had an epiphany when it came to anatomy? When, all of a sudden, you recognized how the human body works? When things started better falling into place? Joe: Well, a big moment for me was drawing that very first comic book. Again, it was like running a marathon. I was a different artist after that because comic books, unlike just about every other field of illustration, demands so much drawing. You have to draw from every single angle. There are so many background things that have to be drawn time and time again. If you have Doctor Strange walking into a room, you have to draw the doorknob and the stupid, dull things that nobody would ever draw for fun. But to tell a story, you have to draw these things. You have to know the human body and move it from panel to panel. That’s what really nailed it home for me. CBC: Before that first comic book, in 1988, you did storyboards? How did that come about? Joe: At a convention in New York, I met Richard Schenkman, who was a commercial director (and he’s still directing movies) and he asked me, “Have you ever done storyboards?” I said, “No, but I’d love to.” From there, I still had my day job in the auto-parts warehouse, but I started doing freelance work in New York, doing storyboards for commercials. That was a revelation for me because, at the time, I was showing samples of comic pages to different editors and they would nitpick the stupidest details. I remember getting yelled out by some moron because I didn’t use a circle guide for a tire in the background. That dumb little detail seemed so important to this one stupid editor. I thought, “Okay, I’ve got to work on my tires in the background.” But doing storyboards, nobody ever nitpicked over stupid details like that. That was a great shot of confidence. It was a reassurance to my ego, “I can do this. I can be a professional. I can go out there and swim in these waters.” CBC: What’s the process of that? You’re pretty green, right, at storytelling, and you’re here suddenly doing storyboards? Is some of it hit and miss? To do a storyboard, it’s a set up for commercials, mostly, right? For the camera work and editing. Joe: Right. On the storyboards, I’d be working with the director. He’d say, “On shot A, we’ll see this, this, and this. On shot B, we’ll see this, this, and this.” That actually helped me get a grip on visual storytelling. If it’s not on camera, then it doesn’t exist, you know? CBC: You really lucked out, right? You’re learning how to take wide-angle shots and then close-ups and then storytelling devices. You’re learning in a professional atmosphere… quite literally a commercial atmosphere. Joe: Yeah! Luck is such a big part of it. I got very lucky. [laughter] CBC: Yeah, I’m starting to see how luck plays out! But you’re also very talented… just sayin’. Then, you get a day job airbrushing Tony Alamo-style jackets. Joe, what’s a “Tony Alamo–style jacket”? Joe: Back in the ’80s, Tony Alamo manufactured these over-sized, horrible, gaudy jackets that had ten million rhinestones all over it. They would say, “Los Angeles” or “New York.” (He eventually went to jail for running a cult, as all of his brainwashed workers were working for free). On Long Island, I was working for a company called Just Brass. They were doing knock-off Tony Alamo jackets and it was totally an assembly line process. It was great for me because I learned how to use an airbrush. My day job went from working in an auto-parts warehouse to using an airbrush all day long. Getting a grasp on how to use an airbrush was invaluable training.

Dawn TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner. Art © JML.

CBC: You got you first short story published? That was an eight-pager? Joe: It was four or six pages. Little, short thing. In the mid- to late ’80s, after the wild, unpredictable success of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, ten million people started putting out black-&-white comic books. A guy in New York had seen my stuff at a show. In 1988, he put out Continüm #1 and I did the cover and a short story. That was another little shot in the arm; a nice confidence-builder. CBC: What was the story? Did you write it and draw it? Joe: Yeah, I wrote it and drew it. It was a dumb little story about a guy who was chained up and dreaming about his ex-girlfriend. Yeah, the story was pretty awful… [laughter] CBC: It must have been a thrill to see your first work in print. Joe: Yeah! Actually, being able to open a comic book and say, “Wow! My work is in a comic book!” What a thrill! To this day, whenever a new book comes out, opening the box and pulling out that first copy, is still a thrill for me. CBC: Did you get paid? Joe: Yeah. Just a couple hundred dollars, but it was something. CBC: Joe Monks was your partner in Cry for Dawn. How did you know him? Joe: We knew each other from high school and were close friends in school. He had aspirations for being a novelist and I wanted to be an artist, so when the opportunity came up to do a comic book, I said, “Let’s do a horror comic.” That worked out for a couple of years. CBC: What was his involvement? He was the writer? At the time, did he have any claim to the character that’s on the cover? Joe: No, Dawn was always mine and I was very clear about that right from the beginning, “Dawn is my character — she’s going to be on the covers, but she is mine.” She was gonna act like the traditional horror host and introduce all the stories, but we fought too much about that, so she only did that in the first issue. After that it was, “No more,” so she only appeared on the covers after that. CBC: You did not want her to be a host? Or he didn’t want that? Joe: We couldn’t agree about what her voice would sound like. What attitude she would have about the stories. Was it going to be corny like Elvira or spooky like Uncle Creepy? I wanted something wry and philosophical like Rod Serling, but we could never nail that down. CBC: You had the sketch that people responded to, the first sketch with the lace. Was your sense of ownership right from that moment? “People like this; I can do something with her”? Here it is, the creation of your lifetime so far, right? Joe: Yeah, I never thought I’d be drawing Dawn 30 years later, but here I am. CBC: I didn’t realize Cry for Dawn is the title of a horror anthology, and “Dawn” is a character; two separate things. Joe: Yes, they are. CBC: But she’s still known as “Cry for Dawn,” right? I always thought that was her full name. Joe: That was never her name, although, like you, a lot of people to this day call her “Cry for Dawn.” No, Cry for Dawn is the title of the anthology and her name is Dawn. After the first issue, she only appeared on the covers and since Cry for Dawn was an anthology, the covers could be anything just so long as she was on them. And, by doing the covers and back covers and various other spot illustrations with her, I was able to cultivate this story line; with all these different elements, I was allowed to let my imagination run free. What became the first Dawn graphic novel, Lucifer’s Halo — started in Cry for Dawn #3. I did a drawing of a demon standing over an angel. He had just killed the angel and stolen his halo. I thought, “Wow, what an interesting artifact… the concept of stealing a halo from an angel… and whatever powers a halo might have.” The ultimate

halo might belong to Lucifer, the fallen angel. Whatever happened to that halo? Did Lucifer still have it? Was it taken away from him when he was defrocked, so to speak, and was cast off into hell? All these things began to come together on the different covers of Cry for Dawn. Once CFD folded and I shifted gears and was going to finally do a story with Dawn, everything led to that. During the course of Cry for Dawn, so many people would ask, “When are you going to do a story with Dawn? I want to see a story with the girl on the cover.” I didn’t want to do that until I was ready; until I had a story I felt was worthy of her. Though I love Vampirella, a lot of her stories don’t live up to the character’s potential. In a lot of the Vampirella comics from the ’70s, she looked really good, but the stories were lame. I didn’t want to fall into that trap. CBC: So you did all the airbrushing on the covers? Joe: Right, that was all me. CBC: This is a direct link to you working on the jackets? You learned your

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but I spent a lot of money on legal motions to take that thing off the market and find out who was responsible for it. CBC: Did you? Joe: There’s a likely suspect whose name I will not say. He ultimately ended up in jail for selling drugs. He was a guy out of Atlanta. CBC: How many copies of the counterfeit do you think were sold? Joe: I think 1,000 copies were printed. And years later, it’s still damaging. I’ll have people come up to me with a bootleg and they won’t know it’s a bootleg. I feel horrible for those people. It still pops up. It’s been a nightmare. There’s a very small club of people who’ve had their books bootlegged. There is a famous Cerebus #1 bootleg. There’s a bootleg of the first Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles comic. I don’t want to be a member of that club, but I got forced into it. CBC: How can you tell it’s a bootleg? Joe: There’s a distinct moiré pattern on the cover. The moiré pattern is what you get when you screen something that’s already been screened. It gives it that extra moiré pattern. The interiors are darker; the paper is different. If you see a real one next to a bootleg, you can tell in a heartbeat, “Obviously, there’s something’s wrong with that one.” CBC: Do you have a copy of the bootleg? Joe: I’ve got a lot of copies, which I’ve had to confiscate over the years. [chuckles] On the advice of my lawyers, I’m supposed to confiscate every copy I come in contact with. But, for the most part, if people bring it over to me to sign, I say, “Sorry, I can’t sign that; it’s not authentic.” CBC: Oh, so you do inform them? Joe: Oh, yeah! CBC: Do you know the value of an authentic Cry for Dawn #1, generally? Joe: I think it’s around $100. When Dawn switched to color, the value of her first appearance went up, I think to around $300, but it’s settled to around $100 these days. CBC: What do you think of the early comics that you did, in looking through them? To be specific, in Cry for Dawn #1, you did the cover. Did you do a story inside? Joe: Oh, yeah. On the first three issues of Cry for Dawn, I did all the interior art and I wrote a story or two for each issue. Starting with Cry for Dawn #4, we started getting other artists to illustrate Joe Monks’ stories because we had different ideas about what kinds of stories we wanted to tell. Pretty much after #4, I wrote all of the stories I drew in Cry for Dawn. CBC: Done in pencil? Joe: Pencil, ink, wash, Zip-ATone. Something I really miss about an anthology: Every issue I could do something different; every issue, I could play around with different techniques. That being my first comic book, that was so much fun… that was fantastic, being able to play around every issue. Do something crazy every issue; keep mixing it up. These days, when I work on a series, I believe a story should have a greater sense of integrity. You shouldn’t start a story in pencil and finish it up using ink and Zip-A-Tone unless there’s a narrative need for changing a technique. I think a story should have a consistent tone to it. CBC: The issue you had with Monks is why the collections are called Angry Christ Comix? Joe: Yeah. At the time, the name “Cry for Dawn” was coowned. However, since then, I am sole owner of the name “Cry for Dawn” right now. CBC: What was the impact of the first issue? How do you

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Dawn TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner. Art © JML.

expertise working with the airbrush, to bring to the covers you did? Joe: Yeah, the airbrushing is part of my technique. I very much work with mixed media, acrylic paints, markers, airbrush, pencils… whatever works. CBC: When one thinks about Joe Linsner’s style, it includes the lush airbrushing, the lush coloring… I don’t even know the right phrase… Joe: Yeah, I can’t help but polish every belt buckle and doorknob. It’s my curse. When I was showing my stuff around as a young man to different editors in 1988, I remember showing it at Continuity Studios, Neal Adams’ company, and I basically got chopped up, viciously. Not by Neal Adams, but one of his associates who looked at my stuff. He thought I had zero future as an artist, but he did compliment me on my sense of color. He shrugged and said, “I don’t know, maybe you’ll get work someday as a colorist…” I always had good sense of color. CBC: And that guy was wrong. [chuckles] Joe: Yeah, he was wrong. But, still, luck is such a big part of it. I know so many artists who can’t run the gauntlet. They get a couple of brutal critiques and it just crushes their spirit. After that guy chopped me up, I didn’t draw for a whole month. That’s the only time in my life I didn’t draw. I finally got my sense of self back together and found my pride again. Part of my determination after that was, “I’ll show them!” CBC: Hmm. Can you explain the history of Cry for Dawn Productions. How it went and how it ended up? Joe: My dear mother, when I told her I was going to go into business with a friend, she warned me, “Be careful. Don’t go into business with friends.” People always say that. And my mother was right. When you go into business with a friend, you let things slide and certain resentments build up. It wasn’t a good match. Our sensibilities were too different. We ended up wanting to do different things. I chalk it up basically to the inexperience of youth. We didn’t have proper contracts because we were friends and trusted each other. Live and learn. That was not meant to be. CBC: How did you guys ultimately end up? When there was a counterfeit Cry for Dawn #1 popping up, you banded together to quash it. This was after Cry for Dawn Productions ended. Did you maintain a cordial relationship? Joe: Oh, no. It got vicious and ugly. The last time I talked to Joe Monks was in a lawyer’s office in 1993. Then years after that, when the bootleg of Cry for Dawn #1 came out, I don’t know if he ever lifted a finger to do anything about it,

Dawn lookalike Dragon Con photo © Patrick Sun. Used with permission. Dawn TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner. Art © JML.

recall it? Joe: I guess it raised a couple of eyebrows; it made something of an impact. At the time, there were a bunch of other cool black-&-white books coming out: James O’Barr, in 1989 or 1988, started doing The Crow. There was a really cool feeling in comics right then. Guy Davis started doing Baker Street, which was so fantastic. I’m a huge fan of Guy Davis; I love his work. Caliber at the time was publishing a lot of really cool black-&-white books. I think when Cry for Dawn came out, on good days, people would associate my books with those books. CBC: Did you debut it at a convention? Joe: Umm… [laughter]… The first show we set up at with Cry for Dawn, we only had one copy because we were idiots! We didn’t realize that the printer held onto the overprints… the overrun. This was Port Publications, back in 1989. What they would do was hold over the overruns so that if you had additional reorders from Diamond Distributors or whatever, they would take care of the shipping for you. In our stupidity, we didn’t think to have them send us some cases. We set up and had only one copy to show. However, at that convention, in January 1990, I met Kristina Deak, the very first human who came over and said, “I read your comic.” At the time, I didn’t believe her. She said, “No, no, no, I picked it up at my local comic shop.” We got to talking and became friends. Oh, so many years later… I married her! [laughter]

CBC: You referred to her as “a very good editor.” What was she editing? Joe: Kristina has never formally worked as an editor, but her eye… her sensibilities, I’ve come to rely on. Nothing leaves this house without first showing it to Kristina. If something doesn’t look right — if an elbow doesn’t look right, she has no problem letting me know that. People need that. Artists need some honest criticism; someone who will point out where they screw up. The flipside of that is when you get someone… George Lucas’ Star Wars prequel movies, for instance: I think Lucas was surrounded by too many “yes men” — not enough people stepped forward to say, “This isn’t working, George.” CBC: “You forgot to put ‘fun’ into it!” Joe: Yeah! These days there are a few people I show my stuff to, I value their feedback. These are people who pull no punches. Because if something’s wrong, I want to know about it before I send it to the printer. I don’t want it to have a mistake in it and some fans tell me, “Hey, you screwed up over here.” I’d rather find out beforehand. CBC: Some of the material I see in Angry Christ Comix… you wrote in your introduction that some of the sexual violence in “Dropping Anchor,” you were surprised how angry you were when you did it. Joe: I was an angry young man. CBC: Where did that come from? Joe: I think I was angry at the world because my father

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Above: Atlanta’s annual fan gathering, Dragon Con, for a spell featured a Dawn lookalike contest. At top, in a photo by Patrick Sun, are the 2010 contestants. Inset left: JML’s cover art for the convention’s 2007 souvenir book. Below: Tiffany Antrim as Dawn.

This page: Joe was requested by Dark Horse to change his original Conan #2 [Mar. 2004] composition (above) to a more aggressive stance (below).

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Conan TM & © Conan Properties International LLC.

Faust is an X-rated super-hero comic. I’m friends with those guys and they totally know what they were up to. If someone went to Cry for Dawn expecting the same cheap thrills they got with Faust, I think they would be really let down. I don’t think we ever had excessive gore or nudity. It certainly never went anywhere near being X-rated. If anything, it was an R-rated level. Like I said earlier, I would never draw anything I wouldn’t show to my mom! My mom saw every issue of Cry for Dawn. But, yeah, some of it was pretty strong. CBC: Do you see the recent wave of political correctness as a sea change and there’s a possibility that people will look back at your work and treat it differently? Is it a concern? Does it bother you? Do you think about it? Joe: I don’t dwell on it. I do think America has gone crazy with the political correctness. It truly is dumb. I remember when Carrie Fisher died, Steve Martin made a tweet that she was one of the “most beautiful creatures I had ever seen.” These lunatics jumped all over him for describing her as a “creature.” If you have a brain at all, you’d realize that for hundreds of years, people have been describing beautiful people that way. That made me want to scream; it’s so stupid. In terms of Cry for Dawn, I don’t know if I’d be able to… first of all, I don’t want to do horror stories right now. If I put out that stuff now, I might get jumped on; I might get lynched by the politically-correct mob! It’d be kind of scary if that happened now. CBC: The spiritual nature… the good and the evil, the angels and the devils… this whole ethereal realm that your character was getting involved in… did that just emerge out of you naturally? Was it intentional? Did it surprise you that you were getting into these big, epic themes? Joe: Well, like I said, my favorite movie is Excalibur. It has these big epic themes, concepts, and visuals, so I’ve always had a love for that type of material. As a teenager, I discovered Siddhartha, by Hermann Hesse, which is probably my favorite book. It’s a retelling of the story of the Buddha. I re-read Siddhartha every year, just like Dune, another favorite. The first book that made my world open up was Mythology, by Edith Hamilton. I read that when I was a little kid and that stuff really appealed to me and spoke to the core of my being. My mother raised us to be Catholic, but she wasn’t strict. A lot of that never meant anything to me… it was just white noise, but getting into different world mythologies, that spoke to me and opened up my world. So, after getting the venom out of my soul through Cry for Dawn — doing these intense stories — there was a conscious decision to do something more positive. I remember people saying, “Wow, man, Cry for Dawn was really intense. You guys are messed up!” I thought, “That died so young. Angry because I didn’t was not my whole world.” With Dawn, I get the scholarship and angry bewanted to get closer to what I’m really cause… because I was angry! I rememinterested in. As Joseph Campbell would ber showing my work to different editors say, “follow your bliss.” and I felt that I had something to contribCBC: That was with Drama? What was ute and I was angry because I wasn’t your first new… getting away from Cry getting more positive response. So, over for Dawn Productions and you’re going the course of doing nine issues of Cry to retain a character… what was the first thing? for Dawn, I think I got a lot of that anger out of my system. Joe: The first thing was Drama. It’s a collection of three At the end, I wasn’t as angry because I was finally getting my work into print; I was getting it out there. So after Cry for short stories and actually the first story in there, “PsyDawn, I focused on Dawn. Dawn is about rebirth and about chobabble,” was supposed to be in Cry for Dawn #10, but we had our falling out, me and Joe Monks, so that never choosing a more positive spiritual path. The Cry for Dawn happened. I colorized it and it became Drama. Drama is the stuff… that was the negativity, the venom being pulled out of my soul. Whenever I’ve looked through that stuff, I’m still springboard for Lucifer’s Halo, the first Dawn color series. CBC: Did you map out this mythical realm of Dawn? You’re surprised by how angry it is. It’s some very dark stuff. creating your own mythology, right? CBC: Did you get negative reactions at all when it first Joe: Yeah, and picking and choosing from other world came out? There was sexuality in the material; it is comics mythologies, which, ultimately, is what everybody does. and it was the late ’80s, early ’90s… Joe: A lot of people would lump Cry for Dawn in with Faust, Everyone picks and chooses the things that appeal to them and connect with their psyche. Even if someone says, “X is by Tim Vigil and David Quinn. Let’s call a spade a spade:

Red Sonja TM & © Red Sonja LLC.

my religion,” they might pull things from other religions and not even realize it. CBC: Exactly. Did you do a lot of conventions in those early years? Joe: Oh, yeah. CBC: How many weekends out of a year? Joe: Gosh, sometimes as many as 20 or 30 in the old Cry for Dawn days. CBC: How did you ever work, Joe? Joe: Actually Cry for Dawn Productions did suffer from that. We’d never be home long enough to work on the books. These days, I try to keep it down to around 10 conventions a year. CBC: Right. The industry’s been supportive of you and the distributors have been supportive of you…? Was it a struggle or were you well-received? How did it go? Joe: Yeah, actually, the distributors have been supportive and encouraging. It’s gotten a lot of good play over the years. I’ve been very lucky. I don’t know who else in comic books has walked a similar path. CBC: It’s definitely an interesting road that you’ve taken, but certainly in the last 15 or 20 years, you’ve been spending a lot of time going in and out of the mainstream with the big guys and retaining your own… working with Image and Dynamite… Did you contribute much to other people’s projects? You mentioned the anthologies. They’re always going on here and there and rarely make any money, but did you want to do that? Would it have been ideal? Joe: Yeah. I see different anthologies come out all the time and I’d love to do more. I don’t get asked often enough to do short stories. DC will put out anthologies and I’d love to contribute; I’d love to get asked to do more. CBC: What genres have you not worked in? Joe: I’ve never done a cowboy story. CBC: I thought so. Joe: [Chuckles] One of these days, I will because I have stories I have to get out there. I’ve never done a period piece, like a ’40s noir. I think that would be a lot of fun. CBC: Have you done war? Joe: Yes, actually, in Cry for Dawn there was one story that had flashbacks to WWII. There was a couple of pages of war stuff. CBC: Who is Dawn? Joe: Good question! Dawn is my take on the classic goddess figure, the Venus figure who is the source of all life and inspires men to do more, to keep going. Dawn is part-Merlin, the way Merlin will aid Arthur, inspire him, and allow him room to make mistakes on his own and learn from them. A large part of Dawn does the exact same thing with Darrian Ashoka, who is the protagonist in the Dawn comics. Dawn is all my thoughts about the feminine ideal, the feminine mystique… they all come together in Dawn. The Dawn comics have a post-apocalyptic setting because I like the idea of Earth’s surface being wiped clean, and then reinventing the gods. Some gods will survive, and some will fade away. Old gods will return and they’ll have to fight it out. In the middle of that is basically a love story between Dawn and Darrian, the shadow and the light. Part of him would like to avoid the whole mess, but she knows what is good for him and pulls him into the heart of it all. She is his inspiration. CBC: What was the name of your initial model? Joe: A number of ladies have tried to make the claim, but Dawn isn’t based on anyone specific. Dawn is a combination of Ann-Margret, part Marilyn Monroe, part Sophia

Loren, part Ava Gardner, part Vargas girl — the icons that made a strong impact on me. I took all these icons, put them in a blender… and out came Dawn! That’s why she’s perpetually changing and perpetually becoming someone new all the time. If I had to draw Dawn in one specific look, like Wonder Woman, I probably would’ve stopped drawing her a long time ago. My own tastes and interests are constantly changing and evolving, so Dawn reflects that. CBC: She has very specific… ummm… attributes. Her physique: is that based on a real person? Joe: No. CBC: Idealized? Joe: Just my ideal, and I’ve kind of Frankensteined her together from these icons.

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Above: Dawn 2011 sketchbook piece by Joe. Below: 1990 sketchbook piece. Next page: Joe’s variant cover for Escape from New York #5 [Apr. 2015].

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Dawn TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner.

CBC: Well, you can’t see the stitches! [laughter] I’m a heterosexual male and I find her physically mesmerizing. Do you have people coming up and going, “Wow!”? It’s pin-up and yet it’s not. To me, it’s not so much gratuitous, as it is alluring. Do you encounter an obsessive attitude sometimes? Joe: I do. I’ve had a couple of very die-hard people go a little overboard. I remember one lunatic sent me photos of his house and he’d literally plastered pictures of Dawn on every square inch of his walls. But I’ve been very lucky that people, both male and female, connect with Dawn and that I feel like I’m doing something good for the world. Dawn has more traditional features. She does not reflect the modern skinny supermodel and she’s curvier. I’ve had both male and female fans say they find that inspiring. I’ve actually had a lot of women say they feel more comfortable in their skin because they see something of themselves in Dawn. In many ways, that’s the ultimate compliment. CBC: What’s the breakdown of readership, gender-wise? Joe: I think it’s 60% male and 40% female. CBC: Forty percent female? Joe: Yeah, like 40% female. CBC: Wow! That’s fantastic.

Joe: I’ve been very lucky. A lot of guys who draw sexy girls, their work alienates female readers, but I’ve been very fortunate that I have women who connect with my work and appreciate it. CBC: You said you were an angry young man and you see that manifested in the early stories. Have you ever, has anyone ever accused you of misogyny? Joe: Yeah, that’s popped up, but those people are in the extreme minority. I’ve had more positive response than negative. In the early days of Cry for Dawn, there were a couple of people who called Cry for Dawn, the “I hate my girlfriend comic book,” but that was a long time ago. CBC: You certainly don’t come across, to me, as misogynist — though I do confess that I haven’t read everything — but certainly, in a visual manner, it appears you like women. Joe: Yeah, I do. Absolutely the number-one influence in my life has been my mother. I loved drawing something and showing it to my mom. That little kid pride, that glow. A smile from my mother could make me levitate. All the way up to her passing away, I was still showing my work to my mother. From a very early age, my mother knew I loved Conan, so when I got to do covers for Conan from Dark Horse, my mom was glowing because she knew what it meant to me. So, my mother being such a strong presence, I don’t think I could’ve gotten away with doing any evil, misogynistic stuff. My mother would have read me the riot act if I’d done anything like that! CBC: Right. Are you angry now? Joe: I’m angry about different things; I’m angry about the state of the nation, but on a day-to-day basis, I’m a pretty contented guy. I have a wife who I love, who understands me and puts up with me. She inspires me every day. Yeah, I’m a very lucky guy and I know that. CBC: I see you at conventions and you always seem content and friendly. In the years I’ve known you, I’m surprised you had said you were angry because you don’t come across as such. Joe: Thank you, Jon. That’s good to hear. In the early days, in the Cry for Dawn days, people say, “I remember you back in those days, you were kind of grumpy.” I wasn’t getting along with my collaborator, Joe Monks, so sometimes I was grumpy. Doing those horror stories in Cry for Dawn was kind of an antidote to that anger, just being able to do work that meant more to me. I think all any artist wants in life is an audience. Someone who is interested in your own brand of weirdness. I’ve been blessed. I’ve met people from all over the world who like it, who’ve been impressed with it, and they want to see more of it. I could not ask for anything more. CBC: Cry for Dawn Productions collapsed. How does that lead into Sirius? Joe: Sirius was put together by two guys who had actually helped with certain things in Cry for Dawn: Robb Horan and Larry Salamone. They had a background in the New York commercial film business. They’d worked on commercials in New York. They wanted to start a comic book company so they could cultivate things that would someday become movie properties. Their end-game was to get things turned into movies. Who doesn’t want to get a movie done? It made a lot of sense to work with them. When Sirius formed, I was the art director and helped design things and make sure things looked right when they went off to the printer. With Cry for Dawn, I got pulled into the deep end of the pool because we started working with other artists. I was the production guy. I had to figure out what to tell the printer and make sure everything was sized properly, do the pasteup for all the editorials and take care of the typesetting and all that horrible, horrible stuff. [chuckles] This was all pre-computer so it was all glue sticks and X-Acto knives. I still remember the smell of the bluebooks, the proofs, which were all done on photographic paper and, man, those things stank! And color keys! Do you remember color keys? CBC: Yes, I do. I do.

Snake Plissken TM & © the respective copyright holder.

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Dawn TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner. Black Cat, Wolverine TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Above: Dawn piece by Joe from 2015. Below: Cover art for the first issue of Claws [2006], drawn by Joe. That Marvel mini-series was written by Jimmy Palmiotti and Justin Gray.

CBC: Did you ever recoup some of what they owed you? Joe: I sued and there was a settlement, but it wasn’t anything like what I was owed. CBC: I’m astonished to hear Dawn #1 sold 158,000 copies! Joe: Yeah! That month, it outsold, I think, both Superman and Batman. That was the mid-’90s and the streets were paved with gold. It was a very different industry back then. I believe the numbers went like this: For Cry for Dawn #1, our initial orders were for 6,000 copies and, by the time it died, it was at 24,000 copies. When I did Drama, the numbers were around 56,000 copies, and the year after Drama, the first issue of Dawn came out and it more or less tripled. All through the Cry for Dawn years, people said, “Hey, I want to see the redhead; I want to see stories with her.” So, I think there was this long drum-roll of anticipation starting in 1989 and leading up to 1995 with the first issue of Dawn came out. And it worked! [laughter] CBC: That’s really incredible, in the mid-’90s, that you had an incredible three or four years there of success and recognition. You were nominated for two Eisner Awards for “Best Cover Artist” and “Best Special Project.” You have this hugely selling book that is outselling Superman. Your publisher, Sirius, won the Gem Award. Did it go to your head? Joe: No, I don’t think so. Like I said, I’ve always had this core group of friends around me and anytime I’m getting out of line, or acting like a jerk, they’ll let me have it. I don’t think it went to my head. If you ask other people, they might have a different opinion. [chuckles] I’ve always tried to just be obsessed with the work. The fact that it goes out there and gets read by the people is almost an extra benefit. For me, the joy is doing the work itself. CBC: The money was coming in? Joe: Yeah, those years were pretty lucrative. CBC: Were you able to sock it away? Were you able to buy a house? Joe: I eventually bought a nice house, which I still live in. CBC: Where is it? Joe: It’s just outside of Atlanta, Georgia. I bought down here because I could get more for my money. I always loved the city of Atlanta, so once I left New York, I wanted to live out in the woods, so I love where I am… although I do miss civilization! I think sometimes, I’m a little too into the woods. CBC: How did the rest of the ’90s go? Joe: Things were good with Sirius for a couple of years. I had a couple of fantastic projects out there. I always wanted a soundtrack for the Dawn comics. One good thing Robb Horan did… I said, “Robb, it would be great if we had a soundtrack for Dawn.” He said, “How about a Gary Numan soundtrack?” I was like, “Wow, would that be possible?” Through the glory of the internet, he was able to reach out Joe: I still have a lot of the old color keys from the old Cry to Gary Numan, who is famous for having done “Cars,” that for Dawn days. It’s amazing… the digital revolution. Publish- great single that came out in the early ’80s. Robb was a ing is so much easier these days. huge Numan fan and Numan consistently put out music that CBC: Sirius: did you get a salary? Did you have partial was never released in America. He had an album coming ownership? out in England, called Sacrifice, which had all these very Joe: In the beginning, I had partial ownership, but I traded similar themes to Dawn, all these angels and demons and that for a better percentage deal. Things worked out well mythological stuff. What Sirius did, they repackaged the with them for the first couple of years. They eventually hired Sacrifice album in the United States as Numan/Dawn and I other people to take care of the production duties, which did a lavishly illustrated booklet. It was a cheap thrill getting gave me more time to work on my own stuff. I never enjoyed to meet and hang out with Gary Numan a couple of times. being the production guy. Sirius… a lot of people thought He was a great guy! It was really cool. it was my company, because Cry for Dawn, when it went CBC: You had Randy Bowen who did a statue and Todd belly up, we were publishing five or six books and a couple McFarlane Toys did an action figure? of those came over to Sirius. Sirius inherited a readership Joe: Yeah, I got very lucky with that. I’ve since done Dawn and books that were already coming out and were already statues with Clayburn Moore and Diamond Select and Fewsuccessful. They hit the ground running. Sirius actually won ture Models, a Japanese company. I can’t count how many the Gem Award for “Best New Publisher,” in 1994 or 1995, Dawn statues there have been… probably 15 or so and when they started publishing. Life was good for a couple of there are plans to do even more! In fact, I just did one with years, there. Ultimately, they started playing funny games Dynamite that I’m very proud of. It came out last month. with the accounting. It got to be such a backlog of royalties CBC: How close is Dawn to being made into a movie? that I wasn’t getting paid, that as soon as my contract was Joe: There’ve been a few people who asked about rights up, I had to leave. over the years. But, anybody I’ve talked to, they didn’t get

Wonder Woman, Superman, Batgirl TM & © DC Comics. Killraven TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Above: Various illustrations by Joe of his take on various super-heroes. Below: Joe wrote and drew a dream project, Killraven, for Marvel in 2005. Bottom: Killraven, Warrior of Mars, figure (with background details added later), originally created for the Roy Thomas 75 th birthday jam illustration organized by Ye Ed and John Morrow in 2015.

it. They either wanted to just keep her and throw away the entire storyline, or do something completely wrong with it. I have a dear friend, Kevin Taylor, who is an artist and writer. He did a book called Model by Day, which was adapted and turned into a TV movie, actually starring Famke Janssen, and I believe it was written and produced by Jeff Loeb. The movie was awful; Kevin was very unhappy with it. The changes they inserted made no sense and the movie was truly a disaster. I think a lot of times, Famke doesn’t even put it on her resumé. A friend of mine said, “Would you rather have no Dawn movie or a bad Dawn movie?” I said, “You know, I think I’d rather have no Dawn movie!” [chuckles] Until the right opportunity comes along, I’m fine with no movie. CBC: You left Sirius and started Linsner.com? Joe: Yeah, I started a website and was very successful with that. Today, I self-publish lithographs, sketchbooks, and smaller-end things. The big stuff usually goes through Image Comics because they have greater resources than I could ever have. Image does all my trade paperbacks, all my art books, and the color comic books. Dynamite has done my card sets and I have another card set coming out this year. CBC: How does that work with Linsner.com? Did you have employees? How big did you get? Joe: At one point, I had two people work with me to run the website and help with fulfillment. But, these days, it’s pretty much just me and Kristina. CBC: What does Kristina do? Joe: What doesn’t she do! She helps me with the books and she’s also an artist and a writer. Right now, she’s writing a Vampirella series that I’m drawing. When orders have to go out for Diamond, she’ll help me pack the boxes and ship it off to the distributor. I always think of it like on a submarine: everyone has to know everyone else’s job, so if someone gets hurt, someone can step in and be the radar operator, or whatever. Whatever job has to be done. From

my experience, the small publishers, the ones that flourish, have a small crew where everyone multi-tasks. Whenever I see a small company pop up with a roster of 30 people, I think, “Oh, they’re going to be out of business in a year.” Ninety percent of the time, I’m correct. If you have a small team and everyone knows what they’re doing, that seems to be the way to run a small company. CBC: How much of your time is taken up with doing commission work? Joe: I try to save that for the weekends. During the week, I try to work on the main projects and then to cleanse my palate on the weekends, I’ll do commissions. CBC: So, did you work nine-to-five on weekdays? Joe: No, I’m a night owl, so I’ll start work maybe one or two o’clock in the afternoon and work a couple of hours, take a break for dinner and then I’ll be back in my studio and work until four or five a.m. I’m much like Stephen King, who says he has to write every day of the year or he doesn’t feel right in his skin. I’m the same way. If I’m away from home, I can relax and enjoy myself, but I like being in my studio. It’s my own little world. CBC: How did you get the Killraven one-shot? Joe: I had befriended Jimmy Palmiotti. He and Joe Quesada had started up the Marvel Knights imprint. I said, “Hey, I’d love to do something with you guys.” Jimmy said, “What would you like to do?” I had always loved Killraven. Reading those comic books as a kid blew my mind. I said, “Hey, can I do a Killraven

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Dawn TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner.

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Dawn TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner.

one-shot?” They said okay. I wrote up a script and they approved it, and, before you knew it, I had done a Killraven comic book! It was fantastic! A couple years earlier, in 1993, I had gone to the Marvel offices. At the time, they were publishing Marvel Comics Presents, which was an anthology. I said to the editor, “I’d love to do a Killraven book; it’s perfect for your anthology.” The editor said, “Didn’t they kill him off?” I said, “No, they didn’t kill him off!” So I knew more about Killraven than he did. That didn’t happen then, but in 2000, I was able to do that one-shot, which was great. CBC: Not any Marvel work until you did Claws? Joe: I think I did a couple of covers here and there. I had submitted a proposal for a Galactus one-shot, and that had gotten approved, but when 9/11 happened, I switched gears and did a benefit for the Red Cross, called I Love New York. In my schedule, I had a certain window of time to do the Galactus thing, but did the Red Cross book instead. After that came out, I had to get back to Dawn. It will probably never get done. CBC: You didn’t do anything on it? Joe: I did one or two pieces of art. It’s a painting that’s never seen print. CBC: So explain the story behind the 9/11 book. Joe: I’m a New Yorker; no matter where I live, I’ll always consider myself a New Yorker. It’s in my blood. Seeing my city attacked, it was like something out of a science fiction movie. It was inconceivable. I remember going to see the Manhattan skyline when there was still smoke rising out of Ground Zero and it was the most insane thing I’d ever seen in my life. I had to capture the heartache, confusion, and anger. I had to get that on paper. I wanted to help somehow. Over the years, I’ve met a number of people who’ve said they went down to Ground Zero and helped out. I would not be able to make my best contribution by doing that, but to write and draw something and give a contribution to such a fine charity — the Red Cross — I felt like a did my part. CBC: How much did it raise? Joe: We were able to donate $10,000. CBC: Very nice. Joe: Yeah, I’m very proud of that. CBC: Did Gary Groth’s criticism of that book get under your skin? Joe: A little bit. I think he was a little harsh. But… eh. From day one, I’ve gotten mixed or negative reviews and I’ve built up a pretty thick skin. If someone has valid criticism, I’m all ears, but most of the time with reviews I’ve seen that are negative, people just approach the material wrong or it’s something they weren’t going to respond to anyway, no matter what. With Gary Groth and Fantagraphics, their whole shtick is very… prejudiced. They think the Fantagraphics group can do no wrong and everyone else is second tier. So right out of the gate, I knew it would be biased against me. CBC: As you mentioned with your mother’s delight, you were able to work on Dark Horse’s Conan. Joe: Yeah, I did two different runs on the covers. I think I did 18 covers total. I’d still love to adapt a Conan story. I’m a big Robert E. Howard fan from when I was a teenager. I started reading the comics and then started reading Howard’s prose. One of these days, I will adapt some Conan story. A lot of that stuff is in the public domain now. CBC: Hell, yeah! Joe: Hell, yeah! Queen of the Black Coast is in the public domain. Maybe one of these days, I’ll do that one. CBC: You stayed friendly with Palmiotti and you did the Claws. Joe: Yeah, yeah. Jimmy is such a fountain of creativity. He can work in any genre. I just got to talking with him and had I just finished a Dawn mini-series and wanted to do something different. With Claws, I wanted to do something a little more lighthearted and Jimmy is one of the funniest

Above: xxx.

guys on the planet. Along with Justin Gray, who co-wrote the book, Jimmy and I did two different Claws mini-series. I just wanted to have fun and do a lighthearted comic book. At the time, there were no lighthearted comic books, now there are a couple. Jimmy and Amanda Conner, his wife, I love their run on Harley Quinn. Those are great, fun books. I think comic books could be anything. They can be serious, they can be War and Peace, they can be existential angst in a comic book, or you can do something fun and lighthearted. I grew up reading MAD magazine and Archie Comics and some of my favorite comic books of all time are the classic ’50s full-color MAD comics by Harvey Kurtzman. That stuff is fantastic. I love that stuff. CBC: I was looking through one of your collections here. I have to say when you do your line work — of course, I like your color work — but I particularly like your humorous stuff, your comedic stuff. It’s really good and I want to see more, damn it. [chuckles] Joe: Thanks! From the Cry for Dawn days, for a while I had a reputation of a very gloomy guy, but I’m actually quite

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Previous page: The cover art of his 2002 collection, The Art of Joseph Michael Linsner, the promotion of which included this awesome piece of hyperbole: “More than simply pinup art, Linsner’s work illuminates a complex mythology, rife with its own symbolism and language. Ever wanted to go to Heaven, Hell, and Beyond? Linsner’s art will take you there.” Above: Another Dawn illustration featured in the Art of Joseph Michael Linsner book.

Above: Vampirella: Roses for the Dead #2 [July 2018] cover art by Joe Linsner, whose wife, Kristina Deak-Linsner, wrote the four-issue mini-series. Below: Vampi listening to her iPod in a 2015 commission by JML.

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Vampirella TM & © Dynamic Forces, Inc.

lighthearted! I’d love to do more funny comic books. Some of my favorite artists are guys known for their humor work: Will Elder is a genius in my opinion. I still find new things hidden in the backgrounds on stuff he did in MAD and Goodman Beaver. I love that stuff. CBC: Your humor work is great. I see it in The Best of Crypt of Dawn. Crypt of Dawn was you just in lieu of using the title Cry for Dawn, right? Joe: Correct. It was another anthology and at the time, the name “Cry for Dawn” was jointly owned… although now, I’m the sole copyright owner. CBC: So, with your mom, you had moved to Georgia, you bought a house. Did you stay in regular contact with your mom? Joe: Yes. I was always very close with my mom. After I moved, I’d see her a couple of times a year. We’d talk once a week. Whenever I’d get a new project out, I’d send her copies. CBC: How did you find out she passed away?

Joe: My aunt called me. She had beaten breast cancer and she had a couple other health issues. One morning, she just died of a heart attack. Her heart just gave out. CBC: How old was she? Joe: She was 74. My mother always had a fantastic Zen outlook on life and, by the time she passed away, she had become a grandmother. I don’t have children and never wanted children, but my younger brother has two daughters. So, she became a grandmother, she got to see her three sons happy and successful in what they were after. I could sense from my mother that she was at peace with the universe and whenever the end was to come, she’d be okay with that. CBC: Who are Sinful Suzi and Obsidian Stone? Joe: Sinful Suzi is a character I’ve been playing with for the past couple of years. With Dawn, it’s a very straightforward fantasy dealing with heaven and hell and these different cosmic forces. Sinful Suzi is more lighthearted and a much more satirical look at heaven and hell. She’s someone who ends up in hell and doesn’t feel she belongs there. One way or another, she’s going to try to outsmart the guys who rule hell and get out of there. Obsidian Stone is a character I’ve been drawing since high school. He’s the oldest character that is still alive in my imagination. I’ve wanted to do a big, Baroque, epic fantasy with him for years and years. When I was young, I had a fantastic Cinemascope epic in my head, but didn’t have the artistic chops to do it. I remember making a conscious decision, “One of these days, I’m going to be good enough to do Obsidian Stone and good enough to get what’s in my head on paper.” Now, I think I can do it. Since my mother passed away, I realize that life is short. If you have something you’re dreaming of, it does no one any good if it only exists in your head. You have to make it real; you have to get it on paper. In 2013, I finally got those characters out there and made them real. Through Image Comics, I published a one-shot called Sin Boldly and that was just a teaser… a taste of those two characters, because I have so much more I want to do with them. Twenty nineteen is going to be all about Dawn, but maybe next year, I’ll do something with one or both of those characters. CBC: Is it a humor strip? Joe: Sinful Suzi is. I think it’s funny. Obsidian Stone is more of a classic fantasy. CBC: Then you went into working with Jimmy again and Amanda and working on Harley Quinn. Joe: Yeah, that was pure joy. That was so much fun. Jimmy and Amanda are both artists and they know what will work visually in a comic book. I’ve worked with a couple of writers over the years who can’t think visually, and they’ll ask for the impossible. They’ll want a panel where they’ll describe the T-shirt on the chest of a guy, but they also want to show what’s behind him. “Well, make up your mind? Is the camera in front of him or behind him?” They’ll ask for ridiculous things. Working with Amanda and Jimmy was a dream. It was pure fun! Never a dull moment. Those comic books are hysterical and they’re lighthearted. Working on my Dawn comics, I can never do Dawn on a monthly basis because it takes a lot out of me. When I can just be an illustrator on Harley Quinn, that’s pure joy. CBC: Your characters, there’s a very wholesome look, certainly to the women. People have dogs who look like themselves. [laughter] You have characters that look like you. You look like your characters! Take it well: you’re cherubic. You have big cheeks. You’re a smiley guy. Your characters are cute! They’re cheerful looking. They are fulsome; they are wholesome. Joe: Thank you! In terms of my characters looking like me, like many artists, I keep a mirror next to my drawing table and that helps with expressions and with just basic anatomy of a face. So, from the time I was a teenager, I’ve been looking at my own face, either laughing, or crying, or scrunching up my face, or screaming. I’m always there;

Dawn TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner.

I work cheap. I remember seeing photographs of different animators who would keep a mirror next to their workstations. What does a nose look like when you scream? Simple things like that. CBC: How did your assignments with Vampi come about? Joe: I’ve always loved Vampirella. In the ’90s, I had done a bunch of covers for Harris Publications when they had the rights to do the character. When Vampirella switched over to Dynamite, I did some more covers. Nick Barrucci, who was an old friend, suggested I do a crossover with Dawn and Vampirella. I had resisted doing a crossover because it always seemed like a cheap sales gimmick. But, I finally had a good idea for a Dawn and Vampirella crossover. If Dawn was going to crossover with anyone, you know Vampirella is the Queen! I said, “Okay, that’s a good match.” CBC: What was the story? Joe: Well, both Dawn and Vampirella started off as horror hostesses introducing stories, so I decided to put them in a Scheherazade type situation where they’d have to sing for their supper, and both girls have to tell a story. So, they’re captured by a demon and they have to tell stories, basically tell different stories and the demon makes it a storytelling contest between Vampirella and Dawn. It allowed me to have fun drawing them and putting them in different short stories. It was a lot of fun; I really enjoyed working on that. CBC: That’s clever. You’re taking down the forth wall and taking on the reality of the characters and their raison d’être. Kristina: you met her a long time ago. She was the first person who came up to your table and told you she’d read it; you didn’t believe her. And you’ve worked with her. How did you fall in love with her, or she with you… whichever is more important! Joe: We hit it off instantly when we met in 1990. We became friends. She was dating someone and I dating someone. I always had a crush on her, but the timing was never right. In 2008, I ran into her in San Diego because she had moved out to the West Coast. From there, everything fell into place. Marrying her was probably the smartest thing I’ve ever done. CBC: First marriage for you? Joe: Yeah, first marriage. I’d come close a couple of times, but it didn’t work out. Thank God. CBC: Was it a civil ceremony? Top: Kristina Deak-Linsner and brand-new husband, Joseph Michael Linsner at their San Diego civil ceremony in 2016. Inset above: Dawn 30 th anniversary official logo. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

Joe: Yeah, we got married in San Diego; went down to town hall. We’d be out there for the convention every year. Kristina had lived there for 12 or 13 years, so all her close friends were in San Diego. It just made sense. “All your friends are here; let’s just get married in San Diego.” So we tied the knot and then had a nice little party. It was sweet. CBC: That’s pretty cool. What are your plans for Dawn’s 30 th anniversary? Joe: I have a five-issue Dawn mini-series, which I’ve been writing for the past couple of years; that’s the big thing. I also want to put out another art book. My first art book came out in 2003 and I’m long overdue for another one. I want another action figure; I want another card set, just a ton of Dawn stuff. This is Dawn’s 30th: “I can’t believe 30 years have gone by so fast.” I remember when the Rolling Stones celebrated 25 years and that seemed like a huge milestone and here I am at 30, “Wha-? How did that happen?” CBC: Do you have a big epic story you’d like to do with Dawn that is particularly ambitious? Joe: Oh yes, everything’s been building. There is a continuing storyline. The mini-series I’m working on right now brings things full circle, where Darrian Ashoka returns to New York. Then I have another couple of stories that this leads into. So, yeah, I just don’t have enough hours in the day. I have big plans for Dawn. CBC: Is she real? Joe: She’s real in my imagination. And Kristina is my Dawn. She doesn’t look like Dawn, but she inspires me, and she makes me want to keep trying, makes me want to be a better man. CBC: Does Dawn dictate her own behavior? Are there certain things she won’t do? A criteria? What’s the backbone, the integrity of Dawn? Joe: That’s a good question. Where does Dawn come from…? Visually, she’s collaged from different female icons physically… and part of her personality comes from my mother and definitely part of her comes from Kristina, as well as every strong female voice I’ve ever encountered. They all come together in Dawn. And part of her is me. She’s definitely a reflection of my feminine side. I’m a firm believer that all of us are part male and part female, and that’s just the composition of everyone’s psyche. With Dawn, I get to explore that. She’s part Merlin… she’s someone who has that twinkle in her eye and she knows something that she’s not telling, but she’ll share little bits of information along the way. But she has to stay a couple of steps ahead of the hero to keep him going. 61

1968

1989

• Born in Flushing General Hospital, Queens, New York, on Friday, December 13th.

Self-publishes Cry For Dawn #1 (Dawn’s first appearance) and establishes Cry For Dawn Productions

1974

1990

• Gets very first Conan comic book [Conan The Barbarian #40]

1978 • Moves from one bedroom apartment in Queens to a house in Elmont, Long Island, New York. • Gets first job as paperboy

•M eets artist Kristina Deak, future wife •Q uits day job, has never worked a day job since

1992 •C ry For Dawn Productions expands and publishes five other titles

1981

1993

• Sees his favorite movie, Excalibur, for the first time

•C ry For Dawn Productions implodes after nine issues of Cry For Dawn

1984

•G ets first cover assignment from DC Comics, Justice League Quarterly #13

• JML’s father, George Linsner, dies of lung cancer

1985 • Applies for scholarship at New York’s School of Visual Arts and is among the final 100 candidates but blows interview

•G ets job airbrushing “Green Thumb” for Ziplock “Fingerman” commercial

1994 •H elps set up Sirius Entertainment •S irius Ent. publishes first color book, Drama

• Publishes Angry Christ Comics, collecting the best of his Cry For Dawn work • Sirius wins Diamond Gem Award for "Best New Publisher"

1995

1986

Publishes Dawn #1 and sells 168,000 copies

• Paints cover to high school yearbook

1996

• Graduates High School • Gets job in Auto Parts Warehouse • Sets up at first convention, Creation Thanksgiving Con, New York City.

1988

1997 • Publishes Dawn: Lucifer’s Halo first graphic novel, collecting Dawn #1–6

• Draws commercial storyboards for Swatch, Nestlé, and various others

• Sirius releases Numan-Dawn CD, music by Gary Numan

• Gets day job airbrushing ’Tony Alamo’ style jackets

• Randy Bowen releases Dawn statue

• Gets first short story published, first cover, Continüm Presents #1

1998 1999 • McFarlane Toys releases first Dawn action figure

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Justice League Quarterly TM & © DC Comics. Dawn TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner.

1987

• Nominated for two Eisner Awards, "Best Cover Artist" and "Best Special Project"

2004 •D oes first seven covers for Dark Horse’s Conan series

2006 • I mage publishes third Dawn graphic novel, Dawn: Three Tiers •D raws Wolverine and The Black Cat in Claws for Marvel Comics, written by Jimmy Palmiotti and Justin Grey

2007 • I mage publishes collection of pin-up art, Girls & Goddesses

2011

2000 • Leaves Sirius Entertainment over of non-payment of royalties • Sets up website Linsner.com

•D raws Wolverine and The Black Cat again, for Marvel's Claws 2, written by Palmiotti and Grey

2012 •M other Helen Linsner dies of a heart attack.

Dawn, Sinful Suzi TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner. Wolverine, Bat Cat, Claws TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Harley Quinn TM & © DC Comics.

2001 • Linsner.com publishes Dawn: Pin-Up Goddess • Linsner.com wins Diamond Gem Award for “Best New Publisher”

2013 • I mage publishes the one-shot, Sin Boldly, introducing Sinful Suzi and Obsidian Stone

2015 • Dynamite publishes Dawn’s first crossover, Dawn & Vampirella

2016 • Marries Kristina Deak

• Writes and draws Killraven one-shot for Marvel Knights imprint

• Draws Harley’s Little Black Book #3 for DC Comics, written by Jimmy Palmiotti and Amanda Conner (first DC work in 23 years)

2002

2017

• In the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, self-publishes I Love NY, a benefit book raising $10,000 for the Red Cross

Draws art for numerous issues of Harley Quinn for DC written by Jimmy Palmiotti and Amanda Conner

• Brings Dawn to Image Comics, publishes second graphic novel Dawn: Return of the Goddess

2018

2003 • Image publishes JML's first art book, The Art of Joseph Michael Linsner • Image publishes The Vampire’s Christmas graphic novel

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Draws Vampirella in Roses for the Dead for Dynamite, written by Kristina Deak-Linsner

2019 Celebrates Dawn’s 30th anniversary with the fourth Dawn mini-series

The statuesque Kristina Deak-Linsner is, she tells us, her husband Joe Linsner’s “go-to” model — but only when he uses such reference. “He does not always,” she explains. “I have posed for some Vampirella and Lady Rawhide covers.” As we learned in Joe’s interview, they met back when Joe had only just started his comics career, but the two hit it off and, years later, finally committed to one another in wedlock. The following Q+A, conducted by Ye Ed, took place via email. Comic Book Creator: Where you from originally and were you creative at a young age? Where did you grow up? Kristina Deak-Linsner: I was originally born in San Pablo, California, but I quickly moved to the Philadelphia area and stayed there until my early thirties. Then I moved back to California for about 15 years. I have always operated on a steady diet of being creative since as long as I can remember. I’m the kid who used to make paper birds out of her straw wrappers in the backseat and fly them along the sky visible outside the car windows as we were driving. CBC: What role did movies and TV play in your creativity, if any? Did you read as a girl and did you have favorite books, movies, etc., which may relate to your current creative work? Kristina: I watched Saturday morning cartoons, followed by afternoon horror movies! Oh my, I couldn’t get enough of them. Mostly the old Hammer House of Horror and Roger Corman/Vincent Price movies, and anything they would play on the old Dr. Shock show (in reality, portrayed by magician Joseph Zawislak), in Philadelphia. I was three when it first aired, and my older cousins would come over and we were sat down in front of the TV. I solidly had the idea in my little-girl mind, of thinking that when I grew up someday I would look like one of the Hammer glamour girls. I was an avid reader of short stories, fiction, and sci-fi. I can proudly say that all of this helped to shape me into the cultured weirdo I am today. CBC: What was your family situation and were you encouraged to be creative and did you have any artist role models as a youngster? Kristina: Growing up it was just my father, mother, and myself. Being an only child, you would think I was spoiled, but my father wasn’t having any of that nonsense. I had many artistic role models growing up, everyone from Peter Max to Debbie Harry — and even my own father. I was very fortunate in that my creativity was encouraged by both parents from an early age. CBC: When did comics come into play? Please describe your interest in 64

comics at some length, as applicable. Kristina: I recall getting Gold Key and Harvey comics at a very young age — I think three or four…? (Pink Panther, Casper, Wendy the Good Little Witch, etc.) And my first glimpse of Vampirella was on a door poster when I was five, so I obviously had to find out more about her and got a few Warren magazines. But, when I was about nine, I absolutely fell in love with Frank Thorne’s run on Red Sonja and it led me to discover her back issues and also Conan. After that, I became an avid reader of comics and horror mags, even being fortunate enough to see Marvel’s Dark Phoenix Saga unfold. I bought the first issue (of many) of Heavy Metal, which introduced me to greats like Corben and H.R. Geiger. When I was in junior high, I was fortunate enough to have an English and homeroom teacher who was the granddaughter of Mary Shelley. She wound up taking away a copy of magazine that was highlighting the upcoming Frankenstein by Bernie Wrightston (as it was prior to ’83) all because it was “distracting” me during class. She gave me the book back a few days later, only after reading through it herself and commenting positively on the Frankenstein part. Right then, I knew I was on the path to good things. [Kristina later shared via email: I was actually able to relay that story to Bernie before he died. He genuinely seemed to get a real kick out of it and brought a big smile to his face.] CBC: Were you an artist in grade school and high school? If so, were you recognized as such among classmates and was there any impact? Kristina: I believe I was an artist as soon as I could pick up anything to make marks with. My father, in his spare time between working two jobs, tried his hand at gallery shows in New York and Pennsylvania, doing mainly landscapes. I would always set up in the basement alongside him with

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a “kiddie-sized” easel he built just for me. I have very fond memories of that time. I continued this though out elementary school, thinking that drawing and painting were just things everyone could do. Then, I started noticing I was more adept at it than most of the other kids. Once, in sixth grade, I drew the report covers for 80% of the class on a project until the teacher figured out they were all by me. CBC: Were you sociable as a teenager and did you get involved in any scenes, so to speak, whether music or art or fashion? Kristina: Haha, I was very sociable, but I was also a bit of a loner. Preferring to talk to someone or no one at all, depended upon the company. I guess you could say I was “a clique of one” in high school. (This is so funny, Jon, because I compared notes with Joe on the questions you asked him and I found he had a very similar answer.) I’d always been interested in music from a very early age and I both sing and write music. It was a bit of a tug of war for me to pick one or the other to really commit myself to study. I tried to do both at the same time, but each suffered from not being my main focus. Today I’ve learned to switch gears. For instance, upon the completion of writing Vampirella: Roses for the Dead, I’ll be working on writing the lyrics for music that my guitar player friend, Ed Puljer, laid the tracks down for. Joe’s doing the cover, if we decide to go to print, but mainly we just play for sheer fun and creativity. It’s always something going on here in Linsnerland! I’d go crazy otherwise. CBC: Prior to meeting Joe, were you a regular on the convention scene in New York? Joe tells me you two first met at a convention. How did you happen to end up there? Kristina: Well, as a teen, I attended many shows in Philadelphia and some in New York. But I was going to a particular convention at the Penta Hotel, in New York City, in January, 1990. I was with a friend of mine who managed Fat Jack’s Comicrypt. He was going to get books signed for the shop and I brought along a stack of Red Sonja because I heard Frank Thorne was supposed to be attending. He never did show, but I walked around anyway. I went over to Bernie Wrightston’s table and noticed Joe was set up right next to him. I didn’t even know it was for sure him until I saw he was sitting with a single copy of Cry For Dawn #1 in front of him and our eyes met. I said: ”Hey, I read your book!” And he said, in typical Joe fashion, “No, you didn’t.” Hahaha. I then explained key pieces of the stories and art and we both laughed and talked for quite awhile. He later got me a chair to sit behind him at the table (swoon… such a gentleman) We’ve been friends ever since. Joe’s my best friend in addition to being my husband. You can’t ask for better than that. CBC: What were your aspirations after high school? Did you attend college and were there any creative projects that you recall that kept you engaged? Kristina: Honestly, I was so happy to finally be finished with high school. But I did a brief stint in college. I decided

I was better off throwing myself into the work force and I do not regret that decision. So everything kept me engaged that way. Learning to balance work and art had been a challenge. Accepting that one is an artist can be as liberating as it is overwhelming. And embracing it as I did, when I was very small, is really something of a long-term commitment. It can be an emotionally fraught and isolating experience just accepting that existence — especially in realistic terms of what one’s own financial growth potential may be. Fortunately for me, I’m able to be that brave and carefree about it since I know I’ll manage somehow no matter what. CBC: Please describe your feelings about Joe and about his work, and whether that’s changed over the years. I’m specifically interested in your opinion of what makes Joe’s artwork so appealing. Kristina: Well, first off, I think Joe’s art appeals to so

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Previous page: A pair of portraits of Kristina Deak-Linsner along with her art for Vampirella: Roses for the Dead #1 Ultimate Collectors Box. Top: Joe and Kristina. Inset left: KDL in 1997. Above: KDL sketch cover for an issue of her 2018 Vampi mini-series. 65

Above: Lovely pic of Kristina Deak-Linsner. Inset right: Vampi mini-series written by Kristina and illustrated by Joe. Below: The pair were interviewed in 2018 by Comic Shop News, which used a JML piece for which she modeled as cover.

many readers (especially females) for it’s realistic approach to the anatomy. I cannot tell you how many times that’s been mentioned at shows by both sexes. Also, his stories are often romantic and well fleshed out. Everything always has a reason for happening that later ties into the story. So I would say there is a certain flow and continuity to his comics. I have loved his work from the first time I saw it in 1989 and that hasn’t changed except to say I love it more with each passing year. Since moving in with Joe in 2011, I’ve only seen him improve and get better. CBC: Does the emphasis on the female body, any sense of objectification in the artwork, particularly as related to Joe’s work, give you any concern? That is, what do you think of pin-up art? Kristina: I have never viewed good, anatomically correct, pin-up art as being the “objectification” of women. I know that may not be too PC of me to say, but I chalk it all up to how I was raised. I grew up with my father having several Vargas pieces around and my mother is European and very much a lady, but she did not shy away from nudity. I am never “concerned” with Joe’s work because he is a constant student of anatomy (male and female) and is always improving. CBC: Please describe your artistic development, inspira-

tions and mentors, role models, etc., and how you developed your own style. Kristina: I grew up loving Frank Thorne, Berni Wrightston, Barry Smith, and Wally Wood, of course. One summer, while driving to the shore, my dad and I stopped at a flea market and I came across an entire box full of old MAD magazines and paperback reprints of all the Wood stories. I was in heaven. It changed my life and my ideas about sequential storytelling. W. M. Gaines was an underrated genius. My mentors were my dad and later my high school art teacher, Mrs. Lois Lewis (I swear that was her name). My mentors these days are literally my peers in the business now. I love looking over their art and exchanging ideas with them at shows. I think I’m still developing my own style. I believe who we are and what we have to express visually changes throughout our lives. It’s only natural that our styles should change a bit too. CBC: Please describe the development of your relationship with Joe. What’s his best attribute and what’s his worst? (Please talk about courtship and marriage, and perhaps discuss your collaborative process.) Kristina: The development of my relationship with Joe has been very natural as we have been friends for so long. Our courtship was a very long one, but it’s totally been worth the wait. His best attribute is his ability to see the world in a different way and filter it into his art. Art is a part of his being and everything he does, really. And I feel I am very much the same, so we get along perfectly. For example, when I dress for an event or even just the day, there is always some sort of ritual of choosing just the right pieces, etc. Joe is like that with everything he puts his hands on. My husband’s worst attribute? Possibly that he worries about deadlines a little too much and has some difficulty multi-tasking. I’m a Gemini and easily able to multi-task, so I help him out whenever I can. Our creative process is absolutely kismet and when we’re cooking, we’re on fire! And sometimes, when we might disagree about, say, how a panel should be drawn or how an action should go forward…? I’m interested in his suggestions as sometimes they collaboratively make the best sense. But, I’m pretty stern about it if I have a solid idea down from the get-go. Then I stick to my guns. I’m not always 100% sure of things, but, if I am (or I know what my intended vision was all along), when we both keep with it, we find it always works out. The collaborative process should always be about the two (or more) people fundamentally exchanging ideas to achieve the best possible outcome. And sometimes that is made of compromises. I absolutely love everything we’ve done together and I know if Joe wasn’t in full agreement he’d never put his name on it. I wouldn’t want him to. CBC: Please describe your achievements, what jobs you’ve held over the years, and what you’d like to one day accomplish. Kristina: I’ve held almost every type of job imaginable, from managing a retail art store to working in a print shop. But I find I am most happy these days when I can fully concentrate on my art and writing, as I do now. I’m very pleased with my time spent in the gallery scene and rest well at night knowing people hang my paintings in their home. Writing Vampirella: Roses for the Dead was a major accomplishment for me, as she was always one of my mostloved female comic characters. I’d like to continue to write for comic books and keep at making art full-time and continue to collaborate with Joe.

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This page: Examples of Kristina Deak-Linsner artwork. Clockwise, from top left, is “Frozen Charlotte,” a painting that was the final work Kristina showed her father when he was dying. She shares that he smiled when he saw it; “Ligeia’s Apparation in the Bridal Chamber;” Kristina at a comic con; three examples of her husband’s artwork for which Kristina served as a model; and Vampi herself by Kristina. By the way, KDL is the first woman to be both an artist and a writer to depict the exploits of Vampirella. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

Interview conducted by JON B. COOKE [Regular Comic Book Creator readers are aware we conducted a career-spanning chat with masterful painter Joe Jusko in our last issue, but yours truly wanted to talk with the man about his "Marvel Corner Box" line of prints/variant covers I’ve seen. These captivating images recapture with enthusiasm what made the ’60s Marvel super-heroes so appealing, yet also enhanced with the modern-day Jusko hyper-realistic rendering. Great stuff! — Y.E.]

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Comic Book Creator: Let’s talk Marvel, Joe! Tell us the story behind the corner boxes. Joe Jusko: Well, being a kid of the ’60s, the Marvel Comics, I have a real nostalgic feel for that whole period of comic art. I always loved those little corner box illustrations. I was doing various cover re-creations and commission pieces for people — ’60s covers — and I had planned to do a card set of cover re-creations of ’60s and ’70s Marvel and that never came to fruition. Somebody mentioned, at one point, “Have you ever considered recreating the corner boxes?” I had, but I had never had a real reason to do them. A collector had commissioned a couple off of me and I really enjoyed doing them. I decided I would mock them up as they would make really cool prints. I decided I’d do a whole series, starting with the ’60s corner boxes drawings and then I would mock them up as actual corner boxes and that’s actually how it came about. CBC: Was it an original idea? Had you heard of anyone else doing this before? Joe: No! That was the thing. When a friend commissioned a couple, I thought it was something I could definitely make mine being as how it would be the first time it being done. I was actually surprised that the idea had never been broached before. CBC: I remember talking with you and seeing them all spread out on a table and being absolutely blown away. Then, when I saw you again, you had even more. How many did you start with? Joe: My intention was to start with the ’60s boxes because those were the ones I grew up with and was the most fond of. By the time I got into the ’70s and they expanded the line, Marvel wasn’t using the corner ‘boxes’ anymore. If you remember, they had a big circle behind them and the figures didn’t quite fit into a box anymore. As far as prints, the actual ’60s boxes were the perfect size and proportion to

turn into prints. My original intent was to do all the ’60s boxes: Spider-Man, Cap, Hulk… all the major characters first; maybe a half-dozen. I used them as a cover photo on my Facebook page. People started to notice them. [Marvel publisher] Joe Quesada commented on them. I made prints of them. I mocked them all up as actual corner box prints, which was actually a bit of a pain because unless you have the actual comic to scan to get the corner box from, you have to be creative as to how you got what you needed. What I was doing was, I had the Marvel calendars that Asgard Press put out, and a bunch of my old comic collection, so as I was doing the boxes, I was trying to match whatever corner, whatever number issue matched whatever background color I picked. If you remember on the old corner boxes, the Marvel logo always matched what color that was behind the figure, so I had to make sure the logo matched color-wise and that meant having a specific issue of the comic. When I didn’t have it, that meant I had to cobble together a bunch of different boxes in Photoshop until I got what I needed. If I had a box from one of the Asgard calendars or one of the comics I had that matched the background color I chose, that was fine, but other times, I had to scan one corner box from one book, I had to adjust the color in Photoshop and would go and cobble together numbers from other corner boxes and patch them altogether. So, it was a bit of a pain sometimes to get the actual corner box correlation correct. It was a lot of work to “Frankenstein” them together. I had a banner of several of them on my Facebook page. I got an email from Marvel one day, “We saw something on your Facebook page that interested us and we’d like to talk to you about it.” [Jon chuckles] Uh, oh! Here we go! But I heard from Marvel and found out that they absolutely loved them! They loved the idea. They asked me to do an entire cover series for them because they were doing the whole retro Marvel thing a couple of years ago. I said, “Yeah, that sounds great!” That’s how they came about. I did them mainly as a vanity project for myself and then Marvel took notice of it and decided to run with it, which was really flattering. CBC: So, Joe Quesada emailed you and said, “Hey, this is cool”? Joe: Joe had commented on them on my Facebook page. So, I knew the guys from Marvel were seeing them, so I knew they thought they were cool. Then I got the inquiry from someone else in Marketing that does licensing and variant covers at Marvel. CBC: That’s pretty generous of Marvel! Joe: Yes, it is! I was happy that they kept me on. It doesn’t often work out this well. I was flattered that they loved what I was doing and asked me to do the rest. So then I segued COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

from doing the ’60s boxes to later characters, because they wanted some contemporary characters they were promoting. So I ended up doing characters who didn’t originally have corner boxes, like Thanos, the new Captain Marvel, and a bunch of others. They gave me creative freedom and really trusted me because they’d seen what I was doing, which I thought was great. I got a list of characters, and it was pretty much left up to me to do those covers however I wished. What I was trying to do to maintain the feel of those old corner boxes, I was thinking about who the most iconic artist on each character had been. Obviously, if I’m going to do Thanos, I think of Jim Starlin’s Thanos. Instantly, I knew the one I wanted to do was a splash page from one of Jim’s Captain Marvel, #26 or #27, which would make a perfect corner box. I was referencing the most iconic artist for each character and doing the whole after-Starlin, after-Buscema, as is appropriate, for the homage pieces that were being done. It was a lot of fun to try to keep the feel of the original artist while still painting it in my style. CBC: Do people collect them? Joe: Yup. The prints and covers are very popular. The covers were variants and fairly hard to get for some people. They have proven to be incredibly popular and I hope Marvel decides to do a 70

second run because there are a lot I still want to do. CBC: Did you actually research every single Marvel title that had a corner box? Joe: No! Obviously I wanted to. I didn’t do the Fantastic Four because they were “off the table” at Marvel at the time, although now they’re back. Although I’m really busy with the Edgar Rice Burroughs covers right now, when I do pick these up again, the first four I want to do are the Fantastic Four. If you remember they would alternate the main figure from issue to issue on the FF books, so each character had the box at one point, with the other three’s heads around it, so I’ll end up doing that. Plus, I want to do Sgt. Fury, Ghost Rider, the original green-and-white Captain Marvel… There are a ton I’d like to do from the ’60s that haven’t been done. After I get through all the ’60s boxes, I’ll move on to the ’70s. There were so many, I could keep doing this forever. I really enjoy it because of the nostalgic factor for me. It brings me back to being 12 years old again! CBC: Me, too! That was exactly my question about the Fantastic Four. I do remember they alternated characters for the corner boxes. Joe: Yeah. There were certain books that really wouldn’t make a good corner box as far as individual appeal. There were The X-Men and The Avengers that were basically head-shots. There wasn’t much to do with them. That’s why, for the Avengers one, I used the Vision from around issue #93 or #94, when they switched to just the one figure in the corner. They were basically head-shots before that. There is nothing really artistically appealing about just a box of head-shots. #20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

CBC: Did you do Rawhide Kid yet? Joe: I want to do those eventually. If there was a corner box on ’60s Marvel book, I want to do a painting of it. I kind of got waylaid when Marvel wanted to do more contemporary characters and then I started doing other projects. Being as how these were a vanity project, they get pushed to the side when actual work comes in. CBC: They’re awesome. You gave me the Kirby Captain America. It’s just great! Joe: The thing I was doing, and it was really important to me: If you want to do these — there are a lot of guys who do re-creations; they alter the piece completely and there’s no real nostalgic connection to the original piece. I wanted these to be as reminiscent of the actual original corner box as possible. Certain artists are easy to do, guys like Buscema and Romita, who draw realistically and the proportions are pretty dead on. If you work within the silhouette of the figure, sort of trace off the silhouette of the figure, you can adjust the anatomy inside however you want. As long as the silhouette is the same silhouette that was on the corner box, you eye instantly makes COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

that nostalgic connection. Kirby was a little bit more difficult because Kirby’s stuff is a little extreme as far as proportions go… CBC: Right. Joe: I noticed… I tried as much as possible. I kept the proportions of Captain America as much as possible so that box feels like a Kirby piece. The same with the Incredible Hulk. I made a couple of adjustments anatomically to it, but basically that silhouette is the same silhouette. Even the Iron Man, even though I corrected the anatomy a little bit. If you remember the Iron Man piece, the head — it looks like his neck is broken on that Iron Man figure, the way his head is tilted a little bit. I tried to fix it and it just didn’t look right unless you kept it just the way Kirby did it. I kept his head, as awkward as it is. You just don’t notice it because you immediately flash back to the Kirby piece. I was careful to try and maintain the feel of the original artists. CBC: I love you did both the Sub-Mariner in his original costume and then his briefly-used early 1970s costume. Joe: The ’70s costume was a commission request 71

Right: Kubert School alumni smile for the camera at Bill Golliher’s “tacky X-mas party” in 1991. On left, top to bottom, Scott McRae, Katie McRae, Patrick Brosseau, and Chris LaForce. On right, from top to bottom, Dan Parent, Kathy Parent, and Donna Block-Benjamin. Below: During his 1980s enrollment at the Kubert School, Dan Parent was drawn to co-creator Joe Staton’s charming E-Man revival at First Comics.

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Thanos, Luke Cage, Hero for Hire, Captain Marvel TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Conan TM & © Conan Properties International, LLP.

from somebody. I had already done the original Buscema box. They were one-offs. I didn’t want to do another one. He really liked the Buscema piece. He asked me if I would do that Buscema figure in the black costume. I had never been a real fan of that suit, but it was fun to paint. CBC: It works. It’s neat. It’s the exact same pose? Joe: It’s the same figure with a different background and the black suit. CBC: It’d be great to see all these in a book. Joe: Eventually, I’d like to do that. I’d like to go back and do as many of the ’60s boxes as I can and then do a book or even a yearly calendar would be really cool. CBC: I really liked that Steranko Nick Fury you did, too. Joe: Yeah, that was a lot of fun. Most of the corner box pieces were clip art from the actual book. The Spider-Man piece is from the cover of Amazing Spider-Man Annual #2. The Nick Fury piece is from the splash page inside a Strange Tales [#166]. Most of those are pick-up art from somewhere else. There was a couple that weren’t. The Buscema Sub-Mariner I’d never seen anywhere else except the corner boxes, so that had to be drawn specifically from the corner boxes. I know John’s work inside and out because I grew up with his work, and that piece has never been anywhere else besides the corner box. There are a couple of times I drew pieces specifically for the boxes, but most of them were pick-up art from either old covers or interiors. Being the geek that I was from reading these as a kid, I knew exactly where each piece originally came from, which was pretty funny. So, I was able to look up better quality images of those pieces than the corner boxes when it came time to do them.

CBC: The Conan… was that clip or did you specifically draw that? Joe: Oh, I forgot about that one! The Conan piece was the corner box at one point. That’s actually the first one I ever did and did it years before I did the ’60s boxes because I did it as a commission piece for somebody. I said to myself, “It was a corner box. That would make a pretty good print it I mocked it up as a corner box.” That was the first one I ever did as a corner box. That had to be done close to ten years ago. That’s what people ask me. People see that print and ask, “Have you ever thought of doing the other corner boxes?” And I had, but never had a reason to until my friend commissioned a few pieces off of me, so I ran with it. CBC: Was that Buscema Conan piece specifically done for an icon on the cover? Joe: That was never anywhere else except in the corner box. That was a specific corner box illustration. When he took over the book with issue #25; that became the corner box illo. CBC: Do you have a favorite? Joe: I like the Hulk; I like Spider-Man; I like the Subby because I’m a big Buscema guy. I’m really happy with that one. The Subby is a bit of an anomaly because it had a full background to it and the others ones didn’t. The others basically had colors in the background. Instead of becoming really repetitive, I ended up adding a background. Another one I really like was Guardians of the Galaxy one that I did. That was a cover I had to make up because they never had a cover. I really liked the old Byrne version of Star-Lord, so I asked them if could do the classic version. In keeping with the whole retro feel, instead of doing the current versions of Groot, Star-Lord, and Rocket Raccoon, I asked if I could do their original incarnations on the cover. They said, “Yeah, go for it.” That piece I really liked. It has the old Kirby version of the big, giant Groot; Byrne’s version of Star-Lord; and Mignola’s version of Rocket Raccoon. CBC: I think the strongest one for me — and I think probably because he’s stationary — is the Ditko figure from the cover of Amazing Spider-Man Annual #2. The lighting is awesome. Joe: Thank you. I thought the Thor one worked out really well. It’s hard to pick because they were all fun to do for different reasons. There are a bunch of them. I actually like ones I didn’t think I was going to like, such as Spider-Gwen. I think they all worked out really well and I achieved what I wanted to achieve with them, but I really do want to go back to my original intent and do all the ’60s boxes. CBC: I just can’t get over them. I think they’re just awesome. It’s exactly that. It’s nostalgic and it’s got your take on the characters. Joe: Thanks! As I mentioned, it was really important for me not to lose the feel of the original figures. My mission for myself when I started those was to not deviate from what they looked like and do an entirely new interpretation. I wanted to do those boxes and flesh them out as paintings. People seemed to really respond to them. Frankly, I was shocked! CBC: It’s obvious it’s extremely well done, but they’re also obviously loves the stuff. I think that’s it. You can look and say, “Wow! It’s extremely accomplished.” It’s full of nostalgia and it’s got soul to it. It works, Joe. Joe: Thanks, Jon. That means a lot.

LY EE MA N JO E W HA TI F…

HAD LIVED? [EDITOR’S NOTE: There’s a cartoon depiction of three drunken artists, a drawing presumably by Marie Severin done in the mid-’50s. It shows Bill Everett and her brother John, each brandishing a liquor bottle and both holding up a guy named Joe, likely Joe Maneely, who is in such a state of inebriation that his feet are dragging behind him. It’s funny enough. At the time, those three legendary artists were mainstays in the Atlas Comics bullpen, all toiling hard for editor Stan Lee and, as John later related, “[W]hen we’d get paid, we’d go out and drink a lot.” But, in the wee hours of June 7, 1958, on his return home after a Friday night carousing with John and (we assume) Everett, things took a tragic turn when Maneely fell to his death from a New Jersey commuter train. He was only 32 years old. This happened before Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were Stan Lee’s fair-haired boys, just prior to the birth of a new start for Atlas, when it would be renamed Marvel Comics and go on to phenomenal success. Before that fateful spring morning, Maneely, a lightning-fast and extraordinary artist, was Lee’s go-to guy. Thus, given the man’s age, talent, and dedication, it’s nearly impossible not to speculate what would have been Joe Maneely’s future starting at the dawn of the Marvel Age. The Atlas Comics expert and co-author of The Secret History of Marvel Comics, Dr. Michael J. Vassallo, makes a learned attempt for us to envision what might have been, what could have been, and maybe, just maybe, what should have been. — Ye Ed.]

by Dr. Michael J. VassalLo 74

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Ask anyone who reads and collects comic books today who was Joe Maneely and you’ll get a blank stare. Ask the question to someone with a marginal knowledge about comic book history and you may get a glimmer of recognition pertaining to Marvel’s old Black Knight series. That’s about it and that alone is due to the fact that Marvel reprinted some of those stories in the late 1960s and again in a recent Marvel Masterworks volume. What most people don’t realize is that with the stars aligned a little differently 61 years ago, the birth of the Marvel Universe as we know it may have been vastly different, or may not have occurred at all. Joe Maneely was Stan Lee’s star artist for most of the decade of the 1950s, during what is known as the Atlas period of Marvel Comics history. Atlas, a name derived from publisher Martin Goodman’s distribution company and easily identified by a small globe on the cover, was by far the industry leader in quantity of titles and issues published in the first three-quarters of the decade. With Lee as editor-in-chief, every imaginable type of comic book was published, flooding the market with score after score of books utilizing an industry-wide stable of freelancers, many of them comic book royalty. A little history first: By 1950, Timely’s hero titles, a major force during the boom years of World War II, were defunct. The early and middle part of decade of the 1940s saw the proliferation of hero titles like Marvel Mystery Comics, Captain America, Human Torch, Sub-Mariner, and others, as well as humor books (both funny

animal and “teen” type) saturating the stands. Teen titles eventually eclipsed the funny animal books and, by about 1946, even overtook the super-hero titles in sales and popularity. By 1947, with the ever-declining super-hero sales handwriting on the wall, Timely expanded into other genres. Crime was first, followed by Westerns, romance, and, by 1949, horror. There was a last attempt in 1948 to jump-start super-heroes again with the quick introduction of several new titles like Namora, Sun Girl, The Witness, Venus and Blackstone, but all except the ever-adaptable Venus were gone quickly. Creator-wise, Timely originally bought their features from the Lloyd Jacquet shop, Funnies Inc., (and would continue to get their “Human Torch” and “Sub-Mariner” features from there until the end of the war). Material was also bought from the Chesler shop and freelancers, but immediately Martin Goodman tried to wean shop-work away by starting an in-house staff. Simon and Kirby were the first two, followed by Syd Shores, Stan Lee, Don Rico, Mike Sekowsky, George Klein, Bill King, Allen Bellman, and ultimately scores of others throughout the decade. By mid-1942, two distinct bullpens were operating, one helping produce the myriad super-hero stories (self-referred to as “adventure artists”), the other turning out the humor titles (self-referred to as the “animators”). When Stan Lee went into the service in November, 1942, former Max Fleischer animation artist Vince Fago assumed the editor-in-chief mantle and this coincided with the aforementioned rise in humor titles as Fago himself drew numerous funny animal features. The initial humor foray began in mid-1942 and included Comedy Comics , Joker Comics, Krazy Komics and Terrytoon, the latter licensed from the Walt Terry Studio. Fago’s humor staff consisted of Chad Grothkopf, Dave Berg, Ernie Hart, Al Jaffee, Ed Winiarski, George Klein , Jim Mooney, Moe Worth, Mike Sekowsky, David Gantz, and others. Basil Wolverton freelanced long distance from Washington state. Private Stan Lee even continued to send in humor scripts from where he was stationed state-side, in North Carolina and Astoria, New York. Following the war, as sales peaked and slipped, the years would chug along as Timely churned out titles and features by the carload with an ever-changing bullpen staff and cache of freelancers, marching into new genres that the entire industry was similarly heading. Into this milieu, Joe Maneely stepped in late 1949. Maneely was born February 18, 1926, in Pennsylvania, and he studied at Philadelphia’s Hussian School of Art. A graduate of the The Philadelphia Bulletin’s advertising art department, he then served three years as a specialist in visual aids for the U.S. Navy and upon discharge began his comic book career at Street and Smith, in 1948, on books like Red Dragon, Ghost Breakers, The Shadow, Supersnipe and Top Secrets, at the age of 22. Features at Street and Smith included “Butterfingers,” “Red Dragon,” “Dr. Savant,” “Django Jinks Ghost Chaser,” “Nick Carter,” “Public Defender Roger Kilgore,” “Supersnipe,” “Russell Swann,” “Tao Anwar,” “Mario Nette,” and “Ulysses Q. Wacky.” According to Ron Goulart, at Street and Smith, Maneely was very possibly influenced by noted pulp illustrator Edd Cartier, who did a brief feature or two coinciding with Maneely’s tenure there, particularly in developing Maneely’s distinctive inking technique. In addition to Street and Smith, Maneely briefly dabbled at Hillman (in Airboy), Pflaum (Treasure Chest), Ziff-Davis, Cross Publications, and Avon, before settling in at Stan Lee’s nascent Atlas sometime in 1949. Maneely joined the Timely staff at a time when Martin Goodman expanded his line in what is known as the “romance and Western glut”. A deluge of Western titles appeared out of nowhere, but even more prevalent was the glut of romance titles, a plenitude that was actually seen industry-wide. The demand for story art was at an all-time high. Some of Maneely’s first work appeared to be back-

grounds and new splash panel art updating Timely bullpen inventory stories in 1950. Some examples of splash panel art: the Gene Colan-pencilled story “Storm In My Heart,” from Best Love #36 [Apr. ’50] and “I Took A Dive,” from True Adventures #3 [May ’50]. Both utilize Maneely’s art in the splash panel only, and he then quickly distinguished himself as a top-notch Western artist with beautiful renderings of Whip Wilson; Kid Colt Outlaw; Black Rider; Red Larabee, the Gunhawk; and The Texas Kid. Using a very detailed, intricately ornate inking style, these early Western stories are some of my favorite Maneely artwork of all time and real masterpieces of Western comic art. At some point in late 1949, Goodman closed down his bullpen and all the artists, except for a possible handful on staff used for production, went freelance. It becomes immediately obvious how fast a penciller Joe was because his art began to appear in scores of horror and war titles as the decade progresses. You can find his artwork in just about every title that Atlas published; hard-hitting, gritty Korean War stories in the war titles like War Comics, Battle and Man Comics, gruesomely eerie horror stories in Marvel Tales, Astonishing and Strange Tales, and action-packed crime stories in Police Action, All-True Crime

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Previous page: Joe Maneely from when he was in the U.S. Navy, as well as a detail from the cover of the first issue of his signature book, Black Knight [May 1955]. This page: Joe also drew the cover for Yellow Claw #1 [Oct. 1956].

NOTE

Working in tandem with the artist’s family, the good Dr. Vassallo has long been at work on a detailed biography of the great Joe Maneely, so keep on the lookout. A precursor of this article was once archived at the now defunct Comicartville website, entitled “What If? Joe Maneely, Marvel’s Forgotten Star.”

corpses, Maneely was equally up to the task. Look for two Maneely classic covers in the title Astonishing. #32 [Apr. ’54) has one of Maneely’s best, the “melting eyeballs” cover. Number 34 [Aug. ’54] has possibly the greatest guillotine cover in comic history! A very large image of a terrified man with his head on the block, at the moment of execution! Humor and parody were another Maneely strong point. He drew hilarious stories in the Atlas MAD-style comic satire magazines Crazy, Riot, and Wild, the latter of which featured some hilarious covers by Timely Golden Age great Carl Burgos. Several of these stories were written by Maneely’s childhood friend from Philly, Clayton Martin. Then, in 1955, Stan Lee launched a MAD magazine clone called Snafu. Lasting only 3 issues, it had a staff consisting of Lee, Maneely, Everett, siblings John and Marie Severin, Russ Heath, and Howie Post. Maneely, by far, did the bulk of the art on the trio of issues. Snafu is best remembered today for the introduction of Marvel’s long running joke mascot Irving Forbush, who Lee re-introduced 14 years later in Not Brand Echh, in 1967. Forbush was patterned after Gaines’ Alfred E. Neuman of MAD. When Martin Goodman made the decision to give super-heroes another try in late 1953, the Human Torch, Captain America, and the Sub-Mariner were brought back. Maneely contributed by drawing a handful of Sub-Mariner covers, the “only” instances of Joe drawing any Timely heroes. As the decade progressed, Joe continued to excel in his main forte, Westerns. Drawing features and covers for just about every Western title Atlas published, Lee would use Maneely to kick-off almost every new Western character they’d try. One of the artist’s greatest and well-known was The Ringo Kid. He drew the covers and all stories to the first five issues and continued the covers (with few exceptions) to the end, #21. Maneely would turn the art chores over to John Severin and then Fred Kida before returning to draw the last five issues himself. Concurrently, he introduced Wyatt Earp, in late 1955, and was the main cover artist for the first few issues. Wyatt Earp later became a classic feature for Dick Ayers. Maneely introduced the comic world to the foreign intrigue of The Yellow Claw, in 1956, with a script by EC Comics great Al Feldstein. It would prove to be the only script Feldstein ever did for Marvel. Jack Kirby would then

and Justice Comics. When Atlas tried their hand at space-opera, Joe drew the first three issues of Speed Carter Spaceman along with the covers to #5 and 6. Editor-in-chief Stan Lee loved Maneely’s work. Lee’s byline appeared on more of the artist’s stories than any other. On a whim, Stan turned the horror title Suspense into an E.C. horror copycat title, adding a letter page (“Suspense Sanctuary”) and editorial comments portending his future “Bullpen Bulletins.” In the final issue, #29 [Apr. ’53], there is a satirical story, “The Raving Maniac,” written by Stan Lee and drawn by Joe Maneely. This story is very significant as it was a parody of the oppressive complaints being lodged at the comic industry by pro-Wertham forces. Seduction of the Innocent had been released that year and targeted horror and crime comics for their allegedly violent, child-warping content. The story depicts Lee himself as an editor of a comic book company where a raving maniac storms into the office complaining about the terrible content of the horror comics. The editor then rants back at the man stating that, one, nobody’s forcing him to read them, two, this is not a dictatorship where people tell you what to read or can’t read, and three, these books are merely an escape from a frightening world with real-life perils. At the end, the editor goes home and tells his daughter a bedtime story, “about a raving little man with nothing more important on his mind than running into an editor’s office to complain about some magazines…” Considering what was on the horizon, it is a very insightful and foreshadowing tale beautifully rendered by Maneely. With Suspense cancelled, Lee continued the momentum with another title, the prototypical Atlas pre-code horror title, Menace. That title was actually a tour de force for the artistic wizardry of the great William Blake Everett, legendary creator of Prince Namor, the Sub-Mariner. Bill Everett was a master of comic art and, if ever there was an Atlas co-star, it was he. Everett drew the gorgeously gruesome covers and had one story in each of the first six issues of this title, every story written by Lee. Maneely had six stories himself in the title, in #3, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9. Maneely and Everett were Atlas’ main horror cover artists during the peak pre-code years of 1953–54. While Everett excelled at depicting rotting skeletons and Top left: Inside back cover original art from Cracked #4 [Sept. ’58], drawn by Joe Maneely. The listing at the Heritage auction website notes that the bottom left face was “pasted over with a ‘more funny’ face for publication.” Right: Particularly gruesome and delightfully horrific Maneely cover art graces Astonishing #30 [Feb. 1954]. 76

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take it over and change the direction of the feature to one taking a more science-fiction angle. Bible Tales For Young Folks, World’s Greatest Songs, Jann of the Jungle, you name it, from the familiar to the esoteric, Joe Maneely drew stories or covers. Though it was the short five-issue run experiment called Black Knight for which the artist would be most remembered. Following the institution of the Comics Code (whose stamp of approval would start appearing on March 1955 cover-dated titles), Atlas entered into a period of expansion, adding title after title to the schedule. At this time Stan Lee must have decided to simply try something new, influenced by a litany of recent film releases, MGM’s Knights of the Round Table, 20th Century Fox’s Prince Valiant, Warner Brothers’ King Richard and the Crusaders, Universal’s The Black Shield of Falworth, and finally… (wait for it)… Columbia Pictures’ The Black Knight. Black Knight #1 appeared cover-dated May 1955 and it was immediately obvious Maneely had a keen enthusiasm for this material. The artwork reflected fine detail and the inking possessed a lush woodcut feel, perfect for the medieval period of the stories. Historian Robert Jennings has called this work “romantic realism… with human figures moving against a panorama of medieval splendor.” Maneely drew all five covers and handled all story art, including fillers, in the first three issues. Stan Lee wrote the Black Knight stories in only the first issue. Following Maneely, artwork in this title was first handled by Fred Kida in #4 (with a John Romita filler) and then Syd Shores inked by Chris Rule in #5. Surprisingly, #5 [Apr. ’56] appeared seven months after #4 [Nov. ’55], thus sales must have been flat as #5 was the final issue. I once asked Stan Lee why Maneely was taken off of Black Knight after three issues and his answer was: “Because I needed him somewhere else,” proving my notion that Maneely was the go-to artist to launch many or most of the new Atlas character features. Editor Lee took full advantage of Maneely’s speed and his artwork continued to be everywhere. He drew scores of post-code covers and stories in war titles including Navy Combat, Battleground, Marines in Battle and Combat Kelly, in Westerns including Gunsmoke Western; Matt Slade, Gunfighter; the aforementioned Wyatt Earp; and Ringo Kid; and in fantasy titles including Spellbound, World of Fantasy, World of Mystery, World of Suspense, Strange Stories of Suspense, and Strange Tales of the Unusual. His art, though, began to take on a less-detailed appearance, as obvious artistic shortcuts were begun to be taken to accommodate the speed and sheer volume of pages he was drawing. Comic book legend Jim Steranko, a huge Joe Maneely admirer, describes Maneely’s techniques this way: “I can’t think of a single instance of anyone inking Maneely. Here’s why: at the incredible speed he worked, he couldn’t have done finished pencils, just breakdowns. Then, knowing exactly what he was looking for in the finish, and being a superb draftsman, he drew with the pen and brush! This is why Maneely was so fast and why no one else inked him — they couldn’t work over his breakdowns.” As 1956 turned to 1957, Atlas was still leading the industry with almost 65+ concurrent titles flooding the stands. Maneely, working again with Lee, tried to do his best imitation of Hank Ketcham’s hugely-popular Dennis the Menace by introducing Melvin the Monster #1, in mid-1956. There was a difference, though. While Dennis was a mischievous, lovable scamp, Melvin was pure terror! When sales soured, This page: Joe Maneely was effective with his Western work, with a knack for the genre trappings of the four-color shoot-’em-ups, though the artist seemed to manifest enthusiasm for just about any job assigned to him, whether humor, jungle, war, horror, science fiction, espionage, medieval, and even Dennis the Menace knockoffs. Top right is the original art of a Kid Colt Outlaw #53 [Oct. 1955] splash page. At bottom, left to right, are the first and last issues of Matt Slade, Gunfighter, #1 [May ’56] and #4 [Nov. ’56]. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

the book was revamped with a name change to Dexter the Demon, and later he appeared in Cartoon Kids. These were the first “kiddie” humor books tried at Timely/Atlas since 1949, an attempt that earlier produced Little Aspirin, Little Lenny, and Little Lizzy, as well as “kiddie” versions of Willie (Li’l Willie), Lana (Little Lana), and Tessie the Typist (Tiny Tessie). Unbeknownst to Maneely and Lee though, trouble lay ahead. In 1956, publisher Goodman was convinced by his

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This page: Yes, Yellow Claw, with its dispicable renditions of Asians, is a blatantly racist artifact of Atlas in the 1950s, but it sure did feature some lovely Joe Maneely artwork. This page from #1 [Oct. ’56] is a fine example of Joe’s marvelous razor thin-lined backgrounds.

business manager, Monroe Froehlich, Jr., to give up self-distribution and switch from his own Atlas News Company to a national distributer, the venerable American News Company. ANC was the largest and most influential in the nation, a company hailing back to 1864, when it distributed the immensely popular Beadle Dime Stories. They would later buy the Union News Company, a railway newsstand network, and numerous companies, holdings which all added to its wide reach and influence. ANC took over on Nov. 1, 1956, as Goodman was ramping up his comic book line. While the Comics Code killed the output of many comic book companies, driving most out of business, Goodman kept expanding until, by early 1957, he had almost 85 different comic book titles on the newsstands. The Atlas globe on the cover, first as a distribution mark, was now only a brand. Yet Goodman was unaware that ANC’s wholesale periodical division was hemorrhaging money with clients leaving in droves just as the comic book publisher was signing on. In April, 1957, it all came to a head as ANC’s largest client, Dell Publishing, pulled out (and subsequently sued ANC for restraint of trade). As more clients then pulled out, on May 17, 1957, the American News Company closed down its wholesale periodical division for good. So it was that six months after assuming distribution of Goodman’s line, ANC ceased operations and the comics company was left high and dry. A massive implosion and wave of cancellations ensued across his publishing line. His last few remaining pulps were immediately jettisoned, but it was the comic-book line that took the full brunt. It took a few months but Goodman was finally able to secure distribution with National Comics Publications’ Independent News Company (IND). (Ironically, National was an industry leader with its comics line — better known as DC Comics — thus Atlas distribution was under rival DC’s control.) From 85 titles, the line was pared down to 16 bi-monthlies of eight titles per month, and the entire staff was laid off, with the exception of Stan Lee. Over 200 freelancers were left stranded scrambling for work with National or wherever they could find it, leading to

many long-time artists leaving the business forever. At the time of the implosion, in late April, Maneely was as busy as ever and mostly drawing Westerns, war covers and stories, and kiddie books, like Dippy Duck [Oct. ’57], which has the distinction of being the last issue to ever sport the Atlas globe on the cover (but was on the stands with the Sept. ’57 cover-dated issues). With his main source of income practically vanished, Maneely secured work at Charlton, Cracked magazine (#1–5) and Loco (another MAD imitation). He also picked up work at National, with assignments for House of Mystery, House of Secrets, Tales of the Unexpected, and Gang Busters. The work for National was just beautiful, harkening back to the lush, finely-detailed art of the earlier 1950 Black Rider. With more time to spend on the rendering, Maneely was definitely trying to impress editors there, specifically Murray Boltinoff. Also, after the implosion, Joe was again working with Stan Lee on the syndicated newspaper strip Mrs. Lyons’ Cubs. Released by the Chicago Sun-Times Syndicate, the strip — capitalizing on the Cub Scout craze then sweeping suburbia — appeared on Feb. 10, 1958. Back at the company once known as Atlas — with the globe gone, calling them Atlas books is technically incorrect — the stories appearing in the bi-monthly post-implosion books were inventory stockpiled from late 1956 and early 1957. When the inventory ran out, Lee began buying new story art, starting with the teen books, then the Westerns. Stan began to now write all the line’s character features himself — Millie the Model (with Dan DeCarlo), Patsy Walker (with Al Hartley), Two-Gun Kid (with Joe Maneely), Kid Colt Outlaw (with Jack Keller), and Wyatt Earp (with Dick Ayers). Maneely, whose covers never stopped appearing throughout the implosion, took over the Two-Gun Kid feature cover-dated Feb. 1958 after Chuck Miller’s inventory ran out, and would carry it right up through cover date Oct. 1958. Joe must have been pretty busy as June 1958 dawned. Still doing some work for Lee on post-implosion comics, drawing a daily syndicated strip, trying to impress National’s editors and getting his foot into the humor magazine field with Cracked, with the possibility of MAD magazine work looming on the horizon. No one could have anticipated the tragedy that was to come. On June 7, 1958, after a late after-hours session socializing with fellow artist John Severin and others, Joe Maneely headed home by train to New Jersey but never arrived. What actually happened will probably never be known but he apparently fell between the cars and was killed instantly. He was only 32 years old and left a devastated wife and three young daughters. This would seem to be the end of our story. But there are additional things to consider. Maneely’s last story art for Stan Lee appeared in Two-Gun Kid #45 [Dec. ’58], the splash page to “The Revenge of Roaring Bear,” which sported the job number “T-67.” The remainder of the story was finished by Jack Davis. This job number is important to us because it signifies that the story was penned at the dawn of what we call the “pre-hero” era of Marvel Comics. With Maneely gone, Lee frantically called back some freelancers, namely Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, and Don Heck, to work on a pile of inventory science-fiction scripts from 1957 and the company began a new direction with the introduction of fantasy titles with a slant different from the previously seen bland post-Code titles. Updating the inventoried scripts into initially innovative sci-fi themes and then later B-movie inspired monster stories, Kirby, Ditko, and Heck set a new and exciting tone starting in the new title Strange Worlds and continuing in the already

running World of Fantasy. Two new titles, Tales To Astonish and Tales of Suspense, were then added to the continuing Strange Tales and the revived Journey Into Mystery. Kirby and Ditko were joined by Joe Sinnott, Paul Reinman, Dick Ayers, John Forte, and brief appearances were made by Al Williamson, Russ Heath, John Buscema, Jack Davis, and Matt Baker. Former Timely “teen” and Hearst fashion artist Chris Rule inked Kirby on these earliest stories. The debut tales in both titles above have job numbers starting with the letter “T,” and the first “T” fantasy story was “I Discovered The Secret Of The Flying Saucers,” T-76, by Kirby and Rule. These fantasy and monster stories would lay the creative groundwork that would ultimately give birth to the “Marvel Age of Comics,” in 1961. With Maneely’s last story, T-67, a mere nine digits from Kirby’s first, we see that Maneely died at practically the “exact” instant the pre-hero era was starting. But did Joe’s death cause him to miss the pre-hero era or did his death actually “cause” it? With this

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This page: Joe Maneely is likely best-recalled for his lovely work in Black Knight where the artist seemed to revel in depicting the age of chivalry. At top is his cover for #1 [May ’55] and, below, his cover for #3 [Sept. ’55]. Inset left is a detail from Maneely’s cover for Mystic #7 [Mar. ’52].

Mrs. Lyon’s Cubs TM & © the respective copyright holder. Western Gunfighters, Kid Colt Outlaw TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

This page: With comic work slowing to a crawl, Joe Maneely joined with Stan Lee to produce a syndicated newspaper comic strip, Mrs. Lyon’s Cubs, which capitalized on the Cub Scout craze of the day. At top is the strip that ran the same day as the artist’s death, June 7, 1958. Above is a promotional pic. Doc V., this feature’s author, was a 1970s comics fans who discovered Joe’s work through Marvel reprint titles, which included Western Gunfighters #20 [Jan. 1974]. Next page: Original art for Black Knight #5 [Apr. ’56].

question in mind, we can speculate what might have happened had Joe Maneely lived. In one scenario, with the new direction the company was taking, Joe would have been given sci-fi scripts. We already see what they would have been like based on his concurrent work over in the National sci-fi and mystery books. With Maneely and Kirby dominating the books, both lightning-fast pencilers, Steve Ditko might have been dropped down a tier and others, like Reinman, Ayers, Heck, or Sinnott, may have been pushed even further down or even out. What would have happened when mid-1961 rolled around? In this scenario, the Marvel Age would still have been launched by Lee and Kirby’s Fantastic Four, but what next? Would the The Hulk have arisen the same way? Possibly, but what about Spider-Man? If Ditko never had the chance to spread his wings under all those fantasy vignettes, would the Spider-Man script have gone to him after Lee removed Kirby from the feature following Ditko’s recognition of its similarity to The Fly, Kirby’s prior co-creation at Archie Publications? I

like to envision Joe Maneely being used as a penciler as his speed would have allowed him to churn out super-hero stories almost overnight. Would Maneely eventually have gotten an inker to save even more time? (My guess is, no, as Maneely penciled in near stick figures and then drew in ink). Would he have drawn features launched by Kirby, like Iron Man or Thor? And what wonderful covers there would have been! Maneely’s cover design sense was fabulous. These are questions that we’ll just never know the answer, but the results would have been great, I have no doubt. The upshot is that Maneely becomes one of Stan’s top artists of the Marvel Age of Comics, as capable as his 1950s contemporaries at Atlas, John Romita, and Gene Colan. In a second scenario, there’s no reason to even believe the Marvel Age is launched at all. I’m making the claim that it was likely Maneely’s sudden death that spurred the frantic call to Kirby, Ditko, and Heck. If Maneely had remained alive drawing the same old genre stories, there is no reason to call anyone back. The line plods along as it had been for a decade until slumping sales cause Goodman to finally end the comic book line once and for all. No Marvel Comics. Joe goes on the star at DC (now without any competition of any significance) and eventually MAD magazine. The world of comic books lost a great deal when Joe Maneely disappeared during that late night train ride. Our imagination could envision the artist as a Marvel Comics star or a star in a world without Marvel. He possibly was the most prolific artist of the 1950s and certainly had his greatest years still ahead of him. It’s a “what if?” scenario for the Marvel Ages.

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el Characters, Inc.

The late comic book creator Rich Buckler talks with Michael Aushenker in this final installment of their epic conversation with the artist discussing his collaboration on “Black Panther”

Rich Buckler: Shortly after I started to work for Marvel full time, the men in charge, besides Stan Lee, were John Verpoorten, Sol Brodsky, John Romita, and Roy Thomas. As I recall, there were no editorial power struggles and no ego games. None that I ever ran into, anyway. It was around that time that I got to work with one of the brightest of

the new comic book writers from my generation, Don McGregor. We had two essential things in common. We were both young, and we were both out to change the world! So Don and I were practically spiritual brothers when it came to creating comics. When Don moved to New York from Rhode Island and started his staff job at Marvel he and his family briefly stayed at my place. I helped him to find his first apartment in the Bronx and we became good friends. Don is a consummate wordsmith and storyteller. I know from experience that he is very passionate about his work. So there is another common trait that Don and I had — neither of us did anything halfway or half-heartedly. As I liked to say, all or nothing! And too much is never enough! Comic Book Creator: Enter the Black Panther… Rich: Working on the “Black Panther” series [in Jungle Action] was a challenge. But for both Don and me it was also a sheer labor of love. I always resonated with Jack Kirby’s Black Panther. My first sample Marvel story pages that I showed to Stan Lee were action pages featuring Ka-zar and Black Panther. So, once again, Roy Thomas comes up because it was Roy’s decision to put Don and me together on this character. Remember that I mentioned cinematic storytelling techniques earlier? Well, what I do as a comics creator is what I call “movies on paper.” Don and I always resonated on this point. While Don is not an artist, and he is always quick to point that out, by the way — ”Rich, I can’t even draw a stick figure!” — as a writer, he thinks visually and that cinematic approach to comics is an important part of how he crafts a story. Really his concepts and characters and ideas are all “movies on paper.” So, with Black Panther, we got to build on what Jack Kirby created! But we also got to do it our way. We are both really film directors at heart. Both of us have dabbled in filmmaking for a spell. And both of us are creatively adventurous. That series got off to a nice start and things went smoothly for the most part. Nobody was guiding us or overseeing our work. We were definitely pushing the envelope with all those experiments with layouts and page composition, logos, story titles, coloring. Those things were all the product of brainstorming sessions between Don and myself. CBC: Again, seemingly unprecedented…

INTERVIEW CINDUCTED BY MICHAEL AUSHENKER 82

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[INTERVIEWER’S NOTE: Deathlok the Demolisher never should’ve happened. The 11-issue tale, told within the pages of Astonishing Tales in the early 1970s, was dark, ominous, nihilistic, racially charged, and, interestingly, sprinkled with allusions to the New Testament and The Doors. Even though it took place in the then-far-off future of 1990, Rich Buckler’s creation came most defiantly out of the 1960s counter-culture. Self-contained and basically unconcerned with the rest of the crossover-happy Marvel Universe, it was also unlike anything the House of Ideas had ever published before. A tragic anti-hero who began life as erstwhile government soldier named Luther Manning, Buckler’s creation did not really occupy the same oxygen as Spider-Man, Iron Man, and the Incredible Hulk, and on those rare occasions Deathlok the Demolisher did tread the same earth, such as in a two-part Marvel Two-in-One opposite The Thing, it was an awkward fit. Above all, Buckler’s short-lived, post-apocalyptic sci-fi saga was ahead of its time, visually recalling elements of those popular futuristic flicks Escape From New York and Robocop. Only thing is, those movies didn’t appear until many years after “Deathlok the Demolisher” was published. And yet, it had all come together for Rich Buckler, hadn’t it? He got the best writer in Doug Moench to execute his bold creation. He landed the best inker, Klaus Janson, to embellish his cinematic, unconventional panels, which not only defied straight-forward sequencing but sometimes dared the readers to turn their entire issue on its side. Reading those 11 issues of Astonishing Tales, you couldn’t help but get the feeling that a mischievous Buckler had truly gotten away with something within ye olde Mighty Marvel Bullpen. A rebel cartoonist who later even rebelled against comics by creating Dali-esque surrealist paintings, Rich Buckler, who passed away at the age of 68, on May 19, 2017, refused to conform. In his own way, Richard Buckler, Sr., was counter-culture to the end. — Michael Aushenker.]

with writer Don McGregor, the Deathlok lawsuit — and his creation’s influence on Hollywood science fiction — and Rich’s post-comics career in the fine arts. Rich: Nobody else at Marvel at the time was doing anything like that. I added the Zip-A-Tone shading on the inked pages. Remember Zip-A-Tone? It was dot patterns used for shading, and these were printed on thin plastic stick-on sheets that you had to cut with a matte knife. Really tedious stuff. That was a technique I learned from Wally Wood and Gray Morrow. And there was this story I did for Warren before I worked on “Black Panther” [“Snow,” Creepy #75, Nov. ’75]. I penciled it really tight and I didn’t know who was going to ink it, so I used blue pencil to indicate all of the shading and lighting techniques. And who did I get for an inker? It was Wally Wood! So you might say I was totally immersed in that work on Jungle Action. I even did extensive coloring notes on the page borders and I worked closely with colorist Glynis Wein. So there were lots of visual surprises and firsts in that series. Sometimes it’s like that: you get really lucky. The whole team on a particular book is involved and totally committed. I wish that kind of thing happened more often! I’ll tell you about something else. Very few comics fans knew even existed back then at Marvel. This is something that has relevance to what I was talking about. A lot of my work and a whole lot of Marvel covers were was done on the Marvel premises at the “bullpen away from the bullpen,” as I like to call it. This was a workspace off in a remote section where nobody bothered me, located on the same floor as the main offices. In fact, it was a place that most of the editorial people didn’t even know about or if they did, rarely visited. The way that came about had little to do with me in particular. It was just sheer luck that I got it. On a whim, I asked Sol Brodsky one day about the space. I had noticed that immense unused office area one day. What I found interesting about it was that it was a nearly empty area that was apparently totally unoccupied. There were desks and chairs, and some of it was used for storage, but it was otherwise just wasted space. Well, I knew a good opportunity when I saw one! So I asked Sol if I could set up a drawing desk there to work at, and would that be okay? Sol said, “Sure. Why not? Let me see what I can do.” So he arranged it. CBC: Sounds pretty sweet! Rich: For about a year or so, I had it basically all to myself. Ed Hannigan joined me later, and I think only Ed and I had keys to get in. Well, besides John Verpoorten and Sol, and maybe Virginia Romita. That space became a sort of exclusive place to hang out. Exclusive,

because it was not for everybody. Just people I liked and resonated with. Which meant artists such as Ed Hannigan, Ron Wilson, and up-andcomers like Klaus Janson and Terry Austin — and ace letterer/calligraphers Tom Orzechowski and Annette Kawicki! Nobody would just hang out though, because, first and foremost, it was a workplace. But the work was also fun! And the creative atmosphere there was always charged! CBC: Were any writers allowed? Rich: Besides Don, no other writers were allowed. Except for Tony Isabella. He was with editorial, but he was cool about it so we still considered him one of the guys. Even more importantly, Tony would stop by often with a lot of British cover assignments that needed to be drawn up fast. Ed and I did a lot of those. CBC: Your work on Deathlok included many references to music, most notably The Doors with the story titles and other references. Can you comment for a moment on what The Doors meant to you? And where you were/how you heard about the passing of Ray Manzarek, in May 2013, and how that hit you? Rich: Yes, well, I have always worked to music. I can’t imagine doing without it. Since my fanzine days as a teenager, I was totally into music. I even taught myself to play guitar and keyboards. I’m not any good at it, mind you, but I can play a bit. Artists, you know, spend a lot of time alone while they work. I found that with music playing in the background I could easily go into creative mode at the drawing board. I suppose a lot of artists do this. “Creative mode” is just my name for it. It ‘s not so esoteric or mysterious as it sounds. It’s just one of those things that happens when you’re sort of “hyper-aware,” and you’re able to be extremely focused. During that kind of work, time seems to disappear. Well, time is really an illusion anyway. And your productivity just soars! Really, in those creative periods just about anything seems possible! So, for me, the music would help make that happen. And the drawing and the ideas would just flow. At Marvel in the ’70s, which were also, I suppose, the halcyon days of hard rock and heavy metal, I listened to music of the late ’60s and early ’70s mostly. It was total immersion in the rock music of The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, The Animals, The Beatles, Procol Harum, Cream, Traffic, Arthur Brown, Iron Butterfly, The Who, and Led Zeppelin. I was also mesmerized by the blues greats, like Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, B.B. King, and Buddy Guy. Those guys could really play!

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Concerts, though, were a whole other thing. I wasn’t all that into indoor concerts, and here’s why: when I was a teenager in Detroit, I went with my brother to see Led Zeppelin live. This was just after they had recorded their first album. I think this was my first live concert. The band was playing at a small venue just outside the downtown area. I had never heard anything like Zeppelin before. And I loved the music. But that concert is permanently imprinted on my mind, not only because it was the first, but also because it was the loudest! As we were driving in my car down Michigan Avenue on our way to the concert, we could hear this tremendous roar in front of us off in the distance. That just got louder and louder as we got closer and closer. I realized it was the band playing! Whoa! I think the whole neighborhood was taking in that performance. You didn’t have to even go into the building! Well, my brother Ron and I couldn’t hear right for weeks afterward! I think my ears are still ringing from it. I went to two more concerts at that same venue. I saw The Who when Tommy first came out, and I got to see Iron Butterfly with their long version of “In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida.” After that, my hearing started to suffer a bit, so I swore off live concerts. All these concerts were deafening, really. I remember seeing Iggy and the Stooges live, and their music was awful. Iggy kept falling down and retching and cutting himself on stage. I think that was my last live concert and, after that, I just kept things limited to recorded music. Nowadays, for most my painting and drawing time I listen to a good deal of classical music. Beethoven, Bach, Rachmaninoff, Paganini. I’m still a rock ’n’ roller at heart, though, so I still throw on some rock music to keep things flowing. So, back when I worked at the Marvel offices, it was like that: I was always plugged into a portable radio with headphones. I loved all of the blues-based rock bands. The Doors, in particular, fascinated and inspired me. It was so emotion-charged and surreal! Their music just took me to “the zone.” Nobody was doing the keyboard-based stuff that Ray Manzarek was coming up with. Robby Krieger’s knife-edged bluesy guitar work was distinctive and dynamic. John Densmore was soulful on drums — and he was impeccable! And Jim Morrison — I thought he was definitely visiting what I refer to as “the zone.” Maybe it was all the drugs and alcohol. But it took you places. I mean, everything the band did was like that: epic and otherworldly, and so soul-stirring and inspiring! So, with Deathlok, I always named the stories myself. All of those rock ’n’ roll story titles were chosen by me. It just fit so perfectly. I couldn’t resist. You know, I always thought, if Deathlok had a soundtrack, it would definitely be hard rock! I like to say: DC Comics is classical music and Marvel is rock ’n’ roll. CBC: You were so into music, Rich…did you ever meet any rock stars? Rich: Oh, and while we’re on that subject of music and comics, and this was around the time Marvel was doing the KISS comic book (which I worked on also), Marvel was getting some occasional celebrity visitors from the music industry. Elton John had dropped by the Marvel offices for a surprise visit. David Bowie, too. It seems that they were both comic book enthusiasts. CBC: Really? Now that is otherworldly! Rich: Unfortunately, I was busy working and I missed both of those occasions. But I had an opportunity to meet John Lennon. At the time, Roy Thomas was hoping to start a project with John that involved doing a comic book. When Roy mentioned that prospect, I was all ears! Roy invited me to be in on it. I couldn’t wait. Alright, so Roy said he would arrange for us to meet at the Dakota to discuss the details and work things out. We were both really excited about this. But, only a few days later, Lennon was shot. You can imagine, when I heard that news, I was shocked. I was devastated. CBC: Can you discuss at all the visual homage you paid to Jack Kirby? Rich: I did that on some of the Marvel books I drew because I wanted to. Drawing in that style was also fun and at the same time it was my way of acknowledging the influence and saying thanks. There was nothing else behind it. My sole reason for doing it was my love of the characters and my admiration for Jack Kirby as a creator! I was so enamored with how Jack originally did the Fantastic Four and Thor and the Incredible Hulk. You know, all the magical seminal Marvel stuff that I grew up on as a comics fan. That was still alive in me — and it still is to this day. It wasn’t like anybody at Marvel wanted me to draw this way or that way, or that anybody told me to do it. I always drew whatever I pleased in whatever way I wanted anyway. And I certainly wasn’t a struggling artist hoping to make it by being a “Kirby clone.” Far from it. By the way, here’s a totally surreal synchronicity regarding Kirby. I never knew him well and his influence on me was profound. He is my absolute favorite comics creator. But you know what? Kirby passed away on my birthday. That is one walloping cosmic conundrum! CBC: Heavy. 84

Rich: I never thought it might backfire on me somehow. Tributes are tricky like that. Those books I did in that style back then are still considered tremendous fan favorites. Most comics fans loved that stuff. For anybody who thought it was just plain wrong-minded for me to do that, well… fine, that’s their opinion. I was doing a tribute. That’s how I looked at it, plain and simple. I loved Jack Kirby’s work, but it wasn’t like I was trying to “be” Kirby. And I enjoyed the hell out of it when I was doing it! I remember getting hints about this notion a few times from a couple of concerned comics fans back then. “You know, maybe Jack Kirby wouldn’t exactly be thrilled that you’re imitating him. Ever think about that?” That kind of thing. Strangely, that never even occurred to me. I never really thought about that. So, then I began to wonder just what Jack might think about the whole thing. Well, why not find out? So I called him up. I didn’t get Jack on the telephone this time as it turned out. He was busy at the drawing table and he couldn’t come to the phone, but I spoke to Roz, Jack’s wife. I asked her pointedly if Jack saw my work on Fantastic Four and some of the other Marvel books where I was doing my Jack Kirby style riffs. I wanted to know: what did he think about it? “Was he offended, or did it upset him?” I asked. Roz told me, “No! On the contrary, he loved it. He took it as a compliment!” That settled the matter for me, right then and there. CBC: Another Jack Kirby endorsement! [laughter] Rich: So I’m saying this for all the concerned comics fans out there who love Jack Kirby’s work. There’s no controversy there. Besides, that was something I did and then I dropped it. I had fun with it, but I didn’t make a career out of it. CBC: I think many readers would agree that artistically you are your own man, for sure. Rich: Same thing, by the way, with the Neal Adams style I used at DC Comics. On that note, it’s funny, but I still meet people who know absolutely nothing about comics and they actually think Stan Lee writes and draws all of the books! So when they tell me that, of course I correct them and I tell them: “No, Stan isn’t an artist. He doesn’t draw anything. There are lots of artists and creators who do that.” And then sometimes I’ll get: “Really? Stan Lee lets you draw his stuff?” CBC: With Deathlok, a character you had created work-for-hire and brought to the Marvel table, how would you go about things differently if you had to do it all over again, given the creator-owned nature of the industry today. Would you self-publish or go to an imprint like Image? Was there any advantage to creating Deathlok while at Marvel? Rich: Let’s see… creative advantages at Marvel with Deathlok? Let me think real hard about that one. Ummm… actually, none. Marvel published it. That’s it. Maybe that sounds almost ungrateful, but it’s true. There were no specific advantages that were provided by the publisher. Actually, as I mentioned earlier, there were mostly hindrances along the way, once I began to work on it. Let me explain: Nobody at Marvel was looking out for me then except for Roy Thomas. Once he was gone, I was virtually on my own. What I produced for Marvel on that book was technically work-for-hire, as you put it — but there was no input from Marvel at all. Marvel Comics was where the work I did got processed. Marvel issued the paychecks. I did the work. As I said before, I did most of my Marvel work at home, with covers being about the only exception. That’s how Jack Kirby and John Buscema did it then, and Herb Trimpe and Gene Colan and most of the rest of the guys. They worked at home. Gil Kane wasn’t sitting at a drawing table in the Marvel “bullpen” with Stan Lee leaning over his shoulder and saying: “Okay, Gil, draw it like this…” John Romita and Sol Brodsky were on staff and they worked at the Marvel offices. Editors and assistant editors worked there. Everybody else was freelance, including letterers, colorists, and all of the writers. That Marvel “bullpen” I keep mentioning was just several rows of art tables where art corrections, lettering corrections, and mechanical paste-up were done. Let’s see… Mike Esposito, Jack Abel, and George Roussos worked there, and Marie Severin had her own office nearby, but otherwise the bullpen was just a glorified production department. So literally, Marvel didn’t factor into the creation of the book at all. Except in terms of the production process and then to get it printed and onto the newsstands, of course. On the creative side of things, Deathlok’s world had nothing to do with Marvel’s universe, or vice versa. That was on purpose. CBC: What about as far as editorial was concerned? Rich: Well, honestly, nobody at the Marvel offices seemed to know what the book was or what to do with it. Not even Stan Lee, as I mentioned earlier. #20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

This might give you an idea how far removed that book was from the rest of their properties. I remember one time when Roy stopped me in the hallway outside the production department. Roy asked me: “Rich, is Deathlok black?” He wasn’t being funny. I think someone had said something to him, and that made him wonder and ask me about it. So I told him: “No, Deathlok is not black. But his wife is.” Then I asked Roy what he thought of the series so far. He said there were a lot of things he couldn’t quite follow, but overall it was very different and very exciting. CBC: I loved the sly use of the interracial relationship in your version. Later versions did indeed make Deathlok a black character. Your take on it was so much more complex, especially given the year. Rich: Roy said it was also like that for some of Jim Starlin’s work on Captain Marvel. “I don’t really understand a lot of it,” he said, “But keep up the good work!” So Deathlok was truly an anomaly, both as a character and as a bi-monthly Marvel title. And so was I. CBC: Can you talk about the business side of that equation? Rich: In those days, nobody got the kind of a deal that I got for Deathlok. Not at the mainstream companies. Was Deathlok actually so new that only a publisher like Marvel could do it? Well, no. It was new. But Marvel wasn’t so cutting-edge. Nobody at Marvel at that time was looking for “new” — period. Remember all the hype from back then? Marvel wasn’t “The House of Ideas” that Stan touted it to be. Not really. That sobriquet had about as much substance as Stan’s “Excelsior!” My view is that Jack Kirby was that “House of Ideas.” Marvel was a company, and it was more like the “House of Commercial Properties.” I’m not talking about the creative people now, I’m talking about the company. Marvel was a production house — more like a factory. And I’ll tell you something else: to just about everybody the fact that I could do this book the way I did, was a bit of a mystery. Including me. If you think about it, what I got to do and how I was able to do it was a bit of a conundrum. If anything, what I had going was really somewhat of a throwback to back when comics first began to be a viable publishing business. Back in the 1940s, when comics were booming and a good portion of the comics were produced by artist studios that packaged the books for the publishers. Like when Simon and Kirby, and Will Eisner, and the rest did it. Anyway, when that opportunity to create something really new at Marvel came about, it was just something I had to do, no matter how things might play out. I remember consulting with Sol Brodsky several dozen times when he put together the paperwork for this. He pointed out: “Rich, you can edit the book, but we can’t give you credit or pay you for that.” I said, “Fine. No problem. I just want to do the work.” So that whole thing, working up the written agreement, took a few weeks. The reason it took so long was because even the lawyers upstairs didn’t have any guidelines for putting a deal together like this. The contract I got wasn’t perfect. Not by any means. But keep in mind that there was no such thing back then as “creator-owned.” I wasn’t even thinking in those terms. I was young and I wasn’t all that business savvy, but I wasn’t naive either. I already knew, since my early teens, that not everyone who is nice to you is a nice person, and not everyone who is friendly is really a friend. I also knew that it was a gamble. But when you think about it, almost all business propositions involve a roll of the dice, don’t they? Besides, there’s no such thing as the perfect deal. I was 25 years old and I was offered a chance to do my own thing in a bi-monthly Marvel book. Think what that meant to me then! To write it, draw it, edit it, and make it all up from whole cloth. That was an irresistible opportunity to make another dream come true! So, the timing was right. I was ready for it. And I was damned sure I was up to the task! But I also suspected from the get go that something that great wasn’t going to last. Like I said, the whole thing was an anomaly. If I had it to do all over again? Well, let’s see. If the series could be done under ideal circumstances like in the proverbial “perfect world” that we all imagine from time to time, that would be something! In that scenario, Marvel, or whoever was the publisher, would be totally supportive in every way, and there would be absolutely no editorial interference. They would just do the final production and print the comic. I would do the rest. And I would get a healthy share of the profits. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for that to actually happen though. But getting a deal like that — isn’t that every comics creator’s dream now? CBC: Deathlok was so clearly an inspiration for movies that came around a few years later, including Escape From New York and Robocop. What are your feelings about your creation being so prescient and influential on more than one sci-fi movie classic? Rich: Now there’s another real conundrum. A big one, too. Let’s think about that for a moment, this notion that ideas can be owned. 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cannot copyright or trademark an idea. You know that, right? It’s just not allowed. I always found that to be confounding. You can patent a genome or a seed and you can patent an invention for just about anything. When you patent an invention, you create something and you own it, right? So patents exist for all kinds of things. Like a “device and mechanism for the attachment of interchangeable thingamajigs for dynamic whatchamacallits.” Oh, and here’s one you can look up for yourself. It’s a really baffling one, but it really exists: “System and apparatus for electro-magnetics and bio-manipulation.” You know. Mind-control. Okay, so what I’m getting at is that if you patent something, you then own the rights to it. So why doesn’t that apply to an idea or a concept? Exactly why is that so different? That “invention” involves a plan for its use, and it does require a device or apparatus or physical means to make it manifest in the real world. Right? And in this case, somebody did invent it. So it’s an idea, isn’t it? But if it’s an idea or a concept, you can’t own it. Really mind-boggling. Why is it that somebody can legally patent a gene? That’s is a living thing, and nobody created it, that’s for sure! But according to how things work in this world, legally I can’t lay claim to ownership of my own thoughts? You’ve got to wonder about that. Okay, you can copyright your actual printed work if it’s a story, and that’s fine as far as that goes. But you can’t own the actual idea. There’s a fine line there. Here’s something else to think about. Ready for it? In this crazy modern world, corporations can be authors — authors! Even if they don’t actually create anything! Check out the end-credits for movies. What’s there is really just a long stream of contractually obligated public notices. That’s all done for legal reasons. So, as the credits roll and they have scrolled almost to the end, you’ll find a credit line at the end of the movie that reads something like: “Humongous Corporate Bloodsucking Enterprises LLC is the author of this work.” What???! Corporations are legal entities. They don’t think. They don’t create. They sure as hell are not individuals. So, damned confounding, if you ask me! It’s because of different rules for corporations and individuals. That much is clear. It’s all about the manipulation of words and what is legal, really. And law is commercial and favors business entities and special interests, not human beings. So, idea theft. Well, think about it. Take a look around, and to see what I’m talking about you don’t have to look any further than the comics put out by the mainstream comics publishers. What you will see there is something that happens all the time. CBC: Can you give us a specific example? Rich: In the ’70s, at DC Comics, all of a sudden there is a character called Cyborg joining the Teen Titans. Shortly after my cyborg creation, Deathlok came about. Coincidence? I won’t even bother to comment on who the creators of this character were [Marv Wolfman and George Pérez], but they both worked on Deathlok. Coincidentally. Let’s just take a cursory glance at Cyborg. What’s immediately noticeable? I’m wondering — what’s with the half-metal face, the “chin guard,” and the big red eye? I wonder where that came from? CBC: Gee, yeah… Rich: Amazingly similar character! Isn’t it more than a little bit obvious that this is a shameless knockoff? And another thing: “Cyborg” is a dumb name. It’s a generic term, not a proper name, and I’m not so sure that can even be trademarked or copyrighted. So I guess I have a lot to say on this subject. And since you asked, yes, I have lost count of how many cyborg imitators and Deathlok “wannabes” there are now. Is that kind of thing unusual? Well, not in comics it isn’t, because redundancy abounds! Again, take a look at the mainstream comics publishers. You’ve got Mr. Fantastic and Elongated Man; The Flash and Quicksilver; Green Arrow and Hawkeye; Swamp Thing and Man-Thing; Ant Man and The Atom; Superman and Captain Marvel; Hercules at Marvel and Hercules at DC… the list goes on. It’s so prevalent that most comics fans just take it for granted. CBC: So I suppose there being a cyborg at Marvel meant that DC just had to have one too. They just couldn’t resist. Rich: Like I said earlier — and I mean to drive home this point — the comic book companies actually create nothing. Individual comics creators do that! To these companies the comics are just product and are a means of generating profits through licensing. They don’t create. They just manufacture something that is created for them. To them this is all very natural and to it’s just business. But then they take this new creation and make it into a brand name and make money off it. And they legally own it. And they really do license the crap out of it. And precious little of the profits they make ever get paid out to the creators. Unfair as all that may be, you know, the thing I really take exception to is comics creators and movie screenwriters who rape and plunder other creators’ ideas. Shame on them. That reminds me of a bit of dialogue pertaining to that and it’s from the 85

Iron Man movie. It’s the scene where the bad guy steals the Iron Man technology and then he captures Tony Stark and incapacitates him. The part that is relevant to this is the moment when the bad guy reproves Tony Stark and tells him how selfish Stark is being for trying to keep it for himself. The bad guy remarks: “You think up an idea, and you think you own it?!” When I watched that movie scene playing, you can bet that sure hit home. That’s what I call pure “corporation-think.” If something exists, they just take it! That’s exactly how it works in the real world. CBC: Of course, there’s DC Comics and the creators of Superman, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. Rich: Okay, the creators got some recompense and credit — finally! — but, for decades, Superman was presented as a character from a DC Comics magazine. As if DC, the corporation, created it! And then there is the ongoing legal battle between the Jack Kirby family and Marvel. And that brings me back to what I was saying. Marvel didn’t think up Deathlok. Stan Lee didn’t create the character. I did. I came up with a unique nightmarish computerized “Superman of the future” — no less than an archetype for our modern times — that did not exist before. And it was published for a mass audience. That should count for something, right? What I created was not just a character with a cool costume design and a unique look. I produced a work of fiction that is culturally relevant and important, too. Important for its content and ideas. So maybe none of it was done on the scale of Citizen Kane or literary works like 1984 or Brave New World. But, like the authors of those works, I was aiming high. And I’m not saying this just because I’m the one who thought it up. I’m saying it for this reason: if Deathlok didn’t happen, the way I see it anyway, a significant amount of what followed in comics and movies would not have been: Robocop, Terminator, Westworld, Universal Soldier, Cyborg (the movie version with Van Damme), Solo -- and those are just the one’s that come immediately to mind. And, in terms of borrowing from Deathlok’s milieu, I would include Escape From New York, elements of The Matrix, Tron, and so on. Then there’s the long list of cyborg-wannabes in the comics and in video games. Even Superman became a cyborg! At the center of this topic I am dealing with is really this: Like Tony Stark, I had an idea, and I thought that I owned it. What the hell was I thinking? How could I be so selfish? CBC: That’s pretty much how it works in the movie industry, too. Rich: I love movies. I always have. But you know, Hollywood has borrowed a whole lot from comics, even before technology caught up to creativity and the super-hero movies finally became big money-makers. As a comics creator, I always suspected, and I still believe this, that Hollywood writers and producers mine the comics for ideas. It’s not the other way around. Comic book creators have not to this day been given the respect they deserve, and they get hardly any respect and appreciation from the general public and the media. The comics fans know better! Thank God for them. But, even worse, in terms of business, the creative talent in comics, the writers and artists — they continue to be undervalued, ignored, maligned, and marginalized — and they are rarely, if ever, overrated and overpaid! I’m reminded of an old saying in Hollywood: “The writer always gets screwed.” In the comics business, almost always: the creator gets screwed. CBC: When we did our interview a few years ago [for Back Issue #25], you mentioned that you went through a lawsuit with Marvel and maybe the producers of Robocop over copyright infringement or issues related to Deathlok. Can you comment publicly on any aspect of that lawsuit or in general about going to war legally over what appeared to be clear idea theft? Rich: That lawsuit wasn’t about copyright infringement. Not specifically. Anyway that’s a legal term that can mean a number of things. Your term for it — idea theft — is more apt. And none of what idea theft is about is “clear.” What’s at stake here is control and ownership, and the right to commercially exploit and profit from an idea. Yes, it is about the money. But mostly it’s about control. What was it Philip K. Dick said about words and how they can be used to manipulate people…? You control the meaning of words and you control the people who use them. I decided to take legal steps to try to protect my ownership of this “intellectual property.” And at the time I really thought I had a case. My lawyer said I had a really strong case. But I guess they always say that once you hire them. Did you know that originally my intention was to sue the makers of Robocop and Terminator? That’s what I really wanted to do. To sue the Hollywood film companies! But I couldn’t do that. The entertainment lawyer I hired (and he should know, right?) told me that I couldn’t do this as a creator of Deathlok for Marvel. Why? Well, we’re back to contracts and the power of words and their legal ramifications. You see, Marvel 86

owned the copyright and what I had was not ownership, it was “shared interest.” So we were partners. What I had amounted to a royalty interest in the property. That’s something quite different. However, Marvel had never followed through on that part. Okay, so you see the problem, right? I wasn’t infringing on Marvel’s copyright — or vice versa. And Marvel wasn’t infringing its own copyright. That’s absurd. They were stepping on my rights, though. They never paid me any royalties on Deathlok. At the time of that lawsuit, I had not received any royalties for the original appearances or the subsequent versions of the character. That was tough spot to be in. I didn’t want to sue Marvel, not really, but I didn’t want to give up. So I had to. What I was doing was coming from the point of view of a creator and an idealist. As far as the U.S. courts are concerned, that’s not exactly a strong or defensible position. I was naive in this sense: I thought that I had “right on my side.” Yeah, sure. Remember that “perfect world” I mentioned earlier? Well, we ain’t living in it! Anyway, it didn’t turn out badly. Not nearly as bad as it could have. But it was a mistake on my part, the way I went about it. Marvel won the judgment. I never had a chance, really. Marvel Entertainment became the “creator.” I really have to ask, though: how can you “become” the creator of something already created? Either you are, or you’re not. That’s not something that is done after the fact. Anyway, after that decision Marvel offered a financial settlement. Not that they were being generous or trying to be fair. It was more like, “Take this money and shut the hell up.” I could have pursued it further with an appeal, but we’re talking months and even years of deliberation and legal nonsense. So I took the money. It wasn’t much, but at least I fought the good fight. To Marvel’s credit, their people did not hold it against me or bar me from any future freelance work. My take on all of this now? In that “perfect world” I mentioned earlier, I think things would have — and should have! — turned out differently. But that’s just my idea. The real world is not perfect and life is not fair. Being a surrealist, I do realize this, and I’m not bitter. It’s just how things are. I don’t have to like it though. CBC: What would you have drawn if you had your druthers at Marvel? Rich: That’s an interesting way to put it, because I really was enjoying myself and I really was “having my druthers” at Marvel. I drew what I was assigned to draw, yes. But think about it. I was a comics fan turned pro, and I got to draw just about every character at Marvel. During that time nobody told me what to draw or how to draw it. And virtually everything I drew got printed! So I was living my dream. I was working crazy hours, and it was hard work — but It sure didn’t seem like a job. And talk about being in the right place at the right time! I got to work with some of the biggest names in the industry — Joe Sinnott, John Romita, Frank Giacoia, Vince Colletta, and Dan Adkins. At the beginning I was put to work on horror stories and back-ups. That was okay by me. I work in all genres. And the way I saw it, work was work. Hey, nobody I know started out at the top. So it was slow in the beginning and I had to be versatile. Whatever I was given to draw, though, I gave it my all. Once I proved myself on short stories and non-super-hero material, I got bigger and more important assignments. But I was restless and I never stayed with one book for very long. That’s just how I am. I have so many favorite characters, and back then I wanted to draw them all. I knew how to handle just about all of Marvel’s super-heroes, so very early on I was put to work on covers and then eventually the “big” books. I never did it to become famous. That’s something that other people do when they try to label you. Let’s be realistic: you do something long enough on a regular basis and your name gets out there and eventually somebody labels you. That’s what fame really is. Never mind how hyperbolic and lofty it might sound! You’re a star! I remember what I thought when I first heard this notion of comic book artists being stars, like “rock stars” or “movie stars.” And those epithets were coming from editorial ranks and people who should have known better. “Hey, Rich, how does it feel to be up there with John Buscema and Jack Kirby and Neal Adams? You’re rapidly becoming one of the big stars!” My reply to that was: “Hey, let’s wait and see if that sticks when I’m not drawing popular characters in top titles for either of the major companies.” That’s something for all upcoming comic book artists to think about — and it’s something all the aspiring “superstars of the week” in the comics business will have to reckon with. Shooting stars can rapidly become falling stars. Today you may be the superstar artist of Superman or The X-Men, and tomorrow you’re just another freelance artist drawing a paycheck. That brings to mind another story. One time, when I was working on the Black Panther, back in that period — and this is a story that pertains to that — I remember there was a group of comics fans who came to visit the Marvel offices. This was one of those #20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

guided tours coordinated by an assistant editor or Marvel staffer. They were just wrapping things up and their tour guide left, and as I was passing by at the elevator bank and heading to my work area, one of them interrupted me. “Excuse me,” one of them asked. “We’re looking for Rich Buckler. They told us he was here. Can you help us to find him?” I replied solemnly: “I know he’s around here somewhere but I haven’t seen him. I tell you what, if I run into him I’ll let him know that you’re looking for him. How’s that?” And then I went directly back to work. That’s pretty much how I am now, and that’s how I was back then. Not taking being famous seriously, I mean. I just wanted to work. I love comics, and I love the work. So, for me, what was great about it at Marvel and at DC Comics was that I was being paid to do what I do best and I got to do it full-time and I was like a drawing and idea factory. That part of it has been the most rewarding. Here’s something else I vividly recall: I rarely, if ever, got compliments. I didn’t need them really because I always felt needed! There was always the next page or the next cover to draw. And whatever it was, it was always due yesterday. I remember how John Verpoorten, Marvel’s production manager, would greet me during my daily office visits. “Hey, Rich, you got those pages?” Not “hello” or “how are you doing?” But “where’s the work?” And I was okay with that. He knew I always had something, because I never came to the office empty-handed! During my later stint at DC Comics it was pretty much the same thing. Okay, Julius Schwartz would get his jollies trying to bust my chops a lot. For Julie, I must have seemed like an easy target. I remember one time he confronted me in his office. I was there to pick up a script. “Hey, Buckler,” he began. He called me that a lot — Buckler, not Rich — until one day I just refused to acknowledge him unless he showed me some respect. So he said, trying to intimidate me, “Hey, Buckler. Do you honestly think you can compete with the other pros here who have been doing this for 20 years or more?” And I answered: “Yes, I do.” There was never any question in my mind about that. But, overall at DC, I was treated with respect, by Joe Kubert and Ross Andru and the rest of the editors. I was actually one of Jenette Kahn’s favorites. I had everything going for me, with industry giants like Carmine Infantino, Dick Giordano, and Joe Orlando being so supportive of my art and my career. Can you imagine what that was like? These artists were heroes to me! And Vince Colletta, during the time he was art director at D.C., was my mentor! I was in comics artist heaven! I got to draw Superman, Batman, Captain Marvel, The Justice League—literally, all of my favorite DC heroes! CBC: What led you to write the pair of instructional books, How to Become a Comic Book Artist and How to Draw Superheroes? Rich: That was somewhat serendipitous too, how that came about. At Solson, Gary Brodsky had a co-publishing deal and connected up with major bookstore distribution. His specialty, which he sold them on, was how-to books. This was a really big deal for a small independent publisher like Gary. There was only one problem. He didn’t have any product. So Gary — who is Sol Brodsky’s son, that’s how I got to know him — approached me with the offer of doing a “real” how-to book for aspiring comic book artists. I took up the challenge. Over one long weekend, I came up with How to Become a Comic Book Artist. I wrote all of the text and designed the book from cover to cover. That involved designing a book cover and gathering together some comprehensive text and graphics I had in my flatfiles. Things like layouts and thumbnails, scripts, photocopies of pencil art. So examples from my work that would demonstrate how to create comic book art. And I worked up lots of step-by-step examples. I had 20 years of experience to draw upon, and it was not a difficult task because I had a lot to say on the subject. The book practically wrote itself. I had years of experience working in all aspects of comic book production. I knew it inside out. And I honed my craft over the years by learning from the absolute best artists in the business. So there were lots of “trade secrets” I could share and plenty of actual production techniques that I could write about and demonstrate visually. I didn’t want it to read like somebody sat down at the typewriter to write a serious book. And I didn’t want to do another How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way kind of thing. You know, a coffee table-type of book. We have enough of those. What I had in mind was for it to be useful and comprehensive but informal and conversational in tone. And more personal. You know, as if the person buying and then reading the book got to spend a few hours in person with an experienced comics artist who could show how comics are really created. So, the real “nuts and bolts.” Because of who Gary’s father was, he knew Stan Lee very well, so he got Stan to write the introduction. I got my favorite comic book writer, Roy COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

Thomas, to write the forward. I have since revised the book several times and it has gone through several printings. It’s definitive version, with the title, How to Draw Dynamic Comic Books. It is an attractive edition and it is still available in both hardback and paperback. The book is published by Vanguard Productions. You can purchase it online or at the bookstores. It is even in the library of the University of Michigan! The book How to Draw Super-Heroes followed shortly after Comic Book Artist came out. That book was a learn-to-draw textbook to help aspiring comics artists to learn the secrets of drawing the heroic figure. The material in that book took a little longer to prepare because it is considerably more technical and more specialized. Unfortunately, that book is now out of print. CBC: Please discuss when you began painting oils — like the self-portraits and the cosmic stuff — and what kind of satisfaction do you get from painting non-super-hero stuff? Do you, at this point, prefer oil paintings over producing comics? Or are they interrelated? Rich: Drawing for the comics… well, that’s not exactly illustration. It’s more like cartooning. It’s very specialized. I look at comic book illustration as a separate compartment of drawing. Without getting into any of that, drawing is drawing, whether you’re making things up from imagination or doing accurate portrayals of things and people in real life. Painting and drawing are not opposites. Not really. They are actually entirely different disciplines that complement each other. Where drawing and painting part company is essentially this: drawing in pencil or ink involves the almost exclusive use of lines. In painting, there are no lines. Only color. Most comics artists are “married” to the line. They can’t do without it. They live and swear by it. I know I did. Back when I told Jim Steranko that I was thinking of going into painting, this was in 1999, we were at a comics convention in Atlanta and I sought out his advice. With all of those wonderful paperback covers he illustrated, Jim is definitely a guy who knows painting! He made a provocative statement that I will never forget. We were talking one-on-one at his display area. Jim knew my work comic book work very well. I showed him some of my inked watercolor renderings of comic book characters and I told him was considering doing painting on a serious level. The first thing he told me was: “Rich, you already have everything you need.” That was good to hear. He pointed out that just one crucial thing was missing. What was needed, he said, was one really all-important step. I just had to “drop the line.” Okay, I thought. Makes sense. Ahhh, but how to do that..?! Then he said to me: “Once you drop the line, you’re home. But here’s something else to keep in mind: most artists can’t do it!” Jim was right. That is the hard part. I remembered all of those magnificent paintings that Frank Frazetta had shown me in his home. Frank was a master of pen and brush before that, back when he was original comics pages in black and white. He was able to cut that Gordian knot. So I knew I could do it, too. And I did figure out how to do it. Once I got past my adherence to the line, it was a transcendent breakthrough for me and a whole new world opened up for me. So, which do I prefer: drawing or painting? Well, why should I have to choose? I love to do both. As I said, drawing for comics is more like cartooning. Interestingly enough, that’s even what it used to be called in the industry — cartooning. You probably already know this, but comic books originally came from the “cartoon strips” in the newspapers. They evolved from that. Nowadays, to most people, cartooning means the funny stuff. Like Disney or Peanuts or the Saturday morning animated cartoons. Even my super-hero paintings required a “no line” approach in order to make the characters come to life on the canvas. And, you know, it’s an interesting term, that word “cartoon.” It used to mean something entirely different. In traditional painting, like with the “Renaissance Masters,” the artist would take his drawing and transfer that to the canvas or whatever ground he was painting on. Back in those times this was called the “cartoon.” So that “cartoon” was the plan and the foundation of the painting. Imagine — all those wonderful figures Michelangelo painted for the Sistine Chapel. Those all began as cartoons! Okay, seriously, what I’m saying is that you start out with a drawing — not just a blank canvas. And you don’t paint the drawing. By that I mean that you don’t paint a version of the drawing or cartoon. You paint the painting. Make sense? Comic book artists are used to working in black-&-white. The coloring is usually a separate process done by a different person. So painting, to a comics artist, would most likely be something along the lines of coloring a finished drawing. Now if you’re doing serious painting, you throw out that 87

idea. That’s just coloring a drawing. When I’m at the easel to start work on a painting, I’m not starting with a blank canvas in front of me, wondering what I will put on it. That’s not at all how painters work. They don’t just start painting and hope something will happen. So, my drawing is traced onto the prepared canvas using graphite and then I go over that with ink and enhance it a bit. After that, what I do is spend a little time to allow for the idea “speak” to me. Then I develop the picture from there in steps and stages. With each color that is added or blocked in or layered, the work begins to define itself. Other artists may do it differently. This is just how I do it. All of the real planning has been done already in the drawing stage and all the potential problems of composition and draftsmanship have been solved. So then you build on that. I don’t even work up a color scheme for it before I start to paint. That part is intuitive and it’s mostly feeling. All the traditional painters that I admire, they really knew drawing. You think Leonardo just made things up as he went along? Or that Velázquez just started painting at the top left of a canvas and just worked his way down? So, drawing is first, and then the painting can properly come into being. There are other approaches, so I’m not saying this is the only correct way it’s done. It is the way I do it. I have my own views about painting and fine art. I’m no expert, but I’m also not empty-headed on this subject. I’m familiar with color theory and I know the basics of composition, but I’m not coming from an academic point of view. And I might add, there are a lot of bad paintings that pass for surrealism. But they’re just bad paintings. So, the genre I work in is surrealism. Surrealism is not for everybody. It does seem to resonate with comic book aficionados though. Anyhow, if what you like is tranquil and innocuous landscapes or subjects painted with lots of “feel good” colors, well, Impressionism is a safer bet. Personally, I don’t find tranquil and innocuous very engaging. I don’t find realism to be much of a challenge either. Imagination is where I live. Surrealism is not a painting style or technique. It’s often mistaken for that. It’s really more a way of thinking that doesn’t bother with labels or definitions. And more importantly — there are no rules! Surrealism is almost always very personal, so meanings and subtext tend to be very subjective. The artist is dealing with the real world but is portraying an “inner reality.” I have heard surrealism described as if it has something to do with dreams and the unconscious mind. Okay, I would agree with that to some extent, but surrealism is a lot more than that. Alright, I’ll try to get a little more specific: the surrealism in my paintings is a dynamic play of opposites. That dialectic is a constant in all of my work. Of course, all painting features opposites, like light and shade, soft and hard, rough and smooth, hot and cold, etc. That’s what painting is in all of its various expressions and styles. That’s not what I’m referring to. With surrealism, the subject matter is tantamount. It is there that the artist participates even more intensely in the dynamic interplay of opposites. It’s like alchemy. That’s how I view it. For me, each painting is a dynamic statement of energetic transformation. You know, the microcosm and the macrocosm, like you find stated in the Emerald Tablets: “As above, so below.” And there is a psychological aspect to it too. But no Freud for me. I have more Jungian leanings. So multi-layered meanings abound and contradictions and anomalies are commonplace. And so are visual puns, oxymorons, anomalies, riddles, conundrums, and the like. So you are likely to encounter a delicious concoction of the sublime and the absurd, as evinced in most of Salvador Dali’s works. The possible meets the impossible. That’s what I’m going for. The most potent and lasting images of the famous surrealist painters are all like that. They deal with an “internalized reality” that is externalized. Reality itself is questioned by the artist. It is then sliced and diced, transmogrified and reconstituted and then re-imagined and brought back into existence as something — well, surreal. How does that specifically pertain to my work? Each image I produce is a unique visual puzzle that solves itself, or at least attempts to reconcile opposites. Often, like with Magritte, my work concerns a particular problem I am focused on at the time. And running through most of my “Hermetic Surrealism,” as I call it, you will find a common theme that references ancient religion and the esoteric tradition. Apropos to that, there is the myth of the “Goddess” and her “Divine Son.” We’re in the realm of mythology and ancient religion now, so think ancient Egypt, Greece, Turkey, India, Sumer, Babylon — going way back, even as far back as Mu and Atlantis. So, all of the really ancient religious traditions, both Eastern and Western. “Ancient,” mind you, because these correlations all predate Christianity. My themes and subjects in my paintings come from years of study of ancient art, the esoteric tradition, science and archaeology, and things of 88

that nature. So, you can see that although this is all so very different from the imaginative workings of my comic art, it’s not entirely divorced from it. While I do reference psychology and ancient religion in my painted works, I’m not coming from any kind of religious sensibility. There’s nothing mystical about it either. I don’t do drugs and I don’t go into some kind of trance when I’m painting. Nothing like that. And I’m not religious. Since all of this is obviously so far removed from what anybody might expect from me as a comic book artist, I should provide some context for all of this: In 1998–99, I did a lot of traveling. This was before I even picked up a brush and started painting. Up until that time, I had never been anywhere outside the U.S., except for Canada. I traveled to Russia, Greece, Turkey, Italy, France, Spain, and Israel. Travels like this can really transform a person. Especially an artist. And let me tell you! St. Petersburg, Istanbul, Paris, Madrid, Barcelona, Rome, Vatican City, Pompeii, Venice, Milan, Florence, Tuscany… these were worlds of wonder to me! Think about it: how many comics artists have gone to Pompeii? It was nothing short of life changing. In each place that I went to on those journeys, I observed an abundance of ancient symbols, statues, famous monuments, and cultural treasures — objects of wonder that I had only known about before from books and pictures. But there was also something that I found especially tantalizing and thought-provoking. Evidence of the Goddess was everywhere! I also visited some of the world’s finest museums. So, the museum and pyramid at the Louvre, the Hermitage, the Pushkin Museum, Musee d’Orsay, Uffizi in Florence, Pompidou Center, Monmarte, Espace Dali, Sagrada Familia of Antoni Gaudi, you name it. It was a smörgåsbord of the world’s greatest art masterpieces! And, like Salvador Dali, I devoured all of the art! (Not literally, so don’t worry, it’s all still there.) So I found myself filled with art! And as a result of that, something happened to me that was almost, well, metaphysical. Something that caused an incredible flux of surging energy in me on a creative level. So when I did start to paint, and to do it on a very serious level, it just flowed, sometimes overpoweringly so. CBC: What has it been like for you to be an artist shown in galleries? Is it very much a separate profession from doing comics or do the two intersect in your career when you’re having gallery shows? Rich: Well, it’s not what you might think. And, for sure, the fine art world is a whole other industry far removed from the comics. Really, it is a lot like the antique and collectibles business. Only, I think, more self-serving and profit-driven. For example, the New York International Art Expo is just a glorified trade show. It’s big business really. I couldn’t help noticing that it’s mostly about dead artists. It’s one of those big events where all of the gallery owners meet and decide what the current buying trends are — who is big, who is not, and so on. Well, I suppose somebody has to do that. Everybody there is hustling, so you have wholesale, retail, businesses making deals with other businesses, collectors hoping to make a big score. With the art galleries, it’s a similar story. They are all basically the same, and all of them are run by corporate types with art degrees. Big surprise, right? What I did find surprising though is that while the gallery owners and directors are very shrewd at business and making deals, many of them really don’t seem to know squat about art. Most of the ones I met anyway. Many don’t know the difference between Van Gogh and Gauguin. They seem to think that da Vinci is Leonardo’s last name and they call Rembrandt by his first name. It’s downright embarrassing sometimes. So, going into fine art, I was expecting it to be at least a bit like what I had imagined from reading and researching it. The real world version of it, however, is daunting, perplexing, and full of a lot of nonsense. So my early visits to art galleries in Manhattan were eye-opening experiences. It wasn’t at all what I expected. I participated in many group shows. My first few showings were at Amsterdam Whitney Fine Art. I got some good press notices, but not a whole lot else happened. The opening receptions are always lively and bustling. After that, things move really slowly. There were some high points and there have been a few sales. So it’s not all bad. But my take on it is that it’s mostly not about the art. It’s about “the deal” and “making a sale.” To me, it’s a wonder that art and money ever get together. It’s two different sensibilities. For the artist, it’s about getting the images out to the public to be seen. So when the twain meets--wonder of wonders!--and money actually changes hands, great! But those instances are always few and far between. CBC: Well put. Rich: I’ll tell you something else you will find surprising. Most of the public is unaware of it. Amazingly, many of the name galleries actually charge the artists to show their work. Can you believe that? #20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

I paint for the love of it. But I do manage to get by. And I mostly work around all of that nonsense and I refuse to pay to exhibit. So far, the most friendly venue for me to show my art has been the Williamsburg Art and Historical Center, in Brooklyn. I am a member of the Williamsburg Salon, and Yuko Ni and Terrance Lindall have treated me well. They are a firstclass act and they are really good people. In the beginning, in 1999 when I first began to paint, the “problem” for me was not how to paint — but, what to paint. And I didn’t chose surrealism. Surrealism actually chose me! And surrealism, as it turns out, is not easy to market. If you’re Salvador Dali, Max Ernst, or René Magritte, or some other dead surrealist — different matter. By the way, I like to say that the main difference between me and Salvador Dali, my favorite artist, is that he is dead and I am not. I love all of the surrealist painters. Most of them have their ups and downs too. Dali, Magritte, Ernst, de Chirico, Duchamp, Tanguy — those are my favorites. It was disappointing for me to find out that surrealism is not exactly in great demand these days. As far as the art world is concerned, it had it’s day and it came and went. Nowadays surrealism is just not what most people buy. I still think there has got to be a better way for artists to sell their art. The fine art marketplace in the U.S. seems to be run by a profit-driven cabal. So it’s all relentlessly commercialized, and very controlled. In that milieu, imaginative works are apparently regarded as some kind of “sub-genre.” Like it is something “low brow” or “underground.” Even the galleries that specialize in surrealism tend to be commercially minded, and run by people who are mostly biased and unapproachable. I attempted one time to get my art shown at a gallery in Greenwich Village. This one specialized in surrealism — specifically Dali and his contemporaries. I thought, “This is perfect! Surely they will know the real thing when they see it.” The name of the place was even Gallery of Surrealism! This was when I first started painting. I had already done a few group shows and I had just gotten some positive notices in the art press. So I figured I would give this gallery a try. When I showed my portfolio, the gallery manager made what he thought were some really incisive comments like: “Is this oil painting? It looks like illustration.” That was baffling. What do you reply to a statement like that? “Illustration. Really? And just what is it illustrative of?” That observation was coming from someone with an art degree, believe it or not. Makes you wonder: how can you buy and sell art when you don’t even know the first thing about what it is? And this “expert” made another comment — this one is a real canard that you run into usually in commercial art galleries: “There doesn’t seem to be enough build-up of paint. Our clients like to see brushstrokes and textures, and lots of paint!” So their clients were interested in piles of paint on canvas?! And I thought they were buying art. Well, it turned out that this whole portfolio review was a waste of time because I didn’t fit their “profile.” And that’s what these gallery people do a lot, too — they waste your time. I was informed at the very end of our talk that all of the artists this gallery represents had a provenience in their painting output that included some personal or indirect relationship with Salvador Dali. Um, why didn’t they tell me that at the beginning? So I was confronted with this question: “What exactly do your works have to do with Dali?” “Well,” I said. “Everything! And nothing.” Hey, it was an honest answer. Dali would have appreciated my response. But the people at this gallery didn’t. CBC: Where are you coming from as a painter? Rich: The same as Dali! A passion for art and a mastery of the art form. This gallery was looking for something else — and whatever that was, it was not me. So much for letting my work speak for itself. As in comics, I am self-taught as a painter. I never had any formal training. I guess I’m just not an academic sort of a guy. I like to learn and discover things on my own. As with my comics work, I paint in almost any style — realism, portraits, still-life, landscapes, impressionism, plein air, etc. For me, painting surrealism is all about transcending and breaking free of boundaries and limitations. So, as I’ve mentioned, no rules! However, credibility seems to be a big thing with these people, and academic credentials are taken very seriously. I don’t have any special advantages, like an art degree, and I’m not blessed with a cool-sounding name like Picasso or Renoir. So what? CBC: I think you’re doing pretty well with the name you’ve got. Rich: Funny, I was told something about that by a comic art collector and he meant well. After seeing my paintings at my art studio, he said to me: “‘Rich Buckler,’ it doesn’t sound like the name of a painter. Maybe you should consider changing it.” I didn’t agree. And I was adamant about it! Change my name? To what? Something that sounds more “artistic,” like COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

Warhol or Basquiat? I met Andy Warhol, by the way. Back in the early ’70s. I wasn’t impressed with him or his art, and, well, he wasn’t impressed with me much either. And his real name is not Warhol. Okay, so what’s in a name? Well, everything! I’m not an actor pretending to be an artist! So the name I was born with — that will just have to do. I’m an artist, and I happen to be one who has zero tolerance for bullsh*t. So when it comes to my name — we’ll just give it some time and people in the fine art world will get used to it. CBC: It’s just like with rock bands. I mean, if you think hard enough about their names — The Beatles, The Doors, KISS, etc. — they’re pretty silly. But people get used to it. Rich: So, beginning as a painter, an “emerging artist,” as they call it now, that’s what I became. Only I was “emerging” at 50 years old! No formal training, but I did study briefly with modern Russian master Valeriy Belenikin. I decided to take a few paid lessons mainly to learn and master working in oil. Valeriy was the first painter that I met who actually knew more than I did about painting, and he also hated bullsh*t. He also took me quite seriously, so for awhile I apprenticed with him. When I met him and viewed his work for the first time at his Manhattan studio — this was just before he moved to a house in New Jersey — I was impressed. Most of the painters I met before that were struggling to figure out what they were doing. Valeriy was a different story, and I was certain I could actually learn something from him. So, on that visit I asked a lot of questions. Valeriy was from Moscow and he spoke very limited English. That was an inconvenience but my wife Mila helped out by translating his Russian during our lengthier discussions. Understand, this was a serious undertaking for both of us! And Valeriy could paint — and I mean like Rembrandt Harmenz van Rijn, Albrecht Durer, and Velázquez! And he loved Dali’s works! He was classically trained, so he knew all the techniques and styles of the masters. And he was the real deal. So I came to regard him as a “maestro,” even though he is eleven years my junior. Up until that time, I was only painting in acrylics. I was using acrylic paint to get oil painting techniques and I was getting amazing results using blending mediums. But that was very limiting and time-consuming. So, when he and his wife moved to New Jersey, I visited him at his gallery, in Lambertville. Over the space of a few months, we became close friends. I paid for the first few lessons and I was an excellent student. After a short time things became less formal. All of my works up to this time were relatively small. Valeriy was helping me in his own way to grow as a painter — and I was all for that! — and to learn to paint as he put it “in the classical tradition.” By that, he meant like a Russian painter! He would say to me, in his very limited English, “Good. Nice. Now do it bigger!” Russian painters all like to paint big, and they’re not fooling around! Ever! My first lesson was to paint a portrait of my wife. I had never painted or drawn anybody while they sat for their portrait, so this was something new. And it was not easy! I remember that lesson well. I naively asked him to recommend which colors to use for flesh tones. Surely, the maestro had his preferences and knew from experience what worked best, right? So I asked: “Which colors should I use?” He replied: “You’re an artist! You have to find the colors.” “Right,” I said. “I had a feeling you were going to say something like that.” So he was Yoda to my Luke Skywalker. [laughter]’ Another lesson was a plein air painting. That’s a style of French impressionist painting where you choose a scene — in this case Valeriy’s backyard — and then you paint the scene all in one sitting. That was another important first for me. So he set me up with a portable easel and some oil paints and brushes. And left me on my own. Every hour or so he would come to check on my progress and make suggestions. The real challenge was to capture the mood and lighting of the scene. Well, while the painting was progressing nicely, the light was also constantly changing. So, good thing I was already used to working under pressure of a deadline! After a few weeks, the formal lessons ceased and I continued to work on my paintings at my art studio, in Manhattan. After that, I would drive to New Jersey and bring those works with me for Valeriy to view and critique at his gallery. During those visits in his painting studio, the maestro was always very critical and not all that quick to give a compliment. He was blunt and incisive, but he also had a quick wit and an engaging sense of humor. What I liked and appreciated most was that he was always honest. That was important because I wasn’t there to seek approval. If he looked at one of my canvases for a long time it didn’t necessarily mean there was something wrong with it. But usually there was. Sometimes there were outright mistakes. Easy for him to spot. He had already painted at least two thousand canvases! So, for each painting I showed he usually had suggestions for improvements. And he was particularly acute 89

with problem-solving. “It needs this,” he would point out,” or, “Too many details. Don’t think. Feel!” He did grudgingly admit once that he couldn’t do the kind of thing I do — and by that, he meant the comic book work. Anyway, as more time went by, as painters we also began to compete with each other. In a friendly way. So one day at his studio Valeriy challenged me to do a larger version of an 11" x 17" acrylic painting that I had already done. It was one which he liked very much. “I like it. But this time,” he said, “do it bigger, and do it in oil!” I balked at that. Normally I never repeat a painting. And I had already finished several of my acrylic paintings in oil, so I was getting good, and really fast. But I think he thought I couldn’t do it. Or maybe it was a test just to see if I was actually learning anything of value from him. I took up that challenge and I produced a 30" x 40" oil painting on canvas of “The Goddess and the Sphinx” that was an almost exact replica of the smaller acrylic original on board. I brought that back a few weeks later. When I showed this to him, there was a long silence. He rubbed his fingers across his short beard and gave me a quixotic look. Then he nodded. “So,” I asked. “What do you think?” And he replied: “I think, now you can teach me!” That was the best compliment any painter can give to another painter. After that, I did many large paintings in oil. My large oil rendition of “Leda and the Swan” was one of his favorites. One day, Valeriy and his wife, Ildico, invited me to do a guest exhibition in his gallery. For me, this was quite an honor. And we did that, and it was called “Two Modern Masters.” That was another high point for me. Back in Russia, Valeriy is very well-known and highly respected. Unfortunately for me, a few years ago he moved back to Moscow. I still miss him. So, back to showing in galleries. And Valeriy comes to mind for another reason. I remember going to a well-known gallery in Manhattan that specialized in surrealism. This was in 2000, on Manhattan’s West Side, where many of the big upscale commercial galleries are. This happened when I had first met Valeriy. I never did tell him this story. Anyhow, I showed my portfolio to the Russian gallery director, a woman in her late fifties. I was confident because this gallery was recommended to me by Dimitri Semakov, another young Russian painter, who had insisted that this gallery was definitely “the place to be.” The gallery director’s accent was very thick and her English was perfunctory and her manner very stolid and pretentious. Well, that was about what I expected. But I was the soul of propriety. You have to be with these people. And you really have to choose your words very carefully. As she was perusing my painting portfolio I mentioned that I was studying with Valeriy Belenikin. “Belenikin?” she said. “I won’t show his work. I don’t like him.” And I asked why. “Because,” she said, “He thinks he is a great painter!” And I replied to that, “Well, so do I!” Needless to say, but I’ll say it anyway, that was the wrong thing to say, and that appointment went absolutely nowhere. I don’t know about being a “great painter.” That’s not in my thinking at all. It is certainly not my motivation for doing it, because I really have nothing to prove. So, for gallery showings, my proudest moment as I embarked upon my painting career came in February of 2002, when I exhibited 40 of my surrealist works in Paris, in a solo exhibition. The only other comic book artist to do this, that I know about, is Jim Steranko. And he showed at the Louvre! Of course, on those trips to Paris, my wife and I visited all the art museums. So Montmartre and Musee d’Orsay — which is in a gigantic railway station. The place itself was a work of art! That was really mind-expanding. We even went to Madame Tussaud’s wax museum. Anyway, on my first visit to the Louvre I had to pay. Okay. That was just like all the others. But on our second visit, which would be months later, they let me in for free because this time I was an artist who was exhibiting in Paris. I remember giving the ticket attendant the name of the gallery showing my work, and when I showed my portfolio with my self-portrait he said, “Oui! This is you! Right this way, Monsieur Buckler!” I tried that back home at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, in Manhattan, by the way, but it didn’t work. I still had to pay. And, hey, no surprise there! This is the place where the art galleries charge the artists to exhibit, remember? So, getting back to how I got to meet the owner of Gallerie Natalie Boldyreff and how my solo exhibition in Paris came about: well, that’s a surreal story in itself. This was the first week of September of 2001. My wife and I had just finished an all-day excursion to the Louvre. Actually, to see everything there it would take months, not days! So it was late afternoon and my wife, Mila, and I were standing on a street corner in front of a small cafe on rue St. Honore. We were hungry and overheated and almost thoroughly exhausted from doing the tourist thing. I was exasperated too because my experience with the Paris art galleries we visited so far had not been a lot different than what I encountered back in New York. What was the problem? Well, the usual roadblocks — indifference, 90

close-mindedness, resistance to the new. Plus, of course, all the nonsense one encounters when dealing with intellectuals and wealthy aristocratic types. So, like I said, it all started to get to me. I mean, really get on my nerves! Anyway, she turned to me suddenly, totally frustrated, and she nearly yelled: “What?! What do you want from me?!” And I said, like a spoiled child who just wants what he wants, “I want to show my paintings in Paris!” “Where?” she asked in a demanding tone, with her arms spread wide. “Tell me where?!” I looked across the street and I pointed to an art gallery that looked the most friendly to me and I said, “There! But first, we eat something!” So we did, and when we came out of the cafe we were refreshed and somehow the world just seemed right to me. Now, none of this was thought out or planned carefully, so you can appreciate the synchronicities here. Without an ounce of trepidation, we crossed the street and we entered the gallery with a large sign that read, Gallerie Natalie Boldereff. It didn’t register on me on a conscious level at the time, but that didn’t sound very French. And as soon as we came in, we were in luck! The gallery owner was there and she got up from her desk to greet us! In fact, she looked like she was expecting us. That was a very surreal and synchronistic moment, for sure, but it was not the only one! Natalie greeted us in French. My wife, who is Russian, responded in Russian. And they proceeded to have a conversation in Russian. I had an epiphany. “Boldereff”? Ah! Of course! So, we were in, I told myself. That is, if the gallery owner liked surrealism and if she liked my paintings. Two big “ifs”, right? I looked around. Surreal paintings on all the walls. Yep, right choice. Right place. Why was this so easy? So Natalie and Mila just hit it off right away. And Natalie also spoke some English, so I could talk to her too. That was a relief, because my Russian vocabulary is limited to about a dozen words. Okay, so far so good. I showed my work. Natalie was impressed with my paintings — all of them! I could hardly believe my luck! I mentioned how snobbish the gallery scene was and she said her and her husband encountered that a lot, too. I told her about myself, and later I imagined that maybe, after getting to know me a bit, she figured, “Hmmm… Let’s see now. He is a painter who is not on drugs, he’s not an alcoholic, and he’s apparently not crazy — so, just maybe he is some kind of artistic genius!” Who knows what she really thought? Honestly, I wasn’t about to question my good fortune. So we talked things over and we made a deal, and the very next day we did the paperwork. The language problem with the contract was solved easily enough. Our agreement was done in Russian, which Mila translated for me, and we both signed it. The actual event was scheduled to happen the following February, which roughly coincided with my birthday. That meant another trip to Paris, which we did. So I shipped all of my paintings to Paris and we returned for the opening reception. In Europe, the marketing of art is a bit different than here in America. If you show in a gallery in France, the galleries there actually promote the artist. The color poster for my one-man show featured my self-portrait, and that was printed up by the gallery and plastered all over the city of Paris. “Rich Buckler, American Surrealist.” Practically everywhere we walked, there it was! And here’s something else that was a bit of a surprise. In Paris, the people who came to view my paintings also knew my work as a comic book artist! To them the comic art and painting were the same thing! I was even interviewed by the French press. That was to be done in French and, for that, Natalie had to translate my English. When I arrived at the gallery to meet the art critic and photographer, I was surprised that the gallery owner was a bit angry with me. She took me off to the side and told me, “I’m very upset with you. Why didn’t you tell me you were already famous?” I said, “What do you mean?” And she told me that people were coming in droves, many of them students from the nearby university at Pompidou Center, and they were saying they knew my work already from the comic books. “This is embarrassing. They all know more about you than I do! Why didn’t you tell me this?” And I said that I did, I just didn’t emphasize it because I didn’t think it was that important! So I did my very first solo exhibition in Paris and that was another dream come true. Following in the footsteps of my favorite painter, Salvador Dali, I made my solo debut in Paris — where surrealism began! And the rest just sort of made modern-day surrealist history. Well, not really. But for me it did. So that was a bit of a long story, I know. But wait. That’s not all of it! During that second stay in Paris we roomed at a small hotel that was run by Muslims who also spoke English. All of the staff members there were warm, and courteous and very accommodating. This was not your usual hotel experience, especially #20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

considering that we were foreigners. It was much more intimate and friendly. It’s funny, I remember the elevator there was so small that it could only accommodate two people at a time, or one person with luggage. So things were really scaled down for a hotel, but still very agreeable. We spent evenings in the tiny lobby sitting in comfortable old sofas, drinking French coffee and mixing with whoever joined us. They all loved Mila and I was somewhat of a celebrity to them — a painter and a somewhat famous comic book artist from America. We got the first class treatment, you might say. We were like honored guests. So, in September, only a short time after Mila and I had returned home to New York from our first trip, the 9/11 disaster happened. Where I live, which is in downtown Manhattan, we could see the World Trade Center from our front window off in the distance. That’s how close we were to it. I’m not going to go into a 9/11 story here — actually I have a few of them. But I will just mention that the horror of that day, believe it or not, even managed to reach all the way to our front door. And you know what? At our home we got a long distance telephone call from the hotel manager in Paris. This was a big surprise. Our Muslim friends had heard about the

news and everybody on staff there was shocked and they were concerned about us, and they wanted to know if were we okay. So that’s my account of our Paris experience and the very beginnings of my adventures as a surrealist painter. That was quite a story, no? Looking at things in terms of a career, well — it really wasn’t. A career, that is. And it still isn’t. Painting has been more like an avocation. To earn a living, I still do commercial art and comic book work. Just a quick comparison of those two art forms: For me, painting is a broader and less restrictive outlet for ideas than the comic books. In contrast to drawing comics, there are no writers or editors or art directors I have to deal with. CBC: So that must be liberating for you as a creator… Rich: It’s just me and the canvas and what I choose to put down on it. And I’m all about freedom and freedom of expression! And one last thing: besides surrealism there are two other things that I have in common with my favorite surrealist painter. Like Dali’s wife, Gala, my wife, Mila, is Russian. And just like the Marquis de Púbol, I own none of the paintings I produce. Like Dali, all of my paintings are gifted to my wife.

This page: Various examples of Rich Buckler’s fascinating surrealistic paintings, as well as photos of the artist himself, including pix of the artist standing in the Louvre Pyramid which serves as entrance to the world-renowned art museum; and Rich posing with the wax replica of his idol, Salvador Dali at Madame Tussaud’s. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

A 25 Year Celebration! th

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In 1994, amidst the boom-&-bust of comic book speculators, THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR #1 was published for true fans of the medium. That modest labor of love spawned TwoMorrows Publishing, today’s premier purveyor of publications about comics and pop culture. Celebrate our 25th anniversary with this special retrospective look at the company that changed fandom forever! Co-edited by and featuring publisher JOHN MORROW and COMIC BOOK ARTIST/COMIC BOOK CREATOR magazine’s JON B. COOKE, it gives the inside story and behind-the-scenes details of a quartercentury of looking at the past in a whole new way. Also included are BACK ISSUE magazine’s MICHAEL EURY, ALTER EGO’s ROY THOMAS, GEORGE KHOURY (author of KIMOTA!, EXTRAORDINARY WORKS OF ALAN MOORE, and other books), MIKE MANLEY (DRAW! magazine), ERIC NOLEN-WEATHINGTON (MODERN MASTERS), and a host of other comics luminaries who’ve contributed to TwoMorrows’ output over the years. From their first Eisner Award-winning book STREETWISE, through their BRICKJOURNAL LEGO® magazine, up to today’s RETROFAN magazine, every major TwoMorrows publication and contributor is covered with the same detail and affection the company gives to its books and magazines. With an Introduction by MARK EVANIER, Foreword by ALEX ROSS, Afterword by PAUL LEVITZ, and a new cover by TOM McWEENEY! SHIPS NOVEMBER 2019! (224-page FULL-COLOR Trade Paperback) $34.95 • (Digital Edition) $15.95 ISBN: 978-1-60549-092-2 (240-page ULTRA-LIMITED HARDCOVER) $75 Only 125 copies available for sale, with a 16-page bonus Memory Album! HARDCOVER NOT AVAILABLE THROUGH DIAMOND—DIRECT FROM TWOMORROWS ONLY! RESERVE YOURS NOW!

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Published 25 years after the launch of THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR #1, this special SILVER ANNIVERSARY ISSUE shows how Kirby kickstarted the Silver Age of Comics with Challengers of the Unknown, examines how Jack revamped Golden Age legacy characters for the 1960s and beyond, outlines the lasting influence of his signature creation The Silver Surfer, and more! It includes special shout-outs to the fan and pro contributors who’ve helped publisher/editor JOHN MORROW celebrate the life and career of the King of Comics for a quarter century. And echoing John’s fateful choice to start this magazine in 1994, we’ll spotlight PIVOTAL DECISIONS (good and bad) Jack made throughout his comics career. Plus: A Kirby pencil art gallery, regular columnists, a classic 1950s story, and more! The STANDARD EDITION sports an unused Kirby THOR cover with STEVE RUDE’s interpretation of how it looked before alterations, while the DELUXE EDITION adds a silver cardstock outer sleeve featuring the Surfer with RUDE inks. SHIPS WINTER 2020!

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In the latest volume, KURT MITCHELL and ROY THOMAS document the 1940-44 “Golden Age” of comics, a period that featured the earliest adventures of BATMAN, CAPTAIN MARVEL, SUPERMAN, and WONDER WOMAN. It was a time when America’s entry into World War II was presaged Look for the 1945-49 volume by the arrival of such patriotic do-gooders as WILL EISNER’s Uncle Sam, HARRY SHORTEN and in 2020! IRV NOVICK’s The Shield, and JOE SIMON and JACK KIRBY’s Captain America—and teenage culture found expression in a fumbling red-haired high school student named Archie Andrews. But most of all, it was the age of “packagers” like HARRY A CHESLER, and EISNER and JERRY IGER, who churned out material for the entire gamut of genres, from funny animal stories and crime tales, to jungle sagas and science-fiction adventures. Watch the history of comics begin! NOW SHIPPING!

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MAC RABOY Master of the Comics

Beginning with his WPA etchings during the 1930s, MAC RABOY struggled to survive the Great Depression and eventually found his way into the comic book sweatshops of America. In that world of four-color panels, he perfected his art style on such creations as DR. VOODOO, ZORO the MYSTERY MAN, BULLETMAN, SPY SMASHER, GREEN LAMA, and his crowning achievement, CAPTAIN MARVEL JR. Raboy went on to illustrate the FLASH GORDON Sunday newspaper strip, and left behind a legacy of meticulous perfection. Through extensive research and interviews with son DAVID RABOY, and assistants who worked with the artist during the Golden Age of Comics, author ROGER HILL brings Mac Raboy, the man and the artist, into focus for historians to savor and enjoy. This FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER includes never-before-seen photos, a wealth of rare and unpublished artwork, and the first definitive biography of a true Master of the Comics! Introduction by ROY THOMAS! ISBN: 978-1-60549-090-8 • SHIPS AUG. 2019! (160-page FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 • (Digital Edition) $14.95 Roger Hill’s 2017 biography of REED CRANDALL sold out just months after its release—don’t let this one pass you by!Pre-order now!

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creators at the con MONSTER MAKERS WALK AMONG US: Clockwise from right, Basil Gogos, famous Famous Monsters of Filmland cover painter, at New York Comic Con 2015. Bernie Wrightson, co-creator of Swamp Thing and artist of “Jenifer” and numerous illustrations for Frankenstein, at San Diego Comic-Con 2015. Roy Thomas, co-creator of Morbius, the Living Vampire, and Werewolf by Night, and the adapter of Dracula, at San Diego Comic-Con 2011. Len Wein, perhaps best known as the co-creator of Swamp Thing and Wolverine, at San Diego Comic-Con 2012. Walking Dead creator Robert Kirkman at New York Comic Con 2011. At center is Emil Ferris, the latest horror sensation for her mind-blowing and award-winning graphic novel, My Favorite Thing is Monsters, which clinched her the Will Eisner Award for “Best Writer/Artist,” at San Diego Comic-Con 2018.

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Photography by Kendall Whitehouse

KIRBY & LEE: STUF’ SAID (Expanded Second Edition)

After achieving the quickest sell-out in TwoMorrows’ history, we’re going back to press for an EXPANDED SECOND EDITION, including minor corrections, and 16 NEW PAGES of “Stuf’ Said” by the creators of the Marvel Universe! This first-of-its-kind examination, completed just days before STAN LEE’s recent passing, looks back at KIRBY & LEE’s own words, in chronological order, from fanzine, magazine, radio, and television interviews, to paint the most comprehensive and enlightening picture of their relationship ever done—why it succeeded, where it deteriorated, and when it eventually failed. Also here are recollections from STEVE DITKO, WALLACE WOOD, JOHN ROMITA SR., and more Marvel Bullpen stalwarts who worked with them both. Compiled, researched, and edited by publisher JOHN MORROW. SECOND EDITION AVAILABLE AUGUST 2019! (176-page FULL-COLOR trade paperback) $26.95 • (Digital Edition) $12.95 ISBN: 978-1-60549-094-6 • Order at www.twomorrows.com

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coming attractions: cbc #21 in the fall

The Goon’s Twentieth Anniversary! CBC joins ERIC POWELL to celebrate 20 years of his signature character, $9.95

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The Goon! In a long, comprehensive interview, the creator shares about his background, development of the two-fisted character, and plans for the next

A TwoMorrows Publication

No. 21, Fall 2019

two decades! Included with the career-spanning talk is a mouth-watering gallery of rarely seen artwork. Plus CBC editor and author of the new retrospective The Book of Weirdo, Jon B. Cooke, shares a rare new interview with perhaps the greatest cartoonist of all time, R. CRUMB, about the artist’s work on that legendary humor comics anthology. In addition, our Fall issue features an essay by Canadian alternative cartoonist RICK TREMBLES about his late dad, JACK TREMBLAY, a Golden Age comic book artist in the Great White North. Plus a look at DAVE COCKRUM’s work for Aurora Models, with awesome designs. Then JOHN ROMITA SR. shares his appreciation for the

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work of the great comic strip artist MILTON CANIFF. Also look for our usual ERIC ERIC POWELL: POWELL: 20 20 YEARS YEARS OF OF THE THE GOON! GOON!

excellent features by our regular gang of contributors, including (of course) another “Dateline” installment by Our Man HEMBECK! See you in November!

“Building a Better Monster,” which includes the New X-Men co-creator’s

Full-color, 100 pages, $10.95

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2019 • #20

a picture is worth a thousand words

from the archives of Tom Ziuko

#20 • Summer 2019 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

This is my coloring of a recent powerful Batman commission piece by Bill Siewkiewicz. Sometimes the old adage is true: Less is more — TZ

ER EISN RD AWAINEE! NOM

ER EISN RD AWAINEE! M O N

BACK ISSUE #115

BACK ISSUE #116

BACK ISSUE #117

SCI-FI SUPERHEROES! In-depth looks at JIM STARLIN’s Dreadstar and Company, and the dystopian lawman Judge Dredd. Also: Nova, GERRY CONWAY & MIKE VOSBURG’s Starman, PAUL LEVITZ & STEVE DITKO’s Starman, WALTER SIMONSON’s Justice Peace (from the pages of Thor), and GREG POTTER & GENE COLAN’s Jemm, Son of Saturn! With a Dreadstar and Company cover by STARLIN and ALAN WEISS!

SUPERHEROES VS. MONSTERS! Monsters in Metropolis, Batman and the Horror Genre, DOUG MOENCH and KELLEY JONES’ Batman: Vampire, Marvel Scream-Up, Dracula and Godzilla vs. Marvel, DC/Dark Horse Hero/Monster crossovers, and a Baron Blood villain history. With CLAREMONT, CONWAY, DIXON, GIBBONS, GRELL, GULACY, JURGENS, THOMAS, WOLFMAN, and a cover by MICHAEL GOLDEN.

SUPERHERO STAND-INS! John Stewart as Green Lantern, James Rhodes as Iron Man, Beta Ray Bill as Thor, Captain America substitute U.S. Agent, new Batman Azrael, and Superman’s Hollywood proxy Gregory Reed! Featuring NEAL ADAMS, CARY BATES, DAVE GIBBONS, RON MARZ, DAVID MICHELINIE, DENNIS O’NEIL, WALTER SIMONSON, ROY THOMAS, and more, under a cover by SIMONSON.

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MIKE GRELL

LIFE IS DRAWING WITHOUT AN ERASER

Career-spanning tribute covering Legion of Super-Heroes, Warlord, & Green Arrow at DC Comics, and Grell’s own properties Jon Sable, Starslayer, and Shaman’s Tears. Told in Grell’s own words, with PAUL LEVITZ, DAN JURGENS, DENNY O’NEIL, MARK RYAN, & MIKE GOLD. Heavily illustrated! (160-page FULL-COLOR TPB) $27.95 (176-page LTD. ED. HARDCOVER) $37.95 (Digital Edition) $12.95 • Now shipping!

DRAW #36

MIKE HAWTHORNE (Deadpool, Infinity Countdown) interview, YANICK PAQUETTE (Wonder Woman: Earth One, Batman Inc., Swamp Thing) how-to demo, JERRY ORDWAY’s “Ord-Way” of creating comics, JAMAR NICHOLAS reviews the latest art supplies, plus Comic Art Bootcamp by BRET BLEVINS and MIKE MANLEY! May contain nudity for figure-drawing instruction; for Mature Readers Only. (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $4.95 • Ships Fall 2019

ER EISN RD AWAINEE! M O N

ALTER EGO #160

ALTER EGO #161

ALTER EGO #162

REMEMBERING STEVE DITKO! Sturdy Steve at Marvel, DC, Warren, Charlton, and elsewhere! A rare late-1960s Ditko interview by RICHARD HOWELL— biographical notes by NICK CAPUTO— tributes by MICHAEL T. GILBERT, PAUL LEVITZ, BERNIE BUBNIS, BARRY PEARL, ROY THOMAS, et al. Plus FCA, JOHN BROOME, BILL SCHELLY, and more! Spider-Man cover by DITKO!

Full-issue STAN LEE TRIBUTE! ROY THOMAS writes on his more than 50-year relationship with Stan—and shares 21stcentury e-mails from Stan (with his permission, of course)! Art by KIRBY, DITKO, MANEELY, EVERETT, SEVERIN, ROMITA, plus tributes from pros and fans alike, and special sections on Stan by MICHAEL T. GILBERT, BILL SCHELLY, and even the FCA! Vintage cover by KIRBY and COLLETTA!

WILL MURRAY presents an amazing array of possible prototypes of Batman (by artist FRANK FOSTER—in 1932!)—Wonder Woman (by Star-Spangled Kid artist HAL SHERMAN)—Tarantula (by Air Wave artist LEE HARRIS), and others! Plus a rare Hal Sherman interview—MICHAEL T. GILBERT with more on artist PETE MORISI—FCA— BILL SCHELLY—JOHN BROOME—and more! Cover homage by SHANE FOLEY!

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AMERICAN COMIC BOOK COMIC BOOK IMPLOSION ORAL HISTORY OF DC COMICS CHRONICLES: The 1990s AN CIRCA 1978! Marking the 40th anniver-

Year-by-year account of the decade when X-MEN #1 sold 8.1 million copies, IMAGE COMICS was formed, Superman died, Batman had his back broken, and Neil Gaiman’s SANDMAN led to the VERTIGO line of adult comic books. Go behind-thescenes in that era of gimmicky covers, skimpy costumes, and mega-crossovers. By KEITH DALLAS and JASON SACKS.

sary of the “DC Implosion”, one of the most notorious events in comics (which left stacks of completed comic book stories unpublished and spawned Cancelled Comics Cavalcade). Featuring JENETTE KAHN, PAUL LEVITZ, LEN WEIN, MIKE GOLD, and others, plus detailed analysis of how it changed the landscape of comics!

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TwoMorrows. The Future of Comics History.

BRICKJOURNAL #59

RETROFAN #7

KIRBY COLLECTOR #76

KIRBY COLLECTOR #77

STAR WARSTM THEMED BUILDERS! Travel to a galaxy far, far away with JACOB NEIL CARPENTER’S DEATH STAR, the work of MIRI DUDAS, and the LEGO® photography of JAMES PHILIPPART! Plus “AFOLs” by GREG HYLAND, “You Can Build It” instructions by CHRISTOPHER DECK, BrickNerd’s DIY Fan Art with TOMMY WILLIAMSON, Minifigure Customization with JARED K. BURKS, and more!

Featuring a JACLYN SMITH interview, as we reopen the Charlie’s Angels Casebook, and visit the Guinness World Records’ largest Charlie’s Angels collection. Plus: an exclusive interview with funnyman LARRY STORCH, The Lone Ranger in Hollywood, The Dick Van Dyke Show, a vintage interview with Jonny Quest creator DOUG WILDEY, a visit to the Land of Oz, the ultra-rare Marvel World superhero playset, and more!

FATHERS & SONS! Odin/Thor, Zeus/ Hercules, Darkseid/Orion, Captain America/ Bucky, and other dysfunctional relationships, unpublished 1994 interview with GIL KANE eulogizing Kirby, tributes from Jack’s creative “sons” in comics (MUMY, PALMIOTTI, QUESADA, VALENTINO, McFARLANE, GAIMAN, & MILLER), MARK EVANIER, 2018 Kirby Tribute Panel, Kirby pencil art gallery, and more!

MONSTERS & BUGS! Jack’s monster-movie influences in The Demon, Forever People, Black Magic, Fantastic Four, Jimmy Olsen, and Atlas monster stories; Kirby’s work with “B” horror film producer CHARLES BAND; interview with “The Goon” creator ERIC POWELL; Kirby’s use of insect characters (especially as villains); MARK EVANIER and our other regular columnists, Golden Age Kirby story, and a Kirby pencil art gallery!

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Relive The Pop Culture You Grew Up With!

Remember when Saturday morning television was our domain, and ours alone? When tattoos came from bubble gum packs, Slurpees came in superhero cups, and TV heroes taught us to be nice to each other? Those were the happy days of the Sixties, Seventies, and Eighties— our childhood—and that is the era of TwoMorrows’ new magazine RETROFAN!

#5: Interviews with MARK HAMILL and Greatest American Hero’s WILLIAM KATT! Blast off with JASON OF STAR COMMAND! Stop by the MUSEUM OF POPULAR CULTURE! Poke fun at a campy BATMAN COMIC BOOK! Plus: “The First Time I Met Tarzan,” MAJOR MATT MASON, Moon Landing Mania, SNUFFY SMITH at 100 with cartoonist JOHN ROSE, TV Dinners, Celebrity Crushes, and more fun, fab features! NOW SHIPPING! #6: Interviews with crazy creepster SVENGOOLIE and Eddie Munster himself, BUTCH PATRICK! Call on the original Saturday Morning Ghost Busters, with BOB BURNS! Uncover the nutty Naugas! Plus: “My Life in the Twilight Zone,” “I Was a Teenage James Bond,” “My Letters to Famous People,” the ARCHIEDOBIE GILLIS connection, the PINBALL Hall of Fame, Super Collector DAVID MANDEL’s comic art collection, Alien action figures, the RUBIK’S CUBE fad, and more fun, fab features! SHIPS SEPTEMBER 2019!

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RETROFAN #1

RETROFAN #2

RETROFAN #3

RETROFAN #4

THE CRAZY, COOL CULTURE WE GREW UP WITH! LOU FERRIGNO interview, The Phantom in Hollywood, Filmation’s Star Trek cartoon, “How I Met Lon Chaney, Jr.”, goofy comic Zody the Mod Rob, Mego’s rare Elastic Hulk toy, RetroTravel to Mount Airy, NC (the real-life Mayberry), interview with BETTY LYNN (“Thelma Lou” of The Andy Griffith Show), TOM STEWART’s eclectic House of Collectibles, and Mr. Microphone!

HALLOWEEN! Horror-hosts ZACHERLEY, VAMPIRA, SEYMOUR, MARVIN, and an interview with our cover-featured ELVIRA! THE GROOVIE GOOLIES, BEWITCHED, THE ADDAMS FAMILY, and THE MUNSTERS! The long-buried Dinosaur Land amusement park! History of BEN COOPER HALLOWEEN COSTUMES, character lunchboxes, superhero VIEW-MASTERS, SINDY (the British Barbie), and more!

40th Anniversary interview with SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE director RICHARD DONNER, IRWIN ALLEN’s sci-fi universe, Saturday morning’s undersea adventures of Aquaman, horror and sci-fi zines of the Sixties and Seventies, Spider-Man and Hulk toilet paper, RetroTravel to METROPOLIS, IL (home of the Superman Celebration), SEA-MONKEYS®, FUNNY FACE beverages, Superman and Batman memorabilia, & more!

Interviews with the SHAZAM! TV show’s JOHN (Captain Marvel) DAVEY and MICHAEL (Billy Batson) Gray, the GREEN HORNET in Hollywood, remembering monster maker RAY HARRYHAUSEN, the wayout Santa Monica Pacific Ocean Amusement Park, a Star Trek Set Tour, SAM J. JONES on the Spirit movie pilot, British sci-fi TV classic THUNDERBIRDS, Casper & Richie Rich museum, the KING TUT fad, and more!

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