Jack Kirby Collector #23 by TwoMorrows Publishing

$5.95

In The US

A 68-PAGE ISSUE WHERE ANYTHING GO ES!

ISSUE #23, FEB. 1999

A RARELY-SEEN, FEATURE-LENGTH

Kirby Interview UNINKED PENCILS TO

Fantastic Four #49 Silver Surfer FEATURING THE

COMPARING KIRBY’S MARGIN NO TES TO

INTERVIEW WITH

Denny O’Neil REMINISCENCE BY GRANDDAUGHTER

Tracy Kirby UNPUBLISHED STORY FROM

Soul Love A Kirby Contest Fan Art AND

Unpublished Art INCLUDING PENCIL PAGES BEFO RE THEY WERE INKED, AND MUCH MO RE!! NO MINATED FO R TWO 1998 EISNER AWARDS INCLUDING “BEST COMICS-RELATED PUBLICATION”

1998 HARVEY AWARDS NO MINEE “BEST BIOGRAPHICAL, HISTORICAL OR JOURNALISTIC PRESENTATION”

Demon TM DC Comics, Inc. Artwork © Jack Kirby & Alex Horley.

Stan Lee’s Words

KIRBY

COLLECTOR

BULLETINS

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KIRBY

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KIRBY

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COLORFUL KIBITZING TO KEEP KIRBYHEADS COLLECTIVELY CONTENT! ITEM! Okay readers, you win! We’re reprinting the 240-page COLLECTED JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR, VOLUME 1 (our first TRADE PAPERBACK collection, reprinting TJKC #1-9 plus over 30 NEW pieces of Jack’s art)! Many of our newer readers have complained they couldn’t find a copy, so we’re putting it back into print. It’s available in April for $21.95 postpaid ($24.95 Canada, $34.95 elsewhere), so order now to make sure you get a copy. And don’t forget the 160-page COLLECTED TJKC, VOLUME 2 (our second collection reprinting TJKC #1012), still available for $14.95 postpaid ($16.95 Canada, $24.95 elsewhere). It features a new guided tour of the Kirby’s home (including photos), plus 30 more pieces of NEW Kirby art! ITEM! The updated JACK KIRBY CHECKLIST is now shipping! It’s the most thorough listing of Kirby’s work ever published, and proceeds go to the Kirby Estate. This fullyupdated, definitive edition took over two years to complete, and lists in exacting detail EVERY PUBLISHED COMIC (we think!) featuring Jack’s work, including story titles, page counts, and inkers. It even cross-references reprints, to help collectors locate less-expensive versions of key Kirby issues, and includes an extensive bibliography listing BOOKS, PERIODICALS, PORTFOLIOS, FANzINES, POSTERS, and other obscure pieces with Kirby’s art, plus a detailed list of Jack’s UNPUBLISHED WORK as well. The updated version is 100 pages, and costs $5 postpaid ($5.50 Canada, $7.50 outside North America). It’s a must for the serious collector of Kirby’s work! ITEM! Rascally ROY THOMAS’ classic comics ’zine ALTER EGO is spinning off into its own solo magazine! A/E has been such a hit as the back-up feature in COMIC BOOK ARTIST, we’re making it the third regular TWOMORROWS magazine! Fans and historians worldwide know no one brings comics history to life like Roy, so this June, look for ALTER EGO #1 at your local comics shop, or see next issue for subscription rates. (And don’t worry; A/E will remain in COMIC BOOK ARTIST through issue #5, also out in June.) ITEM! Speaking of COMIC BOOK ARTIST, issue #4 ships next month, and spotlights WARREN PUBLISHING: EMPIRE OF HORROR! In addition to a new interview with JIM WARREN, there’s rare and unpublished art by and interviews with such greats as BERNIE WRIGHTSON, RICHARD CORBEN, FRANK FRAzETTA, JACK DAVIS, AL WILLIAMSON, HARVEY KURTzMAN, and others who creeped us out with their stellar work for Warren! CBA #13 are still available for $5.95 each, and you can subscribe for four issues for only $20 ($27 Canada, $37 elsewhere)!

If you want to get involved with CBA, submit copies of art from your collection and articles about your favorite comics artists to JON B. COOKE, PO Box 204, W. Kingston, RI 02892-0204. ITEM! Rollickin’ RICK VEITCH has started a “virtual comicon” on the Internet, and it’s a rousing success with fans and pros alike! In addition, Rick had added a daily comics news section to keep fans updated on the latest goings-on in the field. Check it out by pointing your web browser to www.comicon.com/splash

JOHN’S JUKEBOX Things in life seem to have a way of coming back around to surprise you. It’s been four years since we’ve done a “miscellaneous” issue of TJKC, and after a long string of “theme” issues, here we are again. Longtime readers who’ve grown accustomed to more structured themes may find this looser, more free-wheeling “Anything Goes” issue a bit too haphazard, but my goal was to find a place for some of the wonderful submissions that really didn’t seem to fit any of our themes. To me, an issue of TJKC is a success if you come away from it learning something new about Jack or some aspect of his career, and discover at least one piece of Kirby art you’d never seen before. Only you can decide if it worked for you, but putting this one together really brought back a lot of the fun I had working on the early issues of TJKC. But for those of you who just have to have a theme to latch on to, consider this our “Generations” issue. Let me use a variation on the game “Six Degrees of Separation” to explain why: 1) NBC-TV news anchor Tom Brokaw has a wonderful book out called “The Greatest Generation”, analyzing what made Jack’s generation so remarkable. 2) In this issue, Jack talks about his son Neal. 3) Neal’s daughter Tracy, who has an article in this issue, is working in Hollywood. 4) Hollywood produced the blaxploitation films that inspired the unused SOUL LOVE story in this issue. 5) SOUL LOVE is from 1970, when the “Generation Gap” was a problem between fathers and sons. 6) Bruce Graham discusses this issue how HIS father had dealings with Kirby at NBC-TV—which is where Tom Brokaw is the news anchor. See how things have a way of coming back around? Long Live The King!

ITEM! We’re planning our most ambitious convention schedule ever this year! Tentatively look for the TwoMorrows booth at MEGACON (March 5-7 in Orlando, FL), WONDERCON (April 16-18 in San Francisco, CA), the NEW YORK COMIC SPECTACULAR (May 7-9 at Madison Square Garden), WIzARD WORLD (July 16-18 in Chicago, IL), COMIC-CON INTERNATIONAL (August 12-15 in San Diego, CA), and (if we’re still breathing by then) the SMALL PRESS EXPO (September 17-19 in Bethesda, MD)! You never know what industry greats we’ll coerce into doing a signing at our booth, so be sure to STOP BY AND SAY HOWDY! ITEM! The Denny O’Neil interview this issue is run in conjunction with the O’NEIL OBSERVER, a brand new publication dedicated to the work of Demure DENNY and the craft of comic book writing! O’NO #1 is now shipping, and features interviews with Steve Englehart, Mark Evanier, Elliot S! Maggin, and Steve Skeates, original artwork (including Kirby KUNG-FU FIGHTER pages not seen here in TJKC), and more! For a FREE copy, be one of the first 250 people to send four 33¢ stamps to Bodacious BOB BRODSKY, 8455 Fountain Avenue #611, West Hollywood, CA 90069. SUPPORT THE FAN PRESS!

TWOMORROWS CHECKLIST For full descriptions of each issue, see page 67 SORRY, TJKC #1-6, 8-12, 14, and 15 ARE SOLD OUT!! THE COLLECTED TJKC, VOLUME ONE: (Back In Print in April!) 240-page trade paperback reprinting TJKC #1-9, plus new art! $21.95 ($24.95 Canada, $34.95 elsewhere) THE COLLECTED TJKC, VOLUME TWO: 160-page trade paperback, reprinting TJKC #10-12, plus new Kirby art! $14.95 ($16.95 Canada, $24.95 elsewhere) THE JACK KIRBY CHECKLIST: (NEW!) 100 pages! $5.00 ($5.50 Canada, $7.50 elsewhere) Now shipping! TJKC #7: We found extras of our 36-page KID GANG theme issue! $4.95 ($5.40 Canada, $7.40 elsewhere)

John Morrow, Editor

TJKC #13: 52-page SUPERNATURAL theme issue! $4.95 ($5.40 Canada, $7.40 elsewhere)

TwoMorrows 1812 Park Dr. • Raleigh, NC 27605 • (919) 833-8092 FAX (919) 833-8023 • E-mail: twomorrow@aol.com

TJKC #16: 52-page TOUGH GUYS theme issue! $4.95 ($5.40 Canada, $7.40 elsewhere)

ITEM! If you want to find a comics shop in your neck of the woods (or if you’re travelling and want to know where the local shops are), pick up your phone and call up the COMIC SHOP LOCATOR SERVICE toll-free at 888-COMIC BOOK (that’s 888-2664226). This is a totally free service sponsored by DIAMOND COMIC DISTRIBUTORS, in an effort to get more people exposed to the wonderful world of comics! ITEM! TWOMORROWS PUBLISHING has a brand new Web Site (maintained by RANDY HOPPE) located at www.twomorrows.com which features sample art and articles from each issue of THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR and COMIC BOOK ARTIST (and coming soon, the new, solo ALTER EGO)! There’s also ordering info for back issues and subscriptions, so check it out! And if you love getting tons of e-mail from fellow Kirby fans, join the KIRBY MAILING LIST by sending an e-mail request to Randy Hoppe at kirby-l@fantasty.com

TJKC #17: 68-page DC theme issue! $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) TJKC #18: 68-page MARVEL theme issue! $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) TJKC #19: 56-page ART theme issue! $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) TJKC #20: 68-page WOMEN theme issue! $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) TJKC #21: 68-page issue on Jack’s WACKIEST WORK! $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) TJKC #22: 68-page issue on Jack’s VILLAINS! $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) COMIC BOOK ARTIST #1: (100-pages) DC Comics: 1967-74! ADAMS, INFANTINO, KIRBY, KUBERT, SEKOWSKY, CARDY, new ADAMS cover, and more! (Plus ALTER EGO!) $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) COMIC BOOK ARTIST #2: (100-pages) Marvel Comics: 1970-77! STAN LEE, KANE, STERANKO, WINDSORSMITH, STARLIN, PLOOG, new KANE cover, more! (Plus ALTER EGO!) $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) COMIC BOOK ARTIST #3: (100-pages) NEAL ADAMS: THE MARVEL YEARS! New ADAMS INTERVIEW, thumbnails, unused X-Men Graphic Novel pages, and more! (Plus ALTER EGO!) $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere)

VISIT THE NEW TWOMORROWS WEB SITE: www.twomorrows.com 2

Issue #23 Contents: Keeping The Light On ........................4 (Tracy Kirby remembers her grandpa and an old school project) The “What If?” Kirby Never Did ........6 (make way for Darkseid, True Believer!) Questions & Answers Odditorium.....7 (mysteries of the new Kirby Checklist) Kirby Contest!.....................................9 (Uncle Giveaway wants you to enter!) A Nice Story .....................................1 2 (behind the scenes with Captain Nice) Fan Art..............................................14 (our readers share their talents) Car & Driver.....................................1 8 (why the Whiz Wagon is up on blocks) Jack Kirby Interview .........................19 (a feature-length chat from 1987, complete with plenty of war stories) Centerfold: FF #49 Pencils!...............3 4 (Jack’s early Silver Surfer in pencil!) A Failure To Communicate...............3 6 (Part Three of our series comparing Jack’s margin notes to Stan’s dialogue, featuring the Silver Surfer) The Kirby Kronicles .........................4 2 (a fan’s encounter with the King) Two Letters To Jack ..........................4 3 A Kirby Memory ..............................4 3 (a couple of fans in search of Jack’s autograph) Talking With Jack Kirby ...................4 3 (the strangest, shortest interview ever) O’Neil On Kirby ...............................4 4 (Denny O’Neil on Justice Inc. and Richard Dragon, Kung-Fu Fighter) Heart & Soul.....................................4 8 (True Divorce Cases and Soul Love examined in detail) “The Teacher”...................................5 4 (a previously unpublished Kirby story) Classifieds.........................................6 4 Collector Comments.........................6 5

ISSUE #23, FEB. 1999

THE ONLY ’ ZINE AUTHORIZED BY THE KIRBY ESTATE

Jack’s pencils to the Black Bolt pin-up in FF Annual #5.

Front cover painting: Alex Horley Back cover inks, collage, and color: Jack Kirby Photocopies of Jack’s uninked pencils from published comics are reproduced here courtesy of the Kirby Estate, which has our thanks for their continued support. COPYRIGHTS: Atlas, Big Barda, Big Words, Brute, Captain Marvel, Chagra, Demon, Flippa Dippa, Gabby, Glob, Guardian, Henry Jones, In The Days Of The Mob, Jed, Jimmy Olsen, Lightray, Losers, Metron, Mother Box, Mr. Miracle, Mr. Scarlet, Newsboy Legion, Orion, Richard Dragon, Sandman, Scrapper, Soul Love, Spirit World, Superman, Tommy, True Divorce Cases, Whiz Wagon TM & © DC Comics, Inc. • Alicia Masters, Amphibian, Angel, Atlas Monsters, Beast, Black Bolt, Captain America, Cyclops, Daredevil, Dr. Doom, Dr. Strange, DumDum Dugan, Enforcers, Fantastic Four, Franklin, Gorgilla, Hawkeye, Hulk, Human Torch, Iceman, Ikaris, Impossible Man, Indestructible, Invisible Girl, Iron Man, Marvel Girl, Mole Man, Molecule Man, Mr. Fantastic, Nick Fury, Odin, Pepper, Professor X, Punisher, Puppet Master, Quicksilver, Replicus, Scarlet Witch, Silver Surfer, Spider-Man, Sub-Mariner, Thing, Thor, Watcher, X-Men TM & © Marvel Entertainment, Inc. • Alien, Humanoid, Sky Masters, Spaceship © Jack Kirby • Destroyer Duck and all associated characters © Jack Kirby and Steve Gerber • Bullseye, Don Daring, Stuntman, Uncle Giveaway © Joe Simon & Jack Kirby • Captain Nice and all associated characters TM & © NBC-TV • Black Hole and all associated characters TM & © Walt Disney Productions • “The Unexplained Phenomenon of the UFO” © Tracy Kirby

This issue’s front cover is a painting by Alex Horley of a Demon pencil drawing we ran back in TJKC #17. Our back cover this issue is the original Metron concept drawing, in ink, watercolor, and collage by Jack himself! The Jack Kirby Collector, Vol. 6, No. 23, Feb. 1999. Published bi-monthly by & © TwoMorrows Publishing, 1812 Park Drive, Raleigh, NC 27605, USA. 919-833-8092. John Morrow, Editor. Pamela Morrow, Asst. Editor. Jon B. Cooke, Assoc. Editor. Single issues: $5.95 ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere). Six-issue subscriptions: $24.00 US, $32.00 Canada and Mexico, $44.00 outside North America. First printing. All characters are trademarks of their respective companies. All artwork is © Jack Kirby unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter is © the respective authors. PRINTED IN CANADA.

Keeping The Light On by Jack and Roz’s granddaughter Tracy Kirby edtime was my favorite part of the day at my grandparents’ house because I knew Grandpa would be in full swing at the drawing table. Each time I fought to sleep on the big, yellow, “smushy” couch in the living room so I could easily sneak into Grandpa’s studio. Now, I’ll admit, I was afraid of the dark. However, I never needed a nightlight because the glow from his studio would always prevail over the evil, threatening shadows. This was the time I had Grandpa all to myself. I would just look through the crack of the door and watch him draw. In my early years, a pen would be in one hand, a pipe in the other. What a wonderful smell! Many times, I came into the studio, sat on the couch, quietly watching. If I was really lucky, he would take a break and tell me one of his amazing mystery or World War Two stories (in the style of Boy Commandos, of course!). Those were the nights I could stay awake forever, just listening and watching. At my age he wasn’t a famous comics artist. I never knew how truly important he was to the world until much later. To me he was magical, my own personal Merlin. He was the greatest storyteller a kid could ask for—and a great grandpa. While duking it out in Hollywood to put Grandpa’s name on the

big screen and try writing myself, all the stories and memories keep flooding into my mind. I don’t see the images of Captain America, the Thing (well, except maybe for the “Jewish Thing” on the wall in the studio), Thor, or even the original Boy Commandos page they had on the kitchen wall. I see his beaten-up drawing table, his pipe tray, his entire National Geographic collection and sci-fi books on the shelves, a really dorky picture with him and costumed characters, the Yankee baseball cap he always wore, and the glorious backyard. (The backyard itself requires a separate novel regarding all the wonderful and funny things that happened back there over the years. The UFO story pops into my mind vividly.) So as I start writing and developing the Kirby stories, I can’t help but think back to those precious moments when staying up late was a reward. For me, in those starlit hours, dreams became real and imagination was allowed to run free. I will always thank him for letting me listen and be a part of his creations, and not to mention... for keeping the light on. Tracy Kirby August 13, 1998 4

Shown on the previous page is the cover to perhaps the rarest and most unique document ever to feature Kirby art: Tracy’s seventh grade report on UFOs, from May 16, 1985. She was twelve at the time, and while the cover art is by Tracy, Grandpa Jack did three drawings for her report, as shown here. Tracy credited her grandfather in the report’s bibliography, but we’re unsure how much the art contributed to Tracy’s “A” (she got a 98 out of 100!). While the teacher did write “Loved the artwork” in the margins, the report itself was remarkably well-written for a twelve-year-old, detailing several UFO sightings and the US Air Force’s Project Blue Book investigation of the “flying saucer” phenomenon. In addition, she outlined the three most common descriptions of aliens by people who’ve claimed to see them:

1) “Space Brothers” (handsome, golden-haired humanoids who come to Earth to give a message to humans—think of “Him” from Fantastic Four #66) 2) Little green men (or “LGMs”, not to be confused with Big green men like the Hulk) 3) Hairy, smelly monsters (à la Bigfoot, and many of Jack’s Atlas monsters) Like something out of one of her grandfather’s first-issue text pages, Tracy’s report ends by asking questions, and leaving it up to the reader to draw their own conclusions: “Many scientists have come up with theories trying to find out where these UFOs come from, but the best theory of all comes from you. Do you believe in UFOs? Have you ever seen one, or an alien? If you have, then there just might be intelligent life out there. If you haven’t, then UFOs don’t really mean much. But try looking up at the sky one night—or even day—and maybe, just maybe, you will see [one], and help explain the yet unexplained phenomenon of the UFO.”

It appears Tracy inherited the Kirby fascination with the unknown—our thanks to her for sharing this rare keepsake with us.★

The “What If?” Kirby Never Did by Jerry Boyd arvel Comics’ “What If...?” series of the late ’70s began interestingly enough, delineating the questions readers had asked and sometimes answered in the letter columns of the ’60s and ’70s. “What if Captain America and Bucky had survived WW II?” and “What if the Avengers had never been?” were two of the better-written entries, in my opinion, in a string of good tales. Jack Kirby, back at Marvel, even got into the act in What If? #11, writing and drawing some of the Marvel Age’s founders as a type of Not Brand Echh version of the fabulous Fantastic Four. Unfortunately, this was to be the King’s sole foray into the realm of alternate realities—a realm which could have been the beginning of a new Kirby excitement. One cannot help but wonder what Jack could’ve done with a story in which Doctor Doom, with the Silver Surfer’s powers (à la FF #57-60 ), actually conquers the FF and the world! How about Captain America being forced to aid the cosmic cube-holding Red Skull (a variation on Tales Of Suspense #79-81) to subjugate and enslave America? Or suppose Thor had defied Odin and renounced his godly heritage forever (a new take on Thor #136) for the love of Jane Foster? With Kirby’s imagination, these possibilities and others would’ve been mind-boggling! At a convention I attended in the late ’70s, a germ of a “What If...?” idea was brought to Kirby’s ears when a young man said to him, “I’d like to hear your opinion on Thor.” “Nobility with muscles,” Jack responded. “But could he take Orion?” someone else asked. “Now there’s an idea,” Jack answered and continued on with the drawing of Kamandi he was doing for a fan. That fan’s question at the con had set my own imagination off and running. What if Jack Kirby had done his brilliant Fourth World storyline at Marvel? Instead of leaving Marvel in 1970, suppose he had remained and done his magnum opus for the House of Ideas? It’s rumored Jack talked with Stan Lee about killing off Thor, Odin, Hercules, etc. and beginning a new epic with a race of “new” gods, but Stan rejected Jack’s proposal. Mighty Thor (and by extension Asgardian mythology) was an important piece of the Marvel tapestry, after all. In addition, Thor and Hercules were Avengers. Why risk abandoning a winning concept for the unknown? Perhaps in his heart of hearts, Jack realized Stan (and probably publisher Martin Goodman) wouldn’t have given in to his request, and this provided an added reason for departing from Marvel. Jack had worked and reworked his godwar quietly since 1967 and it had become his passion. The rest is comics history—published under the banner of National Periodicals. I got my copy of New Gods #1 just before the eighth issue hit the stands. Having had issues #3, 5, 6, and 7 already, it was great to see this opening act. Overwhelmed by this tidal wave of incredible concepts, I had quickly gotten used to Kirby being at DC and had applauded his use of Superman, Jimmy Olsen, Morgan Edge, etc. in his mammoth storyline—but reading New Gods #1 for the first time, I couldn’t help but see the “four humans from Earth” that Kalibak captured not as they were, but as... the Fantastic Four! If the New Gods had been brought in at Marvel, it probably would’ve started as a guest shot in the pages of Fantastic Four. That book, more than any other at Marvel, was the wellspring of many of the company’s most fascinating characters and daring concepts. Upon being freed by Orion, Reed Richards would’ve been anxious to find out as much as he could about the alien civilizations of New Genesis and Apokolips (as he did with the Inhumans and the Great Refuge). Perhaps the space-time energies of the Negative Zone could allow a futuristic link for the Boom Tube to operate. That way Asgard and Olympus could continue to exist. Stan would’ve insisted on crossovers to enhance sales. So we could have possibly seen Captain America and Col. Fury— two “super soldiers”—encountering Orion the fierce, the “ultimate soldier.” Hercules vs. Orion? Kalibak battles the Hulk... or Thor? The technology of Darkseid’s evil engineers against the mystical enchantment and supernatural super-weapons of Odin’s Asgard? How about Mantis and his legion of “bugs” joining with the Mole Man and his subterraneans to destroy first the X-Men, and later enslave the world? The Silver Surfer pursued by the Black Racer? The possibilities go on and on. Had Kirby stayed at Marvel, it’s entirely possible that his celestial confrontations (dismissing crossovers entirely) would’ve been given more time to develop. We fans might have been privy to a much longer novelization than what we got, and perhaps we’d have gotten the tale the way Jack intended. But Jack had a story to tell—an incredible story—and he, at that point in his career, most likely felt he had to make his statement without Stan, Joe Simon, or anyone else as his co-writer or editor. He was right. Because of that work and subsequent material, we have today a greater knowledge of Jack’s power as a writer, plotter, artist, and conceptualist—but it’s still fun, at least for this fan, to speculate on the concept of the New Gods in the Marvel Universe. What If...?★

THE MIGHTY MARVEL CHECKLIST featuring Fourth World friends and foes as they might’ve been in the far-out, funky ’70s! FANTASTIC FOUR #113: The world’s most fabulous foursome must team up with the mad Maximus and his evil Inhumans to wrest control of the Great Refuge from... Rameses! AVENGERS SPECIAL #5: It’s all-out action as Kang’s armies, the Deep Six, and the Mole Man’s subterraneans battle the Avengers assembled on three fronts around the world. The prize: Earth! MARVEL SUPER-HEROES #35: Who is Magnar? We’ll give you a hint: He’s King Kirby’s newest, most exciting New Genesis hero! And wait’ll he meets the Abomination! DEFENDERS #7: A shocker! Old Greenskin, Subby, and the Surfer fight in the service of Darkseid! You must not miss it! MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE #22: Bashful Benjy and Iron Man battle Devilance, who’s battling Mister Miracle and Lightray! Confused? Don’t be. Kirby says, “BUY IT, READ IT, AND YOU’LL LOVE IT!” X-MEN #84: Billion-Dollar Bates is gone! But a portion of his “Anti-Life Equation” now rests in the mutant mind of Charles Xavier! Can our merry mutants and the Forever People save him from Darkseid and Dr. Bedlam? CAPTAIN MARVEL #40: The Kree want to conquer Earth, but so does Apokolips! This meeting between Mar-vell and Kanto, the master assassin, will be one you won’t soon forget! THOR #214: This is the big one! Thor battles Kalibak in Norway! But in Asgard, the most powerful God of all sleeps the Odin-sleep while those minions of evil—Loki and Darkseid—attack! Will Asgard survive?! NEW GODS #34: Orion... captured by Apokolips! On a dead planet, Granny Goodness and Virman Vundabar subject him to... the Dreadcourse! It’s merely a gauntlet/training course for Apokolips warriors and an exercise in extreme cruelty! Plus: Fastbak returns! ASTONISHING TALES #13: Double WOW! The “aggressorterrorist” nation of Latveria just got a lot worse... because Darkseid’s in charge of it now! But don’t think Doc Doom’s gonna take it lying down! And if that doesn’t blow your mind, Ka-zar’s mixing it up with Forager! FOREVER PEOPLE #15: The Supertowners’ new ally, the Silver Surfer, has helped them escape from their prison-tomb in Section zero. Now, they all must face the Female Furies, led by the majestic menace of... Phantasmagloria! MARVEL SPOTLIGHT #8: Lightray of New Genesis goes solo in this one! Jaunty Jim Steranko handled the art and story chores this time, and adjectives don’t do it justice! DR. STRANGE #196: Hey gang, remember the Infinity Man? Well, he’s finally pierced the dimensional barrier that’s been holding him prisoner only to land up in... the realm of the dread Dormammu—where our mystic mage is a prisoner! It’s excitement from cover to cover! And wait until you see Genial Gene’s rendition of the Infinite One! MISTER MIRACLE #19: Scott Free and Big Barda take up residence in Supertown! But in the ruins of the old gods, feelings and old experiences are relayed between the super escape artist and Orion. In the tradition of “The Pact” comes “Princes, Pawns, and Power Struggles!” With King Kirby at the helm, can it be anything less than an instant classic? NICK FURY, AGENT OF SHIELD #20: The incredible, Desaad-engineered Hydra-carrier strikes from space! Can the intrepid agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. halt its mind-rays of AntiLife before a continent falls into chaos?!

The

Jack Kirby Checklist:

Questions & Answers Odditorium by Richard Kolkman, compiler of the 1998 Kirby Checklist

rying to compile the definitive Jack Kirby Checklist is like trying to enumerate pí; the closer one gets to the end, the farther away it gets. The solid foundation upon which the additions and corrections were added was Catherine Hohlfeld and Ray Wyman’s The Art of Jack Kirby list. The largest volume of work had already been done. New information added to the list appears to lessen the number of “holes” or questions, but it often creates more labyrinths and avenues on which to chase down and crossreference everything to everything else. Through the research and involvement of a number of knowledgeable Kirby fans around the world, the Kirby Checklist was updated, tiny mistakes and all, to 1998. The road to compiling the updated 1998 edition of the Checklist is littered with good submissions, bad recollections, and a lot of detective work—not to mention having to leap-frog over every Sserpo, Zzutak, Vandoom, and Googam that pops up during a spelling check. Sometimes there is a sobering shock, like discovering that my Strange Tales #127 is missing the pin-up page! (Choke!) Jean Depelley of France sent the information in on Strange Tales #127, and now we all know that there is a dynamic Thing pin-up page by Kirby in that issue. An early Kirby milestone now listed is Wags #64 (March 20, 1938), published in the UK by Joshua B. Powers. This “Count Of Monte Cristo” one-page installment by Kirby and Eisner marks the first original full-page Kirby art to be published—or is it? One obscure mystery that has puzzled me, and has possibly already been disproved by those far more knowledgeable than I, is the comic book Wow—What a Magazine! In an interview (translated by Fabio Paolo Barbieri) in Lucca, Italy in 1976, Jack Kirby told interviewer Nessim Vaturi about his involvement on this comic book:

Kirby mis-remembering his involvement on Fawcett’s Wow Comics as occurring five years earlier, and with a different publisher? It seems as though Kirby would at the least remember the first comic that he had worked on. It’s known that Eisner and Iger were involved with work on this comic book. Does someone out there have the answer? One of the ways to economize on room in the Checklist was to list reprints that were not featured in their entirety as “partial.” Without going into too much detail, the reader can figure out what’s been carved from the Kirby/Lee masterpiece. For example, in Marvel Treasury Edition #11 (which features a new Kirby/Giacoia front and back cover), the reprint of Fantastic Four #51 (“This Man, This Monster”) is reduced to 16 pages from 20 by eliminating pages 10, 11 and 14. Marvel cropped page 9 and added one tier of panels from page 12. The missing material is Johnny Storm and Wyatt Wingfoot (pages 1012), and a photo collage (page 14). This goes to show that no matter how alluring reprints are, it’s still wiser to stick to the “originals.” A big question about the Checklist was raised regarding the designation of “Kirby - a(l)”; this means that Kirby did art on a particular piece, but only in layout form. Also, the Checklist combines original stories and reprints into one long list—because many comics and annuals mix the two types of stories (old and new). To separate those into two lists would either split up hundreds of books such as Fantastic Four Annuals, or list them twice. One of the most interesting mysteries introduced to the Checklist is “A Personal Message From Spider-Man” which appears in Amazing Spider-Man #1. Is it Kirby? “Look at the fingers” was the message written on the Checklist submission. There just might be something to that, so it’s listed. It’s up to the VATURI: “You said earlier that early in fans and historians to decide. Also, I didn’t your career you used to work for a want to believe it, but the proof was book called WOW!” irrefutable; Kirby did two covers KIRBY: “Yes, it was the first magazine for Spidey Super Stories I worked for. Jerry Siegel and (#19 and 20). Will Eisner used to publish However, I may it. They were my bosses have gone too back then, and those were far in agreethe first years of comics, ing to list and WOW—What a Romita’s Magazine! was one of the Kirbyesque first comic magazines.” cover on (above) Are those “Kingfingers”? (left) Daredevil #7 cover. The Overstreet Guide #24. describes WOW—What a Magazine! as a magaOn the other hand, is the cover of Daredevil zine-sized format comic published in 1936 by #7 [shown at left] by Kirby and Wood? The conDavid McKay & Henle Publishing Co., and was sensus that was reached among knowledgeable 52 pages of original and reprint material. The fans is that it’s pure Wood (and dynamic Wood Gerber Photo Journal designates the scarcity of at that!). The new Checklist was also able to discard these books from “8” to “10”, indicating that fewer covers that had been attributed to Kirby for years, than 5 to 20 copies of each issue are presumed to and consign them to find their own place in exist. So how many Kirby experts have even seen comics history. If someone does the George Tuska these comics? Is is possible that Kirby was involved Checklist, then they’ll certainly want to list Iron with this book the year that he was picking up Man #13 (an intense cover); and Tower of Shadows steam with Lincoln Features Syndicate? Was #4 is a dark, swirling Marie Severin and Bill 7

Everett masterpiece. They just aren’t by Kirby. There’s a lot of comic art in the world not by Kirby, even if when we were children, it did seem like he did half of it. I’ve always had a pet theory that there is a Kirby/Romita panel in Thor #182 (page 14, panel 2, shown below). Why not? One panel in November 1970 is not as far-out as March 1971’s Fantastic Four #108 paste-up jubilee. While this kind of conjecture is fun, it really doesn’t fit into the Checklist. There are times when the work fairly shouts Kirby, but without substantiation, there’s no use in listing it. The most impressive example of this is in Tales of Suspense #58. Check out page 12, panel 2—Kirby?—or page 4, panel 6; there’s something quite odd between the Heck characters in the background, and the looming “Kirbyesque” figure of Captain America in the foreground [as shown below]. Why is Cap’s right hand resting almost halfway across the room on the point of the desk in front of Pepper? It seems to be an odd paste-up—neither fully Heck, nor fully Kirby; a hasty abomination.

covers was already in full swing by 1971. In concept, “Gigantus” resembles other large fish-like creatures that lumber out of the ocean to wreak destruction. There’s “Titan, The Amphibian From Atlantis” (the only example of Russ Heath inking Kirby) in Tales of Suspense #28. Perhaps this story was renamed because “Titan” was the new name used for the original “Hulk” reprints from Journey into Mystery #62 and 66. (These were reprinted in Monsters on the Prowl #11 and 14.) A quick check reveals that “Hulk/Titan” is not “Gigantus.” Was “Gigantus” a previously unpublished story? It’s unlikely. As a last resort, it’s necessary to read the reprinted story for clues. On page 5, in panel 1, the man in the window refers to “Goliath.” With that revealing slip by the ’70s reletterer, “Gigantus” can be traced to Journey into Mystery #63. It appears that “Goliath” was renamed in deference to the Goliath then-currently appearing in Avengers. It all makes perfect sense. ’Nuff said? The most far-out, bizarre mish-mash of editorial tampering on a 1970s Atlas monster reprint was Where Creatures Roam #5. The cover features the “Abominable Snowman” from the cover of Tales to Astonish #24 and is retitled “Gorgilla” and has the usual additional useless characters added to the cover. The reprinted story inside is actually “Gorgilla Strikes Again” from Tales to Astonish #18. Why couldn’t Marvel just play it straight, and reprint these stories as nature intended? While some mysteries are solved, others appear in the mail. The Checklist has to adopt criteria to keep fringe information from taking on a life of its own. If the Hulk’s head is red in a reprint, and yellow in the original story, it’s not listed. This is too far afield from Kirby’s storytelling and art. Most questionable half-panels and rumored assists are largely left out of the Checklist. A few curious exceptions are included, however. Marvel’s Official Avengers Index lists Avengers #17 as having Kirby retouching faces, primarily on the Mole Man. It sounds far-fetched, and looks as though Kirby must have done the retouching with his hands tied behind his back, but who can disprove it? Heck, in a similar vein, Avengers Special #1—page 48, panel 3, shown here—features a reduced photostat from the cover of Avengers #25. What was wrong with the panel the way it was originally penciled? For reasons unknown, Kirby penciled only portions of some comic covers. A few of these covers appear to be pre-planned, such as Secret Origins #19 (1987), which features a new Kirby/ Anderson Golden Guardian figure. But other covers appear to suffer from a form of editorial tampering. Amazing Spider-Man #10 [shown on next page] and 35 both feature Kirby Spider-Man figures. Were these originally part of whole Kirby covers? Or were they doctored and pasted-up, reducing Kirby’s contri-

An important unanswered puzzle lost in the mists of time is: How many pages was Kirby’s try-out for the new Spider-Man character in Amazing Fantasy #15? I listed two, because Stan Lee said “a couple” of sample pages were completed (in his Comic Book Marketplace interview). But Steve Ditko remembers around five pages, when they were given to him to inspect before he created his definitive version of Spider-Man. Perhaps Ditko is more accurate, because Stan’s “couple” could still mean five after 38 years. Do these pages even exist today, true believer? The most ambitious phase of the Checklist was to cross-reference all of Kirby’s reprinted stories to their original publication. Marvel’s 1970s horror reprints were the toughest nut to crack. In their indefinable wisdom, Marvel renamed many of their monster stories in an effort to comply with current super-hero and villain names. Not only were the monster names relettered, but often topical references to S.H.I.E.L.D. were thrown in for current effect. Consider the mysterious case of Where Monsters Dwell #10. It features an obviously reprinted story called “Gigantus”—but where is it from? There’s “Gargantus” in Strange Tales #80, and the “Return Of Gargantus” in Strange Tales #85, but neither of these are it. In desperation, let’s examine “Iron Man Vs. Gargantus” in Tales of Suspense #40—but even before the lid comes off of the comic box, it’s an apparent dead end. The redundant (but good) new Marie Severin artwork added to the cover of Where Monsters Dwell #10 does not confuse the question of prior publication. Marvel’s horrible practice of butchering Kirby’s Atlas 8

bution to a single figure? The cover of Avengers #33 is a clear example of how far this “cobbling together” of pieces can go. The entire cover is by Don Heck, except the background figures all appear to be penciled by Kirby. It’s hard to imagine Marvel commissioning a board from Kirby just to draw some background figures. Since the artists only worked on what was assigned to them, there must have been editorial decisions made that created these piecemeal collaborations. But it must always be remembered that these comic books were created in an atmosphere of relentless deadlines. The quality that Marvel Comics achieved in the 1960s is second only to the EC Comics of the 1950s (just my opinion). That quality was achieved despite drawing, inking, pasting-up, coloring, producing films, and printing at an accelerated rate. Mistakes can happen. Even the Checklist has its share of omissions

and errors. Luckily, many Kirby fans are ready with the information. TJKC and Comic Book Artist proofreader Richard Howell (also editor of the Real Love collection in 1988) contributed omitted information. A Third Eye blacklight “Madame Medusa” poster was uncovered by Derrick Bostrom. Carl Taylor sent in a very early publication of the original version of the cover for Superman’s Pal Jimmy Olsen #133 (Graphic Story World V.2, #2, July 1972). Finally, it was Paul Gravett that revealed that the “Fighting American” parody cover issue of SICK is #42 (V.6, #2, Feb 1966). This cover has added art by Joe Simon as well as featuring SICK’s version of Alfred E. Neuman in the “transfer machine” chair next to Fighting American. It doesn’t get any better than that, does it? All of this information has come in since the publication of the “final” edition of The Jack Kirby Checklist in December. On January 13, 1999 DC Comics released Legends of the DC Universe #14. It must be seen to be believed. It’s based on an unused plot by Kirby, with script by Mark Evanier and beautiful Kirbyesque art by Steve Rude and inker Bill Reinhold (who does the greatest mindmeld with Colletta ever). It’s easy to see that the flow of Kirby information may slow down, but like his creations, may never run out.★ (The 1998 final edition of the Jack Kirby Checklist is now shipping; the cost is $5.00 postpaid in the US, $5.50 Canada, $7.50 elsewhere. Proceeds from the Checklist go to the Kirby Estate. If you find any omissions or corrections to the list, please send them either to TwoMorrows, or even better, send them directly to Richard Kolkman at: P.O. Box 68256 Indianapolis, IN 46268 e-mail: BigFlatCit@aol.com If enough changes come in over the next year, we’ll try to issue a special updated Millennium Edition in the year 2000—or even more appropriately, in 2001!)

The Jack Kirby Collector Proudly(?) Presents: THE FIRST (KIND OF) ANNUAL

UNCLE GIVEAWAY CONTEST GIVEAWAY! The King had some wacky and bizarre ideas and gaffes during his career! How well do you think you know some of ’em? Take our simple(?) quiz on the next two pages, & send in an entry! Everyone’s a winner!

HERE’S WHAT YOU COULD WIN: Our great sponsors have provided a tasty melange of rare Kirby treats! And everyone who enters receives an OFFICIAL TJKC “SOME-PRIZE!” GRAND PRIZE: SPIRIT WORLD #1 & IN THE DAYS OF THE MOB #1

FIRST PRIZE: SUPER-SCARCE GOLDEN AGE KIRBY REPRINTS FROM THE 1970’S

CONTEST SUBMITTED & SPONSORED BY: John at Atlas Comics 4735 N. Cumberland Norridge, IL 60656 (708) 453-2110

Rick at Variety Comics 4602 N. Western Chicago, IL 60625 (773) 334-2550

(If you get to Chicago, stop by and talk Jack with the two old MMMS’ers!)

SECOND PRIZE: S& K STUNTMAN REPRINT

THIRD PRIZE: SKY MASTERS BOOK ONE

HERE’S HO W TO PLAY: ON THESE TWO PAGES, YOU’LL FIND A TITANIC SELECTIO N OF KIRBY CO NTEST Q UESTIO NS! JOT DOWN YOUR ANSWERS ON A PO STCARD AND LET WILLIE LUMPKIN BRING IT TO: KIRBY CO NTEST Q UESTIO NS 1812 PARK DRIVE, RALEIGH, NC 27605 OR E-MAIL TO: TWO MO RRO W@AO L.CO M OR FAX TO: 919-833-8023 IT’S SIMPLE AS THAT!

Kirby Contest

QUESTIONS Jack had a ‘Thing’ for creating characters with over-sized or malformed heads. Name five!

‘Cerebro’, a mutant-detection device, had its main screen on Prof. X’s desk, but was shown as an elaborate Kirby machine. Where did it first appear?

2. 3. 4. 6. 7.

Jack’s penciling speed is legendary, but it did cause some glitches. Once he produced a pin-up with two left feet. Where and who was it?

And a Torch with two left hands! On what cover?

What books did Jack draw himself into? (NOT as an intro or narrator) List three titles and numbers.

Jack’s pencil had a long memory. In a Silver Age Cap story, Golden Age foes Agent Axis and Fang show up. What’s wrong with that?

Living weeds, killer trees, and hungry flowers are Kirby trademarks. But where does “Electronically-controlled kelp” show up? (HINT: A page from the story is in this issue!)

The cover of Avengers #35 has an obviously pasted-up stat of a Kirby Cap figure on it. Where is that art lifted from?

DO N’T FO RGET! EVERYO NE WHO ENTERS WILL RECEIVE AN O FFICIAL TJKC “SO MEPRIZE!” WHAT IS IT?! ENTER AND FIND O UT!!

NYAAH!!

Big Bonus

BONANZA! 9. Match The Kirby Kreature With His/Its Description: 1. SPOOR 2. DRAGOOM 3. TABOO 4. GLOB 5. LO-KARR 6. GLOP 7. MANOO 8. IT 9. MOOMBA 10. OOG 11. GRUTO 12. GIGANTUS

A. Giant hairy beast B. Giant orange plastic brute C. Giant cat/ewok hybrid D. Giant sludge-like creature E. Giant space creature on Easter Island F. Giant tentacled octopus with big eyes G. Giant pink big-headed alien H. Giant green space ape I. Giant lump of glob J. Giant orange-skinned man/fish hybrid... with torn purple trunks! K. Giant flaming humanoid L. Giant glop of putrescent ooze

DO N’T DELAY! DEADLINE: MARCH 20, 1999 THE PERSO N WITH THE MO ST CO RRECT ANSWERS WINS O UR GRAND PRIZE! FIRST, SECO ND, AND THIRD PRIZES GO TO THE PEO PLE WITH THE NEXT HIGHEST NUMBER O F CO RRECT ANSWERS! (IN THE EVENT O F A TIE, WE’LL DRAW NAMES FRO M UNCLE GIVEAWAY’S HAT!) EVERYO NE WINS SO METHING! THE DECISIO N O F THE JUDGES IS FINAL (EVEN IF IT’S WRO NG), AND NO BRIBES WILL BE RETURNED!

Jack Davis, John Prentice, Andy Warhol (in his early days), Frank Frazetta, and many others. Around 1966, a new show was to air on NBC called Captain Nice. This show, like most all other shows in prime time television, was produced by other companies and sold to the network. My father’s job (among others) was to advertise in the aforementioned media for all new and current shows. That’s where I came in! Mr. Graham’s adolescent son Bruce (that’s me!) was always showing his dad all the new Marvel and DC comics because his son supremely admired the artists in these publications and collected to obsession all the comic books of his favorite artists. (He even bought two or three of the same issues at a time. He also wanted to be a comic book artist and attended the High School of Art & Design— but that’s another story.)

A Nice Story by Bruce Graham y late father, John J. Graham, was the Director of Design of the NBC television network from the 1940s to 1976. He was responsible for advertising and the “look” of the network in that era. He created many of the NBC logos including the NBC “snake” and the NBC peacock. In those days, illustration artists were widely used for television, magazine, and newspaper ads. My father was the one who hired these artists for NBC. Among those he used, that I know of, are James Bama,

One of those favorite artists was Jack Kirby (of course), so my father had a lot of exposure to his work through me (I’m really very sure about this!), and when a show like Captain Nice came up—well, ’Nuff Said! Jack was the obvious choice as the Illustration Artist to do the artwork for the ads. As I remember it, the Captain Nice picture shown on the back cover of TJKC #21 was used in an animated fashion, i.e. with a close-up camera on the art as it was moved around, and with sound effects and voiceover. The commercial was used quite extensively on national television. Also used in that commercial was a color picture of three cops in a window with guns (shown at left) done by Mr. Kirby in the same style. I also remember meeting Mr. Kirby. My father called me to his office one day and told me that Jack would be there (they were going over the Captain Nice final ad), and asked if I would like to meet him. Of course I went, and met Jack (I was beside myself!), and that’s when he gave me the pencil sketch shown here, signed to me, “To my pal Bruce—Best Wishes, Jack Kirby.” WOW! Pretty cool to show at art school for a 14-year-old kid!★

(left) Chic Stone inked this piece, and Jack watercolored it. Bruce’s dad was also involved in Jack’s proposed NBC television show concept Tiger 21. We’ll have full details on this next issue. Our thanks to Bruce for sharing this material with us. 13

Kirby portrait by Zak Villers.

Kirby Fan Art Artistic submissions from TJKC readers Actually, to call this collection “fan” art is not doing it justice. Many of the represented artists are working professionals (some in the comics community), and we thank all of them for taking time to put pen to paper and create these wonderful drawings for us. We’ll run more fan art in our upcoming “Kirby Influence” issue, so start drawing! (above) Fantastic Four by Gene Fama. (bottom) Doodles by Bill Goodwin.

(left) Jerry Boyd’s “wish list” issue of New Gods. (right) Tom Doyle’s version of a Kirbyesque super-patriot. (lower left) A tribute to Jack, by Cary Getchell. (lower right) Fantastic Four by Craig Kercheval.

(above) Stephano Pavan’s view of the wedding of Reed and Sue. (below) Chris Tamura’s Kirby tribute. (right) Mike Page’s inks over Kirby.

(above) Gordon Robson’s version of the FF #20 cover pencils we ran in TJKC #9. (left) Sylvain Delzant’s pencils (top), and as inked by Marvel Comics inker Tom Palmer. After seeing this, we’ll definitely try to get Tom to ink a TJKC cover! (right) A Kirby cartoon by Michal Jacot.

Car & Driver (In which we learn why Jimmy Olsen’s Whiz Wagon, although a brilliant invention, didn’t last very long) by Robert L. Bryant Jr.

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galaxy-sized concepts to those minute, slo-mo panel sequences he loved so much. And all those years later it still felt weird. Again I say “felt.” Jack’s comics don’t look real, but they feel real, which is your take-home-pay long after your Mom throws out the book. About this time I was writing and editing for the UCLA Daily Bruin and I gave myself the assignment of writing a series of interviews with cartoonists. I landed Will Eisner, Chuck Jones, and Milt Caniff. I wanted a fourth, so I started shelling Mark Evanier with phone calls. To get rid of me, Mark arranged some time with Jack. Half of that conversation still exists on tape, which you have here. Back then I thought, if I have a chance to talk to

Jack Kirby Interview Interviewed by Ben Schwartz on December 4th, 1987 Originally published in the UCLA Daily Bruin on January 22, 1988

(Ben Schwartz comments: Maybe The Jack Kirby Collector isn’t the place to say it, but Jack creeped me out. Upon reading my first Jack Kirby comic, Mister Miracle #18, a friend and I—John Francis Moore, a current comics writer—had identical reactions. Decades before we ever met—me in Kenosha, WI, John in Huntington Beach, CA—our respective seven- and nine-year-old minds wrapped around Mister Miracle’s last issue and we thought: What IS this? Who are all these characters? Who is Vermin Vundabar, and that dwarf, and that huge woman Barda? And worst of all, Granny Goodness, who still ranks in my opinion as the most frightening character ever created in comics? And why was it the last issue? Superman, Richie Rich, Archie—they never had last issues. And that big stone guy at the end, Darkseid, laughing in that endless, awful way over a joke only he got—it was crazy. To us, everything about Mister Miracle #18 seemed dark, elusive, and confusing. What is this? Like I said, Jack creeped me out. It happened again. The next year, age 8, my asthma kept me home from school and my Mom bought me a “Mighty Thor” Treasury Edition, which reprints Thor’s epic battle with Hercules and Pluto (over-sized comics still kick ass, by the way). Pluto appears as a Hollywood producer who forces Thor down an infinity stairway to Hades. His face twists into an evil leer and it felt— felt—expansive, confident, brilliant. It made me afraid; so much so that I had to put down the book and wait till bedtime to finish it (a mistake—the nightmares!); and at the end, the villains beaten and the day saved, Thor just sat on a rock out in the middle of the ocean, a lonely, bummed-out Thunder God. Huh? This is a happy ending? Superman never sat on rocks. Batman and Robin swung off into the night, case closed, Joker in jail. And Richie Rich—well, he was still rich. Again, I thought, what is this? Yeah, Jack creeped me out. By the time I got to college I had pretty much written super-heroes off (and still do), but I started looking through Kirby reprints. I loved his oddly shaped characters. I saw the boldness of his original concepts as opposed to the ninety-ninth generation of them the publishers hacked out that month. I hunted up Mister Miracle #18. And instead of Jack overwhelming me, I grooved on just how big the guy thought, the power he packed into his panels, and how he lept from Jack cut the Barda face out of this xerox from Mister Miracle #5 to restore the one Mike Royer altered while inking. 19

that still left him speechless some forty-three years later. That’s on the tape, too. And when Jack tried to describe the horror, trying to find words that still wouldn’t come, I felt seven again. It creeped me out. Jack, too, I’d guess. But right then I knew I’d found what I’d come for, to find out what shaped the man, and how he put into pictures what he couldn’t put into words. But then Jack would shift gears, telling me how funny the war was, like Gen. Patton, furious at seeing Jack alive, or Marlene Dietrich singing to Jack while Nazi shells dropped around their ears. Jack laughed at this, this comedy in the middle of tragedy—and suddenly I knew just what Darkseid was laughing at in his awful way. Jack had seen the big joke, the kind only the gods get—and that really creeped me out. The tape opens with me, still obsessed with Thor, trying to pin Jack down on how he composed the panels for the battle with Hercules. Why is everything symmetrical? Why is good seen as the equal of evil? Why, why, why? And then, Jack told me. JACK KIRBY: It’s not my intention to do great art. It’s my intention to do great story. And whatever effect I’m trying to get has to come across. It’s just my own way of working. I feel that if I’m telling an effective story, which is my job, I’ll sell the magazine—and of course, that’s also my intention. BEN SCHWARTZ: You talk about not wanting to do “great art,” but you have Thor battling Hercules, and you wanted to show them as equals. All these panels are symmetrical, balanced. JACK: I designed ’em, believe me. The pages are made so that they don’t clash with the reader’s vision. So you’ll find that they’re balanced. BEN: Well, as far as this issue goes, it just struck me that you were dealing with two characters, equals, good and evil, and you have it all expressed through the art, the images. JACK: Yes, and believe me, balance is involved. Balance, design, nothing that would clash with the eye. ROZ KIRBY: Nowadays in comic books they break the panels up in all such crazy ways. Have you see them? Kirby’s original, unused cover to Thor #141.

JACK: Well nowadays you can’t follow continuity.

Jack Kirby, what I want to know is how he became Jack Kirby. By that I mean, what does a guy have to go through to come up with comics so disturbing, dark, and wild that I was too scared to read them? On meeting Jack, I immediately told him about that scare. “Oh,” he said, suddenly contrite, “I’m sorry. Really.” I reassured him that an apology wasn’t what I had come for; but that scare is what our conversation turned on, since, as you’ll see, it’s almost entirely about Jack’s lifelong experience dealing with evil—real evil. From the violent slums of the Lower East to the Third Reich to the Marvel Age, Jack saw evil in so many forms. He told me he could draw these things because he knew them. Jokingly, I asked if that meant he ever knew a guy like Pluto. “Oh yeah,” Jack laughed. “Oh, I knew ’em. Believe me.” I laughed, too, but I knew then—Jack meant it. He had seen that evil. He had marched through Normandy days after D-Day while Allied casualties (whole or in pieces) still lay dead on the beach, an experience

ROZ: Yeah, it’s very difficult. BEN: Actually, the guy who does that well is Howard Chaykin. JACK: Well, he has his own style and Chaykin tells a story his own way—but I get a lot of the new books and I notice that some of the guys go a little too far out, where you really have to work to follow the story; and symbolism—I didn’t put in that much symbolism. I happen to know people—and I just put people down as I knew ’em—and villains would do the same things I knew villains would do. BEN: So you knew someone like Pluto? JACK: [laughs] Oh yeah. Oh, I knew ’em. Believe me. BEN: Well, people talk about how fast you are as a penciler, so when 20

you’re working as fast you do—I mean, is the idea to show these two as equals, with that balance?

stories. I wrote the plots. I did the drawings—I did the entire thing because nobody else could do it. They didn’t know how to do it or want to do it and they didn’t give a damn. They were taking money they invested in the magazines and putting it in something else. But I made a living off that. So I put out magazines that sold. I made sure they sold.

JACK: Sure. BEN: Okay. Then to do it that fast, did it just happen as you drew it? JACK: No. My idea was that there is just as much strength in evil as there is in love, see? And that’s why evil is such a danger—the fact that it is so strong—and so I would try to portray it that way.

BEN: I’ve heard stories where an artist would watch a publisher tear up his pages if he didn’t like him. JACK: Sure!

BEN: Is that why The New Gods is about balance, too? You have Orion and the New Gods in New Genesis and then Darkseid—

BEN: And that amazed me. Because you think this is America, right? This shouldn’t happen here.

JACK: Orion and The New Gods is an allegory, really. And the New Gods are just a continuation of the old gods. [In] the old gods, Loki was an evil god. Thor was a good god, a god of virtues. But not only as an allegory, I had Thor as a human being, examining himself saying: “Here I am, I’m supposed to be a great guy, right? Why do I kill people?”

JACK: Well, I’m telling you about an altogether different generation— a generation that did that. A generation that would take guys at the newspapers, telling a great story one day, and the next day they’d throw him out on his pants. You know, they’d just throw him out the door. And people were like that. So, they don’t do that anymore. I think they’ve more or less grown up—and I thank God for that. I thank God that we can all sit and reason with each other.

BEN: Yeah, that’s the last panel here [Thor again] where he’s sort of asking, “What good is it to be a god if you have to temper it?” JACK: Of course, of course, and that’s his problem. Loki finds no problem with that, see? In other words he’s an arrogant type, see? He says, “As long as I’ve got this power and I’m born with it, what am I supposed to do— waste it?”

BEN: So you think the industry has improved?

BEN: There are a lot of consistent ideas in your books, like the use of power. JACK: Yes. BEN: When was it that you first became conscious of these themes? JACK: Well, just working in the comics field you can feel the pushes and pulls of power. In other words, the publisher was the All Power. In order to stay working you had to work along the publisher’s guidelines or else you’d put out a magazine for yourself, which you couldn’t do. In my day money was hard to come by, so risking money was a very hazardous task. So we stayed within the editor’s guidelines—but my sales were very effective so the publisher couldn’t argue much with me, see? So I had an easier time of it than the average guy. BEN: Yeah, in the last ten years comics have changed where you’ll have someone like John Byrne making hundreds of thousands of dollars. JACK: Oh, sure. BEN: And he has all this power to do whatever he wants. But for someone like you in your era, was it much different then? JACK: Yes. Because I took a beating for John Byrne. It was in my generation that the publisher came to learn that sales depended on how you treated the artist. I mean, if he was really good—and that no idea was really a bad one. You gotta give an idea a chance to grow. And I did that with the Marvel books. I wrote the

Unfinished Mister Miracle #3 page. 21

JACK: Well, the Marvel version is that the Marvel outfit will give credit to nobody except Stanley, see? Stanley’s one of the family, okay? And he’s the kind of a guy who’ll accept it. Stan Lee put his name all over the magazines. “Stan Lee presents” and “Stan Lee this” and “Stan Lee that.” And there’s nothing you could do about it because he was the publisher’s cousin and if you wanted to sell, that’s how you sold. BEN: Why has it taken so long? JACK: Because, well, people are contrary, you know? Why they want to do that, I don’t know—but it’s the truth; it’s the God’s honest truth—and it has a lot to do with family. It has a lot to do with family recalcitrance—and that’s a real fight. BEN: Well, but there’s still a lot of artists who don’t like working for a company like Marvel because of your case or just that if you create good work, it’s owned by the company. JACK: Well, there’s money involved, too. Marvel pays good money. Let’s not forget the fact that people—and I don’t blame them at all—if they come up with a good story, they’ll get more money. And that’s what the country’s all about. ROZ: What he’s saying is that a lot of people don’t want to work for Marvel at all. JACK: Well, if there’s a lot of people that don’t want to work for Marvel, well, they’ve got management up there that’s contrary to their liking. My opinion is that there’s an arrogance up there that has to be broken. BEN: Yeah, it’s amazing the things you hear about Jim Shooter. JACK: Yeah, well, he isn’t that big there anymore anyway. It doesn’t matter. Pretentiousness doesn’t matter because it can be broken in one day. Shooter used to walk around like he was the King of England. ROZ: Jack, you don’t want to get into any of that right now. JACK: Okay. BEN: Well, let’s go back to this theme of power which runs all through your work. What I meant was, did you ever become (these pages) Pencils from Fantastic Four #97, near the end of Jack’s collaboration with Stan Lee. conscious of it? Was there ever a point where JACK: I think it’s gone in a lot of different directions, and that’s good you just said, “Hmm, it seems to be something I’m concerned with.”? because I think the industry is exploring, see? It’s exploring. It’s no JACK: Oh, you mean analyze myself? No, no, I never analyze myself. I longer confrontational. It’s trying to really make for good stories and never stop to—I knew myself very, very well. And my generation was I think that’s constructive. entirely different than yours. I’m sure if you asked your dad about his BEN: In the last two or three years people have finally come out and generation he would know more about me than you. And it was a said you were the prime voice at Marvel. But the Marvel version has confrontational generation. It was a rambunctious generation. It was always been that you and Stan Lee did it, or these were all his ideas. a brutal generation, but it had no traumas, see? Now, I was in World War II. I never got a trauma, see? I just did my job. In other words, it 22

was a Do-Your-Job generation—and in civilian life you bring home the money because your mom needs it. In the Vietnam thing it was different. I often tell my wife how hard I sweated it out for my son so he wouldn’t go to Vietnam. I didn’t like that war. I thought it was crazy. And of course, that had an effect on a generation of young people that just couldn’t understand it. They couldn’t handle it; and they still have trouble today. They couldn’t do a Thor, see? And they wouldn’t want to. They would lay off it, see? They might do a, well, some kind of moralistic play, but they would never do a war story. My generation, all they knew was war.

son is a wonderful guy. I’m sure you’re a wonderful guy. And certainly a young fellow who is intelligent and can handle life as it is his way— you know what you like and what you dislike—and whatever you do like or dislike, makes more sense than mine, see? Because the things that I liked and disliked, they’re all gone, see? So I just sit back and absorb life, make the most of it, of this kind of thing, and feel that I and your father and people of our age brought this about. But these were

BEN: Yeah, in Will Eisner’s The Dreamer he has a character based on you [“Jack King”]. He said that you grew up in a tough neighborhood and had been to World War II, and these were the things that had been impressed upon you and your work. JACK: It’s not a matter of being impressed upon you; those are the things you live with, see? You’re walking down the street and you’re figuring out how to beat up five guys. Now I’m not talking about four guys, I’m talking about five guys. Now how do you do that—see? And you walk around the street and you try to figure it out. And sure, you can get the hell beat out of you, and you usually do, but that’s the way things are. Now, Eisner himself is not a confrontational character. Eisner is an intellectual, okay? You would never find Will Eisner in a street fight. It’s beneath him. He isn’t that kind of a guy. [laughs] And of course he’s a wonderful guy, because if there’s any kind of knowledge to be had, Will knows it. I’ve always admired him for that because he’s got that kind of make-up. Will is a guy who you can reason with. He can reason with others. His kind of stories are what human beings should be like. My kind of stories are human beings as they are, see? Now I remember one scene I had Dr. Doom; you knew he was going to kill the heroes, but he sits them down and gives them a nice dinner first—you know, what has he got to lose? He’s superior, see? He’s arrogant—and he’s got them at a disadvantage, so what’s he got to lose by giving them a good dinner? BEN: I never had to worry about beating up five guys. It’s completely different from the way I grew up. JACK: Yes. Thank God. Your generation is what my generation was looking for, see, but could never find. If we did anything good at all, it was your generation. Because my 23

the actualities; and comics were the same way.

JACK: Yes. Because they have to be arresting and if they’re arresting in some manner, if suddenly somebody stops and says, “What’s this all about?”, somehow the style of drawing holds them—and after he gets a close look at it he’ll read some of the dialogue, and in the final analysis, he’s the one that tells you whether you’re good or you need improvement.

BEN: But even though things changed to where we’re more analytical today, do you think the basic kinds of stories in comics have changed? JACK: Sure they have. I get comics from various people on a regular basis and I watch the trends and they’re very interesting and they’re good storytelling. Except they tell a different type of story than I do. And of course, that’s good, it makes us all individuals. I’m certain that whatever you write is your own honest view and that’s all you can give, really. And if you’re a storyteller, well, you take that view and you make it interesting.

BEN: Is it true you tried to make your stories as much like a movie as you could? JACK: Yes. I’m a movie person essentially. I’ve been going to the movies since I was a little boy. So I’ve been brought up on them and this was the next best thing to movies.

BEN: Why was it comics that you wanted to tell stories in? What was it about the form that you liked so much?

BEN: Are there any particular directors who influenced you?

JACK: Well, it’s a storytelling form in the first place. And you can begin a comic and end a comic without spending huge sums of money. And you get paid for it besides, [laughs] whereas if I wanted to make a movie, I could tell a better story, a more visual story, and a more realistic story and earn lots more money—but that was harder to do. Certainly if you’re a young fella on the East Side of New York you’re not gonna go out to Hollywood—well, [laughs] I wanted to go, but my mother wouldn’t let me—so I had to do the best I could. The best way I could tell a story was through a comic. And I would attract the reader just like a movie would. I would make the kind of a cover that would pull his attention. You could see my covers hanging from a newsstand, when they had newsstands, you could see it a block away. I had my own particular style. I still do.

JACK: Any director that would make a good movie—that would impress me—was certainly my type of storyteller. I simply like a guy who does a good job. I see no prestige connected with any of this, see? In other words, whether you’re in a war or whether you’re in a studio or you’re in an auto mechanics shop, if you do a good, professional job, someone’s going to appreciate it. Someone’s going to love you. Someone’ll say, “You’re a great guy. Why? Because I enjoy your product.” I once had a mechanic fix my car—I lived on Long Island—and I drove that car out of the shop and that car drove like a dream; and when I gave it to him, it was really in bad condition. And so I had the time of my life just being at that steering wheel—and it didn’t matter if that guy was an artist or a great director. This guy had done a job that pleased me to no end. I loved him.

BEN: Is the visual side of comics the real interest for you?

BEN: When you say you don’t see prestige in this—?

The November 25, 1979 edition of the Black Hole comic strip, based on the Disney movie of the same name. Inks by Mike Royer. 24

JACK: No. I see professionalism. BEN: The Village Voice called your work a broad kind of Expressionism. Those things don’t really concern you then? JACK: No, they don’t. What comes out is your interpretation. What comes out is your opinion. I’ve already formed mine, see? I can tell you I don’t throw B.S. I’ll never do that to you. I’m never gonna contrive anything so that it comes out clever. BEN: I was impressed by how much you must have loved the medium because in the ’50s comics weren’t selling very well and it was difficult to get a job. Yet instead of going into advertising or anything else you stayed with comics. JACK: Yes. Joe Simon went into advertising. He said, “The hell with it.” And Joe was very good at advertising. Actually, that’s his medium. He did well. The only thing I knew best was comics and I went back to Marvel and Marvel was in very poor straits—all comics were in poor straits—and boy I can tell you, when I went into Marvel they were crying—and Stanley was going into the publisher and lock up that very afternoon and I convinced him not to do it. And of course I didn’t change things in one day; but I knew that in a couple of months I could do it. And that’s where all your Fantastic Fours come from. That’s where Thor comes from. I took anything powerful that could sell a magazine—and I did. BEN: Was that your intent? Milt Caniff told me that he felt his first job was to sell the newspaper. JACK: Of course. BEN: So when you went in there, you were thinking, “Well, if we do this, this, and this, we can really market it and sell it.” JACK: Oh, it’s more than that. Today they sell about 40,000 to 50,000 books. And I understand there are issues of DC that sell 100,000. And I can understand that, DC is a very good outfit. But in my day if I sold less than 500,000, I’d hang my head in shame. Captain America was selling 900,000 a month, and that’s a lot of magazines. An action-packed page from Captain America #103. It just proves that comic books don’t it was a good medium. And I think that’s what they should strive for attract any more than that. In my day they did; and not only that but now—their best. It isn’t enough to say, “I’m gonna create a new I used to see my own lawyer sitting and reading a comic book on the galaxy,” if you know what I mean. It’s enough to write one good book subway, okay? I saw Wall Streeters sitting on the subway in New York. and have 500,000 guys say, “Boy, that book is good.” That’s profesThey would be reading comic books—and I think it was because the sionalism, see? comic books were good. Aside from the fact that it was a new medium— 25

500,000. They haven’t got the power, they haven’t got the thinking that will get back that 500,000. They could do it today if they wanted. What in blazes is there to stop ’em, see? All it takes is good storytelling. But I think the genre today isn’t that steeped in storytelling. In other words, they want to make masterpieces of posing. Sensational drawings that just strike the eye. But that isn’t storytelling, see? That’s surrealism. ROZ: I think also TV has a lot to do with it and the prices of magazines. People can’t afford it now. TV has a lot to do with keeping people away from the books. JACK: That’s true. That’s the practical aspect of it. You know, a comic book sells for three dollars. Two more, you can go see a movie. So the choices are different today. Although I’m not saying that ten cents isn’t any money at all. Ten cents used to be a lot of money for a book—but I can tell you the stories were good. General Eisenhower read comic magazines. BEN: Really? JACK: Yeah. He read ’em ’cause they were good. They made good reading. And it was strictly an American medium. It began here. Superman is probably going to be the biggest classic of all time, like Robin Hood and all the things that’ll live on forever. Superman will probably live on forever. BEN: So you think the storytelling quality has fallen? JACK: I think it’s fallen because, well, there’s nothing that moves anybody. I see it in the general attitude of the people. BEN: It seems the big sellers today, like John Byrne, when I read his stories—and you don’t have to comment on this—they just fall apart. ROZ: (to Jack) Well, you haven’t read any of those books. JACK: I glance at those books. But I have a feeling that these guys don’t dream. They have no goal in mind. They have a goal in mind of making a pretty-looking comic book—pretty-looking comic books—and they are pretty. Every one of John Byrne’s books is a pretty book, it’s a handsome Pencils from Sandman #6. Note how Wally Wood changed things when he inked this page. book, but whatever else it is, I try to look BEN: What happened to the market then? for, and can’t find; but it never goes beyond that. I mean, everybody likes to look at a beautiful picture and John Byrne draws ’em—and if JACK: Well, the market grew up, really. And there were so many you like beautiful pictures, that’s fine. events happening that comics didn’t become the important— BEN: Lately I’ve been reading the Terry & the Pirates set NBM has out and that keeps me going through a story.

ROZ: You had Wertham at that time, too. JACK: Yeah, Wertham didn’t do it any good. You might have read about him.

JACK: Terry & the Pirates were real people. They were comic book characters certainly, but Terry & the Pirates reflects a really vital generation. In other words, what my generation had to do, we did, see? And thank God you people aren’t involved in that kind of urgency. In fact, you people were the whole damn cause for that urgency.

BEN: But when you go from 900,000 to 100,000 today, do you think it was things like TV that just soaked up that audience? JACK: No. No. I think they haven’t got the make-up to get back that 26

BEN: My generation?

JACK: It’s not only that, but this fellow Klinghoffer who you may have read about in the papers, he was killed by the Arabs. I was raised with him. Now, the Arabs had machine guns on him, right? He didn’t give a damn about the machine guns. He probably walked over and cursed ’em, told ’em not to push women and children around. Which is a terrible thing to do to my generation, see? And he reacted, and of course he suffered for it. So it’s something that you just can’t help doing.

JACK: Sure. Your generation is a wonderful thing to me because I always tried to find the point to the whole thing. For instance, during the war, I was with Patton. I was where the worst part of it was, okay? I wanted to know the meaning of that: “What the hell am I doing here?” And I find that the only point that I can see is the wonderful young people I see today.

BEN: My generation has had such a placid time compared to that.

BEN: When you talk about growing up in tough neighborhoods of New York, when you talk about the war, it sounds like you’ve had these experiences where—you know, I’ve been lucky to never have to worry about beating hell out of five guys.

JACK: Well, you have to make use of it if you have it, whatever it is, and that’s what your generation represents: A peaceful ability to think things out. Boy, you’ve got the best opportunity in the world. BEN: But dull stories. JACK: Oh, but you can come up with terrific stories and that’s what you should do. Here is a world at peace and there’s never gonna be any war, and you’ve got the opportunity to say, you know, “What the heck are we, really?” And go into it with all the depth that you want. And that’s the opportunity you have. BEN: But the stuff I see today, it’s almost like they had some psychologist or marketing person come in and say, “14-year-old boys like this and this and this,” so I keep seeing the same comic over and over again. JACK: That’s too bad. They should go for a lot of the older readers. And that’s what we did in the old comics because we never told lies. BEN: What do you mean, “told lies”? JACK: Well, what I mean by lies is fantasy to a fault. Even life to a fault. It doesn’t have to be dreary. We got it, it was given to us, let’s have a great time with it. A lot of guys don’t. A lot of guys say, “Well, life has such miserable points,” and they carry on that misery or they’ll take—I dunno—an appendicitis operation and say, “Boy, that’s great stuff,” and they’ll lay it right in your lap and do something repulsive that you don’t want to see. You’re glad to leave it to a doctor. I think their interpretation of life is doing it exactly, when you don’t have to. And you don’t have to fantasize about it and you don’t have to lay it in anybody’s lap. And the thing to do is to take the good parts of it and show people how good it can really be. Well, the good you get out of doing this, or the foolishness of doing something that can hurt others. I mean, there are substitutes for the really good and evil confrontations that we used to have. There were guys that were openly evil. I mean, Hitler’s evil was incontestable. Sending millions of people into the ovens, tell me something worse than that—and it really happened—so, that’s what we had to contend with because it was gonna happen over here; but you don’t have to contend with things like that. BEN: Yeah, with hindsight I can look at history books and say, “Hitler, Stalin, these

Jimmy Olsen #139, page 2 pencils. 27

anything good, except his own son. As evil as Darkseid is, he could never hurt Orion. They always threatened to come to a clash, but a father can’t do that. A good father can’t hurt his own son. And the son can’t hurt a father—maybe, it’s possible, but I went according to human nature, from the human nature I observed; and I did it symbolically. I did it with the gods. BEN: When you say from what you’ve “observed”— JACK: Yeah, well, my stuff is real because it is real. BEN: Well, from what you’ve seen then until now, do you think that much has changed with people? JACK: Yes. And for the better. My personal view is that there’s no way back, see? And so we have to take these times that are good to us and use them as well as we can for the people who come in the future. I mean, the Bomb has given us no way back. So we’ve got to stop there and say, “We can’t fight. There can’t be any fighting between governments. There’s gotta be compromises.” And that’s intelligent. Maybe the bomb has done us a favor where we can reason with each other. Where guys can’t come up with schemes like Hitler without getting locked up, see? I mean if Hitler came up with that scheme today, they’d lock him up. The only ones we have to be afraid of are people with ignorance: People whose culture is different than ours who don’t understand us, or we can’t understand them—and so we have to get to know each other. BEN: Have you ever expressed political views in comics? JACK: I’ve never done that and I never will. I’m not an ideologue. All I know is what’s harmful and what isn’t harmful. For instance, oh, I was one of the first in the comics that was anti-Nazi. But I was reading about what the Nazis were doing. They were beating up thousands of people on the streets and dragging them around and doing awful stuff—I mean to women and children, too. You wouldn’t have believed this. I mean, I didn’t believe it. But they were doing it. And here they were, right in America, and they used to call me up by phone, you know, “We’ll wait for you downstairs, we’ll beat the bejabbers outta ya.” (laughs) And they were a very real threat. (these pages) Demon #1 cover pencils and inks. Note Jack’s “Fourth World” reference above. were the bad guys.”

BEN: Because of the comics you were doing or just because you’re Jewish?

JACK: No, they weren’t the “bad guys”; the people who followed them were just as bad. And they were just as eager to do it. Humanity has... well, that’s why I created Darkseid, because humanity does have a dark side to it. And you can’t get weighed [down] in that, so I think there is good and evil, we all make a choice—and the guys that choose the evil part, they have it reversed in their own way, it can hurt real bad. So it’s up to the writer to symbolize it in some way.

JACK: No, I put Hitler on the cover! I had the Boy Commandos saying, “Let’s give Hitler the bum’s rush!” Oh, and I did a terrible thing because I did that to Adolf Hitler. (laughs) So, sure, if you’re in a situation like that you catch a little flak; but you either do it or you don’t do it—and you gotta measure yourself.

BEN: You didn’t invent the super-hero, but you certainly shaped it. You moved it through stages from the original heroes up to the cosmic level with the New Gods, I guess starting with Thor.

JACK: Yes. Now I portrayed ’em as I saw ’em, and they made good stories because people say, “Yeah, that’s what I would do” or “That’s what my neighbor would do.” And they would be real people. And that’s what I asked myself: “What would Doctor Doom do?” And what I put down is what Dr. Doom would really do, if he had the power.

BEN: So it was always your intent to show things as you saw them, as opposed to Will Eisner, who drew things as he’d like to see them.

JACK: Yeah, I began to explore people as people—and in The New Gods I did it in that fashion. Darkseid, of course, was irrevocably lost to 28

BEN: In the past, you’ve mentioned writers like Robert Louis Stevenson and Jack London as favorites. Have they been important to your work? Stevenson’s Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde obviously influenced The Hulk.

wanted to show a crowd and so in order to show this crowd I couldn’t jam them all into one panel so I filled up two pages. Of course doublespreads didn’t always have crowds but they made a large point. I did that in Captain America around ’41. That goes way back.

JACK: Sure. Those writers were good writers. They were professionals and men who knew the craft—and of course they could write about a thing like the Hulk as well as I or anybody could and maybe see some insights that I couldn’t. I still feel there’s a Hulk inside of all of us. I mean, a suddenly unreasoning, explosive personality. And of course the police stations are full of these guys. (laughs) And I don’t write about them in that respect, but we have a Hulk inside us. Like I just told a guy, I once tore a tie rack right off the wall, see? Because I was just suddenly in an explosive burst of temper. I saw an article where a woman lifted the back of a Cadillac because her little kid was trapped under the tire. We can do feats of strength that would amaze us: Bend steel.

BEN: Will Eisner wrote in his Comics and Sequential Art that he would try to create those effects with, say, the size of a panel. JACK: Well, Will has a continual feeling in his comics and his approach to things is different than mine. His isn’t push and shove. You’ll notice that Eisner’s comics proceed at a very even pace and have a wonderfully rhythmic pace, which is Eisner’s style. And you’ll notice that it’s also Will Eisner’s make-up—he’s a wonderful guy. You can see that he’s even-tempered and just willing to elucidate on anything—and he can—so you see that reflected in his drawing.

BEN: Is that the way you’d approach characters? To have them personify an emotion or a feeling? JACK: Yes. Yes. BEN: When you talk about stories you talk about yourself more like a writer than an artist. Is that how you see yourself? JACK: Yes, I am a writer. I write quite well. In fact, I’ve been working on a novel I’ve been trying to finish. ROZ: For fifteen years. More. JACK: [laughs] And it’s just the way it is, I like to write. I’ve been writing all along and I’ve been doing it with pictures. And if you’ll watch my characters, they’re very human. And they don’t need words to describe how they feel—what I’ve done was cut all that out by making the characters act. So you can see how they actually feel and how they put things together, how they see things. BEN: Yes, unlike a lot of writers today, your dialogue, say, in The New Gods, is often very basic. Shorter. Is visual storytelling what you wanted? JACK: Sure. A lot of it is visual. The fact that I had Orion sit there and examine himself— if you remember one of those stories—and he sat down and examined himself and he had his moment of pause; I think that was a good thing. It meant he had some value to himself. How valuable am I? What kind of a person am I? And he found that he could have some value. BEN: As for expressing yourself visually, there are ways you pose the characters, or angles that you choose—there was an issue of Stuntman comics where he first puts on the outfit and you use this up-angle to make him more impressive. Were you developing a visual language this way? JACK: Yes. Yes, and once you decide the thing it was—if it was awesome, I would try to make it look awesome. If there was a brief pause, and the story really needed it, you could actually feel that pause in the picture. In fact, you’ll find that I was the first one to give you a double spread because I thought that it needed it. I 29

BEN: So you were working in comics when you were about twenty?

back home.

JACK: Well, it was a lot earlier, but professionally, I was around twenty. I just wanted to do it.

JACK: (laughs) More or less. I just took up where I left off when I got home. ROZ: You used to draw some comics while you were in the service, too.

BEN: You once said that Milton Caniff was your art school—how did you mean that? Do you see him as a direct influence on your work?

JACK: Yeah, I did two covers in the service. BEN: How long were you in the service?

JACK: Well, I think one man is always the art school for the other. You don’t necessarily have to admire Caniff or myself. You can admire John Byrne and see something of his style that would help your own, ’cause a John Byrne is a fine artist. So it depends on whom you’re drawn to. BEN: Well, I know Caniff ’s layouts influenced Orson Welles and Hitchcock in their set-up shots. Did you mean that sort of thing, or his feel for characters? JACK: Oh, Caniff was like my teacher. I loved his shading. I loved his kind of people. I think Caniff kind of softened me, and made me a lot more tolerant; and when I became a little more tolerant I think I was able to see people in a more even light. I wasn’t combative or contentious, and I was able to deal with people on a constructive level. Caniff, in a way, was an adult, and I was an adolescent—and that was the difference. And so from learning from this adult I think I got the elements of adulthood into my own make-up. BEN: He does such powerful stuff. Sixty years later it still comes right off the page. You have that same quality. JACK: Well, my stuff, I want to take the raw materials and make it as alive as possible. Because what I’m doing is just taking life as it really is. BEN: How fast were you? How fast could you draw a whole book? JACK: I was the fastest man in the field. I did about three, three-and-a-half pages a day. ROZ: In the beginning you did more. JACK: In the beginning I did six. BEN: Really? And inking? JACK: No, penciling. I gave the inking to whoever we had. BEN: I’d heard that you had such a backlog of pages that when you went into the service they’d just started to run out when you got

(these pages) Our Fighting Forces #159 pencils, featuring one of Jack’s true war stories. 30

JACK: About two years. BEN: You were with Patton? JACK: Yeah, I saw combat. I did two war stories for DC, but they were both real. They had elements of some of my experiences. BEN: What is combat like? JACK: It’s scary as hell. I did one story called “The Apartment,” which was real. And you could see the Germans running across the roof of the apartment house. And I walked down streets I never dreamed of walking. I mean, coming from New York City, the Lower East Side— here I am walking down the streets of an empty French village; cobblestone streets and looking in the stores and the German S.S. is coming around the block. Well, war is a thing between human beings, too. It isn’t just me fighting Hitler or anything like that, a comic book story. It’s a real story and these are real guys. And let’s face it, you’re not there to play golf. Just talk to anybody that’s been to Vietnam. They weren’t playing golf. But it wasn’t exactly culture shock because there were guys fighting the Japanese, who they knew nothing about. The Japanese and Orientals were mysterious to us. Considering the communications we had then, every Chinese that we knew was Fu Manchu, [who] is a mysterious person. But we didn’t see them as you and I—but here I was with Europeans, and the only thing different was the accents. And they were just guys, and we’d cuss each other out and go through all kinds of crazy episodes. BEN: Were you with Patton when he was in Africa? JACK: No, no. I landed at Normandy and from Normandy we went straight across France to Metz. BEN: Did you land on June 6th, D-Day? JACK: No, no, I wasn’t in the invasion. I was there about ten days later, and the bodies were still there. They didn’t clean it up. It looked like a mess. And we went across France. Needless to say, there was a lot of... a lot of... it was a mess. And there we were, just guys, and we weren’t doing a movie or anything.

suddenly realize one has to kill the other, because they have to rescue a general. BEN: It sounds like what pilots from WWI say, because there was a small community of pilots and when they were in combat—. JACK: Sure, they knew each other. And they knew each other’s planes and they could do everything but yell at each other. And so it was the same way with the Germans and us. And when it comes down to it, they’re just guys. They’re not the evil, preying Nazis that you see in the movies. They were our age and all we could say was, “Screw you and screw you and blow it out your ass” and things like that. But what else could you say?

BEN: Did that change how you looked at things when you came back and the way you did fight scenes or combat scenes? JACK: No. It just confirmed my suspicions that we were just guys. And you’ll notice one of the two war stories I did, it was about an American and a German and they were in the Olympics together in ’36. Yet, after they meet in the forest, and after this greeting between them, they 31

BEN: Well, you were saying before, there was Hitler who was evil, but so were the people who were following him. And so when you got there did you see them as—? JACK: Oh, I was fighting the Hitler Jungen; the Hitler Youth. I was fighting guys who were raised up from children, 12 years old, 11 years old, and they were dyed-in-the-wool Nazis. They were little duplicates of Hitler. So when I got there they were 18 years old but these were dyed-in-the-wool Nazis. BEN: Did you look at them as Nazis then or “just guys”? JACK: Just guys. Yeah, I look at anybody as just a guy. I thought they were nuts. We beat each other up. We scared the heck out of each other. And war is like that. It’s scary and you scare the heck out of each other. You do crazy things. [Jack sees Roz smiling.] My wife thinks I’m going into the incident with the gun. This friend of mine, we were scouting, they’d sent us out as scouts and we bumped into the S.S. They come out about a hundred yards away. And so I dived into the bushes and this friend of mine stands out in the open. He’s a guy who owns a clothing store in Michigan now. And he’s standing there with an M-1, which is not a sniper rifle, and a hundred yards is an impossible distance to hit a guy, okay? About a hundred yards in a tank comes out of the bushes— Panther—and he stands out in the middle of the road like a jerk. And I says, ‘C’mon, get into the goddamn bushes.’ And he won’t do it, and he says, “Wait a minute, wait a minute...”. Now I’m talking about human beings now. I’m not talking about soldiers, and these are evil Nazis, and these are damn Yankees. I’m talking about guys. He’s standing out in the middle of the road and he aims at the tank and I said, ‘You’re crazy!’ I says, ‘C’mon in, they’ll blow the crap out of ya.’ So the turret of the tank begins to turn toward him and the guy with the machine gun up top is already taking a couple of test shots. And he stands there in the middle of the road with the rifle and the tank is moving toward us. Well, they’re gonna blow the sh*t out of us, there’s no doubt about that. He takes a shot and he gets the driver right through the slit, okay? And the tank stops dead. And there’s seven guys in the tank and the bullet ricochets like that and we hear the yellin’ inside the tank. And then he walks calmly into the bushes and says, “What the hell were you worried about?” (laughs) Now that’s a guy against a seven-ton tank, okay? Crazy. You say, “How could a guy do it?” By the very fact that he’s a guy. You never know what goes through a guy’s head. So, sure, if he hadn’t made that shot they would’ve blown him right out of the road.

are just guys?” JACK: Yeah. And he felt that he could do it. ROZ: You always said the S.S. were the worst. JACK: Well, yes, the S.S. was always the worst. Yeah, the S.S. would torture you and kill ya—and what got me sore about the S.S. was they said something about my mother once, which I didn’t like, and that got me sore. BEN: You were captured? JACK: They caught me at a hotel. I was goin’ through this hotel. I was an advance scout. There was nobody in the hotel. It was bombed out.

BEN: So that’s what you came out thinking? It all comes down to “these 32

and I still had my gun! They didn’t even have time to take it away. So I let go and they let go and there’s bullets flying all over the place—and we all ran off, cause that’s how guys are. And that’s how war is. BEN: Just going back a bit, it’s really interesting that at first you only saw them as Nazis, but then when you were actually in it—. JACK: Yeah, I found out they were guys. Once, I was laying there and they open up on us with machine guns. The bullets are flying all over and the earth is coming up and some guy crawls over to me and he says, “Grab three guys. There’s a truck waiting seven miles down.” He says, “Get into the truck and go see Marlene Dietrich.” And this is an offensive and the world is going up. There’s no world; it’s going up all around ya. And you’re scared sh*tless. And I says, ‘You’re outta your head.’ And he says, “Go ahead, do what I tell ya.” I says, ‘I’ll be glad to.’ I pick out three guys and I tell them and they don’t believe me and I start to crawl so they follow me. Then about a mile away we’re able to get up and walk and we see the truck already and we get up on the truck and the offensive is getting even worse. So the truck takes us to a church and they sit us down and we’re all sleeping in there in the goddamn benches. And in the middle of the church Marlene Dietrich comes out and I’m able to see her through one eye and she comes out in GI underwear and she’s doing a song and dance. And what happens is that the offensive gets even bigger. Seven miles away they’re now shelling the church, and they’re blowing up everything around us. And I never knew what the hell happened to Marlene Dietrich. She ran out, everybody ran out, and we went back to the line. I saw Bing Crosby, too. And I never lost respect for those performers because I never thought they’d come that close. And that was pretty goddamn close. You don’t realize how close that was. Because, well, thank God you’ve never heard a shell drop. They were 88s. They were big. It was that kind of a (these pages) Destroyer Duck #1 two-page spread. crazy thing. That can happen in war. And there’s six Nazis. And I sit down on the steps, it’s—well, I had to do Entertainers come down and entertain you, and you can make a story it. There’s six guys there and they start coming over to me and start out of that. I saw General Patton. Patton comes over and lines us up, calling me an idiot, a jerk, a this, and a that, and they said something three thousand guys. He lines us up and he looks at his map, and he about my mother. looks at us, and he says, “What the hell are you guys doin’ here?” and he says, “Why aren’t you guys dead? You guys are supposed to be ROZ: Of course they saw your tags. dead.” And he looks at his map there and he says, “What happened? JACK: Yeah, they said, “You’re Jewish?” They gave me the works, every Who screwed up? These guys are supposed to be dead!” And then he dirty name they could think of; and they got me sore cause they said gets sore and he walks away with all his officers including my colonel. something about my mother—and I blew up, see? What happened I think he demoted him cause we weren’t dead. In war, the generals [cracks up laughing] they were as scared sh*tless of me as I was of them— have their outlook. And it was that kind of crazy thing.★ 33

Page 7 pencils from Fantastic Four #49, showing some of Jack’s earliest work on the Silver Surfer.

A Failure To Communicate: Part Three by Mike Gartland (featuring Jack’s uninked pencils from Fantastic Four #49)

Rough Surfing n the last article in this series, we read how Galactus first appeared on the scene in Fantastic Four #48, and that after he left he wasn’t supposed to return for a very long time. Perhaps this was why, at the end of that story, a reminder of the mysteries of the Universe was left behind: The Silver Surfer. To Jack this was just another plot thread, to be picked up and used for future stories and adventures; he had no idea at the time of the importance of what he had created. Stan Lee, however, found out soon enough through fan response; the Surfer was sensational. The Surfer must rank among Kirby’s greatest creations; but believe it or not, Jack’s Surfer was short-lived, lasting about two-anda-half years. One must come to understand that there were actually two Surfers: The version Jack created and the one Lee “re-created.” Many are familiar with the often-repeated story of how Lee was presented with the penciled pages to FF #48, only to be surprised by the new character in the story. (Apparently when Jack discussed the plot with Stan he either neglected, or hadn’t yet thought of, the inclusion of the Surfer.) Roy Thomas was present when this occurred and it is he we have to thank for honestly relating a true story that Marvel historians can be sure of. Had Roy not been there and told the tale to readers, in my opinion the Surfer would have become yet another Kirby creation forever mired in the “co-created” ambiguousness associated with the “Lee/Kirby” creations. Jack’s Surfer can only be seen in issues of Fantastic Four.

(above) The Surfer drops in (literally) on Alicia in FF #49. (next page) The turning point of the Galactus Trilogy. 36

As the Surfer visits Alicia, the FF are devising a plan with the Watcher. Stan was very faithful to Jack’s plotting and margin notes throughout FF #49, but strayed more and more in subsequent stories involving the Surfer. 38

We first become aware of the nature of the character in FF #49, of which we are again fortunate to have copies of the undiluted pencils. The Surfer is “alien” in every respect, except for the obvious (and understandable) fact that he speaks English. He knows and understands nothing of the Earth or humanity other than they are to be absorbed for Galactus. His credo is “energy is all”; mankind is merely Organic Energy to be converted—to be used constructively or destructively. This was the basis for Jack’s Surfer: A creature of pure energy, formed for exploration and war. According to the Conservation of Energy Law: “Energy can be converted (changed in form), but it cannot be created nor destroyed”; hence the Surfer was “formed,” not created by Galactus, as an extension of the giant, most likely. In FF #49, we see Jack’s Surfer in his original function, converting everything around him into energy; and as we can see from Jack’s liner notes, had Alicia not reached something inside him in time, she too would have been converted—a little something left out of the published story. It was Jack’s original intention for the Surfer to enter mankind as a blank slate, absorbing a new lesson about the human condition with every subsequent adventure. This becomes obvious from the early FF/Surfer stories: In FF #49-50

he learns that life (any life) is precious. In FF #55, he learns about human emotions (through the Thing’s jealousy). In #57-61 he experiences human treachery. Each of these stories is a learning experience for the Surfer, and a reflection on us. Of course, Stan was on these stories with Jack, with much enthusiasm I might add. We see, according to the Nat Freedland article reprinted in TJKC #18, that Stan was already working out future Surfer-related plots with Jack while the artwork to FF #50 was still on the board, unpublished. Those plotting sessions became the basis for the story in #55, and somewhat touching on #57. Stan was enchanted with the character; he saw that fan response was so great that the Surfer had the potential to be a moneymaker for Marvel. Stan very much wanted to put out a book on the Surfer, especially while the character was hot. Unfortunately, due to publishing limitations put upon Marvel at the time, there was no room on the schedule; a book would have to wait, for now. The stories between FF #48 and 61 are peppered with either Surfer stories or cameos. It is with the Surfer’s return in issue #55 that Lee begins to have the Surfer espouse his philosophy to the masses. Using timeworn literary and Biblical cliches, the character becomes the comic book version of Billy Graham. Lee realized early on that fans reacted positively to the purity of the character; this made him a conduit to the young adult, college-age audience that was a vital part of Marvel’s readership at that time. It was also Kirby’s rendering of the Surfer as a noble majestic being that helps bring this dialogue off. After experiencing a plethora of human emotions and states, by issue #61—approximately a year after his first appearance—the Surfer turns his back on mankind; and Kirby, ever progressive, turns his back on the Surfer temporarily, while pursuing yet newer creations and adventures. Stan, through the fans, never gets too far away from the character and sees to it that the fans are kept satisfied with Surfer appearances, while at the same time being careful not to overexpose the character. Of course during this time fans just couldn’t get enough anyway. Approximately three months after FF #61, the Surfer makes his first appearance in a non-FF book. Stan writes him into a Hulk story in Tales to Astonish #92-93, drawn by Marie Severin. A few months after that, the Surfer gets his first solo story in the pages of FF Annual #5 in, perhaps, a testing of the waters towards a possible series. Stan was growing impatient about getting the Surfer his own book. By the time the Surfer reappears in FF #72, new avenues have opened up at Marvel. The company was changing hands and distribution was finally expanding. The characters who shared the Tales of Suspense, Tales to Astonish, and Strange Tales comics were being given their own books and new titles were finally being discussed for launching—the Surfer book probably among them. Jack wanted to be a part of the Surfer series; it must have stunned him to discover that the Surfer book was already being produced, with Stan writing the origin story and John Buscema as the series’ artist. Needless to say Jack was hurt; it wasn’t the first time and unfortunately, it wouldn’t be the last. Jack was preparing to put the

FF #74, page 1; the Thing gets jealous again. Surfer’s origin down himself, and the stories beginning with FF #72 probably would have led into it; now it would be lost to us forever. Some conjecture that Stan may have been keeping Jack off the book so he would have free rein to plot and write the character as he saw fit. A more practical reason may have been that, at the time, Jack was plotting and drawing three full books already: FF, Thor, and the newly-expanded Captain America. There was also an Inhumans book that Stan wanted produced, and since Stan obviously enjoyed writing the Surfer more, would’ve deferred the plotting of that book to Kirby. (Jack apparently had been penciled-in for a planned Inhumans book, which was teased to readers in a Bullpen page. One interesting question is whether, when Jack did the Inhumans stories that appear in the back of the Thor books, or for Amazing Adventures, were those pages planned for the new book?) In any event, Jack was annoyed; but with new bosses in the company— 39

fix this situation. It is evident from this example that, although the Kirby/Lee books were a collaborative effort, it was Kirby who was the driving force behind the team. Without Kirby, the books he and Lee pioneered were mediocre at best. It is also interesting to note that, after Kirby left Marvel, Lee lasted for about two years on the Lee/Kirby books—about the same time it took him to run out of ideas on the Surfer mag. It was decided Herb Trimpe would draw the book, after inking a lead-in story penciled by Jack. This is why the last issue (#18) sports a cover by Trimpe and not Kirby; one would think a Kirby cover would’ve attracted more readers. (The book was to be retitled The Savage Silver Surfer with #19; for the record, the decision to terminate before the Trimpe stories appeared was based on earlier sales, not on Jack’s one issue.) The fact was that Jack didn’t want to have anything to do with the book. It was ironically insulting and irritating to him to be called upon to help save the Surfer at this time. Jack knew he would be leaving Marvel soon and that this story would probably be one of his last. The last two pages of the story (above) FF #74, page 6. Kirby had the Torch hide the Surfer from Galactus. In the published book, there’s may, therefore, be very prophetic. The Surfer no mention of it. (below) Lee glossed over Jack’s “Cosmic Photon Shield” in FF #74. was fed up with man and Jack was fed up with Marvel; before he left his creation, they both and Jack, ever mindful of supporting his family—he didn’t rock the shared a catharsis. With this issue, the Surfer was left alone; Stan boat. In what was probably doubly disheartening, Stan apparently refused to let anyone else use the character for a long time. Others asked Jack to do the Surfer story that runs through FF #74-77, helping would eventually write the Surfer into guest appearances in various to kick off the new series. With two exceptions, after FF #77, Jack— books, but there would be no more Surfer stories, no more inspiration. for whatever reason—doesn’t draw the Surfer anywhere, anymore. The Surfer would remain in creative limbo while his “soul” was workStan’s take on the Surfer’s origins are almost directly opposite of ing at another company. what Jack had intended. Jack had the Surfer as an alien who progresBy 1978, Jack was back at Marvel, finishing up an unpleasant stay. sively learns to become human; Stan turns the story on its ear and has Unlike the Sixties, this time it only took Jack two years to get fed up. To the Surfer as a human who becomes an alien. True, Stan’s origin depicts complete his the Surfer as a being from another planet, but the character is human in contract with every other respect. In writing his origin, Stan throws away all the alien Marvel, he was aspects of the character that initially made him so appealing to readers; required to in fact, as early as FF #55, Stan, through dialogue, represents the Surfer submit a certain as a being with a silvery coating protecting his body, thereby implying amount of that he initially may not have always been as he appears. Upon learning pages in a given about Lee’s origin for the Surfer, Jack disavowed any relation to the time frame, and character. That wasn’t his Surfer, as far as he was concerned. he wanted to The Silver Surfer book was successful, but not for very long; after the complete that first issue or two sales began to drop. It appears that the stories were as quickly as originally intended to be standard 20-page editions, but with Martin possible. Once Goodman wanting to fill the racks with books of varying price points, the again the Surfer comic became a 25¢ forty-pager (the company was also experimenting helps his father with a black-&-white Spider-Man magazine-size comic at the time as out. Marvel well). This meant not only that a book was twice the price of a regular was touting the comic, but that standard stories had to be stretched out to twice as many character as a pages, and still hold the readers’ interest. Lee’s writing was well over-thesaleable comtop dramatically on this book—so much so that many readers were modity to the turned off. In making the character human, he became just another media. Hollyangst-ridden Lee super-hero. Although his message was sincere, readers wood responded didn’t care to see this once-noble character on his knees with his hands and a movie raised in supplication, crying and bemoaning his fate and man’s inhuproject was manity to man in every issue. Lee took his inspired messages from the announced. An Surfer/FF stories and beat them to death in the Surfer book. offer was made After several issues things were looking bleak for the Surfer mag. to Jack and Stan According to John Buscema in an interview in TJKC #18, Stan told him to re-unite on a he didn’t know what to do with the book anymore; he had lost the Surfer story. direction of the character. The direction of the Surfer always had been Jack decided to with his creator, Jack Kirby, and Stan would now call upon him to help 40

FF #76, page 14. Kirby takes the time to explain that Reed will section off the cabin of their craft so Ben can exit; Lee omits any reference to it. do the book because it was assured to him that the story he and Lee came up with would be copyrighted as theirs alone. Also Jack wanted to make sure his name stayed with his character and did not become “lost” (like it did when a movie poster featuring Captain America listed Lee as creator of the character). It also helped him meet his contractual obligations with Marvel, page-wise. If the book was successful, a possible adaptation of the story to the big screen might be considered; all of this really boiled down to Jack, once again, trying to earn the most he could for his family. Since the book was considFF #76, page 20. Kirby’s notes show he used the Surfer ered as a possible to get rid of the Indestructible, but Lee ignores this, vehicle for the and there is no explanation in the published book of movie, the story why the Indestructible disappears. was kept apart from the general continuity of the comics, with no references to other Surfer-related stories or characters. Jack submitted a fully-typewritten plot along with his pencils for Stan to dialogue. Stan wanted changes made and Jack balked, but as usual, grudgingly gave in. This is why the story reads unevenly and loses impact. This was the last time Kirby would work with Lee in comics; one need not wonder why. Jack once said in a published interview about why he stopped creating for Marvel: “When I would create something (ie. a character), they would take it away from me and I would lose all association with it.” It is ironic that of all the creations attributed to the Kirby/Lee

team, the Silver Surfer—the one character universally acknowledged as Jack’s creation—would be so dominated and changed by Lee into a character no longer acknowledged by his creator. Time would be kinder to Jack’s Surfer in the pages of FF than to Lee’s Surfer in the failed first series. Two men with distinctly different versions of the same character end up creating two characters. With no malice on either side, and good intentions gone awry, the Silver Surfer turns out to be the prime example of a failure to communicate.★ (Special thanks to Mark Evanier for providing background information for this article. NEXT ISSUE: Part Four of “A Failure to Communicate” as we discuss Jack and Stan’s differing takes on the HIM character!)

Throughout FF #76, Kirby’s margin notes show he fully intended the Indestructible to speak. It seems strange that the usually verbose Lee purposely rendered this character mute. 41

The Kirby Kronicles by Jeff Gelb earching through some old scrapbooks recently, I came across these 1975 photos of myself and Jack that were taken during a visit to his house in Thousand Oaks. I was living in San Diego at the time and drove up with Shel Dorf and many other San Diego fans. My agenda was more than just fanboy gushing: At the time, I was doing 3-D comic book covers, using six copies of a comic book, balsa wood, and an x-acto knife to recreate covers in three dimensions, then framing them. I have always been fascinated by 3-D comics and actually sold these for a few years through the then-young Pacific Comics store and catalog. Knowing I was gonna meet Jack, I did a 3-D comic cover of one of his books to present to him in person, hoping to trade it for a quick pencil sketch. He was thrilled with the 3-D cover, immediately hung it up in his office (which thrilled me no end), and then sat at his famous drawing table and asked me what I wanted him to sketch. At first I was inclined to ask for “Fighting American,” a character I dearly love, but I figured in years to come I’d browbeat myself if I didn’t get a “Captain America” from him. So that’s what he produced, a sketch that still hangs proudly (and always will) in my comics library. [It was shown in TJKC #3.] I’ve also enclosed a letter Jack sent a few years later after I sent him another 3-D cover. The letter demonstrates what a cool guy he was: Funny, warm, real; one-of-a-kind. Is it any wonder I proudly display the Jack “King” Kirby bumper sticker on my car?! (And no funny cracks about my appearance back then... hey, it was the swingin’ ’70s, man! Boogie Nights and all that!)★

(above) Jack trades Jeff a Cap sketch for Jeff’s Sandman #1 cover in 3-D. (below) Poolside in Jack’s backyard, with Jack’s original, inked and watercolored Orion and Lightray concept drawings.

(Jeff Gelb is the editor of the Pocket Books’ Hot Blood and Shock Rock horror anthologies, and the writer of the novel Specters, as well as the Dark Horse Betty Page comic book that was edited by Dave Stevens. He’s a lifelong comic book fan-addict.)

Two Letters To Jack Talking With Jack Kirby

(Editor’s Note: Unfortunately, I’ve misplaced the name of the person who submitted this wonderful reminiscence. If you’re the writer, please contact TJKC so we can credit you for a free issue!)

ack was a good guy. He liked his fans. He made time for us. As a 12-year-old in 1972, I sent him a self-addressed envelope and an index card asking for his autograph. I waited anxiously for weeks to see if anything would come back from the King. One afternoon the mailman brought back my hand-addressed envelope. Inside was a typed letter thanking me for my letter and the index card with my autograph from Jack Kirby. “To Mark, Best Wishes, Jack Kirby”; a small sketch of Orion next to his signature. He didn’t have to do that for me. But he understood how much it meant. I still have Jack’s letter and autograph. In 1993, I again wrote Jack. I had gone back into collecting, trying to repurchase all the great comics I had as a kid. I didn’t have an address for Jack besides the one in

Submitted by Fred Hembeck (This has to be one of the oddest—and in some ways most charming—interviews with Jack we’ve ever read, conducted by phone by three kids in the 1980s for the kids’ section of the New York Newsday newspaper.) QUESTION: What kind of training is needed to be a comics artist? Which school do you suggest for young people who want to be comics artists? JACK KIRBY: You have to have an initial interest. You can major in art and work at it until you really get good. The cheapest school is the comic book. You should look at the art of your favorite artists, copy their styles, and develop your own. Q: Which Marvel character do you like the most? JACK: I like them all but prefer Captain America. There were several, but I think the best really was Captain America.

the back of the old Mister Miracles: PO Box 366, Newbury Park, CA 91320. But I wrote Jack anyway, at that old address. I felt like I was sending off a prayer—or a letter to the North Pole to try and reach Santa Claus. I didn’t even know if he was still alive. I told Jack that his was the work I had discovered I was now searching out. As a kid, I had loved Jack Kirby, Neal Adams, Jim Steranko, Bernie Wrightson, Barry Smith, and others, but top on my list now was Jack’s work. He was the guy who had brought me the greatest pleasure in the past and the present. The core of my search was for the Fourth World books. When I pick up New Gods #6 or the Demon, I see his gift most clearly of all. I don’t know if the letter ever got to him. I doubt it did. He passed away about a year later. I just wanted him to know that that little kid in Houston, Texas that he sent a autograph to has not forgotten him. Far from it. Jack’s the King.★

Q: What made you decide that you wanted to be a comics artist? JACK: I collected magazines, comics and things like that, and from there I made my decision. Q: What are some of the more difficult aspects of comics illustrating? JACK: The difficult aspect of illustrating is drawing something that people want to see. Keep the reader’s interest, and then you will know you are doing a good story. Q: Did you work on animation with Stan Lee? JACK: Yes, I started with the Fantastic Four, and now I do many other things, though the Fantastic Four had appealing characters. Q: Why has your artwork become much better since you started working with Marvel? JACK: As time went by, I got more experience, and as you get more experience, your artwork gets better.

A Kirby Memory

Q: How come on the cover of Hulk #1 [it] looks like you drew him gray but inside you drew him green? JACK: We developed printing trouble, so we were forced to do him green. We have kept him that color and have had him referred to as “the green man,” etc. by other characters in the comics.

by John Schettino t age eleven I saved my allowance for endless weeks until finally I had the four dollars that I needed for my copy of Kirby Unleashed. When I mailed my money all the way out to California, I included a letter (which must have sounded pretty pathetic) asking if it was possible to buy Kirby’s autograph. Months later my copy of Kirby Unleashed finally arrived. There was no autograph included but, hey, at least I finally had the world’s coolest book in my possession. I read and re-read it, copied the drawings, and carefully removed the staples so that I could hang up the color pages on my bedroom wall. I continued to accumulate my comic book collection and fill up my sketchbooks. About a year passed and one day I got an envelope in the mail. This was weird. I was a kid; I never got personal mail. The return address was a place in California. Could it be? I tore open the envelope and inside was a 3" x 5" index card with an inscription on it written in marker. It said “Dear John—Best Wishes—Jack Kirby.” I still have that card, and it still means as much to me now as it did twenty-five years ago.★

Q: How come in every picture of the Thing in Fantastic Four #1 you drew him differently? JACK: It takes about four issues to get a super-hero’s looks the way he will end up. Q: Do you plan to retire? JACK: Well, I have never really considered it. You can’t just stop doing this kind of thing immediately.★ (right) Unused art for the Marvelmania Fan Club. These heads were discovered on the back of the Metron concept art shown on the back cover of this issue. 43

thing different about it. “Dynamic” is the word I would use now; I probably didn’t know that word when I was 7. But I remember while Captain America wasn’t one of my big favorites, it was a book I enjoyed. You know, [at] seven years old in the Midwest, it doesn’t occur to you that human beings had done this, (laughter) that there might be names attached to it. And then of course when I went to work for Stan, Jack was one of the very first people I met. I remember watching him work in the office and being so new to the business that I didn’t know how astonishing it was that that guy was sitting there and that as fast as his hand could move, pictures were emerging. (laughter)

O’Neil On Kirby Denny O’Neil interviewed by Bob Brodsky (Like Jack Kirby, Denny O’Neil stands as one of comics’ most prolific talents. While Kirby’s best work relied mainly on the power of his artwork and the cosmic scope of his ideas, O’Neil has walked a different sort of beat. For nearly 35 years he has infused his writing with intelligence, craft and groundbreaking characterization. Originally a journalist, O’Neil began his comics’ career at Marvel in 1965, writing “Dr. Strange” and the occasional Daredevil story for Stan Lee. In 1967 he joined Dick Giordano at Charlton, where, under the pen name “Sergius O’Shaugnessy” he contributed the well-remembered comic book novella “Children of Doom” and Wander, a marvelous sciencefiction/western strip. O’Neil came to DC with Giordano in late 1967 and promptly settled into an incredible six-year run that began with The New Wonder Woman in 1968 and ended with The Shadow in 1974. O’Neil’s considerable creative accomplishments during this period included updating The Justice League and Superman, returning Batman to his “obsessed avenger” roots and introducing “relevance” to comics with his and Neal Adams’ astonishing Green Lantern/Green Arrow series. In the process, he elevated comics to a new place of respect among fans, professionals and, incredibly enough, the “real world” outside the medium. Denny left DC for a writer/ editor position at Marvel in the late-1970s, where he detailed Tony Stark’s struggle with alcoholism in Iron Man and mentored a young Frank Miller before returning to DC in 1985. The late 1980s brought his gritty revival of Steve Ditko’s ’60s Charlton character, The Question, a series O’Neil considers his most honest work to date. Now group editor of the Batman line and the writer/creator of Azrael, O’Neil has also written extensively outside of comics including novels, teleplays and short stories.) THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: When did you first become aware of Jack and his work? DENNY O’NEIL: Probably before I became a professional. I started buying some Marvel comics when I was still a reporter and I imagine that there had to be some Jack Kirby in there. And actually, if you want to tell the strict truth, probably when I was 6 or 7, because I remember reading Captain America and being struck by the artwork. I couldn’t even articulate that I liked it. I just remember that there was some-

TJKC: How well did you get to know Jack during your mid-’60s stay at Marvel? DENNY: Oh, just to say hello to. I don’t think we ever spent an evening

Kung-Fu Fighter #3 pencils. “Jim Dennis” is a pseudonym for Denny and a friend who co-created the character. 44

from some of his editors. Do you recall such a plan? DENNY: No, but Carmine would not have confided in me. That would make some sense; I don’t now if it’s true or not. I mean Marvel was clobbering DC in sales by that time and I imagine that a lot of Marvel’s success was rightfully credited to Jack. So you know, it’s a kind of time-honored ploy to hire your competitor’s big gun, and I think Stan would have been out of the question. (laughter) Again, “resistance from editors”? It’s not an impossible scenario, but I don’t know. TJKC: How did you and Julie Schwartz come to employ the Morgan Edge “man behind the mirror” subplot in your Superman stories? Did you and Jack communicate on this? DENNY: No. It was something that Julie asked me to do. TJKC: I thought that perhaps the Edge subplot was an early attempt at Carmine’s alleged plan. DENNY: It could be; but I was so far down on the totem pole and I wasn’t there very much. I would walk, bicycle, or subway up once or twice a week and do my business and maybe hang around and go to dinner with somebody, maybe not. It was a pretty closed shop in that I don’t think a lot of information was even shared with the editors. I don’t think they got sales figures, for example, which I consider an essential tool for an editor to have. So I don’t know. I suspect that only Carmine could answer those questions, and maybe not Carmine; or maybe Joe Orlando would have known. TJKC: Were you a fan of Jack’s Fourth World? DENNY: I thought it was interesting. It’s like so many things; I now appreciate it more than I did at the time. I now have, I think, a pretty clear idea of what he was up to which was nothing less than creating a new mythology from the ground up, and that’s pretty ambitious; (laughter) but at the time I just thought they were interesting super-hero comics. TJKC: Did you have a favorite book in the series? DENNY: I don’t think so. I liked them all kind of equally; maybe Mister Miracle, by a tiny hair. together as I did with Bill Everett and one or two other people. Jack would come in and if I was in the office or around, I’d see him and say “hi,” but there was no significant interaction.

TJKC: In late 1972, a fanzine called Rocket’s Blast Comic Collector printed an erroneous item stating that Jack had left DC to return to Marvel and that you were going to replace him as editor of Mister Miracle, Kamandi and The Demon. What do you know of this story? DENNY: (laughter) Boy, that’s interesting. I think I wrote a Kamandi or brushed up against that character. In 1972 it was not likely that they would have considered me for that. I don’t remember if that was the year that I actually spent, I think, not quite a year on the payroll. But the year I did spend on the payroll, I would not have won any popularity contests. I sure think if I had been in their position, I wouldn’t have considered me for such a thing and I am willing to testify that nobody ever mentioned it to me. So I kind of suspect that’s one of those rumors that started in the ether somewhere.

TJKC: Do you recall the reaction at DC when it was first learned that Jack would be coming over from Marvel? DENNY: Oh yeah, sure. There was rejoicing. I think that people thought it was a coup. TJKC: How did you feel about Jack joining DC? DENNY: Well, I certainly was approving of it. By that time I knew enough about the business to know how good Jack was, (laughter) and I thought his addition to the line could only mean good things. TJKC: I’ve heard stories over the years that Carmine’s hiring of Jack was in fact an attempt to “Marvelize” DC by extending Jack’s Fourth World as a running subplot across most of the DC line. Supposedly, Carmine’s plan was never fully implemented because of resistance

TJKC: In 1975, as Jack’s DC contract was winding down, you and he produced what I believe was your only work together: Three issues of Justice Inc. and one of Kung-Fu Fighter. Both of those short-lived titles 45

were written and edited by you. How did Jack become involved with the books? DENNY: I think Carmine probably just gave him the assignment or asked him to do it. I don’t remember specifically asking for Jack. I do remember being delighted with the results and happy that he was doing them. Particularly with Justice Inc.; I thought he did a pretty good job there. With the other title, I don’t know that he had that much interest in that kind of material, and I didn’t have a handle on what it should be visually; so I think, as so often happens in the writer/editor equation, the editor half of that got pretty much slighted and I just concentrated on doing my scripts. But there was minimal interaction if any. Like so many things, I did a script, it got sent off to an artist—and the artist being Jack, within two or three weeks I got the job back and it never needed any editing.

DENNY: I would have sent a complete script for those; but some of them I think were adapted or quasi-adapted from the novels. TJKC: Do you recall talking on the phone or exchanging notes with Jack about the books? DENNY: We may have but, again, not significantly. It would have been just business, not creative talk. I would imagine that Jack was much more interested in doing his own stuff than my script off of characters that were created by somebody else. It’s like three removes from the creative source and Jack was, we now know, one of the most imaginative and creative guys that the field has ever had. TJKC: It’s always struck me as odd that DC did not acknowledge Jack’s participation on those books. Did the powers that be at the company ask you to downplay Jack’s role? DENNY: Not that I remember, no. “Never attribute to malice, what can be explained by incompetence.” (laughter) I think you’d have to remember that for all of us it was a job; and while you may have recognized that Jack was way better then the average penciler, we were basically guys doing a job. There was no cult of personality. There was not anywhere near the emphasis on individual creative contributions that there is now. I’m not lauding that or excusing it, it’s just the way it was. Similarly there was the big fuss—generated I think by Frank Miller—about Superman’s head being redrawn in the Jimmy Olsen book and what an artistic outrage that was. Yeah, it was an artistic outrage; but I’ll bet Jack didn’t think so, though he certainly didn’t like it. But the attitude was different. Nobody was thinking very much in terms of art form or at least if they were, they weren’t admitting it. (laughter) When [you say], “It’s treating it like product”; yeah, exactly. For all practical purposes that’s the way the stuff was treated, and nobody was being malicious. It was simply not quite recognized as an art form or anything that consisted of individual creative contributions. It was beginning to be, but that kind of information sort of disseminates slowly. So I think at the bottom of the food chain that recognition was pretty universal. Maybe not so much at the top, but the people at the top had no reason to think of it like that. When comics started in 1939 it was a pretty low rent form. I guess you know Bob Kane died a couple of days ago. Somebody was talking about him today— about how he apparently was interested in newspaper strips, because that was the respectable form of comics back then. Comic books were definitely a stepchild. Again, probably there were individual creators who were thinking in terms of an art form, but they probably wouldn’t voice that aloud.

TJKC: Did you send Jack a complete script or did you work “Marvel Style?”

TJKC: I just saw a contradiction, because when Jack came over to DC, “Kirby’s Here!” was everywhere, but by 1975 he couldn’t get arrested as far as the company was concerned. DENNY: Well, they may have recognized that the fans were interested in Kirby. Whether the people running the company recognized it, I don’t know. Again, I was so far down on the food chain, I never had any interaction with any of the people who ran things, so you may be right. At the very least, of course, they 46

would have seen some value in his name. How much respect for what he did that carried, I don’t know. You’d think that Carmine would know, because he was in the same racket and he certainly knew good from bad. And I seem to remember him praising Kirby a lot. I really don’t know. TJKC: How do you rate your four stories with Jack? DENNY: I’ve not re-read them; maybe I ought to. They were probably okay. TJKC: I thought that while they were not among either of your best work, your styles bounced off each other very well and Jack’s pencils gave the stories extra excitement. Especially with Justice Inc., where you had three straight issues together. DENNY: Yeah. That might have turned into a really good book if we’d continued. TJKC: Definitely so. Speaking of Justice Inc., did you and Jack leave behind any unpublished work? It seemed to me that the book was very abruptly cancelled. DENNY: I don’t think so; but yeah, everything was abruptly cancelled. I found out that The Shadow was cancelled when somebody pointed out a subscription blank with The Shadow very obviously whited out before it was printed. TJKC: In early 1976 you dialogued a “New Gods” revival story that appeared in First Issue Special. The story was edited and plotted by Gerry Conway and drawn by Mike Vosburg. How did you feel about handling Jack’s characters without Jack? DENNY: It was a job. I don’t remember feeling anything much one way or the other. That was so long ago. I’d forgotten that Gerry had plotted that. TJKC: I found it pretty incredible that there was not one single mention of Jack in the entire book. Even the text-page recap of the New Gods history made no mention of him. Why do you think that was? DENNY: Maybe they were mad at him. I don’t know the circumstances around his leaving DC, and it’s the sort of thing I don’t think you’ll ever get a straight answer on. There’s that business that nobody was taking notes and we’re all over fifty now. (laughter)

extraordinarily talented artists, who’ve done comics: Eisner, George Herriman, maybe Caniff. Jack is definitely in the top five. And in comic books, I guess you’d be safe to say, maybe he and Eisner are the two best writer-artists the field has ever had. I have just total respect for him. I mean he understood that comics weren’t movies. He understood he was working for a page and not a screen. Again, a kind of instinctive grasp of what was important, of what craft was all about, what the limitations were and how to use the limitations instead of being hampered by them. An incredible man.★

TJKC: Any final thoughts on Jack? DENNY: Oh yeah, I think he was a giant. So many things, he did so well. Everything from inventing romance comics to... I think he had the best mythological imagination anybody ever had in our field and maybe anywhere. In his guts he understood what mythological thinking was about. He didn’t have much formal education, but neither did Homer. I think he had a kind of gut, Jungian imagination and intelligence, and way before the rest of us understood what super-heroes were about. He could have written a book on it. Ron Whyte once said in a published review that Jack was a genius at drawing for bad reproduction. And the reproduction was pretty dreadful back then, but he kind of understood how to transcend its limitations. That by itself is a hell of an accomplishment. And when he got good repro, he could rise to that occasion, and did. But no matter what the medium, his work was always distinctive and always very dynamic. There’ve probably been a handful of geniuses,

(Editor’s Note: This interview is running concurrently in the premiere issue of the O’NEIL OBSERVER, a publication dedicated to the work of Denny and the craft of comic book writing. O’NO #1 features Steve Englehart, Mark Evanier, Elliot S! Maggin, and Steve Skeates. The examples of the King’s art showcased in O’NO #1 are different from the ones here, so get your FREE COPY by being one of the first 250 people to send four 33¢ stamps to BOB BRODSKY, 8455 Fountain Avenue #611, West Hollywood, CA 90069, or e-mail Bob at BrodB@aol.com for more information.) 47

hearkened back to all the big hits he had with Joe Simon in the ’40s and ’50s. Look at the list of rehashes: The Guardian and the Newsboy Legion (in Jimmy Olsen); Sandman (in his own book, where Jack even reteamed with Joe Simon one last time); Manhunter (a oneshot in First Issue Special); the Losers (an attempt to play off the wartime success of Boy Commandos?); the Demon (shades of Black Magic!); and the Dingbats of Danger Street (another go at the venerable “Kid Gang” concept). DC even tried reprints of such S&K classics as Black Magic and Boy Commandos. Apparently publisher Carmine Infantino felt that after acquiring Marvel’s creative powerhouse, the best route to take would be to send him down the paths (and genres) that had sold millions of Simon & Kirby comics in the past. It’s a credible strategy from a publishing standpoint—building off of past successes—but there’s one thing that apparently wasn’t considered: Jack’s constant desire to create “the next big thing” in comics. He would never be content to simply look to his past glories, and to his credit he always attempted to bring something new to these triedand-true concepts. Still, in the early days Kirby was allowed some conceptual freedom. The groundbreaking Fourth World took the super-hero genre to new heights, and several magazine concepts were devised, with at least a full issue drawn of four of them (although only In The Days of the Mob and Spirit World were ever published, albeit in a format different than what Jack originally envisioned)—and Kirby’s opening page for True Divorce Cases #1. while these magazines were also rooted in the best-selling Simon & Kirby genres (crime, horror, and romance), the end result was unlike anything the S&K team had ever produced, particularly in the romance vein.

Heart & Soul

True Divorce Cases and Soul Love examined by John Morrow

Breaking Up Is Hard To Do

irby’s early days at National Periodicals in the 1970s must’ve seemed to him like a time of infinite possibilities. After a period of strained relations with the Marvel “House of Ideas” he helped build, his new contract at DC was a chance to start fresh and try a plethora of new, daring ideas he’s not wanted to relinquish to the Marvel mill. But throughout Jack’s five years at DC, his work continually

For Jack’s first try, he created what’s been dubbed the first antiromance comic. True Divorce Cases (or True Life Divorce, as it was also known from time to time during its inception) was—like In The Days of the Mob and Spirit World—Kirby’s attempt at upscale, adult-oriented magazine fare. While divorce had always been a taboo subject, the “free love” mindset of the 1960s led to a surging divorce rate in America by 1970, and Jack looked to take advantage of this growing social trend.

While the concept may seem odd by today’s standards, this was cutting edge for 1970. Jack intended this to be for adults (assistant Steve Sherman even remembers a rather risqué photo shoot involving a woman in leopard-skin underwear, a bed, and a motorcycle; this would’ve been used either on the cover or as part of a photo story inside the magazine). Perhaps it was a little too hard-hitting, for after Jack’s penciled pages for the entire book were handed in, the idea was shelved. A trip to the 1998 Comic-Con International in San Diego gave me a firsthand look at most of the original art from the book. In TJKC #20, we offered a glimpse at the three-page story “The Cheater” that

would’ve ended the mag, and the remarkable “The Other Woman”, a ten-page tale with an unexpected ending. Also done for the issue was the thirteen-page “The Maid”, a story of the conflicts that can arise when a liberated woman enters the workforce, and leaves the housework (and unknowingly, her husband’s emotional upkeep) to a beautiful young maid. (Here’s another then-current trend Jack was exploiting to good effect: The Woman’s Liberation movement that caused such upheaval in the late 1960s-early 1970s.) Next up was “The Twin,” a seven-pager dealing with the trials and temptations of having an exact double (or in this case, a more outgoing, sexually-charged version) of your wife in the house. (Although almost the entire issue has been lettered, only the first two pages of “The Twin” have been partially inked by Vince Colletta; the rest of the book remains in pencil form.) Upon reading these stories, I discovered a remarkably mature Kirby telling tales of love gone wrong and relationships ending. (Or do they? There were surprise twists throughout.) Marriage Counselor Geoffrey Miller was the narrator of the tales, offering snippets of advice at the end of each case. Of the four stories I’ve read, there’s not a dud in the bunch. The same goes for the female leads of each; these pages ooze sensuality, and the women depicted are— to this writer’s mind— the sexiest of Jack’s career. From the striking good looks of ingénue Ingrid and the mature beauty of Myra in “The Maid”, to the buxom playfulness of sisters Edna and Charlotte in “The Twin”, Jack captured the feminine form in all its wonderful variety. (Three other examples—the WASPish Janet in “The Cheater” and the catlike Jessica and matronly Evelyn in “The Other Woman”—were shown in TJKC #20, as well as an intriguing “next issue” illo showing four more varied Kirby women.) The entire issue is a gripping read, filled with art by Jack at his peak, 49

Kirby produced some of his most sensuous work in “The Maid” from True Divorce Cases #1 (and only). 50

and stories—while plagued with occasionally awkward Kirby dialogue—that are well-plotted, clever, and genuinely engaging. In the best tradition of his 1950s romance work, Jack managed to pack more punch into a bunch of “hearts and flowers” tales than most artists can put into super-hero yarns. Nevertheless, True Divorce Cases was rejected, and remains mostly unpublished to this day. But since we know Jack averaged 42 pages of story in both issues of In The Days Of The Mob and Spirit World—and we’ve only accounted for 33 pages of True Divorce Cases—it appears there is one 8-10 page story still unaccounted for. It is this missing story, it seems, that was the genesis of another potentially groundbreaking concept that (mercifully?) never made it to newsstands.

A Little Bit Of Soul As reported in TJKC #17, Kirby had done one of the divorce-themed stories about an African-American couple, apparently hoping to appeal to a Black audience just beginning to exercise its consumer power following the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s. (Since none of the known stories from True Divorce Cases is about a Black couple, this must be the missing story; if you’ve ever come across an unpublished Kirby story where a Black couple is on the verge of divorce, let us know.) The decision was made to form an entirely different magazine around this story, and call it Soul Love (sometimes also called Soul Romances). The move was no doubt inspired by the blaxploitation films that gained such popularity in the 1970s, as typified by Blackula, Shaft, Superfly, and the short-lived TV ladycop show, Get Christy Love. Whereas True Divorce Cases ranks in my mind as some of Kirby’s finest, most sensitive work, Soul Love leaves much to be desired. As you’ll see in the accompanying 10-page story “The Teacher”, the characterizations—despite being complemented by some decent art—just don’t ring true. Reading these stories, I get the same sort of feeling I had watching such 1970s TV fare as Good Times, That’s My Mama, and What’s Happening; while moderately entertaining, these characters don’t come anywhere close to resembling real-life African-Americans (or at least my admittedly Caucasian-skewed interpretation of them, based on experiences

growing up in a very desegregated Southern public school system). There’s an effort made to capture the clothing, hairstyles, and settings of the 1970s Black lifestyle (and Jack succeeds admirably, probably due to the issues of Ebony assistants Evanier and Sherman got him for reference), but the stories just fall flat. In addition to “The Teacher”, I had the opportunity to read “Diary of the Disappointed Doll”, a five-pager about a computer dating mix-up (the splash page was shown in TJKC #17); “Dedicated Nurse”, a sevenpage melodrama about an overweight nurse who cares for an ailing father, while struggling with her love for his son; “Fears of a Go-Go Girl”, where a dancer named Buffy discovers her frightening neighbor may not be so strange after all (this one is ten pages long); and “Old 51

Fires”, a two-pager (shown in the Kirby Masterworks portfolio) about a couple whose love wouldn’t die. (Again, this only adds up to 34 pages, so there appears to be one story missing—probably the one that started this whole mess in the first place!) Lacking a narrator (a device that at least gave Jack’s other “adult” publications a personality), Soul Love’s stories are generically introduced with an attempt at “hip” dialect that comes across as horribly forced; and while the underlying, universal message of love in these romance tales should theoretically transcend all racial boundaries, Kirby just didn’t seem to have enough “soul” to pull them off convincingly. As True Divorce epitomizes Jack’s finest work, Soul Love just draws more attention to his stilted dialogue, and stands as some of his worst. Which is not to say Soul Love is totally without merit. First, Kirby

(a then 53-year-old man, with apparently little exposure to Black culture) deserves credit for even attempting something this radical, and the art is pretty solid (Vinnie Colletta’s inks add a nice softness here). Another extremely positive note is the unexplained use of Tony DeZuniga as inker on “Diary of the Disappointed Doll” (as identified by Richard Howell; Colletta fully inked all the other Soul Love stories). I’ve no idea why this one was inked by DeZuniga, but the unusual combination yielded spectacular results. (Of note is the use of a pasted-up title on the splash page of “Disappointed Doll”; it’s possible this story was originally called “The Model”, as mentioned on Soul Love #1’s cover. However, “The Model” could be that missing story, especially since it’s listed first on the cover.) As mentioned back in TJKC #17, the faces of most of the major characters have been redrawn, presumably to make them look either more or less “Black.” There are blue pencil lines and Wite-Out all over these pages— particularly on character’s noses and lips—leading me to believe that DC fully intended to publish this thing until the last minute. Still, I can’t imagine 1970s readers—regardless of race—really enjoying Soul Love. While Jack’s basic plots are fine, their execution is severely hampered by dialogue that rivals his worst on Captain Victory for obliqueness. The difference between the two books is that with True Divorce, the main focus was something Kirby could relate to: Relationships between two human beings. But with Soul Love, the importance of the romance is deflected by the superimposed constraint of making it all look “Black.” Here, Jack was working too hard to convince us that these characters and settings are genuine, and we lose sight of the skilled storyteller behind them. Had the main characters not been Black (and the need for Jack’s awkward attempt at “cool” lingo eliminated), this could’ve made a decent romance comic (although none of these stories have the clever twists and turns that make True Divorce Cases so special). I’ll bet when that missing story turns up, we’ll find the characters’ race to be inconsequential; it’ll just be another outstanding romance story. But for sheer kitsch-appeal, Soul Love—along with the inspired stories from True Divorce— deserves to be published in one large volume. We’ll keep trying to convince DC to give it a shot (or to let us do it), but in the meantime, enjoy this rare look at a—perhaps deservedly—forKirby’s unused, unfinished cover for Soul Love #1. gotten piece of Jack’s career.★ 52

Classifieds (10¢ per word, $1 minimum) ______________________________ MIGNOLA Hellboy art wanted, also Alex Toth DC work, Vampirella Special Hardcover, “Ark” #33 (Toth Interview). Brian Postman, 238 East 24th Street, #2A, New York, NY 10010. ______________________________ KIRBY COMICS for sale. Private collector selling extra copies from 60’s and early 70’s—early Marvel Superheroes and some DC—various grades. Call or write for list: Clifton F. Marley, P.O. Box 757, Robbins, NC 27325, (910)948-3993. ______________________________ WANTED in near mint/mint condition: TJKC #10 and #12, ARGOSY Magazine Vol. 3, #2, and Hunger Dogs GN. Joachim Walden, Taubertsgasse 12, D-64625 Bensheim, Germany. ______________________________ TRADE: I have a set of THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR issues #1-6 (out of print) to trade for a nice copy of “Captain America’s Bicentennial Battles” Treasury Edition inked by Barry Windsor-Smith. Ken Kooistra, 250 Laureen Road, Schwenksville, PA 19473. ______________________________ HEY KIRBY FANS! A number of collectors have contacted TJKC about finding copies of Kirby’s GODS Portfolio, Kirby Unleashed, Jack Kirby Masterworks, the New Gods portfolio, the Dark Horse Kirby portfolio, Marvelmania Portfolio, and other hard-to-find Kirby collectibles. If you have any of the above available for sale or trade, please contact TJKC, and we’ll try to get sellers and buyers in touch with one another. ______________________________ THE BYRNE VICTIMS UNITE QUARTERLY wants you! Featuring over 20 years and 12,000 pages of published work from “Wheelie And The Chopper Bunch” to “The X-Men: Hidden Years”

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LIMITED EDITION PRINTS FOR SALE. Jack Kirby—A Premier Presentation from the Ruby-Spears Productions Animation Collection—can be seen on the Web at: www.madmorgan.com or by contacting Jeff Cooke at Mad Morgan Enterprises, PO Box 6698, Burbank, CA 91510, (818)848-1445, FAX (818)840-1252, e-mail: morgancooke@earthlink.net (catalogs available). ______________________________

We’re not some giant corporation with deep pockets, and can absorb these losses. We’re a small company—literally a “mom and pop” shop—with dozens of hard-working freelance creators, slaving away day and night and on weekends, to make a pretty minimal amount of income for all this work. We love what we do, but our editors, authors, and your local comic shop owner, rely on income from this publication to stay in business. Please don’t rob us of the small amount of compensation we receive. Doing so will ensure there won’t be any future products like this to download.

WANTED: Photocopies or originals of the following for possible use in TJKC: Advs. of the Fly #4 • All-Slug Comics #5 (Lightray drawing) • Comics Revue #30 (Caniff tribute by Jack) • Gunfighters #85 or Bullseye #7 • Joe Palooka #5, 62, or 116 (Boy Explorers story) • Spidey Super Stories #24 cover • Amazing Heroes #4 (Destroyer Duck prototype) • The Collector #27 (Kirby art) • Comic Crusader #9 (Bullseye art) • Comic Informer #7 (Marvel Batman art) • Dallas Con Program 1986 (Orion drawing) • Infinity #1 (Cap and Red Skull drawing) • San Diego Con Program 1980 (Bullseye art) • Train of Thought #6 (Kirby interview) • Contact TJKC at 1812 Park Dr., Raleigh, NC 27605 ______________________________

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THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR #23 TWOMORROWS PUBLISHING PRODUCTION IN ASSOCIATION WITH THE KIRBY ESTATE ASSISTANT EDITOR: PAMELA MORROW ASSOCIATE EDITOR: JON B. COOKE DESIGN & LAYOUT: TWOMORROWS PROOFREADING: RICHARD HOWELL REGULAR COLORIST: TOM ZIUKO CONTRIBUTORS: JERRY BOYD BOB BRODSKY ROBERT L. BRYANT GLENN DANZIG SYLVAIN DELZANT TOM DOYLE MARK EVANIER GENE FAMA MIKE GARTLAND JEFF GELB CARY GETCHELL BILL GOODWIN BRUCE GRAHAM FRED HEMBECK ALEX HORLEY MICHAL JACOT CRAIG KERCHEVAL TRACY KIRBY RICHARD KOLKMAN HANS KOSENKRANIUS TOM KRAFT R. GARY LAND STEVE LEIALOHA DENNY O’NEIL MIKE PAGE TOM PALMER STEPHANO PAVAN GORDON ROBSON STEVE RUDE JOHN SCHETTINO BEN SCHWARTZ J.P. SHANNON CHRIS TAMURA MIKE THIBODEAUX ZAK VILLERS R.J. VITONE SPECIAL THANKS TO: JOHN AND RICK IN CHICAGO BOB BRODSKY JON B. COOKE GLENN DANZIG MARK EVANIER MIKE GARTLAND BRUCE GRAHAM D. HAMBONE RANDY HOPPE ALEX HORLEY RICHARD HOWELL ROBERT KATZ TRACY KIRBY R. GARY LAND MARTY LASICK DENNY O’NEIL MARK PACELLA STEVE RUDE BEN SCHWARTZ MIKE THIBODEAUX ROY THOMAS TOM ZIUKO AND OF COURSE THE KIRBY ESTATE MAILING CREW: RUSS GARWOOD D. HAMBONE GLEN MUSIAL ED STELLI PATRICK VARKER A

EDITOR: JOHN MORROW

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Collector Comments Send letters to: The Jack Kirby Collector c/o TwoMorrows • 1812 Park Drive Raleigh, NC 27605 or E-mail to: twomorrow@aol.com _____________________________________________ (First off, let me make a correction from last issue. The pencil drawing on page 51 of TJKC #22 was eventually inked by Mike Gustovich, not Bill Reinhold—but Bill was the person who was nice enough to supply us the pencils. Now, on to a self-serving letter of praise:) _____________________________________________ Let me say TJKC is great. In an era when the comic book as a genre is in decline, it’s refreshing to read about the mind behind the era when it was not. Thank you. Along with COMIC BOOK ARTIST and ALTER EGO, the KIRBY COLLECTOR is about all the new stuff I buy, excepting Miller’s SIN CITY. Keep it coming! Gregg Fallon, S. Boston, MA (I’m pleased to announce that the response to Roy Thomas’ ALTER EGO section in the back of COMIC BOOK ARTIST has been so positive, we’re spinning ALTER EGO off into its own solo magazine, starting in June! Plus, we’ve got a couple of other special publications in the works, so stay tuned.) _____________________________________________ The high point of #22 was definitely the printing of Jack’s pencils for the Galactus story. I have no idea how these pages have been saved for all these years, but they are worth their weight in gold. The Galactus/Silver Surfer trilogy represents not only the height of Jack’s abilities, but the absolute height of super-hero comics. Although many later super-hero stories by many writers and artists are technically more sophisticated, absolutely no one has ever come close to equalling the awe and inspiration of this storyline. It may be hard for younger readers who grew up with Galactus, Darkseid and company to appreciate how mind-bogglingly original this all was, but comic book fans had never seen anything like this before. Everything since has merely been new wrinkles of what Jack had done in the ’60s. I’d grown up seeing a lot of Jack’s pencils and always found them awesome. Considering how varied his art looked depending on who inked them, it is amazing to have seen how tight Jack penciled. He was the best then, and remains so today. Nobody who has followed him has had the imagination and depth Jack showed with every panel he drew. Thanks for the unpublished art, the pencils you run every issue, and your magazine. It’s wonderful. Marv Wolfman _____________________________________________ Congratulations on another superlative issue! The Kirby/Stevens cover was simply stunning, and the back cover collage seemed to capture Darkseid in a perfect moment of sinister contemplation. But what impressed me the most were the uninked pages from FANTASTIC FOUR #49. It’s no secret that Jack’s pencils were always incredibly tight, but this goes beyond mere penciling! At a time when Kirby’s responsibilities at Marvel included turning out an average of 50+ pages a month (not to mention all of the story plotting he had to do), it’s mind-boggling that he could produce such detailed artwork, right down to the fine shading! Here’s hoping someone at Marvel has the good sense to someday reprint the original “Galactus Saga” in black&-white straight from Jack’s pencils, with no inking. I think that it would prove to be a revelation for aspiring artists everywhere. Gene Popa, Hammond, IN (It is amazing, isn’t it? It truly was Jack’s all-time peak, with probably the best plotting, pacing, and penciling of his entire career, all converging on this one story arc in 1966—and the simultaneous Thor/Hercules storyline in THOR, another classic that often doesn’t get the credit it deserves. But those FF #49 pencils were an overwhelming hit; hope you like the ones we ran this issue.) _____________________________________________

I do have one complaint about the package you mailed TJKC #22 in. You put a drawing of the Red Skull on the package, complete with a Nazi swastika, and that was embarrassing to me. I know you didn’t mean to, but it might’ve given the impression to anyone at the Post Office that I was somehow affiliated with Nazis. After all, there are some people out there whose “radar” turns on whenever they see anything that smacks of a Nazi symbol. Just watch the symbols you use in the future so it doesn’t give anyone the wrong impression about your company or the person to whom you are mailing the package. Keith Lee, San Diego, CA My wife was appalled when I got the latest issue of TJKC! An ominous character with a swastika on the envelope— what kind of fascist material with my name on it is in the mailbox?? What did the mailman think?? We’re Jewish and there’s a swastika in our mailbox. We live in a small town...ahhhhhhh! I really didn’t get very far trying to explain this one— she wants me to cancel my sub! But I won’t. Please—no more Nazis on the outer envelope. Or lapses in good taste. Andrew Mackler, Arlington, MA (For all you non-subscribers out there, the mailing envelope for TJKC #22 featured the shot of the Red Skull from page 13 of that issue. I didn’t mean to offend anyone, but I should’ve been more aware of how it would affect people, particularly our Jewish readers. When I was looking for an image of true villainy for the mailing envelope of the Villains issue, that one jumped out at me. Since Kirby’s whole life was affected by WWII and the Nazis, it just seemed the right choice. I did give some thought to how it would strike people, but figured since Jack—who was Jewish—used it on a cover 20 years ago, some of its shock value would be lessened. But taking it out of its original context might’ve made a bit too powerful of a statement, and I should’ve taken that into account. I hope any subscribers who were offended will accept my apologies, and it won’t be a problem in the future. Starting this issue, all TWOMORROWS publications will be mailed in a heavier weight white envelope, to better protect the issues. Unfortunately, the higher cost means we’re forced to bulk print a bunch of them all at once, so this means no more art on the envelopes. However, since I always only used art that also appeared in the issue, you won’t be missing out on anything, and your issues should arrive in better condition to boot.) _____________________________________________ I really enjoyed TJKC #22, especially the Steve Sherman article on King Kobra. As it happened, I had recently reread KOBRA #1, the 1976 published version of the story Steve and Jack crafted. It’s a mess, but an interesting mess, and makes for an interesting comparison with Steve’s plot and script. No one has ever had much success publishing comics that star-feature villains, and here we have two attempts at doing that very thing. One point worth noting, I think, is that the text page (appropriately entitled “Snake Pit”) gives credit for initiating the character to Carmine Infantino! I quote: “...who tossed editor Jack Kirby the idea of doing a modern-day version of the Corsican brothers—but placing them on opposite sides of the law.” According to the text page, Kirby then passed the idea to Sherman, and they proceeded from there, in an almost exact inversion of Sherman’s chronology. I’m more inclined to credit Sherman’s account, since he was a principal player and has so much back-up material, but I have to wonder if he and Infantino might not have been working in parallel. Could both have approached Kirby with elements that became part of the final book? We’ll never know, I guess. Another note of interest is that touch-up artist Pablos Marcos seems to have made at least some attempt to screw some Kirby-type faces onto the existing art during the revision process. He’s not consistent, and not always successful, but Lieutenant Perez, especially, has a Kirbyish look to him in most panels, and the effect is less jarring than at least the worst of the Superman pasteovers. The re-written captions are another story, though,

and quite a hoot—take a look at the panel reproduced on page 60 of TJKC #22, and see if that looks like a “student union cafeteria” to you! Like I said, an interesting mess. Pierce Askegren, Annandale, VA _____________________________________________ Here are the answers to the SUE’S DOs contest in TJKC #20: #15, 1, 15, 16, 19, 21, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 32, 36, 38, 39, 44, 47, 71, 92, 96, 100. Extra credit: #81, 41, 72. Ernie Jeong, Fremont, CA (Nice work, Ernie! Since we only got two correct answers to the contest, we’re crediting you both for a free issue of TJKC. The other correct respondent follows; he’s becoming a regular to this letter column.) _____________________________________________ Thanks for printing my letter and for putting my picture in a magazine that is sold all over the world. The kids at school thought that was TIGHT! My Dad is paranoid that you like MY contributions better than his! HA! Keep up the good work. Nick Alexander, Age 12 (And now, a word from Nick’s Dad:) The uninked pencils from FF #49 in TJKC #22 absolutely floored me! Even though Joe Sinnott is my favorite Kirby inker, the fact that he changed Jack’s faces during the first phase of his tenure on the magazine has always been a source of consternation to me. To finally see Jack’s original version of what may be the greatest comic ever made was a godsend. This type of material is EXACTLY why I subscribe to TJKC. This is what makes your publication worth every penny of the cover price. Mark Alexander, Decatur, IL P.S. You’re giving my kid a big head!! _____________________________________________ Since the late 1980s, I’ve been a fan and collector of Jack Kirby original art. Glen Gold’s article in issue #19 on missing Marvel artwork supports a belief I’ve had for years: That few, if any, pre-1965 published Marvel covers seem to exist. It’s strange that of the 388 Atlas/Marvel covers that pre-date the ones that first appear in mid-1965, only two are rumored to have surfaced. As Mr. Gold explains in his article, this leaves us with two schools of thought: First, someone has the rest of them; second, they were destroyed in the printing process. If you believe that they exist, the argument that they’re all in one place (or a few places) is a reasonable one. Most knowledgeable Kirby collectors have no idea where any of these covers are located. It makes sense that if they had been dispersed in the same way the interior art left Marvel, by ‘’theft’’ or giveaway, they would have eventually reached a wider range of people, and the whereabouts of at least some of them would be known. Although Mr. Gold toys with the second notion—that the covers were destroyed in the printing process—he concludes that they were returned to Marvel from Eastern Color Printing and so they must have survived. In my opinion, this dismisses the possibility of their demise too quickly. For whatever reason, how do we know the covers weren’t discarded later on at the Marvel offices? It’s possible they were also disposed of before going to the engraver. Since many covers were the victims of editorial changes, it’s conceivable that statted copies of the revised and finished product may have been some of the ones sent to Eastern Color Printing. So, even though Mr. Gold asserts that the engraver didn’t destroy them, we’re also not sure what Marvel did with them, before and after the printing process. From reading interviews with Marvel staffers in TJKC and elsewhere, it’s evident that in the company’s early days the printed copy was more important than the original art. Yet, the fact that 95% of the interiors have survived points to the conclusion that there must have been a practical reason for saving those pages. Perhaps it was counted as a Marvel asset, as Mr. Gold suggests. But covers were often messy assemblages of glue, pasteups, and correction fluid. Because of their almost “train

wreck” appearance, their perception as a company asset may have been low—and if Marvel made statted copies of their finished covers, which I know they did for their ad pages, why did they need to keep the original cut-andpaste job? It could be thrown away or given away because the clean stat copy could he used for future reference. Also, keep in mind that the early Marvel offices were small and limited in space. To keep duplicate copy in such a cramped environment would seem foolish. So, for reasons of limited value after printing and limited space to store them, I believe most of the Kirby Marvel cover art from those premiere days may have been discarded. Which brings us to those piles of artwork Flo Steinberg relates throwing out in TJKC #18. Although she’s not specific about what was discarded, she says in her words that this occurred in the mid-sixties. Is it sheer coincidence that no covers have surfaced before the mid-sixties? Did Flo throw away all those stacks of covers published before mid-1965 and therefore the cream of Kirby Marvel Silver Age art? It makes me shudder to think. Yet,

given the mindset of the day, Flo may have thought she was doing Stan a favor. After all, they were only useless, glue-stained, paste-up jobs cluttering some needed shelf space. Hans Kosenkranius, Newark, DE _____________________________________________ I was wondering if you’ve ever heard a passing reference to Jack in a song by Ian McLagan. McLagan (or “Mac” as he is known as) is the keyboard player who gained fame with the ’60s British mod-rock quartet Small Faces (known best in the US for their hit 45 “Itchycoo Park”). In 1969 when Small Faces leader Steve Marriot left that band to form Humble Pie, Mac and company were joined by Rod Stewart and Ronnie Wood, and the Small Faces morphed into a new group known simply as Faces. They are best known for the ’70s hit “Stay With Me” and eventually disintegrated in part due to the fact that they were considered to be a backing group for Rod Stewart, whose star was riding high in his concurrent solo career. Mac followed his bandmate Ronnie Wood (who had joined the Rolling Stones) to play keyboards as an addi-

tional musician with that famous institution in the studio and on tour (he played with the Stones on their ’78 and ’81 US tours and can be seen in the Stones concert film LET’S SPEND THE NIGHT TOGETHER). His notable contribution to their work is his prominent keyboard playing on the song “Miss You.” What has this got to do with Jack Kirby? In 1979, after touring with Stones’ Wood and Keith Richards as a member of their side project band The New Barbarians, Mac recorded his first solo album, called Troublemaker, on Mercury records. The first song, “La De La” is a rockin little ditty that contains these lines: “I’’ve ready every Lee & Kirby comic book— But it’s fantasy And now that Superman’s made a movie— No one reads his magazine. Do you believe in livin’ other people’s dreams?” It goes by pretty fast, and the first time I heard it my reaction was: “Whaaat??!!” I had to replay it. The mention of Jack is sort of a throwaway; but it is in there. Significant—not really. Obscure—yes. Of interest to a Jack Kirby fan—you decide. Fred Janssen, Long Beach, CA (Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Fred—and be on the lookout for an upcoming TJKC interview with another very famous musician who’s a Kirby fan.) _____________________________________________ Really enjoyed your last issue, December 1998. In the “Creation of King Kobra” by Steve Sherman, he mentions he was helping Jack with the FIRST ISSUE SPECIALS. He briefly spoke about “Atlas.” Recently John Byrne tried to tie the old gods with the New Gods, the Wonder Woman issues, etc. Knowing how Jack always tended to leave plenty of room for others to elaborate, could Atlas be the missing link to that connection ? I ask this because of your other stories on the relationship of CAPTAIN VICTORY. Could Steve shed some light on this? I thought it was interesting how the idea of Crystal Mountain was part of the storyline in Atlas. Sounds like a lot of those Atlantis stories of crystals, destruction, etc. I bring this up because of the similarities in the character on page 57, Karion, and some of the villains in the ATLAS storyline. Was there ever a plot for a follow-up story to the FIRST ISSUE SPECIAL on Atlas ? Craig J. Satterlee, Powell, WY (As far as I know, there’s only Jack’s 2-page concept art—with text explaining a few of his rough ideas for directions for the series—and nothing ties it directly to any of his other work. One of those pages is shown here. Since it’s been almost 25 years, Steve doesn’t remember all the details of the stuff, especially the later DC work when Jack was just cranking it out to meet his page quota, but I’ll ask him next time I talk to him.)

NEXT ISSUE: It’s no-holds barred as we spotlight KIRBY’S GREATEST BATTLES! For starters, MIKE (Hellboy) MIGNOLA inks an unpublished epic Kirby battle scene for our FULL-COLOR, WRAP-AROUND COVER! Inside, you’ll find a hard-hitting interview with the champ himself, JACK KIRBY! Then we come out swinging with a discussion of Jack’s fight to get his original art back from Marvel Comics, including a new interview with the always-controversial JIM SHOOTER! Also, there’s a detailed analysis of our favorite Kirby battle story (featuring Jack’s uninked pencils; can you guess which one?), plus the fourth in our series of articles comparing Kirby’s margin notes to STAN LEE’s DIALOGUE! And throughout, we’ll showcase plenty of rare and unpublished art from some of Kirby’s greatest fight scenes, including knockout pages from THOR, NEW GODS, THE LOSERS, SUPER POWERS, and more! The deadline for submissions: 3/10/99.

COMING IN MARCH:

COMIC BOOK ARTIST (100-pages, $5.95 cover) features great comic book artists, writers, editors, and the books they made great! Our fourth issue proudly presents EMPIRE OF HORROR: THE WARREN PUBLISHING STORY, featuring a FULL-COLOR BERNIE WRIGHTSON COVER, plus: • The definitive JIM WARREN interview (with behind-the-scenes details of his years publishing VAMPIRELLA, CREEPY, EERIE, BLAZING COMBAT, HELP! and other fan favorites)! • An in-depth interview with BERNIE WRIGHTSON, including plenty of RARE and UNPUBLISHED art! • Rare and unpublished art, interviews, and features with FRANK FRAZETTA, RICHARD CORBEN, JACK DAVIS, AL WILLIAMSON, ARCHIE GOODWIN, HARVEY KURTZMAN, ALEX NINO, and other Warren alumni! On the flip side, comics legend ROY THOMAS provides another new edition of ALTER EGO, focusing on his work on THE AVENGERS and X-MEN, plus rare and unpublished art by STEVE DITKO, JOE KUBERT, & others!

BACK IN PRINT!

VOLUME ONE

COLLECTED KIRBY COLLECTOR, Vol. One: 240-page trade paperback reprinting TJKC #1-9, including the FOURTH WORLD and FANTASTIC FOUR issues, plus a NEW section with over 30 pieces of art never before published in TJKC, including pencils from THOR, NEW GODS, THE PRISONER, FANTASTIC FOUR, CAPT. AMERICA, HUNGER DOGS, JIMMY OLSEN, and more! Interviews with KIRBY, JOE SIMON, MIKE ROYER, MARK EVANIER, JOE SINNOTT, essay by STERANKO, new introduction by EVANIER, and page after page of RARE KIRBY ART! (SHIPS IN APRIL • ORDER NOW!)

SUBSCRIBE TO: WE NOW COMIC BOOK ARTIST ACCEPT (Start my sub with issue ❏ #3 ❏ #4) CREDIT ❏ $20 for 4-issues in the US CARDS! ❏ $27 for 4-issues in Canada/Mexico ❏ $37 for 4-issues elsewhere (Airmail)

Fax, call, THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR or e-mail (Start my sub with issue ❏ #23 ❏ #24) ❏ $24 for 6-issues in the US your order! ❏ $32 for 6-issues in Canada/Mexico ❏ $44 for 6-issues elsewhere (Airmail) Name

JACK KIRBY CHECKLIST, 1998 EDITION: The most thorough listing of Kirby’s work ever done! Fully updated, listing every published comic with Jack’s work, including story titles, page counts, and inkers. It even cross-references reprints! There’s also a bibliography, listing books, periodicals, portfolios, fanzines, posters, unpublished work, and more! 100 pages— proceeds go to the Kirby Estate!

COLLECTED KIRBY COLLECTOR, Vol. Two: 160-page trade paperback reprinting TJKC #10-12, plus a new guided tour of the Kirby home, complete with photos and over 30 pieces of Kirby art never before published in TJKC! Interviews with JACK & ROZ KIRBY, GERBER, BYRNE, EVANIER, STERN, WOLFMAN, and more! Color Kirby/Steranko cover.

BACK ISSUES: (SORRY, TJKC #1-6, 8-12, 14 & 15 are SOLD OUT!) • ALL PRICES INCLUDE SHIPPING! ❏ COLLECTED TJKC Vol. 1: (240-page TRADE PAPERBACK reprinting #1-9) $21.95 postpaid ($24.95 Canada, $34.95 elsewhere) ❏ COLLECTED TJKC Vol. 2: (160-page TRADE PAPERBACK reprinting #10-12) $14.95 postpaid ($16.95 Canada, $24.95 elsewhere) ❏ JACK KIRBY CHECKLIST (100-pages, listing every published Kirby comic!) $5.00 postpaid ($5.50 Canada, $7.50 elsewhere) ❏ TJKC #7: (36-pages) KID GANG issue! Unpublished KIRBY interview, unpublished art from BOYS’ RANCH, BOY EXPLORERS, JIMMY OLSEN, DINGBATS, X-MEN, and more! Kirby/Stevens cover. $4.95 postpaid ($5.40 Canada, $7.40 elsewhere) ❏ TJKC #13: (52-pages) SUPERNATURAL issue! Kirby interview, unpublished 7-page story, DICK AYERS interview, DEMON, BLACK MAGIC, ATLAS MONSTERS, & more! Color Kirby/Ayers & Kirby/Bissette covers. $4.95 postpaid ($5.40 Canada, $7.40 elsewhere) ❏ TJKC #16: (52-pages) TOUGH GUYS Issue! FRANK MILLER and WILL EISNER interviews! Kirby’s cowboys, gangsters, kid gangs, spies, soldiers, & more! Color Kirby/Miller & Kirby/Kesel covers. $4.95 postpaid ($5.40 Canada, $7.40 elsewhere) ❏ TJKC #17: (68-pages) DC issue! Interviews with KIRBY, NEAL ADAMS, and D. BRUCE BERRY! Plus OMAC, KAMANDI, CHALLENGERS, SANDMAN, & more! Color Kirby/Royer and Kirby/Rude covers. $5.95 postpaid ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere)

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❏ TJKC #18: (68-pages) MARVEL issue! Interviews with KIRBY, STAN LEE, THOMAS, ROMITA, BUSCEMA, SEVERIN, TRIMPE, ROUSSOS; ANT-MAN, ETERNALS, & more! Color Kirby & Kirby/Sinnott covers. $5.95 postpaid ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere)

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❏ TJKC #19: (56-pages) ART issue! KUBERT, EASTMAN, MILLER, EVANIER, GERBER, GROTH, & KIRBY interviews, thesis by GIL KANE, COLOR SECTION (with Jack’s paintings)! Color Kirby/Alex Ross cover. $5.95 postpaid ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere)

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❏ TJKC #20: (68-pages) JACK’S WOMEN! Interviews with KIRBY, DAVE STEVENS & Jack’s daughter LISA; unused 10-page story, CAPT. VICTORY screenplay, GALAXY GREEN, & more! Color Kirby/Steacy cover. $5.95 postpaid ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) ❏ TJKC #21: (68-pages) JACK’S WACKIEST WORK! Interviews with KIRBY, GIL KANE, & BRUCE TIMM; SILVER STAR screenplay, TOPPS COMICS work, & more! Color Kirby/Wiacek & Kirby/Stone covers. $5.95 postpaid ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere) ❏ TJKC #22: (68-pages) VILLAINS issue! KIRBY, STEVE RUDE, and MIKE MIGNOLA interviews; genesis of KOBRA, FANTASTIC FOUR #49 pencils, Darkseid, Galactus, & more! Color Kirby/Stevens & Kirby covers. $5.95 postpaid ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere)

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❏ COMIC BOOK ARTIST #1: (100-pages) Spotlighting DC COMICS: 1967-74, with a new NEAL ADAMS Batman cover, interviews and features on ADAMS, KIRBY, INFANTINO, CARDY, KUBERT, GIORDANO, & more! $5.95 postpaid ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere)

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❏ CBA #2: (100-pages) Spotlighting MARVEL’S SECOND WAVE: 1970-77, with a new GIL KANE cover, interviews and features on STAN LEE, KANE, WINDSOR-SMITH, STARLIN, STERANKO, PLOOG, & more! $5.95 postpaid ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere)

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❏ CBA #3: (100-pages) Spotlighting NEAL ADAMS: THE MARVEL YEARS, with a new ADAMS cover and interview, TOM PALMER interview, rare Adams art, unpublished Adams X-MEN GRAPHIC NOVEL art! $5.95 postpaid ($6.40 Canada, $8.40 elsewhere)

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