Time to Shatter the Glass Ceiling?

ZOOMING IN TIME TO SHATTER THE GLASS

CEILING?

What role do Italian women play in today’s domestic and international fashion business? What about female leadership in Italy? Is the gender pay gap discussion still relevant? What influence does the “female touch” have on design? We discussed these questions with four women in the Italian fashion community. A conversation with Ludovica Braglia (sustainable business advisor and author at School of WRÅD), Valeria Caffagni (Head of Business Development EMEA Goldwin Japan), Daniela Holnsteiner (International Sales Director Save the Duck) and Cinzia Macchi (founder and designer LaMilanesa).

Interview: Janaina Engelmann-Brothánek. Illustration: Simona Gala Baronti

It feels like much has happened in Italy in our industry over the last decade: more women in CEO positions, more female designers. Digital entrepreneurship has opened up new opportunities for smart women, just think of Chiara Ferragni. In short, women are no longer merely fashion consumers, but active players both on stage and behind the scenes. Nevertheless, Italy remains the country with the highest gender pay gap in Europe, according to the Global Gender Gap Report 2021. The lockdowns have resulted in a step backwards for many women: housework and care duties are often reassigned to women in what is now called “smart working” environments. What is needed to ensure Italian women can finally assert their claim of leadership?

On the one hand, studies indicate that Italy ranks last in Europe in terms of gender equality – on the other hand, the prevailing personal impression is that much has been achieved and there is still more to come. What is your assessment?

Daniela Holnsteiner, International Sales Director of Save The Duck: I am originally from Germany and grew up with a mentality that makes no distinction between men and women. My mother, who was an entrepreneur herself, made one thing very clear to me when I was still a child: “Daniela, one thing is incredibly important. Make sure you are never dependent on a man.” When I arrived in Italy 18 years ago and started my first job here, it was something of a culture shock. I was one of a few women who was trusted with more senior positions. I used to sense that my origin might have been a factor. It seemed as if I, as a German, was given more credit than my female Italian counterparts. The situation is, of course, totally different today. Much has changed in the fashion industry. As a BCorp company, we attach great importance to equality and our statistics reflect this commitment. Save The Duck boasts 80% female staff, especially in important positions such as our CMO, our Sustainability Manager, or mine.

Valeria Caffagni, Head of Business Development EMEA of Goldwin Japan and founder of Blue Hills Studio: It is undeniable that much has changed in recent years. The “Legge n. 120/2011” and its amendments, for example, stipulate that 30% of employees in both listed and state-owned companies must be female. In addition, Italy has made great strides in terms of equality with the new “Legge Gribaudo” bill, which was unanimously adopted in parliament on the 13th of October 2021. The question is, however, whether these stipulations are actually taken seriously by companies or merely used for cosmetic purposes? We are all aware that a woman always presents a company with the “risk” of potential motherhood. The issue of conceiving children always comes up, even in job interviews. That is not only illegal, but also anachronistic. The discussion should revolve around quality instead of quantity of work. If a woman with a family can spend less time in the office and yet still deliver high-quality input, why would she not deserve the same pay and recognition as her male colleagues? At the end of the day, it is the performance that counts, not the hours spent in front of the PC.

Cinzia Macchi, founder and designer of LaMilanesa: I am glad that Valeria raised the issue of motherhood, because despite being anachronistic, it is still very much part of our mentality. I have witnessed young female applicants volunteer the information that they are in committed relationships and wish to have children. I never asked them and never would, but they felt it was important to “warn” me. If motherhood was actually a problem, I would not have been able to base my business on women. At LaMilanesa, we are all women. Even our sales director, the only man, is actually a “signorina”. That is how he defines himself. (laughs) But joking aside, my experiences in the professional world were not all that comfortable either. I started off outside the fashion world. Before I founded LaMilanesa, I worked in the field of advanced training, which is a mostly male-dominated terrain. I was overlooked at times. That hurt. I feel more at home in fashion, where I see women play a different role. Let’s face it, the whole fashion industry is based on women: from production to wardrobe. It is absurd that we are even still discussing motherhood and gender pay gaps, especially as fashion would not exist without us.

How about you, Ludovica? How do you and your generation (Z) view the gender discussion? Could you share your experience?

Ludovica Braglia, sustainable business advisor and author at School of WRÅD: I agree wholeheartedly, especially with the fact one should focus on the quality of work, performance, and skills of the person in question, rather than on their inherent attributes or background. This is very important to our generation, and we are willing to fight tooth and nail for it. I still encountered difficulties at first, not only as a woman in general, but even more so as a young woman. I was born and raised in the industry. Thanks to my father and his company (Brama Group), I genuinely know many people from this world. When I decided to start my own business, I was forced to realise that Italy not only has a gender gap, but also a generation gap. Everything ran smoothly as long as I operated under my father’s wing, as his daughter. But when I started my own business as an independent young woman and dedicated myself to environmental protection in the fashion industry, it was not easy to be taken seriously. The issue of sustainability is a rather difficult one in itself, because any kind of effort is still regarded as voluntary. We are “kind people” striving to save the oceans, so we should do it for free. In other words, I struggle on a daily basis to be accepted by the older generation – not only as a woman and a young person, but also to be paid for my work. We, as Generation Z, have internalised these issues, but we constantly have to fight against older leadership structures.

Leadership is an excellent cue. What about female leadership?

Daniela Holnsteiner: There are definitely major differences between female and male leadership, but I would not go so far as to say that one is better than the other. Sure, us women tend to be more sensitive to some issues, perhaps we invest more in team building and harmony, but we are not all the same. I have encountered great male leaders in my career. Now, with Nicolas Bargi, I am blessed to be working with an example of incredible leadership that inspires me. Equally, I have met women in high positions who constantly engaged in power struggles. It all depends on the personality of the leaders.

Cinzia Macchi: I have encountered men who have taught me much, as well as women who offered me no support at all. It is not a question of gender, but of people. Today, we have to ensure equal opportunities for all.

Valeria Caffagni: The issue is intelligence and sensitivity, rather than feminine or masculine. Women may have greater empathy and understanding when it comes to the strict separation of work and private life, but I would not go so far as to say that female leadership is superior. Today, it is more about creating structures and teams that collaborate well, support each other, and strive to achieve a common goal. Nevertheless, it ultimately remains a question of mentality. I am currently working with a Japanese company, and in Japan you tend to see even fewer women in C-level positions than in Italy, but the situation there is definitely evolving and improving. However, I believe that men should also be invited to the table to address such a complex issue. It is a wonderful opportunity to discuss this with such inspiring women, but the issue will only be internalised if the other side is also offered the opportunity to get involved and an exchange takes place. It should not be a struggle.

Ludovica Braglia: I believe that the differences between women and men should be considered as added value. As in nature, diversity can create wonderful ecosystems – feminine and masculine do not have to be polar opposites. I guess my question is whether women actually enjoy the same opportunities as men to show their abilities? Naturally, this does not only apply to women, but also to minorities, as Cinzia suggested earlier.

In my opinion, opening up equal opportunities for women and men in Italy should start with fundamental improvements to the country’s cultural DNA. In other words, equality should already be addressed and established in schools and institutions. Do you agree?

Ludovica Braglia: I am convinced that we still have a long way to go in Italy. We need a new balance. However, we need to take it one step at a time, otherwise our progress will not be sustainable. It goes without saying that there should be no differences between girls and boys in schools. Children should grow up knowing that they are not the same, but that they enjoy equal rights.

Cinzia Macchi: Exactly, I find this aspect extremely important. You should learn from an early age that we are all equal, there is no such thing as the stronger sex. That is why I am involved in an aid organisation here in Milan that visits schools in hot spots and educates, which also includes explaining equal rights. To put it bluntly, not all children know that a woman is not confined to the kitchen and needs to follow men’s orders.

Daniela Holnsteiner: Schools can make a big difference, but that is not enough. We, as the new generation of parents, have to advocate change and serve as role models for our children. I frequently draw comparisons between Germany and Italy, and unfortunately, I still observe huge differences. It was even more noticeable during the lockdown. In my Italian circle of friends, far more mothers were forced to stay at home with the children than in my German circle of acquaintances. There, the division of working time and childcare between the parents was mostly fair.

Valeria Caffagni: Yes, the statistics speak volumes. In 2020, 42,000 parents (of children between 0 and 3 years old) lost their jobs in Italy, 77% of them are women (source: La Stampa). We remain at the bottom of the World Economic Forum's Global Gender Gap Report, 63rd out of 156, making us one of the lowest ranking European countries.

Ludovica Braglia: This is exactly what we are attempting to change with the School of WRÅD. We strive to provide all young people with equal learning opportunities, to put everyone on an equal footing, and to ensure that everyone starts from the same baseline. The School of WRÅD is the first digital platform in Italy that is accessible to everyone. You can download courses on sustainable fashion in several languages, including Farsi and Hindi. This is our idea of how to democratise education, eliminating the distinction of whether it is aimed at men or women, the poor or the rich.

Talking about sustainability, it is interesting to see that many pioneers on an international level are women. Why is that so?

Ludovica Braglia: Sustainability stems from empathy, from the desire to respect and listen to the other. By that I mean other people, nature, and so on. Yes, it may well be a topic that is internalised and advanced more by women. Men usually grew up with the idea of doing

business. Business equals profit, and profit alone, simply is not sustainable. This is, however, a misconception: sustainability is no longer a mere ideology – fair profit is possible.

Cinzia Macchi: LaMilanesa is the perfect example of how female sustainability and fairness work – everything we do is sustainable, made by women for women. It requires hard work, and we are immensely proud of what we are doing. Last year, we teamed up with Banca Intesa, Caritas, and the Vatican to launch the “Fabbricatrici di Sogni” project. We train women for jobs in the fashion industry. They learn to sew, tailor, and much more, thereby laying the foundation for a long-term income of their own. The aim of the initiative is to support women from socially disadvantaged backgrounds on their way to financial independence.

Daniela Holnsteiner: At Save The Duck, we have spent years analysing how the topic of sustainability is accepted, internalised, and implemented by women and men, and have discovered that it is not only an issue of gender, but also of age. From around the age of 35, sustainability is primarily a female topic. Women want to know how, where, and by whom a product is made, while men are less interested in such aspects. Under the age of 35, on the other hand, fairness and ecology are universally important concerns perceived as equally relevant by both genders. The younger generations are far more aware of environmental protection.

Do independent women design different fashion? Do we need more male and female designers, especially in Italian fashion, who design for a more modern image of women?

Valeria Caffagni: Women have always been in the majority in the field of design and are now occupying increasingly visible positions, even if it remains difficult to see women in leading creative positions. There are female creative directors who have made a real difference and introduced new approaches – consider Matia Grazia Chiuri, the first female creative director of Dior and thus the first ever Italian woman to head a French house. She introduced “sportiness” to the women’s collections, as well as political and feminist visions. We have to acknowledge that today’s fashion is a highly political territory and touches sensitive topics, which are primarily raised by new generations. Overall, just think of the body positivity movement: the image of women is no longer limited to that of the 1990s and 2000s Victoria’s Secret approach, which has recently undergone a very strong and absolutely necessary paradigm and image shift, in line with a new philosophy of inclusivity and diversity under the pressure of the scandals that have emerged. Fashion in general has become more women-friendly, the cuts are wider and more comfortable to wear. But here, too, one should avoid generalisations. The collections are still created in line with the style of the respective brands and fashion houses, regardless of the gender of the designer – if it even still makes sense to talk about genders. Consider how much the archetypical Gucci woman and man have changed at the hands of Alessandro Michele.

Cinzia Macchi: Yes, I also observe much more lightness and freedom in the collections. Today’s woman is free from predetermined norms, that is certain. That also explains the success of gender fluid or unisex collections.

Daniela Holnsteiner: Yes, allow me to briefly return to the topics of leadership and freedom. Take fashion in politics, for example. In the past, female politicians had to dress as masculine as possible in order to be taken seriously, like Angela Merkel. Today, designers aim to dress the next chancellor or first lady as feminine as possible to convey power. I agree with Valeria that it is not about a feminine or masculine touch. The more important aspects are sensitivity and the ability to foresee the evolution of women, to implement it accordingly in the collections.

Last question: What do we wish for the next generation of women hoping to gain a foothold in our industry?

Cinzia Macchi: The upcoming female generation should be free and be themselves without having to make major compromises. I hope this generation can thrive and has the courage to do so.

Ludovica Braglia: I think that the problem we are discussing is not limited to the fashion industry. On the contrary, I believe that we are actually working in a very female-friendly industry, not least because our sense of aesthetics is irreplaceable. Nevertheless, it is still important to demand respect, be unafraid to speak our minds, and address issues that do not sit right. We need to make our voices heard, no matter what the industry.

Valeria Caffagni: I hope that a talented young woman like Ludovica, who has such energy and passion, will find unlimited opportunities to prove her skills. No young woman should have to overcome barriers that are unrelated to her abilities. Their careers should be defined by challenges that are just that – challenges that allow them to grow, not obstacles placed in their path because they are women.

Daniela Holnsteiner: It is very simple. I hope that the forthcoming female generation will no longer have to engage in this discussion.