Comic Book Creator #33 by TwoMorrows Publishing

Cover art by Val Mayerik

Howard the Duck, Omega the Unknown TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

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PACIFIC COMICS COMPANION

WORKING WITH DITKO

JACK KIRBY’S DINGBAT LOVE

BEST OF SIMON & KIRBY’S

MAINLINE COMICS

CHRISTOPHER IRVING explores the superhero serials (1941-1952) of Superman, Captain America, Spy Smasher, Captain Marvel, and others, and the comic creators and film-makers who brought them to life! (160-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-119-6

STEPHAN FRIEDT & JON B. COOKE examine the independent that published KIRBY, ARAGONÉS, DITKO, ADAMS, GRELL, plus DAVE STEVENS’ Rocketeer!

JACK C. HARRIS recalls collaborating with STEVE DITKO on The Creeper, Shade, Demon, Wonder Woman, The Fly, & more, plus Ditko’s unused Batman design!

The final complete, unpublished Jack Kirby stories in existence: Two unused 1970s DC DINGBATS OF DANGER STREET tales, plus TRUE-LIFE DIVORCE & SOUL LOVE mags!

Collects JOE SIMON & JACK KIRBY’s 1954-56 series BULLSEYE (the complete run), plus all the Kirby FOXHOLE, POLICE TRAP, and IN LOVE stories, fully restored!

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IT CREPT FROM THE TOMB

CLIFFHANGER!

TEAM-UP COMPANION OUR ARTISTS AT WAR AMERICAN TV COMICS (1940s-1980s)

THE LIFE & ART OF

DAVE COCKRUM

Digs up the best of FROM THE TOMB (the UK’s preeminent horror comics history magazine), with early RICHARD CORBEN art, HP LOVECRAFT, and more!

MICHAEL EURY examines team-up comic books of the Silver and Bronze Ages of Comics in a lushly illustrated selection of informative essays, special features, and trivia-loaded issue-by-issue indexes!

Examines US War comics from EC, DC COMICS, WARREN PUBLISHING, CHARLTON, and more! Featuring KURTZMAN, SEVERIN, DAVIS, WOOD, KUBERT, GLANZMAN, KIRBY, and others!

History of over 300 TV shows and 2000+ comic book adaptations, from well-known series (STAR TREK, PARTRIDGE FAMILY, THE MUNSTERS) to lesser-known shows.

GLEN CADIGAN’s bio of the artist who redesigned the Legion of Super-Heroes and introduced X-Men characters Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Logan!

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(160-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $27.95 HC: $36.95 • (Digital Edition) $14.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-113-4

REED CRANDALL

KIRBY & LEE: STUF’ SAID

TWO-FISTED COMIC ARTIST

JOHN SEVERIN

ALTER EGO COLLECTORS' ITEM CLASSICS

Master of the Comics

Illustrator of the Comics

MAC RABOY

History of Crandall’s life and career, from Golden Age Quality Comics, to Warren war and horror, Flash Gordon, and beyond!

Presents JACK KIRBY and STAN LEE’s own words to examine the complicated relationship of the creators of the Marvel Universe!

Biography of the EC, MARVEL and MAD mainstay, co-creator of American Eagle, and 40+ year CRACKED magazine contributor.

Compiles the sold-out DITKO, KIRBY, and LEE issues, plus new material on each!

Documents the life and career of the master Golden Age artist of Captain Marvel Jr. and other classic characters!

(256-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $13.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-102-8

(176-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $26.95 (Digital Edition) $12.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-094-6

(160-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $14.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-106-6

(256-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $35.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-116-5

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AMERICAN COMIC BOOK CHRONICLES

FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER SERIES

documents each decade of comics history!

8 Volumes covering the 1940s-1990s

TwoMorrows. The Future of Comics History. Phone: 919-449-0344 E-mail: store@twomorrows.com Web: www.twomorrows.com

TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA

Winter 2024 • The Steve Gerber Issue • Number 33

Ye Ed’s Rant: On Gerber, Skrenes, TwoMorrows’ doings at this year’s SDCC, and more!..... 2 COMICS CHATTER

About Our Cover

Stan’s Excelsior Comics: Ye Ed, with the help of brother editor Roy Thomas, uncovers the secret history of Stan Lee’s own comics imprint developed in the mid-’90s............. 3

Cover art and colors by VAL MAYERIK

Incoming: One reader wishes we talked to Don McGregor about his Spider-Man tale..... 14 Cooke’s Column: Chatting about Philip Bentley, Tim Hensley, and pal Denis Kitchen..... 15

Howard the Duck, Man-Thing, Omega TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Hembeck’s Dateline: Fred’s “Perfect Day” in 1964, with Vic, Boris, and Richie ............... 17 Ten Questions: Darrick Patrick chills out with writer Jonathan Chance............................ 18 Comics in the Library: Richard Arndt on books that took long journeys to the shelf...... 20 Once Upon Long Ago: Steve Thompson goes underground and digs the comix!........... 21 Son of the Flame: Part two of Greg Biga’s profile of artist Mike Deodato, Jr., where we learn, with insights from Tom Brevoort and Rain Beredo, of the artist’s fall and rise..... 22 THE MAIN EVENTS Above: Our cover is actually based on a commissioned painting by Val Mayerik that we found on the internet. When the artist said he had no scan of the piece, he agreed to draw us a replica, this one featuring Omega the Unknown as a puppet in reference to the Mary Skrenes interview herein. Many thanks to Val for producing the cover illustration for this, our Stephen Ross Gerber special ish!

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Mary Skrenes: Dark Figure of Mystery (and Friend of Ol’ Gerber!) CBC’s awesomely entertaining and lengthy interview with the 1970s comics writer, who collaborated with her pal Steve Gerber on Howard the Duck and creating Omega the Unknown with the Gerbs! From growing up in Las Vegas to the wild ’70s Bullpen scene to doing Hard Time with Gerber, this is Mary’s first comprehensive Q-&-A ever!.46 Straight Outta Cleveland: Chrissie Hynde’s “Precious” and a certain Howard T. Duck... 70 Val Mayerik and His Fowl Connection: The artist talks about his life and that bird..... 73 BACK MATTER Creators at the Con: Kendall Whitehouse clix comics peeps showing off their stuff....... 78 Coming Attractions: Dan Jurgens on the death and life (of Superman) and more!........ 79 A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words: Tom Ziuko shares a Geo. Pérez masterwork!... 80 EDITOR’S NOTE: Note that some images in this issue have been enhanced with software. Right: Detail of Howard the Duck from a 1978 Marvel Comics house ad, drawn by Gene Colan and Klaus Janson.

Comic Book Artist Vol. 1 & 2 are available as digital downloads from twomorrows.com Comic Book Creator ™ is published quarterly by TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Dr., Raleigh, NC 27614 USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Jon B. Cooke, editor. John Morrow, publisher. Comic Book Creator editorial offices: P.O. Box 601, West Kingston, RI 02892 USA. E-mail: jonbcooke@aol.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Four-issue subscriptions: $53 US, $78 International, $19 Digital. All characters are © their respective copyright owners. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter ©2024 Jon B. Cooke/ TwoMorrows. Comic Book Creator is a TM of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. ISSN 2330-2437. Printed in China. FIRST PRINTING.

TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR is a proud joint production of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows

Steve Gerber and the Kindness of Strangers Presenting a transcript of a wonderful and informative radio interview with the revolutionary comic-book scribe conducted in early 1994 on the New York City WBAI “Nuff Said” talk show, hosted by Ken Gale and Ed Menja. Featuring some wacky call-in listeners, it spotlights the innovative writer in peak form and at his candid best.......... 30

This issue is dedicated to the memories of JON BERK, JOE MATT, and TED RICHARDS ™

Subversive Tactics JON B. COOKE

Editor & Designer

JOHN MORROW

Publisher & Consulting Editor

GREG BIGA

Associate Editor

VAL MAYERIK

Cover Artist & Colorist

RICHARD J. ARNDT TOM ZIUKO STEVEN THOMPSON MICHAEL AUSHENKER Contributing Editors

J.D. KING

CBC Cartoonist Emeritus

TOM ZIUKO

CBC Colorist Supreme

RONN SUTTON

CBC Illustrator

KEN MEYER, JR. ROB SMENTEK CBC Proofreader

GREG PRESTON

CBC Contributing Photographer

KENDALL WHITEHOUSE

CBC Convention Photographer

RICHARD ARNDT FRED HEMBECK DARRICK PATRICK STEVEN THOMPSON TOM ZIUKO CBC Columnists

To contact CBC, please email jonbcooke@aol.com or snail-mail Comic Book Creator c /o Jon B. Cooke, P.O. Box 601 West Kingston, RI 02892 2

First, let me say I am a massive fan of Stephen Ed as he drove to Gale’s New York City apartment Ross Gerber’s writing, and always have to retrieve the tape and even transferred the since his work on “Man-Thing,” in the Fear audio into digital format for our transcriber. comic book. And my personal affection Many thanks, D.D.! (Readers will find proof for the late scribe runs deep as he on page 16 that Donovan and yours truly go always expressed an appreciation for the way back — and recently met again!) work I did in Comic Book Artist. “I really Alas, as mentioned last ish, CBC nor The enjoy what you’re doing with this magaCharlton Companion scored an Eisner this year, zine and the fact that you’re documenting the but San Diego Comic-Con was still the bestest show history of this medium,” he told me in 2002, ever for yours truly! Not only did Ye Pub John Moradding, “I think it’s incredibly important.” row and I scheme up new book plans, but we both But, truth be told, my initial motivation had extended chats with TwoMorrows readers in producing this Gerber issue was to finally and many others. Lemme tell ya, having copies and I do mean finally! — get into print my of The Pacific Comics Companion, the book interview with Mary Skrenes, herself a comic I co-wrote with Stephan Friedt, purchased book writer of the 1970s and frequent by both Schanes brothers — the pair who Gerber collaborator. Since reading started the furshlugginer company! — was her writing credit in Omega the enormously gratifying (as were the subseUnknown, the outstanding series quent raves they gave the tome after they she co-created with then-boyfriend gave it a read the night before!) Gerber, my curiosity about the The word “chill” best describes SDCC woman scribe has been endless this year and we’re certain the attendees’ and, with the help and enthuoverwhelmingly calm and friendly presence siastic support of Gerbs and her was due to Hollywood being absent this pal Alan Weiss — a friendship that year because of the writer and actor strikes. stretched back to their college days (And the charmingly home-made look to so at the University of Nevada — I was many costumes this year make one suspect able to get in touch and we spoke the major studios must typically subsidize on Super Bowl Sunday, 2005. the slickly-attired cosplayers that usually Steve Gerber by Ronn Sutton populate the event.) During our extensive conversation, I found her to be wickedly funny, smart, and completely At Comic-Con, Ye Ed also confabbed with Colin Turner (for engaging, so you can imagine how eager I was to get this rare what the Last Gasp publisher called his longest meeting of the interview in print. But, after waiting for her copyedit of the show!) and we’re working fast and furious on the Last Gasp transcript, I worried she might fear that she was revealing too history-slash-Ron Turner retrospective, which we’re hoping to much in print. (In the middle of one of his own particularly re- have out at next year’s SDCC! Hanging with Ronzo was mos’ vealing blog postings about the heartache of romance, Gerber def’ a show highlight… not to mention spending time with parenthetically wrote in 2005, “I have to stop and smile for a Carol Tyler, David Siegel, Charlie Kochman, Eddie Campbell, moment, picturing Mary — my writing partner on Hard Time [a Wendy and Richard Pini, Mat Klickenstein, Dan Didio, Bill mid-2000s Vertigo title] — reading this, appalled. She’s such a Stout, Steve Ringgenberg, Mark Evanier, Bill Leach, Lenny private person that when she gets back to town she’ll probably Schwartz, Michelle Nolan, and, of course, our booth mate, castigate me for having just revealed that she’s such a private Jake Modica, and fellow TwoMorrows’ editor (and my Eisner person. I’m sure she’s completely aghast that anyone would Award plus-one) Keith Dallas! The show was a complete blast! parade their emotions around in public like this. Well, yeah, I Hope you enjoy the Excelsior! Comics feature that starts am too — but what the f*ck?”) on the next page, as I visited Rascally Roy Thomas at his South So, in recent years, I nudged Skrenes to approve the Carolina spread, back in the late spring, to score the exclusive transcript and the blessed final go-ahead came this past inside story of Stan Lee’s ill-fated 1990s comic book line. March, and I immediately set into motion this Gerber tribute. Mail has been picking up as of late, but please don’t As prepared as I was to write an extended biographical essay hesitate to send in any thoughts you have about this ish and on the man, as I did for CBC #11’s Gil Kane retrospective, I the mag in general. We’re doing our darndest to keep up the can’t thank David Donovan enough for offering Ken Gale and quarterly schedule — not perfect, as my feature writing can Ed Menja’s informative and entertaining radio interview with slow things up — but I sincerely hope, however delayed, CBC is Gerber from 1994. Donovan literally went the distance for Ye worth the wait. But you tell me what you think, okay? Thanks!

cbc contributors

Dell Barras Philip Bentley Rain Beredo Tom Brevoort

Kurt Busiek Jonathan Chance Tom DeFalco Mike Deodato, Jr.

David Donovan Tim Hensley Denis Kitchen Alan Light

Elliot S. Maggin Tom Mason Rob McCallum Moss Plaine

— Ye Crusading Editor jonbcooke@aol.com

Cory Sedlmeier Roy Thomas Rob Tokar Marv Wolfman

PLEASE SEE OUR LIST OF THANKS FOR THE GERBER SECTION ON PG. 39

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

CBC Color Portrait Artist

Ye Ed confesses to a bit of devious subterfuge with this “Gerber ish”

This issue is dedicated to the memories of JON BERK,

up front

Stan’s Excelsior Comics

The inside story of the ill-fated mid-1990s comic book line created by Stan “The Man” Lee by JON B. COOKE There in the twilight cold and gray, Lifeless, but beautiful, he lay, And from the sky, serene and far, A voice fell like a falling star, Excelsior! — “Excelsior” [1841], Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

All characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Excelsior! TM POW! Entertainment, LLC.

The Man, he was obviously excited about it, enough so to trumpet the new line’s apparent impending arrival in the annual of note among his fellow newspaper comic strip professionals. There it was, on page 166 of The National Cartoonists Society Album of 1996: an announcement to make envious his peers regarding his own line of comic magazines: “After two decades, Stan is still writing the Spider-Man newspaper strip,” it read, “and is about to launch Excelsior Comics, his own imprint for Marvel.” Stan, of course, was Stan “The Man” Lee, fabled impresario of Marvel Comics, and that new brand — named for Lee’s signature phrase, which was probably derived from Longfellow’s samenamed poem* (the final stanza quoted above) — was a small but ambitious imprint that, during Marvel’s tumultuous 1990s, would be fully developed yet, alas, never live to see the light of day.

When asked by the Rock Island Argus entertainment editor about the origin of his one-word sign-off, Lee explained, “I love using unique expressions and I was always trying to come up with ones that are new and distinctive. I started using ‘nuff said,’ but then I noticed the competition began doing the same thing. So then I switched to ‘Face front!’ and a few others, and they kept copying them. So finally I wanted to come up with something they couldn’t figure out or copy, and I came up with ‘excelsior.’ Everything about it seemed to work. I liked the sound of it; I liked that it * According to my copy of The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary [1971], the word had a dubious origin: “The adverbial meaning (= ‘upwards’) commonly given to the motto cannot be justified by Latin grammar. According to [Longfellow’s biography], the poet was at first unaware of the solecism [misusage] in the motto as thus interpreted, and, when it was pointed out to him, suggested the words might be taken to stand for Scopus meus excelsior ets, ‘My goal is higher.’” Referring to it being established in 1778 as the motto on the seal of the State of New York, the dictionary shared, “It is not clear whether the original use on the seal is a blunder, or whether it was meant as an abbreviation for some grammatically admissible phrase.” COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

meant ‘upward and onward’; I liked that it was kind of an obscure word, and I don’t think the competitors were smart enough or verbose enough to get it and copy it. And I was right. It really caught on and became kind of a signature phrase for myself and for Marvel Comics. And now we actually have a comics line called Excelsior Comics.” By the time Sean Leary’s Q-&-A saw print on Dec. 24, 1995, Lee had become ever more frustrated with the production of the four titles that comprised the Excelsior line. “Stan had wanted to get the new books out for a while now,” Ronin Ro related in Tales to Astonish: Jack Kirby, Stan Lee, and the American Comic Book Revolution [2004], “but Marvel was trying to license the characters to a company that made video games. Until that deal was signed, nothing would happen. The delay was getting to him — he’d been developing Excelsior Comics for a year now — but Marvel executives said he simply had to wait until the right time.” BACK TO BASICS? A few months before a fateful final decision was made back in the Marvel Entertainment Group corporate offices, Lee expressed his dismay over violence in comics of that era. “When you talk about how much darker, or rougher things have gotten,” he told a Pittsburgh Post-Gazette feature writer, “I’m not happy with it, because the whole world has gotten darker and, along with it, movies, television, and your family newspaper.” He continued, “I will admit that, in today’s comics, there doesn’t seem to be as many different emotions. It’s all angst and anger. Eventually, my guess is, the public will get tired of this one-note treatment by every comic-book company, though I think Marvel is less guilty of it than others.” The newspaper revealed, citing his co-creators of an earlier decade, “Lee hopes to recover a bit of the magic he, Kirby, and Ditko had in the ’60s with his own Excelsior Comics line, slated to debut in ’96. The imprint will be distributed by Marvel.” But any impression that the books would be unlike the darker, rougher Image Comics and some return to the wholesome, G-rated milieu of Jolly Jack, Sturdy Steve,and Smilin’ Stan would be wrong, said Kurt Busiek, who contributed to the Excelsior line. “No, I got exactly the opposite impression. If I remember correctly, all the series premises had some sort of dark, gritty, edgy aspect to them, like Stan was very much trying to play to a modern audience.”

Above: The logo for Stan Lee’s Excelsior comics line, intended to be a sub-imprint of Marvel, which was developed between 1994–96, but was deep-sixed by unknown parties despite much work being completed on the four titles. Inset left: Lee’s bio blurb from the 1996 National Cartoonist Society Album. Below: Roy Thomas (left) and Lee smile for the camera while displaying the massive Taschen-published tome, 75 Years of Marvel [2014].

Busiek, who only recently had successfully melded the retro with the modern, as writer of Alex Ross and his smash hit mini-series, Marvels,* thought Lee’s target was off. “His sense of the audience was about ten years behind the times. I think I said to someone at the time that the Excelsior books were going to feel like throwbacks, but like ’80s throwbacks rather than ’60s throwbacks.”

This page: When the 1990s arrived, the notion of Marvel publisher Stan Lee having his own sub-imprint at the House of Ideas was gestating. Though the initial foray, Marvel World of Tomorrow, was when the line’s de facto creative director John Byrne quit, the concepts would develop to become Marvel’s 2099 line of books set in the future. Of the four initial titles, Lee would write seven issues of Ravage 2099, a wholly original character he created. Above is Marvel Age #117 [Oct. 1992] promoting 2099 (art by Paul Ryan), and below are early designs for the debut characters..

* Busiek told this writer, “After Marvels came out, Stan called me at home to tell me he thought I was a genius. It was a very flattering call, although it took me a minute or so to shake the idea that this was simply a prank being pulled by someone who did the best Stan impression I’d ever heard. But I think Stan must have really liked it — he didn’t have to call, after all.” The award-winning scribe didn’t like the word, “retro,” used to characterize his series, which told the ’60s “Marvel saga” as seen through the eyes of average folk. “We were telling a story involving older Marvel continuity, but we weren’t doing it in a way that re-created the style of those old books, either in writing or art. Our approach was pretty modern, even if our source material was old.” 4

Vandal: “Top agent and most skilled fighter” of Securicom, “the leading law-and-morality enforcement agency in the year 2057” [Excelsior handbook]. A cross between Arnold Schwarzenegger and Arthur “Fonzie” Fonzarelli, this luxuriantly maned and smarmy gent is “vain, pompous, thrill-seeking, and girl crazy.” ** Roy Thomas, who had long urged Ye Ed to include a feature article on Excelsior in CBC, provided this magazine with a wealth of items from his time as freelancer working on Lee’s aborted comic book line. Many thanks to my fellow TwoMorrows editor! #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Marvel Age, Marvel 2099 TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

THE EXCELSIORVERSE The notion of Excelsior Comics looks to have first implemented in at least summer 1994, as a fax dated Sept. 19 of that year was transmitted by aforementioned Lee E-I-C successor Roy Thomas.** “First of all,” Thomas wrote to Lee and Excelsior senior editor, Rob Tokar, who had been hired in August, “Congratulations again, Stan, on finally getting a chance to do what I was always hoping you’d do while I lived in Los Angeles, namely, get a ‘Marvel West’ branch going. And congratulations to Rob on becoming the other half of its immediate editorial staff. I know you’ll do well.” Thomas had resided in L.A. between mid-1976 and late ’91, having arrived nearly four years before Lee settled in Beverly Hills, and, in fact, he had been urging Lee to launch an imprint during their semi-frequent talks in the City of Angels throughout the ’80s. DAYS OF BOOM AND BUST “Before Excelsior got started,” Thomas told Jim Amash, “I’d spent In terms of the business, the more than a decade urging Stan to start up his own comics line 1990s was among the most as a separate Marvel West Coast imprint! Back in the ’80s, when I volatile decades in the history of wasn’t working for Marvel, but he and I both lived in L.A., I’d bring the American comic book. There it up when we talked on the phone or had lunch.” were highs: in 1991, Jim Lee As Thomas had moved to South Carolina in ’91 with his wife, and Chris Claremont’s X-Men Dann, to create their veritable menagerie on a 40-acre spread — #1 became the best-selling Thomas describes it today as “40 acres and a pool”! comic book of all time, with 8.1 — he was a little perturbed, as he shared with million copies sold and, the year Amash, “I actually felt a bit frustrated that following, DC shipped over six finally, in 1994, he decides to do a line of million copies of Superman #75, comics — years after I’ve moved to South the “death” of the character. Carolina!” Thomas then mused, with a Plus, dynamic new publishers chuckle, “Maybe he was trying to tell stepped into the field, including me something.” Image and Valiant. Also Tundra, The Excelsior line-up was to start modTopps, Vertigo, and Dark Horse were making critical impacts. estly as a quartet of titles, each featuring And there were, of course, the lows: the truth being that interconnecting characters in a shared uniStan Lee behind those mentioned record-breaking sales were speculators, verse, with crossovers envisioned for the future — many from outside comics fandom — one estimate had Nov. though with zero connection to the Marvel super-hero 17, 1992, the day the “Death of Superman” arrived in stores, realm — and all created by Lee in his “Marvel West” office within generating $30 million for the comics industry — investors who just the New World Building. The four titles were to be: as quickly vanished from the stores as they realized the boom was Omega: The character, originally named “Nimbus,” is described unsustainable. Chuck Rozanski, head of Mile High Comics, memothusly by the Excelsior handbook: “He’s mean, he’s bitter, he’s rized a specific day he recognized when boom had turned to bust: angry, he’s disgruntled, and he’s Earth’s only hope for peace. “I can even give you a date: it’s April 23, 1993,” he told George Omega is a hard-boiled, excommunicated ‘angel.’” The longKhoury, in Image Comics: The Road to Independence [2007]. “That haired, strapping fellow (and quite literally, too, as his character was the day that ‘Superman Returns’ shipped… these books were design has the dude clad in straps aplenty!) is decked out in the kiss of death.” It is believed upwards of 1,000 direct sales “energy projection discs” and wields a “sword of fire.” Series comic shops closed in the first quarter of 1994. tagline: “The Avenging Angel.” The writer and artist assigned to Despite all of this pandemonium — and probably fueled by the the series were Kurt Busiek and Scottish artist Rob McCallum. phenomenal success of Image Comics, the creator-owned line run Zarlok: “One-fifth of the interstellar strike team known as the by fan-favorite super-star artists which launched in 1992 — Stan Matrix, [he] is proud of his role as a fierce, unstoppable warrior. Lee had received the go-ahead in the second quarter of ’94 to When he’s commanded to slaughter innocent Earthlings, develop his own comic book line (to be owned by Marvel). After all, he crashes the Matrix’s ship rather than participate in their why shouldn’t the number one celebrity comic creator, the most dishonorable butchery.” [Excelsior handbook] First named famous of them all, have his own line of books? Even with the able “Kinja,” and then “Zodiax,” he’s another well-built fellow, though participation of a squad of veteran comic book writers from start to with two guises: one wearing a leather jacket, biker gloves, and its abrupt finish, a team which consisted of his personal pick back headband; the other, armored, masked regalia. (In a twist, Stan in 1972 to replace his own self as Marvel editor-in-chief, as well as has Zarlok become a comics writer as a way to warn humanity Marvel’s then recently-departed E-I-C, and a white-hot fan-favorite of alien invasion!) Series tagline: “Trapped on Planet Earth.” writer of the day, it proved to be a remarkably long process. Assigned to Thomas and Sal Buscema (with inks by Tom Palmer).

Series tagline: “The Man from the Future.” Writer Tom DeFalco and artist Bill Jaaska were slated as storytellers. Hellion: Bent on avenging her murdered L.A.P.D. dad, Jamie Barada is “inundated with unknown energies that mysteriously endowed her with” super-powers to battle “the largest corporation in the world”! Scantily-clad (in a “cotton party dress,” a gift from her dead father she wears symbolically), Hellion rides a 1950 Harley Davidson custom-chromed Fat Boy and is able to lift up to two tons! Series tagline: “She-Devil of the Savage Streets.” This title was set to be written by Stan Lee and drawn by Argentine artist Leo Duranona

Excelsior! TM POW! Entertainment, LLC. Prime, Malibu Comics, all associated characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

At first, the setting for the shared scenario was to take place a decade into the future (though coordinating that idea among the writers was problematic, so the notion was soon abandoned), as related in the Excelsior handbook: “The books all take place on Earth, roughly 10 years in the future. Pollution has become such a crippling problem that it is having numerous adverse effects on the unborn as well as those already living in it. As a result, many radical treatments and therapies are being used and tested,and often these cures are attempted on a genetic level. Sometimes the cures take, sometimes they don’t, and sometimes they just create an even more bizarre circumstances [sic] than the diseases.” Interestingly, the setting of an ecological dystopia was a theme Lee prominently included in a “sub-imprint” project he initiated at the House of Ideas just a few years before. STAN LEE 2099 The publisher’s itch to create his own imprint within the Marvel confines stretched back to at least 1990, Rob Tokar when he announced in “Stan’s Soapbox” plans for “a whole new super-hero world” — tentatively called The Marvel World of Tomorrow — which was initially envisioned with John Byrne as editor-in-chief (and chief artist and writer), a position answerable to Lee. “It’s something I’ve wanted to produce for a long, long time,” Lee shared in Marvel Age #91 [Aug. 1990]. After Byrne drew a 64-page one-shot intended to introduce the heroes in the “near-future” concept only to quit over what he insisted was unexpected interference from other Marvel editors, the project Ravage 2099, the second of the Marvel 2099 shifted from Lee’s oversight and, in a few years, it morphed into releases, to be included in Byrne and his World a proposed Marvel 2093 line — quickly renamed Marvel 2099 — of Tomorrow is unknown, but, after Lee’s long which launched in late 1992.* hiatus, fans took notice that he started comic book writing again At this early stage, Lee referenced former Marvel editor-infor eight issues of the title [#1–8, Dec. ’92–July ’93]. And the grim, chief Jim Shooter’s short-lived 1986–89 sub-imprint in that same gritty milieu Lee developed for Ravage 2099 — with both character issue of Marvel Age: ”You may remember another New Universe which we published a few years back. That was an effort to create a and setting that could have fit snugly into the “Excelsiorverse,” as whole new mythology totally independent of the Marvel characters an issue even featured a character named “Zarlokk”! — but one of or the Marvel mystique. Well, the universe which we’re now about four titles (that included Spider-Man 2099) launching the 2099 to lay on you will be a completely different concept. It won’t ignore concept, a line that expanded to even more series, lasting until the mid-’90s (and, now and again, revived from time to time). the way-out world of Marvel personalities; it’ll simply build upon But, for whatever reason, Marvel 2099 was not the multi-series them, using them as the foundation, the stepping stones to a line Lee had long wished to helm and, rather than one man, it took world of the not-too-distant future, a world where a new generaa quintet of editors back in the New York offices to develop the tion of super-beings has been born, although some of your old “2099 universe” framework, a process that would finally bear fruit favorites will still be on hand!” two years after Lee first trumpeted the World of Tomorrow news. Reportedly, after all of his promoting, Lee was disappointed when the World of Tomorrow plans fell apart, so corporate higherMOVING TO MALIBU? ups insisted that some futuristic multi-title series be developed for the Man to maintain interest. Now, whether Lee had developed Another West Coast comic book outfit, one established in 1986 during the industry’s black-&-white boom, was Malibu Comics, run by publisher David Olbrich, * Paul Ryan, who would later draw Ravage 2099 #1–7 [Dec. ’92—June ’93], recalled Lee in late 1991. “While we were at dinner,” Ryan said, “he editor-in-chief Chris Ulm, and creative director Tom Mason, with the financial backing of ambitious explained his plans to do a series of Marvel comics set in the future… investor Scott Rosenberg. Malibu, along with [and] he was going to launch it as a graphic novel.” Also friendly with its sub-imprints, plugged away to eventually John Byrne, Ryan said, “Apparently there were creative differences. become among the top five comics publishers and It didn’t work out. John walked away with the graphic novel he had worked on. He later published it as John Byrne’s 2112. So I felt bad that it struck pay dirt when it became the “publisher Stan pretty much wasted his time there. He wasn’t treated too well.” of record” for Image Comics in early 1992. After COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

Above: Character drawings from the Excelsior bible, with creative teams assigned noted. Below: The Ultraverse head super-hero, Prime [#1, June ’93], and the Malibu Comics logo.

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Ultraforce, Avengers TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Ken Bald page TM & © the respective copyright holder.

Above: Courtesy of Roy Thomas, this page by Golden Age great Ken Bald appears to be an Excelsior Comics try-out character. The artist worked at Timely Comics under the direction of Lee back in the 1940s. Below: Reportedly the only time one of the Excelsior characters actually made it into print was via a George Pérez-drawn double-page centerspread in Ultraforce Avengers #1 [Oct. ’95], the Ultraverse-Marvel team-up where appears a small rendition of a sword-wielding Omega! This detail is from the original art.

the two entities severed their Ulm was with me. Terry had been talking with Stan as Excelsior lucrative arrangement in 1993, developed. Terry said nobody at Marvel in New York had any Malibu chose to create its own bandwidth to deal with Stan because he required a lot of attention super-hero universe — the Uland was on the West Coast. Terry thought that Malibu could be traverse — and to adapt some of Stan’s West Coast base, and it would be easy for him to come to our its properties for other media, office at any time, and we could handle things on Marvel’s behalf. particularly video gaming. Terry will almost certainly deny this now, of course, but he did say While Lee was developing to me that he didn’t think the books were viable. He said it was his new line, Malibu had been something that Stan wanted to do and the company needed to put up for sale after a major keep Stan happy. Terry wasn’t sure he wanted the Marvel imprint investor of the California firm, on the books and thought that the Malibu imprint might produce sensing the bloated comic book better sales. I have no written proof of that, though, so it’s his word market was poised to collapse, against mine.” needed to divest and recoup its Tom DeFalco was skeptical about all the talk about Marvel’s investment before any foreseen interest in Malibu. “There were a lot of rumors,” he told Reed Tuckcrash. Said to have been er, for the book, Slugfest: Inside the Epic 50-Year Battle Between losing $200,000 a month since Marvel and DC [2017], “but none of them made any sense. If you December 1993, Malibu had to were interested in computer coloring, all you had to do was buy find a new owner… and fast! up-to-date computers. They also said the Malibu stuff appealed to DC Comics, seeing that a an older audience than we did. That was bull. Nothing they said merger with Malibu would be made any sense to me.” a way to establish a West Coast Despite Marvel’s promise to keep the new acquisition a viaoffice and thus ease corporate blebrand, the last Malibu title appeared in 1996 and the imprint pressure to have the entire com- and its Ultraverse then disappeared for good. “I recall making the ics division moved to L.A., was point to Scott [Rosenberg],” then DC publisher Paul Levitz recently negotiating a merger. Just as shared, “that, under DC, the Malibu properties would be valued the details were being settled, and live on (as has proved the case with the WildStorm properties Marvel, fearful of the shame from that acquisition). I predicted, correctly, that under Marvel’s of being ranked second in the then ownership they’d simply vanish.” comic book business, jumped in and made Malibu an offer it couldn’t refuse, one to the tune of ASSIGNMENT: EXCELSIOR $15 million. Everything was finalized by November, 1994. DeFalco, the previously mentioned Marvel E-I-C who had left that In the February, 1995, issue of Wizard [#42], Marvel president position, recalled he had advice for Marvel editor Rob Tokar, who and COO Terry Stewart gushed about their purchase of the West had sought his opinion about whether to accept the Excelsior gig Coast comics company. “Marvel liked the state-of-the-art computer when Lee offered the job. “I recommended that he should take coloring group that [Malibu president] Scott [Rosenberg] it,” DeFalco said, “because, any time I worked with Stan, I had developed and what it could mean to the upgradalways came away smarter afterward. On whatever projing of quality in Marvel comics. We were attracted to ect we were working on together, Stan was always an the Ultraverse characters, and the organization that incredible teacher, even though he never thought Scott had built… partly because, in the future, it of himself as such. So I told Rob, ‘Working with will help us launch things like Excelsior Comics.” Stan, you’re going to come away having learned a Stewart added, “Malibu gives Marvel a lot of stuff you wouldn’t have otherwise learned.’” strong West Coast presence and provides a center While an undergrad at La Salle University, of gravity in a part of the country where a lot of Tokar had started his comics career as a Marvel freelancers live… Malibu’s licensed products were intern and was soon in charge of letters pages as appealing, but the characters, the organization, [and] new assistant editor. He went on to be given five titles Roy Thomas West Coast location were more compelling.” as full-fledged editor, including Alpha Flight and SpectacTom Mason, then Malibu creative director, took excep- ular Spider-Man. In August 1994, after conferring with DeFalco, tion to Stewart’s “PR spin,” saying it was the threat he accepted Lee’s offer and moved to California to become senior of dropping to second place that drove the sale: editor of the line. In that role, of course, he was the guy at the West “[Marvel owner Ron] Perelman bought Malibu Los Angeles office keeping in constant contact with the crew of out of fear that his empire might collapse a freelancers, though the boss — 71 at that time they started Excelsior little if he didn’t. Simple as that.” And Mason — was certainly hands-on as editor-in-chief of the project. also shared his insider perspective after MalLee was determined to instill his line with certain concepts, ibu was bought by Marvel. “Terry [Stewart] including that it was important for the titles to include a female was looking for ways to expand Malibu’s headliner and so he chose to write Hellion himself. In February capabilities and make a profit away from the 1995, he told The Fresno Bee, “They’re super-heroes as you’ve Ultraverse. One of those was to look closely at never seen them before. The star is a woman, and women will be doing Playboy Comics. That was something that playing very significant roles in the other three books.” The Bee was floated around the Marvel offices as competinoted, “Lee finds it fun to create new characters,” quoting Lee: “I tion to Penthouse Comix, but nobody at Marvel editorial can’t wait to get to the office each morning and throw myself into wanted to do it. By the time this came to the front, Terry was it. Everyone’s raring to go.” And, later that year, he mentioned to gone and [successor] Jerry Calabrese pushed that onto Malibu. I The Asbury Park Press, “This new series will be a forum for new hehad a couple of meetings with Playboy’s people, including [cartoon roes and heroines, and not part of the Marvel Universe. One out of editor] Michelle Urry. The project never went anywhere, though.” the four books will star a female. That’s the way of the world now.” Mason continued, “Another was Excelsior Comics by Stan. I was Yet, instead of portraying women as serious characters of in the meeting with Terry and I think either Dave Olbrich or Chris diverse stature and unique appearance, the unfortunate emphasis

Zarlok TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

was overwhelmingly on their physiques in the Excelsiorverse… well, mostly on their exaggerated bosoms and butts, to ludicrous extreme. (Though, truth said, in those days, the entire industry was equally guilty of objectifying the female form to ludicrous extreme.) Perhaps sensitive to the controversies surrounding who were the creators of the Marvel Universe, Lee insisted on explicit and singular creator-credit for the entire Excelsior line, as to leave no doubt. Thomas said, “He wanted to make certain that he was counted as the creator of everything, the origins or, at least, the general concepts. That way there was no question if I were to come along later and say I originated it. (Though, as the writer, as far as I’m concerned, because I wrote it, I feel like I’m a co creator of Zarlok anyway.). But Stan didn’t want anybody to say they were the creator or co-creator, particularly (and I wouldn’t have done that while he was around).” Beyond choosing the writers and artists who were to diligently bring his three other titles to life, there’s evidence that Lee was considering other comics veterans to write for Excelsior. Elliot S. Maggin remembered “dancing around, talking to Stan about writing for his new imprint,” plus Marv Wolfman has the vaguest of recollections: “I barely remember Excelsior since it never actually happened. I’m not sure my memory on it is true or not, but I think I was brought in to work on an X-Men group type of project. But I can’t even remember its name. All I remember is, I think, I felt the material was sort of ‘been there, done that.’” (Roy Thomas, who shared a comics page that he said was an Excelsior try-out by former Timely bullpenner Ken Bald, actively encouraged Lee to hire Herb Trimpe, whose Marvel assignments were then drying up.)

he felt the work submitted was being excessively edited by Lee. “It wasn’t a pleasant experience to have Stan call me [with changes] and, by that time, I was just independent enough that I didn’t automatically give way every time he wanted a change. I didn’t argue about his edits, but would just tell him I thought it was just fine as it was. I wasn’t going to give in that much. Sure, I worried that he might get rid of me but, on the other hand, I felt my own style had been reasonably successful. So it wasn’t a real pleasure to work with him particularly.” Asked if he might know the thinking behind Excelsior, Thomas responded, “I don’t know. Except I’d like to think some of it was the same reason I kept trying to instill in Stan, which is that he ought to be doing something on his own. And he had a little time on his hands.” Thomas added, “I think he just wanted something to do. Obviously, he was going to try to make some money out of it, too, but I never really heard that much about his BACK IN THE SADDLE WITH SAL reasons. So I can only guess he just decided to do Thomas, who, as mentioned, had been prodding it. He came up with the idea that there would be the Man to start a Marvel West back in the ’80s, the four titles and [the characters] would come was maybe the first Lee chose to call and offer a together somewhere around there. But he had no writing gig on one of the books. Today, Thomas exact immediate plans.” remembers, “I was willing to help out and do any Thomas continued, “You got four different editorial work that he needed [over the years], writer-and-artist teams. Most of them were newer but it just never got anywhere. And I don’t think he guys. I was the only one stuck with an old veteran, so pushed for it. I don’t know whatever exactly made him to decide suddenly, in the middle of the ’90s, to do it. But Sal Buscema Zarlok looked the most old-fashioned of the four books, but not just because of my writing maybe, but because [penciler] Sal I just suddenly got a call from him saying that he was going to do [Excelsior] and it was going to be four books, and that I could write [Buscema] had a very standard comic-book look to his work compared to the other two or three guys, who are younger, probably one. Of course, I was overjoyed to do it.” with a more contemporary look than Sal. So obviously, Sal was the The writer — who didn’t much like the original name of the character Lee made up, Kinja, nor the moniker settled upon, Zarlok artist Stan wanted.” Buscema was nearing 60 years old at the time he took on the — probably worked more intensely on his assignment than the Excelsior assignment and he was happy to work with Roy Thomas other scribes. He said, “The funny thing is, I did much more than anybody else with the other three books, because, as you saw, one again, with whom he collaborated on The Avengers in the late book was totally completed and was even done in what amounted 1960s, where the pair created the Squadron Sinister together. “I thought Roy was a really nice guy,” Buscema told Jim Amash for to make-readies, finished colored pages.” Before the end came, Sal Buscema: Comics’ Fast and Furious Artist [2010]. “Obviously, Thomas was planning as far along as issue #6. “I just wanted to be he was not the boss, but very intelligent, very articulate, and a in really good shape with it and keep it going,” he explained. As eager as Thomas was to work with his former mentor again, guy I enjoyed working with. I liked Roy.” Since that collaboration, COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

Above: Spectacular double-page spread in the ready-for-press Zarlok #1, with art by Sal Buscema and Tom Palmer. Writer Roy Thomas kindly supplied us with a mountain of Zarlok artwork and script pages, and our apologies to him for being so tight on space. Hopefully a future history of Excelsior book is coming to showcase available art!

ROY’S PAL SAL Just before press time, Roy Thomas shared this testimonial about his Excelsior collaborator: “I was truly proud, at the very end of the 1960s, to have been the first writer to be teamed with John Buscema’s younger brother, Sal, when he entered the comics field, both as penciler and as inker. He brought his talents first to The Avengers, and eventually to many other comics of the Marvel line. He and Steve Englehart made a particularly good team in Avengers and Captain America. I was happy when Stan reunited us on Zarlok in the Excelsior line, and, though that imprint was sabotaged by circumstances (if by nothing else), the two of us got more material done than anyone else. It’s only a shame that it was never printed, and that the Excelsior line wasn’t given a chance to shine.” 7

treat to develop and write. Since neither Kirby nor Ditko were involved, I wasn’t expecting a new Fantastic Four or Spider-Man, but maybe a new Daredevil, something like that…? In any case, I was up to try it, just as I’d been up to do Jack Kirby’s TeenAgents for Topps Comics earlier.” But, after reviewing the Excelsior material Lee and Rob Tokar had put together Kurt Busiek for his review, Busiek felt the concepts were off-target for a contemporary readership. “I didn’t think they were going to appeal to an audience looking for modern comics, but I also didn’t think they’d appeal to readers who wanted something with a flavor of the Silver Age. It felt like Stan wanted to show he could compete with what was out there on the shelves right then, but his sense of what was succeeding wasn’t actually current.” All the same, the writer accepted the Omega assignment, a series not unlike the other three Excelsior titles. “All the books had a similar structure, if I remember correctly. The conflict was one of opposites. Omega was an ‘angel,’ his foes were ‘demons.’ Another hero was from the future, so his foes were from the past. That kind of mirror-opposite thing. It’s a sturdy, workable structure, but I thought it was probably too much to use it quite that repetitively.” Busiek confessed, “I don’t remember all that much about Omega, but I don’t know that there is much to remember, since Stan wanted to keep almost everything in the series vague. Omega himself was possibly an angel, possibly an alien, but I wasn’t supposed to tell the reader which or even hint at a true answer. Stan wanted Omega’s nature to be a tease — is he angelic? Is he good or evil? Which way will he turn, what decisions will he make? — It’s hard to write a character like that if you can’t know or make up any of the answers.” Teamed with a young Scottish artist, Busiek recalls, “I didn’t exactly get to work ‘with’ Rob [McCallum] much, since Stan had us writing full scripts, and then sending them to the artists to draw, with any feedback or give and take happening between the

Above: Dynamic Omega page by Scottish artist Rob McCallum. Inset right: Bill Jaska penciled page intended for Vandal #2. Below: Character designs for Omega by McCallum.

Excelsior! © POW! Entertainment. All art © the respective copyright holder.

Buscema became a reliable workhorse for Marvel, producing art for exceptionally long runs of The Incredible Hulk and The Spectacular Spider-Man, to name but two of his many regular jobs. The tumultuous mid-’90s prompted Buscema to anticipate big changes to come and he worried not so much for himself, but primarily for the younger artists. When the axe came down at Marvel, “My career was essentially behind me,” he said. “I had to squeeze out a few more years the best that I could, but there were so many guys in their 30s and 40s that still had years to work and, all of a sudden, the whole industry went to pot, and all these people were out of work. It was just a terrible, terrible time. And I’m not saying this to sound noble or anything like that. Believe me, I was very, very upset. I’d been working for Marvel for over 30 years, and here I was, just shoved aside. But it happened to so many other people, and they were the ones I really felt for.” THE OMEGA MEN Kurt Busiek says he got the call while driving in L.A. “Stan said he had a project he wanted to talk to me about, and, if I was interested, he’d have someone call me about the details when I was home… [and] they told me about Excelsior Comics, and I was interested, sure. It sounded like it could be a lot of fun.” He continued, “At the time, my expectation was that Stan would want to create characters not unlike the classic 1960s Marvel characters, and that kind of direct, energetic characters could be a

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Excelsior! © POW! Entertainment. Omega TM & © the respective copyright holder.

editors and the talent rather than the talent with each other. I did talk to him a little, and it was pleasant to do, but I felt like we were working in isolation.” About McCallum’s art, the scribe opined, “I think Rob’s work on Omega was very striking, but it’s also a strong example of what I say when I mean Stan wasn’t trying to do Silver Age books. Rob’s work was much more influenced by [U.K. science-fiction comics weekly] 2000 AD. I think he’d already done work for British comics, and did quite a bit more after Excelsior. He was clearly a young guy, figuring various parts of comics storytelling out, but he had an arresting drawing style and was great at drawing grotesqueries — which Omega had a lot of!” Busiek surmised, “I think Stan saw Rob as an artist in the mode of, say, Todd McFarlane, and that’s something he wanted, more than he wanted a Kirby or a Ditko. I don’t think that’s where Rob was aiming himself, but he had a lot of talent, and has shown that with all he’s done since, becoming a respected concept and storyboard artist in the film industry.” The Marvels scribe found himself having a different problem than what Roy Thomas encountered with the process: Busiek discovered he was the wrong person for the job. “I can’t say I enjoyed writing it — Stan wanted something specific, and he’d hired me, who didn’t really write that kind of thing, to write it. I wasn’t expected to bring myself to it, I was supposed to write what Stan wanted, and he’d have been much better off with a writer who leaned toward that stuff to begin with. And I wasn’t able to flesh out Omega’s backstory or bring much clarity to the ongoing conflict. Today, I think I could make it work better but, at the time, I felt like I was bring forced into a box I didn’t really want to be in. “I remember trying to make a case, with Rob [Tokar], I think, for taking apart all the ideas and putting them together differently, to make them fresher, more modern and more varied, and put out something under this Stan Lee brand that would be more fun and potentially more successful. But I was told that Stan wanted to do it his way, which is reasonable. And I was given the idea by someone that Stan was conscious of people thinking that Kirby and Ditko were the real creative powerhouses of the Silver Age at Marvel, and he wanted to prove that he could create commercial projects without someone else. The problem, I thought, was that he wasn’t writing them or drawing them, and so they were instantly being filtered through someone else, and if that someone else was handcuffed — we couldn’t Rob McCallum write it like Stan did in the ’60s, because that’s not what he wanted, but he wasn’t all that sure exactly how he wanted it to feel, either.” Appearing only a few months after Excelsior Comics was shuttered, Glasgow’s Herald newspaper profiled then-local comic book artist Rob McCallum, and the article alludes to the financial troubles that would soon result in Marvel’s bankruptcy: It’s also hope which has kept Rob McCallum going despite recent disappointment. When an editor at Marvel Comics phoned him at his Greenock [Scotland] home to say Stan Lee had some comments to make on his artwork, the 22-yearold braced himself for a direct hit from a hero. The creator behind Spider-Man, The X-Men, and The Fantastic Four, a handful among hundreds of superheroes dreamed up during a 40-year career, was looking to launch a new line of comic books. McCallum, who had worked on Scotland’s own tonic to [Brit humor comic anthology] Viz — Electric Soup — and had sent samples, listened with super trepidation. “Stan loves your art-work. Stan loves your storytelling and he loves your ideas,’’ raved the editor. And so Stan gave Rob a job. For almost 18 months COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

our Scots hero toiled on a comic called Omega, creating character heroes, heroines, and villains, designing costumes then squeezing nubile women inside them. Stan molded his ideas, then sent Spider-Man shirts as Christmas presents. Rob illustrated three issues then waited… and waited. To tide Rob over the summer months, he drew model sheets, detailed character sketches from which toy plastic figures are molded. There was talk of animated television serials and more designs were drawn up. Four titles were planned all under the banner Excelsior Comics, lifted from Stan Lee’s catch-phrase. Instead none have appeared. The big launch remains a kid’s dream, the television series is but a bundle of sketches. Rob’s work remains shelved. Today, even Stan Lee is affected by the current crisis in comics.

This page: Rob McCallum Omega art.

In 2018, the artist — who has since established a successful career in the film and television industries — shared a Tweet that referenced his days working on Omega: “Stan Lee could never understand my Scots accent. Years later, I introduced myself as the artist on Omega for the Excelsior line and great to finally meet him. He shook my hand, huge smile, said, ‘I can tell by your accent, you’re from Brooklyn! Excelsior!’ And off he went! Perfect.” McCallum currently lives in Toronto, Ontario. 9

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Vandal TM & © the respective copyright holder.

Excelsior! © POW! Entertainment, Inc.

This page: Bill Jaaska artwork for Vandal.

apparatchiks were, in essence, demoting him. After Lee reached out, DeFalco shared, “My vague memory of this is that Stan gave me maybe a paragraph about the book he wanted me to do and I flushed that out into a bible, which basically dealt with the characters and the theme of the series.” He added, “I remember turning in the first script and Stan got back to me and he had done a lot of rewriting on it and I was kind of taken aback. So, I was talking to Roy and he said, ‘Yeah, that’s Stan. He’s always rewriting everybody. Bill Jaaska Don’t worry about it. That’s just Stan. He always rewrites.’ For the second plot, Stan had a couple of notes for it and we were trying to get it into shape.” The writer was teamed with young artist Bill Jaaska, who had experienced some success since the mid-’80s as artist on Sable, The Incredible Hulk, and New Titans, among other series. “Bill Jaaska and I spoke on the phone a number of times,” DeFalco explained. “I worked ‘Marvel-style,* and always believe you had to talk to your artists and we discussed the storytelling, and that sort of thing.” It appears Jaaska’s last comic book work during his short comics career was his lush and exuberant Excelsior material (a large batch of his pencil work can be found today at the Heritage Auctions website), as he vanished from the field in 1995 and died in 2009, at the age of 48, reportedly while on public assistance and living alone in a Milwaukee, Wisconsin, rooming house. His body went undiscovered for a time. (Though details are quite sketchy, as he seemed to have few [if any] close associates in the industry, but his fate appears to involve failing eyesight, possible mental illness, and a sudden, albeit peaceful, passing as the result of an embolism as was determined by a city medical examiner.) Writer Marv Wolfman called Jaaska’s storytelling “truly excellent,” and scribe Peter David, who had been solicited to write for Excelsior but declined, said of the man, “I’ve always felt that the issues of Incredible Hulk that he worked on were among the most memorable of the series.” DeFalco, the artist’s final collaborator in the business, said of Jaaska, “He was a sweet guy and he was very open to comments and stuff, because I remember going over storytelling with him — about pulling back the camera to show the action… I’ve always said comics are supposed to be a silent movie. Pictures tell us what’s happening and words tell us why it’s happening. This was in the days when people were just doing a lot of pin-up shots. I was expecting real storytelling. And the guy put in the work and did a good job.” The two would never meet face-to-face. “We only spoke on the phone,” the writer said. (Among the discoveries shared by Roy Thomas was the unanswered mystery of a curious fax of what appeared to THE VANDAL MONGERS be a very dark photocopy of an opening At the most, it had only been a few weeks after Tom DeFalco spread for an issue of Hellion: Terror of resigned his position as editor-in-chief of a Marvel Comics the Savage Streets, replete with fully-finin complete disarray when he accepted the writing ished series logo and story title, “Broken gig on the Vandal series for Lee’s new Tom DeFalco line. His E-I-C reign ended at the onset of Dreams.” Strangely, the pages clearly feature “Marvelution” an era named such by the credits that list veteran Superman scribe Elliot company’s marketing department, which S. Maggin as writer and longtime Filipino comics pro Dell Barras as artist, with Richard Starking’s Comicraft providing lettering and resulted in a disastrous acquisition of its own comics distributor, the firing of a significant portion of staff, Electric Crayon supplying the coloring. When Maggin and Barras were each recently quizzed about this strange artifact, both said and cancellation of half of Marvel’s titles. they had no memory of working on the never-realized series. MagDeFalco got his start as writer in the ’70s, learning his gin said, “No idea how far any [Excelsior] project went, but I didn’t craft at Archie Comics, Charlton, and DC, before landing at Marvel at the end of that decade. He remained at the think it went even as far as Dell’s splash indicates.”) House of Ideas for the next 20 years, where he co-cre- * When prodded, DeFalco insisted that, yes, he indeed worked “Marvelated Dazzler and wrote a multitude of titles. After the style” on Vandal, a method with the writer giving brief descriptions of raucous end of Jim Shooter’s stint as E-I-C, DeFalco the action and settings to the artist, who would visually flesh-out and assumed the management role in April, 1987, and pace the story for the writer to then dialogue. But Thomas and Busiek he led the comics division through a phenomenalworked full-script, the traditional method where the artist received the ly successful spell, only to quit when corporate story in a format similar to a screenplay, already fleshed-out and paced.

THE DEATH OF A UNIVERSE Sometime around Spring 1996, after 18 months of development, production on the Excelsior line came to a sudden, screeching halt. Tokar contacted all of the freelancers and instructed them to stop work, and told the artists to send in any finished pages. In Tales to Astonish, Ronin Ro asked Lee what happened:

Excelsior! © POW! Entertainment, Inc. Hellion TM & © the respective copyright holder.

With the industry edging closer to the grave and the once high-flying publisher facing money problems, Marvel canceled plans for Stan’s Excelsior line, said Matt Morra (then working for another Marvel-related company). “Stan was working on this mysterious line, and one editor left New York to work for him. And no one ever saw what it was.” “I actually had some strips drawn,” Stan explained. “The problem was, I didn’t want to hire any of the people Marvel was using.” He tried using new artists, but in the end, he couldn’t work with them as he had with the old bullpen guys, he added. “And when some of the strips were done and I looked at them, they were okay, they were good enough, but I wanted something better than ‘okay’ or ‘good enough.’ So I just figured I’d forget about the project and I never did them.”

“Yeah,” DeFalco said, confirming that the quote from Lee sounded accurate to his ears, “it just wasn’t up to his standards. The artists showed potential, but they weren’t there yet. Stan got to work with Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, John Buscema, and guys like that. Bill Jaaska showed great potential, but his storytelling just wasn’t quite there yet.” Then DeFalco volunteered, “Now, I can give you my take on why Excelsior died: Stan had decided a couple of times that he wanted to start a new line of comics. He was going to start a whole new line with John Byrne, but that didn’t work out and we had to step in, and that’s when we came up with Marvel 2099. Stan ended up doing a book for it, but it wasn’t the line that he had envisioned. So I think he just wanted to come up with a brand-new New Universe kind of thing. But I think that, once he started to actually do the work, Stan realized that he just didn’t have the time for it. I think that more than anything else is what killed the line.” He added, “To launch a line of comic books is a helluva lot of work! And Stan wanted it to be ‘just so,’ which is how he always wanted things to be. Stan always put 100% of himself into any project he was working on and he wanted to thing to be as big and explosive as the original Marvel Universe… even if the original Marvel Universe was never supposed to be a universe!” But canceling a multiple-title series even before first issues were published… ? And especially after such a significant investment… ? Was that an acceptable occurrence at Marvel? “Back in my day,” DeFalco admitted, “we didn’t do that. But the Perelman people had a tendency to throw a lot of money around, which is why they ran into their bankruptcy — and the bankruptcy had nothing to do with Marvel Comics. Their mergers-and-acquisitions guys kept buying other companies and then realized these companies they just bought were not profitable. I’m not a M&A guy, but I would think you’d find that out before you bought the company.” Thomas remains perplexed by the sudden end of Excelsior. He told Amash in 2016, “Sal and I had finished work on the second issue when the axe fell. Matter of fact, I’d already plotted through issue #4, and Sal had started to pencil #3. There’s no reason to believe Zarlok would’ve been any more or less successful than the other three titles. I sure would’ve liked to see the Excelsior line get off the ground!” The one-time Marvel editor-in-chief also shared, “I don’t quite know why [Excelsior was no more]. The official story was that Marvel felt it wasn’t a good time to launch a new line… So Marvel may have been a bit shaky, and that may have had something to do with it. At the time I wondered, and I still wonder, if there was anything else in play — whether someone back East COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

maybe felt that they didn’t need Stan Lee, who wasn’t under their thumb, editing his own separate comics line out on the West Coast. I know Stan was unhappy when it was suddenly cancelled, because he’d invested time and energy into it. We all had. On the other hand, he quickly picked up the slack with something else, and now I wonder how much he’d even remember of what we did on it.” For Busiek, who still had plenty of other work at Marvel despite the chaotic environment at the company, the demise of Excelsior was a bit of a relief. “I didn’t think the line was going to work at all, once I saw how it was being realized,” he admitted, “so I wasn’t unhappy when it kind of evaporated.” Then-Malibu creative director Tom Mason said, “We would’ve been happy to have taken on Excelsior, and have Stan pop by the office, but the Excelsior deal didn’t happen and the whole thing faded away. I’m not sure why and never got a reasonable explanation. The best guess is that Marvel was sliding into bankruptcy, and the money to launch Excelsior couldn’t be recouped from sales.” Rob Tokar, senior editor (and only editor besides Stan) of the Excelsior line, would remain in California and subsequently worked on Comiculture, a short-lived anthology magazine, and later he became editor-in-chief of TokyoPop, the leading publisher of manga outside Japan. After stints at Blizzard Entertainment and Disney, Tokar has devoted his efforts to a family-owned business, Tokartoons, an animation company serving corporate clients. And lo’, the mystery of Excelsior Comics endures. There’s been talk of books (yes, plural) about Stan Lee’s aborted comics line. And today, the Excelsior! trademark is owned by POW! Entertainment, LLC, the company founded by Lee in 2001.

This page: Leo Duranona Hellion artwork

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NOT YOUR AVERAGE JOES! Interview with JOSEPH MICHAEL LINSNER (CRY FOR DAWN, VAMPIRELLA), a chat with JOE SINNOTT about his Marvel years inking Jack Kirby and work at TREASURE CHEST, JOE JUSKO discusses the Marvel Age of Comics and his fabulous “Corner Box Collection,” plus the artists behind the Topps bubble gum BAZOOKA JOE comic strips, CRAIG YOE, and more!

ERIC POWELL celebrates 20 years of THE GOON! with a career-spanning interview and a gallery of rare artwork. Plus CBC editor and author JON B. COOKE on his new retrospective THE BOOK OF WEIRDO, a new interview with R. CRUMB about his work on that legendary humor comics anthology, JOHN ROMITA SR. on his admiration for the work of MILTON CANIFF, and more!

P. CRAIG RUSSELL career-spanning interview (complete with photos and art gallery), an almost completely unknown work by FRANK QUITELY (artist on All-Star Superman and The Authority), DERF BACKDERF’s forthcoming graphic novel commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Kent State shootings, CAROL TYLER shares her prolific career, JOE SINNOTT discusses his Treasure Chest work, CRAIG YOE, and more!

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WENDY PINI discusses her days as Red Sonja cosplayer, & 40+ years of ELFQUEST! Plus RICHARD PINI on their 48-year marriage and creative partnership! Plus: We have the final installment of our CRAIG YOE interview! GIL KANE’s business partner LARRY KOSTER talks about their adventures together! PABLO MARCOS on his Marvel horror work, HEMBECK, and more! Cover by WENDY PINI.

TIMOTHY TRUMAN discusses his start at the Kubert School, Grimjack with writer JOHN OSTRANDER, and current collaborations with son Benjamin. SCOTT SHAW! talks about early San Diego Comic-Cons and friendship with JACK KIRBY, Captain Carrot, and Flintstones work! Also PATRICK McDONNELL’s favorite MUTTS comic book pastiches, letterer JANICE CHIANG profiled, HEMBECK, and more! TIM TRUMAN cover.

BARRY WINDSOR-SMITH discusses his new graphic novel MONSTERS, its origin as a 1980s Hulk story, and its evolution into his 300-page magnum opus (includes a gallery of outtakes). Plus part two of our SCOTT SHAW! interview about HannaBarbera licensing material and work with ROY THOMAS on Captain Carrot, KEN MEYER, JR. looks at the great fanzines of 40 years ago, HEMBECK, and more!

Career-spanning interview with TERRY DODSON, and Terry’s wife (and go-to inker) RACHEL DODSON! Plus 1970s/’80s portfolio producer SAL QUARTUCCIO talks about his achievements with Phase and Hot Stuf’, R. CRUMB and DENIS KITCHEN discuss the history of underground comix character Pro Junior, WILL EISNER’s Valentines to his wife, HEMBECK, and more!

Extensive PAUL GULACY retrospective by GREG BIGA that includes Paul himself, VAL MAYERIK, P. CRAIG RUSSELL, TIM TRUMAN, ROY THOMAS, and others. Plus a JOE SINNOTT MEMORIAL; BUD PLANT discusses his career as underground comix retailer, distributor, fledgling publisher of JACK KATZ’s FIRST KINGDOM, and mail-order bookseller; our regular columnists, and the latest from HEMBECK!

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STEVE BISSETTE career-spanning interview, from his Joe Kubert School days, Swamp Thing stint, publisher of Taboo and Tyrant, creator rights crusader, and more. Also, Part One of our MIKE GOLD interview on his Chicago youth, start in underground comix, and arrival at DC Comics, right in time for the implosion! Plus BUD PLANT on his publishing days, comic shop owner, and start in mail order—and all the usual fun stuff!

DON McGREGOR retrospective, from early ’70s Warren Publications scripter to his breakout work at Marvel Comics on BLACK PANTHER, KILLRAVEN, SABRE, DETECTIVES INC., RAGAMUFFINS, and others. Plus ROBERT MENZIES looks at HERB TRIMPE’s mid-’70s UK visit to work on Marvel’s British comics weeklies, MIKE GOLD Part Two, and CARtoons cartoonist SHAWN KERRIE! SANDY PLUNKETT cover!

Canadian comic book artist, illustrator, and graphic novelist MICHAEL CHO in a career-spanning interview and art gallery, a 1974 look at JACK ADLER and the DC Comics production department’s process of reprinting Golden Age material, color newspaper tabloid THE FUNNY PAGES examined in depth by its editor RON BARRETT, plus CBC’s usual columns and features, including HEMBECK! Edited by JON B. COOKE.

Career-spanning interview with Bane’s co-creator GRAHAM NOLAN! Plus, STAN LEE’s Carnegie Hall debacle of 1972, the Golden Age Quality Comics’ work of FRANK BORTH (Phantom Lady, Spider Widow), and GREG BIGA talks with ex-DC Comics co-publisher DAN DIDIO on his current career as writer/creator on the FRANK MILLER PRESENTS comics line, as well as that new comics line’s publisher!

WILLIAM STOUT is interviewed about his illustration and comics work, as well as his association with DINOSAURS publisher BYRON PREISS, the visionary packager/ publisher who is also celebrated in this double-header issue. Included is the only comprehensive interview ever conducted with PREISS, plus a huge biographical essay. Also MIKE DEODATO on his early years and FRANK BORTH on Treasure Chest!

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The forerunner to COMIC BOOK CREATOR, COMIC BOOK ARTIST is the 20002004 Eisner Award winner for BEST COMICS-RELATED MAG! Edited by COMIC BOOK CREATOR’s JON B. COOKE, it features in-depth articles, interviews, and unseen art, celebrating the lives and careers of the great comics artists from the 1970s to today.

CBA BULLPEN COLLECTING THE UNKOWN ISSUES OF COMIC BOOK ARTIST!

COMIC BOOK ARTIST BULLPEN collects all seven issues of the little-seen labor of love fanzine published in the early 2000s by JON B. COOKE (editor of today’s COMIC BOOK CREATOR magazine), just after the original CBA ended its TwoMorrows run. Featured are in-depth interviews with some of comics’ major league players, including GEORGE TUSKA, FRED HEMBECK, TERRY BEATTY, and FRANK BOLLE—and an amazing all-star tribute to Silver Age great JACK ABEL by the Marvel Comics Bullpen and others. That previously unpublished all-comics Abel appreciation (assembled by RICK PARKER) includes strips by JOE KUBERT, WALTER SIMONSON, KYLE BAKER, MARIE SEVERIN, GRAY MORROW, ALAN WEISS, SERGIO ARAGONÉS, MORT TODD, DICK AYERS, and many more! Plus a new bonus feature on JACK KIRBY’s unknown 1960s baseball card art, and a 16-page bonus full-color section, all behind a Jack Kirby cover! (176-page trade paperback with COLOR) $24.95 • (Digital Edition) $8.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-105-9 • NOW SHIPPING!

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NEAL ADAMS/ALEX ROSS cover and interviews with both, history of “Arcade, The Comics Revue” with underground legends CRUMB, SPIEGELMAN, and GRIFFITH, MICHAEL MOORCOCK on comic book adaptations of his work, CRAIG THOMPSON sketchbook, and more!

Exhaustive FRANK CHO interview and sketchbook gallery, ALEX ROSS sketchbook section of never-before-seen pencils, MIKE FRIEDRICH on the history of Star*Reach, plus animator J.J. SEDELMAIER on his Ambiguously Gay Duo and The X-Presidents cartoons for Saturday Night Live.

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incoming

There’s Something About Don

Reader Ben Herman wishes CBC had discussed a Spider-Man two-parter with McGregor [With the picked-up pace of CBC frequency, our mail bags seem to be generating some new LOCs. Keep ’em coming! — Ye Ed.]

Ben Herman

Above: Alfred Plaine, founding partner of Pyramid Books, in a photo shared by his grandson, Moss Plaine, which arrived after our focus on Norman Goldfind in CBC #30 went to press. Below: Splash page to the first part of Don McGregor’s story, “There’s Something About a Gun,” in Spider-Man #27–28 [Oct.–Nov. 1992], penciled by Marshall Rogers and inked by Keith Williams.

[Natch, your letter prompted yours truly to pop online to find any commentary on that Spider-Man story you mentioned and, lo and behold, I found just that SuperMegaMonkey’s Marvel Comics Chronology website, featuring a reply comment by someone with the exact same name, Ben! That Ben Herman posted on May 11, 2016, responding to the blogger’s observation that the tale concludes suddenly, stating, “If the ending seems abrupt, it may be because there was apparently some editorial interference. A couple of years ago, Don McGregor posted the following on Facebook about the story”:] “An arson inspector friend of mine took my son, Rob McGregor, and I to a gun range in the Bronx, so we could use the guns. Rob was the age of the young boy in the story. And there’s a lot of behind the scenes stories with this, as well. How it almost became the first Spider-Man graphic novel? Then how it turned into a two-parter. And then, when it was finished, written, drawn, lettered, [the editor] came in and proved the old adage, ‘Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.’ And weakened the story I had spent months researching, and overriding [previous editor] Jim Salicrup. Still, I’m proud of the story and what I hoped to do with it, and thank Jim for believing in it. Lots of stories behind this when I write the book.” [Well, that’s certainly intriguing! Your observation assuredly is compelling for Yours Truly to pursue a “story behind the story” feature! Thanks for the notion and for your letter, Ben. Of course, your wish for a focus on “the Gerbs” is hereby granted for this very ish, which also includes a chat with writer Mary Skrenes! And, Ben, your mention of “Weezie” Simonson prompts me to share that I am supposed to be contributing new material to a University of Mississippi Press Conversations book spotlighting Louise Simonson, but haven’t heard from that editor in years after agreeing for her to use my interview with Weezie conducted for the Warren Publications issue of Comic Book Artist and my volunteering to talk with Weezie about her latter career… Maybe that Conversations editor is out there somewhere and can read this plea to get that much-needed project back on track… And, come to think of it, the same appeal also goes out for the editor who replaced the late Derek Royal on the Hernandez Brothers Conversations interview collection book, to which I conducted, just for that collection, an amazingly comprehensive and revealing chat with Mario, the oldest Los Bro and the sibling who organized the boys to produce Love and Rockets in the first place. Perhaps someday! Would be great to see those two volumes in print someday soon. — Y.E.] #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Spider-Man TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

I found your interview with Don McGregor in Comic Book Creator #29 to be highly insightful. McGregor is one of those writers who people either seem to love or hate. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who had an opinion of his work that was in-between those two extremes. Fortunately, I am one of those who has found his work to be highly thought-provoking. It’s very clear that McGregor is exceedingly passionate about his work, about the characters and subjects of which he writes. I certainly agree with the assessment that he is one of the individuals who, in the 1970s and ’80s, played a vital role in the medium growing in more mature, sophisticated, intelligent directions. Having been born in 1976 and gotten into comic books in the late 1980s, I discovered McGregor via the “Panther’s Quest” serial that ran in Marvel Comics Presents. Fortunately, since then, a great deal of his earlier work has been reprinted, enabling me to also read it. My one regret about the interview is that McGregor did not discuss the Spider-Man [#27–28, Oct.–Nov. 1992] story, “There’s Something About a Gun,” he wrote that was published in 1992, with artwork by Marshall Rogers and Keith Williams, which addressed the plague of gun violence in American society. It is a story that, sadly, is even more relevant three decades later. I would have liked to have found out McGregor’s thoughts on how “There’s Something About a Gun” came about. In the past, he has alluded to the fact that he was dissatisfied with the published story due to disagreements with editorial. Having recently read the story again, I nevertheless feel it works extremely well, and that McGregor’s message did not appear at all diluted. I agree that it would be a great idea to cover-feature more writers in future editions of CBC. McGregor’s fellow status quo disrupting trailblazer, Steve Gerber, feels like an obvious choice, although unfortunately he is no longer around to be interviewed. Of those writers who fortunately are still very much among the living, my top three choices

to get a cover spotlight are Ann Nocenti, Chris Claremont, and Louise Simonson, as all of them would undoubtedly be fantastic interview subjects. Finally, the piece by Robert Menzies on Herb Trimpe’s time living in Great Britain was really interesting to me, because I didn’t know about any of this before, so it was all new information about an artist I thought I was fairly familiar with. Great work.

A World Flipped Upside Down Recommendations for stuff about Down Under, the Subconscious, and Hitchcockian Fun storyline and slightly crude artistry held me rapt — If curiosity killed cats like me with an insatiable desire to learn amateur and yet professional about the history of comics across the globe, I’d be dead 99 — and I wanted to know more times over and then some! Maybe that unquenchable thirst about this alternative comics started in the early ’70s, when I lived in England with Mom and universe in the Southern little brother Andy, and was a dedicated reader of their weekly Hemisphere, where summer comics, which endlessly fascinated me then and still do today. was winter and the water cirAnd I’ve pursued my education mightily with such recent forays cled the drain in the opposite as my Book of Weirdo, where I became connected to cartoonists direction! And Philip’s book from far-flung places, as far afield as Serbia and Tasmania! shares the rich, engaging And, now, as I chip away at my Forging Metal book with French history of numerous aspects, co-author Jean Depelley, I’m exploring the backgrounds of from a fan’s perspective and any number of foreign comics, and the abiding friendships I’m that of a discernible and smart making and the stuff I’m learning is just amazing. participant in expanding the Take, for instance, Australian pal Philip Bentley, who form through his editorial contributions as editor, anthologist, publisher, retailer, and vision. The 116-page effort — historian extend well beyond his Melbourne home base, whose replete with glossary, appenbackground and interests in some strange, mirror-universe way, dixes, notes, and index! — is resemble my own! I got in touch with Philip (thank you, Paul meticulously detailed, but never dry. Bravo, my Aussie pal! Gravett!) to learn about his comics, Inkspots and Fox Comics, Unfortunately, A Life in Comics doesn’t seem to be currently and any influence Métal Hurlant and/or Heavy Metal had on available, but maybe y’all can prod Minotaur, the Melbourne those anthologies, and an online friendship blossomed from “Pop Culture Megastore” Philip co-founded in the 1970s, to there! In a swap, Philip sent me his trade paperback memoir, find copies — www.minotaur.com.au. This volume is too valuA Life in Comics: A Personal History of Comics in Austra- able to go out of print! lia, 1960–1990, a fascinating, highly readable, and strikingly Meanwhile, back in the northern climes, I just only recently thorough account of all aspects of comic books Down Under. caught wind of the fine cartooning of Tim Hensley, whose For decades now, I’ve had a slight obsession when it comes comics are irreverent (and yet still reverent!), smart, and — for to Australian comics. At some point, I was introduced to The collectors — utterly confounding, as his most recent effort, DePhantom knock-off character, The Panther, and its earnest tention, is a one-shot that sort-of parodies Classics Illustrated (with allusions to so much more!) that carries “#2” on the cover. My buddy — and brilliant cartoonists in his own right — Rick Altergott applauded my purchase when we met at Rob Yeremian’s Time Capsule shop and he reminded me Hensley also did Sir Alfred (a one-shot with, yes, a “#3” just to be mean to us obsessives), a remarkable Treasury-sized effort that, to put it in a nutshell, is basically a kind-of pastiche of The Adventures of Bob Hope from the 1950s, only this devoted entirely to film director Alfred Hitchcock (and wife Alma Reville), all drawn in the style of Owen Fitzgerald by way of Little Lulu’s Irving Tripp. And, boy, is this comic book a trip! With Rick’s hearty approval, I’ll be soon interviewing Tim to talk up funnybooks and the man’s captivating spoofs. (Question: is Tim’s Wally Gropius the #1???) An astonishing recent arrival at Casa CBC was the unexpected and unforgettable Creatures from the Subconscious: A Collection of Oddly Compelling Work from the Mysterious Mind of Legendary Cartoonist Denis Kitchen, an eye-popping array of the onetime Kitchen Sink publisher’s chipboard drawings reproduced large and the smart reproduction and enlargement bring a deeper resonance of his art which I had previously considered the results of his charming and habitual predilection to, well, doodle. But big like this gives his work weight and dimension hitherto unconsidered. If my friend allows it, I’d love to include a spread or two of his work, which Pete Poplaski calls “wittingly compelling.” Just awesome! Check Tinto Press’s website for ordering information for this hardback, 160-page art book (nicely priced at $39.99!), by visiting www.tintopress.com.

Creatures from the Subconscious © Denis Kitchen. A Life in Comics © Philip Bentley. Detention, Sir Alfred © Tim Hensley.

by JON B. COOKE

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

Above: Your chagrined editor had taken for granted the charming doodle art of Denis Kitchen until seeing the work enlarged is the new Tinto Press collection! Ye gads! Insert left: CBC’s new-found pal from Australia, Philip Bentley, wrote this memoir in 2013 and, whether conveying it ten years later or not, it’s a fine survey of Australian comics from multiple perspectives — fan, editor, retailer, and historian! Below: Two of cartoonist Tim Hensley’s latest releases from Fantagraphics, both brilliant efforts!

Alex Jay CBC #30 arrived today. Great profile of Norman [Goldfind]! Your article mentioned senior editor Rose Kaplan. One day we were talking about Harlan Ellison and she told me she refused to go on a dinner date with him. She said Harlan kept asking and she kept refusing. Rose may be the only woman to turn him down for a date. There is one error, not yours, that I must point out on page 26. The caption said The Slings & Arrows Comic Guide credited Ken Bruzenak for the American Flagg! logo, which is wrong. I did the logo. There’s been much confusion about that since Ken is so closely associated with the comic. Tom Orzechowski told me that someone he spoke to thought Alex Toth designed the logo. That person, whose name I’ve forgotten, asked Howard about the logo designer and he said, “Alex did it.” The person thought it was Toth. I was not well-known at the time. To clear Above: On an errand to feed the up the confusion, I did a brief interview with Rick Obadiah that TwoMorrows crew, Ye Ed bumped appeared in American Flagg! #8. into this feathered friend at San Diego Comic-Con! Below: Looks like Ye Ed in 1997, while manning the Jack Kirby Collector table at Ramapo Comic Con! Who’s my buddy here? Why none other than David Donovan’s little boy, John “Jack” Kirby Donovan! Proud Pop states, “Jack is a great young man. He just got married this past March to my lovely daughter-inlaw, Maria. Jack is a respiratory therapist who started his career a few months before COVID hit. He collects comics, original art, and action figures! Gee, I wonder who influenced that!” Father and son came by our booth at Baltimore Comic Con, and Jack and I did our best to recreate our poses from more than 25 years ago! (Pops, by the way, helped Ye Ed recently by facilitating the appearance of the 1994 Steve Gerber interview in this very issue! Thanks, D.D.!)

Ben Gross Wanted to make just a few comments after reading the new issue, but not so much on the Graham Nolan section. First, the 1972 fiasco at Carnegie Hall. Seems like that stuff was part of the era…the end of the hippie period, where people just kind of winged it. The next thing I say, I say with affection, but I find it very humorous that Stan, at around 50 years of age, decided to walk around with that ludicrous piece of shag carpet on his head. Why does nobody ever mention how ridiculous and silly-looking it was? Well, Jack did get him pretty good with the “Funky Flashman” bit. You mention possibly doing a Neal Adams tribute issue. I think we can never get enough Neal Adams. What is so incredible about the man is that he had the courage, and indeed cared enough about justice, to put his own career on the line to get some measure of justice for Siegel and Shuster. Let’s be honest about human nature: most people, even when they know of a Great Injustice, lack the courage to take a stand if there is even the slightest possibility of blowback onto them. Courage is the rarest trait there is. And, in large corporations, likely 99% of them, you will be crushed if you go against the corporate line. What I find especially appalling is the incredible level of vindictiveness and evil — yes, evil — directed by the then overlords of DC towards the creators of Superman. Leibowitz and the Donnenfelds…? A shameful bit of history for this industry. Rich and powerful men crushing the life out of a poor and powerless person, just ’cause they

[B.G., I’m inclined to agree. F.Y.I.: issues on Denny O’Neil, John Cassaday, Chris Samnee, and Rick Veitch are planned. — Y.E.]

Joe Frank Lots to enjoy in [Michael Cho’s] interview… He noted friends, at the time, questioned his choice of admirable artists. The point is, then and now, it shouldn’t be a consensus vote. Reading comics is an individual activity. No one requires outside opinions as to what they must enjoy. He went on to be a successful artist. So, how could his choices be wrong or require defending? An artist can admire different approaches, but that doesn’t mean he must slavishly copy or incorporate them. He can enjoy and respect them, but not consciously internalize them. That seemed to be the case, here, with Alex Toth. Also — and he’s hardly the first to express this opinion — he disliked or was put off by Kirby and Ditko artwork, at the beginning. Then, later, they became his favorites. No apology required. Tastes change and views shift. I’m no artist but loved them immediately! Read Marvel Tales #3 on a long summer ’66 car trip and have been a fan ever since. The only qualifier is I might not be so elated at the outside inking they were occasionally stuck with. The one major difference (or attraction) of Cho’s art, for me, is he had some wonderful landscapes here. That’s usually not to my taste, but these were great. As a long-time comic book fan, a background drawing usually leaves me cold. I’m looking for the people in the forefront, curious what they’ll be doing. Yet many of his cityscapes were very interesting, with the numerous individual details… I credit him for one other choice: Though far younger than me, he made the effort to study the various newspaper comic strip artists that may’ve influenced later generations of comic book artists. That’s quite a stretch being open to artists so far back and requiring research. Admirable. Congratulations to your dual anniversaries, Jon; 10 and 25 years, respectively. I’ve enjoyed the ride. Even if it wasn’t an overall topic I had immediate interest in, most of the coverage still connected in learning more about the industry, publishers, and the creators themselves. In that quarter-century, I sure don’t remember writing any outraged letters demanding my money back. Hopefully you’ll continue doing it so long, I’ll require my caregiver to read the latest issue to me. P.S. A pleasant surprise to see you, Joe, and Mark Sinnott in a happy photo. Is there anyone else who did Treasure Chest, besides Joe, that I might recognize? [Sorry to edit your LOC so much, Joe, but space dictates… You remind me to acknowledge Ramon Schenck for his excellent “Charlton Personnel” listing at http://www.ramonschenk. nl/charltoncomics/charltonspotlight/charltonpersonnel.htm regarding my Charlton Companion. Sorry to go off-topic, my friend! Wikipedia lists some other names (though listing Murphy Anderson is likely in error). — Y.E.] #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Howard the Duck TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

[Thanks, Alex! Alex, of course, was a great help last issue and he contributed the Village Voice cover in this one! — Y.E.]

can, ’cause it makes them feel good. Shameful. And yet, some have feted them for their contributions. If Neal had never drawn even one panel of comic book art anybody remembers, he still would be one of the Greats for his nearly unheard of level of courage. If you do a tribute issue — and I hope you do — please try to avoid using the same old images that have been used a million times, like the cover of Green Lantern # 76, or those panels where the old guy asks what GL has done for the Black skins. Tons of Adams work is never seen… always the same old stuff.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

Dateline Hembeck TM & © Fred Hembeck. COLORS BY GLENN WHITMORE

darrick patrick’s ten questions

Chilling with Mr. Chance

Telling tales of Plague Year 1665 and a boy and his kaiju, a writer shares about his process Jonathan: My mother. Her kindness. She’s just a good person. Often easily we can be completely biased on the people [Jonathan Chance is a British/Southern Californian comic book we love. If I didn’t know her, though, I’d appreciate her genuine writer , award-winning filmmaker, and screenwriter. His website, generosity as a person. She’s always been supportive and says he “writes while bringing up his son and occasionally believed in what my brother and I were doing. You hear about submits to voice-over gigs to people not having supportive parents, but I got lucky there. I further express himself over appreciate that she influenced the man I became. In becoming other mediums.” Recent work gracious and humble, I attribute that to her. include Cover the Dead with Then there’s my brother. He is four years older than me, Lime, and the graphic novel, so growing up he was this great artist in high school originally The Boy Who Conquered a and now he writes books. But our interests were similar. As kids Mountain.— D.P.] we were into science fiction and fantasy. I was into horror a bit more than him, but he was probably the earliest inspiration Darrick Patrick: What for me. Growing up in the 1990s, the movies we were catching was the path that led you were from the ‘70s and ‘80s. That was a completely rich and to working professionally in incredible time for cinema. Back then, for a period, it seemed comic books? there was such a clear free reign bestowed to independent writJonathan Chance: ers and directors. Michael Mann, John Milius, Carpenter, Lynch, Being a visual storyteller Cronenberg. These were the greats. Their stories were smart and hailing from the independent biting. My teenage mind was forming that this was one medifilmmaking background, hor- um that could be thought-provoking, deep, and dark. I wanted ror movies and comic books to come up with my own stories that would be memorable and were the things that always stick in people’s minds. excited me as a kid. There was Darrick: Do you have any words of advice for other individuthis deep fascination early als looking to make a career with their writing abilities? on. I originally wanted to be Jonathan: Find what excites you and write about it. If a comic artist, so I went to you’re writing something that doesn’t do anything for you, it art college. Then my brother will show. It’s like when you watch a movie that takes from other and I threw ourselves into movies. The plot, or ideas, show little inspiration. Some writers making movies. Every process write to be paid and some write for the love of creation. Try to of the DIY was very appealing make a great story. Try to be one of those writers. You may make and we accomplished some less, but at least you’ll have integrity and something original to interesting concepts. leave behind. Later, after a not-so-great Shut off the noise. Now more than ever there are so many experience with a producer, distractions. Our phones and apps lure us away from focus. Take I found myself in a situation deliberate steps to work on your own voice, and everything that where my mindset was, “I is brilliant, amazing, and unique about it. Use what you need: don’t want to rely on anyone. music, etc. for your process — but that’s it. We all know the imBut I can rely on myself.” I portance of social media for growing an audience and pointing figured if I screwed up, then people toward your work, finding collaborators, networking, etc. it’s my fault and my decisions. I think it’s wise to set aside a limited time to do that and then Nobody else’s, and I’m fine with that. I invested in myself and get off. Most social media apps are purposely addictive and thankfully it didn’t backfire! I found comic books to be a perfect distracting. It’s their mission to make you want to stay on, and visual transition from making movies. Each time, I look to find thus, you get nothing done. the right artist that matches the story’s mood. It’s like watching Darrick: How do you spend your time on a typical workday? your favorite movie when the music perfectly complements Jonathan: I make myself a coffee and put something the cinematography and vice versa. If a story can have a perfect inspiring on. Chillwave, soundtracks, etc. Then I gather my list alignment with its art in comics, then the comic isn’t hollow. All of notes of what’s most important to check off first. When I’m style and no substance. That director’s vision is there engrained writing, I’ll write until it feels like it’s flowing like honey. With in the comic creator. You want to hit on all cylinders. Each time enough accomplished, I’ll take a break and check on current I look to create a memorable story with depth and passion. illustrators, colorists, or letterers to see where the progress is Hopefully the reader is immersed in these worlds and genuine- at with what we’re working on. Maybe post a work-in-progress ly cares about the characters and their journey. on social media, catch up on emails with publishers, and do Darrick: Who are some of the people that greatly influenced interviews. you while growing up? If I’m not writing the next issue of a comic, or padding by DARRICK PATRICK

Above: Portrait of comics writer/ screenwriter Jonathan Chance.

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Photo courtesy of Jonathan Chance.

Next page: Cover details of Jonathan Chance’s recent work, Cover the Dead with Lime (top, with art by Hernán González) and The Boy Who Conquered a Mountain (art by Emi Utrera).

The Boy Who Conquered a Mountain © Jonathan Chance and Emilio Utrera. Cover the Dead With Lime © Jonathan Chance and Hernán González.

out a new idea, you’ll find me storyboarding a comic book I’m working on. Storyboarding doesn’t require me to be as laser-focused as writing material. It’s looser. My panels are by no means matchstick men drawings, though. They’re heavily detailed because I really want to convey to the illustrator and colorist my needs expressed on pages, combined with the script and a bunch of notes. Oftentimes, these are meticulous and I want something exactly as I want it. It can be borderline obsessive, but you’re paying for it. You have one crack at it, so why not make it your best? I never order anyone around, but I do push for the best from anyone involved in any of my projects. It definitely yields results. If I’m putting my best in, I just expect the same in return. Darrick: For new readers who may not be familiar with your work, what are some projects of yours that you would recommend to begin with? Jonathan: I’m producing Cover the Dead with Lime with Hernán González illustrating, Damian Felitte coloring, and Drew Lenhart letters. It’s currently with Blood Moon comics. It’s a historical horror series set in London, 1665, during the time of the great plague. Jack Teller is a young doctor sent in to investigate plague victims coming back to life. Jack gowns a plague doctor uniform, but quickly makes a gruesome discovery as he finds he is no longer a healer, but has rather entered into the world of eradication for a fee. For the less horror-minded and slightly younger audience, The Boy Who Conquered a Mountain is a Heavy Metal graphic novel coming-of-age samurai/fantasy/kaiju story set in the Tokugawa period of Japan. Emi Utrera did the amazing art. My short works can be found in horror and sci-fi anthologies like Elsewhere and Horror Comics from Antarctic Press. Short stories are so much fun to do. There’s a degree of freedom and playfulness to making a contained story. It’s a great way to exercise a point, or ask a question of the reader. A moral question, a universal dilemma, or concern wrapped in a contained story. It shows that even a short story can make you think or leave a lasting impact in some way. Darrick: Who are a few of the people in the comics industry that you hold a high deal of respect for? Jonathan: Any door-openers, known or unknown. Industry or non-industry. Family, friends, people who recognize potential and give a kid a chance. Those who help, cultivate, or support creativity. We all deserve that opportunity and people around you to say, “Keep going!” In the industry: Chris Claremont, Bill Sienkiewicz, Jack Kirby, and Walter and Louise Simonson. Any creator, writer, or artist that fights for the importance of original stories and character development. In this medium, we hold a responsibility to provide a powerful message that wields inspiration and makes a reader think. Darrick: Outside of creating stories, what are your other interests? Jonathan: I love reading and playing with my son. He’s eight years old. Sometimes we go to theme parks, or our tradition to going to get breakfast together. I walk and listen to music to get inspired. I often feel I’m always creating. [laughs] Like I don’t take a day off because ideas will just come to me. If I’m not making comics or films, my other big passion is voiceCOMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

over. I love doing VO work. Perhaps it has always been a natural part of the acting side, but it’s the most enjoyable thing. It’s just another extension of creativity I love to throw myself into. Closing a door, pulling faces, and donning the guise of a character is just exhilarating. Voicing has this connection to imagination. There’s a forming of creation. Whether world or character, you iron it out. It’s completely yours, unique and original as you, and only as limited as your thinking or understanding. Darrick: What is your oldest memory? Jonathan: It was 1986. I must have been three or four years old. I remember exactly where I was, how I was feeling, and what was playing in the background on my dad’s old record player. I think that was the first moment I felt different. I was standing in the hallway and for the first time a piece of music really affected me. I couldn’t tell you the name of the sensation, but it was possibly wonderment and connection. It was kind of scary. I was just being hit by all these emotions that my little head couldn’t form around, or grasp understanding what it was hearing. It was Oxygene, Pt. 4 by Jean-Michel Jarre. I remember stuff like Pink Floyd and Genesis playing a bit later. I think music is powerful like that. It made me feel sensations I’d never knew existed. My love of creativity and its connection to expression, substance, and spirituality I think began there. Then, years later, I found this experience was on a cassette we recorded. My brother and I were talking on it, too, but then it was taped over by accident. My love for horror came around a year later, but that’s another story. Darrick: Tell us something about you that most people don’t know. Jonathan: I can sing. I was never musically trained or anything, but it all came about over months of late nights as a young father, when my son was just a baby. He would get up hourly in the beginning and I became sick to death of singing the same nursery rhymes over and over. I tell you: you can only count so many animals on Old MacDonald’s farm before you lose track of how many animals you counted. Nor do you care how many! You just want to get some sleep. So, I figured if I’m going to be up late every night trying to comfort my son, there had to be a soothing and more loving way to put him to sleep. I might as well do something productive! So, I started singing songs I knew lyrics to and others I played on my phone. I genuinely enjoyed doing it. As I sang the words from them, anything from ‘80s ballads by Phil Collins and Christopher Cross to acoustic pieces, I somehow was eventually reaching high notes with Journey songs. I must have been doing something right because he normally conked out by the beginning of the second song. [laughs] Darrick: What moments in your life are you proudest of so far? Jonathan: Becoming a father. My marriage. Writing my dream movie screenplay. The films we produced that were recognized for being great stories by winning or being nominated in festivals, despite a lack of financial backing. Being published by Heavy Metal. Also, as I write this, most recently Cover the Dead with Lime was just nominated for “Best Horror Comic,” and won “Best Comic by Other Publishers” by the Indie Comics Awards. 19

comics in the library

Long Gestation, Fiery Birth The journeys of Thomas & Giordano’s Dracula and Franz & Glanzman’s Sgt. Willy Schultz!

chapters were written and drawn by Thomas and Giordano, completing the adaptation. In 2010, a hardcover collection was I was looking over the library and got to thinking about how issued by Marvel, and a copy of that was obtained by me in some of the books we’ve got for students have had an extraor2016 for insertion into my middle-school library shelves. dinarily lengthy time from their first appearance in print to, not I’m happy to say that it has been consistently checked out in only their completion, but to their first book collection. the years since, not only at Halloween, when kids tend to really The first of three of those long gestations begin with check out horror novels, either prose or graphic, but throughout Roy Thomas and Dick Giordano’s faithful adaptation of Bram the year. If you can find a copy today, get it. It’s a beautifully Stoker’s Dracula. No one can say there aren’t many comic book done version of the original novel and well worth both your or graphic novel adaptations of that book, as it — like Mary own and your library’s time. Wollstonecraft Shelley’s Frankenstein — is one of the most A new book from Dark Horse, that had an even longer famous horror novels in the English language and dozens of gestation between first publication and completion is the comic book writers and artists have taken a crack at it. However, graphic novel by Will Franz and Sam Glanzman (with Wayne most of those efforts have been either heavily abridged to fit Vansant), The Lonely War of Capt. Willy Schultz. Franz and within page requirements or contain wildly rewritten scenes Glanzman begin the serialization of what turned out to be one or sequences that don’t actually line up with anything in the of the earliest genuine graphic novels, in 1967, in the pages of actual book. Charlton Comics’ Fightin’ Army. This isn’t even Roy Thomas’s only crack at doing adaptations The story revolves around American tank commander Willy of Dracula. Besides the original stories he wrote for Marvel’s Schultz, stationed in North Africa, who is falsely accused by a 1973–75 black-&-white Dracula Lives! magazine, he, with jealous fellow officer of murdering his incompetent commandartist Mike Mignola, adapted Francis Ford Coppola’s 1992 film ing officer. The dead CO’s father is a one-star general and, in his adaption Bram Stoker’s Dracula — which claimed to be faithful grief, is only too willing to have Schultz available as a target for to the original novel (but really wasn’t) — into graphic form. A his despair and vengeance. Schultz is court-martialed and then year later, he and artist Esteban Moroto produced Dracula: Vlad condemned to death, but escapes that fate during a air raid. the Impaler as a graphic novel that freely adapted the original While escaping, he comes upon a crew of dead German tankers source, while firmly linking it to Vlad Dracul, the real-life hero and switches uniforms in an effort to hide behind enemy lines. (to his people) and monster (to the Turks), who Stoker had used Since he can speak fluent German (learned from his immigrant for his starting point for the original 1897 novel. parents), he survives for the next year by switching back and However, the Marvel Comics version that Thomas and forth from being an American soldier to masquerading as a Giordano delivered was based on the idea that it would be German one. Mind you, he is not a traitor, but a man seeking to faithful to Stoker’s novel, since that had actually never occurred survive an unjust conviction during a horrible world war. in the many previous adaptations or vampire stories lifted The Willy Schultz serial ran in Fightin’ Army in nine- to tenfrom Stoker’s work. From 1973, when they began work on the page chapters for the next three years. Along the way, it turned adaptation, until 1975, the Thomas-Giordano team offered up into a savagely anti-war story, almost by default. As Harvey five chapters of their quietly stunning adaptation in the pages Kurtzman, Archie Goodwin, and others had discovered: when of Dracula Lives! [#5–8 and #10] before the title was cancelled you write authentic war stories, they tend to become regarded with #13. A sixth chapter appeared in the one-shot b-&-w as anti-war very quickly. In 1970, a conscientious objector sited title, Legion of Monsters, in the latter half of 1975, and that the serial as one of his reasons for wanting to be a non-comappeared to be it for the adaptation as, no matter how good the batant. The U.S. Army was said to have complained to Charlton Thomas-Giordano work was, all of Marvel’s horror titles where about the matter and the saga of Willy Schultz was abruptly the adaptation was to continue were gone by the end of 1975. cancelled mid-way through 1970, with Franz being fired by the When Tomb of Dracula was reborn in 1980 as a b-&-w company. magazine, Thomas was no longer at Marvel and the project The 168-page serial set in limbo for the next half-century, continued to appear dead. However, in 2004, nearly 30 years with Franz largely blackballed from comics (he wrote a few after its last appearance, Marvel editor Mark Beazley suggested more Charlton war stories in 1972–73 and a single DC war story to both Thomas and Giordano that he’d like to shepherd a in 1972, but never had his name credited on any of them). completed version into publication. By this time, doing faithful Glanzman, a hugely underrated artist and writer (who just adaptations of classic novels had become a money-winner for received the Bill Finger Award, mostly for his work on “U.S.S. various companies (and continues as such, to this day), and the Stevens,” for DC and Marvel), moved on to a long career at DC Thomas/Giordano Dracula was already halfway complete. What Comics — and now I’ve run out of space for the column and, was a risky proposition to complete in 1975 was a useful notion much like the actual Willy Schultz saga, will have to complete in 2004. this story next time. [Full disclosure: Our columnist co-auSo, four 52-page issues entitled Stoker’s Dracula reprinted thored Our Artists at War [2021, TwoMorrows]! — Y.E.]. the six 1970s chapters, all of which looked great. Nine new See ya! by RICHARD J. ARNDT

This page: Above is a detail of Sam Glanzman’s cover art, featuring Sgt. Willy Schultz, Fightin’ Army #91 [May 1970]; and below is Dick Giordano panel from Dracula Lives! #8 [Sept. 1974].

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Sgt. Willy Schultz TM & © the respective copyright holder. Dracula Lives art © Dick Giordano.

once upon a long ago

Comix Get into the Mix!

While no hippie he, back in the day Steven Thompson still dug into the undergrounds

Chartwell Manor © Glenn Head. Cheech Wizard TM & © the estate of Vaughn Bodé. Maverix and Lunatix TM & © Drew Friedman.

by STEVEN THOMPSON I was never a hippie. In the Swingin’ Sixties, I was actually fairly conservative. Of course, the fact that I had only reached age ten here in the Midwest by the end of that tumultuous decade probably had something to do with that. But then, early in the 1970s, my receptive little mind was utterly blown when I discovered comix! Beginning in the late 1960s, underground comix as an actual movement lasted just roughly ten years, growing out of college humor, greeting cards, comic book fanzines, and hot rod mags, but that was a decade of pure unbridled creativity! The underground cartoonists were inspired by EC Comics, by MAD, by sci-fi pulps, by psychedelic drugs, by horror films, by politics, by Vietnam, by the sexual revolution, and just by their own completely unrestrained ids and egos. They weren’t just pushing the envelope on subject matter, but tearing that envelope open, chewing it up, and setting the leftover bits on fire! The sex probably shocked Larry Flynt, the violence perhaps curdled the stomach of Charles Manson, and the political sentiments were decidedly left-wing, much to the chagrin of the Republicans in power at the time! Undergrounds had more than their share of garbage, too, but even that has tended to be of some interest over time as what we now think of as outsider art. At their best, they were gold, with original characters like Mr. Natural, the Bunch, ProJunior, Fat Freddy (and his cat), Barefootz, and Cheech Wizard. Maybe I wasn’t a hippie. Maybe I had short hair and didn’t smoke dope, but the counterculture called my name! Early underground favorites included Rich Corben, Victor Moscoso, Rand Holmes, Grass Green, and particularly Vaughn Bodé! The hippies who ran the store that sold them decided I was mature enough to buy comix. I began picking up even more as I began attending more and more conventions throughout the disco decade. In time, I had built a longer list of underground faves, including Cruse, Beck, Metzger, Shelton, Kitchen, Sheridan, Lynch, Williamson, Trina, and, of course, R. Crumb. And the thing is, I thought all of them were hippies! Outlaw cartoonists, working outside of society with no rules or laws to hold them down, their only goal was anarchy. Some of them really were hippies, while others were short-haired, soft-spoken, maybe a little older. Sure, some just took drugs and wanted to draw insanely pornographic sex; some wanted to better the world; some wanted to eduCOMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

cate people; some, like “real” cartoonists, simply wanted to entertain. The world of the underground cartoonists was actually as diverse as everybody else’s world but, like the non-existent Marvel Bullpen, without having a clue as to what anyone looked like, I had come to see it as its own little comic strip HaightAshbury microcosm. I have actually met Spiegelman, Kitchen, Dan O’Neill, and Baba Ron Turner. Online, Howard Cruse was my very first Facebook friend. Trina, William Stout, Frank Stack, and Larry Welz followed. I’ve at least spoken online with Flenniken, Lynch, and London and I was actually hired by Skip Williamson once to do PR for his two e-books. I even transcribed a couple interviews with Crumb! Turned out Justin Green actually lived here in the Cincinnati area and I arranged an autographing event with him at my bookstore. In 2023, the brilliant Drew Friedman put out a lovely book of portraits done in his signature style, Mavericks and Lunatix: Icons of Underground Comix, which serves to put faces to so many of the pioneering comix creators, including many of the lesser-known names who have fallen through the pop culture cracks over time. All those artists and their books deserve to be remembered. Looking at the big picture from a modern perspective, it becomes clear that comix were never just a passing fad. They were a stepping stone. ZAP led to Arcade and Weirdo, Eightball and Hate!, and beyond. The real legacy of the underground comix today comes in the form of graphic novels that follow in the uncensored and deeply personal steps of Green’s Binky Brown Meets the Holy Virgin Mary — things such as Glenn Head’s masterful, painful, Chartwell Manor. I wasn’t quite there at the beginning, and I never did become a hippie (although I did smoke pot briefly in 1982), but looking back now, most mainstream comic books have devolved, while underground comix evolved and their history is now more respected than ever. I’m glad I got to see much of that as it happened.

This page: Above is the cover of Glenn Head’s harrowing memoir of attending a New Jersey boarding school for “troubled boys,” where the youth suffered physical and sexual abuse. Chartwell Manor [2021] was published by Fantagraphics. Inset left is, of course, Vaughn Bodé’s rapscallion, Cheech Wizard. Below is the cover of Drew Friedman’s recent effort, Maverix and Lunatix: Icons of Underground Comix [2022], a collection of iconoclastic cartoonist portraits, published by Fantagraphics.

son of the flame

Deodato Never Gives Up

Part two of the Mike Deodato, Jr., story with insights from Tom Brevoort and Rain Beredo by GREG BIGA

This page: Below is Mike Deodato, Jr.’s design for Weapon H and, at bottom, the artist in a recent photograph.

[We learned in part one that, after he got his start in the comics industry of his native Brazil, Deodato Taumaturgo Borges Filho — Mike Deodato, Jr., to you and I — came to American comics without knowing the English language, but with a very unique approach to his work. As he began his first tenure at Marvel, Mike lost that personal touch, subverting his own career with the launch of the Mike Deodato, Jr., Studios. Here we dive deep into the fall and rebirth of the artist at Marvel Comics. — G.B.] MADE TO BE AN AVENGER? Beginning in 1994, after tremendous success at DC with Wonder Woman, Mike Deodato leapt into the House of Ideas by taking on the penciling duties of The Avengers. Headlining one of the top team books in history is not the common way for a “recent discovery” to enter the Marvel roster but, in the mid’90s, Mike was proving to be more than an average talent. Tom Brevoort, longtime editor for Marvel and later to be Deo’s champion, remembers Mike’s arrival. “As I recall, editor Ralph Macchio lined him up for Avengers right at the very beginning of that Wonder Woman run. So, he wasn’t influenced by it, in particular, but rather simply by the strength of Deodato’s style. And he seemed like he’d be a great fit for the book, somebody who could synthesize the John Buscema sort of approach to the team with the then-modern ‘big figure’ style

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Weapon H, Incredible Hulk TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

of the Image creators.” Mike, on the other hand, did believe his successful run with Wonder Woman factored into his being assigned a choice gig straight on at Marvel and not just his initial samples. “I think it was a combination of both,” says the artist. “I remember I did samples for Avengers, specifically, and I ended up using the same scenes again. I think it was a combination of the two. “I remember, my plan was to make it as good as Wonder Woman, with me doing the inks and everything. But after, I think, four or five pages, my agent told me, ‘No, you are only doing breakdowns and Tom Palmer is going to finish it because we have a lot of other books that Marvel editors want you to work on.’ So, I was kind of bummed because I wanted to do my best work ever. And, if you see my first issue of Avengers, the four first pages are very, very well done. And then, it’s not. So, I could do Hulk against Hercules, a special one. I did a lot of other books while I was doing Avengers. I was doing it in this kind of style that was only breakdowns. I was doing four pages a day. So, it was very, very fast. And Palmer had to do a lot of work to make it readable.” By 1994, Palmer was already a legend as an inker. The late giant had brought his pen to some of the greatest storylines in Marvel history. The Image era provided pencilers who were not always a great match in style with Tom. Deo shares he was among them. “Yeah, well, I loved the work he did on Gene Colan, especially. It was fantastic. [But] I was not satisfied because I was doing it in a rush. And Tom Palmer also had to do a lot of things in a rush, too. And I don’t think the result was good. It was not his best because he was working over breakdowns. And it was not my best because I was doing four pages of breakdowns per day. So, I was not satisfied at all with the results, overall. It had a lot of energy and big figures, but I was not happy, to be very honest. But you can see in the first four pages that he inked was great. So, if I were doing the pencils like I should, with his inks, the result would be much better.” During his two tenures at Marvel, Mike would frequently return to The Avengers, a title that appears to be ‘“his book.” Deo explained, “Well, at first, it was fantastic. I was doing The Avengers the first time. And then, [on] every occasion, I would jump into

Incredible Hulk, Thor TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

an Avengers book, there was a different kind of enthusiasm or a source of enthusiasm or a reason for me to be happy again. It was like Brian Bendis doing New Avengers and then he created Dark Avengers just for me, only for me. Oh, it was fantastic. And it was all made up of villains. I love villains. I like more to draw villains. And every time there was a different reason. “And then, Ed Brubaker did Secret Avengers, with all kinds of heroes I didn’t draw before. And so, every time, there was a different reason.” He added with a laugh, “But I actually never liked to draw group titles, because it’s too much work. Too many characters doing too many things. And, if it is written by Brian Bendis, then there is eight characters in eight panels [per] page.” The artist laughed again and said, “And it’s crazy.” Deo continued, “I really prefer a book with one character in the desert. Like the Wolverine [Annual #2, Nov. 2008] I did. Wolverine ‘Roar.’ He’s in the desert fighting in a ghost city fighting a werewolf. That’s it. Because, for me, the time I spend on the page depends on how many panels and how many people per panel. Because the same energy I put in a cover, I put in every panel. So, if there is a lot of people… more time, more time. I know it’s part of the business.” Early in his Marvel days, Deo recalls having a longtime editor attempt to give him constructive advice. “Bob Harras tried to teach me storytelling at San Diego Comic-Con, in 1995, and I was just not listening. He was telling me the importance of storytelling. That storytelling was not ‘Image.’” The former editor-in-chief at Marvel attempted to impress upon Deo the importance of panel progression and pacing in a story over flashy sequences. “Yeah, he wanted me to do it. Of course, he’s an editor and he knows the importance of storytelling. I didn’t. I wanted to do big splash pages and there was, of course, a lot of panels and I would just cram them in the sides of the pages. And it was a mess. And I was even using those double-pages that were tilted. So, it was great visually. But, of course, it was a pain to do that thing. I started doing that after I saw Adam Kubert use it on Wolverine #90 [Feb. 1995]. It’s a masterclass in storytelling, those doubles that folded in four pages. It’s great. It’s amazing. And I tried to do that. But, of course, I didn’t have the same experience.” Unfortunately, the two things which would hamper Mike at Marvel had already taken root. Whether through his decision or through the overzealousness of his agent, he took on more work than he could possibly do of high quality. And, through pride in his ability, he remained steadfast in the style which brought him to get assignments in America. These situations began causing issues as Mike began work on his first event, Avengers: The Crossing [one-shot, Sept. 1995]. “Yeah, I remember I did that cover with Thor [#502, Sept. 1996] in his new uniform I had created. And the other uniforms, people think that was me. But it was Joe Madureira who did them. I remember that image was published everywhere. But I don’t remember much of the story at all. I remember Iron Man was a kid back then. Yeah, I don’t remember much. I remember I was excited by the importance of the event. But I don’t remember much of the story, to be honest. I was working so much, I didn’t have time to even cut my hair back then.” As Deo mentioned, he redesigned the classic Kirby Thor costume. He did so in the look of an Image-styled book. “Well, every list of the worst uniforms of all time, it’s there. Yeah, definitely. But Tom Brevoort said he liked it. I prefer the classic uniform. I was so bummed because I thought I was gonna draw Thor in the classic uniform. And then they had me do it new. So, I mixed Spawn with everything. There was also, in the original drawing, there was chains attached to the hammer. I don’t COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

remember if it went to the pages. And, yeah, it was terrible. It was terrible, but some people like it.” In fact, during Deo’s first go at Marvel, Brevoort shares what he believes to be Mike’s best work. “I’d probably have to say [Mike’s best is] the four issues of Thor that he did with Warren Ellis [“Worldengine” story arc, Thor #491–494, Oct. 1995–Jan. 1996]. If nothing else, they made for a cohesive whole, a single, self-contained story that did a bit for putting the Thunder God back onto the radar of the readers of the time. Warren’s scripts also pushed Deo to produce images that were less typically super-hero shots and were more iconic — like that cover [Thor #491, Oct. 1995] that’s just Thor’s hand holding his hammer in the rain. A lovely image.” “Yeah, he’s right,” Mike says. “It’s the story I’m most proud of at that time. It was a great idea for a story to make the gods aliens and more scary than anything. It was fantastic. Everything I like to draw; the horror and the zombies, it was there. I was very, very excited. Of course, there is some storytelling that is not so good. But the first issue was pretty good. And I was very, very excited. And it’s one of my best works, really.”

Above: Mike’s blockbuster cover of Incredible Hulk #60 [Nov. 2003]. Colors by the late Hermes Tadeu. Below: For the mighty Thor story arc, “Worldengine,” [Thor #491–494, Oct. 1995–Jan. 1996], written by Warren Ellis, Mike did a redesign of the Norse god’s costume. This is a detail of Mike’s art from that saga.

Above: Mike was hoping to devote the level of detail to his Avengers work during his first Marvel stint as he had on this double-page spread from The Avengers #380 [Nov. 1994], but the editor only wanted pencil breakdowns from the artist.

Below: The “Mike Deodato Studio” provided art for the Avengers one-shot [Sept. 1995]. Mike’s reputation took a bad hit because a messy situation developed involving the studio, a mess from which took him years to recover.

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Avengers TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

this idea to create the ‘Mike Deodato Studio.’ My arrangement with my agent was they would handle the whole payment fee, because my page rate was so high, they could take out the base rate of the artists invited to do the book. I would do the inks, or I would do the pencils, or somebody would do backgrounds. They would coordinate all the things and make all the payments. And, because my page rate was so high, they took the half of it to pay the other artists, another inker, or whatever. So, everybody could be working; a lot of guys would have jobs and I would make more money. So, okay. These guys had it coordinated, I’m going to do it. Because I didn’t want to have to worry about too much. My brain cannot do too many things at the same time. “So, when coordinating, they would say, ‘Stop and take care of this book.’ And they would coordinate the deadlines with the editors and make excuses, ‘Oh, he’s sick,’ or something. And only a few of the guys have direct contact with me, like one that worked in my city. I would contact him directly and he would come to my house. I would have a page all finished penciled and I would leave for him to finish the inks or to give [direction], ‘Okay, I want this background like this.’ And then I’d calculate payments on the person doing the whole page. For others, I was giving instructions by phone, like Mozart Couto, I’d FALL FROM GRACE WITH THE DEODATO STUDIO In those early years at Marvel, Mike knew something just wasn’t send reference and stuff. A lot of folks would be angry because they were late or something. But, you know, it was not good. It working. It’s only now, with the perspective of someone who was good to make money, but the result was I was working too can look at his career — without making excuses — that Mike can talk through the problems he was both facing and creating. much, worrying too much, and the level of art was falling. It was “When I started at Marvel, I was doing The Avengers. When you terrible. “And there was a breach of contract because Mike Deodato see the first pages of the first Avengers I did, it was very good. Studio artists had been doing work for other companies, too. It was the double-page with Pietro carrying another character. Extreme Studios started doing things that were not so good And then, after a few pages my agents said, ‘They want you to do this book, and this book, and this book.’ But I cannot do that. at the time, like announcing my name on the book when the agreement was to announce the Mike Deodato Studio and I want to make it perfect. ‘No, you can do it. You can do very, very loose pencils, and then Tom Palmer can finish it. And then list the name of the artist. And then they announced the book with only my art, and the readers would get the book, and they you have the chance to do this book, and this book.’ saw that it was not me. Even at Marvel, some editors would not “So, I caved in. That was the start of messing things up. credit the artists of Mike Deodato Studio. I was mad. A lot of I will get a lot of money because my page rate was fantastic money was made, a lot of parties got jobs, but some got mad back then. Because so many editors at Marvel wanted to work with me, I was under exclusive contract. And so [my agent] had at me because they thought it was my fault. Editors got mad at me. And the art was terrible, terrible, terrible. “I was sleeping very poorly. And I went to the hospital one day because I woke up with my heart beating out of control. And then, I went back to bed and I woke up thinking, ‘I don’t care.’ So, I went to work and then I almost stepped away. So, I went back to the hospital and I had to stop work. And I was sleeping four hours a day, not exercising. So, in the end, my contract with Marvel was over and Marvel didn’t want to renew it. So, we went back to Valiant, who had fought with Marvel for my contract back then. And Fabian Nicenza, the writer who co-created Deadpool, he was a nice guy who was in charge, said ‘No, no, we don’t want you, Mike.’” Brevoort shares his view as an editor of that “Studio situation.” ”Deo over-committing and bringing in the ‘Deodato Studios’ to help him on many of his assignments hurt him a great deal. In essence, when an editor was hiring Deo to do a job, they wouldn’t be certain who would actually be producing the work — Deo himself or one of his people. And so that created a lack of confidence in him as a creator. If I’m hiring Mike Deodato to do a job, I expect to get a Mike Deodato job. No slight to the other artists in the Deodato Studios, several of whom went on to have strong careers themselves, but their work wasn’t what the editors thought they were buying.” After a very brief cup of coffee over at DC on a Batman Annual, Deo was again shown the door instead of being offered

Lady Death TM & © Brian Pulido/Chaos! Comics. Jade Warriors TM & © Mike Deodato, Jr.

an exclusive contract. The Deodato Studio disaster seemed to have irreparably destroyed Mike’s prospects at the Big Two. Many years after the fact, Mike shares, “Thank [them] for doing that. If they had not done that, I’d be doing the same sh*t. I had to have the rejection to make sense of my life. Mike was able to land work for Chaos! Specifically, he continued his “jiggle vision” work on Lady Death [#5–8, 13–16, 1998–99] and Lady Death vs. Vampirella II [one-shot, Mar. 2000]. “Yeah, it was nice,” he says. “The colors are great. And I had the freedom to do anything, and I created stories with no sense at all. It was fun. But even there I got complaints from the editors saying that it was not good enough. That’s when I found out something was wrong. I had to reinvent myself. That’s when things get interesting. “I decided to make the resolution that I was gonna work less. I had this chance to do, I think it was a Catwoman miniseries, for DC. And, because I wanted to do it, when I got other offers from other sources, I refused them all. I wanted to be prepared to do this. And then, when finally the script came and I was going to start, they called my agent and said to, ‘Return this script because it was a mistake.’ It was not [meant] to be sent to me. And then my agent says, ‘There is a signed the contract.’ And the editor replied, ‘You have to find another job. Send it back or he will never work for DC again.’ And then, of course, we sent it back and I hate the guy. “So, I ended up doing some stuff for a porn website. Some very, very hardcore stuff. A lot of fetishes like snakes flying around naked women, very graphic. Very fun to do because I had no job.” Unfortunately, Mike continued on this route, creating images and text for sites which gave him the opportunity to be creative, but no satisfaction for doing comics work. “Nobody wanted to work with me,” he explains. “People were rejecting me. The companies that were, before, fighting for my contract, were rejecting me. It was like a sign when I did a back-up story for a guy who used to work in my studio. Something’s wrong, I had to rethink things. Because I had lost my love for comics, I was working just for the money. I used my memories from when I was doing comics in my room. Being with my dad and my best friend talking about acting out the scenes and the emotions that were in my brain. That’s why I do comics: to create a story. Then I used that to rewire my brain; to work on only one book a month, to learn English, to fire my agents, to be in charge of my own career, and so all of my work was not for the money, but to be comfortable and satisfied with my art. And then money would come from the quality not for the quantity. So, I follow these rules today.” As dark a time as it seemed, Deo was still able to do work that had fans and also moved him onward in his creative process. At Dark Horse, Mike latched on to drawing the Xena: Warrior Princess comic book [various issues, 1999–2000]. Much like he had previously done for Innovation, Mike was working on a licensed TV product. In doing so, he was forced to accurately depict the actors from the TV series onto the page. Because of this requirement, he began to incorporate more photorealism into his Image-based style. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

In addition to Xena, Deo also worked on his first Star Wars story for Dark Horse. It’s a property of which he would begin a long association. “I did one story with Beau Smith. It was a very nice story. The colors, too. I think the inking was by Oclair Albert. I like Oclair because he’s very faithful to my drawings. I liked doing Conan there, I could draw a lot of horses. I got only some directions from them because they didn’t want too much craziness in the layouts. It was very fun to do that. I could use photo reference again and mix with my more actual style. It was a good bridge between eras for me.” Similarly, Mike created and illustrated Jade Warriors for Image in 1999. This three-issue series was done very much in a style which, in this case, fit the publisher. In spite of this, Jade Warriors now has a very highly anticipated omnibus edition coming in 2023, going to show you that even Mike’s old style still has a devoted following!

Above: Post-Marvel, Mike found work drawing buxom women for publisher Brian Pulido at Chaos! Comics in the late 1990s, specifically on Lady Death and Lady Death vs. Vampirella II [2000]. This is from a Xerox of a page of his art in Lady Death #5 [June 1998].

Inset left: Mike did his own series for Image Comics in the 1990s, Jade Warriors, which (of course) emphasized his expertise at depicting exaggerated female figures. He recently revived the concept and launched a Kickstarter campaign for an Absolute Edition. 25

Above: In the early 2000s, the artist completely reinvented his style, now using photo reference to exquisite effect plus he rendered in pencil using a technique that did not need to be inked, as obvious in this spread from Witches [#1–4, Aug.–Sept. 2004]. Below: Mike’s head designs for Lilith, the daughter of Dracula, as she appears in Marvel’s Witches four-issue mini-series.

to submit the pitch to Marvel. So, I got the job. I did the first issue and the second issue. And then Bill Jemas read the script and said, ‘Oh, this is not good. We’re not even going to publish it.’ Oh, man. It was bad luck. So, starting again… I never give up. Every time I find an obstacle, it’s more incentive for me to keep going.” TOM, AXEL, TIGRA, AND THE BIG GREEN GUY TO THE RESCUE “Tom Brevoort saw the pages I did for Witches [which] was supposed to start years later. Axel Alonso had a script from another writer. I didn’t want to finish it and it went to a friend of mine. But Tom Brevoort had this Tigra mini-series [#1–4, May– Aug. 2002] and I took it. I’m very proud of my work, there. I did very tight pencils. I used a lot of use of Steranko and Gulacy as motivation as there was no contour lines on the figures. The contour was made by the background or the shadows. So, I put in a lot of effort and I was not satisfied at the time with the colors. Because I thought they took out my effort from doing the colors too heavy, I thought, at the time. Now I’m very proud of the colors and everything. After that Axel got me back into Marvel. He saw my style and was a big fan. So, he invited me to do The Incredible Hulk [#50, May 2003]. And that’s when I consolidated my plate at Marvel and signed a new contract.” Deo sees Brevoort as instrumental at bringing him back to Marvel. Tom humbly deflects that statement: “I think instrumental gives me too much credit here,” the editor says. “At the turn of the millennium, Deo had been away from mainstream comics for a little while and he was looking for work. His reputa#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

No one from DC or Marvel were calling him until Marvel began putting a book together to raise funds after 9/11. Mike would create his now iconic image of Captain America with Cap’s face in his hand for the book. He chose not to submit it for the charity book as he believed it was capitalizing on a tragedy at that time. However, Marvel was ready to forgive and forget… or so Mike thought. “Finally, a Marvel editor gave me the chance to do a nice color story, an 11-page story,” Mike said. “I did it in my new style. I took pictures of everything, all the poses I did. It was like a gamble because I used real guns, I used a real home, I used my car, and everything. A lot of work was done with the storytelling. I was very proud. I was using this new technique that was only pencils. I did the pencils very tight. So, it not does not need to be scanned to be inked because it could scanned from the page. I sent it to the editor and the editor loved it. ‘It’s fantastic, but I cannot use it because I hired an inker and he can’t ink this. How can he ink this?’ So I said, ‘Okay, send it back and I will do it again.’ So, I did the 11 pages again on the lightbox, leaving space for the inker to ink it. So, there’s two versions of this art. I send it back and the guy said, ‘This is fantastic. I’m gonna give you the next X-Men title.’ I thought, ‘I was back at Marvel!’ And then the guy got fired. I thought, ‘Okay, starting again.’ “And then, editor Lysa Hawkins was doing a new book called The Witches, and she said I was competing with a European artist, but I never knew who it was. I sent in samples; I was working with computers now. So, I spent all my time doing colors, doing the layouts, and I even did a presentation for her

Tigra, Hulk TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

tion at Marvel still wasn’t all that good based on the earlier Deodato Studios period, but his sample pages still looked strong. So, I tried him on a Tigra limited series, which he produced the full artwork on. There was no inking, Deo simply drew the pages dark enough and complete enough that they could be shot from his super-tight pencils. He also produced a string of monochrome orange covers that stood out on the stands. As his initial pages came in and people got a look at what he was doing, interest in him skyrocketed. In particular, Axel Alonso was interested in getting him on Incredible Hulk with [writer] Bruce Jones and it was on that assignment where a lot more fans got to experience his work again than on Tigra.” Brevoort and Alonso immediately became the two people who Mike most trusted with his career. He did covers, in that same tight pencil fashion, for Citizen V, as he prepared for his next challenge. When Alonso assigned him to The Incredible Hulk, Deo was making a return to a character he had worked on seven years prior. Although he worked with the outstanding writer Peter David, Mike was still knee-deep in his old mindset and style at the time. This time around, he would partner with industry legend Bruce Jones for a whole new type of experience. “I love to work with Bruce Jones on The Incredible Hulk,” Deo said. “And according to him, he said that, when I did something, it was exactly how he was envisioning it. I don’t know how it works — [whether] it’s my experience or we mesh — I don’t know how the chemistry works. In my mind, it’s just me doing my thing and it works. And his script was so good and so well-written that you just have to follow everything he was describing, and it would work.” Outside of the various iterations of The Avengers he drew, it is likely the Hulk character for which Deodato is most quickly remembered for at Marvel. He understands that he didn’t bring his ‘A’ game the first time to the title in 1996. “Yeah, in Hulk, I was really in bad shape. It was that time I was putting in a lot of work, and it was not good at all. I’m really not proud of that. And I bet Peter [David] doesn’t like it, either. But it’s a huge difference because when I went to do Hulk with Bruce Jones, I was really understanding storytelling and I made the effort to make it work, and so it’s two different eras. I didn’t last much in Hulk [the first time]. I think I did only four or five issues.” Growth as a storyteller and as a professional seem to have come lockstep together for Deodato. After years of “Image over-exaggeration,” Mike returned to a more photo-realistic approach which gave his pages more substance than they had previously. His work had now become about storytelling. “The characters can be different, but you can use storytelling in any kind of event. Even in a big fight, in calm moments, then you can build the suspense to get to that big fight. I remember when I read comics in when I was a kid there was action all the time. There was the early moments to build the suspense. Bruce Jones could spend a whole book building the suspense. I don’t really see any difference using storytelling techniques on a grounded character and or in a super-hero; a very powerful character. It’s depending on the needs of the story.” COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

This page: Above is Frank Borth’s first comics work, True Comics #3 [Aug. 1941]. Inset left is The Human Torch #4 [Spr. 1941] panel by artists Carl Burgos and Harry Sahle. Below is pic of Frank taken by Reed’s sister, Ella, 1942–43.

Brevoort shares the change that he saw upon Mike’s return to Marvel. “Well, stylistically, Deo was still an artist in much the same school. But he had left a lot of that Image emulation behind and showed that he could focus on telling a story and not simply providing big, punchy images of the characters. That’s what made him truly valuable in that period — he could draw any Marvel character and make them look on point, but he was also invested in the art of sequential storytelling. That’s an area where he’s just gotten better and more accomplished over time. That said, sometimes writers had to get used to what he could do. Brian Bendis has related that, when he first worked with Deo on New Avengers, the two

Above: In 2002, Mike drew the Tigra four-issue mini-series [May– Aug.], which sported a nifty orange motif on his covers. Inset left: Detail from Mike’s variant cover art for The Immortal Hulk #16 [June 2019]. Below: Hermes Tadeu, the talented Brazilian colorist, who was tragically murdered at the age of 25, during a robbery in Dec. 2003.

of them weren’t entirely in synch. But once Brian saw what Deo did working with Warren Ellis again on Thunderbolts, he was able to work out how to write for him and play to his strengths, and the two meshed perfectly thereafter.” Truthfully, upon his second stint at the House of Ideas, Deodato was having one success after another. His output for Marvel included not just The Avengers and The Incredible Hulk, it also included a 19-issue run on The Amazing Spider-Man [#509–528, Aug. 2004–Mar. 2006], an 11-issue stint on Thunderbolts (a team he had originally drawn during his first run of the Hulk, in #449 [Jan. 1997]), a visit to the X-Men titles, highlight moments with Moon Knight [#20, Sept. 2008] and The Punisher War Journal [#4, Apr. 2007], and four issues of the one-time cursed Witches comic [Aug.–Sept. 2004]. Other than very brief periods of transition, his ability to provide superior writers with what they wanted, including Ellis, Brubaker, and Bendis, was now becoming a Deo trademark. Mike is very appreciative of working with topflight authors such as Ellis, even if there was no direct conversations between the two. “I never have had any conversation with him, not even by mail. I think we had something were our styles matched.

THE BENCHMARK CHARACTER, COVERS, HEARTBREAK, AND THE GOODBYE TO MARVEL For any artist to ascend to legend status at a publisher, specifically Marvel or DC, that artist must have a well-remembered, if not character-defining, run on one of the “tent-pole” characters from that company. In 1993, Deodato made that claim with his trend-setting year on Wonder Woman. Although Mike had just had his own resurgence as the artist of The Hulk, in 2004, he took on the artistic duties for Marvel’s single biggest character, a certain friendly neighborhood wallcrawler. #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Incredible Hulk, Thor, Wolverine TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Conan TM & © Conan Properties, Inc.

Above: Oil painting by Mike (seen inset top) of the Big Green Guy. Below: Conan promo piece by Mike. Opposite page: Detail of Mike’s Amazing Spider-Man #521 [Aug. 2005] cover inks.

Because I love that run on Thor and then, 10 years later, I had the chance to do Thunderbolts with him. And it was fantastic! Great! I love the way he writes. It’s very loose, it’s not a lot of details, but very gritty. I just love the way he writes, and I think it matches my style. That’s why at some point I asked him if maybe we could do something together, like independent stuff. But he never responded. I guess he was not interested. But, if it was not for him being canceled now, I would love to do something with him again. Because, as a writer, the guy’s a genius. I love his work.” By 2010, Brubaker was already solidifying his stature as a premiere comics writer. He partnered with Deodato on Secret Avengers, when Mike was hitting full stride as an artist. As Mike recounts, “Yeah, I loved it! I was really enjoying the book. He was very nice [corresponding through] e-mails. But, at some point, he left the book and I heard that was because he didn’t like to write for team books. I was very bummed about it. So, when he left, I left, too, because there was no point without him. But I was really enjoying it. It was so good. There was a mixture of espionage and there was Shang-Chi, which I love, and all the characters that I love to draw. So, it was really fun.” Hearkening back to the thoughts previously shared by Tom Brevoort: Bruce Jones aside, the first Marvel writer most fans associate with Deodato is Bendis. “Yeah, I didn’t know how to depict the Avengers right. They were still a little stiff for me. I was in a transition. I don’t know what he did in the writing to adapt to my style. I didn’t realize that was happening, he was adapting to me. But I remember that he asked me one day in a convention, we met for the first time, and he asked me what I liked to draw. He asked me to give him a list of things I’d like to draw, and he’d pass it through the editors, and stuff. So, I did a list of what I like to draw and sent it to him, and I forgot about it. And years later, I found that list again, and I realized everything I put on the list I have drawn at Marvel. So, man, the guy made it happen! And so, I think he realized I love double-pages. So, he put in a lot of double-pages. Of that, I paid attention. “I love working with Brian. He’s one of the few writers I ever had a connection on a personal side. I went to his house had dinner with his wife and my wife, too. So, I really like him, not only as a writer but as a person. So, maybe that helps, too.”

Spider-Man TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

“Yeah, it was a big responsibility. And I was aware of that. I remember the first cover I did, I tried to emulate, the best I could, Todd McFarlane, by showing a lot of plasticity in Spider-Man. I was very, very excited. What I tried to do was to put in less shadows make it more in the light of the day. And I remember looking at a lot of reference from Gil Kane and John Romita, Jr. I remember I used Jason Priestley as Peter Parker and Mary Jane was Liv Tyler. It was fun. I think it gave me the chance to work on more body language and expressions because J. Michael Straczynski’s stories are very emotional. I remember I’m very proud of the issue, I think it’s #512 [Nov. 2004], where he has a fight with Mary Jane, and he ends up the scene crying. It was very good. I loved it, even though I was not inking it. I liked the result a lot.” After gaining insight in 1998 from Michael Golden on how to structure a truly great cover, Deodato put all his skills into telling an entire story into one singular, book-selling image. It was also a unique talent who was doing covers for Marvel, immediately before Mike, specifically on Incredible Hulk, which helped pave the way for Mike’s tenure. “You can blame the cover artist before me, Kaare Andrews. It’s the movie director-slash-artist-slash-writer. He’s doing stuff for [creator-owned publisher] AWA, too. He was doing great covers back then. So different in style, playing with the logos, I was so impressed. He opened the door for me because, anything I could do on the covers, Marvel wouldn’t complain because he had done all the crazy things with the covers that could be done. I had the freedom to play with whatever I wanted. So, I painted covers by myself; I did covers where I decided to use colors only in the title and leave the picture in black-&-white. “I was first working with Hermes Tadeo. He was a Brazilian colorist, and if he was alive, he’d be the greatest. He did amazing covers with me, not only for Hulk, but all the titles; Venom and Punisher. And when I finally convinced Axel to give him an entire issue, it was a self-contained story of The Hulk. Before the last page, Hermes was murdered in a robbery in Brazil. That’s when I had to choose another colorist very quickly. So, I chose Rain Beredo. He did the last page and then we started working together after that. That issue is perfect to me. I could use everything I liked; the kind of style with shadows, the double-page with the title… I even could play with the title of the story (we don’t do that anymore). I think it was “Simetry” [Incredible Hulk #70, June 2004]. I drew it with the water on the ground. And the cover was also colored by Hermes. It was like the Hulk was dead on the ground. It was a very emotional issue, very significant because even in the end there is a message that applies to life and death. If you have to enjoy the ride, enjoy the view. So, it was one of my favorite stories for several reasons. “I love to play with the titles on the cover. I did that with She-Hulk, too. And that’s when I was already working with Rain Beredo. Rain is fantastic. I love working with him. He’s a Filipino guy who I’ve never met in person. But we exchanged a lot of emails. Sweetest guy in the world. Very talented. We did a lot of great stuff.” Beredo certainly appreciated the situation he was walking into as a collaborator with Deo. “Mike was the first major artist that I colored and I was elated that I got chosen as Hermes’ replacement given how amazing Hermes was,” the colorist said. “I would always use Hermes’ colors as references which is probably why Mike liked them. Unfortunately, the first issues that I’ve worked on printed really dark and muddy because I was not aware of how printing settings work. So, I only had two issues of The Incredible Hulk with him and then he got assigned to Spider-Man. So, it was actually Matt Milla who was his main colorist after Hermes and then Dave Stewart. Both superstars. It took around a couple of years before I was given another chance to color his work again.” After the initial Hulk paring, Rain would return to be Mike’s most frequent colorist over several titles. He speaks from a very heartfelt space when speaking of Mike as a talent and as a person. “His expertise in shadows, great realistic faces, and his unique cross-hatching. His art is a great combination of classic and modern styles. And, given how much he has achieved through the years, he has remained a humble, wonderful person who has always helped me with other opportunities, which I am always grateful for. Working with Mike has always been my proudest moment. He came into my life at a time when I really needed it.” Surprisingly enough, even though there was continuous success for Mike COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

and Marvel during his second tenure, contracts always come to an end. Mike felt the need, with an interior ticking clock, to get in as many favorite characters drawn as he could. He actively campaigned to be the full-time Wolverine artist and landed the Origins book. He also wanted desperately to do the Marvel Conan book. Gerry Dugan assisted in bringing Conan to Deo. However, not in the usual manner. It was through Savage Avengers. “Gerry was a very nice guy. I remember I was supposed to do Conan. CB Cebulski promised me I was going to do Conan. I even did the promo art. Before that I was going to do The Return of Wolverine with Brian Bendis. But then Brian left and then I had no book. Then the next more important book they had was the Infinity Wars. So, they asked me if I want to do it, and I said yes. But then, the book extended more than we expected. It was supposed to last [fewer] issues, and then we did more. And there were those prequels, too. And in the end, when I finished, the teams for Conan were already assembled. I was not in them, of course. So, there was only five months left to my contract. They asked me what I wanted to draw, and I gave them a list of characters, and they created a book with all the characters there was on the list. Except for the Brother Voodoo. I thought we would do this book, you know, ‘Oh, great!’ But actually, I thought it was not gonna work. I thought it was crazy to have Conan with the Avengers. It’s gonna be crazy and it was not gonna work. But I was going to draw Conan, so, ‘Yeah, okay, I’ll try.’ But I was certain it was not gonna work. But then, when I got the script, it was great. He could mix the humor with heroes, and there was this mood of the adventures we watched in the afternoons on TV and stuff. It was great. He made this mix work, and it was my chance to draw the heroes I had drawn before, like Elektra and Wolverine. It was my farewell to the company before I left.” After a complete change of professional fortunes, Mike Deodato was set to leave Marvel Comics for a second time. This time it was because a trusted colleague wanted him to be part of a new creator owned venture. Because, after all, how can anyone say no to Axel Alonso? TO BE CONCLUDED 29

Steve Gerber Had he not passed away in 2008, Stephen Ross Gerber would have turned 76 by the time you read these words. During the era discussed, he had cultivated a reputation as a writer with an appetite for the absurd while rocketing to popularity at the House of Ideas. His satirical touch was perfectly attuned to those pretty stoned years, and subsequent struggles in his crusade for creator’s rights defined, in comics, much of the coming decade. As writer, his talent is sorely missed and, as a person, Steve will never be forgotten. Following is an edited transcript of a live radio interview broadcast on February 2, 1994. — Ye Ed.

Ed Menje: This is “’Nuff Said!,” and we got an interesting show planned for you. We got Steve Gerber, the man who created Howard the Duck, and did a whole bunch of other stuff… We enter the wild, wacky, wonderful world of that West Coast wunderkind, Steve Gerber, that Sage Sultan of Stirring Sagas and Doctor of Duckology, the creator of Howard the Duck, who has also lent his prodigious pen to presenting peerless parables of the Man-Thing, Superman, Spider-Man, the Defenders, and the Hulk. We’ll also confab on his current creative conquest for Ultraverse, Sludge… [cites station identification and refers to musical interlude] You heard musically “Cold Metal,” by Iggy Pop and the Howard the Duck theme song from the film, from the climactic scene where Howard and Beverly’s band gets up on stage and plays that wonderful music written by Thomas Dolby. And I’m Ed Menje. Ken Gale: I’m Ken Gale. Ed: And on the phone we got Steve Gerber. Steve Gerber: Hello.

Ed: Hello. So did the Howard the Duck music bring back bad memories? Steve: Actually I could barely hear it over the phone. So, it didn’t have a chance to bring back… There are some good memories associated with it all. So, I was at one of the recording sessions — or rather one of the [music] video filming sessions — that they did for the movie. The video, I think, played about half-a-time on MTV, and it was nice to meet Thomas Dolby and some of those people… Ed: When did you start in comics? What year are we talking? Steve: Oh, 1972, actually; 22 years ago… 23½, actually. It was June of 1972. Ed: What was your first book? Steve: The very first thing I ever did for Marvel, I believe, was a plot for a “Man-Thing” story. That was not the first “Man-Thing” that appeared on the stands, but that was the first thing I ever wrote for them. Ed: So what was the first thing that appeared on the stands? Steve: Probably the first issue of Shanna the She-Devil [Dec. 1972], which I

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Howard the Duck TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

To be honest, the list of comic book writers whose prose and storytelling consistently blew my mind as a teenager was a pretty short one. While I really enjoyed Bob Haney and Doug Moench’s respective work — and Roy Thomas remained my favorite writer/ editor — there were three scribes working at Marvel whose efforts truly nailed those crazy, uncertain days of the early to mid-’70s. Don McGregor and Steve Englehart had been truly saying something about life in that time of liberation, ecological awareness, Vietnam, and Watergate. And there was another who especially captured the insanity of that nutty age.

Photo courtesy of Alan Light.

served as additional dialogue. Carole Seuling had written the original script… Nice lady. Ed: So you began with “Man-Thing” [in Fear], which you took over…? Steve: Yeah, that was the very first thing I did for them. And it was curious, too, because I had just read the introductory story or one of the introductory stories… I think they had done a guest shot with the character in “Ka-Zar,” or something like that, prior to my working on it, and I had just finished reading that and got my first assignment over the phone — I was still in St. Louis when I wrote it — from Roy Thomas. Ed: So how did you know Roy? Steve: Roy and I go back many, many years, to the time when I was actually about 13 years old. We met through a letter column in Hawkman… that’s basically it. I mean, you know, Roy had written some letter to Julie Schwartz’s Hawkman comic, talking about the old Justice Society characters in the earlier versions of the various DC characters. And it sort of piqued my interest. And he also lived in Missouri about… I don’t know… probably about 80 miles from where I lived. So I dropped him a note and asked him about this stuff and, you know, actually had the gall to say, “Well, gee, can you send me some pictures of these characters? I’d really be curious to see what they looked like.” And, amazingly, he was gracious enough to respond and actually loaned me a few Golden Age comics through the mail, if you can picture that. Which was how I kind of got my grounding in all of the stuff that came before 1960 or so. Ed: So you were pretty new to comics then?… If you didn’t know who the Justice Society was and you were reading Hawkman, you must have been pretty new to comics. Steve: Well, no. I was born in 1947, so, by the time that I was old enough to read, the Justice Society was virtually gone, and I had never seen those books. I remember the Superman and Batman books from the early ’50s. Some of those are still dearly and fondly remembered, but I had never seen any of the other super-hero characters, other than Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. I didn’t know there were any [others]. Ed: So you knew Roy and he invited you to write comics. Is that how you got in? Steve: Basically, that’s it. I was working in advertising in an agency in St. Louis, and writing savings and loan commercials, and that sort of thing. Roy had just been promoted to editor of Marvel Comics, and I dropped him a line, at some point, and said, “Look, I’m going crazy. I can’t write another, you know, savings and loan jingle or I’m going to lose my mind. Is there anything open at Marvel?” And, coincidentally, I had written him at exactly the time Marvel had started to expand. Stan had just become publisher as opposed to editor… The conglomerate that would be so near and dear to my heart in later years, Cadence Industries, had just bought Marvel and they were right on the verge of their first major expansion. So, basically, he said, “Yeah, we’ve got something.” Sent me a writer’s test (which I don’t know if they do anymore). I took it, sent it back to them, and they said, “Yeah, you’re qualified.” So that was how I got the job at Marvel. Ed: Your first job was dialoguing Shanna? Steve: I worked as a proofreader and editorial assistant in the office, and my first actual scripting job for Marvel was the first issue of Shanna, the She-Devil. Ed: What a great beginning. Steve: A peculiar beginning, anyway. It certainly doesn’t happen that way anymore. Ed: Marvel was pretty different in those days… What was it like? Steve: Oh, Marvel was a madhouse in those days. There were 15 people in an office. We were at 625 Madison Avenue, corner of 56th, 57th, something like that, down as far up as 57th. It was like a block or so below. And the office was about the size of the editor’s office [today]… a tiny little place with about 15 or 16 people there. And we turned out all of those books from that tiny office. Well, not the writing and drawing, of course. Those were done by freelancers, but the editorial staff was all contained in that little office. And somehow we managed to get out everything we needed to do. Ken: Yeah, I sort of joined comics just a few years later and the thing I remember most is all the parties. Every week there were anywhere from one to three parties. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

Photo by Alan Light 31

Above: Low-resolution photo of “Nuff Said” radio show hosts Ken Gale (left) and Ed Menja.

Previous spread: Steve Gerber collaborator Mary Skrenes ran the 1976 Howard the Duck presidential campaign, enlisting buddy Bernie Wrightson to render the waterfowl. Photo of Gerber by Alan Light taken at the 1982 San Diego Comic-Con.

Below: Items from Steve Gerber’s University City High School senior class yearbook, where he was given the “Funniest Boy” superlative for the Class of 1965. Note the future writer’s inscription. (Gerber’s alma mater is located in St. Louis, Missouri.)

Steve: Well, I don’t know. I was a family man in those days, so I didn’t get to too many of those. That came later for me, I guess. You know, post-divorce. But it was an unusual time in comics because there were an awful lot of young people coming into the field at that time who, prior to this, virtually everyone in the comics had had come in during the 1940s, a few during the ’50s, and, all of a sudden, there was this enormous influx of new people and all of us roughly the same age, all of us strangely seemed to be from the Midwest, which I can’t explain. But it does seem to be the case. And it was a very unusual time. I mean, everyone was learning the whole science of comics all over again, from the start. Ken: I was doing some research for this show, I noted that you were [designated] the “Funniest Boy of 1965.” Steve: God, where did you get that one? Ken: You wrote it. Steve: It’s true. Was that in the “Deadline Doom” [Howard the Duck #16, Sept. 1977] issue…? Ken: I think that was in “The Kids Night Out” [Giant-Size ManThing #4, May 1975]. Steve: Oh, could be. Yeah, it’s true. University City High School, Class of ’65. Ken: So what did you do to be to become “Funniest Boy”? Steve: It was mostly the stuff that I had written for the school paper, and school assemblies, and stuff like that. Ken: “Kid’s Night Out,” since I’ve mentioned it, was a Man-Thing story about the trials and tribulations of being a fat teenager. Was that autobiographical at all?

Steve: If I hadn’t been inclined to write, I could have grown up to have been [former fat kid and exercise guru] Richard Simmons. It’s a horrible thought, but it’s true. I was, you know, the kid that was picked last to play softball and for the team, and the one who tripped and fell all over himself every time he had to run the 50-yard dash. And all of that stuff. Ken: Did you have a gym teacher like the one in that story? Steve: All the gym teachers are like the one in the story. They’re all one person. They’re all clones of each other… There is no other gym teacher. It’s like the joke about the Christmas fruitcake. There’s only one of them and it gets passed to different people each year, right? There’s only one gym teacher in the whole world. [And] that’s the gym teacher. Ken: Well, was there a [real] girl like [the one in the story]…? Steve: The answer is no. That was fictionalization and wish fulfillment. One interesting thing about [the story] was that I had actually waited to write it until I was no longer overweight. It was it was one of those things where I wanted to make sure that I still felt that way, you know, after I could walk down the street without people going… you know… And I did, in fact, feel more strongly about it. Ken: Now was that story in Giant-Size Man-Thing #1? Because that was a pretty heavy story for those days… What kind of reaction did you get at the office when you turned in something like that? Steve: Well, the major reaction at the office was, “When the hell are you going to get this story [done]?” And because it was so late… That was probably the hardest story, the most difficult story I’ve ever written, and it took a long, long time. But the reaction to it was generally pretty positive. I mean, actually, that story would be much more difficult to do today than it was in whenever that was 1974 or so. Ken: Why do you say that? Steve: Because people these days, readers seem to be less receptive to comics stories that are about much of anything. Ken: Despite the influence of people like Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, and Frank Miller? Steve: Yes, despite that. Even Alan has experienced some of this. I mean, look at the huge reception that Big Numbers got. You know, the Frank Miller stuff is unusual in that, although he does very good stuff… he’s also a very good friend of mine… but it’s very definitely clearly within that action/adventure genre of not necessarily super-hero stuff, but almost always something you’d expect to see in an action movie. You know, that kind of thing, which is not a criticism. I love his stuff. I think it’s terrific. But the kind of stories that I was doing back then that had a lot more to do with people who were just people are almost impossible to write these days. The fans don’t want to read them. Ken: So would you say that comics have taken several steps backward since the ’70s? Steve: In some ways, yes. Ken: What happened? Steve: Oh, boy! I’ve got to be a little bit ginger about this [laughter] because I don’t want to mention too many names. But basically Marvel, during the 1980s, was so homogenized — the product that they were churning out — that a whole generation of readers was created, who didn’t know that comics could be anything other than a bunch of costumes fighting each other. And it spoiled the market. It really has. I don’t want to lend the impression that it’s exclusively that or that I’m, you know, down on the readers or down on the market or anything, but it’s changed. There is not the open-mindedness, there’s not the curiosity about what can be done with the medium that was #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Zombie, Man-Thing TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

there 20 years ago. Ken: Well, that’s an interesting way of putting it: lack of curiosity. Although now, of course, in the ‘80s, when you had a whole bunch of new companies come up… Steve: Right, in the early ‘80s. Ken: And certainly Eclipse was continuing the type of things that you did. Steve: Right. Ken: So you’re sort of putting it, “Since Marvel is sort of the way people think of comic books, when Marvel takes a step back, then the industry is sort of taking a step back with them.” Steve: Well, I’m just trying to be a little bit realistic about it. I mean, in terms of the number of books sold by any of these companies, Marvel (until, really, about the past six months or a year) had about 60% of the comic book market — 60% of everything that was sold — certainly in what we call the direct market, the comic book stores, as opposed to the newsstands. And Marvel Comics were the books that people learned to read comics from… you know, gained most of their ideas about comics from. What happened to Marvel in the ’80s, I think, shaped a whole generation of readers. Ken: Well, yeah, it makes unfortunate sense. Steve: It does. I’m sorry to have to say it myself. I’m not sure that isn’t changing now. I think it’s on the verge of changing if it hasn’t yet, but it’s taken a long, long time to do it. Ken: What do you think is changing it? Steve: I think people are getting tired of this formula stuff. It’s inevitable. I mean, these things do go in cycles, but they go in very long cycles sometimes. This particular cycle of super-hero stuff has lasted longer than anyone has ever seen it last in the industry before that. That does seem to be changing somewhat. I mean, even the newer super-hero characters that are being done these days are quite a bit different from the things that were being done at Marvel during the ’80s. Ken: For example…? Steve: I’m working on the Ultraverse line of comics and the one example I’d cite right away is one of the more prominent characters from that line, called “Prime.” It was written by Len Strazewski and Gerard Jones and drawn by Norm Breyfogle. And it’s kind of a really perverse twist on the Captain Marvel idea. It’s being done in a way that I’ve never seen it done before, and it has gained a certain level of acceptance with the audience. People do like it. You know, it’s still because of the current state of the market, the depressed state of the comic book market at the moment. It’s still having a hard time, you know, breaking through the barriers to a lot of new readers. But it’s getting there. It’s making progress slowly but surely. Ken: Let’s get back to your stuff at Marvel. Now, was it you who came up with the “whatever knows fear burns at the touch of Man-Thing”? Is that yours? Steve: Well, I don’t know… I didn’t come up with the power because the character was created before I worked on it. I may COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

have come up with the line… I honestly don’t know. Ken: Because I connect Man-Thing so much with you that I really don’t remember anything Gerry did with it. Steve: Well, there are only two or three stories that were done before I worked on it. One, the very first appearance of the character, I think, was in the very first issue of a book called Savage Tales [May 1971], a black-&-white story that was drawn by Gray Morrow and written by Gerry Conway. And then, as I said, there was that “Ka-Zar” story and one story in Fear before I took it over. And I believe that’s it. I wrote all of the rest of them throughout the ’70s. Ken: Yeah, I noticed you’re so good at writing dialogue and comic books themselves are so dialogue-oriented, and yet the Man-Thing stories you wrote were very caption heavy. Steve: I had a lead character who couldn’t talk. Ken: Yeah, I mean, it’s an interesting choice, especially when [you were] sticking with it for so long… It’s an interesting challenge having to write a character who doesn’t talk, who doesn’t think… all he does is feel. Steve: Right. I had a whole series of those characters for a while in the ’70s. It was a nightmare, really. I was also writing a book, I don’t know if you remember it, called Tales of the Zombie. Did you ever see that one? Ken: Oh, yeah. [laughs] Steve: Black-&-white comic about a dead guy, and he also barely spoke a word or two, here and there. Couldn’t feel anything and really didn’t even have Man-Thing’s empathic nature to go on. He just sort of walked around being dead and involving himself in stories. And I got my fill of characters like that by the time I left Man-Thing. Ken: But you did so many of them. Were you being typecast or you just… Steve: Oh, no, I

Above: Gerber received some unusual assignments as nascent scripter at Marvel Comics, including the black-&-white horror series in Tales of the Zombie, where he chronicled the un-life of Simon Garth. His stories were usually drawn by Pablo Marcos, who produced this exquisite illustration. Below: Another excellent series (sometimes drawn by the excellent Mike Ploog) written by Gerber was Man-Thing. This panel detail is from Giant-Size Man-Thing #1 [Aug. ’74].

Above: Another horror-themed assignment during his Marvel years was “Son of Satan,” in Marvel Spotlight. This hand-colored commission piece is by Jim Mooney. Below: About the abrupt first appearance of his most famous creation, Gerber told The Village Voice, “I can’t tell you why exactly it was a duck. All I know is that I needed a gag to top the barbarian jumping out of the jar of peanut butter, and the whole creation of the character came in a second and a half.” He also told the correspondent that the name Howard came from a high school friend who was obsessed with Donald Duck. Fear #19 panel art by Val Mayerik and Sal Trapani.

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Son of Satan, Howard the Duck TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

don’t. I don’t think so. The Zombie stuff really began before “Man-Thing” had caught on hugely, as I recall. So I don’t think it really had anything to do with that. I was just, you know, the available writer and maybe the one they felt might have most empathy for a zombie at the time. It’s interesting. Something else that I took from… this one got stuck on Howard and not on the fat kid… I took an aptitude test in high school and the results were the occupation that I was most suited to, I believe, were social worker and mortician. So, I mean, maybe Zombie was a logical choice for me. I don’t know. Ken: Now, I also noticed at the time there was a lot of environmentalism in the “Man-Thing” stories especially. I mean, you worked a lot of that into your stories. Did you get much of a reaction of that nature? Steve: No. Strangely, it didn’t provoke much reaction at the time. We didn’t we didn’t have quite the vocal right wing we have today. They’re actually all in power at the time. So they weren’t reading comic books. They were busy governing the nation. And, no, it really didn’t provoke much controversy at all. I think most of the people reading comics at the time were in sympathy with it. Ken: Do you did you get any reaction from activists? Steve: Not particularly. (Oh, God, this is going to be great!) The only activists I recall hearing from in person, no less, were the Satanists who really liked what I was doing in the Son of Satan comic. They enjoyed that. Actually came up to the office, gave me copies of The Satanic Bible and something else, you know, and dropped by and had a nice conversation with me. Ken: A “nice conversation”? Steve: Oh, very nice. Very civil conversation. Yeah. We sat out in the lobby at Marvel. Ed: I’m sure you must have made sure they didn’t make off with any personal items…? Steve: Yeah. Counted my fingers, all of that. No, they were very nice people. You know, I think most of them probably worked on Wall Street (or dressed like it, anyway). And those were the only activists that I heard from during the entire time I was at Marvel.

Ken: What kind of reaction did they have? I mean, Son of Satan was just a comic book. Steve: Yeah, that’s what I thought. They were pleased that I was treating the… We never really dealt with Satanism as a religion in that book, as strange as that sounds. But they were pleased with the fact that I was taking it all very seriously as opposed to, you know, setting up every character who had anything to do with Satan as a villain, right? Something like that. Ed: That’s pretty funny. Steve: It was strange. Of course, there was the dead duck that was sent to the office after… after Howard the Duck, quote/unquote, “died.” I was in St. Louis visiting relatives at the time, but Marvel got a package containing a duck carcass with a note attached to it. Scrawled on the note were the words, “Murderers. How dare you kill this duck?” It was not as bad as it sounds. It wasn’t a duck that somebody shot and stuck in the mail. It was something that had been eaten for Thanksgiving or Christmas, and the remains of the duck were sent to Marvel. Ken: So this was after you were no longer working at Marvel? Steve: No, this was after the Duck’s very first appearance, actually. In the first story where he appeared, we nominally killed him off to sort of get him out of the “Man-Thing” book for a while, because editorially, they felt that a duck running around in a horror book didn’t make an awful lot of sense. And the reaction to it was pretty violent. You know, the fan mail was horrified, you know, that we had gotten rid of the character and this was just the ultimate manifestation of that. Ken: Uh, well, before we go into more Howard the Duck, I think I’d like to do a little bit of a musical break here. [Plays “Precious,” by the Pretenders]… Did you ever get to meet any of the Pretenders because of that? [See page 70, readers! — Y.E.] Steve: No. No, I never did, but I would love to, at any time. Ken: Tell us about the origin of Howard the Duck. Steve: The origin of Howard the Duck… the comic-book origin or the real-world origin? Ken: The real-world origin. Steve: Well, the real-world origin started this way: I was doing a story in the “Man-Thing” series about multiple realities colliding with each other. Sword-&-sorcery worlds impinging on the real world — on our world — and, you know, just various different sorts of things. And I needed a visual gag to top a barbarian jumping out of a jar of peanut butter in a little house in Florida, while I was sitting there trying to puzzle that out. This is in an apartment in Park Slope, in Brooklyn, actually where I was when I was writing this story. I had an office that faced out into a row of backyards. You know, the way the brownstones are arranged out there. And someone in the neighborhood had just bought, I gather, a new stereo system [with] huge speakers and had spent so much on the stereo system and the speakers that he could only afford one record, which he was playing over and over and over again, a salsa record. It’s burned into my memory

Howard the Duck, Beverly Switzler TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Colan penciled piece courtesy of Glen Gold.

and I went into a sort of hypnotic state, and I found myself typing, you know, and then a duck walks out from behind the bushes, you know, and starts talking to the barbarian. And that’s where the character came from. It was not even a conscious thought process…. Ken: Did pretty good for a non-conscious thought process… Steve: I think all the best ideas come that way. I mean, Jerry Siegel claims the Superman came to him in his sleep, you know, so… Ken: Oh, that’s a good analogy of Jerry Siegel… So Howard the Duck kind of took on a life of its own that must have far surpassed anything that you had thought about? Steve: It really did. I mean, at the time, it was just a joke. You know, it was something to do for as a one-panel gag in the story. This barbarian has just plunged his sword into the muck of the Florida swamp and said something like, “What is a warrior to do when the world about him has all turned absurd.” And the duck walks out from behind the bushes and says, “Buddy, you don’t know the meaning of absurdity.” And that was the introduction of the character. And, at that point, I had absolutely no thought of taking this a continuing character anyplace. Ken: So how did he continue? Was it the readers? Was it the editor? Was it you? Steve: It was the readers. The reaction to it was absolutely overwhelming. People thought this was just the strangest thing they had ever seen and wanted to see more of it. And the idea of a character like that walking around in an otherwise supposedly realistic world was just something that had not been done for a long, long time. And people were ready for it, I guess. Ken: Why Cleveland? Steve: Cleveland was the joke city of the moment, actually. I had never been to Cleveland at the time I wrote that. It just seemed like the logical place. I mean, somewhere in the Rust Belt, someplace that was then, you know, sort of a city on its way down. It seemed like the perfect location for a character like that. Ken: Did you get to Cleveland sometime during the series? Steve: I went through it. I’ve never actually spent any time in Cleveland. Ed: I spent a week. Steve: All the landmarks and everything were completely made up and nobody in Cleveland ever complained, which I found interesting. Ken: I remember going through Cleveland in the late ’70s, when everybody was doing this… you know… “I Love New York” and “I Love L.A.,” and all this stuff. And there was a bumper sticker in Cleveland saying, “I Like Cleveland.” Steve: Exactly. “I Can Tolerate Cleveland.” Yes, that’s exactly right… It had that reputation at the time of just being the city where nothing ever happened, you know, and the city that where people had no reason ever to go there. And it seemed perfect for the duck. Ken: Right. And they’re still doing it. They have the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but there’s no building… Steve: Oh, that’s true. But Cleveland, I think, is sort of regenerating itself now. Ken: Yeah, I don’t think the rivers catch fire anymore. Steve: No,they did clean up the river, right? Ken: I don’t know if it’s a forgotten classic or what, but the “Dreaded Deadline Doom” story. Now, you sort of had a lot of trouble with deadlines, didn’t you? Steve: Yeah. I wish I could say I don’t anymore, but that’s not true either. It’s rough turning out a monthly series all by yourself… COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

Ken: But that “Dreaded Deadline Doom” issue, where everything in the whole comic was two-page spreads, one piece of artwork that spread over two pages, with… what would you call it? One gigantic caption…? Steve: Well, yeah, I mean it was just a prose accompanying piece for each for each piece of artwork. Ken: I remember a lot of talk at conventions in those days about that issue. Steve: People either liked it or hated it. It’s interesting that everybody remembers it, and most of the people who do remember it now think it was actually something pretty special. It really was done for exactly the reasons that we wrote about in the book. I was moving across country and we had to get a book done really quickly. And the only way to do it was not to have one artist do it in order to get the book out on time. So I wrote this thing that could be drawn by eight or ten different people. And the prose, of course, is a lot easier to write than a comic-book script because you’re not thinking about choreography of action and, you know, where which picture comes after and before… and arrangement of

Above: Gene Colan’s pencils for the cover of Howard the Duck #16 [Sept. ’77]. Below: Master of Quack-Fu, from HTD #3 [May ’76]. Pencils by John Buscema, inks by Steve Leialoha.

Left: Panel detail from Daredevil #108, with art by Bob Brown and Paul Gulacy. Gerber wrote 20 issues of DD between 1973–75. Bottom: Bev Switzler makes an entrance in this Howard the Duck house ad detail. Art by Gene Colan and Steve Leialoha.

California. But he enjoyed it. Ken: Did he see it before it was done or after? Steve: I really don’t remember. I mean, everybody sort of took it as a bit of a compliment when they were either parodied or completely, you know, impaled in some Howard story. I mean, poor Don McGregor got the second issue with that, the War of the Worlds parody at the beginning, the seven-legged walkers or whatever they were called… the Septapods or, I guess, they were originally called Tripods in the H.G. Wells thing. And he bristled a bit, but took it in good humor. Ken: Well, Don was getting satirized right and left. I remember some Avengers, where they’re trying to get all the former Avengers to come back and there’s this huge word balloon of Black Panther’s, saying that he can’t do it. And Thor just goes, ”Black Panther says ‘nay.’” Steve: Right. Ed: I mean, Don really got it from everybody. Steve: He did. Well, He had a very distinctive style, whether, you know, again, it was something people either really liked or really despised. But Don had a very, very distinctive style. And whenever anybody does that, it becomes a natural object of parody. Ken: You were writing Daredevil early on. Steve: Right. I did. About a year, a year-and-a-half of Daredevil. That’s right. Ken: Because, at the time, Daredevil was at probably its lowest ebb. Do you remember what you had to… what you thought about when you took it over? Steve: I probably thought, “Why are they doing this to me?,” actually. It was not one of my favorite characters and not something I had any particularly desire to write, but they needed somebody to write it. And I had done, I think, a fill-in or a fill-in script over one of Gerry Conway’s plots (or something like that) for the book. And, at the time, I seemed like the logical choice because I was the one who had worked on it most recently. Ken: Because I remember at the time I personally liked the character and I had stopped buying it and I started again when a friend of mine got it. And you had been writing it. Steve: Is that right? Really? You know, I don’t have any real strong opinions about my stuff on Daredevil, actually. Ken: I remember purely because I was I started getting it again after having dropped it for a couple of years. Steve: You know, I mean, the one thing that was nice about it was that I got a chance to work with Bob Brown, who drew the book for a while, and his stuff was just magnificent. I mean, he got some of the worst inkers in the world, you know, at Marvel during that time. And it’s a shame that people never really saw how beautiful those pencils were. Yeah, he was a magnificent artist, really, really fine artist and very, very smart man, and somebody I would love to have worked with for a long, long time after that. Unfortunately, he died about two years after that. Ken: Now, Howard the Duck was embroiled in quite a controversy with Marvel Comics. Steve: Oh, yes. Ken: Why don’t you tell us about that? Steve: Well, here came a time in about 1977, ’78, where Marvel and I parted ways partly over the ownership of the Howard the Duck character. And it resulted in a very expensive, very prolonged lawsuit that was finally settled out of court. Marvel owns the character, but there were arrangements made… Unfortunately, the settlement is confidential. I can’t speak about the details, but that’s basically it. It was a long, painful episode and not something that’s really worth a whole lot of time to talk #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Daredevil, Beverly Switzler TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

panels on the page and all of that. It’s just a lot simpler to write prose, and that was how the book got done and why it got done that way. Ken: It was interesting, some of the artists in there… I mean, Dick Giordano didn’t do very much for Marvel… Steve: No, that’s true. Although he was doing stuff at the time. He had, just possibly a year or so earlier, finished a whole adaptation of the original Bram Stoker Dracula with Roy Thomas. He was doing some stuff for Marvel. Not a great deal, you know. Dick Giordano… I think Al Milgrom… Alan Weiss, I think, is in there… and John Buscema. I can’t even remember all of the people… Ken: Tom Palmer has pencils in there. Steve: That’s right, yes. Ken: No, we didn’t get to see his pencils very often. Steve: Very rarely. Yeah. Ken: That was quite a treat. Steve: I thought it was, actually. I thought it worked out pretty well, really. Ken: You kept making fun of yourself all through the issue. Steve: Oh, sure. Yeah. Ken: Which, I think, is what keeps it from being too self-indulgent. Is that because you were aware it was self-indulgent? Steve: Oh, sure. Yeah. I mean, it really was done strictly for the purpose of keeping us on schedule. And when, you know, when you’re doing something like that, it’s like coming out and tap dancing, you know, before the band gets its instruments set up… and that really was the position we were in. So there was very little we could do except make fun of that position. Yeah. Ken: So who’s Beverly? She anybody? Beverly, Howard’s love interest. Steve: Who was Beverly? The name was suggested by Mary Skrenes, who was my writing partner on a couple of things — Omega and one or two other things I did — and the character was very loosely based on her. This name, Beverly Switzler, her last name is the name of a building on the campus of the University of Missouri, at Columbia: Switzler Hall. Ken: Well, now it can be told! Because people talked about whether it was Mary or not. So, how much how much [is] she really like Beverly? Steve: How much is Mary really like Beverly? In some ways, a great deal and, in other ways…? Not at all. You know, I mean, Beverly and Mary are not the same person, but there are aspects of Mary in Beverly. Ken: Oh, one thing I wanted to ask you: what did Doug Moench think of your ”Master of Quack Fu”? Steve: Doug loved it, as I recall. Doug and I are quite good friends still. You know, we don’t see each other much. He lives in Pennsylvania and I live out here in quivering

The Comics Journal TM & © Fantagraphics. Howard the Duck TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Thundarr the Barbarian TM & © the respective copyright holder.

about, except for maybe the results that it had later in terms of what it did for raising the consciousness of other artists and writers in the business about the value of their characters. Ken: Because that was really just after Jerry Siegel’s battle with DC, wasn’t it? Steve: Right. About a year after, yes. Ken: So that sort of mindset of, you know, “We writers and artists are important” was starting to develop. But, unfortunately, being right at the front there, you were going to get the biggest fight. Steve: It was a huge fight. I mean, you have you have to understand the industry has changed since then enormously. The writers and artists, at the time that I was doing Howard the Duck, were not even paid royalties on the sales of their books. We got a flat page rate for everything we wrote, which had been the case, really, in comics from, good grief, from 1938 onwards, at least, you know… The Howard the Duck battle, because it was so public and because it was so loud, really did, I think, influence a lot of people in terms of what they felt they could — and should — ask for themselves, for the work they were doing, and that had a very positive effect. Ken: How long did the lawsuit go on? Steve: Several years. Ken: So now, of course, you weren’t writing for Marvel Comics. So what were you doing? Steve: During most of the ’80s? I was working in animation out here… I co-created a series called “Thundarr the Barbarian,” and then worked on several others that I’d rather not mention… [laughter] Ken: That bad, huh? Steve: Oh, infinitely worse. And later, toward the end of the ‘80s, right after the lawsuit, I worked on the G.I. Joe series and a few other things. I spent most of the ’80s doing animation. Ed: Which we all see now on the Cartoon Network. Steve: Well, yeah. Virtually everything I did is still running someplace. I run into things from time to time that I haven’t thought about in years and would prefer not to… And a few that were good. G.I. Joe was a very good series, and Thundarr had its moments… Just about everything else is not worth discussing… Ken: Do you get royalties from them? Steve: Nope, same as comics. Ken: Do animators get royalties nowadays? Steve: No. In fact, the animation field, if anything, is worse than comics for most of the people who work in it. A very few people have, I suppose, what you’d call the clout now to demand royalties (or residuals, as they’re called in television) for the work they do. This is common practice in live-action television… Writers who do live-action TV see something, some amount, every time one of their shows is rerun, but they’re represented by the Writers Guild of America. And the animation writers are not because of a strange labor situation that took place back in the 1930s. The writers in animation have been trying for years to sever themselves from the cartoonists union and have never been able to do it… There may be [hope for the animation industry]. I honestly don’t know. I haven’t had a lot to do with it for the past several years. So I don’t know where the state of things are now. The Writers Guild wanted to represent writers in animation, but was never able to convince the National Labor Relations Board that the writers should be severed from the other union. It’s a very complicated question… I testified at one of the hearings, as did a couple dozen other animation writers. And it’s a very, very complicated labor relations, labor law question. I’m certainly no expert on it, but COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

apparently severing one part of a profession from the rest of a union is a very difficult thing to do under most labor laws. Ken: Now, why end up in animation and not go to DC? Steve: Well, I was in California, for one thing. In New York, I probably would have. The animation thing was totally an accident. I had been working on some comics for Hanna-Barbera out here, and a very good friend of mine, Mark Evanier, who writes Groo and The Mighty Magnor, and various other things in comics, also has done much, much, much more extensive work in animation than I and mentioned to me that a studio called Ruby-Spears was doing Plastic Man and it was a character I had always wanted to write and never realized the implications of getting into animation in general and just said, “Gee, do you think you can get me an appointment out there? I’d really like to go in and see if I could write this

Above: The March 1981 edition of The Comics Journal [#62] led their news section with a report on Gerber suing Marvel. Below: Alex Toth-designed Thundarr the Barbarian characters. The show was created by Gerber and Joe Ruby.

Above: Marvel Comics Super Special #1 [Sept. ’77], cover art by Alan Weiss and Gray Morrow.

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

KISS TM & © KISS Catalog, Ltd. Marvel Super Special TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Below: Photo of Stan Lee, Steve Gerber, Alan Weiss, and the band (and their manager) from inside that top-selling magazine.

comics, by vastly other means. Particularly today, but that is the way it’s happened for me most of the time… Nowadays, people do meet people at conventions and that sort of thing. And so those acquaintances are made also. Don’t forget, in both Marvel and then later in the animation field, I did have to prove myself once I got in. Even at Marvel, I had to take that writer’s test, which was they sent you six pages of artwork with no balloons on it and said, “Here, write this.” They figured, if you could do a credible job of it, you could probably write comics. So, I mean, there were qualifications of a sort, at any rate, for both those jobs. Ed: [After music interlude] And we’re here with the “funniest boy of 1965.” Hasn’t lost much of that over the time that he’s mellowed and aged, I suppose: Steve Gerber. Steve: What? Do I sound like I’ve mellowed? Really? Oh God, I’ve got to do something about this. It’s terrible. Ed: I’ve always wondered, when you were writing The Defenders, did you have any plans for that mass-murdering elf that kept showing up or… Steve: Everybody asks that… No, I mean, first of all, the elf… Let me explain where it came from: we had been doing a four-part story with a group of characters called the Sons of the Serpent, sort of Marvel’s quasi-Ku Klux Klan group. And the artist, Sal Buscema, called me up at one point and said, “You know, I’m really getting sick of drawing these snake suits. Can we do something else?” And I promised him, “Yeah, okay. I’ll stick something else in the next issue, so that you won’t have to… There’ll be a page where you don’t have to draw snake suits.” And basically, that came out of nowhere. Also, I had no idea what I was doing or how I was going to resolve it. I just figured that, you know, by the time, the time rolled around to explain what was going on with this elf that just showed up, showed up and shot people, I would figure something out. What Marvel did with it, ultimately having the elf run over by a truck was what I figured would be the second-best ending. Ed: I seem to remember that the ending is because they didn’t know what to do with them either. Steve: Absolutely. Not a clue what to do with it. Neither did I. thing.” And that’s what happened. I mean, I went in, got a script, But I would have figured something out. Ken: Right. [Referring to music just played] Now, of course, as it turned out, and they hired me to come on staff. the other song we played was by KISS. And you wrote the first Ken: So again, you had a connection? KISS comic…? Steve: Well, yeah. I had a way to get in the door. It’s depressing, isn’t it?… My whole career is due to the kindness of Steve: Yes, I did. Ken: And tell us the the genesis of that. strangers or near strangers… Steve: Well, KISS had actually approached Marvel about doKen: Well, that’s sort of the way comics have been for a long ing a comic book. Gene Simmons was a huge Marvel fan and a time. huge comic book fan in general. And the band, obviously, with Steve: Oh, sure. Yeah. It’s the way every field is, really. I the costumes that they wore in those days and the face paint mean, there are people who get into both animation and and all of that lent itself to, you know, the super-hero treatment really easily. So Stan Lee, I guess, had asked me to write it. You know, I’m not sure why, but I was the one chosen. You had asked me before about the Pretenders. I’ve never met them, but the members of KISS and I did work very closely together on the creation of that book. I spent an awful lot of time with them, and the book did hugely. It’s now a huge collector’s item, I’m told. I don’t have any copies of it myself, but I wish I did, But that was the genesis of it. It was their idea, basically. Ken: I believe it was the top-selling comic book of all time when it came out. Steve: That’s possible. I don’t know. I truly don’t know… It was very successful. That I do know. Ed: So why didn’t you do the second one? Steve: I think by the time we did the second one, I had already split from Marvel.

KISS TM & © KISS Catalog, Ltd. Marvel Super Special, Fear, Man-Thing TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Superman, Phantom Zone TM & © DC Comics.

remember, long ago, it must have been late ’50s/early ’60s of a Superboy, which had an alternative universe of Superboy, never came to Earth and grew up on Krypton. And Krypton had a socialistic government and Superboy wanted to go into a particular field, but he wasn’t allowed to. And I just didn’t know how to interpret that whole thing, whether it was pro or con. Do you recall anything? You know something…? Steve: I do. I do recall that book. I probably read it at about the same age you did. It’s a Superman story that takes place entirely in the Fortress of Solitude, actually. And Batman and Robin show up for Superman’s birthday. (Can you believe I’m doing this? Would you believe I remember this stuff?) Ed: That was an Alan Moore story… Steve: And computer program that would show him what his life was like had Krypton never exploded… Ken: Did he have two S’s on his chest…? Steve: Jor-El shoots him into space. And then the planet, Ed: Yeah, it could have been because the guy they gave it to (I they managed to stabilize the planet and they bring the rocket don’t want to mention Ralph Macchio by name)… but he didn’t back. And it’s not a socialistic government, as I recall. It’s a technocratic government. The computer picks an occupation like rock ’n’ roll. He boasted as much in the letter column and for him. it showed in the script. And I am so surprised that everybody at Caller Two: Nevertheless, he wasn’t [getting] the occupaMarvel was surprised that it didn’t sell as well as yours. tion that he wanted. Steve: Huh? Well, I don’t know if it would have anyway, to be honest with you, the first one was something so unusual and Steve: Yes, right. He wanted to be a starship pilot and they so unprecedented that I think a lot of the sales were simply due wouldn’t allow it. They… I can’t recall what he ultimately had to become, but that’s absolutely right. That is the way the story to that. The second one… I don’t know. I’ve never read it. So I went. don’t I can’t tell you whether it was any good or not… [DiscusCaller Two: [Refers to absurdity of Nancy Kerrigan/Tonya sion of a gimmick used to promote the KISS book]. Harding scandal of that time Ken: We have some of our listeners wondering what we’re period] It seems like we really talking about. have to turn to comic books to Steve: As a promotional thing for the book, the four get the serious news. members of KISS went to the printing plant where the book Steve: Sometimes I felt was printed and the samples of their blood were withdrawn that way, believe me, that from their fingertips and placed in the ink that was used to print the book. Somebody said, nowadays you couldn’t sell that we were doing more serious things in comic books, book. Everybody would be afraid of catching something from certainly than they would it. And it’s probably true. [The show is opened for listener callallow on dramatic television, ins.] Watch… It’s Ralph Macchio… Why don’t you let me say something good about him? Because, again, I’ve never read the at any rate. Yes. Caller Two: Certainly [second] KISS book, and it may be as bad as you say it is. But this whole subject of racism Ralph is a very good editor. I’ve worked with him extensively at Marvel and I enjoy working with him a lot. He’s a quite good and superiority, because, uh, that was the whole thing friend of mine. [First caller questions about Todd McFarlane about the Nazis. And this is omitted.] the thing I would like to see. Ken: Hello? You’re on the air. [After discussion of Hitler Caller Two: I know you just talk about comics, but I was hating Superman.] Certainly curious: do you guys ever tackle writing stories about serious this thing about people being subjects like… racism? divided amongst themselves Steve: Umm, I don’t want to pat myself on the back. to keep off the management’s Ed: You’re talking to one of the best people in that genre of comic book writing. Steve Gerber wrote some of the most enter- back, such as politics itself. And this whole idea of elitism, taining and progressive political comics to this day. I think, should be the thing to Steve: Thank you. tackle in the comics would be Ed: You’re welcome. Thank you. I enjoyed reading them. terrific. Steve: A nice compliment. Thank you very much. Steve: Well, again, I would Caller Two: [After a discussion of racists are simpletons] I COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

THANKS to all the folks who helped with this Gerberthemed “Main Event” section, including: Mark Arnold, Paul Baresh, J. Michael Catron, Shaun Clancy, Heather Devitte-McKee, David Donovan, Steve Englehart, Ken Gale, Jeff Gelb, Clay Geerdes, Glen Gold, Alex Jay, Alan Kupperberg, Val Mayerik, David Miller, Lou Mougin, Ralph Reese, Eric Reynolds, Jason Sacks, Cory Sedlmaier, Mary Skrenes, Hugh Surratt, Alan Weiss, Pauline Weiss, and Michelle Wladich. This page: Clockwise from bottom is Fear #17 [Oct. ’73] cover by Frank Brunner; the KISS Marvel Super Special Gerber did not write [#5 Dec. ’78], Bob Larkin cover art; and cover detail from Phantom Zone #1 [Jan. ’82], Gene Colan and Tony DeZuñiga art.

Above: DC intern Byron Preiss receives a special thanks for suggesting the critically acclaimed Green Lantern/Green Arrow issues by Dennis O’Neil and Neal Adams be collected in paperback form. Two volumes were produced by Warner’s Paperback Library division in 1972, with covers by Adams.

recommend to you some of the Ultraverse books that we’re doing now. The there are more government conspiracies going on in these books than even I can keep track of. And one of the books is actually one of the characters is actually a corporate super-hero created by a corporation for a corporation, a character called Prototype that’s being written by Len Strazewski and Tom Mason. And Len also does writing for one of the financial papers and so has a pretty good insight into the way corporations work and the way they’re run. And I think you’ll find some interesting stuff in that book if you try it. Caller Two: How about Ralph Nader as a character? As a super-hero? Steve: Hasn’t been done yet, but it’s a good suggestion. Caller Two: How about Anti-Racist Man? Steve: You know, there’s an entire line of books being done now. Actually, two of them, founded by minority creators and those books actually are doing quite well. They’re not entirely, you know, themed around the question of racism and shouldn’t be, I don’t think, because, you know, the people do have more than one concern in life. Even if that’s something that they have to deal with every day. But those books are doing quite well. There are a series of books under the Milestone imprint, and I forget the other one… It’s all interesting stuff. And all of these things

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Howard the Duck cover TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Courtesy of Glen Gold. Man-Thing panel detail © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Above: It is said this is the unused version of Howard the Duck #12 [May ’77] cover, the postal delivery of which was delayed when it was temporarily lost, so Gene Colan and Tom Palmer did an exact replication (presumably based on Colan’s pencils) to meet the Marvel deadline Below: Was it Tricky Dick who appeared as a member of the Entropists cult in Giant-Size Man-Thing #1 [Aug. 1974]? Gerber doesn’t remember! Art by Mike Ploog and Frank Chiaramonte.

as aspects of life do get dealt with in comic books. There’s a reason, I think, that we don’t, for example, have an Anti-Racist Man, you know, as a comic book character or Captain Equality or something, because kids, in particular, and adults, too, don’t really care to be preached at that much. They’re happy to look at various different aspects of life within the context of a comic book story… To take your example, you were talking about Superman earlier: the fact that he’s an alien, for example, can be used as all sorts of metaphors, you know, for racism,for individuality, for all sorts of things. Howard The Duck was another character that was literally a minority of one on the planet. You know, the only duck walking around. And you can use characters like that to make those points without hitting people over the head with it, if you know what I mean. [Short talk about violence and Caller Two exits.] Ken: Hello, you’re on the air. Prank Caller: [Burping sound] Steve: Howard. Hi. Stern. Not the duck. Ed: I’d rather hear the duck. Hello, you’re on the air. Another Prank Caller: [Maniacal laugh] Steve: [After third Prank Caller] I thought you had to call out to get those numbers. [laughs] I didn’t know they’re now calling you. I’m sorry. Go ahead. Ed: One of the stories in Man-Thing you wrote quite a while ago…? Do you recall the story where there was a group of people setting up their own — I don’t know — ecosystem with geodesic domes where they didn’t have to use any energy. Everything was self-contained and so that they didn’t do anything to the environment. They were part of the environment. And you created some sort of anti-environmental cult that ended up opposing them. Steve: Yeah. The Entropists, you’re talking about. Ed: The leader of the Entropists looked an awful lot like Richard Nixon… Steve: It looked exactly like Richard. That’s the sign of the times. The story was done in, what, 1973 or ’74…? Ken: Seventy-three or ’ 74. Was that your idea or the artist’s? Steve: I honestly don’t recall. I want to say it was the artist’s. Because I remember seeing it and bursting out laughing at how well he had done it. But I really don’t remember. Ken: That’s just what we were talking about with the our last real caller, as far as putting those kind of messages in the story. Because it was done in a very entertaining way, although I think part of it because the humor of having Nixon in there as the… Steve: Nixon was good for a laugh, no matter what you did. Yeah, it’s you could have put him anywhere behind the counter in a general store. He would still have been funny… Ken: You had mentioned Superman earlier. The only stuff you did for DC is some Superman stuff…? Steve: No, there were a few things. I wrote a Metal Men story [#45, May ’76] that Walt Simonson illustrated in the early ’70s and the Superman Phantom Zone mini-series [#1–4, Jan.–Apr. ’82]. And, later, I did the last issue of DC Comics Presents [#97, Sept. ’86], a story where we had Argo City fall to Earth and the Bizarro World blows up or implodes, actually. And it seems to me there are one or two other things… DC and I never had a whole lot of luck working together. I like a lot of the people there but, for some reason, every project I ever tried to do with them just, you know, withered and died horribly… I mean it. Some of them never got off the ground. Some of them got as far as having a book drawn and never quite… my wanting changes or something and not being able to get them… Various different things. It’s just almost everything that I ever tried to do with them just didn’t work out.

Metal Men TM & © DC Comics. Howard the Duck movie poster © Lucasfilm, LLC. Howard the Duck TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

problem is the technology was not quite up to what they were trying to do. They almost needed a suit without a midget in it, if you know what I mean. A fully automated duck robot kind of thing. And at the time the technology was just not there to do something like that. Ken: Well, now, what did you do? What did you consult? What exactly did you do as a consultant? Steve: Nothing. I read the script. I made a couple of suggestions. But, you know, when I was given the script, they told me basically, this is the movie we’re going to make. You know, if you have any thoughts, let us know what they are. I made half-a-dozen suggestions they took. Some didn’t take other [suggestions]. And that was it. Ken: What suggestions did they take? Steve: There’s one line near the beginning of the picture where Howard is looking at a copy of Playboy in the Duck world and makes some comment about the picture being airbrushed or something like that. And I told them that he would not be able to look at a copy of Playboy seriously, that this character would look at it and immediately react to it as… if he were looking at a toy soldier or as if he were looking at a you-know-what it is. I mean, an airbrushed picture of someone who doesn’t really exist in that form… Anyway, it was stuff like that. One or two little comments that the kind of found their way into the picture. And that was that was really about all. Ed: But you got paid. Steve: I did get some money. Yes, I did. Not enough, considering… I mean, you know, it’s Ken: Philosophical differences or personality or what a shame that picture is not… in some ways, happened? it’s not as bad as people think it is. [It’s] got Steve: You know, I’ve never been able to pin it down. I truly a terrible reputation because of the amount haven’t. Each one happened for a different reason until finally of money that was spent on it. But I have I just said, “I don’t think I can work with these people,” and seen so many worse pictures didn’t try anymore because… It’s not that I even have anything since then and before that. particularly against them; it just didn’t work out. It was a clash I do think that, while it’s far of something. from being a good movie, it Ken: It’s interesting because virtually every Marvel writer of was really treated unfairly. the ‘70s ended up at DC, getting pissed off at Jim Shooter for The real problems with it are one reason or another. And, of course, you went to animation. that the look of the duck, first Steve: Right. Don’t forget, in those early days, there was of all, and then, beyond that, only one other place to go… if somebody actually left Marvel, the voice of the duck, which is [they] went to DC or somebody actually left DC and went to pretty nondescript. And the… Marvel. But that’s the only place they ever went was from one to Well, that pretty much sums it the other. It was a two-company industry. That was it. up, I think. Nowadays, of course, you know, people leave Marvel or Ken: [After some technical leave DC, and they go to Image or they go to Malibu or they go problems] Hello? You’re on to Dark Horse or any number of other places. It’s a very different the air. industry now. Yet Another Ken: Okay, let’s take some more calls. Hello, you’re on the air. Prank Caller: Caller Four: About a few years back, they made a movie [Maniacal laughter] about Howard the Duck. Ed: Well, somebody enjoyed Steve: Yes, I know. Go ahead. the Howard the Duck movie. Caller Four: Did you ever got paid? Ken: You are on the air now. Steve: Yes, they paid me a consulting fee. Caller Five: Can Steve Ken: Jim Freund [is host of] our science fiction show, Hour of comment on one of my the Wolf, on Saturday mornings. He felt that the [movie] story favorite cartoons, Thundarr the wasn’t quite so bad, but if they’d have just gotten rid of the Barbarian? What was his role midget in the suit and done it in animation, it could have been in it? And if he had any quips the Who Framed Roger Rabbit of its time. about it? Steve: You know, it might have. I don’t know. I don’t think Steve: Oh, yeah, I did. I the animation really would have worked either, because mean, do you know that Jack you needed to believe that character as a real character. The Kirby also worked on that COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

Inset left: Rejected Metal Men #45 [May ’76] cover, with art by Walter Simonson and Bernie Wrightson. The piece soon appeared as the cover of The Comic Reader #136 [Oct. ’76]. Gerber wrote the launch of the short-lived revival. Below: The title character of the 1986 movie version of Howard the Duck was played by actor Ed Gale, who had to wear the array of items seen here. Gale’s bio at imbd.com relates that the movie was his film debut and, after his initial audition, he was told he was “too tall” to play the role. Bottom: Teaser poster promoting the movie, which is considered by many to one of Hollywood’s biggest disasters. (Though Gerber says he didn’t hate it!)

Above: Yep, that’s the legendary “good duck artist” Carl Barks having a laugh while perusing Howard the Duck #2 [Mar. 1976]! This pic appeared as the cover of the 1976 souvenir book for Newcon, held in Boston. Below: Original art of the opening of Omega the Unknown #4 [Sept. 1976], with art by Jim Mooney and Pablo Marcos.

Steve: Well, Omega, you’re right, only lasted about nine issues, I think. And the reason it was canceled was it just was not selling all that well. It’s one of my favorite things, too. The inspiration for it was that I was living in Hell’s Kitchen at the time and wanted to do a book about that area and also wanted to do a book that… At the time, if you recall, in the mid-’70s, when we did Omega, there were very few kid heroes in comics. The reaction to the kid heroes had been, you know, the entire Marvel line of books had been to do characters that were all adults, because, at the time, kids seemed more to want to more identify with adult characters. As much as I agreed with that basic principle, there was still something I thought was missing from all of those books. And I wanted to do a book about a 12- or 13-year-old kid growing up in New York City under very unusual circumstances. And that’s where that book came from. The super-hero stuff and all the rest of it were sort of trappings that were added onto it to give us an excuse to do the whole Hell’s Kitchen story. Foolkiller was a limited series to begin with that was sort of conceived as a novel, a book that would be done over ten issues and then would just stop, you know? And that’s also one of my favorite things that I’ve ever done in comics. Caller Six: I like particularly the third version and you really went into the character because the first two guys were very flaky, but the third one was a very average person. You know, his situation could have happened to anyone. And it was interesting to see how he reacted, even how he got himself prepared physically and psychologically… the sort of things that didn’t quite work as planned. I thought it was very well thought-out. Steve: Thank you very much. I did spend an awful lot of time thinking about that character, about how a character like that would… That book also has a real interesting origin behind it. As you know, there were two earlier Foolkiller characters, right? Caller Six: Yes, I remember those. Steve: Right. And both of those were villains, not heroes, if you recall. And what I wanted to do with this character was take somebody who was anything but psychotic, and give him that ray gun, which was the only fantastic element in the entire series. Everything else was absolutely real and plausible and could have happened, and basically give him the power to wipe out anybody he wanted, pretty much whenever he wanted, and then figure out what the consequences would be. One of the earlier callers was talking about violence in comics and on television. And that was also what I was trying to do with that book was to do a book where the all of the consequences of the violence were real. Caller Six: I have to say that was the good thing about it. One, to begin with, he finally wasn’t very good. He would get nauseous at night, which is what happens when you actually had to shoot someone. Plus, the general things, you know, it wasn’t the thing of him, you know, knocking people through glass and coming out of it [unscratched]. You know, what really happens. You get into a fight, you might win, but you both get knocked around pretty good. Steve: Right, exactly. And that really was what I was trying to do with that book. I’m really glad you enjoyed it. I’m glad to hear that, because, as I say, it may be the best thing I’ve ever done in comics, actually. And it was not read by nearly enough people to suit me. You know, I’m glad you’re one of the people who did read it. Caller Six: Thank you and I wish you continued success. Steve: Thank you very much. Ed: Thanks for a great call. Hello, you’re on the air. #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Howard the Duck, Omega the Unknown TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

show? Jack had designed a lot of the characters. So did Alex Toth work on that show. It was the second or third thing that I did in animation, actually. And the series was actually my idea. I brought it to Ruby-Spears and Joe Ruby, the head producer at studio, and I developed it. I worked on it for about two years — story-edited and co-created it. Caller Five: And it was supposed to be a comic book that was going to come out about it. Steve: We were toying with it, yeah. And I think, actually, Jack may even have drawn some pages for the book. Nothing ever happened with it, as I recall. Caller Five: I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s brought back because it’s really good… and it definitely does have a cult following. Steve: Is that right? Really?… It’s been many, many years since I’ve seen it or worked on it, obviously, but it came on… what…? ’79, ’80, something like that… Caller Five: It was a real success. It was a big hit. Steve: Well, for its first year, at any rate, yeah… Ken: Hello, you’re on the air. Caller Six: It’s a pleasure to hear Mr. Gerber on the air. [There are] a couple characters he did that I enjoyed, but sadly, he didn’t have a long run. One was Omega the Unknown and, two, Foolkiller. What was the inspiration behind these?

Sludge TM & © the estate of Steve Gerber and Aaron Lopresti. Foolkiller TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Caller Seven: Hi, guys. I’d like to know how much do people make in animation… How much do they make per episode? Steve: Oh, boy… It’s pretty pathetic. Although it’s not going to sound that way when I say, but the average half-hour in animation pays between about $4,500 and $6,000. Something like that… It’s far too little. Caller Seven: What about residuals? Steve: No residuals. Let me qualify that somewhat: some people who have very, very prodigious reputations in the field are able to individually negotiate residuals on a given show or a given project. Most of the writers in animation do not get residuals. Ed: How about creators? Steve: No. Most of the creators are… Well, first of all, most of the properties these days that are being done for animation come from other areas, you know. “Pre-sold properties,” as they call them. But, no. Most of the creators, unless they have created the property for another medium, do not receive residuals either. Caller Seven: So, uh, who among them get the most money? Is it the producer? The director? Who is it…? Steve: The studio and the people associated with it. Most producers in animation are also just hired hands. The real producer with a capital P is the studio itself that’s turning out the show. Caller Seven: How much do you make per book? Steve: Oh, in comics. There’s no longer a way to answer that, because most comics now pay an advance against royalties. And it depends on how many copies of the book you sell, how much you make. I mean, people have literally made six figures on a single comic book and more, you know, on a book that sells seven or eight million copies, like some of Marvel’s X-Men books have done on the average, I would say, a couple thousand dollars. Caller Seven: Well, how much did you make personally?… What was your highest score? Steve: But the highest amount of money I’ve ever made from a single comic book…? I can’t answer that. I really don’t know that… I’ll tell you this: I did the first comic book on which royalties were ever paid. That was the KISS comic book, and I know that, on that one — it’s burned into my mind, I’ll never forget it — I think I made about $7,000 on that book in 1978, or ’77, which was a considerable amount of money, at that time, for a comic book writer. But the largest amount of money I’ve ever made on a comic…? I honestly don’t know. Ed: Now, how does an animation script compare to a comic book script? Time-wise, format-wise. Steve: An animation script is basically in the format of a screenplay. It tends to be more detailed than a screenplay because you don’t have actors, you don’t have set directors, you don’t have graphics; you have graphic designers. Basically, there’s no production designer. So you have to describe everything. So, an animation script tends to be a lot more detailed than your average screenplay. But it’s basically in the form of a screenplay. A comic book script is very different because you’re separating everything into panels and describing the art and writing the dialogue separately. Ken: Didn’t you usually work Marvel style or did you work full script? Steve: I’ve done both. At Marvel, I did work almost entirely pencils or rather plot pencils, dialogue. Since then I’ve done some things full script and I actually like the full script method better in some cases. [Discussion about comic-book art.] COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

Ed: Steve, you haven’t told us that much about Sludge, your project from Malibu that you’re doing right now… Steve: Sludge is set in New York. It’s a story about a corrupt cop who comes to his senses a little bit too late and, as a result, gets turned into a creature who roams the New York sewer system… and basically dealing with the mob, hired killers, and street scenes in New York. Ed: So you’re back to doing “things”? Steve: Yeah. This one came out of nowhere, another one that I seem to get all these ideas when I’m not thinking about them. The Ultraverse characters, in general, tend to be these very bright, colorful kinds of characters, and I wanted to do something that was a contrast to that, naturally. So Sludge came to me on a moonlit night in Arizona, where there was nothing even resembling New York or sewers or sludge or anything remotely like that around. And I’m enjoying the book tremendously. I think it’s a good book. I think people would enjoy it. Ken: So what issue are you in the process of doing? Steve: Let’s see: there are three issues out. The fourth issue is imminent and I’m working on issue eight now. Ken: So this is this is going to have a good run, isn’t it? Steve: I hope so. I hope so. I’m proud of it. Yeah, It is a good book and it’s very much without copying Man-Thing or Omega, or any of those earlier books, because my writing has really changed a great deal since that time. But I think it very much does have the spirit of those books. Ken: How about that sort of gentle nudge of politics they used to have in Man-Thing? Is it in Sludge? Steve: Not yet, but it’s creeping in slowly, yeah. Ken: Is that by design or… Steve: It is, yes. I wanted to deal with the character as a character first and deal with the setting as a setting. Actually, in the very first issue of Sludge, there’s a character by the name of Chase Naylor, who’s an obnoxious right-wing radio host in New

Above: Rendered in a rather cheerful, almost animated style, Alien Alamo is set out west in 1957 and is about troubled WWII vet and widowed father Travis Houston and his young son, James, as they, with weathered old man Tobias, face an alien invasion. “The Houstons are vastly outnumbered,” says the promo material, “but they are Texans and they have each other… so the odds might just be even.”

Above: Gerber’s Sludge #4 [Jan. 1994] page, art by Aaron Lopresti and Gary Martin. Below: Foolkiller was Gerber’s critically successful 10-issue series [1990–91]. Art by Joe Brozowski and Dan Green.

really should hopefully develop those things themselves. Caller Two: Well, if I had those abilities, I would. Steve: You never know until you try. [Discussion of how to pitch concepts to comic book companies.] Ken: Just watch out in case any lawsuits occur. When it does. Steve: That’s another whole problem. It’s true. Since usually… I mean, for me in particular, because I have such a singular style about the stuff that I write, I find it very hard to work with other people’s ideas. Working in animation drove me absolutely crazy because you’re writing to other people’s specifications and something I’ve never been very good at. And it’s the same thing with people who come up to you and say, “I’ve got a great Howard the Duck idea,” or “I’ve got a great Sludge idea,” or a terrific graphic novel idea, which actually, I think, this was… there are real possibilities in the story that he was describing. You know, I hope he does something with it. Ed: I also I was wondering now, when you were writing for Marvel, everybody read them. The stuff for Ultraverse is not that well distributed. Not everybody gets a chance to read it. It’s got to be very different as far as just being there. Steve: Well, the Ultraverse stuff is being distributed pretty well, actually. I understand there’s been some resistance to it in New York on the part of some of the retailers for some reason… Retailers and distributors make decisions about what’s going to

Ken Gale on the ’Nuff Said Gerber Interview I produced and co-hosted a radio show called ‘Nuff Said! on WBAI-FM in NYC. I interviewed artists, writers, editors, historians, production people, and fans in the comic book and comic strip industries about the creative process. All eras, all styles, with a historical context because people don’t create in a vacuum; what is going on in the world affects how they create. That context might be why I had such a large non-fan following. ‘Nuff Said! started in 1993 and ended as a regularly-scheduled show in 2002, but continued as guest spots on other programs until 2007. Fans and non-fans alike learned things about comic books that they didn’t know, and some people got their prejudices against comic books eroded a little. (“I didn’t know comic book art could be gorgeous, but maybe it can be and I should stop discouraging my 17-year-old from drawing.” And: “I didn’t know there were any comic books that I’d want to read, but there are so many.”) The show was started by Ed Menje, who had invited me to share his overnight music program as a co-host and co-producer. Ed had inked for the New York tribe for Marvel in the ’70s and I recruited him at WBAI to ink for Evolution Comics, the company Mercy Van Vlack and I formed toward the end of the black&-white explosion. That said, the first episode of ‘Nuff Said! was actually on Jim Freund’s 44

science fiction program “Hour of the Wolf.” I met Jim at a party and, when he found out I was knowledgeable about comic books and also had a show on the same radio station, he said, “A lot of my listeners are into comic books and I’m not. Would you want to guest-host my show some time?” The longer, earlier of the two Steve Gerber interviews was the 12th episode, in the middle of the night, 3:30–6:00 a.m. I have many favorite comic book writers, but Steve was near the top of that list. As was the case of almost everyone I interviewed, the interview was as much fun as the comics he wrote. I’d like to think you got an idea of his personality as well as his creativity. I rarely limited my interviews to just one segment of someone’s career. That doesn’t seem fair to me. People have asked me where I got my guests, and there was a combination of sources: Parties, conventions, and mutual friends, to start with. I’m pretty sure I knew Steve Gerber through a mutual friend. I met him when he was living in New York City, but that was many years before ‘Nuff Said! I am proudest of the variety of guests we had. “All Eras and All Styles.” I’ve noticed many comic book podcasts and movies seem oriented to one person’s rather narrow taste. I never understood that. There is so much to the art form, why limit yourself? #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

B-&w photos courtesy of Shaun Clancy.

Above: Star Wars-era snapshot of actor Mark Hamill wearing his Howard the Duck T-shirt. Below: Various portraits of Steve Gerber. The black-&-white pix were purchased from the late David Anthony Kraft. The color photo is by Alan Light and was taken at the 1982 San Diego Comic-Con.

York. [laughter] And so it is there. The feel of the city is there. I’m trying to capture that again. New York is a very political place, so I’m trying to deal with that, as well. But it’s not playing a major part yet. It will eventually. [Various non-comics topics are discussed.] Caller Two: I hope you don’t consider it too selfish if I’ve called back, but I had an idea along Steve’s lines. [Describes politically-infused comic book story.] Steve: I think that’s great, but I think you should write it. Caller Two: Well, I need a co-writer. Steve: No, you don’t. You just need a typewriter or a computer. I like the idea. I’d like you to write it yourself. That’s what you have to do. Caller Two: I can only go so far. I can give you the storylines and characters,and things like that. Steve: Well, then all you have to do is arrange them in an order that makes sense as a story. And then you can write it. Caller Two: Yeah, I’m serious. Do you ever work with any other writers? Steve: Oh, from time to time. People who are close friends… [Asked if he can use other people’s ideas.] I can’t honestly say I’ve ever done that. And I don’t like to because… I mean, the idea belongs to someone else. You know, it’s not mine and I don’t like to take things from people that way. They

Gerber portrait © Ken Meyer, Jr. Howard the Duck TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Village Voice TM & © Street Media, LLC. Village Voice courtesy of Alex Jay.

succeed and what’s going to fail. Every so often, they’re wrong, and they have been with the Ultraverse stuff. It’s been doing pretty well. But yes, it’s much harder working for a smaller company and getting noticed, although, for that matter: we were talking earlier about Foolkiller. It’s difficult doing something for Marvel that isn’t X-Men or Spider-Man, and getting anybody to realize that it’s out there. I mean, the number of people who read Foolkiller was maybe — what? — a 20th of the number of people who read X-Men, if that. Ed: When you were writing for Marvel in the ’70s, it was actually quite simple to buy every Marvel and every DC comic. Steve: That’s very true. Then again, Marvel was publishing maybe 20 or 25 titles. Ed: That’s why you could do that. Steve: And DC, fewer than that. It was easy. Also, they cost a quarter instead of $2 apiece. Ed: I really feel disappointed that I just do not see Sludge. I go to an awful lot of conventions and they never bring it. Steve: Well, actually, there’s a reason for that. I’m going to brag a little. The reason is that they’re selling out in the stores. Most of their titles are. You have a hard time finding them at conventions. Ed: Yeah, well, my stuff sells out, too, and it’s not necessarily a good thing because that means it could have sold more. Steve: I agree with that. And then getting the retailers to order more the next time is almost impossible because they say, “Why should I? I sold out last time.” Ed: So I only sell ten. Steve: It’s a difficult problem. It is. Ed: Yeah. Well you only order ten. “That’s all I sell.” But you don’t know if you could sell 12 or 50. Well, that’s all they sell and they will give you this story. It’s maddening. Steve: I know, I know. And it’s a major frustration for all the publishers as well, you know? Ken: Okay, let’s try another call. You’re on the air. Caller Eight: How are you doing, guys? I have an idea for a comic book also: how about killing the last caller in a comic book? [Caller laments commercialization and merchandising in comics, specifically Todd McFarlane’s Spawn.] Steve: Yeah, but the products don’t influence the book, you know. The products are just something that the toy companies do and that he licenses out. As long as he doesn’t compromise the book, then I don’t think you have to worry about that kind of commercialization. Caller Eight: Your point is a little [debatable]. Anyway… Steve: Well, no, explain that to me. Tell me what you mean. Caller Eight: Why, when something becomes mainstream, it becomes “overground.” You understand? And the art, the everything, the elements of that book are compromised. It’s happened with Marvel across the board with all the comic books. Steve: Well, yeah, but there was also a conscious decision on the part of Marvel that the books would be inoffensive. Todd, I think, is simply doing what he wants to do, and I don’t think anything is going to change that. I mean, for heaven’s sake, if they’re doing these things now, based on what he’s done in Spawn so far, do you really think there’s any serious danger that somebody thought that about that the book is suddenly going to turn mellow? Ed: I guess, because it’s happened to so many comics in the past. Steve: It does happen. And the reason it’s happened is because those comics have generally been corporately controlled, not controlled by an individual. Todd, I know, is absolutely comCOMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

mitted to doing this one book by himself, writing it, and drawing it on a continuing basis. And I cannot see that happening to a book that’s done that way. Caller Eight: But Spawn is not being controlled by a corporation. It’s being controlled by one man and one man only. Steve: That’s what I’m saying. That’s why I can’t see the book becoming compromised that way. Caller Eight: Oh, well, X-Men is a perfect example. I mean, about three or four years ago. Steve: It’s not a perfect example because X-Men is controlled by a committee, essentially and by a bunch of stockholders. You know, Spawn is not. Caller Eight: The book you work for: is it controlled by a corporation or do you basically…? Steve: Sludge is owned by Malibu Comics. So far, I have not been asked to make any compromises and haven’t. We’ve done some pretty extreme stuff in that book and, so far, no one has complained. Could it happen? Yeah. If it happens to an extent that I can’t deal with it, I’ll leave the book. [Caller insults Sludge and show wraps up, with Steve saying he hopes to return to the show.]… Thank you. I enjoyed this a lot… Ken: I want to say it’s been another great show. I’ve enjoyed this… See you. “’Nuff Said!” EDITOR’S INQUIRY: Would readers be interested in CBC showcasing more transcripts of vintage Nuff Said radio talk shows? Tell us what you think!

Above: Though the “last angry duck in America” lost his presidential campaign, Howard the Duck was a cultural success by the close of 1976, when he was cover-featured on The Village Voice [Dec. 13, 1976], which included an in-depth article on the feathered creation of Gerber, who is interviewed therein. 45

Mary Skrenes There’s a photo of the writer in an Academy of Comic Book Arts newsletter from June 1973, and it sums up how I had envisioned Mary Skrenes over the years. It’s a candid shot of the ACBA Shazam Awards banquet with a standing Bernie Wrightson leaning to talk with seated Skrenes, and all one sees is her straight, long hair, her facial features hidden (just like Smilin’ Jack’s pal, Downwind, whose face was always concealed). A woman of mystery! Comic Book Creator: Where are you from? Mary Skrenes: Well, I grew up in Vegas, from the time I was one. CBC: And the kind of life that you had, was it suburban, pretty much? Mary: Yeah, I grew up in a little neighborhood with trees and single-story houses and kids playing football in the street. I lived two blocks from the school I went to, and the church we went to, and two blocks from “the Strip.” CBC: What was Vegas like in… I guess this would be the days of the Rat Pack, pretty much…? Mary: Yeah, it was around that time. [laughs] It was a small town. It was… Oh, gosh, I don’t even know how many people it had. [35,000 then and now 28,000,000 — M.S.] There was the Strip, and all of the entertainment, lavish shows with full orchestras and showgirls with tall feathered head dresses, and headliners like Frank and Dean and Sammy and… the Mob. They weren’t overt about it, but they had their reserved booths at shows and the many gourmet restaurants. It was just a nice, quiet town where people could raise their families. People were always surprised that families actually lived here. [laughs] And they thought that nobody had running water, outside of the Strip. It was a very conservative town. I think it probably had more churches than any other small

Well, of mystery comics, anyway, as she contributed to the Joe Orlando books at DC back in the day, usually under the pseudonym, “Virgil North.” But she was most prominent collaborating with Steve Gerber, when they jammed on Howard the Duck and, in 1976, they cocreated Omega the Unknown. This chat was conducted on Super Bowl Sunday 2005 and, after my insistent nagging, she finished the copy-edit and also added a few notes. — Ye Ed. town. The entertainers went to church, everybody went to church. CBC: Did you see celebrities with any regularity? Mary: Well, yes, I did. I saw Danny Thomas, sitting in his car, waiting outside church for Marlo. [laughs] My father opened the first 24-hour laundromat in Las Vegas, which had the first coin-operated dry-cleaning machines in it, and so I would see celebrities in the laundromat. [laughs] CBC: Oh, yeah? Like who? Mary: Oh, like Pat Boone. And my dad was in real estate, and he sold houses to the Dukes of Dixieland. I remember seeing the Mills Brothers, who were awesome. And Dad also managed a little shopping center that was on Sahara, a couple of miles from the Strip. Celebrities came there for groceries and the shoe store and the barber. I mean, people did their own errands back then. They didn’t have entourages. CBC: And where’d you get exposed to comics? Mary: Well, my dad was in favor of comics. He read the Sunday funnies to me every week, and he bought me comic books. He bought me Tarzan and Uncle Scrooge, my favorite, because I loved all the adventures that they went on. And Little Lulu, and Disney comics. I had the biggest stack of comic books in the neighborhood and, because

Conducted by Jon B. Cooke • Transcribed by Steven E. Tice 46

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

‘Dark Figure of Mystery’ (and Friend of Ol’ Gerber) of that, I found out that there were more than pictures, that there were actually words in these comics. I would pass them out the window to my friends when I was supposed to be taking my nap. [laughs] And I said, “I can read these faster than you.” And the kid from down the block, who was a couple years older than me, said “You’re not reading the words.” Then, all of a sudden, I saw the word balloons, I saw the words! I had to learn to read, but I had to wait. I had to go to kindergarten and then first grade before I could learn to read. It was really frustrating. CBC: Was it telling that it was a competitive thing that got you off? [laughs] Mary: No, it was just, I just hadn’t noticed the words before. I mean, my dad read them to me. All of a sudden, it just clicked. So, I had to know how to read those words. But, in those days, they didn’t have Sesame Street or preschool. Everybody knows how to read before they get to first grade, today. I had to wait, wait, and wait. [laughs] So comics were pretty important to me. CBC: And did you also watch television and get exposed to radio? Mary: Well, radio. When I was about four, I’d turn on the radio and I’d hope that The Shadow and The Lone Ranger, or something like that, would be on. I remember Fibber McGee and Molly because it opened up with, “Don’t open that closet!” Crash! [laughs] We didn’t have a television until I was seven, and then I wasn’t allowed to watch it on weeknights. I could watch it on Friday and Saturday nights only. In high school, I couldn’t even watch Star Trek. Pretty cruel and unusual…

CBC: Now, you told me you took a liking to science fiction. Did you go to movies in the ’50s and stuff? Mary: I remember going to the Huntridge Theater. It would be Flash Gordon or Buck Rogers or Superman. The neighbor kids and I would go every Saturday morning. There’d be a serial and a cartoon for 25¢ and it would last about two hours. It was close enough to walk. Nothing was too far from where we lived. When my parents took us, we only went to Disney movies. CBC: Why the restrictive upbringing, do you think, in retrospect? Mary: Because my parents were… They were really good people and worried about “bad” influences. I think they were really kind of afraid of the world, and they believed that everything was a threat. My father was in business for himself. He built and managed a shopping center for a client. He was a real estate broker and put a laundromat next door in the center. My first paying job, at age 12, was cleaning the office and laundromat. Later, in high school, I managed the laundry during the summer. I always liked creating little business things for myself. I sold advertising for the high school newspaper. Then, in college, I kind of took over the newspaper, UNLV’s Rebel Yell. I sold advertising and, over the first summer there, I switched This spread: Mary Skrenes (pronounced SKREE-nez) takes a toke of a cigar in this 1970s’ pic. Above is her, Steve Harper, and Bernie Wrightson at Shazam Awards banquet. Below: where it all started, the 1969 New York Comic Art Con luncheon, with Mary seated next to DC editor Dick Giordano (the guy with sideburns and back to camera), who accepted her first comics work, and smiling pal, Alan Weiss, and his girlfriend, Pami, to Mary’s right.

I just thought, [laughs] “This guy’s not going to have an easy sell!” CBC: So you grew up pretty much as a tomboy? Mary: Yeah, I like physical things. I was a physical kid. I’m 5' 5", but when I was in the sixth grade, I was, like, the second-tallest person in the class. And I was pretty strong, and I liked being in my dad’s shop when he was in there. I liked mechanical things, I liked knowing how things worked, and I really wasn’t… Back in the ’50s and ’60s, it was like, the whole dream was to get a new appliance or something, if you were female, and I was like, “Come on! I need a drill!” [laughs] CBC: Were you adventurous, too? Mary: Well, I was adventurous in that we lived… It was so open around here. It was all desert from the Sahara east to the Maryland Parkway. They didn’t build that up until much later. So I had a whole desert to go play in, and neighborhood kids, and we built forts and we played football. I’d walk on fences and climb trees and hide up in the branches and watch people when they went by. I had kind of a… my parents just seemed to feel that I should be working all the time. For some reason they felt that I should be doing something productive every minute, and all I really wanted to do was run around and do physical things or read. CBC: You said there was testing that took place in the area? Mary: Yeah, the “Test Site”. When was a little kid… I’m the same age as [Steve] Gerber, so I was born in ’47. When I was three and four, they would set off bombs out at the Test Site, nuclear tests, and they would rattle the house. They’d go off about five or six in the morning, and nobody really thought anything of it. That was just what was going on out there. Nobody knew that they had people exposed, standing up to see what would happen when they did above ground tests. We didn’t find that out until later. And then, of course, it all blew into Utah and Arizona, so we didn’t have a lot of local consequences. CBC: [Laughs] So the Mormons got it. Mary: Yeah, really. It’s not funny. [laughs] They did get… CBC: But Sin City didn’t get it. Mary: Yeah. [laughs] CBC: Was it called Sin City at the time? Mary: No. It wasn’t called Sin City. It was the Strip and it was Las Vegas and it was Vegas…. CBC: Was it an “up all night” kind of town? Did you have any indication of that? Mary: Well, it was always a 24-hour town, which makes it difficult to live anywhere else when you’ve grown up here. You can get anything here whenever you want it. Some grocery stores were open, and you could buy liquor, and you could probably get your hair done or a manicure. You could buy clothes, go to bars all night long, or get your car washed. I mean, anything was possible here 24 hours a day. And so, when I would go other places… I mean, when I moved to New York, and the bars closed at four o’clock, I couldn’t believe it! [laughs] CBC: “What’s up with that?” [laughs] Mary: “What was that? We’re just getting started, here!” #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Tarzan TM & © Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc. Uncle Scrooge TM & © Disney Enterprises, Inc.

This page: Clockwise from above are two of the Dell comics Skrenes read as a youngster, Edgar Rice Burroughs’ Tarzan and Walt Disney’s Uncle Scrooge; her senior portrait from the 1965 Bishop Gorman High School yearbook; the landmark Huntridge Theater of Las Vegas, where young Mary Skrenes and other neighborhood kids would pay 25¢ to attend Saturday morning matinees that would feature Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, and Superman movie serials and cartoons; and a vintage Las Vegas postcard from around 1960, the days of the fabled “Rat Pack” of the Vegas Strip, but depicting a “civilian” section of “Sin City,” away from the gambling casinos.

printers (which saved about 75%) and raised the advertising rates. My moxie pissed off the new editor, but the upper echelon loved it, made me the business manager, and gave me an office at the paper. Because of my dad, I was prepared for an ethical, hard-working business world. When I got out there, I was appalled at how businesses were actually run, especially comics. It was just absurd to me, the way they ran the business. They treated people like serfs and didn’t have any expectations of creative types talking back or negotiating. Joe Orlando was dumbfounded when I told him what hours I would come to DC to do the letters pages. I said that I would only take the job if it was understood: I kept the raise Carmine gave me if I stopped doing those pages. I think Gerry Conway was the only other person in comics who saw it professionally. He was, like, 18 or 19 when I met him. He negotiated his way everywhere. There was no other person who saw it that way. [laughs] He was always the one to do that! CBC: And hence the reason he’s in television now. [laughter] Mary: Right. He impressed me, because he was only a kid, and he had a business head. He got every book and he turned out amazing amounts of work. CBC: Did you know Michael Uslan? Mary: No. CBC: He just told me a story the other day of, when he was… He worked as what they called the “Woodchucks of DC,” which were basically the interns. [off-topic anecdote Mary doesn’t really respond to] Mary: I wasn’t aware of the whole fan world or who the people were, and who I should be impressed with, and who I should be afraid of, or any of that stuff. It was just, these are people, and I’m working for them… ”Don’t give me any crap! Give me my check!” [laughter] CBC: That was certainly an asset, right? Mary: Yes. I told you, I think being oblivious to the misogyny, being oblivious to the double-standard probably was a benefit at the time.

CBC: A convenient town, Vegas is, eh? Mary: Mm-hm. CBC: Did you increasingly become interested in comics at all? Would you go to the five-and-dime or the grocery store and…? Mary: Not once I discovered science fiction. In those days, you could actually buy comics at the drugstore, they had racks and racks of comic books. when I outgrew Tarzan and Uncle Scrooge, and I would go to the newsstand and buy science fiction pulps. Maybe [Fantastic?]… Whatever those… You know that digest size? CBC: Yeah. Mary: And I’d buy those the minute they came out. I liked when Creepy and Eerie started publishing, I would buy them, because they were horror. I liked horror and science fiction stories. CBC: And there was a particular author that you enjoyed? Mary: Well, I at first got into horror for Poe, of course. [Mary pauses to get the phone] That was Gerber and he wants me to ask you why he is not still on your comp list. CBC: Because I haven’t adequately put together a comp list, but I will send him the issues. [laughter] I guess I’ll have to e-mail him a mea culpa. Mary: So I got into horror through Poe. I remember in one of those… This was later, but one of the best stories… Sh*t, what’s his name? The irritating guy. CBC: What did he do? Mary: He’s a writer. CBC: The little guy? Mary: Yeah, the little guy. CBC: Harlan [Ellison]? Mary: Harlan! [laughter] CBC: “Irritating,” that’ll do it. [laughs] Mary: The irritating little guy. He wrote a story called “I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream,” and it was in one of those pulps, and I just thought it was amazing. CBC: Did you have aspirations to write, as a kid? Mary: No, I didn’t. I didn’t like writing. But I sort of figured that, for some reason, that I would end up as a writer because I had a really weird view of the world, and I couldn’t figure out anything else I could do with the way I saw the it. I really didn’t know how it would happen, nor did I seek it out. Opportunity just knocked. I had all kinds of opportunities knock, but writing comics was one where I went through the door, and it really taught me a lot. It was a fortunate event, because to write visual continuity to focus in on… the swirling stream of information and images in my head, and put it into a two-dimensional visual continuity, was just sort of a perfect thing for me. And it changed my life. [laughs] CBC: Your mother was a painter, right? Mary: Yeah, she painted in oils and watercolor. She had an odd sense of color and style. But she didn’t produce very much, and she was really insecure and shy. Not too many people ever saw her work. CBC: Do you still have any of it? Mary: Yes, I do. CBC: Cool. Did you draw at all? Mary: Just little cartoony things. My father taught me how to look at exploded views of mechanical things. If I was going to design something, he showed me how to draw it, so that it had perspective and looked three-dimensional. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

CBC: And how did you look at the future? Were you a sociable kid in adolescence, and into your teenage years? Mary: Well, I didn’t see a future for myself. I saw futures for everyone else. And I had the ability to… I interviewed everybody I ever met. I could push a button and get their entire life story. I was really interested in everyone’s life story, their stories of success and failure. I was always looking for a way out of… I didn’t realize this, but I was looking for a way out of taking care of my parents and my brothers. [laughs] But since I felt obligated to take care of them, I didn’t really look beyond that, because they put so much pressure on me to be the “dutiful daughter”. But then I finally got out. CBC: Was it a sheer act of rebellion or did you just split? Mary: No, what happened was, I just got so bored, so absolutely… I got bored to insanity with my life. It got to the point where… Well, Gerber will tell you I have a rather acute… It got to the point where I knew what everybody was going to say before they said it. I had pumped so many people, and propped up so many people, that I could practically hear what they were going to say before they said it, and there was nothing new to hear. So, I got extremely depressed, and was just going through the motions, and then because of that depression… I was going to quit school. My mom was all freaked out about it. My aunt had connections at St. Joseph’s College, in Albuquerque, which is a Catholic college overlooking the Rio Grande on the west side of town. All of a sudden, in the end of July, I get accepted to this college that I’d never applied to. [laughter] It was my way out of town, and I took it! CBC: Opportunity came a’knockin’! Mary: Yep! That

Above: In high school, Skrenes had top-billing in the senior class production of Stardust, the threeact comedy by Walter Kerr. That’s the future comic book writer in skirt and high heels in this photo from her 1965 Bishop Gorman High School yearbook. Below: Skrenes attended Nevada Southern University (a.k.a. the University of Nevada—Las Vegas), where she was advertising editor for the campus newspaper (and where Alan Weiss contributed his skills as an artist). She was also a member of “Tumbleweed Tech’s” SHAME Committee — ”Students Helping to Assist and Maintain Education” — an activist group advocating for school administrators to better support the academic community.

Alan Weiss and ‘Screens’: About a Friendship In the very wee hours of this past Labor Day, Alan Weiss regaled me with wonderful memories of his friendship with Mary Skrenes — affectionately called “Screens” by the artist — which stretched back to the mid-’60s, when he admired the way she carried herself hauling two crates of rotten tomatoes and eggs for an annual bonfire ritual at the University of Nevada—Las Vegas, when she was a freshman. After he said to her, “Anyone who can look this good carrying crates of rotten tomatoes and eggs is okay with me,” they commenced a lifelong friendship. Flash forward four years, in the Summer of 1969, Weiss, his girlfriend (Pami), and Skrenes travel to New York and crash at her best friend Heather Devitte’s pad and attend the July Fourth Comic Art Con, where they meet Dick Giordano, then an editor at DC Comics. That leads to the first professional sale for both of them, “It’s Better to Give,” a six-pager backing up House of Secrets #92 [July 1971]. Weiss said, “We wrote that in a night or two (because she had no idea how to write a comic book script), but we had a lot of fun, and I remember we wrote a couple of romance stories together. I remember we wrote one called ‘Diary of a Uni-ped,’ about a guy who lost his leg in Vietnam.” Weiss searched for the right anecdote to share which best described how he saw Skrenes, and recalled a time in the early 1970s. “We lived in West Greenwich Village for a while, where we used to party quite a bit, and there would be empty bottles and bottles of wine lined up on the edge of the apartment.” Above: Alan Lee Weiss, in his University of Nevada–Las Vegas 1968 portrait. Below: The great Dick Giordano, one of American comic books’ finest editors and one helluva artist in photos from around the time he first met Skrenes and gave the young woman her first comics scripting assignments. The two would team as writer and artist on a few jobs, including “The Smooth,” in Joe Kubert’s comics tabloid, Sojourn.

One night, the two went to Washington Square, at around 2:00 a.m., and stopped in an all-night deli to buy some bottles of beer and wine. As Skrenes and Weiss went into the store, sitting on the stoop were a pair of aggressive panhandlers. “There was a little bit of a threat in the air,” Weiss said. “I record in my head what we’re going to have to confront these guys on the way out, for sure… So I’m in there and my brain goes into this whole routine about the territorial imperative, caveman thoughts of defending the sanctity of womanhood, etc. And, though we’re very pleasantly giggly high, I start holding these two bottles by the neck, one in each hand, like clubs. I’m thinking, ‘I guess it’s up to me; there’s no other guy here,’ and I’m young, still pretty skinny, 22-year-old me… and we start to go out and the panhandlers come together, to block us. It was worse than I had imagined five minutes earlier, and I’m gripping these two bottles. But Mary steps in front of me, puts her hands straight out, and she plows through them, pushes them away, walks right through, and says, ‘C’mon, c’mon, we ain’t got time for this.’ And I thought, ‘That’s my gal Mary! I didn’t even have to had given it a thought and I should have known better.’ That’s indicative of her personality, of her energy. Just fearless! ‘C’mon, c’mon! Don’t play these stupid games; we have other things to do!’ And that’s the way things would always be with Mary, in one way or another!… She’s just so special… So, that’s a good general description of her personality and her energy.” — JBC.

was my experience. I found out that, it was difficult but they could get along without me. And also, where I had always been fairly conservative, for some reason, at this school, I seemed like the leader of the pack. I wore jeans and boots and I had long hair. And they all were kind of, like, little sorority girls in mini-skirts with paisley flowers on them, so I became sort of this dark figure of mystery. [laughs] I went hunting with some Vietnam veterans and did all these things that, to me, were just kind of like, “Yeah, I’ll go!” And they just couldn’t get it. They thought it was dangerous, and they didn’t trust me and they respected (feared) me. [laughter] CBC: Did you revel in that? Mary: Well, it kind of confused me. Now I kind of revel in it. Then I didn’t understand what was going on. At that time I just thought, “These people are stupid. Me, dangerous? Come on!” CBC: Did you have any desire to be different, or was it you just being you, just being an individual? Mary: Yeah. I wasn’t trying to be different, I was just me. I never really actually tried to stand out. I always tried to be invisible. It just couldn’t work there. [laughs] I was noticeable. And, as my friends told me later, I had always been around guys and they were just guys to me. I worked around them, played around them. And somebody like Steve Mitchell or Alan Weiss said, “You know, just face it. You’re not one of the guys. You can hang out and you’re funny and you can control a situation, but everybody knows you’re not a guy.” [laughter] “Is that why they’re all bent out of shape when I get involved that way?” Really, I mean, I’m a girl. I never wanted to be anything else but a girl.

CBC: Right. But you were comfortable around guys. Mary: Yeah! I just didn’t like girly things, that’s all. I wasn’t butch. I was just physically strong and confident . CBC: Do you remain that way today? Mary: Wellll… I would like to be stronger… [laughter] Now I’m older… CBC: We’d all like to be younger. Mary: First of all, I wouldn’t try and punch somebody out with my fist anymore. If they were attacking me, I wouldn’t need a conventional weapon. But I would take them out. [laughter] CBC: A two-by-four. Mary: [Laughs] Yeah! Well, actually, I think a length of rebar would be… [laughter] CBC: Whoa, Mary! [laughs] Mary: Well, I don’t have the grasp for a two-by-four, y’know? [laughs] I can’t hold it in my hands. CBC: You’re a practical assaulter, too! [laughs] Mary: Yeah. Well, just defensive. CBC: Right, I’m sorry. So was this the mid-’60s, when you went to the school? Mary: Yeah, it was like ’68, maybe, something like that. Because I ended up going to New York in ’69. So I went to school there for a year and then came back to Vegas. And I worked a summer program at the Y. I ran the girls program, and taught a gymnastics class at night there. I did that for the summer and it was great! I didn’t have to get up until 11:00 in the morning, and then I just went and played with kids, and was physical all day. After the summer, I went to Hawaii. A friend of mine owed me some money and lived there. So, I went over and stayed for a few months, because I didn’t have to pay rent. I had some adventures there. CBC: Did you like traveling? Going to new places? Mary: Well, I found that I like driving long distances more than I like just flying and showing up somewhere. Once I get there, I just want to read a book. But I really like long distance driving. It just opens my head up. It just gets you away from all #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

“It’s Better to Give” TM & © DC Comics. Photo courtesy of Catherine Jeffrey Jones.

the stress of wherever you are. And, the further you get away from it, the more it kind of loses its psychic hooks in you. It just starts fading away. And then, when you go back, it’s still the same. I mean, I could go back to New York City today, and it would be just the same as it was when I was left. There’s a big hole in the ground there [Referring to 9/11. — JBC], but it still would have the same… Probably a little bit more pollution. All the tension, all the stress, of living in the city and trying to make a living, and dealing with egos… I have to say, dealing with egos in the publishing world or in the intellectual property world is different than dealing with egos in a physical job world. When people are in a physical job, they have physical approaches to solving problems, and they have testosterone contests. They’re physical; you know it’s going to happen, you can hear it approaching, and it’s got all the signs, and they’re very obvious. In an intellectual world, it’s really dirty and insidious, because it’s psychological warfare. Like what they did to the guys who created Superman, or the people that Mort Weisinger gave nervous breakdowns. They just start chipping away at the person’s confidence and psyche, and suddenly their work, that was fine, they just… No, it has to be rewritten 25 times or redrawn 100 times. They just start chipping away. “Oh, your check, sorry, I forgot to put the voucher in.” It’s all a very dirty kind of psychological twisting that they do, because they don’t really know how to come right out and punch anybody, because they’re not doing a physical job. It took me a while to figure it out and I didn’t like it. I didn’t like seeing what they did to people. And it had all been done to them. All these old farts that were the editors, they had all had to be castrated in order to get their jobs, and then they wanted to do it to everybody who came in the door. They made them flip. They strung them out. They had to do this little power play. I’m not talking about every single person, because, as I told you, people like Dick Giordano… Although he, unfortunately for me, didn’t stay an editor for very long when I came into the business. Archie Goodwin was good. There are some good ones, but… CBC: I would argue that you mentioned two of the finest editors in the field… With Dick Giordano, there’s this way of, you want to please him, and with Archie, you just wanted to please him, and was just such a nice thing. Mary: Archie was perfect. He was way beyond his time. He was so sensitive and still got what he wanted, knew exactly what he wanted. He ticked me off on one of my scripts, but… He took out, one line, and now I can see why, but… [laughs] CBC: You didn’t take a rebar to him, didja? [laughs] Mary: No, no. I was a little upset because, by the time he got the story, it fell into his lap. And I had two artists that I could have had draw it. One of them was [Michael] Kaluta, who was a friend of mine, and it ended up going to somebody I’d… I never saw the story, I was so upset, because he had just… It wasn’t what it could have been. It could have been Alex Toth or Mike Kaluta, and it was some guy I’d never heard of. And I actually brought some of the Filipino artists, into the business, unknowingly. Joe Orlando saying, “Well, who do you think?” I say, “Wow, this guy’s good!” And then my friends are saying, “Why are you having him hire them? They’ll work for less, and we won’t get the work!” “I didn’t know that. The guy was good!” [laughs] CBC: When did you first meet Alan Weiss? Mary: Oh, Alan and I were freshmen at Nevada Southern University, now UNLV. We met the first day I was at school there. I wasn’t in the art department, but I met him and a whole little COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

gang of people. We sort of ran the school for that first year. We just sort of took it over and had a lot of fun. Just so much fun. I thought I would hate college, but… That’s where I met him. CBC: What was Alan like? Mary: Alan is one of the few guys in comics that actually has social skills. [laughs] Alan was outgoing, and funny, and loved women, and wasn’t shy and introverted. He was willing to go for just about anything. He has asthma, so there were a couple of things that he couldn’t go for, but he was brave. He enjoyed life so much that a lot of the people in New York never really understood him. Insular New Yorkers were kind of suspicious of the fact that he would initiate, “Let’s go to South Ferry at four in the morning and watch the boats!” You know what I mean? [laughs] I don’t know. He loved life, and he believed that the most romantic period in history was the eve of World War II, kissing your sweetheart goodbye, and going off to war, that that moment was so romantic. And he was always into Westerns. He really was one of the few guys who knew how to draw horses. He really liked the Western stuff, and he had a really eclectic art style. He really could do all

Above: Using her pseudonym, “Virgil North,” Mary Skrenes’ first comics job was drawn by Alan Weiss, appearing in House of Secrets #92. Below: For a neverfinished DC mystery story drawn by Jeff Jones, Weiss modeled as a character in the early ’70s tale.

Above: In a Polaroid taken by Lou Mougin, it’s Mary Skrenes and Steve Gerber at (maybe) the 1984 San Diego Comic-Con. Below: Skrenes was a key presence in the ’70s comic book social scene, writing for Joe Orlando’s mystery books, dating Bernie Wrightson, performing in Samuel R. Delany’s short film, “The Orchid,” becoming dear friends with Michael W. Kaluta, and — according to Alan Weiss (who became Wrightson and Kaluta’s roommate at her suggestion) — even posing for some Jeffrey Jones paperback cover paintings. (When we identify one featuring her likeness, we promise to run it in a future issue letters column!) Here’s the four Studio members, (from left) Jones, Barry Windsor-Smith, Kaluta, and Wrightson.

strange situation. He wasn’t super-gregarious, but he could be social. I’m trying to think of anyone else. My story of New York is really more about the people than it is about the work. I got a lot, learned a lot out of the work. It was rewarding to me. But it’s the people. [laughs] That’s going to be a little gold mine, if you want to hear about the people. CBC: That’s what we’re here for. [laughter] You know what? To be honest with you, the historical record of Mary Skrenes is not very complete, to say the least. I see in some indexes that purport to be pretty completist, but just very, very scatter shot. Mary: Somehow, in the ensuing years, people have researched and put up my credits in various places. When I first went to DC, I was really… I didn’t ever use my own name until later, at Marvel, when I started working for Deadly Hands of Kung Fu. At DC, I was “Virgil North” and, at Marvel, I was “Kevin Frost.” And, of course, those dreaded romance books had no credits. CBC: “Kevin Frost?” “North” and “Frost,” eh? [laughs] Were you frigid, Mary? [laughs] Mary: Well, actually, when I met Alan, I was a virgin, and since I have half-Norwegian ancestors, Alan called me “The Icy Virgin of the North.” [laughter] So I used “Virgil North” as my pseudonym. But Vaughn Bodé… We used to have these First Friday meetings over at Jeff Jones’ apartment, and Vaughn Bodé, on more than one occasion… He finally forced me to go out, and sit in a coffee shop, and tried for two hours to talk me into using my own name. And he said he understood, and he felt the same way, and I was sure he didn’t, but he did understand. And then, after he died, I was like, “Oh my God! I gotta start using my own name.” I was so devastated when I heard he died. [sighs] CBC: It was certainly a terrible moment. I remember the first Seuling con after that, and there was a real sense of loss. Mary: You were around back then? CBC: I was a little kid, yeah. Mary: One of those little obnoxious kids that… [laughs] CBC: Hey, I thought I was pretty respectful. Me and Andy, my little brother, my sister lived in the 20s, so we would actually walk up the 20 blocks to go to the Statler Hilton or Commodore. And I can’t tell you how nice Michael Kaluta was. He basically brought Andy under his wing, and we would sit there with him and Bernie [Wrightson] at their table… Mary: Oh, that was when they had the Studio. CBC: Just a little bit prior to that. And it was just very nice. Kaluta certainly has a way of… He’s got a very paternal instinct. Mary: Yeah, I lived with him and Bernie and Alan. We all had a shared… Well, actually, Kaluta and Wrightson had a place, and then I moved in because I couldn’t get an apartment in the building… Bernie and Mike Kaluta had this apartment on 79th Street, near the American Museum of Natural History, which was one of my favorite places in the world, especially in New York. And if you were a freelancer, an independent contractor of some sort, you could get an apartment in this building. Well, I didn’t have my tax return from the year before because I had just started writing comics, so I couldn’t get an apartment there. So I moved in with them, and then Alan Weiss moved in. Poor Mike. Pretty soon all these people were living there! [laughs] But it was really a whole world there. Jeff Jones was upstairs (or downstairs, I can’t remember). But they would have parties and people would bring over 16-millimeter films, with projectors, and play them. I found out about a whole entire world of trivia that I never even knew. Those people knew every single actor, and every single movie, and every single artist, and every single writer. It was just a wonderful crowd of people that #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Photos © the respective copyright holders.

kinds of things, from the cartoony to pretty realistic stuff. At least anatomically correct. I remember him showing me Gil Kane’s Green Lantern. “This is the guy! This is perspective!” [laughs] CBC: You remember this from college? Mary: Yeah. Well, you know, I liked the fact that he was into comics. I thought it was great that he wanted to be an artist, and had his own drawing board, and vellum, and knew how it went together. He was set up and ready. CBC: Yeah, he’s a wonderfully sensitive guy. Mary: Yeah, he’s a really great guy. I talked to him, like, once a year, and then I didn’t talk to him or see him for, like, five years, but I feel like he’s still one of my best friends. And his wife, Pauline, is just awesome. CBC: She’s a great woman. Mary: He’s really fortunate. CBC: I think it is really telling that… Certainly, Steve Gerber comes across to me as such, and so does Alan, of really liking women… Mary: Oh, yes. CBC: Of enjoying the company of, without being predatory necessarily, and just… Mary: No, just comfortable in their own skin, comfortable with women. Alan adores women, Steve enjoys them. [Jon laughs] I mean, they both enjoy women, but Alan adores women, in general. He’s a romantic. And Steve enjoys any kind of intellectual exchange of ideas. And he’s a really encouraging, almost mentoring, kind of person. He’s encouraged a lot of people. Let’s see. Jim Starlin was very comfortable around women, and men. I mean, he’d been to Vietnam, and he was a very competent, physical guy, but he was a great artist, and didn’t have any trouble relating to men or women, or walking into a

Heather and Feather © the respective copyright holder.

would show up to these parties. That was the party at Mike and Bernie’s. And then the ones at Jeff Jones, the First Friday, were all people who did comics. CBC: Now, would those start pretty much right after work got out, at five o’clock? Mary: No, they were more planned and happened on, like, Friday night. They weren’t all through the week, they were usually something that was planned, because somebody would have to schlep in a projector and a screen and bring the movies. CBC: So, it would be after dinner, basically? Mary: Yeah. Everybody would go out to eat somewhere and then go over to 79th Street and talk, drink whatever they would drink. There wasn’t any dope smoking in those places, actually. In fact, most times, when there was a party, you didn’t see anybody overtly smoking pot. And just wonderful, wonderful conversations. CBC: So was it Weezie and Jeff who hosted the parties? Mary: Bernie and Mike for the movies. Weezie and Jeff for First Fridays. CBC: And Archie would show up with frequency? Mary: Yeah, Archie would show up. CBC: He’d be with Anne? Mary: You know, I don’t remember seeing Anne. Every once in a while, Denny O’Neil would show up, usually solo. I’m trying to think who all was there. CBC: Roy Krenkel? Mary: Roy Krenkel, oh my God! I loved him. He was so great. CBC: Really? Even with his… ? Mary: Star tennis shoes. [Jon laughs] Converse high tops. And he looked like Christopher Lloyd from Back to the Future. CBC: That’s exactly what I was thinking, Professor Brown! [laughs] Mary: His hair was receding real far back, and he had this shock of white hair sticking out of the back of him. He was an amazing artist. CBC: I think I remember Weezie was telling me that he would make the most amazingly obnoxious, generalized statements about women and stuff that were just… Mary: I know! He couldn’t get along. I mean, he was totally not able to talk to women. [laughter] But it didn’t matter. We just let him do it. [laughs] If my friend Heather had been there, she probably would have engaged him in a debate, but she wasn’t usually at those things. CBC: So just to get the chronology, you and Alan had done the freshmen year? At the… Mary: No, we went… I met him my first year in college, and then I went a second year. We were still friends and everything, but I got kind of bored. I really wasn’t enjoying school anymore. The first year was great, the second year was… I mean, Alan was still my friend. And we had a group of people that we hung out with. But, the second year, it just kind of got to me. Then I went to Albuquerque. Alan stayed and graduated. I just started traveling, and nobody else wanted to go, so I just went. [laughs] CBC: What brought you to Albuquerque? Mary: Well, I had relatives there. I used to go there in the summertime when I was a kid, and, as I said, suddenly I was accepted to St. Joseph’s University the summer after my second year in college. So it was a chance to get out of town, so I went. I spent a year there in school, and finally I’d had enough of school, and went to Hawaii, and spent some time there. CBC: I’m just wondering, do you think that it was… Obviously, the college experience is finite. Did you have a fear that you would be pulled back home? Perhaps could that be a reason that you were traveling so much? COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

Mary: Yes, I knew that if I went back home they would suck me into their morass of pain and sorrow. I love my parents and my brothers, but I was psychically sensitive. When I went to New York, I was 2,000 miles away from that psychic cesspool and black hole, or whatever it was, and it really kind of thinned it out, so I had a chance to search for myself. CBC: Is there anything to Catholic guilt about that? Mary: No. It’s just the “dutiful daughter” syndrome. Like I said, I didn’t really understand what the whole feminist movement was about. I didn’t get it. My friend Heather Devitte explained it to me. Simply: “equal pay for equal work.” It took some other women, Michelle Brand and Shary Flenniken, to open my eyes to the female “creative” experience. By the time I met them, I was almost ready to leave New

Above: Skrenes and Heather Devitte posed for Ralph Reese in his “Heather and Feather” strips in Harpoon magazine. Below: Skrenes and good pal Kaluta.

This page: Caption to come.

“Well, I do.” I laughed. When we were leaving the bar, he said, “Seriously, if you have a plot, write it down, call me, and we’ll have lunch.” CBC: Now, specifically, was the conversation around… I think you wrote this (and pardon me if I’m wrong), that it was the depiction of women within the stories was just bogus? “I could write women better than this?” Mary: No, no. It was just, I was bored and I didn’t have anything to do. I didn’t know anybody in New York. Alan had gone back to Vegas, and my friend Heather was off in Europe. So I called Dick and made a date for lunch. I told him I was into horror and he did the [House of Secrets, The Witching Hour] mystery books. I quickly wrote a bunch of plots, in longhand. The EC Comics that my dad snatched away from me when I was a little kid had disappeared. The reason they disappeared was because of the Comics Code caused by The Seduction of the Innocent. Four of the plots probably involved some kind of ghouls or undead or something that were forbidden. Three of them were suitable for House of Mystery or House of Secrets. Then he told me, “You know, you can get a lot of work if you would do super-heroes.” And I said, “I hate super-heroes. These guys… First of all, I don’t get them. And, second of all, the women are all… They’re like they were created in the ’40s by men.” And he said, “Well, you’re pretty right about that. They were. Just write women any way you want.” There were no women writers that I knew of, I never saw any, and as far as I know, I was the only one until Margaret “Lark” Russell appeared. Women characters had to be written a certain way, a really impossible kind of 1950s, 1940s kind of Beaver Cleaver’s mom, and whoever she was when she was a teenager dating. [laughs]. Anyway, that was the thing about women, the concept of women being really outdated. And the reason the fanboys had really unrealistic ideas about what women were. CBC: Now, was there any discussion that girls were just really not buying comics very much anymore? Was there any desire that you could see on DC’s part that they wanted to attract a girl? Mary: They didn’t have any interest. They did not believe that there was a woman fan base, or that there would ever be a female fan base. I don’t remember who I was talking to, but I was standing there at DC in the hall, talking to two editors, saying, “Why don’t you try and appeal to women, to the female market?” And they told me, “There is no female market, there will never be a female market, because women don’t like comics.” And I said, “Well, I’m a woman! I’m a female!” And they said, “But you’re different.” And it was like I raised my finger and they were just scuttling off down the hall. I swear, just like that was it, and they were gone.” And I was like, “But… What do you mean by that?!” [laughs] I’m different as a female? I mean, had they been doing Red Sonja, or had they been doing Birds of Prey, geez, I would have been reading that stuff, and maybe wanting to write that stuff. But they weren’t. CBC: The biggest selling comics of all time, in the history of American comics, were romance comics. In 1950, I think it’s estimated that 45% of all comics readers were female, and it’s been downhill ever since. And these were in the days when romance comics were not all this weepy sh*t, but it was actually, a lot of the stories were very provocative and interesting in nature of having empowered women and stuff. Mary: Therefore, when Dorothy Woolfolk took over the romance books… she said she needed a free rein. She put hot pinks and contemporary colors on the covers, and she made them really provocative. She did everything she could to bring back that titillating kind of, “Gosh, I’d better read this because some trash is going on here!” #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

“All in the Family,” House of Mystery, Cain TM & © DC Comics. Caricature © the estate of Bernie Wrightson. Photo of Joe Orlando courtesy of J. Michael Catron. Used with permission.

Above: Though she was usually saddled with lesser artists who included Don Heck, Skrenes always wrote her DC mystery scripts to be illustrated by Bernie Wrightson. With House of Mystery #204 [July 1972], she lucked out with “All in the Family,” drawn by the brilliantly macabre artist! Below: For the Skrenes/Jones-organized artzine, Abyss, Wrightson produced this self-portrait. Bottom: Guseppe Antonio Orlando — better known as Joe — DC mystery comics editor. Photo by Mike Catron.

York, because I was so tired of it. Here were some women who were my age, professionals, and had a whole different POV than my male buddies. I had never found women interesting. They were really interesting. The things they told me about their lives and what they had to do to survive creatively opened my eyes. I began to see that I had been conditioned by society, and even all my guy friends to just sort of be prejudiced against the foibles of women. I didn’t realize how much I was trained, prepared to take care of everybody. It was just so nice to find out that I didn’t have to do it and I could develop my own creative self. My parents were raised with this… They were Catholic, but they had this Protestant work ethic, and they had all this duty, and obligation, and all this what parents are supposed to do and what children are supposed to do, and how everything was supposed to be, and they really didn’t know anything. I never blamed them, like other teenagers did, pulling away and becoming assholes and swearing at their parents. I never did that. When I left, I just went away. I never was disrespectful to them. I never stole from them… CBC: You were not rebellious. Mary: No, I wasn’t rebellious. I just fell into a deep depression, got out of it, got some air, and kept going. [laughs] So that’s how I got out. And that’s why I didn’t really want to go back there. CBC: Right. So, in the chronology of this, when did you go to New York with Alan? Mary: Well, after I was in Albuquerque, I did come back and stay with my parents that summer and taught at the Y. As soon as that job was over, I went to Hawaii and stayed there for a few months. And then I came back to Las Vegas. And then I decided to visit Heather in New York. Alan said to wait and go to the July Con, so I did. And that’s where I met Dick Giordano. CBC: So Alan, he was going to New York to shop… Mary: He had been to the New York convention the year before and had absolutely loved it. He had met Dick and a bunch of comics professionals there, and gotten a lot of good advice. Of course, he wanted to go again every year. So we went. I was impressed because Hal Foster was the guest of honor that year, and he did Prince Valiant, of course, which was one of the strips that my dad used to read me when I was a little kid. Alan introduced me to Dick. I knew that Dick was an inker and everybody liked him. Alan had spoken glowingly of how nice Dick had been to him the year before. We were having drinks and they were talking about all kinds of things. They were talking about artists, when out of the blue, I don’t know what made me say it, I cut in, “Who writes these stories? Who buys these stories?” And Dick leaned toward me, twirling his mustache suggestively, with a twinkle in his eye and said,

The Sinister House of Secret Love TM & © DC Comics. “Victoria the Woodhull” TM & © Mary Skrenes and the estate of Michele Wrightson. “For Love of Money” © Marvel Characters, Inc. Brand photo © the estate of Clay Geerdes. Used with permission. Courtesy of David Miller.

CBC: Sexuality. [laughs] Mary: And she did a good job with those books. She turned them around in a year. And I don’t know… CBC: Then Joe Simon got them, and they went right in the toilet. [laughs] Mary: Really. She did a lot of things with those books and really turned them around. But nobody could understand what she was doing, later. They didn’t get it. They didn’t see the fashion thing. They didn’t see what the colors were on the cover of Cosmo, or Seventeen, or however she… It was all psychedelic back then, when she took them over. She used psychedelic colors and she made the clothing contemporary. I think Dick Giordano designed eyelashes for women in romance comics that never changed. I mean, those huge… [laughter] CBC: He was doing those at Charlton. [laughs]

with sales and he reneged. CBC: Dick had the most exciting books, I thought, as a kid growing up. And then finding out the real story from him, while sitting at a kitchen table across from Dick in his home, about how he was treated… “Wow, man, that sucked!” Mary: I know. He really did have creative control issues with Carmine. I’ve heard “the powers that be,” but it was Carmine. Carmine didn’t like what Dick was doing with the new talent, he didn’t like the area that he was going into with the writing and the art. I don’t know, I think Carmine was a little bit… He didn’t screw much with Neal [Adams]. For some reason, Neal had an office and a drawing board at DC. It was like… And Neal had a beard, and I don’t know, he just kind of [chaffed] with Neal. And [Neal] was always late. [laughs] CBC: There’s a lot of passive/ aggressive sh*t that went on between him and Neal. And Neal was eventually… I don’t know, forced out or… He certainly made his own way with Continuity… Mary: Yeah, he and Dick started Continuity Associates and they had the Crusty Bunkers. So anyway, they had a good career over there, and they had a lot of advertising work because of Dick. And then Neal had the last laugh, because he and Jenette Kahn got together after Carmine was out. [laughs]… Neal was macho. He had his own agenda. It’s not that Neal was… I mean, Neal helped a lot of people, but he also liked to be in control and that was kind of irritating. The guy was talented, definitely talented. He put the balls on Superman and Batman. [laughs] CBC: That’s exactly what I was going to bring up, as far as emasculated men. Do you think, in a sense, that comic books, Mary: He created those at Charlton and that was it from then the industry itself was just too populated with mousy guys, guys on. [laughs] who wouldn’t… I mean, obviously, artists are sensitive. Writers CBC: And Johnny Romita started doing it, too. [laughs] are sensitive. Mary: Yeah. [laughs] Mary: Sure. And it seems CBC: So was it that perhaps Dorothy was bringing a real-world to me there were a lot of artpublishing mentality to the problem, of really trying to be ists… I’m trying to think who contemporary? else. Julie Schwartz wasn’t Mary: Yes. She was trying to make the books contemporary, emasculating, he was just and she knew there was a market. Knew that her books could kind of “Julie.” I didn’t ever sell, and they did. But what was your question about that? I meet Mort Weisinger, he was mean, that’s the reason that nobody could follow her, because gone. Joe Orlando was… Is he some guy couldn’t take over the romance books and keep them still alive? selling…? [laughs] CBC: No. CBC: Well, I think certainly there’s a perception… Not enough Mary: Okay. Joe Orlando people think about it, really, I think, but that Dorothy was really felt emasculated and bitter trying to do something there. She was hitting roadblocks all about it. [laughs] the time… [DC publisher] Carmine [Infantino] was just such CBC: That was a nasty an asshole to certain editors whom he was just crushing for the divorce. sake of crushing them, because he didn’t like them. Mary: Which one? [Jon Mary: Well, he was. He had a bet with Dorothy. She beat him laughs] If I had a story where COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

This page: Clockwise from below, Skrenes uses her “Kevin Frost” penname for her Journey into Mystery #5 [June 1973] story drawn by Win Mortimer; Skrenes provided the plot for the Sinister House of Secret Love #1 [Nov. ’71] lead story; Wimmen’s Comix #6 [Dec. ’75] tale by Skrenes and Michele Brand; and Brand in photo by Clay Geerdes.

Above: Writer and Skrenes collaborator Steve Skeates. Below: Panel from Red Circle Sorcery #6 [Apr. ’74] story drawn by Gray Morrow and written by Skeates and Skrenes. Her humor work at times appeared under Skeates’ credit.

lunch time hoping somebody would feed me. [laughter] CBC: Did you hang around in the fabled coffee… Mary: Oh, yeah, yeah. We had a live nude model once a week and we’d draw them. It was nice. CBC: Did you draw? Mary: Not really, but, you know… if there’s a live nude model there, I’m going to draw. [laughter] CBC: You can’t just stare, I guess! [laughs] Mary: Well, it was just a nice thing. One girl was pregnant. She kept coming and she got bigger and bigger. [Jon laughs] I mean, it was great, it was wonderful, to draw her. The lighting was terrible, of course, because it was fluorescent, but it didn’t matter. And it was fun… and Joe Orlando was a totally different guy, hanging, laughing, talking, and drawing in the lunchroom with the new guys. CBC: Was there a feeling that when you first went to DC that they were trying to catch up to Marvel, that they were trying to get hip, and to get contemporary, to some degree? Mary: Not to me. I was only interested in doing self-contained stories. I think I did a story for Julie. Which one is Julie on, Elastic Man or Plastic Man? CBC: Oh, Plastic Man. Mary: Plastic Man, I did stories with him, but they were all self-contained stories. So I really wasn’t interested in doing super-heroes, but he just threw something out at me… “Give me a quirky plot that’s just interesting,” or something like that. So, I said, “Okay.” And I came up with something. CBC: Did you just stick your head in the door and say, “I’d like to do something for you?” Mary: I don’t remember how that happened with Julie. I don’t know, I was just making some comment to him or something. He was kind of a Clarabelle-looking guy. I mean, he knew a lot. There were some shadowy great white figures around there, but Julie had his own office. As I recall, I was walking by him, standing by his doorway. He said something like, “Give me an opening that’ll interest me.” And then he went into his office and got behind his desk and sat down. So I went in and I was like, “Do you have a character in mind?” [laughs] CBC: “Give me a bone, here!” [laughs] Mary: So I gave him an opening line. See, I don’t remember these characters, I don’t remember half the stuff I wrote, but it was something like Plastic Man in his room with his wife. Somebody walks by the window, and she flips out. And he’s like, “Well, what’s the big deal?” And she goes, “We’re on the ninth floor.” And that was the thing that intrigued him. CBC: Oh, so it was actually Elongated Man that you did, and it was in the back-up in Detective Comics. I’m sorry, because it was just actually in the index. But you’ve also been credited as doing a Plastic Man story.* Do you remember that? Mary: Oh, yeah? How did they get my name? I didn’t know that they knew that I did anything. I mean, I’ve heard that one of my stories that Bernie was pissed that he didn’t get to draw, that Don Heck drew, was reprinted, and nobody sent me any reprint money. [laughs] CBC: Helloooo! Mary: I guess you have to be aware, yourself, because I’m sure my name wasn’t… I mean, I didn’t want my name… I was Virgil North! Oh, you mean my cover’s blown? They know that Virgil North was Mary Skrenes…? [laughs] CBC: Now, it is! [laughter] I do recall seeing the name. You * Plastic Man #13 [July 1976] credited Steve Skeates as writer, who included this note on the splash page: “Surfer Steve wishes to acknowledge that he was aided and abetted in the scripting of this minor masterpiece by one Jane Aruns and another, Mary Skrenes. Thanks, people!” #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

“Warrior’s Dream” © Archie Comic Publications, Inc. Crazy TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Harpoon TM & © Lopez Publications, Inc.

Above: Bill Stout self-portrait. Below: Hilarious underground comix cover by Bill Stout from Kitchen Sink Press [1980] that still makes Ye Ed laugh out loud.

a woman named Diane got really shredded, I could sell it to him once a year, and he wouldn’t realize how much he… [laughter] I think her name was Diane, something like that… Whatever her name was, and it was an accident the first time, I didn’t know that. But I just found out that about once a year I could come in with a story where a character by that name got really screwed, he would buy the story. [laughs] CBC: Did you have story conferences with any frequency, with Dick? Mary: With Dick? CBC: Yeah. Mary: Well, he was my editor for the first year I was there. CBC: So what was the process? Mary: At that time, I swear there was like, a year lead on any story, so I didn’t see my first story come out for a year. It gave me a lot of freedom, not knowing what I was doing, to just go for it. But what would happen would be that you’d go into Dick’s office and you’d bring in plots, and he’d look at them and decide which ones he liked, then you would go home and write them. And then you’d bring them back, and they paid once a week, I believe. So, if you brought them back and you turned them in, they had a really quick turnaround time. If you turned the voucher in the day before by noon of the day that they wrote the check, you could get your check. So you’d try and get them back within the next week, then you’d put in a voucher and come in the next day. Of course, we delivered everything because they didn’t have faxes, they didn’t have computers, and they didn’t have FedEx. And I was living in Manhattan and got a lot of exercise just walking there. CBC: Whereabouts in Manhattan? Mary: Well, I lived on the West Side, over there by the Museum of Natural History, so I walked across the Park. That was when DC was at 909 Third Avenue, I think. And later I lived in the Village, on Charles Street, so I took the subway up there. Then they moved somewhere near Rockefeller Center. By then, I lived in Hell’s Kitchen and would walk across town to whichever company I was working with. But Dick was… He left, I believe, when they were still at 909 Third Avenue. CBC: How do you remember Dick leaving? Did he just disappear? Mary: Well, he took me out to lunch, and he said, “I have to tell you that I just can’t take the, conflicts that I’ve been having.” He had told me that he was having problems with Carmine. And then, finally, he told me it just came to a head and he was going to be leaving, and Joe Orlando was going to be taking over his books. He shared an office, I think, with Murray Boltinoff or something like that at the time, but was never there when I came in. And then, I think, Joe ended up sharing an office with Murray, and he was never there when I came in to see Joe. CBC: Where was Murray? [laughs] Mary: I don’t know, maybe he was always at lunch. [laughs] I came at

Elongated Man, Plastic Man TM & © DC Comics. “The Smooth” TM & © Mary Skrenes and the estate of Dick Giordano.

know why? Because my mother’s maiden name is North, so I’m always, “I wonder if I’m related to him!” [laughter] But I do recall that I’m a big fan of the anthology books, just because they’re so cool, the romances and the House of Secrets, and stuff like that. Mary: Yeah. After Dick left, this was it. I had to go and get work. I was, like, [resigned sigh] “Oookay.” So I went into… [pauses] See, I’m the one who really got everybody their start in comics. You know that? It was me. [laughter] That’s what Bernie always has said. But I had to go, where the books were. Joe Orlando got the books that I liked to write for. So I went in there, and Murray wasn’t there. Was it Murray had some horror titles, some kind of…? CBC: Yeah, Unexpected. Mary: Unexpected. CBC: You’re credited on one of those. Mary: In retrospect, I realize how nervous Joe was that I was there. He was just, like… afraid… ? And I was like, “Hey, you’re taking over these books and I want to write for you. What kind of stories are you looking for?” And he did everything he could to get me out of there. I mean, it was like, “I have no openings, I don’t have horror stories.” Whatever he said, but I wouldn’t leave! Like I said, I had the nerve, this ability to get stuff out of people. I wanted to know what it was that he wanted, what he needed. And finally he got so nervous that he got up and he started pacing around the room. And then he pointed to the covers to the books that were on Murray’s wall. Joe had all his covers on his wall and Murray had all his covers on his wall. And he was so agitated, and he was like, “What I want to know is, look at this! I’ve got Neal Adams. I have the best cover artist! And look at what he’s got, and why are his books selling and my books aren’t selling?” And I said, “Do you want to know?” And he just like, skid marks, y’know. [laughter] CBC: From the pacing the floor, people, from the pacing, not in the pants. [laughs] Mary: It was just like he came to this… I mean, you could almost hear the rubber screech. “What do you mean?” I said, “Well, do you want to know why his books are selling and yours aren’t?” And he said, reluctantly, almost fearfully, “Yes!” [laughs] So I said, “Well, look at this Nick Cardy cover. You can see from across the room that this giant spider is dangling right in front of this big face, and it’s scary!” [laughs] And I said, “Now, look at this Neal Adams cover. Now, this is a brilliant cover, and it appeals to me because of the subtlety of it, but this little tiny puppet with this X-Acto knife isn’t scary! You have to be right up on it with a magnifying glass to see why it’s scary.” [laughter] “You should be using Bernie Wrightson or Mike Kaluta to do your covers, they’re great!” [laughter] So, he was like… So,

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

then, I don’t know, I got an assignment. “So, what kind of story do you want, really?” And so I did this story, which he, of course, had to change the ending a little bit. CBC: Put the thumbprint on it? Mary: Right, but he was correct. See, I didn’t understand that comics aren’t subtle. I thought the fact that the guy gets de-aged to the point of a pre-verbal baby and left in an abandoned house, I thought that was scary enough. But he had to have the rat in the corner. [laughter] Which I understand now. Okay, yeah, “I can put that on the cover.” CBC: Child endangerment always sells. Mary: It’s always good for a sale. Anyway, somehow… That was about the time that Dorothy came in. So he’s all jazzed because I’ve told him why his books aren’t selling, I gave him a story that he want-

This page: Skrenes worked with Dick Giordano on Detective Comics #449 [July ’75] and, in Joe Kubert’s Sojourn comics tabloid. Writers Skeates , Skrenes, and Jane Aruns tackled Plas with artist Ramona Fradon in Plastic Man #6 [July ’76].

Above: For a stretch in the early ’70s, Skrenes was the assistant editor for DC Comics’ romance editor, Dorothy Woolfolk.

Below: Skrenes, who was Bernie Wrightson’s girlfriend (or there’bouts) for a time, felt the trajectory of her career might have been totally different had Robert Sproul’s Web of Horror lasted beyond its Bruce Jones/Wrightsonedited three issues [Dec. ’69– Apr. ’70]. She called Wrightson — whose cover painting for #3 is below — “The perfect artist for me.”

this other guy that was there? There was another guy there that knew everything in the world, he was a really shy, quiet guy, kind of balding…. CBC: Oh, E. Nelson Bridwell. Mary: Nelson Bridwell! He was the most socially inept. He just knew everything. Anyway, Mark Hanerfeld, who Dick based one of the House of Mystery characters on, Cain or Abel, whichever one has the black beard. His apartment was like a comics bunker. He had a bedroom that, if there was a war, you’d be safe in there, because every inch of it was lined with stacks and shelves and bookcases of comic books. [laughter] Anyway, he decided that he had… I guess Joe had wanted him, but he didn’t want a job and then, suddenly, he wanted a job. So he just kind of got slipped into Joe’s assistant. I mean, he was much better at the assistant’s job than me. And they never just actually fired me. Mark just kind of took over that job, and I just kind of…. CBC: Moved back to freelance? Mary: Well, I was still freelancing, of course. I mean, you couldn’t live on writing two letters pages. CBC: I was wondering! [laughter] That was a question. Mary: No, no. [laughs] Anyway, so that’s when they started putting a bum’s rush… I mean, I did other things, which I don’t remember, but then I got the bum’s rush from Carmine, and Dorothy, and everybody. I mean, she already had an assistant, but I just couldn’t stand working for Joe at all anymore because of the way he treated people. That’s why I kind of faded out and Mark faded in. CBC: What, was it Joe’s temper? Mary: No, he didn’t have a temper. He was just a mean little eunuch, and just wanted to wield his little razor on everybody else’s balls. And really, he made people squirm for their checks, which sucks. And yet, you know, when he’d be in the coffee room in the art class, the guy was a totally different person. He was funny, he was friendly, he was human. But when he got behind his little editor’s desk… And I’m sure he wasn’t like that every second. I mean, I wasn’t there every second. CBC: It’s interesting, because I’m good friends with Bernie, and I went out to L.A. last January and, good God, we must have done 12 hours of an interview. And he certainly has a very high opinion of Carmine and a very, very high opinion of Joe. Mary: Joe started using Bernie for covers. He and I had also done mystery stories for Dick. I think that Carmine sort of thought that Bernie was his discovery. Bernie’s sample art was “Uncle Bill’s Barrel.” He always had that style, and he was influenced by Frazetta. He had that similar… but, I mean, he had his own…. CBC: There was that EC Comics look. Mary: Yeah! When I met him, I hadn’t seen any EC comics since I was a little kid. I had been fascinated by the EC comics in their rack at the market, and my dad just snatched me away. I guess the Code came out a couple of years later, and they disappeared. I’d always remembered them, and Bernie had a whole bunch of them! Kaluta was saying something when I zeroed in on that collection. I swear the room fell away and I was transported to them. CBC: Did you meet Bernie through Alan? Mary: Yeah, I met Bernie through Alan. I don’t remember exactly, I just remember we hooked up and we were walking down 79th Street towards his apartment. He was in the lead, and I don’t know where we hooked up with him, but Alan knew him. Then we went over there, and I met Mike. And then I saw the EC collection. I was drawn like a magnet. I couldn’t believe it, and he was, like, “Oh, you like these?” “Yes! I thought it was #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Web of Horror TM & © the respective copyright holder.

ed to buy. And he goes to Carmine and, by this time, Carmine thought I was a real writer because he’d seen that stupid romance story that I wrote just because he didn’t believe that I was a real writer. Dick said, “What can I do about this?” So I wrote this romance story for Dick in which the woman finds out that she really doesn’t have a vocation to be a nun, she really wants to be a wife and mother. And being Carmine, the Italian… CBC: Old school. Mary: Old school guy. Carmine read that story and he now thought I was a real writer. He thought it was the greatest thing. Thank God Dick never published it. He did buy it, though, that’s good. [laughs] CBC: “As good as Virgil North!” [laughs] Mary: Well, there were no credits in the romance books. But, anyway… So Joe, I guess, goes to Carmine just all jazzed about me and says I should be Dorothy’s assistant, because I’m “great.” This is what foists me off on Dorothy. So they bring me in, so we have this meeting, and he’s all proud of himself because he pimped me off on Carmine, and Carmine is all beaming, and it’s like, “You’re going to be Dorothy’s assistant.” I said, “I don’t want to be Dorothy’s assistant, I want to be Joe’s assistant!” So, poor Joe got stuck with me as his assistant. “And we’re going to give you a raise and, if you decide you don’t want to be Joe’s assistant anymore, we’ll go back to your other rate.” I said, “No! If I’m going to do this, I want my page rate just changed, I don’t want it to be contingent on whether I’m Joe’s assistant or not.” “Okay, well, your page rate is up.” So then, I was going to do all his letters pages. And that’s what being his assistant meant. “Okay, we’ll see you bright and early at nine in the morning!” I be like, [pauses] “I don’t get up at nine in the morning!” [laughter] “I’m going to work a half-day, I’ll come in in the middle!” So it’s like, poor Joe. [laughter] “What’s the difference to you? It’s a half-day, I’ll come in during the second half of the day, you know, where all my friends will show up, and we’ll go to dinner afterward.” So, poor Joe, he’s stuck with me. So I did the letters pages, and then eventually… Mark Hanerfeld, who was brilliant, knew every single comic. Who is

Heather and Feather © the respective copyright holder.

my imagination… they’re real!” [laughter] “Where did you get these?” [laughter] And so we just spent the rest of the night talking about it. Then it turned out that he and Bruce Jones were co-editing Web of Horror, and I had bought the copy of the first one that Bernie had done the cover painting. It was a knockoff of another famous painting, kind of a Goya-esque abominable snowman/yeti type guy. Had that book continued and I worked with Bernie, my whole career would have been different, because he was, of course, the perfect artist for me. [laughs] But it didn’t happen. CBC: Did you look at Warren at all? Mary: To work for? CBC: Yeah. Mary: Is Jim Warren still alive? [laughs] CBC: Yes, he is, but he’s very thick-skinned. [laughter] I did The Warren Companion, and I spent more time than anybody… I really, really like Jim, but I understand people’s beef about him. [laughs] Mary: Well, yeah. I mean, Jim had his…. CBC: Overcompensation. [laughs] Mary: Exactly. And we used to say, if it was he and Harlan and Jim Steranko, and there was a wrestling match. CBC: I’d root for Jim! [laughs] Mary: Me, too! I’d definitely root for Jim… Actually, Steranko would have won in a three-way. CBC: What, with a stiletto? [laughs] Mary: Steranko has the street smarts to do it. Steranko would have just ankled him and… [laughter] I mean, I bought Creepy and Eerie. And, of course, loved that cover of Vampirella that Frazetta designed. At that first convention, Warren saw my friend Heather, who was like a goddess babe. Jim took one look at her and said, “I’m having a party!” CBC: He was struck by her? Mary: Steve Mitchell couldn’t come because he was only 15. [laughs] CBC: And he was taller than Jim. [laughter] Mary: Anyway, so we went to a couple of parties at Jim’s house. And everybody was there, and it was really interesting. That’s where I met Denny O’Neil. I remember a guy named Chuck McNaughton. As we were walking in the door, he asked Denny, “If comics could ever attain respectability or place in literature, could they ever be considered literature?” And Denny was standing there with a drink in his hand (of course) and he took a moment, and then he said, “First, no offense, but is that a real question?” And Chuck said, “Oh, yes!” He was sincere. And Denny gave a 20-minute dissertation on why, no, it would never be considered literature. [laughter] CBC: But Denny was in the field! [laughter] Doing an interview with Denny, he says, “Well, I was drinking then.” [laughter] So his memory was always terrible, but there was such a level of self-loathing there for a period of time, for almost anything that he did. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

Mary: Well, I became pretty close to Denny. I really feel that Denny. Nothing was a challenge for him anymore, so he lived on the Lower East Side and totally handicapped himself with drink so every day could be an adventure in survival. And… Catholic guilt…? Of course. CBC: Right. The big old Catholic guilt. [laughter] Mary: I did a lot of fun things under Skeates’s name or with Skeates. A lot of violent, bloody… He asked me to please write the “Pantha” he’d plotted. I had a wonderful time writing her. [laughs] And we did “Hide from the Hacker” [Eerie #57, June 1974]. Just all kinds of bloody stuff there. CBC: Now, was Steve living in upstate New York at the time, or was he in the city? Mary: No, no, this was when he was still living in the city. He and I wrote a lot of stuff together, and a lot of it wasn’t credited. We wrote a lot stories under his name for Plop!, because I couldn’t stand to talk to Joe anymore. Of course, none of my stories ever won… He won the ACBA humor award every year that there was one. [laughs] CBC: Was ever one of those awards rightfully you should have shared them, so to speak? Mary: No. In fact, I accepted a couple of them for him because he wasn’t in town, going, “How come none of these awards are for the stories that I wrote under his name?” [laughter] He was brilliant, he really was. CBC: Now, when you went in to DC, had you known about, or heard of anything about, a writers strike that had taken place with

Top: From left, Jim Starlin, Tom Orzechowski, Heather Devitte, and Steve Englehart at ’74 Halloween party. Above: Devitte in her 1964 high school yearbook. Below: “Heather and Feather” panel, Harpoon #2 [Nov. ’74], with Devitte (foreground), Skrenes, and Steve Skeates (peeking at door) served as models for artist Ralph Reese.

This page: The “Pantha” serial of the mid-’70s Vampirella was often a collaboration between writers Steve Skeates and an uncredited Mary Skrenes. Above is Bob Larkin’s cover painting for the Warren Presents #8 [Oct. 1980] collection and, below, artist Rafael Auraleon’s splash, #30 [Jan. ’74].

ing and inking and coloring and lettering, even, within our own group. We wanted to give awards to ourselves. We had other things on the agenda, and we were talking at one time about having our own convention, to do a convention, like Phil’s. I don’t know why we wanted to do that. Gerry and a bunch of people were involved in creating ACBA. We would have meetings, but then it just kind of disintegrated because eventually there was work to be done, and only about five people were doing any of it, so it kind of disintegrated. But Ralph Bakshi came to one of our meetings and showed us he was developing the Fritz the Cat movie and showed us some clips. It was going to be fully animated, like the old Popeye cartoons, and it was really ambitious. I think we met at the Commodore. CBC: With the importation, so to speak, of the Filipino artists, was there any feeling from your American friends that these guys were coming in and… Mary: Well, like I said, I didn’t really realize what I was… Yes, there was, because they worked cheaper. And they were very good and very fast. And I remember Joe holding up some artwork and asking me, here’s this artist and here’s this artist, and I can’t remember whose art it was. Name some of those guys, the Filipino guys. CBC: There was [Alfredo] Alcala, there was Nestor Redondo, there was Alex Niño. Mary: It might have been — and probably was — Nestor Redondo. CBC: Exceptionally prolific. Mary: Very, very realistic muscles and just beautiful rendering. I was just blown away, and I was, “Get this guy!” I don’t even think I knew he was from the Philippines. I didn’t know what that would have meant anyway. CBC: Right, how could you tell if you never saw it before? [laughs] Mary: Bringing in, you know, people crossing the border to take our good-paying jobs. [laughter] So, yes, I do remember finding out that they paid those guys a lot less. CBC: Was there griping with the Americans? Mary: Well, yes. Because they got paid less and they worked faster. They made up for it by being very prolific, and it did cut out a lot of work for people who were trying to break in. CBC: Now, obviously you left DC. What brought you over to Marvel? Was it just, hey, this is the only other major competitor? Mary: Well, I didn’t really… I knew people who worked at Marvel, but I never related to those books, so I just kind of hung on at DC, because that’s where I came in, and that’s… CBC: You were doing anthology stuff. Mary: And then I just got sucked into working for Dorothy, and it was like being in a spider’s web of emotional need. It was like she couldn’t… nobody had changed a single word of any script that I had ever done. Dorothy wanted to change every word. She was lonely and she wanted me to come over to her house, and she’d send out for deli, and we’d sit there for hours and days and weeks and months. And she just… The excuse was to rewrite everything that didn’t need to be rewritten at all. She did these Gothic books because she got a hold of all those painted covers that were from bodice-ripper kind of novels… CBC: The paperbacks, the Harlequins. Mary: Not Harlequins, because they had cleavage. She had had the use of all of those, so she got the okay to do Gothic books. Which would have been a good deal, because then, instead of doing six-page stories or doing a ten-page story, I could do a lot of pages. And those were the ones that she just had to noodle to death. I remember that she gave me a cover, where a #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Warren Presents, Pantha TM & © the respective copyright holder.

the old guard writers? Mary: Huh-uh. CBC: No? That a whole bunch of them had been purged and that’s one of the reasons that DC was going for so many young writers was to basically fill up the ranks because they had gotten rid of these guys who wanted to unionize? Mary: No. I’ve never heard anything about that. CBC: It was led by Arnold Drake and… some other main writer [John Broome]… Mary: You know, there weren’t that many old writers. Bob Kanigher hung around there for years. But now that you mention it, I don’t remember seeing a lot of older writers. CBC: Also, there was a move to collectivize to some degree with ACBA. Mary: Well, I was involved with starting ACBA, and to tell you the truth, I can’t even remember who all was involved in it. We had meetings, we tried to… We did it so that we could have awards and recognition and maybe create some kind of other awareness. CBC: Prestige? Mary: Well, not necessarily. We did it so we could give awards to ourselves, because nobody else was. It’s sort of the Academy, that we would recognize ours in writing and pencil-

“A Nose to Remember,” Young Love TM & © DC Comics.

woman in a nightgown was running from a burning mansion and said, “Write a story around this.” So I came up with a plot, and it had all kinds of things going on in it. My favorites, like people that had been experiments and were all weird like a giant woman, and a worm guy… CBC: Freaks! [laughs] Mary: Freaks, yes. [laughs] Of course. And I wrote the whole book. She had to change one thing. I had a guy punch a woman in the face. The woman was ten feet tall, and he came up to her waist. Dorothy said, “No, we can’t have a guy punching a woman, even if she is a giant monster.” Maybe that was Carmine, maybe it wasn’t her. After going through all of that, the whole story led to the ending on the cover with the woman running from the burning mansion. I turned in the scripts and she says, “Oh, I used that cover on another book and we have to change the ending.” [laughter] So I changed the ending and I never worked for her again. [laughs] Because, really, like I told you, she wanted to fix me up with young men, the sons of her friends, and she wondered why didn’t I wear make-up or an accessory here and there… CBC: Did she have children, herself? Mary: I didn’t think so, but I was later told she had a daughter. CBC: It sure doesn’t sound like it. [laughs] Mary: She was a one-shot for a lot of people. She gave work to Kupperberg. She had Alan Weiss write and draw a story for her. My friend Patsy wrote a story for her. She had her own assistant, Ethan, who was a sweet guy, but held her hand or whatever. I couldn’t take going over to her apartment. Maybe I could have taken it if she was just talking to me or talking about new stories, but rewriting my stuff for no reason, just so she could have an excuse to have company… It was bad, so finally it was the last straw. So then, I went over to Marvel. (I might have gone to Morocco in the meantime.) Gerry Conway snuck one of my mystery stories into production when Roy went to the opening of the Hilton, in Vegas, to see Elvis. Somehow I ended up working there, and I got this great job of reviewing martial arts movies for Deadly Hands of Kung Fu, and writing articles about Japan, and stuff like that. And I got to go and see all these wonderful, wonderful old Japanese sword movies. I didn’t particularly care for the Chinese movies because (to me, at that time) they were so overworked and cluttered, but the Japanese movies were just lovely. The Chinese movies were dubbed, which ruined them, because hearing the language adds so much. The Japanese movies were subtitled. They’re beautiful, because the most inexpensive Japanese movie, has that design, that austerity, that ability to create the most beautiful scenes. And they were great, sword-fighting and all the actors. [Makes grumbling man’s Japanese voice sounds.] You know, just talking like this, just going to town with swords. It was such a huge release for me! I really enjoyed reviewing those movies. Then Gerber was the editor of Crazy for a while. He and Skeates and Lark Russell and I were all contributing editors. We’d come up with what the issue was going to be about, and then we’d write the whole issue. That was really fun. We must have done maybe five or six of those. CBC: Could you perceive a difference, what was the difference between, in the early issues, certainly, the difference between Crazy and MAD? Mary: Well, MAD was much more… I mean, it had been around for years, and it had all these set pieces. It had Sergio [Aragonés]…Sergio is a really great guy. [laughs] They had all Sergio’s characters running around the borders of MAD, COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

and all those set pieces that were very tight and cartoony. And Crazy was just kind of like a tossed salad of funny things that we wanted to do. I didn’t really see it as having a format. I don’t remember it as… It didn’t have a… Maybe it did, it had Obnoxio the Clown. CBC: That was eventually, but it started off as somewhat anarchic. Mary: Yes, it was. It was just kind of crazy. [laughs] We could do anything we wanted to do. And we would sort of have a theme for the issue and then come up with a bunch of crazy things to go with that. But that was one of the most fun things to do was that book. CBC: How did you meet Steve Gerber? Mary: I met him at Marvel. CBC: Did you guys hit it off? Mary: Well, yes, we hit it off. I hadn’t been there for a while, I don’t remember why. And I came in and I was instantly thronged by all the people that used to be at DC that now were working at Marvel, all my buds, and whoever, just a whole crowd of guys around me. Somebody asked “Why are you here so late? Are you a night person?” I said something like, “I really

Above: Writer Skeates allowed Skrenes to use his names for scripts submitted to editor Joe Orlando, when she was persona non grata at DC. From Plop! #9 [Feb. ’75]. Below: Skrenes wrote the cover story for Young Love #87 [Aug. ’71].

The Making (and Unmaking) of Mary’s Ms. Marvel Betcha didn’t know that Mary Skrenes was given the assignment to create a new character in the Marvel Universe called… Ms. Marvel! As Sean Howe reveals in Marvel Comics: The Untold Story [2012]: “Mary Skrenes was Steve Gerber’s muse — the inspiration for Howard the Duck’s go-go dancing girlfriend, Beverly Switzler — and writing partner. Her sensibility was every bit as skewed as his. “When Marvel asked her to take a crack at conceptualizing a super-heroine with the name of Ms. Marvel, she turned in a proposal about Loretta Petta, a petite, dyslexic waitress who’d moved from a trailer park to the big city. “‘When she would get pissed — in the first issue, somebody robbed her diner — she would get super-adrenaline strength,’ Skrenes recalled. ‘They didn’t want her to be tiny and dyslexic; they wanted her to be statuesque. Stan just didn’t like it.’ “A different version of Ms. Marvel would eventually see the light of day, written by Gerry Conway: Carol Danvers, a security agent at Cape Kennedy Space Center, was a bystander during a battle between Captain Marvel

have trouble falling asleep at night, and I really have trouble waking up in the morning.” And then from across the room I saw this big head, like a balloon on a string, just kind of bobbing over towards me, with alacrity. It was Steve. Because his face just seemed so big. [laughs] I don’t know why, it was like all the arrows in the room were pointing to him. He came over and he just took my hand and pulled me out of the group, and said, “You know, I have trouble sleeping, too. What do you think it is? I have horrible problems falling asleep and horrible problems with waking up.” And I said, “Well, what it is for me is, I don’t like to go to sleep, and I don’t like to wake up.” [laughter] Years later, we found out that he had sleep apnea. That was when we met and I think we had coffee that day. He was still married, and being the seer that I am, I knew that he was not going to stay married. I didn’t care. Somebody was married or not, they could be my friend. Wives and girlfriends didn’t generally like it though. Anyway, I didn’t really talk to him for months. I was in the

hospital, I had my kidney operated on. They retreaded it. Jim Starlin brought me some comics, and there was a story that he and Steve had done together that I just couldn’t believe… I don’t remember what it was. I was just so amazed that they had gotten away with whatever they got away with. After the hospital, I went to Morocco for a couple of months and spent some time in Paris at the museums. When I got back, I ran into Gerbs again and he was divorced. We started talking. I was there with Frank Brunner when they plotted the first issue of Howard the Duck. I came up with Beverly Switzer, chained to the wall in a skimpy outfit. Soon after that, he asked me to work on Omega. CBC: You came up with Beverly? Mary: Yes. I was pretty much the voice of Beverly. I contributed many fun things to Howard from the periphery, like the Kidney Lady and the Thief of Bag Mom. Back to Omega: Steve and I have a really wonderful collaboration. It’s so seamless sometimes that… I mean, I can tell you things that I came up with and things that he came up with, but a lot of times we would just come up with elements at exactly the same time, and that’s what happened with Omega. We were talking about the Omega opening, the crash with James Michael flying out of the car. And then we both said, at the same time, “And he looks over and sees his mother’s severed head and she’s a robot!” [laughter] So it’s truly enjoyable to collaborate with him because, many times, it is so seamless. Not that we don’t fight and argue, but really, he’s such a fun person to collaborate with. CBC: Now, you guys went out for a while? Was it a long while? Mary: Um… Well, you know, I never really dated anybody after I left high school. [laughter] It was just kind of like, you hang out, and eventually you find out, “Oh, wow,” you’ve got a thing going. So we had a thing going. I had been collaborating with Skeates. Gerber was attracted to me, but he didn’t know what my relationship was with Skeates, which was that we were really good friends, and we collaborated together. And Skeates was another person who was really fun to work with. So Gerber was like… [laughs] I remember him saying that he felt like he was breaking up George and Gracie, when he wanted me #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Marvel Girl, Ms. Marvel, Howard the Duck, Beverly Switzler TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Above: Panel detail from the Marvel Girl origin tale in X-Men #57 [June 1969], art by Werner Roth and Sam Grainger, as well as John Romita’s character design sketch for Ms. Marvel, circa 1976, and a clipping from The Buyer’s Guide for Comic Fandom. Below: Panels drawn by artists Frank Brunner and Steve Leialoha from Howard the Duck #1 [Jan. 1976], with words by Steve Gerber written under the inspiration of Mary Skrenes, who helped develop the Beverly Switzler character, seen here in the pair’s first encounter in the “Howard the Barbarian” story. Gerber had said Bev was “very loosely” based on Skrenes.

and his Kree enemy; when an exploding piece of Kree technology radiated her, she gained the strength of ten men and ‘the knowledge and instincts of a Kree warrior.’ She left her security job to edit Woman magazine for The Daily Bugle’s J. Jonah Jameson.” Murray Bishoff’s column, “Now What?,” in the December 19, 1975, edition of The Buyer’s Guide for Comic Fandom, contained a curious item that had Skrenes and her frequent creative partner toiling on a version that reworked an X-Men team member: “Ms. Marvel, in which Mary Skrenes and Steve Gerber place Marvel Girl in a new setting.”

Howard the Duck, Spider-Man, Beverly Switzler TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

to work with him on Omega. [laughs] “No, he doesn’t care. It’s not like that.” So we started working together and we became a couple. CBC: Did that go on for a long period of time? Mary: Well, in my mind, I thought it went on longer. He tells me it went on for about three years. I thought it went on for about five years. [laughter] But it was just… He was just a… [sighs] Steve is really intelligent and I could really talk to him about things that I couldn’t talk most people about, because it would freak them out. He would just consider what I had to say and not think that I’m a witch or something. Like, was I really reading people’s minds or do I have some really acute ability to read body language, or something. He was intelligent, really funny, and I could talk to him about my psychoses, and he could talk to me about his. And, I talked him into letting me run Howard the Duck for President, so we were good for each other. CBC: [Laughs] You ran Howard’s 1976 presidential campaign? Mary: I had a friend that worked for a button-making company. Bernie did the drawing. I think I printed 10,000, and pre-sold half of them a New York comic store, which covered the cost of printing the buttons. I sold them for $1.25, including shipping and handling. I had special little envelopes made and an insert. We rented an office next to Jim Salicrup and became “Mad Geniuses.” CBC: Was there… Alan Weiss, I don’t know if you read his interview, but I went over it before I’m talking to you, and he said that you were certainly a vivacious personality. You were in an almost exclusively a boy’s club kind of thing. Were guys…? Mary: Here’s what happened. The guys — the writers and artists around my age — some had girlfriends, some were married, and a lot of them weren’t. And they were… The ones like Weiss and Gerber and Starlin, weren’t uncomfortable around me. A lot of the other guys didn’t quite know what to make of me. And I was kind of oblivious to it, too, because I was used to being around guys, and I was just, “Hey, buddy, what’s up?” Punch him on the shoulder, you know, and I wasn’t into hugging at that time, but I’d come right into their personal space. In New York, personal space is a lot bigger than it is out West, for some reason. Maybe because, out here, we have more space. These guys weren’t used to it. They weren’t used to a female just walking up and being friendly to them, and touching them on the arm, or shaking hands with them, or patting them on the back, or just talking to them like, “How the hell are ya?” And they began to… A lot of guys either hated me on sight, were threatened by me, or got a crush on me, and then didn’t know how to take it. I didn’t realize this until a long time later. I went into their space and they didn’t flee and they liked it. They somehow thought that meant something, because it was different in New York. [laughs] People were different. CBC: In New York, if you establish eye contact with a woman for more than three seconds, you know you’re in for sex. [laughs] Not really, but you think. [laughs] Mary: These guys, most of them, I don’t think they ever had sex. CBC: [Laughs] Right! So they were even more excited! Mary: We were all really young. They were younger than me though. CBC: And these were liberated times. Mary: Anyway, I guess I broke some hearts without knowing it. I found out that people felt like I had betrayed them, one with the other, because I was deeply friendly with everybody. It threatened them, somehow. The last thing I ever wanted to do was crush anybody or hurt anybody. I certainly never led anybody on. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

Above: Of course, despite the endless repetition of talking heads in the soap opera-esque storylines, consummate professional Graham Nolan did his best to keep things interesting as artist on the Rex Morgan, M.D. strip, a gig he retained for 16 years. Here’s two examples.

Below: Graham provided cover art for some collections of his Phantom Sunday comic strip work. Here’s a detail from one of the man’s evocative paintings.

CBC: It was just you being you in a different environment, perhaps? Mary: They weren’t used to it. It took so much for them to develop their art, their craft, in a world that… In families, in high schools, in groups that thought they were weird and did nothing to help them or encourage them, or believe that they could ever make it. For them to develop what they developed, they had to close themselves off and not develop other things. And so socially they were kind of geeky. A lot of times couldn’t get work because they were so socially inept, it took a while, and people bitch-slapping them and telling them, “Just shut up! You’ll get the job. Once you open your mouth, you’ll blow it. Just let your writing talk for you, your art talk for you.” I saw this. I began to recognize that I had to be careful. I thought that I was just friends with some of these people and then they got hurt, and some of them never talked to me again. And it hurt me. It was shocking to me. So, I don’t know how much you can do with that, because everybody ended up getting married and divorced a few times. So they did get laid, at least once.

Above: Howard the Duck #1 [Jan. ’76] cover, art by Frank Brunner. Below: Cover detail from HTD #18 [Nov. ’77], art by Gene Colan & Klaus Janson.

[laughs] CBC: Have you always maintained this friendship with Steve Gerber? Mary: Oh, yeah. His oldest friend died recently, and he told me now I’m his oldest friend. I think the world of the guy, and we’re good friends, and I really enjoy his company. And I’m collaborating with him again, just for the hell of it, just because I enjoy it. CBC: Are you? Mary: Oh, yes. CBC: Oh great! What is it? Mary: It’s Hard Time, the book that he’s doing for DC. And I get to do violence and come up with gimmicks, come up with violent gimmicks. [laughter] It’s a release. CBC: The first time you really came into recognition for me as a kid was what I thought was just an absolutely delightful book. I really loved Omega the Unknown. I loved Howard the Duck, Below: Cover of Omega #1, with but there was something real about Omega the Unknown, art by Ed Hannigan and Joe Sin- oddly enough. What was it like working on that book? nott. Name originated by Stan Lee. Mary: I really enjoyed working on that book, because we Inset right: Steve Gerber’s text page in Omega the Unknown #1 [Mar. 1976], discussing his writing partner and then-paramour, Mary Skrenes. Below: Credits from the splash page of Omega #1.

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Omega the Unknown TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

moved James Michael from the laboratory he lived in, on an idyllic mountain somewhere, into Hell’s Kitchen. He had two women, totally different types, that he lived with and the school. I often call Ethan from Hard Times “James Michael,” just because they’re both little kids with dark hair. I loved that book. Jim Shooter screwed it up. It didn’t have anything to do with Archie Goodwin. We were supposed to have complete creative control on Omega. Then Jim Shooter came in. He pissed me off, and I pissed him off. From then on it was like… CBC: What pissed you off? Mary: We were supposed to have creative control over that title. We wanted to do a cover that had James Michael standing defensively over the unconscious form of Omega. Jim Shooter calls to say… I didn’t know him, had never talked to him, but, instantly I didn’t like his attitude. I mean, he looked like Bernie’s Frankenstein, I could have liked him. [laughter] But he was already sticking his nose in and he calls to say, “You can’t have that cover. We can’t have the super-hero be the one on the ground,” and na-na-na. I’m trying to tell him, “But we have creative control. Stan said we could do whatever we want with this book. And there’s a reason for this cover…” He was really infuriated. “No, you can’t do it!” I said, “Well, go ahead, then, just f*ck up the book!” And hung up on him. [laughs] So you can imagine how well that went over with him. I just told Steve about it a couple of months ago, he said he never knew this. He only knew that the book was taken away from us for a couple of issues, by Shooter. CBC: And they… f*cked up the book. [chuckles] Mary: I still run into people who want to know. That was the first book that I got involved with the fan mail. We would get letters from kids who couldn’t wait for James Michael to beat the sh*t out of those bullies at school because, every day, they had their lunch money stolen, or somebody would beat up on them, or trip them, or give them a wedgie. We had all these kids writing in, saying they were identifying with James Michael, and just couldn’t wait for the day when he fought back. And, of course, that wasn’t our plan. He was shocked the

Omega the Unknown TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Flenniken portrait © the estate of Clay Gerrdes. Used with permission. Courtesy of David Miller.

first time he got punched in the mouth. Our plan was for him to do something different. Kind of point out all this stuff was going on: at school, and with kids, and being exposed to Hell’s Kitchen, and the pleasures of an egg cream, and then the pain of getting punched in the mouth. It was really fun to write that book. CBC: Can you elaborate on precisely what you wanted him to do? Mary: [Pauses] No. [laughs] CBC: Okay. Fair enough, Ms. Intellectual Property Person. [laughter] Mary: [Vengeful voice] Jim Shooter will never know, he’ll never know! [Jon laughs] I’ll run into people and they’ll go… I mean, I became a stagehand and I thought I was anonymous. I went up to the dispatcher for the first time, and he says, “Well, who are you?” “I’m Mary Skrenes.” And the dispatcher and the guy standing next to him go, “You wrote Omega the Unknown!” “Oh my God, who told you?” “It was my favorite comic book, man!” [laughter] CBC: What happened at the end of the Marvel tenure? Mary: It was sort of after… It’s 30 years ago, come on. But, by the time I hung up on Jim Shooter, I think I was pretty burned out on New York. It just… [sighs] I may have the timing a little wrong. If only I had gone and interviewed the Saturday Night Live people when I was asked to do so, when they first had the show, maybe I would have gone there. [laughs] And would have ended up writing for Saturday Night Live. But I was like, I don’t even watch TV, and I hated the Lampoon, and why would I want to go interview some people that were… This was put on by the people who did the Lampoon. [laughs] Shary [Flenniken] was the only thing I liked about the Lampoon. Then we got a TV so we could watch this show, and it was wonderful, of course. [laughs] CBC: Who gave you the assignment to go interview those guys? Mary: What was his name…? He had a magazine. I don’t know if he was doing a magazine on the show. Michel… somebody, who was a French guy… CBC: Oh, Choquette? Mary: Michel Choquette. Whatever magazine he was doing. CBC: I thought he was working for the Lampoon? Mary: He started his own… Somehow he met them, and he was starting his own magazine. I don’t know what he was doing. No wonder he knew who they were. [laughs]… I think, well, what if I had gone and interviewed those guys? I mean, we bought a TV just so we could watch that show. We didn’t want to have a television, but we had to have one. [laughs] And it was wonderful! And we also liked Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman. God, that was just brilliant. They whipped that thing out every day, it was wonderful. CBC: I was a huge fan of that show, yeah. Mary: That and Saturday Night Live, and it was like, I guess I should have gone to interview those people, they’re funny. [laughs] CBC: So you were getting burned out in New York…? Mary: I burned out in New York, and I quit writing more than once, and I just wanted to leave. CBC: Was it being sick of editors? Mary: [Sighs] I just… I don’t know. CBC: Needed a change? Mary: Maybe the fumes from Ninth Avenue coming up into our Hell’s Kitchen apartment was getting to me. [laughs] I don’t know, I just got burned out on it. I just didn’t want to do it anymore. And I didn’t know what I wanted to do, but I didn’t want COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

to do that anymore. And I was going to leave, and that was kind of like, as usual, meant leaving everybody behind. Unless they wanted to come. Because that’s sort of the way it was. I wasn’t a leader, but sometimes people followed me. CBC: You didn’t intend to be a leader, perhaps…? Mary: No, I didn’t ever intend to be a leader, but I went to New York before Alan did, I left Vegas before… Of the people in Vegas, Heather left, and I left and went in new directions. We all hooked back up again, but… CBC: So you came back out West? Mary: I came back out West, and stayed in Vegas for a few months, and then moved to Albuquerque for a while. CBC: Were you being creative at all? Mary: No. I was taking a huge break from it. I was being a waitress. CBC: Oh, yeah? Mary: [Laughs] Yeah. CBC: Were you a good waitress? Mary: Oh, yeah. Of course! CBC: You could talk with the guys, right? Mary: I could talk with the guys, and I could even talk with those families… I mean, I worked in a restaurant bar, but I also was pretty good with people who had… You

Above: Omega #6 [Jan. ’77] splash page, with art by Jim Mooney and Mike Esposito. In the Omega #2 text page, Skrenes describes her and Gerber collaborate using the “Skeates Style,” an approach less “Marvel Method” and more traditional. Below: Shary Flenniken, “Trots and Bonnie” cartoonist in photograph taken by Clay Geerdes in the ’70s.

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Yosemite Sam TM & © Warner Bros. Entertainment, Inc.

of Steel at Marvel, which was excellent. After G.I. Joe, which has 9,000 male character and maybe three women, Jem had mostly an all-girl cast, and we got to suggest three little music videos per episode. It was really fun! Then I even got tired of that. I was so isolated. I really enjoyed collaborating, and I didn’t know another person in town that was into anything like comics or animation. I had nobody to talk to. The editors were calling every minute, interrupting my train of thought. And I just gave that up and went and joined the union. I became a stagehand. And guess what? I was the only person there who had ever used a computer, so I got all the teleprompter work. [laughs] CBC: Is that good? Mary: Well, yeah. I mean, I learned a lot of things there. It’s just a good place to be when you have a lot of different skills. I did a lot of politics for them, and organizing for them, and I became an electrician for them. But I made the most money being a teleprompter operator. CBC: Did you make a lot of money writing for cartoons? Mary: Well, they weren’t Writer’s Guild jobs, but I would say that it pays better than writing comics. [laughs] Well, I don’t know, though, because the people we worked for, Sunbow, were contracted by Hasbro, and they paid twice as much as Disney. I got a call, somebody wanted me to work on an Uncle Scrooge animation, and I was thrilled because that had been my favorite comic book as a little kid. And they wanted to pay half as much. I couldn’t do it. And join the union, which didn’t represent the writers, and you got no benefit, but you had to join! CBC: Didn’t represent the writers, okay. [laughs] Mary: No. You got no health benefits, no union representation, but you had to join, because it was Disney. CBC: You had to pay dues without representation. Mary: Yeah, exactly. And it was half as much money! So I had to say, “No.” CBC: And have you been in that since? Mary: I was a stagehand and I still belong to the union, IATSE Local 720. My now-husband and I started a company. He’s a gaffer and we started a little lighting company. It grew into the biggest film lighting and grip rental business in Nevada. JR Lighting, Inc. We’ve got a big warehouse, and an auxiliary warehouse, and lots of neat toys and big lights and generators and cranes and trucks and dollies and Keno Flows. After 9-11 I got a whole sideline of photographic strobe equipment. We rent it all. CBC: How many employees do you have? Mary: We have about ten people. JR teaches Film Lighting and Grip class for UNLV. We hire an intern every year. We give them hands-on training and we check them out. We’re trying to build a crew base here, because Vegas is eventually going to

Abyss © Bruce Jones & Mary Skrenes. Howard the Duck TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Above: Skrenes regrets not including her name as co-publisher (with Bruce Jones) of Abyss, inside the artzine, which was published in Nov. 1970, with art by Bernie Wrightson (who drew the cover art), Michael W. Kaluta, Jeffrey Jones, and Bruce Jones. Inset right: Ohio’s Washington Court House Record Herald [Jan. 8, 1976] mentions Skrenes as a writer of many Gold Key animated character comic books, such as Yosemite Sam (below).

know, that’s a hard job, being a waitress, because everybody has low blood sugar when they come in there, so they have a couple drinks before their food comes, and you just hope that they get that food in them. But then there’s people with screaming little kids with low blood sugar. [laughs] CBC: How long did you do that for? Mary: Oh, I did that for about a year. And then I became a banquet bartender, which was cool, because I could work a couple days a week, get 20 hours in and a bunch of tips. And then I became a bartender at a country-&-western bar with a great band, and that was fun. And then my dad started dying, and I went home and took care of him until he died. Then I came back to Albuquerque, and went back to Las Vegas. Then I decided to go back to college for a while, and I found that I really enjoyed it, whereas I’d always hated school before. And took a bunch of communications classes. I took a creative writing class and I wrote a story in there, and my teacher told me, “You know, you’re almost ready to be published.” [laughter] “Really? Cool!” [laughs] And then I really was enjoying it, and I didn’t want to get a job. I had always wanted to get a computer, but I didn’t know anything about them, and I needed a job. And then Steve called me up and asked me if I wanted to write G.I. Joe. CBC: The animated TV show? Mary: Yeah. He was in L.A., they hired him as a story editor. And the only contingency was that I had to buy a computer out of my advance and then modem my scripts to him. I was like, “Okay!” So my first computer was a K Pro 4. It didn’t even have a hard drive, but that’s what a bunch of people were using to write with. And it weighed 40 pounds, and it was supposed to be portable. [laughter] And you booted it up with one five-inch disk, and then you pulled that out, stuck the writing program in, and then you’d put a disk below to write the script. It had a 300-baud modem. [laughs] Steve gave me a 1200-baud modem, so I could actually send him stuff. Steve started a bulletin board server, and he was the first one to send scripts back and forth using modems. He had another bulletin board where writers would talk about things. A bunch of them had K Pros, and then they talked about getting a “hard drive.” It was like, “Oh my God, do you really have them? Your programs are already there when you turn the computer on?” [laughs] CBC: Flash Gordon, baby! [laughs] Mary: “Wow!” [laughter] CBC: So you worked on G.I. Joe for a while? Mary: Yes. I wrote some G.I. Joes and a Transformers. Then Roger Slifer got a hold of me, and he was story editing for Jem. I wrote a bunch of Jem and the Holograms. Christy Marx created Jem. She had done Sisterhood

Hard Time TM & © the estate of Steve Gerber and DC Comics. Gerber photo © and courtesy of Jackie Estrada. Used with permission.

be a production-originating center. Right now, most things are originated elsewhere. Like CSI. I mean, if we had a studio here, they’d be shooting it here. Now all they do is come and do exteriors. But we did a lot of CSI, when it was in the first year, when they’d come here. And all those people on the show would like to live here. We have some warehouse-pretend studios, but we don’t have real studios. CBC: Did you ever go to San Diego Comic-Con? Mary: I have gone to a couple of San Diego conventions, one about ten years ago. I went to the very first or maybe the second San Diego convention. I published — stupidly didn’t put my name in it — a book called Abyss that had Jeff Jones, Bernie Wrightson, Mike Kaluta, and Bruce Jones artwork. In order to get the money to publish it, we did a portfolio. Each guy did a large drawing, and we printed those up and sold them to get the money to publish. Bruce Jones and I were co-publishers of it. He said, “We always wanted to do this,” and I said, “Well, why don’t we do it?” “Okay.” So I put it all together, paid to print the portfolio and we did it. And now of course I have nothing. I think I might have one copy of the book. My mom threw away all my portfolios that I had left at the house. CBC: No! Of course, what is going through my mind right now is how I’m going to dig one of those up! Mary: Really. And the deal is that I was supposed to get the signed #1. I don’t remember how many we actually printed up. It was a portfolio of four drawings, one by each of them, and I was supposed to get #1. There’s somebody who’s probably in the business today, probably ended up publishing some fanzine. Whenever I see him, he’s like, “I’ve got your copy, because I bought #1!” [laughs] And then they were, “Oh my God, we were supposed to give that to Mary!” So I don’t even have any. CBC: We’ll get you one, Mary. We’ll get you one. [laughs] Mary: Kaluta designed the logo for our magazine, Abyss, and then he ended up selling it to the movie for their logo, for the movie poster. It was a nice… I didn’t put my name in it. There was no place, because the inside and outside covers, and I couldn’t see adding another page, so I didn’t even think that I should put that Bruce and I were co-publishers of it, or editors of it, or whatever. So, it was me! If you ever see it, it was me! Even before [Mike] Friedrich, it was me! [laughs] CBC: Had you written, before this recent rejoining with Steve, have you written much in the last…? Mary: Nothing but contracts. [laughter] Although I did write the union puppet show. CBC: Okay, what was the plot of that, Mary? Mary: It was a big! It was for the culinary union. My friend Moshe and I wrote it. I directed. The stagehands built all the puppets and the stage and acted it out and recorded it and did the whole deal. Culinary was picketing the Horseshoe Club, because the workers were booted out of there, or they didn’t get their benefits, or whatever. They’d been picketing for a while with no results. So we got them to close down Freemont Street for the puppet show. [laughs] The theme of it was: the rip-off of workers by shark employers. I did cost benefit analysis for all the hotels that were saying, “Oh, you’re going to do so much better because we’re going to pay you a dollar above union wage”. Basically, without the Union, the workers lose most of their benefits. They don’t get good health care, they don’t get anything. So we made all these worker puppet characters, and the villain character, representing the union busters was the Shark from Saturday Night Live. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

CBC: “Western Union.” [laughs] Mary: Yeah. Then he’d be saying things like, [funny voice] “We’re all family!” [laughter] Anyway, that was fun. CBC: Are you glad to be writing again? Mary: Oh, yeah! Like I say, it’s a creative outlet.

It’s fun. CBC: As you hope I know, I asked Steve a couple of times to ask you if you would mind doing an interview, and you declined at the time. How do you assess your time in comics? Is it a time that you’re proud of? Mary: It was a… Well, first of all, I’m… For some reason, I don’t know why, I’m just opening up to you because Steve likes you, and maybe because I was sick when I wrote the answers to all those questions, I just kind of poured them out. But I’ve always been a private person, and nobody knows anything about me. [laughs] So, when somebody says, “Do an interview?”

Above: Gerber and Skrenes’ final comics work was Hard Time Season Two [2006]. Cover art by Brian Hurtt. Inset left: Gerber in the 1980s. Photo by Jackie Estrada. Below: Skrenes (right) and Steve’s daughter, Samantha, were present when San Diego Comic-Con inducted him into the Comic Book Hall of Fame at the 2010 ceremony.

Mary: She retired from the airlines. She’s still my best friend, and she’s a math whiz, so she handles my bookkeeping. Although we’re both getting pretty sick of going to work every day, so we might try and arrange something else. [laughs] I try to take time off. I have to work with Steve, so I need some time off. And JR, my partner, encourages it. He wants me to have a creative outlet. [Heather and I both retired a couple of years ago. I still own the company, but no longer go in. — M.S.] CBC: Are you comfortable now? Do you have a good… You’ve obviously traveled and moved around a lot, and got tired and moved to other place. Do you feel a sense of contentment now? Mary: Las Vegas is where I grew up and there isn’t any place like it. I don’t see myself really living anywhere else. I do see myself getting an RV and doing some more traveling, because I do like driving distances, and I’d like to see some more things. I hate to fly, so… [laughs] I’m not real interested in flying somewhere, but I do like driving. When you fly there, suddenly you’re there. But when you drive, you decompress and you see the scenery. [We’re on our second RV now. — M.S.] CBC: I guess the other part of that question you didn’t answer is how do you assess your time in comics, how do you look back on it? Mary: It was invaluable… To learn to write comics I had to teach myself how to… I read books like I was watching television. I wasn’t allowed to watch TV, and I swear books flew by just like watching television, just like watching a movie. What teaching myself how to write comics did was make me slow down [and learn] how writing works. Writing visual continuity was really invaluable to me, personally. Not that I don’t wander all over the place now, when I’m talking to you, but everything was kind of like this hazy, emotional, empathic kind of world out there in my mind, when I think of a story. And in comics, you have to tell it in two dimensions, so that really started pulling out the linear structure of things for me. It’s also… I mean, if you’re going to write any kind of… It really was a good background for getting into writing animation. Writing animation is when things move, what you’re writing changes in #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All artwork © the estate of Alan Kupperberg.

It’s like, well, I’m not a fan. I don’t know anything that happened before or after me in comics. All I know is the people that were there at the time, and what its effect was on me. I don’t like having my picture taken, I have… hardly any pictures have ever been taken of me. I don’t have any pictures of back in the day. I wish I had a picture of Michele Brand and Shary Flenniken and I. We all had really long, dark hair. [laughs] That would be a nice memento to have, because I haven’t talked to them in 30 years, either. CBC: Well, I do know Shary, so I can ask her… Mary: I don’t know if she’ll remember me… CBC: Oh, she did! Your name came up in the middle of the interview that I did with her, and it was like, “Really? Mary Skrenes? Really?” [laughter] I never saw the connection. Mary: Ah, that’s cool. She and Michele were cool. What a difference it was. When I was a kid, girls and women were not interesting. My friend Heather was weird and interesting, that’s why she became my friend. But here they were. They had been elsewhere, around San Francisco, I think. Then they just appeared in my life. They were there the last year, and they were inspiring because they were women who were professionals and had no blinders on about the tendency of men to suck the oxygen out of a room. It was just so different from when I was a little girl and thought girls were stupid. CBC: Who was Heather? Mary: Heather Devitte. She was a friend from childhood, the only person who thought I was talented, and the weird person who became a flight attendant, traveled all over the world. She and Jim Starlin were together for a long time. She was a friend of Alan’s, too, and she was the one that I was going to visit in New York when Alan said, “Wait and we’ll go to the convention,” and she came to the convention with us. CBC: When was the convention? Mary: The convention was the Seuling con that we went to in July of 1969 CBC: And have you seen her since? Mary: Yeah. She actually works for me. CBC: Oh! [laughs]

the movement, there’s more than the descriptions you’re putting on the paper. That was a really fascinating process to do animation. For a while, until I got sick of that. [laughs] But, anyway, I think writing comics, it takes such discipline to tell the artist what to draw and how to move it along so that it goes from point A to point B, and then just put the words in there, also. I didn’t do very many captions back in those days, because I didn’t really… Dick told me I was the only writer that he had that didn’t write too much. I felt like it should be really spare, that the pictures should tell the story, and the dialogue should tell… Except for “the next day,” or something like that, I didn’t use too many captions. I wasn’t really wordy with my captions. Like Steve, I really enjoy it when Steve goes into his… One of the things I like for him to do, and I would like to find a way to do, sort of have done a little bit, in Hard Time, or in some other thing that I was collaborating with him on, is where you can have an amount of a text that you could use some contrivance to get that text in there. Tell a whole bunch of story, then you go back to the comic moving along, and it’s all two dimensions. If you can find a way to put it in, like he does, and if somebody on TV offers a newspaper ad, or somebody’s diary, or some letter somebody finds, that gives you more dimensions, more moments, and you get a whole bunch of information in there quickly, with a lot of dimensions, and then go back to just showing the story. It’s a difficult… Not difficult, exactly, but it’s a… CBC: Intellectual exercise…? Mary: Yeah, it’s a skill. And I worked for DC, so we did full scripts in the very beginning. And, when I told Steve about how we worked over there, he immediately wanted to work that way. [laughs] He immediately wanted to write full scripts. He just thought that was so cool. And I had problems when I went to Marvel… I also did, while it’s sort of spare, I did breakdowns for people. Somebody would give me five sentences, and I didn’t know any better, for Spider-Man or something, and I would write a whole book, and there were 32 pages or something, I’d break down every panel for him. [laughs] Because thought that’s how it was done. I didn’t know that that’s what the artist got, five sentences. [laughter] “Fight scene: six pages. Now they go over the rooftops and down into the trees.” CBC: “Storytelling? That’s your job!” Mary: When I did my first story for Marvel, a mystery that Gerry slipped into the queue while Roy Thomas was in Vegas for Elvis opening the Hilton. The artwork came back and I was supposed to place the balloons. Well, I never learned how to place the balloons. I asked Gerry. He began whipping through the artwork, placing the balloons, and he’s like, “Oh, this panel sucks,” and he just crossed it out. I about had a heart attack, because I thought the art was sacred. [laughter] He just crossed it out and sent a note back to the artist, “Redraw this.” “Oh my God!” I never did learn to place balloons. I was afraid to touch any of the artwork or know how big the balloon had to be for all those words. CBC: That’s my headline right there, “I never did learn how to place the balloons.” [laughter] Did you have any dealings with Jim Mooney at all? Mary: Huh-uh. CBC: No…? Mary: Well, talked to him on the phone. Really nice. CBC: He’s just a really nice guy, I really just hit it off with him. Mary: I never really met him. CBC: And he’s so appreciative of Man-Thing and Omega. I mean, this is a guy who had to work under Mort Weisinger with those stupid “Supergirl” stories and stuff. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

Mary: Oh, God… CBC: And he had such a good time working with Steve. Mary: Yeah, I would talk to him. I think we would call him and read the script or something to him, the plot or some… Because I remember talking to him on the phone a few times. He was just the sweetest man. I hope I didn’t meet him and forget [laughs], but I don’t remember seeing him. I don’t even know where he lives now. CBC: He lives in Florida now. This has been really cool, thank you. Do you have anything to share that could help illustrate the interview? Mary: Well, if you’re hearing what I’ve said and reading what I wrote, and your thrust of your questions was really, “What was it like to be the only woman in the boy’s club?” And, for the most part, I would say it was great. [laughs] Those guys were great. Most of them… They showed me… They were fans of so many different things, and not just comics, and they showed me a whole wonderful world of trivia and collectibles and everything from big, huge coffee table books of Maxfield Parrish to Vaughn Bodé’s wonderful little pieces, that I don’t know where I would have ever seen. So… CBC: It made your life richer? Mary: It certainly did. Most of the people that were around when I was there, that were in my age group, whatever period of time, whatever they called that group… “Bronze Age”? CBC: The cool guys, I thought. [laughs] The guys I’m obsessed with, anyway, the ’70s… Mary: It seems like they changed so many things. I was just amazed at what they got away with and the things they introduced into comics. It was a really restrictive environment. They tried to keep everything the same as it was forever, and never have anything new. And those artists and writers stuck new ideas in there. They reflected the times. I enjoyed being around them. I left but many stayed with the medium. Gerber’s Howard the Duck lawsuit with Marvel took the lid off a seething pool of resentment. It ultimately inspired others. They sawed at the chains of work-for-hire and some started competitive companies where they could tell their own stories. They get paid reprint money. Writers and artists now have agents. Many creators battled on. I felt closest to Steve Gerber and Don McGregor. They both had herculean struggles with editors and management. They both were telling controversial stories with very original characters. They were both subjected to the time honored “starve them out” tactics. I perceived a whirlwind sucking every story up into a dark funnel of sameness. I saw a few souls flailing against the upstream current trying to find some ground where they might create their worlds. Sneaking contemporary or original storylines into anything in those days seemed to be a gnawing compulsion. Personally, I had one book where I wanted to tell my story, Omega the Unknown. As Steve and Don became popular, they had every book being looked at with jealous and censorious eyes. I did not have the innate need or desire to write comic books. It was neat job and now my “coolest” friends come from “back in the day.”

Previous page: Back in the mid’00s, Skrenes pal Alan Kupperberg (who briefly introduced me to the writer at a New York Comic Con) sent me these satirical pieces relating to the time the two were working at DC Comics. Plus a pic of Skrenes from years since. This page: Above is a recent pic of Skrenes. Below is Mary with husband James Reid (whom she married in 2000) and their Las Vegas business, JR Lighting, which caters to the film and TV industries.

Inset right: Penciler Gene Colan and inker Alan Weiss art graces this Howard the Duck #24 [May 1978]. Background: Ghosted detail from Howard the Duck house ad. Below: Bombshell debut album of the Pretenders, released by Sire Records in December 1979.

Now like Howard the Duck and Mr. Stress both stayed, Trapped in a world that they never made, But not me, baby, I’m too precious, I had to f*ck off! (As Rolling Stone rock critic Bud Scoppa noted, the words, “I had to,” in the last line are inaudible: “Chrissie Hynde swallows the first three words before delivering the F-bomb with a fearlessness….”1 Her abbreviation turns that lyric into an angry, disdainful two-word demand, therein making “Precious” a bona fide rock ’n’ roll classic single of exhilarating defiance.) Now, with my first listen, I hadn’t deciphered all of the song’s lyrics yet, but I sure as heck immediately recognized the words: “Trapped in a world that they never made!” And, soon enough, it would dawn on me that Hynde was actually — yowza! —name-dropping writer Steve Gerber’s fowl extraterrestrial creation… as well as somebody named Mister… something… “Stressbough”…? Then, hearing of rock legend Hynde’s background as an Ohio native (courtesy of the B-side of their 1982 single “Back on the Chain Gang,” her song all about Buckeye State memories called, “My City Was Gone”), a common theme was emerging: to escape the Mistake by the Lake.

With all due respect to Ohio’s second-most populous and much maligned city, a burgh used as a punchline in a thousand stand-up comedy routines, Gerber was doubtlessly making an intentional joke when he choose the metropolis as the setting for Howard the Duck, a comic book starring a talking bird who fell to Earth from his home planet only to become trapped in the world he never made: i.e., the city of Cleveland. “We in Cleveland,” cartoonist and graphic novelist John Backderf wrote on his Derfblog site, “don’t view him as our own, because he wasn’t, really. Most Clevelanders would be surprised to learn his story was set here. Howard’s heyday was the ’70s, the low point in our fair city’s history. Everybody was laughing about our burning river, our mayor’s burning hair, the city’s default, Mayor Dennis Kucinich, and what a dump this sprawling Rustbelt town was. Every night, Johnny Carson was cutting on Cleveland. Howard the Duck was just more piling on. It was also painfully obvious Gerber had never set foot in the city. It was Cleveland in name only.”2 In an online posting, the creator confirmed Derf’s suspicion. “I’ve never actually been to Cleveland,” Gerber confessed. “Other than the Cuyahoga River, all the place names and street names and whatnot in the Howard the Duck stories were completely made up. I used to tell interviewers that Howard’s Cleveland was less a place than a state of mind.”3 It’s no surprise that a person who really did trudge Cleveland’s mean streets and yearned to get the hell out of that town was Christine Ellen Hynde. As revealed in her autobiography, #33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Howard the Duck TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Pretenders TM & © the respective copyright holder.

B ud Scoppa, “Pretenders,” review, Rolling Stone website [Nov 11, 2004], https://web.archive.org/ web/20080207135357/http:// www.rollingstone.com/reviews/ album/259325/review/6561334/ thepretenders. 2 John Backderf, “In Defense of Howard the Duck,” Derfblog website [Aug. 16, 2014], http:// derfcity.blogspot.com/2014/08/indefense-of-howard-duck.html. 3 Steve Gerber, “On Writing Howard the Duck,” blog posting, Steve Gerber: Conversations [2019, University of Mississippi Press], pg. 216. 4 Chrissie Hynde, Reckless: My Life as a Pretender [2015, Doubleday], pg. 162. 5 Ibid, pg. 165. 6 Ibid, pg. 169. 7 Ibid, pg. 170. 8 Steve Gerber, email to writer [Feb. 16, 2005]. 9 J eff Gelb, email to writer [Feb. 16, 2005]. 1

I can’t remember if I blurted out, “Wauugggh!,” but I probably came pretty close to sh*ttin’ a proverbial brick when first I heard it. Either way, to this day, I vividly remember exactly where I was when the three-minute, 36-second song came hurtling out of my buddy Stephan’s fancy quadraphonic sound system. I was in college. It was 1980. My then-girlfriend/now-wife and I were standing in his apartment on a sunny day, when my pal insisted we just had to give our attention to this incredible debut album from a brand-new British rock band, one with an American lead singer. So, as I casually scanned the album sleeve’s liner notes and chuckled over its instruction to “PLAY THIS ALBUM LOUD!,” Stephan dropped the needle on the group’s self-titled album. And that first cut just… blew… me… away. Listening to “Precious,” the opening song of their vinyl disk, I instantly became, at that very nanosecond and blink of an eye, a lifelong Pretenders fan and, of course, a huge admirer of lead vocalist/songwriter Chrissie Hynde. Emanating out of the pricey speakers like a banshee, the song was an angry, empowered, almost ecstatic anthem rife with sly seduction and unapologetic rage… and, as the cut hits its crescendo, of all things, in the song’s climatic verse, there’s a mention of a very hip Marvel Comics character and variant of his immortal catch phrase!

Jon B. Cooke on Chrissie Hynde, “Precious,” and a Duck Named Howard Reckless [2015, Doubleday], for Hynde, then an Ohio-born nobody getting caught up in some pretty hairy situations in that urban vicinity — chugging Mad Dog 20/20 rotgut, getting unwitting dosed with blue mescaline, hopping into an armed stranger’s car, etc. — Cleveland was an absolute sh*thole. Despite it being the place where disk jockey Alan Freed coined the term “rock and roll” and the town that, in Hynde’s words, “always led the way in rock,” she wrote in Reckless, “Cleveland was a city in decline. The steel industry was failing and the downtown was, like Akron’s, unloved and unlived in, but, unlike Akron’s, very heavy and very dangerous.”4 After unsavory, potentially life-threatening experiences, the wannabe rock star admitted, “Cleveland and I were not hitting it off,”5 and said the place was “all played out for me,”6 so she headed for the city limits. “Every mile away from Cleveland was a mile cherished,” she said, adding with a shrug, “I’m sorry to speak so ill of Cleveland, but c’mon — the place was a f*cking disaster zone. And, anyway, I’m from Akron.”7 As is painfully obvious, I became overly obsessed with “Precious” for three reasons after my pal Stephan got me hooked on it: it’s a phenomenal record, she’s a tremendous songwriter/ singer, and, of course, because it mentions a fave, ultra-kinchy comic book character! So, in early 2007, I decided to ask Steve

Gerber, as well as two friends of mine then in the rock music industry (and also big name comics fans), Jeff Gelb and Hugh Surratt, if they knew anything about the song. Gerber sent me a smartypants reply — “I’ve always wondered about that lyric myself,” he snarked about some imaginary coupling, “but even in the sizzling infrared afterglow, Chrissie would never tell me what it meant. She just whispered, ‘Use your imagination.’ (An assh*le can dream, can’t he?)”8 But Gelb was no-nonsense when he clued me into the identity of “Mr. Stressbough,” correcting my guess at a name: “Mr. Stress was a ’70s-era blues band from either Kent or Akron, Ohio.”9 (In his reply, Gelb also revealed that he had a connection with Hynde from their college days, but more on that in the sidebar below!)

Above: Mr. Stress album from 2016, featuring Bill Miller on the cover. Below: Cartoon by Chrissie Hynde, saved by Jeff Gelb since their college years together.

Chrissie Hynde: Cartoonist Cartoon by Chrissie Hynde. Courtesy of Jeff Gelb. Mr. Stress album cover © the respective copyright holder.

Jeff Gelb remembers hanging with the Rock ’n’ Roll Queen in their college days First, let’s set the stage. It’s Winter 1970 in Kent, Ohio, which means it’s very cold indeed – a real blizzard, in fact. I’m a junior at Kent State University, just a few months after the terrible murder of four students there in May. I knew three of them, and one spent the last night of her life in the spare bed in my dorm room with her boyfriend. But that’s a story for another time. So anyway, I’m wondering what the hell I’m still doing attending a school that allowed those murders to take place and commiserating with me is Chris Hynde, then an art student at the school, but feeling as restless as I. We are both hanging out in the “Pit,” a circular lounge that connects three dorms and which is used by all the hippies (ourselves included) as a hang-out. We’re bemoaning the fact that it’s as cold as the proverbial witch’s tit, and that there’s no good acid available, so we could escape the cold outside by taking a vacation inside our heads. And then Chris starts drawing. When she’s done, she smiles and hands it to me and I’m beaming. It’s a near-perfect R. Crumb style cartoon of Chris (skinny girl in the bikini), myself (skinny guy with hairy legs and long hair), and another friend of ours (zaftig girl), all trucking on some fantasy beach where there’s “enough sunshine for everyone!” For those of you not around in the late ‘60s, “sunshine” is a reference to a popular form of acid available on campuses back then. So, it’s a lovely play on words. Of course, I loved the drawing and kept it. I never thought of asking Chris to sign it at the time — she was just a Pit pal. Sure, she loved music, especially the cool stuff coming from across the ocean. But who knew she’d move there and go on to such tremendous success with the Pretenders some ten years later? She certainly never discussed that career ambition with me. Flash forward about 15 years and I’m backstage at a Pretenders show in L.A., meeting Chris for the first time in years. By that time, I’m about a decade into my own music industry career, writing for a trade publication called Radio COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

& Records (R&R). Chris and I say hi, shoot the breeze about old times, and I take out this old drawing and blow her mind. She wants a copy, which I give her. But you know, I still can’t ask her to sign the original — it would have just been way too fanboy a request considering how far back we went. So it’s unsigned, but it’s certainly drawn by her. You’ll just have to believe me. And, once in a while, when I want to remember those tough but vital times, I pull it out, put on a Pretenders album, and listen to Chrissie wail on those great tunes. She was and is a great talent — but who knew that, at one point, had she decided to go in another direction, she could have been a good sub for R. Crumb, drawing underground comix…? — J.G. 71

This page: Chrissie Hynde sports a Robert Crumb T-shirt when her band, The Pretenders, was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2005. The singer/songwriter is a huge fan of the cartoonist and his ZAP Comix.

B ill Miller, email to writer [Feb. 17, 2005]. 11 Jakedog, posting, Telecaster Discussion Page Reissue website [Oct. 22, 2022], https://www. tdpri.com/threads/anyonehave-any-inside-info-on-chrissie-hynde%E2%80%99s-bluetele.1040132/page-8. 12 Bill Miller, “The Great Pretender,” Cleveland Scene website [Dec. 6, 2006] https://www.clevescene. com/music/the-great-pretender-1497038. 13 Hynde, Reckless, pg. 161. 14 Chrissie Hynde, “The Great Pretender,” Cleveland Scene website [Dec. 6, 2006] https:// www.clevescene.com/music/ the-great-pretender-1497038. 15 Bill Miller, “A Lifetime of the Blues, profile, Cleveland Seniors website [undated], http://www. clevelandseniors.com/people/ mrstress.htm 16 Chrissie Hynde, “The story behind the song: Brass In Pocket by The Pretenders,” Louder Sound website [Aug. 31, 2021], https:// www.loudersound.com/features/ the-story-behind-the-song-brassin-pocket-by-the-pretenders. 17 Chrissie Hynde, “Guitar Girls Featured Interview: Chrissie Hynde,” Guitar Girls website [Oct.25, 2002], https://web.archive.org/ web/20050312033354/http:// www.guitargirls.com/ChrissieHyndeInterview.htm. 10

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With that lead from Gelb, I discovered a Mr. Stress Blues Band was actually still regularly performing in the Cleveland area, so I shot off an email to their website. Back came an eightword reply from “William”: “I am the one you are looking for.”10 And so I found out that “Mr. Stress” was an actual, living human being with an honest-to-God real name: Bill Miller. The dude included his contact info, so I picked up the phone and dialed. Now, I was to learn that, way back in the mid-’70s, Hynde already had a connection with the lead singer of Cleveland’s Mr. Stress Blues Band, when she made an early foray into a new career as she substituted as lead singer while the group’s frontman recuperated in the hospital from throat problems. Miller — regaled as “the reigning king of blues harp in Cleveland” — was quoted by a musician chum who had asked him if the Pretenders’ lead singer was indeed once in MSBB: “Oh yeah,” Miller was said to respond. “She was there. For a minute. [She] never could wrap her head around the idea that it was a blues band! Nutty broad kept trying to bring in all these goofy-ass songs that didn’t make any sense. Finally, one day, I just told her, ‘Look, nobody around here wants to hear this crap. If this is really what you wanna do, maybe try England. Those idiots will buy anything.’ So… she did. She actually went and did it. And now she’s her and I’m still me, which shows you how much I know about the music business.”11 (When being asked for on-the-record quotes, Miller was a bit kinder in his statement: “A friend brought her up to my band in 1975. She was very intelligent. She had a good command of the rhythm & blues material. But playing live music in Cleveland in a local bar, you have to make certain concessions as to what you play. And Chrissie and I would argue about it. And I said, ‘If you want to do what you want to do, you’re not going to be able to do it here.’”)12 Miller had formed the Mr. Stress Blues Band in 1966, inspired after seeing blues great Paul Butterfield in concert, which prompted Miller to himself play harmonica and start a musical group (“Mr. Stress” said to be jargon used in psychiatric hospitals). His long-lasting combo, with members ever coming and going, would remain Clevelandbased, though over its long history, MSBB opened for a multitude of famous acts from all over creation — among them, Cream, Bonnie Raitt, Joe Jackson, James Montgomery, Steppenwolf, the MC5, Nazz, Three Dog Night, and numerous others. In her memoir, Hynde relates that, after her stint with MSBB, she joined up with a new band in town as their lead vocalist, the short-lived Jack Rabbit, playing tambourine dressed in her “SCUM Manifesto T-shirt and fringed miniskirt.”13 In an interview, she summarized her time in Cleveland: “I was just goofing off. I

didn’t want to be a waitress forever. I was a big Anglophile that listened to all those rock bands from the ’60s, and I thought, ‘I want to go to England.’ And I fell in love with the place.”14 Escaping from “The Rock and Roll Capital of the World” — future home of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame — Chrissie Hynde found refuge in the United Kingdom and went on to form one of the greatest of all rock ’n’ roll bands on planet Earth. I did actually speak with Bill Miller some 16 years ago, calling his Cleveland abode, and, to be honest, I found the gent a tad prickly. Apparently asked about Hynde being a past band member was a constant query from strangers, one that had since become a decided nuisance. Yet, maybe because of my primary interest in the Howard the Duck mention, Miller seem amused enough to agree to a chat in the future. But not now, he said, as that night he was headed for a club to play a gig with the band. Subsequent attempts to set a time with Mr. Stress were, if memory serves, interrupted due to health issues. The Mr. Stress Blues Band did actively play local venues until 2010, the year after native-born Miller was inducted into the Cleveland Blues Hall of Fame. But his physical ailments were getting the better of him and, nearing the end — which came on May 19, 2015 — he started to go blind. But the maestro maintained intense affection for his hometown and, unlike any comic-book duck or queen of rock ’n’ roll, Miller never felt trapped in a world where he had any desire to escape. An online profile shared, “He stayed in Cleveland even though he may have gone further with his music if he had moved to Chicago, but he liked it here and he says, ‘I’m not a very bold person. I like to be where I know people.’”15 As much as I tried, I never did get through to talk with to Chrissie Hynde, though her people assured me they did try to get her attention regarding my request. Natch, in addition to the song and Mr. Stress, I’d like to ask her feelings about comics in general and specifically about Gerber’s feathered creation. Still, in my digging, I did discover she had great admiration for cartoonist R. Crumb and ZAP Comix, enough so to reference a Crumb phrase in her #1 U.K. hit single, “Brass in Pocket.” “I was a big fan of his comic books,” she said. “One cartoon of his had this pot gauge; a machine for measuring the quality of marijuana. If it was really, really good stuff they called it ‘reet petite’.”16 In another interview, Hynde explained, “Reet is in reference to ZAP Comix… an underground comic that was knocking about in the mid- and late ’60s. ZAP Comix was just as much a part of that sort of, let’s say West Coast, hippie, whatever that scene was in the ’60s, that takeover that happened in the ’60s. ZAP Comix was just as important as a sort of soundtrack to that generation as the music was. Go to a comic book store, which I know they have some in your town, and just find some back issues of ZAP Comix. “One of the great artists of that time was Robert Crumb and there’s a great documentary out on Robert Crumb and I would urge you to see that as well, because it’s a really interesting time in American history and certainly the last great underground scene. Another one of my favorite cartoonist was S. Clay Wilson but he’s not the one who’s responsible for the word reet in this case. There was one comic about pot smoking. It said, ‘It’s so neat and so discreet, skeet, it’s the stuff that can’t be beat, reet,’ and that’s where the reference for reet is.”17 In 2005, when the Pretenders were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, the singer/songwriter donned a R. Crumb T-shirt while the band belted out “Precious” during their performance on the Cleveland stage. In a way, it was (if ever there ever would be) coming full circle for the oncefugitive who had fled the Mistake by the Lake.

The Duck’s Other Dad

Val Mayerik on Comics and Co-Creating Howard the Duck Maybe it comes as no surprise that Val Stephan Mayerik, who grew up with a working-class upbringing in his native Youngstown, Ohio, raised by an insurance salesman dad and automotive factory worker mom, was drawn to comics in part because of a talking duck story. It was a Carl Barks’ saga published when he was about five years old that made an impact, “The Lemming with the Locket,” in Uncle Scrooge #9 [July 1955]. “What I think impressed me the most was the fact that the artist… drew every damn lemming! They just drew these thousands and thousands of lemmings… it could have been a full or half-page splash… [and] to see a huge panel that size, I remember that being impressive to me at the time.” Despite a fate that would likely lead to working the assembly line at the General Motors plant on the outskirts of town or toiling in the region’s steel mills, Mayerik, along with a motivated sister who would design theater sets and work as fashion designer, was driven to be creative. And he liked comics well enough: “ It was a cheap source of available entertainment. I think I might have had more of an affinity for them because I liked drawing and I always — I don’t think I ever actually foresaw myself doing comic books, but I always thought someday I would be drawing something, and I liked telling stories with pictures, so I think that that drew me a little closer.” Supported by a mother who signed him up for art classes, though his father hoped he’d end up getting a college engineering degree, the youngster, “I just drew all the time, and kept drawing all through high school.” And engineering? “I just had no affinity for that sort of thing.” But, along with drawing, the stage grabbed Mayerik’s interest, though with the Vietnam War then raging, the military draft was a concern. “Towards my junior and senior years of high school,” he shared, “I was considering going to England to try to study drama there. But I had no idea how that would affect my draft status, and it worried me. I wasn’t sure really what to do.” That indecisiveness would persist for Mayerik, who would be rejected for service because of a minor thyroid condition, and attending college for a four-year stint (but “nowhere near graduating”) before dropping out. But even after developing a passion for martial arts, Mayerik had little direction. “For the most part, I was living in a little town called Warren, Ohio,” he explained, “and I had a little, tiny apartment I was sharing with somebody over there. It was a really depressing little town. It still is. There is no culture there. There’s nothing going on. And I was visual, and I liked acting, so obviously I gravitated to two things: the movie theaters and the comic book stands. And then the sci-fi paperback racks, to see if there was a new Frazetta or a Jeff Jones painting that was on a book cover. So that stuff, I just absorbed it like a sponge, because there was nothing else.” By chance, something else did arrive in Mayerik’s life when, in painting class, a COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

woman overheard him talking with a classmate. “She said she lived in a little town called East Liverpool, Ohio, and there was a guy that lived there named Dan Adkins, who was an inker. And I said, ‘Oh my God.’ I couldn’t believe it. I kept thinking that you had to go to New York City to meet all these people, because the way Stan wrote the Bullpen, it made it sound like everybody’s in the same office in Madison Avenue!” Mayerik said, after meeting with Adkins and showing his work, “I just moved down there. It was about 50 miles away from Youngstown. I moved down there and just hung out with Dan for, like, six months. He just showed me little things I needed to know, like how to lay out a page so it makes more sense, how to ink with a cleaner style, how to pay more attention to” backgrounds and perspective. “And he’d kind of shake me up a little bit, and let me help him ink a few things. And then suddenly Roy Thomas sent me some scripts, and that was it.” The first job was a Brak the Barbarian tale [Chamber of Chills #1, Jan. 1973] He said, “It was my first story, I was very, very thrilled. [Adkins studio mate P.] Craig [Russell] got his first story at the same time, so we got to watch each other’s progress on the story.” Very soon, Mayerik found a regular assignment, penciling the Man-Thing series in Fear, starting with #13 [Apr. 1973], which, along with his other Marvel jobs, left him ambivalent because of the atrocious inking his penciled pages would receive. “I was very discouraged early on. My first couple of years in comics, I was able to ink the black-&-white Frankenstein stuff [in Monsters Unleashed] myself, I was getting some fairly decent inkers on the [Living] Mummy book, and then things just started going to hell. And Vince Colletta inked a whole lot of my stuff, and really, really bad inkers inked my stuff. I couldn’t seem to make any headway with [then Marvel editor-in-chief] Roy Thomas… So whenever I

by Jon B. Cooke

EDITOR’S NOTE: Much of this article includes quotes from a 2003 interview with Val Mayerik conducted by Ye Ed.. Above: This Mayerik commission piece inspired our cover. Inset left: Mayerik posing for fellow artists in the ’70s. Below: It was a 1955 Uncle Scrooge story that helped foster an interest in comic books for young Val Mayerik.

Above: In 2016, Val Mayerik acted an indie horror film called Quantum Terror, in which he plays a “detective trying to solve a supernatural crime.” He called his experience working with “some really talented people” to be “great fun.” Below: Two Howard the Duck newspaper comic strips drawn by Mayerik, dated Oct. 17 and 18, 1977, episodes recounting his origin. The artist recalled the assignment was a miserable one.

would ask for a better inker, it would just fall on deaf ears.” About Man-Thing, the artist shared, “That was frustrating as well, because at the same time, Wrightson was doing Swamp Thing, and he got to ink that himself. And the colorist at DC… DC was obviously putting a lot of attention on that book, and they were getting him great colorists, and he had a great writer. Gerber was writing Man-Thing, and Gerber’s a good writer. I like Steve personally, I like his writing. But it’s obvious Marvel just wasn’t… I didn’t think Marvel was exhibiting any real concern for the character, for the book. Like you said, the inking jobs, the way they butchered some of that stuff. I spent all this time trying to make it look real Frazetta-like, with all these great renderings of the Man-Thing and the textures and the reflection

in the water. And then, holy God in Heaven, they just butchered it. Besides the inking being horrible, they threw all these bright colors on it. They made the swamp look like a gymnasium. It was just terrible… They gave me a different inker every issue. The only guy that I was satisfied with, a guy named Chic Stone inked one job. And he wasn’t a great inker, but at least he was the closest to what I had drawn of any of these guys. Another one was Sal Trapani… “ About any collaboration with the writer, Mayerik explained, “Steve pretty much presented a script. I can recall times of Steve being more collaborative, like on Void Indigo [two issues, 1984–85]. But at this particular time, I wasn’t… I didn’t have any particular feelings where I wanted the character to go, I just liked the visuals of the characters and was perfectly willing to draw what Steve had written… I can’t remember all the stories we did now. I think I suggested to Steve we do something about him running into a bunch of people who lived in the middle of the swamp, who were isolated from the rest of civilization. I can recall making that suggestion, I don’t know that we ever did a story with characters like that, I’m not sure. Other than that, I just went along with what Steve [wanted]… I always thought Steve had entertaining ideas.” Among those Gerber notions was a certain talking waterfowl that came trotting out of the bushes. Mayerik said, “Well, I have to admit, I have no prescient or precognitive powers about pretty much anything in my life, and I certainly didn’t about comics. I had no idea that duck was going to become popular. Because, in his premiere, there were other weird characters from other weird dimensions that showed up at the same time. So, I thought, if anything, it would all happen as a group, these characters would emerge as a group. But they didn’t.”

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Asked if he had any affinity for the character, he replied, “Yeah, I do! Now that a lot of time has passed, the character, to me, is very interesting. You can do anything with a character like that. There’s two elements. There’s a couple of things operating with a character like Howard. There’s the fact that if you’re talking about he’s a talking animal character that looks somewhat more like a cartoon character. He’s not a naturalistic-looking duck, he’s not like a farmyard duck. He’s an anthropomorphized, duck-like creature that would obviously freak people out in a world that’s supposed to be this world. There’s that element, which I really found the least interesting of it, because I thought what was interesting about this, it’s just like Bugs Bunny. In the Disney world of talking animals, all the characters were talking animals. Goofy is a dog and Donald is a duck and Mickey is a mouse. In the Warner cartoons, which I thought were really much funnier, there was Bugs. And Bugs would annoy and just try to piss around with people. And what was funny about that, what made that able to get away with that, and with Chuck Jones’ genius, is it was a rabbit. If you assigned a human body to that character, then you’d have to think about what he’d look like. Would he look like a wise guy, short fat, one of the Bowery Boys? But when you personify an animal, you have suddenly given yourself license to do so many different things that you couldn’t do if you limited it to being a human being. And that’s what I think was great about the Duck. He could be that Greek chorus, he could be that little irritating guy that you just, what the hell, who is he, where’s he from, what’s he talking about? That, to me, is what made the character interesting, and that’s the real success of it, I think.” In an interview with Jim Salicrup for Comics Interview #15 [Sept. 1984], Mayerik discussed his association with the character. “Well, I was the first one to draw Howard the Duck. And I’m not blowing my horn about that. Everybody keeps reminding me of it. Everytime they see me at a convention, people say, ‘You were the first guy to draw Howard the Duck!’ I drew Howard in “Man-Thing” and then Howard became very popular, with his own book and another artist, as if I’d never existed and never drawn him. I never understood why and, at the time, I didn’t care that much because it was a low period in my career and I was concentrating on other parts of my life, so I said to myself, ‘Okay, they didn’t give me the duck book — big deal.’” Speaking of that period, Mayerik told this writer, “It wasn’t just bad luck and just getting bad inkers and being stuck in an untenable situation. A lot of it, too, had to do with me, in the fact that I would go through periods, too, where I would… Just before I went to New York City, I was really gung-ho into the martial arts at that time, and I would spend whole weeks traveling around the country, going to these different seminars and meeting this guy and that guy, ‘Master So-and-So,’ and this guy with a black belt, and this and that, and going to tournaments. Just not being able to spend the time focused on comics COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

and my art that was required. And that was a choice I made. I made that choice, and I don’t regret that, because that was a very exciting part of my life.” The artist told Salicrup, “As time went by, I began feeling a little left out, wishing I had a chance to do more with Howard, and I did have a chance to do more Howard stories later on. I like the character, and there’s a chance Steve and I will be doing a Howard book again in the future.” After Salicrup mentioned he had been Marvel’s coordinator of the Howard the Duck newspaper strip when Mayerik was drawing it,” the artist admitted, “I only worked on it about six weeks… It was absolute hell, because when Gene Colan left [as artist of] the strip, he was terribly behind, and I had to do — literally — a week’s worth of strips in one night. And the next day, I had to do a week’s worth of dailies, and a Sunday, until I got six weeks ahead, which is where you’re supposed to be in a syndicated strip. And, by the time I got caught up and could enjoy doing the strip, I realized it was losing money — it was dying. The syndicate wasn’t promoting it, and Marvel seemed to have lost enthusiasm for it. People tried to talk me into staying on it — but it was too much work and I was only getting about $200 a month. It just wasn’t worth it. So I quit the strip.” Mayerik would go on to draw the aforementioned series, Void Indigo, with writer Steve Gerber, who said of his collaborator (in an interview with David Anthony Kraft in that same issue of Comics Interview), “I really enjoyed working with him in the past, on Howard the Duck, ‘Man-Thing,’ and a few other stories we did together. I just like his work. It has a very quirky quality that I felt would be exceptionally suited to this strip. He doesn’t draw the standard heroes and villains. You get people with faces, with unusual physiques, and unusual expressions and body stances.” Mayerik would develop his acting chops, work with Continuity Associates, help form a studio with other stalwart artists, and, aside from occasional comics work (including drawing American Splendor stories for Harvey Pekar), the artist moved into advertising art, including storyboard work and gaming art. Today, he lives in Oregon, is an avid horseman and particularly enjoys using Western themes in his paintings.

Above: Mayerik commission done for Shaun Clancy depicting our favorite duck and his speechless, shambling buddy made of muck.

Inset left: The artist depicts Man-Thing, Howard the Duck, and writer Steve Gerber together.

Below: Young Val Mayerik poses for the camera at his drawing table.

19942024 UPDATE #1

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30th Anniversary issue, with KIRBY’S GREATEST VICTORIES! Jack gets the girl (wife ROZ), early hits Captain America and Boy Commandos, surviving WWII, romance comics, Captain Victory and the direct market, his original art battle with Marvel, and finally winning credit! Plus MARK EVANIER, a colossal gallery of Kirby’s winningest pencil art, a never-reprinted SIMON & KIRBY story, and more!

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DAN JURGENS talks about Superman, Sun Devils, creating Booster Gold, developing the “Doomsday scenario” with the demise of the Man of Steel, and more! Traverse DON GLUT’s “Glutverse” continuity across Gold Key, Marvel, and DC! Plus RICK ALTERGOTT, we conclude our profiles of MIKE DEODATO, JR. and FRANK BORTH, LINDA SUNSHINE (editor of DC/Marvel hardcover super-hero collections), & more!

An in-depth look at the life and career of writer/editor DENNY O’NEIL, and part one of a career-spanning interview with ARNOLD DRAKE, co-creator of The Doom Patrol and Deadman! Plus the story behind Studio Zero, the ’70s collective of JIM STARLIN, FRANK BRUNNER, ALAN WEISS, and others! Warren horror mag writer/ historian JACK BUTTERWORTH, alternative cartoonist TIM HENSLEY, & more!

TOM PALMER retrospective, career-spanning interview, and tributes compiled by GREG BIGA. LEE MARRS chats about assisting on Little Orphan Annie, work for DC’s Plop! and underground Pudge, Girl Blimp! The start of a multi-part look at the life and career of DAN DIDIO, part two of our ARNOLD DRAKE interview, public service comics produced by students at the CENTER FOR CARTOON STUDIES, & more!

STEFAN FORMENTANO masterminds the enormous LEGO city NEW HASHIMA, one of the biggest LEGO Fan community builds ever done! Plus builds by SIMON LIU, BLAKE FOSTER, and others! Also: Nerding Out with BRICKNERD, BANTHA BRICKS: Fans of LEGO Star Wars, step-by-step “You Can Build It” instructions by CHRISTOPHER DECK, and Minifigure Customization with JARED K. BURKS!

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creators at the con

Stan Goldberg and The Three Stooges at San Diego Comic-Con 2012:

Russ Heath Jr. and Sgt. Rock at San Diego Comic-Con 2013: Trina Robbins and Pretty in Ink at San Diego Comic-Con 2014:

Babs Tarr shows her Batgirl at New York Comic Con 2014:

Jody Houser and Stranger Things at New York Comic Con 2018:

Strut Your Stuff: Creators with their Creations

For comic book creators, it’s all about the work. When our convention photographer requests a photo, artists and writers often choose to pose with their creations.

Ann Nocenti with Seeds and Ruby Falls at East Coast ComiCon 2019:

Mort Walker with Beetle Bailey at New York Comic Con 2012:

Craig Yoe is confused about which side is up at East Coast ComiCon 2018:

Photography by Kendall Whitehouse 78

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

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coming attractions: cbc #34 in the spring

The Gold Standard of Dan Jurgens

CBC’s Greg Biga talks on matters of life and death — regarding Superman, natch! — with artist/writer DAN JURGENS, as well as myriad other subjects, such as hitting his stride as young artist on Sun Devils, creating Booster Gold, developing the “Doomsday scenario” with the demise of the Man of Steel, and so much more! Plus, for fun, we explore the fascinating and fun GLUTVERSE created by DON GLUT over the course of his comics writing career, a continuity featuring characters that traversed Gold Key, Marvel, DC, and other surprising places! We also chat with RICK ALTERGOTT about his new (and very first!) graphic novel, Blessed Be. We also conclude our pair of epic multi-part profiles: MIKE DEODATO, JR., who discusses triumph and tragedy of recent years; and we cover the last portion of the life of FRANK BORTH, the greatest cartoonist you never heard of! There’s also a conversation with LINDA SUNSHINE, innovative editor behind early hardcover super-hero collections. In addition, Darrick Patrick has his ten questions for artist JUNE BRIGMAN to ponder. And, of course, we include our regular CBC features from Hembeck, Thompson, Arndt, Whitehouse, Ziuko, Meyer, and Sutton! Full-color, 84 pages, $10.95

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2024 • #33

a picture is worth a thousand words

I have accumulated a lot of artwork over the course of my lifetime that very few people have ever seen. With this feature, I try to showcase an artist only once; the better to share with everyone as many artists as possible. But George Pérez is special — special to all of us, and particularly to me. Two of the biggest and most important assignments of my career were Crisis on Infinite Earths and The History of the DC Universe.

Whenever visiting production, I would make copies of George’s cover art before logos and text were added. Some artists wouldn’t bother to complete a drawing where they knew a logo would eventually cover it — but not George. He drew every goddamn inch of that cover, as you can see. This marks George’s third appearance here – the only artist to do so. I can’t think of anyone more talented, more beloved, or more deserving. And, I’m happy to say, more to follow… — TZ

from the archives of Tom Ziuko 80

#33 • Winter 2024 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Get RetroFan back issues! Many early issues are close to selling out!

Order online, or by mail include $4 US postage for the first magazine, and $2 for each additional magazine on the same order. See back cover for subscription rates.

RETROFAN #25

RETROFAN #30

RETROFAN #31

RETROFAN #32

RETROFAN #33

The Brady Bunch’s FLORENCE HENDERSON, the UNKNOWN COMIC revealed, Hanna-Barbera’s Top Cat, a Barbie history, RANKIN/BASS’ Frosty the Snowman, Dell Comics’ Monster SuperHeroes, Slushy Drinks, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

Magic memories of ELIZABETH MONTGOMERY for the 60th Anniversary of TV’s Bewitched! Plus: The ’70s thriller Time After Time (with NICHOLAS MEYER, MALCOLM McDOWELL, and DAVID WARNER), The Alvin Show, BUFFALO BOB SMITH and Howdy Doody, Peter Gunn, Saturday morning’s Run Joe Run and Big John Little John, a trip to Camp Crystal Lake, and more fun, fab features!

Featuring a profile of The Partridge Family’s heartthrob DAVID CASSIDY, THUNDARR THE BARBARIAN, LEGO blocks, Who Created Mighty Mouse?, BUCKAROO BANZAI turns forty, Planet Patrol, Big Little Books, Disco Fever, and more! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER. Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

Meet the Bionic Duo, LEE MAJORS and LINDSAY WAGNER! Plus: Hot Wheels: The Early Years, Fantastic Four cartoons, Modesty Blaise, Hostess snacks, TV Westerns, Movie Icons vs. the Axis Powers, the San Diego Chicken, and more! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER. Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

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RETROFAN #26

RETROFAN #27

RETROFAN #28

RETROFAN #29

Meet Mission: Impossible’s LYNDA DAY GEORGE in an exclusive interview! Celebrate Rambo’s 50th birthday with his creator, novelist DAVID MORRELL! Plus: TV faves WKRP IN CINCINNATI and SPACE: 1999, Fleisher’s and Filmation’s SUPERMAN cartoons, commercial jingles, JERRY LEWIS and BOB HOPE comic books, and more fun, fab features! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

The saga of Saturday morning’s Super Friends, Part One! Plus: A history of MR. T, TV’s AVENGERS (Steed and Mrs. Peel), Daktari’s CHERYL MILLER, Mexican movie monsters, John and Yoko’s nation of Nutopia, ELIZABETH SHEPHERD (the actress who almost played Emma Peel), and more! With ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, MARK VOGER, & MICHAEL EURY.

Interview with Captain Kangaroo BOB KEESHAN, The ROCKFORD FILES, teen monster movies, the Kung Fu and BRUCE LEE crazes, JACK KIRBY’s comedy comics, DON DRYSDALE’s TV drop-ins, outrageous toys, Challenge of the Super Friends, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

The BRITISH INVASION of the Sixties, interview with Bond Girl TRINA PARKS, The Mighty Hercules, Horror Hostess MOONA LISA, World’s Greatest Super Friends, TV Guide Fall Previews, the Frito Bandito, a Popeye Super Collector, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

The story behind BOB CLAMPETT’s Beany & Cecil, western queen DALE EVANS, an interview with Mr. Ed’s ALAN YOUNG, Miami Vice, The Sixties’ Wackiest Robots, Muscle-Maker CHARLES ATLAS, Super Powers Team—Galactic Guardians, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

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RETROFAN #20

RETROFAN #21

RETROFAN #22

RETROFAN #23

RETROFAN #24

MAD’s maddest artist, SERGIO ARAGONÉS, is profiled! Plus: TV’s Route 66 and an interview with star GEORGE MAHARIS, MOE HOWARD’s final years, singer B. J. THOMAS in one of his final interviews, LONE RANGER cartoons, G.I. JOE, and more! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

Meet JULIE NEWMAR, the purr-fect Catwoman! Plus: ASTRO BOY, TARZAN Saturday morning cartoons, the true history of PEBBLES CEREAL, TV’s THE UNTOUCHABLES and SEARCH, the MONKEEMOBILE, SOVIET EXPO ’77, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

Surf’s up as SIXTIES BEACH MOVIES make a RetroFan splash! Plus: He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, ZORRO’s Saturday morning cartoon, TV’s THE WILD, WILD WEST, CARtoons and other drag-mags, VALSPEAK, and more fun, fab features! Like, totally! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

Meet the stars behind the Black Lagoon: RICOU BROWNING, BEN CHAPMAN, JULIE ADAMS, and LORI NELSON! Plus SHADOW CHASERS, featuring show creator KENNETH JOHNSON. Also: THE BEATLES’ YELLOW SUBMARINE, FLASH GORDON cartoons, TV’s cult classic THE PRISONER and kid’s show ZOOM, COLORFORMS, M&Ms, and more fun, fab features! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

Interviews with Lost in Space’s ANGELA CARTWRIGHT and BILL MUMY, and Land of the Lost’s WESLEY EURE! Revisit Leave It to Beaver with JERRY MATHERS, TONY DOW, and KEN OSMOND! Plus: UNDERDOG, Rankin-Bass’ stop-motion classic THE LITTLE DRUMMER BOY, Christmas gifts you didn’t want, the CABBAGE PATCH KIDS fad, and more! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99

Go to www.twomorrows.com to preview and order, including RetroFan #1-19!

New from TwoMorrows!

ALTER EGO #186

ALTER EGO #187

KIRBY COLLECTOR #88

KIRBY COLLECTOR #89

KIRBY COLLECTOR #90

Focuses on great early science-fiction author EDMUND HAMILTON, who went on to an illustrious career at DC Comics, writing Superman, Batman, and especially The Legion of Super-Heroes! Learn all about his encounters with RAY BRADBURY, MORT WEISINGER, JULIUS SCHWARTZ, et al—a panoply of titans! Plus FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT in Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, and more!

THE COLLECTORS! Fans’ quest for and purchase of Jack’s original art and comics, MARV WOLFMAN shares his (and LEN WEIN’s) interactions with Jack as fans and pros, unseen Kirby memorabilia, an extensive Kirby pencil art gallery, MARK EVANIER moderating the 2023 Kirby Tribute Panel from Comic-Con International, plus a deluxe wrap-around Kirby cover with foldout back cover flap, inked by MIKE ROYER!

KIRBY CONSPIRACIES! Darkseid’s Foourth World palace intrigue, the too-many attempted overthrows of Odin, why Stan Lee hated Diablo, Kang contradictions, Simon & Kirby swipes, a never-reprinted S&K story, MARK EVANIER’s WonderCon 2023 Kirby Tribute Panel (with MARV WOLFMAN, PAUL S. LEVINE, and JOHN MORROW), an extensive Kirby pencil art gallery, and more!

WHAT IF KIRBY... hadn’t been stopped by his rejected Spider-Man presentation? DC’s abandonment of the Fourth World? The ill-fated Speak-Out Series? FREDRIC WERTHAM’s anti-comics crusade? The CIA’s involvement with the Lord of Light? Plus a rare Kirby interview, MARK EVANIER and our other columnists, a classic Simon & Kirby story, pencil art gallery, & more! Cover inks by DAMIAN PICKADOR ZAJKO!

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Feb. 2024

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(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Spring 2024

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Summer 2024

Spotlights ANGELO TORRES, the youngest and last of the fabled EC Comics artists— who went on to a fabulous career as a horror, science-fiction, and humor artist for Timely/Marvel, Warren Publishing, and MAD magazine! It’s a lushly illustrated retrospective of his still-ongoing career— plus FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America), MICHAEL T. GILBERT in Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, and more

BACK ISSUE #148

BACK ISSUE #149

BACK ISSUE #150

BRICKJOURNAL #83

DC SUPER-STARS OF SPACE! Adam Strange in the Bronze Age (with RICHARD BRUNING & ANDY KUBERT), From Beyond the Unknown, the Fabulous World of Krypton, Vartox, a Mongul history, the Omega Men, and more! Featuring CARY BATES, DAVE GIBBONS, DAN JURGENS, CURT SWAN, PETER J. TOMASI, MARV WOLFMAN, and more! Cover by CARMINE INFANTINO & MURPHY ANDERSON!

’80s INDIE HEROES: The American, Aztec Ace, Dynamo Joe, Evangeline, Journey, Megaton Man, Trekker, Whisper, and Zot! Featuring CHUCK DIXON, PHIL FOGLIO, STEVEN GRANT, RICH LARSON, SCOTT McCLOUD, WILLIAM MESSNER-LOEBS, DOUG MOENCH, RON RANDALL, DON SIMPSON, MARK VERHEIDEN, CHRIS WARNER & more superstar creators. Cover by NORM BREYFOGLE!

ANNIVERSARY ISSUE! Our oversized 100-PAGE SUPER SPECTACULAR sesquicentennial edition, featuring BATMEN OF THE 1970s! Exploring the work of Bronze Age Batman artists BOB BROWN, DICK GIORDANO, IRV NOVICK, FRANK ROBBINS, WALTER SIMONSON, ALEX TOTH, & BERNIE WRIGHTSON. Plus: revisit FRANK MILLER’s first Batman story, and more!

Blast off deep into space with the creations of DANA KNUDSON and other top space builders, flyby the annual SHIPtember challenge, and see vehicles built for FebROVERy challenge! Plus: Nerding Out with BrickNerd, AFOLs by GREG HYLAND, step-by-step “You Can Build It” instructions by CHRISTOPHER DECK, and Minifigure Customization with JARED K. BURKS! It’s all the right stuff for LEGO fans!

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BACK ISSUE #147

Great Hera, it’s the 20TH ANNIVERSARY OF BACK ISSUE, featuring a tribute to the late, great GEORGE PÉREZ! Wonder Woman: The George Pérez Years, Pérez’s 20 Greatest Hits of the Bronze Age, Pérez’s fanzine days, a Pérez remembrance by MARV WOLFMAN, a Wonder Woman interview with MINDY NEWELL, and more! With a stunning Wonder Woman cover by Pérez!