SUMMER 2024
TM an r-M ide Sp
&©
l rve Ma
rs,
cte
ara
Ch
.
Inc
JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR NO. NINETY
$10.95
The Best in POP Culture! ZOWIE!
THE TV SUPERHERO CRAZE IN ’60s POP CULTURE by MARK VOGER
HOLY PHENOMENON! In the way-out year of 1966, the action comedy “Batman” starring ADAM WEST premiered and triggered a tsunami of super swag, including toys, games, Halloween costumes, puppets, action figures, and lunch boxes. Meanwhile, still more costumed avengers sprang forth on TV (“The Green Hornet,” “Ultraman”), in MOVIES (“The Wild World of Batwoman,” “Rat Pfink and Boo Boo”), and in ANIMATION (“Space Ghost,” “The Marvel Super Heroes”). ZOWIE! traces the history of the superhero genre from early films, through the 1960s TV superhero craze, and its pop culture influence ever since. This 192-page hardcover, in pop art colors that conjure the period, spotlights the coolest collectibles and kookiest knockoffs every ’60s kid begged their parents for, and features interviews with the TV stars (WEST, BURT WARD, YVONNE CRAIG, FRANK GORSHIN, BURGESS MEREDITH, CESAR ROMERO, JULIE NEWMAR, VAN WILLIAMS), the artists behind the comics (JERRY ROBINSON, DICK SPRANG, CARMINE INFANTINO, JOE GIELLA), and others. Written and designed by MARK VOGER (MONSTER MASH, HOLLY JOLLY), ZOWIE! is one super read! (192-page FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER) $43.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-125-7 SHIPS JULY 2024!
CLIFFHANGER!
All characters TM & © their respective owners.
CINEMATIC SUPERHEROES OF THE SERIALS: 1941–1952 by CHRISTOPHER IRVING Hold on tight as historian CHRISTOPHER IRVING explores the origins of the first on-screen superheroes and the comic creators and film-makers who brought them to life. CLIFFHANGER! touches on the early days of the film serial, to its explosion as a juvenile medium of the 1930s and ‘40s. See how the creation of characters like SUPERMAN, CAPTAIN AMERICA, SPY SMASHER, and CAPTAIN MARVEL dovetailed with the early film adaptations. Along the way, you’ll meet the stuntmen, directors (SPENCER BENNETT, WILLIAM WITNEY, producer SAM KATZMAN), comic book creators (SIEGEL & SHUSTER, SIMON & KIRBY, BOB KANE, C.C. BECK, FRANK FRAZETTA, WILL EISNER), and actors (BUSTER CRABBE, GEORGE REEVES, LORNA GRAY, KANE RICHMOND, KIRK ALYN, DAVE O’BRIEN) who brought them to the silver screen—and how that resonates with today’s cinematic superhero universe. NOW SHIPPING! (160-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 • (Digital Edition) $15.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-119-6
COMIC BOOK IMPLOSION (EXPANDED EDITION) by KEITH DALLAS & JOHN WELLS
NOW IN FULL-COLOR WITH BONUS PAGES! In 1978, DC Comics launched a line-wide expansion known as “The DC Explosion,” but pulled the plug weeks later, cancelling titles and leaving dozens of completed comic book stories unpublished. Now, that notorious “DC Implosion” is examined with an exhaustive oral history from JENETTE KAHN, PAUL LEVITZ, LEN WEIN, MIKE GOLD, AL MILGROM, and other DC creators of the time, plus commentary by other top pros, examining how it changed the landscape of comics forever! This new EXPANDED EDITION of the Eisner Award-nominated book explodes in full cover for the first time, with extra coverage of LOST 1970S DC PROJECTS like Ninja the Invisible and an adaptation of “The Wiz,” Jim Starlin’s unaltered cover art for BATMAN FAMILY #21, content meant for cancelled Marvel titles such as Godzilla and Ms. Marvel, and more! SHIPS MAY 2024! (144-page FULL-COLOR SOFTCOVER) $26.95 • (Digital Edition) $10.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-124-0
IT ROSE FROM THE TOMB An all-new book written by PETER NORMANTON
Rising from the depths of history comes an ALL-NEW examination of the 20th Century’s best horror comics, written by PETER NORMANTON (editor of From The Tomb, the UK’s preeminent magazine on the genre). From the pulps and seminal horror comics of the 1940s, through ones they tried to ban in the 1950s, this tome explores how the genre survived the introduction of the Comics Code, before making its terrifying return during the 1960s and 1970s. Come face-to-face with the early days of ACG’s alarming line, every horror comic from June 1953, hypodermic horrors, DC’s Gothic romance comics, Marvel’s Giant-Size terrors, Skywald and Warren’s chillers, and Atlas Seaboard’s shocking magazines. The 192-page full-color opus exhumes BERNIE WRIGHTSON’s darkest constructs, plus artwork by FRANK FRAZETTA, NEAL ADAMS, MIKE KALUTA, STEVE DITKO, MATT FOX, WARREN KREMER, LEE ELIAS, BILL EVERETT, RUSS HEATH, THE GURCH, and many more. Don’t turn your back on this once-in-a-lifetime spine-chiller—it’s so good, it’s frightening! (192-page SOFTCOVER) $31.95 • (Digital Edition) $15.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-123-3 • NOW SHIPPING!
TwoMorrows. The Future of Pop History.
Phone: 919-449-0344 E-mail: store@twomorrows.com Web: www.twomorrows.com
TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA
Contents
THE
WHAT IF KIRBY...? OPENING SHOT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 fifth world fan-fic from the editor INNERVIEW. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Kirby & Carmine’s cryptic comments JACK FAQs . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 Mark Evanier’s 2021 Comic-Con@ home Kirby Tribute Panel, with Paul Levitz and Walter Simonson
ISSUE #90, SUMMER 2024
C o l l e c t o r
ANALYSEZ. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 what killed Jack’s masterpiece? RE-REDUX. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23 it’s New Gods ’77! GALLERY. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27 what if Kirby returned to his best work? INCIDENTAL ICONOGRAPHY. . . . . 34 Jack goes with the Flo ARACH-NITS. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36 Spiderman’s tangled web EYE-SPY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 Will Murray’s unseen Spider-Man DITKODATA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 42 who Steve thinks created Spidey FOUNDATIONS. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 47 a never-reprinted S&K crime story FANFLIX. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 54 a fan finishes unfinished sagas SKETCHUP. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 56 Jack’s other black book KIRBY KINETICS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 57 Jack Kirby, art director KIRBY OBSCURA. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 61 WHAT-IFER . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 64 Tom Kraft interviewed COLLECTOR COMMENTS. . . . . . . . 78 Cover inks/color: DAMIAN PICKADOR ZAJKO COPYRIGHTS: AIM, Avengers, Batroc, Bombu, Captain America, Crystal, Daredevil, Dr. Doom, Dr. Strange, Dragon Man, Eternals, Fandral, Fantastic Four, Frightful Four, Galactus, Giant-Man, Hulk, Human Torch, Hydra, Invisible Girl, Iron Man, Ka-Zar, Mad Thinker, Miss America, Mr. Fantastic, Nick Fury, Puppet Master, Red Ghost, Sandman, Silver Surfer, Spider-Man, SubMariner, Thing, Thor, Trickster, Watcher, What If?, Wizard TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. • Batman, Beautiful Dreamer, Big Barda, Big Bear, Black Magic, Clark Kent, Darkseid, Demon, Dr. Skuba, Forager, Forever People, General Electric, Gork, Granny Goodness, Green Lantern, Guardian, Infinity Man, Jimmy Olsen, Kamandi, Lightray, Mark Moonrider, Mister Miracle, New Gods, Newsboy Legion, OMAC, Orion, Sandman, Serifan, Super Powers, Superman, Ugly Mannheim, Vykin, Wonder Woman TM & © DC Comics. • Haunt of Fear, Weird Science TM & © William M. Gaines Agent, Inc. • Strikeforce, Thundarr TM & © Ruby-Spears Productions. • Bombast, Captain Victory, Copycat, Tribes Trilogy TM & © Jack Kirby Estate • Shadow TM & © Conde Nast • Conan TM & © Funcom • Mr. Scarlet TM & © Archie Comics • Lord of Light TM & © Roger Zelazny • 2001: A Space Odyssey TM & © Warner Bros.
Don’t STEAL our Digital Editions! C’mon citizen, DO THE RIGHT THING! A Mom & Pop publisher like us needs every sale just to survive! DON’T DOWNLOAD OR READ ILLEGAL COPIES ONLINE! Buy affordable, legal downloads only at
www.twomorrows.com or through our Apple and Google Apps!
& DON’T SHARE THEM WITH FRIENDS OR POST THEM ONLINE. Help us keep producing great publications like this one!
(above) Full-page pencils from What If? #11 (Oct. 1978), featuring Jack, Stan Lee, Sol Brodsky, and Flo Steinberg as the FF. The Jack Kirby Collector, Vol. 30, No. 90, Summer 2024. Published quarterly (as if!) by and © TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. 919-449-0344. John Morrow, Editor/Publisher. Single issues: $15 postpaid US ($19 elsewhere). Four-issue subscriptions: $53 Economy US, $78 International, $19 Digital. Editorial package © TwoMorrows Publishing, a division of TwoMorrows Inc. All characters are trademarks of their respective companies. All Kirby artwork is © Jack Kirby Estate unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter is © the respective authors. Views expressed here are those of the respective authors, and not necessarily those of TwoMorrows Publishing or the Jack Kirby Estate. First printing. PRINTED IN CHINA. ISSN 1932-6912
1
Opening Shot
The Fifth World
W
hat if... it’s the not-too-distant future? After a knock-down, drag-out battle, the forces of Darkseid, and the villain himself, have seemingly been defeated once and for all by the Super Powers team, and things have been quiet for many years. The Global Peace Agency has risen to power during that time, making the Justice League unnecessary, so they’ve gone into a well-deserved retirement. An ageless OMAC is created to be the new protector of society, under the auspices of the GPA. Something’s been bugging him for decades, so a much older and wiser James Olsen and his pals in the Newsman Legion do some serious investigative reporting. In Scotland, they finally uncover the truth about Morgan Edge’s clone, and his nefarious dealings with Apokolips and the Evil Factory they once confronted. They also learn of an imminent final attack on Earth, which leads them to the abandoned ruins of the former Happyland amusement park, where the Guardian and OMAC team up to stop this scheme. The heroes arrive at Happyland to find Mantis, who has unleashed his army of Bugs, rampaging beneath the Earth through the forgotten Boom Tube tunnels shown in early New Gods issues, armed with Micromark weaponry and digging to its core. As the heroes battle Mantis, we learn the backstory of how the Bugs were originally enlisted to create those tunnels, and Darkseid is now capitalizing on this horde’s discontent over how the people of New Genesis sought to exterminate them. Back on New Genesis, Forager warns of Darkseid’s resurgence, and joins Lightray, Orion, Mister Miracle, and Big Barda in a Boom Tube to Earth. But it’s diverted to Apokolips by Metron, who betrays them to repay an old debt to Darkseid. They are met with a surprise attack by Darkseid’s entire entourage (Dr. Bedlam, Kalibak, Granny Goodness, Virmin Vundabar, etc.). Despite a valiant effort (in which Big Barda dies in battle saving Scott), they realize their only hope lies in locating the long-lost Forever People. Scott’s Mother Box has interfaced with Brother Eye on Earth and learned that Dr. Myron Forrest created OMAC at the Project, to secretly harbor the remnants of the AntiLife Equation that existed in the minds of the O’Ryan’s Mob members. Beautiful Dreamer holds the missing remnant. Leaving Orion behind to do battle with Darkseid in Armagetto as foretold in prophesy, with Highfather’s help, a distraught Scott Free finds the now much-older Forever People isolated on the idyllic planet Adon. They sacrifice themselves taking Infinity Man’s place in oblivion with one last “TAARU!”, and instill him with the full Anti-Life Equation through Scott’s Mother Box link to Brother Eye. The now all-powerful Infinity Man travels to Apokolips just as a nearly triumphant Darkseid realizes he can’t kill his own son, and makes Darkseid eternally a Promethean Giant on the Source wall, leaving his lackeys in disarray and defeat, to rule in his absence.
My idea for a “what if?” mini-series or graphic novel, by editor John Morrow (with thanks to Steve Sherman)
Meanwhile, as Earth is collapsing from the Bugs’ underground Micromark explosions, Superman appears from retirement, and rushes to save the planet from total destruction (as shown in flashback on pages 2–3 of Kamandi #29). Superman follows the tunnels to find a Kryptonite core at the Earth’s center (a result of the chain reaction in Superman #233 that turned all the surface Kryptonite to iron ore—it in turn left the ore at the Earth’s center turned to Kryptonite). With his last breath, he stabilizes the Green-K core and dies. Michael Grant, the human scientist from The Project who made Kamandi’s Cortexin serum, is shown as the planet quakes. As test animals escape his lab and are exposed to Cortexin, one gorilla (“Whiz Kid”) has surveyed Superman’s noble sacrifice to save Earth. With the Earth now in ruins, the Bugs have fulfilled their purpose. As they scatter to the surface to retreat with Mantis, a previously unseen Kanto the Assassin fulfills a secret contract with Darkseid by mortally wounding OMAC in the swarming melee. As the Black Racer appears to claim the dying OMAC, Brother Eye reverts him to Buddy Blank and foils the Racer. So the Racer instead travels to Apokolips, reclaiming Infinity Man to join the Forever People in the Source, breaking his tie to the Anti-Life Equation (which is now lost forever), and ending his resurrection. Olsen, the Newsmen, and the Guardian (communicating with Brother Eye through the circuitry of the Whiz Wagon), help a confused Buddy Blank make it into the ruined Project’s Command D bunker, one of four (A, B, C, and D) built as a last resort to save mankind in the event of global catastrophe. Before they perish along the harrowing journey, they manage to also get the lone Newswoman of their group to safety in the bunker, to one day become Kamandi’s mother—or so Kamandi will be led to believe. It’s also possible Kamandi is just a clone of Buddy, created in the remains of the Project. The surviving New Gods blast off into space on their floating city, leaving Earth to its Bug-infested fate as the Earth A.D. (After Disaster) of Kamandi. (Klik-klak is a descendant of the Bugs.) “Whiz Kid” takes the name Golgan and retrieves Superman’s uniform (pulled from the tunnels by a retreating Bug), and founds the Superman-worshiping tribe from Kamandi #29. Scott Free, mourning the loss of Barda, leaves Supertown for a life of seclusion on Adon, where he trains Orion and Bekka’s son to one day return to Earth and restore mankind to its past glory. Scott gifts Turai, the Forever People’s Mother Box, to the boy. He grows to become Captain Victory, and helps Kamandi and Ben Boxer assist loyal Dr. Canus in dispensing his Cortexin antidote, thereby helping the human race rise up against the sentient animals, at the loss of Canus’ own sentience. But in the ensuing years, the Lightning Lady has devoured her aged mate Mantis, and assumed control of his dormant Bug forces on Earth, as she prepares to ravage the galaxy... H [Would Jack have gotten to any of these plot points if his Fourth World series had continued? That’s my take; let’s hear yours, readers!] 2
Innerview
Cryptic Commentaries
A January 31, 1971 interview with Jack Kirby & Carmine Infantino, conducted by Mark Sigal, David Rubin, Paul Hock, and Marc Bigley in the DC offices • This originally appeared in the fanzine Comic & Crypt #5, 1971
[This interview was conducted very early in Jack’s tenure on the Fourth World, and just prior to the ill-fated launch of In The Days of the Mob and Spirit World.]
break to start, and that was the beginning. C&C: You seem to be best known for [Adam] Strange and The Flash. Which did you enjoy more? CARMINE: To tell the truth, I did not like doing westerns, or, strangely enough, The Flash. As for Strange, I enjoyed him at first, but I really liked the Elongated Man. I’m sure this goes for you too, Jack; the ones you’re best known for aren’t the ones you like best. JACK: The ones I began weren’t the well-known ones. I began Manhunter and Mr. Scarlet, which just faded out. Every strip I did was a challenge, as I’m sure it was to Carmine; but I feel what Carmine is trying to say is that he especially liked one thing, but we couldn’t always do that. We did what they gave us to do.
COMIC & CRYPT: How did you both get started in comics?
CARMINE: I could never do a sci-fi story the way he could. C&C: But your speed concepts and futuristic cities were amazing.
CARMINE INFANTINO: I got into comics (above) Jack on the day of this interview, and Carmine the same way at his desk around the same early 1970s time period. Jack did; we were kids of the Depression. Now you gentlemen don’t know the Depression, or what it was about. It was a period when you starved; your family starved. There wasn’t enough food to go around. This was an outlet for us, a field open to us, and like those who went into prizefighting, we went into comics.
CARMINE: Did you see the ones he did? C&C: But you’re two different types of artists. You can’t—. CARMINE: This isn’t what I’m trying to say. This is not what I enjoyed the most. I enjoyed the Elongated Man because of the satire in there. Well, let me say something. Back in the early days, there was quite a lot wrong with my drawing, and every once in a while I would go up to this fellow in the city. We’d talk and he’d help me—but the most important thing he helped me do was think, and I feel he was one of the best around. When I went up there, he used to stop his work and look at my stuff and give me suggestions. That person was Jack.
JACK KIRBY: I feel the minority people had a lot of drive and went to entertainment or anywhere energy was involved.
JACK: Well, I’m not going to take credit for that. Carmine was and is a fine artist, but back then Joe Simon and I used to have an apartment up there. All the guys got together and I think we helped each other, actually. That was the main purpose back then, as none of us had a school; we became each others’ school. There were things that Carmine knew that I didn’t. It was an exchange and that’s basically how artists learned back them. We took standards from each other.
C&C: Who did you start off with first? CARMINE: We both started off with Harry Chesler many years ago. He was a packager—used to package comics, and he used to cheat you like crazy. You were lucky to get paid at the end of the week. It was more fortunate then, as there was time to begin. Now you either have it or you don’t—but then there were always little outfits where you could begin, learn, and grow. JACK: Back then I worked for Famous Funnies and I did cowboy stories for one of my earlier jobs. I also was with—. CARMINE: Yeah! He started that way, and you got nothing for it, but you didn’t care. It was a chance to work, a chance to draw, and that’s all we cared about. C&C: Were you in a group of independent artists who sold their stories to the publishers? CARMINE: No, I worked for Harry for a while; then I went to Quality, erasing pages and doing backgrounds. Those were the days of Lou Fine, and Reed Crandall on Blackhawk, and the genius Jack Cole started on Plastic Man. I used to erase pages all Summer just to get a (right) Splash page from First Love Illustrated #14 (Sept. 1951). The Grand Comics Database credits the pencils and inks to “John Sink”, which based on the autograph, appears to be a pseudonym for Carmine Infantino. Kirby at some point redrew the woman’s face, so we’re assuming this was a rejected Simon & Kirby Studio job that got reworked and sold to Harvey Publications.
3
C&C: Just what was your relationship with Joe Simon? How did it start?
Batman and Deadman. It was during that story that the second guy at Marvel was slaughtering National. I think his name was Kirby or something, and the gentleman who happened to be in charge at the time asked me if I would care to stop in and help re-organize. We discussed it and I finally did. I thought it would be interesting.
JACK: It started the same way all things did in the industry. Some guys gravitated to each other and Joe Simon and I met, liked each other, and decided to work together.
C&C: Well, you tried the “New Trend” books. They failed, but I read them all and I thought they had possibilities, especially Bat Lash.
C&C: In a lot of your books, you started the sort of panel within a narrative. How did you get the idea for that?
CARMINE: In Bat Lash, what bothered me the most was that I wrote it. I plotted every one of them and Sergio [Aragonés] took it from there and wrote them down. Then Denny [O’Neil] would dialogue them later.
CARMINE: The reason that was done was because we wanted to get as much motion as possible going, so that when you put that little box in with the silhouette of the batter pulling his bat back, in the next panel you had the follow-through, which kept the flow of motion.
C&C: When a friend of mine met [Mort] Weisinger, he was told by him not to go into comics; that it was a dying field. He told him rather to go into painting and to get out of comics.
C&C: But how did you get the idea [for “Strange Sports Stories”]? Was it a brainstorm of yours, or what?
JACK: You should have told him not to knock anything he hasn’t tried.
CARMINE: Well, Julie Schwartz, the editor at the time, told me to go home and make the book look different.
C&C: Was that the type of attitude that was around then?
C&C: Did you enjoy doing that particular series?
CARMINE: No, I think it was a personal attitude.
CARMINE: Yes, I did. Maybe it was the sports angle to it. I could design stadiums and futuristic basketball arenas, and the storyline made you think. Every book was a challenge.
C&C: Has the atmosphere changed? Are new ideas welcome? JACK: Yes. It’s a different company today. If a company feels that there is an essential need somewhere, they get the right executive to fill that need. In other words, to expedite that need. You use that need to revitalize the company. Comics are in a transition, as far as I see it. I think this is the most interesting time for comics.
JACK: I think you hit on the right gimmick. I feel that sports books are the toughest books to do. To do it in the first place is a challenge. To do it effectively was an achievement of some kind. I never had the opportunity to do it, but I still feel that it would be a challenge. CARMINE: I must have penciled a page a day on that stuff. That’s how rough it was, because you had to make sure the action followed through. If you didn’t, the thing didn’t work. It looked terrible. The bat was back and on the next panel, the ball connected. Then the ball moved out. The thing I enjoyed most was when somebody said, “I want it different.”
C&C: How long have you had the idea for the New Gods? JACK: Well, I guess for several years it’s probably been in the back of my mind, but I’ve never sat down and worked it out, though I’ve always known it’s been there. C&C: Do [the] Forever People come from the same place as the New Gods?
C&C: We’ve noticed that some comics are featuring covers by you. Do you ever feel like getting back to the drawing board?
JACK: Yes, but they don’t call the things you see the same things that I do. In other words, I would say “great” or “swell,” and you guys would say “cool.” It’s not New Genesis to them, but Supertown. That’s how they see it. There is, though, a lot more to it than that, and I think you guys are going to find it pretty interesting.
CARMINE: Jack, do you want to answer that for me? JACK: Well, I feel essentially Carmine will always have the urge, as anyone involved in a creative activity does. I think it’s a matter of circumstances and if Carmine had the opportunity and the time…
C&C: According to sales, the superhero book is on the rocks.
C&C: What led you into becoming Editorial Director?
JACK: I pay attention to the sales occasionally, only because I plot the books, and sometimes the sales are
CARMINE: An accident. I was drawing here. I think I was drawing the 4
my only link with the fans. I feel that the super-hero stuff is going somewhere. What I’m trying to do is follow its exact trail; that’s my job. I want to entertain you guys and find something new for you—if not just for you, for myself—the challenge of my job is to keep me from getting bored. I feel that if I would want to buy my own book, I have met that challenge. C&C: The themes in New Gods and Forever People are expansions of the old themes from Marvel. It seems that you had more ideas, but they wouldn’t let you continue with them. JACK: That’s more or less true. It’s not that I was cramped, but there were limitations which stopped me from going on. Over here I have the chance to go beyond them; I feel that whatever story there is to this “gods” business, the “new” gods or the “old” gods, I feel that there is a story to them. I feel that there was an actual replacement of the “old” gods by new ones which are relevant to what we see and hear. In other words, Thor may have been great in medieval times, but I feel somehow that we have transcended. Once it had a certain glamour, but now we need a new kind of glamour. Not that it isn’t fantastic, but we don’t see it in the same light anymore. I think we see things differently, the same things with an altered interpretation. You know what Thor looked like, what Mercury looked like, what Zeus looked like, and all the rest of them. It’s like everything that’s done and seen. What I’m trying to do is show the things that haven’t been done or seen. We have our “new” god today—technology. A new way of looking at things that I have got to represent. How do I represent that new technology? I’ve got Metron. How do I represent the kind of feelings we have today? Maybe some of us are analyzing ourselves, trying to find out why we’re a violent society and how we could be non-violent, so we all become Orion. Why do these feelings live like that inside of us? Not only do we associate ourselves with them, but these are conflicts. But why do we have conflicts like that inside of us? So we try to analyze it, just like Orion does. That’s what the gods are. They are just representations of ourselves. At that time, you take a crummy Viking, remove the glamour, and what the heck was he? Some poor guy in bear skins who never took a bath. He had a beard with lice in it and he says, “Look at me, I’m a really cruddy object”—and I felt the same way. The G.I.s feel
the same way sometimes when they’re sitting in some hole, but suddenly he says: “What the heck am I doing? What am I a symbol of?” And then he begins to idealize the version of all the bravery that goes into the fight. Maybe he begins to see himself as Thor and his captain as Odin. Then he sees what he’s fighting for. He sees why he’s in that hole, why he’s in the dirt, why he’s dressed in that stupid uniform. It’s not only functional—it’s symbolic of what he is; he comes into a whole new world and he feels pretty good about it. That’s what it’s all about—to make everything we see and know around and in us, and give it some meaning; and the gods are nothing more than that. They are making us see some value in us and we have—we have 5
[previous page and page 2] Pencils and lettering from New Gods #9, page 26 (July 1972). [above] Forever People #7 (March 1972), page 23 pencils.
it, but I couldn’t lace all these things into it, but it’s there. JACK: It’s there because I’m trying to interpret us. Nothing more than that. I’m trying to interpret what we’re in. What kind of times we live in—and we should have these versions. I can see this guy in a spacesuit. There is no reason why he shouldn’t be able to go to Mars. Maybe in ’75. Because we can do it. The materials are there. They’ll be common— and to put it all in one word, that’s Metron—and New Genesis. You name it. That’s New York or Chicago; just an idealized version of that. It’s the city. C&C: Did you ever mention this to Marvel? JACK: No. I was involved in what I was doing there and I feel that this would never have fit into what they were doing. This is a whole new interpretation and it cannot be told with shields and swords; it must be done with what we know and deal with what we worry about. C&C: So was Thor; when it came out as a mythology in the olden times, it was relevant and real to people then, because people were using the same things: swords, shields, etc. JACK: Yes, Thor was very real to this guy in the Middle Ages, and not only that; if you think about it, Thor was a religion as well. Thor is not a comic book story—Norse mythology was a religion, just as Greek mythology was. I was being superficial when I did Thor, and if I showed it to a guy who was really involved with it, he would tell me it wasn’t good enough.
that value. So in order to express that value, we make “new” gods. We can’t be Thor. We can’t be Odin anymore. We’re not a bunch of guys running around in bear skins; we’re guys that wear spacesuits and surgeon’s masks. A surgeon is godlike because he handles life and death. If you want to idealize him, that’s the way to do it. A nuclear physicist is Metron. A mathematician is Metron. A guy who works a projection booth in a theatre is Metron. We’re trying to know everything and we’ve got the equipment to do it. That’s where Metron’s chair comes in. It’s one of our gadgets. That damn chair can do anything!
C&C: Why?
C&C: There is so much meaning in the strip. I read it and I enjoyed
JACK: I like anything that is trying to do something different.
JACK: Suppose I was to make an interpretation of things you really believed in. It would be weak because those things are on such a grandiose scale, I can’t draw them. C&C: Who would you classify as your favorite artist? JACK: Well, I like them all, especially if they have their own distinct style. Neal Adams is one, Steve Ditko is another. C&C: Any of your favorite comics work being done now? 6
CARMINE: Beautiful. That’s Gray’s field.
Anything that tries to put new life into the strip, or upgrade the medium, is doing a good job.
C&C: Are you considering making the new books monthly?
C&C: Who thought of the black-&-white books?
CARMINE: I don’t know. If Jack’s books turn monthly, can Jack do all of the work by himself? I’m not going to ruin him. I’m not going to spread this guy so far that it’ll destroy him—and I won’t let anybody else do his characters. Nobody touches his characters! He knows what he’s doing with them.
JACK: I don’t know how these things start. They start with everybody. It might have been in your mind, too! CARMINE: No. It was in yours. It is a completely new approach to the visual medium. It will be composed of photographs, drawings, and writing. It’s very different.
JACK: Silver Surfer was taken out of my hands. I originated it because I had a reason for the Silver Surfer. Nobody else had a reason for him; I knew the Silver Surfer. Nobody else did.
C&C: Isn’t it something like Gil Kane’s Blackmark book? CARMINE: Nothing like that at all! This will be larger-sized books with black-&-white material.
CARMINE: Jimmy Steranko was offered the Fantastic Four and he turned it down. He said he wouldn’t presume to follow Kirby.
C&C: How big are you going on this? About 150,000?
C&C: Let’s say ten years from now the same thing happens at National that happened at Marvel, where your books are selling very well, and all of a sudden Jack Kirby says he wants to retire.
CARMINE: No. Much more. C&C: That is what happened to Savage Tales. They only printed 150,000 and they were hard to get. Neal Adams told me that Marvel dished out quite a bit of money because they were trying for a quality effect. They spent $6000 instead of the usual $3000. I don’t know if it’s true or not.
CARMINE: Then I wouldn’t presume to do those books, because nobody could do them as well. C&C: You’d drop them? CARMINE: Yes. Wouldn’t it be better for us to drop them than for the books to die themselves?
CARMINE: I’m going to tell you to look at Jack’s books and make up your own mind.
C&C: How could somebody like Marvel drop the Fantastic Four?
C&C: With the black-&-white books, are you trying for an adult market?
CARMINE: It’s going to die anyway.
JACK: I am trying for a universal market. It’s going to be rational for the adults and exciting for the kids. In other words, if an adult picks it up and he analyzes it as an adult should, he might find it interesting, whereas the kids will have the costumes, the action, the strange atmosphere, which I think every strip needs. Fantasy is interesting because it is a projection, an idealized version of everything we see and hear. I think that is what makes it interesting. For instance, if you see a tank I’ve drawn, or a car, it could never work, but it’s an interesting looking object. If you want to analyze my machines, they may be nothing more than a fantastic typewriter or a pencil sharpener.
C&C: I know. CARMINE: Would you rather die at your zenith or at your low end? First of all, he’s not going to retire in ten years anyway; I wouldn’t let him. JACK: Second of all, I think that even if I did retire, the comics would continue with the same feeling. CARMINE: He is planning to develop people for these books in case the need comes. He wants people developed to follow his thinking. C&C: Who got the idea for the Neal Adams Green Lantern book? The sales are dropping. I know they went up and now they’re dropping a little bit. I don’t know how true it is.
CARMINE: This is the beginning for comics. Only comics not as you know them. This is a whole new world; that’s why I’m here. That’s why Jack is here. On June 15, the first book we were talking about comes out. July 15, the second will be coming out. We’re doing our own thing. Jack wouldn’t be here if we were doing what everyone else is doing.
CARMINE: Who said that? C&C: Neal Adams. I heard that you are keeping it for prestige. I’d like to know how it got started.
C&C: Some comics, like Superboy, don’t have the same flexibility, or even attempt it—as long as they sell.
CARMINE: The Green Lantern was ready to be turned out when we were told to drop it, even though I wanted a few more issues. I said to Julie: “There’s something you wanted to try. I want this book as different as you could possibly make it.” We sat down with Denny and came out with it. The book was slowly rising. It went real high at one point. Then it sagged off again. If this book can give to us the public relations, if it can take this business and give us the solid citizen reputation, it should have not been considered junk, as it used to be. It will be worth everything we are putting into it. H
JACK: They are not made for a universal market. They are not aiming for my market. CARMINE: First of all, the Superboy and Lois Lane books—Lois Lane is made for the “girl” market. Superboy is the same thing. It’s at another level, though. You don’t mess around with a book like Superboy, which is selling over 500,000. That’s not saying what we will do tomorrow. I don’t know. Jack will develop his own line of books. It will have Jack’s stamp. We have some other stamps. You’ll buy these or you won’t—but to turn out [only] one stamp in a company, I can’t feel is very good. C&C: Did you like Gray Morrow on “El Diablo”? CARMINE: No, I did not like his artwork. I told him I didn’t. That does not mean that Gray is not a talented man. I thought that Gray should be on other things that he could do well. C&C: What did you think of his work on Witching Hour? 7
[previous page] New Gods #8, page 23 pencils (May 1972). [above] Carmine Infantino, as rendered by Neal Adams in the early 1970s.
Mark Evanier
JACK F.A.Q.s
A column answering Frequently Asked Questions about Kirby
[next page] Dr. Fredric Wertham’s 1950s anti-comics crusade (helped by the Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency with their 1954 comic book hearings) took down the venerable EC Comics line, as well and Simon & Kirby’s own Mainline Comics company. But what if Jack had ended up at EC (one of the few major companies he never worked for)? Just for fun, I took a couple of unused Simon & Kirby covers of that era, and turned them into EC cover layouts. Chris Fama ran with it from there, mimicking the Marie Severin-style coloring of the EC line, and relettering the word balloons to match EC’s mechanical Leroy lettering system. As for what the interior of those books might’ve looked like, you can get a sense of Kirby horror from S&K’s Black Magic stories (although they were never as grisly as EC’s most vivid horror tales). And since Wallace Wood was an EC mainstay, it’s fascinating to imagine what a Sky Masters-style pairing of the two would’ve looked like on EC’s science-fiction titles.
The following panel was broadcast on Comic-Con International’s YouTube channel as a part of Comic-Con@Home. Featuring Paul Levitz and Walter Simonson, and moderated by Mark Evanier.
2021 Comic-Con International Comic-Con@home Kirby Tribute Panel MARK EVANIER: Good morning, afternoon, or evening. My name is Mark Evanier. That’s Paul Levitz over there [above center]. That’s Walt Simonson over there [above right]. I’ll tell you a little about them in a minute, but first I want to tell you about a man named Jack Kirby [below]. I assume if you’ve tuned into this podcast, you know who Jack Kirby was. We are here to tell you that he was even more than you think he was. He was an amazing man. Very nice, very kind, very generous. He was the kind of man who, if you were around him, you felt more talented. You just felt more creative, and he inspired an awful lot of people, not just to write and draw comic books, but in all walks of life. I have met in my lifetime actors. I have met painters. I have met dancers. I once met a spot welder who claimed that Jack Kirby was the major influence on his life. [Levitz and Simonson laugh] And I do not think Jack in his life ever even knew what a spot welder did, but something about Jack’s work energized people and made them reach to be better, and he was a very influential person. Walt Simonson is among a small group of people— actually, it’s not that small—who I could name who I think did wonderful work, and still does, writing and drawing stories that capture some of the same energy that Jack had, that achieved a lot of the same goals, without imitating Jack. Walt, I’ve never seen in your work a swipe from Kirby. I’ve never seen a pose where I thought, “Oh, he’s imitating a Kirby pose” or a Kirby layout, but you still captured the same goal that 8
Transcribed by John Trumbull, and copyedited by Mark Evanier and John Morrow. You can view the video at: https://www. youtube.com/watch?v=3Sii1fFVoC4
Jack strove for of having dynamic, interesting art full of people that you cared about. And Paul Levitz I’m going to talk more about later, but Paul has held every managerial position you can have in the comic book field. Mostly at DC Comics, where he was part of a regime we’ll talk about, that changed DC Comics and the life of Jack Kirby substantially. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us for this podcast. Walt, when did you discover Jack Kirby work? And I want to narrow in on The New Gods if we can at some point. WALTER SIMONSON: Well, my first discovery, really, where I was taken by the work… I saw a couple of comics when I was a kid, the old Marvel monster books for Atlas Comics, but I didn’t know who Jack Kirby was. I don’t know that they were credited. And I was a freshman in college in 1964 or early ’65. I was in the dorm room of one of my friends, and they had a very well-read copy of Journey into Mystery, I think it’s #113 [right, Feb. 1965]. It’s the Grey Gargoyle’s return, where Thor gets turned
[mononucleosis] when I was four years old. Back then, no video games, no… we didn’t have a television. You know, lots of stuff. You’re not reading a lot when you’re four years old. I wasn’t, anyway. And so she gave me a little table, a lap table that sat on the bed. I could sit up and she brought a bunch of paper, my dad would bring used paper home from the office, and I would draw on it, and so my drawing really began when I was ill, and then after I got better, I just kept drawing. And so I had been drawing all the time by the time I’d discovered Marvel Comics. EVANIER: And who are the artists besides Jack Kirby that you liked when you were young? SIMONSON: Oh well, without knowing it, because none of the names… I was a kid in the ’50s. None of the names were [credited] on books. Alex Toth was one of them. Gil Kane would have been one of them. I didn’t see much [Steve] Ditko at the time. That came later. And beyond that, I just loved comics. I read every kind of comic I could find. Classics Illustrated—[Simonson hears some thunder booming over his house]. Whoa, that was a good crack of thunder—the movie adaptations. John Buscema, I loved without knowing. He did an adaptation of Helen of Troy, the [1956] Robert Wise movie [for Dell Comics], and it was beautifully drawn. And I loved it as a child. So there were a whole handful of books. And Little Iodine. I loved Carl Barks. I had no idea who Carl Barks was. I loved John Stanley’s work, who did Little Lulu. No idea who John Stanley was. So at the time, I just read a lot of books and I wasn’t very critical of the art. But I did know, for example, who the “Good Duck Man” was. I knew his work
back into a mortal for a while because Odin’s P.O.ed at him for still loving Jane Foster, and they really crammed a great deal into 16 pages. And I was a big Norse mythology fan. I had never seen a Marvel comic before, and I didn’t really know Jack’s work. And I was blown away by the comic, I was blown away by the fact that there was, “Oh my gosh, there’s a comic about Norse mythology! Wow!” And I didn’t care that he didn’t have a red beard, or he didn’t have red hair, or he didn’t have iron gauntlets—any of that stuff. I wasn’t a fan in that sense. I just loved it. I loved the fact that I could read it. The funniest part about it was it starts off with a big fight scene, and there’s a caption that says, “We promised ol’ Jack Kirby we’d let him start with a big fight scene and blah-blah-blah…”. It lasts about two pages. And at the time, I hadn’t looked at the credits. So I read that, and I thought, “Wow, some fan wrote in [Levitz and Evanier laugh] and said, ‘I’d love to see a giant fight scene’ and they did a giant fight scene for Jack Kirby!” And it wasn’t until, I don’t know, 20 years later, I was re-reading the comic at some point and I got to that I went, “Ohhh nooo…” [laughs] and I figured it out. But that was my introduction to Jack Kirby. And within about—what was that, #113?—seven months [later], I discovered where they sold Marvel Comics. And my first Marvel comic was Journey into Mystery #120 (Sept. 1965), a Loki/Absorbing Man story that Jack did, and I never looked back. EVANIER: Okay. When you read that first comic, were you drawing? Were you an artist of any sort at that point in your life? SIMONSON: I probably wouldn’t use the word “artist,” but I certainly… I’ve drawn since I was really younger than I can remember. My mom tells me I was about four. I had 9
[above] Detail from John Buscema’s 1956 Helen of Troy work for Dell Comics. [below] Once the three main characters were designed for Thundarr the Barbarian, Jack was recruited to flesh out most of the details of the series for RubySpears animation, circa 1980. [next page] At top is Dick Giordano’s drawing of Carol Fein for a house subscription ad, and at bottom is E. Nelson Bridwell in the DC Comics offices.
from reading it. I was also a big Alberto Giolitti fan without knowing it. I was a big Turok, Son of Stone fan, and he also had drawn a Zorro comic right before Disney took over the franchise. There were a handful of Zorro comics… [Everett Raymond] Kinstler drew a couple, I think. I’ve forgotten who the other artists [were], and Giolitti drew the last one. [“The Challenge of Zorro,” Four-Color #732 (Oct. 1956).] I loved… that was my favorite. I had that one. I loved the drawing. It was rich, liquid inking and drawing. And it wasn’t until years later, I went back and I’m familiar with Turok. I went back and I was looking at it one [day] and I went, “Good lord, I think this is Alberto Giolitti.” And I went and looked it up and I found [that] indeed it was. So I was a fan of lots of different artists with a variety of styles, and I absorbed as much as I could from all those guys at the time. EVANIER: I should point out to the viewers: First of all, Alberto Giolitti was an Italian artist who did a lot of work for Western Publishing on the Dell and Gold Key comics. People know him probably best for having a long run drawing the Star Trek comic books for them. I should also mention that Paul and Walter are in areas where it is raining, and it is thundering outside the Simonson residence right now, [Simonson laughs] which is appropriate when we’re talking about Thor. And I should also tell you if you haven’t watched a lot of podcasts, at this very moment, I don’t look like it,
but I’m looking at Walt. If I’m looking at Paul, it looks like I’m looking at Walt and if I’m looking at Walt, it looks like I’m looking at Paul. I actually am paying attention to my guests here. It’s just because of the way cameras work, it’s a little distracting. Now, Paul, you got into comics [at] what age? Remind me. PAUL LEVITZ: Got into as a reader or a professional? EVANIER: As a reader. LEVITZ: As a reader, probably around five years old. EVANIER: Yeah. That’s about where I was. I always tell people that when I was born, the doctor slapped me and I dropped a copy of Walt Disney’s Comics and Stories, but I was reading actively all that time. When you and I first met, Paul, you were publishing a fanzine called, I think, Et Cetera, and then it became The Comic Reader. I helped you out with that in the basement of your house in Brooklyn in the early ’70s. LEVITZ: Bless you. I may have offered you a slice of pizza in return. That was the usual pay. EVANIER: That’s right, yes. And I remember we also were sitting there for a while writing fake letters for letter columns for various comic books. [Simonson laughs] And then you came into management at DC Comics as an assistant editor, and then an editor, and there was a point there when you were in charge of who inked everything and when they had to have it in, and things like that, and eventually you ascended to… now, at one point you were the president, at one point you were the publisher or the other way around, or something like that. LEVITZ: I had something to do with running the company for a very long time. EVANIER: Okay. Now what was your exact position during the time the original New Gods books came out? LEVITZ: When the New Gods stuff started coming out, I was doing my fanzines. And one of the great treats was that Jack would send in the finished work. This was at the point that it had shifted from Vinnie [Colletta] inking it to Mike Royer, so it was coming in from Jack as a finished package.
10
EVANIER: So this would have been the middle of ’71 or so?
Almost everything that you people, you and Jenette and Dick, changed about the company was something that your predecessors had said they could not do. And as a result, we suddenly had a company now—and Infantino, to his credit, did start instituting some of this before he was removed—but suddenly we had a company that seemed much more creator-friendly. Not just to Jack Kirby, but to everyone. And you had people’s work not being tampered with as much, you had original art being returned, you had royalties being paid on reprints, you had incentives—whatever they called the payments for when your work sold very well—there were quite a few upgrades to the industry which, had they not been made, probably would have had an awful lot of talented people fleeing the industry. I don’t think some people have ever understood that you have to treat people well to get good work out of them. So there came a moment there that one of the major triumphs of changing the way the business was done for you, involved Jack Kirby. Because Jack was kind of being lured back to DC, having left in the latter days of Carmine’s administration, and I remember Jenette coming up to me at a San Diego Con saying, “Can you help us convince Jack Kirby to come back to DC Comics?” and actually she came up to me and asked me if I would like to write a New Gods comic for them. And I said, “I really would like nobody to write a New Gods comic book besides Jack Kirby.” And Walt, no offense to Walt, who later did some very fine ones, [Simonson laughs] but by that point, a lot of people had taken their shot at those characters. Tell me if you can, Paul, a little bit about… I remember Jenette came up to me and I asked her, “Did you look at the sales figures for New Gods?” and she said, “Yeah, it sold fine. It was a decent selling book. It shouldn’t have been canceled.” What was your understanding of that?
LEVITZ: Yeah. Early ’71, because the stuff was coming in ahead of when it was published, and that art would land on Carmine’s assistant’s desk. A woman named Carol Fein, who was basically another incarnation of Fran Drescher. [laughs] Carol had absolutely Drescher’s voice before Fran Drescher did. This wonderfully utterly booming and unfiltered Bayside, Queens accent that she was thrilled at any volume, and Carol was one of the people… she wasn’t a whole hell of a lot older. She was probably [in her] early 20s at that point. She was willing to put up with fans and be hospitable, and occasionally I would be able to be standing there and just flying through these pages that had just come in, of what was some of the most interesting work being published by DC at the time. EVANIER: One of the things we should mention here: There was a member of the DC staff in those days who doesn’t get any real recognition from Kirby fans for his contributions, but there was a man named E. Nelson Bridwell who was an assistant editor for DC, and he was kind of Jack’s liaison at times. In fact, for a while when Vince Colletta was inking Jack’s work, Colletta would turn the pages in to Nelson initially and Nelson would actually take the eraser, because Vinnie handed his pages in un-erased, and he would erase the pages, and he was becoming one of the people saying, “This man is not inking everything on the page,” and he called Jack. He actually called me a couple times saying, “Can you talk to Jack? They won’t listen to me.” Anyway... And he was one of the people really on Jack’s side back there. As not everyone was, because DC had a history of hostility to Marvel Comics at that point. There were people there who just felt that the DC comics were fabulous, the Marvel comics were garbage, and the worst thing you could say about a DC comic that was it looked like a Marvel comic. And when Jack Kirby drew it, it looked like a Marvel comic in many ways. Now, you ascended to more important positions within that company. And there came a point when Mr. Infantino, a fabulous artist whose art we all loved, was no longer the publisher and running DC, and there was an interim period there when it felt like nobody was running DC, and then in came a woman named Jenette Kahn. And you and Jenette eventually formed a team there that changed DC Comics—changed comics a lot, but changed DC Comics. You are too modest to say this, but I will say that prior to the advent of the Kahn/ Levitz, and to some extent Dick Giordano regime there, I had a very negative view of DC Comics from a managerial viewpoint. There were people at DC Comics who I did not feel treated the talent very well. Treated them as very expendable, treated them as very interchangeable, and Jack was arguing a lot with them about the way they treated him and everyone else. And I’ve kept finding these cases where Jack would say, “You know what you guys ought to do? You ought to do this for the talent, you ought to do this, you ought to do this,” and instead of saying what was probably the truth, which was, “We don’t want to do that,” they’d say, “We can’t do that. Legally, we can’t let you guys have your original art back. Legally, we can’t give you creator credits. Legally, we…”. There were all these reasons that all proved to be bogus.
LEVITZ: Well, I mean, that was one of the things that when I got access to the old sales records, I looked at myself as a comics fan. There were some things I was just curious about. The whole Fourth World group was doing fine. A lot of what went wrong in that period of Jack’s work had to do with what Carmine’s perception of what bringing Jack to DC would do. Jack was an enormous influence on Carmine as a young artist. He was the earliest, with Joe Simon, the earliest super-stars in the business—[Mark’s phone goes off with The Dick Van Dyke Show theme as the ringtone]—we’ve got triumphant sound effects every time their names are mentioned. And those guys had cover credit or got names that got used in the advertising—and, of course, Jack had done amazing things for Marvel through the ’60s into the early ’70s, and I think Carmine clearly viewed this as something… a moment that would be transformative for DC. And he paid Jack well by the hideous standards of the business at the time. But in order to pay Jack well, he turned to Vinnie [Colletta] and said, “I’ll give you a lot of extra inking to do. You like inking Jack. You did wonderful stuff on him years ago: Thor, some of the Fantastic Four work was pretty good. I’ll give you a lot of his pages, but I got to ask you to take a lower rate.” And Vinnie was happy to take it, but part of why he tended not to ink everything on the page is he was a very commercially-minded guy in terms of the 11
commerce of his own business, and if he Jenette Kahn, Christopher was getting paid essentially, in his mind, ‘x’ Reeve, & Sol Harrison sort entries for 1978’s Great dollars an hour, he’d give you ‘x’ dollars an Superman Movie contest. hour’s worth of work. If he could get away with doing a little less, maybe he would get away with doing a little less. And that showed in the work, to Jack’s frustration and certainly the frustration of a lot of other people. Certainly Nelson, who was there and had seen the pencils. But taking the big view of what you were talking about, Mark: When Jenette got to DC, she was a person of terrific creative spirit and terrific personal morality. She was a Rabbi’s daughter—I’ll give her dad a little bit of the credit for the morality—and in her own experience, she’d created a couple of magazines, most importantly something called Dynamite, and felt that she had not gotten a good business deal and ended up suing the company she had created it for, Scholastic, fighting over what her fair share was. That gave her a lot of sympathy for the creators’ situation. And the industry as a whole, which was very, very small at that moment in the late 1970s—probably 200 creative people, depending on how you define it, maybe a half dozen publishers of comics in America, all clustered around the New York area except for a handful of guys: you and your compatriots out in Los Angeles, doing funny animals for Western—everybody was very disenchanted. It was the period that led to a lot of the experiments that led to the graphic novel. Things like Gil Kane’s His Name is Savage, Blackmark. Things like Eisner’s own A Contract with God, or they were looking to get honest jobs somewhere else. Because this wasn’t a good living.
Kirby was not just monetary. There were people there who felt that Vince Colletta toned down Kirby’s style, and they didn’t like Kirby’s style. As I’ve told many times, the first time I visited the DC offices with my friend Steve Sherman, Sol Harrison, the production manager, sat us down and said, “You’ve got to get Jack to draw more like Curt Swan.” [Simonson bows his head in disbelief] And when Jack didn’t draw more like Curt Swan, they brought in other people to make his Superman look more like Curt Swan’s. That was an attitude there which I believe that your regime kind of expunged. People’s work did not get wholesale redrawn when you and Dick and Jenette were running the place—and Archie Goodwin and Denny O’Neil. There’s other people [who were] involved in management, we should say, there at various times. When people get mad at inkers, I think they forget the fact that every time Vince Colletta inked an issue of Thor, Stan Lee said, “Great job, Vinnie! Here’s the next one.” He didn’t sneak in in the middle of the night and steal the pages away to ink. He was assigned to them by his employer. And DC was very happy with what Colletta did inking Jack, and the fact that Jack was not happy with it didn’t matter to them until finally Jack made a fuss… Jack was very cooperative. He wanted to be a good team player. He also hated the coloring that he got from DC, and he learned early on that that was a dead issue, that the DC coloring department would not tolerate criticism of their work. And so he kind of went along with that. He had to pick the battles he would fight, and that was one he chose not to fight, although he did fight over the coloring of Mister Miracle’s costume. That was the one battle he won. Anyway, so now you guys are now remaking DC, trying to make it more creator-friendly, and Jenette is saying, among other things, “Gee, I wish we had Jack Kirby here.” She has looked at the sales figures on the old New Gods books, as you did, and seen… she said, “These should not have been cancelled.” And they immediately reinstated a New Gods project. I think… was it Don Newton who did the first one, I believe? [It was initially artist Mike Vosburg, along with writers Gerry Conway and Denny O’Neil, starting with 1st Issue Special #13 (Apr. 1976), before Newton and Conway produced New Gods #12 (July 1977).] And I think somebody kind of realized that… The New Gods, at that stage, The New Gods without Jack Kirby was like The Dick Van Dyke Show without Dick Van Dyke, or something of that sort. So, tell the story, if you could, about the financial arrangement that was made
EVANIER: And it also wasn’t an industry that looked like it would be around to some people for a long time. LEVITZ: Absolutely, yeah. A lot of the editors were saying, “Please Lord, let this last until my pension kicks in.” EVANIER: Let me back up and say a couple of things about Vince Colletta for a second, because I think Vinnie gets a raw deal sometimes. I felt he was the wrong inker for Jack, even when he took his time. I felt he was just the wrong guy stylistically. Walt, in your life you have sometimes been inked by the wrong person. [Simonson laughs] And I felt that. But one of the reasons Colletta was eager to grab the Kirby [Fourth World comics], that huge body of work, was that his specialty, romance comics, was dying out. DC had just cancelled two of their five romance comics and inserted lots of reprints into the others. So Vinnie suddenly had 60 percent less work, or whatever the statistic was. And secondly, the reason that DC wanted Colletta on inking 12
with Jack, because it’s fascinating. It was the first time in years that Jack Kirby had received anything from a comic book company but his flat ‘x’ dollars per page fee. LEVITZ: Well, by the early ’80s, we had put in place a system where if you had created a new character— either to add to a mythology, like the new Huntress into the Batman mythology, or an entirely new book—you would receive a percentage of the earnings from media or toy licensing or apparel licensing, or any sort of outside money. And this was designed to incentivize people to create more stuff, because we had a period in the industry where even the best talent were saying, “I’ll write Superman, but I’m just going to use the villains he’s got. I’m just going to use the characters he’s got, because I don’t want to give them something new. Because what do I get out of it? You’re giving me a flat page rate, I’ll give you a flat job.” And the idea was to change that mindset. And ultimately, to have royalties on the books, that said, “If we succeed, you succeed. And you will benefit along with us.” And it began to change not only DC, but the industry, because it basically forced Marvel to go along with it. Jim Shooter did a good job convincing the Marvel management that they had to, even though it was more expensive for them than it was for DC, because they were [selling better in those days]. SIMONSON: If I might interrupt just for a second, just to make an example of that: I drew a book, Uncanny X-Men and the New Teen Titans (Jan. 1982), one of the industry crossovers, the fourth of the [DC/Marvel] crossovers. Chris [Claremont] wrote it. Marvel produced it, so [Louise Simonson] edited it, Chris wrote it, I drew it, Terry Austin inked it, Glynis Wein and Tom Orzechowski colored and lettered it. At the beginning of that project, there were no royalties. So we were getting a flat rate for whatever the flat rate was, whatever my page rate was back then. And by the time that project came out and was published, the royalty plan— thank you, DC Comics—had been put into place. And essentially my income, whatever it was back then, went up by about a third. So, it was a really significant boost for a lot of freelancers, who were thrilled with royalties, and it was a big income maker for a lot of us, and it was also very incentivizing to start trying to bring in new characters and create situations that would improve the sales of the book. Because now you have a stake in it, which before, you had not. EVANIER: Walt, if that had never happened; if to this day, any comic book you drew was paid at a flat page rate, no reprint fees, no incentive for sales, or piece of foreign sales, would you still be in the business? SIMONSON: Well, I think I still don’t get any foreign sale money from Marvel Comics, I believe. So, I am still doing stuff [without that pay] occasionally. You know, it’s hard to say. Because my income would have been different, but I love doing comics. You mentioned earlier the idea that back in the ’70s, most of us on the freelancer end, thought comics were dying and that they were going to be gone in ten years. And a lot of us, money notwithstanding, me, Howard Chaykin, a bunch of other guys, we would talk about this. We loved doing comics and we thought,
“We want to do comics as long as the business is there, and once the business crashes and burns and fades away, then we’ll go find real jobs.” [Levitz and Evanier laugh] And so that turned out not to have to happen, fortunately. I’ve never had to get a real job, but I did find… I just do find doing comics for most of my—for all of my career—has been so much fun, that it was probably worth it to me one way or the other. What I might have done earlier than I have done, is I might have moved on and tried to do a creator-owned book of some kind, rather than doing as much material as I’ve done work-for-hire for the companies. But I’ve enjoyed the characters for work-for-hire. I’ve enjoyed the characters I’ve gotten to write and draw, and I’m completely happy with the way things worked out. Which I know… it’s hard to say whether it would have changed my attitude toward what I was doing, if it was really still flat rates and no royalties and not much in the way of reprint money. I don’t know how that would work out. EVANIER: You know, when I met Jack… I met Jack in 1969. And then in 1970, Steve Sherman and I took a visit to New York, where we went to spend a couple days at the DC offices, a couple days at the Marvel offices, a day-and-a-half with Steve Ditko, and three days at a Phil Seuling New York convention high atop what is now, and will soon no longer be, the Hotel Pennsylvania. I met, during those days, Carmine Infantino and Julie Schwartz and Robert Kanigher and Joe Kubert and Joe Orlando and Don Heck and Joe Sinnott and Gene Colan... I met everybody who had drawn a comic book or written a comic book I had loved—well, not everybody, but an awful lot of them—and I did not find a lot of people who wanted to remain in comics. They were doing it because it was, at that moment, their best way of making a living. But they were all eyeing the door. “What happens if this all collapses? What happens if I 13
[previous page and left] Copycat, a sample strip Jack prepared for Superworld Of Everything, his own experimental idea to move beyond conventional comic books. Inks by Evanier or Sherman. [below] Walter did pay homage to Jack on the splash page of Orion #5 (Oct. 2000).
LEVITZ: And not necessarily any more creatively rewarding. Advertising had its own miseries attached to it. It was a different psychosis. So, we had improved things from a certain point. We could not, for a variety of complicated business reasons, feel comfortable or put through the corporation, going back to the beginning of time and saying, “If you’ve created something at any point in the history of DC, we’ll give you a piece of the action.” Partly because there were some incredible properties like Superman and Batman that made the corporation so much money that they were not interested in giving up a greater piece of in the deal. In the early ’80s, because of Jack’s fight with Marvel over his original art, he was kind of a poster boy for having been mistreated. This was one of the great geniuses of the field. He was an old guy by this point. He was still working really hard in animation, but that was very visibly pushing a guy beyond what he should have to do. And he had given the industry so much, given all of us as readers so much, that Jenette and I, Dick, Joe Orlando—whose name we didn’t mention, another member of the DC team—all were very sympathetic to Jack’s situation, and we had an opportunity to place our toy line with a new partner. We’d done a big presentation and gone out to Mattel, gone out to Kenner. Those were the two big candidates. They were both very interested. We ultimately decided to go with Kenner, and one of Kenner’s frustrations when they looked at what we had to offer was, we didn’t have really great villains for our characters by comparison to what Marvel had over the years. A lot of the DC villains outside of the Batman villains were colorful, but not incredibly threatening or dangerous, and a lot of the… we didn’t have the grand cosmic villains that Marvel had. We hadn’t had Jack. And when that was clear, we said, “You know, it would be great to get Jack. And maybe we could use Jack’s characters that he’s already done for us, Darkseid and the whole Apokolips gang, and bring that into the story. Is there a way we can do this that we can
can’t generate work that pleases the current regime?” Whatever it is. And I looked at Jack Kirby, who was about as successful as you could get in terms of making money for your employer, and he was not counseling a career in comics. He was advising any kid who came to him with art samples to look [at] what else besides comics they could do. He famously told Wendy Pini, who was then Wendy Fletcher, “You’re too good to be in comics. If I catch you drawing comics, I’ll spank you.” [Simonson laughs] And when she did start doing comics, basically created her own comics, which were not an option when she met Jack, she kept going to Jack at the convention every year saying, “Jack, you want to spank me now? I’m drawing comics! You want to spank me?” [all laugh] Forrest Ackerman would have, but Jack didn’t do that. Anyway… I just felt the entire industry shift—not wholly because of what happened at DC, but because of the fact that anything was happening, that said there’s that thought that it was good business to be creator-friendly. And we’ve interrupted Paul getting to the meat of the story about Kenner toys and such, so go ahead, Paul. I’m sorry. LEVITZ: But again, finishing the background, I think part of the difference, part of why Walt’s expressing himself the way he is, there was a difference between the artists and the writers. The writers had a clearer point of view of where they might go. Maybe it was delusional. You know, Gerry [Conway] and Roy [Thomas] going off wanting to write movies. I remember Len [Wein] and Marv [Wolfman] at one point aspiring to write television like Laugh-In, not that they were ever going to go that route. There was animation writing… the number of places that an artist who was good at drawing comics could easily go was smaller than the number of places a writer could go. EVANIER: That’s true.
[below] StrikeForce, a never-produced 1980s Ruby-Spears animation concept. [next page] Super Powers II, #3 pencils (Nov. 1985).
14
justify giving him the piece of the action that we give the current team?” He only created it a few years before our cut-off. It’s not like we’re giving up money we’re already making, because we haven’t yet started to license these characters. So, we came up with the idea, and I don’t remember which of us came up with it, but we collectively came up with the idea of commissioning Jack to do some “redesign work,” some fresh thinking on the characters, that would justify going back and doing a deal to give him the same kind of equity, as though he created it now. That wasn’t popular with all the older creators. I remember a very passionate letter from the spouse of one of the great creators of the business, quoting the “Since ’76, since ’76, since ’76” and sort of “Why not us?” when the announcement was out about Jack. Which I could be personally very sympathetic to, but I couldn’t solve. But we could hide behind that redesign moment, and we negotiated a… that’s basically standard for our deal at the time, but probably a more sophisticated, more complex contract, because Jack by that time was represented by real lawyers and protective of his interests. A deal that would provide him with a share—and that meant that he got a share of the Kenner toys. He also got a share, which is probably the larger money, of all of the Hanna-Barbera episodes of Super Friends or Super Powers that they incorporated Darkseid into. Jack made very good money as an artist most of his career because, by an early age, he was getting the best rates in the business, because he deserved them. And he was faster than pretty much everybody else in the business. And he was harder working than anybody in their right mind in the business. EVANIER: [laughs] Yes. LEVITZ: So, he could produce more work in a day than some artists produce in a week, or Walter can produce in several weeks. [Walter looks innocent] EVANIER: Let’s talk about that for a second. Walt, when you were drawing a comic that was comparable in art density to Jack Kirby, how many pages a week would you output?
then called typewriter paper, and would now be copier paper, but he would draw it and on the early “Manhunters”, the first couple at least, I think I just pretty much followed his layouts as a way of getting all that stuff in. But we figured out pretty rapidly, or I figured out, we had to do a lot of panels. So, I have some pages in there that are probably anywhere like 14, 15, 16 panels. There are a few splashes here and there. But I learned a great deal about cramming a lot of stuff in and trying to make it readable at the same time. And that was a bi-monthly book. That was in the back of Detective Comics. It was a bi-monthly comic, and it took me pretty much all of two months to pencil and ink one chapter of “Manhunter”, which is eight pages long. So roughly a week a page.
SIMONSON: You know, you get asked questions about how long it takes to do stuff occasionally, and I don’t really keep a timer on stuff, so when I give you an example, a couple of examples, they’re very different. I did a strip called “Manhunter” back in the very beginning of my career. I began doing that when I was six months into my career. And there are plenty of people that think that’s still the best work I ever did, and they might not be wrong. But essentially, Archie Goodwin, who wrote it and who proposed this strip, he and I worked together on it. He asked me to draw it as a very young artist, and we were doing essentially 20-page stories in an eightpage format. There was a lot in there. And so, I learned… well, in the very beginning, Archie, he often did this anyway, I think, not just with me. He would draw thumbnails for each page on what was
EVANIER: Okay, but if somebody came to you and said, “We need you to pencil an issue of Thor with the same kind of tightness and detail that was handed to one of Jack’s inkers,” how long would it 15
same stuff. If somebody came to you and said, “Walt, here’s your contract. We want you to pencil 15 pages a week,” you couldn’t have done that, could you? SIMONSON: Well, I couldn’t do it now. I had an assistant briefly, where I was late on an issue of the Fantastic Four. It had to be done. I had to do it. I work in a series of steps, and I was able to—this was a guy who could draw quite well—I was able to have him do little structure drawings I could lightbox, and then I could do my own stuff as well, and I had one day. And as you may know, if you have one great day, you always think, “Oh, I can have this day again.” And really, there’s no chance you will ever have that day again. And so, there was one day where I got up in the morning, I was at the board by seven. I quit at 1:00 in the morning. I took time out to go to the bathroom and eat dinner, eat food, and by the time I was done that day, I had 14 pages of pencils done. LEVITZ: Wow. SIMONSON: I will never do that again in my life and I never did it before that. I will never do it again. I know if I really had to crunch it… when I was doing Thor for Marvel… I tend to work with a deadline, the buckshot of the deadline, getting closer to me. If the buckshot’s a good distance away, I’m not working that hard. If the buckshot is coming right up to my rear end, I’m working much harder. And so, I would do, say, four pages of Thor pencils, I could do four pages of Thor inks in a day, but only in the last week, [Evanier laughs] right before it had to be turned in. But not in the regular course of things. EVANIER: Well, okay. take you to pencil… what deadline would you be comfortable with drawing that story? Twenty pages, let’s say.
[above] Marker sketch done for the 1979 Dallas Comic Con. This was accidentally printed flopped in that event’s program book. [next page] Jack’s design for “Gore” (a riff on “Igor”), the mad scientist’s assistant in the Superfriends episode, “The Superfriends Meet Frankenstein.” He was renamed “Gork” when it aired November 3, 1979 (inset).
SIMONSON: Well, I could certainly… if I sit down and work—and now that I’m old, I don’t work anywhere near as hard as I did when I was younger [Levitz laughs]—but back in the day when I sat down and worked, I could crank out… I mean, I could do a page in a day. EVANIER: Okay. All right, that’s all I need to know, is a page in a day. Okay. SIMONSON: I could do that. EVANIER: Jack was doing three pages a day of that kind of work, generally speaking. SIMONSON: I mean, that’s more John Byrne’s speed. John was doing about three pages a day when he was really working on the FF. I’ve done more than a page in a day, but mmm, I’d rather not, because I want to take a little more time on this stuff. EVANIER: Now, Jack’s deal at DC, for most of the time when he was doing The New Gods and then on to Kamandi, The Demon, and those other books, was 15 pages a week. He occasionally did more, but he had a minimum. He got paid a lump sum, that lump sum presumed he would do 15 pages a week. Plus, he got paid as the editor and writer of the books as well, money he did not get at Marvel for doing essentially most of the 16
SIMONSON: So, two pages in a day would be... that’d be a full day for me. EVANIER: All right, good. Now Paul… what did I interrupt to ask that question here? [laughs] I’ve lost the train [of thought]. LEVITZ: Well, you know, we had this long feeling about being able to step in and do something that would help Jack. EVANIER: Yeah. LEVITZ: And it helped DC as well, because we did get a lot of use out of Darkseid as a character. They were terrific characters, obviously. You know, and I don’t think the money that we paid Jack as royalties on all of that was particularly life-changing. Jack had made a lot of money as an artist… EVANIER: No, no, it was. It was in the sense that it was the right money for a change. It was something. There was a quote that came around the business. Maybe you said it, or maybe somebody put words into your mouth, at some point at that time. It said, “We just paid Jack more money for Darkseid than Marvel paid him for all the other characters combined,” or something like that. Do you remember that quote? Did you say that, or…? LEVITZ: Yeah. I used that line at the time in some fashion or another. But that wasn’t a very high threshold, you know. But that point… EVANIER: But it was still a principle that your prede-
lars for my cameo. [Evanier and Simonson laugh] That’s the royalty check that will buy you McDonald’s. And then there’s a royalty check that will buy you a nice dinner, which feels a little better. And then I remember sending Weezie her check for her work on the “Death of Superman” stuff. That was such a success that I insisted on mailing out the checks with handwritten notes to the key people who had done it. I don’t know that you could’ve bought the house for the check, but you could have bought a house for the check.
cessors at that company had said would never happen. And other people at Marvel had said, “We cannot do that.” LEVITZ: The difference was not that it let Jack buy a swimming pool. It let Jack feel like he was being treated a different way. EVANIER: But it also meant to a guy who was having trouble with one of his eyes, and was having health problems, “There’s a possibility I can get money for not filling pages. It’s a possibility that down the line, there will come money in for my family that isn’t ‘x’ times the number of pages that I hand in.” And that was very meaningful to a guy who’d have been told over and over and over again, “We cannot do that.” Who had basically kind of trapped him[self] until he found that escape hatch into animation. He felt enormously trapped. That’s why Jack did so many stories about prisoners and escape artists in his career. He felt enormously trapped in The Village of The Prisoner, and that he just could not break down that little barrier of the company saying, “We only pay for filling up pages.” You were paying them for something other than filling up pages, and some of those sums did become… they may have seemed trivial to DC Comics, they may have seemed trivial from your viewpoint, but you know, Jack would get a check, and it’s like, “There’s braces for my kids.”
EVANIER: The reason why Walt is grinning is Weezie, for those of you who don’t know, is Louise Simonson, wife of Walt and a very fine editor and writer of comics on her own. There. Okay, go ahead. SIMONSON: I was thrilled to be married to a woman who was making more money than I was. [Evanier laughs] LEVITZ: Good plan. And better looking, too! Perfect. SIMONSON: Absolutely! EVANIER: Mel Brooks once said he married Anne Bancroft because he wanted to marry someone who made more money than he did. [laughs] So yes. LEVITZ: But you know, there’s scale to all of these things. The difference for the business in all of this was that we created an atmosphere where putting in the extra effort could benefit the person, as well as benefit the company. Most of the time it didn’t. You know, comic book people are enormously creative, are insanely hard working on average. And the vast majority of what gets created didn’t go anywhere for decades. Maybe now, lots of stuff is moving through the rest of the media world and generating some more money, but that wasn’t true for a very long time. But we created a world that said, “We’re all going to win together if we win at all.” And that got a lot of people to stay a little longer, to take a bigger chance, and to feel better about these things. It doesn’t mean that everybody felt that they were rewarded properly in the process, or that the exact deal was right at the time. There’s no magic single right deal. But before we did those things, there were individual deals with very small start-up companies that were very creator-friendly. But there wasn’t a serious player in the game saying, “The right way to do business is to treat these people the same way that an author would be treated in book publishing, or that a serious creator would be treated in film or television. They should have a stake in what’s going on.” And every one of these industries has instances where they abuse the creators, and every industry has examples where they treated some great creator well or badly, but we didn’t do this just as deals for two or three hot people at the time. It wasn’t just that Frank Miller is the star of the day, so he’s got “The Frank Miller Deal.” It was everybody who’s working for us will have a chance to succeed on pretty much the same terms. And that, I think, was really one of the major reasons for the turnaround in the comics industry in the ’80s. Not the only reason; there were a lot of different factors, but it really changed the atmosphere for the creative people of DC, Marvel, and empowered the creative community to take chances they wouldn’t have taken otherwise. It’s work that I’m very, very proud of. I could not have accomplished it without Jenette. We were a terrific team. She was the idealist who would fight for things that previous publishers, previous executives would not have thrown themselves on the sword to fight for. And I was the structuralist who understood the ways that, “Well, if I take a dollar from this pocket, I can label the dollar over here differently and the company will still have the same or greater profitability, and we’ll have a better chance to do better, and if I make it look like this, it’ll be more palatable to the parent corporation, and we can make the system work that way.” So it was fabulous teamwork.
LEVITZ: Oh yeah. EVANIER: “There’s health insurance. There’s a big payment on the mortgage,” whatever it is. That is meaningful for a guy who was so vested in doing right for his family. LEVITZ: I think most of the years when the Kenner line and the Super Powers show was on, the check was certainly large enough to buy a nice car every year. I mean, it was not large enough to buy a nice house, but if you think of sort of your orders of magnitude. Sometimes I got a royalty check for the one cameo that I did in Frank [Miller]’s Spirit movie and my residual check was eleven dol-
17
Jack’s collage for the conclusion of the Hunger Dogs graphic novel.
EVANIER: I should mention here briefly, and this is not going to sound like it’s about Jack Kirby, but it is. I have in my head a number of mental images—I have a very good memory, back to my childhood and meeting people, and like that. And I remember one of the first people I met in comics was Jerry Siegel. I’d go visit Jerry and Jerry was very angry—this is 1969, ’68 even, actually—about the way he was treated by DC Comics. He was being treated like an enemy. It was almost like, “How dare you give us our most valuable property, sir?” And he would start telling me about how DC had treated him, and he would start turning like—it was like Bill Bixby about to turn into Lou Ferrigno. He was getting angry. And I would change the subject for fear—I just didn’t want to be there when Jerry Siegel had a stroke. And I’d calm him down. Flash forward to many, many decades later and I’m in Jerry’s and Joanne’s apartment in Marina del Rey, a beautiful condominium, and Jerry is at great peace and happy. And I mentioned Paul Levitz, and he said, “Oh, Paul’s been so good to us.” I could not have conceived of a day at one point when Jerry would do anything but curse the name of anybody who got a paycheck from DC Comics. This was about four weeks before Jerry passed, and on a personal level I got to see him having come full circle to a place of peace and feeling appreciated and feeling like he had won something, that he got something out of Superman besides the money he got in the ’40s. It was the same thing with Jack, though Jack felt very well treated by DC and such. And on a personal level, I was very grateful to the regime here I’m talking about, for making that change in time for Jack Kirby to benefit from it so much. Now, I want to talk also about a moment; DC began reprinting… the creator friendly part of it got Jack back to do The Hunger Dogs graphic novel and to do some other little projects for DC. And he did a Super Powers mini-series that he worked on, and such. He
would probably never have come back there for the old regime. And then at some point, DC began reprinting The New Gods. There was a series of three paperbacks which now look very primitive. They were in black-and-white with gray tones on them, reprinting The New Gods, Forever People, and Mister Miracle. I remember you, Paul, and a couple of other people there calling to consult with me, and I wrote the Forewords or the Afterwords for them. “We can’t really at this point gamble on putting The New Gods out in reprint in color, but we’re going to put them out in this black-and-white format.” And they came out, and I was back in New York one day, and I was talking to you and Jenette, and both of you said to me, “The sales figures on these Kirby paperbacks are wonderful. We should have done them in color. We will do them over again in color in a few years. These are enormously [successful]. People are flocking to these books. They’re selling very well.” And I said to you, “Is it okay if I call Roz Kirby and tell her that?” and you said, “Sure, fine.” So, I went down, and I used Julie Schwartz’s phone because he wasn’t in the office that day, and I called Roz, and I told her, “I’m up at DC, and they just told me…” and I quoted what you guys had said. And Roz started crying. And she started saying over and over, “Well, Jack always said they’d be a hit. Jack always said they’d be a hit.” Because that was a sticking point in their lives, that people were dismissing those books as failures. And one of the reasons I wanted you on this podcast, Paul, is I want people to hear from someone who saw the actual sales figures, that those books were not disasters and flops in the first place. And also, let’s remember, DC was in a lot of turmoil because of the 25-cent price tag, which took the sales down on everything, and Marvel was getting better distribution, and Marvel was just mopping the floor with DC on everything at that point. But when I told Roz that the books, The New Gods was selling well, and that DC was 18
going to reprint them in color soon on even better paper, she started crying and she was so happy about that. She passed away a couple weeks after that and I was very proud that I had gotten to tell her that. I get weepy if I start talking about this, so I’m gonna change the subject here. And now DC has reprinted The New Gods over and over again. And it’s like, “Okay, how much can we charge for it this time?” [laughs] I’ve had people at DC call me and say, “Can you think of anything else we can put in there to make this new? Is there anything else we can reprint?” People will keep asking me, “Do you have a lot of Jack’s preliminary sketches for those books?” I go, “No! He never did any!” [Simonson laughs] But those books have generated a ridiculous amount of income for DC in reprints. One of the many people doing the reprints said to me, “God, we wish we had a hundred issues of that stuff. We’d make a fortune with it today.” It is now very commercial and beloved, and it was the hit Jack always said it would be. And I am so happy. I have behind me—you can’t quite see it in this camera angle— I’ve got a shelf with all those reprints on it, all the Kirby reprints. It’s on the shelf of my work, but I don’t consider that my work, I consider that work I just look at to smile. Because Jack knew that the books would be out in hardcover deluxe fancy library type editions for people who didn’t just want to read it, but wanted to own it, and maybe pass it on to their kids like a treasured book from your childhood. They love that material and it’s getting reprinted with beautiful printing. They sent me the proof sheets of the upcoming reprints of The Hunger Dogs, and said, “What do you think Jack would have thought of this coloring?” and the coloring is excellent. It’s very good. It’s very well done. I’m very happy with that part of it. I wish Jack was here to reap benefits from—I wish Jack was here, period. Anyway...
in, and I didn’t plan to show this. Here’s a photo I’ve got up here. This is me and Jack, Jack and I, however you want to put it, at one of the earliest comic conventions in California [above]. This is from, I believe, the Disneyland Comic Convention of 1971 at the Disneyland Hotel. Those are, I think, the second and third issues of New Gods and Forever People Jack is signing there, so it may even be earlier than ’71, even. Well, they came out at the end of… yeah, Mister Miracle started in January, so these issues came out probably around May or June of ’71, and he had a whole line of people there. I’m sitting next to him, because Roz used to sit next to him and stop him from doing sketches for fans. [Simonson laughs] And every so often she had to go to the ladies room. She’d say, “Mark, sit here and say no to people while I’m gone.” And so as I get weepy for remembering my time with Jack, that is there. Then I also have this photo here that was taken either by Steve Sherman or me. Here’s a photo you guys probably haven’t seen [below]. In 1969, I worked with Jack on a Toys for Tots campaign. You may have seen that poster Jack did for the Toys for Tots campaign, where Marvel characters were encouraging people to give toys to this charity, and they had a big reception at the Brown Derby restaurant in Hollywood, the famous Brown Derby, and Jack was there, and we took this picture. I think either Steve or I took it. Those are three guys who had been hired to make personal appearances in costumes. The Captain America costume is actually the costume that Dick Purcell wore in the 1940-whatever movie serial. [1944. – JT] They cut a hole for his ears to peek out and put new wings on the costume, but the costume itself was that costume. And they had somebody make costumes for Spider-Man and Thor. And we said, “Jack, would you pose with these guys?” and Jack went into his own little super-hero pose there. And I just thought that was adorable. We are just about out of time here. Is there anything we haven’t said about Jack Kirby that either of you wants to say?
LEVITZ: When you say you wish Jack was here, Mark, the one thing I have to point out: Because of what we did at that time, every one of those editions has generated money for Jack’s family. EVANIER: Right. LEVITZ: Now, the success they had in the litigation against Marvel makes it irrelevant to their financial futures, but had that not happened… first of all, it’s wonderful that the work survived. Out of everything that was published by every publisher in comics in 1970– 1971, 98 percent of it is mercifully forgotten. And that’s normal for media, right? But of the one or two percent that has survived, Jack has an enormous share, and The New Gods and Fourth World material is probably the high point. But because of how we changed things, if Jack’s family was the normal set of descendants of an artist in the normal set of circumstances, those checks would matter. And one of the things that disappoints me about how the industry has changed in the years since I was at an executive desk, is you see more and more frequent contracts that limit the amount of time that companies are obliged to pay for reprints. And I find it sinful, frankly. If the amounts are trivial, yes, there should be an escape clause where you’re not sending $11 checks to people ’til the end of time. That’s perfectly reasonable. I can live without my McDonald’s residuals. But if the work is brilliant enough to survive, creators should be continuing to benefit as long as there’s still people queuing up to buy it and make money for the companies. And it’s one of the sadder ways the industry has backtracked in the last few years, in my humble opinion.
SIMONSON: I will say one thing, just because we’re talking about the Fourth World material. I was reading Marvel Comics at the end of the ’60s. I’d read from the middle of the ’60s. I began shifting over toward DC at the very end of the ’60s and the early ’70s. They were trying lots of stuff, and I was interested in all of it. A lot of it didn’t last very long—shorter than the Fourth World. But I knew Jack Kirby. And I was extremely excited as a reader when I heard that Jack was going to DC. And I can only say—what was the first issue that came out? Weren’t there three issues of Jimmy Olsen that came
EVANIER: I concur a lot, and I’m glad you said some of that, Paul, because I was going to try to lead you into saying it. [laughs] Well, as I’m sitting here, we’re running out of time, but I have the controls in front of me that handle the cameras of these podcasts and cut between people. I have a whole bank here of photos that I can pop 19
out before the other books began?
Frank Miller once—we were studio mates for a while—we were talking and he said, and you can argue about this or not, but he kind of felt that the Fourth World work, in some ways, was the first really independent comic to come out. And it wasn’t so much that it was published by an independent publisher, but because it spoke so deeply from the heart of the creator in a way that was not necessarily as true for a lot of the comics, at least back at that time. So, I’m just such a huge fan of that material. I’m thrilled as much of it came out as did. I’m sorry no more of it came out. I’m especially sorry hearing about the sales figures. But it did explode the top of my head at the time, and it was just great.
EVANIER: He did three Jimmy Olsens. Yeah, yeah. SIMONSON: And I can remember buying that first issue of Jimmy Olsen quite eagerly at the time and reading it. And reading about the Hairies and the Mountain of Judgment and the Wild Place, or whatever it was called [the Wild Area – JT], and all that just blew the top of my head off. It was everything I had hoped it would be. I thought, “Oh my God, I’m enjoying a Jimmy Olsen comic! I can’t believe it.” [Evanier and Levitz laugh] So I just want to say that. And the Fourth World stuff… I mean, I love a lot of Jack’s work. I love all of Jack’s work, but the Fourth World stuff is probably my favorite Kirby work.
EVANIER: Yeah. It was a very wonderful body of work. And I’ve had people come to me constantly to tell me how much that changed their lives personally, or creatively, [or] both. A lot of people got into comics because of it. We were told at the time that it was the first—I’m trying to phrase this—the most notable time when a sales jump in comics could be attributed to the change of creative personnel. One of the few times that the change of artist or writer mattered visibly in the sales. It was this huge jump up. And it was an independent comic in the sense that—independent comments are kind of typified by the fact that usually, only one guy or one team can do them. You can’t have a fill-in if—you know, Robert Crumb couldn’t have done a fill-in issue on Zap Comix. [Simonson laughs] Well, I guess that book, it was an anthology, but once you started— the Pinis couldn’t have had a fill-in by a different writer and artist on ElfQuest #3, or something like that. It was distinctly the work of, in this case, one man basically. And he changed the whole dynamic of that comic, upsetting those who were sorry that Jimmy had not turned into a Giant Turtle-Man that issue or something. But Jack just was a guy who changed the industry everywhere he went. Usually for the better, and frequently against the will of the industry at the time. So anyway, gentlemen, I thank you for spending this time with me. I hope the storm has passed where you are. SIMONSON: I’m good.
Pencils from Superman’s Pal Jimmy Olsen #139 (July 1971)—unfortunately from a less than ideal photocopy.
20
EVANIER: Thank you all for joining in on this panel. This will stay up online for a long time and if you enjoyed it, tell other people to watch this panel. They will learn something about Jack Kirby and comic history from it. Thank you, guys. Thank you everybody for being with us. H
ANalysEZ by & © J. David Spurlock
J
Simple Business Killed Jack’s Masterpiece 1971 Disneyland Comic Con (l to r): Mike Royer, Jim Steranko, Jack Kirby (standing), Carmine Infantino, and Alex Toth.
[below] DC house ads trumpeting Jack’s new 1970s series.
ack Kirby, credited by many as co-creator of the Marvel Universe, rocked the comic-book world a number of times throughout his long career. But none more than when he left Marvel in 1970 to go work with his old friend Carmine Infantino, who had risen to become publisher at DC/ National. Kirby created his most fantastic story-arc ever that crossed over four books: New Gods, Mister Miracle, Forever People, and surprisingly, Jimmy Olsen. The opus came to be known as Kirby’s Fourth World and introduced one of Kirby’s greatest villains, Darkseid! The series inspired a generation of Marvel readers (to start buying DC comics) and George Lucas’ Star Wars. All those readers were dazed and grief-stricken when the flagships New Gods and Forever People were unexpectedly cancelled. Fans and historians have debated for decades how or why such a thing could happen. Infantino was very invested in bringing Jack to DC and securing for him a far better contract than he ever had at Marvel. For those new books to fail would make Carmine look bad to his corporate bosses at Warner Brothers. Carmine always maintained that the books being cancelled would make him look bad to WB for supporting Jack, but that continuing to publish a less than profitable book would be even worse—though he did keep them going for a few more issues after initial sales figures came in.
quantities of hot new issues. For diehard collectors of current comics, nothing was hotter than early issues of Kirby’s Fourth World books. Many backdoor, loading dock deals were made and not reported, nor percentages paid to the publisher. The new honor/ affidavit system made it easy to hide or not report some sales. Robert Beerbohm was a pioneer comicshop dealer and has reported on such for years. Issues by Kirby, Neal Adams and Steranko were the most sought out and affected.
Affidavit Fraud
Long-held tradition was that local distributors ripped the titles from covers of unsold copies, and sent them back to the publisher (or national distributor) for credit. But around 1969, the industry dropped that in favor of an honor system, with signed affidavits swearing what copies were unsold and supposedly destroyed. At that time, comic books were becoming hot collectables and fledgling dealers started seeking out local distributors for wholesale rates on
Questions and mourning continued regarding the canceled Kirby “Fourth World” books and after decades, a later top DC executive Paul Levitz said he saw the early-1970s sales numbers, and while they weren’t great, they weren’t so low as to require quick cancelation. That added new fuel to the fire of speculations of something mysterious. Just recently, author-historian Sean Howe posted a 1983 clipping from Comics Buyer’s Guide [see next page] quoting DC as saying their related licensing company had played a part: “Kirby was told that the reason his DC ‘Fourth World’ books were cancelled despite reportedly good sales was that Licensing Corporation of America had told DC there was no possibility of merchandising the characters.” Jamie Coville reminded me of Mark Evanier’s “Conversation with Paul Levitz” [transcribed elsewhere in this issue] which includes a few pertinent points: Mark recalled a Licensing Corporation of America rep attending the Disneyland Convention in 1971, pushing Jack that his Fourth World characters would never inspire licensing like what traditional DC characters (Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman) enjoyed. So that is first-person eye-witness testimony that supports exactly what DC said again, a dozen years later in the 1983 CBG article. There is also confirmation from Paul that, as Carmine secured for Jack a very good paying contract, the Fourth World titles’ numbers were scrutinized more than a title with lower costs (and/or licensing income) which, as they cite, was an impetus for Vince Colletta’s package deal to ink all the Fourth World line at a 21
discounted-forquantity rate. There is also confirmation in the Evanier/Levitz interview that Carmine and Neal Adams (frequently as a team) were the guys that often broke through the antiquated, stagnant mentality at DC coming from the old-guard editors and production head Sol Harrison. All of this supports my points here. It is/was all regular business. Though as Paul said elsewhere, Jack’s first-run Fourth World series did okay numbers—nothing great— but not what would automatically kill any series. I am stating what should now be obvious to all; Jack’s Fourth World had a higher bar to succeed: 1) Higher costs 2) No licensing income, and 3) Missing income from local distributor affidavit fraud This meant Kirby’s first-run Fourth World books had to produce more (paid) sales than many other books did to show the same profit. What would have been ho-hum but tolerable for a book with lower costs and/or that benefited from any licensing income, and/ or did not suffer from the higher level of affidavit fraud the Kirby books experienced, was not acceptable sales to keep the well-paid superstar co-creator of the Marvel Universe on ho-hum-selling titles. DC rightfully expected, not better work from Jack—as he was in the midst of a masterpiece—but better sales, putting profits into Warner Brothers’ coffers. That solves what many have long considered a “mystery.” H
HELP THE KIRBY MUSEUM BUILD ITS COLLECTIONS WEBSITE: kirbym.us/e/coll Design for the new Kirby Museum Collections website is underway, with thousands of images and catalog data to encourage the study of Jack Kirby. Donate to make this available for historians, researchers, the media, and every Kirby enthusiast in the world! The Jack Kirby Museum and Research Center is organized exclusively for educational purposes; more specifically, to promote and encourage the study, understanding, preservation and appreciation of the work of Jack Kirby by:
Annual Memberships with one of these posters: $50
• illustrating the scope of Kirby’s multi-faceted career, • communicating the stories, inspirations and influences of Jack Kirby, • celebrating the life of Jack Kirby and his creations, and • building understanding of comic books and comic book creators. To this end, the Museum will sponsor and otherwise support study, teaching, conferences, discussion groups, exhibitions, displays, publications and cinematic, theatrical or multimedia productions.
Captain America—23” x 29” 1941 Captain America—14” x 23”
or this: $70
Jack Kirby Museum & Research Center PO Box 5236 Hoboken, NJ 07030 USA Telephone: (201) 204-0532 Board Of Trustees Tom Kraft: President Ra ndolph Hoppe: Treasurer/Acting Director Mike Cecchini: Secretary [top] Initial 1970 house ad teasing Kirby at DC Comics, and (above) the article on Jack’s 1980s DC return, from Comics Buyer’s Guide #514 (September 23, 1983).
All characters TM © their respective owners.
22
Fighting American print silkscreened in Switzerland 23” x 19”
*Please add $10 for memberships outside the US, to cover additional postage costs. Posters come “as-is” and may not be in mint condition.
Re-Redux
New Gods ’77! by Tom Scioli
[right and next two pages] Tom morphed pages from Eternals #17 (Nov. 1977) to create this loving continuation of Jack’s Fourth World epic—a brilliant glimpse at what it might’ve looked like if Jack were still on New Gods in 1977.
I’m
a Jack Kirby fan, especially of his New Gods and the related 1970s DC comics. I always wanted to read the great epic battle between Darkseid and Orion that was promised in the original comics and in the preview images leading up to the New Gods revival in the ’80s. “The Greatest Comic Ever Written! Armagetto: The Last Battle of the New Gods! The Total Power of Darkseid against the power of total destruction, ORION!” The promotional poster and the cover to the New Gods reprint issue #6 were full of apocalyptic imagery of a final clash between power beings. The eventual big fight in the new chapter in New
Gods Baxter issue #6 “Even Gods Must Die” was well-staged, meaningful, and full of surprises, but it wasn’t the epic slugfest that many fans, myself included, had envisioned. In Jack’s 1985 Graphic Novel finale The Hunger Dogs, Darkseid and Orion don’t lay a finger on each other. Maybe that’s what Jack had planned all along and the talk of a prophesied final battle between father and son was a deliberate misdirection, so that the twist ending would be a complete shock. In any case, Jack did such a good job selling the idea of a “Last Battle in Armagetto,” that some fans, and even some pros, have created their own versions of what that final clash might have been—see Walter Simonson’s Orion #5. I’d been doing a lot of thinking about “Even Gods Must Die” and Hunger Dogs as part of my series of “New Gods Sunday School” videos on the Total Recall Show Channel on YouTube. I actually have come to admire the way Kirby subverted expectations with those final New Gods stories, and created a genuinely surprising and profound ending. But the New Gods Superfan in me still wants that big fight, a fight on par with Kirby’s greatest battles, something akin to Thor versus Hercules, or the New Gods’ own tussles between Orion and Kalibak. Just recently, I was reading Eternals #17 for the umpteenth time. It’s a fun, but forgettable issue of The Eternals, diverging from the much more interesting path the series had been following until editorial interference led it into a more predictable series of slugfests—first with a cosmic-powered Hulk robot, and then with a powerful mummy god named Dromedan. On this re-reading, I was thinking how, with a few adjustments, this battle with Dromedan could be a version of an epic final battle with Darkseid. Perhaps, had New Gods 23
24
25
continued uninterrupted, Jack might have been getting around to that battle in 1977, the date of this Eternals comic. It might’ve looked something like this, especially with Mike Royer doing the inks. Replace Dromedan and his mind control powers with Darkseid and the Anti-Life Equation, and you get a fragment of a lost issue of New Gods. I took this sequence from The Eternals by Jack Kirby with Mike Royer’s inks and transmogrified it into a New Gods page, an epic battle with Darkseid, rather than Dromedan. I turned Makkari into Lightray and Ikaris into Orion by redrawing the page on my iPad. I was surprised at how effective such a small adjustment was, and how much it turned one of the lesser Eternals pages into an absolutely essential New Gods page. This kind of fan exercise of replacing one character with another usually isn’t this gratifying. I think it’s because New Gods is something different, something special among Jack Kirby comics, among super-hero comics, and among comic books in general. There’s just something about seeing Orion and Darkseid in final combat, something to do with just how much Kirby fandom wanted to see a battle between these two. I was happy with the result of this remix, so I tried another page. This time, Dromedan’s mind control translated naturally into an Anti-Life-powered Darkseid robbing Orion of his own will and forcing him to pound rocks until his hands ached.
I put together another page. This time, Zuras and Sersi joined the fight. Sersi became Beautiful Dreamer. An early Kirby pin-up promised another final battle, “Beautiful Dreamer versus Darkseid! Both hold the key to victory in the strangest war ever fought in comicdom’s history!” I debated whether to turn Zuras into Himon or Highfather. I settled on Highfather, and in a twist, having him take on the armor of Izaya the Inheritor one last time in this final battle of the gods. Kirby and Royer art from 1977 was the perfect vehicle for this. For my next attempt I expanded the scope of source material and wondered what it would look like if I took another epic Kirby donnybrook, this time from Tales To Astonish #82 in 1966 (above). It’s a different Kirby, with inks by Dick Ayers, but the result was very interesting, with the sleeker figures looking a little bit like Steve Rude’s art. After that I got back to my real work on my own new super-hero comic, Witchman, but if I ever get the hankering again, I might take a stab at another one of these New Gods ’77 “what if” remixes. H [Editor’s Plea: Someone with the financial means, PLEASE commission Mike Royer to do this exact exercise, and come up with a final New Gods story using Kirby’s Eternals pencils as its basis—and let me plot it for free!] 26
Gallery
HAPPY Returns?
What if things hadn’t ended the way they did for Jack? Commentary by John Morrow
[right] Eternals #17, page 3 (Nov. 1977) Seeing Tom Scioli’s turn at turning Eternals pages into ones for New Gods got me thinking even further. What if, instead of going to DC Comics in 1970, Jack had stayed at Marvel and been allowed to kill off Thor and the other “old gods” in Ragnarok, and brought in his “new” generation of gods there? Envision replacing Ikaris here with Thor making his last stand—would some version of the Eternals line-up be his next step in the evolution of the gods? [next page] Mister Miracle #18, page 9 (March 1974) While this issue put a bittersweet ending to Jack’s original Fourth World run, what if, instead of bringing back Darkseid & Co. for just this final issue, Jack had been given a reprieve to steer the book back to its roots for a few more issues to build his epic? Who knows what a revitalized Kirby could’ve done given the chance in 1974... [page 29] OMAC #7, page 17 (Oct. 1975) Instead, Jack shifted his focus to other titles like Kamandi, Our Fighting Forces, and here, OMAC. Once again, just as he was starting to build some momentum with this series... it was over with issue #8. Granted, this time it was because Jack was out the door and on his way back to Marvel Comics. But had the creative environment been better at this point, imagine where he could’ve taken OMAC, potentially officially tieing it in to Kamandi, and starting a potential “Fifth World” at DC.
27
28
29
[left] NOT the cover to Fantastic Four #100 (July 1970), OR FF Annual #8 (Dec. 1970) What if Jack started his Fantastic Four #100 story in early 1970, intending it for Fantastic Four Annual #8 (for Summer 1970 release) and thought he had 36-48 pages like he did in previous years? Perfect Film gave him that lousy takeit-or-leave-it Marvel contract in January ’70, which was the final push for Carmine Infantino to sign him to DC Comics in February. Rather than have this double-length epic story appear after he’d left Marvel—and just as his first new DC comic was launching—it makes sense to me that he changed course and truncated the Annual for the regular FF #100 issue, possibly as a quick replacement for the rejected “Janus” story that ended up in #108. So as a “what if”, here’s how the FF #100 cover might’ve looked as Annual #8 instead.
30
Spidey Super Stories #19 [left] and #20 [below] cover pencils (1976). John Romita inked both these covers, offering a tantalizing tease of what a Kirby Spider-Man comic could’ve been like. The Jack Kirby Checklist mentions a rumored 1960s Esquire magazine Spider-Man strip with Lee script and Kirby/Romita art that’s never surfaced—another Spidey “what if” to ponder!
31
[right] Sandman #1, page 17 (Winter 1974) Just why this new (and final) Simon & Kirby title was launched, and then left on newsstands for over a year without a follow-up issue, is lost to time. But it’s a safe bet that had something to do with its supposedly stellar sales reports, as distributors don’t take an issue off newsstands until the next one arrives to replace it. When issue #2 did finally arrive, dated May 1975, it featured only a Kirby cover, no Simon involvement, and interior art that tried its best to look like Jack’s work. Still, this solid, but not trailblazing first issue makes me wonder if a few more Simon & Kirby collaborations might’ve made a blip on DC’s 1970s sales radar. Instead of Jack’s revamp of Manhunter in First Issue Special #5, would a Simon & Kirby version have fared better? Would Joe’s involvement with the Newsboy Legion in Jimmy Olsen have been for better or worse? Could Joe and Jack have recaptured their glory days doing a new version of Black Magic and romance comics together then, and even find a way to relaunch their mega-hit Boy Commandos for the 1970s? What if, indeed! H
32
TwoMorrows Books Now Shipping!
PACIFIC COMICS COMPANION
WORKING WITH DITKO
JACK KIRBY’S DINGBAT LOVE
BEST OF SIMON & KIRBY’S
MAINLINE COMICS
CHRISTOPHER IRVING explores the superhero serials (1941-1952) of Superman, Captain America, Spy Smasher, Captain Marvel, and others, and the comic creators and film-makers who brought them to life! (160-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-119-6
STEPHAN FRIEDT & JON B. COOKE examine the independent that published KIRBY, ARAGONÉS, DITKO, ADAMS, GRELL, plus DAVE STEVENS’ Rocketeer!
JACK C. HARRIS recalls collaborating with STEVE DITKO on The Creeper, Shade, Demon, Wonder Woman, The Fly, & more, plus Ditko’s unused Batman design!
The final complete, unpublished Jack Kirby stories in existence: Two unused 1970s DC DINGBATS OF DANGER STREET tales, plus TRUE-LIFE DIVORCE & SOUL LOVE mags!
Collects JOE SIMON & JACK KIRBY’s 1954-56 series BULLSEYE (the complete run), plus all the Kirby FOXHOLE, POLICE TRAP, and IN LOVE stories, fully restored!
(160-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $29.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-121-9
(128-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $24.95 (Digital Edition) $13.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-122-6
(176-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $43.95 (Digital Edition) $14.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-091-5
(262-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $49.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-118-9
IT CREPT FROM THE TOMB
TEAM-UP COMPANION AMERICAN COMIC BOOK AMERICAN TV COMICS
Digs up the best of FROM THE TOMB (the UK’s preeminent horror comics history magazine), with early RICHARD CORBEN art, HP LOVECRAFT, and more!
MICHAEL EURY examines team-up comic books of the Silver and Bronze Ages of Comics in a lushly illustrated selection of informative essays, special features, and trivia-loaded issue-by-issue indexes!
(192-page paperback with COLOR) $29.95 (Digital Edition) $10.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-081-6
(256-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-112-7
REED CRANDALL
KIRBY & LEE: STUF’ SAID
Illustrator of the Comics
CLIFFHANGER!
CHRONICLES: 1945-49
Covers the aftermath of WWII, when comics shifted from super-heroes to crime, romance, and western comics!
(288-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $49.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-099-1
SHIPS SUMMER 2024
JOHN SEVERIN
TWO-FISTED COMIC ARTIST
(1940s-1980s)
THE LIFE & ART OF
DAVE COCKRUM
History of over 300 TV shows and 2000+ comic book adaptations, from well-known series (STAR TREK, PARTRIDGE FAMILY, THE MUNSTERS) to lesser-known shows.
GLEN CADIGAN’s bio of the artist who redesigned the Legion of Super-Heroes and introduced X-Men characters Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Logan!
(192-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $29.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-107-3
(160-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $27.95 HC: $36.95 • (Digital Edition) $14.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-113-4
ALTER EGO COLLECTORS' ITEM CLASSICS
Master of the Comics
MAC RABOY
History of Crandall’s life and career, from Golden Age Quality Comics, to Warren war and horror, Flash Gordon, and beyond!
Presents JACK KIRBY and STAN LEE’s own words to examine the complicated relationship of the creators of the Marvel Universe!
Biography of the EC, MARVEL and MAD mainstay, co-creator of American Eagle, and 40+ year CRACKED magazine contributor.
Compiles the sold-out DITKO, KIRBY, and LEE issues, plus new material on each!
Documents the life and career of the master Golden Age artist of Captain Marvel Jr. and other classic characters!
(256-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $13.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-102-8
(176-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $26.95 (Digital Edition) $12.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-094-6
(160-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $14.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-106-6
(256-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $35.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-116-5
(160-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $14.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-090-8
AMERICAN COMIC BOOK CHRONICLES
FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER SERIES
documents each decade of comics history!
8 Volumes covering the 1940s-1990s
TwoMorrows. The Future of Comics History. Phone: 919-449-0344 E-mail: store@twomorrows.com Web: www.twomorrows.com
TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA
He Went With...
...the Flo!
Incidental Iconography
An ongoing analysis of Kirby’s visual shorthand, and how he inadvertently used it to develop his characters, by Sean Kleefeld
B
ack in TJKC #53-54, we looked at how Jack drew both himself and Stan Lee. Given the “what if” theme of this issue, I thought we might round out the Marvel Bullpen he drew in What If? #11 (Oct. 1978) by looking at his depictions of Flo Steinberg and Sol Brodsky. What’s interesting here is that Jack drew this issue in 1978, well over a decade after the versions of the figures he’s representing, so one of the things we’re looking at is not only how well did Jack capture their likenesses, but how well his memory and super-charged imagination seem to have interpreted them. Let’s start with a little contextual background. Flo moved to New York City and was hired by Stan in 1963. Marvel had started really leaning into their success with the super-hero genre and launched The Avengers and The X-Men. All of the creators Marvel utilized were freelancers; Stan and Flo were the only two people actually on staff at that time. While Sol had done freelance work for Marvel—and its predecessor Timely— dating back to the 1940s, he didn’t come on as Marvel’s full-time production manager until 1964. By 1978, he had been made Vice-President of Operations, but it’s unclear when exactly that promotion happened. (That’s only relevant in that Jack refers to Sol as Marvel’s VP in the story.) Now, fortunately for Jack, Sol’s appearance didn’t change much over the time Jack knew him. His hairline receded a bit over the years and he gained a little weight, but Sol was a bit stocky to begin with. What this meant is that Jack could draw him based on either a current photo or whenever they last met in person (recall that in 1978, Jack had been living in California for nearly a decade, so he wouldn’t have had frequent in-person interactions with Sol any longer), and however much of Jack’s stylistic abstractions were implemented, they would remove a decade or two of aging with no problem. Jack’s illustrations of Sol [see below] aren’t particularly detailed. They’re basically all
a stocky guy with wavy hair and a wide nose—which isn’t to say that’s inaccurate, just that Jack ‘painted’ Sol with a rather broad ‘brush.’ Frankly, it’s not that different a depiction of himself in the same issue [above], and it’s primarily the difference in hair that makes it clear to readers which character they’re looking at. (Well, that and the Thing’s rocky hide that Jack sports for much of the issue!) Flo is handled a bit differently, though. The first noticeable difference between Flo and how Jack depicted her is her hair. Jack drew her with shoulderlength hair throughout the issue, but I don’t believe her hair was ever that long while she was at Marvel. She did have a simple bob cut when she started [see photo above], but that only came as far down as her chin, and by the following year she had more of an Italian cut. In Robin Green’s Rolling Stone piece from 1971, she notes that Flo had grown her hair long since they last met in 1968 when Flo left Marvel, suggesting that it was short for her entire tenure there. 34
Speaking of that Rolling Stone piece, Green also notes about Flo, “And when she smiles, her eyes close to crescent shapes. She smiles so hard that she can’t keep her eyes open at the same time.” While that does have a bit of poetic license to it, it’s definitely not difficult to find photos of Flo that seem to show exactly that, such as the one here from 1965. And while the story Jack wrote for What If? #11 requires facial expressions more along the lines of surprise, concern, or fear, there are a few scenes that show Flo smiling happily, but without closing her eyes or bearing a seemingly ear-to-ear grin. The virtually trademark visuals for Flo aren’t present in this issue. For as under-detailed as Jack drew Sol, he at least got the broad looks right, based on the above photo from 1969’s Fantastic Four Annual #7; but for Flo, she’s really just drawn as a relatively generic female character, not appreciably different at all from Sue Storm, apart from the hair. As far as I can ascertain, Jack’s and Flo’s paths never crossed again after 1968. Given how wildly off he was about her hair, I have to presume he was drawing her from memory. The Flo that appears in What If? #11 is a Flo from Jack’s past, filtered through a decade of memories. It’s as much Flo, as Big Barda is his wife Roz; that is, the physical resemblance is slight at best, but the emotional connection Jack put into them is 150% accurate. The woman in the issue is Flo, not because it’s a good likeness of her, but because Jack tells us that’s who it is—not just by name-checking her, though, but by infusing the character with his memories of her: how she moved and talked, and generally interacted with the rest of the Bullpen. And that is why, I suspect, images from this issue were used so frequently when Flo passed away in 2017. They might not be technically very accurate pictures in terms of a strict likeness, but they do convey the affection and appreciation Jack must have felt for her. Both Sol and Flo have only appeared very sporadically in comics since What If? #11, and the artists who have drawn them not surprisingly have gone back to actual photos of them instead of relying on Jack’s depictions. Consequently, their other cameos are more representative of what they actually looked like, but with the exception of Marie Severin, who penciled Sol into Sub-Mariner #19, Jack was the only one who had personal connections with them, and that’s something that comes out in What If? #11 that you can’t find anywhere else. H
35
Arach-nits
Spiderman’s Tangled Web by Richard Kolkman
Joe Simon was born in 1913, Jack Kirby in 1917, Stan Lee in 1922, and Steve Ditko in 1927, so they may have been exposed to any number of these early influences. [right] The rare 1938 Little Giant Movie Funnies #1 (published by Centaur just two months after Superman’s debut in Action Comics #1). It featured Ed Wheelan’s “Spider-Man”, reprinting it from one of his “Minute Movies” newspaper strips originally produced in the 1920s for The George Matthew Adams Service (which would later syndicate Kirby’s own Sky Masters newspaper strip). [below] Movie poster for The Spider’s first movie, 1938’s The Spider’s Web. [right] The Miss America back-up from Blonde Phantom #12 (Winter 1946).
“Oh, what a tangled web we weave.” Sir Walter Scott—1808
I
t’s important to confer proper credit, where credit is due, because with great creativity, there must also come... great responsibility. For many years, I subscribed to Steve Ditko’s assertion that a creation exists when it is in physical form—basically, when it exists; ideas notwithstanding. What is an idea? And do ideas exist? I have an idea for world peace. Did I just create it? Before Thomas Edison “invented” the electric light bulb, others had the idea for artificial lighting without flame or fuel. However, it was Mr. Edison’s creation that shed light in the dark, cobwebbed corners of his Menlo Park lab. Similarly, it is the Ditko/Lee creation of Spider-Man we have celebrated for over six decades—the creation that took hold, and is trademarked. For this exploration into the origins of SpiderMan, I’m going to adopt Stan Lee’s premise, that the idea is the creation. With that in mind, let us review the earlier spider-people in pulps and comics (and movies and television); for they are the actual creations, according to Stan Lee. The following spider-list is limited to spider/human hybrids with intelligence, and not giant spider monsters. I’m also limited to spider-people I know about. Most all “Tarantulas” and “Black Widows” are excluded from this exploration.
November 11, 1945: “The Spider Boy” [episode #153] of The Shadow radio program features an eccentric character who is described as a “Spider Man” because he is old enough to marry. Best quote: “You’re caught in your own web of insanity.” This episode, scripted by Joe Bates Smith, was later adapted in Shadow Comics V8, #3 in 1948. Winter 1946: Blonde Phantom #12 (Timely); “Scourge Of The Spiderman” 8p by Bill Finger and Charles Nicholas(?). March 22, 1946: The Spider Woman Strikes Back. Sherlock Holmes again faces off against the villain Spider Woman in this Universal film.
1933–1943: The Spider pulp from Popular Publications featured sex and violence stories remembered by Stan Lee from his youth. The Spider punched villains with a spider ring, leaving an indelible mark. Jim Steranko reminds us, “The Spider concept was common in Weird Tales and other horror pulps, not to mention some of the adventure titles, too.”
September 1947: Whiz Comics #89 (Fawcett); “Captain Marvel And The Webs Of Crime” 8p. Otto Binder and C.C. Beck pit the Big Red Cheese against Spider Man.
August 1938: Little Giant Movie Funnies #1 (Centaur); “The Spider-Man” is a reprint from Ed Wheelan’s Minute Movies comic strip (1924– 1935). Gerber’s Photo-Journal Guide to Comic Books determined less than 20 copies still exist of this rare comic book. October 10, 1938: The Spider’s Web 15-part Columbia movie serial begins; based on the pulp character, starring Warren Hull as The Spider.
June 1948: Shadow Comics V8, #3 (Street & Smith); “Spider Boy” 14p. The cover story adapts Joe Bates Smith’s script from a 1945 Shadow radio program. The story was adapted for the comic book by either Bruce Elliott or cover/story artist Bob Powell.
May 1940: Crack Comics #1 “Alias, The Spider” series begins by Paul Gustavson for Quality Comics. Series continues until #30 (Aug. 1943). May 9, 1941: The Spider Returns 15-part Columbia movie serial revisits the pulp character, and again stars Warren Hull as The Spider.
June 1953: The Hand of Fate #18 (Ace); “Web Of The Spider Woman” 7p, with art by Bill Molno. 1953: Spiderman; Joe Simon creates a logo (17 inches across) for an idea he is determined to develop into a creation. This concept evolves into “The Silver Spider” in tribute to Lev Gleason’s Silver Streak Comics.
December 10, 1943: Spider Woman Universal film pits Sherlock Holmes against Gail Sondergard as Zenobia Dollard, The Spider Woman. 36
Foxhole. One of the two existing Night Fighter February 1954: “The Silver Spider” (unpubsample covers was recycled from an unused lished 10p; Harvey). When C.C. Beck wanted Fighting American cover. to get back into comics, Joe Simon contacted his brother-in-law, Jack Oleck, who scripted November 1954: Uncanny Tales #26 (Atlas); this story for Beck to illustrate. Editorial mem“The Spider Man”. With cover art by Joe orandums from Sid Jacobson to Leon Harvey Maneely, this story concerns a crazy professor [above] Joe Simon’s 1953 reveal: “The Silver Spider should be thought of Spiderman logo, and [below] 1941 determined to breed an army of giant spiders as a human spider.” He describes the physical pulp hero The Spider, and The Shadow with two male spiders! 4p, art by Ed Winiarski characteristics and powers in detail, including battles “Spider Boy” in 1948. (signed: “Edwin”). Stan Lee was editor. exceptional agility and a special fluid that 1955: The movie Tarantula was released—adding to emanates from his distinctive costume (like thread). the spider menace zeitgeist. Jacobson mentions a possible “poison,” but nowhere does he intimate wall-climbing, strength, or a “sixth 1956: Chip Hardy (unpublished comic strip). Jack sense” warning of danger. He does go into length about Kirby and Will Elder’s sample strips depict Chip Hardy the physical characteristics of the Silver Spider—he grappling with college life while enduring the taunts should be tall, thin and wiry (like Ditko’s Peter Parker), of Moose Mulligan, a jock who derides freshmen not a muscular person. On his February 23 letter, who have a science scholarship like Chip (a nerd)—a Jacobson strikes out the following: “All conclusions on Peter Parker prototype. The strip also gives a nod to his character and personality should stem from the attri“Moose”, the big lug from Archie Comics. butes of the spider.” Evidently, he had second thoughts November 1957: Black Cat Mystic #60 (Harvey); “The about a hero as savage and murderous as an arachnid. Ant Extract” 5p. A meek scientist discovers a serum The existing Silver Spider sample pages are a that imbues him with the proportional strength of an glimpse into a simpler time. Heroes were heroes, insect (in this case, an ant). With Kirby and George for kids—this one patterned after Fawcett’s Captain Klein art, the story focuses on a scientist with conMarvel, the boy who gained great power through magic. siderable power, who is feared and ostracized by the Oleck also created a second story in typed manuscript authorities (another plot element later used in Marvel’s form, “The Menace.” Sid Jacobson derided the Silver “creation”). Here’s Kirby creating a human with insect Spider concept as “old hat”—like the Green Hornet. powers—an idea that keeps flowing into comics. In the sample pages of C.C. Beck’s story, orphan Tommy Troy leaves Aaron Creacher’s cruel orphanage 1958: Two movies, again part of the cultural zeitgeist, and lands in the clutches of weird old couple Ben and Abigail March. were released: The Spider (a giant creature menace) and The Fly (a human Through the artifices of a magic ring found in a spider’s web, and a genie, turned insect) from Fox. The Return of The Fly was released in 1959, Tommy transforms himself into the Silver Spider faster than you can say continuing the plot that follows a process gone wrong. In Return, it is a “Shazam!” Evidently, Jack Kirby is peripheral to the creation of Harvey’s scientific device that gives the scientist insect powers. The same “created unpublished Silver Spider. Kirby once claimed it was created for an issue idea” was later recycled in Amazing Fantasy #15 in 1962. of Black Magic, but Simon disputed this. This is a spidery super-hero, just June 1959: The Double Life of Private Strong #1 (Archie); “Meet Lancelot as Aaron Stack was both Mister Machine and Machine Man; one idea with Strong” (a revamp of The Shield). An orphaned teenager (again) gains two names. extraordinary powers (transformed scientifically by Simon and Kirby) and July 1954: House of Mystery #28 (DC); “The Spider Man” 6p. Art by Ed is taken in by kind people. He later fails his friend “Spud” and vows to use Smalle. A biologist and insect expert team up to find the spirits of “The his new-found powers to always help others. Sound familiar? Spider People.” August 1959: Adventures of the Fly #1 (Archie); “The Strange New World July 1954: Web of Mystery #25 (Ace); “Lair Of The Of The Fly”. Upon the prompting of Joe Simon by John Silken Doom” 7p. With art by Lou Cameron, a Spider Goldwater (MLJ/Archie) that “superheroes are coming Woman weaves her dangerous web of intrigue. back”, another new hero is born. Simon retrieved the Silver Spider pages from a hyper-organized Leon 1954: Spider Man. This Ben Cooper Halloween costume Harvey, and with the additional presentation of the was introduced for sale. Named Spider Man from the Spiderman logo (1953), the Fly gets the go-ahead beginning, the earliest version of this costume (black for publication, with Kirby as the artist. According to webs on yellow) is a precursor to Marvel’s 1962 verSimon, “We’re calling him The Fly instead of the Silver sion; including full face covering and inhuman eyes. Spider.” The Genie from the Silver Spider was replaced Whether Steve Ditko or Stan Lee ever saw kids come by Turan, emissary of the “Fly People.” Recycled from to their doors in this costume is unknown, but in 1959, the earlier script were orphan Tommy Troy, Aaron the product was re-named “The Spider” and had a Creacher, “Blaster” McCoy, and Ben and Abigail half-mask (black webs on red) with evolved Spider-Man March. Another magic ring is found in spider webs, eyes in a simpler form. With a spider symbol in the which confers great power upon the boy, determined middle of the chest, their 1959 version is a precursor to to do justice. The elderly couple who take Tommy in Marvel’s 1962 character. By 1963, after the introduction are precursors to the mean couple who take in Jed in and success of Ditko and Lee’s version, apparently the Simon and Kirby’s Sandman #1 (Winter 1974)—the Ben Cooper folks found a way to co-exist. They came to same “Cinderella” plot. a licensing agreement with Marvel to the benefit of both The real similarities to the later Spider-Man lie companies. The point is, they didn’t have to. Ben Cooper within his “sixth sense” (awareness of danger) and was first. It’s been said the Ben Cooper company was seeing in all directions, wall-crawling, super strength, only ten miles from the Marvel office. I can tell you what and “the cunning to escape any trap” (Mister Miracle). it’s like to be Spider-Man, as I was him on Halloween The Fly now has a “Buzz Gun” and has electricity flowing through his veins night back in 1968, in my 1960s Ben Cooper costume. when he gains his insect powers—again, like later in Amazing Fantasy October 1954: The Night Fighter (unpublished concept art; Mainline). #15. The story “Come Into My Parlor” introduces the villain “Spider Spry”, These two concept drawings were dreamed up by Simon and Kirby as a thin arachnid fiend who features a Kirby “spider” on his cowl, which their Mainline Comics company was coming to an end. Night Fighter was a more closely resembles a tick. It looks much like Ditko’s later symbol on wall-crawling commando with no super powers. The term “Night Fighter,” the back of his version of Spider-Man’s costume. All of this is presented after being introduced in trade ads as a war comic, later evolved into breathlessly in a “wide-angle scream.” 37
effort to grow Marvel with new heroes for the 1960s. This is the only known instance where Stan mentions Kirby’s Spiderman presentation. Where was Stan’s unfailingly bad memory when he needed it in 1972?
Ron Lim commissioned Mike Royer to ink this piece in 2000.
The persistence of memory is an amorphous thing. Here today, gone tomorrow—sometimes it only hints at the truth. We now arrive at the main event: Jack Kirby’s five-page interpretation of his Spiderman. Stan Lee didn’t want a super-heroic translation of the new hero. It was years later that Kirby took on the entirety of SpiderMan’s creation. In The Spirit #39 (Feb. 1983), Kirby states that he alone created Spider-Man; he later made the same claim in Comics Journal #134 (Feb. 1990). Stan Lee was Marvel’s editor, and he was the guiding force in what was created for Marvel Comics. Not one to waste a good idea, Kirby was also always ready to recycle and re-introduce older concepts into newer times. The Spiderman logo and concept art that Kirby brought forward had been percolating for years. This was the “blitz” of ideas that Kirby had promised. Kirby was very direct with what he had achieved: “My version is simple: I saved Marvel’s ass... and so, I came up with Spiderman, and I presented Spiderman to Stan Lee.” It would have been customary for Kirby to present concept art ideas; as John Morrow reasons in TJKC #75 (Stuf’ Said!), “...wouldn’t Jack have to submit something to his editor to approve, before starting on a full story?” Yes, indeed. As far as credit for the name Spider-Man, we’ll give Stan credit for the hyphen. Marvel publisher Martin Goodman was not an advocate of “spider” heroes. He allowed it in this instance, as it was destined to expire in the doomed title Amazing Fantasy #15. The practice of presentation of concept art was normal at Marvel. Jim Steranko had to prove himself by inking two try-out pages of Kirby art in 1966—on “Nick Fury, Man of D.E.A.T.H.” Steranko passed the test, and went on to ink Kirby, and continue the “Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.” feature in Strange Tales and beyond. It’s also probable Goodman was the one who vetoed a “web gun.” As late as the 1970s, Jim Shooter describes what was on Kirby’s Spiderman concept art page: A full-grown, big, bulky, Captain America type. He had the web pistol, the belt, and he notes the hero was the son of the police commissioner. No webs were evident on the costume, which was similar to Captain America’s. There were notes in the margins that described the character. It was at that point, Stan Lee gave his plot to Kirby to illustrate. Lee claimed to never have seen Simon’s 1953 Spiderman logo, or The Silver Spider from 1954. With his notoriously bad memory, Stan’s disclaimers are expected.
August 1960: Rawhide Kid #17 (Atlas); “Beware The Rawhide Kid” 17p. In this Kirby and Lee western comic, a teenage gunslinger’s quest for revenge comes after the murder of his Uncle Ben, defining this origin story—another orphan, another Uncle Ben idea creation. 1960–1961: On the Green with Peter Parr. Comic strip samples created by Kirby and Dick Ayers feature a golfer who is almost there: “Peter Parr”— later, Stan Lee removes an “R” and adds the “KER” to create “Peter Parker.” Stay tuned. January 1961: Journey into Mystery #64 (Atlas); “I Dared To Battle Rorgg, King Of The Spider-Men” 7p. Scripted by Larry Lieber, with art by Kirby and Ayers, a boy uses pre-ban DDT to fend off an invasion by Rorgg and, yes, his spider men.
1962: Spiderman (unpublished, Marvel). Kirby created five pages of Spiderman. The hero only appears on the splash page (which may also double for the concept art; this is unknown). Peter Parker lives with his Aunt May and Uncle Ben (a retired policeman). The hero was too muscular, too “heroic” for Lee’s tastes. Stan’s vision differed from Kirby’s, so Stan delivered the series to his favorite mystery artist, Steve Ditko. But Lee wasn’t finished with Kirby’s concept just yet. As Will Murray points out, many characteristics of Ant-Man seem to stem from the physicality of Kirby’s Spiderman and Night Fighter—a different kind of insect hero, one that takes no prisoners. Ant-Man’s chest symbol and boots appear to resemble Kirby’s Spiderman concept, as described by Steve Ditko. Finally, in Kirby’s original five-page story, the kid is the friend of a whiskered scientist, and is seen going toward the scientist’s darkened door at the end of the five pages. According to Kirby, “I would write out the whole story on the back of every page. I would write the dialogue on the back, or a description of what was going on.” The fact that Kirby’s Spiderman only appears on the splash without context, and not in the story, begs the question: Was he originally intended to be a “spider-sized” hero, and that the diminutive hero concept was used instead for Ant-Man? “Stan said Spider-Man would be a teenager with a magic ring (à la Silver Spider/Fly) which could transform him into an adult hero—Spider-Man” [Steve Ditko]. Ditko responded that the new hero resembled Simon & Kirby’s Fly. Stan Taylor found no character by Lee or Ditko that exhibited the characteristics of Marvel’s Spider-Man or Peter
August 1961: Tales to Astonish #22 (Marvel); “I Dared To Battle The Crawling Creature” 13p. Scripted by Lieber, with art by Kirby and Ayers, a high-schooler who is unathletic is derided—until he defeats the crawling creature with his cunning. Nerd as hero! October 1961: Journey into Mystery #73 (Marvel); “When The Spider Strikes” 7p. This Lieber/Kirby/Ayers tale is about a spider, bathed in powerful atomic rays, who achieves human consciousness and strives to dominate humanity. An errant missile destroys his ambitions. October 22, 1961: Spider Man, Dennis the Menace (CBS Television). In the episode “Mr. Wilson’s Safe,” Dennis (Jay North) describes the “Spider Man” who climbs walls and hypnotizes people. Art follows function—reminiscent of the Silver Spider story, “The Menace,” the writers of this prescient episode were Budd Grossmann and Hank Ketcham. 1962: And finally, when Marvel is on a roll with its nascent super-hero characters, Jack Kirby adds to his “blitz” by showing Joe Simon’s Spiderman logo (1953) to Stan Lee, and describes Oleck and Beck’s Silver Spider superhero story from 1954. As Steve Ditko later explained, “I still don’t know whose idea was Spider-Man.” In a speech at Vanderbilt University in 1972, Stan Lee espoused in detail the fact that Kirby brought the Spiderman concept to him in 1962. Kirby’s presentation was an earnest 38
Parker and his scientific infusion, etc. (1957–1962). But what happened to Kirby’s original art pages? Eric Stanton (Ditko’s studio mate) claimed they sometimes stuffed original art pages into the drafty cracks in the studio. Stan didn’t seem to want the pages, or he would have reclaimed them. Remember: though Lee praised the artists for their illustrative talents, he never acknowledged their storytelling excellence. He preferred to describe them as “jokers” or “pencil pushers”, simply there to draw his ideas. Despite rumors, I don’t believe Kirby’s original five-page Spiderman story will ever surface. Ditko told Will Murray that he threw them away.
Batman, a super-hero was born! But according to Lee, “I’ve told the story so many times—that, for all I know, it might even be true.” ’Nuff said. Robert L. Bryant adds: “Kirby looked up at his heroes. Ditko looked askance at his. Both followed a singular vision, and both saw things no other comics creator had seen before.” I used to think “ego” was the reason why Stan Lee claimed the majority of creative credit for Marvel’s heroes. But looking back, it’s entirely possible that, since Stan was an on-staff employee, Goodman’s corporation benefited by taking creative credit out of the hands of freelance contractors—the “pencil pushers.” It’s good to see Kirby had pulled out of his slump after leaving Marvel. He exploded with creativity when creating DC’s Fourth World. His return to Marvel was rich in creativity, and Kirby added greatly to the new direct market publishers in the 1980s. Kirby created an avalanche of concepts for the animation industry, and really only stopped when he became too infirm to continue. Kirby never turned his mind off. In contrast, Stan Lee basically stopped writing comics in January 1972. I give the final word to Kirby: “It’s the will to create that tells the truth.” H
June 5, 1962: Amazing Fantasy #15 (Marvel); “Spider-Man”. Steve Ditko created an 11-page story with scripting by Lee which was published. It’s this story that cemented the legend of Spider-Man. Adding mystery to the character, Ditko designed a full-masked enigma—our Spider-Man was born. “Steve Ditko developed Spider-Man, Ditko’s style sold Spider-Man” [Jack Kirby, 1986]. However, Ditko’s original cover to Amazing Fantasy #15 was rejected by Lee. Ditko’s original cover features Spider-Man in a sky-high view—in the middle of the action. Instead, Lee had Kirby draw a more inspiring, iconic upward scene. This is the one we remember. We all know the story: Meek Peter Parker is bitten by a radioactive spider and gains incredible powers. What set Marvel apart, was Lee imbued his characters with humanity, humility, and fragility. Spider-Man was like us.
Stan Taylor observed that only Kirby featured chapter breaks in his stories. So, it is reasonable to believe Kirby had a hand in the layouts for not only Spider-Man’s first appearance, but also the first two issues of Amazing Spider-Man. A few plot devices in these issues are very Kirby-like, and are broken into story chapters. Stan Taylor (who I’m leaning heavily on) goes into the similarities in his excellent essay in TJKC #70. The spacecraft leap by Spider-Man was once complained about by Ditko in one of his essays; saying it was beyond the ability of the teenager and would have been better suited to Thor (per Patrick Ford). Where does inspiration come from? In a recent Comic Book Historians interview with Ditko’s brother Pat and his nephew Patrick, Alex Grand asks Pat to display two woodcut blocks carved in 1946 by brother Steve. The first one features the classic Ditko spiderweb motif and a candle, and the second one features a caped figure and a pair of sorcerer’s eyes. The struggle to create was always forefront in Stan Lee’s recollections. How incredible was it that Kirby took a back seat from 1958–1964 and followed Stan’s burst of creativity and drew what he was told? Did you know Lee customarily laid-out the covers to Marvel comics for the artists? I have never seen one, but that is Lee’s claim in Tales to Astonish #65 (March 1965). A light bulb came on over Stan Lee’s head when he saw a fly walk up the wall—à la
(Richard Kolkman lives in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and is the curator of the Jack Kirby Checklist.) WORKS CITED: Comic Book Makers, The by Joe and Jim Simon (autobiography); (Crestwood II Publications; 1990) Comics, The V1#5 (May 1990) “An Insider’s Part of Comics History: Jack Kirby’s Spider-Man” by Steve Ditko (R: Alter Ego V2#3) (Robin Snyder) Excelsior! The Amazing Life of Stan Lee “Along Came a Spider” by Stan Lee and George Mair (Fireside; 2002) Full-Color Guide to Marvel Silver Age Collectibles “The Origin of the 1963 ‘Spider-Man’ Halloween Costume” by J. Ballmann (TotalMojo Productions; 2014) Golden Age of Comics, The #6 (Nov 1983) “Jack Kirby in the Golden Age” (Kirby interview) (R: TJKC 25) (New Media) Jack Kirby Collector, The #66 (Fall 2015) “1986 Kirby Interview” // “Ditko vs. Kirby on Spider-Man” by Jean Depelley (TwoMorrows) Jack Kirby Collector, The #70 (Winter 2017) “Spider-Man: The Case for Kirby” by Stan Taylor (TwoMorrows) Jack Kirby Collector, The #75 (Kirby & Lee: Stuf’ Said!) by John Morrow (TwoMorrows) My Life in Comics by Joe Simon (autobiography) (Titan Books; 2011) Origins of Marvel Comics “The World’s Best-Selling Swinger” by Stan Lee (Simon & Schuster; 1974) Pure Images V3#1 (1990) “The Birth of Spider-Man” by Greg Theakston (Pure Imagination) Steve Ditko Reader, The “The Road to Spider-Man” by Greg Theakston (Pure Imagination; 2002) Tales to Astonish: Jack Kirby, Stan Lee and the American Comic Book Revolution by Ronin Ro (Bloomsbury; 2004) True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee by Abraham Riesman (Crown; 2021) [The author acknowledges input from, and many thanks, to: Patrick Ford (Strange Brain Parts), Michael Hill, Will Murray, Arlen Schumer, Jim Shooter (blog; 2011), Robin Snyder, Jim Steranko, Chris Tolworthy, and the Grand Comics Database (www.comics.org).] [left] Jack did this drawing in pencil for a never-produced 1960s 3-D poster, and it ended up as the cover of Marvelmania Magazine #5 (1970). Nick Cagnetti, creator of Pink Lemonade for Oni Press, recently produced this gorgeous inked/colored version.
39
the Unseen Spider-Man
eye-spy
by Will Murray
S
ixty years on, it’s impossible to definitively say how the Marvel Universe might have changed had Jack Kirby’s version of Spiderman (Jack’s version had no hyphen) gone forward. Even speculating on a theoretical trajectory for the nascent character is problematic. The chief reason for this uncertainty is that the first SpiderMan (with hyphen) story went on sale on June 5, 1962, simultaneously with the debuts of the Mighty Thor and Ant-Man. At that point, the Marvel Universe consisted of the Fantastic Four and The Incredible Hulk, and the Hulk’s title was hanging by a thread. According to Kirby, it was slated to be canceled with issue #3, but was given a reprieve. To safeguard his investment in unpublished Hulk stories, publisher Martin Goodman decreed that henceforth, every issue of The Incredible Hulk would contain two stories instead of a single book-length adventure. This was a precaution in the event he had to cancel the title for good. That way, the inventory could be repurposed as a feature in the only remaining hero-less fantasy magazine, which at that point was Tales of Suspense. This may partially explain why Tales of Suspense was kept open for a new hero feature until the end of 1962. With the Human Torch solo feature debuting in Strange Tales in July, it was the only place left for the Hulk to land if he lost his own title. The most likely scenario involving Kirby’s Spiderman would have been a lawsuit from Archie Comics, their longtime rival, over the similarities between The Fly and Spiderman. Both characters had been young orphan boys who found magic rings which transformed them into insect-powered super-heroes. In Adventures of the Fly, young Tommy Troy had been allowed to grow up and become an adult lawyer a year or two before Spider-Man’s debut. Nevertheless, the parallels would probably not have been ignored, any more than DC Comics had ignored The Double Life of Private Strong, which starred another orphan who grew up to become The Shield, and who possessed some of Superman’s mighty powers. DC attorneys quashed that title quickly. It died with issue #2. Spiderman might have been cease-and-desisted, which means that Lee and Goodman would have been leery of anything Kirby offered them going forward. Goodman and his former pulp cohort, Archie Comics publisher Louis Silberkliet, were often at odds. That possibility aside, I doubt that a Kirby Spiderman would have caused Martin Goodman to cancel Amazing Fantasy with issue #15. I believe he had confidence in Jack Kirby that he didn’t have in Steve Ditko, who, up to that point, had never drawn a story for Marvel longer than five pages. Later that year, Ditko did his first long Marvel stories: a lead fantasy tale for Tales of Suspense and the entirety of Incredible Hulk #6. The legend that Goodman originally pulled the plug on Ditko’s Spider-Man because he had no confidence in a teen hero modeled after an arachnid, ignores the inconvenient fact that it was Goodman as publisher who signed off on Amazing Fantasy #15 in the first place, only canceling the title after issue #16 was finalized and ready to go to press. The contents to Amazing Fantasy #16 resurfaced in Amazing Spider-Man #1, with the back-up five-pagers landing in different fantasy titles. If Spiderman had continued in Amazing Fantasy, it would have been a 13-page lead story. Moreover, had Lee kept Kirby on his version of Spiderman, he would ultimately have taken him off it sooner than later, as he did with Thor, Ant-Man, and Iron Man in the course of events as they unfolded over the 1963–64 period, where Kirby had his hands full juggling so many new features, which included his
revamping of the Two-Gun Kid. It might have affected how Iron Man was rolled out. Perhaps Kirby would have drawn the origin story himself. Perhaps not. Perhaps Iron Man might not have happened at all. But there’s no way of knowing that. In fact, there’s no way of deducing a lot of things. According to rumor, Martin Goodman was so high on Ant-Man that he considered promoting him into his own magazine as a replacement for the dying Incredible Hulk. It’s also possible that a Kirby Spiderman—as ultimately happened with Ant-Man—might never have gotten the traction with readers that he did from the start, due to the inherent limitations of being a mere lead feature, and not a hero dominating his own book. After Kirby had drawn the first few installments, just as he did with every other lead feature in the fantasy magazines, he surely would have abandoned it, sooner or later. The replacement artist would have been either Don Heck, Dick Ayers, or even possibly Ditko himself. More significantly, perhaps, is the fact that Larry Lieber would likely have scripted it during its formative period. Even though he would have been working from the combination of Kirby and/or Stan Lee springboards, the truth would be that Spiderman would have been a lesser strip in concept and execution. It’s not impossible, however, that even with those restrictions and conditions, Spiderman might have broken out to be a more significant character, and then awarded his own strip. He might have replaced the Hulk, for example, whose book was canceled at the end of 1962. Beyond all that, a successful Kirby Spiderman might have drastically affected the great Marvel super-hero roll-out of 1962. How? Let’s abandon speculation and consider what we do know.
Getting The Job Done
Look at the relevant job numbers, which were in the “V” series. Job numbers are not supposed to be strictly chronological, but they are believed to be a good indicator of the order in which a project was initiated. We don’t know the job numbers for the Jack Kirby Spiderman pages because Steve Ditko said he threw them out when he was assigned to take over the strip. The first published Spider-Man story bore the job number V-789. So we can assume that the Kirby version predates that by a week or two. The story in The Incredible Hulk #2 carried the job number of V-781. The first “Thor” story is labeled V-786 and the first “Ant-Man” V-795. The first Human Torch solo story—which was run as the third episode––was V-823. What does that sequence tell us? Most likely, the lost Spiderman pages were drawn immediately after Kirby finished Incredible Hulk #2. Then he went on to draw the debut of Thor, more or less while Ditko was reworking Spider-Man. The first Ant-Man story presumably followed that. All of this activity appears to have been undertaken between the time Kirby drew Fantastic Four #5 (job number V-735) and #6 (V-835). This would have been around March–April 1962. From Jack Kirby’s perspective, after he had been taken off a feature he had only begun to develop, what did he do next? Thor, a character similar to his Spiderman, in that he was an ordinary 40
individual who magically transformed into a super-hero in the tradiconsisted exclusively of characters who did not have their own tion of Fawcett’s original Captain Marvel. Would a published Kirby books, or in the case of the Hulk, who had been orphaned. Spiderman have affected Kirby’s development of Thor? Would Thor Come to think of it, I’m not exactly sure what the original have had the magical origin he was given, had Kirby’s Spiderman Avengers line-up would have consisted of, had Kirby’s Spiderman gone forward? Would Goodman and Lee have permitted two new been a member. There would have been no Ant-Man and perhaps heroes who transformed like Captain Marvel? no Thor. At the very least, Thor would have been significantly differWould Thor have even happened? ent. He might have been a thunder god come to Earth, as Hercules Then there is Kirby’s next new creation, Ant-Man. Steve Ditko later was, and not an ordinary man who turned into a Norse deity. once recalled that Ant-Man’s costume was similar to the Kirby Maybe Captain America and Prince Namor, the Sub-Mariner, Spiderman design, so it’s entirely possible that Kirby came up with would have been founding members! H Ant-Man as a substitute for losing the Spiderman strip. He may have borrowed or adapted that rejected costume for Henry Pym—who knows? But had Kirby developed his version in subsequent stories, Spiderman might have been the one with the ability to communicate with or control spiders—naturally or cybernetically. Dick Ayers, who had inked the original Henry Pym pre-hero story in Tales to Astonish #27, claimed to have suggested to Stan Lee that they bring the character back, but he didn’t envision him as a super-hero. This was months before Marvel turned to producing a line of super-heroes. It’s not impossible that if Kirby had stayed on Spiderman, there would have been no Ant-Man. Instead, some other character would have been introduced in his place. Maybe Iron Man would have gone into Tales to Astonish since Lee and Goodman were determined to place new heroes in all of their 1962 fantasy titles. It’s been said that Iron Man concept sketches had been kicking around the Marvel offices for months before his belated debut. The character seems to have moved forward around the time The Incredible Hulk was finally put to rest, which meant that Tales of Suspense no longer needed to be held open for orphaned Hulk tales. Steve Ditko recalled being told that he would do the final issue of The Hulk so as not to “waste” Kirby on a failed title. Instead of launching Iron Man— which no doubt was his creation and which, in his original tank-like armor, Kirby saw as a kind of mechanized Hulk––he turned his talents to Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos. Given a different adult-aged Spiderman, other consequences would have rippled through the burgeoning Marvel Universe. If Ant-Man had not been created, there would have been no Wasp, but a Spider-Girl might well have been introduced. Ditko recalled Lee pressuring him into coming up with a Spider-Girl during the first year or so of that feature. Ditko declined. Kirby might well have simply gone along with the idea. A year after his debut, a Jack Kirby Spiderman might have been a prime contend- [above] This issue’s cover inker Damian Pickador Zajko resides in Poland, and comments: “My inking is fully digital. er to have been a member of the Avengers, I do it in vectors, so I can scale it up to poster-size without losing any details. I use Clip Studio Paint for sketching, inking and coloring. I inked this to study Jack’s lines, trying to understand his Mayan-inspired way of design, given that he wasn’t a teenager under his and trying to keep as much of this distinctive style as possible. That’s why I didn’t include the spider emblem on his mask, but a young kid in an adult super-hero chest—apparently Peter Parker has that costume variant in his wardrobe, according to Jack. body. Lee and Ditko’s take—a misunderstood “I had a bit of a problem with the buildings in the background, which were sketched very delicately. teenager wanted by the law, which was an They were original enough that they don’t have their reflection in reality. So, as a graduate architectural student, updating of Kid Colt, Outlaw—made SpiderI had a bit of a conundrum understanding how these structural elements intersected. What was the author Man a difficult fit for The Avengers, which imagining with the knowledge of over half a century ago?” [This image is from Roz Kirby’s private sketchbook.] 41
DitkoData
Ditko+
by Ross Morrison
Exploring Steve Ditko’s recollections of Spider-Man’s creation © Robin Snyder & Steve Ditko, used with permission.
[For an even more extensive version of this article, including Ditko’s comments beyond his involvement in the creation of Spider-Man, go to: https://comicbookhistorians. com/the-ditko-version-exploringsteve-ditkos-recollections-of-marvelin-the-1960s-by-rosco-m-copyrightrosco-m-2023]
S
[this spread] To imagine what Kirby’s original Spiderman pages might’ve looked like, examine these examples from Strange Tales Annual #2 (Sept. 1963), inked by Steve Ditko. Picture Jack’s original costume (as recalled, above right, by Ditko) on the figures—it’d clearly have been a very different strip than Ditko’s.
teve Ditko’s earliest recorded accounts of his work at Marvel Comics relate to 1961, the same year in which the publication of Fantastic Four #1, by editor/writer Stan Lee and creator/artist Jack Kirby, initiated the “Marvel Age of Comics.” At this point in his career, Ditko, aged 34, was already an established freelance artist and had been illustrating short stories for Atlas Comics, a precursor of Marvel, since 1956. Lee had recognized Ditko’s talent for bringing to life a certain sub-genre of short story that made use of twist endings akin to those in O.Henry’s writing and Rod Serling’s Twilight Zone television series. The decision was made to showcase their combined talents in a similarly themed anthology publication entitled Amazing Adult Fantasy. This began with issue #7 (Dec. 1961), being a rebranding of Amazing Adventures. The inclusion of the world “adult” reflected Lee’s intent on
attracting a more sophisticated audience, something he emphasized with a cover blurb which proclaimed it as “the magazine that respects your intelligence.” Ditko provided the following summary of this period: “In 1961 I was working with Stan Lee (writer/ editor) at Marvel Comics in producing material (stories and art) for Amazing Adventures (which became Amazing Adult Fantasy). Briefly, in regards to our working method, Stan provided the plot ideas. There would be a discussion to clear up anything, consider options and so forth. I would then do the panel/page breakdowns, pencil the visual story continuity and, on a separate piece of paper, provide a very rough panel dialogue, merely as a guide for Stan. “Stan would provide the finished dialogue for the character, ideas and consistency.” This process is commonly referred to as the “Marvel Method” of producing comic books. Various iterations exist, but all involve artists working from a premise/outline as opposed to a full script (in which character dialogue, etc. has been prepared in advance of the illustrations). Stan Lee and Jack Kirby had only just begun to capitalize on the comic-book industry’s super-hero resurgence, and their newest project would bring Ditko into the mix: “For me, the Spider-Man saga began when Stan called me into his office and told me I would be inking Jack Kirby’s pencils on a new Marvel hero, Spiderman.” Ditko received the first five pages of his assignment, depicting the beginning of an origin story penciled by Kirby. The lack of a hyphenated name was one of many differences between the character appearing in those pages and the ‘Spider-Man’ that is familiar to global audiences today: “The Spiderman pages Stan showed me were nothing like the published character. In fact, the only drawings of Spiderman were on the splash and at the end. At the end, Kirby had the guy leaping at you with a web gun. Aunt 42
“I’m uncertain about the abstract chest design. The closest thing to it is the one on Ant-Man. Kirby’s Spiderman had a web gun, never seen in use. The only connection to the spider theme was the name.” Lee explained to Ditko that the character was a “…teenager with a magic ring that transformed him into an adult hero—Spiderman”. This premise was a familiar one for Ditko, who informed Lee that his new hero “…sounded like Joe Simon’s character The Fly (1959), that Kirby had some hand in, for Archie Comics.” Lee, presumably concerned, subsequently contacted Kirby to discuss the matter further: “Stan called Jack about The Fly. I don’t know what was said in that call. Day(s) later, Stan told me we would be doing SM (SpiderMan). I would be penciling the story panel breakdowns from Stan’s synopsis and doing the inking.”
May was there, and Uncle Ben was a retired policeman. He looked a lot like General Thunderbolt Ross. Anyway, the first five pages took place in the home, and the kid finds a ring and turns into Spiderman.” Ditko’s recollections of these pages’ contents would be revised on various occasions. While largely consistent, another iteration offered a slightly different description that included additional story/character details:
Stan Lee’s newly written synopsis was described by Ditko as consisting of a ‘brief storyline’, being a ‘page-and-a-half’ in length. This would form the basis of a new origin tale, though one that employed the traditional twist ending found in Lee/Ditko short stories. As Ditko observed, this was a fresh start for the strip that discarded vital elements found in Kirby’s pages:
“The other four pages showed a teenager living with his kindly old aunt and hard, gruff, retired police captain uncle, a General Thunderbolt Ross-type (from The Hulk) who was hostile toward the boy. Next door or somewhere in the neighborhood was a whiskered scientist-type involved in some type of experiment or project. The end of the five pages depicted the kid going toward the scientist’s darkened house.” Ditko’s accounts included a description (and attempted reproduction from memory above) of the original Kirby-designed costume worn by the ‘Spiderman’ character, which included a cowl covering half his face in a manner akin to Batman or Captain America:
“Kirby’s five penciled Spiderman story/art pages were rejected. Out went the magic ring, adult Spiderman, and whatever legend ideas that Spiderman story would have contained.” For reasons unmentioned in his records, Ditko was assigned as both the penciler and inker for the project. He likely welcomed the decision, given his strong views on splitting the roles: “Pencil art needs an inker to bring out the strength of the penciler’s style in how a penciler emphasizes or diminishes panel elements: people, faces, action, mood, settings, etc. 43
in panels. So matching an inker with a penciler is almost impossible because they are two different talents, skills, even in outlook: more imaginative, more realistic, etc.”
to directly transfer story ideas to the page without significant creative input from the illustrator: “A synopsis is a brief storyline, words, abstractions, and so is a part, incomplete, not detailed, not the whole story. A comic book synopsis does not tell/show the what, how and why for every panel and exactly how each character should, must be seen, act, react, in art in every situation. “The synopsis does not tell/show how to create the visually important, especially in dramatics scenes, in fight scenes, and how they are to be staged, shown, in what way, how many panels etc. and from what visual viewpoint (close-up, long shot, mid-shot, overhead, etc.).”
The pages that Kirby had originally penciled for the new strip, which Ditko had retained, no longer appeared to hold any value: “The Lee/Kirby S-M idea, five art pages, was not a story, no kind of blueprint, but a flawed, failed S-M idea. The potential (acorn, seed) could not be brought to life.” In an era where the value of original comic art/history was very different to today, those pages would meet a sad fate: “I always regret I threw away Kirby’s pages on his ‘creation’ of Spider-Man. I could have, should have, had the pages photostatted.”
The additional responsibilities (and creative freedom) inherent in the process necessitated a certain type of illustrator:
Working from Lee’s written outline, Steve Ditko commenced conceptualizing/illustrating the fifteen pages of pencils, together with accompanying story notes, for what would become the iconic “Spider-Man” origin tale. His artistic and creative talents would be critical in bringing the story (and Spider-Man himself) into existence:
“…a created synopsis needs an artist—a creative artist. The artist has to collaborate—co-create—by supplying additional ideas and storyline for a publishable story/art creation. The artist has to collaborate with the synopsis writer in providing, in co-creating, the rough equivalent of a full-script, a complete page/panel story idea breakdown. Then, alone, the artist creates the visual story/art continuity. He provides rough panel dialogue, a rough full script for the writer to use, edit and, for the final panel, dialogue.”
“Everything beyond Lee’s synopsis-creation idea needed another hand/mind to make abstractions, some mind/word ideas, into a different, new creation by adding, creating, ideas, executing, to make the necessary physical whole for publication.”
Ditko would even create a new term to describe the artist working under this scenario—the “artist-plus”:
Ditko’s accounts contain numerous references to written story “synopses” prepared by editor/ writer Stan Lee. These contained story/plot ideas that Lee provided as direction and were sometimes “one or two pages” in length’. It appears that none of the documents were retained by Ditko, and their fate was presumably that of the original Kirby Spiderman pages. Ditko made no reference to Lee preparing the synopses in his presence, though they could incorporate his suggestions from their earlier discussions (e.g.: Ditko’s basic concept of a villain with mechanical arms). Occasionally Lee’s synopses would contain ideas/scenarios that displeased Ditko, e.g.: the use of protagonists of alien/supernatural origin for Spider-Man. Lee’s use of synopses differed from the “full script” method more commonly employed in the comics industry at the time. Comic book artists always made some creative decisions beyond simply drawing pictures, but this particular approach explicitly conferred upon them a portion of the writer’s traditional storytelling responsibility. As Ditko explained it, Lee’s decision to employ synopses meant he “...surrendered his part of the writer’s division of labor as a writer Jack’s further attempts at the wall-crawler were limited, including [above] from of full script, to the artist.” This was Amazing Spider-Man #8 (Jan. 1964), which Marvel’s Tom Brevoort thinks was because a synopsis did not contain originally meant for 1963’s Fantastic Four Annual #1. Other times were [next page] covers for Tales to Astonish #57 (July 1964) and Avengers #11 (Dec. 1964). sufficient detail/directions necessary 44
“With a synopsis, the incomplete storyline material, there is an actual need for more than an illustrator, and even more than an artist. A synopsis must have an artist-plus. An artist-plus has to take what is incomplete, what is partly provided, and add new story ideas, fill in, expand, provided everything else needed to make a complete, whole, work/picture story. “The artist-plus has to supply rough dialogue for every panel for the writer, dialoguer, to polish, provided better storytelling, continuity, etc.” In his writings, Ditko expressed no opinion as to whether the use of synopses (under the “Marvel Method”) was any better or worse than that of a full script. He did, however, express dissatisfaction with the extent to which his role as “artist-plus” was acknowledged in this process. The ‘ideas’ that Ditko would contribute to the origin of SpiderMan included elements that quickly became synonymous with the new character: “Stan’s synopsis to me did not mention any (two) wrist shooters, or hidden belt, or any specific costume or specific spider-like actions. Those are my ideas and creation.”
There was evidently no prior discussion with Lee as to how the new SpiderMan might appear. Left to his own devices, Ditko opted not to incorporate any of the design elements Kirby had utilized in the rejected “Spiderman” pencils:
human, a freak, a spider-like creature. Seeing the spider-like poses would be bad, causing all kinds of mental health and behavioral problems—nightmares and acting out the panel scenes. “I said something to the effect that we should wait until The Code complains or demands the spider-like poses be changed or reviewed.” Lee agreed, and the tale—simply entitled “Spider-Man”—was published as the cover story in Amazing Fantasy #15 (August 1962) with the word “adult” having been removed from the publication’s title, ostensibly due to readership feedback. As for the spider-like poses, Ditko noted that “The Code didn’t complain.” The cover of Amazing Fantasy #15 was penciled by Jack Kirby, with inks by Ditko. It utilized a similar layout to an earlier, rejected layout by Ditko—though with some important changes: “I drew the cover from a subjective viewpoint. I wanted to put the reader/viewer up front with the swinging Spider-Man, to be a part of the activity, to see and realize the danger in falling, in having a sense of swinging along with Spider-Man. “Stan rejected it for a more heroic S-M action, an objective viewpoint, the viewer not up there with S-M.”
“One of the first things I did was to work up a costume, a vital, visual part of the character. I had to know how he looked, to fit in with the powers he had, or could have, the possible gimmicks and how they might be used and shown, before I did any breakdowns. For example: he had a clinging power so he wouldn’t have hard shoes or boots, a hidden wrist-shooter versus a web-gun and holster, etc.”
Ditko’s Opinion: Who Created Spider-Man?
The question of who should actually receive official credit for the creation of Spider-Man can be a challenging one, given the circumstances under which the character was brought into existence, and the differing narratives forwarded by those involved. Stan Lee consistently stated that the initial idea to do a spiderbased character was his, and that he rejected the initial pages because Jack Kirby’s “heroic” depiction did not match his vision for the character. Kirby, on the other hand, asserted that it was he who suggested the character to Lee, and that he also originated the name. Kirby never publicly acknowledged any rejected “Spiderman” pages, and also asserted that it was his busy work schedule that resulted in the strip being handed to Ditko. (Joe Simon, Kirby’s former creative partner, would see Kirby’s accounts, then subsequently assert that he was actually the one who came up with the “Spiderman” name. According to Simon, he provided it to Kirby while they were still working together). There were instances during their lifetimes in which Lee and Kirby each specifically claimed sole creator credit for Spider-Man. There were also occasions, however, in which Lee referred to the character as a “co-creation” with Ditko, as well as interviews in which Kirby attributed either the development or creation solely to Ditko. Ditko’s own perspective can be found in his essay entitled “An Insider’s Part of Comics History: Jack Kirby’s Spider-Man.” In that article, revised several times in subsequent years, he placed the focus squarely on the final, published version of Spider-Man. This, he declared, was a Lee/Ditko “co-creation.” In making his case, Ditko was aware of Kirby’s claims of having brought the “Spiderman” name to Lee, but declined to take a side in any argument between the two:
The decision to employ a full-face mask was unusual for the time, and Ditko recognized that his design choice risked disapproval: “I wasn’t sure Stan would like the idea of covering the character’s face, but I did it because it hid an obviously boyish face. It would also add mystery to the character and allow the reader/viewer the opportunity to visualize, to ‘draw’, his own preferred expression on Parker’s face, and perhaps, become the personality behind the mask.” Ditko’s level of creative investment in the costume/character even extended to his selection of a color scheme: “My original color combination was a warm, red-orange on the webbing section and a cool blue on the body parts. These colors made a nice contrast, they emphasized the webbing and added to the mystery mood.” Having completed at least some of the penciled pages, Ditko met with Lee to present and discuss his work. One aspect, in particular, would generate conversation between the two: “The crucial point came after Stan and I went over my penciled pages. Stan wanted me to take Peter Parker/Spider-Man off the wire, ceiling, etc. to change the spider-like poses, action. “Why? Stan was afraid the Comics Code ‘judges’ might or would reject Spider-Man because Peter Parker, the teenager, would be seen by young buyers as something non-
“Who first came up with the specific name Spider-Man is for Stan and Jack to resolve.” Ditko also acknowledged that Kirby had been involved in the creation of the penciled 45
pages for a rejected version of “Spiderman”…though he apparently had no interest in finding out what vision Kirby may have held: “I never talked to Jack about Spider-Man, so I don’t know what his ideas concerning the character actually were.” Ditko reasoned that, regardless of the real-life backstory, the “Spider-Man” brought to life by Lee and Ditko in Amazing Fantasy #15 was still sufficiently new/ different to be judged an independent and original creation. In making his point, Ditko noted that the idea of a spider-themed character/hero was hardly a new one: “There have been earlier uses of the spider ‘idea’ in comics: Paul Gustavson’s Alias the Spider, DC’s Tarantula with his web gun, and certainly many other heroes, heroines, villains and villainesses (such as, in this last category, the earlier Black Widow, before Simon or Kirby or Lee). There was a Spider pulp novel series and a Spider movie serial, all before any Kirby or Lee Spider-Man.” The fact that the Lee/Ditko Spider-Man had elements/aspects in common with other creations (including the Kirby-drawn “Spiderman”) did not preclude it from being something new. As Ditko viewed it, any creation was “…actually a recreation, a rearrangement of existing materials in a new, different, original novel way.” When compared to what had preceded it, the Lee/Ditko Spider-Man could still be said to “…have its own unique identity consisting of specific parts (characters, costume), place (setting), qualities (powers and gimmicks), arrangements and relationships (plot ideas), and meaning (the view of man, life, existence, right and wrong, justice)”. Ditko was aware that Jack Kirby had claimed sole credit for the creation of virtually all the characters he had worked on at Marvel, including Spider-Man, and made a point of invoking Kirby’s own logic as part of his argument. Ditko noted that Jack Kirby had claimed the Marvel Comics character ‘Thor’ as one of his creations (a claim Lee disputed), even though it obviously followed on from a character of the same name that had appeared in Norse myths: “If Marvel’s Thor is a valid created work by Jack, his creation, then why isn’t SpiderMan by Stan and me valid created work, our creation?” H
WORKS CITED: Steve Ditko, “An Insider’s Part of Comics History: Jack Kirby’s Spider-Man” essay from Avenging World (2002). Steve Ditko, A Mini-History 13, “Speculation”, The Comics! Vol. 14, #8, August 2003, the newsletter of Robin Snyder. Steve Ditko, “Creator or co-creator”, The Avenging Mind 2007 (reprinted The 32 Series by Ditko, Vol. 1 Overture, 2019, p 27). Steve Ditko, “Roislecxse”, The Avenging Mind 2007 (reprinted The 32 Series by Ditko, Vol. 1 Overture, 2019, p 27). Steve Ditko, The Hero Comics #29 (Autumn 2019). Steve Ditko, A Mini-History 1, “The Green Goblin”, The Comics! Vol. 12, #7, July 2001, the newsletter of Robin Snyder. Steve Ditko, “Tsk Tsk Examining a Creator/Creation Claim”, Avenging World 2002, p 137. Steve Ditko, A Mini History 3, “The Amazing SpiderMan #1”, The Comics! Vol. 12, #11, Nov. 2001, the newsletter of Robin Snyder. Steve Ditko, A Mini-History 2, “Amazing Fantasy #15”, The Comics! Vol. 12, #10, October 2001, the newsletter of Robin Snyder. Steve Ditko, 2013 letter to David Currie, Ditko Shrugged, David Currie, p 67.
Kirby illo from Marvel’s 1978 Spider-Man Calendar, and (top) Ditko’s unused cover to Amazing Fantasy #15.
46
[Ross (Rosco) Morrison is a lifelong fan of the comic book medium and has a particular interest in the firsthand accounts of creators such as Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko. He has previously written for both The Jack Kirby Collector and Comic Book Historians.]
Here’s a never-reprinted Simon & Kirby story “The Fall of Classy Eddie Bentz—Underworld Snob” from Justice Traps The Guilty #8 (Feb. 1949). Art restoration and color by Christopher Fama.
Notice in panel 2 how Jack references the Lower East Side of New York, where he would’ve been living in 1932.
Foundations
47
48
49
50
51
52
In panel 3, note the sign for “Kurt’z Bar”, no doubt a tip of the hat to Jack’s given last name, Kurtzberg.
53
Unfinished Sagas That Might H
Fanflix
by Michael Greczek
E [below and right] Michael looked to Jack’s penultimate issue of Thor (#177, June 1970) for inspiration for his own cover for a “Great Troll Saga” that would’ve wrapped up numerous Kirby loose ends. [next page, top and bottom] Following through on concepts Jack created for Tales of Suspense #78 (June 1966).
ven as a devoted twelve-year old fan, I often went to bed dreaming of possible twists and turns to Stan and Jack’s storylines. Would the great men go in this direction next, or go in that direction? “If I was Stan or Jack,” I would tell myself, “I would do this next.” I had hand-scrawled plots of the next Red Ghost saga and the next battle with the Hulk right beside my bed all the time. I soon caught on to the fact that Jack was the biggest contributor to the plots between the two men. So I morphed into thinking, “What would Kirby do next?” Then time passed and I went on to college and started my career. 47 years later, I’m still hand-writing plots and endings to tales that Kirby left hanging, albeit as part of my hobby: creating comics. So presented below, in no special order, are some ideas I had on finishing the King’s works.
Finish To The Troll War Saga & Galactus Storylines
In Thor #139, Geirrodur states, “When next we attack, it is the Thunder God who will be first to die.” Wow! What a great threat! I remember buying Thor religiously every month, waiting in anticipation for Kirby to resolve this Troll threat to Asgard, but it never came. So I decided to try to finish it. In the first Troll War, Geirrodur had Orikal on his side in an attempt to neutralize Odin. In the same manner for the second Troll War, I imagined Geirrodur acquiring new power from a “Wizard’s Jewel” and luring Galactus into the Asgardian dimension to battle Odin, while Geirrodur’s troops attacked Asgard. I had the Watcher involved, Loki and Karnilla, and even the Destroyer! Galactus actually had the upper hand for awhile versus Odin. But while Galactus lands on Asgard and sets up his machines, little does he suspect that the Asgardian dimension itself is slowly robbing him of his powers and rendering his machines inoperable. Geirrodur, using Galactus as a diversion to pin down Odin, diverts Thor to a needless battle with Ulik. Then Geirrodur attacks an Asgardian outpost, and finally leads a frontal assault on Asgard itself. Thor defeats Ulik, flies to Asgard, and battles Geirrodur in an attempt to defend the Golden Realm. To aid in this effort, Balder assumes the powers of the Destroyer at the Watcher’s behest. Eventually, the Destroyer teams with Thor and beats Geirrodur. Meanwhile, after a long battle with Thor and Odin, Galactus’ power ebbs so low that he reverts back to his Taa self. The story ends with Galactus cured and Geirrodur in defeat. Galactus’ cure resolves all of Jack’s Galactus storylines. The defeat of the Trolls resolves that storyline for the final time. The Thunder God is triumphant over
both foes. Odin is restored to power, Balder exits the Destroyer, and the Watcher flies off. It would have been a great Kirby ending to these unfinished storylines.
Create Another Epic Story Along The Lines Of The Fourth World
How to top the Fourth World saga? Even Kirby mused about that one. His run on the Eternals was a good attempt by the master. However, though epic in scope, the run fell short in execution. Being a trained chemical engineer with a lot of knowledge of modern biology and physics, I felt that somehow I could concoct a story as epic as the Fourth World, that the great Kirby himself might have come up with given more time. From the mid-to-late ’80s, I labored at plot after plot to no avail. Finally, I returned to Kirby’s image of New Men being created by A.I.M. in Tales of Suspense #78 (June 1966). Then it hit me: Artificial intelligence combined with biology might form organisms with true consciousness. An idea worthy of Kirby? I dubbed the new created beings “Differentials” because their consciousness was “different” from normal humans. The device which spawned them was called the “Differential Device.” As the storyline evolved, I brought in the then-hot topic of consciousness being created by artificial intelligence in computers, versus biology-based consciousness. I tried to portray the scientists that created these Differentials in an exciting and dramatic way, much as Kirby had done with scientists as the antagonists in Fantastic Four #66 and 67. The main story involved the Differentials being created 54
Have Been in the Differential Device, escaping, and then trying to be captured by a terrified US military. The main protagonist was named “Delta.” He would be the ultimate Differential. I took much of his demeanor from Kirby’s Silver Surfer. I developed a multitude of characters, the main antagonist I named “Dorn”, and the storyline developed rapidly. By now, it was the early ’90s. I thought of traveling to California and presenting my storyline to the great Kirby himself. But, instead of written pages, I decided to draw and illustrate issue #1 first, then go show Jack what it looked like. I actually thought I might be able to persuade Kirby to help with the plotting going forward. With the name of Jack Kirby behind me, I could quickly assemble a team of artists to produce the books. I actually approached friends of mine who were venture capitalists with the idea. But, suddenly, Kirby was gone. I regret never having developed the story fully enough to approach Jack before he died. I really never knew he was sick. But when he died, I put the Differentials on ice for the rest of the ’90s. I was very busy on my real job and my children were young. Maybe sometime in the next few years I will resurrect the storyline, self-publish, and dedicate it to Kirby. If I do that, I think Jack, wherever he is, would be proud.
Update Captain America
After reading every issue of TJKC and every Mark Evanier column and book, it appears to these sources that Jack himself was trying to update Captain America. The great man thought that the ’40s version had worn too thin and was fast becoming irrelevant to the comic reader of the late ’60s. He developed prototypes that would later become Captain Glory for Topps Comics. So, once again, I thought of developing a new Captain America type of hero to complete the unfinished storyline of the great man. I called him “Fighting Shield” and I think Jack would have liked him as a possible CA successor. My storyline starts off in typical fashion: an origin story. Instead of popping out of an iceberg like Captain America, Fighting Shield is recruited by A.S.S.A.U.L.T. (Army Special SAbre Unit and Lightning-strike Team). He has to qualify to be a member of the Fighting Shield team. He goes through an initiation process even Kirby would have been proud of, and makes the team. From here, Fighting Shield goes on to fight fantastic and unusual villains, all the while displaying gallantry, courage, and power. Allin-all, I think Jack would have enjoyed this iteration of his Captain America idea.
The Wrap-Up
So there you have it! I have many more unfinished Kirby storylines plotted out and ready to go. If TJKC ever The cover to Fantastic Tales #2, featuring does a follow-up Fighting Shield and Rock Solid! issue to this one’s theme, perhaps I’ll be allowed to show my ideas again. Until then, I want to thank TJKC for giving me this opportunity to share my great admiration, respect, and love for Jack Kirby with all of his legions of fans! H [The author is a MSChE, MBA, 59 years old, and still a devoted Kirby fan. Check out his website at www.comicspace.com/accolade_graphics, or e-mail him comments on this article at mgreczek@aol.com] 55
Sketchup
Kirby’s OTHER Black Book by Shane Foley
I
really like Jack Kirby’s Black Book. This is the sketchbook of (mostly) his creations he drew for his wife Roz which, when copies of the pics were inked, was published as Jack Kirby’s Heroes and Villains: Black Magic Edition. That’s the version I have. But the pencil scans I’ve seen are wonderful. However, I have often noticed, as I think most of his fans would, just how many of his dynamic creations are not in the book. He even missed the Human Torch! Whaaat? So General Argyle Fist and Conan (!) make it in, but the Torch doesn’t. Go figure. Then sometime in 2014, I had an idea. You see, I had a nice book full of blank pages too, just like Jack did. I have no memory where it came from. Did I buy it? Or was it given to me? All I know is, it had been on one of my bookshelves for ages. Yes, I had this idea. And I had time. I would create Jack Kirby’s Other Black Book! I had, for years, swiped Kirby poses for all sorts of reasons. I could do it again. So I began to make a list of as many characters as I could that Jack either created or was heavily involved with, that were not in his Black Book. The book I had was 95 pages long. Could I find 95 characters he’d overlooked? (Well, 93 actually.) Why? Because I decided early on that there was a very personal element I wanted in “Jack’s” new book. You see, in his Black Book, Jack drew both Orion and Big Barda, but he drew neither in their spectacular uniforms. Two of the best uniforms for super-heroes ever, in my opinion. So I decided in Black Book Vol. 2, they would both appear again, but in uniform. So I started my list. I needed 93 characters. And you guessed it—it was easy to find 93. In fact, many pages even had multiple characters on them. So without further ado, here’s a sample of what is in the book. (And a list of all the characters, so, if you are so inclined, you can try to work out the Kirby pose I’d swipe to draw them.) After it was all done, I realized I’d left out Arnim Zola. Damn! And the Celestials! And Captain Flane. -sighThere are just so many! H
56
WHAT IF KIRBY HAD BECOME MARVEL’S ART DIRECTOR? t some point later in his life, in a Playboy interview [as referenced in 2014 at https://www.digitalspy.com/comics/ a559772/stan-lee-confused-by-jack-kirby-controversy/], Stan Lee claimed that he had once offered Jack Kirby the job of art director for Marvel Comics, “but he said no,” said Lee. “He didn’t want a staff job.” On another occasion in 1998, Lee stated, “The one thing I remember and felt bad about when Jack left was that I had been thinking about—and maybe even talked to him about it—that I wanted to make Jack my partner in a sense; I wanted him to be the art director.” Later in that same statement, Lee said, “It probably
A [below and right] Jack’s layouts, and George Tuska’s final art, for Tales of Suspense #70 (Oct. 1965).
1 wouldn’t have worked out anyway, because I might have disagreed with him about things.” [https://www.twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/articles/02stanroy.html] One can only get the sense from these statements that there is a good chance that Lee never actually approached Kirby with the offer of a position as art director, but let us imagine that he did and that Kirby had accepted such an offer. What would have happened if Jack Kirby had been overseeing the production of artwork for Marvel in the late ’60s and early ’70s? In a certain way, Kirby was the de facto art director of Marvel, certainly from the point when it was determined that the company’s foray into a line of super-hero books might be profitable. The fact is that when Kirby returned to Marvel in 1958, the company then called Magazine Management was very close to going out of business. Lee was demoralized as well by the sudden death of his close associate and star artist Joe Maneely on June 8, 1958. In the words of comics scholar 57
Michael Vassallo, “If Jack had arrived looking for work on the following Monday, June 10, he would have found Stan Lee in his office inconsolable, and predicting the soon demise of Goodman’s already tenuous line of eight titles a month.” Clearly, Kirby had shown up at the right time to help stop the bleeding. As he began to produce a series of comics featuring very vivid and charismatic monsters, the company gradually began to recover. However, based on existing information, it is difficult to determine for certain where the impetus for the decision to go with super-heroes came from. Publisher Martin Goodman claims that he got the idea of doing super-heroes from seeing the success of National Periodical’s Justice League of America, and told Stan Lee to work on it, but Kirby claims that he presented Lee and Goodman with the notion that super-heroes would be successful. Regardless of that question, the fact is that just a few months after the positive reception of the Fantastic Four with a cover date of November 1961, the company continued in a similar vein with The Incredible Hulk #1 in May of 1962. That was quickly followed by Kirby’s presentation artwork for Spiderman, and in that same year a hero based on the Norse god Thor and a character called Ant-Man debuted. Judging from our study of the King’s working methods, it is fair to assume that Kirby had major input into the creation, plotting, and general direction of these books. However, regardless of who created these characters, at the very least Kirby must be credited with their design and the visual trajectory of their stories. In rapid succession, he then did a concept drawing for Iron Man, presented Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos, The X-Men, and a team of already existing characters called The Avengers. Almost invariably, the process would have Kirby get the book up-and-running, carrying on for several issues, while introducing supporting characters, villains and plot twists, and then he would usually turn it over to another artist. Often he would do layouts or breakdowns for the artist succeeding him, in order to insure a sense of continuity, as he would do for George Tuska taking over on a run of Captain America in Tales of Suspense #70. 1
2
Among the earliest layouts Kirby did for a Marvel artist were for John Romita on Daredevil #12 and 13. 2 Romita was quoted as saying, “As soon as I saw Jack’s breadowns, I knew exactly what Stan meant by pacing.” An unused example is at right. 3 If we look at this Captain America page from Tales of Suspense #85, 4 we see how Kirby uses his panels to choreograph a fight scene in a moment-bymoment sequence. In other words, we see an action in one panel 58
4
3
completed by another action in the following panel. In the first panel, we see a medium shot of Batroc drawing back his arm, preparing to swing. In panel two there is a close-up of Captain America’s legs clamping Batroc’s fist, and panel three completes the motion by flipping Batroc over. The villain regains his feet, but in the final panel, Cap strikes him again. Kirby was a master of such sequencing, and we can easily see how his layout for Romita on the Daredevil #13 page has a similar use of continuity of action in its eight panels. 2 Romita learned well from the King and would have a phenomenally successful run on Spider-Man when artist and co-creator Steve Ditko would suddenly leave Marvel over creative differences with Stan Lee. When Kirby left Marvel in March 1970, Romita would temporarily take over art and co-plotting chores on The Fantastic Four, and in 1973 would actually become Marvel’s art director. John Buscema would be another Marvel artist who would benefit greatly from closely studying Kirby’s work. His status with the company grew to the extent that his style came close to replacing Kirby’s as the official Marvel look. In 1978, Marvel/ Fireside books published a book entitled How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way, by Stan Lee and John Buscema. Buscema’s drawings were featured prominently, along with those of John Romita, and a good deal of Kirby’s work as well. When Buscema started working for Marvel in the late Sixties, it is said that he was encouraged by Stan Lee to draw more like Kirby. Buscema’s first work for Marvel was also done over Kirby layouts, on Strange Tales #150. Although the King did not spend a great deal of time on perfectly rendered anatomy, he nearly always designed his panels and pages for maximum dynamic tension and release. This tendency would have been what Lee was stressing for all of his artists to emulate. When asked in an interview published in the Jack Kirby Collector #18 what he had
5
learned from Kirby, Buscema replied, “The layouts, for cryin’ out loud! I copied! Every time I needed a panel, I’d look up at one of his panels and just rearrange it. If you look at some of the early stuff I did—y’know, where Kirby had the explosions with a bunch of guys flying all over the place? I’d swipe them cold!” It is instructive to study Buscema’s artwork prior to his apprenticeship at Marvel. Looking at one such sample, one can easily see that he understood anatomy very well and was comfortable rendering realistic musculature from a variety of angles. Still, his total page design was not consistently strong. If we look at this page from Dell Publications’ 1959 adaptation of the film Hercules, the figure in the second panel is not optimally positioned and does not look very forceful while snapping the chain. 5 One can’t help but notice that his left hand is partially cropped out of the frame. This is a drawing of a static human back, almost a bodybuilding pose. The drawing is subservient to the muscular display rather than to the essential motion. In his artistic wisdom, Kirby would never do that. He would distort or emphasize some aspect of the anatomy to suggest a violent action. Although the melee in the long third panel is well drawn, it could be better arranged in terms of the placement of figures in relationship to one another. The focal point of this panel should be Hercules, but instead the eye goes to the sword wielding soldier or the small figure speaking in the center. Notice also that the figures are all medium shots and all from more or less the same perspective level. Throughout the sequence, figures crowd each other with little sense of their individual intentions. One look at this Kirby page from Thor #159 shows us a master’s lesson in the dynamic use of Point of View. 6 We are looking down at a table where an arm wrestling contest is taking place, and because of Kirby’s composition, the reader’s eye almost instantly focuses on Thor. His arm’s position brings us to his opponent, but
6
59
the blonde bearded figure of Fandrall on the right, as well as the other onlookers, bring the singular focus to the juncture of the two interlocked hands in the center of the page. There are more than a dozen dynamic figures in this composition, but each one’s position is subservient to what Kirby intends for us to see. These are particulars that an artist of Buscema’s caliber would have studied carefully and utilized. If we look at his artwork nearly two decades after the Hercules page, we see a great sea change in his compositional abilities. This page from Savage Sword Super Special 1977 is a masterful use of page space by the artist, as he employs various figures and objects to move the eye around. 7 Notice the elbow of the seated cup bearer in the right middle ground of panel one, pointing to Conan’s entrance in panel two. Below his figure, we see the seated pirate’s hand gesture towards panel three and Conan’s back. His shape mass picks up the diagonal of the table, moving the eye to the fourth panel. Notice also that panel three is an overhead shot, giving the page more variety. Buscema also varies the shots in his panels, using a combination of medium, close-up and long shots. Notice the final panel shows only Conan’s manacled hand, emphasizing his captivity. Jim Steranko is another artist who brought his art skills to a whole new level by starting his tenure at Marvel working over Kirby’s layouts, beginning in Strange Tales #151. Several issues later, Steranko no longer required another artist’s layout’s, but looking at this page from Strange Tales #157, 8 one can clearly see the Kirby influence.
7
In a similar fashion to the Romita Daredevil page, Steranko is arranging his nine panels with cinematic action-to-action continuity in a way most successfully used by Kirby throughout his career. So by looking at such evidence, it is clear that at least for the first several years, Jack Kirby was pretty much functioning as Marvel’s art director, without the benefit of the title or the financial benefits. At some point in a later interview, the King expressed his frustration regarding the amount of work he had done over the years with insufficient compensation or recognition. “I felt for a while that I was doing them all. The stuff I wasn’t penciling, I was doing layouts on. I got the books going—I think that was mainly my function—so that, as Marvel acquired a top notch staff, they could keep them going.” For better or worse, Kirby was never given the official position of art director. Perhaps, the security and stability of such a job would have been enough for him to remain at Marvel, but then of course we would not have the body of work that he produced when he was given editorial freedom at DC Comics. Or perhaps he would have developed what became known as the Fourth World at Marvel, assigning some of the books to other artists under his guidance. In the end, it is difficult to find fault with the way things turned out from the perspective of the existence of a body of work of unparalleled excellence and originality. The only regret is that Kirby is no longer alive to benefit from the accolades and financial windfall that his work would eventually generate. H
8
60
OBSCURA
Barry Forshaw
A regular column focusing on Kirby’s least known work, by Barry Forshaw
Barry Forshaw is the author of Crime Fiction: A Reader’s Guide and American Noir (available from Amazon) and the editor of Crime Time (www.crimetime. co.uk); he lives in London.
Journey Into Mystery #60 and Black Magic #29.
vanquished) was the only topic of conversation, with just a grudging mention of the contributions of Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko. But let’s be more generous: for all their faults, some of these books could be notable value for money. Take Journey into Mystery #60 (September 1960), which is a positive cornucopia of work by Atlas/Marvel’s two premier artists. The first story is another example of Kirby’s prodigal invention—or perhaps that should be impatience—to avoid repeating himself with his monsters. “Bombu--The Witch Man” is seen on the cover as a 20-foot-tall brown and hairy creature crushing a native hut. But by the time Kirby got round to illustrating the actual tale of a malign witch doctor, Bombu had become the splendid and far more interesting Kirby creation: a witch doctor with a grotesque mask, a tubby diminutive frame, and scaly skin. The splash panel of this tale alone, with Bombu extending his arms in front of cowering natives, is worth the price of admission. The second piece in the issue, “We Were Trapped With The Silent Monster”, is another rather ordinary Don Heck outing—in this era, the efficient but uninspired Heck was always the artist you would read quickly to get to the next Kirby or Ditko. And that’s exactly what we get in the next piece—double value: Jack Kirby inked by Steve Ditko in the story “I Found The Things From Nowhere.” As so often before, the result of this collaboration of two great illustrators is very different from when, say, Wally Wood embellished Kirby; on a first glance, there are all the fingerprints of Ditko (notably an angular approach to composition), but the dynamic positioning of figures is pure Kirby. The story itself is full of the slack plotting that Stan Lee was responsible for in this era—while the hero appears to tune into an alien invasion, it turns out to be (spoiler alert!) a bizarre transmission of an ant battle in a corner of his garden. Even while reading the tale, readers could be forgiven for wondering why these bizarre creatures don’t look at all like ants—and why their dialogue is English rather than Antish. But the artwork makes the tale worthwhile—as is particularly the case with the final Steve Ditko tale, “I Turned Into A… Martian!”, which is just as individual and visually inventive as he always was. So if you’re still prejudiced about this era, you
VALUE FOR MONEY
It’s been instructive to watch the changing attitude to certain trends in comic book publishing. For instance, for a considerable time, the Batman stories of the 1950s and early 1960s— in which the Caped Crusader took on a variety of aliens and other science-fiction threats—were considered to be a low point in the character’s career, crying out for reinvention (and a return to his roots) courtesy of Carmine Infantino and Neal Adams. To some degree, there was justice in this assessment, but it was a period when science-fiction ruled. The SF-oriented threats that the Blackhawks, for instance, intermittently encountered, became their daily bread, with the quasimilitary troop being abducted by Venusians and encountering a variety of otherworldly menaces. But there was still a lot of invention and fun in those 1950s tales—not to mention the odd story illustrated by the best of the Batman illustrators of the era, Dick Sprang. Similarly, the Jack Kirby/Stan Lee run of giant monsters tales in such books as Tales of Suspense and Tales to Astonish had long been regarded as a low point in the team’s creativity (though not in terms of sales— the books enjoyed a healthy audience in those years). But for a long time, the perfectly justified criticism of the repetitive nature of the stories (in which a city-crushing monstrosity was routinely 61
that her “normal” appearance is a deception. Later in the tale—after the appearance of several other freakish figures in the background—the revelation, spread over two pages, is that the beautiful girl is wearing a kind of flesh bodysuit, which we see draped grotesquely across a settee before she is revealed as a multi-limbed grey monstrosity covered in what appear to be scales, and leaking slime. And the final panel in which the hero shoots in the face his grotesque pleading lover, is every inch as grim as one of those illustrated by George Evans or Reed Crandall for EC. It’s vintage Kirby—and although I never met the man (unlike this magazine’s Mark Evanier), it’s one I would have mentioned to him as a rebuttal of his idea that Black Magic was an anodyne title. As a footnote, I did in fact get to say something very similar to Stan Lee when he also claimed that the hadn’t been responsible for many horror comics; I diplomatically pointed out that Atlas horror titles such as Adventures into Terror and Adventures into Weird Worlds outnumbered the EC product. He smiled wryly, and reminded me that in the 1950s, to admit that one worked for comics was socially unacceptable, and his usual response was to say, “I work in children’s books.” How things changed in a decade, when both Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were lionized for their works in the comics medium!
MORE PRIZE HORROR…
I’m reluctant to let go of this strand on Simon & Kirby’s Black Magic. Apart from anything else, the book still has a particular charge in the UK, as the British edition was one of the ones cited in the UK horror comics scare. And there is one tale [below] which would definitely have upset the censorious: “The Head Of The Family”, from Black Magic #30 (Vol. 4, No. 6, May/June 1954). The striking Kirby cover undoubtedly places this firmly in the in-yourface macabre arena of EC Comics, with a grotesque gigantic head (accompanied by shriveled puny legs and pendulous
should perhaps give this issue a try; it won’t change your mind about the unexciting stories—ah, but the artwork!
THE GREATEST HORROR OF THEM ALL!
As I’ve noted on various occasions in this column, Jack Kirby’s comment that his horror title with Joe Simon for Prize comics, Black Magic, didn’t really deal in the kind of out-and-out horror that (for instance) EC Comics made a specialty of in the 1950s, was not quite accurate. Partially, it was true—most of the stories in the title have a supernatural (or sometimes science-fiction) slant which avoided the gruesome. But Kirby’s comment didn’t tell the whole story—there were times when Jack and Joe pulled out all the stops and created tales for the title which more than rivaled the work of Al Feldstein and Bill Gaines in grisliness. Take, for example, “The Greatest Horror Of Them All!” [above] from Black Magic #29 (Vol. 4, No. 5, March/April 1954) which is very much in the EC tradition. Feldstein and Gaines often favored stories that traded in physical deformity (shrunken concealed bodies, extra heads, etc.) which would only be given a shocking reveal in the final panel. S&K’s tale has such a panel—the second panel, in fact, of the piece whose caption reads: “The hairy, twisted hideous brother who grew out of Tom’s back.” In fact, the monstrous looking thing is actually quite normal-sounding, conversing calmly with his brother. The next panel has a figure whose body ends at its rib cage (“The other half of him was just housing filled with a complex network of tubes and chemicals that kept him alive”). The hero—who has something less than a liberal attitude to the house of deformed figures he is working in—falls in love with a beautiful blonde woman who outwardly appears to be normal. And I suppose I have to issue a spoiler warning here—though you will have guessed 62
arms) terrifying the heroine who—we learn in the tale—is keen to find out the truth about the family she is possibly about to marry into. No spoilers in this piece, but the revelation about the various freakish members of the family is fairly heavily signposted in the tale, and—let’s face it—the cover rather gives away part of the dénouement, as the piece built steadily towards the heroine’s entering the room in which the hidden head resides. Once again, we have the standard EC theme of monstrous physical deformity, although the bizarre family may not conform to the image suggested on the cover. And—as in the preceding paragraph—the piece is a reminder that Kirby’s protestations that he didn’t do real horror do not match the reality.
MAINLINING ON MAINLINE
I’d be very surprised if most readers of the long-running magazine they’re holding haven’t added to their collection The Best of Simon & Kirby’s Mainline Comics (produced by John Morrow of this parish)—unless, that is, those readers have a complete collection of all the original comics; and putting the latter together would be no easy task today. Apart from anything else, the original books look a little subdued compared to the eye-catching restoration this new collection has enjoyed. Rather than reading another of the Bullseye comics collected here, I’ve been dipping at intervals into the book, in order not to consume it too quickly. And to that end, I’ve even confined my dipping down to a single cover: the famous cover to the first issue of Foxhole (October 1954), with its wounded soldier writing home to his mother. Before even reading a single story, it’s clear that the book is markedly different from the gung-ho titles that most war comics of the day aimed to be—apart from the typically striking Kirby composition, the soldier’s bandaged face and the blood that is seeping through suggest that this is not to be a typical war comic. It will be both more humane and more uncompromising (inspired, perhaps, by Harvey Kurtzman’s anti-war work at EC). And the story itself? Well, you’ve got your own copy of The Best of Simon & Kirby’s Mainline Comics, haven’t you? H
BEST OF SIMON & KIRBY’S MAINLINE COMICS
(262-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $49.95 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-118-9 • Order at www.twomorrows.com
Advertise With Us!
$1,000,000 PAID FOR ORIGINAL COMIC ART!
RetroFan & BrickJournal Ad Rates: Back cover or inside cover: $1000 ($900 for two or more) Full-page interior: $800 ($700 for two or more) Half-page interior: $500 ($425 for two or more) Quarter-page interior: $300 ($250 for two or more)
Back Issue • Comic Book Creator Alter Ego • Jack Kirby Collector:
COLLECTOR PAYING TOP DOLLAR FOR “ANY AND ALL” ORIGINAL COMIC BOOK AND COMIC STRIP ARTWORK FROM THE 1930S TO PRESENT! COVERS, PINUPS, PAGES, IT DOESN’T MATTER! 1 PAGE OR ENTIRE COLLECTIONS SOUGHT! CALL OR EMAIL ME ANYTIME!
Back cover or inside cover: $800 ($700 for two or more) Full-page interior: $600 ($500 for two or more) Half-page interior: $300 ($250 for two or more) Quarter-page interior: $150 ($125 for two or more) AD SIZES: COVERS & FULL-PAGE: 8.375” wide x 10.875” tall trim size, add 1/8” bleed. (7.625” x 10.125” live area.) HALF-PAGE: 7.625” x 4.875” live area (no bleeds). QUARTER-PAGE: 3.6875” x 4.875” live area (no bleeds).
330-221-5665
Call or e-mail for frequency discounts! Send ad copy and payment (US funds) to: TwoMorrows Publishing 10407 Bedfordtown Drive Raleigh, NC 27614 919-449-0344 E-mail: twomorrow@aol.com
mikeburkey@aol.com
We accept check, money order, and all major credit cards; include card number and expiration date.
OR SEND YOUR LIST TO:
MIKE BURKEY
P.O. BOX 455 • RAVENNA, OH 44266 CASH IS WAITING, SO HURRY!!!!!
These rates are for digital ads supplied (PDF, JPEG, TIF, EPS, or InDesign files accepted). No agency discounts apply.
63
What-Ifer
Tom Kraft Interview Conducted by Rand Hoppe in November 2023
[above] Rand Hoppe, Founder of the Jack Kirby Museum [left] and Tom Kraft, President of the Kirby Museum [right] in 2010 in Hoboken, New Jersey, home of the Jack Kirby Museum. (Note: the Museum has no physical exhibit space.) [below, right] Captain America #193, the actual first Jack Kirby comic book Tom purchased in 1975. [next page] The scrapbook Tom assembled his inked and colored drawings of his favorite Jack Kirby characters and two-page comic book spreads in. [below] Coming this summer is Tom’s 208page Jack Kirby’s The Eternals Pencils and Inks Artisan Edition, offering before and after comparisons of Jack’s work on that series.
[Here, Tom Kraft, President of The Jack Kirby Museum and Research Center (https://kirbymuseum. org), talks about how he commissioned some of Jack Kirby’s greatest inkers to ink his recreated Jack Kirby pencils to make new comic art to compare pencils to inks. This art, plus a sampling of the Jack Kirby’s Museum’s Kirby Digital Archive, formed the largest online archive of Jack Kirby art, the no longer extant whatifkirby.com. He later conceived and designed the book Jack Kirby: Pencils and Inks, published by IDW, which showcased this comparison. This interview was copy-edited by Mike Cecchini, Rand Hoppe, and Kat King. Tom added additional details and images in December 2023.]
book, Captain America #193, which was when Jack Kirby returned to Marvel. I didn’t even recognize any of the comics. I just happened to be looking at the spinner rack and saw Captain America. At the time, I had only seen Fantastic Four from my friend, so I opened it up and saw Jack Kirby on the page-one splash and I thought, “Oh man, that’s the same guy that did Fantastic Four! I’m gonna buy this!” So I bought it. I still have it! Later on, George and I would ride our bikes to Empire Comics in Rochester once a week to see if there were any new comics we were looking for. I was only looking for Jack Kirby comics after seeing those Fantastic Four issues. HOPPE: So you had access to a back-issue comic shop early on! And while this was going on, were you drawing? KRAFT: I was about 16 or 17 when I started a scrapbook where I would redraw comic art by hand, from scratch. I’d draw Kirby comic pages at 100% size because that’s what I was looking at. I didn’t know that comic original art was larger or even existed. I had markers, inks, and watercolors, and I would draw and colorize everything like the printed comic. I still have that scrapbook, too. That’s when I started being obsessed with Jack Kirby and drawing Jack Kirby stuff. I continued to buy comics, working from the new comics back into DC issues like The New Gods, Kamandi, The Demon, and anything else I could get my hands on. I enjoyed the art in these series more than anything else, and they served as subject matter for my scrapbook.
RAND HOPPE: Tell us how you first became aware of Jack Kirby’s work. TOM KRAFT: Oh, that’s a long time ago, around 1975. I was about 15 years old and in high school. A friend of mine was collecting comic books and said I should look at them. He rode his bike to my house and brought about ten issues of The Fantastic Four. There were six or so Fantastic Four issues from the 1960s, like issues #65, 66, 67, and so on. HOPPE: Do you have any idea how he ended up having old comics? KRAFT: I’m not sure how he ended up having them, but he really liked comic books. I didn’t like comic books at the time. To me, comic books were Mickey Mouse, Daffy Duck, and Archie, not for me. Being about 15, I thought comics were kids’ stuff for eight- or nine- or ten-yearolds. But I had the impression that my friend wanted to show me what comic books could be, so he brought them over. When I saw those Fantastic Four issues, Jack Kirby’s art instantly blew me away. It was like, “I didn’t even think comic books could be like this! You convinced me!” He was really into war comics, too. He was reading Sgt. Fury, and he liked [offbeat titles like] Swamp Thing. Later, I would go over to his house, and he’d have stacks of comic books. He used to record the audio from old Star Trek episodes on a little cassette recorder so we could listen to them and read comics.
HOPPE: Did you do any art projects or take any art classes in school, or was that just stuff you were doing at home? KRAFT: It was home stuff at the beginning, but when I went to high school, we had an art class. I liked comic art very much… but I became more interested in graphic design. So I went to college for graphic design [at Rochester Institute of Technology]. There, I took a lot of art classes, including printmaking and pastels.
HOPPE: I think it’s fair to name-check your friend if you’re up for it. KRAFT: My friend is George Hammond. We grew up in Rochester, New York. I’ve since sent him a Jack Kirby Museum t-shirt in thanks for getting me into comic books back then. I started buying comics at a drugstore called Key Drugs. Key Drugs was where my sister worked. A little bit later, maybe around ’77-ish, I started working there too. I went there to buy comic books off the spinner rack. That’s where I bought my first comic 64
HOPPE: So it was R.I.T. where it all happened? KRAFT: Well, after high school, I went to Monroe Community College and took fine art classes, including oil
painting, drawing, and figure drawing. I earned a two-year associate’s degree, then went to R.I.T. for my Bachelor’s Degree. There, I learned graphic design, including print design, typography, photography, computer graphics, and mechanical production.
every Jack Kirby comic I owned and shoved it in the back of my closet. At my office, we had dial-up modems we used to get on the internet. One evening, working late, I read on a website that Jack Kirby had died in 1994. And I thought, “Jack Kirby… God, that’s the guy who did all that comic book stuff.” I didn’t even think anybody knew who he was. I just thought he was an artist I liked as a kid. I was surprised that he’d been so prominent in the comics industry. It got me thinking of grabbing my comic books and looking at them again. So I pulled out the longbox and all the comics were in those old plastic sleeves, which had yellowed and stuck together. They’d been sitting there, for I don’t know how many years without ever being removed. So I went online, learned about mylar sleeves, and bought mylar bags. As I was re-bagging these comics, I looked at them and said, “Wow, this is really great art. Jack Kirby is really, really good.” So that got me back into it. Then, around 1995, I finally heard about comic conventions. There was one at Ramapo High School in New York State. What was important about this one was that I saw original art for the first time. There was a dealer who had a Black Panther #3 page for $250. And I thought, “Wow, that’s really expensive, but I’m going to buy it anyway.” So, I bought my first comic book page there. I was just blown away seeing full-size black-and-white inked Jack Kirby art. I wanted to start collecting comic art. At that time, there weren’t many comic art collectors or dealers, and it was more word of mouth. Most dealers were just selling comic books. Some would sell a couple of pages here and there but there weren’t many in 1995 or ’96 who just sold comic art. But then I heard about ComicArt-L, a message group of art collectors. I was one of the first to join. The first collector that I reached out to [on there] was Dave Schwartz because I really wanted to get a two-page Kirby art spread. But he told me, “You’re a little bit too late. You should have gotten into comic art five years ago when it was cheap. Now it’s expensive.” I said, ‘Well, how much is a spread generally gonna cost me?’ and he said, “Well, you’re looking at
HOPPE: Was there a point where you were still keeping up with comics, or were other things taking over? Or with Jack Kirby not publishing, you didn’t go back to comics? KRAFT: I stopped collecting and reading comics when I started college. I didn’t know Kirby’s later comics, Super Powers or Captain Victory. After Kirby left Marvel in 1978, that was it for me. And plus, in college you tend to move away from comic books. Even then, everybody considered a comic book a kid’s thing, and I thought, “Okay, I’m serious now. I’m going to college. I’m taking art. I’m going to be a graphic designer.” I wanted to finish school and establish a career when I got out, so I moved to Boston. HOPPE: Did you participate in fanzines or go to comic book conventions in high school? KRAFT: To be honest, I didn’t even know they existed. Back then, you needed to be into the comics scene to know about comic conventions and events. You were unaware if you were just a casual collector like I was. HOPPE: What kind of work were you doing at the design company? KRAFT: I started just doing production work. That meant making photostats on a stat camera. I said I’d take any position. They offered the position to me, saying, “This is probably not the right job for you.” Within six months, I was promoted to a design position where I designed print annual reports and collateral under an art director. Then I became an art director, then a creative director, and finally, a part owner of the company, working with a team of creatives and developers building and designing “multimedia” applications and websites. HOPPE: How did comics and Jack Kirby come back into your life? KRAFT: From 1985 to 1994, I had nothing to do with comics. I brought them with me to Boston in a comic book longbox that had
65
WHAT IF KIRBY ART GALLERY Pencil art recreations by Tom Kraft throughout the gallery.
[next page, bottom] The first version of the What If Kirby website launched in 2001 and was replaced in 2010.
(above) Thor #156, page 1 and Thor #144 unused cover: inks, lettering and titling by Mike Royer.
$2,500 for a spread.” I said, ‘Wow, that’s a lot of money. Do you have any?’ He said, “I have a Black Panther #3 spread that I could sell to you for $2,500.” So, I bought it to add to the other Black Panther #3 panel page I bought previously. I thought to myself, ‘I’m going to try to complete this whole book.’ So for the next ten years, I tried and tried, but I never completed the book, missing three or four pages. Eventually, I sold or traded all those pages. HOPPE: You weren’t going to comic shops in Boston at all? Or was it just about the art? KRAFT: Around that time, I saw The Jack Kirby Collector, so that must have been around ’96, because it came out in ’94. I used to go to this comic shop called Million Year Picnic in Harvard Square. I was trying to fill in all the comics that I had missed… but there was really no place in the Boston area for comic art. So, I would go down to New York City for the shows at the church basement in St. Paul’s. I’d sometimes just drive down for the day. HOPPE: How did What If Kirby come about? KRAFT: It’s all thanks to The Jack Kirby Collector, really. It’s where I saw Jack’s pencils for the first time. The pencils were so beautiful and so powerful. I knew by this point what the original art looked like and its larger size. In 1999, Tod Seisser, a friend and fellow Kirby art collector, owned an almost complete Fourth World issue [in original art]—he was missing one page. He mentioned to me that he had talked to Kirby inker Mike Royer, who inked the story, about recreating the missing page. Back then, the way you talked to Mike Royer or anybody else was on the phone. For the most part, nobody was on the Internet, not much e-mail, no Facebook or anything like that. Tod gave me Mike’s phone number, and I called him. I was really nervous talking to him, like, “Oh my God, I’m talking to this guy who does incredible work and knows Jack Kirby.” By that time, of course, Jack was gone. So I talked to Mike and, because I loved his inking, I thought to myself, “What if I recreate Kirby’s 66
pencils?” At the time, and to a certain extent now, I didn’t like Vince Colletta’s inking. I didn’t like what he did to Jack’s pencils because I loved [Jack’s] art’s power and graphic nature. Colletta turned the raw power into tiny lines that, to me, took that power away and turned it into smoke. I thought, “What happens if I enlarge some of these pencil images from the Kirby Collector?” I had a computer, and we had scanners at my office at the design agency. So I started scanning the pencil art, enlarging it, and printing out pages at full original art size. I researched the right kind of paper, a two-ply Bristol board. The office had a large light table, so I could recreate the pencils there. Eventually, I got my own large lightbox and scanner at home. I would just trace and redraw the pencils. At first, getting the pencil lines right was challenging because I was trying to be very precise. In time, I realized that was not the best way to do this because Jack penciled quickly. So I learned not to care, meaning I would just stare at a section and see the strokes he did, and then I’d just start penciling it fast instead of trying to draw each line slowly. This gave me the best results. The Jack Kirby Collector became my resource since they’d publish some of the photocopies of Jack’s pencil art. If there was a page I liked, [I’d recreate the pencils]. It would take hours and hours, days and days to redraw the pencils. HOPPE: Then you would commission Royer? KRAFT: Yeah. I had a backlog of three pages I completed. They were page-one splashes from Thor issues #144, 177, and 166. I reached out to Mike again and asked him if he was interested in inking them. He said, “Yeah, I haven’t done a re-creation before, and I’ve never done anything like this, but I’d be interested… but you’ve gotta give me a lot of time because I’m working at Disney, and I’m on a schedule, but I can fit this stuff in between things.” I said, ‘I’m not in any rush. You could take as long as you want.’ I guess he took two or three months before I got them back in April 2000. Opening the package, I was
(left) Captain America #104, page 1: inks, lettering and titling by Mike Royer.
(right) Jimmy Olsen #139, page 1: inks, lettering and titling by Mike Royer (on next page).
HOPPE: It’s funny you were doing Thor because it just seems to me you were doing Thor because it was Colletta, right? KRAFT: Yes and no. The Kirby Collector printed the most number of Thor photocopy pencil pages, probably because Colletta’s biggest Kirby inking was on Thor. Plus, Thor was my favorite Marvel ’60s superhero, so I looked for those pages first. I always find it interesting over the years when somebody says, “Your preference and what you like in comic books has to do with nostalgia and the first comics you looked at.” I laugh because the first thing I saw was Kirby’s Fantastic Four, and it’s not my favorite by any means. I’d never really liked the Fantastic Four that much. I mean, I love the cosmic stuff, but Stan Lee’s dialogue just doesn’t do it for me. Visually, I love Jack’s art and panel design, especially from issue #42 right up to the end. That’s great visual storytelling art.
blown away by Mike’s inking. All the raw power of Jack’s pencils was back in Mike’s inks. Between 2000 and 2006, I commissioned several rounds of what I called “Creations,” including Jimmy Olsen covers and splashes, an unused The Demon cover, The New Gods #1 cover, more Thor splashes, a beautiful Thor #144 unused cover, and more, totaling over 20 pages. Most were originally inked by Colletta in the published comics. Later, Mike wanted to do the penciling because he felt he could provide better inking if he did the pencils. So he recreated the pencils and inked a complete four-page back-up story from Forever People #5, “Introducing Lonar.” Then, the complete four-page backup story to Mister Miracle #6, “Young Scott Free.” The last commission Mike did for me was three panels on the cover of the unpublished In the Days of the Mob #2 in 2018—a Creation I’m still working on. As of today, I haven’t sold or traded any of them. I have every single one I commissioned.
HOPPE: You also did some Jimmy Olsen and some New Gods. KRAFT: The Fourth World is my favorite out of everything Jack
HOPPE: But then you moved on to other inkers? KRAFT: In 2000, I got in touch with Dick Ayers. I have no idea how I got his information, but I called him. And the first thing I commissioned from him was the Amazing Adventures #6 cover with Sserpo. I didn’t recreate the pencils for that, just gave Dick a full-size black-&white printout. He did the pencils and inks with lettering by his son, Rich Ayers. I found out later on that George Klein did the original inking. Dick did a great job. At first, I didn’t work with him too much. I was focused on getting Mike Royer recreated pencil pages to ink. But eventually, Dick inked my recreated pencils to some of the same Thor splashes I had Mike do. It was interesting to see and compare how both great inkers approached the recreated pencils. I then commissioned Dan Adkins and Greg Theakston to do the same splashes on that idea. HOPPE: Was it kind of like, “I want Mike to ink some of those Colletta pages because I don’t like Colletta so much”? KRAFT: Yes. In the beginning, much of the effort was [having Royer ink] Thor [and also] the Jimmy Olsen issues, all originally inked by Colletta. I wanted Mike to do anything Colletta had inked that I could find and liked from the Kirby Collector. I felt Mike showed the greatest contrast to Colletta’s inking. Mike is, personally, my favorite inker and creates beautiful titling. 67
(above) Fantastic Four #64 unused cover: inks by Joe Sinnott, lettering and titling by Rich Ayers.
created. As with Thor, I like the gods concepts and science-fiction combined.
inked and still in Jack’s pencil form. HOPPE: So, how did the website come about? KRAFT: As a graphic designer, I learned how to design and build websites. I was really excited about the web and eager to learn this new technology. The web back then, compared to today, was very crude and limited. Bandwidth-wise, everybody had dial-up modems, but I thought it’d be really cool to have a website to showcase the work that I’d been doing with Mike Royer and Dick Ayers [and later, Joe Sinnott]. So, in 2000, I designed and built the first version of What If Kirby, which launched in 2001. It was a simple HTML black background website. At the time, there weren’t many comic-related websites on the young Internet. There were other fan sites, but most were text-based, with little images. I wanted the What If Kirby site to have large images that could toggle from Jack’s pencils to my recreated pencils to the inker’s inks and finally to the printed page—a way for the visitor to compare pencils to inks to print. The site stayed up for nine years until I replaced it with an improved website version. About 2008, I heard about an open source CMS [Content Management System] called Drupal and thought that this could be an excellent technology to rebuild the What If Kirby website and to make the site something special, something more social, something more engaging than just a black website. I spent a year or so learning how to code. I even hired a tutor to teach me how to build the new site. I started to design and develop the site, including the “Creations” section from the first site. Mike Royer would later call Creations “reimagined art.” I reached out to you and said, ‘I’m rebuilding the new What If Kirby site! We have all these scans that we’ve been archiving since 2006. [At this time, prior to becoming a trustee of The Jack Kirby Museum, I volunteered my time to scan art.] Would you be open to me posting them into a database so people can search, comment, and look at the art we’ve been scanning all these years?’ You said yes. The site was relaunched in 2010. It was kind of like the Facebook for Jack Kirby. I continuously added art from the Museum’s archive to the gallery section of What If Kirby and ended up with almost 1,200 pages of art that could be zoomed in and studied in great detail. We had a members section where they could assemble their own kind of Kirby art portfolio and share it with other members. The site attracted many people in comics history, artists and collectors. Some members included Mark Evanier, Frank Fusco, Erik Larsen, and Alan Kupperberg, the production artist who enlarged Kamandi’s figure
HOPPE: We’ve talked about Mike Royer and Dick Ayers. Were there others? KRAFT: Dick Ayers, who I already mentioned, was a wonderful person. He and his wife, Lindy, invited me to their house, where I did a video interview that’s on the Kirby Museum’s YouTube channel. I stayed overnight. Dick showed me the book that he eventually was going to create about his life. He was penciling it at the time and inking it. He had a hallway full of framed art, and he would talk about each, and then he also had a gallery showing. It was framed photocopies down at the local library. I videotaped him walking through all his art and talking about each page. In 2001, I contacted Joe Sinnott, another wonderful person, and was lucky to commission him to ink my recreated pencils. The first page was the unused cover of Fantastic Four #64, then a Journey Into Mystery #101 splash. The Jack Kirby Collector [see issue #16] published the page-one splash. I thought, ‘This would be the best thing to have Joe Sinnott ink!’ Joe Sinnott didn’t do lettering or titling, so Mike Royer did his excellent titling and lettering. He would later recreate the pencils himself and did a beautiful recreation of the cover of Fantastic Four #72 with the Silver Surfer that I have framed and hanging in my studio. And again, much later, Mick Gray inked the unused cover to Jimmy Olsen #133. Penciling and commissioning these pages was becoming time-consuming and expensive. But from the very beginning, I always felt that doing this work was, in a way, historical. It was a moment in time when all these great inkers were active in the industry and at their peak. It was an opportunity to see ‘what if’ they did ink those pages back in the ’60s. What if Mike Royer was there at Marvel in the ’60s doing Jack’s Fantastic Four or his Thor? What would that look like? What would it look like if Colletta didn’t ink Thor or Jimmy Olsen? Plus, it was enjoyable doing this stuff and meeting them. It’s something exciting to lightbox and redraw Jack’s pencils, seeing them come off the page. It’s just really cool. So the “What If” part of What If Kirby is the inker. I always tried to be as transparent as possible while re-penciling Jack’s pencils as accurately as possible onto the Bristol board. So, it has less to do with me, other than the fact that I chose what I wanted to re-pencil and who I wanted to commission. I want it to seem like the pages were never 68
Journey Into Mystery #101, page 1 : inks by Joe Sinnott, lettering/titling by Mike Royer. Joe’s note to Tom is below.
Tom’s pencils from Kirby’s 1976 pencils.
on the Kamandi #1 cover. They all commented on the art. A major comic artist came to us at the San Diego Comic-Con and said that he used the site as inspiration when he penciled his comic books. All that was great. I mean, it was working really well. I don’t know how many members we had at the time, but it had to be hundreds of members. That is, until Facebook became more popular. Jack Kirby fan pages were popping up on Facebook around 2011, with people posting Kirby art and discussing it. Facebook members would swipe What If Kirby’s comic art pages and post them for discussion, often without crediting the site or the Kirby Museum—the same on Twitter. The result was reduced member activity and fewer and fewer overall visitors. As the number of users decreased, I tried to promote the site on Twitter and set up a Facebook page for What If Kirby. I tried to make it work, but then, as you know, it pretty much died because of a lack of interest. HOPPE: Was it one of those situations where, in order to keep it secure, you would have had to completely upgrade to Drupal 10 or something like that? KRAFT: Yes. By the late 2010s, a new version of the site’s software came out, which was a significant improvement. However, it was a totally different code architecture. With fewer visitors and me not having the time to learn the new system, the site’s technology became obsolete as time passed, and the old software version was no longer supported. What if Kirby became an outdated liability due to the unsupported software, reduced traffic, and, most importantly, people pilfering the site and its images. In January 2020, almost twenty years after I started to design the site, after countless thousands of hours of work and the largest collection of original Kirby art on the Internet, I permanently took What If Kirby down. When I became a Trustee of the Kirby Museum, I decided to focus on the Museum, because that was the best way and a more official avenue to promote Jack Kirby, his art, and his legacy. It also allowed for exposure to more professionals, collectors, historians, and the Kirby family, situations I would never have had if I had stayed on the What If Kirby path. HOPPE: And all the while that you’re doing the What If Kirby project, you were still collecting art? KRAFT: Collecting, selling, and trading art. I went to my first San Diego Comic-Con in 1997, and it blew me away. I met Mike Thibodeaux and many other art dealers, and started to learn where all the art was and where it was going. The back of The Jack Kirby Collector had art for sale that the Jack Kirby Estate was selling. Compared to now, original art was super cheap. People would tell me back then that it was super expensive. So Preview Night 69
[below] The second and last version of the What If Kirby website relaunched in 2010 showing a Creations section detail page for toggling the four stages of art production.
(previous page & above) New Gods #1 cover; inks, lettering and titling by Mike Royer.
[below] Detail page of the Gallery, a showcase of the Kirby Museum’s growing Jack Kirby Digital Archive. [next page, top] Barry Ira Geller and Tom hold up one of the set design renderings by Jack Kirby and Barry, inked by Mike Royer, and meant for the unrealized Lord of Light movie and Science Fiction Land theme park.
(above) Jimmy Olsen #141 cover: inks and lettering Mike Royer; titling by Tom.
at Comic-Con involved running to dealers’ booths to beat other collectors, mainly to Thibodeaux’s booth, to be there first and buy! Back then, there was no real Internet for buying art. Most dealers would release special items, like the stuff that nobody had seen before, for sale in those late ’90s and early 2000s Comic-Cons. That was the biggest show. I continued to buy and trade art and got to know all the art dealers and collectors. And they got to know me because I was trading, buying and selling art. HOPPE: And it was all Kirby, all the time? There wasn’t any other art, and there weren’t any other artists that you were interested in? KRAFT: Later on, I was interested in John Romita Jr. I liked his Thor stuff, go figure. I collected some of his spreads and splashes—some of Jae Lee’s Inhumans
splashes. I like anything that’s strongly graphical, has a lot of power, with solid blacks. That’s why I tend not to like Colletta, because he didn’t have that. HOPPE: How exactly did we first meet? KRAFT: It was at one of those Big Apple Cons. I don’t know what year that was. My guess is around 2000 or maybe the early 2000s. I think it was through the Kirby-L e-mail list you created, that we first connected. I said I was coming down to New York for the Big Apple Con, and it was at the Hotel Pennsylvania. So I met you there, and then one of us suggested grabbing a bite down the street. HOPPE: Do you have any memory of what we talked about? KRAFT: I talked about the site and what I was doing with the re-creations back then. I don’t recall what else. HOPPE: How did you get involved with the Kirby Museum? KRAFT: I became a member of the Museum in 2005. At some point, I suggested the idea of scanning Jack Kirby’s comic art. In 2006, we met at the San Diego Comic-Con, and that was the first year we started scanning original art for the Museum’s archive. We probably planned that since you brought the Museum’s scanner. At the Con, you were set up with the scanner at John Morrow’s booth. I would talk to the art dealers at the Con because I formed previous relationships by buying comic art. I started by saying, “You know, we’ve started this project at the Museum to scan and catalog all of Jack Kirby’s art. Would you mind if we scanned your Kirby art for the archive?” All the dealers were great and lent us art to scan. We were the first ones to scan art at shows and create a digital archive. Later, IDW, Graffiti, and others would start scanning for publishing Artist Editions. But we were the first. We had top-of-the-line scanners, and we started scanning in archival specifications for museum requirements at the start. We scanned the art, front and back of the page, at 600 dpi, and later at 1200 dpi for
70
the front. Back then, hard drives were tiny, a couple of gigabits or less, so storage was always a concern. HOPPE: I definitely remember getting an e-mail from you where you said, “If you don’t have resources to buy stuff, you should probably start a project where you scan as much as you can.” And I thought, “This guy’s got the right idea.” And here we are. More than 14,000 pages later, nicknames for our scanners, scanners on the East Coast, and scanners on the West Coast, flying to Texas to scan… KRAFT: Going to collector’s houses and sitting at their kitchen table or even on their floor. HOPPE: …on collectors’ floors, scanning Jack Kirby’s original art for the fans, for posterity. Because does art burn up in house fires? Yes, it does. Does it get ruined in floods? Yeah. So we scan for posterity. KRAFT: Yes, collectors, auction houses, art dealers, and the Kirby family appreciate our efforts and are eager to have their art added. We’re on a mission to scan every available piece of Jack Kirby art, photos, documents… anything Jack Kirby touched. The archive is a way for us to provide resources to support other gallery shows, magazine publications, and other events. The Museum’s mission is to promote Jack Kirby and his cultural influence on all of us everywhere. This is one of our tools to do that. It’s our records.
but didn’t pay for my time. To make the prints, I scanned in the photostat of the “Planetary Control Room” art and [made those prints for them]. Barry and I continued to talk. Since he had the negatives, I told him that I could scan them, that I could print limited edition prints, and we could sell them. He was grateful for his partnership with Jack and wanted to support the Museum. He gave the Museum a percentage of our sales. I did all the work and printing, so that’s how I started down that path. Sadly, in 2022, Barry suddenly passed away.
HOPPE: Do you remember when you became a trustee of the Museum? KRAFT: 2010. HOPPE: It was John Morrow, Lisa Kirby, and me, and then Dave Schwartz joined, and then you joined. What can you tell us about your relationship with Barry Ira Geller? KRAFT: The backstory first. Barry Geller had the rights to Roger Zelazny’s novel Lord of Light—a science-fiction fantasy novel whose characters were gods using futuristic technologies in a HinduBuddhist-influenced world. With the book’s science-fiction theme, Barry conceived and scripted a film called Lord of Light, the same as the novel title. In conjunction with the film, a theme park called “Science Fiction Land” was to be built. Barry partnered with Jack to conceive of the theme park. Together, they created the park from 1978–1980. Jack penciled architectural set designs of the main buildings, an aerial park layout, and its avenues. Jack hired Mike Royer to ink and title his pencil artwork. The set designs were to be used for the film and theme park. I think it was in 1980 that, for various reasons, everything fell apart, and the film and theme park never happened. But it didn’t end there. Barry’s script and Kirby’s set designs were acquired by the CIA and used in a plot to free the hostages in Iran during the Iranian hostage crisis in 1981. The 2012 film Argo is roughly based on this story. Fast-forward to 1994, Barry planned to auction the “Science Fiction Land” set design art. Barry gave Roz Kirby the first original set design art that Barry had rejected, the “Streets of Heaven.” Before the auction at Christie’s, he had several sets of film negatives made of all the art. Later, he had positive paper photostat sets made that he sold online. So they took the negatives and made contact photostat prints. I bought a set in 2012. I have the first number one edition numbered set. But this was the last set he sold, the last set he had. To complete the purchase, I called him. He said finding a service bureau that made photostats from the negatives was impossible. I got to talking to him, and he was doing a documentary about the CIA, Science Fiction Land, and the Lord of Light film with a New York City documentary producer. They were using Kickstarter to raise money for it. He asked me to talk to them, and I agreed to print, as one of the fundraising levels, a smaller print of the “Planetary Control Room.” I agreed to print, I think, 50 of them. They paid my expenses
HOPPE: You weren’t just scanning the negatives and making a print. You were getting involved in a significant restoration of the linework, right? KRAFT: I restored all the art because the negatives were good, but anyone who knows original art may know there’s little true black. So a lot of the linework was kind of falling apart, because a negative is either black or white. There’s really no gray. So, I scanned the negatives at 1200 dpi and meticulously redrew, repaired, and cleaned up all the line work. It took me about two or three years to do them all. That’s probably working five hours a week on average for two years. HOPPE: Yeah, so that was significant. How many Kirby/Royer pieces were in the Lord of Light? None of your work was included in the Heavy Metal blacklight versions, right? KRAFT: There’s twelve. They used one from my work. They didn’t have the best scans from Barry’s image files, but they were good enough. Heavy Metal used them, with the exception of one scan that was lousy; it was way too small, the “Hostel of Hawkana.” They used my restored high-res file for that print. HOPPE: When the Museum sets up at conventions, we will often include some of the Lord of Light prints that come from your work, and then we’re able to participate in the revenue from that, as well. They’re absolutely beautiful reproductions. Was this the beginning of your Kirby deep-dive restoration work, rather than what you were doing with What If Kirby, where you were recreating pencils for other inkers? KRAFT: Yes, it is where I started my restoration work. By the mid-to-late 2000s, I stopped doing pencil recreations for What If Kirby, though the commissions continued with Mike Royer and Joe Sinnott. But both would do the pencils and the inks to make the Creations. HOPPE: When did you start working on punching up the “Dream Machine” or the “Tribes Trilogy” pieces? 71
KRAFT: The “Tribes Trilogy” was in 2018. It was fun to work on restoring the color. The most restoration work was on what we call “Lizard” because the background color was mainly faded except for the bright pink background color on the edges, which was covered and protected from the light by the frame it was in. I spent a good amount of time restoring that color, filling in the faded background to get it back to where I felt it looked when Jack finished it. I worked on the “Dream Machine” in 2015. The Dr. Martin’s watercolors were badly faded, and the two sides didn’t line up. Digital restoration included joining the pages and selectively restoring the colors, since specific colors faded at different rates. Then, I revisited the colors for a second time in 2022. The “Tribes Trilogy” and “Dream Machine” were sold as limited edition giclée prints.
probably bluer when Jack did it” or whatever because the blue [from Dr. Martin’s watercolors] was famously bad, but it’s still how it looks. It looks amazing. KRAFT: Well, thanks to the scan you actually scanned years ago in 2008! HOPPE: That was a dream come true to be able to scan that piece. KRAFT: Apparently, [the original] is not in good condition. It’s faded even more since then. So that’s another reason why it’s important to scan Kirby’s art, because it’s just slowly disintegrating. We capture a moment in time when the art exists, and it’s a good record. Because, like the “Dream Machine,” it won’t be in the same state as when you scanned it. HOPPE: What about some of the printing work you’ve done for the Museum’s pop-up exhibitions? KRAFT: When I was working with Barry Geller, I wanted to start printing those “Science Fiction Land” images out as limited edition prints. I realized that to have a printing service print on high-quality giclée paper was anywhere from $20 to $40 a print. I wanted to print hundreds of them, so I’d save more money by buying a large format high-end printer and having them printed. Plus, I have control over the output. Having the printer allowed us to print out large 24x48-inch wall displays of comic books and other items for our pop-ups.
HOPPE: Those Dr. Martin’s watercolors are fugitive colors—they run away! KRAFT: It’s too bad that Jack used them. In the world of comic books at that time, once you published something, you didn’t care too much about the original art or using archival materials. Jack’s collages were designed with newsprint, and his paintings were done with Dr. Martin’s watercolors. When he framed them without archival glass, colors faded. The collage newsprint paper he used was, of course, acidic. Over time, it yellowed and browned and became brittle.
HOPPE: I remember when we had our first pop-up, “Prototype: Alpha” in November 2013, and you printed out the “Dream Machine” in two pieces. It was eight feet high and 12 or 14 feet long, or something like that. And because you had that printer, you were able to print that fantastic Silver Surfer and Galactus Marvelmania image onto two sheets, and put them in the window that attracted people from the Williamsburg Bridge. KRAFT: I also printed several cover slogans from Jack’s Jimmy Olsen
HOPPE: We’re lucky that there were some pieces of it that were behind matte boards or pieces of framing, so we can see what the original colors were, and kind of intuit from there as to what it looked like. You’ve done amazing work with that. The “Tribes Trilogy” is amazing. But we both agree that the “Dream Machine” is almost too huge of a project. That could still be actually improved as far as those colors go. You look at it, and you can tell, “That was
72
series, like “Kirby Says: Don’t Ask! Just Buy It!” and changed it into “...Just Visit!” We made large printouts that we put up in the window. The displays were high-quality printouts of all the different stages of comic production from the digital archive. HOPPE: That was the “paper-based interactivity” where people were flipping back and forth between the printed version, the inked and lettered version of the original art, and then when we had the photocopy of the pencils. Those were all your prints that you had printed out. KRAFT: I then worked on an idea for an iPad application idea that I hacked together. It worked pretty well, allowing you to go from pencils to inks by simply sliding your finger horizontally across the iPad screen to see and control the transition. HOPPE: We also had that at the next pop-up that we had two years later, “Comics Combatives.” You created a few of those iPad iBooks with swipe technology that allowed it to happen, which was really captivating. People really enjoyed looking at that. Which kind of leads into the Pencils and Ink book in a way. Talk about that a little bit. KRAFT: Similar to the iPad application, I wanted to make a book to show pencils to inks. This was before the iPad application. I designed and put together an oversized [full original art dimensions] prototype with pencil photocopies that I could match to inked original art from the digital archive. I used Kamandi #6…
HOPPE: Your Kamandi prototype is in the Museum’s collection! KRAFT: ...I put that together by printing pages with the cover larger than the pages’ original art size. I met with a teacher at a book-binding school in the North End of Boston called The North Bennet Street School. The teacher took the project on for his class. They gave me instructions on dimensions. I printed the book out, and they cut it up and bound it together. They did an excellent job. So the whole idea was to go to DC Comics and say, “Look at this.” This was about the time when IDW was publishing [their Artist’s Editions]. At the San Diego Comic-Con, I talked to an editor at the DC booth and showed him the book. He liked it: “This looks great, but we’re using IDW to do all our Artist’s Editions, so why don’t you talk to them?” I was very disappointed. So we spoke to Scott Dunbier at IDW, and the Museum has been helping them by providing some of our scanned art for their Jack Kirby Artist’s Editions. They’ve been helpful in giving us some of their Kirby scans for our archives in exchange. I discussed the idea of “Pencils To Inks” with Scott and he liked it. He talked to DC, and DC was interested in it. So, the book was published smaller, 8" by 12". The first book was called Jack Kirby: Pencils And Inks Artisan Edition [published in 2016]. It featured the first issues of OMAC, The Demon, and Kamandi. I felt it came out really well. It was well received. At one San Diego panel, a panelist held up the book and said, “If you don’t have this book, get this book. I use this to help teach my art class.” HOPPE: You put a lot of time and effort into that. You really made that happen with IDW. It was an incredible, really great project. KRAFT: I did a lot of it. The photography, the layout, the design. I did all the production work and put the whole book together. Scott Dunbier did the direction, planning, and editing. HOPPE: You even got the people to write the intros and outros. That’s really your package. Maybe there’ll be another one! KRAFT: Mike Royer wrote the intro, Steve Sherman the “About this book,” and Lisa Kirby the Afterword. And yes, a second book is planned with IDW and Marvel: Jack Kirby’s Eternals Pencils and Inks, Artisan Edition, for 2024. HOPPE: When did we start talking about the giant comic books we did for some of the pop-ups? KRAFT: It was your idea! You’re the one that came up with it. The first one we did was for the pop-up at Dan Giella’s One Art Space in New York City that encompassed more of the whole history of Jack Kirby for Jack’s 100th birthday. We did a New Gods #7, a Fantastic Four #48…. HOPPE: You did those, and then I did a board version 73
[previous page, bottom] Tom’s color restoration to bring the “Lizard” art from Kirby’s Tribe Trilogy back to life. [left] The huge “Dream Machine” wall print-out and the “paper-based interactivity” displays at the Kirby Museum’s first 2013 pop-up, “Prototype: Alpha.” [bottom left] The Pencils to Inks interactive iPad display at the Kirby Museum’s 2015 “Comics Combatives” pop-up. [below] Tom tries to hold up the large-size facsimile of the 2001 Treasury Edition comic at the Kirby Museum’s 2018 “A Jack Kirby Odyssey” exhibit.
{above} Jack Kirby: Pencils and Inks book, with side-by-side pencils and inks of DC #1 issues of The Demon, Kamandi and OMAC, was conceived and designed by Tom—it’s shown here with the Kirby Museum’s variant cover. [below] The recently archived collage used to promote and present the New Gods to DC Comics, probably in 1969. [next page] Tom’s concept design for the Kirby Museum’s future Collections website.
of the romance story “Different” from Young Romance #24. Yours were much more elegant than mine. What was the scale on those? KRAFT: It was roughly twice-up, 13" x 24". HOPPE: Then, the next pop-up, we decided that we were going to feature Kirby’s 2001 work. So you took on this incredible amount of printing and folding of not only the Treasury adaptation as a hilariously large book, but then we also created all those other reading copies. KRAFT: That was so much work. The 2001 large size of the Treasury Edition was roughly 2 feet by 3 feet tall. I printed the front and back pages on one sheet of paper. So, each sheet had to be run twice through the printer. The last part was actually done by your wife, Lisa, the night before the opening of the pop-up. She stitched the
book together with fishing wire. That thing weighs a lot. I mean, it has a lot of paper in it. HOPPE: What do you think is in the future for yourself and the Jack Kirby project you’ve been involved in for so long? KRAFT: Well, the future is to take all these scans in the archive and, since we’re a nonprofit, make some accessible to the public, members, supporters of the Museum and historians. In some ways, the future is a collections website for the Kirby Museum. In my mind, it would pick up from where What If Kirby ended, but more accessible, extensive, and interactive. It will provide a great resource for research with a Catalogue Raisonné of all Jack’s work, and have one place where everyone can access information about Jack Kirby and promote his genius and his creations so everybody can use it. I don’t think it will be like What If Kirby in that What If Kirby was of a specific time when there was very little social media. It’s hard to compete with social media for people’s attention, so we must find a way to compete. One idea would be to have some type of interactive exhibition that we create, just like a digital pop-up. We’d put all that art and storytelling into a website section as a thematic exhibition. This could help in fundraising for the Museum. HOPPE: You’ve been working on the data for all our scans and turning that into a database, but then there’s also gathering information regarding Jack’s career for the Catalogue Raisonné. KRAFT: The Catalogue Raisonné is pulled from various sources, including TwoMorrows’ Jack Kirby Checklist, the Grand Comics Database, Heritage Auctions, Mike’s Amazing World of Comics, The Big Cartoon Database, and even the U.S. Copyright Office, among others. In the Kirby Digital Archive,
74
we have scans of the front and back [of every piece of art], so we have additional information for the Catalog. For example, job code numbers that nobody has because the printed version either doesn’t have them or whited them out in the printed version, but the original art does. Job numbers and production dates written on the back of the original art help us create a timeline for when Jack drew a story during his entire career. So we feel there’ll be unique information for research. There’s so much more potential in what we can do with this data. But the scans can tell the story of how much Jack was really involved in writing the story in terms of his pencil notes in the original art’s margins, when he was working for Stan Lee at Marvel in the ’60s. Unfortunately, much of the art was trimmed, and some of the notes were erased. But seeing what remains and reading the story, you can see how much writing and plotting was done by Jack, and it seems the story was kind of there in those notes. Stan Lee wrote the dialogue in most cases, [but] in some cases [Jack] actually put the dialogue that would go into the balloons.
enough happened less and less, and that’s when the margin notes kicked in, which we’ve noted [as beginning around 1964]. How about people coming to you with Kirby art to scan that you could tell was not authentic? KRAFT: That’s happened at a convention or two, but it’s generally a rarity. I, of course, wouldn’t scan it. We get e-mails from people occasionally asking about authenticity, and unfortunately, the Museum does not officially authenticate Jack Kirby’s art. We usually recommend that people do more research, such as contacting a comic art dealer or an auction house for an appraisal. HOPPE: Any real highlights you can think of regarding scanning early Marvel heroes, and rare or interesting Kirby work for the Digital Archive?
HOPPE: There are many treasures in scanning original art at high resolution and archival quality. KRAFT: We are cataloging it all in databases now. We’re moving everything out of spreadsheets. I’m reorganizing all the scans in chronological order. And then I’m also researching all of them because there are many cases where we scan things more than once, up to a better high-quality digital negative format. So, it means comparing things, finding out where duplicates are, and ensuring the information is as accurate as possible. I’ve almost completed the original art scans, but there are at least 7,500 pages of photocopies of Jack’s pencil art to go through. Our work in building Catalogue Raisonné and Digital Archive will go into a Collections website for the Museum. To me, this is the next level of an online experience for our members, historians, researchers, and Kirby enthusiasts worldwide. We are currently in fundraising mode to build it. HOPPE: And photocopies of his animation designs… KRAFT: Yeah, there’s that, too. We use Airtable, a low-code platform, to build relational databases and future apps. So, the platform removes redundancy. Also, in the future, Airtable should allow us the ability to use it as a data source for the Collections website. As we update the database, it will also update the online Catalogue Raisonné and Digital Archive sections of the Collections website. We may have a broad listing of everything we have for the Kirby Digital Archive, but feature a select set of art since we can’t show all 14,000 images.
KRAFT: We scanned a rare piece of Fantastic Four advertising art from Hulk #1.
HOPPE: So people would know what we have, but we wouldn’t be showing it all. KRAFT: Not all in image format, but a complete listing of all we’ve scanned. That way, they can look at the list and say to themselves, “Well, they don’t have my art. Maybe I’ll contact them.”
HOPPE: That’s right, which was hilariously manipulated. Reed’s arm was originally around Ben. KRAFT: They whited it out and moved it over, and [there were] a lot of shenanigans on that. Another highlight was the discovery of Kirby’s New Gods promotional collage. It may have been used as a presentation piece to sell the idea to DC. A person showed up at a convention in 2019 with a box of random art, photocopies, and magazines. He mentioned he bought the box from Roz Kirby herself and wanted to sell the whole thing. In it was the New Gods collage. I ended up scanning it and all the contents later in San Diego. It was a big surprise.
HOPPE: Have you ever seen writing on the back of pages? There’s a quote from Jack from an old Comics Journal interview. “I would write out the whole story on the back of every page. I would write the dialogue in the back. A description of what was going on.” KRAFT: We’ve never seen that. We’ve seen Stan Lee kind of scribbling on the back of some pages. For example, Fantastic Four #3 looks like Stan and Jack were designing the “4” logo for the Fantastic Four’s uniforms. Also, on some FF #3 pages, it looks like Stan was sketching out the page layout. I’m unsure if that was something that he was doing with Jack to tell Kirby how to lay out things, which I kind of doubt, or if he was just sketching it out during the conversation with Jack to get an idea of what dialogue to put in.
HOPPE: Any last thoughts? KRAFT: It has been a fun journey after rediscovering Kirby in the ’90s. I’m grateful for all the friends I’ve made along the way, the members who supported the What If Kirby website, art dealers and collectors who have contributed to the Kirby Digital Archive, and for being a part of the Jack Kirby Museum as it grows into the future. H
HOPPE: I’m not really sure either. I mean, it seems like it’s something where Stan and Jack were in the room together. Which soon
To donate: https://kirbym.us/e/coll or text “KIRBYCOLLECT” to 44-321 75
C o l l e c t o r
The JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR magazine (edited by JOHN MORROW) celebrates the life and career of the “King” of comics through INTERVIEWS WITH KIRBY and his contemporaries, FEATURE ARTICLES, RARE AND UNSEEN KIRBY ART, plus regular columns by MARK EVANIER and others, and KIRBY’S UNINKED PENCILS NS from the 1960s–1980s EDITIOABLE IL (from photocopies AVA NLY preserved in the KIRBY ARCHIVES). Now in FULLFOR O 5.99 COLOR, it showcases Kirby’s art even better! $1.99-$
DIGITAL
Go online for other issues, and an ULTIMATE BUNDLE with in-stock back issues at HALF-PRICE!
KIRBY COLLECTOR #81
KIRBY COLLECTOR #82
KIRBY COLLECTOR #77
KIRBY COLLECTOR #78
KIRBY COLLECTOR #79
MONSTERS & BUGS! Jack’s monster-movie influences in The Demon, Forever People, Black Magic, Fantastic Four, Jimmy Olsen, and Atlas monster stories; Kirby’s work with “B” horror film producer CHARLES BAND; interview with “The Goon” creator ERIC POWELL; Kirby’s use of insect characters (especially as villains); MARK EVANIER and our other regular columnists, Golden Age Kirby story, and a Kirby pencil art gallery!
SILVER ANNIVERSARY ISSUE! How Jack Kirby kickstarted the Silver Age and revamped Golden Age characters for the 1960s, the Silver Surfer’s influence in comics, pivotal decisions (good and bad) Jack made throughout his comics career, an extensive Kirby pencil art gallery, MARK EVANIER and our regular columnists, a classic 1950s story, KIRBY/STEVE RUDE cover, and more!
See “THE BIG PICTURE” of how Kirby fits into the grand scheme of things! His creations’ lasting legacy, how his work fights illiteracy, a RARE KIRBY INTERVIEW, inconsistencies in his 1960s MARVEL WORK, editorial changes in his comics, big concepts in OMAC, best DOUBLE-PAGE SPREADS, MARK EVANIER’s 2019 Kirby Tribute Panel, PENCIL ART GALLERY, and a new cover based on OMAC #1!
(100-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $5.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
KIRBY COLLECTOR #83
KIRBY COLLECTOR #84
KIRBY COLLECTOR #85
“KIRBY: BETA!” Jack’s experimental ideas, characters, and series (Fighting American, Jimmy Olsen, Kamandi, and others), Kirby interview, inspirations for his many “secret societies” (The Project, Habitat, Wakanda), non-super-hero genres he explored, 2019 Heroes Con panel (with MARK EVANIER, MIKE ROYER, JIM AMASH, and RAND HOPPE), a pencil art gallery, UNUSED JIMMY OLSEN #141 COVER, and more!
“THE MANY WORLDS OF JACK KIRBY!” From Sub-Atomica to outer space, visit Kirby’s work from World War II, the Fourth World, and hidden worlds of Subterranea, Wakanda, Olympia, Lemuria, Atlantis, the Microverse, and others! Plus, a 2021 Kirby panel, featuring JONATHAN ROSS, NEIL GAIMAN, & MARK EVANIER, a Kirby pencil art gallery from MACHINE MAN, 2001, DEVIL DINOSAUR, & more!
FAMOUS FIRSTS! How JACK KIRBY was a pioneer in all areas of comics: Romance Comics genre, Kid Gangs, double-page spreads, Black heroes, new formats, super-hero satire, and others! With MARK EVANIER and our regular columnists, plus a gallery of Jack’s pencil art from CAPTAIN AMERICA, JIMMY OLSEN, CAPTAIN VICTORY, DESTROYER DUCK, BLACK PANTHER, and more!
STEVE SHERMAN TRIBUTE! Kirby family members, friends, comics creators, and the entertainment industry salute Jack’s assistant (and puppeteer on Men in Black, Pee Wee’s Playhouse, and others). MARK EVANIER and Steve recall assisting Kirby, Steve discusses Jack’s Speak-Out Series, Kirby memorabilia from his collection, an interview with wife DIANA MERCER, and Steve’s unseen 1974 KIRBY/ROYER cover!
KIRBY: ANIMATED! How JACK KIRBY and his concepts leaped from celluloid, to paper, and back again! From his 1930s start on Popeye and Betty Boop and his work being used on the 1960s Marvel Super-Heroes show, to Fantastic Four (1967 and 1978), Super Friends/Super Powers, Scooby-Doo, Thundarr the Barbarian, and Ruby-Spears. Plus EVAN DORKIN on his abandoned Kamandi cartoon series, and more!
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
KIRBY COLLECTOR #86
KIRBY COLLECTOR #87
KIRBY COLLECTOR #88
KIRBY COLLECTOR #89
BACK ISSUE #131
KIRBY COMPARISONS! Analysis of unused vs. known Kirby covers and art, BARRY WINDSOR-SMITH on his stylizations in Captain America’s Bicentennial Battles, Kirby’s incorporation of real-life images in his work, WILL MURRAY’s conversations with top pros just after Jack’s passing, unused Mister Miracle cover inked by WALTER SIMONSON, and more! Edited by JOHN MORROW.
LAW & ORDER! Kirby’s lawmen from the Newsboy Legion’s Jim Harper and “Terrible” Turpin, to Western gunfighters, and even future policemen like OMAC and Captain Victory! Also: how a Marvel cop led to the creation of Funky Flashman! Justice Traps The Guilty and Headline Comics! Plus MARK EVANIER moderating 2022’s Kirby Tribute Panel (with Sin City’s FRANK MILLER). MACHLAN cover inks.
THE COLLECTORS! Fans’ quest for and purchase of Jack’s original art and comics, MARV WOLFMAN shares his (and LEN WEIN’s) interactions with Jack as fans and pros, unseen Kirby memorabilia, an extensive Kirby pencil art gallery, MARK EVANIER moderating the 2023 Kirby Tribute Panel from Comic-Con International, plus a deluxe wrap-around Kirby cover with foldout back cover flap, inked by MIKE ROYER!
KIRBY CONSPIRACIES! Darkseid’s Fourth World palace intrigue, the too-many attempted overthrows of Odin, why Stan Lee hated Diablo, Kang contradictions, Simon & Kirby swipes, a never-reprinted S&K story, MARK EVANIER’s WonderCon 2023 Kirby Tribute Panel (with MARV WOLFMAN, PAUL S. LEVINE, and JOHN MORROW), an extensive Kirby pencil art gallery, and more!
THE KIRBY LEGACY AT DC! Explores Jack Kirby’s post-Fourth World Bronze Age DC characters! Demon, Kamandi, OMAC, Sandman, and Kirby’s Odd Jobs (Atlas, Manhunter, and more). Plus: the SIMON & KIRBY Reunion That Wasn’t! Featuring BISSETTE, BYRNE, CONWAY, GIBBONS, GOLDEN, GRANT, RUCKA, SEMEIKS, THOMAS, TIMM, WAGNER, and more. Demon cover by KIRBY and MIKE ROYER!
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $9.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Now shipping!
Jack Kirby Books THE BEST OF SIMON & KIRBY’S
MAINLINE COMICS In 1954, JOE SIMON & JACK KIRBY founded MAINLINE PUBLICATIONS to publish their own comics during that turbulent era in comics history. The four titles—BULLSEYE, FOXHOLE, POLICE TRAP, and IN LOVE—looked to build off their reputation as hit makers in the Western, War, Crime, and Romance genres, but the 1950s backlash against comics killed any chance at success, and Mainline closed its doors just two years later. For the first time, TwoMorrows Publishing is compiling the best of Simon & Kirby’s Mainline comics work, including the COMPLETE RUN OF BULLSEYE, plus all of the Mainline stories with S&K art, as well as key tales with contributions by MORT MESKIN and others. This collection bridges the gap between Simon & Kirby’s peak with their 1950s romance comics, and the lows that led to Kirby’s resurgence with CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN and the early MARVEL UNIVERSE. With loving art restoration by CHRIS FAMA, and an historical overview by JOHN MORROW to put it all into perspective. NOW SHIPPING! (256-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $49.95 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-118-9
KIRBY & LEE: STUF’ SAID
This EXPANDED SECOND EDITION of JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR #75 includes minor corrections, and 16 NEW PAGES of “Stuf’ Said” by the creators of the Marvel Universe! This first-of-its-kind examination, completed just days before STAN LEE’s passing, looks back at KIRBY & LEE’s own words, in chronological order, from fanzine, magazine, radio, and television interviews, to paint the most comprehensive and enlightening picture of their relationship ever done—why it succeeded, where it deteriorated, and when it eventually failed. Also here are recollections from STEVE DITKO, WALLACE WOOD, JOHN ROMITA SR., and more Marvel Bullpen stalwarts who worked with them both. Compiled, researched, and edited by publisher JOHN MORROW. NOW SHIPPING! (176-page FULL-COLOR trade paperback) $26.95 • (Digital Edition) $12.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-094-6
JACK KIRBY’s
Reprints JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR #23-26, plus new art! (288-page trade paperback) $29.95 ISBN: 978-1-60549-003-8 Diamond Order Code: JUN084280
DINGBAT LOVE
ER EISN RD AWAINEE! M NO
COLLECTED KIRBY COLLECTOR VOL. 6
In cooperation with DC COMICS, TwoMorrows compiles a tempestuous trio of never-seen 1970s Kirby projects! These are the final complete, unpublished Jack Kirby stories in existence, presented here for the first time! Included are: Two unused DINGBATS OF DANGER STREET tales (Kirby’s final Kid Gang group, inked by MIKE ROYER and D. BRUCE BERRY, and newly colored for this book)! TRUE-LIFE DIVORCE, the abandoned newsstand magazine that was too hot for its time (reproduced from Jack’s pencil art—and as a bonus, we’ve commissioned MIKE ROYER to ink one of the stories)! And SOUL LOVE, the unseen ’70s romance book so funky, even a jive turkey will dig the unretouched inks by VINCE COLLETTA and TONY DeZUNIGA. PLUS: There’s Kirby historian JOHN MORROW’s in-depth examination of why these projects got left back, concept art and uninked pencils from DINGBATS, and a Foreword and Introduction by ’70s Kirby assistants MARK EVANIER and STEVE SHERMAN! NOW SHIPPING! (176-page FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER) $43.95 • (Digital Edition) $14.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-091-5
NOW IN A SEARCHABLE DIGITAL EDITION!
JACK KIRBY CHECKLIST: CENTENNIAL EDITION
This final, fully-updated, definitive edition is DOUBLE the length of the 2008 “Gold Edition,” in a new 272-page, FULLY SEARCHABLE DIGITAL EDITION listing every release up to Jack’s 100th birthday! Detailed listings of all of Kirby’s published work, reprints, magazines, books, foreign editions, newspaper strips, fine art and collages, fanzines, essays, interviews, portfolios, posters, radio and TV appearances, and even Jack’s unpublished work! (272-page DIGITAL EDITION) $9.99
TwoMorrows. The Future of Comics History. TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA
ALTER EGO COLLECTORS' ITEM CLASSICS
Compiles the sold-out DITKO, KIRBY, and LEE issues, plus new material on each! (256-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $35.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-116-5 Diamond Order Code: NOV221887
Phone: 919-449-0344 E-mail: store@twomorrows.com Web: www.twomorrows.com Don’t miss exclusive sales, limited editions, and new releases! Sign up for our mailing list:
https://groups.io/g/twomorrows
Collector
Send letters to: THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR c/o TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 E-mail: twomorrow@aol.com See back issue excerpts at: www.twomorrows.com
Comments
(What if you wrote us a letter? Let’s find out!)
[One quick update: The unnamed woman in filmstrip photo #3 from page 8 of TJKC #88 is Sharman DiVono. She had a short career in comics, writing the STAR TREK comic strip, and a few things for DC Comics in the 1970s.] If you have the PENCIL version of Pure Imagination’s 1987 HEROES & VILLAINS sketchbook, please answer these questions, so we can accurately document the different versions for the JACK KIRBY CHECKLIST: 1) Is yours signed and numbered by Jack, and if so, what number? 2) Does it have the inked “Dream Machine” endpapers, of if the endpapers are blank, is there a small loose plate with the Dream Machine image? 3) Does it say “Printed in Canada” on the bottom of the page with Jack’s photo? E-mail answers to: twomorrow@aol.com Thought this might interest you. The BBC did an article on the rarely seen CIA internal museum this week, and showed that some of Jack Kirby’s ARGO artwork is in there. Here’s the link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-uscanada-63023876 Russell Payne, UNITED KINGDOM #88 was a great issue; actually better than expectations. I was pleasantly surprised at how tremendous the fold-out cover looked when it was radically enlarged from the SubAtomica-sized Marvelmania envelope. And colored, too. Besides more pronounced detail in the drawing—including Cyclops’ second leg, previously unnoticed by me—it also had me pondering why some characters of the day were featured and others ignored. Space limitations, certainly. But, Black Knight and Ulik included, while Iron Man didn’t make the roster? No Reed and Sue? Also loved all the Kirby convention photos inside. A wonderful assortment; many that I hadn’t seen. While I always like seeing art, photos are certainly most welcome, too. Though I’m not a qualified psychologist, able to rebuke your editorial diagnosis of collectors suffering from OCD, as a group, I suggest, instead, it might be more of a loving connection with the work itself. No one collects everything. They specialize in what hits them just right. That could be a character, company, or individual talents. Everyone has their favorites. In reading your collectors’ essays, there were areas in which I could definitely identify, such as delight in spotting new issues on the stands or looking to friends’ older brothers for back issues.
Most amusingly: skipping meals and using the money for comics. I started with FF #55 and thought, at the time, any older kid who began with FF #54 or earlier had to be so cool! Almost immediately, I desperately wanted to read the five years of stories that I had missed. MARVEL COLLECTORS’ ITEM CLASSICS, with early reprints, was great in that regard. It bothered me tremendously that I didn’t have them all. Not understanding it was a tease, I was sure I’d simply missed the issue where Dr. Doom was shown unmasked, rather than a blocked view. The one that really was difficult was #19, with Rama Tut. Could never find it. Wasn’t included in the MCIC run. When I’d occasionally score some back issues, it wasn’t among them. To my amusement, after looking so diligently, I came across a copy, by accident, seven years after the original release. I was stunned, in 1970, at a barber shop, to see a Kirby FF cover I didn’t recognize, with the team in Egypt! That was hilarious, in retrospect, about Will Murray cutting figures from his comics with scissors. No overlap there, thankfully. I wouldn’t even snip coupons or Marvel Value Stamps. But, in a way, he got double the value for his twelve cents. He could enjoy the stories, then even have more fun, on his own terms, snipping out particularly good poses. Not so easy today. You have to break open the slab before you can start clipping away. Original art now? Good luck! That might entail a lottery win or a co-signer. With both Kirby comics and art, there still are other options. For comics, they still can be read and collected in reprint volumes. Far less expensive than chasing them in their original printed form. With art, any of the IDW Artist’s Editions or even online, at Heritage Auctions, clicking on and enlarging a page to see minute details in how it was drawn. Not as unique as the originals, but a whole lot more affordable. These days, I’m a windowshopper, but that can still be fun, too. What’s especially nice is so many who shared their pages, here, have had and enjoyed them so long. The fact Marv Wolfman still has his Kirby Thor drawing, almost sixty years later, from when he was a teen, has to be measured in appreciation and affection, not dollars and cents. I cracked up at your noting and explaining the SUPER-ADDRESS BOOK. Hadn’t heard of it or seen one, previously. The fact it was never produced could account for that. Wild guess: the author didn’t ask first. For comics talent, under deadline, signing a deluge of autograph requests and playing pen pal would be bad enough, but impromptu visits to their homes or studios would even be worse. Besides, many comics firms would forward mail. No need to have the home addresses compromised. Joe Frank, Scottsdale AZ 78
Not far into TJKC #88—got a couple of comments. 1) Page 15, mention is made again (by Mark) that FANTASTIC FOUR #100 was to be a giant, then the decision changed and Jack forced to redraw many pages, hence the nine-panel grid. I know I’ve written about this before, but I really think—unless evidence turns up—that this is a mis-memory. A change mid-story definitely happened, but it’s not a 40-page story cut to 20, but a 20-page story cut to 19! A special giant issue of a normal series was UNKNOWN at Marvel at that time! SPIDER-MAN #100 wasn’t giant. AVENGERS #100 wasn’t giant. The first one to do that was FF #200—that wasn’t until EIGHT YEARS LATER in 1978. (All issues going giant for a month or two in late 1971 can’t be counted—that was an across-the-board decision, not a single special issue of someone’s subscription.) Also, if Jack was forced to redraw a story into smaller panels, where are all the unused pages? Plenty of unused THOR pages have turned up—there are NONE for FF #100—except one! That one page was reproduced by you—badly inked—in TJKC #9. And where does it fit into FF #100? Right where the page cut happened—where pages 12 and 13 were suddenly half-pages. Jack was forced to junk a scene where the Hulk android is revealed—and redraw where the FF are on that “flying” boat, so that the story comes in at 19 full pages, not 20. How much of another page he had to redraw to compensate, we can’t know. Jack must have been far ahead on THOR in scheduled stories, because whereas this was the FIRST FF to be cut back, THOR had already been 19 pages for a couple of months. And he mustn’t have got the “memo” until well into this story. I think the nine-panel grid was an edict of Stan’s before the story began, not a redraw, since they wanted more characters to turn up in this centennial issue, and Jack’s usual big panel size wouldn’t allow that. This doesn’t alter Mark’s point—that Jack was annoyed by the unpaid redraw requests—but to question this repeated assertion of the giant FF #100. I can’t see that at all. 2) Page 18, mention is made of the junking of a two-page spread for the SILVER SURFER GN. The point there is that Jack wasn’t paid for the redo, and this comment has no bearing on that issue, but I simply want to point out that the reason for the double-pager being rejected is practical: a double-page spread simply couldn’t be printed on two facing pages at that point. Books always start with page 1 on the right side (back then anyway), and to keep that doublepager intact, they would have had to have page 1 on the left. In a comic, an ad page could be juggled around to accommodate it, but not in an ad-free book. Jack must not have kept this in mind when deciding to do the double-pager. Perhaps that was the publisher’s reasoning for not paying Jack for the redo? The second double-
pager, thankfully, was correctly positioned by Jack. 3) I wonder who scripted the BOY EXPLORERS story? Who would have written of an “incredulous occurrance”? (page 51, panel 1) A totally wrong word followed by a spelling mistake! Wow! Shane Foley, AUSTRALIA [I think I’m the one that got the ball rolling on the idea that FF #100 was originally meant to be a doublesize issue, espousing that theory way back in TJKC #9. Shane’s reasoning against a normal series going double-size is very sound, but it still bugs me how Jack uncharacteristically went with the nine-panel grid repeatedly in #100, but not once in #99 or #101—and used it much more in the second half of the issue. It seems obvious to me that something changed midstream, after starting out with some leisurely-paced panel pages. See this issue’s Gallery for my take on just what that might’ve been.] I recently just got back into reading comics, and re-discovered TwoMorrows. I’ve read the collected volumes of TJKC, and many of the tabloid-sized—I still can’t believe people complained they’re too big! I love Kirby’s work at that size, especially since his pencils are so detailed. I’m reading back issues, like your excellent Kirby OLD GODS & NEW book. I want to thank you for printing these books on matte paper; I think the colors look so much better, and both text and art are more readable because matte paper is more absorbent. The colors in the Kirby GODS book are fantastic, they really pop—the God portraits inked by Don Heck never looked so good, in my opinion. Anyway, I don’t know if you covered Marvel’s COMPLETE KIRBY WAR AND ROMANCE omnibus in TJKC, which includes short war stories from the ’50s, and his SGT. FURY stories. The early war stories are autobiographical, hidden gems, Kirby relating what it actually feels like to be a soldier, going into a war zone for the first time. The romance stories are mostly inked by Vince Colletta—full disclosure, I don’t like Colletta’s inking style on Jack at all. His skritchy line, all the feathering, is counter to Jack’s style. I much prefer Chic Stone, Bill Everett, and George Klein on THOR. I found Vince less annoying on the romance stuff, he prettied up the women, which fits for romance, although I preferred Al Hartley’s inks. But at the back of the book, they included scans of the original art, and would you believe it? Vince even erased stuff on the romance stories! I understand Vinnie was overloaded, and Jack’s pencils for his mythic fantasy and sci-fi superheroes were jam-packed, so okay, that’s his excuse. But Jack’s romance stories are appropriately more sparse, and STILL Vinnie erased background figures, trees, buildings, furnishings, knick-knacks, designs on curtains and bedding; he even turned fully drawn detailed characters—not into silhouettes, but just Here’s a tentative list of upcoming themes, so start thinking, and get to writing! SEND US YOUR THEME IDEAS! • #92: IN THE NEWS—From the BBR to newspaper clippings with interviews and articles about Jack, Jimmy Olsen and the Newsboy Legion, newspaper strip work, unused strip concepts, Headline Comics, and more! WINTER 2025!
outlines. The colorist filled them in with blocks of color. He also sometimes made skirts and dresses shorter, although I think that was an editorial edict. It also looks like Jack wrote the text; I can see penciled letters under the inks. As a letter writer to TJKC once stated, why would Jack fill in Stan’s script on his penciled pages? I wish TJKC would cover more of Jack’s romance work. I understand the boys think romance comics will give them cooties, but Jack invented the genre, and his romance stories contain some of his most poignant, and at times, autobiographical work. The Simon & Kirby romance stories are mini-dramas, that explore topics like alcoholism, slum living, crime and the evils of poverty, and how social/gender norms were destructive. I have the three Simon & Kirby romance collections, two from Fantagraphics and the b-&-w one from Eclipse. I’m looking forward to picking up the Mainline collection when I get paid. One of your writers once said that the Comics Code had no effect on romance comics, proving he hadn’t read many. Pre-code romance girls didn’t always have to be “good,” romances didn’t always have to end up in marriage—something practically mandated by the Code. Stories could be more gritty, and realistic. Certainly it was a popular genre with a lot of bad imitators, but the best of it is amazing. Simon & Kirby did some great romance stories, with excellent art. Kirby excelled at the gritty urban scenes, especially the slums. They suffer from being reprinted smaller than Golden Age size, so the text-heavy nature of S&K’s romance comics make pages look squashed by text. It would’ve been great to see the Simon & Kirby romance pages in TJKC tabloid size, when you were doing that. I know you’ve covered the ’70s romance work in TJKC, and I’m thrilled with the DINGBAT LOVE collection, which finally collects these jewels. I agree with you, the DIVORCE stories are better than the SOUL LOVE stories. If the DIVORCE idea had been tweaked, rather than seeming to focus on divorce—given that only half the stories ended with divorce—if it was promoted as a “Troubles In Love,” or “Marriage Problems,” it would have been what the genre needed at that time. Although I think DC set Jack up to fail on his magazine idea, no professional mag has ever been written, drawn, and edited by one person, let alone a series. You do a great job on the art reproductions, like the Kirby pencil books of CAPTAIN VICTORY and SILVER STAR—I just missed out on DESTROYER DUCK. I loved the stories you reprinted in the QUALITY COMPANION, the scans looked great on the matte cream paper, and it was fun getting to actually read stories from Quality. There are so many poorly done Golden Age collections, if you ever thought of getting into that, I’d trust your quality, and excitedly buy whatever you chose to publish. Kit Tenerelli, McKinleyville, CA • #93: SUPPORTING PLAYERS!—From second-string villains to little guys bringing up the rear, TJKC #93 gives top billing to some of the lesser lights of Jack’s oeuvre! Almost major badguys like Darkseid’s crony Kanto the Assassin, and wannabe “Loser” Rodney Rumpkin, take center stage, proving there’s deep meaning to be found in even Jack’s minor concepts—and we’re digging it out this issue! SPRING 2025!
79
#90 Credits:
John Morrow, Editor/Designer/ Proofreader THANKS TO OUR CONTRIBUTORS: Norris Burroughs • Nick Cagnetti Steve Ditko • Mark Evanier Christopher Fama • Shane Foley Barry Forshaw • Michael Greczek Rand Hoppe • Larry Houston Sean Kleefeld • Richard Kolkman Tom Kraft • Paul Levitz • Ron Lim Ross Morrison • Will Murray Mike Royer • Tom Scioli Walter Simonson • Robin Snyder J. David Spurlock • Damian Pickador Zajko • and The Jack Kirby Museum (www.kirbymuseum.org) If we forgot anyone, let us know!
Contribute!
The Jack Kirby Collector is put together with submissions from Jack’s fans around the world. We don’t pay for submissions, but if we print art or articles you submit, we’ll send you a free copy of the issue it appears in. Submit art & articles by mail, or e-mail to: twomorrow@aol.com
NEXT ISSUE: OUR 30th ANNIVERSARY ISSUE, with KIRBY’S GREATEST VICTORIES! How Jack got the girl (wife ROZ), had early mega-hits with Captain America and Boy Commandos, survived WWII, pioneered romance comics, launched Captain Victory and spearheaded the direct market, finally won his original art battle with Marvel, and eventually got creator credit! Plus MARK EVANIER, a colossal gallery of Kirby’s winningest pencil art, a never-reprinted Simon & Kirby story, and more! TJKC #91 ships September 17, 2024 (exactly 30 years after #1)!
Winter 2025 (TJKC #92):
KIRBY IN THE NEWS!
Get RetroFan back issues! Many early issues are close to selling out!
Order online, or by mail include $4 US postage for the first magazine, and $2 for each additional magazine on the same order. See back cover for subscription rates.
RETROFAN #25
RETROFAN #30
RETROFAN #31
RETROFAN #32
RETROFAN #33
The Brady Bunch’s FLORENCE HENDERSON, the UNKNOWN COMIC revealed, Hanna-Barbera’s Top Cat, a Barbie history, RANKIN/BASS’ Frosty the Snowman, Dell Comics’ Monster SuperHeroes, Slushy Drinks, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.
Magic memories of ELIZABETH MONTGOMERY for the 60th Anniversary of TV’s Bewitched! Plus: The ’70s thriller Time After Time (with NICHOLAS MEYER, MALCOLM McDOWELL, and DAVID WARNER), The Alvin Show, BUFFALO BOB SMITH and Howdy Doody, Peter Gunn, Saturday morning’s Run Joe Run and Big John Little John, a trip to Camp Crystal Lake, and more fun, fab features!
Featuring a profile of The Partridge Family’s heartthrob DAVID CASSIDY, THUNDARR THE BARBARIAN, LEGO blocks, Who Created Mighty Mouse?, BUCKAROO BANZAI turns forty, Planet Patrol, Big Little Books, Disco Fever, and more! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER. Edited by MICHAEL EURY.
Meet the Bionic Duo, LEE MAJORS and LINDSAY WAGNER! Plus: Hot Wheels: The Early Years, Fantastic Four cartoons, Modesty Blaise, Hostess snacks, TV Westerns, Movie Icons vs. the Axis Powers, the San Diego Chicken, and more! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER. Edited by MICHAEL EURY.
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Now shipping!
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships June 2024
RETROFAN #26
RETROFAN #27
RETROFAN #28
RETROFAN #29
Meet Mission: Impossible’s LYNDA DAY GEORGE in an exclusive interview! Celebrate Rambo’s 50th birthday with his creator, novelist DAVID MORRELL! Plus: TV faves WKRP IN CINCINNATI and SPACE: 1999, Fleisher’s and Filmation’s SUPERMAN cartoons, commercial jingles, JERRY LEWIS and BOB HOPE comic books, and more fun, fab features! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.
The saga of Saturday morning’s Super Friends, Part One! Plus: A history of MR. T, TV’s AVENGERS (Steed and Mrs. Peel), Daktari’s CHERYL MILLER, Mexican movie monsters, John and Yoko’s nation of Nutopia, ELIZABETH SHEPHERD (the actress who almost played Emma Peel), and more! With ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, MARK VOGER, & MICHAEL EURY.
Interview with Captain Kangaroo BOB KEESHAN, The ROCKFORD FILES, teen monster movies, the Kung Fu and BRUCE LEE crazes, JACK KIRBY’s comedy comics, DON DRYSDALE’s TV drop-ins, outrageous toys, Challenge of the Super Friends, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.
The BRITISH INVASION of the Sixties, interview with Bond Girl TRINA PARKS, The Mighty Hercules, Horror Hostess MOONA LISA, World’s Greatest Super Friends, TV Guide Fall Previews, the Frito Bandito, a Popeye Super Collector, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.
The story behind BOB CLAMPETT’s Beany & Cecil, western queen DALE EVANS, an interview with Mr. Ed’s ALAN YOUNG, Miami Vice, The Sixties’ Wackiest Robots, Muscle-Maker CHARLES ATLAS, Super Powers Team—Galactic Guardians, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
RETROFAN #20
RETROFAN #21
RETROFAN #22
RETROFAN #23
RETROFAN #24
MAD’s maddest artist, SERGIO ARAGONÉS, is profiled! Plus: TV’s Route 66 and an interview with star GEORGE MAHARIS, MOE HOWARD’s final years, singer B. J. THOMAS in one of his final interviews, LONE RANGER cartoons, G.I. JOE, and more! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.
Meet JULIE NEWMAR, the purr-fect Catwoman! Plus: ASTRO BOY, TARZAN Saturday morning cartoons, the true history of PEBBLES CEREAL, TV’s THE UNTOUCHABLES and SEARCH, the MONKEEMOBILE, SOVIET EXPO ’77, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.
Surf’s up as SIXTIES BEACH MOVIES make a RetroFan splash! Plus: He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, ZORRO’s Saturday morning cartoon, TV’s THE WILD, WILD WEST, CARtoons and other drag-mags, VALSPEAK, and more fun, fab features! Like, totally! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.
Meet the stars behind the Black Lagoon: RICOU BROWNING, BEN CHAPMAN, JULIE ADAMS, and LORI NELSON! Plus SHADOW CHASERS, featuring show creator KENNETH JOHNSON. Also: THE BEATLES’ YELLOW SUBMARINE, FLASH GORDON cartoons, TV’s cult classic THE PRISONER and kid’s show ZOOM, COLORFORMS, M&Ms, and more fun, fab features! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.
Interviews with Lost in Space’s ANGELA CARTWRIGHT and BILL MUMY, and Land of the Lost’s WESLEY EURE! Revisit Leave It to Beaver with JERRY MATHERS, TONY DOW, and KEN OSMOND! Plus: UNDERDOG, Rankin-Bass’ stop-motion classic THE LITTLE DRUMMER BOY, Christmas gifts you didn’t want, the CABBAGE PATCH KIDS fad, and more! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99
Go to www.twomorrows.com to preview and order, including RetroFan #1-19!
AMERICAN COMIC BOOK ALTER EGO #189 CHRONICLES: 1945-49 JOHN ROMITA tribute issue! Podcast
Covers the aftermath of WWII, when comics shifted from super-heroes to crime, romance, and western comics, BILL GAINES plotted a new course for EC Comics, and SIEGEL & SHUSTER sued for rights to Superman! By RICHARD ARNDT, KURT MITCHELL, and KEITH DALLAS.
(288-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $49.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-099-1
SHIPS SUMMER 2024
BACK ISSUE #153
ALTER EGO #190
ALTER EGO #191
BACK ISSUE #152
MITCH MAGLIO examines vintage jungle recollections recorded shortly after the comics heroes (Kaänga, Ka-Zar, Sheena, Jazzy One’s passing by JOHN ROMITA Rulah, Jo-Jo/Congo King, Thun’da, Tarzan) JR., JIM STARLIN, STEVE ENGLEHART, with art by LOU FINE, WILL EISNER, BRIAN PULIDO, ROY THOMAS, JAIMIE FRANK FRAZETTA, MATT BAKER, BOB JAMESON, JOHN CIMINO, STEVE POWELL, ALEX SCHOMBURG, and HOUSTON, & NILE SCALA; DAVID others! Plus: the comicbook career of realARMSTRONG’s mini-interview with Romita; life jungle explorers MARTIN AND OSA John Romita’s ten greatest hits; plus FCA, JOHNSON, FCA, Mr. Monster’s Comic Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, & more! Crypt, and more!
#191 is an FCA (FAWCETT COLLECTORS OF AMERICA) issue! Documenting the influence of MAC RABOY’s Captain Marvel Jr. on the life, career, and look of ELVIS PRESLEY during his stellar career, from the 1950s through the 1970s! Plus: Captain Marvel co-creator BILL PARKER’s complete testimony from the DC vs. Fawcett lawsuit, MICHAEL T. GILBERT in Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, and other surprises!
MARVELMANIA ISSUE! SAL BUSCEMA’s Avengers, FABIAN NICIEZA’s Captain America, and KURT BUSIEK and ALEX ROSS’s Marvels turns 30! Plus: Marvelmania International, Marvel Age, Marvel Classics, PAUL KUPPERBERG’s Marvel Novels, and Marvel Value Stamps. Featuring JACK KIRBY, KEVIN MAGUIRE, ROY THOMAS, and more! SAL BUSCEMA cover.
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Aug. 2024
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Dec. 2024
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships June 2024
BACK ISSUE #154
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Oct. 2024
BACK ISSUE #155
BACK ISSUE #156
KIRBY COLLECTOR #91
BIG BABY ISSUE! X-Babies, the last days of Sugar and Spike, FF’s Franklin Richards, Superbaby vs. Luthor, Dennis the Menace Bonus Magazine, Baby Snoots, Marvel and Harvey kid humor comics, & more! With ARTHUR ADAMS, CARY BATES, JOHN BYRNE, CHRIS CLAREMONT, SCOTT LOBDELL, SHELDON MAYER, CURT SWAN, ROY THOMAS, and other grownup creators. Cover by ARTHUR ADAMS.
BRONZE AGE NOT-READY-FORPRIMETIME DC HEROES! Black Canary, Elongated Man, Lilith, Metamorpho, Nubia, Odd Man, Ultraa of Earth-Prime, Vartox, and Jimmy Olsen as Mr. Action! Plus: Jason’s Quest! Featuring MIKE W. BARR, CARY BATES, STEVE DITKO, BOB HANEY, DENNY O’NEIL, MIKE SEKOWSKY, MARK WAID, and more ready-for-primetime talent. Retro cover by NICK CARDY.
THIS ISSUE IS HAUNTED! House of Mystery, House of Secrets, Unexpected, Marvel’s failed horror anthologies, Haunted Tank, Eerie Publications, House II adaptation, Elvira’s House of Mystery, and more wth NEAL ADAMS, MIKE W. BARR, DICK GIORDANO, SAM GLANZMAN, ROBERT KANIGHER, JOE ORLANDO, STERANKO, BERNIE WRIGHTSON, and others. Unused cover by GARCÍA-LÓPEZ & WRIGHTSON.
BRONZE AGE GRAPHIC NOVELS! 1980s GNs from Marvel, DC, and First Comics, Conan GNs, and DC’s Sci-Fi GN series! With BRENT ANDERSON, JOHN BYRNE, HOWARD CHAYKIN, CHRIS CLAREMONT, JOSÉ LUIS GARCÍA-LÓPEZ, JACK KIRBY, DON MCGREGOR, BOB McLEOD, BILL SIENKIEWICZ, JIM STARLIN, ROY THOMAS, BERNIE WRIGHTSON, and more. WRIGHTSON cover.
30th Anniversary issue, with KIRBY’S GREATEST VICTORIES! Jack gets the girl (wife ROZ), early hits Captain America and Boy Commandos, surviving WWII, romance comics, Captain Victory and the direct market, his original art battle with Marvel, and finally winning credit! Plus MARK EVANIER, a colossal gallery of Kirby’s winningest pencil art, a never-reprinted SIMON & KIRBY story, and more!
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships July 2024
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Aug. 2023
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Oct. 2024
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Dec. 2024
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Fall 2024
COMIC BOOK CREATOR #35 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #36 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #37
RETROFAN #34
RETROFAN #35
An in-depth look at the life and career of writer/editor DENNY O’NEIL, and part one of a career-spanning interview with ARNOLD DRAKE, co-creator of The Doom Patrol and Deadman! Plus the story behind Studio Zero, the ’70s collective of JIM STARLIN, FRANK BRUNNER, ALAN WEISS, and others! Warren horror mag writer/ historian JACK BUTTERWORTH, alternative cartoonist TIM HENSLEY, & more!
TOM PALMER retrospective, career-spanning interview, and tributes compiled by GREG BIGA. LEE MARRS chats about assisting on Little Orphan Annie, work for DC’s Plop! and underground Pudge, Girl Blimp! The start of a multi-part look at the life and career of DAN DIDIO, part two of our ARNOLD DRAKE interview, public service comics produced by students at the CENTER FOR CARTOON STUDIES, & more!
STEVE ENGLEHART is spotlighted in a career-spanning interview, former DC Comics’ romance editor BARBARA FRIEDLANDER redeems the late DC editor JACK MILLER, DAN DIDIO discusses going from DC exec to co-publisher, we conclude our 100th birthday celebration for ARNOLD DRAKE, take a look at the 1970s underground comix oddity THE FUNNY PAGES, and more, including HEMBECK!
Take a ride with CHiPs’ ERIK ESTRADA and LARRY WILCOX! Plus: an interview with movie Hercules STEVE REEVES, WeirdOhs cartoonist BILL CAMPBELL, Plastic Man on Saturday mornings, TINY TIM, Remo Williams, the search for a Disney artist, and more! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER. Edited by MICHAEL EURY.
Saturday morning super-hero Space Ghost, plus The Beatles, The Jackson 5ive, and other real rockers in animation! Also: The Addams Family’s JOHN ASTIN, Mighty Isis co-stars JOANNA PANG and BRIAN CUTLER, TV’s The Name of the Game, on the set of Evil Dead II, classic coffee ads, and more! With ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, MARK VOGER & MICHAEL EURY.
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Summer 2024
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Fall 2024
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Winter 2025
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Aug. 2024
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Ships Oct. 2024
New from TwoMorrows!
ALTER EGO #186
ALTER EGO #187
ALTER EGO #188
KIRBY COLLECTOR #89
BRICKJOURNAL #85
Focuses on great early science-fiction author EDMUND HAMILTON, who went on to an illustrious career at DC Comics, writing Superman, Batman, and especially The Legion of Super-Heroes! Learn all about his encounters with RAY BRADBURY, MORT WEISINGER, JULIUS SCHWARTZ, et al—a panoply of titans! Plus FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT in Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, and more!
DOUBLE-SIZE ANNIVERSARY ISSUE! The Marvel side includes mini-interviews with JOHN BUSCEMA, MARIE SEVERIN, JIM MOONEY, and GEORGE TUSKA—plus “STAN LEE’S Dinner with ALAIN RESNAIS” annotated by SEAN HOWE! On the DC side: talks with CARMINE INFANTINO, JOHN BROOME, JULIUS SCHWARTZ, JOE KUBERT, & MURPHY ANDERSON—plus a GARDNER FOX photo-feature, and more!
KIRBY CONSPIRACIES! Darkseid’s Foourth World palace intrigue, the too-many attempted overthrows of Odin, why Stan Lee hated Diablo, Kang contradictions, Simon & Kirby swipes, a never-reprinted S&K story, MARK EVANIER’s WonderCon 2023 Kirby Tribute Panel (with MARV WOLFMAN, PAUL S. LEVINE, and JOHN MORROW), an extensive Kirby pencil art gallery, and more!
LEGO MINIFIGURES! Customized minifigs by fans, designing the Disney minifigures from LEGO House, spotlight on minifig fan artist ROBERT8, and more! Plus, all our regular features: Nerding Out with BRICKNERD, step-by-step “You Can Build It” instructions by CHRISTOPHER DECK, BANTHA BRICKS: Fans of LEGO Star Wars, and Minifigure Customization with JARED K. BURKS!
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Now shipping!
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Now shipping!
(160-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $21.95 (Digital Edition) $9.99 • Ships June 2024
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Now shipping!
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Now shipping!
All characters TM & © their respective owners.
Spotlights ANGELO TORRES, the youngest and last of the fabled EC Comics artists— who went on to a fabulous career as a horror, science-fiction, and humor artist for Timely/Marvel, Warren Publishing, and MAD magazine! It’s a lushly illustrated retrospective of his still-ongoing career— plus FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America), MICHAEL T. GILBERT in Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, and more
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Now shipping!
BACK ISSUE #150
Our oversized 100-PAGE SUPER SPECTACULAR sesquicentennial edition, featuring BATMEN OF THE 1970s! Exploring the work of Bronze Age Batman artists BOB BROWN, DICK GIORDANO, IRV NOVICK, FRANK ROBBINS, WALTER SIMONSON, ALEX TOTH, and BERNIE WRIGHTSON. Plus: revisit FRANK MILLER’s first Batman story! (100-pg. FULL-COLOR magazine) $12.95 (Digital Edition) $5.99 Now shipping!
2024 RATES
SUBSCRIPTION RATES
Print subscribers get the digital edition free!
Alter Ego (Six print issues) Back Issue (Eight print issues) BrickJournal (Six print issues) Comic Book Creator (Four print issues) Jack Kirby Collector (Four print issues) RetroFan (Six print issues)
BACK ISSUE #151
COMIC BOOK CREATOR #33 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #34
DREAMS AND NIGHTMARES! A who’s who of artists of NEIL GAIMAN’s The Sandman plus a GAIMAN interview, Sandman Mystery Theatre’s MATT WAGNER and STEVEN T. SEAGLE, Dr. Strange’s nemesis Nightmare, Marvel’s Sleepwalker, Casper’s horse Nightmare, with SHELLY BOND, BOB BUDIANSKY, STEVE ENGLEHART, ALISA KWITNEY, and others! KELLEY JONES cover.
STEVE GERBER biographical essay and collaborator insights, MARY SKRENES on co-creating Omega the Unknown, helping develop Howard the Duck, VAL MAYERIK cover and interview, ROY THOMAS reveals STAN LEE’s unseen EXCELSIOR! COMICS line, LINDA SUNSHINE (editor of early hardcover super-hero collections), more with MIKE DEODATO, and the concluding segment on FRANK BORTH!
DAN JURGENS talks about Superman, Sun Devils, creating Booster Gold, developing the “Doomsday scenario” with the demise of the Man of Steel, and more! Traverse DON GLUT’s “Glutverse” continuity across Gold Key, Marvel, and DC! Plus RICK ALTERGOTT, we conclude our profiles of MIKE DEODATO, JR. and FRANK BORTH, LINDA SUNSHINE (editor of DC/Marvel hardcover super-hero collections), & more!
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Now shipping!
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Now shipping!
(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 • Now shipping!
Poly mailer, backing board
ECONOMY US
Faster delivery, rigid mailer
PREMIUM US
Non-US orders, rigid mailer
INTERNATIONAL
DIGITAL ONLY
$73 $97 $73 $53 $53 $73
$100 $130 $100 $70 $70 $100
$111 $147 $111 $78 $78 $111
$29 $39 $29 $19 $19 $29
TwoMorrows. The Future of Comics History. TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA
No print issue
Phone: 919-449-0344 E-mail: store@twomorrows.com Web: www.twomorrows.com Don’t miss exclusive sales, limited editions, and new releases! Sign up for our mailing list:
https://groups.io/g/twomorrows
Download our Free Catalog of all our available books and back issues! https://www.twomorrows.com/media/TwoMorrowsCatalog.pdf
PRINTED IN CHINA
BACK ISSUE #149
’80s INDIE HEROES: The American, Aztec Ace, Dynamo Joe, Evangeline, Journey, Megaton Man, Trekker, Whisper, and Zot! Featuring CHUCK DIXON, PHIL FOGLIO, STEVEN GRANT, RICH LARSON, SCOTT McCLOUD, WILLIAM MESSNER-LOEBS, DOUG MOENCH, RON RANDALL, DON SIMPSON, MARK VERHEIDEN, CHRIS WARNER & more superstar creators. Cover by NORM BREYFOGLE!