Alter Ego #104 by TwoMorrows Publishing

Roy Thomas Presents The World ’s Greatest Comics Fanzine!

Celebrating 50 YEARS since LEE & KIRBY’S

FANTASTIC FOUR #1! ’Nuff Said?

7.95

In In the the USA USA

No.104 August 2011

STAN LEE AND OTHERS REVEAL THE SECRET ORIGINS OF MARVEL!

RARE JACK KIRBY ART AND INFO!

I PREFER THE INTERVIEW WITH AL SULMAN-"PERSONAL ASSOCIATE OF STAN LEE"!

82658 27763

MAKE MINE MARVEL!

Edited by ROY THOMAS The greatest ‘zine of the 1960s is back, ALL-NEW, and focusing on GOLDEN AND SILVER AGE comics and creators with ARTICLES, INTERVIEWS, UNSEEN ART, P.C. Hamerlinck’s FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America, featuring the archives of C.C. BECK and recollections by Fawcett artist MARCUS SWAYZE), Michael T. Gilbert’s MR. MONSTER, and more!

2011 EISNER AWARD Nominee Best Comics-Related Journalism

Other issues available, & an ULTIMATE BUNDLE with all issues at HALF-PRICE!

ALTER EGO #94

ALTER EGO #95

“Earth-Two Companion, Part II!” More on the 1963- 1985 series that changed comics forever! The Huntress, Power Girl, Dr. Fate, Freedom Fighters, and more, with art by ADAMS, APARO, AYERS, BUCKLER, GIFFEN, INFANTINO, KANE, NOVICK, SCHAFFENBERGER, SIMONSON, STATON, SWAN, TUSKA, our GEORGE KASHDAN interview Part 2, FCA, and more! STATON & GIORDANO cover!

Marvel’s NOT BRAND ECHH madcap parody mag from 1967-69, examined with rare art & artifacts by ANDRU, COLAN, BUSCEMA, DRAKE, EVERETT, FRIEDRICH, KIRBY, LEE, JOHN and MARIE SEVERIN, SPRINGER, SUTTON, THOMAS, TRIMPE, and more, GEORGE KASHDAN interview conclusion, FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT and MR. MONSTER, and more! Cover by MARIE SEVERIN!

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #99

ALTER EGO: CENTENNIAL (AE #100)

GEORGE TUSKA showcase issue on his career at Lev Gleason, Marvel, and in comics strips through the early 1970s—CRIME DOES NOT PAY, BUCK ROGERS, IRON MAN, AVENGERS, TEEN TITANS, HERO FOR HIRE, and more! PLUS: JIM AMASH’s interview with Golden Age Fiction House artist BILL BOSSERT, MICHAEL T. GILBERT in MR. MONSTER’S COMIC CRYPT, FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America), and more! (84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital edition) $2.95

DIEDGITIIOTANSL BL AVAILA

ALTER EGO #91

ALTER EGO #92

ALTER EGO #93

FAWCETT FESTIVAL! Big FCA section with Golden Age artists MARC SWAYZE & EMILIO SQUEGLIO, and interviews with the FAWCETT FAMILY! Plus Part II of “The MAD Four-Color Wannabes of the 1950s,” more on DR. LAURETTA BENDER and the teenage creations of STEVE GERBER, artist JACK KATZ spills Golden Age secrets to JIM AMASH, and more! New cover by ORDWAY and SQUEGLIO!

SWORD-AND-SORCERY, PART 3! DC’s Sword of Sorcery by O’NEIL, CHAYKIN, & SIMONSON and Claw by MICHELINIE & CHAN, Hercules by GLANZMAN, Dagar by GLUT & SANTOS, Marvel S&S art by BUSCEMA, KANE, KAYANAN, WRIGHTSON, et al., and JACK KATZ on his classic First Kingdom! Plus FCA, MR. MONSTER, STEVE GERBER’s fan-creations (part 3), and more! Cover by RAFAEL KAYANAN!

(NOW WITH 16 COLOR PAGES!) “EarthTwo—1961 to 1985!” with rare art by INFANTINO, GIL KANE, ANDERSON, DELBO, ANDRU, BUCKLER, APARO, GRANDENETTI, and DILLIN, interview with Golden/Silver Age DC editor GEORGE KASHDAN, plus MICHAEL T. GILBERT and MR. MONSTER, STEVE GERBER, FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America), and a new cover by INFANTINO and AMASH!

(100-page magazine) $6.95 (Digital edition) $2.95

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #96

Focus on Archie’s 1960s MIGHTY CRUSADERS, with vintage art and artifacts by JERRY SIEGEL, PAUL REINMAN, SIMON & KIRBY, JOHN ROSENBERGER, tributes to the Crusaders by BOB FUJITANE, GEORGE TUSKA, BOB LAYTON, and others! Plus an interview with MELL LAZARUS, FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT and MR. MONSTER, and more! Cover by MIKE MACHLAN! (84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #101

ALTER EGO #97

ALTER EGO #98

The non-EC Horror Comics of the 1950s! From Menace and House of Mystery to The Thing!, we present vintage art and artifacts by EVERETT, BRIEFER, DITKO, MANEELY, COLAN , MESKIN, MOLDOFF, HEATH, POWELL, COLE, SIMON & KIRBY, FUJITANI, and others, plus FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT and MR. MONSTER, and more, behind a creepy, eerie cover by BILL EVERETT!

Spotlight on Superman’s first editor WHITNEY ELLSWORTH, longtime Kryptoeditor MORT WEISINGER remembered by his daughter, an interview with Superman writer ALVIN SCHWARTZ, art by JOE SHUSTER, WAYNE BORING, CURT SWAN, AL PLASTINO, and NEAL ADAMS, plus MR. MONSTER, FCA (FAWCETT COLLECTORS OF AMERICA), and a new cover by JERRY ORDWAY!

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital edition) $2.95

ALTER EGO #102

ALTER EGO #103

A/E celebrates 100 issues, and 50 years, of ALTER EGO magazine in a double-size BOOK! ROY THOMAS interviewed by JIM AMASH about ALL-STAR SQUADRON, INFINITY, INC., ARAK, other DC work, and more! Art by PÉREZ, McFARLANE, BUCKLER, ORDWAY, MACHLAN, GIL KANE, COLAN, GIORDANO, and more, plus Mr. Monster, FCA, BUCKLER/ORDWAY cover!

Fox Comics of the 1940s with art by BAKER, FINE, SIMON, KIRBY, TUSKA, FLETCHER HANKS, ALEX BLUM, and others! “Superman vs. Wonder Man” starring EISNER, IGER, MAYER, SIEGEL, and DONENFELD! Part I of an interview with JACK MENDELSOHN, plus FCA, Comic Fandom Archive, MR. MONSTER’S COMIC CRYPT, and new cover by SpiderMan artist DAVE WILLIAMS!

Spotlight on Green Lantern creators MART NODELL and BILL FINGER in the 1940s, and JOHN BROOME, GIL KANE, and JULIUS SCHWARTZ in 1959! Rare GL artwork by INFANTINO, REINMAN, HASEN, NEAL ADAMS, and others! Plus JACK MENDELSOHN Part II, FCA, MR. MONSTER’S COMIC CRYPT, and new cover by GIL KANE & TERRY AUSTIN, and MART NODELL!

The early career of comics writer STEVE ENGLEHART: Defenders, Captain America, Master of Kung Fu, The Beast, Mantis, and more, with rare art and artifacts by SAL BUSCEMA, STARLIN, SUTTON, HECK, BROWN, and others. Plus, JIM AMASH interviews early artist GEORGE MANDEL (Captain Midnight, The Woman in Red, Blue Bolt, Black Marvel, etc.), FCA, MR. MONSTER’S COMIC CRYPT, and more!

(160-page trade paperback with COLOR) $19.95 US • (Digital edition) $5.95

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital edition) $2.95

Vol. 3, No. 104 / August 2011 Editor Roy Thomas

Associate Editors Bill Schelly Jim Amash

Design & Layout Jon B. Cooke

Consulting Editor John Morrow

FCA Editor P.C. Hamerlinck

Comic Crypt Editor Michael T. Gilbert

Editorial Honor Roll Jerry G. Bails (founder) Ronn Foss, Biljo White Mike Friedrich

NOW WITH 16 PAG ES OF COLOR!

Proofreader Rob Smentek

Cover Artists Ron Frenz (pencils) [after Jack Kirby] & Joe Sinnott (inks)

Cover Colorist Tom Ziuko

With Special Thanks to: Roy Ald Heidi Amash Ger Apeldoorn Dick Ayers Bob Bailey Todd Bates Steve Beck Blake Bell John Benson Al Bigley Almeida Bira Dominic Bongo Jerry K. Boyd Frank Brunner Mike Burkey James H. Burns John Caputo Michael Catron Shaun Clancy Paty Cockrum Betty Dobson Jim Engel Jackie Estrada J. Fairfax Shane Foley Ron Fontes Joe Frank Jenna Land Free Ron Frenz Mike Friedrich Janet Gilbert Leigh Gilbert Golden Age Comic Book Stories David “Hambone” Hamilton Jennifer Hamerlinck Heritage Comics Shayna Ian Sharon Karibian Gene Kehoe

Jack & Roz Kirby Estate Henry Kujawa Jim Kuzee R. Gary Land Stan Lee Len Leone Johnny Lowe Jim Ludwig Bruce Mason Brian K. Morris Sarah Morrow Mark Muller Will Murray Barry Pearl John G. Pierce Mike Ploog Warren Reece Donald A. Rex Conor Risch John Romita Steven Rowe Steve Rude Joan Schenkar Joe Sinnott Anthony Snyder Jim Starlin Al Sulman Desha Swayze Marc Swayze Jeff Taylor Greg Theakston Dann Thomas Jim Vadeboncoeur, Jr. Dr. Michael J. Vassallo Amy Wideman Lynn Woolley Donald Woolfolk Vern Yu Michael Zeno

Contents Writer/Editorial: Stan The Man—Meet Stan The Man! . . . . . . 2 Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 Two astonishing 2005 recording sessions with the man who spearheaded Marvel Comics.

“I Had A Liking For The Comic Magazine Business” . . . . . . 46 A catch-as-catch-can conversation with Al Sulman, Golden Age scripter and Timely editor.

Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt! — Blood, Sweat, And Tears… And Then Some . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 61 Michael T. Gilbert spotlights Mike Friedrich’s hair-raising account of his first pro comics sale.

re: [correspondence, comments, & corrections] . . . . . . . . . 68 FCA [Fawcett Collectors Of America] #163 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .73 P.C. Hamerlinck presents the memories of two Fawcett stalwarts: Marc Swayze & Roy Ald. On Our Cover: Our heartfelt thanks to Ron Frenz for re-rendering the original Jack Kirby cover of 1961’s Fantastic Four #1, as it might have looked if the quartet had been sporting the costumes they didn’t actually don until the third issue—while, to show how it could’ve looked if it had been inked by Joe Sinnott, who is all but universally acclaimed as the best F.F. inker ever, we just had to talk Joltin’ Joe himself into doing it! We truly appreciate their Herculean effort—and Joe, in particular, is still bothered by that detached shoulder rotor muscle of a couple of years ago. [Fantastic Four TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] Above: While a number of fine comics artists have drawn The Silver Surfer over the years, both in a mag of his own and elsewhere, the gleaming guardian of the spaceways will forever be identified with Jack Kirby, who came up with the hero for Fantastic Four #48 (March 1966) just so worlds-gulping Galactus would have someone to talk to! This dynamic drawing, penciled and possibly inked by Kirby, was utilized as the cover figure on the program book of Phil Seuling’s 1975 New York Comic Art Convention. Thanks to John Benson. [Silver Surfer TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Alter EgoTM is published 8 times a year by TwoMorrows, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Roy Thomas, Editor. John Morrow, Publisher. Alter Ego Editorial Offices: 32 Bluebird Trail, St. Matthews, SC 29135, USA. Fax: (803) 826-6501; e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Eight-issue subscriptions: $60 US, $85 Canada, $107 elsewhere. All characters are © their respective companies. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter © Roy Thomas. Alter Ego is a TM of Roy & Dann Thomas. FCA is a TM of P.C. Hamerlinck. Printed in Canada. ISSN: 1932-6890 FIRST PRINTING.

writer/editorial

Stan The Man–Meet Stan The Man! I

Sure, Stan Lee gave himself the title “Stan (The Man)”—the first time may have been in Fantastic Four #40 (July 1965)—but on that same splash page he spread around the glory by coining another deathless phrase: “Jack (King) Kirby.”

n my life, I’ve had two heroes called “Stan the Man.”

The first—the one for whom the term was originally minted by fans and sports reporters—was St. Louis Cardinals baseball star Stan Musial, who this past February received the Presidential Medal of Freedom at the age of ninety.

Between 1941-72, except for four years in the U.S. Army during World War II, he was Timely/Atlas/Marvel’s editorial and art director When I was growing up in small-town Missouri and its most important writer—especially between in the 1940s and ’50s, Musial’s fame and grace and 1961-65, when he co-created The Fantastic Four, presence coming over the radio were as much a The Incredible Hulk, Spider-Man, Thor, Iron Stan “The Man” Musial. You’ll meet the other part of my summers as the swimming pool and Man, Dr. Strange, The X-Men, The Avengers, “Stan the Man” on the next 43 pages. comic books and Captain Midnight. It didn’t hurt Daredevil, and The Silver Surfer. He left the any that Musial’s birthday was Nov. 21, 1920— editorial position to become Marvel’s publisher; today, as “publisher exactly twenty years plus one day prior to my own. emeritus,” he still devotes part of a busy schedule to Marvel, serving as a consultant on films, writing the occasional graphic novel, and scripting Between 1941-63 he played 22 seasons of Major League ball, all of it (since 1977) the daily-and-Sunday Spider-Man, the only successful for St. Louis—missing only 1945, when he served in the U.S. Navy, adventure comic strip launched in decades. because in those days “hero” meant something more than just performing in a sports arena. He was not only one of the greatest sluggers in history Stan Lee’s statistics aren’t quite as readily available as Stan Musial’s— (with 3630 hits, ranking #4 all-time), but was easily the most consistent— but if comics had All-Star games and MVP awards, Stan would’ve won a with 1815 hits in home games, and 1815 on the road. He also connected goodly number of them over the years. In 1994 he and Steve Ditko were for 475 home runs, and was voted the National League’s Most Valuable inducted together into the Eisner Hall of Fame, tied as the “lucky 13th” Player three times. He was selected for the All-Star Game for 24 consecinductees (and I don’t think Stan minded at all that Jack Kirby was one of utive years, a record tied only by fellow legend Say-Hey Willie Mays. the first three voted in). When Stan Musial laid down his bat and glove in ’63, he held or Yes, Stan Lee has his faults, as don’t we all? Even Stan Musial once shared 29 National League records, 17 Major League records, and nine ended a longstanding friendship over business dealings, and I for one All-Star game records. Is it any surprise that he was voted into the don’t care much for the harmonica no matter who’s playing it. But both Baseball Hall of Fame in 1969, the first year he was eligible? Stans deserve the title: “The Man.” And this issue we remind you why. The second “Stan the Man” hero of mine is Stan Lee.

Bestest, P.S.: I'm curious—how many of A/E's readers purchased F.F. #1 hot off the newsstand in summer of ’61 as I did? If so, drop a line!

COMING IN OCTOBER

105

TALES FROM THE CODE! The Coming Of The Comics Code—And The Cataclysmic Changes It Wrought! • Spectacular brand-new Spider-Man cover by JOSH MEDORS (30 Days of Night, Moon Knight)—an homage to the art of STEVE DITKO! • “Tales from the Code!” RICHARD ARNDT reveals how the Comics Code Authority changed comics (literally!) for decades to come! Plus “BEFORE” & “AFTER” art & artifacts by the likes of SIMON & KIRBY • DITKO • BUSCEMA • STERANKO • KANE • COLE • SINNOTT • KRIGSTEIN • ORLANDO • WILLIAMSON • GLANZMAN • GOULD • O’NEILL • HEATH • WINDSOR-SMITH • WOLFMAN • POWELL • O’NEIL • ROMITA & many more! • CAL MASSEY—a no-holds-barred interview with the dynamic 1950s Timely Comics artist, conducted by JIM AMASH! • FCA with more of MARC SWAYZE & ROY ALD • MICHAEL T. GILBERT’s Comic Crypt—& Inc. rs, racte Marvel Cha Spider-Man TM & ©2011 MORE!! Edited by ROY THOMAS • SUBSCRIBE NOW! Eight issues in the US: $60 Standard, $80 First Class • (Canada: $85, Elsewhere: $107 Surface, $155 Airmail). • NEW LOWER RATES FOR INTERNATIONAL CUSTOMERS! SAVE $4 PER ISSUE!

TwoMorrows. Celebrating The Art & History Of Comics. TwoMorrows • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA • 919-449-0344 • FAX: 919-449-0327 • E-mail: twomorrow@aol.com • www.twomorrows.com

STAN LEE’s Amazing Marvel Interview! Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics Additional Text by Roy Thomas • Interview Transcribed by Brian K. Morris

A/E

and subject. The project sounded like a fascinating experiment, and I was overjoyed to be involved.

EDITOR’S INTRODUCTION: To celebrate the 50th anniversary of The Fantastic Four #1, which went on sale circa July/August of 1961 and thereby set in motion what Stan Lee would later tout as “The Marvel Age of Comics,” I’m honored to be able to present in print for the first time ever what is probably the longest interview ever given by Stan, the writer/editor who started it all. So how did I stumble upon this treasure trove? Sometime in early 2005 I received a phone call from a young man named Conor Risch, an editor for a Seattle-area editorial book-packaging company with the offbeat, uncapitalized, and exclamation-pointed name of becker&mayer! They were about to put together a book centered around my old boss and mentor Stan Lee (with whom I was still working, actually, on the daily-andSunday Spider-Man newspaper comic strip). It was to be titled Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Universe, and would be issued by Sterling Publishing Co., Inc.

Becker&mayer!’s personnel had sold Sterling on a concept for an unusual type of book. It would elaborate upon a number of key moments in Stan’s career as writer and editor at Marvel. (But—50 moments? 100? The precise number was still up in the air.) It would combine straight text—which Stan had kindly suggested I might be the right person to provide—with accompanying audio tracks to be narrated by Stan himself. Interspersed throughout the 200-page tome would be a series of so-called illustrated “icons.” Each time the reader came to one of these icons at a particular spot in the text, he needed only to press the “PLAY” button on the digital audio player (a 2½" x 11" x ¾" mostly-plastic device physically attached to the book), and he/she would hear Stan’s voice, relating a sentence or three that would augment the information on that particular page

Digital Doings Photo taken on Sept. 5, 2005, at the conclusion of the second recording session held for the book pictured below. From left to right: editor/questioner Jenna Land Free… Marvel fountainhead Stan Lee… longtime Marvel writer & editor Roy Thomas… and audio session director Leigh Gilbert. With thanks to Jenna.

Almost immediately, however, Conor Risch left becker&mayer!, and I was handed over into the consummate care of his colleague Jenna Land Free, who made all subsequent editorial and production decisions on the book (with feedback from her b&m bosses and Sterling, of course). At some point she and I settled on 50 as being the maximum number of “moments” we could handle well in 200 pages, so we began culling an earlier list of around 100 down to half that number. (The finished book would appear in 2006, with image research for becker&mayer! credited to Shayna Ian, design to Todd Bates, audio sound editing—an unusual credit in a book—to Kate Hall, and custom audio engineering—ditto—to Steve Beck. My main contacts via phone and e-mail in 2005, while I wrote the text, were Jenna, Shayna, and Todd.) But the contents of the book weren’t all handled “long distance.”

In August, with the writing well under way but with the list not yet totally pared down to the “final 50,” Jenna phoned to ask if I could fly from South Carolina to Los Angeles (where Stan has lived for the past three decades) to take part in the first of probably two recording sessions to be done with Stan for the book. Nice as it would be to see Stan again, I was less than eager to hop a plane for an overnight stay in L.A. But Jenna felt I might be useful in jogging Stan’s memory concerning some bit of Marvel arcana about which, due to my long-standing interest in comics history, I might remember more than he did—and frankly, I figured she was probably right. So, “California, here I come!” The recording studio, nestled somewhere in the urban sprawl that is the Los Angeles Basin, was a tidy little building which contained a

Icon Do It! The first of the book’s “icons,” in a cartouche flanked by images of Simon & Kirby’s cover for Captain America Comics #3 (May 1941) and of the Kirby-penciled illo that accompanied Stan’s text story in #3, the latter’s first published comics work. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

small sound booth set off by a glass window for the recordee, while the rest of us would sit or stand in a larger room, 10 to 20 feet from where Stan would sit and answer questions relayed to him electronically. In addition to a recording engineer (the “Steve Beck” credited in the book?), Jenna had hired an “audio session director” named Leigh Gilbert to advise her on various vocal aspects of the sessions. The three of them would be physically closest to Stan (though not that close), while I was free to sit or stand a bit behind them and would be called on only if and when necessary. Which was fine by me. In fact, I prayed that I would prove so superfluous to the proceedings that Jenna would feel no need to have me present for the second session, if one were needed. The Q&A session was designed so that Stan could state—and re-state, if necessary, to achieve just the wording mutually desired—his answers to questions posed by Jenna (which had been partly worked out with Yours Truly). From a response that might have lasted just a few seconds or a couple of minutes, Jenna and her crew would later excerpt the “sound bite” they felt would work best at that point in the book. We were all aware from the start that, out of several hours of recording, only a half-hour to 45 minutes could be utilized by the “audio-book.” So some points we covered would definitely not make the cut, and most would do so only in truncated form. Jenna, of course, wasn’t out to elicit startling new revelations from Stan, let alone engage in any “gotcha” moments; what she, b&m, and Sterling were after was concise summaries of events and motivations, mixed with colorful anecdotes, all of which would make the reader/listener feel that Stan was filling him/her in personally, virtually face-to-face, on the colorful

history of Marvel Comics. Stan would basically be asked, once again, some of questions he’d answered most often… plus, hopefully, a few that were new to him. Under Jenna’s gentle prodding, there were a few disclosures which even I didn’t recall have heard from Stan before. There would also be, as it turned out, a fair amount of back-and-forth banter between Jenna and Stan—with my humble self becoming involved from time to time (through exchanges with Jenna, or occasionally directly with Stan) in order to clarify a question or to suggest a pertinent fact that Stan might consider adding in a rephrasing of his answer. With such an exhausting pace and a full schedule, it’s not surprising that occasionally Stan misremembered a fact or two—who wouldn’t?—but in the end his answers are all his own, made after he had both searched his own memory and received such verbal reminders as Jenna or I could give him, along with his occasionally perusing pages from the original comics. All in all, it was a formidable, once-in-a-lifetime feat, and I’m proud to have been on hand to help, even a little bit. At any rate: Stan arrived on his own, having driven to the studio, looking as dapper and cheerful as ever. We exchanged a few pleasantries, though Stan was eager from the outset to find out how long the session would last. Unfortunately, Jenna could only tell him: “An hour or so.” Stan, ever the trooper, took his place on the chair in the sound booth before a microphone, while Jenna, Leigh, and the recording engineer took their stations in the outer room—and I sat and/or paced behind them. Most of the time, from my angle, I couldn’t even see Stan, though we could all hear his electronically-amplified voice. He was wearing headphones in order to hear Jenna’s questions.

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

And so, after a few sound checks, it began. Jenna’s specific questions (and my own verbal suggestions) were not recorded—only Stan’s answers were— but the former are generally easy to reconstruct from a combination of memory and simple deduction….

about his schoolwork; he doesn’t have enough money—Martin said, “Stan, don’t you realize what a super-hero is? They don’t have those kinds of problems.” So, you could see he wasn’t totally thrilled with the notion of “Spider-Man.”

SESSION I (August 2005)

Next: Since Peter Parker was originally a high school student, why is he called “Spider-Man” and not “Spider-Boy”?

First, Jenna asks Stan a double question about Spider-Man’s powers, and about working with artist/co-creator Steve Ditko.

You know, it’s very interesting why I called him Spider-Man instead of SpiderBoy. It’s something I’ve thought about quite a lot. I think probably because Superman was Superman, and somehow Spider-Boy would’ve sounded too immature. Too… not fully developed. Not enough of a super-hero. And I wanted our super-hero to be on a par with any other competing super-hero. So I felt I’ve gotta call him Spider-Man. Also, I had the idea that, if he succeeded in subsequent issues and in subsequent years, we would age him. And at some point he would be a man. And when he became an adult male, it would be silly to keep calling him SpiderBoy. So I guess I was just farsighted enough to think ahead and be wise enough to call him Spider-Man.

Hmm… about his powers?... Well, considering that his name was Spider-Man, it would have been silly to give him any powers other than the spider powers, I think. It seems to me, since we called him Spider-Man, like any good spider, he should be able to crawl on walls, he should be able to spin a web. That was just very natural. Perhaps the cleverest part of it was thinking that he should have the proportionate strength of a spider, which of course means, if a spider were the size of a man, how strong would he be? And I always loved that phrase, “the proportionate strength of a spider.” Working with Steve Ditko was an absolute joy. He was fast. He was good. He was inventive, creative. After the first few stories, Steve was very helpful in the plotting. In fact, after a while he did most of the plotting and I just wrote the copy. So, it was really a true collaboration between me and Steve Ditko. It was really very funny when I suggested “SpiderMan” to my publisher, Martin Goodman. He thought it was the worst idea ever. He said, “Stan, you can’t give a hero the name Spider-Man. People hate spiders!” And then, when I told him I wanted Peter to be a teenager, he said, “No, teenagers can only be sidekicks!” And then, when I told him that I wanted Peter to have a lot of personal problems—he’s not that popular with his friends; he has to worry

The Amazing Steve & Spidey, Man! Steve Ditko—and two stages of a pair of primo panels from his final issue of The Amazing Spider-Man: #38 (July 1966), “Just a Guy Named Joe!” (Left:) The only clearly printable panels from a photocopy of Ditko’s rough pencils, with Lee’s text already added by letterer Artie Simek. With thanks to David “Hambone” Hamilton. (Right:) The same two panels from the finished comic. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] (Top center:) The affectionate caricature of Ditko turning 81 in 2008—drawn by noted Brazilian cartoonist Almeida Bira—utilizes images of three of Ditko’s most noted co-creations. For photos of Steve, see p. 8. Thanks to Roberto Guedes. [Caricature © 2011 Almeida Bira; Spider-Man & Doctor Strange art © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.; Mr. A art © 2011 Steve Ditko.]

Well, the reason “Spider-Man” first appeared in Amazing Fantasy is: As you may remember, my publisher hated the idea and didn’t want me to go ahead with the script. But I just felt I had to get it out of my system. Well, we had a magazine called Amazing Fantasy that I loved, but it wasn’t selling. And we were about to drop it. Now, when you drop a magazine, nobody cares what you put in the last issue. Because it doesn’t matter; that’s the last issue and there won’t be any more. So, just for fun, I put “Spider-Man” in the last issue of Amazing Fan… Fantasy—almost forgot the name—and I featured him on the cover, just to get it out of my system. Strangely enough, that was the best-selling book that we had had all year after it was published. So, it shows virtue is

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

rewarded and righteousness always triumphs. After Jenna has a brief exchange with the recording engineer: A question for the engineer? Am I competing with the engineer? His answers better not be cleverer than mine. [in response to an unrecorded comment from someone:] I like your attitude. Stan is asked about the creation of J. Jonah Jameson as a foil for Spider-Man. You probably can’t tell by listening to me, but I love humor. And I feel that, even in serious stories, the more you inject elements of humor, the more palatable it is and the more you enjoy the story. So, even though “Spider-Man” was the story of a super-hero who’s fighting deadly super-villains, I wanted to inject some humor, and I couldn’t think of a better way to do it than to have another character that Spider-Man or Peter Parker would be involved with and who would hate Spider-Man. And who would not like Peter Parker that much, either. But poor Peter had to be with this guy, and of course that would be Jonah Jameson, the publisher of The Daily Bugle, which was the newspaper that Peter sold photographs to on a freelance basis.

You don’t see any skin, any flesh at all, which is unusual. On most other superhero costumes, you see a bit of the face, or the hands, or something. Well, what happened was, it was a very fortuitous choice of costume, because—and I learned this later; I wasn’t aware of it in the beginning—but it happened that any young person of any race could identify with Peter Parker, or rather Spider-Man. Because, for all we knew, under the costume, he could have been black… he could have been Asian… he could have been Indian. He could have been anybody with any skin color. And I think that turned out to be a wonderful thing, and I think it may be one of the reasons that Spider-Man is so popular all over the world. “Tell us about Dr. Octopus.”

Hm-hmm… I always loved Dr. Octopus. First of all, as you may have realized by now, I love wacky names. And the big thing with a villain— usually in creating a villain the first thing I would think of was a name, and then I would try to think of, “Well, now that I’ve got the name, who’s the character going to be and what will he do?” For some reason, I thought of an octopus. I thought, “I want to call somebody Octopus. And I want him to have a couple of extra arms just for fun.” “Look Out! Here Comes The Spider-Man!” But I had to figure out how to do that. Because virtually all of Stan’s Marvel work has been reprinted—and Well, I worked that out. But then, Now, I didn’t want to make him like re-reprinted—and re-re-reprinted—this A/E will feature very few getting back to the name: Since he was a the editor of the paper that Superman images taken from the comics themselves, such as the Kirbyscientist, I figured, I’ll call him Dr. was involved in—although I never read penciled cover of Amazing Fantasy #15 (Aug. 1962)! The above art— Octopus, which sounded good to me. “Superman” that much. But I know the cover Steve Ditko drew for that issue but which Stan and/or But again, I kept thinking about it and— there was an editor, a publisher, or publisher Martin Goodman elected not to use—saw print for the oh, incidentally, in order to make it somebody named Perry White. And as first time in Marvel Tales #137 (March 1982). Thanks to Henry realistic, I called him Dr. Otto Octavius. far as I could tell, he was just a regular Kujawa. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] But because he had these artificial guy. But I made our J. Jonah Jameson As for Stan saying, “I’m not sure I had so much faith in ‘Spidertentacles, I had the people who knew not really a regular guy. I made him Man’”—Jenna Free asked that question partly because Roy’d told him call him Doc Ock—Dr. Octopus. irascible, a loudmouth, bigoted, narrow- her that 1960s Marvel production manager Sol Brodsky had used the Just as a nickname. Something that they minded, with a quick temper… very phrase “Stan always had faith in ‘Spider-Man’” when talking might in real life call somebody whose everybody that you wouldn’t like. And to the very interested new staffer RT about the subject in 1965-66. name was Octavius, and who looked like poor Peter was stuck with this guy as his that. But then I thought I’d even make it boss. And I don’t know if the readers more of a nickname, and I changed Dr. Octopus to Doc Ock. And I loved liked it, but I had a lot of fun writing the dialogue between Peter and J. Doc Ock. I always think of him as Doc Ock. As you can tell, I really turn Jonah Jameson. on to strange names. Jenna asks Stan why he had so much faith in Spider-Man as a character? I guess I nickname everybody. For example, Spider-Man himself. I You know, it’s a funny thing… I’m not sure that I had so much faith in mean, nobody ever called Superman “Supey,” as far as I know. But I felt, “Spider-Man.” It was just an idea that I had. And I hate to let an idea go to “Spider-Man, it’s a good name. It’s dramatic, but it’s a little bit stiff.” So I waste. I wasn’t sure it would be a hit. It was just something I wanted to do, began to refer to him as “Spidey.” And I think I did that with most of our mainly because I felt he’s different than all the other super-heroes. First of heroes. I gave almost all of them nicknames which I enjoyed. I had no all, he was a teenager and all the others were adults. They had teenage idea how the readers felt about it, but I was making myself happy when I sidekicks, but that was all. And he had all these problems. And he wasn’t wrote the stories. that handsome. And he wasn’t that tall or strong, and I just thought it I think it humanizes them. And I think it also makes the reader feel a would be fun to do it. I wasn’t certain that it would be successful, but I little friendly toward them. Daredevil I called “Horn-head,” and Thor I wanted to try it. I love trying new things. called “Goldilocks,” ’cause he had that long golden hair. I had little names There’s one very interesting thing about Spider Man’s costume that I for everybody. don’t know if everybody is aware of. And it happened, I think, accidentally. When Steve Ditko designed the costume, he covered Peter up totally.

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

“Why didn’t Peter Parker tell the world he now had spider-powers?” I just felt it was more dramatic for Peter to keep his Spider-Man identity a secret, because if everybody knew he was Spider-Man, I couldn’t get as many problems for him in his life, in his personal life. And it just seems to me that the more personal problems a character has, the more interesting he is. So, except for the Fantastic Four, I think just about all or most of our super-hero characters had secret identities. Jenna asks for a few words about The Green Goblin. The Green Goblin, of course, is another of my favorite villains. In fact, I think all of my villains are my favorite villains. But Steve and I—Steve Ditko, the artist, and the co-plotter, I might add—we had a big argument. Now, I’m not sure it was about The Green Goblin. It might have been about someone else, ’cause my memory is terrible—but The Green Goblin will serve as a good example. So let’s say it was about The Green Goblin. At some point we had to tell the reader who The Green Goblin really was. And Steve wanted him to turn out to be just some character that we had never seen before. Because, he said, in real life, very often a villain turns out to be somebody that you never knew. And I felt that that would be wrong. I felt, in a sense, it would be like cheating the reader. It would be like in a murder mystery where you find out, well, it was the butler who did it, or it was the innocent aunt or someone. But if it’s somebody you didn’t know and had never seen, then what was the point of following all the clues? I think that frustrates the reader. So that was a big argument that we had. And we ended up… I won that one. And not probably because I was any more right than Steve, but because I was the editor. So we made The Green Goblin turn out to be Harry Osborne, who was this millionaire businessman. And of course that led to a

lot more complications, because he had this son who was Peter’s best friend, who hated Spider-Man because Spider-Man was the one who had brought his father down. And, as I mentioned, the more complications you get, I think the better the story is. After Roy, through Jenna, corrects Stan on a point or two: What did I say? [after Roy’s response] That’s typical. You know, Roy, I don’t think it was The Green Goblin. I think we had a—he was a gangster. There was a gangster in one story. That’s who it was! Oh, is that what happened? So, I was right about the—Okay. Good. So, now I gotta say it again. Cuz it was Norman Osborne. Harry is the son, right? [At this point, Stan rephrases his answer in the previous paragraph, replacing “Harry Osborne” with “Norman Osborne.”] “What about your second character created with Steve Ditko?” The two of us? You mean— Oh, I see. Of course, another favorite of mine, which I did with Steve Ditko, was “Doctor Strange.” We had done a character some years ago—I think we called him Dr. Droom, or something—who had been a magician. And I always liked him, but I forgot about him. It was a one-shot thing. And one day while we were trying to think of some new heroes, I thought I’d like to bring back a magician. And I gave him the name Doctor Strange—I think Stephen Strange; something like that. And Steve was the fellow who drew it.

Goblin Up Spider-Man Collector/dealer Mike Burkey, whose art website is www.romitaman.com, no less, supplied us with this never-used version of a Spidey/Green Goblin penciled page from Amazing Spider-Man #40 (Sept. 1966). He says it’s “the only existing large art [i.e., twice-up] fully penciled John Romita ASM page I’ve ever come across in 20 years of collecting Amazing Spider-Man artwork!... The Norman Osborn head was inked partially, and John Romita, as a favor, redrew the Norman Osborn head in pencil on a separate piece of drawing board which fits perfectly over the partially inked Norman Osborn head! What a great guy John Romita is… and what a great piece of art we have here!” ’Course, since Mike was selling the page, he could’ve been excused for exaggerating just a bit—but, in truth, it is a great unused page find. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

I don’t think “Doctor Strange” would ever have been as successful if anyone but Steve Ditko had drawn him. Because Steve found a way to draw backgrounds and areas that we made up, like Dream World and all kind of other dimensions. The way Steve drew these places, you really thought you were in a different dimension. And, of course, Steve gave Doctor Strange this great cloak and this amulet that he wore, and everything looked mysterious and magical. And all I had to do was write the

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

uncertain what she’s trying to ask him about. Finally, Roy feels he must step in, and says to Jenna, “Tell him it’s the lifting scene.” Jenna speaks into the mike: “Roy says it’s the lifting scene.” And, with that clue-phrase, Stan is off and running…. Oh, the lifting. Now, he’s got to bring the medicine to save Aunt May’s life and he’s trapped in a subway tunnel, right? Okay. And it was called “The Final Chapter.” One of my all-time favorite stories. That was illustrated by Steve Ditko—

Love Is “Strange”

[Stan is asked to rephrase his response.] The “Spider-Man” story called “The Final Chapter.” Now, in this one I had a situation where Peter Parker, or Spider-Man, had to deliver some medicine—he had to bring some medicine to his Aunt May, who is deathly ill, and needed that medicine to save her life. But at the same time, obviously, there was a villain involved. And Peter, or Spider-Man, found himself trapped in a subway tunnel with some huge something—a big piece of iron, it was huge, that was holding him down. And he couldn’t escape without lifting that off him. But it was more than any person could lift. And it looked as though he would be trapped there forever. And, of course, Aunt May would go to her final reward, because he wouldn’t have the medicine for her in time.

We love it! Pro cartoonist (and comics fan) Jim Engel created this piece of “digital wallpaper” as a Steve Ditko screensaver. It juxtaposes two 1959 photos of Ditko taken at the studio he shared with his colleague and fellow artist, Eric Stanton, with mid-’60s “Doctor Strange” scenes in which the Mystic Master walked some of those patented Ditko dimensions. [Doctor Strange art © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

words, and I tried to keep them mystical. I tried to come up with a lot of incantations. For example, if Doctor Strange was gonna perform a feat of magic, I didn’t want him to say “Abracadabra” or something that everybody knew. So I would make up things like “By the hoary Hosts of Hoggoth, so let it be.” Or “By the shades of the shadowy Seraphim!” Things I didn’t have any idea what they meant. They didn’t mean anything, but I thought they sounded good. And the funny thing about it—years later when I use to lecture at colleges, during the question-and-answer period, inevitably, some student would get up and say, “Stan, we’ve been studying those incantations, and we found that they were based on ancient druid writings, or on—” They’d think of something. And it broke their heart when I would tell them, “No, I just used them because they sounded good.” Jenna asks why so many of the early Marvel heroes all lived and worked in New York City? Stan seems to have understood her to have asked if they all lived in New York. Did they? [after Jenna offers to show him some unspecified materials] Oh, that’s okay. I don’t have to see that. Well, with all our super-heroes, the one great thing about them, from my point of view—they all lived in the same area. They all were pretty much based in New York City. And to keep the feeling that these were real characters, real people, I loved having them meet up in different stories where one would guest-star in another’s book. Nothing could be more logical than to have Spider-Man meet Doctor Strange—or, to put it another way, Doctor Strange meet SpiderMan. Because they had both been drawn by Steve Ditko. So, we did some stories where the two of them did meet. And I just got the biggest kick out of those. And Steve did a wonderful art job on them. At this point, Jenna asks Stan about the unusual and powerful scene in The Amazing Spider-Man #32… but without clearly describing it. Stan draws a blank. Roy, in the outer part of the recording studio, says nothing, because he doesn’t want to become important enough to this session that he will be asked to fly out to L.A. again in a few weeks for the second one. Jenna tries several different configurations of her question, with Stan still

Need A Lift? Sure, we know this is one of the most-reproduced Ditko “Spider-Man” panels ever—but, given the circumstances detailed in Roy’s account of this point in the Stan Lee recordings, we had little choice but to print this full-page panel from Amazing Spider-Man #33 (Feb. 1966). Script by Lee; plot & art by Ditko. Thanks to Barry Pearl for the scan. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

“Assemblers Assemble!” Jack Kirby’s iconic cover for The Avengers #4 (March 1964) has likewise been reprinted within an inch of its life—and don’t worry, you’ll see plenty of Jack’s work before this piece is over!—but here, for your edification and enlightenment, are two other artists’ versions of “some of Earth’s greatest heroes” as they were back in the day.

So, in the story, in the plot, I believe Steve and I worked out that, eventually, Spider Man does manage to lift that huge weight off him and get to Aunt May in time. But I never realized that Steve would draw it so magnificently. Instead of doing it in a couple of scenes—a couple of panels, like perhaps most artists would have done— Steve stretched that out for a number of pages, where you keep seeing Spider-Man straining and forcing himself and trying to lift that huge iron object, but he just couldn’t do it. But he didn’t give up, and panel after panel, page after page, he’s trying to free himself—and finally he does. And when he does, after the reader had seen all those other panels and pages, it was such a thrill. Even to me, and I was the writer of the story! When I saw that, I almost shouted in triumph. Steve did a wonderful job on that. When this answer is over, Jenna turns smiling to Roy and says, “Well, it looks like you’ll be coming out for the second session, as well.” Roy grins back: “Yeah.” After which, she asks Stan about the 1963 origin of The Avengers:

(Left:) Veteran artist Dick Ayers (seen in photo above) inked Kirby on The Avengers #1 (Sept. 1963), in which the everincredible Hulk was a part\ of the team—so it seemed right that his sketch of Ol’ Greenskin and a certain thawed-out shield-slinger should grace these pages. Alas, we’re not sure who provided us with this image; but we do know the photo is from the 1964 Marvel Tales Annual. Thanks to J. Fairfax and Bob Bailey… and to Dick. (Right:) Nexus artist/co-creator Steve Rude’s 1999 interpretation of the classic Kirby cover of Avengers #4 was used as part of Jeff Gelb’s apa-fanzine Men of Mystery, hence the logo. Nice job, Steve! [Wasp, Giant-Man, Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, & Hulk TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Well, we had all these super-heroes, and it was only natural to find a way to put them all together and make a team out of them. And we needed a name. I came up with the name “The Avengers,” which I thought was pretty good. And it’s hard for me to remember—I think in the beginning The Avengers consisted of Captain America, and Iron Man, and maybe Ant-Man and Giant-Man—who are the same man—and The Wasp—I think I called her “The Wondrous Wasp”—and maybe one or two others. But as the series went on, we were always changing the lineup. Whatever characters, whatever heroes we wanted to put in the group, we did. And we would eliminate any others by saying they couldn’t appear at that time because they were involved in another adventure. But instead of just having a team that was together, I always liked to put in these little corny bits, things that the reader can remember. So the first thing I came up with—I thought they needed sort of a battle cry. And when they had to get together to fight some deadly villains, I would have Captain America, or whoever was leading the group at the moment—I’d have them shout, “Avengers assemble!” And I loved that! I’d have it lettered in big letters, and boy, when you heard, “Avengers assemble!” you

knew something was going to happen. Then I also wanted to make it seem realistic. So I decided they needed a headquarters. Well, Tony Stark, Iron Man, was the wealthiest of the group. So I figured he has a place on Fifth Avenue in New York City. He has this mansion that he lives in. So he donated his mansion for the Avengers for their headquarters. I can’t tell you how many fan letters I would receive from kids saying, “We came to New York and we were looking for the Stark mansion and couldn’t find it. What address is it?” [laughs] So that made me feel good. I felt we had accomplished our objective. We had made it seem realistic. Can I go home now? We had two returns [of Captain America]? No. No… vaguely. I can talk about it. Roy makes a comment, relayed through Jenna, to spur

things along. Thanks, Roy…. I had wanted to bring back one of Marvel’s greatest heroes. Well, actually, he was one of the greatest heroes of Timely Comics, because that’s what our company was called in the ’30s and ’40s. And that was Captain America. He hadn’t been published for years. And I always loved Cap, even though I hadn’t created him. I’m able to love things that I don’t create. And I wanted to bring him back, although I didn’t know how the public would react. Nor could I find a good excuse. He was supposed to have been dead, and I couldn’t figure out how to bring him back, but just for fun I brought him back in a “Human Torch” story, but it wasn’t really Captain America. It was somebody pretending to be Captain America. Some villain called The Acrobat. But at least for a number of panels there, he was drawn as Captain America and doing some of the very nimble athletic things Captain America would do, and I wanted to see how it would look and how the readers would react to it. And, judging by the fan mail, the readers really loved him. So now I had to seriously figure out a way to bring Captain America back again.

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

Daredevil’s In the Details The original artist of Daredevil, of course, was Bill Everett—swiftly followed by brief but memorable stints on the mag by first Joe Orlando, then Wally Wood (with a bit of help from Bob Powell)—yet John Romita made his own mark on the horn-headed hero when he took over the series in 1965. John’s hand-written comments on the pencil drawing at right tell the whole story. Need we add that he passed the audition? As for the far-right photo montage of John and some of his most memorable Amazing Spider-Man covers—this is another great screensaver designed by Jim Engel! [Marvel art © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Jenna asks Stan to comment on Daredevil… and when he doesn’t respond right away, she begins to describe DD and his powers. [laughs] Oh, I know who he is… I’m just trying to think how to start. I was about to say, “One of my favorite super-heroes…” but that’s ridiculous, because they’re all my favorites… but I really like Daredevil. I love the idea that he was blind, because all of our super-heroes have some weakness or some handicap or some failing. And when I was trying to think of a new one, I said, “I’m going to go all out. I’m going to see if I can make a blind hero still believable and workable somehow.” So what I did, I had him lose his sight through some radioactive material [that] had hit his eyes. I was very big [on] radioactive material back in those days, [laughs] and even though he lost his sight, we all know that, [with] most sightless people, their other senses come into play more than most people because they need their other senses more. So I just magnified that tremendously. I felt that he could actually hear a person’s heartbeat if the person was near him. And therefore, he could tell if the person was lying, because his hearing was a built-in lie detector. He could read a newspaper by rubbing his hand over the page the way a normal blind man reads Braille, but he could actually feel the ink on the page. That’s how sensitive his fingers were. And I gave him a radar sense so he could tell if anybody or anything was in front of him, behind him, on the side of him. And I gave him a sonar sense… whatever I could think of. The one thing that worried me about Daredevil—I wondered if blind people would be offended, because we were exaggerating so much what a blind person can do, and they might have felt that we’re making it ridiculous. But I was

so pleased—after the books were published, we started getting letters from charities for blind people, like the Lighthouse for the Blind in New York. Letters saying, “We’ve been reading these stories to the people here and they love them, and they’re so pleased you have a super-hero who is sightless.” And, oh boy, that made me feel great! Stan is asked about his frequent use of alliteration in the names of his characters’ real identities. To me, one of the most important things in life is alliteration. I tried to make most of our main characters have names that are alliterative; that is, they’d have the same letter for their first name as their last name. Like

We Double-Daredevil You! The fabulous DD/Sub-Mariner battle illustrated by Wally Wood and scripted by Stan Lee for Daredevil #7 (April 1965) has been “re-presented” many times over, and justly so. Ah, but have you ever seen this color sketch (at left) of one of Woody’s patented “pixies” wearing a DD costume, which Woody apparently once drew as a gift for none other than Jack Kirby? Well, neither had we—’til dealer Mike Burkey came up with it! Woody photo is from the program book of Phil Seuling’s 1975 New York Comic Art Convention, as retrieved from the always-rewarding Golden Age Comic Book Stories website. [Art © 2011 Estate of Wallace Wood.]

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel In

A Fantastic First! If any Marvel cover has been reproduced (and homaged and parodied) even more often than that of Amazing Fantasy #15, it’d be Fantastic Four #1 (Oct. 1961), the very first cover of the “Marvel Age”—even if the company wouldn’t be called “Marvel” till ’63! The above re-creation by penciler Jack Kirby and inker Joe Sinnott dropped two of the original five innocent bystanders, but otherwise captured the feel of what that cover would’ve looked like had later ultimateembellisher Sinnott, rather than a still-uncertain inker (who, however, was probably George Klein), handled the pen and brush. At the time, however, Joe was busy drawing for the Catholic comic book Treasure Chest. [Fantastic Four TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] To the right of that image are the four who made it possible. (From top:) Publisher Martin Goodman (as drawn by Ken Bald for Stan’s 1947 publication Secrets behind the Comics), who directed editor/chief writer Stan to come up with a super-hero team to compete with DC’s new hit Justice League of America. This is often assumed to have been the result of Goodman playing golf with DC co-publisher Jack Liebowitz, but (as comics historian/writer/film producer Michael Uslan argued convincingly in A/E #43) Goodman was far more likely to have been teeing off, instead, with one of the heads of the two companies’ mutual distributor, Independent News. [© 2011 Stan Lee.] Joan (Mrs. Stan) Lee, who gave her hubby some sound advice—seen here in a newspaper photo taken on a 1962 trip home to England. It previously appeared in Blake Bell’s TwoMorrows tome I Have to Live with This Guy! [© 2011 the respective copyright holders.] Stan the Man himself—in a detail from the famous 1965 photo (probably taken by Vince Colletta) first printed on the inside cover of Fantasy Masterpieces #1 (Feb. 1966), wherein he’s holding a copy of F.F. #46. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] And original artist Jack “King” Kirby, seen in a snapshot taken at the 1976 New York “Seulingcon,” as preserved on the Golden Age Comic Book Stories website. Together, this quartet truly constituted a “fantastic four”! [© 2011 the respective copyright holders.]

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

It’s a Miracle Anything Ever Worked Out! (Left:) In his 1990 mag Pure Images #2, Greg Theakston printed Stan’s editorial layout for page 12 of the “Miracle Man” story in Fantastic Four #3 (Feb.-March 1962), with Smiley’s own handwriting and rough sketches done as a guide for penciler Jack Kirby. Stan undoubtedly wanted to alter something Jack had already drawn from Stan’s synopsis. The typewritten notes were added by Greg, deciphering Stan’s writing. At right is the finished page as published. Kirby didn’t slavishly follow Lee’s directions, however: he drew the troops attacking The Human Torch in the middle of the page, not at the top, and turned Stan’s note “Torch melts him down” into a cinematic four-panel sequence at the top, and drew a different—yet oddly parallel— sequence of panels in the bottom row. Stan then scripted, adapting himself to what Jack had penciled, and not worrying about whether or not it was precisely what he had asked for. Putting together a comic book in those days was rarely as simple and straightforward a thing as it can appear to be from a perusal of the published product. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

emerge triumphant from this fight. You’ve got to read it to really get the sense of what I’m saying. But I thought it was so beautifully done and beautifully illustrated by Wallace Wood, one of the great comic book artists of our time. I really hope someday they make a movie out of this particular situation. Jenna thanks Stan for his answer, then asks about John Romita drawing Spider-Man and Daredevil

Daredevil who was Matt Murdock, Spider-Man who was Peter Parker, the Hulk was Bruce Banner, and so forth. Now the reason I did that, [laughs] it’s a little hard to say this, but it’s because I have the worst memory in the world! And I was writing about so many characters, and it was hard for me to remember their names sometimes, but if I could remember one of their names, I knew the other name began with the same letter and that gave me a great hint, a great clue. So it made it easier for me to recall the names, and that was the main reason that I did that.

Jenna asks for a few words about Romita at this stage, since he had been drawing Daredevil before he was assigned to be Ditko’s replacement on Spider-Man. Roy tosses in a few cues for Stan, as well.

Jenna asks about the battle between DD and Namor in Daredevil #7.

Uh-huh. Oh, oh I see. He had been doing Daredevil first. All right.

One of my all-time favorite stories was a story where Daredevil had a fight with Sub-Mariner. Now, Sub-Mariner was really Prince Namor, the Prince of the Deep, the Lord of the Deep. He was created in the early days of Timely by Bill Everett. He was a wonderful character. He was sort of the good/bad guy. He hated the human race because he felt they were responsible for Atlantis sinking under the sea. He could breathe underwater and over-water… I mean he could also breathe the air [despite] the fact that he lived under the sea, and he could handle all that tremendous water pressure. When he reached the surface he was super-strong, the way Superman was super-strong because he didn’t have all the pressure they had up in Krypton. At any rate, he was a hero, but he was an anti-hero. He was always opposed to the human beings, yet he was a good guy, and he was “the noblest Roman of them,” all in a sense.

Now, I’ve got to tell you about John Romita. John Romita is one of the best artists anywhere. This fellow can draw any character we have and do it magnificently, and John had been doing Daredevil for quite a while, but I knew there would be a time when I would need another artist for Spider-Man. And I felt John would be the logical guy, except for the fact that Steve Ditko’s style when he drew Spider-Man was so different than John’s, that I wanted to be sure that John could handle it. So I very sneakily did a story where Spider-Man does appears as a guest star in a Daredevil story just to see how John would do Spider-Man.

Well, I arranged this story where Daredevil met Sub-Mariner, and I forget the reason, but for some reason they had to fight each other. Now, one of the most difficult things to do is to have two of our heroes fight each other, because in a fight usually one wins. Now, whoever loses, that tends to de-glamorize the hero; the kids don’t like their hero to lose. So I found a way to do this story so that even though Daredevil loses because Sub-Mariner is so much more powerful, he loses in a very heroic way to the point that Sub-Mariner, when he goes back into the sea, praises Daredevil for his courage and his valor, and in a sense both of them

Thank you. I don’t know anything about the story itself. And in his first “Spider-Man,” he had to meet Daredevil.

Well, needless to say, he did him wonderfully, and it ended up when Steve left the Spider-Man strip, John did the Spider-Man strip. For the first few issues he copied Steve’s style perfectly. You never would have known he [Ditko] wasn’t drawing the strip anymore. But, little by little, John moved it over to his style, and he did it so slowly and so cleverly that the reader almost didn’t notice. But, you know, an artist can only do his best work when he’s drawing in his own style. So I wanted John to make Spider-Man his character in his style. And the rest is history. Stan is asked a truly familiar question: How did he come up with the idea for The Fantastic Four in 1961? I had been doing comics for a few decades, and I was really getting tired of it, because the publisher that I was working for felt that comics

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

were being read by very young children or by uneducated adults. And therefore he wanted me to keep the dialogue very simple, try to keep the dialogue with words under two syllables, or no more than two syllables… just get a lot of action and fighting and that’s what the readers wanted, and I didn’t feel the same way. And I felt, OK, I’m making a good living, but I can’t do this forever. And I wanted to quit. And just about at that time, Martin said to me (that’s the publisher), Martin said, “What I’d like you to do is a team of heroes—make up a new team.” Because he had heard that our competitors over at DC Comics (they were called National Comics at the time; I’m going back to 1961), he had heard they had a new book called the Justice League, and it was selling well. So he wanted me to create some superheroes and put them in some sort of a team. Now this was before Spider-Man, the Hulk, The X-Men, and all of them. This was our first real book in the Marvel style. And I didn’t want to do it, because I wanted to quit! And my wife said to me, “You know, Stan, why don’t you go ahead and do this book and just get it out of your system? You’ll finally get to do a book the way you want to do, and if Martin doesn’t like it, so what? The worst he can do is fire you, and you want to quit anyway.” So I thought Joanie had given me some good advice. So I wrote The Fantastic Four the way I wanted to do it, not the way we’d been doing books before. First of all, I didn’t give them secret identities. I had always felt that if I had a super-power (which is not to say that I don’t), I wouldn’t immediately put on a mask and a costume. Maybe I’m more conceited than most people, but I would want everybody to know I had a super-power—I’d be proud of it! “Hey, look at me, look what I can do!” [laughs] And also, I wouldn’t go around looking for bad guys to fight; I’d be thinking, “How can I make some money on this? Maybe I can get a guest shot on Jay Leno’s show, or maybe I can join the circus. I wonder what they’d pay me?” So I wanted to get people who acted realistically.

Put Some English On It!

Jack penciled this drawing of Dr. Doom sneaking up on The Thing for the 1978 London So we had to have four members of the group; one of Comic Art Convention book. Thanks to John Morrow and the Kirby estate. them had to be a girl. But again, I didn’t want her to be [Dr. Doom & Thing TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] somebody who had to be rescued all the time. I made her somebody who had her own super-power, and she knew who Oh, let’s keep going. Are we almost finished?... the others were, and she was a regular fighting member of the team.

We had to have the obligatory teenager, but I made him a regular guy, not just a sidekick. I made him a guy who didn’t really want to be a superhero. He wanted to go out with girls, drive a Chevy Corvette, and have fun. The leader, who had to be the smartest, bravest guy in the world—I made him a little bit dull. He used too many big words when he spoke, and he pontificated a lot. The fourth member of the group, The Thing, was sort of the strongest man in the world and half-monster—he was always yelling at the leader, Reed, and telling him, “Ah, shut up!” And Reed, who called himself Mr. Fantastic, in his own modest way—he and the boy and the girl and The Thing—I treated them like a family, where they had their arguments, and so forth, and that was the Fantastic Four. And I figured, I’m going to go with it and see what happens. Luckily it sold very well, and it was the start of the so-called Marvel Age of Comics. Jenna, aware that Stan has been talking for a while now, and that his previous response had been a particularly long one, asks if he’d like to take a short break.

Jenna gives a noncommittal answer and asks about Fantastic Four #4 and the return of The Sub-Mariner. All right. The big thing is, is Roy satisfied? We gotta keep Roy happy. Is this the one, Roy, where he falls in love with Sue Storm? [after Roy responds affirmatively through Jenna] All right. In trying to keep our comic book characters human in the minds of the readers, I like to get situations that might happen in real life. So in issue 4 of The Fantastic Four, I wanted to bring in The Sub-Mariner, Bill Everett’s great creation. And to keep it in what I thought was a realistic phase, I wanted The SubMariner to fall in love with Sue Storm, who was engaged to Reed Richards. And I wanted to have a romantic triangle, where the villain also loves the girl that the hero loves—except this villain wasn’t a real villain, ’cause we know he’s basically a good guy. It’s just that he’s on the other side of the fence; he doesn’t like human beings that much. But he himself looks like a human being except the tiny little wings on his ankles, which is kind of funny. Bill had put them there years ago when he created The Sub-Mariner and he was able to fly. And I always wondered how these tiny wings that were the size of butterfly wings could make a guy fly, but hey, it was comics and I didn’t worry about it.

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

Clothes Make The Man—And The SuperHero Team! Stan has often stated that he put costumes (really, uniforms) on the Fantastic Four only after a deluge of letters from readers of issue #1. Stan himself at some point played around by drawing a number of possible chest insignias, as seen at left, before settling on the simple number “4” in a circle—while at some point, according to some reports, it was thought that perhaps they should wear masks, before it was realized that they had already long since blown any possible secret identities. Accordingly, in Pure Images #3, Greg Theakston embellished a Kirby drawing to show what the heroes might’ve wound up looking like. No mask for the Thing—but we can’t help wondering if the Torch would’ve been shown wearing one when he flamed off!? [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Stan is queried about Fantastic Four #5, in which Dr. Doom was introduced. Ooooh. I don’t remember the story, but I remember Dr. Doom, so I’ll see what I can do. In issue #5 we introduced not only one of my favorite villains but one of the favorite villains in all of comicdom—even though he’s got the quite corny name of Dr. Doom. (I think I called him something—excuse me a minute; Roy, what’s his first name? [Roy answers through Jenna.] Victor, right…. I think I called him Victor Von Doom. We didn’t come up with his origin until months or years later, where we explained where he came from and how he got to be the way he was. But when we meet him in issue 5, he is wearing a suit of armor and an iron mask. He looks like the Man in the Iron Mask. I thought he was one of the best-looking villains that Jack had ever created. I mean, he looked menacing and dangerous and powerful, and not unlike Darth Vader, who came up a little bit later. At any rate, he proved to be the best villain, I think, that the Fantastic Four has ever had. Because he was a great scientist as Reed was. And we learned that he and Reed had been classmates in college. It just happened that Victor Von Doom followed the dark side, and Reed was a good guy. Von Doom, or Dr. Doom as we called him, was a master of robotics. And he had all of these robots who he could have do these things for him, and his whole costume had weaponry and armor, and he was a fascinating character. And a very noble character, in his own way. I had made him the king of Latveria, and when he came to America to confront the Fantastic Four, as a king he had diplomatic immunity, so he couldn’t really be arrested for something. And there’s something I always got a kick out of. What did Dr. Doom really want? He wanted to rule the world. Now think about this. You

could cross a street against a traffic light and you could get a summons for jaywalking. But you could walk up to a policeman and say, “Officer, I want to rule the world.” There’s nothing he could do about it; that is not a crime. Anybody could want to rule the world. So even though he was the Fantastic Four’s greatest menace, in my mind he wasn’t even a criminal. I mean, think about that for a while. This leads Jenna to ask Stan to talk about his FF collaborator, Jack Kirby. It’s really impossible to talk about The Fantastic Four without talking about Jack Kirby. Just as I felt we couldn’t have had Spider-Man the way it was without Steve Ditko, there’s no way that The Fantastic Four would have been the monster success that it was without the artwork and the imagination and the creativity of Jack Kirby. See, in the beginning, I would just give Jack the plot, the idea for the story, but I didn’t tell him how to draw. Jack would take an idea and do it his own way in his own style, and he would often add many thoughts and ideas and concepts that hadn’t even occurred to me, and the two of us working together—I think we were such a good team because I think we sort of fed off each other. I gave him ideas, he gave me ideas, I was able to run as far as the dialogue and captions were concerned with the ideas that he gave me, and he was able to take ideas that I gave him and amplify them and embellish them, and make them better than the way that I had said them. After a while with The Fantastic Four, after a number of issues, because I was so busy doing other things, Jack actually wrote most of the plots himself. I would just give him a few words, like “I think that next issue we should use the Skrulls.” They’re people who came to Earth from another planet, and they can make themselves look like anybody. You know, I’d tell him a few words—and then he would put in all the other details of the story. So The Fantastic Four really was a true collaboration between Jack Kirby and myself. Jenna asks about the story [issue #9] in which the Fantastic Four lost all

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

their money and were evicted from the Baxter Building. Again I want to mention that I always wanted to keep these characters as realistic as possible. Even though what they did was incredibly fantastic, I tried to base them in the real world and give them real-world problems. And one day it occurred to me it would be fun to show they lost all their money, they were bankrupt. Here they had this big headquarters in a building they called the Baxter Building, and they must have had to pay a tremendous amount of rent, because they had rockets in the building, and all sorts of weaponry and scientific devices. And I believe I had Reed Richards announce one day that he had lost all his money through bad stock investments, and they were evicted from their headquarters. And I don’t think that had happened in any other comic book, where superheroes got kicked out of their headquarters because they couldn’t pay their rent. So that was my idea of keeping a fantasy series as close to reality as possible. I have no idea what happened after that. Jenna asks about the early, oft-humorous byplay between The Thing and The Human Torch. Since I really do love comedy a lot, I got the biggest kick out of our two characters, The Human Torch and The Thing, because I tried to think of The Human Torch as a fun-loving, practical joker type of guy; and being as young as he was, he was always teasing The Thing and playing tricks on him. The Thing had a sense of humor also, but he also had a big temper. And I would have the dialogue between the two of them—I embellished that dialogue with wisecracks. I even created a group, a fictional group called the Yancy Street Gang. This was a group that lived near the Fantastic Four, and they especially hated The Thing. Whenever The Thing would come into their neighborhood, they would sit behind a fence and throw rocks or something. They would throw rotten fruit at him. The

Thing, when he wanted to insult The Human Torch, Johnny Storm, would say, “Ahhh, you remind me of a dumb Yancy Streeter!” The Torch would say, “Ahh, go on back to Yancy Street!” And little things like that, and after a while the readers thought they knew Yancy Street. I might add that name was taken from New York’s Lower East Side; when I was a kid, there was a street called Delancey Street. It may still be there for all I know. So I made Yancy just a little ripoff of Delancey. But that was just one of the million things that they would joke about and kid about. And the Torch would always try to give The Thing a hotfoot, and The Thing was always trying to clobber the Torch. It just lightened up the stories, and I felt it made them seem very human. It was almost like any family where two of the brothers often kid around a lot. Stan is queried about the moral points made by some of the stories. Every so often I would try to get some important moral point in our stories. I remember I did one story called “The Hate Monger.” It was really a take-off on, I guess, the KKK, the Ku Klux Klan. It had to do with a villain who really espoused hatred of one group of people for another. And of course the Fantastic Four got involved. And it had a happy ending. I sort of hoped that it would give our readers the idea that it just isn’t right to hate any other group because they’re a different religion or a different race or a different nationality, because all people should be treated the same. We tried to get that point across in all of the Marvel books. In fact we always avoided any mention of religion per se, because I didn’t think it was right for us to in any way give our point of view. The only religion, if you want to call it that, that I felt was applicable in any way, was, “Do unto others as you’d have others do unto you.” And I tried to have all our

Your Hate Parade Artist Keith Pollard’s rendition of The HateMonger from F.F. #21 (Dec. 1963), done for one of the invaluable Marvel Universe volumes of the 1980s & ’90s. Under that hoodie lurked a very infamous face. Repro’d from the original art, with thanks to dealer Anthony Snyder; see his ad on p. 59. [Hate-Monger TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

Ikonic Kirby Two cataclysmic Kirby images which appeared in fan-publications: (Above:) Reed (Mr. Fantastic) Richards and Sue (Invisible Girl/Woman) Storm… or, after that wedding in the 1965 Fantastic Four Annual, is it Reed and Sue Richards… or maybe Mr. and Mrs. Fantastic? Inks by John Byrne, who in the 1980s would craft his own memorable run on F.F. Seen in the 1994 Pure Imagination book Jack Kirby’s Heroes and Villains; thanks to Greg Theakston. (Right:) The Silver Surfer—a character Jack inserted into F.F. #48’s first Galactus issue, and with whom Stan fell instantly in love—especially as inked by Joltin’ Joe Sinnott, both here and in the original “Galactus Trilogy.” From the British fanzine The Jack Kirby Quarterly #4 (July 1995). [Reed, Sue, & Silver Surfer TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

heroes try to follow that creed. They treated other people the way they would want to be treated. Next, Stan is questioned about the early two-part story [Fantastic Four #25-26] in which the F.F. fought the Hulk, and then in a second issue The Avengers got in on the action. Who won? Or was it the usual draw? Through Jenna, Roy relays that it was a draw, but that the Hulk could hold off all the rest of the heroes because he’s perhaps the strongest of them all. He is…. Yeah, the Hulk of course would win any fight, but I’m sure he didn’t, because I wouldn’t have ended it that way. Now, what happened with The Avengers? …To help who? The Hulk was fighting everybody. And this was the first time they met the Avengers? I mean, was this the first time the Fantastic Four and The Avengers met?... Okay…. No, I’ll talk about anything you want. If I don’t remember it, Roy can tell me like he just did. Roy, through Jenna, relates a sentence or two about the above free-for-all;

and Stan, his memory refreshed, gives it his own spin for the recording. One interesting story, I thought, was [when] the Hulk attacked the Fantastic Four. And of course the Hulk was the strongest living being on Earth. And the thing about him was, the more he fought, the stronger he became. So in the beginning he was at least as strong as The Thing, who was the Fantastic Four’s strongest character, but he kept getting stronger all the time, so there really was no way to beat him. In this two-part series, The Avengers came in to help the Fantastic Four. So everybody was fighting all over the place. And it was the Hulk versus The Avengers and the Fantastic Four, and it was really a lot of fun. It had more action and more special effects than you can imagine. I don’t want you to worry, it had a happy ending; everyone took off and everything was great. But it also solidified the relationship between The Avengers and the Fantastic Four. They had met and they mutually respected each other as all good heroes should, and it made it a little easier for me, in the Marvel Universe, to be able to make the readers feel that these people all really did live in the same area. Jenna asks about the wedding of Sue and Reed in 1965’s Fantastic Four Annual #3. I don’t know if it had ever been done before, but I really wanted to do something different with The Fantastic Four. And I felt after a lot of issues and a few years had gone by, that it was time for Sue and Reed to get married. And we did it! We married them in the comic books. In fact, Jack even drew him and me in the comic book on the last page—it was

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

really kind of funny. I think they didn’t want to admit us, because they didn’t know who we were… something like that.

Now, Jack drew a fellow on a flying surfboard in this series. I’d told him about Galactus—it was my plot—but I hadn’t told him anything about a guy on a flying surfboard. I said, “Who’s that?” And he said that “I figured anybody as powerful as Galactus should have a herald who flies ahead of him, who finds planets that will nurture him.” And I liked the way Jack drew this fellow, who looked very noble, and I called him The Silver Surfer. And when he had to talk I had him speak, in very… well that’s the only word for it… in the most noble dialogue that I could. He turned out to be one of our most popular characters. He eventually rebelled against Galactus, and he helped to fight Galactus to save Earth alongside the Fantastic Four. And those three issues of Galactus, Surfer, and the Fantastic Four, proved to be the most popular and perhaps the most memorable issues in all of Marveldom….

And another interesting thing about it… I shouldn’t say… I mean I’m interested, I hope you’re interested. But another thing to say is that I was writing the Spider-Man… oh, forget that. I was thinking of Spider-Man’s wedding. Forget that last sentence. Jenna asks how the wedding of Reed and Sue ended. How did we end it?... Oh, all the characters…. Not only was this wedding a real first for comics, but Jack managed to get a huge wedding scene in which he drew just about every hero and every villain in the Marvel Universe in that scene! That issue was worth buying just for that one scene. Oh, people never forgot that issue, those who read it. Inevitably, Jenna asks about the reader-christened “Galactus Trilogy” in Fantastic Four #48-50, and its introduction of The Silver Surfer. The “Galactus”?... One thing I really got a kick out of: I mentioned earlier that I used to do a lot of lecturing at colleges. Inevitably during the questionsand-answers period, somebody would get up and ask me about “The Galactus Trilogy.” I loved the sound of that! It sounded so erudite, and so academic, as though he’s talking about some literary classic. [laughs] “The Galactus Trilogy.” And what it was, of course: we introduced this character, Galactus, over three issues. And in those same three issues we also introduced The Silver Surfer. And these were two of the most important characters in The Fantastic Four. Galactus was sort of a demi-god. He was much bigger, much taller than any human being. Jack drew him so that sometime he looked like he was thirty feet tall, sometimes he looked fifty feet tall, [laughs] depending on the mood Jack was in, but he was huge. And he came from another galaxy or another universe; and what he did, he actually destroyed planets. Because he needed the life energy of a planet to live. And he had this huge spaceship which had the capability of actually draining the life energy out of a planet, and Galactus would feast on this. But, of course, whoever was on the planet would die. He came to Earth, and it was up to the Fantastic Four to save the whole human race from Galactus’ attack.

Jenna says it’s time to talk about The Incredible Hulk… and why he didn’t wear a costume.

Will The Real Incredible Hulk Please Stop Ripping Up His Shirts? (Above:) A 1977 Kirby Hulk pencil drawing. Thanks again to Mike “Romitaman” Burkey. (Below:) Lou Ferrigno busts loose in the 1970s series The Incredible Hulk. [Hulk TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.; TV still © the respective copyright holders.] Most comics fans know nowadays that the Hulk was colored gray in 1962’s issue #1; and A/E readers, at least, are aware that colorist Stan Goldberg has said it was he who suggested to Stan Lee that the monster-hero be switched to green. But didja know that it was the original intention of Kenneth Johnson, the writer/producer/ director of the Incredible Hulk TV movie that led to the hit series, to make him gray there, as well? (Or even, as we heard recently from one source, red, because that was the color of anger?) Tom Blank, Johnson's assistant director, who was a friend of Roy Thomas', told Roy in 1976 that Johnson considered green too “comic-booky.” (So what the heck was red?) But, a few weeks later, when Roy visited the Hollywood set during the filming of a climactic scene and saw Ferrigno first walk onto the sound stages, Ferrigno’s muscular physique had, indeed, been painted green! When Roy asked Tom what had happened to the gray, the reply was: “Well, they kept trying out different colors, and they decided this was what looked best.” Allegedly, Stan argued with Johnson about the color, as well. These TV and movie people seem to have to constantly convince themselves that they’re re-inventing the wheel!

I had wanted to do a character who was really a semi-monster. I had always loved the story of Frankenstein. The old movie, really, the one with Boris Karloff. And I always felt that the Monster was really the good guy. He didn’t really want to hurt anybody. And those fanatics with their torches were always chasing him up and down the hills and I felt sorry for that Monster. And I also always loved Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and the idea that somebody could change from one identity to another. So I put those two together and I came up with the idea of a normal man who through an accident turns into a monster, the Hulk. But he’s a good monster. He doesn’t want to hurt anybody; it’s just he’s got a violent temper, and if people set him off, so to speak, he goes on a rampage. Well, it was a hard thing to write, but again I gave it to Jack Kirby, and the way he drew it was wonderful, and the Hulk became quite popular. And I felt that Marvel needed a monster in its lineup of characters, and there he was. (Now what was the other one you wanted?) One thing I learned doing comics is, the fans loved costumes on their superheroes. When I had not put costumes in the first issue of The Fantastic Four, and the fan mail came in, most of it said they loved the book, but if you don’t give them costumes, we’ll never buy another issue. Now I don’t know why that is, but fans love costumes. When I came up with the Hulk, I couldn’t think of any excuse for a big monster to buy a

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

costume, and yet I knew the fans loved costumes. So I thought I would do the next best thing. I’ll give him a different color skin, which might look like a costume… I’ll give him a ridiculous color. And I thought I would give him a gray color because I thought that seemed mysterious and scary in a way. Jenna mentions that the Hulk had had gray flesh in issue #1, then green skin from #2 onward. What happened? In the first issue the Hulk was gray, but what happened was, the printer had trouble, for some reason, with the gray color, making it consistent throughout the book. So on one page he was light gray, on another page he was dark gray, on some pages he looked almost white, on some pages he looked black. And I felt this will never do. In a sense, when you’re a writer and an editor, you’re almost like God; you can do almost anything. You can change a person’s skin color. So in the next issue I figured I’m going to get a different color for him. So I started looking around to see what other characters were, and I noticed there were no green characters that I could find so I said, “Okay, I’ll make his skin green.” And he’s been green ever since. Now it was really, I think, a fortuitous choice, because I love catch phrases, and by making him green, I was able to call him things like the Jolly Green Giant, and Ol’ Greenskin, and I played around with the word green in so many different ways, and he’s been green ever since. What did you think of the 1970s TV series The Incredible Hulk, which was one of Marvel’s first real othermedia success stories? The Hulk TV series, the live-action series on network, was one of the best interpretations of our characters that had been done on TV up to that time. Kenneth Johnson, the directorwriter, I think did a

wonderful job. He took this character who was really a comic book monster, and he made him palatable to an older network audience. If any of you remember the old Hulk series, you may not have been aware of this, but you only saw him as the Hulk for about five minutes for the whole hour show. The rest of the time he was David Banner. For some reason they called him David rather than Bruce. He was a normal human being who turned into the Hulk for just a couple of minutes in the beginning of the show and at the end. But the audience waited for it all during the hour. Now, when I wrote The [Incredible] Hulk, I had him speak in comic book parlance. He would say things like, “Me Hulk! Me crush! Hulk smash!” And it was probably okay for a comic book, but it would have been ridiculous in a network series for adults, and Ken had the good taste to not have him talk that way. He didn’t have him talk at all. When he became the Hulk there was no dialogue, and I thought that was very clever of him not to try to emulate that silly comic book talk that I had been using. At the other end of the spectrum from the grotesque Hulk and Thing is Thor. What made you want to launch that character?

Getting Hammered A tiptych of Kirby “Thor” images, all © 2011 Marvel Characters Inc. (Top left:) An almost-used version of the cover of Journey into Mystery #83 (Aug. 1962)— Thor’s debut—as Kirby originally intended it. Either Stan Lee or Martin Goodman had several of the Stone Men of Saturn eliminated, especially the big one directly behind the thunder god, in order to make the hero stand out from the background. Inks by Joe Sinnott. Thanks to Will Murray. (Top right): This 1975 pencil drawing (with a slightly variant pair of gauntlets) was printed in the Spring 1997 issue of the magazine Jack Kirby Quarterly. (Above:) A penciled Kirby panel of Dr. Don Blake that was cut out of a late 1960s “Thor” story by Stan; note Stan’s handwritten directions to production manager Sol Brodsky to save the art so it can be given out an inking sample to a prospective embellisher. The four lines beneath the panel are Jack’s border notes, which were crossed out by Stan. Thanks to Anthony Snyder.

All right, Thor. I may have mentioned that I like nicknames. One of my other favorites is Goldilocks, and for those of you who aren’t familiar with that nickname, I’m talking about Thor, the god of Thunder! Jack and I had already done the Hulk and the Fantastic Four and The X-Men and all these characters, and I was looking for something new. And I thought, what can we do to top all these other characters? And it occurred to me we hadn’t done a god. I thought that would be fun. Well, most people had read all about the Greek gods and the Roman gods, but the Norse gods weren’t as well known. So I figured, hey, why not do the Norse gods? And I thought Thor was

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

probably the most dramatic of all, because he had that magic hammer and he was the most powerful one, and he was the god of thunder! And that just sounded so dramatic. So, that’s what we did. Jack and I did a series based on Thor, and we had Thor’s father, the mighty Odin, the AllFather, and Thor’s friend Balder, and his girlfriend Sif. To make Thor a typical comic book superhero, I gave him a normal mortal identity. He comes to Earth, and on Earth he has a doctor identity. (I don’t remember his name—do you remember his name?) …On Earth he’s Dr. Don Blake. Oh! I know why he doesn’t have the same first and last letter! Although it was my plot, I was very busy, and I asked my brother, Larry Lieber, to write that first story, and Larry wasn’t into the same letter for the first and last name like I was, so he called him Don Blake. So I was stuck with a guy whose first name started with a D and last name began with a B. But over the years I’ve forgiven Larry for that. But at any rate, on Earth he’s a normal doctor who walks with a limp and carries a cane… uses a cane. But there’s a reason for that, because when he hits the cane against the ground a certain way, it turns into the hammer of Thor, and he himself becomes Thor, god of thunder! And one reason… oh, there are many reasons I like Thor… but one of the reasons is, I’m kind of corny about the use of dialogue, and with Thor I was able to have him and the other gods talk in sort of a quasi-Shakespearean-Biblical way of speaking that was different than our other characters. And that was fun to write. Jenna tells Stan that Roy gave her the next question to ask him: “Who’s stronger, Thor or the Hulk?” You know, the Hulk and Thor had a battle in Journey into Mystery, and so many of the readers have said to me, “Who is stronger?” And you know, the truthful answer is, whoever you want it to be, because these are fictional characters, so your guess is as good as mine. But at any rate, it’s hard to know, because the Hulk is the strongest living being and he gets stronger as he keeps fighting. Thor is the god of thunder, the strongest god there is. So, I don’t know… [laughs] You pays your money and you gets your choice. It really depended what mood I was in when I was writing the story as far as who would win the fight. We eventually brought in Hercules, just for fun. Now, Hercules is as strong as Thor. So whenever they would fight it would be a draw, or something would happen to make one win, and it was always an accident. I felt I was cheating a little bit bringing Hercules in, but I did that just for variety. I figured, just like with our regular heroes, they all lived in New York and they bumped into each other. Why couldn’t a Greek god meet a Norse god? And we had fun with that. How did The X-Men come about in 1963? Well, let’s see now. I had done quite a number of characters up until this point, but I needed some more super-heroes. And you may not have thought of this, but the biggest problem with creating super-heroes is: what is their origin? How did they get their power? And I could have only so many characters bitten by a radioactive somebody, or hit by gamma

rays, or cosmic rays, and I was running out of ideas. And also, I’m a lazy guy, and I didn’t want to have to keep working on that. So an inspiration hit me. I was aware that there are mutants in the world. Very often you read about a frog that’s born with five legs. That’s a mutant. Or, you read about a flower that has more petals than it should, and that’s a mutant flower. And I thought, there are mutants in the human race, also. What if I just created some characters and said they’re born this way, they’re mutants? Then I don’t have to come up with any sort of convoluted, complicated explanation. So I took the cowardly way out and said I’m going to just create a bunch of mutants.

X’d Out Now that Charles Xavier and Magneto have taken stage center in the X-Men: First Class movie, maybe it’s time Professor X got a little more respect in Alter Ego, as well—as per this pencil sketch by The King that was inked for Pure Imagination’s Jack Kirby’s Heroes and Villains by pro artist Jae Lee (no relation to Stan). The drawings of the five original X-Men from that 1994 volume were seen in A/E #84. Thanks to Greg Theakston. [Professor X TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

And I did, and I brought the idea to my publisher, Martin Goodman. And I said to Martin, “Look what I’ve got—all these mutants! And I want to call the book The Mutants!” He loved the idea. But he said, “That’s a terrible name, Stan.” I said, “Why?” He said that most of our readers won’t know what a mutant is. Well, I didn’t agree with him, but he was the boss, and he didn’t want to use that name. So I went back and tried to think of another name, and I realized that the character I had gotten to be the head of the mutant group—he was really the teacher at the school the teenage mutants attended—his name was Professor Xavier. And the teenagers themselves all had an extra power. So you see what I’m getting at… eXtra power, Professor Xavier… so I came back to Martin and I said, “What about calling them The X-Men?” And I was very surprised, he said, “Yeah, that sounds good.” Because, when I left the office I thought, “If nobody is going to know what a mutant is, how is anybody going to know what an X-Man is?” But he had OK’d the name and I didn’t want to make waves, so they were called The X-Men. Even though there was a girl in the group, and I hoped nobody would notice the little difficulty there about calling them The X-Men. Next to a character who was introduced in The X-Men: Ka-Zar. Ka-Zar! After a while I was tired of writing about just costumed superheroes, and I remembered years and years ago, back in the 1930s, our company had published pulp magazines. Now, they were different from comic books. They were just story magazines with occasional illustrations printed on pulp paper, which is why they were called pulp magazines. And one of the pulp magazines that we had published, and I had nothing to do with, was called Ka-Zar. And he was sort of like Tarzan. He was a jungle lord or something. I had never read the stories, but I always thought it was a nice name. Now, nobody had seen, read, or heard of Ka-Zar for about 40 years, and I thought what about, just for fun, I bring Ka-Zar back. I’ll bring the

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

And Zabu Makes Two! The drawing at left by Jack Kirby & Chic Stone was originally intended as the cover for X-Men #10 (March 1965); but, once again, Stan Lee and/or Martin Goodman decided to have it redone by the artists. In fact, even the version at right was slightly altered before publication. How? The “MMMS Wants You!” box at bottom right was lowered a little so it wouldn’t cover The Beast’s neck. See all the trouble Marvel went to for its rapturous readers? Far as we know, these two variant images first appeared in The Jack Kirby Quarterly #12 (Spring 1999). [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

would’ve been even worse for the human race. But the name itself was a good name, and they proved to be a worthy opponent for The X-Men.

name back, anyway, because I didn’t know what the stories were. And I’ll make him a Tarzan type, but with a difference. And the difference was that he didn’t have his home in Africa or South America, but he was in a prehistoric jungle. And instead of palling around with a gorilla, I gave him a saber-toothed tiger. And I think I called his jungle the Savage Land. And it was somewhere under the ground, and I apparently gave it some excuse and some rationale when I was writing it. And I kind of liked KaZar. [after an interjection by Jenna:] Oh… it was under Antarctica? [laughs] I just remembered, his Savage Land was located under Antarctica! Luckily, it was thermally heated, [laughs] so he and the animals were able to get by. But I always liked Ka-Zar. He was rough and tough and strong and powerful, and he was our version of Tarzan updated. Jenna now jumps to the Sentinels storyline in X-Men #16-18. Who was it again that created The Sentinels, Roy? Were the robots supposed to destroy the mutants?... [after Roy supplies a couple of initial facts:] Okay. Just to show that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts even more, in The X-Men we had a character called Trask, who was sort of a mad scientist. And he wanted to create some giant robots that could overcome The X-Men, because he felt The X-Men were bad. And he created these robots called The Sentinels. And it was really quite an interesting concept. We’ve used The Sentinels often in the X-Men stories. They were supposed to overcome The X-Men, but what happened was they themselves became bad, and it was up to The X-Men to defeat them, or it

See, when you were characters as powerful as The X-Men, it’s very difficult to find people who can put up a good fight, which is why, in the beginning of The X-Men, I created the League of Evil Mutants, which of course was a silly name. Because if you were an Evil Mutant, you wouldn’t call yourself an Evil Mutant; but I guess I wanted to make it very clear to the readers. [Stan decides to rephrase.] And that’s why I created the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, which, if you really think about it, is a silly name. If I were an Evil Mutant, I wouldn’t want to say, “I am an Evil Mutant, and I belong to a Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.” But that was the name and we lived with it, and it made it very clear to the readers who they were. Jenna next asks about all the “King Kong”-type monsters who’d been appearing in “Marvel comics” before it was Marvel Comics. King Kong? Oh. Before we even created The Fantastic Four, we had been creating a lot of so-called monster magazines. Jack Kirby drew most of those, and I wrote most of them. And we got a big kick out of them. The funny thing about them: they were all pretty similar. They were just huge monsters who were threatening the world, and somehow or other

Chu On This! No need to show a pic of Fin Fang Foom, Stan and Jack’s most celebrated and oft-reprinted Godzilla-sized monster, who eventually found his way into super-hero sagas—though what’s most celebrated about him is his name. Stan reveals in one of the audio bits used for Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Universe—and Roy T. doesn’t recall having heard the story before that day in August 2005—that the name “Fin Fang Foom” was inspired by the title of the 1934 British movie Chu Chin Chow—which the web says was based on a musical play that adapted the legend of “Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves,” with Chu Chin Chow being the fake identity (a Chinese merchant) which is assumed by the hero. The film version starred Anna May Wong and George Robey. [© 2011 the respective copyright holders.]

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

at the end, they got defeated by somebody or some accident. In order to create the monsters, what I would do was just think of any kind of a funny word. Like I’d think of Gorboom! And then I’d add a phrase: “The Thing from beneath the Surface!” Or Kung Kum… or anything that was a phonetic sound would become a monster. But I think the one I liked the best [that] I came up with was Fin Fang Foom. He was some sort of a dragon, and he menaced the world, and I don’t want to worry you, we eventually defeated him, But I want to tell you where the name came from, because a lot of people have asked me this. Fin Fang Foom. When I was a kid, I loved going to the movies. When I say a kid, I mean 10, 11, 12 years old. And there was one movie I’d seen, I remember nothing about it except the name. It took place in China, I believe, and the name of the movie was Chu Chin Chow. Now I have no idea what it meant—I don’t know if it was somebody’s name of a country or a city, but I never forgot that name. Those three words just stuck in my memory: Chu Chin Chow. So when I was looking for the name of a monster, I remembered Chu Chin Chow… and that particular meter, that beat, somehow led to Fin Fang Foom. Chu Chin Chow…Fin Fang Foom. And that’s how Fin Fang Foom was born. Jenna asks about Nick Fury, and Stan misunderstands her. I don’t know what to say about Miss Fury. I didn’t write that, did I, Roy?... [after Jenna clarifies:] Oh, Nick Fury. I’m sorry, I thought you said Miss Fury. Oh yeah. As part of the old Marvel books that we had written, I had one called Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos. These were stories that took place in World War II, and I loved them. But we stopped publishing them after a while, and years later a lot of the readers would write in and ask, “Whatever happened to Sgt. Fury? We loved those stories, and where is he now? Is he still in the Army?” And so forth. And at that time there was a very popular television show called The Man from U.N.C.L.E., sort of a James Bond type of thing. And I thought, just for fun, I’m going to bring Sgt. Fury back again. But it’s now years later and I’m going to make him a colonel, and I’m going to make him the head of an outfit like U.N.C.L.E., a secret military outfit. So I had to think of a name, and I love names, so I came up with the name S.H.I.E.L.D. And let’s see if I can remember what it stood for: Supreme Headquarters International Espionage Law-Enforcement Division—that was it. He is the head of S.H.I.E.L.D., and their headquarters—and I think this was Jack’s idea and it was a wonderful idea—they were headquartered in a floating helicarrier, which was like a super-dirigible that was in orbit above the Earth, so that they were inviolate. Nobody could attack them, they were always safe, and they could look down and, with their instruments, see what was happening all over the planet. And Nick Fury was the head of S.H.I.E.L.D. And oh, we had some great stories! It was one of my favorite characters. In fact years later they did a television movie based on Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.

The Last Name’sThe Same, But… (Above left:) Stan probably thought Jenna Free had said “Miss Fury” rather than “Nick Fury” because, back in the 1940s. Timely had published eight issues of Miss Fury Comics—as per this panel by creator/writer/artist Tarpé Mills in a 1942 issue that reprinted her newspaper comic strip. This panel from the tale/tail was reprinted in turn by Archival Press in 1979. Thanks to Dominic Bongo. [© 2011 the respective copyright holders.] (Above right:) Nick (formerly Sgt.) Fury learns of his promotion in the first “S.H.I.E.L.D.” story, in Strange Tales #135 (Aug. 1965). Actually, contrary to Stan’s memory in 2005, the Sgt. Fury comic was still going strong! Thanks to Barry Pearl. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Next, a request for Stan to talk about Iron Man…. “Iron Man” was really a challenge. At the time I did “Iron Man,” people in America were sick of war, and there was talk of the military-industrial complex, and people kind of hated munitions makers and warmongers and so forth. And just for fun, I figured, I’m gonna get a hero who’s a little like Howard Hughes. He’s an inventor, and a millionaire manufacturer, and he makes, um, munitions; he makes all sorts of armaments for the Army. And I felt, “If I can make this guy popular, then I can do anything!” [laughs] So what I did, I called him Iron Man because, I think, the stories take place in Korea, and he’s over there and he gets injured, and he gets a piece of shrapnel near his heart, and in order to keep his heart beating, he has to wear some sort of a device around his chest, an electrical device, which keeps him alive. And then he creates an entire iron costume. He looks like a modern knight in armor, and he is now Iron Man. And because he’s one of the world’s greatest inventors, his costume gives him the ability—it has jets under the shoes, under the feet, so he can fly—and he’s super-strong and has built-in weaponry and so forth. He proved to be incredibly popular, but he always has that weak heart, and if ever anything happens to this chest device, he’d be in big trouble. And he’s very handsome, and he’s very glamorous, and he’s a real ladies’ man, but he’s afraid to get seriously involved with any female, because he never knows when his heart’ll give out. Strangely enough, we got more fan mail for “Iron Man” from females than any other character we had. And I think it’s because women, young and old, felt sort of sorry for this guy, and they felt, boy, I don’t know… if he were my boyfriend or my husband, I could take care of him, and it wouldn’t be bad having all those millions of dollars, either! [laughs] Because he was the ultimate handsome playboy. Anyway, he became one of The Avengers at Marvel, and he’s been one of

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

very ethnic platoon, because again, I love to show that, in a perfect world, people of all colors, races, and religions would get along well. So I made his platoon—I had it consist of Izzy Cohen, who was Jewish; Gabriel Jones, who was black; Dino Minnelli, who was Italian; Dum-Dum Dugan, I believe he was Irish; and on and on. I had a few others… there was even an Englishman named Percy somebody, and now that I think of it, he seemed a little bit gay, [chuckles] although it wasn’t purposely done that way. However, I loved this platoon, and I think, by the way, that Gabriel Jones, the black soldier, was the first time any black had been a super-hero in a book, ’cause this whole platoon, they were super-heroes. And one thing I’m proudest of—I think those characters acted and

our main characters ever since. Tony Stark, “The Invincible Iron Man”—and it’s his mansion where The Avengers have their headquarters. Jenna asks about Gabriel Jones, the African-American member of the Howling Commandos…. Was he before The Black Panther, Roy?... Okay. No… I probably won’t mention that, but… I’m not a great war lover, but in looking for variety when we were doing so many books, I thought it would be nice to do some stories of World War II. So I created this character, Sgt. Nick Fury, and I really wanted him to be like our version of John Wayne. He’s “rough and tough,” but he’s got a heart of gold, and he loves his men and he takes care of them, and he’s the best darn sergeant in the Army. And just for fun, I wanted to give him a

Getting Some Iron Man In Your Diet (Above:) Ubiquitous 1970s cover artist Gil Kane’s pencil layout for that of Iron Man #62 (Sept. 1973); thanks to Anthony Snyder. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] (Above right:) By 1965, the still-ongoing UK version of the old Timely/Atlas mystery title Spellbound (#51) from publisher L. Miller & Son, like its surviving American cousins, was being headlined by a super-hero—in this case, Iron Man. Shellhead’s still in his original bulky armor in this Steve Ditko drawing (inked by “Iron Man” artistic co-creator Don Heck) that had been the splash page of Tales of Suspense #47 (Nov. 1963). So why wasn’t Jack Kirby’s cover utilized instead? You’d have to have somebody in balmy Britain! To whoever sent us this cover—thanks! Alas, there are a couple of verbal missteps in Stan’s narration, though they didn’t make it into the audio tracks as part of the book. Iron Man’s 1962 creation did not occur during a period when the U.S. was particularly “sick of war”—though Tales of Suspense #39 (March 1963) did hit the newsstands in the immediate aftermath of the Cuban Missile Crisis of October ’62. Likewise, his origin occurred not in Korea, of course, but in Viet Nam, not yet an area of real American military involvement. Stan was doubtless momentarily confusing the Vietnamese War with the Korean War, since he had lived through both of those conflicts, as well as the Second World War.

talked in a very true-to-life way, the way soldiers really did talk, but we were able to achieve that feeling without using any profanity in the books themselves, and I thought that was a real good accomplishment. And of course we had the usual kind of stories where our little platoon, which consisted of just a few men, would defeat half of the German army, the Nazi army. The stories were good. What happened was, I got tired of doing war stories after a while, so at some point we dropped the books, and so much fan mail came in from readers who wanted more of Sgt. Fury, but we didn’t have time, I didn’t have the men to draw it, I didn’t have the time to write it, and we were busy with other things, so we just started re-printing the books, and strangely enough, the reprint versions of Sgt. Fury sold as well as the original ones had! And we reprinted them for the longest time until we finally stopped. [laughs] Apparently, at this stage, Jenna asked Stan to rephrase part of his previous response.

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

Gabriel Jones was probably the first AfricanAmerican super-hero in a comic, and I was very proud of that. I was proud of all these types in Sgt. Fury’s platoon, and I loved the way they were all friends and comrades, and each one of them would’ve taken a bullet for the other one, and it just—Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos was very satisfying to me.

also did a number of Westerns and horror stories and humor strips. He was the most versatile artist in the world. He was as fast as any artist, even as fast as Jack Kirby, who, [laughs] people thought—nobody could be that fast! The way he [Maneely] drew—he would just sketch a line or two in pencil, and then he would take a pen or a brush and go over it and do the finished drawing. It’s as though he actually did his drawing with a pen, or with a brush! And he was accommodating; no matter what you gave him to draw, he did it, he did it quickly and beautifully.

Oh, can I mention about the name? We have time? I almost started that book on a dare, because my publisher Martin said to me once, “Stan, why are our books selling so well? I don’t understand. They seem to be similar to the competition, but we’re outselling them!” And I said, “Well, I think it’s the style that these things are being written and drawn in.” And he said, “No, I don’t think that’s it. I think they’re better names; we’ve got better titles.” I said, “No, that isn’t it!” And we argued about it. So I said, “Look, I’m gonna prove you’re wrong. I’m gonna come up with a book with the worst title in the world, and I bet we could make it sell!” Yeah, now I remember exactly how it happened. And he said, “All right, go ahead.” So I said, “And I’m gonna make it a book of war stories, and you know they’re not as popular as super-hero stories, so if we can make that sell, you’ll know it isn’t the title, or the subject, it’s the style. He said, “Okay,” so I came up with Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos, which really is a terrible title for a comic book! [laughs] And it did sell, and it was successful, and Martin finally had to admit that, well, maybe I was right. [chuckles]

Unfortunately, one day he was going home to his home in Jersey from Manhattan, and something happened on the train, and he fell off the train, and that was the end. It’s just really tragic, because I think Joe Maneely, today, would be one of the most honored artists, if he had just been around a little longer. Jenna next brings up “Captain America Foils the Traitor’s Revenge,” the two-page text story in Captain America Comics #3 (1941) that had become Stan’s first published story of any kind.

Jenna asks about the 1953-55 revival of Timely/Marvel’s “Big Three” heroes: The Human Torch, Captain America, and Sub-Mariner. Woo. This is one Roy could answer much better than me. I remember there was such a book; I don’t remember a damn thing about it. And… who was in it?... [Roy reminds Stan] You know, back in the olden days, like in 1953, whenever Martin told me to do a book, I just did a book without giving it much thought, I’m afraid. One day he said, “I wanna do a book called Young Men, and I want it to feature The Human Torch, SubMariner, and Captain America.” And I said “Great,” and um, we did the book, and it contained those characters, and, you know, nothing happened; it wasn’t anything special. Unfortunately, we really didn’t have anything special until the ’60s, when we started with The Fantastic Four, and we developed our so-called Marvel Style. But Young Men was typical of the type of books that were published in those days, where you just throw a lot of characters into a book, get somebody to write ’em, get somebody to draw them, and you knew you’ll sell a certain amount of copies.

Color Me Embarrassed! By the time of the double-page spread from which the above figure in Sgt. Fury #1 (May 1963) is taken, a tiny image of Gabriel Jones had already been colored “Caucasian pink” on the cover—as well as a slightly larger one on the splash page. But when the engravers “corrected” the flesh coloring on this far larger figure, it was just too much! Fortunately, by #2, they colored Gabe as gray, which would soon give way to a more complex (but more accurate) brown. It took a little time for the engravers to get their heads around the fact that an AfricanAmerican was one of the seven Howling Commandos! Thanks to Barry Pearl. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

While dealing with the 1950s, Jenna asks about an artist of that period who wasn’t around for the Marvel Age: Joe Maneely. One artist who was really great, and it’s very tragic that he didn’t survive, was Joe Maneely. Joe was an artist that worked for us in the early days. One of his most famous strips was one called The Black Knight, and it was really a series about knights in armor, magnificently illustrated. He

Oh that little thing, “The Traitor’s Revenge!”— was that what it was called? I don’t remember the story, but I remember the name. Um… The first story that I actually wrote in comics and was published was in Captain America #3, which was probably in 1940 or ’41, somewhere around there. It wasn’t a comic strip. In those days, the Post Office had a law saying that the publishers couldn’t call a comic magazine a “magazine” unless it had at least two pages of just words without panels. I’m not sure of the reason for that—it doesn’t matter—but because of that, every comic book had two pages of text. And nobody cared who wrote them, ’cause nobody read those two pages. The people who bought the books just wanted the comic strips. So, when I came to work for—it was called Timely Comics at the time—the first assignment I was given was to write one of those two-page text pieces, and I wrote something called “The Traitor’s Revenge” starring Captain America, and it was—I think it was starring Captain America—and it was published in Captain America #3 with my name on it, and oh, I was so proud! I ran home, showed it to all my friends, who never read it, probably, but there I was in a comic book with my name on it. I’ll never forget that day. [NOTE: See p. 4.] Jenna, having been made aware that Stan’s most successful hero creation before 1961 was The Destroyer, in the early 1940s, asks Stan about the character. Dunno. Roy showed me a picture of it, but I don’t know what to say. He was a good guy, right?... [after Roy says a few memory-jogging words to Stan about The Destroyer:]

One of the first really popular characters I created in those early days was called The Destroyer! I love that name! And he was a little like Captain America in those days. He fought the Nazis also, but unlike Captain America, he was in Europe, so he was fighting them overseas. He had a great costume. And I was in my element, I was writing action stories, I had myself a hero, I loved the name “The Destroyer,” and I was

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

Weird—And Wonderful! (Left:) Artist Joe Maneely’s entire three-issue opus on Timely/Atlas’ Black Knight (plus his covers for #4-5) is on gorgeous display in the hardcover Marvel Masterworks: Atlas Era Black Knight/Yellow Claw. But that’s only the tip of the talented iceberg that was Joe Maneely. He drew in virtually every genre—and did them all splendidly, with his own individualistic flair. Here, courtesy of Dr. Michael J. Vassallo, is his cover for Adventures into Weird Worlds #26 (Feb. 1954), at the height of the horror-comics craze. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

All right…. Years ago, when I was writing the Soapbox and the Bullpen Bulletins page—I wrote the whole thing at the time—I would usually end whatever I wrote with some expression like “’Nuff said!,” “Face front!,” or “Hang loose!” or whatever I could think of. And, little by little, I would noticed those expressions creeping into our competitors’ magazines, and I felt I’ve got to think of something that (A) they won’t know what it means; and (B) they won’t know how to spell it. And I came up with the word “Excelsior,” which at that time was the slogan of the State of New York; it was on the New York State code of arms, but I did not know that at the time. I took it because it is from the Old English. It is an Old English expression that I had read somewhere which means “upward and onward to greater glory.” I later learned that it is even on the New York State code of arms, which I thought was great, but anyway, I started writing “Excelsior!,” and I guess it was just too big a word for anyone to cope with, and it sort of remained mine for all this time. EXCELSIOR! That’s for you, for your very own. [chuckles] Jenna asks what Stan would like to be his “legacy.”

off and running. And I even put my name on the story, ha ha ha! At this point the session ended. As he prepared to leave, Stan said a few words about how glad he was that everything was over and had turned out all right, and seemed a bit surprised when Jenna reminded him (if he been told before) that there’d probably have to be a second session in a very few weeks. Stan accepted that in good grace, said they should get in touch with him when the time came, and then he was gone… while Jenna and I were soon winging our way back to Washington State and South Carolina, respectively. But, based on the day’s experience, I was pretty certain I’d be back.

SESSION II (September 2005) As indeed I was, three or four weeks later. The routine was pretty much the same, with Stan just wanting some assurance (which Jenna duly gave) that this indeed would be the final session. However, this one was destined to last approximately as long as the previous one. Stan, Jenna, Leigh, the recording engineer, and I all took our by-now familiar places. This time, Jenna begins by asking Stan about the origin of his motto, “Excelsior!”

Destroy All Nazis! (Right:) The Destroyer, Stan Lee’s most popular super-hero cocreation pre-F.F. #1, goes into action for the first time ever in Mystic Comics #6 (Dec. 1941). Besides his blue face-mask, The Destroyer’s most unique quality was the fact that he did all his Nazi-busting in Occupied Europe, not on the Home Front; Captain America, Human Torch, and Sub-Mariner divided their time between the two. Art by Jack Binder. Thanks to Warren Reece. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

Oh, gosh, I never think of it that way. I guess, if I have to think of a legacy, it would be dreaming up the various super-heroes that I dreamed up, along with working with guys like Jack and Steve and John Romita and John Buscema and Gil Kane. But I'm not much of a legacy type of guy. You know, the thing about comics, it is so collaborative. And I guess what I did mainly—I would come up with the basic idea, and then I would pick an artist. It wasn’t a tough choice to make, because at that time I was with Jack Kirby, and he was the best there is, so whatever he had time for I usually would give to him. I would write the stories and they would do the artwork and they helped a tremendous amount even in the plotting. The artist, especially Jack, would put in things that I never even thought of, and they were always great! So it was easy for me to write the copy, once they had drawn the strip. So, I guess any legacy that I had would be that I think I worked well with other artists. I think I was a good collaborator… Next, Stan is asked how conscious he was in the 1960s of the fact that Marvel was changing comics. Well, I was never conscious of the fact that either I or Marvel or both of us were changing comics, but maybe the one thing that I tried to put into our comics that other people weren’t doing as much of was characterization. I tried to imagine, if these people really lived in the real world, how would they be making a living, and where would they live, who would their family and friends be, and what would their personal problems be, because we all have them (well, except for me, of course). And another thing that I think I’ve never really discussed much… but I think I might have been more or less an innovator in this respect: I love to do thought balloons, and I think too many other strips were not using thought balloons, or not as much as I did. But, to me, a thought balloon enabled me to let the reader know what the character was thinking without having to have the dialogue— and sometimes you couldn’t have him say what he was thinking, but the more you know what a character is thinking, the more you know the character, and I think the more interesting that makes the character to you. So, if anyone reads back on a lot of the old comics that I wrote, they would find they were really filled with thought balloons, probably more

Kirby Goes Fishing For Work (Left:) Stan calls artist Jack Kirby “the best there is”—and surely it was the combination of Stan’s concepts/scripting and Jack’s stellar art/coplotting that made Fantastic Four an immediate hit in 1961. Probably sometime in 1956—at a time when Jack was still drawing “Challengers of the Unknown” for National/DC—fellow artist Gray Morrow drew Kirby as the lead character in the story “When the World Vanished!” in Timely/Atlas’ Mystery Tales #50 (Feb. 1957). The name of the hero of this yarn, whose scripter is unknown, was “Jack Colley.” But it would be 1958, following a dispute with DC editor Jack Schiff over non-DC matters detailed in A/E #94 and elsewhere, before Kirby would return to the company for which he and partner Joe Simon had co-created Captain America Comics in 1940-41. Thanks to Gene Kehoe. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] (Below left:) This house ad from Superboy #64 (April 1958) heralds the coming of the Kirby-drawn feature Challengers of the Unknown into its own mag after several Showcase appearances. Inks by Marvin Stein. The origin of the DC group, scripted by Dave Wood and edited by Schiff, bore some resemblance to that of the later F.F., but the Challs weren’t true superheroes. [© 2011 DC Comics.]

than any other writer used them. [There is a momentary pause in the recording area] I guess you are so overwhelmed by that answer that nobody has anything to say. Stan is asked if he can elaborate a bit more on what he thinks Marvel was all about, in those early days. Okay. I think another thing that Marvel sort of stood for was exciting visuals and great action. I really can’t take too much credit for that. Most of that credit would go to Jack Kirby, because he could take anything that I wrote, and it didn’t matter [chuckles] what I wrote, he would make it look exciting. He had a way of drawing a character—if the guy was just standing there, it would look as if he was doing something worth looking at. Jack just filled those pages with motion and excitement, probably more than any artist before, since, or after, and I think he helped a great deal to give the feeling that the Marvel strips were filled with eye-catching, eye-popping action scenes. I know that I used to tell many of the other artists to look at Jack’s work and try to emulate the way he would put excitement into almost every panel. Jenna asks Stan about influences on him as a child.

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

Three That Towered Three of Stan’s favorite movies as a kid would greatly influence the work he and Jack Kirby would do in the 1960s: the 1933 King Kong (forerunner of Godzilla and all those giant-monster comics) and the 1931 Frankenstein (Lee & Kirby would combine Boris Karloff’s Monster and Colin Clive’s scientist into one person in The Incredible Hulk) and Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (the 1931 Frederic March starrer, a poster for which is pictured, was probably a stronger influence than the 1941 remake with Spencer Tracy). [Images © 2011 the respective copyright holders.]

Well, when I was young, I read a lot. I think everything I read influenced me. I think everything everybody reads influences them. You may not be aware of it—it may be subconscious or subliminal—but the things that I read always stuck in my mind. I loved Tarzan, I loved the work of H.G. Wells, I loved Dickens and Emile Zola… everything I read. I loved Mark Twain. And, of course, movies. I mean, when King Kong first came out, oh man, that knocked me out. And when I saw Frankenstein and Dracula and—all of those things stay in your memory. They stay in your subconscious, and I guess when I would be writing stories I would remember those things and perhaps refer to them. Certainly with “The Hulk” I was very influenced by Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde and the Boris Karloff Frankenstein movie. I just felt that the Monster in Frankenstein was really the good guy; he did not want to hurt anybody, but those idiots with torches kept chasing him up and down the hills all the time, so with “The Hulk” I wanted to get a good monster, and I must have been influenced by Frankenstein. The idea that he changed from a normal man to a monster, I was probably influenced by Jekyll and Hyde. So there you go! Yep! Stan is asked his opinion of the combined text-and-audio format of Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Universe. Oh, the book that we are doing. Now, the format is that you read the book and you hear me talking. Oh, I understand. I really love every method of communication. I love doing comics. I love now working on animation and DVDs and movies and video games and the thought of being involved in a new type of book. A book where you not only can read the story, look at the pictures, but then you can hear a voice describing and giving you greater detail about what you are

reading. I find that fascinating. And I am so happy that I was invited to participate in this. I can’t wait until it is finished and I can see the finished product. I think when the reader opens this book, the first thing he or she should do is treat it very carefully, because it is a most valuable [chuckles] possession, but I would expect that it will be a treat for both the eyes and the ears and the mind, because you will be reading something in a manner you’ve never read something in before, and any time you do something that’s different, any time you experience some form of entertainment that’s different from any that you have experienced before, that’s always kinda thrilling and exciting; at least it is for me. You’re welcome. Jenna, with a bit of input from Roy, asks Stan about the ways in which the Timely Comics of the 1940s and ’50s was different from the so-called Marvel Age that could be considered to begin in 1961. I’m glad you are lending an air of specificity to this, Roy. Anyway, you know before we became Marvel Comics, all of the earlier comics that we did, I was the editor and art director and the head writer, I guess, but my goal was always to please our publisher, Martin Goodman. And Martin felt in those days that our readers were very, very young children or else older people who weren’t too bright or they wouldn’t be reading comics. I don’t think Martin really had a great deal of respect for the medium; and therefore, I was told not to get stories that were too complex, not to dwell on too much dialogue or too much characterization… just to get stories with a lot of action, a lot of running around and fighting and colorful scenes and visually interesting characters like The Human Torch, who was a man on fire, so to speak. That was great, and I was doing those things, and we

Oh Boy! Allies! (Left:) Among “young people’s lit” that affected a youthful Stan was the Boy Allies series originated by “Lt. Robert L. Drake” circa 1915 for a total of around a dozen books, which stayed in print for years. These tales, set during World War I, also influenced Joe Simon & Jack Kirby when they launched Young Allies for Timely in 1941. In the interview Stan momentarily confuses the two names—and he’s surely neither the first nor last person to do so. (Right:) For the first few decades, all the books of the Tarzan knockoff Bomba the Jungle Boy series, launched in the 1920s with a pseudonymous “Roy Rockwood” as writer, sported this same cover with varying titles. [© 2011 the respective copyright holders.]

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

had monster books and we had Western stories and romance stories and war stories. We ran the gamut; we had all types of magazines, and they were always treated pretty much the same. I tried, and all of our writers tried, to do the best stories we could, but in back of our minds we knew that we were doing these for readers who perhaps weren’t too particular or selective, and it wasn’t until we started the so-called new Marvel titles, beginning with The Fantastic Four, that we really made a conscious effort to upgrade our books.

the covers in order to know what they were doing, but very rarely did I have a chance to actually sit down and read one of their stories, and the few times I did read them I was very aware of the difference in style. For example, I remember I read a “Batman” story once because I thought the name “Batman” was very dramatic and I wanted to see what all the fuss was about, and I was a little disappointed. Now remember, this was years ago, and the “Batman” stories are probably different now. I don’t know, because I still don’t read them. The one I read was like a detective story, and everything hinged on the fact, I think, that somebody had left a cigarette in an ashtray and nobody noticed what kind of cigarette it was, and that was the clue that led Batman to realize who the killer was. And I realized that the DC stories were much more carefully plotted, with a lot of details, than the stories that I wrote—because the stories I wrote, I think, you could summarize each one in 2 or 3 sentences. It was always that the villain was doing something bad and the hero had to stop him, and that was essentially it. But at DC they were much more painstaking with their plots, and it seemed to me that they were more carefully plotted.

Jenna apparently asks Stan to take another stab at talking about his reading as a boy. When I was young, before I got into comics, I read everything I could get my hands on. I even read things that I didn’t understand. I used to love to read Shakespeare, and I must admit a lot of it was way over my head, but I loved the sound of the words, the phraseology. I would even sometimes read the Bible. I am not intensely religious, but I kinda loved all those “Thou Hast Not” and “Thou Dost”—the strange way the words were used. It really interested me. And of course I loved adventure stories, Robin Hood, just anything. In those days, they had these hardcover books I still remember; they sold for 50¢ each, which was a fortune to me in those days. And there were the Hardy Boys. Tom Swift, he was a character who was always inventing things. Don Sturdy was a character who was always getting into adventures around the world. The Young Allies—something like that; that may not be the exact title; I don’t even remember—

There’ll Always Be An England —And They’ll Be Reading Marvel Comics

Then there were other companies, of course. The best company to my mind was EC; because before they gave up their comics and just did Mad magazine, they had some wonderful books edited by Harvey Kurtzman and Al Feldstein, and they had war stories and horror stories, and whether you liked the genre or not, the stories were beautifully illustrated, magnificently written, and I think in many ways they were better than anything we were doing. I was a big fan of the EC staff and of their stories. The other companies I didn’t really pay much attention to.

One early homage to (= swipe of) Kirby’s cover for The Fantastic Four #1 And, oh, there was one [series] was this one done for The Comic-Book Price Guide for Great Britain, that I thought was very funny circa 1975, with art credited to “Bonk.” Thanks to Jerry K. Boyd. called Bomba the Jungle Boy. It was [Fantastic Four TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] an absolute rip-off of the Tarzan There was the Archie group stories, except they made Tarzan a teenager and called him Bomba. And doing the Archie books, which I’m sure were good, but I was never that the one thing I remember—I don’t remember the stories—but one funny interested in teenage humor, although I certainly wrote enough of those thing about it, the writer had a habit of having Bomba very often say the books. Let’s see, I did Millie the Model, Hedy of Hollywood, Nellie the same thing. No! Bomba didn’t say it, but the writer wrote the same thing Nurse, Georgie, Willie, Frankie. Anything that was a name became a book about Bomba very often and probably was unaware that he was repeating with us. That’s it! it that much, but whenever Bomba was in trouble and had to do something the writer would write, “With Bomba, to think was to act”— Jenna asks if EC was a competitor to Marvel in the 1960s. and he did this, that, and the other. Well, he must have used that phrase a Well, at the time that Marvel became—again, Roy will have to help me million times: “With Bomba, to think was to act.” And it’s really funny, I on this—was EC still doing their stuff when we began doing so well, Roy? read all those books, and that sentence is all that I can remember of the

stories. [laughs] Did you read them, Roy? [Roy can be heard saying, “I sure did!”] Oh, wow! Jenna asks what Stan thought of Marvel’s competition in the 1960s, most specifically National/DC Comics. I have a confession to make: I was so busy doing our own comics that I very rarely read the competition. I would get the books, I would look at

Roy reminds Stan that, except for Mad, EC basically went out of business by 1956. Oh, that’s why we were doing better; they weren’t around. Why, Jenna asks, does Stan think that the Marvel comics eventually began outselling their DC competition?

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

Oh, DC! That’s easy. I think there might have been many reasons that we were doing better than DC. I think we paid much more attention to trying to make the characters seem real and relatable and emphatic. We tried to make the readers feel that these super-characters might really exist in the real world. As an example, and this is a small indication: Batman was in Gotham City; there is no Gotham City. Superman was in Metropolis; there is no Metropolis. Our characters were all in New York City; there is a New York City. And when they [DC characters] would drive a car, they would drive a Whiz Bang V8 or something. When I had Johnny Storm drive a car, it was a Chevy Corvette. Everything we did, we tried to make the reader feel this could be happening; these guys are in the real world.

lot more into the stories, I must admit, than I even try to put in, but I always try to keep a good moral tone. And the one thing I really tried never to do was show any favoritism about a religion. I never indicated what religion anybody was, really. I never tried to make it look as if being Christian is better than being Muslim or Jewish. These were just people; they were Americans, for the most part; they were good people; and if they were our heroes, they liked all other people who were good, no matter what their race or persuasion were. How, Jenna asks, did Marvel integrate what was happening in its comics with what was going on in the real world—and that included back in the 1940s and ’50s?

You know, it is very difficult to do stories that are supposed to be taking place in the real world and to ignore In fact, I’ll never forget, one thing I thought was one things that are happening in the real world. And that goes way of my best ideas—it was in a “Fantastic Four” story. There back even before I came on board. When I started working at was something going on in Yankee Stadium or some big field, Marvel, which was then called Timely Comics, Joe Simon and probably a ball game, obviously, and we needed a photogJack Hervey were doing stories of Captain America battling rapher up in the stands for some reason in the background, Hitler and the Nazis, because that was taking place in the real and I told Jack to draw Peter Parker. Now, Peter Parker, as world. Later on, when I was doing the books, during the time you know, is Spider-Man, and in his everyday existence he that America was very fearful of the Communist menace, we is a freelance news photographer. So I thought, wouldn’t it had a lot of villains that were Communists, who were Reds. be fun in the “Fantastic Four” story, if we’re going to have a And after that, during the Viet Nam War, we had a lot of picture of a photographer, let’s use Peter Parker. Well, I got stories that dealt with that. It is very difficult not to have more mail from that! Saying: “Boy, this was so terrific! There things that are happening in the real world creep into was Peter in an ‘FF’ story!” And we didn’t make an issue of your own stories. And again, we always try not to be it. We didn’t point it out. He was just there for the readers to editorializing too much, except in cases where it was so recognize. So we did everything we could to black-&-white. I mean, everybody knew make it seem that these were real people in Hitler was the bad guy. We weren’t trying to Ditko Does Kirby—& Kirby Does Ditko! the real world, and you never knew when they influence anyone by doing that. Anyone who would run into each other. (Above:) For Robin Snyder’s publication History of didn’t know Hitler was evil—we would rather Comics, Vol. 1, #5 (May 1990), Steve Ditko drew what Jenna wonders why Stan decided to add he did not read our magazines. he recalled as the rather standard-issue costume moral points to some of Marvel’s early stories. Jack Kirby had originally designed for the hero. What did Stan think of the two Spider-Man [Art © 2011 Steve Ditko.] Well, I don’t want to sound like I’m the movies released up to that date? (Below right:) We’re not sure when or why Jack Kirby most moral guy in the world, but I always felt drew this Spider-Man sketch; but, as he often did, he I always love mentioning the Spider-Man there were some issues that ought to be neglected to add the spider symbol. As Stan was movie—both of them, actually—because I addressed, and the more I realized how influalready freely acknowledging to folks like staffer Roy T. loved those movies so much. To me, they ential our books were, the more I tried to get by the mid-1960s, Jack had begun work penciling what were the two best super-hero movies I have some little moral lessons in the stories. And was to have been the “Spider-Man” origin for 1962’s ever seen; in fact, they might be two of the Amazing Fantasy #15 before Stan opted to give the one of things that I think is really terrible is best movies I have ever seen, for my taste. Of feature instead to Steve Ditko because he didn’t feel the fact that so many people dislike and hate course, I might be prejudiced, but I just love Jack had the right approach for the new hero. This other people just because they are different. costume is almost certainly wholly of Ditko’s devising. them. I think that the characterization, Because they have a different skin color, Thanks to Dominic Bongo. which to me is so important, was so different religion, different nationality, a [Spider-Man TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] beautifully portrayed. The action, different hair color. You can’t figure out why, of course, was but some people just will not accept the fact great: the that someone else is different in any way. emotion, the romance, the putting it in We did one story called “The Hate Monger,” about someone who—I the real world and making everyguess he resembled a member of the Ku Klux Klan, and he was the villain, thing very identiobviously. When I did Sgt. Fury, I wanted to make Sgt. Fury’s platoon as fiable. Making mixed as possible, and we had—let’s see, we had, the first time I think in Peter Parker to comics that there was a Jewish hero—we had a fellow name Izzy Cohen, I be just a think that was his name, who was one of the members of the platoon… normal, we had a black man named Gabriel Jones… we had an Italian, we had a ordinary guy Swede… we had… I don’t even know who all we had. And they all got who wouldn’t along beautifully, and they were all brave and they all fought together, and stand out in a I just wanted to show that people are people. crowd, which is the way I origiAnd I guess I did that with The X-Men. So many people said to me that nally wanted to that was such a great example of how, when people are different, other do him… people tend to oppress them or try to, and yet these people who were different were really trying to help us. A lot of people said it’s a lot like In fact, just Jesus Christ, who was persecuted, and he was good. People would read a as an aside for

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

a moment: when I first did “SpiderMan,” I wanted Jack Kirby to draw the strip, because he was our best artist, and I gave it to him, and I said, “Now, Jack, don’t make the hero look like a Captain America type. I want him to be just an ordinary simple teenager,” and on and on. And when Jack gave me the first few pages, I realized he was too heroic-looking. It wasn’t what I wanted. So I told Jack to forget it, I’d get another artist. And Jack didn’t care; he was doing so many other books, he was probably relieved. I gave it to Steve Ditko, whose style was just perfect for it, because to me the most important thing was not to glamorize Peter Parker, but to make him a character that every teenager who read the book could say, “Oh, that could be me!” And, of course, I think it turned out exactly that way, and even in the two movies, Peter Parker played by Toby Maguire is just an average ordinary-looking guy…. [At this point, Stan restates his theory that Ditko’s Spider-Man costume allows anyone to visualize himself in it.] What is it like to see something you created come alive on a movie or TV screen?

scenes. The one, of course, that everybody remembers is when he kissed Mary Jane while he was upside-down. It’s those little scenes that I love. Speaking of Spider-Man—does Stan remember when Steve Ditko left the Amazing Spider-Man title at the turn of 1966? At first, Stan has to ponder… then… No, no, I remember. Steve Ditko, after I don’t remember how many issues—he did so many issues of Spider-Man, and he really set the style for the script—he finally decided he was going to go off to other endeavors, and he gave up doing Spider-Man, and I had to find another artist. Well, at that time, John Romita was the man I depended on the most, and John was just the greatest guy to work with. I felt there was nothing he couldn’t draw. And I asked John if he would fill in to do Spider-Man now that Ditko had left. But I said, “John, you’ve gotta do it in Steve Ditko’s style.” See, John had his own style—it was sort of a combination of Jack Kirby and some romance illustrator. His action wasn’t quite Kirby’s but he had the same interesting layouts and the same ability to just draw everything beautifully; and it was a lot to ask of him, because Steve Ditko’s artwork was totally different from John’s or Kirby’s, and John knew it was something of an emergency: we needed another artist! Spider-Man was one of our most important strips, and he agreed to do it.

So many people ask me what it’s like to see things I created years ago on the screen with all those special effects, and it’s hard for me to Maybe They Can Get A Handout From Apple Mary? answer, ’cause, to be very honest, “Face it, Tiger! You just hit the jackpot!”... the death of Gwen Stacy… when I see Spider-Man on the Peter Parker stuffs his Spider-Man costume into a trashcan and walks screen, or any of our characters, I away… all these scenes and more have been reprinted and even homaged never think to myself, “Wow, I so often that we figured it would be better to display the above neverThe first few Spider-Men that he created that, and look how well!” printed John Romita drawing of Spidey and MJ. John writes: “This was a did were amazing! They really sketch requested by a ‘Perelman’ guy [during Marvel’s Chapter 11 I’m just sitting in the audience, looked as if Ditko had drawn them. bankruptcy back in the ’90s]—but he chickened out when it was to be enjoying it like anybody else, and it But I realized that, if John is used.” Great drawing, John—and thanks for sharing it with us! never occurs to me, [speaking faster [Spider-Man & MJ TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] following another man’s style, I’m with excitement] “Wow, I did that!” not getting the best of John Romita, in the comics and he drew it, and he who is a wonderful artist. So I said read it, and it’s different than it to him, “You know what, John… little by little, go over to your own style; should be…. Those thoughts never come to me. I’m just sitting and just make it gradual so the readers won’t be shocked.” And he did that, watching a movie as if I had had nothing to do with the origin, and I and after…I can’t remember how many issues it was…but after a while, either enjoy it or not, and in Spider-Man’s case, man, how I enjoyed it! the Spider-Man strip had a different look. It looked like a John Romita It’s funny, most of my favorite moments from the Spider-Man movies strip rather than a Steve Ditko one; but John made the transition so are the emotional ones where Spider-Man is talking to his aunt, the gradually, over a period of months, that nobody seemed to mind. I think conversation he has, with his uncle before he dies, the various speeches he the readers really loved it, because John drew characters that were even has and the romantic bits with him and Mary Jane. The action I take for more realistic than the ones that Steve did. granted; and of course with the way they can do special effects today, One thing that John was wonderful at drawing was beautiful women, those shots of Spider-Man swinging through the city…they’re just sensaand when he drew Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane, and so forth, well, you just tional! In the first one, I wish they had done more of it. That little shot couldn’t imagine any girls being any more beautiful than them. He did where some criminals are robbing something…I don’t know…something make Peter Parker a little better-looking and a little more heroic-looking is happening in the street, and Spider-Man attacks them, and you see him than I imagined he should be, but nobody seemed to mind. And, by then, somersaulting around and spinning over them…. It only lasts about 10-15 Peter Parker was so well accepted by the public…and that was the way seconds, but I love the way they did that, and wish there had been more. John liked to draw, and he was comfortable with it and I certainly didn’t But, as I say, the main things that stick in my mind are the dramatic

mind, either, and the strip suddenly…not suddenly…but after many months, the strip had its own look—and had its John Romita look— and was even more successful. The readers loved it from then on, too. One of the big events of the 1970s was the death of Gwen Stacy in Amazing Spider-Man #121. What does Stan recall about that? You know, a funny thing… John Romita and I always thought Peter Parker would end up with Gwen Stacy. She was going to be the girl in his life. And then we introduced Mary Jane just for fun, and we made Mary Jane different… Gwen was just a nice, nice girl… Mary Jane was like a party girl: she wanted to have fun and she was hip and she was cool and so forth. And somehow, Mary Jane seemed to have all the personality; and much as we tried to make Gwen more attractive, we couldn’t! We, ourselves, felt that Mary Jane ended up being not only more attractive but more fun and more interesting, and we finally decided to let Peter end up with her, but it was…it was as though we couldn’t control our characters—as though the characters had taken over!

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

Another favorite of mine was the time Spider-Man decided to just give up being Spider-Man. Again, that had happened to very few, if any, superheroes before then, but we did it in three panels, and John Romita did a wonderful job on these. In the first panel, Spider-Man is saying, “Perhaps only a madman would do what I do, taking the risks, accepting the dangers, and for what? After all these years, it’s suddenly clear! I must be a gloryhungry fool, or worse!” And then we see him walking quietly down a dark street, and he’s saying, “Being SpiderMan has brought me nothing but unhappiness! In order to satisfy my craving for excitement, I’ve jeopardized everything that really matters! Aunt May, my friends, the girls in my life, and… for what?” And in the final panel, when he’s just getting ready to just get rid of his costume, he says, “Can I be sure my only motive was the conquest of crime? Or was it the heady thrill of battle…the precious taste of triumph…the paranoiac thirst for power which can never be quenched? May Heaven forgive me—the more I think of it, the more I feel Jameson was right!” Jonah Jameson had been saying that [Spider-Man’s] really a fraud, he’s mentally disturbed, he’s a menace, an egomaniac. And then his last two thought balloons are: “In which case, for the sake of my own sanity, there’s only one thing left to do…” And that’s when he decides to give up being Spider-Man; and again this points out how we deal with thought balloons, because those last two panels, they’re all thought balloons as he’s walking through the street at night.

Now, what specifically did you want me to say about this?.... Okay. You know, for years…or for months, anyway… Peter Parker’s aunt had been wanting him to meet this nice young lady who was a niece of a neighbor, I believe. Well, you know how teenagers are: if a relative says, “I’d like you to meet a nice girl!” you If Ever, Oh, Ever, A Lizard There Was… figure, “Oh, the last thing on earth I Spider-Man vs. The Lizard—one of any number of drawings of the want…I can imagine what this nice ol’ Wall-Crawler that John Romita did in his capacity as art director girl is….” And Peter had been avoiding (and later freelancer, after his official “retirement”). Thanks again, John. And didn’t we hear rumors that The Lizard may be the baddie meeting Mary Jane for the longest Jenna asks Stan if he remembers why in the fourth Spider-Man movie? [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] time, but finally, in a couple of panels he wrote that scene. that are my favorite in the whole strip…the doorbell rings and Peter Pardon me? I wrote that because, again, in an effort to be realistic, it opens the door, and the neighbor who has been having dinner with Aunt occurred to me…maybe a super-hero would have second thoughts, maybe Jane… Aunt May… says, “Peter Parker, I’d like you to meet my niece.” there’d be a time when he says, “Why am I doing this? Am I really such a And we see Mary Jane from the back, and Peter is facing Mary Jane. We good guy, or am I kinda conceited? Do I like the cheers of the crowd? Is it see his face… and he says, “You mean that’s Mary Jane!” And in the last appealing to my vanity?” I tried to do anything that made these people panel we see her, and she is the most beautiful, sexy-looking girl that John seem like real people that the reader could identify with; and also I tried could draw, and she says to him, “Face it, Tiger, you just hit the jackpot!” to do anything that the other heroes in our competitive books would and oh, how I love those two panels! [short pause] Is it okay that I use the never think of doing! word “sexy”? Okay! One big event in comic book history at the turn of the 1970s was the Jenna has Stan given a copy of the page in Amazing Spider-Man #50 in Amazing Spider-Man “drug issues” (#96-98, in 1970). Could Stan tell us a which Peter Parker is walking away from his Spider-Man costume, which he bit about them? has stuffed into a trash can, and asks him to comment on that memorable scene. Years ago, I received a letter from the Office of Health, Education, and Welfare in Washington, a Federal government agency. I don’t remember it Should I read the whole page? Yeah… and what did happen… was this word for word, but the context was that they were aware of the influence after Gwen died? I can’t remember… I mean, I don’t know what happened that the Spider-Man magazine had on so many young people, because so before this page… I see, okay, I think I can deal with it. many young people read it, and obviously drugs was a serious problem

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

among many teenagers, and they wanted me to do some sort of a story that would alert kids to the dangers of drug addiction.

why I did it…I would like to publish without the Code seal of approval.” And he said, “Absolutely, Stan! You go ahead and do that!” So, we made this a three-issue story… and all of those three issues went on sale without the seal of approval, and the world did not come to an end. As I mentioned, we got the most laudatory letters from all over, and it turned out just fine.

Well, I think I know people well enough to know that when people are reading something for enjoyment, they don’t want to be lectured to; and I knew if I made it a straight lecture, it would turn the kids off—it would have the wrong effect. But I thought I could put a little We go home now? [laughs] Uh-oh! Now situation in the story, where it would just you’re gonna put tape in the machine and seem to be part of the story, and I thought we’ll start all over again, right? the kids would get it, so—it was so long Jenna asks about the general effect of ago that I don’t remember the details, but censorship under the Comics Code, especially it seems to me [that] some young man that prior to the change in the early 1970s. Peter Parker knew had overdosed on something. I’ve never taken drugs and I That censorship was really not much of a know nothing about them, so I don’t know problem to us, because the main things that what drug it was. I didn’t go into any detail. Smoking Section the Comic Code Authority wanted to He had overdosed on some drug, and he This is definitely not the panel in which the Comics Code prohibit, and wanted to watch out, for was was standing on the roof of a building, and Authority ordered Stan to remove some of the “puff of sex and violence …and we never dealt in sex, the drug had made him think he could fly, smoke”—’cause how do you find a comic book panel certainly, in our stories; and as far as that’s been changed, unless someone kept a copy of the and he was about to jump off the building! violence goes, I dislike violence as much as pre-alteration original? This smoke-filled panel was And, Peter Parker, as Spider-Man, saved his anyone, and I think there’s a great difference approved by the Code, in the filler story “Gun-fight in life, and while saving him he told him what between violence and action. Our stories Grey Gulch!” written by Stan and drawn an idiot he was for taking those drugs and were filled with action, but we never by Pete Morisi for Western Kid #13 (Dec. 1956). how they coulda killed him. But again, it stressed, or even tried to include, any Incidentally, the mystery gunslinger in this oater turned was part of the story; it didn’t…I hope…it semblance of violence. out to be Wild Bill Hickok himself. didn’t seem as though Marvel Comics was Thanks to Donald A. Rex. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] lecturing the readers, and it was really very However, there is one funny story, if I can effective and very successful and we digress. We did a Western once…I think it received so much mail from readers, from parents, from teachers, and might have been called Kid Colt Outlaw—we had so many, I don’t even the Office of Health, Education, and Welfare [sent] a very nice remember which one. But, any rate, there was a panel where the hero “Thank You” note. shoots a gun, and in the next panel the bullet knocks the gun out of the villain’s hand. And when he shot Yeah, of course… nothing comes easy. When I the gun, if you can visualize this— finally did the story about the so-called drug the gun is drawn in profile, and out issue…as you may know, in those days, we had to of the nozzle of the gun you see a submit the comics to a self-censorship organization puff of smoke indicating that the shot has been that had been set up by the publishers. It was called fired—and a hand holding the gun. It was a the Comics Code Authority, and when they were close-up. A hand holding a gun, and a puff of reading these stories, before they would put the smoke showing that the gun was fired; it was a little seal of approval on the magazine, they said, “Oh, panel, and that was it. And we sent the book to the Code, no! You can’t do this story!” I said, “Why?” and they sent it back, and they said that panel had to They said, “Well, according to the rules be changed, and I said, “Well, what on Earth is of the Code Authority, you can’t wrong with it?” and they said, “It’s too violent!” mention drugs in a story!” and I said, “Why?” Now, believe it or not, they And I said, “Look, we’re not said, “The puff of smoke is too large.” telling kids to take drugs. This is an anti-drug theme!” “Oh, no – it doesn’t matter! The Goblin’ll Get You You mention drugs!” I said, “But If You Don’t Watch Out! the Office of Health, Education, and A Romita sketch of The Green Goblin, Welfare, a government agency, the villain of record in the “death of asked us to do it!” “Doesn’t Gwen Stacy” storyline (although Stan matter—you can’t mention might be tempted to add the names of drugs!” Well, I was very proud of our publisher, because I went to him—his name was Martin Goodman—and I said, “Martin”—I could have gotten in trouble, because Martin could have been angry at me. Here the Code didn’t want to do this, and I had done a story they were objecting to, but I said, “Martin, this is the story…this is

Spidey overseer John R., writer Gerry Conway, and editor Roy Thomas to that list). For more great JR art and careerspanning interviews with the artist himself, buy yourself a Labor Day present—the TwoMorrows book John Romita…and All That Jazz, edited by Roy Thomas & Jim Amash. [Green Goblin TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

So, I gave it to one of the artists and he made the puff of smoke a little smaller and we sent it back and they said, “Oh, now it’s fine!” and they OK’d it, and I never knew that a large puff of smoke could be so injurious to young people when they looked at it.

that?” And I had to be reminded later on that I had perhaps reluctantly or perhaps carelessly said “Okay” when they asked me. But, one way or another, the deed was done, and it was still a very dramatic high point in the series…okay.

Jenna returns to the death of Gwen Stacy, to ask Stan to clarify how that storyline came about.

Next, Stan is asked about The Punisher and his introduction in the pages of The Amazing Spider-Man #129.

Well, you’d have to ask Gerry Conway; he wrote it, but I can talk about it if you wish….

Funny thing about The Punisher. Gerry Conway was writing a script and he wanted a character that would turn out to be a hero later on, and he came up with the name The Assassin. And I mentioned that didn’t think we could ever have a comic book where the hero would be called The Assassin, because there’s just too much of a negative connotation to that word. And I remembered that, some time ago, I had had a relatively unimportant character…a throwaway character…who was a robot. It was one of Galactus’ robots, and I had called him The Punisher, and it seemed to me that that was a good name for the character Gerry wanted to write—so I said, “Why not call him The Punisher?” And, since I was the editor, Gerry said, “Okay.” Had I not been the editor, he might have said, “I like my name better.” But at any rate, we ended up calling the character The Punisher. And lo, a legend was born! [pauses and laughs] And I will

All right. You know, while I was away in Europe on business, Gerry Conway, a fine writer, was doing a number of Spider-Man stories. Now, this is rather odd, because sometime earlier I had killed one of the few characters that has ever died in a Marvel comic. Gwen Stacy, the girl that we thought Peter Parker would end up with, had a father who was a police captain. I don’t remember his first name; we called him “Captain Stacy.” A real nice guy, but I thought, to keep the story very realistic, I would have Captain Stacy killed for some reason. So, in some story, he died. Now, when I was in Europe…when I came back…I found that Gerry Conway had done a story in which Gwen Stacy died…Captain Stacy’s daughter. The Goblin…The Green Goblin had killed her by throwing her off a building. Spider-Man was up on the roof of the building at the time, trying to save her, but the story was visually pictured and illustrated in such a way that some of the people watching thought that Spider-Man was responsible for her death. But, the thing that really struck me was, it was as if we had something against the Stacy family. First, Captain Stacy dies, and then his daughter dies, and… however, it was a very dramatic situation. The readers couldn’t believe it. They talked about it for the longest time, and it’s something that people who are long-time SpiderMan readers—they are still quite affected by that particular story. Jenna asks how The Green Goblin died in the next issue, #122. How did he die? Yeah…we refer to it as the Goblin Glider—that I remember! And where did that take place…on the top of a bridge? Yeah, but that happened in the next issue, right…and did Gerry Conway write that? Okay…you know, at Marvel, justice must always triumph, so in the very next issue of Spider-Man, after Gwen Stacy had died, The Green Goblin meets his death while battling Spider-Man on a bridge, and I think that might have been one of the most satisfying stories for the readers, because The Green Goblin was so incredibly evil, and of course he had killed the girl that Peter Parker thought he loved—and when Spider-Man killed The Green Goblin, it was like readers throughout the world breathed a huge sigh of relief. Jenna suggests that Stan rephrase some of the preceding account, so Stan takes another stab at it. You know, speaking of the death of Gwen Stacy, I seem to remember that Gerry Conway was writing the stories at that time, and while John Romita didn’t draw that one, he was still very involved in the Spider-Man strip. He and Gerry, along with Roy Thomas, who of course was editing the books at the time—they were discussing some way to bring some new excitement and interest and surprise into the strip, and I believe John Romita was the one who suggested, “Let’s kill Gwen Stacy!” The other two fellas seemed to agree, and they came me, and I was just getting ready to go to Europe on some sort of a business trip…to meet somebody to discuss something about Marvel. And I think I wasn’t thinking too clearly, because when they said, “We’d like to kill Gwen Stacy,” I said, “Well, if that’s what you want to do, okay.” All I wanted to do was get them out of the office so I could finish packing and get out of there. I think I sort of forgot that I had said okay, and when I came back and I found out that Gwen had been killed, I thought “Why would they do that? Why would Gerry write anything like

Ghost Rider In The Sky This Romita cover sketch could’ve fit on either an issue of The Punisher or one of Ghost Rider. We haven’t bothered to check, but if it was used, it was probably utilized for the latter. Thanks to JR. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

The World’s Greatest Super-Hero Comic Strip? The 7-days-a-week Spider-Man newspaper strip has been going strong since 1977. Some months back, Sunday penciler Alex Saviuk suggested to Stan Lee and his halcyon helpmate Roy Thomas that he’d love to draw a story with the Mole Man sometime. The quick result was a fun story arc in which Moley falls in love with Aunt May (who does, after all, count Doc Ock himself among her old beaux) and drags her and MJ down to Subterranea—with Spidey and the ever-lovin’ blue-eyed Thing in hot pursuit. In this syndicate proof of the Jan. 9, 2011, Sunday inked by Terry Austin, Alex even got a chance to do his own two-panel homage to the cover of FF #1! In the comic strip, incidentally, Peter and MJ are still married. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

never hear “And lo, a legend was born”! [laughs more] How did the Spider-Man newspaper strip begin, nearly 35 years ago? For years, newspaper syndicates had been asking that we do a SpiderMan comic strip for the newspapers…a syndicated strip. I wanted to do one, but I couldn’t figure out how. I couldn’t figure out how could you tell a “Spider-Man” story in three panels a day and still keep the same thrust and impetus and attention level that you could get in a comic book. And finally, after years of newspaper syndicates contacting us, I thought I had figured out a way to write a Spider-Man strip that might work in three or four panels a day. We agreed to do that, and I wrote it, with John Romita in the beginning, and I thought it was just great. It was beautiful, and John’s artwork was spectacular, and I worked like a dog on those stories, and the strip did pretty well. After a while we were very proud of it, because it was in newspapers throughout the country and in many, many papers throughout the world. I think it was in 19—… somewhere in the ’70s the strip started, and it’s still in existence—it’s still being syndicated. I think it might be one of the…it might be the longest-running super-hero strip. I know Batman and Superman, also…if not Superman, it was called The Justice League…I don’t recall. They started about the same time as Spider-Man, and they were out of the papers not long afterwards; but to show the popularity and the pull of Spider-Man, he’s still being syndicated! How did it happen that Peter Parker married Mary Jane Parker in 1987? One day I thought, it’s about time for Spider-Man and MJ to get married. In those days, I wasn’t doing the strip [= the comic book] any more, but I suggested it to whoever was in charge, and they thought it was a good idea, too. Now, I wanted to find a way to have them get married in

the comic books and the newspaper strip at the same time. There is no way I can explain to you how difficult that was, because the comic books are written two or three months ahead, [and] the newspaper strip is written a certain period of time ahead. To synchronize the two was almost impossible. Also, the Spider-Man strip [= comic book] had one storyline going on, and in the newspaper strip we had a totally different storyline going on; and in order to make them sort of come together so there’d be a marriage…well, it was the toughest thing creatively that I think I have ever done or the people at Marvel had done. But we did, somehow, find a way where in the newspaper and in the comic book, Peter Parker and Mary Jane got married at approximately the same time, although I must say: the wedding, the way it was described in the newspaper strip, wasn’t quite exactly the same as in the comic book. But, the idea was there—they did get married. Now, to move it a step further: the people at Marvel made an arrangement with the baseball stadium in New York, where the Mets were playing and it was going to be a very big game—and they wanted, in real life—they wanted a couple of actors to be Mary Jane and Peter Parker. And they wanted them to be married at the stadium before the game started, and of course there’d be press from all over the world—newspaper photographers and reporters—and they allowed me to be the person marrying them. And it was the greatest thing! Just before game started, we had these characters come on the field dressed as Mary Jane and SpiderMan, and we had a lot of the other Marvel characters there as witnesses, and there was I, and in front of thousands of people, I’m saying something like, “Do you take this man,” and, “Do you take this woman,” and the press photographers were snapping it and it was the most incredible event, and all I could keep thinking was: All of those people in the stands,

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

who perhaps were not comic book fans, must have been thinking, “I wish they’d get this show on the road. because I can’t wait for the game to start!” But there were enough comic book fans there that there was a lot of cheering and yelling, and it was just a great event! Jenna asks about the Spider-Man/Daredevil graphic novel which he wrote in 1997. Let’s see…you know, I remember a story I did where Daredevil and Spider-Man and The Kingpin are together in one story. I did it with John Romita, and it was one of my favorite little stories—mainly, because of one line of dialogue that’s in the story, where a villain says to Spider-Man, [in a very gruff voice] “You won’t get out of here alive!” while they’re fighting. And Spider-Man says to him as he punches him, “So we won’t get out alive, huh? Where do you get your dialog, birdbrain? From DC Comics?” [laughs] I just thought that line was just great, and they actually used it…it’s in the book…there’s no way to ever take it back. “Where do you get your dialog, birdbrain? From DC Comics?” That’s just a little gag of mine that I will never forget. Boy, Romita was…is…good. Yeah, he is so good! His son is as good as he is…he’s a little more stylized. [laughs] Well, he’s now known as John Romita, Jr.’s, father. Does anybody have any idea how much longer we have to go?... Jenna tells him. I beg your pardon… You’re joking, of course…? Jenna has Stan handed a copy of the splash page of Amazing SpiderMan #42. Of course, I don’t remember this story at all…. Okay. All you want me to talk about is the splash page? Okay. One of my favorite splash pages, as we call the first page of every story, is the one for “Spider-Man: The Birth of a Super Hero.” Now, the splash page of the story is somewhat like the cover of the magazine or like the poster of a movie—it’s to make the reader want to read the story. There should be something provocative about the splash page, something where, when the reader looks at it, he or she says, “Oh, wow! What’s goin’ on? I’ve gotta read this, and see what it’s all about!” I think this is the perfect one, because “The Birth of a Super Hero” depicts Spider-Man above the crowd on his webbing holding a moneybag, and people are pointing at him and saying, “It’s SpiderMan—taking off with a moneybag from the bank! Stop! Thief!!!” and everybody is saying, “Look! It’s Spider-Man! How could he be a thief!” If that

doesn’t make people want to know what it is…and then of course we have a blurb that says, “No, you’re not looking at someone disguised as Spidey, or imitating him, nor are you witnessing an imaginary or a dream sequence! Is our favorite web-head actually committing a crime? Think it over, frantic one, and we’ll clue you in later!” Now, if that doesn’t make you want to read this story, then you’re not a comic book fan, and you’re certainly not a Spider-Man fan!... You’re welcome! [Jenna asks Stan a question.] I’m sorry, dear, I didn’t hear the last thing you said. [She repeats her question, which deals with Captain America.] Yeah…. Captain America was one of my favorite characters, although I did not create him; Jack Kirby and Joe Simon did. But, when I first started working at the company half a century ago, Captain America was the first superhero that I wrote stories of…and there’s just something about him, so patriotic, noble, and so forth. One of the great “Captain America” stories, I thought, was one that featured the Cosmic Cube, which was a device that Jack Kirby had dreamed up. Anybody possessing it could accomplish almost anything that he or she wanted.

Forget About The Now, what else am I to talk about Wedding March… with that? Oh, yeah…since Captain John Romita is so fond of America had been created during the this drawing of Spidey and days of World War II—in fact, I think Mary Jane on their 1987 wedding even before the war started—when the day that he’s used it on memo stationery. Nazis were considered to be the worst [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] villains ever, Jack and Joe created a villain for Captain America called The Red Skull, who was really the ultimate Nazi. He was really the evil equivalent of Captain America. He was about as strong, and athletic, and nimble, and powerful, and he could do virtually anything Captain America could do. The two of them were continually battling in story after story. Of course, anybody whose face looks like a crimson skull and has a big Nazi symbol on his chest—he has to be a great villain. So, Captain America and The Red Skull became as well known, I think, and as well created and conceived, as Sherlock Holmes and Professor Moriarty. The next question concerns the story Stan and Jim Steranko did together about “The Death of Captain America” in issues #110, 111, & 113 of that

Red Is The Color Of My True Love’s Skull Darlin’ Dick Ayers, who inked many a “Captain America” tale back in the day, drew his own take on Cap’s ultimate foe, The Red Skull—who just happens to be holding the powerful Cosmic Cube. For the original Lee & Kirby saga of the Cosmic Cube, which was serialized in Tales of Suspense #79-81 in 1966, pick up a hardcover copy of Marvel Masterworks: Captain America, Vol. 1—or the premier volume of the black-&-white series Essential Captain America. Thanks to Dick. [Red Skull & Cosmic Cube TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

title. Does he die, Roy? [after Roy relays a few words through Jenna:] Okay, I got it, I think. I read a history book when I was a kid. It was about Alexander the Great, and they used one phrase: “He lived like fire and he died burned out.” And, somehow I think of that phrase when I think of the artist Jim Steranko, who, thank goodness did not die, but he certainly lived like fire. Jim was a guy who appeared on the scene some years ago and from the very first strip he drew, he almost changed the way comics were done. He had a style so unique, and so different that it just fascinated anybody and everybody who looked at it. It was incredibly modern, and designing, and 20th-century, and hip! The hippest art style you could ever imagine. When I first saw Jim’s artwork, I knew we had to use him, and I tried to give him the most important strips I could. He is a multi-talented fellow in that he writes, also, and he did a threepart series of Captain America, called “The Death of Captain America.” And the covers that he drew, and the stories that he Simply Steranko came up with…they were so unique that collectors today still think of them and talk about them and If you want to read the classic Stan Lee/Jim Steranko teaming in Captain America #110-111 & 113, you try to collect them. Jim had a tremendous influence can do so in Marvel Masterworks: Captain America, Vol. 3 or in the comparable volume of the Essential Captain America. In the first half of the 1970s, Steranko packaged the publication FOOM on all the other artists in the business who tried Magazine for the company’s Friends Of Ol’ Marvel fan club—and drew this dynamic Hulk cover also to come up…to make their own styles more (below) for issue #2 (Summer 1973). [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] distinctive and more unique. Steranko really was an Jim himself has been honored by being turned into a digital screensaver (above), courtesy of Jim Engel; inspiration to a lot of people; and it was my lasting the piece utilizes some of Steranko’s mind-bending art. [Marvel images © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.; regret that, after a while, he just got tired of doing other art ©20011 the respective copyright holders.] the comics, and he dropped out of the field. He and I are still friendly…we talk a lot. He does magazine covers and publishes a magazine of his own, and I truly wish he would get back into the comic book field, because he was one of the truly great stylists that I know of. Can Stan say something about Gene Colan? Gene Colan was an artist that I was a big fan of. He did tremendous Daredevil strips, and he did some great Captain Americas, too. One story that I remember… I wanted a scene where Captain America is walking in the street, just thinking, and I wanted to put some interesting thought balloons. Gene, instead of giving me one scene…he extended that for page after page…just shots of Captain America walking in the street. But he’s such a fine artist, and had such a great cinematic sense, that even though we have a few pages of Captain America doing nothing but walking in the street, they are incredibly interesting and you can’t take your eyes away, because of the angles and the perspective and the way he envisioned it. But to give you an idea of what I wanted: as I mentioned before, I like the reader to know what problems a hero has, and what he worries about, and what disturbs him…and, on one page, the thought balloons that I gave Captain America read like this: “I’m like a dinosaur in the Cro-Magnon age…an anachronism whose lived his time…this is the day of the anti-hero, the age of the rebel and the dissenter, it isn’t hip to defend the establishment, only to tear it down! And, in a world rife with injustice, greed, and endless war, who’s to say the rebels are wrong? But I’ve never learned to play by today’s new rules. I’ve spent a life defending the flag, and the law. Perhaps I should have battled less, and questioned more.” I think that is one of the best lines I have ever written: “Perhaps I should have battled less, and questioned more.” This, of course, was written in the days of people who were protesting the [Viet Nam] war, and the hippies and the dissenters. The whole world was in chaos and there was a tough time in

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

America, and Captain America just couldn’t understand why things weren’t as they had always been, and it goes on and on, page after page; but I thought this was a good example of trying to upgrade the stories a little, and get some real meaty philosophy wherever I could. Jenna notes that the SpiderMan newspaper strip that deals with the wedding of Peter and MJ is dedicated to one “Will Smith,” and she asks why. You know, in the Spider-Man newspaper strip, when MJ and Peter Parker got married, we had a wedding gown that had been designed by a designer who unfortunately died just before the strip was printed. And I felt I should make some note of that, so at the bottom of the last panel, I had a note that read: “MJ’s wedding gown was designed by Willi Smith prior to his untimely death. Stan Lee and the amazing Spider-Man fondly remember the amazing Will Smith with fondness and gratitude.” It’s not the kind of thing that you usually put in a comic strip, but I felt that it belonged. Jenna next asks about the first issue of The Silver Surfer’s own series, and its origin for the character. Who drew that one— Buscema, Kirby? Roy relays a couple of remarks through Jenna.

expanding on. So he was one of my all-time favorite characters. At any rate, we had so many requests for the origin—in other words, we introduced him full-blown, but the readers wondered, where did he come from? How did he get to be The Silver Surfer? At that time I was doing a lot of work with John Buscema, who was one of the greatest artists in the business. He was to me the Michaelangelo [of comics]; as an artist, he was one of the finest that has ever been in the comic book business. So I asked him to draw this strip that I wrote, and very briefly the origin of the Surfer was:

Colan Heights

He came from a planet called Zenn-La, where everybody lived in peace and happiness, but there was this villain called Galactus, who was more of a demigod than anything—he was incredibly powerful. Depending on who drew him, he was anywhere between 15 and 50 feet tall. He flew in a ship that spanned the galaxies, and the only thing that kept him alive was draining the energy, the life force, of planets to nourish him… and when he left, the planet was dead. And it wasn’t that he was evil, but he had to live. And he came to the planet Zenn-La, where The Silver Surfer was. The Silver Surfer’s name on the planet was Norrin Radd, and we open seeing Norrin Radd with his girlfriend, I think her name was Shalla-Bal. And they’re in love and they’re happy, and suddenly the Galactus ship comes along, and they’ve heard of the ship from legends and they know what’s going to happen to their planet. There’s no way they can fight the ship; they don’t even have an army or an air force because they’ve been at peace for centuries.

Gene Colan (as seen in the 1969 F.F. Annual’s special photo section)—and a montage of his “Sub-Mariner” work done for Tales to Astonish in the mid1960s under his “Adam Austin” byline, as assembled for the cover of Marvelmania #4 in 1970. The company Marvelmania International was a licensed entrepreneur’s creation that superseded Marvel’s original MMMS (Merry Marvel Marching Society); MMI lasted from 1969 to 1972. Note that, while most of these Namor figures are taken from panels inked by Vince Colletta, the image of Neptune at lower right is a rare instance of preserved 1960s Colan pencilwork! In the Subby figure at left, though, somebody carelessly slapped some Zip-A-Tone over part of Namor’s inner right thigh. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

All right. Do you want me to start talking? About the origin? The Silver Surfer had originally been created by Jack Kirby and me. Jack had drawn him in a strip intending him to be the herald of this character Galactus, and he was sort of a throwaway character who appeared in a few panels; but I loved the way Jack drew him. There was feeling of great nobility in the artwork, and I decided to feature him. I gave him the name the Silver Surfer and I asked Jack… I told him I wanted to use the character more and more, and he became incredibly popular. Again, I let a lot of my own philosophy come out of The Silver Surfer’s lips. My thoughts were often in the Surfer’s dialogue or his thought balloons. And he was probably the most philosophical of all our characters. He was often commenting on the state of the world and of mankind. And why is it that we live in such a magnificent planet where we have enough food and gorgeous weather and oceans and mountains and plains and everything that human beings could want, and yet we have war and crime and violence, and what’s wrong with us? Are we insane? It’s not the type of thing that the average comic book super-hero would be

And as Galactus begins through some sort of mystical way to drain the energy and the life out of the planet, Norrin Radd takes the one spaceship that’s left on the planet, that had been in a museum, and he flies up to Galactus’ ship and he begs Galactus not to destroy his planet. Galactus, of course, says, “I’m sorry, I’ve gotta eat!” and the Surfer finally offers—I can’t remember whether Galactus asked him to do it or the Surfer suggested it, but the Surfer offers to be Galactus’ herald. To travel through space—I think Galactus asked him to, that’s what it was—on a flying surfboard that Galactus will create for him—to find other planets for Galactus to drain the energy from. And if Norrin Radd will do that, he

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

will spare Norrin Radd’s planet. But he says, “I’ll change you; I’ll coat you with a covering over your body so that neither the wind nor the cold nor the heat will ever affect you, and you’ll travel through the rest of eternity through the galaxies and finding planets for me. You’ll never see your home planet again, or the girl you love. And The Silver Surfer—he’s not called the Surfer yet—Norrin Worlds Enough And Time Radd—makes the greatest sacrifice. John Buscema (as per the 1969 F.F. Annual) and a rough sketch by that artist of The Silver Surfer He offers to be Galactus’ herald in facing his monomaniacal master, the world-shattering Galactus. Thanks to dealer Anthony Snyder. order to save his planet, and [Silver Surfer & Galactus TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] Galactus transforms him into The Silver Surfer, and off he goes, to do a Silver Surfer, you might call it a novelette, because he’s a big fan of leaving his planet Zenn-La and the girl he loves, Shalla-Bal, behind the Surfer. And there were so many lines that I loved in it. There was one forever. And as the Silver Surfer series goes on and on, he is always trying place where the Surfer is talking to someone, saying, “Why do you do to find a way to return to Zenn-La and to find Shall-Bal again. And there what you do? You don’t have a chance to succeed.” And the Surfer answers was something so, I thought, Shakespearianly dramatic about this whole by saying, “It’s not given to us to know whether we shall succeed or not. In situation. And I, well, I guess you can tell by the way I’m talking, I really failure there is no disgrace. There can be but one ultimate shame—the loved The Silver Surfer. cowardice of not having tried.” I kinda always liked that. The following question is about Mephisto, the demonic villain who debuted in The Silver Surfer #3. One of The Silver Surfer’s greatest enemies was Mephisto, who was really our version of the Devil. And we had one story where he confronts Silver Surfer and the Surfer says to him, “You do not tempt me, you do not sway me—take me to Shalla-Bal!” And Mephisto says, “The female? Of course, that is the answer! It is she that you love above all else. Thus it follows that her beauty has won your heart. So, therein must lie your weakness,” because he’s been trying to find some weakness in The Silver Surfer, and he says, “If you are truly appreciative of feminine charms, then see what Mephisto can offer.” And he conjured up an image of three of the most beautiful women you could imagine, and he says, “Not one! Not two! But three, fairer by far than any the mind of man could dare imagine!” thinking that this will be what the Surfer accepts and he will forget Shalla-Bal, and therefore Mephisto will have his soul. But of course the Surfer is far too noble to fall for Mephisto’s little schemes. [chuckles] I love the way Buscema drew Mephisto, looking satanic, covered all in red. Oh man, he was a great artist! I figure, if there ever was someone called Satan, he would look just like this! At this point, Stan is asked about the Silver Surfer: Parable graphic novel he did with the French artist known as Moebius. One of my all time favorite stories of The Silver Surfer is one that was drawn by Jean Giraud, better known as Moebius, one of the most famous artists in Europe—and also here, I might add. I was very happy he agreed

And then, in this story, the Surfer really saves the whole world and people are very grateful to him. And people start to almost worship him. They build a religion around him. He knows how wrong that is, and the only way that he can stop this from happening is to pretend to be evil, to pretend not to be worthy, which he does, and it’s a very dramatic ending. Of course, Moebius’ style was totally different from Buscema’s, and it would seem that that would create a problem for me, but it didn’t at all, because I enjoy working with artists who have different styles. The way I work: I just tell them what the story is, or I will write it out in two or three pages, just an outline with no dialogue, just “This is what happens. This is what the characters do. This is the problem, and this is how I want to end it.” And I leave it to the artist to draw it any way he wants to. When Buscema drew The Silver Surfer he drew it one way, which I loved, and I put the dialogue in and that was fine. When Moebius drew The Silver Surfer based on the story I had told him, he drew it in his own style. The characters look a little different, the layouts aren’t the same as Buscema would have done them, but in his own style, he’s as good as Buscema, and in his own style, Buscema is as good as Moebius. So when I got Moebius’ artwork back, it was just as easy and just as inspiring for me to put in the dialogue as it was working with John Buscema. I love working with artists who have different styles. It keeps me on my toes. But it’s never the case of one is more difficult than the other. Because, as long as they do the story the way I described it, I really have no difficulty. Jenna asks Stan if he speak a bit about Fantastic Four #51, titled “This Man, This Monster!”

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

dramatic when I read those stories, and I liked the name, “The Black Panther.” So, I thought, “Okay, that’ll be the hero, now what do I do with him?” It occurred to me I’d set the scene…the stories…in Africa.

A Moebius Trip Artist Jean Giraud (a.k.a. Moebius) in a photo taken a few years ago—and a key panel/page from his and Stan’s 1988 collaborative epic Silver Surfer: Parable. Despite the differences between Moebius’ style and that of Jack Kirby, Giraud is probably the man who best, along with the King, caught the glory and the grandeur that is Galactus. [Page © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

I can deal with that. Is that the one where the character liked The Thing and looks like The Thing…and does something heroic at the end…he kills himself? Stan is assured that, yes, that’s the story… although, he sacrifices himself rather than killing himself, which is what Stan had meant. One of my favorite Fantastic Four stores, and also I might add, one of my favorite titles, was “This Man, This Monster!” It deals with a villain, really, who in some way becomes The Thing; he looks just like The Thing, and he becomes The Thing, and he uses that power for evil purposes. But, in the very end of the story, when the fate of the world is at stake and the Negative Zone is gonna threaten to swallow up all of earth, this villain gives up being The Thing, becomes himself, and is swallowed up by the Negative Zone, where he meets his death. He makes the ultimate sacrifice to save mankind, showing that even somebody who has done bad things is capable of nobility at the final moment. I don’t think I’m explaining this well enough, because I think the story itself was incredibly dramatic and so many people have remembered it, and over the years have told me that it was one of their favorite Fantastic Four stories, which I’m delighted to hear. What can Stan say about The Black Panther, another character introduced in Fantastic Four? I created The Black Panther with Jack Kirby some years ago, and what I wanted to do…I wanted to create the first black super-hero, but I wanted to avoid stereotyping. I thought…see, in doing a super-hero, the first thing you have to think of is, what is a good name for him, and what is a good super-power? I must admit I often resort to animal names like “Spider” Man or Doc “Octopus” and so forth; of course, he’s a villain, but it’s the same thing. I thought of “The Panther,” “The Black Panther.” When I was a kid, I loved stories…I think The Phantom…no, The Phantom had a dog…some character had a black panther, and I thought that was so

But, to avoid stereotyping, he doesn’t live in a regular tribe and so forth; he is the prince of a nation, and the nation is hidden under the ground. It’s a country called Wakanda, and he is one of the greatest scientists in the world and his area; his country is more scientifically advanced than any. When you get to the hidden entrance and go down to Wakanda, it looks like you’re in a scene from a science-fiction movie of the thirtieth century! But, in order not to be discovered by the rest of the world, ’cause he doesn’t want his nation contaminated by today’s civilization, it’s hidden underground, and up above it looks like just thatched villages where nobody would ever suspect what’s really below. And of course, the hero himself, [here he begins speaking mysteriously, almost darkly] The Black Panther, has all the abilities of a giant jungle cat: he moves with the same stealth and power, and can climb trees and so forth, and he wears a black outfit that conceals his identity. The way Jack drew him, and the way Jack envisioned his motions…every panel that Jack drew of The Black Panther where he’s crouched a little bit, you get the feeling of a human who’s imbued with the senses of a jungle beast moving around. [He switches now to a lighter, more animated attitude] Anyway, I was crazy about that character…and he was very popular, and he’s one of the characters I’m most proud of, because he was the first important black super-hero. Yet there was a coincidental problem with the name of that character, wasn’t there? It was a strange coincidence because, at the time I did The Black Panther, there was a political party in the country—mostly black people— and they were called the Black Panthers. And I didn’t think of that at all! It had nothing to do with our character, although a lot of people thought there was some tie-in. And I was really sorry—maybe if I had it to do over again, I’d have given him another name, because I hate that confusion to be caused. But it really had nothing to do with the then-existing Black Panthers. Why did Stan decide that Reed and Sue should have a baby? In trying to be realistic, as we always did—just as I thought it was time for Spider Man to get married, Sue Storm and Reed Richards in The Fantastic Four had been married for quite a while, and I figured the most natural thing in the world would be for them to have a baby. Then it occurred to me we could have a lot of fun with that, because we would assume that if two people with super powers have a baby, the baby might have a super-power. But what super-power would he have? And we could keep the readers guessing for years until the baby grew up. So I decided, we’ll let Sue have a baby. And little Franklin Richards was born. Of course, Sue’s pregnancy took about a year and a half or two years, because comic book time is somewhat different than real-world time. And

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

we wanted to stretch that out as long as we could while we tried to figure out whether she’d have a boy or a girl and what to name it. We finally decided on a boy named Franklin Richards. What can Stan say about another Marvel artist, who came along a bit later—Jim Starlin? There were so many artists who were so good, and so talented and unique—if only there was time to talk about all of them. One of them was Jim Starlin. When he came back from the [Viet Nam] war, he started to draw for us. The first book he did was The Invincible Iron Man. And he was very influenced, I think, by Jack Kirby, by Gil Kane, and by Steranko. And he had his own very magnificent style. And I loved his work—I’m very sorry that I didn’t have a chance, personally, to do more stories with him. But I was one of his fans. He created a character—a villain, I guess you’d call him— named Thanos, which I think is really one of the most memorable characters in the Marvel galaxy. So I think Jim Starlin definitely is worthy of mention here. Next Jenna asks Stan to say a few words about Roy Thomas. Perhaps one of the most important people in my scriptwriting and editorial life was Roy Thomas, who was with me for so many years. He was as invaluable as anybody could be. Roy was both a wonderful writer, a tremendous editor, and one of the most dependable people in the world. Also one of the most intelligent. He had been a schoolteacher who, luckily for us, had a love for comics. The problem with Roy was, he was so good at what he did that I took him for granted, and I sometimes feel I don’t talk about him enough.

Don’t You Know There’s A Warlock Going On?

But I do remember: In The Avengers, Roy decided it was time we got a new character. Roy loved—he was a student, really—of comics. He was an authority on all the old-time comics. He made a study of them, and he knew characters that I had forgotten or had never known. And there was one old Marvel character— well, it was really

Jim Starlin, in a 2009 photo that appears in his recent autobiographical work Jim Starlin: A Life in Words and Pictures—and a commission illustration of his permutation of Warlock, whose series under Starlin became one of Marvel’s more memorable of the 1970s. Thanks to Michael Zeno for the art scan. [Warlock TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

before Marvel—that we had called The Vision. He had gotten trapped between dimensions or something, and was in our world, and Roy wanted to make him a member of The Avengers. And I don’t remember why, but for some reason I wanted him to be an android, rather than an inter-dimensional being. And I asked Roy to make him an android, which I think Roy reluctantly did, but we did introduce The Vision. Roy created the character, and he had him look pretty much the way he did years ago. Strangely enough, or maybe not so strangely, he became one of the most popular characters in The Avengers— this android called The Vision, created by Roy, written by Roy. And for the first time, The Avengers had a character who wasn’t quite human—although I guess maybe Thor wasn’t human either, but The Vision was not human in a different way. And Roy did a wonderful job with him. At this juncture, Jenna recalls something she had meant to ask about The Black Panther—his short-lived name change to The Black Leopard.

One rather odd thing about The Black Panther: Because there was a group called the Black Panthers, and we didn’t really want to make it seem as if were involved or tied in with them in any way, we decided to change his name to The Black Leopard, to avoid any confusion. We did that for a few issues, but I don’t think the readers cared for it—I’m not even sure we cared for it. It didn’t really work. So it ended up, he was The Black Panther again. We had made a valiant try, but it didn’t work. And there is a Black Panther movie being slowly and carefully developed by Marvel right now.

Panther-Pounding These two never-used panels penciled by Jack Kirby for Fantastic Four #52 (July 1966) survive because they appeared on the cover of the program book of John Benson’s New York comics convention of that year. T’Challa’s battle with Wyatt Wingfoot was probably deleted because Stan didn’t want a supporting character having better luck against a foe than the F.F. had had! Thanks to John Benson. [© 2011 Marvel Characters Inc.]

Jenna says that one of the “Mighty Marvel Moments” in the forthcoming book is the KreeSkrull War. As the co-creator of both those interstellar races, does Stan have anything he can say about that? One of the more interesting series that we had that carried on for a while in The Avengers was, as our faithful readers called it, the Kree-Skrull War. We had created an evil race called the Skrulls who could come to Earth and transform themselves to make them look like any of our

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

human characters. And obviously they were very dangerous. There was another alien race called the Kree. They didn’t have that particular power, but that had some very lethal rayguns and war weapons. While we had these two characters [=alien races] who appeared occasionally in different stories, I guess Roy felt—he was writing the [Avengers] series at the time—it would be a good idea to pit them each against each other in the Avengers series. And that’s when they had the Kree-Skrull War, with these two major villainous forces fighting each other. And, of course, The Avengers were in the middle of the whole thing. It was a series of books that are still talked about today. And I might add, some of them were illustrated by another of comicdom’s great artists, Neal Adams, who is also an advertising artist. But he draws strips like a fine illustrator. And he was another artist that we were very proud to use. Stan is asked why, in The Avengers #16, he suddenly changed the line-up of the super-hero group almost entirely, stripping it of its most powerful members. One of the interesting problems we had with the Avengers series was: If I would use a character like Thor, and he’d be in The Avengers and he was here doing whatever they were doing, but in his own series, Thor, he might have been trapped on some planet somewhere by Loki, and Loki was about to kill him. And I felt, when situations like that happened,

Roy And The Boys (And A Gal) Roy Thomas, from a 1973 shoot for Creem magazine—flanked by two of his personal high points at Marvel, in terms of characters he developed. (Above left:) John Buscema penciled, and P. Craig Russell inked, this drawing of The Vision for the cover of FOOM Magazine #12 (Dec. 1975). In 1967 Roy directed John on the design of the android Avenger, but of course The Vision’s visuals were mostly based on Jack Kirby’s original 1940s other-dimensional hero, even if nothing else about the Golden Age character remained. The Vision became the most popular non-solo hero in Roy’s 70-issue run of The Avengers, the most-remembered of his super-hero work at Marvel. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] (Above right:) Stan doesn’t mention it, but of course Roy wrote and edited more material featuring Robert E. Howard’s sword-and-sorcery hero Conan than of any purely Marvel character—and helped make the Cimmerian one of the company’s biggest moneymakers by the latter 1970s, years before the release of the first Schwarzenegger-starring movie. This pen-and-ink illo by John Buscema should suffice to show why, in 1970, he was Roy’s and Stan’s first choice to pencil Conan the Barbarian—although the happy accident that led to that task going to Barry (Windsor-)Smith instead worked out pretty well, too! [Conan TM & © 2011 Conan Properties International LLC—if this is actually Conan. We’ve no way of knowing for certain! It is ain’t Conan, then the illo is © 2011 Estate of John Buscema.]

it took away from the realism that we were trying to inject in our books, because the reader might say, “Well, how can Thor be in New York running around with The Avengers when he’s really trapped on some other planet?” In order to solve that incredible problem, what we would do—I would

“Avengers Re-Assemble!” (Left:) Since the day in The Avengers #16 (March 1965) when Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and The Scarlet Witch replaced Thor, Iron Man, Giant-Man, and The Wasp, nearly every Marvel hero has been a member of that team at one time or another. And that includes, probably, all the stalwarts seen in this jam illustration done for the cover of the program book of the 1999 Heroes Convention in Charlotte, North Carolina. Artists were John Byrne, Joe Quesada, John Romita, Jr., Ron Garney, George Pérez, & Scott Hanna. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

suggest that if a character in his own series of books was involved in something very specific where he couldn’t be in New York at the time, we would not let him be part of The Avengers for that series, but we would throw in another character. So for that reason, the Avengers lineup was always changing. In the Avengers story, we would use heroes that were not definitely supposed to be somewhere else in their own series at that time. It took a lot of thinking and manipulating and researching, but it was also fun, and I think we did it pretty well.

a blood transfusion with his blood, ’cause he knew he was the Hulk! But it was the only way to save her, and somehow he managed to do that, and of course that turned her into the She-Hulk, the only difference being that when she became the She-Hulk, she kept her own intelligence, unlike the Hulk, ’cause I wanted to make her somewhat different. She also became very beautiful and very powerful. Her skin, I believe, became green, and she became a little bit taller, but she wasn’t a monster; she was just an incredibly beautiful Amazonian type of woman. And that was the She-Hulk.

Jenna suggests that, since one of the most popular Marvel heroes in recent years has been Wolverine, it would be good for Stan to say a few words about that mutant.

Jenna inquires about the classic storyline in which Jane Foster gets her chance to join Thor as an Asgardian… but it doesn’t work out. How did Jane blow it by not going to Asgard with them?

When… I believe… let me think— Len Wein did the Wolverine, didn’t he, Roy?… It’s always difficult to know what goes on in the mind of a creative writer, but when one of our top writers, Len Wein, introduced Wolverine in The Incredible Hulk, he made him a Canadian. Which, I later realized was a great idea; we had not had any Canadian heroes. Wolverine, as you know, became one of Marvel’s most popular characters, one of The X-Men’s most popular characters. In fact, Marvel is spinning him off and going to do a Wolverine movie all by himself. So, there we have a Canadian hero, and about time, I might say! Stan is asked how the She-Hulk came about.

The Boys Who Cried Wolverine The late great Dave Cockrum isn’t usually one of those credited as having co-created Wolverine. But, along with the fact that Dave’s version of the mutant helped propel the revived X-Men to new heights in the mid-1970s, he could also lay a claim of sorts to having had a hand in the development of the character. Sometime in 1973-74 he apparently showed Marvel editor-in-chief Roy Thomas a drawing of a creation of his called Wolverine (among sketches of various other concepts). While Roy has no conscious memory of that event, in ’74 he asked writer writer Len Wein to shoehorn a feisty, short-tempered Canadian code-named Wolverine into an issue of The Incredible Hulk—which Len duly did, with pencils by Herb Trimpe and a costume design by John Romita—while Stan was by then Marvel’s publisher. Thus, it seemed fitting that Stan’s response to a question about Wolverine be accompanied by a 1982 Cockrum sketch of two versions of the mutant; it was once sold at a Heritage Comics auction. Logan, we’re told, is sporting the “skull and crossbones” garb he wore in one issue each of The X-Men and Iron Fist—and is seen with his cartoon doppelgänger, the “Fiend-with-No-Name” from another X-Men issue. [Wolverine & Fiend-with-No-Name TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

The Hulk was so popular for a time that some of the business people at Marvel were saying, “Let’s get a feminine Hulk!” I didn’t want to do that; I felt it was too corny. I never liked the idea of Superman and Superboy and Supergirl—I felt that looks too comic book-y. The Hulk is unique, let’s keep him that way. But the other people at Marvel’s business end, whom we took our orders from, they wanted a female Hulk. So I tried to think of a way we could have a female Hulk that would be a little bit believable, and I created a character called the She-Hulk; and when I wrote the story, I had her be a cousin of Bruce Banner, who was the Hulk.

And, as I remember, something happened to her—she was shot, I believe—and she was dying, and unless she had a blood transfusion, she would die. Bruce Banner was with her at the time, and he was a doctor. They were out in some isolated place—there was nowhere where he could get blood for her, except his own. And yet he was reluctant to give her

Roy, through Jenna, reminds Stan, in a sentence or two, of the story he and Jack had done. Yeah, okay… did I talk about Thor previously?... Oh, so I don’t have to talk about how we… I think one of the most interesting situations with Thor—you know he had this girlfriend Jane Foster, a nurse, and he really loved her, wanted to marry her. And when she went up to Asgard with him, and Odin was trying to give her god-like powers and make her a worthy wife for Thor, it was too much for her to handle. It was too overwhelming. She didn’t want it, she was afraid, she couldn’t believe it. It was too fearsome, it was too wild for her. She wanted to go back to her normal life. And Thor realized that, “Well, if that’s what she wants….”

And Odin then sent her back to Earth and took away her memory, so she forgot everything that had happened up in Asgard, and of course Thor then went back to his original love, the goddess Sif. It was a story that is not a typical comic book story, ’cause it involved romance and emotion and somebody who felt “I’m not ready to assume the burden of godhood,” you might say. [chuckles] I was kind of proud of that story, and I think it worked out very well. You might think that the moral is that a normal person shouldn’t aspire to be part of a super-hero or

You Stan, She Hulk! The Savage She-Hulk #1 (Feb. 1980), with script by Stan Lee and pencils by John Buscema, has been reprinted at least five times, according to the Grand Comics Database—including in a b&w Essentials volume. The full art for the cover is by Buscema. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

Coppola’s nephew, and when he got into acting, he didn’t want to cash in on the Coppola name, so he took the name “Cage” from Luke Cage, from Hero for Hire, which I think is kinda nice.

Thor Loser If Jane Foster had passed her test to become a goddess back in Thor #136 (Jan. 1967), she might’ve wound up looking a lot like this—Jack Kirby’s penciled cover for What If #10 (Aug. 1978). For reasons lost to history, Stan had the cover redrawn by John Buscema; fortunately, however, Jack’s penciled version was preserved by David “Hambone” Hamilton. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Jenna asks Stan if there was any particular inspiration for starting out that magazine at that particular time. What was the reason…?... Oh, Shaft, maybe. Damned if I can remember.

become too involved with a superhero; but I don’t think that’s really the thing. I think we were just looking for one dramatic situation, and we felt we found it. Certainly, with Spider-Man, we have Mary Jane, who’s married to a super-hero. and that seems to be okay. I think every case is really different; and with Thor, we wanted to tackle this in a different way. Jenna asks about the birth of Luke Cage in the Hero for Hire comic in 1972. Luke Cage—had he been a convict originally, do you know, Roy? … He was framed, though—he was innocent?... [after Roy confirms this:] One of my favorite characters was Luke Cage. He had a couple of names; at one time the book was called Power Man; at one time it was called Hero for Hire. He was another black hero; I felt we needed more black heroes. Jenna asks Stan if he can rephrase his answer, and perhaps expand on it a bit. Okay…. Another of my favorite characters was Luke Cage, an African-American hero, who at one time had been called Power Man; at another time we called his series Hero for Hire, and it was kind of fun, ’cause he had been a prisoner—he was in jail, but he had been framed, and when he gets out, he decides he’s going to fight all these evil people— but, unlike most super-heroes, he wants to be paid for it, [chuckles] so he became a Hero for Hire. I just like the idea, again, of a black—of an African-American super-hero who had a feeling of realism about him. I think one aside that’s a little bit interesting: the actor Nicolas Cage took his name from Luke Cage; he had been a fan of the book. Nic Cage, of course, was… um, what’s Coppola’s first name?... Pardon me, oh, of course, what happened to me?... Nic Cage was Francis Ford

I’ve been asked why I decided to have another African-American super-hero in 1972, and I think the answer is very simple. I felt that we can’t have all our books with white faces, when 10% of our population, or maybe more than that, is black. It just seemed like the natural, realistic thing to do. In fact today, I think it’s important that we have more Asian and more Latin super-heroes. Next, Stan is asked about the return of The X-Men as a book on the Marvel schedule in 1975, after a half decade of there not being an X-Men title. Had we suspended publication during that time?... Roy, through Jenna, reminds Stan that X-Men had been cancelled by Martin Goodman in 1969, and how the X-Men had been brought back as a result of a conversation in his office between Stan, Roy, and Marvel president Al Landau. Wow, I didn’t know that there was a time where we weren’t publishing The X-Men… wow! I remember Al Landau…I had forgotten him completely! Yeah… Strangely enough, there was a time when The X-Men seemed to have fallen from favor, and Marvel wasn’t publishing it for a few years… I think in the early 1970s… and one

Well, If A Frog Could Become A Thunder God… A Frank Brunner illo of Howard the Duck as Thor. Frank, the original artist of the “Howard” solo series, is currently accepting art commissions for covers, splash panels, or pin-up re-creations, or for new compositions; art can be pencil only, inked, or full color (minimum order is $150). Contact him through his website at www.frankbrunner.net. [Howard the Duck TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

of the executives, again at Marvel’s business department, said, “You know, I think we ought to revive The X-Men, but we should have a lot of them come from different countries, because then the book would probably sell well in whatever countries those X-Men are from!”

best-selling line of comics in the world, and the X-Men movies are among the best-attended movies in the world!... Or maybe I should say the X-Men movies are among the top-grossing movies in the world. Back to an earlier series—Tomb of Dracula….

And, um…hold it a minute…Roy, did you write those?...

Who the hell did that, Roy? Was that Wolfman?...

Roy reminds Stan, through Jenna, that Len Wein and then Chris Claremont wrote the stories, after the series re-launch was conceived. Oh, okay…I got it…. Okay, so in the early ’70s, one of the executives at Marvel said, “You know, if we had more foreign characters, more foreign heroes, in our line of books, those books would probably sell better overseas in those countries that the heroes are from!” And Roy Thomas, having heard that, suggested, “The XMen would be the logical place to do that! We could have mutants from all over the world joining The X-Men!” And we did, and Roy’s idea worked perfectly, because it revived interest in The X-Men, and little by little, The XMen became the best selling series that Marvel had.

Roy says that Gerry Conway scripted the first issue, from a plot Stan and Roy had concocted, though Marv Wolfman later became the series’ main writer. Oh it was? Okay… We were always looking for new ideas for new comics. No matter how many we had, we were always looking—what will be the next big thing? And it occurred to me that Dracula had been popular for decades. Everybody seemed interested in vampires. So, as usual, I went to my trusty editor, Roy Thomas, and said, “Hey, let’s do a book about Dracula.” So we cooked up a plot, we got Gerry Conway to write it, and, bingo!, Dracula was revived.

That’s Power, Man!

Next, Jenna asks about Howard the Duck.

The powerful splash page of Hero for Hire #1 (June 1972), as scripted To me, The X-Men is really one of by Archie Goodwin, penciled by George Tuska, and inked by the top series. It’s one of the most Roy, what book did he appear in Billy Graham. For the first time in U.S. mainstream comic books, an perfectly arranged and organized and first… as a guest character? African-American super-hero had his own mag! Later, Luke Cage put-together series imaginable, because would adapt the name Power Man, earlier the moniker of an Roy relays a smidgin of info about there are so many different mutants, Avengers villain. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.] the Duck’s origins . both good ones and bad ones, that it makes it so much easier to come up That’s right, okay. And that was written by Steve Gerber? We had a with plots. Any issue can feature whichever mutants we think are the most character named Steve—no, stop. interesting at that time, or whichever mutants would fit into a particular story. You simply cannot One really amusing run out of story ideas thing: We had a book called when you have so many Man-Thing that was written characters, each with a by Steve Gerber, who was a different and unique terrific writer. He did a lot super-power…and the of off-beat things. And in proof of the pudding is this book Man-Thing, he that the X-Men line of introduced a little cartoony comics is probably the character called Howard

Don’t Put All Your “X” In One Basket Ever since The X-Men made a cataclysmic comeback in the mid-70s, there’s never been a dearth of hands ready to depict Marvel’s merry mutants, either together or individually. Cases in point: from the program book of the 2011 Heroes Convention in Charlotte, NC (from which Ye Editor returned only a couple of days before typing these words) comes this powerful action shot of Wolverine and Kitty Pryde by David Williams (artist of X-Men: First Class, et al., as well as the cover of A/E #101), as well as an exquisite rendering of Ororo/Storm by Ed McGuinness, who’s drawn Hulk, Superman/Batman, and other mags. [Wolverine, Kitty Pryde, & Storm TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics

the Duck, which spoke like a man, smoked cigars. He was very irascible. Well, little Howard proved so popular in the Man-Thing series that Steve convinced everybody to do a whole book called Howard the Duck.

Ghost To Ghost

Those Howard the Duck books became so popular, that, I forget what year it was, there was an election that year for President, and any numbers of colleges and fraternities had programs where they were wearing pins saying “Howard the Duck for President.” It was a gag, but for a while there, I was afraid he’d get elected. At any rate, finally, Howard was so popular that they made a Hollywood movie out of Howard the Duck. Unfortunately, it didn’t do very well, but it just shows how sometimes the most oddball idea can just keep mushrooming and mushrooming, and you don’t know where you’ll end up. How about the origins of the motorcycle-riding, modern-day Ghost Rider: Who created that, Roy? Um, did Gary Friedrich create the character? Roy says the credits say that Gary “conceived and wrote” the character in his first issue. At that time… no… At one time, Gary Friedrich was one of our more talented writers, and Mike Ploog, who had originally been with Will Eisner, was one of our top artists. Well, they got their heads together with editor Roy Thomas, and they came up with “Ghost Rider.” It’s about a motorcyclist whose head turns to fire. Anyway, it was great, and the artwork was wonderful, and the character became popular. In fact, later on, there was a series of books where The Ghost Rider was one character, then he was another character. And, as with some of our other characters, as with some other characters, Ghost Rider is now about to be a movie starring Nicolas Cage. But he turned out so fanciful and wild, the readers loved him. And he also became one of our most popular heroes.

The motorcycle-riding Ghost Rider—a sketch by co-creator Mike Ploog, done for Michael Zeno. Mike had come into the Marvel office expecting to revamp the Western hero, and soon found himself designing a brand new spectral avenger. [Ghost Rider TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

won’t sell, but you give it to the right combination, and it will. “Doctor Strange” is a good example. After Steve Ditko and I stopped doing the book, many other artists and writers did [it], but probably one of the most successful teams was Steve Englehart, the writer, and Frank Brunner, the artist, who did a number of “Doctor Stranges” that were so illustrative and so mysterious-looking and so dramatic that it ended up with Doctor Strange getting his own magazine again, after he had just been guest-starring in other strips. It just shows that the right artist and the right scriptwriter can do so much to revive and maintain the popularity of a character. Jenna asks a question about the possible relation of Marvel’s 1972 “Ghost Rider” and a certain popular book of the period…. Nobody knows what gives a writer an idea for anything, but one thing a number of people have commented about: About the time “The Ghost Rider” was created by Gary Friedrich, there had been a very popular bestselling book called Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Mainenance, [laughs] and a lot of people wondered if that gave Gary the idea. Gary isn’t here for me to ask him now; I think it’s a safe bet that it may have influenced him a little bit.

Jenna shows Stan a Frank Brunner “Doctor Strange” cover, probably on Marvel Premiere. It’s a good cover. This cover here…um… You know, super-heroes are really funny, in the sense that, so often, it depends who writes them, and who draws them, as to whether they’ll be popular. You’d think if a character is the right idea, then it’ll sell well. You give it to the wrong artist and writer and it

Stan is asked about the process of creating a comic book, especially as it was done during “The Marvel Age of Comics.” You know, one thing that most people, I think, are not aware of is the amount of work and thought and talent that goes into these humble little comic books. The average reader picks one up, reads it, either enjoys it or doesn’t, puts it aside, and that’s that. But these strips are treated like miniature movies. Somebody has to get the idea for the story, then it’s discussed with the artist, the writer, the editor. Then an outline is written, then the artwork begins, and the art director criticizes the artwork and says, “Well, I think that panel should be a little more exciting,” or “We should show more of a close-up here…” …whatever. A lot of work goes into analyzing the artwork. Then, the script is gone over by the editor, who says, “Well, I think that remark is out of character,” “The

Casting Spells ’Til He’s Blue In The Face If this Frank Brunner drawing of the azure-faced, slightly more super-heroic Doctor Strange from the Thomas/Colan days of the late 1960s seems a bit at odds with the work Frank did on the Mystic Master in the ’70s—well, maybe it’s because this is actually a sample page of sorts, done a year or so before Brunner drew “Doctor Strange” in Marvel Premiere. It was published in the program book of the Phil Seuling’s 1972 New York Comic Art Convention. Thanks to the Golden Age Comic Book Stories website. [Dr. Strange TM & © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Interview!

character might not say that,” or “Oh, this is great! I like this scene so much, let’s stretch it to two or three scenes!” Finally, the strip is drawn and it’s written, and then it’s colored, and the coloring is so important, and then people will say, “I think that should be a little lighter,” or “darker,” or “We need more red there,” or “green” or whatever. And the lettering is important, because if it’s not legible, it’s no good. Even the way the balloons are placed—I know when I was doing my own stories, I would place the balloons myself, and I would gear my writing so that if there was a really exciting-looking panel, I would not put much dialogue there because I didn’t want anything to take away from the artwork. But, if there were a few panels that were less interesting, that didn’t have much going on, I would put a lot of dialog in those panels just to give the reader some reason to linger over them. So there is so much more thought that goes into a comic book, I suspect, than the reader ever thinks of, or imagines. Stan is asked about today’s comics— and, as A/E transcriber Brian K. Morris noted: “This track has a lot of excited and fast talk!” I think comics today are as good as ever…some may be better…some not as good. It’s a big field and there are many variables, but I think readers will always love comics because they’re such a great way to tell a story! With pictures and with words! I met Steven Spielberg one time…a long time ago…and I remember he said to me, “You know, Stan, you and I do pretty much the same thing, except my pictures move.” [laughs] And it’s really true! A comic strip is a movie where the pictures don’t move! Today, unfortunately, it’s harder to sell comics for two reasons. One reason: there are fewer stores that carry them. Years ago, you could buy comics in any place that sold magazines; it also had comic books. Today, you almost have to find a comic book store or a bookstore that sells graphic novels, where they’re having more and more of that type of publication. The second reason is: There is so much more competition for the reader’s time and interest. Today, you have the computer…people spend hours at their computers. You have video games…they spend hours at video games. There’s television, there’s even the phone. Cell phones keep people busy so long! There’s so much more going on. In the early days

of comics, you either read a comic book or went to a movie and that was about it…today, there are many things competing for young people, and older people’s attention. So, it’s a tougher sell today, but people like comics. I think they will always like them; I think they will always be around.

The Men—And The Myths THE MEN: Stan Lee (on left) and Jack Kirby at a 1966 meeting of the National Cartoonists Society—one of the few times these two titans were photographed together. Pic taken by Jackie Estrada. As for getting one of Steve Ditko with them, as well— fuhgiddaboudit! THE MYTHS: Kirby’s power-packed cover for the first Marvelmania Club Catalog (circa 1969), which features many of the classic heroes on which Stan and Jack did some of the greatest work in the history of comic books. Comics historian (and A/E’s new layout guru) Jon B. Cooke feels Kirby may have inked the cover as well as penciled it. Thanks to Barry Pearl for good scans of both these images. [Catalog cover © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc

The most important thing is: Hollywood has discovered the comic book—because the comic book is like a visual presentation of what a movie could be, and it’s so easy for a producer to read a comic and to say, “Oh boy! This would make a great movie! I can see the whole thing laid out! Okay, I’m gonna do it!” And that’s what they’re doing with so many Marvel characters…The X-Men, The Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Blade, and upcoming Captain America and Nick Fury II, The Ghost Rider, and Iron Man— and goes on and on! So, comics will always be here, and I think comics will always prove to be the inspiration for movies and TV series and whatever else comes along. Jenna announces that that completes the questions she has for Stan. WOW! And that was that. If you have a copy of Sterling’s book Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Universe, you know that only about 45 minutes of the above several hours’ worth of recordings made it into the finished volume’s audio tracks… and so, with Stan’s gracious permission (the interview, becker&mayer! confirms, is copyright 2011 by Stan), we figured that printing it in this issue marking the 50th anniversary of The Fantastic Four #1 would be the perfect way to celebrate the year that comics truly began to change…. Thanks to Jenna Land Free, Shayna Ian, and Amy Wideman for their help with ascertaining the permission to print this interview. For a full listing of which 50 great Marvel moments made it into Stan Lee’s Amazing Marvel Universe, you’ll have to seek out a copy of the book itself. We think you’ll find it well worth the effort…! Why no “Stan Lee Checklist” at this point, you ask? Are you outta your gourd? We’re lucky to have squeezed in the entire recording session, without trying to shoehorn in Stan’s full credits, as well! Maybe next time….

“I Had A Liking For The Comic Magazine Business” A Catch-As-Catch-Can Conversation With AL SULMAN, “Personal Associate of Stan Lee” Conducted by Jim Amash

Transcribed by Brian K. Morris

lbert Sulman has been discussed any number of times in A/E interviews with other Timely Comics staffers and freelancers, not to mention those who worked for him at Ace Publications. An editor and writer for comics and magazines—the latter chiefly at Martin Goodman’s Magazine Management—Al had a long career in publishing, but not much was known about him. Former Marvelites Sol Brodsky, Mike Esposito, John Romita, Stan Goldberg, and Roy Thomas (and later Al Milgrom) used to play poker with Al during the ’60s and ’70s, but they never became close friends with him. Apparently, Al built a wall between him and most others—a wall I tried to penetrate with small success. I finally did get him to laugh a few times, but did not succeed in getting him to send a photo. At first, Al wasn’t interested in granting me an interview, but I managed to persuade him to talk to me; so, figuring that I’d probably have only one shot at it, I mostly asked him basic questions. He enjoyed talking to me enough that he agreed to another short session. We spoke a couple of times, and right as I was breaking a hole in the wall, Al’s health (which was not good) precluded further discussion, resulting in an uncompleted interview. I’ve been unable to re-establish contact with Al for over a year now, but hope he is alive and well somewhere. Many unasked questions will remain unanswered, I’m sorry to say, but at least we have this peek behind the Sulman curtain. Thanks to Steven Rowe for helping me find Al Sulman. This interview was conducted in 2009. —Jim.

Blonde Ambition (Top left:) Photos of Al Sulman are virtually unobtainable—but fortunately this skillful caricature of him, drawn and signed by fellow bullpenner/future Madman Dave Berg, appeared in Stan Lee’s 1947 mini-tome Secrets behind the Comics, a 700-copy limited hardcover second edition of which was published by Marvel in 1994. A/E’s editor kicks himself every time he recalls how he played poker with Al, all those years, and never asked him what Stan might’ve meant by calling him a “personal associate” of his! Roy recently did e-mail Stan on the point—but, surprise, surprise, Stan had no memory of ever using the term. (Incidentally, although Stan refers to him in the book as “Alan” Sulman, the editor/writer’s first name was actually “Albert.”) [© 2011 Stan Lee.] The book reproduced both the full typed script (left) and the black-&-white Syd Shores artwork of the 4-page yarn “I Hate Me!” from Blonde Phantom #15 (Fall 1947), starring the gorgeous gang-buster Al had co-created. Seen above right from Secrets is the tale’s first page, in color from an art scan provided by Betty Dobson. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

“I Had A Liking For The Comic Magazine Business”

liking for the comic magazine business, you know.

“My Brother Asked Me To Help Him With The Scripts”

JA: When you wrote for your brother on those DC comic stories, did DC pay you or did he pay you? Who had the account?

JIM AMASH: When were you born, and how did you break into comics? AL SULMAN: I was born in March 19, 1918. So I’m now 91 years old. My older brother Joseph was a cartoon artist, and he worked for Detective Comics. So, after I graduated from college, he got me in the business of writing scripts for him on a freelance basis. He did do some work for Timely Comics—also on a freelance basis, of course. His cartoon style was pretty much like Al Capp’s, who did Li’l Abner. He drew several scripts for Timely, like “Eustace Hayseed,” which looked a lot like Li’l Abner. He mainly drew humor features. He was not an artist—he was a cartoonist. But he was a very, very good cartoonist. He was born in 1911.

SULMAN: My brother paid me. [DC] had a strip called “Zatara the [Master] Magician,” and a guy named Fred Guardineer was the artist. But the time came when he didn’t want to draw it anymore, so the editor at DC turned it over to my brother, and he began to draw the strip; but he had to imitate Fred Guardineer’s drawing style, because the character had to look [the same], and it worked out fine. I wrote a few “Zatara” scripts, and that got me interested in writing comic scripts. But Joe and I didn’t do “Zatara” for very long. JA: You wrote “Eustace Hayseed” for Timely, and “Zatara” for DC. For Quality Comics, your brother drew something called “Woopy.” Did you write that for him?

I graduated from Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut, in 1940. I majored in English literature and American literature. I minored in European history and American history. [After graduation], I went to New York looking for a job. I applied at Timely for a staff job as a story or script editor, and told them that I’d written a couple of strips for Detective Comics [National/DC]. Stan Lee was the art director; he hired me as a staff script editor and as a story editor to buy from freelance writers in 1941. At that time, Timely was located on West 42nd Street. That’s how it started.

SULMAN: No. I did not write everything that he drew. JA: He drew three other features. One was “Socko Strong,” for DC. Did you write that? SULMAN: Yes, I did. JA: “Caveman Curly.” SULMAN: “Caveman Curly” sounds familiar. I think I may have written a few scripts on that one, too. But “Socko Strong,” I definitely remember. JA: And the other one is “Biff Bronson.”

Simon and Kirby must have left the company before I joined them, because I don’t remember meeting them. Timely must have moved to the Empire State Building while I was in the military service. I was drafted in February of 1942.

SULMAN: Yes, I wrote that one, too. JA: Basically, your brother was packaging these features for DC. You weren’t going into the offices, were you?

JA: Since you hadn’t gone to college to be a comic book writer—

SULMAN: No, I did not go to the DC office. I gave my brother an outline which he submitted it to the editor at DC, whom I believe was Whitney Ellsworth. [NOTE: “Biff Bronson” with a byline for both brothers appeared in All Star Comics #1, as well as in issues of More Fun Comics, so the former work must’ve been done for All-American editor Shelly Mayer. —Jim.] When it was it was okayed, I wrote the scripts. Joe showed

SULMAN: Oh, no, no, no. JA: —what did you have in mind to do with yourself before comics came about? SULMAN: I wanted to be a novelist and a short story writer, but my brother asked me to help him with the scripts, and I had a

Thar’s Gold In Them Thar Hillbillies! The Sulman brothers, Al (writer) and Joseph (artist), seem to have been typecast for a time as the writer-&-artist team called when a company needed a knockoff of Al Capp’s wildly popular daily comic strip Li’l Abner—even though we couldn’t come up with any definite Sulman art and/or story in that area: (Top:) This “Woopy of Shoot’n Creek” splash page is from an uncertain Quality Comics issue, in a story bylined not by Joseph Sulman but by Art Gates (with the scripter totally unguessed at). The hillbilly hero appeared in Hit Comics #26-29 and Uncle Sam Quarterly #6 & #8 in 1943. Thanks to Jim Ludwig. [© 2011 the respective copyright holders.] (Above:) Dr. Michael J. Vassallo feels this “Eustace Hayseed” yarn from Krazy Komics #1 (Aug. 1948)—with its super-heavy Capp influence—is most likely the work of Joseph Sulman, so it’s quite possible that his brother wrote it. It was some of Joe’s last work in comics. Thanks also to Steven Rowe for pointing us the way. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

A Catch-As-Catch-Can Conversation With Al Sulman, “Personal Associate of Stan Lee”

me how many pages he needed, a four-page script or a five-page script.

The Brand New 1940 Mottle Joseph Sulman became the first artist to succeed creator Fred Guardineer on the “Zatara” strip the latter had created—though whether or not his brother Al wrote this particular script for Action Comics #30 (Nov. 1940) is unknown. Thanks to Mark Muller. [© 2011 DC Comics.]

JA: Did Joseph ink these features as well as pencil them? SULMAN: Yes. He did not letter them. Someone in the office lettered them. JA: Did he serve in World War II?

me from Yale. We were all very well educated.

SULMAN: No. He worked for a company that built submarines.

JA: Were your parents?

JA: His comic book career was not a very long one. What he did after his comic book days?

SULMAN: No, they were immigrants from Eastern Europe. My father came from Lithuania, and my mother from Russia.

SULMAN: He had a job with the government. It had something to do with delinquent students, like a probation officer, things like that. And that’s what he did the last ten years of his life.

JA: I had wondered about your last name, because I looked “Sulman” up on the Internet, and it’s both an Arab name and a Jewish name. SULMAN: Well, my father’s original name was not “Sulman,” it was “Shulman,” with an “h.” When he came to America, he dropped the “h” and became “Sulman.” So I and my two brothers are Sulmans, not Shulmans. But we are Jewish, yes.

JA: He didn’t keep his art career going, did he? SULMAN: No, he did not. I’ll tell you what he did. In our home town newspaper—New London, Connecticut—he used to draw editorial—I don’t know if I’d call them “cartoons,” but editorials for the local newspaper, for the editorial page. That was after [his comic book days]. He did not do that for a long time. Eventually, he retired down to Florida. I had two older brothers; they’re both gone now. I had a still-older brother who was a doctor for 50 years in New London. He died ten years ago.

As a matter of fact, during the war when I was with the Air Force in North Africa, I picked up a few Arabic expressions from the local population, so I do speak a little Arabic. I do speak French, though. When I graduated from high school, I was [at the top of] my class, and I also won the French Prize. I’m very good at picking up languages.

“I Just Had To Buy The Scripts”

JA: I take it you didn’t see combat in the service.

JA: Since you’ve read my interviews, you have an idea of what I’m looking for, because a lot of people we talk about were never interviewed, and they’re gone now. I have to rely on people like you to tell me about them, so their biography won’t fade away. SULMAN: Yeah. Well, I can’t say that my memory is very good now at my age. JA: I’m grateful for whatever you can give me. First I’d like to know a little bit more about your brother Joseph. What kind of person was he? SULMAN: He was a very good brother, and he graduated from Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island. And my doctor brother graduated eight years before

Come Out Of The Cave, Man Al says he “may have written” a few scripts of “Caveman Curly,” which was likewise illustrated by his big brother Joseph. This splash page from All Funny Comics #14 (Nov.-Dec. 1946) was provided by Michael T. Gilbert. [© 2011 DC Comics.]

SULMAN: No. I was not a member of a crew. I was in Squadron Intelligence, in a bomber squadron. We had B-25s, medium bombers, but I was in the Intelligence office, gathering intelligence from information where our bombers should drop their bombs. We got information from various sources, so we bombed bridges and ammunition dumps and things like that. We started in Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia, and then we moved to the island of Corsica, in the Mediterranean. Our final airport was on the east coast of Italy, just south of Venice. I was in the military for 3½ years, and overseas two years and seven months. I was a staff sergeant in the Intelligence Office of this bomber squadron. Not a sergeant, but one higher.

“I Had A Liking For The Comic Magazine Business”

Socko! Biff! (And Other Living Sound Effects) Joseph Sulman apparently drew early “Socko Strong” stories under the pseudonym “Koppy,” as per the page at top left from Adventure Comics #40 (July 1939)—but by #54 (Sept. 1940), top right, he was using his real name, and had been joined by his also-bylined brother. The Sulman siblings likewise teamed up on the “Biff Bronson” series in More Fun Comics, including the specimen at lower left from #54 (April 1940)— and, at lower right, his appearance in All-Star Comics (#1, Summer 1940). The fact that “The Spectre” and “Biff Bronson” were the two features from More Fun included in that issue shows that the latter was also a considered a strong series at the time. And Roy T. could kick himself a second time this issue for never thinking to ask Al to autograph his bound volumes of All-Star! First three scans on this page thanks to Jim Ludwig, the fourth thanks to Bruce Mason. [© 2011 DC Comics.]

A Catch-As-Catch-Can Conversation With Al Sulman, “Personal Associate of Stan Lee”

JA: Did you do any writing for comics while in the service? SULMAN: No, not at all. JA: I know Vince Fago took over for Stan Lee.

follow. [NOTE: Al apparently means that he did not do art breakdowns for the artists, but wrote the scripts in such a way that the artist knew what happened in each panel on the page. —Jim.]

SULMAN: Exactly. Vince Fago took over when Stan was drafted, and of course, when Stan returned from the military service when the war ended, Vince went freelance. I don’t remember much about him at all. I didn’t deal with him.

JA: Did you write for Timely before and after your military service? SULMAN: I would say I wrote them after I returned from military service. [NOTE: The scripts he wrote for his brother Joe at Timely were before his time in the service. If he, as I suspect, based on our conversations, did write anything else for Timely in the pre-WWII days, it must have been minimal.—Jim.]

JA: Did you ever edit books yourself totally? SULMAN: No, I did not. I was strictly on scripts, buying scripts. JA: I’ve seen you listed as being the editor of Captain America. SULMAN: No, I was not the editor. Stan Lee was in charge of everything, and I just had to buy the scripts. [NOTE: Al’s answer might be construed as saying that he was script editor of Captain America. See p. 47. —Jim.] JA: How much power/leeway did Stan give you in buying the scripts? SULMAN: A freelance writer had to give me an outline, like a one-page outline, of his story idea, and then I turned it in to Stan. If Stan approved the story idea, I’d follow through in giving the assignment to that freelance writer, and I’d edit the script. I made small changes that I thought would make a better script. JA: Did you ever co-plot with your writers? SULMAN: No, I did not. However, I did write some scripts myself on a freelance basis, to make some extra money. I created a new character. “Wonder Woman” was popular, so Stan thought we should have a heroine, too. So I created a character called “The Blonde Phantom,” and I wrote those strips myself. JA: You know they brought her back a few years ago. SULMAN: But I got no compensation in later life, once I left the company.

JA: I’ve heard that you also worked on some of their non-comic magazines. SULMAN: Magazines that were not comic books? No, I don’t think so. [My work] was strictly in the comic books. Each magazine had a two-page fiction story. I think it was a Postal regulation. I wrote quite a few of the 1500-word, two-page stories to make a little extra money. Some of them were mystery and horror stories. JA: Did you have your own office, or did you share an office with people? SULMAN: I did share an office with other people, but actually, there was just one other person in my office. I don’t remember who I shared the office with. The staff artists had a much bigger room of their own. I worked there off and on from 1941 to 1958. Then something happened to the comic book business. About 30 people were let go, including staff artists and some letterers, and me. JA: That was around 1958, because Martin Goodman lost his distributor. SULMAN: Yes, they switched from one magazine distributor to another one, which was probably a bad move, because the new distributors didn’t know how to handle the distribution of the comic books, so sales went way down. That’s why he had to let some people go.

JA: Were there any other characters you created? SULMAN: No, just “The Blonde Phantom.” I wrote a few “Sub-Mariner” and “Captain America” stories. I did not write “The Human Torch.” I wrote my freelance scripts at home, not in the office. I wrote full scripts, and sometimes broke down the stories into panels for the artist to

This Year’s Blonde Syd Shores drew the cover of All Select Comics #11 (Fall 1946), the issue that introduced “Blonde Phantom,” written and co-created by Al Sulman. The evening-gowned mystery woman instantly knocked Captain America, Human Torch, and Sub-Mariner off the All Select covers and out of the interiors—though she shared space therein with the super-heroic “Miss America.” The Dave Berg caricature directly above of longtime “Captain America” artist Shores is also from Secrets behind the Comics. [Cover © 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.; caricature © 2011 Stan Lee.]

“I Had A Liking For The Comic Magazine Business”

“Blonde” On “Blonde” “Blonde Phantom” started right off by starring in no less than two stories in All Select #11. The Grand Comics Database credits the art on the first (seen at left) entirely to Syd Shores, the second to Shores as inked by Ed Winiarski. The GCD also credits the script (apparently incorrectly) to Stan Lee—but then, writer credits in comics are generally much harder to ascertain than are artist credits. With #12, the mag’s title was changed to Blonde Phantom. Thanks to Bruce Mason & Jim Ludwig, respectively. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

“Ace Magazines…Wanted To Get Into The Comic Book Business” JA: What did you do when that happened? SULMAN: There was an advertisement in, I guess it was The New York Times, for Ace Magazines, who put out pulp magazines, but they wanted to get into the comic book business, also. So they advertised for a story and script editor, and I applied for it and I got the job because of my experience with Timely Comics. They figured I could handle the job, and I did. I worked a few years for them, until things went sour in the comic book business, so much so that Ace gave up publishing comics. [NOTE: Apparently, Al was let go twice, by two comics companies, because his editorial stint at Ace began in 1950, and, according to artist Lou Cameron, Al wasn’t there very long, which means Al left Ace for another reason besides the one he remembered, since Ace published for approximately three years after he left the company. Al went back to Timely and stayed until 1958 in the comics division. —Jim.]

JA: Ace was owned by A.A. Wynn. SULMAN: Yes, Aaron A. Wynn. [His wife Rose] edited Secrets, which was like True Confessions, a women’s magazine. JA: So your job there was the same there as it was at Timely, right? SULMAN: Actually, I was both a script editor and an art director. I assigned the scripts to artists. I did what Stan Lee used to do. I would ask the freelance writers to give me an outline of their story idea, and when I okayed it, they would write the scripts. JA: Did you prefer doing that, to just being a script editor? SULMAN: Yes, I did. I felt I was giving some good cartoonists some work. You know, [helping them] earn a living. JA: How often would you reject a story outline? SULMAN: I would maybe suggest some changes, but I never rejected a story outline.

A Catch-As-Catch-Can Conversation With Al Sulman, “Personal Associate of Stan Lee”

those guys very well, very well. They were very nice guys, very friendly, and they liked to hold conversations with me. But that’s about all. We were not really close at all.

“[Martin Goodman] Rehired Me Right Away” JA: [Backing up to your Timely days], when you came back from military service, you went right back to work there. SULMAN: Yes, I had learned that they were in the Empire State Building, on the 14th floor, so I went up and I spoke with Martin Goodman. At that time, there was a law that, when men returned from military service, their old jobs would still be open for them. And sure enough, he rehired me right away as a script editor. He was a very good boss, no problems. I did not have much contact with him, no. JA: What was it like to work for Stan Lee? SULMAN: Oh, he was okay. He was not “bossy.” He was an excellent editor, and gave us plenty of room to do our jobs. I’ll have to say that I got along very well with him. [I’d meet with him] five days a week in the office. In fact, my office was very close to his office. We could see each other. I was like in the hallway, outside of his office. He had a very nice office of his own, of course. He was very important to the magazines. JA: For a long time, Martin Goodman—and Stan Lee— were buying stories from Lloyd Jacquet’s comics shop, Funnies, Inc. Do you remember anything about that? “The Sub-Mariner” and “The Human Torch” were actually created in the Lloyd Jacquet Funnies, Inc., shop for Martin Goodman. SULMAN: No, I didn’t know any of that. JA: And Carl Burgos created “The Human Torch.” SULMAN: Oh, did he? Carl Burgos used to draw “The Human Torch.” JA: And Bill Everett was the creator of “Sub-Mariner.” SULMAN: I remember both of

JA: There was another guy—I guess he worked in the production department. His name was Gary Keller.

A Man’s Reach Should Exceed His Grasp… In conjunction with this issue’s Stan Lee mega-interview, we printed the perhapsfanciful interpretation from Secrets behind the Comics of how pulp-mag publisher Martin Goodman decided to launch Timely Comics in 1939. Here, likewise from that book, are the Stan Lee/Ken Bald panels in which Goodman decided in 1940 that just publishing Marvel Mystery Comics, Human Torch, Sub-Mariner, and Mystic Comics wasn’t doing enough for the defense effort. [© 2011 Stan Lee.]

SULMAN: I didn’t [have much contact with him]. I think he was in charge of the letterers. He used to assign artwork to certain letterers to ink and letter. The artists would put in the lettering in pencil, of course, and the letterers would ink it over. And Gary sort of supervised that. JA: I’d like to ask you about a couple of writers from your Timely days, starting with Ray Cummings. SULMAN: Ray Cummings used to write scripts for me; he wrote some good mystery stories. He must have been about 60 years old, and was a good writer. I remember Ed Jurist, an excellent writer. He was a veteran of the Second World

Carrying A Torch The identity of the scripter of this lead tale from The Human Torch #33 (Nov. 1948) is uncertain. However, Al Sulman says that, when Stan Lee or one of his story editors asked a writer to scribe this particular tale, it would’ve been known up front for which Timely mag it was intended—either Human Torch or Marvel Mystery Comics (not for Captain America or Sun Girl, even though those two stalwarts also appeared therein). The Grand Comics Database identifies the penciler as Mike Sekowsky, but is uncertain about the inker. Incidentally, sharp eyes will spot that Dr. Jefferson’s balloon in panel 1 about things having returned to normal on Earth is a late editorial addition, in a different lettering style from the rest of the story—so maybe that’s Al Sulman dialogue! [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

“I Had A Liking For The Comic Magazine Business”

Marvels At left above is the picture side of an early-1940s Human Torch postcard which utilized a Carl Burgos figure that had appeared on the back cover of a comic book; at right is the splash page of artist (and quite probably writer) Bill Everett’s second yarn in Sub-Mariner #32 (June 1949). In that issue, which became the last gasp of the original series, an attempt was made to jumpstart Prince Namor’s sinking career by spotlighting first a re-telling of his 1939 origin, and then the tale of his very first attack on New York City, based on the first two issues of Marvel (Mystery) Comics. Thanks to Shaun Clancy for the former, and to Vern Yu for the latter. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

From The Human Torch #2 (Fall 1940, actually the first issue), as reprinted in the hardcover Marvel Masterworks: The Golden Age Human Torch, Vol. 1. Art probably by Burgos. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

War. In fact, I think he was a prisoner of war in Germany. I think his plane was shot down, but he parachuted out and became a prisoner of war. He was kind of a nervous guy as a result.

assignment. And “Captain America” is not just in Captain America Comics, he’s also in All Winners, he’s in U.S.A., he’s in several different titles. How did you keep track of all that?

Ernie Hart used to write Westerns. Ernie Hart lived in New Haven, CT, and used to commute to New York and come to the office with his scripts.

SULMAN: I did not keep track of it. That was not my job. My job was to get the scripts and edit them.

Don Rico was one of our writers, too. He also lived out of town, and used to commute to New York. He was a very good writer who wrote crime stories. JA: As far as the writers were concerned, I’d imagine there were some writers that had “Captain America,” like Ray Cummings, as a regular

JA: Let’s say Stan Lee picks Ray Cummings—this is a “ferinstance”—and says to him, “I want you to write a 12-page ‘Captain America’ for All Winners.” When Cummings brought the script in to you, you would know what book it was for, right? SULMAN: Yes, I guess would. Not that I can remember much about that right now.

A Catch-As-Catch-Can Conversation With Al Sulman, “Personal Associate of Stan Lee”

JA: You were just doing the editorial. You weren’t part of the trafficking of the scripts and the features at all, then.

along with everybody else? SULMAN: She got along with everybody fairly well. She married Bill Woolfolk. Bill Woolfolk was a good writer. That’s about all I can say. [I didn’t deal with him.]

SULMAN: No. Stan would tell me how many pages the scripts should be: four pages, five pages, six pages, depending on how many stories we needed to fill an issue.

JA: There was a staff writer named Irv Tierman, who may have done some editorial work. What I mainly know about him is that he did some of the humor and teenage books, and then he committed suicide.

JA: Let’s say you had a writer who, for one reason or another, wasn’t working out. Maybe Stan or you didn’t like his stories. Would you and Stan discuss that? SULMAN: No, we never did. That doesn’t mean that Stan didn’t reject some of these synopses, you know. JA: But you clearly must have felt that some writers were better than others. SULMAN: Of course, of course.

Surrender Dorothy Dorothy Roubicek Woolfolk and second husband (and comics writer) Bill Woolfolk, in 1955. BW wrote for Timely as well as for numerous other companies. Photo courtesy of Dorothy’s son Donald Woolfolk.

JA: And I had wondered if Stan would ever ask your input on certain writers or things like that. SULMAN: Well, no. He was in charge of the writers like Ernie Hart and Don Rico. I just edited the scripts when they came in, when they needed polishing up. Some of the dialogue was not too good, and I would correct it.

“I Liked ‘Sub-Mariner’”

SULMAN: Oh, yes. Dorothy was working there [as Dorothy Rubichek] with Vince Fago when I went back to work after the war. But she didn’t get along with Stan. When Stan returned from the military, I guess he resented the fact that she was a woman. Once Vince Fago left, Stan decided to get rid of Dorothy. I remember he had an argument with her once, something about the scripts she was working on. I guess she couldn’t take his bawling-out, so she quit.

SULMAN: Yes. When I had a long vacation—I went to Paris—I asked Leon to take my place temporarily. So he did what I was doing for a few weeks, until I came back. Otherwise, he did freelance writing for us. He was a good writer. JA: He also was Al Jaffee’s assistant editor on the humor books. Leon’s wife Marjorie told me she wrote some two-pagers for you.

JA: Another editor was Jim Miele. [NOTE: For more on Jim Miele, see A/E #103—though not about his Timely career.] SULMAN: Jim Miele, yes. I didn’t actually deal with him. I did work with him, but he was a close friend of Stan’s. He was very competent, very, very good. I was not [his script editor].

JA: I’ve heard that she was sometimes easy to get along with and sometimes difficult. She had a forceful personality.

SULMAN: You mean at Timely Comics? No, no, just for Stan.

SULMAN: Gerta was on staff. She kept records of who was drawing what, and when it had to be finished… when it was time for publication. We knew when an issue had to be printed, and she kept track of who was drawing what, and made sure that they finished on time. She was an immigrant from Germany and spoke with a German accent. She was not a young woman, but she was a nice person.

JA: Do you remember what she edited? I understand it may have been super-heroes. SULMAN: I think she worked a lot with— oh, what would you call it? I can’t think of the words now. Not the adventure books so much as—

JA: Stan notwithstanding, how did she get

JA: Were you always Stan’s script editor? Were you script editor for any other editors?

JA: There was another lady there named Gerta Gattel.

SULMAN: Yes, she did. I knew her a little bit. I didn’t work with her. We had separate titles, separate characters, separate books to edit. She was an editor, but a story editor.

SULMAN: No. At my age, words skip me. I can’t think of them. Cartoon… more cartoony than adventure. In fact, I remember she also wrote some adventure stories freelance, and made some extra money.

JA: Leon Lazarus was an assistant editor. [NOTE: See his interview in A/E #90.]

SULMAN: Yes. As I said, I wrote some of them, and I bought some of them.

JA: I want to throw a couple of names at you, because I know they had been editors. One of them was Dorothy Woolfolk.

JA: Anthology books?

SULMAN: The name is vaguely familiar, but I don’t think I ever came into contact with him. I certainly did not remember [his suicide].

Iron Gerda After Timely all but went out of business in 1957-58, production scheduler Gerda Gattel moved over to National/DC, where she became an invaluable proofreader for years. Here, according to a caption in Amazing World of DC Comics #7 (July-Aug. 1975), she is “reunited” with Superman editor Mort Weisinger. Thanks to Mike Catron and Johnny Lowe.

JA: Don Rico was an editor for a while. Do you remember that? SULMAN: No, I don’t. It may have been after my time. JA: Who else wrote “Captain America” and “Sub-Mariner” and “The Human Torch”? Do you remember any of those writers?

“I Had A Liking For The Comic Magazine Business”

JA: Did you have a favorite?

SULMAN: Hank Chapman used to write scripts. After I left [in 1950], Hank Chapman became a staff editor, but I don’t remember what features he worked with.

SULMAN: Well, I liked “SubMariner.” He was called Prince Namor, and because he had lungs and gills, he was able to live in water as well as on land.

JA: I heard that, in 1949, Martin Goodman found a whole bunch of artwork in a closet that Stan Lee had inventoried. Goodman was upset, and told Stan to get rid of the Bullpen until they used up the inventory. Did you ever hear that story?

JA: But your contact with the artists was pretty minimal? SULMAN: I would say it was minimal, because Stan was the art director, and he was in charge of the artwork.

SULMAN: [chuckles] No, I never heard about that at all.

JA: I know Syd Shores used to have some charge of the staff artists.

JA: Did you associate with Martin Goodman very much?

SULMAN: Syd Shores was a staff artist who he drew “Captain America.” He really was a great artist. We used to get involved in poker games once a week at his apartment, or some other guy’s apartment.

SULMAN: Not at all. He had a front office, and I was in the back office. I never encountered him very much. JA: Did you deal very much with Robbie Solomon?

“Anyone Who [Could Write For Comics]…Could Write Full-Length Novels”

SULMAN: No, he was in the circulation department. Robbie Solomon, I think, was married to one of Martin Goodman’s sisters, but I did not associate with him, either. Solomon was Stan Lee’s uncle. I thought he was a very nice man; he was friendly. In fact, sometimes I was in a poker game with Robbie and some other officials of the company. I don’t know why they invited me, but they did. JA: Well, you were in editorial. I know that some of the freelancers did not like him at all. SULMAN: Well, he may have been kind of bossy, but not with me.

JA: Who was the good poker player? Were you good? SULMAN: No, not good at all. [mutual chuckling] But I enjoyed getting together once a week with all the guys.

Namor Gets Nasty The second page of the Bill Everett tale from the 1948 Sub-Mariner #32 whose splash was seen a couple of pages back. A bit of the old viciousness and anti-humanity stance of Namor was restored in this issue, but with #33 the title of the mag was changed to Amazing Mysteries and there were no amphibians in sight—only elements of early horror. Thanks to Vern Yu. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

JA: Who would usually participate in those poker matches? There was Mike Sekowsky…. SULMAN: Mike Sekowsky, Vince Alascia, Lin Streeter, Ed Winiarski. JA: And there was Chris Rule, who

JA: Some people thought he was a spy for Martin Goodman.

they say looked like Santa Claus.

SULMAN: A spy? I don’t know about that. He was involved in the business and circulation operation of the company.

SULMAN: He might have, but I never thought so. He was an elderly guy, but an excellent cartoonist. I remember Mario Aquaviva. He was a letterer. I didn’t get to know him. [Vince Alascia] was kind of nervous. He was a nice guy, but I remember he wanted to buy a house for his family, but he wasn’t sure if he could afford it, so he asked Mr. Goodman, “Is this job safe?” Mr. Goodman said, “Well, I can’t predict what might happen to the business in the future, so I can’t say go ahead and buy a house.”

JA: Did you have much contact with Frank Torpey? SULMAN: Frank Torpey was the man who talked Martin Goodman into publishing comic books, and because it was profitable, Martin kept him on staff as some business management. JA: There were other editors in the 1940s. Dave Berg did some editing, and Al Jaffee did some editing in the late ’40s on the humor books. Did you deal with those two? SULMAN: No. I knew them personally, Al Jaffee and Dave Berg, but I did not work with them at all, not closely.

JA: That’s an interesting answer. Outside of the poker games, did you socialize with any of the people in the office? SULMAN: No, I didn’t. I don’t recall having lunch with any of them [from the office]. Maybe some of the staff artists [went to lunch together], I don’t remember. But I kept to myself.

JA: Then your editorial work was mainly consisting of the crime comics, the Westerns, and the super-heroes?

JA: Do you remember Helen Bennett?

SULMAN: Yes, that’s correct.

JA: It seems like she worked on magazines and worked on comics. Another

SULMAN: I remember her name. I don’t remember what she did on staff.

A Catch-As-Catch-Can Conversation With Al Sulman, “Personal Associate of Stan Lee”

was writing for the men’s adventure magazines, every time he came up to the office, he would come into my office to say hello to me, and talk for a few minutes. JA: Nobody could have possibly guessed what was going to happen with him in his career. How surprised were you? SULMAN: Well, I tell you, things like that didn’t surprise me, because I figured anyone who could write for comics, especially adventure magazines, could write full-length novels. So I wasn’t surprised. JA: That’s an interesting viewpoint, because a lot of people like to categorize, but you did not. They like to categorize people in a certain area, like “Well, they write this. That means they’re not good enough to write that.” You know what I mean? SULMAN: Well, I never judge people like that. JA: I know Mickey liked to go out a bit. Did you ever go out to a bar with him or anything like that?

Author! Author! (Left:) A photo of Mickey Spillane after he’d achieved fame and fortune as the author of the violent Mike Hammer detective novels. (Right:) A drawing of science-fiction (and later comics) author Ray Cummings. Both writers have been covered in more detail in previous issues of Alter Ego. We’d show you a pic of scripter Bill Finger, as well, but you’ve already seen all the ones we could dig up—at least until Marc Tyler Nobleman publishes his biography of the co-creator of “Batman” and “Green Lantern.” [© 2011 the respective copyright holders.]

SULMAN: No, I never did. I think he was a pilot during the war. I think he flew a fighter plane. He was a regular guy. He never put on airs or anything like that. JA: I once heard that Ray Cummings sometimes would dress very theatrically, like he’d wear a cape or something. Do you remember that?

person I heard worked in production there—her name was Judith Christ, who only had one arm. SULMAN: Yes, she was in the art department, and she was an excellent artist. I don’t remember what magazine she worked on.

JA: Yes. In fact, he even adapted some of his pulp stories into “Captain America” stories.

JA: Another writer was Ray Gill.

SULMAN: I’m not surprised. He used to come up to the office to bring his scripts, and he brought his daughter with him. She was a beautiful blonde girl.

SULMAN: He was a friend of Mickey Spillane’s. Sometimes, they would come up to the office together. They were both very good writers.

JA: Do you remember Bill Finger writing for you?

JA: What do you remember about Spillane’s scripts?

SULMAN: Oh, yes! Bill Finger was an excellent writer. He used to write crime stories.

SULMAN: Well, he favored writing crime stories, because he [later] wrote crime novels, of course. We had some crime magazines… I can’t remember the titles now. There were a bunch of them. But he was a very nice guy. We were kind of friends, very friendly.

JA: He was also the co-creator of “Batman.” Were you aware of that? SULMAN: No, I didn’t know that. JA: One of the things I heard was that he always was strapped for money, was always trying to get advances. Did he ever do that with you?

JA: Before the war, he wrote some “Human Torch” and he wrote “Sub-Mariner.” I didn’t know if you knew that.

SULMAN: No, he never mentioned that to me. He might have spoken to Stan about that, but I don’t really know.

SULMAN: I wasn’t sure about that, but I know he wrote crime stories for us. JA: He wrote “Jap Buster Johnson,” and he wrote “The Destroyer” during the early part of the war. He and Ray Gill knew each other at Funnies, Inc. Mickey Spillane, I take it, was easy to work with. SULMAN: Oh, yes, he was. He was very friendly with me; and years later, when he

SULMAN: No, I don’t remember that at all. He did a lot that I don’t remember. [mutual chuckling] Ray used to write for pulp magazines.

The Humorama Condition This vintage cartoon by Bill Ward was listed on the comicartfans.com website as being from Humorama. Al Sulman says he was an editor of the mag, under Abe Goodman, for several years “until the early 1960s.” Thanks to Mike Burkey. [© 2011 the respective copyright holders.]

JA: Was he a guy who was usually on time? I heard he had a lateness problem, too. SULMAN: I was not aware of it, no. JA: So schedules and stuff were just not things you dealt with at all.

“I Had A Liking For The Comic Magazine Business”

SULMAN: No, not schedules. That was Stan’s business.

World War II. I never thought I had to look down on doing comics at all.

JA: After you left Ace Comics, what did you do?

JA: Were there children in the neighborhood that would look up to you because you did comic books?

SULMAN: One of Martin Goodman’s brothers, Arthur Goodman, was editing.

SULMAN: Yes. I used to bring them free copies of the magazines, and they loved them. They really did.

JA: He was doing men’s magazines and maybe Humorama.

JA: After the war, there’s a problem. Captain America was a hard character to transition from wartime to peacetime. He was a living symbol of the American flag, fighting Nazis and Japanese. Then there’s no war, but he’s still in a patriotic costume. His alter ego, Steve Rogers, went from being in the Army to being a teacher at the Lee High School; and I was wondering, did you find it difficult to deal with the character because you no longer had the backdrop of World War II?

SULMAN: It was another brother, Abe Goodman, who edited Humorama. It was a humor magazine. You know, single cartoons with a caption. And he had hired me as his editor, yes. [I did that] maybe three or four years, until the early 1960s.

“A Lot Of The [Crime] Stories Were Too Violent” JA: And what did you do afterwards? SULMAN: I still worked for Martin Goodman on men’s adventure magazines [which were run by Arthur]. They were like pulp magazines [except they were magazine-size]. One was called Male. I did not edit them, but I did the production work. That means putting each issue together each month. I was a production editor for a few years, but I can’t remember exactly how long. JA: Roy Thomas started at Marvel in 1965, and he said he used to play poker with you and a bunch of other guys.

From Captain To Civilian Sulman agreed with Jim Amash that, in a post-WWII setting, superheroes like Captain America lost some of their appeal, perhaps because they no longer had Axis soldiers and villains as foils. Perhaps, then, Al was no longer script editor of Captain America Comics when, in #59 (Nov. 1946), this tale dealt with “The Private Life of Captain America!”—what might have been called his “peacetime conversion.” Steve Rogers becomes a high school teacher—and winds up involved in a mundane mystery in which hoodlums are using schoolkids to commit crimes. What a comedown from battling The Red Skull! Writer & artists unknown—and, in fact, we don’t even know what generous soul sent us this scan! [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

SULMAN: Yes, we played poker once a week, right. [A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: During the late 1960s and the first half of the ’70s when I was playing poker with Al, Sol Brodsky, John Romita, Mike Esposito, Stan Goldberg, Sol’s advertising friend Carl Wershba, and later Al Milgrom, we played no more than once a month.] JA: Roy couldn’t remember what you were doing, job-wise. I told him you “had to be working for Martin Goodman somehow, or he wouldn’t have been there.” SULMAN: Yes, well, as I say, I did production work on Male magazine. After that, I was probably in my early sixties, and I decided to retire. So I moved to Connecticut, and I was finished with the publishing business.

JA: One thing I’ve heard from people who worked in comics during the time you did, including quotes from Stan Lee, was that a lot of them were ashamed of working in comics because the comics were looked down upon as cheap, trashy children’s literature. Did you ever feel this way? SULMAN: No, not at all. When I was working in the comic magazine business, the comic books were very popular. Every publisher wanted to get into the business because they were selling so well, especially during

SULMAN: No. At that time, I no longer edited Captain America because the war was over. So I don’t recall anything about that. [NOTE: Even though Al previously said he did not edit Captain America, he was once listed in the postwar Timely books as such; but due to his age and health, he had trouble recalling it in any detail. It may well be that Al was script editor of the book, but not art editor, which he made clear was Stan Lee’s job. —Jim.] JA: As script editor, did you ever think that a particular character should have gone in one direction instead of the direction you were going in? SULMAN: No, I never felt that at all. The characters were set, they were doing what they were doing, and I guess, after the war, they were fighting terrorists and hardcore criminals. JA: Did you find the super-heroes to be less compelling because the war was over?

SULMAN: Maybe you’re right about that. Maybe the enemies they fought were not as diabolical as the Germans and the Japanese. JA: In the crime comics, there were no reoccurring characters. Did you find it easier or harder to do these anthology books versus, say, reoccurring characters like “Captain America” or “Sub-Mariner”? SULMAN: You’re probably right about that. I think “The Human Torch,” “Sub-Mariner,” and “Captain America” were, as you say, more compelling. JA: When you wrote “Captain America” and “Sub-Mariner,” did you have to submit a plot to Stan, or did you just write it? SULMAN: I submitted an outline of a story idea to Stan, because, besides being the art director, he had to okay all story ideas. JA: Why didn’t you didn’t write “The Human Torch”? Were you less interested in him?

A Catch-As-Catch-Can Conversation With Al Sulman, “Personal Associate of Stan Lee”

JA: Did you feel this criticism was fair or unfair? SULMAN: Well, I guess they had a good point. A lot of the stories were too violent, yeah. JA: By the way, when you were working on staff, did you have health insurance? Did you have a 401K or something like that? SULMAN: No, I did not. It was just a straight salary. I had to wait until I was 65 before I went on Medicare, but no, I did not have any health insurance in the early years. None. JA: Do you remember how much they paid you? SULMAN: [chuckles] To tell you the truth, I do not remember. It was a living wage. I mean, I got along on my salary. JA: And you got a separate check for your freelance writing. SULMAN: Yes, for a two-page, 1500-word script. I think they paid $20 for each one. At that time, it was a nice $20 that came in handy.

The Blonde Leading The Blonde When Timely/Marvel decided to revive All Winners Comics with a new #1 (Aug. 1948), the Blonde Phantom joined the wartime “Big Three”—and was featured bigger on the cover than all of them put together! Cover artist unknown—though the “Blonde Phantom” story inside is credited to Allen Bellman. There was also a Bellman-drawn “Let’s Play Detective” one-pager in the issue. Thanks to the GCD and Bruce Mason, respectively. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

SULMAN: I couldn’t tell you I was less interested in him. One of the other writers specialized in “The Human Torch”; I don’t remember who it was. JA: Did you find it easier to work with scripts on those kinds of characters, or did you find anthologies like crime or Westerns easier to do? SULMAN: Well, to tell you the truth, crime comics and Western characters also became very popular. I liked doing those books. JA: There were some parental groups that occasionally would attack comic books for having too much crime or stuff like that. SULMAN: Yes, that’s why they established a code, a comics magazine code. We had to be very, very careful there wasn’t too much violence. JA: When Dr. Wertham and all these other people started making a big deal about the violence in comics, did that worry you about the future of the business? SULMAN: Yes, it did. That may be one reason why sales went into a slump, and it may be why thirty of us had to be let go.

Al Sulman Checklist

AL SULMAN Checklist [NOTE: This Checklist is adapted from information contained in the online Who’s Who of American Comic Books (1928-1999), established by Jerry G. Bails; see ad below. Names of features which appeared both in comics with that title and in other comics, as well, are not italicized. Online, probably based on a reading of Stan Lee’s 1947 book Secrets behind the Comics, Sulman’s first name is given as “Alan,” rather than the correct “Albert.” Key: (w) = writer; (ed) = editor.] Name: Albert (Al) Sulman (b. 1918) (writer, editor)

COMIC BOOK CREDITS (Mainstream U.S. Publications):

Family in Arts: Joseph Sulman, brother (artist)

Ace Periodicals: editor (see text for job description details) – 1951-52

Comics Shop/Studio: Chesler Studio (w) dates unknown

DC Comics: Biff Bronson (w) 1939-41; Caveman Curly (w) c. 1946; Socko Strong (w) 1939-40; Zatara (c. 1940-42)

The WHO’S WHO of American Comic Books (1928-1999) Online Edition Created by Jerry G. Bails FREE – online searchable database – FREE www.bailsprojects.com – No password required

A quarter of a million records, covering the careers of people who have contributed to original comic books in the US.

Major Magazines: Cracked (w) 1958 Marvel/Timely Comics: Blonde Phantom (w) 1946-47; Captain America, dates unknown; Eustace Hayseed (earlier Eustis Hayseed) dates unknown; Human Torch, dates unknown; support (story ed) 1947 to c. 1950 [NOTE: The Who’s Who lists Sulman as an associate editor in 1947, and as an editor from 1948 to circa 1950; see interview for Sulman’s own job description of himself as “story editor.”]

Visit TwoMorrows at the

Booth #2839 Just outside Artist’s Alley for these debuts:

Advertise With Us! ALTER EGO! • BACK ISSUE! • DRAW! (please inquire for BrickJournal rates) COVERS: 8.375" Wide x 10.875" Tall (plus 1/8" bleed all around) FULL-PAGE: 7.5" Wide x 10" Tall HALF-PAGE: 7.5" Wide x 4.875" Tall QUARTER-PAGE: 3.75" Wide x 4.875"

These rates are for ads supplied on-disk (PDF, JPEG, TIF, EPS, or Quark Xpress files acceptable). No agency discounts apply. Display ads are not available for the Jack Kirby Collector.

Ad Rates: Back cover COLOR: $800 ($700 for two or more) Inside cover B&W: $400 ($350 for two or more) Full-page B&W interior: $300 ($250 for two or more) Half-page B&W interior: $175 ($150 for two or more) Quarter-page B&W interior: $100 ($87.50 for two or more)

Bulk Ad Rates! Run the same size ad for 26 insertions and these discounts apply: Back cover COLOR: $10,000 ($385 per ad) Inside cover B&W: $6000 ($231 per ad) Full-page B&W interior: $4000 ($154 per ad) Half-page B&W interior: $2000 ($77 per ad) Quarter-page B&W interior: $1000 ($39 per ad)

We accept check, money order, and all major credit cards; include card number and expiration date.

Send ad copy and payment (US funds) to: TwoMorrows Publishing 10407 Bedfordtown Dr. • Raleigh, NC 27614 919-449-0344 • fax 919-449-0327 • E-mail: twomorrow@aol.com

Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt!

After getting Mike’s permission to reprint the piece, I asked him to explain a couple of obscure references, and also encouraged him to share any thoughts on his old article. On 4/21/10, Mike replied:

Introduction by Michael T. Gilbert recently stumbled across a fascinating 1974 fanzine article in Batmania #19, featuring a blow-by-blow account of writer Mike Friedrich’s attempts to sell his first pro story to editor Julie Schwartz. This was no easy task in 1966, especially for a starry-eyed 16-yearold high school student. DC had pretty much slammed the door on new talent when sales took a big dive after the notorious 1954 Congressional comic book hearings. But by 1966, young Turks like Neal Adams, Jim Steranko, Roy Thomas, Marv Wolfman, and Len Wein had begun to break into the old boys’ network.

Friedrich’s article provides a rare snapshot of those times, a peek behind the editorial curtains of staid DC. Though his memoir is painful in spots (oh, the rejection!), Mike’s youthful enthusiasm still shines through. We’ve all been there.

“Hi, Michael, I completely forgot that I ever wrote up my breaking-in story for Batmania. It's a pleasure to read this report from my younger years. To fill in a couple of obscure references: in his letter columns Julie came up with cute names for some of his regular correspondents, like myself. I lived in Castro Valley, California, as a teenager, and he'd dubbed me ‘Castro Mike.’ Also, an oblique reference is made to a ‘bloody’ event to July 4, 1966. Fellow Schwartz letter-writer Guy H. Lillian III also lived in the Bay Area at the time and we got together a few times in high school and college. On July 4, 1966, Julie Schwartz was vacationing in San Francisco. Guy and I arranged to meet with him but were involved in a near-serious pre-seat-belt car accident. We were both passengers in the back seat and fortunately escaped with bumps and scrapes. It was very traumatic, not the least for missing the opportunity to meet Julie, which didn't occur for another year. “It's very clear in retrospect that Julie bought my first story not because it was any good, but because he was worried that I was giving up, just when I was starting to develop a tiny talent. I'm glad he stuck with me, or otherwise I may never have had the 35year career in comics that I wound up having. I used the money from that first check to go to New York for a summer and get a first-hand ‘tough-but-fair’ tutoring from Julie. Three months later I wrote my first published script, which was drawn by Neal Adams. Now that's a real sweet debut!

Mike submitted his article to Batmania founder Biljo White in July 1967, shortly after his first sale. It sat on Biljo’s shelf until second editor Rich Morrissey published it in 1974. “Blood, Sweat, and Tears… and Then Some” is comic history in the raw, at the cusp of Mike’s writing career. Julie, in this account, comes across as tough but fair. A long-time sci-fi fan himself, he was unusually receptive to others of his tribe. Reading between the lines, one can also see how staid DC would soon lose their #1 spot to upstart Marvel. Schwartz was horrified at Mike’s use of the Golden Age villain Two-Face. He also disapproved of any mention of drugs, which seems positively quaint in light of DC’s current storylines.

“Mike”

Pictures Perfect! (Left:) A mid-’70s photo of Julius Schwartz, from Amazing World of DC Comics #3 (Nov. 1974). (Right:) Sheldon Mayer, editor Schwartz’s former editor, draws Julie for AWODC #3. [© 2011 DC Comics.]

Sweet, indeed, Mike! A young Arlen Schumer illustrated Mike’s article when it was published in Batmania #19. In later years, Arlen became a talented commercial artist and comic historian; his The Silver Age of Comic Book Art won the Independent Publishers Award for Best Pop Culture Book of 2004. And now, without further ado…

“Blood, Sweat, and Tears… and Then Some” or “How to Sell a Batman Story in 12 Easy (?) Lessons” by “Castro” Mike Friedrich ackground: In the spring of 1966, NPP [National Periodical Publications, a.k.a. DC Comics] issued a statement at the end of most of their lettercols to the effect that “letters will not be answered unless accompanied by a self-addressed, stamped envelope.” Now to any normal-thinking person (like myself, natch), this meant “letters will be answered when accompanied by an SASE.” So I made a practice of writing a LOC [letter of comment] to every Julius Schwartz mag when that came out, enclosing an envelope for a reply. A regular correspondence was set up this way (though I had to wait days and weeks for replies because thousands of other fans had the same I idea I had). In early June I asked a post-scriptural question to the effect, “Do you take seriously reader contributions?,” adding that I had an idea for a story that I would like to submit. The reply was…

“(June 16, 1966) Finally, do I ‘take seriously reader contributions’? Yes

and no—depends on the contributor. In your case, you get the red carpet treatment. As a matter of fact, I definitely do encourage you to take a crack at writing for me. I’m open to EVERYTHING! “However, I recommend that you send me a plot first—no point in doing a whole script based on an idea or development I don’t like—or on something similar I may have coming up [sic]. “Believe me, I’m not putting you ‘on’ with writing for me. I’m hopeful you can come up with some fresh ideas. I’m confident that you have the literary ability to make a go of it—if not right off, then in due time, if you’re willing to stick to it and learn the business….” Naturally, I went out of my skull—Julie Schwartz asking me to write for him! Me, who had never done anything in the line of straight fiction more than a short story for an English class the year before! I quickly dashed up a Batman story featuring the return of the old villain TWO-FACE and sent it in….

Mike Friedrich’s “Blood, Sweat, and Tears… and Then Some”

“(June 27, 1966) When I invited you to take a crack at writing for one “Stop pressing me on the subject of whether Bob Kane does his own of my magazines, I didn’t anticipate you’d start off with a BATMAN! work. It’s not my business to tell—not yours to know. Besides, the only Surely this is one of the toughest for a beginner to handle—and one who really knows is Bob Kane himself.” [I threw that in to show while I can appreciate your trying to achieve the what answer I got when I asked the perennial question!] heights right off, I prefer you ‘break in’ with a Well, I’m a persistent person sometimes, so I shorter type of feature or story, perhaps came up with answers to his objections and an ELONGATED MAN, ATOM, etc. re-submitted the plot again… In addition, of all the Batman villains to choose from you hit “(September 7, 1966) If you were upon TWO-FACE—a character here in person we could argue so repugnant that the TV effectively over the objections I bigwigs turned it down! I raised in the Robin-Joker plot have no desire to inflict this but since you’re stuck way out villain upon my readers (a there, all I can do is answer your feeling that’s subject to counter-objections with [a list of change). Your plot is Bill further criticism]…. I think Fingerish, which while it isn’t you’re wasting time with this solo so bad, it isn’t so hot, either. R plot as it’s shaping up—but if The two-based crimes are in the you insist on another time at bat, go standard old Batman tradition— ahead—but if it ain’t a strike-out I’d be but I’d just as soon get away from surprised (and delighted).” the theme where villain leaves cryptic clues with B&R tracking them down to I went over the plot and changed the the inevitable conclusion [EAT YOUR villain to the Riddler, since one of his Constructive Criticism! WORDS, JULIE!!!]… main objections was having the Joker act Editor Schwartz as seen by DC writer Marty Pasko. like the Riddler. The inevitable answer From Amazing World of DC Comics #3. [© 2011 DC Comics.] But what’s the TV people thing got to came… do with what you do? And Bill Finger was the man behind the classic stories in the early forties. What’s wrong with “(September 27, 1966) I was taken aback by your switching Joker to that? Oh well, then JS made his famous trip to California for a vacation. Riddler. I happen to have a Riddler story scheduled for the April Here is where the blood part comes in—and I get sick thinking about it DETECTIVE––and that’s enough for next year… [then some more still. Suffice to say, I wrote up a “surprise” EM story to spring on him criticism] …Finally, I can’t believe this will ever make a good story, so I when I was scheduled to meet him when he got in my area. Due to say––junk it! automotive circumstances beyond my control (ask Guy H. Lillian III for “All of which leaves you nowhere––again. Try again (cry again?)— details), I was unable to meet him and so I mailed the script in. The reply maybe you’ll hit it next time. How about an ATOM or HAWKMAN?” upon his return… “(August 19, 1966) Let me start right off that it was a blow to me to read your script. Here’s a correspondent—and darn good critic—who writes well-conceived letters and a breezy, almost flip style (among other things) and then comes up with such a flat, dull, uninspired, unconvincing script! To pick out its faults, I’d need a derrick, so all I could do is hint at them in the script itself. [And he had gone in great detail in pointing out the mistakes in the script]. I had hoped—even expected— some real good, colorful dialogue—snappy captions—original gags. I got back nothing! “If all this disheartens you, don’t let it get you down. Experience is still the best teacher. The best science-fiction writer in the business wrote dozens and dozens of stories before he made his (okay—it’s Ray Bradbury) first sale (through me, incidentally, as his agent). If I knew the plot beforehand (as I asked), I would have rejected it then and there. I’m sure you can do better; I know you will eventually. You had to learn to crawl before you could walk….” Okay, so I tried again. The then-current Batman featured a story with The Joker. I got the idea for a Robin solo story with villain and sent in a plot along with my usual critique on the issue. His reply… “(August 31, 1966) In your attempt to evaluate ‘The Joker’s Original Robberies’ you came up with the word ‘professional’ (You muffed the authorship—it was John Broome)—wish that your Joker plot could be tagged with the same word! I searched your outline over and over and was hard-pressed to find anything to excite me… [then followed 15 lines of criticism and comments, ending with]…To do a story in which it’s hero versus villain only—and without some sub-plot and dramatic characterization—is hardly enough to grip the reader. Cry a bit—then try again…

I bugged him one more time with more “answers” and he wearily consented to let me write up a script… “(November 2, 1966) At last—here’s your script back—red-penciled where you’ve fallen short. Another try-out that failed (I wasn’t enthusiastic about it from the start, remember)—but at least it’s another script out of your system—and an advance over your prior one—if you can use some encouragement.” I sure could. Just then I had finished reading Issac Asimov’s two Robot anthologies and was very up on the Three Laws of Robotics. I came up with the idea of having Green Lantern visit a world of robots and encounter the Three Laws in practice… “(November 22, 1966) On the GL plot. Frankly, it was confusing to follow—but perhaps you can make it clear enough in the actual writing— which I’m allowing you to do on the chance you can make something out of it—simplifying as much as possible, especially the Three Laws of Robotics (which I’m sure the majority of readers are unfamiliar with). “A few points on the plot itself: [20 lines of suggestions and criticisms]… If you can take care of my objections, give the story a try. Come up with dramatic captions, swinging dialogue, good scene transition and action that hasn’t been done over and over. Please don’t excuse yourself by saying that I (or Fox and Broome) do it. Perhaps so—but you should beat out original paths of your own.” So I wrote it up and turned it in. But all of a sudden I didn’t get any answer from him in months. I got a little desperate. I sent notes and letters and carrier pigeons to 575 Lexington and all I got back was a note saying he’d write soon. Finally…

Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt!

Batman plot dealing with—CATWOMAN. Neither Broome nor Fox is familiar with her (and that goes for me, too), but maybe your knowledge of her will be helpful. I had just about given up on the GL thing anyway, and to finally be asked to try a Batman plot was good, after trying to be nudged into an Elongated Man, Atom, or such plot. But Catwoman??? Just a few weeks before I had a letter printed saying that I was glad CW would stay in mothballs, and if a femme villainess was needed, Poison Ivy would be much better. So I laughed my head off and came up with a half-hearted CW story that incorporated the character of the original CW, which wasn’t what Julie wanted, since he obviously was trying to please the requests for the television villainess. During the letterfreeze period, though, I had come up with an idea for a Robin story, having the Teen Titan face a group of Hell’s Angels types. (Tom Fagan, get up and take a bow for the germ of this idea with your telephone call mentioning you were interested in the group). So I turned them both in. The answer: “(March 31, 1967) As for the Catwoman story-plot—alas, you disappointed me. There doesn’t seem to be anything new, original or clever in the story. Even the dramatic human interest is cliché… [another long series of comments and suggestions and objections to my idea]… It’s always good to have a human interest subplot in a yarn, but I don’t think the love interest bit is it. Can you conjure up something else of interest? Whip up another plot if you can. “Report on Robin story: [He started right off with a full page of suggestions and questions, ending with an okay to write a script]… I see this as a nine-pager. It would be very helpful if you could round up some swipes (pictures of type of uniforms gang wears, bikes, etc.) for the artist. Dialogue should swing—be modern (although not mod)—colorful captions—and good transitions from one panel to another. I prefer no more that six panels a page—plus 4- or 5panel pages where colorful action is going on, with interesting backgrounds.” This was by far the best encouragement I’d been given so far. So I kissed Catwoman Arlen Schumer’s moody Batman illo from Batmania #21. [Batman TM & ©2011 DC Comics.] good-bye (it turned out I did a story with her anyway) and went to work on my “(March 21, 1967) Still haven’t been able to dissect your GL story—but Robin story. I took a lot of time on it and tried to make it as realistic as obviously it’s not an acceptance; just about a reject. It looks like it’ll be possible. The last half of the story showed Robin invading the motorcybetter to talk this out when you get to NYC—although the date might run clists’ gang hideout. In this scene I had the gang doing what I felt they into my vacation time. Perhaps you can switch your trip to late August, normally would be doing—smoking grass. I had checked the Comics Code thereby being around to take in the science-fiction convention here over and there was nothing specific against it, so I used it. I turned it in, Labor Day. ignoring that little “catch-all” clause that the Code has, and which is being used in this case regarding drugs… “If you’re looking for further encouragement from me, work up a

Didn’t Bob Kane Draw This, Too?

Mike Friedrich’s “Blood, Sweat, and Tears… and Then Some”

“It’ll take time, but it might be advisable to re-plot this before rewriting it—unless you want to take the gamble.” Needless to say, I was extremely depressed at this particular rejection. I had made the villains as real as life (I felt) and it turned out that this was illegal. I fired off a bitter letter to this effect, making some extreme satirical statements about my editor’s policy, since I considered it to be his own censorship and not the Code’s. I said to hell with re-plotting and turned in a new script. In it I cleaned up the bad guys, and after my bitterness had subsided, I was proud of my work. I threw in an overly dramatic scene at the end and had some good, real modern slang that Fox/Broome were usually devoid of. So I turned it in the first week of May. An air mail-special delivery envelope came back three days later. It was as thick as all the others before, but I trembled anyway, since the special delivery part was new… “Please cash it—don’t frame it. The revised Robin story was a definite improvement—and while it still had faults and shortcomings, I decided to accept it, which no doubt is the greatest encouragement an enterprising writer could hope for—HIS FIRST SALE!”

The Plot Thickens! Julie and writer Gardner Fox hash out a plot in Strange Adventures #140 (May 1962). For that issue, Fox scripted ”The Strange Adventure That Really Happened,” illustrated by Sid Greene, for editor Julie. [© 2011 DC Comics.]

“(April 19, 1967) Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine you’d incorporate a dope-drug angle into your story! That’s taboo—and OUT! But let’s start at the beginning… [Again he went into detail on the story’s faults]… Page 5: from here on your story falls apart—with its references to marijuana, booze, etc. All taboo subjects. You’ll just have to “dope” out another angle [HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA]. Story could use more action at end—even if you have to make this a 10pager to do so.

You can fill in the rest of my day—I can truthfully say that it was the most joyful day in my life, and total happiness is something NOBODY can put in words. Forgotten was the first rejection… forgotten was the fact that he edited the heck out of the script (he sent me a Xerox copy of it, which was why the envelope was so thick); and had to improve some poor spots…forgotten was the tragic night of July 4th…forgotten were the 11 months of blood, sweat, and tears…I HAD MADE IT! Indeed he had! Mike went on to script Batman, The Spectre, and Justice League of America for DC, as well as Iron Man, Captain Marvel, et al., for Marvel. In 1974 he launched Star*Reach, one of the earliest comic book companies promoting creator ownership. Three years later my first comic book series, “The Wraith,” appeared in Star*Reach’s companion comic, Quack! Unfortunately, despite talent like Howard Chaykin, P. Craig Russell, and Jim Starlin, Mike’s baby died in 1979. He paid off his bills by working as Marvel’s marketing director. By 1982 he’d morphed yet again, becoming an agent representing comic creators such as myself, Roy Thomas, Paul Chadwick,

Today I Am A…Pro! (Far left:) “Menace of the Motorcycle Marauders” was the first story Mike sold to DC—on May 10, 1967. It appeared in Batman #202 (June 1968), illustrated by Chic Stone & Joe Giella. (Left:) But “Menace of the Mystic Mastermind” (The Spectre #3, March 1968) was Friedrich’s first published pro story. [© 2011 DC Comics.]

Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt!

P. Craig Russell, and George Freeman—a service Julie had provided for Ray Bradbury and others in the ’30s. Mike also edited Craig, Roy, and myself on Pacific Comics’ Elric of Melniboné series. I wonder if we gave him as much trouble as he gave Julie? Nowadays Mike is mostly out of comics, happily working as a Leadership Development Coordinator for the University of California Professional and Technical Employees Union. Two things particularly impress me about Mike’s article. First, how much effort Julie spent shaping Mike’s stories. I wonder if any of today’s overworked editors would take the time? Secondly, I was impressed by Mike’s sheer persistence. Talent counts for a lot, but there’s nothing like stubborn determination to get you through the tough times. A good lesson for any aspiring creator!

Two-Face! (Left:) This photo of a teenaged Mike appeared in The Symbol #10 (Aug 1967). Courtesy of Lynn Woolley, who published the fanzine. The accompanying caption reads: “Mike Friedrich, who had a script accepted by National.” (Right:) And here’s Mike in a more recent photo. [© 2011 Mike Friedrich.]

I asked Mike if he had any thoughts about Schwartz’s editing all these years later. He said that after the first few scripts Julie did less copyediting than he did at first. “Our disagreements were more over plotting issues,” he added. “I felt at the time that Julie did not let me express as much of the emotional side of characters as I would like, and this led to resentment. However I'm also aware now that I had significant problems in constructing the kinds of stories that he liked, which was my failing. We spoke very different languages and I didn't listen as well as I could have. At the time I blamed him for this. This ultimately led me to leave for Marvel, where I fit a little better (my failings there were of a different sort). “Re-reading the article you dug up, I found myself agreeing with his criticisms of my work. Maybe it's age (I'm ten years older than Julie was when he wrote those letters to me).” You and me both, Mike! Till next time…

Let's Take It Nice And DC! (Above right:) Just as this issue was about to go to press, Mike Friedrich sent us scans of—well, we'll let him tell you about it in his own words: "In addition to my recent retirement, my first comics story since 1978 has just been written and drawn.... Artist Ron Fontes in Maine has created a charming anthology series about a young cartoonist scuffling hard to make a living in New York, with the stories centered around a 24-hour diner across from the bus station called the Terminal Diner. I was inspired to submit my script to Ron a while back and he graciously agreed to draw it. I received the artwork literally on my last day of work! Ron's published anthology, Tales of the Terminal Diner (which inspired my story), can be found at Amazon.com. I hope you enjoy this." We definitely did, Mike—especially its quasi-autobiographical nature! In the panels above, artist "Neal Franklin" (a stand-in for Neal Adams) takes the aspiring young writer in to see an editor mysteriously named "Julie." This tale, related to Mike’s Spectre debut, of course, makes Mike's road into pro-dom seem a bit less rocky than it actually was! [Script © 2011 Mike Friedrich; art © 2011 Ron Fontes.]

mmm… the above illo by Shane Foley, featuring our “maskot” Alter Ego, looks a wee bit familiar. It’s perfect, of course, both as regards this issue’s subject matter of 50 years since the birth of the so-called Marvel Age of Comics, and as an introduction to missives regarding A/E #90, which turned a bank of spotlights on Stan Lee’s pre-1961 scripting, Joe Sinnott 80th birthday (a year or so late), and Dick Ayers at home… as well as on one-time Timely writer and later novelist Patricia Highsmith, Golden Age scripter Leon Lazarus, the teenage fan-creations of Steve (“Howard the Duck”) Gerber, Michael T. Gilbert on ol’ Doc Wertham, and some fine FCA fare. [Alter Ego hero TM & © 2011 Roy & Dann Thomas; costume designed by Ron Harris; other art © 2011 Shane Foley.] However, a funny thing happened on the way to this letters section: namely, we discovered that, except for general kudos for coverage of the above subjects, most of the mail was generated by Stuart Fischer’s article on the 1966-67 Marvel Super-Heroes animated TV series! Perhaps it’s partly because there weren’t many facts to be challenged or added to on the Sinnott and Ayers pieces—and because few could add much to Ger Apeldoorn’s analysis of Stan’s early writings. At any rate, let’s get started on #90—with a note from Will Murray, whose short piece on the Fantastic Four’s debt to Doc Savage pulp magazine, along with several other items originally scheduled for this issue, had to be delayed till a (hopefully near-) future edition… Hi Roy, I really enjoyed the Leon Lazarus interview. In fact, the entire issue was really absorbing. Lazarus mentioned a man named Schwartz, affiliated with Martin Goodman. Well, we can be sure it wasn’t Julie or Alvin. I wonder if it wasn’t Harold Schwartz. He edited comics for Street & Smith in the late ’40s. I think he was also with the Parents Magazine Group around that time, too. I know nothing else about him. Will Murray We’ll toss that info out there, Will, and see if anyone else knows anything about the aforementioned Harold Schwartz and his possible connection to Leon Lazarus. Next, here’s an e-mail from someone with a surname familiar to these pages, namely Caputo: Dear Roy, Ninety issues and still going strong! Loved the latest, wanted to send this out. The picture on page 54 clearly states “Happy Birthday, Leon,” if you just turn it around. Hope that clears up whose birthday it was. Now if we could just figure out how old he was! Loved the tribute to Joe Sinnott. What a great person he is! I was

Having A Barney In A/E #90, biographer Joan Schenkar mentioned (and we printed the splash of) a comic book story about prize-fighter and World War II soldier Barney Ross that had been written by Patricia Highsmith (future author of Strangers on a Train, The Talented Mr. Ripley, et al.) for Pines’ Real Life Comics #13 (Sept. 1943), as seen above. Seeing that, reader Jake Oster informed us that Ross’ life story had also been covered in Timely’s U.S.A. Comics #9 (July 1943), as seen above, and wondered if Highsmith “might have decided to get two paychecks instead of one [for her research].” Joan S. took time from her schedule to look at scans of the Timely version, as supplied by R. Gary Land, and responded that she didn’t “see anything in this generic dialogue to indicate the hand of Highsmith. But since her first writing assignment at Sangor Pines, sometimes in late Dec. 1942 or January 1943, was a bio-scenario of Barney Ross for Real Life Comics #13, it would be clever of someone to compare the two and see if there are any notable similarities. I should be the one to do it, but I don’t have a copy of Real Life #13.” [© 2011 Marvel Characers, Inc.]

lucky to meet and go to dinner with Joe, his son Mark, and my brother Nick, Barry Pearl, and Michael Vassallo. A great time was had by all. John Caputo Thanks for the kind words, John—and your eyes are apparently sharper than ours, especially when it comes to an upside-down birthday cake! And now, very swiftly, we get to the piece that brought in most of the fact-related mail we love to run in this column—namely, Stuart Fischer’s study of the Marvel Super-Heroes TV cartoon series of 1966-67. We’ll start with this one from artist and fan Al Bigley: Hi Roy— I enjoyed the Marvel Super-Heroes cartoon article. So little is known

re:

artwork of Jack Kirby, Don Heck, Gene Colan, and others, as well as hearing Stan’s deathless dialogue straight from the comics. Jeff Taylor also sent us details about the “Canadian content” of the Marvel Super-Heroes show, adding: “It wasn’t just Jack Kirby and the other Marvel artists who had their work raided to bolster the deficiencies of the ultra-cheap animation, because I saw French artist Jean-Claude Forest’s sexy 1960s space siren Barbarella in a crowd scene in one of the Incredible Hulk cartoons! Incidentally, if you think political correctness is something new, check out the Captain America segments. While they were more than willing to show flashbacks of World War II and Cap’s battles with The Red Skull, they were obviously not willing to offend anybody by actually showing Hitler, instead redrawing him without his signature mustache as a nameless generic dictator!” Thanks for the info on the early PC, Jeff! And still the incremental info cascades in, this time courtesy of Joe Frank: Dear Roy, A couple of corrections and some more info about the MSH cartoons:

Semi-Colan Al Bigley writes that the above black-&-white illo, the original of which was sold in 2010 via the Internet, is “one of the many Sub-Mariner bits of art that still crop up from the 1966 Marvel Super-Heroes show.” Apparently penciler Gene Colan autographed it at some time in the past. The inking may be by Namor creator Bill Everett, who embellished Colan’s “SubMariner” in 1966 Tales to Astonish issues #79 & #85; but this isn’t a panel from either of those tales, and was probably done specifically for the animated series. [© 2011 Marvel Characters, Inc.]

about this great series that’s still unreleased on DVD in the USA! Did you kow that John Vernon (later of Animal House fame) voiced Iron Man, Sub-Mariner, and Major Talbot, among others? Most of the other (Canadian) voice talent was also involved in the many Rankin-Bass Christmas productions, as well as the later Spider-Man cartoon. That’s why Rudolph’s coach sounds just like J. Jonah Jameson! Live kiddie-show MCs were mentioned, as well, as part of the local airing of MSH. A search on YouTube reveals footage of Captain America (played by Arthur Pierce) on WNAC-TV, Channel 7, Boston, plus original opening and closing segments, TV ads, etc. Also, a book by Shamus Culhane, Talking Animals and Other People, details his work on the Thor segments, and you can search my comics blog for some rare MSH material: www.bigglee.blogspot.com.

The Sub-Mariner episode with Dr. Doom does indeed feature The XMen, but the source material is actually F.F. Annual #3 (not #1) and F.F. #6 (not X-Men #6). Each cartoon was broken up into three segments. In the Dr. Doom one, the first portion liberally utilized art and characters from the wedding of Reed and Sue—other than the bride, groom, and their teammates. Here, the Baxter Building is the Peace Building, and all the heroes are part of the Alliance for Peace. The X-Men play a prominent role, but we also see Hawkeye, Iron Man, Thor, etc., and many of the villains who appeared in that annual. Iron Man and SubMariner are voiced by the same actor (John Vernon). The next two segments cannibalize F.F. #6 as The Sub-Mariner plans Dr. Doom’s grabber in the basement and consequently sends the Peace Building into space. The X-Men substitute for the F.F. in the story, but mostly the focus is on Namor and Doom. Additionally, you wondered if Captain America episodes utilized Avengers material. Oh, yes. His cartoons contained fairly faithful adaptations of Avengers #18-22. Less integrity was used with earlier stories: Avengers #4 (Cap’s joining the team without the inclusion of Namor, and changing the alien into the gangster from Tales of Suspense #59), #6 (against Zemo and The Masters of Evil without Giant-Man and The Wasp), and #15 (focused solely on the revenge against Zemo with none of his other teammates except Rick Jones). Other Avengers stories were used elsewhere in the MSH cartoons: in Thor (#5, with The Lava Men) and Hulk (featuring The Space Phantom). Hope any or all of this helps, Roy.

You are right in saying that several SubJoe Frank Mariner episodes of that series aired before the comics appeared. “The Thing from Space” (from It sure does, Joe. Additionally, we received an Tales to Astonish #88) and the Prince Byrrah e-mail from reader Sharon Karibian covering a storyline (TTA #90) both had 1967 few of the same points, and adding that Re-Enter Thor! publishing dates, after the MSH airings. I “there’s at least one frame in [the aboveguess Stan gave the early art to the mentioned Sub-Mariner] episode that Al Bigley’s earlier note refers to the Marvel Super-Heroes cartoons as being unreleased on DVD, yet we found this producers, who were looking for content. shows the F.F.’s fabled ’4’ symbol in the collection of the Thor episodes, featuring the “Enter Hercules!” Also, the Gil Kane cover of TTA #87 cartoon (in a control room frame).” She storyline from 1966 issues of Journey into Mystery/Thor, on the carried a not-so-subtle background “ad” adds that at the time she first saw the web. Proofread Rob Smentek says those TV shows have come for the show! animated series on Channel 9 (WOR in into and out of circulation. [© 2011 Marvel Entertainment, Inc.] NYC), it was at 3 or 4 p.m., not 7 as Al Bigley stated in the article (because “back then Yeah, Stan had that added to plug the series. All of us at Marvel were my bedtime was 7 p.m.!”), and that seeing Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and truly jazzed at the time that a quintet of Marvel heroes were gonna be on TV, “Wanda the Scarlet Witch” (as the segment called her) in the Captain even if the animation was what some call “limited” (and others call “nonexAmerica “Commissar” episode led Sharon (then purely a DC fan) to feel “I istent”). The plus side of that was that viewers would be seeing the actual just had to have an Avengers comic. Soon afterward I bought Avengers #45

[correspondence, comments, & corrections]

and the rest is history.” And we trust that history is a favorite subject of yours, Sharon. And still the information-packed letters kept coming, such as this one from Jim Kuzee: Hello, Roy, As the article pointed out, there were several Sub-Mariner stories that must have been new. One was a 3-part story which involved Namor traveling back in time to the Rome of Emperor Nero, where he winds up in the arena battling a pretty tough gladiator. The gladiator is no match for Namor, of course, and Namor spares his life, leading The Sub-Mariner to join a secret underground group who stand against Nero. The climax of the story involves the burning of Rome while Nero plays the lute(!). The really cool thing about the story is that it’s framed at the beginning and end by scenes of an Atlantean school teacher who is telling the whole story to her students. I don’t recall this story ever appearing in any of the comics featuring The Sub-Mariner. It sort of reminded me of the “Iron Man” tale in an early Tales of Suspense in which he goes back to ancient Egypt and meets Cleopatra. You had mentioned that you may have worked on some of these stories, and I wondered if perhaps you had anything to do with this one, knowing your particular penchant for time travel stories? Really enjoy Alter Ego. I’ve been mostly getting the PDF versions. I love the color of the illustrations and photos. Keep up the great work and thank you. Jim Kuzee I’m afraid I have no recollection of what Sub-Mariner stories I may have helped plot for Marvel Super-Heroes, Jim—though I do know that I did no dialogue for them, only a synopsis or two, which the producers took from that point. Still, you’re right—a time travel tale does sound like something I might’ve done—but then, so did the one called “Peril from the Surface World” that, as a couple of folks pointed out in #90’s sidebar, featured a “mysterious elderly woman who turned out to be… no, not Betty Dean, but Captain MacKenzie’s mother, in effect Namor’s grandmother.” If I did have a hand in that one, it was a precursor, clearly, to 1968’s Sub-Mariner #9.

Spider-Man, etc. I’m sure you didn’t intend to mislead with the cover, but maybe this will encourage you to really run an article about the MMMS someday. Sarah Morrow Indeed, we didn’t mean to mislead anyone, Sarah, but we can see how you might’ve expected to also read an article on the MMMS. Matter of fact, would you believe that we had a piece on that very first Marvel fan club written especially for this 104th issue—but at the last moment, it (along with a second TV piece by Stuart Fischer, this one on the first Fantastic Four animated series) had to be bumped to a near-future issue because the lengthy interview with Stan Lee took up most of this one! But stay tuned— that MMMS study will be here ASAP, honest! SPECIAL A/E NOTE: For advance news and informed discussion concerning features in Alter Ego, check out the Alter-Ego-Fans chat list at group.yahoo.com/group/alterego-fans/. Or, if you have problems getting on board there, simply contact web co-overseer Chet Cox at mormonyoyoman @gmail.com and he'll lead you right to it. Alter-Ego-Fans is where the Golden and Silver Ages still live! Now, back to our regularly scheduled "re:" section: James H. Burns is a writer/actor living in Long Island, NY, who has written for such magazines as Gentleman’s Quarterly, Esquire, and Twilight Zone. He contacted us re the late Dave Simons, who was paid tribute to in A/E #90: Hey, Roy, Here’s a nice Dave Simons story. The January 1976 Creation Comics Convention, at the old, great Commodore Hotel in New York City, was the very first comic book convention I ever attended. I was just into my teens, but somehow I was working at the Monster Times dealers tables.

I had never seen an “artists’ alley” before. (Were they even called that, back then?) But while I was on a break from the Dave Simons Does The JSA dealer’s room, Dave became one of the very This Simons-penciled page from Young All-Stars #27 first comics artists I ever met—or “a strug(July 1989) depicted the male members of the 1942 Justice gling comics artist,” as he was quick to point Society of America charging out of the All-Star out. Dave couldn’t have been nicer to a kid. Squadron’s HQ in the Perisphere and into the storyline of He asked me if there was something he All-Star Comics #14. Inking by Bob Downs; script (notable could draw for me, and I said that would be here for absence of caption or dialogue) by Roy Thomas. [© 2011 DC Comics.] terrific, but I was broke. He offered to do a sketch for cigarettes. I thought he was Amid all the congrats and tidbits, however, Sarah Morrow had an kidding, but I still have the Killraven he drew for me that day, spectacuunderstandable quibble with #90’s cover copy: larly, in black marker. Dear Mr. Thomas, I saw your December issue with the words “Merry Marvel Marching Society” emblazoned in huge red letters at the top and thought, “Cool! An issue about the MMMS!” I got the issue and was disappointed to find no such aticle. I felt like the kid who used to buy comics with exciting cover scenes, only to find that the stories suggested by the covers were hoaxes, dreams, and imaginary stories, or didn’t exist at all. I hope you will indeed run an article about the MMMS. On one level, it was obviously a way for Marvel to take in more money by getting readers to send in a dollar for the membership kit. But on another level, it gave readers a sense of connection with Marvel Comics, a sense of belonging, and a personal connection with the creators of the early F.F.,

Now here’s the weird part. Through the years, I’d see Dave’s name on the credits of various comics, and think it was terrific that this fella I had run into years earlier, and who had been great fun to hang out with, was doing so well. Then, in the spring of 2001, I was attending a preview party for a new TV cartoon, over at the MGM screening room in Manhattan. Sitting at the bar in the MGM lobby, the fellow next to me introduced himself as Dave Simons. 25 years later, Dave and I were again hanging out, shooting the breeze about comics! He also told me something that he felt was important, and that I believe he’d want mentioned here. Dave was confused at all the controversy over Jim Shooter. He wasn’t denying any of the sad stories, but in Dave’s experience, Shooter had been great to him. He gave Shooter a lot of credit for what I remember Dave saying was at least the start of his comics career. Dave felt there must have been others

re:

who were similarly indebted to Marvel’s former editor-in-chief. Sad to know that Dave Simons is gone. His accessibility at the Commodore will live with me, always. James H. Burns Thanks for sharing those memories with us, James. I myself didn’t know Dave well, but we got along fine when we ran into each other, and I was pleased to work with him on a story from time to time. I was very sorry to hear he had left us. SPECIAL NOTE: A hearty “welcome back” to new/old layout wizard Jon B. Cooke, who performed the same duties on Alter Ego, Vol. 3, #2-7—in between the incarnations of his much-missed magazine Comic Book Artist. Long may you wave! A final note: Michael Dunne points out that on p. 86 of issue #90 we “attributed the Jim Mooney Supergirl/Ms. Marvel reinterpretation of the iconic Action cover to John G. Pierce. That was my concept and commission, the first of several commissions from Jim, who holds a special place in my heart (aside from the great work he did on ‘Tommy Tomorrow,’ ‘Dial H for Hero,’ and many other stories) because an hour-long conversation with him the day he had to put his late wife Annie in hospice played a role in [my girlfriend] Amy

and me walking down the aisle despite our significant age difference…. On our wedding day, Mr. Mooney, as I always called Jim, was one of the people we toasted.” We’re sorry for the mistaken attribution, Michael… thanks for not only being gracias about it, but for the added anecdote, as well. We’ll feature an article about the late great Jim Mooney in A/E #107.

There’s No Joke Like An Old Joke Re the documenting on p. 33 of A/E #90 of variations on a rain/umbrella gag written by Stan Lee first for a My Friend Irma comic book and then revamped for his Willie Lumpkin comic strip, John Benson points out that the former “is a recycling of one of the most famous Timid Soul gags by H.T. Webster.” He duly sent us a copy of the gag panel featuring the legendary Mr. Milquetoast, whose name has long since entered the language. The character ran from 191252. “One should never underestimate the age of gags,” John adds. Of course, Stan didn’t just lift the joke, but adapted and added to it, by having dim bulb Irma bring an umbrella to loan to her friend. [© 2011 the respective copyright holders.]

Send those kudos, complaints, and informative condiments to: Roy Thomas e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com 32 Bluebird Trail St. Matthews, SC 29135 Don’t miss our next scintillating issue! If you think EC’s Tales from the Crypt was pretty scary, kids, wait’ll you read and savor—“Tales from the CODE!”

NOW ON SALE! ™

The ALTER EGO COMIC BOOK 25th Anniversary Edition

#1-4 being released at regular intervals— followed by a BRAND NEW #5! Order it online, only at www.heroicpub.com/alterego [Alter Ego is a trademark of Roy & Dann Thomas.]

COMICS’ GOLDEN AGE LIVES AGAIN! MR. SCARLET BLACK TERROR • AVENGER PHANTOM LADY • CAT-MAN DAREDEVIL • CRIMEBUSTER CAPTAIN FLASH SPY SMASHER • MINUTE MAN SKYMAN • STUNTMAN THE OWL • BULLETMAN COMMANDO YANK PYROMAN • GREEN LAMA THE EAGLE • IBIS

The above is just a partial list of characters that have appeared in AC Comics’ reprint titles such as MEN OF MYSTERY, GOLDEN AGE GREATS, and AMERICA’S GREATEST COMICS. Virtually all issues published to date are available at $6.95 each. To find over 100 quality Golden Age reprints, go to the AC Comics website at <accomics.com>. AC COMICS Box 521216 Longwood FL 32752 Please add $1.50 postage & handling per order.

the file material for detail. I suppose that would be employing both imagination and research. I redesigned The Phantom Eagle’s plane after taking over the feature in 1944, endeavoring to create a small, easily identifiable jet that reflected Phantom Eagle’s character. Due to the volume of work I had taken on, which included the Flyin’ Jenny Sunday page and later the daily strip, time was of extreme importance; therefore all the fussy detail was omitted from the plane. JGP: That brings two questions to mind. First of all, do you know who created The Phantom Eagle?

[FCA EDITORS NOTE: From 1941-53, Marcus D. Swayze was a top artist for Fawcett Publications. The very first Mary Marvel character sketches came from Marc’s drawing table, and he illustrated her earliest adventures, including the classic origin story, “Captain Marvel Introduces Mary Marvel” (Captain Marvel Adventures No. 18, Dec. ’42); but he was primarily hired by Fawcett Publications to illustrate Captain Marvel stories and covers for Whiz Comics and Captain Marvel Adventures. He also wrote many Captain Marvel scripts, and continued to do so while in the military. After leaving the service in 1944, he made an arrangement with Fawcett to produce art and stories for them on a freelance basis out of his Louisiana home. There he created both art and stories for The Phantom Eagle in Wow Comics, in addition to drawing the Flyin’ Jenny newspaper strip for Bell Syndicate (created by his friend and mentor Russell Keaton). After the cancellation of Wow, Swayze produced artwork for Fawcett’s top-selling line of romance comics, including Sweethearts and Life Story. After the company ceased publishing comics, Marc moved over to Charlton Publications, where he ended his comics career in the mid-’50s. Marc’s ongoing professional memoirs have been a vital part of FCA since his first column appeared in FCA #54 (1996). Last time we re-presented the second part of John G. Pierce’s discussion with Marc from Comics Interview #122 (1993), which covered Marc’s post-1944 Fawcett work as well as the baseball game get-togethers with the Jack Binder art shop. As the final installment of this interview unfolds, we pick up with Marc recounting his work on “The Phantom Eagle.” (Thanks to publisher David Anthony Kraft [comicsinterview.com]. —P.C. Hamerlinck.] JOHN G. PIERCE: Now, to draw a feature such as “The Phantom Eagle,” you had to have some knowledge of planes. Was research mandatory, or did you just use your imagination a lot? MARC SWAYZE: My approach was to rough in the planes the way I wanted them in relation to the story, then get out

SWAYZE: No, I don’t. Probably Bill Parker, who dreamed up many of the Fawcett characters and titles. I believe “Phantom Eagle,” along with such features as “Mr. Scarlet,” “Prince Ibis,” and “Golden Arrow,” was in existence when I first joined the Fawcett staff. When I took it over in ’44 it was being done by the [Jack] Binder studio. [Executive editor] Will Lieberson and I discussed the feature before I brought the assignment South with me, and the general understanding was that I was to do anything I wanted to do with it—changes, that is. I changed the title logo completely and did away with the six or seven young flyers representing Allied countries who followed Phantom Eagle everywhere he went—and had to be drawn! I connected him with a commercial aviation firm and centered the interest around him, his girl friend, and a few minor associates. I think I must have been readying the feature for peacetime. “Phantom Eagle” was a fun job—both writing and drawing. I regret that there is little possibility that it will ever appear in reprints because much of the opposition was the Rising Sun.

Guardian of the Airways Swayze’s striking “Phantom Eagle” opening page from Wow Comics #52 (March 1947)—edited by Roy Ald, whose interview begins on p. 77 of this very issue. After his discharge from the Army in ’44, Swayze took over the strip as a freelancer, creating both art and often scripts from his Louisiana home until the feature came to an end with Wow’s cancellation in 1948. [Phantom Eagle TM & © 2011 respective copyright holders.]

JGP: The second question: when you were working on “Phantom Eagle” and Flyin’ Jenny simultaneously, did you have any trouble keeping them separate? Both, after all, were aviation-oriented. I would assume that Phantom Eagle operated in more of a fantasy realm than did Flyin’ Jenny, and likely this helped to keep them apart. SWAYZE: Had I been writing both features, I might have had that trouble. But “Phantom Eagle” was written by several veteran freelancers, with an occasional story by me. JGP: I know this question was posed to you years ago by another interviewer, but I’m going to repeat it, mainly because of my own interest in your answer, and the information it brings out. When you wrote stories which you were also going to draw, did you try to bring elements of sophistication into the stories, or was that frowned upon by the editors? SWAYZE: I had no urge to be bringing anything into comics that wasn’t already there. The Fawcett policies were immaculate. The books were put together primarily for young people, and as far as I could tell were never suggestive in any way. To illustrate, I was with Charlton

“We Didn’t Know… It Was the Golden Age!”

humor type. I tried to fill that need.

Publications for a brief period in 1955. Some of their material consisted of JGP: You moved back to Monroe [Louisiana] in …? reprints from other publishers, one being Fawcett. All such material went through a laundering process for approval by the Comics Code office SWAYZE: 1945, with the Fawcett assignment I’ve already mentioned, plus which had been established since original publication. The material from Flyin’ Jenny Sunday pages. After [Russell] Keaton’s death that year, I drew some publishers had to undergo tremendous revision—cleavage, scanty the Jenny daily strip, as well. After Fawcett comics ceased, I worked on attire, dialogue various features modification. for Charlton Fawcett’s merely Publications. Of had to have some the Charlton words like “cop” work, I like This and “guy” changed Is Suspense #26 to “police officer” [Aug. 1955], and “fellow.” When which contains I wrote for Fawcett, two stories I I did it with the wrote and drew, purpose of getting and Young Lovers editorial approval, #16 [July 1956] without which a and Sweetheart writer does not Diary #34 [1955], sell. One of the for which I drew best ways not to two stories each. get approval was to JGP: You violate an prepared some editorial taboo. I Fallin’ Jenny other work for also knew that a When Swayze began drawing “The Phantom Eagle” he worked simultaneously on another aviation feature, the syndication, certain percentage Flyin’ Jenny Sunday strip for the Bell Syndicate … and later took over the daily strip after its creator and Marc’s didn’t you? of the “Captain mentor, Russell Keaton, passed away. Above is the FJ Sunday installment from June 10, 1945, wherein Jenny and her Marvel” scripts “Bird Girls” experience a little mishap after putting on a music show for some servicemen. Script by Glenn Chaffin. SWAYZE: Over were of the light (Black-&-white copy courtesy of Ger Apeldoorn.) [Flyin’ Jenny TM & © 2011 respective copyright holders.] my 15-year

FCA [Fawcett Collectors Of America]

help us get to know you better as a person and not just as a retired Golden Age artist.

career, I must have prepared at least 15 ideas for features. They may be interesting for showing a variety of styles … some fast, some detailed, some cartoony, some illustrative. Some of the ideas would have made it but for my own actions. For instance, there was a feature I called Marty Guy, Private Detective for the New York Star that would have been syndicated had I not been obstinate about the editorial demands in their contract— and The Great Pierre, a feature the Bell Syndicate was to release in newspapers in 1955, but I decided to get out of comics completely. I have originals and copies of many of these syndicate attempts, and I think they are good. I was just a poor salesman.

SWAYZE: I am a fortunate man. Blessed is a better word. Sitting across the room is my wife, June—cuter, I swear, than she was when I first saw her singing in a band, in 1942. She’s smart, witty, wise, talented. She paints, sings, plays the organ at church, and has taught school for years. More important than all of these, she bore me five wonderful children and did a pretty good job of raising them. We have three daughters: a housewife/tennis player, a schoolteacher, and a secretary. Our son is an M.D., as is his wife. We lost our first son, Marc Jr., in Drawing to a Close 1975. God helped me After Fawcett Publications discontinued their comic book line, Swayze moved over briefly to through that. I paint; JGP: We’ve talked Charlton Publications, where he finished his 15-year career in comics. Above is the title panel for mainly about your I’ve been painting in “The Big Mistake”—one out of the two stories Marc wrote and drew for This Is Suspense #26 (Aug. 1955). career in comics and oils since high [© 2011 respective copyright holders.] art in general, but I school. I play music knew you’ve done other things. Why not tell us about them? in a Dixieland band and in a trio. I play golf—every day—twelve months a year. You’d think, after 52 years of it, I’d play a whale of a game, but as SWAYZE: In baseball, I thought I was a they say, it comes and it goes. pretty good amateur, and played a little semi-pro ball before moving on to other JGP: You’ve just mentioned a number of things I think readers need to hear. So things. I played music with a number of many of today’s comics creators seem to be dance bands and jazz combos. During conceited, self-centered boors who don’t World War II I was fortunate to be chosen have anything approaching or resembling to accompany Bing Crosby and get to know a real life. Certainly hardly any of them a nice guy in Bing. have any concept of relying on God for JGP: Do you know how many of your old help or have much of any kind of life associates are still alive? Do you keep in outside of the fantasy world in which they touch with any of them? operate. Marc, you’re a grand fellow, just as I’ve always heard that you were. SWAYZE: I have done a miserable job of Thanks so much for your time and for keeping in touch with my old associates— sharing your memories with us. which is probably why I am something of a forgotten man of comics. Over the years I stayed in touch only with Rod [Reed], Wendell [Crowley], and [C.C.] Beck, and that was due to their knowing that I needed constant prodding, I suspect. JGP: Well, finally, tell us about Marc Swayze in the present day … just anything you’d like us to know that’d

SWAYZE: You’re crazy, John … I’m also a conceited, self-centered boor. But it’s nice working with you. [Marc Swayze’s memoirs continue next issue!] Our interviewer, John G. Pierce, caught as The Green Hornet in this June 1968 snapshot.

“ Is This What I Want To Do For The Rest Of My Life? ” The ROY ALD Interview, Part 1 by Shaun Clancy Edited by P.C. Hamerlinck INTERVIEWER’S INTRODUCTION: Roy Ald had been one of those elusive Fawcett comic book editors about whom I had heard a lot of things but could never locate. After a 10-year search, I managed to find a relative of his, and then it still took another two months to be granted an interview with Roy. Our first conversation was awkward as we both tested each other’s memories, but once that breaking-in period was over, we had become fast friends.

many books under his own name and various pseudonyms, including such works as Physical Fitness after 35; The Case for an Afterlife; The Man Who Took Trips; The Youth Communes; Favorite Recipes of Famous Men; Cycling: The Rhythmic, Respiratory Way to Physical Fitness; The Skinnylook Cookbook; Jogging, Aerobics and Diet; and The Cheerful Cat Cookbook: Tempting Recipies for the Discriminating Cat!

It’s been almost two years since our first chat, and I've enjoyed every one of our two dozen discussions over that period. I found Roy to be brutally honest with his answers, with a complete disregard for protecting his own image. In fact, at times he was a little too upfront, and we mutually decided not to print a few controversial statements he had made about professional relationships he had experienced over the years.

When I first met him in person, I would have guessed Roy Ald to be in his 70s and not the 90-year-old man he actually is. His appearance, both physical and mentally, was a complete surprise to me, and he even demonstrated for me several acts of strength that I could only hope to accomplish at 50!

After leaving Fawcett Publications, Roy was unaware that the next two companies with whom he was associated had also been comic book publishers, something he now he finds very amusing.

The following chain of interviews will allow the reader to witness the life of a man who believes he may not have made the best choices in his life and who now wishes to convince us all to not travel down similar paths set before us. —Shaun Clancy.

SHAUN CLANCY: Where were you born? The most difficult part of this protracted dialogue was trying to find a ROY ALD: I was born on Coney Island, point where the interview needed to be June, 1920. I’m still a young fella at 90. concluded and the writing needed to I’m a physical fitness nut. If you Google begin. Roy Ald’s colorful career within my name, you’ll see I wrote a book on these FCA pages will be covered in a fitness under my real name. I had many limited series of installments, but I books published under different names believe you’ll find that we could cover and wrote about one a month. I wrote just about any one of his ventures in one on jogging, as well as various multiple pieces. Among his accomplishcookbooks. When I began writing ments was pioneering the groundsyndicated restaurant reviews, I was breaking Negro Romance comic book, as able to eat at all these restaurants with well as one of the earliest graphic novels, my friends for free. In the process of Mansion of Evil. He also edited doing that, I learned so much about numerous comics for Fawcett, including food that it enabled me to write several Captain Midnight; Don Winslow of the cookbooks. With my physical fitness Navy; This Magazine Is Haunted; training, I ran 14 miles at night for 46 Captain Video; Beware! Terror Tales; years. I would run, rain or shine, and Life Story; Strange Suspense Stories; even today I’m still exceedingly strong. Romantic Secrets; I’m still able to build Worlds of Fear; muscles, believe it or Mighty Mortal Sweethearts; and not. Former Fawcett editor Roy Ald,with a copy of the out-of-print Fawcett Companion, in a Nov. 2010 photo Wow Comics; and he snapped by Shaun Clancy while the interviewer was in New York to take part in a segment for the History created the humor SC: Did you work Detectives TV series that spotlighted Fawcett’s revolutionary Negro Romance comic, which Roy Ald feature “Ozzie and with weights? developed and edited; the episode was scheduled to air in July 2011 on PBS. The 90-year-old Mr. Ald left Babs.” Over the years Shaun in awe at the high level of physical fitness and abilities he had maintained throughout his life. he has also authored ALD: Yes. When I

was 21 years old, I had a job as a fitness director at a gymnasium in Manhattan. It was a high class social gym during the day, but at night I opened it up to the public. SC: Did working out with weights for so many years cause any wear and tear on your joints? ALD: I had no problems, except for later with my jogging. One of my knees gave me some trouble, and I never took care of it but would still continue to jog in spite of the problem. You probably won’t believe this, but I could have run 100 miles. SC: In a row? [both laugh] ALD: I’d have to take a couple of short breaks, but I could’ve run all through the night. My right knee finally went out on me. They tried talking me into having it fixed, but I’m a believer in natural healing and have always felt that whatever the problem was I could correct it myself. I never added anything unnatural to my body. SC: Well, your philosophy seems to be working! Were you drafted into World War II?

FCA [Fawcett Collectors Of America]

was detained and interrogated by them. They wanted to know everything about my background, social life, and affiliations before eventually releasing me… but I was on their “watch list” for the remainder of my service. I later found out that the installation where I had been held was the one that had been working on a major portion of the atom bomb. SC: How did you get involved with Fawcett Publications? ALD: When I got out of the service, I started writing the short stories that are placed in the center of comic books. I went up to Fawcett to sell them one and they paid me $25 for it. When I was there, I met Willie [Lieberson, Fawcett’s executive comics editor] and he asked me if I wanted a job. I accepted and that’s how I started working exclusively for Fawcett. At that time, a man coming out of the service could demand a premium, and so they made me an editor right away. SC: Who else was working there as an editor at that time?

ALD: Ginny [Provisiero] was there. And there was Mercedes Shull, who edited all the kid comics like Hoppy the Marvel Bunny. One of the primary editors there was Wendell Wow, What An Editor! Crowley who did the “Captain Above is the unique cover to Wow Comics #58 (Sept. 1947), drawn by Marvel” titles. Let me tell you a Jack Binder. For several years, Ald was the editor of Wow, which featured exploits of Mary Marvel, Commando Yank, Mr. Scarlet, and The Phantom story about Wendell. He came from SC: Did you ever draw upon that Eagle (as drawn by our very own Marc Swayze). Ald later created the a wealthy family, and his father experience with anything you wrote comedy feature “Ozzie and Babs” (as seen on this issue’s FCA cover), owned a lumber mill. Wendell was later on? which replaced Mary’s spot on Wow covers when the World’s Mightiest Girl like a big kid, and he absolutely departed from the book after #58. ALD: No, because a lot of it was loved what he was doing. He was [Shazam heroine TM & © 2011 DC Comics.] classified. 6' 7" and as thin as a rail, but cylindrical; from the ground up, he came SC: Do you think Pearl Harbor could have been avoided by the breaking to a point. One day, my secretary brought in her nephew to the office and of the codes being relayed from the mini-submarines to the Japanese introduced him to Wendell. The little boy looked up at him and said, fleets? “What a skinny head!” [both laugh]. Wendell didn’t bat an eye and put his hand on the lad’s head and said, “What an observant kid!” [both laugh] ALD: I think in order to work in Intelligence you have to be intelligent and, in that particular instance, we just had people failing to be intelligent, There came a day when Wendell’s father wanted him to come take over similar with what’s going on today with the ineptitude of the CIA and FBI. the family business. The job was completely different from what he had When I came back stateside, I was assigned as a writer to find reasons to done in comics, but he couldn’t refuse his father. I remember the day he restore the virtues of the various government agencies and obtain left; he was very close to tears because something he had loved was gone. coverage in newspapers. I would use a photographer to take pictures of He was a very kind and gentle soul. Around Halloween time he used to things like a woman working on a tractor and mention her getting get pumpkins from a farm in New Jersey and would bring them in for my government assistance. I would go to all the various Army bases and do children. Wendell married Dagny Weste, a very lovely blonde secretary at stories on the servicemen. Fawcett. SC: So, a form of propaganda? SC: Do you recall anything special about Will Lieberson? ALD: Yes, and I once got into trouble while doing it. I had a secretary ALD: Will did a Broadway play. I had invested in it, but it was more like a assigned to me whose responsibility was to call the various installations one-night stand! [both laugh] Willie had always said that, as far as he was and tell them I would be out there to visit. One time I arrived at a highly concerned, the play was a success because he finally had a play on classified engineering installation and the people there didn’t know I was Broadway. Not only did I invest in Will’s play, he had everyone investing going to be there because my secretary neglected to inform them, and so I in it! [laughs] The only way he was going to be able to fund the play was if ALD: Yes. I was stationed in England. Because of my writing background, I was placed in Intelligence and did things like codebreaking.

The Roy Ald Interview: “Is This What I Want to Do for the Rest of My Life?”

ALD: Probably! [both laugh] But Willie didn’t care. He got a Broadway play to his credits.

he had all his friends invest $300 each. He only had enough for it to run for one night. It was titled Springtime Folly. What a name for the critics!

SC: Did you just edit Fawcett’s comics, or did you also work on their magazines?

SC: I heard that one of the reviewers said that “Springtime Folly—is just that.” [both laugh] ALD: It was asking for trouble. Will’s friend Stanley Kaufman—a Fawcett writer who was also in the garment industry—wrote the play with him. [NOTE: Kaufman later became a major theatre critic for The New York Times.] SC: Was the play a big joke around the Fawcett offices? ALD: Anyone in the office who didn’t invest in it was totally unaware of what was going on. When Willie asked people to invest in it, you felt obligated to do so since it was a Broadway play and maybe it would be a hit.

Our Gang The Fawcett comics editorial/art staff had donned Captain Marvel sweatshirts for this 1947 group photo taken in their NYC office (with framed comics covers adorning the walls). Left to right: Bob Laughlin; Roy Ald; Virginia “Ginny” Provisiero; Edna Hagen; Kay Woods; Len Leone; Wendell Crowley; Elinor Mendelsohn; Will Lieberson. The photo was originally published half-cropped and fuzzy in a 1984 issue of FCA; our thanks to Len Leone for providing this superb scan of it.

ALD: Initially it was the comics, and incidentally, I started a lot of those titles. I also remember I used to submit ideas directly to the Fawcett brothers and had them do the first graphic novel book [Mansion of Evil]. It was awful, because they assigned someone else to write it rather than letting me do it. Joe Millard did such a bad job writing it that you could read through the book in ten minutes. When television came out, I also suggested to the Fawcetts that they do a TV magazine, which would’ve had the potential to be very profitable—but they never did it. After that, TV Guide came out.

SC: Marc Swayze said that he was one of the people who invested in the play—and he wasn’t even in town! [both laugh] Did you go to the opening night?

SC: Years later, Will Lieberson put out TV Junior magazine. Your idea must have stuck with him.

ALD: Yes, I did—the one and only night. I brought a friend of mine who’d also invested in it.

ALD: Mine would have been more profitable than everything else they tried combined.

SC: So, was the entire audience just the play’s investors?

SC: Let’s talk more about the Mansion of Evil paperback, which was published by Fawcett’s Gold Medal Book line in 1950. It had panel-formatted, full-color comic book artwork as its interior, making it one of the earliest graphic novels. ALD: Even though I conceived the idea and bypassed everyone to pitch it to the Fawcetts, they unfortunately didn’t allow me to write it and foolishly assigned it to Joe Millard. He was a big writer for their True Confessions magazine at the time. Millard screwed up the book and thought he could get away with only using pictures and word balloons to tell the story. Unfortunately, you couldn’t write a novel that way. What was needed were captions to better carry the story.

A Novel Idea The jury is still out on which book was actually the first “graphic novel,” but surely one of the contenders would be Fawcett’s experimental Gold Medal Book from 1950, the noir thriller Mansion of Evil, conceptualized and edited by Roy Ald… although the finished product was not really how he envisioned the project. The book had its share of problems, as detailed by Ald in this interview; they included later varied and uneven art styles supplied by fill-in artists Bud Thompson, George Evans, and other parties. The cover, far left, and adjacent scan of the opening page were illustrated by Bud Thompson, best remembered for his work on “Captain Marvel Jr.” [© 2011 respective copyright holders.]

FCA [Fawcett Collectors Of America]

SC: Arnold Drake wrote a similar book for St. John that same year, called It Rhymes With Lust. I’m not sure if your book pre-dates that one or not.

connection between St. John and Fawcett. SC: Are you suggesting that someone at St. John might have been aware of what you were working on?

ALD: That’s a definite. It was my project, and I was frustrated because it was such a waste of time and effort when it could have been really something.

ALD: Yes. Millard must have mentioned it to St. John. SC: The two books are similar, in that they are both crimerelated.

SC: Were there other books you did that were done in the same format?

ALD: Mansion of Evil turned out a million times better than what was originally being done with it; but they never talked to me about it, because I was very annoyed with the whole thing, since it didn’t resemble anything like what I had asked them to do with it. I was interested in doing something that would rate highly as serious fictional work and be right up against other fiction books. That’s how I envisioned it when I suggested doing the project. You can’t do a serious paperback book where someone could go through it in 15 minutes. They wisely changed the format after I suggested they place the artwork horizontally, thereby making it more suitable for that kind of illustrative work.

ALD: No, that was it. The book was a flop, and I knew it was going to be a waste of time. I even suggested that they turn the book sideways and have the art show that way instead of straight up and down, but they didn’t do it like that initially, which was a mistake. They were trying to be a little too experimental with it.

SC: In a 1996 FCA interview with George Evans, the artist recalled Fawcett’s “graphic novel in paperback size.” Evans said: “One day, Roy Ald called and asked if I would take on this project in mid-stream. The artist had a breakdown and couldn’t continue. Most of the work time was gone, but I As Seen On TV agreed to try. I drove in to pick Roy Ald initiated and edited the early issues of the Fawcett TV tie-in title, up the script and the finished Captain Video, penciled by George Evans and inked by Al Williamson. Ald was SC: Do you recall what pages to try and mimic the responsible for recruiting Evans to Fawcett prior to the artist’s brilliant stretch at happened to the book’s initial style. It was uncanny. There EC Comics, as Ald felt that Evans’ work “was a lot better than most of the artists artist who couldn’t handle the were 17 or so finished pages of we had.” [Captain Video TM & © 2011 respective copyright holders.] job? classy work, but on the back of each page was even lovelier ALD: Right from the beginning, the thought of doing so many illustraartwork storytelling. The artist could have had 30 to 38 pages done, and tions for a book of that length was very foreboding to him, and he was why his testing was so extensive in an unusable form is something I still already having enough problems with the script. He could have done a can’t grasp… but there’s another grim twist: I think I did three, maybe very good job on it, as he didn’t need any editorial direction at all. I can’t four pages and then was suddenly beset with an agonizing abscess where remember the guy’s name, but he wasn’t a very good artist and he lost his humans sit down. I took the drawing board to maximum height and contract with Fawcett over that book. He was a personal friend of [art tried to work while standing up, but I was in agony. I had to crush Roy director] Al Allard. Ald with the news that I couldn’t continue and sent the whole thing back via my wife. I then went to the hospital where I spent the week lying in SC: Do you remember George Evans? my bed on my belly. They had Carl Pfeuffer, artist of Tom Mix and Don ALD: Of course I do. I was the one who picked him up for Fawcett. I had Winslow [of the Navy], finish the book. He chose to emulate Alex respect for his work, and he was a lot better than most of the artists we Raymond’s style, and his stuff was beautiful. Of course, the graphic novel had. ended up being a hodge-podge of styles, but memories say it was still a very nice product which was sadly before its time.” Do you remember it SC: Evans had illustrated many of the horror/mystery and romance that way, Roy? books you edited, in addition to Captain Video and Motion Picture ALD: Yes, the history of the artist having a breakdown is correct… that definitely happened. At that point, the script had been so skimpy on captions that someone talked to Millard and had him rewrite it, so the published book was actually his second attempt at writing it. Since Millard was a freelancer and doing stories for Fawcett’s True Confessions, he would’ve definitely been in touch with St. John. which had a competitive magazine called Argosy, which he also wrote stories for. So there’s the

Comics. ALD: I am pretty sure I started Captain Video, and Motion Picture Comics was also my idea. There should be a lot of captions in them, which was what I was into. [Continued next issue!]

TwoMorrows Publishing Update 15%

SAVE

SUMMER 2011

WHE N YO ORD U ONL ER INE!

BACK ISSUE #52

BACK ISSUE #53

BACK ISSUE #54

• Digital Editions available: $2.95-$3.95! • Back Issue & Alter Ego now with color! • Lower international shipping rates!

Bronze Age Mystery Comics! Interviews with BERNIE WRIGHTSON, SERGIO ARAGONÉS, GERRY TALAOC, DC mystery writer LORE SHOBERG, MARK EVANIER and DAN SPIEGLE discuss Scooby-Doo, Charlton chiller anthologies, Black Orchid, Madame Xanadu art and commentary by TONY DeZUNIGA, MIKE KALUTA, VAL MAYERIK, DAVID MICHELINIE, MATT WAGNER, and a rare cover painting by WRIGHTSON!

“Gods!” Takes an in-depth look at WALTER SIMONSON’s Thor, the Thunder God in the Bronze Age, “Pro2Pro” interview with TOM DeFALCO and RON FRENZ, Hercules: Prince of Power, Moondragon, Three Ways to End the New Gods Saga, exclusive interview with fantasy writer MICHAEL MOORCOCK, art and commentary by GERRY CONWAY, JACK KIRBY, BOB LAYTON, and more, with a swingin’ Thor cover by SIMONSON!

“Liberated Ladies” eyeing female characters that broke barriers in the Bronze Age: Big Barda, Valkyrie, Ms. Marvel, Phoenix, Savage She-Hulk, and the sword-wielding Starfire. Plus a “Pro2Pro” interview with JILL THOMPSON, GAIL SIMONE, and BARBARA KESEL, art and commentary by JOHN BYRNE, GEORGE PEREZ, JACK KIRBY, MIKE VOSBURG, and more, with a new cover by BRUCE TIMM!

ORDER AT: www.twomorrows.com

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95 • Ships Oct. 2011

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95 • Ships Nov. 2011

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95 • Ships Jan. 2012

THE BEST IN COMICS AND LEGO MAGAZINES!

ALTER EGO #105

ALTER EGO #106

ALTER EGO #107

ALTER EGO #108

DRAW! #22

See comic art and script BEFORE and AFTER the Comics Code changes, with art by SIMON & KIRBY, DITKO, BUSCEMA, SINNOTT, GOULD, COLE, STERANKO, KRIGSTEIN, O’NEIL, GLANZMAN, ORLANDO, WILLIAMSON, HEATH, and others! Plus: FCA, Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, BILL SCHELLY, JIM AMASH interviews Timely/Atlas artist CAL MASSEY, and a new cover by JOSH MEDORS!

DICK GIORDANO through the 1960s—from freelance years and Charlton “Action-Heroes” to his first stint at DC! Art by DITKO, APARO, BOYETTE, MORISI, McLAUGHLIN, GIL KANE, and others, Dick’s final convention panel with STEVE SKEATES and ROY THOMAS, JIM AMASH interviews Charlton artist TONY TALLARICO, FCA with MARC SWAYZE and ROY ALD, MR. MONSTER’S COMIC CRYPT, BILL SCHELLY, GIORDANO cover, and more!

Big BATMAN issue, with an unused Golden Age cover by DICK SPRANG! SHEL DORF interviews SPRANG and JIM MOONEY, with rare and unseen Batman art by BOB KANE, JERRY ROBINSON, WIN MORTIMER, SHELLY MOLDOFF, CHARLES PARIS, and others! Part II of the TONY TALLARICO interview by JIM AMASH! Plus FCA, MR. MONSTER’S COMIC CRYPT, BILL SCHELLY, and more!

1970s Bullpenner WARREN REECE talks about Marvel Comics and working with EVERETT, BURGOS, ROMITA, STAN LEE, MARIE SEVERIN, ADAMS, FRIEDRICH, ROY THOMAS, and others, with rare art! DEWEY CASSELL spotlights Golden Age artist MIKE PEPPE, with art by TOTH, ANDRU, TUSKA, CELARDO, & LUBBERS, plus FCA, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY, cover by EVERETT & BURGOS, and more!

Interview with inker SCOTT WILLIAMS from his days at Marvel and Image to his work with JIM LEE, and PATRICK OLIFFE demos how he produces Spider-Girl, Mighty Samson, and digital comics. Also, MIKE MANLEY and BRET BLEVINS’ “Comic Art Bootcamp”, a “Rough Critique” of a newcomer’s work by BOB McLEOD, art supply reviews by “Crusty Critic” JAMAR NICHOLAS, and more!

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95 • Ships Oct. 2011

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95 • Ships Dec. 2011

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95 • Ships Jan. 2012

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95 • Ships March 2012

(84-page magazine with COLOR) $7.95 (Digital Edition) $2.95 • Ships Feb. 2012

LEE & KIRBY: THE WONDER YEARS (KIRBY COLLECTOR #58)

Special double-size book examines the first decade of the FANTASTIC FOUR, and the events that put into motion the Marvel Age of Comics! New interviews with STAN LEE, FLO STEINBERG, MARK EVANIER, JOE SINNOTT, and others, with a wealth of historical information and Kirby artwork!

(128-page tabloid trade paperback) $19.95 (Digital Edition) $5.95 • Ships Nov. 2011 (Subscribers: counts as two issues)

KIRBY COLLECTOR #59

BRICKJOURNAL #17

BRICKJOURNAL #18

BRICKJOURNAL #19

“Kirby Vault!” Rarities from the “King” of comics: Personal correspondence, private photos, collages, rare Marvelmania art, bootleg album covers, sketches, transcript of a 1969 VISIT TO THE KIRBY HOME (where Jack answers the questions YOU’D ask in ‘69), MARK EVANIER, pencil art from the FOURTH WORLD, CAPTAIN AMERICA, MACHINE MAN, SILVER SURFER GRAPHIC NOVEL, and more!

LEGO SPACE WAR issue! A STARFIGHTER BUILDING LESSON by Peter Reid, WHY SPACE MARINES ARE SO POPULAR by Mark Stafford, a trip behind the scenes of LEGO’S NEW ALIEN CONQUEST SETS that hit store shelves earlier this year, plus JARED K. BURKS’ column on MINIFIGURE CUSTOMIZATION, building tips, event reports, our step-by-step “YOU CAN BUILD IT” INSTRUCTIONS, and more!

Go to Japan with articles on two JAPANESE LEGO FAN EVENTS, plus take a look at JAPAN’S SACRED LEGO LAND, Nasu Highland Park—the site of the BrickFan events and a pilgrimage site for many Japanese LEGO fans. Also, a feature on JAPAN’S TV CHAMPIONSHIP OF LEGO, a look at the CLICKBRICK LEGO SHOPS in Japan, plus how to get into TECHNIC BUILDING, LEGO EDUCATION, and more!

LEGO EVENTS ISSUE covering our own BRICKMAGIC FESTIVAL, BRICKWORLD, BRICKFAIR, BRICKCON, plus other events outside the US. There’s full event details, plus interviews with the winners of the BRICKMAGIC CHALLENGE competition, complete with instructions to build award winning models. Also JARED K. BURKS’ regular column on minifigure customizing, building tips, and more!

(84-page tabloid magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships Feb. 2012

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships Nov. 2011

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships Jan. 2012

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $3.95 • Ships March 2012

SUMMER 2011 EDITION Hype and hullabaloo from the company celebrating the art & history of comics, LEGO®, and other fun stuff

Big Book Update You can always check our website for updated release dates of items you see listed in our full Catalog, but here’s some more specifics on some of our most highly anticipated new items: LOU SCHEIMER: CREATING THE FILMATION GENERATION We’re close to finished with this one, and hope to have it out by the end of 2011. Stay tuned! MODERN MASTERS: DARWYN COOKE Perhaps the most asked-about book we ever announced but haven’t yet produced, this was originally scheduled to ship a couple of years ago. We’re happy to announce that, as of this writing, we’ve just completed the last of the interviews with DARWYN for the book, and are close to announcing the new release date for it. Watch our home page for ordering info! THE QUALITY COMPANION Co-authors MIKE KOOIMAN and JIM AMASH are working feverishly to make the planned October release date for this look at the history of the classic Golden Age comics publisher! MATT BAKER: THE ART OF GLAMOUR This lavish book is progressing nicely as ERIC NOLEN-WEATHINGTON’s schedule has cleared up, and you should see it out for the holidays! Please stay tuned to our website (www.twomorrows.com) for current release dates on all our upcoming items, and thanks for your patience.

by publisher John Morrow

THE LATEST & GREATEST!

By now you’ve seen ALTER EGO: CENTENNIAL, the 100th issue of ROY THOMAS’ acclaimed magazine, which we produced as a double-size BOOK instead of the usual magazine format (complete with extra color pages). You’ve also encountered BACK ISSUE #50, which for the first time presented all 80 pages in FULL-COLOR (with a corresponding $1 cover price increase, but no extra cost for subscribers). We’ll be adding more color pages to our mags (with some issues completely full-color) over the next year, as the subject matter (and reader preference) demands. Speaking of Roy Thomas, he and Bill Schelly are working on a follow-up to their book ALTER EGO: BEST OF THE LEGENDARY COMICS FANZINE. It’ll feature the “Best of the Rest” of the original 1960s and ‘70s run of A/E, and should be out in 2012 from TwoMorrows. KEITH VERONESE lets you get PLUGGED IN, in our new book on comics greats who work in the video game industry. It features GERRY CONWAY, ROY THOMAS (him again!), and ELLIOT S! MAGGIN candidly talking about the early days of Atari along with comics pros JIMMY PALMIOTTI, CHRIS BACHALO, MIKE DEODATO, JOSHUA ORTEGA, and RICK REMENDER discussing their work on the current generation video game hits! There are interComics Professionals Working in the Video Game Industry views with other artists and writers who made the leap to working in video games full time, including an in-depth interview with TRENT KANIUGA (CreeD) about working as one of the architects of the long awaited Diablo III! Look for PLUGGED IN in early 2012.

New (& Old) Digital Editions Coming! Back for a limited time:

We’ve made available economically-priced Digital Editions of most of the back issues of our mags, but haven’t gotten to the first 49 issues of ALTER EGO yet. Going back and recreating each issue in digital form is taking more time than we anticipated when we produced our 2011 Catalog, but we should have those final ones posted later this year, so stay tuned! Also coming soon are new and improved Digital Editions of sold-out books in our Catalog, like TRUE BRIT, MR. MONSTER VOLUME ZERO, and others. We’re working on adding additional pages and MORE COLOR than in the original print versions, and those should be up soon as well. And now available are Digital Editions of two sold-out MODERN MASTERS volumes, on ARTHUR ADAMS and WALTER SIMONSON! Stay tuned for even more in the coming months.

www.twomorrows.com has FULL-COLOR DIGITAL EDITIONS of our magazines for $2.95-3.95! Print subscribers get the digital edition FREE, before print copies hit stores!

A distributor just discovered a couple of boxes of two of our sold-out books: THE ART OF GEORGE TUSKA by DEWEY CASSELL and the acclaimed JUSTICE LEAGUE COMPANION by MICHAEL EURY. If you missed either, now’s your LAST CHANCE to order the print editions, available at www.twomorrows.com.

2011 SUBSCRIPTION RATES: (with FREE Digital Editions)

Media Mail

1st Class Canada 1st Class Priority US Intl. Intl.

TwoMorrows News Today

EISNER DOC ON DVD & BLU-RAY NOW! Our old buddy JON B. COOKE and his brother ANDY of Montilla Productions have produced the award-winning documentary WILL EISNER: PORTRAIT OF A SEQUENTIAL ARTIST. It’s the definitive look at the life and art of the godfather of the American comic book, which premiered at the prestigious Tribeca Film Festival. It includes interviews with KURT VONNEGUT, MICHAEL CHABON, JULES FEIFFER, ART SPIEGELMAN, FRANK MILLER, STAN LEE, GIL KANE as well as the never-before-heard “Shop Talk” audio tapes featuring JACK KIRBY, HARVEY KURTZMAN, MILTON CANIFF, NEAL ADAMS, JOE KUBERT and others! It’s 96 minutes with plenty of bonus features, and TwoMorrows is proud to be able to offer it to our customers! The DVD is only $20, while the Blu-ray is $26, and both are available now at our website.

Pros@Cons! In 2011-2012, you can find us exhibiting at these conventions: COMIC-CON INTERNATIONAL (San Diego, CA, July) BRICKFAIR (Washington, DC, August) BRICKCON (Seattle, WA, October) NEW YORK COMICON (New York City, October) In 2012: WONDERCON (San Francisco, CA) HEROES CON (Charlotte, NC) BRICKMAGIC (our own event!) (in both Raleigh, NC and Orlando, FL) BRICKWORLD (Chicago, IL)

Digital Only

JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR (4 issues)

$50

$68

$65

$72

$150

$15.80

BACK ISSUE! (8 issues)

$60

$80

$85

$107

$155

$23.60

DRAW! (4 issues)

$30

$40

$43

$54

$78

$11.80

ALTER EGO (8 issues)

$60

$80

$85

$107

$155

$23.60

BRICKJOURNAL (6 issues)

$57

$72

$75

$86

$128

$23.70

For the latest news from TwoMorrows Publishing, log on to www.twomorrows.com/tnt To get e-mail updates of what’s new from TwoMorrows, sign up for our mailing list! http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/twomorrows ®

TwoMorrows. Celebrating The Art & History Of Comics. (& LEGO! ) TwoMorrows • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA • 919-449-0344 • FAX: 919-449-0327 • E-mail: twomorrow@aol.com • www.twomorrows.com