Alter Ego #153 by TwoMorrows Publishing

Roy Thomas' Go-With-The-FLO Comics Fanzine

REMEMBERING FABULOUS

No. 153

In the USA

AND THE MARVEL AGE OF COMICS (& BEYOND)!

July 2018

FLO STEINBERG

$9.95

BONUS! FLO'S SENSATIONAL SUCCESSOR 1

82658 00121

ROBIN GREEN

& HER 1971 MARVEL ESSAY FOR ROLLING STONE !

Vol. 3, No. 153 / July 2018 Editor

Roy Thomas

Associate Editors Bill Schelly Jim Amash

Design & Layout

Christopher Day

Consulting Editor John Morrow

FCA Editor

P.C. Hamerlinck J.T. Go (Assoc. Editor)

This issue is dedicated to the memory of

Comic Crypt Editor

Michael T. Gilbert

Editorial Honor Roll

Jerry G. Bails (founder) Ronn Foss, Biljo White Mike Friedrich

Proofreaders

Rob Smentek William J. Dowlding

Cover Artists

Contents

Writer/Editorial: “This Little Light Of Mine” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 Roy Thomas remembers Flo Steinberg as 1960s co-worker—and as friend in two centuries.

Comic Fandom Archive: “Fabulous Flo” & The 1st New York Comicons . . 5 Bill Schelly explores the lady’s fandom connection, which goes waaaay back.

Craig Wolden, Jack Kirby, Al Hartley, & Stan Goldberg

Cover Colorist

“It Was My First Job In The City!” – An Interview With Flo Steinberg . . . 8 The early days of the Marvel Age, recalled in 1984 by Stan Lee’s corresponding secretary.

25 Facts That Made Flo “Fabulous” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25

Tom Ziuko

With Special Thanks to: Neal Adams AM New York (newspaper) Heidi Amash Pedro Angosto Ger Apeldoorn Richard J. Arndt Bob Bailey J. Ballmann Mark Basso Jon Berk Tom Brennan Tom Brevoort Gary F. Brown Eliot R. Brown Bernie & Lucille Bubnis Jean Caccicedo Aaron Caplan Nick Caputo Dewey Cassell John Cimino Todd Tamanend Clark Maddy Cohen Comic Vine (website) Jon B. Cooke Chet Cox D.D. Degg Wayne DeWald Mark Evanier Justin Fairfax Linda Fite Shane Foley Janet Gilbert Grand Comics Database (website) Robin Green Larry Hama Heritage Comics Hero Initiative Sean Howe Sharon Karibian

Flo Steinberg & Carolyn Kelly

Jim Kealy Paul Kirschner David Anthony Kraft Lambiek Comiclopedia (website) Stan Lee Mark Lewis Art Lortie Ralph Macchio Jim MacQuarrie Mike Mikulovsky Brian K. Morris Denny O’Neil Barry Pearl Richard Pini Mike Ploog Gene Reed Ralph Reese Trina Robbins John & Virginia Romita Jim Salicrup Bob Schuller Stu Schwartzberg Marie Severin Walt Simonson Dann Thomas Mike Tiefenbacher Mike Tuohey Michael Uslan Dr. Michael J. & Maggie Vassallo James Warren Alan Weiss John Wells Kendall Whitehouse Craig Wolden Marv Wolfman Mike Zeck Dwight Jon Zimmerman

J. Ballmann & Co. serve up fascinating factoids about Flo—and her mysterious predecessors.

“Wait A Minute! FLO STEINBERG???” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34 Dr. Michael J. Vassallo was the lady’s fan—and friend—and dentist!

Tributes, Si! Tears, No! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 41 Pros and fans alike pay tribute to Flo Steinberg and the Marvel-ous mark she left on comics.

A Few Minutes With Robin Green . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 54 For Flo’s ambitious and talented successor, Marvel Comics was barely the beginning!

“Face Front!!! You’re On The Winning Team!” . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 61 Robin Green’s groundbreaking piece on Marvel, first seen in Rolling Stone magazine, 1971.

Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt! “Dan Adkins & The Incredible Tracing Machine” Revisited . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 77 Michael T. Gilbert examines the borrowings, homages, and swipes of a skillful 1960s artist.

Tribute To Carolyn Kelly . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 83 re: [correspondence, comments, & corrections] . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 85 FCA [Fawcett Collectors Of America] #212 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 89 P.C. Hamerlinck presents Part III of Mike Tiefenbacher’s “Captain Marvel ©opyright ©risis!”

On Our Cover: We were pondering what would make the best cover for this issue when longtime reader and benefactor Jim Kealy e-mailed us a scan, from the infinite Internet, of a fine pencil drawing by Craig Wolden that filled the bill perfectly! It depicted the late and much-missed Flo Steinberg in the dual role of Marvel “corresponding secretary”—and of The Invisible Girl, as per 1978’s What If? #11. Through Jim, Bob

Bailey, and Sharon Karibian, we contacted Craig, who is art director at a production company in Bloomington, Illinois. Happily, he was amenable to our using his illo. We combined it with some artwork Flo knew well: the framing hero-figures that, for much of the 1960s, graced Marvel’s official stationery, featuring art by Al Hartley (Patsy Walker & Hedy Wolfe), Stan Goldberg (Millie the Model), and Jack Kirby (just about everything else). The result, we hope you’ll agree, is a fitting tribute to a remarkable and beloved professional. [Main illo © 2018 Craig Wolden; Marvel artwork TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Above: As artist/writer Larry Hama points out on p. 48, legendary comics illustrator Wally Wood used Flo as the model for the character Madame Toy in his comics feature Cannon. See the aforementioned page for more about that long-running series. [TM & © Estate of Wally Wood.]

Alter Ego TM is published 6 times a year by TwoMorrows, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Roy Thomas, Editor. John Morrow, Publisher. Alter Ego Editorial Offices: 32 Bluebird Trail, St. Matthews, SC 29135, USA. Fax: (803) 826-6501; e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Six-issue subscriptions: $65 US, $99 Elsewhere, $30 Digital Only. All characters are © their respective companies. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter © Roy Thomas. Alter Ego is a TM of Roy & Dann Thomas. FCA is a TM of P.C. Hamerlinck. Printed in China. ISSN: 1932-6890. FIRST PRINTING.

Fabulous FLO STEINBERG – Part 1

writer/editorial

“This Little Light Of Mine” didn’t think I’d be putting together this issue of Alter Ego this soon. If ever.

To my mind, Flo Steinberg, who passed away last July 17th at the way-too-young age of 78, was going to go on forever as this nearly-first friend I had made in New York City in 1965… as someone Dann and I would have an enjoyable, laugh-punctuated dinner with every few years when we were in Manhattan… as a bubbly, high-pitched voice on the other end of my phone a few times a year. An energetic and enthusiastic and often wittily sarcastic woman with a wonderful, wonderful smile. Flo was the first Marvel staffer I met in person, since she was the one designated to venture into Magazine Management’s waiting room during her lunch hour on Wednesday, July 7, 1965, to hand me the “writer’s test” which, the previous day, Stan Lee had telephonically challenged me to take. I recognized at once, of course, that she was the “Fabulous Flo Steinberg” whose image had appeared in the previous year’s Marvel Tales Annual #1; and I’d heard her voice months earlier on the first MMMS record. (Not until the Bullpen Bulletins page in Marvel’s mags cover-dated January 1966, seen at right, would the “Fabulous Flo” sobriquet again appear in print.) That Friday morning, slightly less than 48 hours later, the National/DC switchboard put a phone call through to me (probably the only one I got during my eight-day stint as “Superman” editor Mort Weisinger’s assistant); and, after I identified myself, I heard a voice say, “Hi, Roy.” “Hi, Flo,” I said immediately. Flo’s voice, while it wasn’t quite high-pitched enough to migrate over into a canines-only registry, was very distinctive. She giggled at having been recognized. “I’m being a spy today,” she went on. She said Stan hoped I could come over to meet him on my lunch hour. I said I would, and that was that. Over the next three years, working in the same room with Flo (and production manager Sol Brodsky) was an enjoyable experience. They kept the tone reasonably light most of the time, even though a lot of serious work was going on—phone calls to engravers and printers and freelancers, sending comics pages either to the Comics Code or occasionally direct to the printers when an issue was so late that we had to simply hope and pray that Mrs. Guy Percy Trulock or Len Darvin and their Code-applying cadre wouldn’t find anything so potentially harmful to America’s youth

that we’d have to either call the pages back or send a corrective “patch” to the printer and hope for the best. Flo and I didn’t socialize a lot outside the office—but there were the parties. Even early on, I hosted a couple of small ones, so thrilled was I at being in the comics field and hobnobbing both with equally new pros and with guys whose work I’d grown up admiring. And I vividly recall one 1966 housewarming party at writer/friend Dave Kaler’s new Upper West Side digs at which Flo, fellow writers Gary Friedrich and Denny O’Neil, and I—none of us the better off for the drinks we’d been imbibing—wound up “harmonizing” on the old folkish-spiritual “This Little Light of Mine” at the tops of our respective lungs. Why? I have no idea now, and probably didn’t then. Recent Marvel émigré Steve Ditko was there, too, but, amazingly, he didn’t join us in song. Actually, Flo and I even went out on one “date,” sort of. Having only recently become a Bob Dylan fan (the moment I first played “Like a Rolling Stone” on an album I’d actually purchased as a Christmas gift for Denny), I bought two tickets to see the erstwhile Bobby Zimmerman perform a one-night stand on Feb. 5, 1966, in White Plains, NY—in The X-Men’s Westchester County backyard—and I asked Flo if she’d like to go. We took the train up there and back and had a great time… even though Dylan didn’t sing any of the numbers we’d hoped to hear him perform (an experience in which a Nobel Prize committee would similarly bask, half a century later). Flo was a hard worker, appreciated both by Stan, for whom she officially worked, and by Sol Brodsky, for whom she actually worked much of the time. For Sol, she’d have to phone just about anyone and everyone connected to the comics process: Stan or me on our days writing at home, freelancers, engravers, colorseparators, printers, the Photostat place, the typesetting shop,

“The Times They Are A-Changing” (Left:) Flo and Roy in the Marvel offices, circa late 1965. (Right:) Flo and Roy on a Manhattan street, a few years into the 21st century. Photo by Dann Thomas.

“This Little Light Of Mine”

woman, still a little on the sunny side of thirty, who needed to test her wings and see what life might offer her besides answering the phone and endlessly fending off youngsters who wanted to come up and hang out at the Bullpen.

“Like A Rolling Stone” A sample ticket for the Bob Dylan concert held in White Plains, NY, on Saturday, Feb. 5, 1966—and a poster therefor. Thanks to Art Lortie for tracking this event date down for Ye Ed and for providing these scans. [© the respective copyright holders.]

the Comics Code Authority. One guy Sol frequently had her call sported the name “Blackie Seymour,” a moniker that invariably made me chuckle. Once, when Sol asked her to phone someone he hadn’t had her contact before, she emitted a mildly pitiful whine: “Oh, Sol, you know I don’t like to call new people!” Actually, Sol once told me his version of how Flo got her job in 1963—which differed in true Rashomon fashion from the way Flo herself remembers it on pp. 5 & 9: Stan had put a help-wanted ad in the newspapers for a “corresponding secretary” or whatever, and Flo was one of the first—if not the first—applicants for the job. Although still technically a freelancer, Sol was interviewing her (at Stan’s behest) in the production area when he saw Stan beckoning to him from somewhere nearby. Excusing himself, Sol scurried over to Stan. Stan asked him who the attractive girl was, and Sol replied that she was applying for the secretarial position. Stan asked if she seemed qualified; Sol said yes… in fact, she’d even mentioned that she’d briefly worked for the phone company, cold-calling people in some capacity. Apparently, according to Sol, it was that last bit that sold Stan. He suggested Sol simply tell her she was hired instead of wasting time talking to anyone else. Sol nodded and went back to tell Flo the job was hers. He then escorted her over to Stan and introduced her to her new boss. “Hi, Stan,” Flo effused, in that high-decibel voice we all got to know and love but which we always secretly suspected could have been channeled to shatter glass. Sol said that the look of horror on Stan’s face—which somehow Flo mercifully missed—was priceless. Stan had suddenly realized that he’d just hired this person with a high-register voice—a major part of whose job would be answering the phone, being the first voice you’d hear if you called Marvel! But Stan quickly learned to live happily with his impulsive decision… though I’m not sure he ever fully appreciated exactly how much of an asset Flo was to the company in those early years, in terms of relations with fans and freelancers. I remember that it somehow seemed the end of an idyllic era when Flo told me in early 1968 that she had given her two weeks’ notice. I guess I couldn’t imagine anyone wanting to bail on a job at Marvel… but of course Flo wasn’t an aspiring comics writer or artist or even production assistant. She was a high-spirited young

But there was a problem with Flo’s first intended replacement. A young woman was hired (I’m sure she was interviewed at the office, but I remember nothing about her) and agreed to come in the following Monday so that Flo could train her in the job. When Monday rolled around, she phoned up to say she was indisposed in some way, but would be in the next Monday for sure. Flo turned in her chair, smiled at me, and said, “I don’t know anything about that, but I’m leaving in two weeks.” The following Monday morning, the young woman called in to say she’d changed her mind and wouldn’t be taking the job. Flo smiled at me again: “Friday’s still my last day.” And it was. That’s probably when Robin Green got hired, as noted later this issue. Flo and I kept up our real if not close friendship after she left Marvel; it wasn’t too difficult, since she continued to run in some of the same social circles as before. When we learned a couple of years later that she was moving to California, her friends tossed a big party to send her on her way; I have this vague recollection it may even have been held at first wife Jeanie’s and my Manhattan apartment. We were all sorry to see her go… and happy when, a year afterward, she returned. She claimed later she’d have come back sooner, but she was embarrassed because of the big fuss made over her when she’d left. She needn’t have been; we were all just overjoyed at her return. I’m surprised somebody didn’t adapt the lyrics of the song “Hello, Dolly” and sing them to her: “It’s so good to have you back where you belong!” For all I know, they did. It was good, too, when she began working for Warren Publishing’s Captain Company, the black-&-white comics firm’s merchandising division, since that kept her in comics and made it all the more likely we’d run into her now and again. On occasion, after she moved into her rent-controlled apartment down in the 20s, the two of us would have lunch. She would, I believe, occasionally come to the once-a-month comics-pro-and-fan assemblages, some of which I hosted. Our communications became more hit-and-miss for some years after I moved first to Los Angeles, then to South Carolina. But phone rates have tumbled considerably from what they were back in the ’60s and ’70s, and we still kept in touch, though on a decreased frequency. Someone has said that, in her later years, Flo must’ve used some sort of rotation chart, because she managed to keep up contact with a surprising number of old friends. I learned about her severe health problems some years back, naturally; but Flo clearly never wanted to talk about that. So we didn’t. After I revived Alter Ego in 1999 and made certain she was on the permanent comps list, Flo and I again began to talk a bit more often by phone. “Oh, hi, Roy!” she would invariably say, whether she had phoned me (as usually happened, because something in the latest issue had struck her as funny or pithy) or I had phoned her (as would occur if I hadn’t heard from her for a few months and suddenly realized that nothing but her friendly voice would do it for me). In recent years, she enjoyed going back to work for Marvel as a proofreader, though she was often scathing concerning the grammatical and spelling abilities of some of the new generation.

writer/editorial

She liked the job best, I know, before her colleague Jack Abel died; he’d been an inker for Marvel since the mid-’60s. One day in the fall of 2016, she told me she’d informed Marvel she wouldn’t be coming in that winter; it was just too cold to bother. If they welcomed her back come spring, that’d be fine, but her stance was non-negotiable. I guess Marvel accepted it. Like many of her friends who were a bit outside her inner circle, I didn’t know about the last and fateful downturn in her health until I abruptly heard—only a few weeks after we’d last talked by phone— that she was in the hospital, and that the prognosis wasn’t good. Somehow, that information just refused to register. Flo was barely older than I was; besides, I’d known her the whole of my professional life. She was a fixture. She was a rock. She wasn’t going anywhere, no matter what doctors said. All the same, I sat down at once and drew a get-well card, making reference to that Dylan concert now more than a half-century in our mutual rear-view mirror, and mailed it off.

“But I Was So Much Older Then…” The handmade card Roy sent Flo in July 2017… but it arrived too late.

By the time it reached the hospital address I’d been given… Flo had left us. She never saw the card. That hardly matters in the greater scheme of things… but I wish she had. The notion of one final, fleeting communique between us would’ve given me solace. I suspect she might’ve remembered our seeing Dylan. I’m pretty sure she’d have smiled.

Did I mention that Fabulous Flo Steinberg had a wonderful, wonderful smile?

Bestest,

PS: Unfortunately, due to all the material related to Flo and to Rockin’ Robin Green, we had to delay the fifth chapter of John Broome’s 1998 memoir till next issue.

COMING IN AUGUST NOW 100 PAGES!

154

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Fabulous FLO STEINBERG – Part 2

Comic Fandom Archive

“FABULOUS FLO” & The First New York Comicons by Bill Schelly

[Abridged & edited from his “Sense of Wonder” column #8 for Comics Source #8 (Jan. 1996), published by Warren Ventures Corp., edited by Jon R. Warren.]

hen one remembers the glory days of comic fandom in the 1960s, it’s impossible to overlook the fact that many fans’ interest in comics was a result of the meteoric rise of Marvel Comics. Would the fledgling comic fan movement have gotten off the ground had National/DC entirely dominated the scene? I don’t think so. After Fantastic Four #1 debuted in August 1961, it soon became apparent that readers loved Stan Lee’s bickering, realistic protagonists. To his surprise, Lee had begun receiving unusually intelligent letters, enough to institute the Fantastic Four Fan Page in FF #3. By the time Amazing Spider-Man #1 appeared, Stan could no longer handle the mail himself. Enter: Flo Steinberg, whose perky, vivacious personality earned her the sobriquet for which she will always be remembered: “Fabulous Flo.” In a recent conversation with Flo, she described how she got the job as Stan Lee’s assistant in March 1963. “I grew up in Boston, got a Liberal Arts degree from the University of Massachusetts, and [at age 23] came to New York to look for a job.” An employment agency sent her to interview for an office job (“gal Friday”) at a publishing house called Magazine Management. Flo had no idea she was about to become a part of the comics industry: “Although I’d always liked comics as a kid, I wasn’t looking for comics work, per se. Magazine Management was a very large company. So I dressed up in my pearls and gloves, and nervously entered the building. I was interviewed by Stan himself. There was no one else! Marvel had just one little cubby hole on the floor.” “He was so nice,” Flo recalled of Stan. He described the job: answering the phone, opening the mail, keeping tabs on the artists, sending material to the Comics Code Authority and then to the engraver in Connecticut. He offered Steinberg a job then and there. “He said, ‘Well, if you’d like to start’ ... and I did! It was that simple. I think the job paid $60 a week, which was the going rate in 1963.” At the time, there were no other comics staffers at Marvel, though Sol Brodsky would come in once a week to prepare the house ads. All the artists worked at home. The sudden influx of letters impressed and heartened Stan and Flo. Increasing sales figures told one story, but the letters revealed that the Marvel super-heroes were appealing to a different breed of reader. “It was a shock to us, a real surprise, when we noticed the readership getting older,” Flo said. “We would get letters from college students, and servicemen ... or even [laughs] the occasional girl!” Just as their readers took the comics seriously, Stan and Flo

“Fabulous” Flo Steinberg & Stan “The Man” Lee The only two Marvel staffers in March 1963! The photo of Stan was taken in fall of ’65 for the inside front cover of Fantastic Masterpieces #1 (Feb. ’66)… the pic of Flo in December ’64. In Comics Interview #17, where the latter first saw print, she said of it, “A bit of cheesecake…. I was so embarrassed to have my slip showing! Nylons and heels were de rigueur at the time.” Stan seems to be projecting a Sinatra-style image, à la the film Pal Joey and various album covers. Thanks to Barry Pearl for the Stan photo scan. [Stan pic © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Comic Fandom Archive

took the letters seriously. Every letter was opened, and in the early days Stan read them all. Each letter was answered by a distinctive blue postcard, which thanked the reader for his or her interest. “When the mail got really too tremendous, I would sort through them and put the letters of more than passing interest into huge folders, and that’s what Stan would see,” Flo explained. “We really enjoyed looking through all the fanzines that started coming in. To me, it was amazing that there were all those people out there who cared enough to put together a little magazine about comic books— who could write about them, and draw them. It was another confirmation that some people really appreciated our comics, and took them seriously. The fanzines were great! I tried to write a little thank you note for each one we received.” Stan Lee gave boosts to comic fandom in the FF Fan Page. He facilitated contacts between fans by printing full addresses of letter-writers, as had Julius Schwartz at DC. He plugged fanzines like G.B. Love’s Rocket’s Blast and Ronn Foss’ Comicollector. Those early FF letter columns printed many letters from participants in comicdom, including Alan Weiss, Rick Norwood, Buddy Saunders, Fred Bronson, Landon Chesney, Paul Gambaccini, Steve Gerber, Mark Gruenwald, Dave Cockrum, and Roy Thomas. Yet, when Bernie Bubnis and Ron Fradkin held the first New York comicon on July 27, 1964, Stan did not attend. Flo explained: “Stan had to keep writing the comics. He took a great deal of pride in meeting deadlines—we all did—and he was writing everything. When the invitation came in, I volunteered to go and represent Marvel.” So Fabulous Flo acted as Marvel’s good will ambassador at the 1964 New York Con, which was held at the Workman’s Circle Building on 4th Avenue, near Union Square: “It was a typically hot summer day in New York. These were the days before air-conditioning was common. I was accompanied by a young intern working at Marvel named Dave Twedt. Steve Ditko was there, though he didn’t say much. But it was pleasant. There was a nice feeling of camaraderie. It was fun chatting with the fans.” Twedt, acting as Stan’s proxy, asked for questions, and soon was fielding them from all sides. He handled the questions with some alacrity, though he referred a fan’s questions about how much the artists got paid to Steve Ditko. Ditko declined to answer with a shake of the head.

The 1964 comicon lasted just four hours, from 2:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. Most of the fifty or so attendees came away with some kind of door prize (original art had been donated by DC), and all sported special metal buttons (designed by Art Tripp) emblazoned with the words “Comicon 1964.” Needless to say, today those buttons are true collector’s items. Flo also attended the more elaborate 1965 New York Comicon, organized by David Kaler. On July 31, 1965, close to 200 fans converged on the Greenwich Village site of the Hotel Broadway Central. “The 1965 comicon was the ‘real thing,’” Flo remembered. “There were several panels with professionals, and a costume contest. I remember it was so hot in there. Back then men wore suits and women dressed up, which made it even worse. In the photograph, you’ll notice Dave’s wearing just a T-shirt and slacks.” The photo that Flo refers to is somewhat fuzzy. It records the moment when she and Kaler were about to cut the large comicon cake. “Dave really did a good job organizing the con,” Flo recalled. He went on to organize NYC cons in 1966 and 1967 before handing the reins over to Phil Seuling when the affair became too big and elaborate for him to handle. Seuling ran the New York cons into the 1980s. Prominent pros in attendance in 1965 were Otto Binder, Gardner Fox, Gil Kane, Jim Warren, Bill Finger, Murphy Anderson, Bill Harris, and newcomer Roy Thomas. A number of comicbook dealers hawked their wares during special periods of time set aside for selling and trading. Although appreciative of the affordability of the hotel rooms (a single room with a private bath cost $6 a night), fans were a bit bemused by the seedy quality of the Hotel Broadway Central. “It was a real dump!” Flo recalls, laughing. “I seem to remember the elevators were creaky and old, and it just seemed like it was going to fall down. And it did!” In actual fact, the hotel collapsed to the ground several years later, for no apparent reason. For Flo Steinberg, those early years at Marvel were pure magic. “Stan was happy. Sales were up, and people appreciated what we were doing. The fanzines and comicons were such fun. It was an exciting time. I lucked into the job, and I’ll always be grateful to Stan. He was the nicest person in the world to work for.” Why, then, did she quit in March 1968? “Because I couldn’t get a $5 raise!” Flo answered. “[Publisher] Martin Goodman just felt certain positions didn’t get raises. Stan did his best... but he wasn’t the boss then. Plus, I was thinking, ‘What’s going to happen to my future?’ I didn’t really have a craft or profession or anything. So I thought it would be good for me to go get a ‘real job.’ I was hired by the American Petroleum Institute. I became a technical editor and proofreader.” In the early 1970s, after a brief move to California, Steinberg ran Captain Company for Jim Warren for a few years, and published her own one-shot underground comic book, Big Apple

Letters We Get! The very first letter printed on the very first Fantastic Four letters page (in #3, March 1962) featured a missive from future pro artist Alan Weiss, as well as one from comics dealer Bill Sarill—and (cut off here) a fake letter signed by “S. Brodsky.” Chances are it was Brodsky who drew the art that filled out the page, since The Human Torch doesn’t seem to be a Jack Kirby figure. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

“Fabulous Flo” & The First New York Comicons

Comix, with work by Wally Wood and others. Her big break came when she landed the position of managing editor of an arts magazine published by the late Al Demick, a highly challenging job which lasted for thirteen years. Finally, Steinberg established herself in the publishing field, and satisfied her career objectives. Now, in 1995, “Fabulous Flo” has returned to the comic book industry on a part-time basis. “I’m working with Jack Abel, proofreading books for Marvel about four days a week. It’s great to be back at Marvel. Every once in a while, Mark Gruenwald will ask me, ‘Do you remember back in the 1960s, when this happened, or that happened?’ ... and I have to tell him, ‘Mark, I just thought of working at Marvel as a good job. Who knew what it would become?’”

Let Them Eat Cake! (Above:) Flo and Dave Kaler cutting the cake at the ’65 con. Photo courtesy of Bill Schelly. (Right:) The flip cover of Alter Ego #20 (Jan. 2003), which featured the most extensive coverage ever of that con, including transcriptions of its two pro panels. The cover featured Schelly’s caricatures of writers Otto Binder, Gardner Fox, Mort Weisinger, and Bill Finger, plus hero images by C.C. Beck, Joe Kubert, Wayne Boring, and Mart Nodell. [Shazam hero, Hawkman, Superman, and Green Lantern TM & © DC Comics; other art © Bill Schelly.]

Bill Schelly’s newest book is Sense of Wonder: My Life in Comic Fandom—The Whole Story, a greatly expanded version of his 2001 memoir. Visit his website www.billschelly.net to review a full listing of his in-print books, which can be ordered there. The site also features excerpts from other books, photos, images from his portfolio, and contact info for Bill.

award-winning writer bill schelly relates how

comics and fandom saved his life in this engrossing memoir that begins in the burgeoning comic fandom movement of the 1960s and follows the twists and turns of his life as a fan and writer to the present day. Along the way, you'll experience his close encounters with such legendary comic book creators as

JACK KIRBY, STEVE DITKO, JULIUS SCHWARTZ, GIL KANE, JOE KUBERT, and many more. ÒFOND, FUNNY and nostalgic, like going home again.Ó ÑGEORGE R. R. MARTIN, author of Game of Thrones

ÒIntimate and heart-warming!Ó ÑPAUL LEVITZ, Executive Producer, The Dark Knight Rises

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Fabulous FLO STEINBERG – Part 3

“It Was My First Job In The City!”

The Early Days Of The Marvel Age, As Remembered By FLO STEINBERG—Corresponding Secretary To STAN LEE Conducted by Dwight Jon Zimmerman & Jim Salicrup, 1984

A/E

EDITOR’S INTRO: This is one of the first and longest true interviews ever conducted with Marvel’s beloved “corresponding secretary.” It appeared, under the title “Fabulous Flo Steinberg,” in Comics Interview magazine #17 (Nov. 1984), published by David Anthony Kraft and © 1984 by Fictioneer Books, Ltd. Reprinted by permission. A few of the photos and illustrations included in this edition appeared with that first printing; many others have been added. Accompanying the interview was a full transcription of the original Merry Marvel Marching Society recording from 1965, which has been omitted here. Thanks to Art Lortie and Brian K. Morris for their help in obtaining an editable e-file of the manuscript…. 1984 INTRO BY DWIGHT JON ZIMMERMAN: I met Flo Steinberg while working on the Sol Brodsky biography for Marvel Age, and during the course of her interview discovered a warm, thoughtful woman who, though she has been away from the comicbook business for many years, still keeps in contact with many of her friends. And, because Flo recalled more events about the early days of Marvel than could be included in Sol’s biography, I arranged to interview her later for the express purpose of finding out what the early years of Marvel were like and what she is doing now. Several short weeks later, Jim Salicrup and I were sitting in Flo’s memorabilia-laden apartment discussing the subject warm to us all—the early years at Marvel…. JIM SALICRUP: I’ll sit back and relax and Dwight will ask the questions... DWIGHT JON ZIMMERMAN: …and Jim will provide the Howard Cosell commentary. FLO STEINBERG: You’ll laugh when I say something funny, right? JS: I’ll say “laughter,” and they’ll write that in the magazine. Then people will really think we were laughing.

Dwight Jon Zimmerman & Jim Salicrup Conductors of the 1984 interview. Since then, Zimmerman has gone on to author various books, including in conjunction with former Fox News host Bill O’Reilly, while Salicrup had a long career as a comics editor at Marvel and Topps, and currently heads Papercutz, which publishes a revived Tales from the Crypt, et al. Thanks to Comic Vine for the Salicrup photo.

DJZ: Okay! We are in the memento-strewn apartment of Flo Steinberg with her illustrations from Trina Robbins, photos of John Verpoorten, drawings by Herb Trimpe.

“Fabulous Flo” in artist Herb Trimpe’s biplane—plus panels penciled and scripted by Jack “King” Kirby in What If? #11 (Oct. 1978); inks by Mike Royer & Bill Wray. In the comic, Flo comes back to sound a warning to Stan and Jack, in the offbeat story “What If The Fantastic Four Were the Original Marvel Bullpen?” When he conceived the notion and gave it to Kirby to write and draw, editor Roy Thomas specified that Flo should become The Invisible Girl. The above photo appeared on the first page of this interview when it was printed in Comics Interview #17, so we decided to start out with a color version! [What If? page TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

JS: This is the part you’re supposed to write in the introduction, Dwight! DJZ: I don’t like writing that section—I prefer to just talk about it. By the way, Flo, Jack Abel says “Hi. “ STEINBERG: Oh, thank you! DJZ: Flo, we’d like to start the interview with when and how you were hired by Marvel. STEINBERG: Well, it was March of ‘63. I had just come to New York from Boston where I was born and raised and schooled. I had come to New York City and moved into one of the “Y’s” [YWCAs]

“It Was My First Job In The City!”

Jack Kirby used to do. And the girls’ comics like Millie the Model and Patsy Walker. The Fantastic Four was probably starting then. But, the atmosphere was really low-key. [A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: Flo’s memory tends to be a bit hazy re when this or that comic started—e.g., F.F. had been going since summer of 1961—but this doesn’t affect the basic narrative.] DJZ: Stan was low-key? STEINBERG: Oh, no! Stan always had this high energy level. It’s just that the office was very small. There was just a small amount of comics to get out. And Stan wrote them all. And as I remember, Steve Ditko, Jack Kirby, or Don Heck, or Dick Ayers—a small group—drew them. Sol Brodsky would come in to do production work. DJZ: So everybody except you and Stan was freelancing—there was no production staff.

Millie The Marvel (Left to right:) No pearls or gloves, but this Stan Goldberg “Modeling Tips” pin-up page from Millie the Model #136 (April 1966) roughly dovetails with what Flo said about the kind of outfit she needed to wear to job interviews in the mid-1960s. Thanks to Barry Pearl. Next to it is a story-panel from that issue; “Stan G.” co-plotted and drew, with a Roy Thomas script—but the fashion note at bottom was written by Flo Steinberg. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] (Below:) Two talented artists Flo worked with in the 1960s: Stan Goldberg (on left) and Joe Sinnott.

and I started job-hunting. It was all through agencies in those days. I went on different interviews, stuff like that, in my traditional interview outfit of a black dress and pearls and gloves. It was a different time, back then. [laughter] One was a secretarial assistant at this magazine company. And I went up and talked to this man, Stan Lee. And the interview was in this teeny little cubbyhole of an office. Well, let’s see, the offices were always on Madison Avenue. This might have been the farthest one uptown… 650, no—625 Madison Avenue—after 60th Street, anyway. And the whole Magazine Management company was on one big floor with partitions set up. And Marvel Comics was the teeniest little office on the floor. There was Stan and his desk, then another small desk. At that time, as I remember, it was mostly bimonthly comics. The monster comics like what Steve Ditko and

STEINBERG: Yes, that’s right, it was just the two of us. There really wasn’t much work in my job. There wasn’t much fan mail coming in at the time. The most fan mail that came in was for the girls’ books—the little outfits pages that appeared in the comics would feature clothing designs suggested by the readers. And I wrote all the little captions for those. Stan Goldberg or Al Hartley would draw the actual designs and then we’d have these letters from people who sent designs. And if someone sent in a design for a dress, we’d match it with the drawing of a dress, a bathing suit suggestion with a bathing suit drawing, etc. And then I’d write the caption saying “darling dress by—” and put that person’s name in. So the kids got their names in the comic. The drawings bore no relation to the designs the kids sent in, of course. Trina Robbins is doing a teenage book now for Marvel. It’s not on the schedule yet, from what I hear, but it’ll have fashion pages and stuff like that in it. In fact, I think her character’s aunt will be Millie the Model. As for how the comics were produced back then, Stan would write the synopsis and the artist would go home and draw the story. He’d bring the art into the office, and then Stan would write the final story. Artie Simek and Sam Rosen were the only letterers. And they’d come in to pick up and drop off work. But it was not that hectic. There’d always be time to sit around and chat. Artie, he’s dead now, but he used to play the spoons and the harmonica. Sam never came in. His brother Joe would always be the one picking up and delivering the work. Stan Goldberg would come in for the coloring. And… well, I don’t remember being very busy in the very beginning. Stan and I used to argue over who would address the envelopes that would go over to the Comics Code. The people over at Magazine Management would make fun of us. It was a big organization back then. The only time the different departments ever really came together was when we heard that President Kennedy had been killed. Everybody sort of dropped

The Early Days Of The Marvel Age, As Remembered By Flo Steinberg

Steve Ditko

Jack “King” Kirby

in the ’60s.

in the mid-1960s. Thanks to Sean Howe.

On Sale Right Now! When Flo applied for her job in March of ’63, the covers had just begun to sport the name “Marvel Comics Group.” On sale would have been the monthly Fantastic Four #15 (June ’63), with art by Jack Kirby & Dick Ayers, and the bimonthly Amazing Spider-Man #2 (May ’63), with art by Steve Ditko. Courtesy of the Grand Comics Database. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

everything and came together to listen to the radio reports. Then we moved to another building. And that was when things really started happening. Spider-Man came along… and all of a sudden fan mail started coming in —which it never really had before. We didn’t have letters pages in the early comics. It was welcome, but the mail was really unexpected. We didn’t know what to do with all of it. And people started coming up to the office. And I would have to go out and see what they wanted. And little kids would try to run by me and get into the office. They were so determined. And I would have to trip them—you really had to trip some of them to stop them from getting into the office. I remember New York people like Marv Wolfman and Len Wein coming up as fans to the office. But we never let anyone into the office. An office was an office. Everyone thought that it was nice that the kids were coming up, but at the same time, these visits didn’t have anything to do with what we were doing—which was producing the comics. This was a business, y’know. JS: What was the attitude that Stan and the artists had toward their work? Did they regard it as “just a job” or… STEINBERG: Oh, everyone loved the work, Jim. I mean, Stan would just sit there, typing out stories. And when the artists came in, they’d discuss the plots and act them out. Stan would jump on the desk and be Thor or somebody. And they’d run around the office. Everyone was pleased with what they were doing. And it was important—if I repeat myself, I’m sorry—but everyone felt it was important to get the job done. And get it done on time. It was not an ego-centered thing, it was more like you were a craftsman. JS: Well, now people talk about creators’ rights. Was there any of that back then when they were creating characters? Or did they look at that as being part of their job? STEINBERG: Yeah, yeah, it was just part of the job. Stan or Jack or whoever thought the character up would discuss him. It was for the company. And the creators were paid for their work. JS: They were pretty happy about that? STEINBERG: People were more interested in raises rather than special bonus things. JS: Did they ask for their artwork back?

The Man Without Peer Wally Wood with his omnipresent cigarette.

Editor/writer Stan Lee was enamored of Wood’s work and heralded his arrival at Marvel on the splash page of Daredevil #5 (Dec. 1964) as if it were the Second Coming. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

“It Was My First Job In The City!”

Kuramoto, Marie Severin, John Verpoorten, and then Roy Thomas. [A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: Correct order of the above folks going on staff: Severin, Thomas, Kuramoto, Verpoorten.] DJZ: That was about 1965-66? STEINBERG: Yes… so he would have been in that room, too. Across the hall. Jim, do you remember? JS: I started work for Marvel when they were at 635 Madison Avenue, which was when they moved away from Magazine Management.

When Men Were… Male (Left:) Magazine Management writer Mario Puzo (near-future author of The Godfather) and editor Bruce Jay Friedman (author of Stern and other acclaimed novels), two definitely very talented fellows, seen during their 1960s Magazine Management days. Perhaps, as Flo said, they “made jokes” about the comics—or maybe it was some other guys from what Mad creator Harvey Kurtzman called Martin Goodman’s “men’s sweat” mags; still, in the long run, Marvel Comics has outlasted Male magazine and its brethren by decades, and has perhaps had a bit more cultural influence. Seen is the cover of the Jan. 1966 issue— Mort Kunstler artwork done to go with a story by Walter Kaylin. [© the respective copyright holders.]

STEINBERG: No. We used to throw it out. It would pile up, you know, and when the file got too full, we’d just take the oldest art and throw it out. We’re talking about from 1963 to at least 1966. DJZ: So that’s the first issues of The Fantastic Four? STEINBERG: Well, I would think so. I read all these things in the trade papers about how all this stuff is in a warehouse or all this stuff is on sale at conventions. I don’t remember specifically, but back then it was like “old wood” to us. The art was just thrown into a pile. And I truly don’t remember when they started that warehousing business. But before that, it just never dawned on anybody that the stuff was worth saving. Even the comic books— keeping back issues in the office—it was just not relevant back then. JS: Well, on the art, I think they sent it all out to a warehouse at one point and they recently started returning it. STEINBERG: The real old stuff, too? That’s great! I’m glad it all didn’t get thrown out, because when I was there, it would get in the way. And whenever we moved, we threw the stuff away. DJZ: Speaking of the office, you said the place was quite small. STEINBERG: Well, at the very first place we were at, there was nothing to speak of. There was a drawing table where someone could make corrections. But at the second place we moved, 625 Madison, it was bigger, and Sol and I shared our first office there. I had a desk, and Sol had a desk, and there were drawing boards—this was when we were really moving up! And Stan had his own office. He was quite excited, he even had a rug! That was a first! [laughter] Oh, when Wally Wood would come up to the office—he was doing Daredevil—he was a chain-smoker. And even though there were ashtrays in Stan’s office, he’d always drop ashes on Stan’s carpet. And that would drive Stan bananas. So when Woody would go into Stan’s office, I would walk with him and then very deftly take away his cigarette at the last minute. And it worked a few times. But as soon as he was in Stan’s office, he’d light up another one. Then there was another room. And I’m not sure the order in which they came on staff, but there was Morrie

STEINBERG: Yeah, okay. So anyway, we were the first division, then you’d move along the hall and you’d enter the men’s magazines area, the crossword puzzles, and millions of other things. And they would always look at us sort of funny. Stan always told me that the other editors never quite knew what to say to him. They didn’t really know what we were doing. As I mentioned in the other interview, some of the writers from Magazine Management were Mario Puzo and Bruce Jay Freidman and a few other writers who got really famous later. They were always making jokes about us. They’d come in and giggle…. I’m getting off the track. Anyway, in that office was when the super-hero thing really got off the ground. Roy came. I can’t remember when exactly the others came in, but I remember Stan had other writers like Steve Skeates and Denny O’Neil come in. Denny came from Missouri. And the day he landed in New York, to come up and visit, it happened to be Yom Kippur. And the whole town was closed down! Marvel was closed, everybody was closed. Businesses really closed then. And he couldn’t get hold of anybody! He didn’t know what was going on! DJZ: Who started up the Merry Marvel Marching Society? STEINBERG: Oh! Well, with all the letters coming in, kids would write and ask us why we didn’t have a fan club. And we would ask each other, “Who would spend money to be in a comicbook fan club?” And everyone would say that he didn’t have time to get involved setting one up. Finally, we decided to try it. And Stan wrote a little script for a record that we would make for the membership kit. And we all went to a real recording studio to do the record. And everyone was very nervous. Have you heard it? Guys Wearing Ties DJZ: I’ve heard about it, but I haven’t listened to it. I’d like to, though! STEINBERG: Okay, I’ve got a copy here—we’ll listen to it after we’re done

Denny O’Neil (on left) and Steve Skeates, from a Charlton panel at a (probably 1967) New York comics convention. Skeates had joined Marvel’s staff in June of ’65, O’Neil that October. Thanks to Jon B. Cooke; this photo originally appeared in TwoMorrows’ Comic Book Artist #9.

The Early Days Of The Marvel Age, As Remembered By Flo Steinberg

just buy the comics, read them and enjoy them, they wanted to be actively involved with this… Marvelness. DJZ: Did you see the Bullpen’s attitude start to change, as the fan response grew? STEINBERG: Everyone got a kick out of it. But at that time the fans did not have that much influence about what actually went into the story. It was always interesting to hear what they said, but decisions were not made based on fan interest. It was business judgments, because if a comicbook was not selling and even though all the fans loved it, Martin Goodman, the publisher, would cancel it. People didn’t take themselves so seriously—they didn’t think that they were the stars. They did their work, and if the work was received well, that was very gratifying. But they didn’t start thinking that they were the artwork—you know what I mean? It was not a star system then. I don’t know if this was perhaps because people were older then. JS: Well, I think that part of it was started by Stan himself.

“You Belong, You Belong, You Belong, You Belong…” The 1964 Merry Marvel Marching Society Kit, including the membership button and the “Voices of Marvel” record in its sleeve. There was also a welcoming letter, of course. In those earliest days, as this image sent by J. Ballmann shows, the membership cards the new members received were hand-autographed by “Ben J. Grimm”! The “M.M.M.S.” initials were first seen in Marvel issues dated Nov. 1964; the first full-fledged ad for the fan club appeared in very late ’64, in issues dated Feb. ’65. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

with the interview. It was cute, y’know? Everyone had their little piece to say. I remember Steve Ditko didn’t want to be on it, and I think Marie or Sol did up the artwork for it and the membership button. And we decided to sell the membership kit for a buck. It’d cover expenses; that’s all. Well, after the first ad went out, we got these huge bags of mail—the response was so out of line with what everyone expected! And everyone kept saying that they wouldn’t open up the mail! And it wasn’t just kids wanting to join the MMMS, there were college students and adults sending in their dollars, too! This was really new for us! People who could write— and spell! Marvel wound up having fan clubs in colleges. There was one in Stanford, I remember, that was very active. They would send us their newsletters, letting us know what they were doing. No one could figure it out—why this was happening. When “Dr. Strange” started up, we got all these letters saying, “Boy! You guys must be into drugs! These stories are so far-out! And in the Village—wow!” And the people at Marvel then were all just the straightest people you could imagine! We really didn’t know what anyone was talking about in these letters. And the first reaction about these letters about “Dr. Strange” and drugs, was “Oh, drugs! Maybe we should change the stories!” We really couldn’t figure out how those people were getting such ideas. And also at this time the cowboy comics were still going on, and Sgt. Fury, which I was quite fond of. JS: When did you find yourself paying more attention to the comics? STEINBERG: Well, I always loved them. I was just shocked that there were so many people out there who wanted to be a part of the whole thing. Rather than

STEINBERG: When he started doing the credits. That was a real first in comics. DJZ: And Stan, Jack, and Steve were the people who really got Marvel going. STEINBERG: Absolutely. JS: When did Stan start calling you “Fabulous Flo”? STEINBERG: Oh! Stan started making up names for everybody. This must have been in the mid-’60s. In one of the annuals, he put in pictures of everyone in the office at the time, and Stan started giving everyone names. Everyone enjoyed it. Stan was giving credit to people who were relative unknowns—especially people like letterers and colorists. JS: Actually, it was Roy, when he became editor-in-chief, who first gave the colorists credit listings. STEINBERG: Yes, Roy was also very good about giving people credit. It was a wonderful thing giving credit to the people who

Giving Credit Where Credit Is Due (Above:) We ran this entire page in A/E #136, but we had to run again what may be Flo’s sole credit in an actual Marvel story, on the Gene Colan/Jack Abel “Iron Man” splash page for Tales of Suspense #93 (Jan. 1966). Stan plotted with Gene, then had Roy T. script as his first Marvel super-hero assignment. But after Stan edited/rewrote roughly half of Roy’s dialogue, he opted against any hard credits on the yarn, instead mentioning all the “Bullpen buddies [who] had a hand in this one,” including Colan (as “Adam Austin”), Abel (as “Gary Michaels”), Sol Brodsky (production manager), Flo (corresponding secretary), and Marie Severin (colorist). Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] (Left:) Flo at the 1965 NYC comics convention; sadly, the two fans with her are unidentified.

“It Was My First Job In The City!”

worked on the stories. And maybe that’s how it all evolved with the person becoming the star, rather than the character. I’m not against it; it’s just that it was different. JS: You mentioned that people from Magazine Management came by and didn’t know what to think of Marvel. What did you think of working for the comicbook division? STEINBERG: I looked at them as magazines — hey! I’m in the magazine business! And it was my first job. And at that time, even with a degree or anything, you were lucky to make $60 a week starting. That was just the way things were. And Stan offered me $65, which was a big incentive to sign on! And I took the job, and we got along very well.

Marie, The Dam Is Breaking… Two (out of the many) 1960s Marvel office cartoons that Marie Severin drew depicting Flo. The one at left was given to Dewey Cassell by Linda Fite from Flo’s effects; the other was printed with this interview in Comics Interview #17, with Flo’s caption: “Vultures: Everyone pushing in to get copies of the new Marvels, which I first had to count and package.” [© Marie Severin.]

I got along well with the people. I enjoyed the On the MMMS, on the weekends we would production of it, seeing it come in and open up the mail. And we’d have these starting. Seeing it come piles of dollar bills—not even checks! It was amazing! together. Sending stuff to the There were little fan clubs all over the nation. And Comics Code. Do they still when they were in the city they would come up to send stuff there? Getting it visit. They would want to see something, but up back. I enjoyed the traffic of “Women In Comics” until the time I left, all that those people saw was it, which is what I’ve done the reception room. People didn’t want strangers in all my jobs. And I enjoyed That was the title of a 1974 NY Con panel which walking around in the office stopping the production mostly shipping the completed consisted in part of (left to right) Flo Steinberg, Marie Severin, and Jean Thomas, Roy’s then-wife. This photo of the comics. issue to the printer! [laughter] appeared in the con’s 1975 program book. Getting it out on time was DJZ: What was the atmosphere in the bullpen like? always a great feeling. Then more and more people were STEINBERG: Well, there were always a lot of practical jokes, starting to come to the office, and more and more mail was flooding but there was nothing like what they did back in the ’50s. Then in, and it was decided that I should spend more time on the mail. they would actually give each other hotfoots, or drop real banana And we didn’t have public relations people or anything like that skins. The stories were great to hear. Some of them were really big back then. If someone came, you’d go out and greet him. If a letter practical jokes with buckets of water! As for what happened when I came, you answered it. And then there were too many letters to was at Marvel, well, Marie was always doing her caricatures. personally answer, so we did the little postcards. Then later the no-prizes. DJZ: How about your working relationship with Sol? But we would get some nasty letters, too. Once we got this letter from Texas to Sgt. Fury. It was this letter saying, “Well, if you people are anti-Nazi, you must be pro-Commie, New York egghead liberals or something! And I’m coming to kill you all!” Everybody panicked. We called the FBI and an agent came down. And he gingerly held the letter and he asked as if anyone had handled the letter. And we said, “Yeah, about fifty people.” And he calmed us down—he was very nice. Our tax dollars were at work here! [laughter] After that, nobody wanted to go out when someone came to visit. Especially if it was an adult. Everyone would try and leave early.

STEINBERG: Sol always had a good sense of humor. We always got along really well and it was fun when a job wasn’t in. It was a problem! And our job was to figure out how to get the job done! And it was sort of exciting—here was a problem to be solved! One way or another we would to it—constant phone calls, and nagging people. I was very good at whining. People were very nice and responsive. If you asked them nicely they would do it. And if they didn’t get their work in, there was always a reason. Bill Everett had the best excuses. He’d come in and say that his hamster had eaten all the pages. [laughter] There was always a lot of work accidentally left on the subway. Always—that was a big one.

The Early Days Of The Marvel Age, As Remembered By Flo Steinberg

bunch of wonderful letters from fans who wrote in when they heard I was leaving. They were really touching. And I still came back and did freelance work when I was looking for another job. Another thing about Marvel when I was working for them—it was my first job in the city and I’ve made my lifetime friends with some of the people from there, even though I’ve gone on to other things. My strongest friendships are with those people I met at or through Marvel. They’re just wonderful people. My friends today are still comics people. And I like comics. That’s my interest, even though I work at Arts Magazine now.

Jolly Solly Brodsky (Above:) In What If? #11, Sol became The Human Torch. Script & pencils by Jack Kirby; inks by Mike Royer & Bill Wray. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] (Right:) Sol on the phone—as he often was, except when he had Flo calling someone for him.

Or some kid spilled their food on it. There was always a real reason why the work wasn’t in. And you never saw the remnants of these pages—they just disappeared. And there was never stuff in inventory. There was never an inventory story available. Things were done right up to the minute of it going out. So these stories had to get in! As for the art, the artists felt that their reputations rested on them meeting the deadline. You respected a person more if he made the deadline. It was part of being a professional. DJZ: There have been many stories told recently of how Stan and Jack got along during those early days. What did you see of their working relationship? STEINBERG: I did not see what came out later. The hostility. I did not see them like that. I saw them working very closely and creatively together on all this great stuff... the Hulk, FF, and Thor. I don’t know who actually created what—I wasn’t privy to that. I always assumed it was a collaboration. JS: I’m sure a lot of people are curious to know what happened to you after Marvel. STEINBERG: Oh, thank you. I left Marvel in 1968. I don’t remember exactly why; it was probably because I couldn’t get a $5 raise. This was Magazine Management, not Stan —they didn’t believe in giving raises to people in certain jobs because they could be so easily replaced. So after thinking about it for about two years, I decided to leave for my own good. And I got a

“…And He Stoppeth One Of Three…” Bill Everett—and a sketch of “the Ancient Sub-Mariner” done by the artist especially for his son Rob. As Flo states, Wild Bill came up with equally wild excuses for lateness. Although he sometimes liked to style himself a curmudgeon, the creator of Sub-Mariner (and co-creator of Daredevil) was, alas, only 53 years old when he passed away in February of 1973. Photo courtesy of Ger Apeldoorn; art from the Heritage Comics Auction, with thanks to Mike Mikulovsky & Michael T. Gilbert. [Sub-Mariner TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

After I left Marvel, I felt I had to get out of comics completely for a while and find a profession, because “singing and dancing” at Marvel was not very marketable. So out came the interview suit and I made the rounds. I was fortunate to get a job with this trade place—the American Petroleum Institute. It put out technical manuals. A very fine woman, Bonnie Higgins, taught me everything. Everything about editing, about trade stuff, technical stuff. I stayed there for 2½ years and did editing. We did lots of volumes for the refining division, and truck driver manuals and how to clean your oil tanks, pamphlets on how to deliver speeches. It was very straight-laced. The

“It Was My First Job In The City!”

hours were from nine-to-five. And we worked with very fancy printers. I really learned the printing business there. Then, API was moving to Washington. They’re a lobby organization, so they wanted to be closer to the politicians. They asked me to come with them. but I didn’t feel like relocating. Also, around this time, I was meeting people who were involved with underground comics in New York. JS: Who was that? STEINBERG: Oh, Trina Robbins, Kim Deitch, Michele and Roger Brand—and they were all living on 9th Street. They were the first of what I thought were the hippies. It was wonderful meeting them. They befriended me. They knew me from Marvel. Also at this time Wally Wood was putting out witzend. And Roger was helping him with that. I was helping on some of the production. I came to all this counter-culture rather late, I felt. And, as someone being exposed to it late does, I super-embraced it. And then it broke my heart, because all those people started moving to California. That’s where undergrounds were really happening. So off they went. I went out and visited them once. And San Francisco just seemed to be like Shangri-La. This was in 1967-68, and when API moved to Washington, I decided to move to California. I left in 1970. And everybody at Marvel gave me a big party. I got wonderful gifts. And I moved out to San Francisco. But then, after a few months, I discovered that the life there just wasn’t for me. I worked for a while at Gary Arlington’s comicbook store for a dollar an hour and all the comics I wanted. [laughter] I met Artie Spiegelman, who is still a friend. And Justin Green. And Michele and Trina were there. Willy Murphy, this wonderful cartoonist who unfortunately died. His stuff was just so great! All these people would come to the comicbook store. Gary was an interesting person. He always thought he was the West Coast incarnation of Bill Gaines. Why not? Gary was a big EC fan, as were most of the underground writers and artists. So I stayed in San Francisco for a year because I was too embarrassed to come back. People had given me all these great going-away gifts, you know? [laughter] I finally came back and stayed in Boston with my family a bit. Then I went down to New York. And it’s hard re-establishing yourself after you’ve been away for awhile. You have to have an apartment and a job. Linda Fite and Herb Trimpe were really good to me. Herb had a studio in the upper 80s that he wasn’t using, so I stayed there and went job-hunting. I started at the place I knew best, but Marvel wasn’t hiring. DC wasn’t hiring. I went to Harvey Comics and had an interview with Leon Harvey—a strange fellow. I went to Jim Warren, and he said he could use somebody, so he hired me. I was there for about three years, doing the mail-order stuff for Captain Company. JS: What was Jim Warren like? STEINBERG: Oh! Well… erratic. He was always up front. He never said it was easy working for him. But he was always straight about it. And my job was to select books with monster-type products and order them, write the little ads, and handle the customer complaints. And hopefully, the stuff I bought would sell. If they sold, everything was fine. If they didn’t… it wasn’t. And he’d call me into his office. Jim Warren at times could be very demanding. It was always a one-person business—it was his baby, and he didn’t have to answer to anybody else. He was very helpful to me when I first thought about doing my own underground comic, Big Apple Comix. There was all this stuff coming out of California, and Denis Kitchen’s stuff, but nothing from New York. [A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: Jim Warren’s remembrance of Flo appears on pp. 46-47 of this

“Fare Thee Well, Fab!” This 1968 “going-away card” from Stan to Flo was shown on two separate pages of Comics Interview #17… so we assume the message was written on two different pages.

issue; more about Flo and the Captain Company on p. 31-32.] JS: When did you decide to do Big Apple? STEINBERG: This was—I thought about it when I first came back from California—a big project that I could do, you know? I wanted to make it about New York. Uh, do you guys have copies? DJZ: Yes. JS: I used to, but when I was unpacking my collection, I couldn’t find it. STEINBERG: I’ll give you one! [laughter] Things disappear, I know how that can happen. It was very important to me. And I mentioned it to friends, because I knew that the only way I would actually do the magazine was if I started talking to my friends about it. So I started asking people I was friends with if they would like to do a piece for it, or if they knew someone who would be interested. It just had to be about New York City. And I told them that I couldn’t pay very much. I realized that a lot of people did it as a personal favor. But I was not above accepting it. Wally Wood was very cooperative. By this time, Larry Hama had come out of the service and he was back in comics, so he and Ralph Reese did that one thing with Neal Adams. Of course, since they were doing it for so little money, I couldn’t really pressure them. But at the same time I wanted to get the magazine out. However, Neal was always late. You know, no matter what he promises, he’s always later delivering it. Larry and Ralph had done their part, and I was waiting forever for Neal to do his. Also at this time there was ACBA [= Academy of Comic Book Arts]. So we would meet up at Continuity, Neal’s studio at 48th Street. So I’d always be running in and trying to see if he was [continued on p. 21]

The Early Days Of The Marvel Age, As Remembered By Flo Steinberg

“Those Were The Days, My Friend…” Flo and some of her underground cartoonist buddies, on one Coast or another, back in the day.

Kim Deitch Cartoonist/author of the graphic novel The Boulevard of Broken Dreams, et al.

Flo & Trina Robbins More of the cartoonist and comics historian (seen on right) on p. 43. Courtesy of TR.

Art Spiegelman circa 1968. Some years later, he’d win a Pulitzer Prize for his graphic novel Maus.

Willy Murphy, Gary Arlington, Flo, & Larry Rippee at a time when Flo was working in Arlington’s comics/comix store in San Francisco. Both Murphy and Rippee were prominent underground cartoonists. Courtesy of Trina Robbins. [All photos © the respective copyright holders.]

Roger & Michele Brand were married at that time. He drew for both mainstream and underground comics; she was also a cartoonist, and later a colorist for mainstream comics. Photo taken by Patrick Rosenkranz.

“It Was My First Job In The City!”

BIG APPLE COMIX Flo Steinberg’s Sept. 1975 “Adults Only” one-shot independent included work by various friends and colleagues from Marvel, Warren Publishing, and elsewhere. The Foreword on the inside front cover was written by Denny O’Neil. The entire contents were “© 1975 Flo Steinberg and Big Apple Productions,” at Flo’s NYC address; but doubtless she intended for the material to be the property of the individual creators. See p. 47 for a page written and drawn for the issue by Linda Fite, and p. 44 for art by Michele Brand.

Taking A Bite Out Of The Apple (Above:) The cover is credited to a combination of Larry Hama, Paul Kirschner, Stu Schwartzberg, and (most obviously) Wally Wood—with coloring by Michele Brand. [© the respective copyright holders.]

“The Man Without A City” (Above:) A 3-pager by Stu Schwartzberg (writer) and Marie Severin (inker) led off the issue, though how the two artists divided the penciling chores isn’t known. [© Stu Schwartzberg & Marie Severin.]

Stu Schwartzberg “The Tube” (Above & right:) Al Williamson illustrated this heroic-fantasy parody from a script by Wood, with Al-pal (and Flo-pal) Roy Thomas posing for “Brad Bickford.” Three attractive young ladies were photographed for the 3-pager, as well, but due to matters of wearing attire (like, there was none!), there are zero panels featuring them that we could reprint. Al drew himself at the end of the story, on which artist Dan Green gave him an assist. [© Estate of Al Williamson.]

wrote and/or drew stories for Marvel’s Spoof and Crazy Magazine. Photo from the 1975 Marvel comics convention program book.

The Early Days Of The Marvel Age, As Remembered By Flo Steinberg

“My Word” was Wally Wood’s takeoff on the famous Al Feldstein-scripted story “My World” that Wood had illustrated for EC’s Weird Science #22 (Nov.Dec. 1953), reproduced smaller below. The splash at left is the only panel in the 3-page entry that we could get away with showing (just barely) in A/E. [Big Apple panel © Estate of Wally Wood; EC panel TM & © William M. Gaines Agent, Inc.]

“Can You Spot The New York Air Breather?” The one artist/writer unknown to us in all of Big Apple Comix is the “Petchesky” who drew the above picture of a Manhattan crowd and the (unreproduced here) identification of who was who among those trying to take a breath. Anybody got any suggestions? Maybe one of Flo’s underground comix pals we couldn’t locate on the Internet? [© Petchesky.]

Archie Goodwin “Peep Shows” (Right:) Near-future Marvel editor-in-chief Archie Goodwin wrote and drew this 2-pager.

“It Was My First Job In The City!”

“New York City: The Future”

Paul Kirschner

(Right:) Paul Kirschner, a cartoonist who in the 1960s had published the satirical NYC magazine The Realist, wrote, drew, and lettered this page. [© Paul Kirschner or successors in interest.]

“Over & Under” (Above:) Neal Adams, Larry Hama, and Ralph Reese collaborated on this 5-pager. Adams drew the left side of pages, while Reese inked Hama on the right. Photos of Hama and Reese appear later in this issue. [© Neal Adams, Larry Hama, & Ralph Reese.]

“The Battery’s Down” (Right:) Newcomer Alan Weiss wrote and illustrated this 5-pager. [© Alan Weiss.]

Neal Adams Photo also from 1975 Marvel con program book.

Alan Weiss

The Early Days Of The Marvel Age, As Remembered By Flo Steinberg

“The Silent Minority”

“Lotsa Yox - Featuring Rodger Farnsworth USAAF”

(Above:) Mike Ploog contributed this 2-pager, starring one of the city’s homeless. [© Mike Ploog.]

(Above) Incredible Hulk mainstay Herb Trimpe wrote and drew (and the ubiquitous Wally Wood inked) this 2-page spoof starring honorary New Yorker King Kong. Trimpe also contributed a 4-page entry that closed the comic. [© Estate of Herb Trimpe.]

Michael Ploog

Backword (Left:) Flo herself wrote— and placed the “big apple” atop the torch on the photocopied Statue of Liberty—for the comic’s inside back cover; note her initials. [© Estate of Flo Steinberg.]

Back Cover (Right:) A 1970s subway scene by Ralph Reese. [© Ralph Reese.]

“It Was My First Job In The City!”

[Continued from p. 15] working on the story for me. I didn’t want to be rude, but as the days went by I’d get more and more anxious and I’d start to whine and everything. [laughter] ACBA startled with such great, good feelings. It’s too bad it didn’t work out. Artists’ rights, lectures, and the most popular thing, awards banquets! I thought that was a nice idea; once a year everyone would get together and dress up nice and hand out awards. But it turned out that nobody wanted it to be a union. Everyone was afraid of the word “strike.” Which, of course, was what it would have ultimately led to if they ran into serious problems with the publishers. The reason that helped ACBA fail, I think, was that the older fellows remembered the hard times they had in the ’50s. And everyone knew that the publishers could always go to reprinting material. ACBA never became a strong force. It was more Neal than anything else in that respect. I don’t know how it came about that the artwork started being returned, and the reprint rights started. JS: It was a lot of things. STEINBERG: You think so? JS: Yeah. STEINBERG: But it wasn’t anyone threatening anybody, was it?

What If… Flo Steinberg Co-Starred In A Comicbook?

JS: No, no, there wasn’t the threat of forming a union or striking. It was just people—it was more an educational process. The more people talked about it, the more it made sense. I think that whenever it’s explained to people that there are good logical reasons for an action, they’ll do it. So the changes slowly evolved for a variety of reasons.

In the flashback F.F. origin in What If? #11, Flo makes her pre-invisibility entrance. Script & pencils by Kirby; inks by Royer & Wray. Thanks to Barry Pearl. When story-conceptualizer Roy T. first read this interview back in the ’80s, he was reminded that he should’ve gotten her formal approval before having Kirby include her… but he wanted it to surprise her. And it sure did! [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

STEINBERG: That’s good. One thing I thought was good about ACBA was that it brought people together—it got them out of their homes and studios. The social part of it, I felt, was really valuable. I think it gave everyone more a sense of community. JS: Well, what finally dissolved ACBA was that people wanted so many different things from it. Some wanted a union, some wanted a chance to meet their friends, etc. And ACBA couldn’t be all things to all people. And, of course, no one wanted to put in the time to make the organization work. So eventually ACBA fell apart. STEINBERG: Yeah, that was too bad. JS: When I was a member, meetings were held at the Society of Illustrators Club. And it eventually became a place for people to argue with each other. STEINBERG: Yeah, I remember a few hostile and grumpy people in the group. They were always getting up and yelling and screaming. And I thought it was so horrendous. DJZ: What was your reaction when you saw the What If? issue featuring you as one of the Fantastic Four? Did you know about it beforehand? STEINBERG: No, I didn’t! And when I saw it, I thought it was fantastic! It was a very gracious thing to do, I thought. JS: Also, recently, you were mentioned in two places. One was in Swank magazine’s thirtieth anniversary. Chip Goodman—Martin Goodman’s son—is the publisher. STEINBERG: No kidding! What did it say? JS: Bruce Jay Friedman’s son did interviews with Mario Puzo, his father, and others. The article mentioned the time [Italian film director Federico] Fellini came to the office.

STEINBERG: Oh, right. He came to the office—and Alain Resnais—they were big comic fans. JS: I can’t remember who tells the story in that, but they say when Fellini came he was much more interested in Magazine Management—though Stan spoke to him a bit. STEINBERG: Well, I don’t remember Fellini so much, but when Alain Resnais came up he was just another guy. [laughter] By this time, we were interested in people who could help publicize the comics. I think the Wall Street Journal was the first publication to do an article on the phenomenon of comics—Marvel. And when Alain came up, we really weren’t that sophisticated, you know. He and Stan talked for a while. Alain must have had a translator with him, because Stan doesn’t speak one word of French. Stan gave him sourballs like he gave everyone. JS: The other place where you were mentioned—do you remember Cat Yronwode? STEINBERG: Yes, yes, I know who she is. JS: She’s now the editor-in-chief of Eclipse [Comics]. And in her editorial, she mentions a letter that she wrote to Marvel, asking for any sort of job, even sweeping the floors—just so she could be at Marvel. And you responded, telling her to go to college first, and then come back and get a better job. And Cat went on to thank you for your advice, even though she didn’t follow it. STEINBERG: She and Trina have written this book on women cartoonists that goes back to the 1800s. Trina did a lot of research, going to all sorts of nursing homes. It hasn’t come out yet. I read some sample chapters and it was wonderful. I hope that it will be published soon. It is a really good historical book dealing with newspapers and all.

The Early Days Of The Marvel Age, As Remembered By Flo Steinberg

Cinema Verities Two directors who were eager to meet Stan Lee when they came to New York were Federico Fellini, at the time of the late-1965 U.S. premiere of his ill-fated film Juliet of the Spirits—and Alain Resnais, “New Wave” director of Hiroshima, Mon Amour. [Posters © the respective copyright holder

Magazine, and that was a full-time job. JS: What do you do at Arts Magazine? STEINBERG: Well, I’m the managing editor.

JS: What happened with Big Apple? STEINBERG: Oh, right, we got off the track a little there. I finally got the piece from Neal. And Marie Severin and Stu Schwartzberg and Herb and I started getting the thing ready for the printer. JS: What made you decide to become a publisher?

JS: Get any fan mail from the college students?

Federico Fellini

Alain Resnais It would seem that Resnais (who also directed the film Last Year at Marienbad) first met Stan while Flo was his secretary. In the early 1970s, the French director moved to New York for some time to work with Stan on a screenplay, which resulted in Stan having to relinquish the reins of Fantastic Four and Amazing Spider-Man for four issues.

STEINBERG: I’m not an artist or a writer. And I was so impressed with the spirit in San Francisco—it really was so alive out there. I wanted to do something that was my own contribution to this. At that time, it worked. I could ask these people to contribute and they had the time to do it. Big Apple took about two years to finally get everything together. Archie Goodwin did something, and John Verpoorten helped me a lot on the production end. Then I got it printed. And just looking at 20,000 copies of Big Apple was really something! I had them all delivered to Warren because he let me use his storage space, instead of bringing them up here to my tiny apartment. That was very nice of him. And then came the part of sending out samples and filling orders and dragging all those boxes to the post office and hounding people who hadn’t paid their bills. Even though it was a lot of work, I liked that part, too. Big Apple was mine. JS: How many copies do you have left? STEINBERG: I just have about 50 or 100 left. After it was all over— and I did make my expenses and a little besides—Peter Wolf from Cheri magazine reprinted a couple of the stories, Woody’s and Larry, Ralph, and Neal’s. And, in France, L’Echo reprinted them as well. And I gave all the money to the creators. JS: You were their favorite publisher then. [laughter] STEINBERG: Believe me, they couldn’t even buy themselves a good dinner off that money. It’s easy to be honest when only pennies are involved. I thought about doing a second issue. People were enthusiastic, but I knew I couldn’t ask for another favor the second time around. By this time, I had also started working at Arts

His breakout film was the classic La Strada [The Road]. Despite Jim Salicrup’s reading that in 1965 Fellini was more interested in meeting the crew at Magazine Management’s “men’s sweat” titles than he was Stan, that’s definitely not the impression Stan or new assistant editor Roy T. got at the time the flamboyant Italian director and his entourage swept into Marvel! From childhood, Fellini had been enamored of the comics, beginning with Little Nemo in Slumberland, Mandrake the Magician, The Phantom, et al.

STEINBERG: No ... JS: Any fan club? [laughter] STEINBERG: No, no, there I don’t take the calls or go out and greet the people like I did at Marvel. It’s completely changed. DJZ: No Merry Arts Magazine Marching Society?

STEINBERG: No, no, no. I liked going to the galleries before I started working for the magazine. But it’s now turned into a business, and on my own time, I want to do something else. It’s funny to think of that now. But that’s what happened. Richard Martin, our editor, is a big Uncle Scrooge fan. DJZ: How about your duties as managing editor? STEINBERG: I copyedit the manuscripts. And I deal a lot with the printers. I work with the typesetter and designers. Fortunately, there is a very nice staff there who will deal with the writers and the artists. Great egos abound in the art world, so you have to spend a lot of time with them when

From Comic Art To Fine Art The cover of the Summer 1968 issue of Arts Magazine. Flo didn’t go to work for the periodical until several years after she left Marvel, but this is the latest cover we could find on the Internet! [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright owners.]

“It Was My First Job In The City!”

they come to the office. I spend a week at the printer looking at the bluelines, making sure that something isn’t placed upside down. That often happens, because that abstract stuff can be very hard to figure out. [laughter] Every issue there’s something like that. The printers are also very big on flopping the illustrations.

Be Seeing You? Flo turns invisible for the first time in What If? #11, to the befuddlement of Stan Lee and Sol Brodsky. Story & pencils by Kirby; Inks by Royer & Wray. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

JS: You should tell the artist to label the back of the photo—“this end up.”

STEINBERG: It’s very important! And so many of the photos are not marked at all—not even with the name and address, so we can’t even return the photos! This is my eleventh year at the magazine. And I like working with the words, with the print. I like the printing business. The office is close to my apartment so I can walk to work, which is very important in New York. I don’t have to dress up, also very important. It pays well and everything like that. I don’t feel that I would have gotten a job like this if I hadn’t left Marvel. If I had stayed there, I feel I’d still be answering the fan mail. People often asked me why I left. And I didn’t leave out of dissatisfaction with the company or the people. It was just that the job I had wouldn’t have led anywhere—there was no real opportunity for me. So I felt I had to leave for my career. But I still kept in touch with everyone in comics. Marie is still a friend. JS: What is your attitude towards the art world? STEINBERG: What I discovered from working there is that fine art is also a business. Each season there is a new “thing,” right? And the galleries are trying to stay in business. And I think sometimes the things that are in the galleries—well, it’s not so much a question of whether or not you’re a good artist. It’s luck and timing, it seems, more than anything else. We cover mostly New York art. Richard feels that New York is the center of the art world. We know that there have to be regional artists in other parts of the country who are every bit as good as New York artists, but no one knows about them because they just don’t get in the press. You really do have to come here and pay your dues in many cases before you can make it.

STEINBERG: Appropriated it, yeah. I think they really did just appropriate the comicbook image and went on to become famous. The media took them up. And those people became famous. I Roy Lichtenstein always resented in front of one of his “Pop Art” paintings. Comicbook it, personally, people, by and large, resented his appropriating because it seemed comics images and calling them “his”—but that to make fun of it. didn’t prevent Marvel, for a few months, from Here these guys changing its corner box to call itself “Marvel Pop Art from outside were Productions”! Thankfully, it didn’t last. just reaching in and taking some of the flash and color of comics and suddenly, boom! It’s fine art! Whereas the people who were doing the stuff for years, because it was real comics, it was not considered art. In this country there is high art and low art. In Europe and Japan, they really don’t have that sort of distinction as much as we do. The Graham Gallery often has comic art shows, and Richard always asks me if I know of anyone who would like to cover them, because it is popular art that is indigenous to America. There was one on George Herriman of Krazy Kat, so I called Bobby London, and there was another of Chester Gould, so I called in Art Spiegelman. It pays so little that they’re really doing the piece for love. JS: What do you think lies ahead for you? Will you ever get involved in comics [again]? STEINBERG: I wouldn’t mind doing a project in comics. Undergrounds have sort of slumped. There’s just not the market for them that there once was. Denis Kitchen is still putting out his stuff. But the last good series is Larry Gonick’s Cartoon History of the World. It’s so good! Publishers like Rip Off Press are mostly doing anthologies now. I would like to do another project and this time be able to pay people a bit more. I write little things down that I’d like to do; I just have to get the impetus—which can only come from yourself. I’ve gotten lazy the last few years. It’s comfortable working at Arts Magazine. And I don’t feel I have to prove anything, which is probably a big reason why Big Apple came out in the first place. But I would like to do a book. Maybe write my memoirs. [laughter]

DJZ: I’ve noticed, in the East Village, where I live, there are a lot of new galleries. STEINBERG: Right. That’s good, because it gets more artists on view. Exposure is part of being an artist. JS: The Whitney Museum recently had a show about comic art. Did you see that? STEINBERG: Yes, we covered it. JS: The show had some work by Andy Warhol, pieces on Dick Tracy and Popeye. And Lichtenstein and others, showing how they had used the comicbook style in their work.

Blame It On The Skrulls! The final story-panel of What If? #11 that portrayed Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Flo Steinberg, and Sol Brodsky as The Fantastic Four… with the Sub-Mariner thrown in for good measure. Script & pencils by Kirby, inks by Royer & Wray. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Edited by ROY THOMAS The first and greatest “hero-zine”—ALL-NEW, focusing on GOLDEN AND SILVER AGE comics and creators with ARTICLES, INTERVIEWS, UNSEEN ART, P.C. Hamerlinck’s FCA [Fawcett Collectors of America], MICHAEL T. GILBERT in Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, BILL SCHELLY’S Comic Fandom Archive, and more!

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From Detroit to Deathlok, we cover the career of artist RICH BUCKLER: Fantastic Four, The Avengers, Black Panther, Ka-Zar, Dracula, Morbius, a zillion Marvel covers—Batman, Hawkman, and other DC stars—Creepy and Eerie horror—and that’s just in the first half of the 1970s! Plus Mr. Monster, BILL SCHELLY, FCA, and comics expert HAMES WARE on fabulous Golden Age artist RAFAEL ASTARITA!

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DON GLUT discusses his early years as comic book writer for Marvel, Warren, and Gold Key, with art by SANTOS, MAROTO, CHAN, NEBRES, KUPPERBERG, TUSKA, TRIMPE, SAL BUSCEMA, and others! Also, SAL AMENDOLA and ROY THOMAS on the 1970s professional Academy of Comic Book Arts, founded by STAN LEE and CARMINE INFANTINO! Plus Mr. Monster, FCA, BILL SCHELLY, and more!

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40 years after the debut of Marvel’s STAR WARS #1, its writer/editor ROY THOMAS tells RICHARD ARNDT the story behind that landmark comic, plus interviews with artists HOWARD CHAYKIN, RICK HOBERG, and BILL WRAY. Also: MR. MONSTER looks at “Jazz in Comics” with MICHAEL T. GILBERT—the finale of BILL SCHELLY’s salute to G.B. LOVE—FCA— and more! CHAYKIN cover.

DOUG MOENCH in the 1970s at Warren and Marvel (Master of Kung Fu, Planet of the Apes, Deathlok, Werewolf by Night, Morbius, Moon Knight, Ka-Zar, Weirdworld)! Art by BUSCEMA, GULACY, PLOOG, BUCKLER, ZECK, DAY, PERLIN, & HEATH! MICHAEL T. GILBERT on EC’s oddball “variant covers”—FCA—and a neverpublished Golden Age super-hero story by MARV LEVY! Cover by PAUL GULACY!

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ALTER EGO #152

Showcases GIL KANE, with an incisive and free-wheeling interview conducted in the 1990s by DANIEL HERMAN for his 2001 book Gil Kane: The Art of the Comics—plus other surprise features centered around the artistic co-creator of the Silver Age Green Lantern and The Atom! Also: FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America), MICHAEL T. GILBERT, and BILL SCHELLY! Cover by GIL KANE, JOE GIELLA, and MARIE SEVERIN!

STAN LEE’s 95th birthday! Rare 1980s LEE interview by WILL MURRAY—GER APELDOORN on Stan’s non-Marvel writing in the 1950s—STAN LEE/ROY THOMAS e-mails of the 21st century—and more special features than you could shake Irving Forbush at! Also FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America), BILL SCHELLY, and MICHAEL T. GILBERT! Colorful Marvel multi-hero cover by Big JOHN BUSCEMA!

Golden Age artist FRANK THOMAS (The Owl! The Eye! Dr. Hypno!) celebrated by Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt’s MICHAEL T. GILBERT! Plus the scintillating (and often offbeat) Golden & Silver Age super-heroes of Western Publishing’s DELL & GOLD KEY comics! Art by MANNING, DITKO, KANE, MARSH, GILL, SPIEGLE, SPRINGER, NORRIS, SANTOS, THORNE, et al.! Plus FCA, BILL SCHELLY, and more!

Unsung artist/writer LARRY IVIE conceived (and named!) the JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA, helped develop T.H.U.N.D.E.R. AGENTS, brought EC art greats to the world of Edgar Rice Burroughs, and more! SANDY PLUNKETT chronicles his career, with art by FRAZETTA, CRANDALL, WOOD, KRENKEL, DOOLIN, and others! Plus FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT, BILL SCHELLY, and more!

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prelude to the following article

The Flow Before Flo…

fter the ’57-’58 nigh-collapse of Martin Goodman’s magazine empire, editor Stan Lee abruptly found himself without a secretary for several years. In 1962, however, as the 1961-spawned Fantastic Four garnered increasing sales and fan-mail, he seems to have employed, probably in serial order (whether full-time or part-time), at least three secretaries/assistants, whose existence is almost solely known through their contacts with an emerging comics fandom.

Comic Heroes Revisited #1 (Spring 1962) (Left & above:) This fanzine published by young Bernie Bubnis in March and April (according to postmarks he’s seen on old copies of it) mentions Stan’s secretary Trudy Ross in both a news item—and on a splash page he himself traced from a 1950s Timely/Atlas comic drawn by Dick Ayers. Bernie says: “My only communication with her was over the phone [at] the end of February/beginning of March. When I called the Marvel offices to get permission to ’re-draw’ a Human Torch story for my fanzine… Trudy Ross spoke to me… and told me it would be OK to re-draw. Our conversation led to [her mentioning Steve Ditko], and she was sure he was in the phonebook. Duh… wasn’t everyone in 1962? Well, he sure was, and before he hung up on me, he told me to drop by his studio in NYC.” Which is another story. Thanks to Bernie Bubnis, J. Ballmann, & Mike Tuohey. [Human Torch TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Super Hero #1 (Oct.-Nov. 1962)

August 21, 1962 The above pre-printed postcard to fan Mike Tuohey has a typed-in “signature” for Helena Sher, “Editorial Ass[istan]t” of Fantastic Four—since there was no “Marvel Comics” yet. The postmark date was on the other side, as per inset. Was Ms. Sher perhaps an interim employee between Trudy Ross and a successor? Seems unlikely Stan would’ve had a real “editorial assistant” at that time, as opposed to a secretary—while Stan Goldberg and Sol Brodsky were handling production work on a freelance basis. Thanks to Mike Tuohey.

Mike Tuohey, a Detroit fan who helped Alter Ego founder Jerry Bails with several of his fan-publications, soon published his own fanzine. On a news page (above), he writes particularly of Judy Walsh, who that autumn sent him the two letters printed at the top of the following page... but he also mentions Helena Sher and Trudy Ross. Was it getting crowded up there at Magazine Management’s comics department—or, more likely, were interim secretaries going in and out the revolving door so fast it seemed like they were all there at once? When asked about his shout-out to Ms. Ross, Mike responded: “I have nothing to document Trudy Ross other than her being mentioned in CHR #1 and in S-H #1.” Which led A/E’s editor to wonder if perhaps Bernie Bubnis had actually spoken to Judy Walsh and accidentally misheard her name as “Trudy Ross.” Bernie, however, distinctly remembers asking her to spell out her name for him, so he’d get it right on that redrawn “Torch” splash—so that settles that!

The Flow Before Flo...

Letters From Judy Walsh (L. to r.:) The second of these two letters preserved by Mike Tuohey, the one dated 10-25-62, mentions the upcoming debuts of “Iron Man,” Sgt. Fury (with “Sergeant” spelled out, or rather misspelled out), and Amazing Spider-Man. Probably, by the fall of ’62, Trudy and Helena had moved on?

Millie The Model #119 (March 1964)

Oct. 29, 1962 (Above left:) This letter to Mike, dated four days after the one at top right, is personally signed by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby— and also sports huge initials that Mike feels are “F.F.,” for the Fantastic Four themselves. Perhaps it had also been typed by Judy Walsh, but signed only by Stan and Jack?

Ye Editor Roy T. here: “A few years ago, while doing research for the Taschen books 75 Years of Marvel: From the Golden Age to the Silver Screen (2014) and the soon-forthcoming The Stan Lee Story, I e-mailed Stan a query about Judy Walsh (I hadn’t yet heard of Trudy Ross or Helena Sher)… asking whether he recalled having a secretary by that name. His response: “‘So now the secret is out. Judy Walsh is the lady Stan keeps in the attic who has been writing all the great super hero stories that Stan has been taking credit for.

her.’

(Left:) This pinup page penciled by Stan Goldberg (inker unknown) includes a hairdo credited to “Judy Walsh” of “Port Sulpher,” Louisiana. If this is the same Judy Walsh, her name is appearing quite late—since Flo Steinberg had been corresponding secretary for half a year by the time this issue’s contents would’ve gone to the printer in the fall of ’63! Flo, who said she never heard of Judy, Trudy, or Helena, would have added the names in the fashion captions. Usually they were those of girls (or the occasional boy) who’d sent in drawings of clothes or hairstyles, though monikers of Flo’s friends and co-workers were occasionally dropped in, just for a zane. Thanks to D.D. Degg and “Glenn.” [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

“‘I wish I could help you, Roy, but actually I never heard of

“Given Stan’s infamous memory—on top of Walsh’s relatively short tenure at proto-Marvel—it’s hardly surprising he doesn’t recall her. And alas, it’s far too late to ask Sol Brodsky or Stan Goldberg. But ‘Fabulous Flo’ Steinberg stuck around for more than half a century after going to work for Marvel… and it’s she, and her contributions, that the preceding and following pages celebrate….”

Fabulous FLO STEINBERG – Part 3

25 Facts That Made Flo “Fabulous”

A Tribute To—Who Else!—Fabulous FLO STEINBERG by J. Ballmann

A/E

EDITOR’S INTRODUCTION: J. Ballman is a researcher of the early days of comic fandom, and the author of The 1964 New York Comicon: The True Story behind the World’s First Comic Convention (Totalmojo Productions, 2016). Here he has compiled a list of 25 fascinating factoids about Flo Steinberg—though he stresses that, except for following a certain chronological logic, the two-dozen-plus-one accomplishments are presented in no particular order. 1. Flo figured out her job all on her own when she began working at Marvel in March 1963. Nobody trained her or gave her a manual or “showed her the ropes.” Flo never knew her predecessor —or even her predecessor’s name—but the fact is that she had replaced Stan Lee’s previous secretary, Miss Judy Walsh. Early 1960s fanzines such as Super-Hero and Comic Heroes Revisited document the secretaries in the office in 1962: Judy Walsh, Trudy Ross, and Helena Sher. Yet, when Flo arrived on her job the first day, none of these three was anywhere to be found. Stan welcomed her, and Sol Brodsky answered all her questions as she took on the work of three previous secretaries, so there was lots of work to do, and Flo hit the ground running. And for five years she never stopped.

2. Flo read all the Marvel comics. That is, she read them all once she started working at Marvel. In her words, “I had to, so I could answer all those questions when fans wrote or called.” She said her favorite Marvel comic was Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandos. 3. Flo sold back issues for Marvel as early as 1963. When

Postcards From The Ledge This postcard dated April 25, 1963 (by the recipient on this side, on the date he received it—it’s postmarked a couple of days earlier on the other), was sent by Flo to fan Gary Acord, and was signed by Flo as “Stan + Jack,” with a handwritten final line. The “plus” sign in the signature is her telltale mark, J. Ballmann notes. Flo confirmed later to him that this was indeed her handwriting.

“Fabulous Flo” Hard at work at Marvel Comics, sometime in the latter half of the 1960s. [© Marvel Characters, Inc.]

someone picked up a Marvel comic and became instantly hooked during that “Marvel Age of Comics,” that reader would instinctively write to Marvel to seek out earlier issues. Flo was in charge of the back-issue stock and even mailed out the latest price lists—typed up by her—of back issues to prospective buyers, making her one of the earliest back-issue comic-sellers ever. 4. Flo screened Stan’s mail. In Fantastic Four #24, Stan announced, “[W]e get HUNDREDS of letters every week,” and he requested, two issues later, in #26, “Keep your letters brief…” Even if it were a fraction of the number stated, it would have been overwhelming for one person. But Flo read through the letters and sorted them into ones that could potentially be printed on the letters pages and those that would not. The better letters, of course—a manageable handful of them—would be passed on to Stan, who would make the final decision about which letters would be printed in the letter columns. Stan gave Flo very specific instructions about the letters. Certainly he would look at any intelligent letters or ones that stood out, but letters from college students, members of the armed services, and professionals such as doctors and teachers— and, yes, females—were almost certain to be picked out and passed on to Stan for his consideration. For it was Stan’s never-ending quest to dispel popular perceptions about his comics and to present Marvel’s readership as something more than the much-dreaded demographic of pre-adolescent boys and adults in various stages of “arrested development.” Letters from college students were additionally forwarded to Debby Ackerman, Marvel’s college liaison, who was in charge of college campus surveys. Without Flo’s help with this initial sorting, Stan would never have had time to write any comics, much less edit them—or to stand on his desk to famously act out plotlines for his artists. One point of monumental

A Tribute To—Who Else?—Flo Steinberg

responses in those old letter pages, but one thing is for certain: that unmistakable, ever-ubiquitous voice—and spirit—of Stan Lee does pervade and dominate them all. 6. Flo sent out the little response postcards to letter writers. She wrote two versions of these postcards. One was to inform a reader that his or her (mostly his) letter would be published in such-and-such an issue. The other version of the postcard thanked

Keep Those Letters And Postcards Comin’ In!

What Price Marvels? One of Flo’s back-issue price lists, mailed out to those who inquired. Notice the personal touch: a handwritten note, addressing the fan by name. Thanks to J. Ballmann.

(Above:) One of various letters-page call-outs by Flo, quite possibly actually written by her while typing the material for Fantastic Four #39… not that Stan would’ve been above putting words into his corresponding secretary’s typing fingers. (Below:) A personalized 1963 postcard response from Flo (her handwriting is “unmistakable,” writes J. Ballmann) shows that she was keeping up with what was going on in Marvel’s comics! [© Marvel Characters, Inc.

interest is that the first published writing—ever—of Game of Thrones creator George R.R. Martin was a letter to the Fantastic Four comic. If Flo had not chosen to pass that letter on to Stan for his consideration, who knows but that that young kid from Bayonne, New Jersey, might have become discouraged and never have pursued his now world-famous career as a writer? 5. Flo typed the letter columns. For the most part, she did not write the answers to the letters—Stan did—but at times she did interject herself into them and was mentioned in them occasionally. Stan also dictated his answers to Flo, so the answers contained a mix of Stan’s and Flo’s word choices in their final form. In the end, no one will ever know exactly who said what and in which

“Meet The Gang In The Merry Marvel Bullpen!” Marvel Tales Annual #1 (1964) featured two pages of photos of early Marvel staffers and freelancers. Across the bottom of the second page were Flo, subscription maven Nancy Murphy, and college rep Debby Ackerman. Incidentally, as Barry Pearl reminded Ye Editor, this was the first place where Flo was referred to by the sobriquet “Fabulous Flo”; the second was on the first MMMS record a few months later. [© Marvel Characters, Inc.]

25 Facts That Made Flo “Fabulous”

the writer for the letter and often added a note. These postcards were signed by “Stan and Jack” or “Stan and Steve” or “Stan and the Gang,” but it was Flo’s handwriting. 7. Flo mailed out the no-prizes. This *ahem* prestigious prize was first awarded in Fantastic Four #25, in 1964, to future Warren editor Bill DuBay, who wrote in to Stan that he had 11,231 comic books. From that point forward, no-prizes were awarded to fans who wrote notable letters or who pointed out editorial flaws or continuity issues in the comic books. All of this leads to the question: What the hell is a no-prize? The answer is that, in those days, it was two envelopes: an empty envelope saying “no-prize” that came mailed within a larger business-size envelope that was properly postmarked and which bore a Marvel return address—and, best of all, it was addressed to the lucky fan by the hand of Fabulous Flo Steinberg herself. 8. Flo answered the phones. Early 1960s issues of comicdom’s very own newszine, The Comic Reader, mention those many budding Jimmy Olsens who called up the comics publishers for the latest news. These teens were all locals like Ron Fradkin, Paul Gambaccini, Fred Landesman, Art Tripp, George Pacinda, and Steve Keisman, who could call up the publishers without running up long-distance phone bills. When they called Marvel, they chatted with Flo, and she regularly filled them in on the latest up-and-coming events at Marvel, and the reporters would pass the info on to editor Jerry Bails, who informed all of fandom through TCR. Plus, Flo answered all of the other calls coming in to Marvel: business calls, crank calls, threats (one of which forced the evacuation of the offices), calls from fans wanting to take a tour that Marvel didn’t give, calls from readers wanting to talk to Stan and Steve and Jack, calls from fans wanting to talk to her, calls from fans

All In Black-&-White—For Free! These two 1963 Bullpen pin-ups are extremely rare in their original form as printed hand-outs. They were given out to Marvel office visitors and mailed out to fans who asked for art by Kirby or Ditko; they were also distributed at the 1964 and 1965 New York comics conventions. Flo was instrumental in identifying these rarities and providing details of their histories so they could be authenticated and preserved for future generations of fans. Thanks to J. Ballmann. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

wanting to talk to Spider-Man, and calls from fans just wanting to talk to “Marvel,” whoever that was. 9. Flo sent the Photostats to the printers. Once the pages for the comics were done, Photostats were made of them and the comics were sent off to be published. Original art pages were not sent to the printers. Both Flo and Sol Brodsky made sure it all was sent off on time and in proper order. Then it was on to the next issue, and the next, and the next, and it never ended. 10. Flo greeted the guests to the Marvel offices. Every visitor who ever darkened the doors of the Marvel offices between 1963 and 1968 went through Flo. She was the “St. Peter of Marvel” with the Keys to the Kingdom. At least two firsthand visits to the Marvel Bullpen in the 1960s have survived for us to read about. One was by future rocket scientist Fred Landesman (The Comicollector #12), and one was by future convention organizers Bernie Bubnis and Ron Fradkin (The Rocket’s Blast and Comicollector #30). Both visits resulted with the boys being rewarded with Spider-Man and Fantastic Four pin-ups. Good luck trying to find those collector’s item pin-ups today!

A “No-Prize” Every Time! A complete Marvel “no-prize” (in CGC envelope), in Flo’s handwriting, sent out just two months before she left Marvel. Through a series of interviews, Flo assisted in putting together the information needed to establish exactly what a “no-prize” was. J. Ballmann says that her assistance, along with that of collector Tellshiar, was instrumental in enabling collectibles expert Vince Oliva at CGC to professionally authenticate these rare items. [© Marvel Characters, Inc.]

11. Flo knew everyone. Only Stan and Flo knew everyone. Stan, because he was in charge of everybody and handed out the work assignments. And Flo, because she was right there at the front desk, right there at the entrance, and you had to walk up to her to get inside. And everyone did: Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, the Goodmans, Wally Wood, Bill Everett, Gene Colan, Herb Trimpe, John Buscema, the Severins, Dick Ayers, Joe Sinnott, Barry Smith, Neal Adams—everyone. And she talked to them all. And they would hang out together, too. And that is important, since so many of the staff worked from home or a studio and rarely came into the office. And let’s not forget the celebrities: Federico Fellini, Alain Resnais, rock stars Peter and Gordon, even Mario Puzo (admittedly pre-Godfather)—but most of all there were the fans, especially the kids, who came to “see Marvel” but who, instead, saw Flo. Flo was the friendly face of Marvel.

A Tribute To—Who Else?—Flo Steinberg

The Fan Belt (Above:) In Comicollector #12 (Sept.-Oct. 1963), fan Fred Landesman reported on his trip to Marvel, DC, and other companies, with scant info about the former. Thanks to Bill Schelly. (Right:) In RBCC #30 (May 1964), Bernie Bubnis recounted his and buddy Rod Fradkin’s dropping in on Marvel and receiving more patronizing treatment than they’d been getting at DC. By this time, Stan Lee was coming to prefer that readers get their advance news from Marvel’s letters pages rather than from fanzines. Thanks to Aaron Caplan.

12. Flo attended the first comic convention ever, the 1964 New York Comicon. On July 27, 1964, in Union Square, Bernie Bubnis, Ron Fradkin, Ethan Roberts, and Art Tripp made history by staging the world’s first comic convention. Except for editor Julius Schwartz, the DC staff could not begin to comprehend what a comic convention would even entail, so no one from that company showed up. But Marvel did not disappoint: Steve Ditko showed up, Stan’s intern Dave Twedt showed up, and so did Fabulous Flo. She came on her own time and her own volition because she wanted to be there. She wanted to be there because she knew so many of the people in that room already from their visits and their letters and their phone calls, and she wanted to meet them and spend time with them in a non-professional capacity. That is, it was a relief for her to have a conversation that wasn’t constantly re-enforced with sentences such as, “Sorry, but Stan is not here, and neither is Steve or Jack,” and “I’m sorry, but we don’t give tours.” Need it be said

that she was swamped by the many adoring fans who loved her nevertheless? Fans like future Wolverine co-creator Len Wein and future Game of Thrones author George R. R. Martin, both just teens at the time. Future UK radio celebrity Paul Gambaccini described Flo at the 1964 convention as “a model of manners, even though it must have been an odd experience for her, knowing that we valued her presence not just because she was a good person but because she was the representation of Stan and Jack on Earth.” In short, the event bordered on the lines of a religious experience. 13. Flo also attended the second New York convention, the 1965 New York Comicon. The ’64 was the first and kicked off the Age of Conventions, but the ’65 built on it with more pro guests, a better venue, and a larger attendance. And Flo was there during it all; she was in on the ground floor from the beginnings of comic fandom. Everyone knew her, and everyone loved her. And she was there to see it all and make it all happen. 14. Flo wrote all kinds of letters to fanzines, since Stan was too busy to. In the first half or so of the 1960s, Stan read all the fanzines. He did it to know what people were saying about Marvel and, more importantly, to discover what it was the fans really wanted to see in the comics. And he delivered. The revival of Captain America in Strange Tales #114 (a try-out) and Avengers #4 (the real thing) is one result of Stan answering fanzine writers’ requests. And while Stan read the fanzines, he did not have the time to respond to them as well. So, as early as 1963, Flo was writing to fanzines on Stan’s behalf. Some of her earlier letters appear in Jeddak #3 (Nov. 1963), Dateline: Comicdom #6 (Jan. 1964), Yancy Street Journal #4 (Sept. 1964); and her letters continued—too many to list here—throughout her tenure at Marvel.

A Comicbook Panel (Left:) Barry Pearl says that, at the first con he ever went to, circa 2005: “I went up to [Flo] after a panel, as everyone else went up to Stan. I told her how she sent me a box of comics when I was in the hospital in 1965. I knew it was Flo who sent it because I called Marvel to thank them, way back then. When we became friends, she asked to see the actual letter. When she did, she said, ‘I knew it! I wrote it and Stan signed it!’” Letter courtesy of BP. See photo of that con panel on p. 45.

25 Facts That Made Flo “Fabulous”

A Woman Of Letters Quite possibly the first letter Flo wrote that wound up being published directly in a comics fanzine was the above one to Jeddak #3 (Nov. 1963), seen with the cover drawn by the zine’s young editor, Paul Moslander. Another early published note appeared in Ronn Foss’ Dateline: Comicdom #6 (Jan. 1964), printed at right. Flo was very clear in both cases about her precise position: “Corresponding Secretary for Stan Lee.” Thanks to J. Ballmann. [Fantastic Four & Spider-Man TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

15. Flo organized the Merry Marvel Marching Society. Stan created it, Sol Brodsky oversaw the production of the merchandise, and Flo managed and organized the club. Well, “organized” may be too strong a word, since Flo’s fondest memory of the club was throwing the dollar bills all over the office after the mail arrived each day in late 1964. But once the money settled down, it was counted up, and the names of the new members were recorded. Members were then each assigned a membership card with a number, their membership cards were hand-signed by “Ben J. Grimm,” and their kits were sent out. Stan and Flo and Sol didn’t think the club would be very big—but boy were they wrong! After a thousand kits had been mailed out within just a couple weeks, fatigue set in, and the office routine was disrupted to the point where it was negatively affecting the production of the comics. This was unacceptable, so Sol hired a sub-contractor, a company that later became known as “The Super Heroes Club.” Flo started forwarding the information to the sub-contractor, who sent out the membership kits from that point forward with pre-printed Ben Grimm signatures on the cards. Soon after that, she just forwarded all the club-related letters to the sub-contractor. All of the club information went to the sub-contractor, and it has never been seen since. One question about the M.M.M.S. Flo could not answer concerned who the first member of the club was: Who was that first over-eager fan to send that money in and who received card #1? The mystery remains unsolved to this day. 16. Flo was more than just a secretary. See #1-15. For us to think of Flo as just a “secretary,” a simple Betty Brant, is to diminish the role she played in growing Marvel as a company. She did her job, and she did it well—beyond well—with a lot of class, a lot of style, a lot of heart, and with a million-dollar smile and a personality that made fans love Marvel in a way that was always personal. Flo was one of the gang. She was part of the Bullpen gang, she helped out the reporters, she hung out with the other staffers, she wrote and talked to the fans on the phone, she greeted the visitors, and she came to the conventions. That’s what you do when you’re part of the gang. And having the same hairdo as Betty Brant sure didn’t hurt. [A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: See p. 36 for more about the latter.]

17. Flo quit in March 1968 because Marvel wasn’t paying her enough. Marvel’s loss! 18. Flo was featured in a Rolling Stone article in 1971. The article was written by the woman who had replaced her at Marvel: Robin Green. Did any comics company ever have such aspiring secretaries? [A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: And see pp. 54 ff. for more about that!] 19. Flo published her own comicbook, Big Apple Comix, in 1975. It was a one-shot but has the distinction of being one of the first independent comics ever. Also, contributors include Neal Adams, Wally Wood, Ralph Reese, Herb Trimpe, Marie Severin. With such a cast of top-notch creators, she should have started up her own publishing company and put everyone else out of business. 20. Flo ran Captain Company in the early 1970s, that bizarre mail-order bazaar found on the back pages of Warren magazines. So even if you were not a Marvel zombie—but just a zombie fan— you had your chance of crossing paths with Flo if you sent away for a zombie mask or an ant farm or a Mego doll (er, action figure). That person who opened your envelope, filled your order, and sent it out to you was none other than Fabulous Flo herself. 21. Flo starred as herself in What If? #11 in 1978. In this crazy-wild ride of a comic that was written and drawn by Jack Kirby himself, Stan is Mister Fantastic, Jack is the Thing, Sol Brodsky is The Human Torch, and Flo is The Invisible Girl. What is significant is the title of the story, naming these four as the “Original Marvel Bullpen.” So, Flo was officially cited by Jack Kirby himself as one of the four essential members of the early Marvel Bullpen team that kicked off the Marvel Age of Comics. Jack was there, so we can take his word on this one. Stan himself has said as much over the years. 22. Flo attended the 2014 reunion for the 1964 New York Comicon. Along with organizers Bernie Bubnis, Art Tripp, Ethan Roberts, and Ron Fradkin (the last-named via tape recording), attendees Rick Bierman and Len Wein, and dealer Howard

A Tribute To—Who Else?—Flo Steinberg

Invisible—But Still Fabulous! Writer/penciler Jack Kirby made Flo the “Invisible Girl” in his What If? #11 story “What If The Fantastic Four Were the Original Marvel Bullpen?,” from a concept by series editor Roy Thomas. Stan Lee, Sol Brodsky, and Kirby himself were the other three FF members. You saw lots more of this story in conjunction with the preceding Flo Steinberg interview, of course. Inks by Mike Royer & Bill Wray. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc

Rogofsky, Flo regaled the audience about her time at the first comic convention and received the warmest round of applause from the audience that anybody in this world has ever received from an audience.

From Captain America To Captain Company

23. Flo worked for Marvel for over 25 years. She worked there from 1963 to 1968 then returned to Marvel in the 1990s and worked until 2015. A quarter of a century at Marvel—Marvel’s gain!

Flo is seen here at Captain Company, Warren Publishing’s very own mail-order division, whose merchandise catalog was printed in each Warren mag. She worked there from sometime in 1972 until at least 1975. The photo is from Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows’ Warren Companion. Flo is flanked here by an ad page from an issue of Creepy. A/E received an entire article on the “squirrel monkey” ad/caper, but alas, it got crowded out of this issue; we’ll try to squeeze it into a future one! [Ads © the respective copyright holders.]

24. Flo was a proofreader during her second stint at Marvel. And she was a killer proofreader. At one point, I had sent her a rough draft of my Marvel Silver Age Collectibles book for her to review her quotes. As a courtesy, I wanted to make sure I had quoted her

25 Facts That Made Flo “Fabulous”

to me that her father had been a cab driver too, in Boston, where she grew up. She just thought it was the greatest thing. From that moment forward we were best buds. To her, if I was a cab driver I had to be a great guy, ’cause she had known so many. Her Proof Positive! father’s friends were cab Above is a portion of a rough-draft page from J. Ballmann’s book The Full-Color Guide to Marvel Silver Age Collectibles: From drivers who came by the M.M.M.S. to Marvelmania. Sent a preliminary chapter on the M.M.M.S. to assure that she had been quoted correctly, Flo couldn’t house all the time and resist proofreading that page—and the entire chapter; she even corrected the quote from the fanzine editorial! The correction, who were like part of the the little note and happy face, and the mark to the right are all by Flo; the mark on the right side was her indication that she had family. I appreciated that finished proofing a page. Below is the excerpt quoted from Yancy Street Journal #4, with text by Marty Arbunish, then in high Flo was so nice. She even school. [© J. Ballmann, Flo Steinberg, & Marty Abrunish, respectively.] sent me a blurb to put on the back of my book, and her endorsement meant the world to me. Not only that, but she agreed to be rigorously interviewed— once again—for a book on the 1964 Comicon, a book she believed in. Flo accurately from our phone conversation—but she went ahead and helped me to build my career as a writer. I really do owe her that. edited the entire chapter on the M.M.M.S., including the quotes Those two books would be little better than incomplete without her of kids from 1960s fanzines that I had quoted exactly, with their help, her suggestions, her encouragement, and her involvement. errors and all for the sake of authenticity, and she had thought And now? That I can never bug her with another annoying question those were my errors! Boy, was I embarrassed to review her penned about some obscure Marvel detail again, that I can never receive corrections, thinking all the time she must have thought I was some one of her kind notes in the mail again, that I can never again semi-literate adult writing on the level of a fourteen-year-old. answer my phone and be greeted by her happy voice—ever again— absolutely kills me. Kills me. I will miss her always. All I can say 25. Flo was nice. This last one is personal. I first spoke to Flo is… Goodbye, Flo, and thank you. For everything. You have been in 2007, courtesy of a friendly collector named Vince Oliva who and always will be… Fabulous. put us in touch. Thank you, Vince. It was a phone conversation made when I was researching the M.M.M.S. merchandise for my J. Ballmann is a lifelong comicbook fan with a borderline-obsessive collectibles guide. “My God,” I thought, “this is Stan Lee’s secretary interest in anything Marvel. He is the author of eight books, including on the phone!” I stuck close to the questions I had written down, The Confounding Case of the Comic Collector Killer, The 1964 and my script, and was probably sounding like a typical deer-inNew York Comicon: The True Story behind the World’s First Comic the-headlights fan tripping over his own words in the presence of Convention, The Full-Color Guide to Marvel Silver Age Collectibles: this larger-than-life celebrity. But Flo was nice to me. She broke the From M.M.M.S. to Marvelmania, and The Marvel Super Heroes on much-too-serious “business tone” of the conversation and asked TV! An Episode Guide to the 1966 Grantray-Lawrence Animation me a little about myself. When I mentioned I had lived in New York Cartoons, Book 1: Iron Man. He has just finished Tales from the DMV, City also, as she did, for several years, and that I had driven a cab due out late this year, a book on the Barbarian Book Shop, the longestthere to pay my way through college, she just lit up and revealed surviving comicbook store in America. Most recently, he has completed research of the Grantray-Lawrence Animation archives and is currently hard at work on a 1967 Spider-Man cartoon episode guide, also due out later this year.

“It Was Fifty Years Ago Today…” This photo from the 2014 reunion of attendees of the 1964 comics convention was taken at the 1964 New York Comicon. (L. to r.:) Ethan Roberts, Bernie Bubnis, Rick Bierman, Art Tripp, Flo, Len Wein, & Howard Rogofsky. Photo by Lucille Bubnis.

“’Nuff Said (Ha!)” The closing words of one of Flo’s letters to J. Ballmann.

Fabulous FLO STEINBERG – Part 5

“Wait A Minute! FLO STEINBERG???” by Dr. Michael Vassallo

[This piece originally appeared at http://timely-atlas-comics.blogspot.com/2017/07/fabulous-flo-steinberg-1939-2017.html, and was retyped for Alter Ego by Brian K. Morris. It has been edited slightly for this printing in Alter Ego.]

his one is tough.

I was out west this year once again at the San Diego Con with a large family contingent. The trip went as one might imagine … incredible crowd sizes, frenetic, hectic craziness... but a lot of fun. My middle younger brother Nicholas flew out from Minneapolis, and it was the first time we attended a con together since the days of Phil Seuling in the 1970s, when Harvey Kurtzman once saw him (my brother) fall off a chair during a panel, inquiring from the dais, “Are you OK back there?”

“This Gal, This Darlin’!” Flo in a great shot against a Manhattan skyline, some years back—and Marie Severin’s faux cover for Fabulous Flo! comics, which first appeared in Jon B. Cooke’s Comic Book Artist #18 (2002). Do yourself a favor and get hold of this great back issue! Thanks to Michael Mikulovsky for the latter scan; thanks to Dr. Michael J. Vassallo for most other art and photos accompanying this article. [Art © Marie Severin.]

Contrary to complaints that the show isn’t about comicbooks any longer, there were many, many dealers at the bottom of the arena, and I was able to purchase a nice handful of Timely teen issues of the Cindy Comics and Lana Comics variety, as well as about 20 issues of Mad magazine from the 1960s.

I caught up with friends from fandom—Batton Lash, Jackie Estrada, Nicky Wheeler-Nicholson, Craig Yoe, Ger Apeldoorn, Alex Grand, even my pal Bill Cole—missed seeing a ton of others (I could not find Danny Fingeroth), took a lot of photos and video, attended several Jack Kirby panels celebrating the 100th anniversary of his birth, and there even was a meeting with Stan Lee himself. Well, my wife Maggie had the meeting with Stan. An accidental one. On Saturday of the con, as we always do, my family splits up upon arrival. I go immediately to the comic dealers section and she heads for the craziness of the rest. My children go off on a third route, I have no idea where. At some point in the afternoon, we all get a group text message and a close-up photo of Stan Lee. Now, I should have really been more in tune with convention guests, and I think I’d heard Stan was a scheduled guest somewhere, but the recent passing of his wife Joan made me feel Stan might not attend.

Maggie’s Marvels (Left:) The photo snapped by Doc V.’s wife, Maggie, at the time of her brief encounter with Stan Lee at the San Diego Comic-Con, 2017. (Right:) Maggie and a Robert Downey, Jr., lookalike in an Iron Man costume, probably at the same con. Photo by Dr. Michael J. Vassallo. Both photos courtesy of Maggie Vassallo.

Well, I was wrong. My wife ended up, completely by accident, somewhere in the middle of all the con craziness, standing right next to Stan Lee. She extended her hand and introduced herself as Michael Vassallo’s wife. Stan, to his credit, immediately replied, “Mike Vassallo! I know him! Nice to finally meet you!” And

“Wait A Minute! FLO STEINBERG???”

with a parting “Excelsior!” he was whisked away by his “Secret Service” detail to wherever it was he was going. Which proves one indelible point. No matter how much you hate the main non-comics convention venue, always stay beside your wife or you’ll be sorry. I am. The last day, Sunday, started as always with me checking online as I got myself ready for breakfast at our hotel. Pulling up the page on my iPad, a short post in my Facebook feed at the very top stopped me cold … “R.I.P. Flo Steinberg.” Blood drained from my face and I immediately felt queasy with my heart pounding. I was stunned, yelling to my wife that an online report was saying Flo had died, which made her gasp in horror. I immediately texted my friends Nick Caputo and Barry Pearl and asked them if they could confirm this, and Nick, at 12 noon New York time, wrote back immediately the solitary word: “Yes.”

Background It all started with Nick Caputo. Many years ago, 1996, 1997—I forget what year—Nick and I attended a con in New York and Flo was a guest, or just an attendee—I also don’t remember which. We were in the main dealers’ room and Nick pointed out a smiling cute-as-a-button woman to me across the long aisle, exclaiming, “Hey! Flo Steinberg is here!” Standing all alone, with no one even recognizing her. Nick and I walked over and he introduced me, having previously known her from numerous talks and phone calls about the early days of Marvel. Flo was exactly as we all knew her, sweet as can be, smiling wide as the Cheshire Cat, friendly as a spring flower, and probably somewhat embarrassed by my gushing. We spoke for quite a while and then we parted, exchanging contact information so I could pursue additional questions in the future. The fact I was Nick’s friend was a good enough “letter of introduction” for her. No one had any paper to write on and all I had in my wallet was one of my business cards, so I gave it to her and asked her to pay no attention to the front, while I wrote my home number on the back. She joked about needing a good dentist and we parted ways, Nick and I just thrilled by the meeting. I never did call Flo, as time slipped away. Jump forward ten years. 2007: I was in between secretaries, and my wife Maggie filled in for what ended up being two years. One day I was perusing my appointment book and saw the name “Florence Steinberg” penciled in later in the week as a new patient, the appointment made by my wife, who took the call. At first glance, nothing registered. In fact, I have several “Steinbergs” as patients, so my thought was that it likely a relative of one of them. On the day of the appointment, I continued to inexplicably ponder the name, actually saying it over and over in my mind… Florence Steinberg… Florence Steinberg ... something just bothered me, as if I was partially recognizing the name on a subconscious level. Then in a flash it struck me: “Wait a minute! FLO STEINBERG??? It couldn’t be!” I asked Maggie what she remembered about the woman on the phone and she replied something to the effect that it was just a nice-sounding lady, nothing more she could recall. Well, as the time approached, I kept looking out to my small waiting room, straining to see if anyone had walked in. Soon I was busy and could not pay further attention, taking care of business and losing track of the time. At some point Maggie poked her head in and said casually, “Florence Steinberg is here,” and I froze, rose, and walked out to my waiting room to finally see who it actually was.

The Yancy Street Gang The self-styled “Yancy Street Gang” look over one of Barry Pearl’s scrapbooks. (Left to right:) Barry Pearl, Nick Caputo, Dr. Michael J. Vassallo. Courtesy of all three—but it was sent by Barry.

It was Flo. She smiled and exclaimed, “Hi, Doc!” We hugged and embraced like old friends. Recall that I had met her only one single time previously, ten years earlier. I could not believe she was standing in my office. As Flo explained it, she had kept my old business card (10 years!) and when the time came, decided to call me up. I told her that I didn’t care how insulted she was, I could never, ever, ever (ever!) accept remuneration for anything, something she was not initially happy about, but I was adamant and she relented. That began a ten-year period of friendship that was as deep as it was wide. Flo came up every three months and we would have two-hour lunches, usually at her favorite place, Burger Heaven on Lexington Avenue and 62nd Street, occasionally joined by my wife Maggie. Before you know it, Nick Caputo, Barry Pearl, Flo, and I were frequently having dinner together—a “real” Yancy Street Gang we were, with a bona fide charter member in our midst! For real! We were regulars at places as diverse as The Oyster Bar in Grand Central Terminal and The Pastrami King on Lexington Avenue. What great times we had, talking about everything under the sun, and rarely about comics. One evening, after a New York Comicon that Flo didn’t even attend, she met us afterward for a nightcap of coffee and apple pie at her favorite diner on Lexington Avenue. Of course, our conversations were occasionally about Marvel, as Flo spun wonderful stories about her old days there. Flo and I missed sharing a birthday by a single day. She was born on March 17 (in 1939) and I’m March 18. She grew up in Boston, graduating from UMass Amherst in 1960 and volunteered in campaigns of all three Kennedy brothers at one time or another. Her first job was with the New England Telephone Company, but by March of 1963 she was being interviewed by Stan Lee for a secretarial job at the nascent Marvel Comics, where her job as Stan’s “Gal Friday” or “corresponding secretary” actually included nearly everything under the sun short of actually creating the comics. Dubbed “Fabulous Flo” by Stan Lee, she answered the phones, greeted guests, made sure the art went to the printer, and answered fan mail that would bear Stan’s signature. And she was a beloved figure in that tiny office, with only a thin partition separating them from Goodman’s Magazine Management department. Flo early on dealt closely with the small production staff… Sol Brodsky, Stan Goldberg, letterers Artie Simek and Sam Rosen, then later Marie Severin, Roy Thomas, and Herb Trimpe… but all the

Fabulous Flo Steinberg—Part 5

Flo’s post-Marvel years were a swirling dive into the early underground comix scene, taking her to San Francisco and Oregon before she returned to work for Jim Warren. In 1975 she published Big Apple Comix, which became one of the very first independent comics, as opposed to an actual “underground.” A “who’s who” of top talent, both indie/underground and mainstream, lent their skills to Flo’s baby (see pp. 17-20).

Have You Ever Seen Them Together? Betty Brant, Peter Parker’s first girlfriend, just happened to be the “gal Friday” of J. Jonah Jameson, while Flo performed the same duties for Stan Lee. This Betty Brant/Flo Steinberg image comparison is from http:// sauropennacchioli.blogspot.it/2015/11/linattuale-steve-ditko-e-luomoragno.html?spref=fb&zx=9711068aa1d73a7e. Betcha can’t say that three times fast—in Italian or English! The Brant art, of course, is by Steve Ditko. [Betty Brant art TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

freelance artists who came through the door adored her. She had nothing but nice things to say about all of them. Literally! Asked about some of them, her replies were spoken in that wonderful, warm and distinctive voice with a partially Bostonian, partially something else I-quite-can’t-put-my-finger-on accent/inflection… “What was Jack Kirby like, Flo?” “Jack was nice!” “What was Steve Ditko like, Flo?” “Steve was nice!” “What was Wally Wood like, Flo?” “Wally was nice!” “What was Stan Lee like, Flo?” “Stan was nice!” “What was Sol Brodsky like, Flo?” “Sol was nice!”

Skip ahead to the ’90s: Flo was finally back working for Marvel—as a proofreader—and she loved the fact that many of the young folks there didn’t even know who she was. She always had wonderful things to say about all the editors there, and one of her favorites was Marvel Masterworks editor Cory Sedlmeier, who adored Flo. In 2002, TwoMorrows Publications and editor Jon B. Cooke devoted an entire half issue of the magazine Comic Book Artist #18 (March ’02) to a “Fabulous Flo Steinberg Celebration.” A labor of love, four different articles were published over the course of 46 pages, including a great in-depth interview with Flo. Marie Severin rendered a beautiful homage to Jack Kirby’s iconic cover for Fantastic Four #51, complete with Kirby Krackle. Flo provided tons of old photos of herself from the early days of Marvel. When she was invited back to attend the “50th Anniversary of the Original New York Comicon” panel at the 2014 New York Comicon (she had attended that first, one-day convention back in 1964), she was initially reluctant to go. We spoke about the event, and I wasn’t the only one to gently nudge her to accept. She ended up having a wonderful time and was glad she attended. She did say it was going to be the last time, though. A private person, Flo never felt comfortable with all the attention fandom focused on her. Over the years, in this century’s Golden Age of Comics history research and book publication, every time someone wrote a book on some aspect of Marvel’s Silver Age

“What was Federico Fellini like, Flo?” “He was nice!” And take a good look at Jonah Jameson’s secretary Betty Brant, as drawn by Steve Ditko starting in 1964... She’s Flo! Flo occasionally simultaneously modeled for Magazine Management’s other magazines, specifically, for example, in Screen Stars Album #4 (1964), an annual spin-off of sorts of the long-running Screen Stars magazine (the flagship film magazine in Goodman’s stable, and a publication hailing back to April 1944, when it was edited by Bessie Little). In this sham article, young, pretty “Florence White” from a small Massachusetts high school gets her wish to work with Hollywood stars fulfilled! Before Photoshop, there was cut and paste by the Magazine Management production department to insert Flo into photos with a bevy of Hollywood’s top stars…. In 1965 Flo was showcased on the initial M.M.M.S. record “The Voices of Marvel,” along with all the rest of the Marvel bullpen staff (short Steve Ditko). Flo makes her appearance at the 40-second mark. Flo often expressed her dismay in leaving Marvel in 1968 when she couldn’t get a raise from Martin Goodman, calling him a cheapskate. A stunningly beautiful young woman, Flo was pursued by men who visited the office. One in particular that Flo mentioned to me was Forry Ackerman, frequently up to see Magazine Management and who was frustrated by his lack of success in getting a date.

Only You Can Prevent Forrest J. Ackerman! (Sorry—the heading above is an edited version of an old Laugh-In joke about Forrest Tucker that Ye Editor couldn’t resist recycling!) Anyhoo: Above is a later gift to Flo from Forry, the fabled science-fiction agent and editor of Warren’s Famous Monsters of Filmland: the June 1969 issue of the SF digest Spaceway, hand-inscribed in red pen by Ackerman, opposite a Frank R. Paul illustration for a story reprinted from the 1930s. Ironically, Paul had also been the cover artist of Marvel Comics #1 in 1939! Thanks to Dr. Michael J. Vassallo. [© the respective copyright holders.]

“Wait A Minute! FLO STEINBERG???”

“HOW YOU CAN WORK WITH THE STARS” For Magazine Management’s Screen Stars Album #4 in 1964, as per Vassallo’s description on p. 36, Flo’s face was cut-and-pasted onto others’ bodies in photos to make it appear that she was hobnobbing with top movie stars of the day. Flo is featured in a total of 18 photos in the 6-page piece. Here’s a sampling, courtesy of Doc V.:

From New York… This pic of “Flo White” on the way to get the assignment was probably taken not far from Magazine Management’s then-workplace on Madison Avenue.

…To Hollywood! One photo showed her talking to heartthrob Tony Curtis. By this time he had established himself as a fine actor in The Sweet Smell of Success and The Defiant Ones, and as a gifted comedian in Some Like It Hot.

history, one of the first people to be contacted was Flo. She would field phone calls from fans and authors alike, patiently answer as best she could, but confided to me that she grew tired of it as time went on, repeating the same stories over and over. “It was just a job; I tell them what they want to hear,” she’d say to me. Flo also was not keen on taking photos with fans. I knew this and never in ten years ever asked her to take a photo with me. Now I wish I had. She wouldn’t have refused. My pal, author Dewey Cassell, a close friend of Flo, took a great photo with her in 2012 outside one of Flo’s favorite eating haunts downtown on a visit to New York. I cropped out several background individuals that Dewey said Flo thought looked straight out of central casting! Flo didn’t want Dewey to publish the photo until she passed away, a morbid request to be sure, but showed the depths of her privacy wishes. I’m jealous, Dewey. Additionally, Flo did not suffer fools gladly and was annoyed by incompetence. This is why she was still in demand as a proofreader for Marvel. She would constantly complain about today’s generation’s inattention to proper grammar. It drove her crazy. She would say, “People think I’m always so nice, but I’m not.” I would then call her a liar to her face and she’d break into a wide grin and laugh, saying, “Oh Doc, you just know me too well!”

With The Rat Pack Here “Flo White” seems to be enjoying herself at a nightclub, talking with Sammy Davis, Jr., one of the best pop singers of the period—and a pal of Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, and the rest of the so-called Rat Pack.

Audrey Hepburn Here’s “Flo White” with Holly Golightly herself—well, actually, Ms. Hepburn had more recently starred as Eliza Dolittle in the movie version of My Fair Lady. [© the respective copyright holders.]

Truth be told, Flo rarely discussed Marvel and comics and was always more interested in our families and our pets, especially my Sheltie, Cindy. She would always ask about Cindy, knowing her as a young dog and grieving with our family when she passed away. She would even ask me how Barry’s cats were doing, although she owned no pets of her own. Within the last two years, as friends and acquaintances one

Music To Her Ears Musician and poet

Todd Tamanend Clark with Flo at Phil Seuling’s 1975 Comic Art Convention at the Hotel Commodore in New York City, which ran from July 3-7. It’s printed here with Todd’s permission. [© the respective copyright holders]

Fabulous Flo Steinberg—Part 5

“Maybe He Goes Through A Car-Wash, Kendall!” This photo from the 2014 New York Comic-Con shows Flo (while on the panel celebrating the 50th anniversary of the 1964 con that had started it all) holding up a postcard she had sent in the 1960s to fan Kendall Whitehouse, who took the pic. Also seen is a close-up of the postcard itself, with Flo’s handwritten response to a question in his earlier letter. Thanks to Kendall & Doc V. [Photos © Kendall Whitehouse.]

by one passed on, Flo would often wax melancholy and mention how she was starting to feel time slipping away. She had very close friends she would always talk to and occasionally socialize with, Linda Fite and Larry Hama being two of the closest. Additionally there were Marie Severin (before her own health downturn) and Trina Robbins, as well as others I’m forgetting (for which I apologize). She began to ask herself what she was going to do with all the “stuff” she had. Knowing I was a big science-fiction and vintage paperback fan, Flo began to bring me stacks of her old paperbacks every time she saw me. These books were battered, lovingly well-read, and a wonderful cross-section of historical, science-fiction, and fantasy published primarily in the 1950s through early 1970s… publishers like Ace, Lancer, Cardinal, DAW, Pocket Books, and Avon. I last saw Flo in January. We ate lunch at Burger Heaven on 62nd Street and took a walk around the block, past The Society of Illustrators. The weather was mild and we made our way back to my office corner. For a few moments we talked about possibly getting her to come up to my house for a visit on a weekend. I had asked Flo up several times previously, and Barry Pearl offered to drive her up on a Saturday with Nick Caputo to spend the day with us and Maggie. Flo thought the idea wonderful but never committed. Flo occasionally would visit her closest friend Linda Fite upstate (I believe she was godmother to Linda and Herb’s children), so she was familiar with the areas north of the city. On this January day, she said that when the weather got warmer, she’d love to come up and see my wife Maggie at our house On The Street Where You Dine in northern Westchester Flo with collector Dewey Cassell. Thanks County. The long lunch to Dewey & Doc V. for this photo.

running late, on the corner of Lexington Avenue and 60th Street, we hugged each other and said our goodbyes, with me always telling her to be careful getting back home. In May, Flo called me up to apologize for being away for so long, telling me she had been hospitalized recently after passing out on the street while doing her laundry. As she related, “One minute I was outside the laundromat waiting and the next thing I knew I was on the floor looking up at an EMS worker.” The diagnosis was dangerously severe, and Flo ended up having surgery for a cerebral aneurysm. She was now back home and doing somewhat OK, all things considered, and would let me know when she was on her feet again. I was startled, worried sick, wanting to know whether there was anything I could do and insisting she please take care of herself, something she promised she would do. She was having trouble with her home phone, so she gave me her cell phone

If They Asked Me, I Could Write A Book Just a few of the paperbacks that Flo gave to Michael Vassallo over the past few years of her life. Most of those shown are historical novels.

“Wait A Minute! FLO STEINBERG???”

up, the address of the service in the GPS. It was going to be tough to make it on time, a 90-minute drive with the estimate that we’d arrive at the exact start of the service. Well, let me tell you, estimates are wrong. Most of the driving (about 70 miles) was on back roads, rather than highways. The countryside is beautiful! Breathtaking, in fact. A combination of farms surrounded by sheer mountains and state parks. The GPS told us we’d arrived at our destination—and it was the middle of nowhere. Tracking backwards, now we were lost. A half hour later, after talking to shop attendants and passers-by on a main road, to no help at all, I found an online direction to the cemeteries in Ulster County and the proper direction we needed. We had been only a mile away all along and wasted 30 minutes going in the other direction.

Plane & Fancy Flo was very good friends with Linda Fite and artist Herb Trimpe during the decades the two were married. Here she poses next to Herb’s beloved biplane, which is also seen on p. 8. Thanks to Trina Robbins.

number to check in with her. About two weeks later I called and didn’t get through. The July 4th holiday then was a maze of family events as I spent a week upstate visiting my parents and with my two younger brothers’ families. My return began the rush towards the San Diego Con. I took Flo’s number with me to San Diego, planning to call her from out here and tell her how the con was. I go to San Diego every year, and every year Flo wanted a day-by-day account of what I did and who I saw. In fact, on my cell phone voicemail is a long message from Flo last year asking about all I did and saw at that year’s con. This message is now priceless to me, as she asks about Barry, Nick, and my wife Maggie. I don’t believe Flo had ever attended the San Diego Con. She was occasionally invited as a guest there over the years but always turned the honor down, not wanting to travel, or to deal with all the crush of fandom that would certainly occur. Which brings us back to Sunday morning and the sad news of Flo’s passing. Social media and news sites were exploding with comments, tributes, and reminiscences from folks who knew and worked with Flo back in the glory days of Marvel and her indie/underground days. Fans who received letters from her feel (understandably so) that a warm piece of their younger life has blinked out. I absolutely know Flo would not want all this fuss over her.

Just as we pulled up, a last car, the hearse, was pulling away in the opposite direction, leaving a solitary worker who told me the service had been about a half hour and I’d just missed it. Damn. Maggie and I went over and paid our respects. The worker allowed us to shovel some dirt onto the mound and we did so, four shovels full… Maggie, myself, and one each for Nick and Barry. About 20 people had attended and I assume everyone went back to Linda Fite’s house, which, I was told by the worker, was nearby. We decided not to try to find Linda’s house and began to make our way home. The trip was a success anyway, our goal met. We said good-by to Flo, which was all we really wanted to do.

The WHO’S WHO of American Comic Books 1928-1999 Online Edition Created by Jerry G. Bails FREE – online searchable database – FREE www.bailsprojects.com – No password required

The lung cancer was news to me, and I’m betting Flo didn’t even know about it at the time of our last phone call. From all reports, the end came quickly, which is a good thing. It was Flo’s friend Larry Hama who made the announcement. He was there for Flo when the final crisis hit. Flo was no shrinking violet, all appearances to the contrary. Neither of us being terribly religious, we’d spoken about and discussed the concept of death and mortality many times over the course of the years. Knowing Flo and knowing how she felt about facing life head-on, I’m sure she faced a Ditko-rendered vision of eternity the same way. Head-on. On Thursday, July 27, 2017, there was a graveside service for Flo. That morning, I canceled all my afternoon appointments and decided I would try to get all the way up to Ulster County to attend with Maggie. I caught a 12:45 train out of Grand Central and Maggie was waiting at the Croton Harmon station to pick me

The final panel of writer/artist Wally Wood’s story “My Word,” done for Flo Steinberg’s Big Apple Comix in 1975. Sorry we had to black out one word— and it wasn’t the EC-derived “squa tront .” [© Estate of Wally Wood.]

Art by John Romita. Captain America TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Fabulous FLO STEINBERG – Part 6

Tributes, Si! Tears, No! A/E EDITOR’S INTRODUCTION: By the above title, of course, I mean that this section is intended as a celebration of Flo Steinberg’s life, not a mournful sobbing about her death—the last thing she would have appreciated. If we’d wanted to—and believe us, a part of us did want to—we could’ve filled this entire issue with reminiscences of Flo by those who knew and loved her... plus those who merely encountered her once or twice when they were very young. But these few memories that precede and follow must represent all of the many who will simply read them, nod their heads, and say, “Yeah, that was Flo, all right!”

Flo Steinberg at the 2014 anniversary-panel of the 1964 con. Photo courtesy of Dr. Michael J. Vassallo.

“Flo Steinberg Was The Real Face Of Marvel Comics In The 1960s”

Four-Color Flo Invisible Flo & the Sub-Mariner in What If? #11 (Oct. 1978). Pencils & script by Jack Kirby; inks by Mike Royer & Bill Wray. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

by Bernie Bubnis

e early comic book fans who lived in the New York City vicinity were a privileged bunch. Just open up a suburb’s phonebook and speak with your favorite pro. Maybe even visit them at their house or office. Imagine, a beer with Mike Sekowsky, a ham sandwich with Jack Kirby, cookies with Joe Giella and his kids. Just imagine, a day in New York City and a visit with Joe Kubert at the DC offices. We sure were a lucky bunch. Then there were the Marvel offices. If there was a “Bullpen,” it was hidden away. No “tours” of the workplace, like at DC. The only person to greet us was Flo Steinberg. No Stan Lee, no Don Heck, no Artie Simek, no professional artist or writer in sight. Wow, were we ever a lucky bunch! Flo was really the only person we wanted to visit. More beautiful than any teacher from school you ever fell in love with, and she knew more about the business of comicbooks than any of us. No doubt about it, Flo Steinberg was the real face of Marvel Comics in the 1960s, and we loved her. Her job at Marvel was often to act as the buffer between fans and Stan Lee. Before her, various office help such as Trudy Ross would answer calls from fans who wanted to speak with Stan. One of those fans was me. I wanted to re-draw a “Human Torch” story from the 1950s for my fanzine Comic Heroes Revisited. Only Trudy spoke with me, even over the phone. As Marvel’s sales increased, so did the interest from fandom. Stan was going to need a better sentry at that front door. Enter Ms. Flo. I have absolutely no memory of Trudy’s voice, but I will never forget the sweet sound of Flo’s

“This Means War!” (Left:) Bernie Bubnis, circa 1964. Would you let this guy wander around your office? (Just kidding, Bernie!) (Above:) Hard to imagine what “ancient war” Stan Lee dispatched Flo to find a book about, since The Man has often said he’s never done research in his entire life! He and his kookie crew were much more adept at imagining future combat, as per these Kang the Conqueror panels penciled by Jack Kirby and inked by Dick Ayers for The Avengers #8 (Sept. 1964); script by Stan, of course. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Fabulous Flo Steinberg—Part 6

voice telling me, “Sure, you can visit our offices. I’m here every day.” I was accustomed to the DC “open door” policy where you could stroll through the work areas and almost be guaranteed a meeting with an artist or editor. I was very disappointed on my first visit to Marvel, sort of. No Stan Lee, no artists, no free original art, but then... there was Flo. From 1963 to 1968, she was the one who answered all of Marvel’s telephone calls, greeted Marvel’s visitors, coordinated Marvel’s Merry Marvel Marching Society fan club, and answered all of Marvel’s mail as Marvel’s comicbook sales started hitting new heights—including sending out postcards to fans and the infamous no-prizes as well. Stan got himself a bit more than just a sergeantat-arms to guard the Marvel lair. On one visit I learned she had a new job. Stan wanted a book on some ancient war, and Flo would soon make it happen. She asked if I knew any used book stores in the area. Wow, sure… I used to live in one. My father was a gangster and my mother was... just troubled. Therefore, when my father had a “job” in the city, he took me along, and then dumped me with a woman named Gertrude who owned a book shop (Books and Things) on the Fourth Avenue Book Row. I knew she had every book ever printed, and none were more than two bucks. Let’s go, Flo.

Auld Acquaintance Flo and Bernie at the 2014 panel that celebrated the 50th anniversary of the very first comics convention (in 1964), in which Bernie had been a prime mover—and which Flo had attended as Marvel’s representative. Photo taken at the New York Comic-Con by Lucille Bubnis.

During her lunch break we took the subway downtown. I learned she was from the Boston suburbs and this Marvel job was her first since graduating college. I must have told her my life story, because I remember her saying in typical Flo-nicely, “Nothing is as bad as you think it is. You’ll probably be working for Stan someday.” I never thought I would amount to anything, so I always remembered her confidence in me. Gertrude loved Flo, and Flo loved Gertrude. Whatever the book was, Flo was happy to rush back uptown with it under her arm, and the price was only a little more than two bucks. Gertrude still had every book ever printed, minus one. Flo was always complimenting the fans who visited the offices. She had the unique ability to make you feel you knew her your entire life. Or at least, wished you did. It is the very reason I thought nothing of inserting myself into a situation that involved her and another comic book employee. I learned a lesson: never mix someone’s personal business with fanboy comicbook business. The hard way. I was aware that a comicbook professional had asked Flo out on a date, because I was at his house while he made the phone call. I really thought they would hit it off as a couple. From the hang-dog look on his face, I quickly reconsidered a career as a matchmaker. She had said no. On my next visit, I asked her, “Why?” I did not sense that she was angry, but her face flat-lined with emotion. Dead silence, then: “You want to get a hot dog downstairs?” On the street below, she reminded me to mind my own business and concentrate more on my comicbook questions than her personal life. It was the only time I remember feeling shorter than Flo. She cut me off at the knees, but did it without raising her voice or yelling at me. I was embarrassed, but by the time we returned to the offices, she was smiling and talking and I was still in love with Flo Steinberg, even though I was shorter by a foot and a half.

July 27, 1964, was a very hot day in New York City. Cannot imagine too many people who would want to put in a full workday, then board a subway downtown, just to spend another few hours with over sixty comic book fans stuffed into a large room with a broken air-conditioner. Then again, not everyone in New York City took their job as seriously as Flo did. And, anyway, everyone at that first comic convention knew Flo actually loved her job. J. Ballmann interviewed her for his book on that convention many years later. She never forgot us: “It was like 100 degrees and ice was melting all over the place. They invited Stan, but he couldn’t go. He was so busy writing and this was a new phenomenon, the fan convention. So I went to hold up the Marvel flag. It was a nice bunch of people. It was a very pleasant few hours with chit-chatting.” Hard to believe that Flo left Marvel because they refused her a $5-a-week raise. I sure knew that Flo could put her foot down when she wanted to, and this was the perfect time for her to start new careers. Publishing her own comicbook, Big Apple Comix, organizing Jim Warren’s mail-order business Captain Company (“I worked with all the rubber spiders, giant balloons, and six-foot Vampi posters”), other publishing ventures, and finally returning to Marvel as a proofreader. In 2014 the New York Comic Con was to be the site of a gathering of fans who had attended that first con in 1964. Two of the original organizers stood next to each other for at least five minutes before they recognized each other. Art Tripp and me. Hard to place a face, you know. Not the same case with Flo. She was so gracious and still beautiful. She remembered my name, kissed my cheek, and noticed the smiling lady standing at my side. As if she had known my wife for years and years, she hugged her tightly and said, “He always asked so many questions. Is he still like that?” As if barely a beat of time had elapsed in over the past half century, it is my fondest memory of Flo Steinberg. I’m so sad. We will never hear that beautiful voice again.

Tributes, Si! Tears, No!

“Me & Flo” by Trina Robbins The first time I met Flo Steinberg, I didn’t know she was she. In August 1966, I had just come to New York from Los Angeles, and one of the first things I did was visit Marvel Comics in order to interview Stan Lee for the Los Angeles underground newspaper The Free Press. My L.A.-style mini dress was pretty extreme for New York, where fashions were still comparatively conservative, so Flo, I later learned, went back to the bullpen and announced, “You should see what’s up front.” It was two years before I really met Flo. Art Spiegelman had introduced me to my childhood idol, Wally Wood, and shortly after I met him, Woody (as he preferred to be called) went out to dinner with me and my then-boyfriend. He brought along a pretty girl with prematurely graying hair and a young face whom he simply introduced as “Flo.” We were well into dinner when Flo happened to mention that she worked at Marvel Comics, and my boyfriend, a sharper tack than me, asked, “Are you Fabulous Flo Steinberg?”

visited me every day for a week, bringing Paul’s delicious soup. Flo went to work for Gary Arlington, owner of the San Francisco Comic Book Company, the first comicbook store in San Francisco to sell underground comix. I think during the time that she worked there, more people visited Gary’s store than ever before. They all wanted to bask in the presence of Fabulous Flo Steinberg! Eventually Flo returned to New York, but she had caught the underground comix bug, and in 1975 she edited and self-published what is generally regarded as the first alternative comic book, Big Apple Comics, featuring the work of her friends, who just happened to be comics luminaries like Woody, Neal Adams, Denny O’Neil, and Herb Trimpe. None of these guys would have done these comics for anyone but Flo.

Off and on through the years, Flo returned to San Francisco for visits, and she stayed at our house, and when I Before “Friends” Became visited New York, I would stay at Flo’s The Name Of A TV Show crowded apartment, until, sometime in (Left to right:) Flo, artist Steve Leialoha, and the early 21st century, the place became artist/author Trina Robbins, 1989. Thanks to TR. so full of memorabilia and collectibles and, sometimes, just plain junk, that she wouldn’t let people into her place anymore. After that I stayed with other friends or in hotels, but we always got The next day Flo showed up at my storefront and we’ve together. It wasn’t a trip to New York without Flo! been friends ever since. By December, 1969, when I set out for underground-comix mecca San Francisco, in a car full of I didn’t get to New York that often, and the last time Flo visited underground cartoonists, Flo had already left Marvel after Martin San Francisco was the late ’80s, so we kept in touch by phone. Flo Goodman, in one of the dumbest moves ever, refused to give her a was the last person in the galaxy without a computer, but $5 raise. I left my cat with her, because she, too, had felt the lure of in later years she relented enough to at least get a cell the Cool Grey City of Love and was planning to visit and return phone. I’d answer the phone and hear her distinctive my cat in a few months. voice: “Oh Trina, it’s Flo!” She didn’t need to tell me. Nobody else sounded like Flo, with her unique blend She and the cat arrived in the winter of 1970, and Flo of a Boston accent and whatever else (I never could decided to stay (the cat didn’t have much choice, but I think figure it out!). Or there would be a message on my he preferred the mild California winter to the mean streets of machine: “It’s just Flo. You don’t need to call back.” New York). But first she flew back to New York, piled her belongings in a car, and headed west. But of course I always phoned her back. What I wouldn’t give for just one of her The early 1970s was a tough time for me. I was messages, to keep forever! alone, a single mother of a baby, and not accepted by the all-male underground comix world of San Francisco. To too many of these guys, freedom from the restraints of a Comics Code meant that they could express some frightening misogyny in their comix, and when I objected that depictions of women being raped, tortured, and murdered was not funny, their response was, “You have no sense of humor.” As far as they were concerned, I was a man-hating feminazi bitch, and I was ignored, left out of their comix, and not invited to their parties. But I was never completely friendless, and Flo, Goddess bless her, was one of the dear friends who stuck “If You’re Going To San by me. Her then-boyfriend Paul was a great cook, and Francisco…” whenever I’d visit their place in the Mission district, he (Left:) Flo as a “flower child,” early 1970s. would sit me down and feed me. I wasn’t penniless and Courtesy of Dr. Michael J. Vassallo. starving, honest, but often I would simply get too stressed (Right:) Flo in costume—as a teddy bear, to eat. Once when both I and my baby daughter Casey 1988. Don’t ask! Courtesy of Trina. were so sick that I couldn’t get out of bed, Flo and Paul

Fabulous Flo Steinberg—Part 6

“One Last Glimmer Of Sunshine” by Tom Brevoort

Tom Brevoort Veteran Marvel editor.

Stan Lee once remarked that Flo Steinberg was a little ray of sunshine, and that’s how I choose to think of her. From the moment she stepped back into the Bullpen twenty or so years ago, she became a surrogate den mother to the assortment of crackpots, degenerates, and ne’erdo-wells that make up Marvel’s editorial and production team.

Flo didn’t care that most of those young newcomers had no idea of her tenure in the industry; that she’d worked as Stan’s “gal Friday” in the formative days of Marvel; that she was, at least visually, the inspiration for Betty Brant. That she had followed Wally Wood around, ashtray in hand, to keep him from trailing ashes all over Stan’s office, and that she had answered all of the fan mail for years, sending a young Walt Simonson the Thor issue that he had missed and ensuring that he’d eventually work for the company. That’s because Flo wasn’t a comicbook person, not really. Oh, she knew all of the characters, had been there when most of them were just starting out. But that part was just a job. What Flo really was is a comicbook people person. For whatever reason, she found simpatico spirits in all of the nuts and goofballs and social misfits that make up the comicbook industry, and she had good feelings for pretty much all of them—with the exception of the cruel and the craven, for whom she had little use. She became a mentor and a mother-confessor to whole generations of young professionals, some of whom would go on to make an extraordinary mark on the field, and some who’d exit the business thereafter but carry Flo’s lessons along with her in life. She was a sharp proofreader who regularly decried the lack of spelling and grammar skills among the younger generations. If you were any good at either, Flo loved you, and if you weren’t any good at either, Flo knew exactly who you were as well. Flo had the most wonderful New England accent, so distinctive that it was easy to develop a passable impression of it. And so, many of us (all right, mostly me) delighted in doing impressions of Flo saying the most foul-mouthed and inappropriate things. But the real joke here wasn’t simply that Flo was too much of a well-bred lady to ever say such things. It was more that, especially given her days among the counterculture, it was entirely likely that she was capable of saying all of those things and more. Flo had little tolerance for fools of any kind, and there was steel at the center of that tiny frame. As she began to declutter her life, she became an inveterate gift-giver. She had squirreled away the memorabilia of decades, and wanted to pass some of it along before “it all goes in the garbage when I die.” She gave me a mountain of things over the years. I own two copies of Big Apple Comix, the underground that Flo published, one that I bought and another that she gave to me. I have a Stan Lee Slurpee cup on my desk right this moment that came from her, and she also passed me a customized promotional pen from the 1960s in which a built-in window displayed the names of the assorted Marvel titles as you clicked it. And an enormous pile of old convention programs, from shows dating back to the early 1970s. (When Steven Moffat and his family visited the Marvel offices some years ago, I sent his son home with a stack of goodies all held in a convention bag from 1975 that Flo had gifted me—the

Big Apple Of My Eye Underground cartoonist (and mainstream colorist) Michele Brand drew the framing art for Denny O’Neil’s “Foreword” on the inside front cover of Flo’s 1975 Big Apple Comix. Michele’s and Denny’s photos were seen on pp. 16 & 11, respectively. [Text © Denny O’Neil; art © Estate of Michele Brand.]

only thing I had on hand large enough to hold it all.) Learning that my son had developed an interest in World War II, she gave me stacks of books on the conflict to pass along to him. And I was not alone in receiving this bounty of the bizarre—everybody who was around Flo for any length of time got something—and there was still enough left over that it could be gifted out as party favors during Flo’s memorial at The Society of Illustrators, organized by Larry Hama and her longtime friend Linda Fite. Flo didn’t really like the spotlight, got tired of answering all of the same questions about the glory days of the Marvel Age of Comics early on. (“You know, it was just a job.”) This carried over to her personal life. She was a very private person. So for the most part, nobody at Marvel knew how ill she had become until it was all over. Which makes me sad, that she had to face the end largely on her own. She was so beloved that it was completely unnecessary. But that was Flo, never wanting to inconvenience people, never wanting to put anyone out. And completely self-sufficient. About a week after we had heard that she was gone, my old assistant Gregg Schigiel, who had been Flo’s neighbor, sent me over a clip of a message that Flo had left him on his answering machine. She mentioned that she was going to be going in to Marvel that coming week, and then said something nice about me. It was like one last little glimmer of sunshine as the evening grew dim.

Tributes, Si! Tears, No!

“Bright Eyes, Big Smile, Friendly Greeting” by Denny O’Neil Bright eyes, big smile, friendly greeting: Flo Steinberg in the reception area of Marvel Comics some 50 years ago. Flo was welcoming me to the first day of my job as Stan Lee’s editorial assistant, and she’s been a part of my life ever since.

Panel To Panel Fan Barry Pearl (see photo on p. 35) sent this pic of an all-star panel from the very first NYC comics convention he ever attended, circa 2005. (Left to right:) Editor Ralph Macchio, Flo, Stan Lee, Joe Sinnott, Gene Colan.

“I Will Miss Flo” by Barry Pearl A long time ago, in a childhood far far away, Flo Steinberg saved the day, perhaps the month, for me. I was having a long hospital stay and wrote a fan letter to Stan Lee. Soon in the hospital mail came a large package. It was filled with comics! These were comics Flo had wrapped and just sent me as a complete stranger, and just a random act of kindness. In there was also a note from Stan Lee wishing me well. If you read my book, you will see that it is dedicated to her and to Stan. These were the comics that started my collection, and I still have them today. Forty years later, Nick Caputo and Michael J. Vassallo took me to my first comic convention. There was a panel for the Marvel Age, with Stan, Gene Colan, Joe Sinnott, and many others on it. Flo was there, too. Flo would later tell me that at the end of the panel fans came up to speak to everyone but her. But I came up to her to thank her for what she did for a long time ago. She asked to look at the letter Stan sent me and told me, “Ah-hah!” She looked at the handwriting and said that she wrote it and Stan signed it. The special place I had for her in my heart grew. [A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: That letter was printed on p. 30 of this issue.]

Back then, on that brisk October morning, Flo was a business acquaintance, and she remained that as Stan began transforming Marvel from a small and negligible part of the New York publishing scene into today’s multi-media behemoth. Neither Flo nor I remained on Marvel’s payroll long, but we both retained a relationship with the company and with each other; and although she was neither artist nor writer, Flo remained a part of the comics community. She became close friends with the wonderful woman to whom I was married, Anne Heaney; when our son was born, Flo became Larry’s de facto godmother, a kind and concerned older presence who was always part of the kid’s life. Years passed and Flo moved to San Francisco, stayed a while, and then returned to a slightly evolved existence in lower Manhattan. I got married a second time, and soon Flo was close to wife Marifran, and I wondered if my true purpose on the Earth was to provide Flo with pals. (If that were true, well, cheers.) Just last week, I learned that Flo and Marifran called each other on birthdays. We moved to another town, Mari and I, and Flo established herself in a small midtown walkup near Marvel’s offices, where she did part-time proofreading and seemed content. We all lived our lives and survived and got old. Always, we were aware of Flo Steinberg. She was out there, sharing the planet with us, and we’d see her soon, at a party maybe, or at an unplanned encounter on the street. Or maybe we’d phone her, or she’d call us. But we would meet her again, count on it, and there would be smiles all around. We knew that, some day, Flo would die—we’d all die. The only question was when. No news there. For Flo, the when occurred a few weeks ago and the world became, suddenly, colder. We hoped that Flo’s final breath was a happy one.

We became nice friends and would meet in Manhattan and go out to dinner and lunch along with Nick and Mike. And we spoke on the phone. In fact, I was going to call her up to plan a day with her at Mike’s house. The reason I think she enjoyed hanging out with us is that we saw her as a lovely person and not just a comicbook person. She was done talking about comicbooks and wanted to talk about everything else, and we did. Flo may not have seen herself as a super-hero, but a long time ago, in a childhood far far away, she helped save me.

Collusion—Marvel Style! A collaboration of sorts between then-new comics writer Denny O’Neil and corresponding secretary Flo Steinberg. In this panel from the story “Romance—Italian Style!” in Modeling with Millie #46 (April 1966), Denny scribed the dialogue, and Flo wrote the fashion note. Plot by Roy Thomas; art by Stan Goldberg. See photo of “Denny-O” (as he signed most of his “Millie” stories) on p. 11. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Fabulous Flo Steinberg—Part 6

“Flo Steinberg’s Marvel-ous Mark On Comics Remembered” by Tom Brennan [This piece is reprinted by special permission of AM New York, in which it was published on August 1, 2017.] When I worked with her at Marvel Comics, Florence “Flo” Steinberg took the bus to work every day, from a modest apartment in East 20s to midtown Manhattan. I like to imagine she’d sit next to a little kid wearing an Iron Man backpack—that same kid unaware that this unassuming woman from the neighborhood was a key player in the creation of the Marvel Universe. When she passed away on July 23, Flo left behind one heck of a legacy for the comic book industry. Born and raised outside of Boston, she came to New York City after college in the 1960s and was one of the first full-time employees for Marvel Comics, serving as receptionist, fan liaison, and all-around girl Friday for Stan Lee as he built a universe of characters that dominate the pop culture landscape today.

Tom Brennan is a writer on politics and pop culture who has worked for the New York City Mayor’s Office, ShareBlue, and America Magazine. He was an editor for Marvel Comics from 20072014. Follow him on twitter @brennanator.

Die-hard Marvel fans in the Silver Age of Comics would come to know “Fabulous Flo” as the woman who answered fan mail and managed the burgeoning publisher’s fan club. Creators in that era knew her as the warm, welcoming figure who treated them like artistic royalty returning home when they’d visit the offices.

She left Marvel after five years but returned to comics in 1975, this time as publisher. Her independent magazine Big Apple Comix was a groundbreaking anthology that explored New York City and encouraged creators to tackle more adult themes—a perfect fit for 1970s New York. Flo returned to Marvel in the 1990s. I joined the company in 2007 as an assistant editor working on the “Avengers” books. Word got out that I had gotten lost navigating the halls, so Flo sought me out… and gave me a hand-drawn map of the office. I wish I still had it. Flo was a junior editor’s best friend, eager to celebrate our successes and ready to take us to task when we forgot to put that critical hyphen in “Spider-Man.” She was also quick to bond with us. One colleague was an aspiring novelist, so Flo brought her a well-worn copy of The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter. She found out I was a politics buff, so she’d tell me stories of her time working on Ted Kennedy’s first Senate bid and how, despite the Vietnam War, she did like Lyndon B. Johnson—she just wished he hadn’t held his dog by the ears. When her passing was announced last week during the final day of the San Diego Comic-Con, social media and blogs were full of similar remembrances from every side of the comic book industry—particularly the young women she encouraged to persist in an industry too often dominated by men.

Twelve O’Clock Hyphen Flo obviously wasn’t proofreading Marvel’s comics in late 1962. Otherwise, when she perused Amazing Spider-Man #1 (cover-dated March 1963), she’d have been all over scripter Stan Lee’s case for leaving the hyphen out of “Spider-Man” in this panel. Sure, we all know that, except in the masthead/logo, the hero’s name had been spelled “Spiderman” all the way through his origin in Amazing Fantasy #15—but wouldn’t you think Stan would’ve got it right the second time around? Actually, a couple of issues later, the web-spinner’s name even got printed once as “Superman”! Flo, where were you when Stan really needed you? Art by Steve Ditko. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

To many, she’ll always be “Fabulous Flo.” To those who worked with her, “Fabulous” was an understatement. Rest in peace, Ms. Steinberg—and sorry for all the typos.

“She Had A Way…” by Jim Warren Although I shouldn’t be shocked or upset about death—it still hits me hard when it happens to those I had a love for, and Flo was one of those. She was so sweet, so nice, so kind and affectionate—I never met anyone who didn’t like her. I never found an ounce of meanness in her. Only goodness. How many people can you say this about? There were times when I was raging with hostility about things that were going wrong at our company—and all I had to do to calm down was to slink into Flo’s office, close the door, and just be with her. Her smile was enough to shut me up. And bring me down to Earth. And make things better. And I wasn’t the only one. She did it with everyone in our office who needed it. God bless her!

James Warren Founder of Warren Publishing, whose black-&-white magazines Famous Monsters of Filmland, Help!, Creepy, Eerie, Vampirella, et al., had a profound influence on 1960s-70s popular culture. Just ask George Lucas and Stephen Spielberg about the first one listed! Thanks to Mike Zeck & Pedro Angosto.

Tributes, Si! Tears, No!

(If God gets angry, I hope He has the good sense to slink into her office….) She had a way about her of making the world a lot warmer and a lot better, just because she was in it.

Florence Rae Steinberg by Linda Fite The first time I “met” Flo was when I got a letter from her on behalf of Stan Lee, to whom I had written about the possibility of getting a job at Marvel after college. She then called me, and we had a short, sweet chat during which she told me to contact Marvel after I moved to New York. I had a few “real” job interviews lined up, but I accepted Stan’s offer of what was initially a low-paying summer job assisting Flo with fan mail and whatever else needed doing in the office. Flo and I, though from different backgrounds, were immediately very simpatico. We were both smart… and smartasses (though Flo’s style was always far more subtle and sub rosa than mine). We both loved words and wordplay. We were both dutiful and hardworking. We both acted “nice” no matter how we might really feel about a person or situation. We got along so very well,

“Here She Is—At Last!” In the first half of the 1970s, Flo wrote the text (or “copy”) for many of the Captain Company ads in Warren’s magazines. Whether or not she scribed this precise one from Creepy #54 (July 1973) for Vampirella-related products is not known. Thanks to J. Ballmann. [© the respective copyright holders.]

Fite, Fite, Fite! (Left:) Linda Fite and pals at a Marvel softball game in Sheeps Meadow, Central Park, circa 1974. (L. to r.:) Michele Brand, Flo Steinberg, baby Alex Trimpe, and Linda. Note that Flo’s wearing a Shazam! T-shirt! Thanks to LF. (Above:) Linda’s page for Flo’s 1975 Big Apple Comix skewered its ripe target: insufferably gung-ho Californians visiting NYC. Linda wrote several stories for Marvel in the late 1960s and early ’70s; her interview re her scripting stint on The Cat will appear next issue. She and Larry Hama arranged the memorial for Flo that was held in September of 2017. [© Linda Fite.]

Fabulous Flo Steinberg—Part 6

and by the time Flo left Marvel, a year after I came aboard, we were close friends indeed. We saw each other all the time, hung out in each other’s apartments and other people’s places (including yours, Roy!)—lots of socializing during that phase of our young lives. We went to movies together, out to dinner, to Central Park for Marvel softball games, or to hang out and people-watch. She was close with all my kids, giving Alex, Amelia, and Sarah birthday bucks and receiving thank-you notes in return, many of which (along with birthday cards to her from them) I found among the ephemera in Flo’s apartment after her passing. She visited Herb and me when we spent a year in England. She visited our family often over the following years when we lived up here in Kerhonkson. She used to say that her favorite thing was to sit on my screened porch, one of the cats in her lap, and just “look out on the greenery.” (And smoke those menthol cigs, too, of course.) Flo was one of my dearest, closest friends for fifty years. I treasured her wit, her wry humor, her nonjudgmental ways, her warmth and kindness and generosity, her tolerance of my benign neglect of our friendship, her loyalty, her fierce support. During the last couple of years before Flo died, she often said she was “ready” to go, that life was so blah, that she wasn’t in the least suicidal, but that “It’s enough, already!” So when she did die, I felt that she had decided to go ASAP, rather than just dawdle and dwindle. When my son Alex woke me up on the morning of July 23 and told me Flo had died, my first word was: “Wonderful!” Well done, Florence Rae!

My Friend Flo by Larry Hama I feel very lucky to have known Flo Steinberg, and I am glad that she considered me a friend. She was a uniquely positive and optimistic individual, not because she was mindlessly happy like a mutant Pollyana, but because she tried to see the good side of everybody and everything. She didn’t hold on to hurt and grievances, and I believe there were people who hurt her grievously. Instead, she picked herself up, and kept on going, and with a smile to boot. Flo would never allow bitterness to weigh her down. She wasn’t carrying around a load of grudges like many people do, and she didn’t think the world was against her, or that she was dealt a bad hand in life.

Larry Hama has been a comics artist since the 1970s and helped develop Marvel’s popular G.I. Joe comic in the ’80s. Some of his art for Flo’s 1975 Big Apple Comix was seen on p. 19.

I tried to make it a point to take her out to lunch at least once a month. It never felt like an obligation, because I always came away feeling cheered up. It was like touching a font of good vibes. Sometimes we would go see movies together—always the first show on a weekday afternoon when nobody else was in the theater. We exchanged books and talked about the characters as if they were real people. At first I suspected that she really didn’t like many of the books I passed on to her, and that she was simply being nice, but later on I realized that if she didn’t like something, she would damn well tell you (if she considered you a friend). When Linda Fite, her son Alex, and I were clearing out Flo’s apartment, we discovered a notebook full of quotations that Flo had copied out of

Madame Toy Larry Hama points out that Flo was the model for the character Madame Toy in Wally Wood’s Cannon comics feature of the early ’70s, which appeared for more than two years in Overseas Weekly, a magazine distributed exclusively to U.S. military bases around the world. [TM & © Estate of Wally Wood.]

books, and many were books that I had given her. I felt a ghostly, but benevolent hand reach out and touch me. In 2001, when she was undergoing chemo and radiation for lymphoma, we went to see Black Hawk Down at the Kips Bay Cinema in her nabe. After the movie, she turned to me and said, “You know, you’re the only one who doesn’t treat me like I’m dying.” I told her that’s because I refuse to believe that you can’t beat this. This past spring, she had a brain aneurism and brain surgery. When I went to see her at the hospital, she showed me the scar, and said “Look, Frankenstein,” and laughed. And I had to laugh, too. A few months later, after she was released from the hospital and back home, I called her to make a lunch date, and she sounded incoherent, and her speech was slurred. I went over, and she was barely able to get out of bed and in a lot of pain. I bundled her into a cab and got her over to Beth Israel, where they deposited her in the ER because they had no free beds in the wards. They finally admitted her and ran all their tests, and told us that she had metastatic lung cancer and it had spread everywhere. Before she was moved to hospice, I was sitting with her in her room at Beth Israel. She was pretty doped up on morphine, so the conversation was minimal—and then, after a long silence, she said, “I’m toast,” and patted my hand and smiled, like I was the one who needed comforting. And I was.

“Sweet And Funny And Sunshine” Marv Wolfman The one time I met Flo when she was at Marvel was when I was a fan and tried to visit the office. She came out to explain why Marvel didn’t give tours, but she could not have been nicer. I got to know Flo better when I was an editor at Warren magazines and she was working there, I believe for his mail-order business. She was sweet and funny and sunshine.

Marv Wolfman Comics writer and editor, especially noted for his work on Marvel’s Tomb of Dracula and DC’s New Teen Titans and Crisis on Infinite Earths

Tributes, Si! Tears, No!

“Always A Delight” by Stan Lee Flo Steinberg was one of the most caring people I ever knew. She put so much care into everything she did. She was always a delight to work with. [NOTE: The above is an e-mail sent to Roy Thomas by Stan Lee in February 2018, while he was recuperating from a bout of pneumonia.]

“A Great Co-Worker” by John Romita

John & Virginia Romita in 2001. John, who had worked for Timely Comics during the late Golden Age, returned to Marvel in July of 1965 and became, with his work on Amazing Spider-Man, one of the company’s most important artists ever—as well as its longtime art director.

Virginia and I are sad to hear she’s gone. She was a champion proofreader, a great co-worker who always had a smile on her face. We’re a dwindling few these days.

“A Big Sister To All Of Us” by Ralph Reese Flo was a big sister to all of us who came up in the late ’60s and early ’70s, especially us underground types. I don’t know how many of us crashed on her couch when first coming to New York or visiting for conventions, but it was a lot. I don’t know anyone who didn’t love her; she was always sweet and kind, and took an interest in all of us up-and-comers. And she was good company. She had a sly sense of humor and was no dummy. Life took us in different directions, but I will always remember her fondly.

Ralph Reese (seen above in a recent photo) is an artist who began working in comics in the 1970s, specializing in horror stories. At right is a vintage caricature he drew of Flo Steinberg, which was sent to us by Linda Fite. Reese’s art for Big Apple Comix can be seen on pp. 19-20 of this issue. [Art © 2018 Ralph Reese.]

“Flo Steinberg Answered” by Gene Reed Back in my younger days (12 or so), I thought I would call Marvel Comics and let them know how much I enjoyed what they were doing. I called information to get the number and dialed it. Flo Steinberg answered. She was very patient and listened to whatever ramblings I said at the time. She was patient the other times I called as well. Each time she was pleasant and reminded me that Marvel was preparing some things for the fans. I later learned that she was referring to the Merry Marvel Marching Society. I even had the gall to ask her for Stan Lee’s phone number, but she deflected that request by saying that Stan was very busy and she would pass along any comments I had. I actually did call Stan at home once, but that’s another story.

Gene Reed is a comics collector whose above photo “was used in the liner notes of a CD I produced back in 2002. I was 50 at the time. I sold 2000 CDs for $12 each by singing at karaoke venues.” Sounds like virtually a career move, Gene!

Fabulous Flo Steinberg—Part 6

“The Archetypal Earth Mother” by Maddy Cohen (aka Mimi Gold) Stan hired me on the spot at the NY Comicon at the Statler Hilton in 1969 because his “secretary” had gone and he was “desperate” for help. Of course, I accepted; I had graduated from NYU Film School a few weeks earlier, hadn’t found a job yet, and hey, it was Stan offering. What I didn’t know was that this wasn’t a secretarial position (thank God!), it was more of a Jack, or should I say Jill, of all trades gig. There were no guidelines, no job description. The position was essentially a state of flux created by Fabulous Flo. In five years she had become a legend. And it was “go with the flow,” no pun intended, because every day at the Bullpen was a roller coaster ride. I would hear about Flo from everyone I met, and it wasn’t until I met her that I understood. The ’60s were coming to a close. Flo was the archetypical earth mother in a time of Flower Children, always seemingly at peace. Her persona of nurturing calm was charismatic, drawing everyone to her with her soft Bostonian dialect, ever-present mysterious smile, and sparkling eyes.

Maddy Cohen may not be a name familiar to comics readers; but as “Mimi Gold” she was a staff assistant, colorist, and occasional writer in the late ’60s and early ’70s. Seen at right is the splash page from Iron Man #29 (Sept. 1970), by scripter “M. Gold” and artists Don Heck & Chic Stone, courtesy of Barry Pearl. Photo courtesy of Maddy; an interview with her will appear in as early as issue of Alter Ego as we can squeeze it into! [Page TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Although Flo was everyone’s friend, I remember she was a good friend to a good friend of mine, the late John Verpoorten, assistant production manager at Marvel. Flo’s life, from her Ivy League roots to her seminal role in the original Bullpen to her boundary-breaking Big Apple Comix, confirms how smart and bold she truly was. We’ll miss you, Flo. One of a kind.

“What A Sweetheart!” by Ralph Macchio I was lucky enough to interact with Flo a good deal when she was up at Marvel in recent years and we had some good talks about her time as Stan’s right hand lady. She was terrific and will be missed. I have a note from her that goes back to March of 1967, fifty years ago! I was about fifteen years old and I’d sent a nicely typed “Sub-Mariner” story to Marvel. It was sent back with a wonderful

Ralph Macchio went on staff at Marvel in the latter 1970s. This photo of him hard at work was taken by fellow staffer Eliot R. Brown some years back. Seen at left, courtesy of fellow editor Mark Basso, is Flo’s response to a sample script sent to Marvel by a 12-yearold Ralph. [Photo © Eliot R. Brown.]

Tributes, Si! Tears, No!

note from Flo printed on Marvel stationery with her hand-written signature. One small anecdote about her: When I was about twelve I remember actually calling up Marvel because I was disturbed by a “Tales of Asgard” story in which Thor’s hammer was unable to shatter some goblet. I thought Mjolnir could shatter anything, so I called up Marvel and got Flo on the phone. She patiently explained to me that the goblet was probably enchanted and in Asgard things are different then they are on Earth. She was so nice and patient with me, I never forgot it. What a sweetheart. I think it’s wonderful you’ll be devoting part of an issue to her. She deserves it.

“The True Keeper Of All The Secrets” by Michael Uslan Stan Lee’s “gal Friday,” Flo Steinberg, was so smart, so incredibly kind, so radiant, and she was the true keeper of the history and of all the secrets behind the comics. I first met her when I was 11, just after Fantastic Four #9 came out. My family lived just over an hour outside New York City. Through one of the early fanzines, I read there was a weekly tour of DC Comics… was it on Tuesday afternoons? I begged and pleaded with my mom to take me and my comicbook partner in crime, Bobby, to New York on a day we had off from school. Our mission was to go on the DC Comics tour, visit the real Baxter Building where the Fantastic Four made their headquarters in the comics, and maybe take a tour of Marvel Comics. The DC tour was beyond awesome… a comicbook fanboy’s dream! After that, we headed uptown from 575 Lexington Ave. in search of the Baxter Building. The strange thing was, not a single person we stopped knew where this building was, not even a policeman. Mom went to a phone booth (remember them?) and looked in a phone book (remember them?) but found no listing in the white pages. She then checked the Yellow Pages (remember them?). No luck. In desperation, she called Marvel Comics to ask them where the Baxter Building was and what time their tour started. The call was directed to Flo Steinberg. She had to explain that, unlike DC, Marvel had no tours for fans. And then

Michael Uslan spent several years as a comicbook writer before becoming a film producer and helping to bring the very first Batman film into being in 1989. This photo appears in his 2011 book The Boy Who Loved Batman: A Memoir. Seen at right is Alex Schomburg’s cover for All Winners Comics #18 (Summer 1946). No, it’s not the precise copy that Michael says Flo got Jack Kirby to sign. Of that one, Michael says: “Unfortunately for me and posterity… back when I was about to get married right after college and had no money, it was part of the grouping I sold in order to afford Nancy’s engagement ring, wedding ring, and our honeymoon. At least it went for a good cause.” I’m sure both Flo and Jack would approve, Michael! If you had hung onto it much longer, you’d have had to either insure it—or else lock it away in a vault like the one the Sub-Mariner’s manhandling on its cover! Thanks to the Grand Comics Database. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

The Baxter Building didn’t receive its official name until a couple of issues later, but it was already being featured as “The Fantastic Four’s secret headquarters” in Fantastic Four #3 (March 1962). Before long, though, the whole point about the Baxter Building was that neither it nor the FF’s HQ were secret. But that didn’t mean young Michael Uslan and his mother could find it later that year! Thanks to Bob Bailey. Script by Stan Lee; pencils by Jack Kirby; inks by Sol Brodsky. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

she broke the news that the Baxter Building was not based on a real building in the City. Bobby and I were totally distraught and my Mom conveyed our abject disappointment. But it was Fabulous Flo who took pity on a couple of awestruck 11-year-old fans and told my Mom to bring us up to 655 Madison Avenue. Flo came out to greet us and then took me by the hand to introduce me to Stan Lee. And she made sure Jack Kirby autographed my copy of All Winners #18. I will never forget her for that. But the day came when I was able to return the favor. A heaping handful of years ago, I was hangin’ with Stan at one of the classic parties during San Diego Comic Con. And who walked in but Flo Steinberg! I hustled over to say hi and when I got back, Stan said, “Mighty Mike, is that Flo Steinberg?” When I assured him it was, he remarked it had been far too many years since he last saw her, and asked me if I’d “re-introduce” them! And so, I did! Witnessing this reunion was one of my favorite comicbook history moments of all time!

Fabulous Flo Steinberg—Part 6

My Flo Steinberg Story by Walt Simonson Flo Steinberg is one of the principal reasons why I’m in comics today. At the end of summer right before the beginning of my sophomore year at Amherst College in the fall of 1965 (please don’t do the math; I feel old enough already), I discovered Marvel Comics. I found two issues of Journey into Mystery, #120 & 121, on the comic rack of a local drugstore. I was already a fan of Norse mythology and was delighted to discover new adventures of Thor in a comicbook. I didn’t care that Thor didn’t have red hair or iron gauntlets or goats! I just loved it. It was my introduction to the work of Lee and Kirby as well. An incredibly exciting couple of comics that ended on a cliffhanger. As Thor stops fighting The Absorbing Man for a moment to rescue a small child who has wandered into the field of battle, The Absorbing Man (of course) clocks Thor from behind with his ball and chain and Thor goes down with Crusher Creel crowing about his victory.

Walt Simonson The longtime comics artist and writer is especially noted for an inspired run on Thor— but in the fall of 1965, he was just an intrigued college student who couldn’t wait for Journey into Mystery #122 to hit the stands so he could find out whether The Absorbing Man had really killed the god of thunder—yet somehow he managed to miss it! Enter Fabulous Flo Steinberg! Thanks to Walt and Hero Initiative (on whose disbursement board Walt sits) for the photo and cover scan. [Cover TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

I didn’t really know anything about comics or continued stories back then. I read a lot of comics as a kid and some in high school, but Marvel Comics were a new experience. I was very green. So when Thor got clocked and was lying on the pavement, apparently down for the count with The Absorbing Man lording it over his prone form, I completely freaked out! Now I would know better, but back then, I was desperate to read the next issue. And of course, I went back to college a week later, before the next issue had come out. I scoured the town of Amherst for comics and finally found a little shop, Augie’s Tobacco Store on N. Pleasant Street, that had a double spinner rack and a lot of magazines. I haunted it as best I could just short of actually skipping classes, but as time went by, I finally had to admit to myself that I had missed the next issue. I was beside myself! This was long before comic shops and comic cons and I knew of no way to retrieve that lost issue.

So I wrote a letter to Marvel Comics at the address in the indicia, 625 Madison Avenue, NYC. Fortunately, no copy of that letter survives and I’m grateful, as I’m sure it would only embarrass me. No one likes to see an almost grown man cry. I’m sure the letter had a certain frantic quality. Basically, I was asking if there was any way I could purchase a copy of Journey into Mystery #122 so I could once again sleep peacefully at night. Weeks went by.

Up Close & Personal The note that Flo wrote (and signed only as “Stan & the Gang” to a young Walter Simonson and tucked into the back cover of the copy she sent him of Journey into Mystery #122. Thanks to WS. [Pages © the respective copyright holders.]

Tributes, Si! Tears, No!

Honestly, I didn’t have much hope to begin with, and eventually, I just figured the letter had disappeared into the black hole of New York City and that was that. I would never know what happened to Thor. Then one day, maybe six weeks after I had sent my letter, a manila envelope arrived in the mail, addressed to me. I opened it and inside was a shiny new copy of Journey into Mystery #122. I was ecstatic! And then I found a small blue card that accompanied the comic book. It was pre-printed with standard boilerplate, thanking me for my letter. But there was an additional hand-written note on it. Hi Walter-Great to hear from you! Couldn’t let you down—hope you enjoy it! Stan & the Gang To say I went nuts is probably understating the case. I couldn’t have been more thrilled. Naturally, the resolution to the cliffhanger was simple. Thor got back up and continued the fight. But that didn’t matter. I was a confirmed and committed Marvel fanatic from that moment on. Not being a comic collector in the modern sense of the word, I stapled the blue card into the back of my comic so I could save both. I went on to read every comic Marvel published for the next several years, got interested in the mechanics of creating stories, improved my drawing, and eventually entered the industry first as an artist, and then as a writer. That note was one of the really important catalysts for me in that process. Many years later, Flo—who was not working at Marvel when I first entered comics professionally—returned to work at Marvel

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Flo On BBC Four In 2007 Flo appeared in a British documentary titled In Search of Steve Ditko. That government-subsidized channel had begun operations five years earlier. Thanks to Rob Smentek.

again. And I got to know her. So one day, I grabbed my Journey into Mystery #122 off the shelf and took it into the office. I found Flo and showed it to her. She didn’t remember the note, but she recognized her handwriting. Flo had written the note and sent me the comicbook. And once again, I was delighted beyond words. I couldn’t thank her enough, and she was her usual self-deprecating sunny self. But that comicbook and that note helped open the door to the path that I’ve been traveling ever since. I will always be grateful to her. Love you, Flo. Thanks for everything. Godspeed.

A Few Minutes With ROBIN GREEN For This Ambitious & Talented Lady, Marvel Comics Was Barely The Beginning! Interview Conducted by Richard J. Arndt

NTERVIEWER’S INTRODUCTION: Robin Green succeeded Flo Steinberg as Stan Lee’s “Girl Friday” and editorial assistant for several months in 1968. She later became a journalist, working for Rolling Stone and other publications. From that field, she segued to being a television writer, earning one Emmy for her work on Northern Exposure and two more for her scripts for The Sopranos. She’s also won three Golden Globes and two Peabody Awards. In addition to those two series, she’s also written scripts for A Year in the Life, Almost Grown, and the Showtime movie Critical Choices. She was a showrunner for Southend and created, with her husband Mitchell Burgess, the television show Blue Bloods. Her new book The Only Girl: My Life and Times on the Masthead of Rolling Stone Magazine is due to be published on August 21 by Little, Brown & Co. This interview was conducted by phone on February 8, 2017.

Ravishin’ Robin Green That’s how Stan referred to his first post-Fabulous-Flo “corresponding secretary,” in the only Marvel Comics reference to her that we’ve found to date: namely, on the Bullpen Bulletins page in the month that such mags as Fantastic Four #84 (March 1969) went on sale, with its Kirby/Sinnott cover. But, oddly, that brief item served mostly to proclaim that Robin’s successor would be Jean Thomas, Roy’s bride of only a few months! Recent Robin photo courtesy of RS. Robin, for her part, moved on to Rolling Stone magazine, and eventually to writing scripts for such top TV fare as The Sopranos. Seen below is a scene from the 3rd season’s memorable Green-co-scripted episode “Employee of the Month,” in which Tony Soprano (James Gandolfini) comforts Dr. Jennifer Melfi (Lorraine Bracco)—as first aired by HBO on March 18, 2001. [Cover TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.; Sopranos pic TM & © HBO or successors in interest.]

RICHARD ARNDT: Let’s begin with your early history, before you worked for Stan. ROBIN GREEN: Okay. I was the first generation of my family to go to college. I studied with my grandparents. I got a scholarship to Pembrooke University in 1963. My parents thought I should go to an Ivy League school if I was going to college. They felt that would be good for me in the long run and it was. [chuckles] So I graduated with a degree in American Literature, but I was determined that I was going to be a writer. There was a lot of other stuff, though, first. I went to Martha’s Vineyard and was a waitress. I went to Boston and worked briefly, four weeks, for Houghton Mifflin. Then I moved to New York in the winter of 1968 and went to an employment agency. At that point, I wanted to be in the editorial system in publishing. They sent me on three interviews for either secretarial or editorial assistant positions. It was just labeled

a secretarial job back then, but it’s more correctly called an editorial assistant today. Two of the interviews were with advertising agencies and the third was at Marvel Comics. One of the ad agencies didn’t want me, and the other might have, but when I went to Marvel Comics the work there was just closer to what I really wanted to do. I guess mostly in terms of atmosphere. I wasn’t a comics fan. I think I was drawn to the friendliness and the liveliness of the place. It just seemed brighter in atmosphere from the other two and so I took the job. I don’t think I was thrilled, because it really wasn’t what I was aiming for. I wanted to be at a publishing house or a magazine. Something like that. But it turned out to be a great decision in the long run, because it ended up getting me my job with Rolling Stone. RA: You also mentioned that it was closer to where you were living at the time, and that that was a factor as well.

A Few Minutes With Robin Green

GREEN: I lived in Greenwich Village and Marvel was in mid-town Manhattan, so I took the subway to work. They didn’t have pick-up-after-your-dog laws in those days, so you’d have to just step nicely along the sidewalk. [laughs] So I went to work uptown. It was kind of lonely at first, because I was new to New York, but I got into a kind of routine. Gradually I became friends with some of the people in the office, such as Herb Trimpe and Linda Fite. The office was fun. RA: If you were the editorial assistant, what was Linda Fite doing there at the time? GREEN: Linda was working up front. She was the receptionist. She was in the front of the office and was greeting people. We had the occasional visitor, but I don’t remember anyone getting a tour at that time. That might just be my memory, though. Linda would probably know better about that than I. I took over from Flo Steinberg, all of her old duties. I read a lot of the fan mail. I sent out a lot of those—what were they called?— oh, No-Prizes! It was just an empty envelope! I guess you got a membership card as well, maybe? [laughs] Stan loved that! He just loved the idea that there were no prizes for stumping the Marvel writers. [laughs] I don’t know whose idea that was, but it was certainly a cost-effective way of rewarding somebody. I sat at the desk on one side of the office, and there was a small hallway separating myself from Stan’s office. I could see him, in case he wanted me to call somebody or contact him when I was on the phone. There was no window, just an open door. My desk was placed so I could see through the door. Stan always had an open door. I don’t think he ever shut that door. We didn’t shut our doors, either. The offices were just down that small corridor, about five feet or so from the bullpen. On one side was Stan’s door and on the other side was my office. It really was an office. It wasn’t a cubicle, like in the bullpen. Roy Thomas’ office was right behind me. He was back there at a window. He had a window table. I seem to recall a drawing board. Would that have been possible? He wasn’t an artist. You might ask him about that. I just don’t remember him at a desk. RA: Maybe they were being cheap and wouldn’t give him a desk. GREEN: [loud laughter] Maybe! You’re going to have to ask him

The [Human?] Torch Is Passed… As per J. Ballman, who provided it, the address side of this postcard is dated in “April 1968,” a month after Flo [Steinberg] resigned in March. “This card (the handwriting is obviously different; no plus sign is used in the signature) was written by Robin Green, who carried on the correspondence traditions Flo and Stan established…”

Sidebar by Roy Thomas

remember two things in particular about Rockin’ Robin Green from her days at Marvel— when, admittedly, I was pretty much engrossed in my associate editor job.

Roy Thomas From the 1969 Fantastic Four Annual

First, I recall Robin telling me, while she worked there, that she’d brought with her to Manhattan a letter of introduction to someone of import at a daytime-TV soap opera. She told me that that person had asked her to write a sample script (or maybe just sample pages) for the series; but, because of quickly landing a 9-to-5 job, that work took her longer to finish than she’d have liked. When she took the material in to her contact, he/she admonished Robin that TV soaps were a 5-days-a-week proposition, and that she should have got the samples back to her more quickly. Not too fair, perhaps—but Robin has the last laugh, since now she can look at those Emmys, Golden Globes, and Peabody Awards on her shelf, right? Also: One of her tasks at Marvel was to check over the vouchers submitted by freelancers and staff (since staffers like myself generally did our writing or drawing as “freelance,” The Young And The Restless outside the office). was one of a number of TV daytime soap One morning I was operas being broadcast five times a week from working away when New York City in 1968-69, as per this publicity Robin, who’d been shot from that era. It wasn’t necessarily the series at which Robin Green had a contact, going over some though. [TM & © CBS.] vouchers of mine, suddenly announced to me: “You know, I’ve been adding these things up—and you’re kind of a catch!” I don’t recall quite what my reaction to her quip was… but, however it was intended, I’ve remembered it with amusement for the past five decades. (Coincidentally, this wasn’t long before I eloped with my first wife Jean.) As for Robin’s description on the preceding page of my 1968-69 work station: After I graduated from my original corrugated-metal table near the door of the small production office—and let’s not forget that Magazine Management moved at least once between 1965 and the end of the decade, so we might even be talking about two different rooms—I did indeed have a drawing board, at a 45° angle, which faced the streetside wall and served for proofreading and the like. (I’d gotten that idea from Stan, though the one in his office was raised, so that he was always standing when he was at it.) When I turned from the drawing board toward the office doorway, to my right of which sat Robin, I’m pretty sure I also had a desk for more mundane tasks. Though she recalls my area as an “office,” it was really just the un-walled-off corner of the room we both shared with production manager Sol Brodsky; it wasn’t even a real cubicle. I never had a separate office until I became editor-in-chief in 1972. Curiously, Robin seems to have largely forgotten Sol—even though much of the work she did, assuming she performed basically the same tasks Flo had, involved phoning printers and engravers, etc., on Sol’s behalf. But then, it was fifty years ago, people!

Marvel Comics Was Barely The Beginning

about that. I’d love to know. On my desk I’d have the mail. I’d also have all of the current covers. I guess it was part of my job to change them if they needed that before publication. Things like the date or something like that. I always had the stack of covers. There seemed to be a lot of titles, over twenty at least. Stan was the boss of everybody. RA: Did you ever meet Martin Goodman? GREEN: No, was he the actual boss of everybody? RA: Well, he owned Marvel Comics, although at the time we’re discussing he may already have sold it to Cadence but was still running the company behind the scenes. GREEN: Well, you know what—I wasn’t even aware that Stan had a boss. Stan was the boss of the office, for sure. He was the editor of Marvel Comics, the guy behind everything. Everything went through him. I remember I got the nickname “Legs” when I was working there. Someone in the bullpen gave it to me. I wore these short mini-skirts. They weren’t that short, but they were short! [chuckles] I don’t really remember who gave the name to me, but I recall that whoever did drew a little caricature of me and labeled it “Legs.” RA: Might that have been Stu Schwartzberg, who worked there at the time? GREEN: I honestly don’t remember. It was a line drawing, very angular. It wasn’t really much of a drawing, more of a doodle. I’ve kept it all these years. It’s in my storage on the mainland. [NOTE: Robin was in the Caribbean when we spoke.] It meant something to me. When someone draws a picture of you, that’s a good deal. Even now I wear short skirts and tights. I don’t look bad for an old lady. [laughs] RA: I’d like to name off some of the people who worked at Marvel at the time and, if you remember them, just tell an anecdote or memory that you might have of them. GREEN: Oh, please say Herb Trimpe first! RA: [laughs] Okay, Herb Trimpe first. GREEN: Herb I remember better because he was closer to my age. Herb had a little apartment in the city, a very little apartment, and I remember that I went there one day. On the walls he had either toy trains or little airplanes…

“Legs” was, as she says, the nickname by which Robin was admiringly known by some of the office guys. The cartoon above was drawn by Stu Schwartzberg, who operated Marvel’s Photostat machine but also contributed amazingly funny artwork and script to Spoof and Crazy Magazine. At right is a photo Robin sent us from that era, wearing “the same short skirt.” Both courtesy of Robin Green. [Cartoon © 2018 Stu Schwartzberg.]

RA: Might it have been World War I biplanes? I know he had a collection of them. GREEN: Yeah, I would have Stu Schwartzberg considered them toys at the time, but now I realize he From the 1969 Fantastic Four Annual was likely a collector of these model planes. They might not have been all that tiny. I just thought that it was a new experience for me to be in someone’s apartment who had such a collection. Nowadays, you see that sort of thing all the time, but back then, it was an unusual experience. I’d never seen anything like that before. RA: You know, the first character that he actually created for Marvel was a costumed World War I pilot called The Phantom Eagle. GREEN: Well, there you go. He was kind of a tortured person in a way, although maybe I’m just imagining that. It was a long time ago. He had these large, almost black, eyes. He [later] wrote something in The New York Times about education, I remember that. We have a mutual friend in Peaksville, who let me know when he

A Few Minutes With Robin Green

died. That was very sad. I’d heard that he married Linda Fite and that later they’d gotten divorced. I was sorry for him to have to go through a divorce. That’s always hard on a person. RA: Actually, Linda was his second wife. You know, in later years, he married a third time and became a minister. He was among the ministers for the 9/11 survivors and the clean-up crew for eight months or more. GREEN: Wow, I didn’t know that. That’s really touching and great. He was a lovely person. So was Linda. She was a lovely girl—a Southern belle of sorts. She was delightful and was quite lively, very pretty. They were the youngest and most with-it people when I was there, I think.

Happy Herb Trimpe from the 1969 FF Annual— and his “Phantom Eagle” splash page for Marvel Super-Heroes #16 (Sept. 1968), done some time before Herb purchased a biplane of his own. Script by Gary Friedrich. Thanks to Barry Pearl & Nick Caputo. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Marie Severin was the only woman artist, or cartoon creator—whatever you want to call it—at the time, at least at Marvel. I was never quite sure what she did, actually. I feel a kinship of sorts with her because, later, I was the only woman on staff at Rolling Stone. I was drawn, after the fact, to Marie in that way. I’d also, in college, been the only girl on the college literary magazine staff. I don’t think she was married and, to be honest, that kind of worried me. [laughs] Still, I do remember being drawn to her.

Roy I remember as being very serious at the time. Jim Steranko came in once in a while. Stan would jump off chairs or desktops when he was describing scenes, particularly action scenes, that he wanted to see

Merry Marie Severin (again from the 1969 FF Annual). Actually, in the latter 1960s, Marie moved from her job as a production person and colorist to penciling various series such as “Dr. Strange,” The Incredible Hulk, Sub-Mariner, and Not Brand Echh. One true Severin tour de force was the entirety of Tales to Astonish #100 (Feb. 1968), wherein the Hulk and Prince Namor battled it out only two issues before each got his own solo mag; inks by Dan Adkins. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

in a comic. He did that a lot! [laughs] He was very involved in his stories. He was also very gentle as a boss. He never yelled at me or criticized me. He was very easygoing and a very sweet man. Perhaps to other people, who needed more from him, he was different. I wouldn’t know, but my personal experience was that he was very kind. I don’t mean to say he was particularly chivalrous. I never got the impression that he treated me any differently than he treated anyone else, woman or man, in the office. In a lot of ways, he was a big kid and that showed. Stan’s wife and daughter would come in from time to time. The daughter was grown up, younger than me but probably in college. They were both very attractive. They’d be shopping in town and drop in. I don’t believe or really know if they were into comicbooks at all. I remember having to do some errands or something for them from time to time, and I was rather offended by that. RA: Did you meet John Romita? GREEN: Yes, and he was a friendly guy. An older and very handsome guy. When I say older, he was probably in his thirties. He was there a lot. You know, all of the people in the bullpen were really sweet, but I was young and just didn’t really associate too much with the older people in the bullpen. John wasn’t a young man to me—he was a grown man. I hung out with Herb and Linda a little bit, but my personal life at the time was elsewhere.

Marvel Comics Was Barely The Beginning

I might not remember because I don’t believe I was there all that long. Six to nine months from 1968 to 1969. Maybe just 1968. [A/E EDITOR’S NOTE: Marvel announced Flo Steinberg’s leaving in their “Bullpen Bulletins” page that came out circa May or June of 1968, which likely means she’d quit Marvel two or three months earlier. That would indicate that Robin worked at Marvel from spring of 1968 through summer or so of that year, as she clarified in a 2018 e-mail quoted in a caption on p. 65.] I was a good worker, always came in on time. I was a clock-watcher, of course. [laughs] But I don’t think Stan had any reason to complain about me. I was over-qualified for the position. I really was a good worker, until I left the company. I know I was gone by the autumn, because my boyfriend at the time, David Leach, had to go back to school and I remember that.

Jazzy Johnny Romita

Actually, he was just pretending to go back to school because he’d gotten in some trouble with the law in New York. He got off but it cost him the money that was his tuition for graduate school. He’d gotten the money from his father for graduate school, but he’d paid the lawyer with that.

(Okay, so you guessed where we got this pic from!) Around the time Robin Green came to work for Marvel, this issue of Amazing Spider-Man (#70, March 1969) would’ve been going on sale, with its all-Romita cover. Next to Jack Kirby, Romita was at that time the most important artist at Marvel—and he only drew one comicbook a month! Well, besides all the corrections and special assignments Stan had for him, that is! [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Actually, I’d gone earlier to Montreal for a weekend trip. The person at the airline desk wouldn’t take my boyfriend’s check for my return ticket and I didn’t have any money or credit cards. So he said, “Come with me to Chicago,” where he was going to pretend to be going to graduate school. I called Stan and told him I’d gotten hung up. You know, the people in that office—you know the word nerd? Well, these guys were nerds before the word was around to describe them. They’d be the first people to tell you this. Anybody who was trying to be a hipster hung out at Max’s Kansas City and none of them did that. Neither did I, but I was hipper than them. RA: So you knew all the lingo? GREEN: Right, and they didn’t. I was really wanting to be part of this counter-culture of the time. A counter-culture that was just blossoming.

I was a reader of the Rolling Stone magazine, which certainly spoke to me more than comics, or anything in New York did, really. Anyway, I told Stan that I was hung up in Montreal, and then that I wasn’t coming back. [laughs] I never went back to Marvel! You were supposed to give two weeks’ notice, but I never went back to New York from that Montreal weekend. Stan just said okay. He was really sweet about it. I guess he was disappointed in me, but he didn’t make me feel bad. He was just really sweet about it. I’m sure I inconvenienced everyone, but he just said “Okay” and let me go. RA: Since Alter Ego will be reprinting your Rolling Stone article on Marvel Comics along with this interview, I guess we should discuss how you came to work for Rolling Stone and how that led to the article dealing with the Marvel bullpen.

“…When You Get Your Picture On The Cover Of The Rolling Stone…” The above song-lyric wouldn’t be recorded till 1972 (by Dr. Hook & the Medicine Show), but by 1969 it was definitely already a consummation devoutly to be wished for anybody in the pop music business or any other aspect of popular culture. Robin Green went to work for the rock magazine in that year, represented above by the Aug. 23 cover with its cover feature on The Grateful Dead’s Jerry Garcia. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders.]

GREEN: Okay. I went to Chicago in 1969 with my boyfriend, and then the following June, we went out to California. It was an adventure trip and it took us about five weeks to get to California from Chicago. We landed in Berkeley. I wasn’t doing much with my life at the time, just waitressing, making jewelry [laughs], and other odds and ends. A friend of mine from college suggested that I visit an old boss of hers that had just become the publisher of the book division, Straight Arrow Books, of Rolling Stone. I decided I would try for an editorial position there but, really, I would have done anything at the time to work at Rolling Stone. I wasn’t going to get dressed up. In New York, you would go in for an interview in a pencil skirt, stockings, and the like. You needed to look the part. But in California I just went over in my little blue jean mini-skirt. David and I were traveling light and I really had no clothes besides the very basic. I also borrowed a

A Few Minutes With Robin Green

jean jacket from my friend that had an emblem patch of people fornicating on the back of the jacket. Just a silly thing. [laughs] It wasn’t all that bold but you could tell what it was. I also took my dog, my 70-pound black dog, along on this interview. I just thought, “F*** it! This is me. If they don’t like it, that’s their problem.” So I go over there and Alan Rinzler, the publisher of Straight Arrow Books—the book division of Rolling Stone—had his dog in the office as well. Entering that office was like coming home. The atmosphere and everything was really good. Very artistic. The office was in an old warehouse with brick walls and lots of oak furniture. Alan was this incredibly hip-looking Harvard guy who was friendly and energetic.

Alan Rinzler (on left) with “gonzo journalist” Hunter S. Thompson, 1973. Rinzler is best known for having been the consulting editor on Hunter’s outrageous books. [© the respective copyright holders.]

I told him I would do anything to work there. I could be a receptionist, really any job, because I just wanted a job in a place that I fell in love with right from the start. I just wanted to be there. I had decided what I wanted to do with myself, instead of just taking whatever comes along. Alan told me he’d just hired a receptionist, but that my friend had told him that I wrote short stories, and he asked me why I didn’t try to write for the magazine. That actually hadn’t occurred to me. In fact, that was actually the furthest thing from my mind when I went over there. He told me he would set up a meeting with Jann Wenner for me. Jann had started Rolling Stone. He was a college dropout from Berkeley in 1967. He was my age, but he was like God to me because he’d started Rolling Stone, for God’s sake. It was so exciting! Alan arranged the interview with Jann. I found this box, like from Bloomingdale’s or something and I started putting things inside that were from my life—my college literary magazine that I edited, some of my short stories, and a couple of Marvel comics, along with a note that I’d worked there. There were also some cookies for him to eat while he went through the box. I go to the office, again wearing the jacket with the patch and my denim mini-skirt. [laughs] Jann had my box open on his desk, which was just a round oak table. He never referred to the box at all. [laughs] He was very impressed that I’d gone to an Ivy League school because he was a big social climber. The whole interview lasted only about three minutes. He asked me about Marvel and what it was like. I replied sort of sarcastically, which I did a lot at the time, trying to be cool, I guess. I told him that it was really nerdy. [laughs] I told him about Stan Lee and what Stan’s real name was. It wasn’t, I expect, especially enticing. Still, he suggested that I write an article about Marvel Comics. I think he liked the fact that I was willing to speak honestly, and make

my opinion known. That I had a point of view. I told him that I wasn’t necessarily a comics fan. This was all very quickly, as fast as what I’m saying it now to you. He asked me if I was going back to New York any time soon. In fact, the girl who’d gotten me the initial interview and lent me her jacket was getting married in New York and I was her bridesmaid, so I was actually going back to New York for the wedding in June or July. I told him yes. What that question really meant was that Rolling Stone wasn’t going to pay my expenses to go to New York and research the article. This was my first brush with something like this and I didn’t know how it worked at all. He told me he’d pay me five cents a word, which kind of set me back, as I couldn’t imagine making any money at five cents a word. But I was so thrilled to have this assignment and, frankly, so scared, that I thanked him and left. I didn’t really understand that I could write to length and say as much as I wanted.

My friend David and I went back to New York. David was a photographer and he took the pictures that were in the article. He’s passed away now, but he took the pictures of Jim Steranko and the bullpen. I interviewed everyone there and everyone was really Jann Wenner sweet. I really didn’t know if they even remembered me after all that Publisher of Rolling Stone magazine. [© the respective time, but nobody told me to my copyright holders.] face that they thought I was a jerk for the way I left. [laughs] I think they were amused. They liked me and I liked them. The article about Marvel Comics was a love letter, really. It was much kinder than articles that I wrote afterwards for Rolling Stone. After that, I was sent to do stories on people who were often… a handful, let’s put it that way. Not nice people, necessarily. The Marvel article was my first. It was 10,000 words long, so it was 500 bucks and it really was an appreciation of everyone that I’d worked with and who was working there at the time. An appreciation of what it was like working at Marvel with those kinds of people. Everything I really experienced during the visit is in the article.

Robin Green in a photo probably taken around the time she was writing such TV fare as Northern Exposure and The Sopranos. At right is a publicity shot for the former, showcasing stars Rob Morrow and Janine Turner. [TM & © CBS-TV or its successors in interest.]

It took me a while to write the article. Nobody really had a deadline for it. But when I finished it and turned it in, it didn’t get any bad reviews from editorial. Everybody loved it. I went into the office and Jann took me over to meet the man who was going to be my editor. He told me they’d had an editorial meeting on the article

Marvel Comics Was Barely The Beginning

and that they wanted to use it with a cover. They wanted a Marvel artist and so they got Herb Trimpe, who drew the Hulk for the cover. I think he also did some art on the inside, or maybe it was the Rolling Stone art department. The bad news was that they were going to save it and use it for inventory, for a time there wasn’t any big rock’n’roll news coming out. Burn it off, basically, at a less valuable time. So that was sad, but I got another assignment right away. I did four or five that first year, 1970-1971. The piece finally came out in Sept. 1971, probably printed in August, and my editor took me down to the printing press so I could watch my first cover come off the presses. The other articles, which appeared first, hadn’t been cover articles. It was thrilling to see! It was just like seeing the first TV show that you write come on the air. That’s just as good as it gets. I’m sure you know what that’s like. RA: Yes, my first cover was a big kick. Actually, all of them are, but the first one is special.

New York, New York Robin and her husband, Mitchell Burgess (also her co-writer on The Sopranos), flank New York City food writer Karen Page at an event in 2013. A final P.S. from Roy T.: “Irony time: I turned up this photo on the Internet—but when I went searching thereon for information about the woman identified as ‘Karen Page,’ I kept getting nothing but photos of Deborah Ann Woll—the actress who now plays ‘Karen Page’ on the Marvel/ Netflix series Daredevil! I finally had to e-mail Robin, who kindly ID’d the NYC journalist for A/E. Thanks for everything, Robin—including that memorable time we all spent together at Marvel Comics half a century ago!” [Photo © the respective copyright holders.]

GREEN: Exactly. I’m currently working on a book called The Only Girl, for Little Brown, which is somewhat about being a pioneer in male-dominated work settings. It won’t be out till 2018. RA: Well, maybe that will work out for you, since this interview isn’t likely to appear until 2018, either. Maybe they can tie in together. I want to thank you for talking to me. GREEN: You’re welcome.

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t was three years ago that I went to work at Marvel Comics. I replaced Flo, whose place I really couldn’t take. Fabulous Flo Steinberg, as she was known to her public, was as much an institution in Marvel’s Second Golden Age as Editor Stan (the Man) Lee himself. She joined Marvel just after Stan had revolutionized the comic industry by giving his characters dimension, character, and personality, and just as Marvel was catching on big. Now there’s a sign on the door of the office which says “SORRY, NO VISITORS” to those who manage to find Marvel’s hidden location. But in Flo’s days the office was located at 625 Madison Avenue, just as it says in the comic books. There was a reception room and Flo would go out to meet the fans. She was the only one they ever saw. They called her “Miss Flo” because “Flo” was too personal for them. Most of them were nice, the little ones were really sweet. But sometimes there’d be older ones, 12 and 13, who would try to get past her. She’d put her foot out and trip them, and say, “I’m sorry, are you all right? Poor thing.” And sometimes they’d come convinced that Spider-Man himself

Robin Green with an old friend, in a pic taken on the day she interviewed the Marvel Bullpen, in the summer of 1970. This photo did not appear with the Rolling Stone article. [Photo © 2018 Estate of David E. Leach; used by permission of Jean Caccicedo.]

“…When You Get Your Picture On The Cover Of The Rolling Stone…” – Take 2! Herb Trimpe’s classic cover for the Rolling Stone issue dated Sept. 16, 1971— roughly half a year after ex-Marvel staffer Robin Green had written this Marvel piece. [Incredible Hulk TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.; Rolling Stone logo, et al., TM & © Wenner Media or successors in interest.]

was right there behind the door. She’d say, “Oh, I’m sorry, he’s out covering a robbery.” Because she didn’t feel it was her place to destroy fantasies. Hundreds of letters came in every week from fans, and Flo was the one who opened them. One time there was a letter addressed to Sergeant Fury from a man in Texas, a real rightwinger, who said, “I notice in Sgt. Fury that you’re anti-Nazi. Well, if you’re anti-Nazi, that must mean you’re pro-Commie, and you’re all a bunch of no-good dirty kikey commie pinko people, and I have a gun and I’m going to come to New York and shoot you.” It was addressed to Stan Lee and the Marvel Comics Group. Flo passed the letter around the office, and everyone got hysterical because this guy was going to come and machine-gun everybody. Flo didn’t know what they were hysterical about, because she was the one who went out to meet the people. Flo was loyal, but for a hundred bucks a week you don’t get shot. So they called the FBI and a man came down. He said, “Wilkins, FBI,” and Flo said, “Steinberg, Marvel.” But Wilkins was very serious and he handled the letter with a handkerchief. Of course they had already put their hands all over it. He said he’d forward it to the anonymous letters file in Washington, and see what could be done. They gave him a whole bunch of comics (their usual tactic, cover them with comics). And for days everyone avoided the reception room and sneaked out early.

1971 Article By Robin Green

and name on it, and a record with Stan and the rest of the Marvel Group saying lines from a script Stan wrote. Corny jokes, in-jokes. But most important, the voices of the people who make Marvel Comics. “OK, out there in Marvel land—face front! This is Stan Lee speaking. You’ve probably never heard a record like this before, because no one would be nutty enough to make one with a bunch of offbeat artists. So anything is liable to happen.” “Hey! Who made you a disc jockey, Lee?”

Blitzkrieg—Marvel Style (Above:) The photo of Fabulous Flo Steinberg that appeared in the 1971 Rolling Stone issue. [© Estate of David E. Leach; used by permission of Jean Caccicedo.] (Right:) One of many “anti-Nazi” panels from Sgt. Fury that might’ve upset the anonymous prototroll who sent Marvel Comics’ staff a death threat in the mid-1960s—whether he meant it or not. From issue #20 (July 1965); script by Stan Lee, pencils by Dick Ayers, inks by Frank Giacoia (as “Frank Ray”). When Stan or Roy scripted that title, Dick claimed the Howling Commandos could’ve talked Adolf’s goosesteppers to death! [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

I visited Flo at her apartment in New York. She’s changed her style. Her hair is long, she looks good. She’s thinking of moving to California. She still hangs out with comic book people— underground comics people. We got stoned and drank some wine, and she talked about the fans and their letters. Flo laughs a high-pitched laugh that sounds like electronic music. And when she smiles her eyes close to crescent shapes. She smiles so hard that she can’t keep her eyes open at the same time. “Yeah, the f***ing mail. Remember how awful it was? I felt every little creature should get some sort of an answer. I really took it seriously, each little letter. One thing that’s awful, when I go to the Comic Convention they have in July at the Hilton all these tall thin fellows come up to me and say [deep voice], ‘Hello, how are you?’ and I’ll say, ‘Who are you?’ and it’ll turn out they’re these kids who used to come up and see me in the reception room. That was eight years ago. And now they’re young men with girlfriends, who go to school and work. I can’t believe it. It’s sort of depressing. “When the kids heard I was leaving Marvel, they sent me really nice letters. They felt bad.” She showed me some of the letters, and some pictures that they’d sent of themselves and Flo in the reception room, pictures taken by their mothers. They signed everything with their numbers, their Merry Marvel Marching Society membership card number. Like Larry Schwartz, MMMS #18756. The Merry Marvel Marching Society is the club that Stan made up for Marvel fans to join. You send in your money and you get a membership card, with your very own membership number

Marvel Mixed-Message Screw-up This full-page ad for MMMS membership ran in many Marvel mags, including Fantastic Four #36 (March 1965). However, despite what the top blurb says, that ad hadn’t run in either of the two preceding issues of FF. Thanks to Barry Pearl & Nick Caputo. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

“Well, well—Jolly Jack Kirby! Say a few words to the fans.” “A few words.” “Look, pal, I’ll take care of the humor around here.” “You? You’ve been using the same gags over and over for years.” “Well, you can’t accuse me of being fickle, can you? By the way, Jack, the readers have been complaining about Sue’s hairdo again.” “What am I supposed to do, be a hairdresser? Next time I’ll draw her baldheaded!” “Boy, I’m glad we caught you when you were in a good mood.”

Face Front!!! You’re On The Winning Team!

“Oh, Stan, do you have a few minutes?” “For our fabulous Gal Friday? Sure! Say hello to the fans, Flo Steinberg.” “Hello, fans. It’s very nice to meet you. As Marvel’s corresponding secretary, I feel as if I know most of you from your letters.” And there was Jolly Solly Brodsky, Adorable Artie Simek, Kid Daredevil Wally Wood, Dick Ayers, and the idol of the Iron Man fans, the Ace of the Avengers, Don Heck. There was also a Merry Marvel Marching Society song: You belong, you belong, you belong, you belong, To the Merry Marvel Marching Society! March along, march along, march along to the song Of the Merry Marvel Marching Society!

At Least The Marvel Bullpen Got Their Picture In The Rolling Stone!

Be a little brighter, try to be ambitious!

In the original 1971 printing, the tagline identified no one in this 1970 photo except Marie Severin. Here, we can ID everyone in the photo except one person. (Left to right:) Stu Schwartzberg, Gil Kane, Al Kurzrok, Gerry Conway, Bill Everett, Herb Trimpe, Herb’s little daughter Melissa (“Missy”), Marie Severin, John Verpoorten, Allyn Brodsky, Roy Thomas, [unidentified, turned toward John V.], John Romita, Morrie Kuramoto, Tony Mortellaro. The unidentified person may be John V.’s pal, animator Bill Peckmann. Sadly, of the 14 adults definitively ID’d above, only half are still among the living. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [© Estate of David E. Leach; used by permission of Jean Caccicedo.]

Eyes a little wider, try to be judicious! Be a good advisor, never, never vicious! Then you will belong! Face Front! Clap your hands. You’re on the winning team! With Stan!

Hanging on the wall in Flo’s bedroom were some cartoons left over from her days at Marvel. One showed Flo lying down with a huge thumb in her stomach, blood all over the floor, and bloody footprints walking away from the scene. Another was a cartoon of the rut Flo was in—two angry eyes peering out of a crack in the ground, and a sign “rut” next to a pail and shovel. That’s how the people in the office at Marvel communicate best, by drawing pictures. That’s how they tell you they love you, or you did a nice thing, and when they’re angry with each other they get it out by drawing a cartoon and everybody laughs. The cartoons on Flo’s wall were done by Marie Severin, the only woman artist at Marvel, maybe the only one in the professional comic book world. “You can dearly love people,” she says, “but they sometimes become awful pests and you cannot verbally assault them because they’ll never forgive you. But a picture, they are so flattered that you took the time to do it, they don’t realize that you are getting rid of this anger. Comic book artists are always excreting all this stuff all over the place, and thank goodness. We’re like Peter Pans. We refuse to grow up, but we get paid for it. Which is fortunate. We’re channeling all this immaturity into something instead of standing on street corners making obscene gestures.” When I walked into the Vision Building, where Marvel is located, I said hi to Frank the doorman, and it was as if I’d never left two years ago. There was that new NO VISITORS sign on the office door, but the door was still open. There was a new face at the front desk, not nearly as pretty as Linda Fite’s—it belonged to Allyn Brodsky, a comic fan who had made the big time. Inside it was still warm, light green and friendly. The superhero-size Spider-Man poster was still hanging on the wall at the end of the hallway. Posters of Hulk, Captain America, Daredevil, and the Fantastic Four hung along the sides. When I walked into the bullpen, the men said, “Hey! Legs is back!” and I remembered how it used to feel to be “Legs Diamond.”

The place looked much the same, except there was a Xerox machine where Marie Severin used to be. She had her drawing board in a different room now and the main bullpen had become a kind of men’s den, with pictures of naked women, some Playboy types and some drawings of comic book characters as they will never appear in Spider-Man. Some of them were downright pornographic, and you couldn’t talk to Tony Mortellaro without a tit or an ass staring you in the face. It felt good to be back in the bullpen again with Ring-A-Ding John Romita, artist for Spider-Man, Happy Herbie Trimpe, who had just switched from Hulk to Sgt. Fury, Merry Marie Severin, Stu Schwartzberg, Morrie, and Allyn. It was a fine reunion until I mentioned that I’d come to write an article about them and then— whoosh—they all disappeared back to their drawing boards. I was no longer Stan’s former leggy secretary, but an emissary from the “real” world, which is a different world from the one inside the office door. The people at Marvel are paid to be professional children and the atmosphere around the office is correspondingly chaotic, moody, riotously emotional. Unlike most Madison Avenue offices, Marvel makes no attempt at decorum. I was always very grateful for that. You could dress the way you wanted to, say anything you wanted to (the key to the bathroom was called the s***house pass), and you even worked because you wanted to because there was very little supervision. All the bullpen people have an interest in telling stories by pictures. That’s the thing about comics. Most of them are really hooked on that kind of work, and over the years they compromise themselves because of their desire to do it. It’s one of the few businesses where individuals will take a cut and still stay in the business. The artists just had a cut at Marvel. Instead of 20 pages in a book, there’s really only 19 pages of artwork and that means they do less work and get less money. And management doesn’t tell the artists what the sales figures are because “they’re afraid you’ll ask for a raise or something.”

1971 Article By Robin Green

For most of them the work is an emotional outlet. They can set loose fantasies most of us repress as we grow older! Herb Trimpe put it this way: “If a story works out well, I have the same feeling of satisfaction as if I’d worked out all day long, or gone on an eight-mile hike. It’s a release. Plus there’s a feeling of creation, of controlling a situation. In a comic book story, unlike life, you know what the plot is and you can control every aspect of that story. It makes you sort of a miniature god.” I had lunch with Herb and it was good to talk to him. He’d been my favorite bullpen artist, not just because I dug the way he drew the Hulk, but because he was so nice to look at. He’s incredibly handsome, tall and wiry with deep-set eyes and black hair. He looks like a superhero, like the Phantom Eagle, or a good-looking Hulk. Or maybe the Hulk looks like an angry, ugly him. He’s been through a lot of changes in the last two years, including a divorce. His old lady is Linda Fite, who used to work at Marvel. She was my partner in letteropening and general office-disrupting, a beautiful hip Southern belle with a fine sense of humor, and a fine sense of life.

Hulking Out (Clockwise)! Robin Green and Incredible Hulk artist Herb Trimpe, in a photo not used in Rolling Stone. In the rock/pop culture magazine, Trimpe was depicted in front of a Hulk poster he’d drawn very much in the style of Jack Kirby, whose art had defined the Marvel style and who had co-created most of its major super-heroes. [Photos © Estate of David E. Leach; used by permission of Jean Caccicedo.] An early-’70s office cartoon by Marie Severin illustrating Herb’s effect on the ladies at the Marvel offices, with her own IDs. This pic originally appeared a bit larger in A/E #124, in conjunction with Richard Arndt’s interview of Trimpe. [© Marie Severin.]

Herb’s still going through a lot of changes and confusion. Reality is making some heavy demands on him. Gil Kane said, “It’s hard to keep the boy in the cartoonist because if you do, it means that you are talking about an individual that never outgrows his need for fantasy.” And that’s the question. How to remain a child and cope with a world that imposes problems and responsibilities? Tired of the hour-long commute to work, Herb moved from his home in Peekskill, New York, where he was born, to a room in the city. He painted the floors battleship grey, the trim and his drawing table he painted black. Linda had given him three wooden chairs painted in primary colors. His collection of toy soldiers, tanks, trucks, and model airplanes were arranged in neat rows on his shelves. He’s always had an interest in flying—he was in the Air Force for a while—and someday, he says, he would like to go to Mars. Herb would make a successful criminal, because he’s the last person anybody would suspect. People always put him in the role of being a good guy. When he was in high school he won the good-guy medal for the senior class. “It really stuck in my craw. Anybody that gets the good guy medal, there has to be something wrong with them. We had an awards assembly and they had this medal. A real medal, it’s a goddam medal with a ribbon on it, a pin, it came in a plastic case with a felt backing and all that crap. It was named for a student who had done very well and was killed in a traffic accident and they made this award in his memory. “It’s not an athletic award, it’s not a scholastic award. It’s just for being cooperative. If a teacher needed a project done, you’d help do it. I didn’t realize what it was I felt at the time, but now I realize

that I felt like a traitor. Like in Bridge over the River Kwai, when the Japanese give the English commander a medal for building that bridge for them, that would be the last thing he’d want to get, even though he wanted to do a good job on the bridge, and he wanted to show those people that the British army does a job right. “So at the senior assembly they said, ‘For helping his fellow student and faculty,’ and all that sh**, and they said, ‘Herb Trimpe.’ I was dumbfounded and embarrassed. And ten years later I said to myself, I’m going to get even with those bastards if it’s the last thing I do. Anybody who gets a good-guy medal, they must be something wrong. So now I’m real bad. I react in the opposite direction, trying to be bad. If you keep being a good guy, people will take advantage of you, they’ll take you for granted. Because I’m not a threat to people they don’t listen to me. Herb Trimpe, they say that’s one guy you don’t have to worry about. Hah.” He scowled at the Coca-Cola he was drinking.

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I went to the Marvel office Christmas party. Stan wasn’t there; just the slaves. They had already downed two bottles of champagne by the time I came, and were working on the second bottle of Scotch. There was a lot of laughter, more than usual, and the atmosphere is always pretty high there. There were peanuts, and powdered sugar cookies, the kind that spell asphyxiation if you inhale at the wrong moment, and salamis that Holly the secretary’s father manufactured. I drank more than my share of the Scotch and wandered into my old room. I sat down at my old desk. On the wall in front of me were pinned up the recent covers from the 30 Marvel titles published. My old friends Daredevil, the blind superhero in the red suit, Thor, the Asgardian sweetheart with the magic hammer, Sub-Mariner, Captain America, Iron Man, Sergeant Fury, Invisible Girl, the Human Torch, the Thing, the Avengers, Spider-Man, the Black Panther, the Falcon, Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D., and a newcomer, Conan the Barbarian, whom Marie calls Conan the Masochist.

Of Princes & Paper Money (Top center:) Roy Thomas talks on the phone while opening an envelope containing a couple of dollar bills in a folded sheet of paper. (You tell us what that means!) Mercifully, this 1970 pic didn’t appear in Rolling Stone. [© Estate of David E. Leach; used by permission of Jean Caccicedo.] (Above:) The death of the Lady Dorma, and the anguish of Prince Namor— the final page of Sub-Mariner #37 (May 1971). Script by Roy T., pencils by Ross Andru, inks by Mike Esposito. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

A Production Number Production manager John Verpoorten and secretary Holly Resnikoff, one of Flo’s and Robin’s successors. (One or two others had filled in, including Roy’s new bride Jean and, apparently, Mimi Gold.) The ultimate source of this photo is uncertain, but it must have been taken circa 1970-71. [© the respective copyright holders.] Precise dates can be hard to pin down. In a 2018 e-mail to Ye Editor, Robin says she moved to NYC “either in December [of 1967] or that winter. I would have been at Marvel in ’68. That summer I moved to Chicago, spent the winter there, moved to Berkeley in ’69 June. I’m sure of this because we got there right after People’s Park.” She recalls that the basic Marvel visit getting material for the article occurred in June of ’70, so it’s likely that she returned that December for the “Marvel office Christmas party.” After all, the article was published less than a year later, so Robin’s memories in the article are probably correct. And, of course, sugar cookies and Scotch were hardly on offer around Marvel except at Yuletide!

I thought about Dorma, the Sub-Mariner’s blue-skinned love. She and Subby had been planning to get married ever since I could remember. And Roy Thomas, who writes Sub-Mariner, had just told me of poor Dorma’s fate. Roy had let them get married because they’d been planning the wedding for so long, but they didn’t even get as far as their wedding night. Roy arranged for a green-skinned girl who was in love with the Sub-Mariner to kill Dorma, and he said he was never going to bring her back again. He said he felt that Sub Mariner should be a lone wolf and he didn’t like the idea of his having such a stable home, a Lois Lane situation. Now the brokenhearted Sub-Mariner would be even more hostile, and roam the seas alone. I felt very sad that the blue-skinned Dorma was gone. And I thought about the Silver Surfer, who used to have a book of his own. He was the sexiest superhero, a sleek silverplated sports trophy of a guy who sped through the galaxies on a surfboard made of silver. A philosopher as well, who flew around unhappy about pollution and man’s inhumanity to man, and went nowhere. He was a hit with older audiences, but didn’t sell enough to survive, so the book was killed. But the Silver Surfer still makes guest appearances in other comic books, and I could see him gliding from cover to cover before me.

1971 Article By Robin Green

Most of the characters aren’t drawn in the Marvel office. They’re done by freelance artists and sent in through the mail. But Spider-Man and Hulk were set loose in the Vision Building and had their home there. I could almost feel them there, more with every sip of Scotch. The colors on the covers seemed to jump and move around, the characters to come alive in front of me. They were having a Christmas party, too. Kid Colt brought in a huge tree he had chopped down, and Spidey decorated it with his web-shooter. The webbing came out sparkling silver. The Silver Surfer glided by and topped the tree with a star he’d picked from the galaxies. Everyone had brought presents for Reed and Sue’s super-baby. And then in came Santa Claus, all dressed in red with a big phony beard and moustache. It was a beautiful party. But all at once I realized that Santa was the sinister Red Skull. Couldn’t everybody see that? And what was in the huge sack he was carrying? In leaped Daredevil, the blind superhero. To him disguises meant nothing, because he couldn’t see anyway. His radar-sharp senses detected the evil Red Skull’s presence and he signaled the danger to Ben Grimm who was standing in back of Santa. Ben turned into the Thing and lunged at the villain yelling, “It’s clobberin’ time!” But too late! Santa Claus/Red Skull was too fast for him and managed to detonate the negative energy machine in his sack. Everything disappeared, the colors of all shapes and sizes receded and everything turned white before me. The whiteness floated down to my desk. I picked it up. It was a piece of paper with an original drawing of Spider-Man on it and it was signed “Merry Christmas to Robin from Johnny Romita.”

Surf’s Still Up! Going on sale during the period when The Silver Surfer had lost his own title was Sub-Mariner #35 (March 1971), in which the Surfer joined Namor and the Hulk for the second issue in a row as part of “Titans Three,” this time arrayed against The Avengers. This teaming led directly to the creation of “The Defenders”; but Stan originally insisted that Dr. Strange, not the Surfer, be that group’s third member, because he didn’t really want anyone except himself writing Surfy on a regular basis. Art by Sal Buscema, with some “adjustments” by Herb Trimpe, according to the Grand Comics Database. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Most people who read comic books are not fans. They aren’t concerned about who makes the books, or how. They read the comics, then lose them, or give them to a younger brother who loses them or tears them up. Or they roll them up and stuff them in a back pocket to read again later. But a real comic book lover never folds or bends his comics. He reads them, catalogues them, and files them in his library of other comics where he can refer to them instantly and they won’t get bent or soiled. Most comic book readers buy comics occasionally, three or four a month, usually attracted by

the bright gaudy colors on the cover, which are put there to do just that. But the aficionado buys as many as he can afford, and he arranges to afford all of them. This is another breed of comic book reader, the fanatic, the fan, the Marvel Maniac, the True Believer. I asked Marie Severin about the fans, the ones who find the office, and manage to get in. She put down the plastic cigarette she was sucking on. Marie says she has the common sense, or pride, to hide what she really is. Like she dresses very Peck Jazzy Johnny Romita and Peck, and with her Robin reports that, alas, the original Spiderwide brown eyes looks Man Christmas card that John Romita made like the kind of person for her at the 1970 Marvel Christmas party got people on the street lost somewhere over the decades—but here’s ask for directions. But a photo of the guy some people now refer to if she dressed the way as “John Romita, Sr.,” with the office Spidey she really wanted to, it poster—which he’d drawn. Among artists, he would be, she says, gold definitely ranks just behind Kirby and Ditko in ultimate importance to the rise of Marvel lamé. “Gee,” she said, Comics. [Photo © Estate of David E. Leach; “they’re so uninteresting, used by permission of Jean Caccicedo.] that’s why they’re fans. If they were interesting they wouldn’t be fans. I mean, is a hospital ward interesting? The fans buy the books, but they don’t support comics. Comics are supported by many other normal little children, but the fans are the ones who are hung up on it. I think fans are very lonely.” She says the fans are arrogant now. They don’t gasp and ooh and ahh anymore. The new breed of fans just want to lean over your shoulder and tell you what you’re doing wrong. Hanging above Marie’s desk is a cartoon she drew describing the fans who come to the office. “There’s one guy that clutches his artwork to his chest and won’t show it to anybody but Stan, and he is what the office calls the wet dream. Then there’s the mother that brings the child up and the child is the absolute duplication of her, with short hair and no bosoms, and the poor child has done these comics and they’re all stapled and worn and looked at, and she is saying, ‘Look at this, isn’t this marvelous that he can draw this,’ and you look at what the child has drawn and there’s murder, every page he’s killing his mother, right there, and she is propagating it, bringing this child up and he just looks at you and doesn’t talk or communicate in any way. “And then there’s the whole family that comes up and the father’s taking pictures and bumping into everything, and they’re from Indiana or something and awfully nice dull people, and the mother does all the talking and we keep handing the children pictures and there’s no reaction, these children could be in a covered wagon. And they say to John Romita, ‘Yes, I like Spider-Man. I like Steve Ditko [who used to draw Spider-Man],’ and John Romita cries because he is an artist, and Ditko was a fan, but they all remember Ditko. And then there are the little thieves who steal anything. They don’t come up to steal, it just happens.

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Merry Marie Severin hard at work in the office, as seen in the 1970 student documentary We Love You, Herb Trimpe. Found on the Internet by Mike Mikulovsky. [© John Michael Riley.] By the latter part of 1970, “Marie the She,” as Stan once credited her, was doing mostly cover layouts and occasional cover penciling—as witness her layout for the cover of Sub-Mariner #33 (Jan. 1971), which was later illustrated by Sal Buscema. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] Before long, though, she would begin penciling a celebrated run on Marvel’s Kull the Conqueror, starring a hero conceived by Conan creator Robert E. Howard, beginning with #2 (Sept. 1971); that sequence of issues would mostly be inked by her legendary brother John Severin.

“Then there are the really quiet totally subdued kids, with acne all over their faces, but with something to show, work—that they’ve done, and you have got to give them credit, it’s not bad. And then there’s the beatnik woman from the Village, and they’re usually, pardon the expression, doing an article for a magazine, and they’re very overbearing, and when Stan comes in they immediately hunch over and follow him.” Marvelmania is a subculture, a living breathing-changinghappening art form, a fantasy world in which millions live, some of them most of the time. The fans participate in the process of creating the comic fantasy world. They send in their ideas and criticisms and

“Marvel Reception Area” This circa-1970 office cartoon by Marie took a swipe—how good-natured it may be, one can only guess—at some of the fans who showed up in the Marvel reception area. Thanks to Jon B. Cooke, who recently ran this piece in the 16th issue of our sister TwoMorrows magazine Comic Book Creator. [© Marie Severin.] In retrospect, Roy Thomas says, “I’ve no personal recollection of Stan scolding Marie or Flo for any of their remarks quoted in the Rolling Stone article; but, knowing him as I do, I’m dead certain he had to be very unhappy with them, since the last thing in the world he wanted done was disparaging Marvel’s fans. Flo, of course, no longer worked for him, but Marie did— and if he didn’t give her at least some grief concerning her comments, it would only have been because I think he was always just a little intimidated by Marie—as we all were, much as we loved her, and still do.” [© Marie Severin]

Stan listens to them. The comic world has a language and logic of its own, even a whole technology that works for it, and the books have to be consistent within that world. If they are not consistent, letters will pour in about a mistake. For instance, if a book says that the Hulk was transported back to 1917 to fight Phantom Eagle in France, hundreds of readers will writes in to object that Phantom Eagle was in Germany at the time. Because they keep track, they know everything that’s happened in that strange world.

1971 Article By Robin Green

If a reader spots a mistake and writes in about it, he will receive a “No-Prize.” A No-Prize is an empty envelope which has “No-Prize” printed on it, and the name of the recipient. One interesting thing about being the person who opened the mail was the occasional obscene letter. And there were some precocious drawings of Spidey and Gwen doing some S-M bondage trips, some letters full of swear words some kid just couldn’t hold in anymore. There were some fantasies that comics books don’t acknowledge, but kids have them anyway. I remember one letter from a young couple who had met through the letters page of Silver Surfer comics. The girl had written a letter which was published, and the boy had read the letter, dug what she said, and written to her. They met at a comic book convention a little later, and shortly afterward were married. In every comic, there’s a letters page and on the bottom of every letters page is a box which reads: “Know Ye These, The Hallowed Ranks of Marveldom [these ranks were made up by a fan and now they are used in the comic books]: R.F.O. (Real Frantic One)—a buyer of at least three Marvel mags a month. T.T.B. (Titanic True Believer)—a divinely- inspired No-Prize winner. Q.N.S. (Quite ‘Nuff Sayer)—A fortunate Frantic One who’s had a letter printed. K.O.F. (Keeper of the Flame)—one who recruits a Newcomer to Marvel’s rollickin’ ranks. P.M.M. (Permanent Marvelite Maximus)—Anyone possessing all four of the other titles. F.F.F. (Fearless Front-Facer)—An honorary title bestowed for devotion to Marvel above and beyond the call of duty.” One F.F.F. is Roy Thomas, editor of the fanzine Alter Ego. (A fanzine is a fan magazine devoted completely to comic books.) He told me, “I was and in many ways still am a fan. I’m constantly being told this by some professional artist that’s trying to pick on me or something.” Roy has risen to a position in the comic world which many a fan must envy: Stan Lee’s Associate Editor. He’s been into comic books, adventure, and costumed characters since he was four and a half, and he wanted to get involved in the comics ever since he discovered that people actually made them. “I know that the stories are escapist, but I didn’t have a particularly unhappy childhood to escape from. Some did. Tiny Tim used to pretend he was Captain America and beat up someone, and I have a friend who believes that Captain Marvel saved his sanity when he was in military school, and he’s maintained an affection for him ever since. I was small but I never got beat up or anything by bullies. There weren’t that many bullies in Jackson, Missouri. Maybe the fact that I was small made me identify with all the heroes with all their power and everything, but if that’s true it was very unconscious. I never thought about why I was getting into comics.”

Roy & Jean Thomas This slightly fuzzy photo of Roy and his then-wife Jeanie (they’d gotten married in mid-1968) appeared in Martin Greim’s 1969 fanzine Comic Crusader #8, with the couple garbed as Spider-Man and The Invisible Girl for the annual Rutland, Vermont, Halloween parade. The story of those costumes, which in 1972 they’d also wear in Marvel’s Carnegie Hall stage show, was last told in a caption in A/E #150. (Roy has since sold the Spidey outfit, but still has the other, which would also work for a wannabe Mr. Fantastic or Human Torch.) In addition, because it’s an editor’s prerogative, Roy feels obliged to dispute, however respectfully, a couple of statements made at this point in Robin’s article: “(1) Actually, not nearly ‘every book in [my] house’ (actually an apartment Len Brown and I shared in Brooklyn) was ‘fantasy or related to it.’ By age 30, I had acquired at least an equal number of volumes of history, biography, mythology, and even mainstream fiction—not to mention a full set of the encyclopedic Great Books of the Western World, which contained a combination of all the above. “(2) The photo Flo showed Robin of my gawky self in an FF T-shirt (it was printed in A/E #136) was taken at the July 1965 New York comics convention, right after those T-shirts first arrived at the Marvel offices, and reflected nothing I ever wore to my day job. For an image of my actual work-garb when I started at Marvel, see the 1965 photo of Flo and me on p. 3.” “And, oh yeah (3): By 1970, at least, I did know what a ‘head’ was, having consorted with several over the previous half-decade, including one who has since gone on to win a Pulitzer Prize. But I did steer clear of even the mildest hallucinogens myself; I had this morbid fear that taking a single puff on a proffered joint would completely denude me of my Protestant work ethic and I’d wind up just sitting in a corner contemplating my navel.

All through college and for the four years he taught high school, he still read comic books, and wrote to the companies, National and Marvel. He maintained a nice relationship by mail

Pulling Rank In the early ’70s, as Robin reports, the bottoms of Marvel’s letters pages featured a bordered yellow box that listed all of “The Hallowed Ranks of Marveldom,” a lingering echo of the Merry Marvel Marching Society years. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

“’Nuff said?”

with National, but when he wrote to Marvel, someone named Flo Steinberg would answer his letters, and that didn’t mean much to him, so he stopped writing. He was going to go to graduate school in foreign relations, but he happened to get a letter from National offering him a job working on Superman. He only worked there for two weeks—he and the director didn’t get along—so he took a writer’s test for Marvel, and went to work for them. National had been his first love, being the biggest of comic book companies. When he told the people at National he was going over to Marvel, they thought he was a spy and ordered him out immediately. Flo showed me a picture of Roy when he first came to

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work for Marvel. He was wearing a Fantastic Four T-shirt. Roy is the fan supreme. His hobby has become his livelihood. And he is not just a professional now, but keeps up interest in being a fan as well. He has bound volumes of Marvel comic books, and every book in his house is fantasy or related to it. But he says sometimes he gets so immersed in it that everything he does has something to do, some connection with comics. Every year there is a comic parade in Rutland, Vermont, on Halloween. He gets to dress as Spider-Man, and his wife Jeanie is Invisible Girl. The costumes they wear were made for a Macy’s parade, but the people who were supposed to wear them were paid in advance, and got drunk, and didn’t show up. So the costumes had never been worn. Comic book folks don’t meet their public very often, but when they do the reactions are interesting. People used to ask Roy if everybody up at Marvel was a “head”—he didn’t know the meaning of the word. “People who had read ‘Doctor Strange’ thought people at Marvel must be heads,” says Roy, “because they had had similar experiences high on mushrooms. But Stan’s pretty straight, and I am too, pretty square, not to the point of being completely ignorant of such things, but obviously I don’t use hallucinogens, nor do I think any artists do. Probably if they did they wouldn’t do any work at all. “With some of these of these people, this particular segment of their minds is already little more far out than apple pie, but after all, social equality and peace are the modern form of motherhood and apple pie. Everybody’s in favor of peace and women’s lib, at least up to a certain point. I used to be liberal, but the world has moved to the left. I think I’d rather stick with fantasy. Some people think that everything should be relevant, but I think you should be able to escape.” Jim Steranko was at Marvel when I worked there. Even though Jim had only done about 25 books, there wasn’t a fan who didn’t know of him and dig his work. He used to do the Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. books, and was always getting into hassles with the Comic Book Code people. The Code had come into existence during the juvenile delinquent scare of the Fifties. At the time EC (Entertaining Comics) was coming out with a crime and horror series that was pretty gory and horrifying. People killing their wives and stuffing them into garbage disposals which would backfire and blood would gush all over the place. And Marvel was doing its share of gore, too. The Code completely banned all horror and terror comics and all material which might be immoral or in poor taste, anything which could stimulate “the lower and baser emotions.” It fosters respect for parents, for police, judges, and other government officials. It forbids profanity, obscenity, vulgarity; it requires that females be drawn realistically “without exaggeration of any physical qualities.” Each of its 41 provisions is a bulwark against the inclusion in comic books of any material which “may be

Jim Steranko—From Escape Artist To Comic Artist Rolling Stone printed the above triptych of photos—one taken especially for the article, framed by two pics from his “escape artist” days. [Middle photo © Estate of David E. Leach; used by permission of Jean Caccideo; other photos © the respective copyright holders.] The story of the accompanying Comics Code-offending page from Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. #2 (July 1968), as inked by Frank Giacoia, has often been told. See particularly writer/penciler Steranko in his History of Comics and Roy T., who got involved as associate editor, in Taschen’s 2014 tome 75 Years of Marvel: From the Golden Age to the Silver Screen. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

undesirable for exposure to youthful readers.” In short, the Code is a drag. Steranko’s female characters were always too sexy, and they’d come back from the Code, where all material was sent for approval, with modified bosoms and asses. There was one beautiful page which was perhaps the first realistic love scene in comics. It was a silent page, no words, because “there is a time for talking and a time for silence, and this was a time for silence.” So one panel had the stereo in Fury’s apartment to show there was music playing, cigarettes in the ash tray in one, there was a sequence of intercut shots where she moved closer to him, much more intimately, there was a kiss, there was a rose, and then there was one panel with the telephone off the

1971 Article By Robin Green

hook, which the Comic Book Code made him put back on. The telephone off the hook must have appealed to the prurient interest of someone at the dusty little Code office, maybe Len Darvin himself, or maybe Tania Fredericks, his assistant in rooting out the dirty. Jim Steranko said after that he got horny every time he saw a telephone off the hook. Anyway, the last panel on that page had Nick and his old lady kneeling, with their arms around each other, and that was entirely too much for the Code, so the panel was replaced with a picture of a gun in its holster. I used to dig it when Steranko came to town. He didn’t work at the office, but like many artists freelanced the work at home. One day he took me for a ride in the big convertible Cadillac he was driving in those days. We got to talking and he told me about himself. “Maybe because I grew up reading comics, I was always less realistic than most people. I’m kind of a dreamer, I’m still a dreamer. I live in my own world. When I get up in the morning, go to bed at night, even while I’m sleeping, I’m thinking of fantastic things. I don’t want to live the life that those people live out there. It’s a dull life. “My dad did many things and one of them was magic. I grew up seeing him work, do tricks and things. Whenever I could I’d dig out those books and read them and eventually began to do magic and that led into escapes. Escapes meaning that when I was 15, 16, and 17, I was breaking out of jails, out of strait jackets and handcuffs, out of safes and vaults, out of packing boxes dropped to the bottom of a river. I did TV shows and Elks and the American Legion. “And I was into locks. I have no mechanical ability whatsoever except when it comes to locks. In school a week never went by when I wasn’t called over the loud speaker to unlock a car when some teacher had locked his keys inside it. They’d say, ‘Steranko, bring your tools.’ “I was fourteen at the time, new in the lock business, and I didn’t know much about locks, so I could say crazy things. I had an idea that combination locks could have many combinations. And I told this locksmith, who really didn’t want to be bothered, ‘cause it’s like secretive stuff, these machines around us to protect us. I told him that I had my idea and he said, ‘Get out of here, kid, don’t bother me.’ I came back a week later and I said, ‘Give me any lock that you have’ and I showed him various combinations that could open it, which knocked him out. I had a device I made up that could give me multiple combinations, a device about as big as my thumbnail. I invented many devices for my escapes and I wrote a book with all that material in it. “My first jailbreak I did for publicity purposes so I could book my act. I had to create a demand for this act, because who wants a 15-year-old kid cluttering up their stage? So when I was ready, I went to the police department and I talked to a guy named Captain Feldman, who was very amenable, a hell of a nice guy, an Edward G. Robinson-looking guy, and he said OK, we’ll try it. I told him I’d be by the next day after school. From there I went to the newspaper office, and said I’d be at the jail at 3:30, so they should send a photographer and a reporter and I’d bust out of jail. The police department didn’t know there was going to be publicity, and Captain Feldman was a little pissed off that the reporters were there, but of course they had to be. This time wasn’t really a jailbreak. They handcuffed me spread-eagle to the outside of the cell, hands and feet. They had given me half an hour to do it. It took me 2 minutes. They had searched me head to toe, but I had these miniscule devices.”

The transition from escapes to crime was easy, and at 17 Jim became a very ingenious juvenile delinquent. He believed anything that could be locked by one man could be opened by another: him. “I was familiar with safes from the inside, so I knew things, like there’s particular kind of safe, if it fell on you you’d be crushed, it’s a big heavy monster. But all you have to do is hit the right corner with a sledge hammer. That’s all it takes to open it up. You have to hit it at the right spot, but that will knock the bolt that holds the thing. It completely bypasses the tumblers. And the door will fly open. “One of my stratagems in my career of crime was to change cars frequently. If I’d steal a car in Reading, I might replace it with another car in Allentown with another one in Easton. If you use one car for a whole night’s work, you stand a pretty good chance of being nabbed. And of course cars were no problem for me to steal. Eventually I became so particular, if a car didn’t have, a radio, I’d stop after a block and steal another one. Or if it didn’t have a full tank of gas. ’Cause how’s an honest thief going to make out if he has to spend five bucks to fill up the gas tank? So it had to be a nice car, radio and all the conveniences. “I remember once, me and another guy committed our only armed robbery. There’s a difference between armed robbery and burglary, around 15 or 25 years. Armed robbery is a heavy rap. What I was was a burglar. I hit places like gas stations, or wherever there were cash registers. “Most of our burglaries were committed without a word. We’d just pull up to a likely-looking place and there was my getaway man and me. He’d sit in the car and I’d get through the doors or windows, and go through the place. But this one time we were going to do one armed robbery. “We were driving around, not in Reading, because none of the things we did were done in Reading, maybe one or two. I stole a submachine gun in Reading, but that was all. Anyway it was a spur of the moment thing. We saw this man coming out of a building. He was locking up, very well dressed, he had like a homburg, an old man about 60. Got in this brand new Lincoln Continental. “I said, ‘Follow that guy, I’ve got an idea.’ So he drove across the city with us following him, and finally he pulled up, in this

Back To The Drawing Board And what a drawing board! We presume this pic was taken in Steranko’s own studio when Robin and her photographer drove down to Reading, Pennsylvania, in 1970—’cause Marvel Comics sure never had anything that wildly ornate in its Madison Avenue offices! This image did not appear in Rolling Stone. [© Estate of David E. Leach; used by permission of Jean Caccicedo.]

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very nice section of town, parked the car, and I said to my partner, ‘Pull up in front of him and you get out and cover one side of the car,’ and I pulled out one of my pearl-handled .38s and stuck this gun in the man’s face. And I said, ‘Your money or your life, mother***er, let’s go. Get it out, whatever you got.’ And the other guy was on the other side with a gun. And the man laughed. He laughed! This was a nervous laugh, you know, like when you have an embarrassing moment, like in church when you start laughing and you can’t stop. “Well, here were two guys, you know, with guns, and I don’t know if you’ve ever been on the other end of a gun barrel, but it’s an uncomfortable feeling. I didn’t know what to do. Like, I never saw in all the movies that I have seen with Cagney, Bogart, and Robinson, nobody ever laughed. This was a situation not covered in the books. “So we like stood there looking at each other, and I realized that sooner or later somebody was going to walk by or drive by. This called for the right decision. And I finally wound up saying, ‘Ah, ‘scuse me, mister, we thought you were someone else,’ and got back in the car, and drove out of that district. That was it for armed robbery. I couldn’t take another laugh. “I don’t know where your head’s at, but I wouldn’t shoot anybody for any amount of money. I don’t mind stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, which was myself, but I certainly would never shoot anybody, that’s just too far out.

The Mighty Steranko By late 1969, Steranko had left the comicbook field, to focus his energies on new challenges such as his two-volume History of Comics—and painting paperback covers, such as the one above, done for Lancer Books. In 1972, he would found the comics-related magazine Comixscene, which would morph into the long-running Mediascene. [Art © Jim Steranko.]

“Eventually they caught me and I had to give up my guns. I had many guns. A complete arsenal. My two pearl-handled .38s, 30 pistols, and countless rifles, we had .45s, and a submachine gun that shot nine millimeter parabellum shells. I carried that gun home, walking along the streets of Reading with it over my shoulders, across my back, like you carry a baseball bat when you’re a kid. And nobody noticed me, I guess, ‘cause they didn’t stop me. I was only in jail until my trial, about a month, and they had me in solitary with a 24-hour guard because of my history as an escape artist. They knew all it would take me was three minutes and I’d be out. I was placed on probation—I was still a juvenile delinquent at the time. But I had to pay back what I had stolen, make restitution for whatever stuff I had done. It took me a couple of years to do that.” I drove down to Pennsylvania to visit Jim. He still lives in Reading, which turned out to be a funky old railroad town. I walked through an iron gate, through an old heavy door and into a dark hallway with pink faded flowered wallpaper, and the smell of somebody’s grandmother’s cabbage soup. Up three flights to a dark wood door, which Steranko opened, dressed in white from turtleneck to ankles, with pointed black Italian boots. Jim is a fantasy character who really exists. “After all,” he once said, “the mask is the man.” The color TV was on, an Edward G. Robinson movie, but no audio. Jim is a good-looking guy—he looks a lot like Nick Fury except for the eye patch, compact and strong looking, with a lively gleam in his eyes. He hasn’t been working for Marvel for a while. Jim Steranko would like to be the Michelangelo of comic book art. But as he said, who’s going to pay any attention if you have Michelangelo working and it costs only a dime? People don’t see all the work that goes into comic book art. They don’t realize there’s

a writer and an artist and an inker and a letterer and a colorist. Even so, Jim thinks most of what’s done is trash. There are a few creative people, and the rest are imitators and the work that’s done is repetitious. “Comic books are trash. But that TV set is trash, and so much of music is trash. And books like Peyton Place and Gone with the Wind and The Power of Positive Thinking and The Love Machine. It’s all trash.” I asked if he considered the stuff he did to be trash. “Of course,” he said. “So you like trash?” “Well, yeah, of course I like trash. Of course, human flesh is trash, too. Comic books are throwaway art, they’re just temporary. But the whole form has a chance to endure. I believe that ideas are more important than human life. I think that in every person there is maybe one idea, one grand idea. I know that I will be immortal because I have turned out words and pictures and as long as one of these lasts, I will truly endure. At least until the end of this planet. I haven’t done that one thing yet that I can call really redeeming. That will be in the future. “I don’t believe in peace, either. I used to think, ‘Love and Peace.’ But now I have changed my mind about that. I have a new philosophy. It’s this: I believe that I am an agent put here to maintain the aspect of equipoise in the universe, the balance of nature. That means warmth and cold, night and day, light and darkness, order and chaos, good and evil, peace and war, love and hate. I think there’s a reason for those things being, and I do whatever I can to maintain that. “For example, before you came, I ripped up that Life magazine. It came in the mail today, and I destroyed it by ripping out things that I wanted. Now tomorrow I might destroy an idea and the day after I might destroy a person. I believe that in order for life

1971 Article By Robin Green

to endure there has to be movement and change. Static is death. Motion is life. So every day I create something, a drawing, some writing, something new. And in order to maintain that balance, I’ll destroy something. After you’ve done it for a while, you begin to see signs that something will beg to be destroyed.”

Sometimes God used to remind me of Errol Flynn. I remember once going into Stan’s office to give him some letters and finding him eight feet tall standing on a chair. A balloon with “I’ll show you who walks away from here!” in it flew out of his mouth as he leapt from the chair and started faking punches at an artist.

There are no bounds to Steranko’s imagination. He said that when aliens land here, or when we land on another planet, we are going to communicate with pictures, illustrated stories, comic books. I asked him if he really believed there was someone out there. “Oh, sure,” he said, “there’s someone out there. It’s staggering no matter how you think about it. Either there’s no one out there and you’re alone, or there is someone. Either way it’s overwhelming.”

Stan has been editor of Marvel Comics since he was 17 [sic— actually 18] and Marvel was called Timely, over 30 years ago. He used to have a collection of all the comics he had ever put out, a collection that would be worth quite a lot of money now. He had it stashed in the cellar of the house he used to have in Hewlitt, Long Island. But one day he went down to look through some old issues and found that the whole collection was ruined. It had gotten wet from a leak through the walls, and the books were all mildewed, and crumbled in his hands at the touch.

Steranko works in the back room of his apartment. His walls are covered with posters of sexy girls dressed in leather, original comic artwork, paintings he’s done for paperback book covers, and a huge library of pulps and comics. He has an antique Colt .45 gun, and on the floor in a cage is a giant hare (“what’s a magician without a rabbit?”). He showed me a book he’d written about escaping when he was a teenager. It was a special Houdini Memorial issue of a magazine, and it had pictures of Steranko handcuffed to the cell of a jail, Steranko in a straitjacket, Steranko hanging from the face of a huge clock by his ankles, and all kinds of pictures of the devices he had invented for escapes. He told me about one stunt he did where he was buried alive three feet under for 15 minutes. He had made an air pocket in front of his mouth with just enough air to survive if he timed his breathing right. He is a man who likes to escape. “I have led the loneliest life of all the people I have ever known. All the things that I do, like writing and painting, are solitary proceedings. You cannot write with someone else, unless you’re collaborating, which I don’t do. That means you spend hours alone. I spent an entire childhood writing and drawing by myself, studying and practicing magic. To this very day, I work alone in this back room. “But I believe that happiness is nothing. Like most things, it is temporary. I don’t think people were put here to be happy. I think if you decide to be an artist or a writer, you automatically accept the responsibility of being alone. However, after your 50 or 60 years are up you’ll be able to look back and see this output that you’ve done that will endure long after you’re gone, and will continue to fill the minds of millions of people.”

Stan (The Man) Lee revolutionized the comic book industry ten years ago by deciding to let his superheroes live in the real world: his real world. He made Spider-Man a neurotic, guiltridden, insecure superhero with romantic problems, financial problems, sinus attacks, and fits of insecurity, embarrassed about appearing in public in a costume. Lately Spider-Man’s life has become almost unbearable. Peter Parker is committed to his role of Spider-Man, fighter for justice and good, and yet it is this role which has alienated him from the world he seeks to help. His girl Gwen hates Spider-Man for killing her father, and he’s so busy playing “Web-Spinner” he hasn’t time for anyone who really matters, like his Aunt May, who smothers him with motherly attention and can’t be told about his secret identity because she would die of a heart attack. The public thinks he is a thief and murderer. He can’t win. If he should forsake his super-powers and try to be just Peter Parker, he feels guilty for not fighting crime and doing the good he knows he can do. Stan told me he thinks of his superheroes as copies of himself. When I asked him for an interview, he asked me if I would be nice. He said the world was a hostile place. I guess that’s just the mood he’s in lately. Things have been tough around Marvel. His best artist Jack Kirby went over to National not so long ago, and

***** He was my boss and sometimes I liked him and sometimes I hated him, but I always did what he told me to, sometimes grudgingly, like when he’d have me run the errands his wife didn’t feel like doing, but I always did them. Because he worked so hard, tried so hard, was so enthusiastic, you’d want to make it easier for him. He’s got a one-man show going, he won’t delegate, which is why he works so hard. In the world of the Marvel Comics Group, God doesn’t look like Charlton Heston. He looks like Stan Lee.

Smilin’ Stan Lee In this 1970 photo taken by David E. Leach to accompany Robin Green’s essay, Stan poses in front of his office wall of upcoming Marvel covers. Rolling Stone’s production department added an image of a pint-size Spider-Man standing on his upraised right hand, but we’ve spared you that. [© Estate of David E. Leach; with permission of Jean Caccicedo.] One landmark cover seen on that wall, and printed larger at left, is that of Amazing Spider-Man #96 (May 1971), which would hit the nation’s newsstands circa February. Art by Gil Kane, reportedly from a layout by Marie Severin. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Face Front!!! You’re On The Winning Team!

Kirby had been with Marvel since the beginning. Gil Kane said in an interview in Alter Ego that Jack and Stan had painted themselves into a corner by converting everything at Marvel into the same model, and now everybody’s losing interest in that model. Well, Stan’s alone in the corner, still Facing Front and smiling, but a little down sometimes. The day of the interview, Stan was in a good mood, though, speaking with exclamation points at the end of every sentence even though he had a cold and his sinus trouble was acting up. I asked him where he’d like to sit and be said, “You do what’s best for you! Have a sourball! You’re my guest!” We talked for a while, then played back the tape recorder to see if we were picking everything up, and Stan said, “You know, that sounds so icky, I wouldn’t like me if I met me and I sounded like that. I’ve gotta try to sound more rugged.” I asked Stan if his personal life was a lot different from his life as a comic book editor, like if his wife and daughter were into comic books. “I don’t think my daughter has ever read a comic book in her life, and I doubt that my wife has. They get very bored if I even discuss the subject. All they want is the paycheck every week. Sometimes I think that’s all I want. Actually, I don’t know where one life ends and the other begins, ’cause I really work seven days a week. I come to the office two days a week to do my editing and talk to people, and at home I do my writing and talk to people on the phone. Sunday, Sunday night, Saturday, Monday, everything. That’s one thing I don’t like about my job. There isn’t enough time to spend with people. Being a writer is the loneliest… “But anyway, I think this is what has held my marriage together. I’ve got the greatest wife in the world. I’m absolutely crazy about her and every time I see her or have a date with her, it’s like a treat, it’s like I’m stealing time away from work and nobody knows it. ’Cause I got a story to write, but I say, ‘Come on, let’s go out to dinner, I’ll finish it when I get back.’ So it’s a few precious stolen hours, and maybe if I had a regular job, I’d get tired of going out every night.” Stan is devoting his life to convincing people they shouldn’t condemn the comic book field. He thinks he can do a lot of good with those books. “You know I’m very square and preachy sometimes, but the more I realize that people are to some degree affected by what we write, the more I’m aware of the influence we have, the more I worry about what I write. I don’t want to be misunderstood. I don’t want to send one kid off on the wrong road. I never try to say to the reader, this is the way it should be, ’cause I feel who am I to say it? “I think the only message I have ever tried to get across is, for Christsake, don’t be bigoted. Don’t be intolerant. If you’re a radical, don’t think that all of the conservatives have horns. Just like if you’re a John Bircher, don’t think that every radical wants to blow up the nation and rape your daughter. “Maybe I sound like a Pollyanna, but I think most people want the same thing. They want to live a happy family life, they want to be at peace, they want no physical violence, nobody to hurt them, and they want the good things that life has to offer. But I think everybody sees us reaching that nirvana by a different path. “And I think one of the terrible things in the world is that we are so inclined to think in black and white, hero and villain, good and bad. If you don’t agree with me, I’ve got to destroy you. If we could only learn that the world is big enough for all of us. For a guy who wants to wear his hair long, and a guy who wants to be a

“Doc Doom!” That’s what the startled Thing blurts when he suddenly confronts the Master of Latveria in Fantastic Four #100 (July 1970)—although this Victor von Doom is really just a visual construct from The Mad Thinker and The Puppet Master. So why print it here? Well, this was the last page Jack Kirby penciled of his most famous villainous co-creation before he departed Marvel. By the time that issue had gone on sale, he had informed Stan he was splitting for DC. Script by Stan Lee, inks by Joe Sinnott. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

skinhead. Neither of ‘em has to be bad. “I try not to make my villains all bad. Like, Dr. Doom is a lovable villain. He thinks of himself as a guy who wants to rule the world ’cause he thinks he can do a better job than anyone else. And he is amazed that people try to stop him. There’s no law against wanting to take over the world. You can be arrested for being a litterbug, but you’re not breaking the law if you try to take over mankind. “I think I’ve done pretty well, ’cause we’ve gotten so many letters from parents and kids. I got one letter last year, a Christmas card that said, ‘You don’t know me, but my son has been so influenced by your books over the years. He’s a wonderful boy, the class valedictorian last year, and I just want to tell you that I think his father and I and you have done a good job of rearing him.’ And I get so much mail like that. Very often I get letters from, of all things, ministers, preachers saying, ‘I used a few pages from your Silver Surfer, Avengers, Captain America as the basis for a sermon’!”

1971 Article By Robin Green

Stan is under contract to Magazine Management, and his job is to produce comic books that will make them money. Readers think of Stan as such an idealist; they are shocked to learn that money is a consideration. He had just gotten a letter that morning that said, “I’ll never read another comic book, and screw you, Stan. We always thought that money didn’t mean that much to you, and if you drop The Silver Surfer because of money, it means you’ve been fooling us just like everybody else has, and up yours.” Stan said he wanted to sit down and write the guy, but there was no return address. He wanted to tell the kid that if they didn’t make money, the comic book department would be closed down, and then they wouldn’t be able to do any good at all. “The other day the station manager of a radio station, a long-haired kid, but a nice kid, told me, ‘You know it’s a funny thing, Stan. Most of the kids I know my age [he was in his early 20s], we don’t believe anything we read in Time or Newsweek or any of that junk, but we believe what we read in Marvel Comics.’ Maybe what the world needs is truth, even more than love. “I have a theory about love. I started thinking about it the other day, and the more I think about it, the more I think about it. I wonder if we are wrong in stressing love, because we’ve tried love for about 2000 years and it seems not to have worked. And it’s just possible that hate is just as strong an emotion within the human condition. Why not learn how to live with hate? Let us not try to drive hate out of existence, maybe it’s impossible. Maybe we should be saying, look, to be truthful, we all have hate. But once we accept the fact that hate is as strong and as everlasting and as all-pervading an influence as love, let us learn how to live with it, to direct it into useful channels.” Stan thinks of himself as the world’s most anonymous celebrity, even though his books sell around 60 million copies a year. The people who read the comics know of him, and the people where he’s lectured, but most people have never heard of Stan Lee. He is always surprised to find that the disc jockeys and radio personalities who interview him are fans of his. One fan of his is Federico Fellini. He told me of the time Fellini had come to see him. The switchboard operator had told him, “Federico Fellini is here to see you,” and he said, “Yeah, and tell him Santa Claus is in here.” Stan thought it was a gag. “But in he walked with an entourage. He had a translator, and his manager, and a friend of his, the guy who makes Strega Liqueurs, and I was so thrilled, and I figured I didn’t know what he was doing here, but it will give me a chance to talk to him and ask him a million questions. I didn’t have a chance to ask him one thing. He spent two hours interviewing me! Through his translator, asking me where do you get your ideas, how long have you been doing it. And I said about a dozen times, ‘This is insane. I’m with the most famous director in the world. Don’t talk about me. I wanna talk about you!’ It was intensely flattering, but I was embarrassed. It was like a scene from one of his movies. Nutty. He was interested in these books, he’s a fan of these books. It turned out that he started out doing comics in Italy. He recognizes the similarity of techniques between comics and motion pictures.” Now Stan is working on a screenplay with Alain Resnais. “He’s one of my very best friends, through the comics. He’s a fan of Marvel’s. He came up here once, same thing: ‘I want to meet you.’ With a tape recorder and a camera. We got to talking and he told me he learned to read and write English mainly through Marvel comic books. He’s been reading them for years and he knows these stories better than I do. He’s one of those fans that spot my mistakes. He’ll say, ‘Stan, don’t you remember, Red Skull can’t do what you said, because three years ago you had him say he couldn’t

Can’t Stop The Rant! “I am a housewife with an infinite capacity for righteous indignation!” So went a “letter” quoted in a fake “letters page” of The Harvard Lampoon’s 1969 parody of Time magazine—and some comicbook readers, not unlike many of today’s Internet trolls, have indeed often seemed to possess that same bottomless pit of self-centered ire and outrage. Like the full-ofhimself nut who faulted Marvel for canceling the Silver Surfer title because it wasn’t making a profit! Stan Lee and publisher Martin Goodman had, of course, tried to save the title by shrinking it from 68 pages for a quarter to a 36-pager for 15¢—then by handing the artistic reins from John Buscema back to Jack Kirby, whose original notion the Surfer had been. Hey, maybe Marvel should’ve just mailed the bill for its financial loss to the wrathful letter-scribe quoted by Stan in this article; surely he (or she) would’ve been happy to write out a check for those probable thousands of dollars. The splash of The Silver Surfer #18 (Sept. 1970), by Lee & Kirby, was inked by Herb Trimpe. Thanks to Barry Pearl. [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

do that.’ He’s one of the sweetest guys, we double-dated together.” What does Stan think of himself? “Well, I think I’m pretty dull—no, I don’t think that. I think of myself as a communicator. It seems to me the most important thing in the world is communication. Take the President of the United States. I often think that what we should elect is not a politician but a communicator. I think what the world needs is somebody who can talk to other people and can explain things so they’ll understand, and sort of give people faith in themselves and in their fellow man. I think that what we’re suffering from today is that nobody believes anybody else. What happens is we have become so divisive, we only believe ourselves and people exactly like us. “I’m not a hippie, I’m not a conservative, I don’t know what

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the hell I am, but I don’t think labels are that important, because, boy, I’ll tell you, I’ve been with guys whose hair is down to their ankles and would scare anybody, they just looked so weird, and they were the greatest guys in the world. And some of my friends are real establishment people. One of my best friends is the chairman of the board of one of the most respectable companies in the world and he’s the greatest guy living. And I just don’t think it matters what kind of philosophy you have as long as you’re a good guy within that philosophy. I belong to all worlds, am comfortable in all worlds.” When it came time to take some pictures, Stan went over to the mirror to spiff up a bit. “My hair isn’t even on straight!” he said. Stan Lee used to be Stanley Lieber, and Stanley Lieber is bald. But Stanley Lieber hardly exists any more. Stan said he doesn’t even recognize him in the mirror. He said his daughter doesn’t allow him to go out unless he looks like Stan Lee.

The Twin Pillars Of Marvel Another pic of Stan taken for Rolling Stone—though this one didn’t wind up in the issue. Everybody sure liked posing with that Spidey poster, didn’t they? Guess they all knew which super-hero was bringing in the big bucks for Marvel! By which we mean the web-spinner—but that description would’ve pretty much fit Stan, as well. [© Estate of David E. Leach; by permission of Jean Caccicedo.]

“You know how I got this beard? I went to a Christmas party about three years ago, and when I left I was feeling no pain. I jumped up in the air to click my heels and I fell down and broke my ankle. I was in bed for two weeks, so I didn’t shave, and when I got out of bed and went to get a razor, my wife grabbed one arm and my daughter got the other arm and they said if you shave that off we’re through with you! You’re suddenly glamorous!”

Stanley Lieber turned 48 last December. Stan Lee spent the day writing Spider-Man.

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KIRBY & LEE: STUF’ SAID! (JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR #75)

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THE 1990s was the decade when Marvel Comics sold 8.1 million copies of an issue of the X-MEN, saw its superstar creators form their own company, cloned SPIDER-MAN, and went bankrupt. The 1990s was when SUPERMAN died, BATMAN had his back broken, and the runaway success of Neil Gaiman’s SANDMAN led to DC Comics’ VERTIGO line of adult comic books. It was the decade of gimmicky covers, skimpy costumes, and mega-crossovers. But most of all, the 1990s was the decade when companies like IMAGE, VALIANT and MALIBU published million-selling comic books before the industry experienced a shocking and rapid collapse.

Is It Live Or Memorex? (Above left:) Dan Adkins from Strange Tales #162 (Nov. 1968). (Above right:) Steve Ditko from Strange Tales #120 (May 1964). [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] (Right:) Adkins from Strange Tales #161 (Oct. 1967) and (far right) Ditko from Strange Tales #135 (Aug. 1965). [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.] (Left:) Adkins from Strange Tales #161 (Oct. 1967). (Inset:) Ditko from Strange Tales #132 (May 1965). [TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt!

“Dan Adkins & The Incredible Tracing Machine!” Revisited (Part 1) by Michael T. Gilbert

Dan Adkins from the 1975

Marvel Con ecently, I was going through a program book. collection of ’60s-era letters Peter Morisi sent to his friend Glen Johnson. (Those of you who picked up copies of Alter Ego #148-150 know all about that.) One 1968 note made reference to a fanzine article that accused comicbook artist Dan Adkins of swiping art. Morisi, who wrote and drew stories for Charlton, freely admitted to swiping himself on occasion. What follows are his comments on the subject.

Pete Morisi (7/30/1968): “I can’t agree with the Superzine attack on Dan Adkins—I don’t know Dan—but this kind of write-up can cost him his job with Stan Lee, and that’s bad. He’s certainly contributed enough to ‘comics’ by now to be above this kind of attack. Let’s face it, every artist swipes (or has swiped) from other artists:

Fall Guy? Artist Dan Adkins borrowed the baddie’s figure in Tales to Astonish #93 (July 1967) from the cover of Simon & Kirby’s Fighting American #2 (June 1954). [© Marvel Characters, Inc., & Estates of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby, respectively.]

Tuska swiped from Raymond and Caniff. Hogarth swiped from Foster. Barry swiped from Hogarth, Raymond, Raboy, Foster. Raymond swiped from Foster. Williamson swiped from Raymond. Prentice swiped from Raymond. Andriola swiped from Caniff. PAM swiped from Tuska and others. And I could go on, and on, and on, and on. So, why pick on Adkins, and have him labeled a ‘swipe artist’ from here on in. It’s not fair, it’s sensational ‘reporting,’ and can only result in hurting Adkins, and possibly closing the door of communication between the ’zines’ and the various publisher. After all, no publisher is going to feel kindly toward a ‘zine’ that’s going to turn around and ‘blast’ them every so often. Constructive criticism is one thing—but endangering a guy’s job is another. I’ve had artists swipe my stuff, and it doesn’t bother me, so what’s the big deal? Oops, I got carried away—sorry for the speech.”

Pete Morisi in 1974. Thanks to Val Morisi.

Ironically, a few days later, I found another article on the subject, this one from 1970, buried in my fanzine collection.

The main article in the fanzine MCR #4 [Modern Collector’s Review] was a series of heated responses to an article in MCR #3 written by 23-year-old Jim Vadeboncoeur, Jr. In it, Jim stated his disappointment with Adkins’ extensive use of swipes. He then backed up his statement with a fairly comprehensive checklist

detailing dozens of Adkins copies, and what originals were used, and where they first appeared. It was an ambitious undertaking, but poor Jim had no idea what kind of hornet’s nest he was stirring! Responses came in fast and furious, many from young pros like Bernie Wrightson, Mike Kaluta, Jeff Jones, Jan Strand, and Richard Corben—either agreeing with Jim, or defending Dan. It made for a spirited debate about the ethics of swiping. As Jim said in a recent e-mail: “The article made MCR, by the way. If you’ve ever seen MCR 1 & 2, you’d understand what I mean. I’m not positive, but I think that #3 was side-stapled. It was only the infamous article that generated enough interest for him to do a saddle-stitched #4 with ‘Big Name Pro’ letters.” The magazine itself is a fun read, with articles by longtime fan Dwight Decker, then a 16-year-old, art by Robert Kline and Jim Pinkoski, as well as articles by editor John McLaughlin. But the pro letters are the main point of interest. Almost 50 years later, the letters responding to Jim’s article remain relevant—so much so that we thought their comments on the subject were worth revisiting. Of course, one should keep in mind that some of the writers may or may not have different opinions on the subject in 2018 than they did in 1969, when Jim Vadeboncoeur’s first article appeared. At the time, Jim was a young man working as a quality control manager at a scientific firm. In the years since, Jim’s eagle eye has made him one of the leading experts at spotting comic art styles. In the process, he’s contributed to Alter Ego and other publications. He’s also published well-respected magazines and books devoted to the great illustrators of the past.

“Dan Adkins & The Incredible Tracing Machine!” Revisited

Let’s begin with the article in question from MCR #3 in 1969. Then we’ll look at the responses.

Dan Adkins & The Incredible Tracing Machine by Jim Vadeboncoeur Most of your readers familiar with Dan Adkin’s art must Jim Vadeboncoeur, Jr. have noticed a few panels in which a figure or two look in a fairly recent photo. vaguely familiar. You may have even recognized the exact panel from which it was taken. My first experience with Mr. when he told me Adkins’ “borrowings” was in X-Men #34. The first panel on page 1 that he had noticed was a drawing of the Mole Man that I was sure I had seen before. A them, also. What quick check through my Fantastic Four collection showed that the did surprise me was drawing was an exact duplication of the one that Jack Kirby drew for that in response the cover of FF #31. to a rather nastily worded missive My first thought was that it was a joke. Adkins was playing a to Mr. Adkins little game with the fans. Sure, that had to be it. I knew he could have care of Warren drawn another Mole Man if he had wanted to. He just wanted to see Publishing, Jim how many of us were on our toes, right? Well, Mr. Adkins was fast received a midnight becoming one of my favorite artists and I just couldn’t bring myself phone call from to think of him as a “thief.” Unfortunately, mankind has a tendency Guess Who? In an The Real Thing! to delude itself into believing that which corresponds most closely hour-long, New to what they would like to believe. So I, being human, accepted the Here’s the original “Magic Art Reproducer” Jim V. York to California referenced in his article, as advertised in a zillion “joke” theory and continued to enjoy his art. Then came Strange Tales call, Dan Adkins comicbooks! #161. (my ex-idol) freely When I first saw the beauty of “Dr. Strange” by Dan Adkins, admitted the swipes and insisted that all comic artists are forced to I was breathless. At last Stan Lee had found a worthy successor to “borrow” from other artist in order to turn out a sufficient quantity of Steve Ditko. The art was simply fantastic, but on page 6 I discovered quality work. No artist, he claimed, has the time to invent characters, another “joke.” The drawing of Victoria Bentley standing before a do layouts, design panels, position and draw figures, and still produce brazier seemed to be a composite of two panels in Eerie #6, as drawn the quantity of material needed to make a living in the field. by Johnny Craig (pp. 34 & 37). I was bewildered! I couldn’t imagine This must come as a shock to the artists who have worked for why an artist of the caliber of Mr. Adkins would stoop so low. The years in the comics field and never felt this pressure in the extremes drawing was so precise that I have to believe that he was not all that I that Mr. Adkins seems to feel. Artists like Al Williamson may be thought he was (I’m human, remember?). It took Mr. Adkins himself to guilty of being impressed by the style of Alex Raymond, but never in prove me wrong. all of the work he’s done since 1950 (far more than Mr. Adkins has About two years ago I brought up the subject of Adkins’ “jokes” accomplished since 1961) have I ever seen one example of a panel to Jim Pinkoski [MTG NOTE: that he ever borrowed! Jack Kirby has been drawing since cartoonist and assistant editor of the 1939 and still turns out a volume of original art every month MCR fanzine]. It came as no surprise that is larger than Mr. Adkins has ever done in one year.

Doctor! Doctor! (Left:) Reed Crandall drew this operating-room scene for the cover of EC’s MD #1 (April 1955)—itself quite likely swiped from a photo! (Above:) Adkins borrowed the image for a panel featuring Dr. Stephen Strange! From Dr. Strange #169 (June 1968). [© William M. Gaines Agent, Inc., & Marvel Characters, Inc., respectively.]

Frank Frazetta has been influenced by J. Allen St. John and others, but he established his own style very early in his career, and the only instance of “stealing” I have ever encountered is illustrated at the right. [MTG NOTE: Illo not reprinted here.] It is not an actual “steal” when you compare it to the brazen tracings of Mr. Adkins, but more of an interpretation. Hogarth, Manning, Ditko, Morrow, Craig, and the rest of Adkins’ sources have all been drawing far longer than he, and seem to be able to keep up with the “grueling grind” of the comic field without resorting to a “Magic Art Reproducer… EVEN IF YOU CAN’T DRAW A STRAIGHT LINE, you can draw your family, friends, anything from real life—LIKE AN ARTIST… $1.98 on a ten-day free trial.” (It works great for tracing your favorite comic books, too—or so it seems.) So shell out $1.98 and be a real live artist just like Dandy Dan Adkins… but then maybe you won’t be able to sleep nights, either! -End-

Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt!

enough experience in drawing from a model that he can make up the poses himself. Perhaps the editor has instructed the artist to draw in the ‘style’ of Ditko. If the artist accepts this, he also accepts the editor’s judgment that he isn’t as good as Ditko. This means the artist’s own potential will never be realized. Could this artist be as good as a Frazetta or Eisner, yet in his own style? He’ll never know.” Corben makes some valid points. My own opinion of Dan’s swiping comes from a different perspective. As a teenager in the ’60s (and amateur art spotter!), I really got a kick out of Dan’s work—“Dr. Strange” in particular. I loved catching a Simon & Kirby Fighting American panel here, a Reed Crandall EC swipe there, and lots of Ditko, all inked in Dan’s immaculate Wally Wood style. Dan, a former Wood assistant, had learned his lessons well, and more than just inking.

Robot Redux! (Left:) Gray Morrow’s cover for Amazing Stories magazine (June 1965)— and Dan’s version, from Strange Tales #165 (Feb. 1968). [© the respective copyright holders & Marvel Characters, Inc., respectively.]

Ah, young love betrayed! Reading this in 2018, it seems almost akin to a teenager catching his first girlfriend making out with his best pal. Such passion! Such betrayal! But weren’t we all like that in our teens? Of course, today’s comic fans are far more savvy about things like swiping than they were in the more innocent ’60s. As for Jim, he was earnest but not entirely accurate—particularly concerning artists he claimed never swiped. More on that later. Once the article appeared, MCR was swamped with letters, many defending Dan. These letters appeared in MCR (#4) in 1970, the final issue. Let’s begin with a letter from famed Heavy Metal, Warren, and underground cartoonist Richard Corben: “I will be looking forward to the comments on the Dan Adkins article. My views on ‘swiping’ are that you have to draw an object that is unfamiliar to you. Then the swipe material should only be a technical reference. Say you were to draw an ancient Greek soldier; it would be necessary to find material on Greek costume, weapon, even photos of the Greek countryside and buildings. Then the objects lifted from the reference material perspective, lighting, etc. ‘Swiping,’ when done to the extent shown in your article on Dan Adkins, is admitting a basic drawing weakness. Richard Corben Apparently the publishers don’t mind, or back in the day even encourage the practice. “In other fields of commercial art, such ‘swiping,’ when done to the extent shown in your article, would be adequate grounds for a lawsuit. Obviously, a comic book artist that must produce several pages of figure art each day couldn’t afford to pay full time models. But, since he has put himself in their profession, he should have

Wood himself was known to swipe extensively, as he joked in this famous quote: “Never draw anything you can copy, never copy anything you can trace, never trace anything you can cut out and paste up.”

And now let’s see what Corben’s frequent writing partner, Jan Strnad, had to say: “I find it impossible to believe Dan Adkins’ statement that all artists copy other artists. True, even the Romans copied the Greeks, and Nicola Pisano copied the Romans, and Giovanni Pisano copied Nicola Pisano, ad infinitum. But each ‘copy’ was in actuality a reinterJan Strnad pretation, a progression. Sometimes the new product was better than the old, and sometimes worse. But in each case, the new artist did possess scads of his own talent, or else he soon faded into oblivion (providing his copies ever raised him from obscurity). Thus Frank Frazetta can occasionally reinterpret Foster, but Adkins will get nowhere merely copying others.” And now let’s hear from one of the comics’ greatest illustrators, Bernie Wrightson: “I just had the time to read a copy of MCR #3 and thought it, on the whole, was quite good; a couple of things irked me…

Bernie Wrightson as a young artist. Thanks to Joe Vucenic.

“First, the article on Dan Adkins was, in my opinion, in very poor taste. An artist’s methods, whether it be swiping or just plain making things up, is [sic] his business. I admire Dan’s work, and though I’ve never had the pleasure of meeting him, I can well see his reasons and believe he is just and right in what he

“Dan Adkins & The Incredible Tracing Machine!” Revisited

is doing. If I had the volume of material that Dan has, I’d probably swipe just as much, or more, myself. But the important thing is, this is Dan’s business, and not yours; and what’s more, this sort of muckraking will reduce any fanzine to the level of yellow journalism. True, Screen Mirror and the National Inquirer and things of that ilk do seem to sell well, but have you ever seen the dolts that buy this trash? Character assassination is the lowest form of sensationalism, and appeals only to minds of the same level.” Bernie’s work remains some of the finest comic art ever produced. But Bernie was not above swiping on occasion, if it meant creating a better illustration. His late-’70s drawings illustrating Mary Shelly’s Frankenstein were breathtaking, but cartoonist Ronn Sutton (a longtime friend of the late artist) pointed out a couple of examples, where Bernie went to classic artist Gustave Dore for inspiration. Though there are dramatic differences between the two, Wrightson’s original source for at least two of his Frankenstein plates are obvious. Judging from the level of detail Wrightson lavished on the art, the artist clearly wasn’t interested in cutting corners. But Wrightson saw something in Dore’s work that fit in with his own vision, providing a solid template for his own original take. And if it’s good enough for peak Wrightson, it’s hard to argue its value. Of course, sometimes a good thing can be taken too far. While it’s clear that popular Spanish cartoonist Esteban Maroto employs swipes, the example here (also courtesy of Ronn Sutton) goes a bit beyond the usual. Here (see next page) the artist has taken a drawing by James Branch Cabell, done in 1921, and largely traced the main characters. The final result is lovely… but so is the original. Of course, one never knows if Cabell swiped his drawing from some other artist. And speaking of artists, we have a letter from Bernie’s talented Studio mate, Jeff Jones: “Thanks for the copy of MCR #3. It looks as though you’re putting a lot of effort into it. Overall, I thought it was an interesting issue. However, I feel I must comment on one particular article: “Dan Adkins and the Incredible Tracing Machine,” by Jim Vadeboncoeur. “I don’t know what Mr. Vadeboncoeur thought he was trying to accomplish, but I guess he did. The article appeared to be extremely vindictive. It is really nobody’s Jeffrey Jones business what means an artist uses in his work. I am not defending Dan Adkins or anyone else, only their right to do their work their way without being patronized by an irrelevant. If an artist, any artist, thinks he has been wronged or used in any way by some other artist, it is a matter between those two artists and no one else. “This article is in very bad taste, and as an editor, it is a

Classic Swipes! Even the great Bernie Wrightson borrowed images for his Frankenstein book. On the left we see pics by the 19th-century French master Gustave Dore. Bernie’s late-1970s reinterpretations are on the right. [Art on right © Estate of Bernie Wrightson.]

reflection on you. Because a publication of any kind reaches so many people, there is a great amount of what is called Responsible Journalism attached. “When used constructively, fanzines are very worthwhile projects. They can provide a place for many people, creative people, to show their work. A fanzine can link many people together with similar interests. And it can give you, as an editor, a real sense of accomplishment. “Don’t let MCR turn into a scandal sheet.” MCR #4 appeared in 1970. Six years later, the first magazineformat issue of The Comics Journal was published—making similar tell-all articles commonplace. I wonder what the writers thought about those?

Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt!

Michael W. Kaluta in 1967.

Next, we have a third member of The Studio, a legendary group of artists consisting of Bernie Wrightson, Jeff Jones, Mike Kaluta, and Barry Windsor-Smith. Of the four, only Windsor-Smith didn’t weigh in on the letters page. However, Mike Kaluta made up for it with a lengthy letter, which we’ve taken the liberty of excerpting. Kaluta begins talking about the “need for speed” in comics production sometimes necessitating swiping to meet a deadline:

“The Adkins article: If a professional artist gets in a hole, especially a newly pro artist like Dan, working for a very finicky publishing house like Magazine Management Co. [Marvel], he can’t bash out crudely-drawn panels or the company will crush him like an ant, sweep him out the door, and he’ll end up in Greenwich Village, sitting in a doorway begging for dimes. “The second point is this pet list of professional swipers that both you and Jim use, along with a list of artists that don’t swipe. Both lists need one hell of a lot of reconstruction. I won’t name names—if an artist swipes, that’s entirely his business. But Boy! are you guys in for some colossal surprises. I will tell you that not one pro artist I know has not swiped—and the pros I know would make quite an impressive list. “Third Point: Jim gives the impression that Dan, and therefore any artist that swipes, gets some kind of joy out of using other artists’ material—and also that the artist passed off the swipe stuff as his own and is proud of it. This is not the case—with a capital N. Jim needs a brush-up course on the artistic ego. It really hurts to swipe because you know that either you could do just as well if you only had the

time, or you just can’t draw that well. The latter hurts the most. “Point Four: It does not come as a shock to find your work swiped by another artist. Neither do you foam at the mouth, or buy a gun to hunt out the bastard with the intent to shoot him between the eyes. You laugh. Again, it’s the artistic ego. You know you did it first and your ego is flattered to see someone else using your art. I say this from personal experience. The only horror that slyly creeps up is a fear that possibly the fans will think you swiped it from him. Obviously your ego tells you that he’s an inferior artist—he swiped from you, didn’t he? “The only kind of swiping that does offend falls into two categories: a) Idea and Mood swipes. Let’s say somebody looks at Vaughn Bode’s lizard worlds and then goes about building universes and histories, much as Vaughn did, peoples the universe with nitwitted, pitiable sadists, and then sells it as his own. That’s a crime. And, b) Somebody that swipes something from you and obviously does it better than you could ever hope to do. Which makes you wish you never did it in the first place. “Point Five: The ‘Incredible Tracing Machines’ do not sell for $1.98. As a matter of fact, they list in the area of $800. You can actually see one of these beautiful monsters if you ever visit the art studio of National Periodical Publications.” [MTG INSERT: Kaluta was taking Jim’s comments a bit too literally here. Mike is referring to an Artograph (or Opaque Projector), a light-projecting device that enlarges an image so it can be traced on a piece of Bristol board. Jim, I think, was humorously comparing Dan to a human tracing machine. He was also referencing the cheap $1.98 art “Magic Art Reproducer” machines advertised in the back of comics from the ’50s on. Now back to Mr. Kaluta:] “Point Six is not the point of correction; yet it is the saddest point of all, and I will quote Jim’s parenthetical interjections: ‘…(my ex-idol)…’ —Because Dan Adkins swipes? As Jim gets a little older and a little wiser, I hope his condemnation of ‘swipers’ will fall by the wayside. If not, he is going to be hard-pressed to find any idol at all among professional and fan artists. You’ve got to take the bitter with the sweet. Swiping is an institution born of necessity, and the only Neros that will throw a swiping artist to the lions dwell somewhere in fandom.“ That’s all the room we have for this ish. But the debate continues next issue with Marty Greim and Jim Vadeboncoeur himself weighing in. Be here! Till next time…

More Classic Swipes! Here the renowned Spanish artist Esteban Maroto traces part of a 1921 illustration by James Branch Cabell for a 1979 portfolio. [Maroto art © Esteban Maroto.]

in memoriam

Carolyn Kelly

(194x – 2017) “A Lovely Person Left Us…” by Mark Evanier Carolyn Kelly

[The following was published Monday, April 10, 2017, at 6:43 A.M., in Mark’s blog www.newsfromme. com. It is reprinted here by permission, just as it first appeared, except for one or two bracketed date updates, and is © 2017 Mark Evanier. The“194x” date above is because no one could positively tell us the year of Ms. Kelly’s birth.]

and one of her drawings of her father’s immortal characters (in foreground, Pogo, Mamzelle Hepzibah, and Churchy LaFemme; in background, Sarcophagus Macabre and Simple J. Malarkey)—done for the fourth volume of Fantagraphics’ Pogo reprinting. [Art TM & © OGPI.]

truly lovely person left us last night around 10 P.M. Carolyn Kelly was, as many of you know, the daughter of the great cartoonist Walt Kelly, creator of the newspaper strip Pogo. She was also a cartoonist in her own right, and some years after his death, when the strip was revived for a time, she briefly drew her father’s greatest creation. I occasionally said that she was his greatest co-creation, but she thought that was excessive and asked me to stop saying it. Though she dabbled in cartooning and in animation, most of her artistic endeavors were in the area of book design. In 2011, she united those skills with a passionate desire to see her father’s work properly preserved and made available. That was when she began work on the award-winning series from Fantagraphics Books that is reprinting that glorious feature. She not only co-edited and designed the books and painted the covers but, with a devotion that transcended mere editorial conscientiousness, supervised and sometimes personally did the necessary restoration work. On many of the older strips, only imperfect source material was available, so precision surgery had to be done if these books were going to be done right. Carolyn did her part of it right, using one of my computers and my drawing table. She often put long, long hours into just one daily strip to get it the way her dad had originally drawn it. That devotion was one of the reasons the books have not come

out as scheduled. So was the difficulty finding good-enough source material. And yet another was medical: Her original co-editor, Kim Thompson, died of cancer in 2013. By a cruel coincidence, Carolyn was dealing with her own cancer problem at the time. Carolyn would have wanted everyone to know that Gary Groth, Eric Reynolds, and the other folks at Fantagraphics have been sympathetic, understanding, and heroic in taking the blame for a tardiness that was not of their making. Volume Four will be out later this year [2017], and the rest will follow on schedule. She very much wanted the series to be completed, thereby restoring and preserving her father’s magnum opus for all time, and I promised her that will happen. The books won’t be the same without her, but her overall design will endure, and fortunately they have reached the period chronologically in the strip for which there is source material that needs much less restoration. For a long time, Carolyn believed she was winning her battle against breast cancer. This was before it became other kinds of cancer in other body parts. The first diagnosis, after all, was more than twelve years ago and she was still with us… sort of. In the three years preceding last April [2016], she was largely confined to her apartment for weeks at a time, rarely leaving for any non-essential reason.

Ever-lovin’, Blue-eyed In Black-&-White The Pogo daily drawn by Carolyn for June 15, 1992; the script was by her brother, Peter Kelly. Thanks to the Lambiek Comiclopedia website. [TM & © OGPI.]

Last April, though, the pains and tumors reached a state that necessitated her hospitalization. She was there for a month, and then we moved her to a Skilled Nursing Facility, then on to Assisted Living. It was so very sad, and though everything credible was tried—as well as a few incredible things— there didn’t seem to be any way to stop the spread of the disease. The last few weeks in hospice have been particularly ghastly.

In Memoriam

night Carolyn spent at my house, I awoke in the middle of the night, slipped downstairs without waking her, and went to the kitchen for some much-needed juice. As I sipped, I glanced out at the patio where I put out dishes of cat food for the feral felines in the neighborhood. There, feasting on Friskies, was a live possum. It wasn’t wearing a striped shirt like Pogo does, but it was a live possum, the first one I’d ever seen out there. I stood there and actually thought, “Boy, I’m lucky I’m not dating the woman whose father drew Alley Oop.”

I Go Pogo! (Left:) At the 2014 San Diego Comic-Con, Carolyn proudly displays a hot-off-the-press copy of the third volume of Fantagraphics’ Pogo reprint series. (Right:) Carolyn and Mark Evanier, in a selfie taken a few months before her passing. Both photos courtesy of Mark E.

Many of you are aware of the reason I witnessed Carolyn’s struggle, up close and personal. For around twenty years with occasional intervals off, Carolyn was the woman in my life. I met her at a Comic-Con International in San Diego. She first attended one year when asked to accept the Hall of Fame Award for her father. She returned the following year to see her dear friend Maggie Thompson and to intensify a quest to find out whatever she didn’t know about her father. Because Walt was married three times—Carolyn was born of the first marriage—she missed some sections of his life. Not that father and daughter weren’t close at times. My favorite of all the many Internet arguments in which I’ve been engaged was years ago on a newsgroup about cartoonists. A gent there insisted that Walt Kelly often used flexible-tip pen points on the Pogo strip in the mid-’50s. After checking with Carolyn, I politely informed him on that public forum that he was in error; that Kelly had done all that with a brush. He posted back indignantly, “My source says he used a pen.” I replied, “My source was sitting on his lap when he inked.” Now and then, she really was. Later, after Walt had moved out and divorced her mother, there were periods when he gave Carolyn art lessons, let her stay in his New York apartment, and—always— encouraged her in her career. Still later, as he was dying out here in California, Carolyn—who then lived in New York—traveled west and slept on the floor of his hospital room for weeks, working with Kelly’s third wife, Selby, to care for this man they both loved dearly. That was in 1973, but still, around a quarter-century later after she moved to Los Angeles, Carolyn was trying to learn whatever more there was to learn about him. At one point, Maggie said to her, “You ought to get to know Mark Evanier. He may be able to help you.” That’s how I met her in 1996, and it was not, as they say, love at first sight. Not long before, another “woman in my life” had died—this one unexpectedly and at a much younger age. I really didn’t want to get involved with anyone else just then, if ever… but Carolyn was lovely and funny and charming and very bright and not the kind of lady with whom one could have a casual, short-term relationship. So we were friends, just friends for a time. Then, in 1997, I was hired as the story editor of an animated TV series called Channel Umptee-3 and Carolyn called and asked if I could get her a tryout to work on the show as an artist. I did and she was hired—by someone who didn’t even know I’d arranged her audition. That somehow led to actual dating and… well, you know how things go. If you believe in omens, you may like this one: The first

I wish I could say it was a perfect union, but there were fights and separations, mostly about things that now seem frivolous and silly. I guess they always do after you lose someone you love. The last few years, the quarrels were mostly about matters of medicine and sometimes about trying to get the Pogo books to press. In recent months, it’s been all about the cancer, and it’s been painful in all the ways that pain can affect us. She was one of the most compassionate people I’ve ever encountered; the kind who never met a person in need—even total strangers—without wanting to help them in some way. In fact, one of the things we argued over at times was my feeling that she was putting way too many other people, including me, ahead of her own needs. Carolyn had many, many talents to accompany all that niceness. In addition to cartooning and book design, she would crochet magnificent scarves and hats. Also, she was a superb cook, and it was never a matter of slavishly following someone’s recipe, not even her own. She would invent on the fly, adding in some of this and a lot of that along with a pinch of something or other, all selected and measured on sheer instinct. That meant the final product was always surprising, and when I said, “Hey, this is great. Can you make it again?” her usual answer was that she wasn’t sure what she’d done but would try. The next time, it would not be the same but it would usually be better. There was an innocence of spirit within her and a fascination with every single thing around her. I am the kind of person who goes somewhere to get there. She was the kind who stops to look at everything along the way, say hello to every passing cat or dog, and smell every flower. She also had the greatest smile I’ve ever seen on a human being. It was organic and real with nothing lurking behind it but sheer delight. It was truly a smile you could trust, and it was on a person who, even if she’d lived to 110, would have been dying way too soon. Maybe there’s someone reading this who could resist falling in love with a person like that but I sure couldn’t. I’m going to miss everything about her, even the things that occasionally drove us apart… and what I think I’ll miss most of all is that smile. It was a great smile, a superb smile, the kind of smile that could make you want to spend the rest of your days close by, doing things that would make it appear. Whatever it did, it cheered you greatly because it was—like the person it adorned—absolutely wonderful. I could really use one of those smiles right about now. Mark Evanier is a TV and comics writer of long standing.

Hasen, Gill, Ames, Burnley, and more come alive for me in your pages. It was also good to read and remember dear Rich Morrissey after all these years. Like David, he was enthusiastic and could not be stopped in his search for facts and figures, men and material. My memory of that event is not as accurate as Rich’s, perhaps because he composed his memoir close to the event and I am looking back over many other years, but I especially recall the unforgettable breakfast we had with John and Peggy Broome. They were especially keen about remembering the Good Old Days of the 1930s, the Red influence on our culture, and the number of good men and women who fell for the communist line. We might have continued in that vein but didn’t wish to ignore Rich. This fascinating topic did not interest him all that much, and he was anxious to talk about the comics. Morrissey spoke of my friendship with [Robert] Kanigher, and both John and Peggy perked up. Yes, they had many pleasant memories of RK, one in particular of running into him in a Paris bookstore at midnight. You will remember, Roy, that some of Kanigher’s stories sounded too good, too impossible, to be true. One such was his browsing in a bookstore in Paris he had found open at that ungodly hour, and who did he run across there but Mr. and Mrs. Broome! I commented: “Now, Kanigher, that is quite a story. Is it true?” He smiled like the Cheshire cat and moved along to another matter. Now, all these years later, here were two of the three in question, and they dropped that little bombshell into our lively breakfast gathering.

ne of the few not-headshot photos of myself (i.e., Roy) and/or other Bullpenners that I’ve seen from 1960s Marvel Comics is the one someone snapped of Flo Steinberg and me, probably in late 1965 while I was still wearing a vest to work. (See that photo on p. 2.) So naturally, I was pleased that artist/colorist Shane Foley elected to use that pic as the basis of this issue’s miraculous “maskot” illo. I think Flo would’ve liked Captain Ego. I know he’d have liked her! [Captain Ego TM & © Roy Thomas & Bill Schelly; created by Biljo White; other art © Shane Foley.]

We start off our coverage of Alter Ego #142, whose cover-feature was super-fan David Siegel being interviewed by Richard Arndt about his 1991-2005 attempts to help bring as many surviving Golden Age artists as possible to the San Diego Comic-Con. We begin with Robin Snyder, publisher of the monthly magazine (fanzine? newsletter? not sure how to categorize it, so I won’t try further) The Comics!: Good Evening, Roy, It’s always a pleasure to walk down Memory Lane with you as my guide. This time you bring along two dear friends, Rich Morrissey and David Siegel. Rich and I go way back into the 1970s, and I connected with David in the late ’80s. David had done a superb job, on his own, finding and getting the many artists, editors, and writers to San Diego, and is richly deserving of appreciation. The excellent interview with him brings back memories of those other times and men: Chad [Grothkopf] was one of the most joyous fellows I ever had the pleasure to know and work with. Oh, the plans we made. [Irv] Novick was another extraordinary individual. I remember well flying high with his “Johnny Cloud” and his “Storm,” at sea, was wet as I could have imagined. But I was never able to get him to write about himself in The Comics! Grr. Henry Boltinoff is another one as happy, as optimistic, as energetic, as Chad.

Broome asked about his old friend and wanted to know everything. He gave me his address to pass along to Kanigher. The two of them renewed their friendship and exchanged cards and poetry until John died. RK was very thankful for my putting them together again, and he composed a beautiful tribute to him in our pages. Robin Snyder Thanks for sharing your memories and thoughts with us, Robin. Next up is Jon Berk, a collector and longtime attendee of the SDCC: Dear Roy, Nice article and talk with David Siegel. He is a character. But he did come through with some great artists. As Gary Carter [longtime editor of Comic Book Marketplace] would say: “We are the last generation to know the first generation of comicbook creators.” Reading about the AACC reminds me that my contribution (or lack thereof) to the lexicon was from the AACC and keeping “comicbook” or “comicbooks” a one-word generic reference like “kleenex” or “scotch tape.” I got it done in the Marvel Gerber guides, also, in any reference to comicbooks. Jon Berk You and I and Stan Lee are kindred spirits on the latter point, Jon, as I explained in A/E #150—although, left to my druthers, I’d stick a hyphen in the middle to make it “comic-books.” But I’ve always hated the two-word approach. I don’t think Kleenex and (the two-word) Scotch Tape are quite in the same arena (they’d want to be capitalized as trademarks, y’know), but “comicbook” it is, from here on out, when we’ve got anything to say about it! What—does somebody think we were just kidding about the 95th birthday present we gave to Stan Lee? P.C. Hamerlinck forwarded the following e-mail from A/E and FCA reader Joe Musich: Dear Paul— As a retired high school history teacher and devotee of actual history and one who understands that the discipline discourages

[correspondence, comments, & corrections]

the engaging in a counterfactualistic approach to history, I must say I thoroughly enjoyed issue #201 of FCA’s take on the “What If” fun of a Marvel Captain Marvel crossover. So much for my history discipline. Right away the concept of the article hits me up with pictures of Stan the Man, King Kirby, and C.C. Beck dragging me right into the Marvels’ “What If.” The Aunt May/Uncle Dudley arrangement was enough to carry the entire premise; thank you for the Trumbull picture of the wedding. Now there is a collectible, especially with Dr. Sivana officiating, and the coupling of Billy’s and Peter’s journalistic endeavors. But no, that was not enough! Captain Marvel clicks with The Avengers after rescuing Captain America! In this visual couplet we are reminded of who the real super-hero is. Once again the FCA piece pushes us to consider that other things are possible outside copyright laws with The Human Torch/Captain Marvel team-up from Brazil. These extra-legal blends can allow both creators and readers to explore a range of possibilities. Storytelling needs flexibility like that. [The original] Captain Marvel and his family were gentle, helpful people drawn in an open, welcoming cartoony style, who understand the need to collectively overcome evil. There is a redeemability to even the evil characters in this stable. In today’s world of “mean” super-heroes they are out of place but certainly should not be! There are more grimaces per page in any DC or Marvel comic today than in any number of issues of a Fawcett character. The world needs to again catch up with their kind of characterization of super-beings. Ofttimes the “relevancy” of the early Silver Age Marvel characters gets attention. Is Billy’s or Mary’s or Freddy’s personal struggle any less relevant to the world of our time than Peter Parker’s? I think not, but the manner in which the characters in stories deal with their hurdles certainly is. Tragedy in their personal lives is present, but the early tales leave the characters moving through the difficulties with greater fluidity. In the wedding picture mentioned earlier, Peter, in my opinion, stands to learn more from Billy than the other way around. Joe Musich Next up, something a mite unusual for A/E: a back-and-forth between artist Mark Lewis (who ably handles the cover setups and the like for FCA editor P.C. Hamerlinck) and Michael T. Gilbert, keeper of “Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt.” We’ll start with Mark’s comments—then insert Michael’s in italics—then switch back to Mark, etc…. Hi Roy, The interview about David Siegel’s quest to get Golden Age creators to San Diego Comic-Con was really good, as was the follow-up with Rich Morrissey about John Broome. I recall attending a number of the panels mentioned in the interview. David did a real service to comics fans and fans of comics history with his work, and it’s important that it be recognized. Especially now, at a time when we’ve lost so many creators and the focus of many cons seems to be almost moving away from comics altogether. I hope that, somewhere or other, there are transcripts preserved of those panels, for the benefit of future comics historians. Normally, I enjoy Michael T. Gilbert’s articles. In the one on Fatman the Human Flying Saucer, however, I have some real problems with his characterizing Beck as a “diva” and an “S.O.B.” That phrasing does not at all sit well with me. And I see no inconsistency in Beck presenting himself as a craftsman, yet having a specific idea about how the work is best done if you want a quality job. Ask a good carpenter to do something that he thinks will result in an inferior piece of work, and he may try to talk you out of it. Beck never shied away from presenting his ideas on how comics should be done. And, as the quotes in the article make clear,

A Real Benchmark! Recently, A/E and FCA reader Joe Musich and his grandson Max constructed this “Captain Marvel bench.” Hope it doesn’t get struck by lightning! Thanks to JM.

[Otto] Binder and Beck were used to work in the Golden Age with a bit more give and take than perhaps was considered normal at most Silver Age comics publishers. MTG: In my mind, Mark, a craftsman, such as a carpenter, does the best work he can but understands that the guy paying the bills has the last word. If you can’t convince the boss your way is better, you either do it his (or her) way or you quit. Which is what Beck eventually did at DC. Fair enough. But then he went on to trash his former employer in public, writing vicious anti-DC articles for Inside Comics, The Comics Journal, and his own early-’70s SOB opinion column. He even went one step further, also slamming the Shazam! writers, most of whom were trying their best to honor the old Beck/Binder Captain Marvel tradition. By my definition, at least, someone who quits a job, then slams his former employer while publicly shaming his fellow creators, is a diva. But perhaps I did go a bit far in how I presented it. Truthfully, I’m actually a huge fan of both Beck and Binder. Oh, and as for referring to Beck as an “S.O.B.,” that was my wink to Beck’s own SOB column in the ’70s (incorporated into the Fawcett Collectors of America zine). C.C. defined the acronym as “Some Opinionated Bastards” (rather than its usual meaning), humorously referring to himself and his fellow Fawcett alumni and fans who contributed articles for the magazine. My main complaint with Beck’s articles is that they all basically came down to “My way is the right way!” He never seemed to acknowledge that there might be more than one “right” way. As with the late, great Alex Toth, I frequently agreed with Beck’s basic points but disagreed with the absolutes of their positions. LEWIS: Gilbert alludes to there having been some supposed great behind-the-scenes blowout between Beck and Binder, but gives no real evidence of any blowout in the article…. MTG: Actually, I did. In the fourth paragraph of A/E #141, I quoted no less an authority than A/E’s own P.C. Hamerlinck, who stated: “Will Lieberson was the editor of the first couple of issues before he brought Wendell [Crowley] in on the third one because Beck and Binder weren’t seeing eye-to-eye on the book (according to Beck, which he had relayed to me).” No giant blowout, but creatively they were at odds on Fatman. I actually made a point of indicating Beck and Binder’s mutual

re:

Anything But Boring!

Wayne Boring

admiration. I quoted Binder, in one of his last interviews, in 1974, as saying: “Among artists, Beck was, of course, my favorite…. We sometimes differed sharply over a particular sequence (he would show me the roughs), but we would always come to a compromise.” LEWIS: I also found it something of a leap of logic to say that Wendell Crowley’s letter somehow pointed out Beck’s storytelling skills as lacking in some way. It’s only logical that, if a story is being cut down from three parts to one, there will be elements that have to go, of necessity. The fact that Crowley acknowledges that many of the elements he had to remove might be worth revisiting would if anything seem to suggest that he felt Beck’s ideas actually had quite a bit of worth. Finally, characterizing Fatman as a failure: Perhaps that’s commercially true. But when I look at the book, I see two guys doing something that shows they still had a lot of skill and could still bring a lot of charm to the page, goofy as the book was. It was an experiment, and one I’m very glad to have copies of in my collection. If the book was a failure, most comic creators should be so fortune as to have created such a failure. MTG: I agree, Mark. C.C.’s art was beautifully done, and Otto’s “Fatman” scripts had many brilliant touches. But Binder’s characterization of the main character never gelled, and his plots tended to meander. As I said in issue #142: “In the end, Fatman was a heartfelt, utterly charming failure that seemed to prove the old adage ‘You can’t go home again.’” But I strongly suspect that, even after this Milson misfire, Beck and Bender retained their mutual friendship and respect. LEWIS: In addition, I really enjoyed what John Pierce did for FCA this time, with his creative historical extrapolation of what might have happened with Captain Marvel and The Marvel Family if Marvel Comics had revived them rather than DC.

In Alter Ego #142, Dave Siegel talked about his unsuccessful attempt in 1986 to persuade the San Diego Comic-Con to bring classic “Superman” artist Wayne Boring out as a guest. Responding to this, reader Bob Schuller sent us a copy of a letter he’d received from Boring in ’84, at the time the collector bought the depicted Superman daily comic strip from Mr. B. Thanks, Bob! [Superman strip TM & © DC Comics.]

Doing the cover, I had my own thoughts about this, too, perhaps slightly different from John’s. You [Roy T.] as writer would be the obvious choice. And as much as I’d have liked to see Kirby tackle Captain Marvel again, by that point in time it seemed as if Martin Goodman didn’t like the idea of putting him on lowerprofile, “riskier” books when they could use an artist with a lower page rate. (I think I once read that you wanted to have Kirby take a shot at Conan early on, but Martin nixed the idea for that reason.) My own pick for Marvel Comics’ own Captain Marvel, from the bullpen of that era? Bill Everett. I think it’s like he’d have had the appropriate feel, with just a touch of stylization/cartooniness to his work. Mark Lewis Methinks that Mark and Michael had enough to say on that subject— except to add that I don’t believe it ever really occurred to me that Jack Kirby would have been a good choice to draw Conan the Barbarian, even before he split for DC a few months later—I suspect we’d have found it impossible to keep him from adding too much of his own far-out brand of fantasy—so we’ll pass on to a missive from Richard Pini, husband of Elfquest creator/artist/co-writer Wendy Pini as well as that successful independent comic’s co-writer, editor, and business manager: Hi Roy, Another fine issue, and it was great fun seeing Wendy’s wraparound cover for RBCC #149—those were some days! By way of correction: Jim Van Hise misremembers one element from the early days of the comics distribution wars of the late 1970s-early 1980s. Elfquest, with one lone exception, was always distributed by every outfit that wanted to carry it. In the beginning, those were Bud Plant and Phil Seuling’s Seagate, because they were the only kids on the block. Hal Schuster’s company (which I recall under the name of New Media Irjax) may have carried Elfquest for a few issues; memory is fugitive… but the fact is, New Media never carried our comic exclusively. One issue, Elfquest #7, the exception mentioned above, was distributed exclusively by Seagate, because Phil Seuling was a charming talker and he convinced me, as publisher, that he could do better for Elfquest than all the other half-dozen or so competing companies combined. And lo, I was swayed. The backlash from everyone else, however, was so… colorful that I let Phil knew I couldn’t continue our relationship in that way. He was, understandably, pissed off, and he may have retaliated by not taking Elfquest #8 (again, that memory is hazy). Even if he did, though, he knew he was going to get back on board,

[correspondence, comments, & corrections]

Way Beck When! When, back in A/E, Vol. 3, #11 (Nov. 2001), longtime fan Gary F. Brown wrote about Fatman and a visit with Charles Clarence Beck, one illo we didn’t have the space to use was this negative for an ad that Beck gave to him and his buddy Wayne DeWald. We couldn’t think of a more fitting place to print it, with thanks to Gary and Wayne. [TM & © the respective trademark & copyright holders

because by then Elfquest was far and away the best-selling indy comic on the stands, and Phil knew the value of good sales. Richard Pini Thanks for that clarification, Richard. It’s not only Marvel and DC who published heroes during the Bronze Age, after all! One other note I should add, re a typo on p. 11 of A/E #142: The date of All-Flash #8 was Jan.-Feb. of 1943, not 1948 as printed. And to think that error made it be three proofreaders, especially Ye Editor! Send critiques and critical catcalls to: e-mail: roydann@ntinet.com Roy Thomas 32 Bluebird Trail St. Matthews, SC 29135 The Alter-Ego-Fans e-mail discussion list is still active. Subscribers will learn about future issues of A/E, and often get the much-coveted chance to help Ye Editor acquire much-needed art and photos for future issues (thereby earning themselves a free copy). Just visit http:/groups. yahoo.com/group/alter-ego-fans. Yahoo Groups has deleted its “Add Member” took, so if you find it won’t let you in, please contact genial moderator Chet Cox (at mormonyoyoman@gmail.com and he’ll walk you through it! Meanwhile, over on Facebook, dealer/collector/con expediter John Cimino currently handles what he’s christened The Roy Thomas Appreciation Boards to discuss anything and everything dealing with RT, including this mag, upcoming convention appearances, comments of comics or super-hero movies or whatever, et al. The site is fully interactive (it says here).

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Captain Marvel & The ©opyright ©risis – Part III Fawcett Was Far From The Only Company Confused By U.S. Copyright Law! by Mike Tiefenbacher FCA EDITOR’S INTRO: In our preceding two issues, Mike T. launched his attempt to clarify copyright complexities and trademark tribulations concerning Fawcett Publications, dealing with the disposal and dispersal of both that company’s Marvel Family-related concepts and its non-Shazamic properties circa 1953, from Ibis the Invincible to Hopalong Cassidy. Along the way, he’s traveled the road from Myron Fass’ 1967 android Captain Marvel comic to Marvel Comics’ acquisition of that hero-name—DC’s late-1950s acquisition of the assets of Quality Comics and its early-’70s licensing of the original Captain Marvel and the beginnings of its Shazam! series—how that dovetails (or doesn’t) with Fawcett’s renewing (or not renewing) its various copyrights related to its 1950-53 comicbook issues—and, because his researches led him there, to other companies’ attitudes toward the renewing of its copyrighted comics material.

ormal copyrights usually cover a particular work—a book, a story, a song, a work of art. Where it gets complicated is in the serial aspects of comicbooks.

The difference between a serial and a book is obvious: a book is considered a whole—story, dialogue, characters. A comic with continuing characters? The particular story of an issue or installment of a comic (or a radio or TV series episode) is one copyright, but the situation and the characters in it are another, i.e., the intellectual property copyright. Often, these differences are ignored, and even judges have come to bizarre and contradictory conclusions which have tended to blur them. The difficulty arises when speaking of precedents of copyright, because the recent ruling regarding the status of the Sherlock Holmes franchise differs in many ways from any of the situations outlined in our preceding chapter, despite the fact that many people online would like to see it as a parallel to the Captain Marvel situation. The Holmes case involved the copyright law prior to 1923 (as with Tarzan and John Carter, two other characters who preceded the change in the copyright laws, as mentioned in a previous installment)—a very different circumstance from that of Captain Marvel, who made his debut in the latter part of 1939. There is no question of the public-domain status of most of the original canon of Sherlock Holmes stories, as they were created under an earlier version of the Copyright Act, which didn’t feature a renewal period. What the estate of Arthur Conan Doyle was contending in the lawsuit was that the author’s stories written and published after 1923, properly copyrighted and maintained by Conan Doyle and then by his estate, contributed enough in their content and

More Stars Than There Are In Cement At The TCL Chinese Theatre! By the time of its giant-size 1941 Xmas Comics #1 with its Mac Raboy cover, Fawcett Publications had a stellar lineup of valuable characters, including Captain Marvel, Spy Smasher, Minute Man, Mr. Scarlet, and Bulletman—plus Ibis the Invincible, Golden Arrow, et al.—with Captain Marvel Jr., Mary Marvel, and even the Marvel Bunny soon to come! Thanks to the Grand Comics Database. [Shazam hero & other characters TM & © DC Comics.]

refinement of the Holmes character to affect the entire intellectual property copyright. They maintained that their status as the licensee of the Sherlock Holmes character and oeuvre had been violated by a packager who had originally paid for reprinting rights, then had published a collection of unauthorized new Holmes stories for which he had not. The judge ultimately ruled in the defendant’s favor, declaring that the public-domain status of the earlier Holmes stories had not been changed by any subsequent laws, and that the Conan Doyle estate was not due any payment by the packager. As far as I can tell, this has not in any way diminished the estate’s licenses for its movies or TV series (Elementary in the U.S.; Sherlock in the UK; the two Robert Downey, Jr., films), with the credits of each still carrying the estate’s notice of authorization. There is still value in the “Estate of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle” name. (In 1975 and 1976, DC and Marvel each published comics starring Sherlock Holmes, both companies believing the character to be in the public domain; each prospective series was shut down when the Conan Doyle estate objected, something that had happened earlier to Charlton concerning its two-issue run in 1955.) Where this differs from comicbooks, other than the then-current copyright law under which they were created, is that Conan Doyle himself was the copyright owner. The creation and writing of the stories were not done as work for hire, as most comicbooks were. As can be seen by the differences in how the current copyright law treats the two classes (e.g., the term of copyright is for the life of the author plus 70 years, rather than a flat 95 years for a work-for-hire copyright), this could alter the

The Sign Of The Three (Top left:) The cover of Charlton’s Sherlock Holmes #1 (Oct. 1955) may have been penciled by Dick Giordano and inked by Vince Alascia. The several “Holmes” stories inside—original yarns rather than adaptations—were drawn by Bill Molno & Vince Alascia; writer unknown. [Art © the respective copyright holders.] (Top right:) Walt Simonson’s cover for DC’s Sherlock Holmes #1 (Sept.-Oct. 1975). The adapted Conan Doyle tales inside—two of them!—were scripted by Dennis O’Neil and drawn by E.R. Cruz. [Art © DC Comics.] (Right:) Ken Barr painted the cover of Marvel Preview #5 (April 1976); inside, scripter Doug Moench and artist Val Mayerik adapted The Hound of the Baskervilles in that issue and the next. Interior art from this two-part black-&-white adaptation was seen in A/E #146. [Art © Marvel Characters, Inc.]

fundamentals of the situation enough to make the Holmes case irrelevant. In addition, the Conan Doyle estate is not a publisher or producer of any of the licensed properties. In all of the above situations, DC is both owner and publisher of the copyrights. Also, although the trademark is now Shazam! (and the overall appearance of the character’s costume and likeness has undergone changes over the years), there is no doubt that DC has properly maintained and endeavored to keep current both the trademark and the copyright. Since 1973, DC has published Shazam! (1973-78), Superman vs. Shazam! (1978), World’s Finest Comics (1978-82), DC Comics Presents (1981-82, 1984), Adventure Comics (1982-83), All-Star Squadron (1984, 1985), Crisis on Infinite Earths (1985), Legends (1986-1987), Shazam! The New Beginning (1987), Justice League (1987), Action Comics Weekly (1988), Shazam! Visits Portland, Oregon in 1943 (1989), War of the Gods (1991), The Shazam! Archives, Vol. 1-4 (1992, 1999, 2002, 2004), The Power of Shazam! (1994-99), Shazam! The Power of Hope (2000), Bizarro Comics (2001), JSA (2001-2005), Shazam! and the Shazam! Family Annual (2002), Just Imagine: Stan Lee’s Shazam! (2002), Day of Vengeance (2005), Superman/Shazam! First Thunder (2005-06), The Shazam Family Archives, Vol. 1 (2006), The Trials of Shazam! (200608), Shazam! The Monster Society of Evil (2007), Outsiders Five of a Kind: Katana/Shazam! (2007), Showcase Presents Shazam! (2007), 52 (2007), Final Crisis: Superman Beyond (2008-09), Billy Batson & The

Magic of Shazam! (2008-10), Shazam!: The Greatest Stories Ever Told (2008), The Power of Shazam! (2010), DC Comics Presents Shazam! (2011), Justice League (2011-16), Young Justice (2012-13), Injustice: Gods among Us (2013-16), Tiny Titans: Return to the Clubhouse (2014), Convergence Shazam! (2015), Multiversity: Thunderworld (2015), Shazam!: A Celebration of 75 Years (2015), Justice League: The Darkseid War – Shazam! (2016), Scooby-Doo Team-Up (2016), and whatever will follow in 2017-18. (Of note is that the Stan Lee issue used the Shazam name but nothing else of the concept, while Trials of Shazam! featured Freddy and not Billy using “Shazam” as his code name.) Add to these a 1974-76 live-action TV series, a 1981-82 cartoon series, and repeated usage in Warner Bros. TV cartoons and made-for-DVD cartoon movies of the past twenty years, and there’s no doubt that, despite their schizophrenic (to be kind) approach to the characters, no one could question the fact that Captain Marvel/Shazam is a current DC character. Intriguingly, the new copyright act also allowed copyright holders the option of registering multiple copyrights in lists rather than single-issue entries. Seemingly, this was limited, for new entries, to issues published in a single year, but it also enabled long-existent copyright holders to reinforce their copyright claims by registering everything they’d ever published in one single listing. Marvel did it a couple of times, movie companies did it, other publishers did it. In 1992, DC Comics did its registering; and for the first time, there was actual recorded proof that they had negotiated the acquisition of the Fawcett copyrights. Though the list has various typos attributable either to DC’s employees or to Copyright Office clerks who had no familiarity with the comics enumerated, the list featured the following: Captain Marvel Adventures #1-180 [sic], Captain Marvel Jr. #1-119, Captain Marvel Story Book #1-4, Captain Marvel Thrill Book #1, Funny Animals #1-91, Hoppy the Marvel Bunny #1-15, The Marvel Family #1-89, Mary Marvel #1-28, Master Comics #1-133, Whiz Comics #2-155, and Wow Comics #1-69, along with the Quality-cum-DC Blackhawk #1-273 (presumably thus including Uncle Sam #1-8), Doll Man #1-47, Heart Throbs #1-146, Plastic Man #1-64, Police Comics #1-127, and Robin Hood Tales #1-14. It erroneously lists Real Western Heroes #70-75, as well as EC’s Fat and Slat #1-4 (while not listing Ed Whelan’s Joke Book Starring Fat and Slat, which DC did publish), the baffling Warlock 5 (an Aircel title with no known DC connection); in addition, Spiral Zone was referred to as Special Zone. The listing skipped many pertinent titles starring Fawcett or Quality characters that DC had used to that point, as if it were compiled by someone doing it by memory, rather than using the available data. Just going by prior and future usage, it would have

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I Think, Therefore, “Shazam!” A quadruple helping of DC’s rendition of the World’s Mightiest Mortal—including a look at his recent Shazamic successor. (Left to right:) Onetime Fawcett artist Kurt Schaffenberger’s cover for Shazam! #31 (Sept.-Oct. 1977) showcased Minute Man—at a time when both were only licensed by DC. Jerry Ordway’s powerful cover for his graphic novel The Power of Shazam! (Jan. 1995) heralded a long-running regular series that would begin the next year. The latest Shazam-related listing in the Grand Comics Database, as this issue of A/E is readied for publication in early 2018, is the hardcover Shazam! The New Beginning 30th Anniversary Deluxe Edition (2017), which reprints 1986-88 material written by Roy & Dann Thomas and drawn mostly by Tom Mandrake. In 2013 DC finally bit the bullet and brought out a super-hero named Shazam rather than Captain Marvel. Art for the trade paperback is by Gary Frank. [TM & © DC Comics.]

made sense to include Fawcett’s All-Hero Comics, America’s Greatest Comics, Bulletman, Crime Smasher, Golden Arrow, Lance O’Casey, Minute-Man, Nickel Comics, Slam-Bang Comics, Special Edition Comics, and Spy Smasher, at the very least—as well as Quality’s The Barker, Buccaneers, Crack Comics, Crack Western, Feature Comics, G.I. Combat, Hit Comics, Ken Shannon, Kid Eternity, Military Comics, Modern Comics, National Comics, Smash Comics and T-Man—if not necessarily The Spirit. (Quality publisher Everett “Busy” Arnold had co-owned the Spirit comicbook-style newspaper strip with Will Eisner; and

his widow Claire Arnold was still listed as its co-owner in the registration of the 1967 Harvey reprints, which seemingly meant that DC was co-owner after its 1957 purchase. But, according to some accounts, Arnold’s contract with Eisner ended when Arnold ceased reprinting Spirit material in Police Comics and The Spirit, allowing Eisner to take complete ownership as early as 1951, when he arranged for Fiction House to publish five issues of reprints from The Spirit Weekly Comic. Eisner reputedly never renewed any of the original copyrights—none are in the copyright books, for sure—counting on his ownership of the intellectual property and the trademark to see him through any future legal questions at a time when there was very little chance that The Spirit would ever be seen again anyway. The fact that the lack of copyright renewal still allowed for full reprinting of all the original stories by DC, several all-new subsequent comics series, a 1987 TV pilot, and a 2008 theatrical movie seems to reinforce the late great Spirit creator’s belief.)

Getting In The Spirit Of Things The cover artist of Fiction House’s The Spirit #5 (1954), the final issue of this otherwise all-reprint series, is unidentified, but it’s definitely someone who caught the, er, spirit of the work of creator Will Eisner far better than most. Note that little Ebony (assuming that’s who that’s supposed to be) has become a Caucasian convert in these late pre-Comics Code days. [TM & © Estate of Will Eisner.]

DC was not finished with the acquisition game. Just prior to launching the mini-series that blew up the original DC universe, Crisis on Infinite Earths, DC’s publisher Jenette Kahn (instigated by the company’s then-vice president, Paul Levitz), as a “present” to DC’s then-managing editor Dick Giordano, purchased the rights to the “action hero” line the latter had developed while editor at Charlton Comics circa 1965-67. The roster of characters included Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, Thunderbolt, Judomaster, Sarge Steel, The Peacemaker, Nightshade, The Question, and the pre-Giordano Son of Vulcan. (Unknown to DC at the time was that Charlton had sold “Peter Cannon – Thunderbolt” to his creator, Pete Morisi, prior to their purchase, though Morisi happily licensed DC’s usage into the ’90s.) Also acquired, for some reason, was the acclaimed one-shot story “Children of Doom” from Charlton Premiere #2. This purchase deal ignored a number of the above characters’ back-up series, such as “The Sentinels,” “Tiffany Sinn,”

anything published from 1964 onward would seem to be covered by common-law copyright as per the 1976 law, which includes all stories starring the characters listed two paragraphs above, except those featuring the original versions of Blue Beetle and Captain Atom— ironically, the two most important of the Charlton characters in terms of subsequent usage.

Superman Was An “Action Hero,” Too! (Left:) The unpublished Dave Gibbons cover of Comics Cavalcade Weekly (1984), a comicbook planned to continue the Charlton “Action Hero” line from the ’60s as if there’d been no lapse in time, written and drawn in large part by the original creative teams. Whether or not cover host Superman would’ve appeared, the title would’ve featured the heroes shown here: Peacemaker, Captain Atom, Sarge Steel, Judomaster, Blue Beetle, Thunderbolt, and The Question. Not shown: Nightshade and Son of Vulcan. Thanks to John Wells. (Right:) Artist Jason Troxwell, who colored the CCW cover, also penciled this amalgamation that he and co-conceiver Mike Tiefenbacher call the “Justice Trust of America,” composed of heroes from several companies related in some way to DC Comics, which DC could’ve folded into a super-hero team: Fawcett’s Mr. Scarlet and Ibis… DC’s own Johnny Quick, Captain Comet, Congorilla, Rex the Wonder Dog with owner Danny Dennis… Charlton’s 1964-65 Blue Beetle… and EC’s late-’40s Moon Girl, whom DC could probably have licensed due to its relationship with EC/Mad publisher (and sometime DC advisor) Bill Gaines. [TM & © DC Comics; Moon Girl TM & © William M. Gaines Agent, Inc.]

“The Prankster,” “The Fightin’ 5,” and “Gunmaster” (the Western analog that had inspired “Judomaster”; it and “Fightin’ 5” had originated under previous Charlton editor Pat Masulli). Also ignored were the features in Charlton Premiere #1 (“Spookman,” “The Shape,” and “The Tyro Team”), whose rights presumably now belong to Roger Broughton, purchaser of the remainder of the Charlton line in 1986, though, as far as I know, none of these except “The Fightin’ 5” and “Gunmaster” have ever reappeared in a Broughton comic). The Charlton heroes were initially slated by DC to appear in Comics Cavalcade Weekly, a brand-new series that would have reunited a number of the original characters with their creative teams of the ‘60s and continued their adventures as if there had been no gap in time. When that plan was determined by higher-ups “Apres Moi, Le Deluge!” to be a commercial non-starter, after at least a The storm that inspired this C.C. couple of issues had been done, other pitches Beck Captain Marvel Adventures for them were solicited, including that of writer cover (#132, May 1952) suggests a Alan Moore, which eventually developed into comparison with the catastrophe Watchmen. None of the Charlton-related plans of back-to-back Hurricanes was launched prior to Crisis, so that series saw Connie (8/12/55) and Diane (8/19/55), which put the city of their DC debut. While the copyrights for Charlton’s original stories were transferred along with the properties themselves, there’s nothing on the books in the Copyright Office, because Charlton apparently considered copyright registration for anything they hadn’t licensed from outside owners as a waste of money. Nonetheless,

Derby, Connecticut, underwater— flooding the Charlton Publishing plant and destroying much of its perishable property, which included purchased content it might otherwise have reprinted from Fawcett, St. John, Mainline, Fox, and Toby. Sigh! Thanks to John Wells. [Shazam hero TM & © DC Comics.]

Blue Beetle had originated in 1939 in Fox Comics’ Mystery Men Comics (which was properly copyrighted) and appeared in 31 issues of that title, 40 issues of Fox’s Blue Beetle (plus an interim 19 issues licensed to Holyoke Comics during a particularly dire period in Fox’s history), seven issues of The Big Three, six issues of All-Top Comics, and various one-shot appearances in other Fox titles, plus a shortlived syndicated comic strip and even, briefly, a radio show. None of those copyrights was renewed. In 1954, Charlton somehow found itself with the Blue Beetle franchise (odd, since ex-Fox employee Robert Farrell had obtained the rights to most other Fox heroes for his Ajax/Farrell comics line of the mid-’50s) and relaunched him with a series of Fox reprints, first in Space Adventures #14 & 15, then in a revived Blue Beetle title in 1955. Charlton even managed an issue of all-original stories with him as policeman Dan Garret before the Derby, Connecticut, flood of 1955 (caused by Hurricanes Connie and Diane) put a temporary halt to their operations, destroying most of their completed issues of many titles (along with the Fawcett material they were reprinting). Blue Beetle returned as an active Charlton title

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Beetle-Mania Precisely what constitutes intellectual property, and what constitutes a trademark, are questions that require someone with more expertise than anyone connected to Alter Ego possesses—including author Mike Tiefenbacher. Case in point: The Blue Beetle. Pictured here, clockwise from above left, are covers featuring incarnations of that long-lived heroic concept from Fox’s Mystery Men Comics #8 (March 1940); Charlton’s Blue Beetle #21 (June 1955), Blue Beetle #4 (Jan. 1965) & Blue Beetle #3 (Oct. 1967); and DC’s Blue Beetle #1 (June 1986) & Blue Beetle #1 (Nov. 2016). Let’s see… seen here are Blue Beetle as The Green Hornet… Blue Beetle as Superman… Blue Beetle as Spider-Man… Blue Beetle as a big blue bug. All represent the same character copyright and trademark; yet, clearly, some of them share virtually nothing but a name. How elastic the legal rules are is undetermined. Art, respectively, by Chuck Cuidera; unknown; Bill Fracchio & Tony Tallarico; Steve Ditko; Paris Cullins & Bruce Patterson; & Scott Kolins. Thanks to John Wells for some of these cover scans. [DC covers TM & © DC Comics; Blue Beetle is a trademark of DC Comics.]

in 1964 (with archaeologist Dan Garrett, now with two “t”s), just in time to ride the wave of super-hero nostalgia in an updated yet recognizable version of the Fox original, who had been an always strange-amalgam of a Superman knock-off sporting a name inspired by The Green Hornet. When Dick Giordano became Charlton’s managing editor in 1966, he canceled Blue Beetle, along with Son of Vulcan, partly due to their quality, but also because he had no love for superpowered heroes; and when he did bring Blue Beetle back due to fan lobbying, he had Steve Ditko create a new version (with inventor Ted Kord bequeathing the code-name by a dying Dan Garrett) sans super-abilities. That version of the character became a DC mainstay

post-Crisis, and a founding member of the new Justice League launched soon after— somehow devolving into comedy relief therein. He would appear regularly through Countdown to Infinite Crisis #1 in 2005, in which he was murdered. He was replaced two years later by one of the vanguards of the new diversity trend in comics replacements of longtime trademarks with minority incarnations (a questionable movement which never allows the new character the dignity of having his/her own original discrete identity), Jaime Reyes. (Confusingly, in the current DC Rebirth incarnation, Ted Kord is alive and retired as Blue Beetle, serving as mentor to Jaime.) Whatever his new appearance and identity, any version of Blue Beetle is protected more by its trademark than by any intellectual property copyright.

Captain Atoms For Peace? The Joe Gill-written, Steve Ditko-drawn “Captain Atom” debuted in Charlton’s Space Adventures #33 (March 1960), just 2½ years before the latter co-created “Spider-Man.” His costume was altered in Captain Atom #84 (Jan. 1967) by Ditko & Rocco Mastroserio. With a new Captain Atom #1 (March 1987—cover by Pat Broderick), DC took over the hero; there have been other incarnations since. Thanks to John Wells. [TM & © DC Comics.]

On the other hand, Captain Atom made his Charlton debut in Space Adventures #33 (1960) and appeared in #33-40 & 42. Reprints of some of those stories were featured in Strange Suspense Stories in 1965, followed by new stories; then the title was renamed Captain Atom in 1966, with a costume change in 1967. That revamped version of the character was the inspiration for the DC version which has appeared ever since.

“The Shield Of The Mighty Is Vilely Cast Away” Among the many incarnations of The Shield have been (ready, set, go—clockwise): The first, in MLJ’s Pep Comics #1 (Jan. 1940), drawn by Irv Novick—a year before the Timely debut of Captain America Comics. [TM & © Archie Comic Publications.] Simon & Kirby’s The Double Life of Private Strong #1 (June 1959) didn’t even call him The Shield on the cover, and Simon negotiated his own copyright on the material. Since then, there’ve occasionally been two versions of The Shield in the MLJ-cum-Archie universe. [TM & © Estate of Joe Simon; The Shield is a trademark of Archie Comic Publications.]

Those Space Adventures “Captain Atom” stories, though, fall into Archie’s The Mighty Crusaders #1 (Nov. 1965) starred The Shield. Cover by Paul Reinman. [Remainder of covers TM & © Archie Comic Publications.] the unprotected category. Oddly Lancelot Strong, The Shield #1 (June 1983) sported a cover by Alan Weiss & John Severin. enough, from its Legend of The Shield #1 (July 1991), with cover by Grant Miehm, was one result inception in the of DC’s “Impact” imprint to handle the MLJ/Archie heroes. 1940s through 1959, The Shield #2 (April 2016), with a Dave Williams cover, was part of Archie’s attempt every Charlton to reimagine the first patriotically garbed super-hero as a woman. indicia listed the standard “© Charlton Comics Group” with the date. From 1959 through 1967 (just in time to include all of the Charlton super-hero issues in question), Charlton, probably in an attempt to save money by having on the inside front covers of its entire line a bloc of unchanging text that wouldn’t need to be altered each and every issue, ceased doing that. The indicia on page 1 of the interior contained the number and date of the issue, while the text-bloc facing it featured the address and other legal information, as well as the phrase “International copyright secured.” Since they weren’t registering anything, that phrase had little meaning save as a warning for potential pirates to lay off; but it’s what they went with till the 1968 issues that reverted to the standard copyright line and a unique indicia for each issue. Some have claimed that this non-traditional phrasing negates their copyright for the 1964-67 issues, but a good copyright lawyer could argue that, in total, each issue fulfilled the common-law copyright requirement of date and notice of copyright, just not all in one sentence. But again, no one has legally contested the ownership of either years later) DC Comics, Blue Beetle or Captain Atom, and speculation on the part would also fall into the of fans remains just that. public-domain category. Oddly enough, the MLJ heroes who have often been the subject Despite multiple of revivals by both the MLJ-descended Archie Comic Publications revivals over the past 55 years, Archie Comics and (licensed from them in the early ‘90s and then again twenty didn’t begin renewing old issues until 1978 (for issues published in

Fawcett Collectors Of America

1984 this was enough for Deluxe Comics’ David Singer to decide that Tower’s characters were in the public domain. He subsequently published five nice-looking issues done by major-league talent—before he was stopped. He had reckoned without two things: the change in copyright law in 1976, negating the requirement of copyright registration, and the fact that John Carbonaro had legally purchased the Tower rights from their owners circa 1979-80 and had published earlier comics featuring the characters under his JC Productions imprint. Carbonaro took Singer to court, and the results of the trial awarded Carbonaro the rights to not only the original Tower material he’d purchased, but all rights to the Singer comics as well. In this case, the fact that Tower had neither registered their copyrights nor seemingly had copyright notices on some of their early issues didn’t trump the fact that ownership was unquestioned. In fact, DC itself actually wound up reprinting both the Tower and Singer T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents under license from Carbonaro in its DC Archives series (2003-10). While this situation is not identical to DC’s with Fawcett’s, Quality’s, or Charlton’s characters, it is the closest I’ve seen. Of course, every trial has a different judge, and precedent only goes so far. A more recent case involves the 1940s Dell superheroes The Owl and Owl Girl. Originally appearing in Dell/Western’s Crackajack Comics and Popular Comics in the early ‘40s before each title became home exclusively to comic strip reprints (and, subsequently, ignored by Western Publishing when it came time to renew the copyrights in the late ‘60s), the pair were revived by Western’s later Gold Key imprint for two one-shot issues in 1967 and 1968. While The Owl remained Nick Terry, Owl Girl got a new identity, but in every other way they were clearly the same characters, and The Owl made his final Gold Key appearance guesting in The Occult Files of Dr. Spektor #22 in 1976. Given the era, even if the copyrights were in any question, they would still fall into the common-law copyright situation of the Charlton and Tower comics. “M” Is For “Mercury”—No, Make That “Moonlighting”! When Western was sold to Random House in 2002, the The 1953-decreed embargo on the Marvel Family heroes remained unbroken until 1972, latter became caretaker of the Dell/Western & Gold right? That’s common belief; but here’s proof that they surreptitiously returned at least Key legacies; and though Random House was certainly once, in 1956! Charlton’s Mysteries of Unexplored Worlds #1 (August 1956) featured a well aware of the various series for which Western had previously printed Fawcett page drawn by C.C. Beck that had somehow survived the renewed the copyrights, short-lived series like The Owl 1955 hurricanes to become that comic’s issue-ending puzzle page (with alterations by Charlton’s production crew)—and darned if the narrators aren’t Mary (as a welder, but were seemingly overlooked. After The Owl was used with her lightning-bolt symbol clearly visible), Junior (turned brunette and wearing by Bill Black in his various Americomics publications, a space helmet), and Cap himself (barely recognizable in his Flash Gordon Halloween Dynamite Comics also revived the original incarnation of outfit)! So now you know: during the hiatus, the Marvel Family were employed as the characters in 2008 in Project Superpowers, and then in quizmasters. (Or should that be Whizmasters?) [© the respective copyright holders; 2013, in a similarly short-lived series, again titled The Owl. Shazam heroes TM & © DC Comics.] Random House, seemingly unbothered by this unpaid usage of characters to whom they could legally claim the 1950), missing their ’40s installments completely, at least according rights, then licensed Dynamite the rights to do three of their other to the copyright renewal records. This places the Golden Age heroes series: Magnus, Robot Fighter; Solar, Man of The Atom; and Turok, such as The Shield, Steel Sterling, Black Hood, The Comet, and The Dinosaur Hunter, also in 2013. Wizard (among many others) in the same boat as the Quality and Fawcett heroes: while the comics they appeared in from the 1940s This differs from the Shazam! situation in that there was no are in the public domain, the MLJ characters themselves (including, clear line of usage for the characters from 1976 to today, and that most importantly, Archie Andrews) have remained in nearly Random House may not even be aware of the fact that they own continuous use from the mid-‘60s through today. them. Interestingly, legally, abandonment of copyrights is only possible if the company or person in question is aware that it (or he) A similar situation existed regarding 1960s publisher Tower is doing so. Comics (whose best-known publication was T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents), because it had neglected to include any copyright at all on “The Captain Marvel ©opyright ©risis” will conclude the first several issues, before actually adding the correct copyright next issue. line! Like Charlton, Tower went without proper registration, and by

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ALTER EGO #155

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KIRBY COLLECTOR #74

THE CRAZY, COOL CUTURE WE GREW UP WITH! LOU FERRIGNO interview, The Phantom in Hollywood, Filmation’s Star Trek cartoon, “How I Met Lon Chaney, Jr.”, goofy comic Zody the Mod Rob, Mego’s rare Elastic Hulk toy, RetroTravel to Mount Airy, NC (the real-life Mayberry), interview with BETTY LYNN (“Thelma Lou” of The Andy Griffith Show), TOM STEWART’s eclectic House of Collectibles, and Mr. Microphone!

HALLOWEEN! Horror-hosts ZACHERLEY, VAMPIRA, SEYMOUR, MARVIN, and new interview with our cover-featured ELVIRA! THE GROOVIE GOOLIES, BEWITCHED, THE ADDAMS FAMILY, and THE MUNSTERS! The long-buried Dinosaur Land amusement park! History of BEN COOPER HALLOWEEN COSTUMES, character lunchboxes, superhero VIEW-MASTERS, SINDY (the British Barbie), and more!

Golden Age artist/writer/editor NORMAN MAURER remembered by his wife JOAN, recalling BIRO’s Crime Does Not Pay, Boy Comics, Daredevil, St. John’s 3-D & THREE STOOGES comics with KUBERT, his THREE STOOGES movies (MOE was his father-inlaw!), and work for Marvel, DC, and others! Plus LARRY IVIE’s 1959 plans for a JUSTICE SOCIETY revival, JOHN BROOME, FCA, MR. MONSTER, BILL SCHELLY and more!

All Time Classic Con continued from #148! Panels on Golden Age (CUIDERA, HASEN, SCHWARTZ [LEW & ALVIN], BOLTINOFF, LAMPERT, GILL, FLESSEL) & Silver Age Marvel, DC, & Gold Key (SEVERIN, SINNOTT, AYERS, DRAKE, ANDERSON, FRADON, SIMONSON, GREEN, BOLLE, THOMAS), plus JOHN BROOME, FCA, MR. MONSTER, & BILL SCHELLY! Unused RON WILSON/CHRIS IVY cover!

FUTUREPAST! Kirby’s “World That Was” from Caveman days to the Wild West, and his “World That’s Here” of Jack’s visions of the future that became reality! TWO COVERS: Bullseye inked by BILL WRAY, and Jack’s unseen Tiger 21 concept art! Plus: interview with ROY THOMAS about Jack, rare Kirby interview, MARK EVANIER moderating the biggest Kirby Tribute Panel of all time, pencil art galleries, and more!

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BACK ISSUE #61: LONGBOX EDITION

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STANDARD-SIZE REPRINT OF SOLD-OUT #61! Covers every all-new ’70s tabloid, with checklist of reprint treasuries. Superman vs. Spider-Man, The Bible, Cap’s Bicentennial Battles, Wizard of Oz, even the PAUL DINI/ALEX ROSS World’s Greatest SuperHeroes editions! With ADAMS, GARCIALOPEZ, GRELL, KIRBY, KUBERT, ROMITA SR., TOTH, and more. ALEX ROSS cover!

DEADLY HANDS ISSUE! Histories of Iron Fist, Master of Kung Fu, Yang, the Bronze Tiger, Hands of the Dragon, NEAL ADAMS’ Armor, Marvel’s Deadly Hands of Kung Fu mag, & Hong Kong Phooey! Plus Muhammad Ali in toons and toys. Featuring JOHN BYRNE, CHRIS CLAREMONT, STEVE ENGLEHART, PAUL GULACY, LARRY HAMA, DOUG MOENCH, DENNY O’NEIL, JIM STARLIN, & others. Classic EARL NOREM cover!

GOLDEN AGE IN BRONZE! ’70s Justice Society revival with two Pro2Pro interviews: All-Star Squadron’s ROY THOMAS, JERRY ORDWAY, and ARVELL JONES (with a bonus RICK HOBERG interview), and The Spectre’s JOHN OSTRANDER and TOM MANDRAKE. Plus: Liberty Legion, Air Wave, Jonni Thunder, Crimson Avenger, and the Spectre revival of ’87! WOOD, COLAN, CONWAY, GIFFEN, GIORDANO, & more!

ARCHIE COMICS IN THE BRONZE AGE! STAN GOLDBERG and GEORGE GLADIR interviews, Archie knock-offs, Archie on TV, histories of Sabrina, That Wilkin Boy, Cheryl Blossom, and Red Circle Comics. With JACK ABEL, JON D’AGOSTINO, DAN DeCARLO, FRANK DOYLE, GRAY MORROW, DAN PARENT, HENRY SCARPELLI, ALEX SEGURA, LOU SCHEIMER, ALEX TOTH, and more! DAN DeCARLO cover.

BRONZE AGE AQUAMAN! Team-ups and merchandise, post-Crisis Aquaman, Aqualad: From Titan to Tempest, Black Manta history, DAVID and MAROTO’s Atlantis Chronicles, the original unseen Aquaman #57, and the unproduced Aquaman animated movie. With APARO, CALAFIORE, MARTIN EGELAND, GIFFEN, GIORDANO, ROBERT LOREN FLEMING, CRAIG HAMILTON, JURGENS, SWAN, and more. ERIC SHANOWER cover!

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TwoMorrows. The Future of Comics History.

BRICKJOURNAL #53

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VIDEO GAME ISSUE! Get ready as LEGO designers TYLER CLITES and SEAN MAYO show you LEGO hacks to twink and juice your creations! Also, see big bad game-inspired models by BARON VON BRUNK, and Pokemon-inspired models by LI LI! Plus: Minifigure customizing from JARED K. BURKS, step-by-step “You Can Build It” instructions by CHRISTOPHER DECK, BrickNerd’s DIY Fan Art, & more!

The legacy and influence of WALLACE WOOD, with a comprehensive essay about Woody’s career, extended interview with Wood assistant RALPH REESE (artist for Marvel’s horror comics, National Lampoon, and underground), a long chat with cover artist HILARY BARTA (Marvel inker, Plastic Man and America’s Best artist with ALAN MOORE), plus our usual columns, features, and the humor of HEMBECK!

Career-spanning discussion with STEVE “THE DUDE” RUDE, as he shares his reallife psychological struggles, the challenges of freelance subsistence, and his creative aspirations. Also: The jungle art of NEAL ADAMS, MARY FLEENER on her forthcoming graphic novel Billie the Bee and her comix career, RICH BUCKLER interview Part Three, Golden Age artist FRANK BORTH, HEMBECK and more!

Fantasy/sci-fi illustrator DONATO GIANCOLA (Game of Thrones) demos his artistic process, GEORGE PRATT (Enemy Ace: War Idyll, Batman: Harvest Breed) discusses his work as comic book artist, illustrator, fine artist, and teacher, Crusty Critic JAMAR NICHOLAS, JERRY ORDWAY’S regular column, and MIKE MANLEY and BRET BLEVINS’ “Comic Art Bootcamp.” Mature Readers Only.

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Remember when Saturday morning television was our domain, and ours alone? When tattoos came from bubble gum packs, Slurpees came in superhero cups, and TV heroes taught us to be nice to each other? Those were the happy days of the Sixties, Seventies, and Eighties—our childhood—and that is the era of TwoMorrows’ newest magazine, covering

#2: Horror-hosts (ZACHERLEY, VAMPIRA, SEYMOUR, MARVIN, and a new ELVIRA interview), GROOVIE GOOLIES, long-buried DINOSAUR LAND amusement park, BEN COOPER HALLOWEEN COSTUMES history, character lunchboxes, superhero VIEW-MASTERS, and more! SHIPS SEPTEMBER 2018! Sea-Monkeys® — then & now Winter 2018 No. 3 $8.95

NEW! He Made Us Believe A Man Can Fly! EXCLUSIVE Interview with

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Aquaman in Animation

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and Seventies! ic Fanzines of the Sixties Fanboys’ Fantast the Oddball World of Scott Shaw! • Andy Mangels • Ernest Farino • and Featuring Martin Pasko

#3: SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE Director RICHARD DONNER interview, IRWIN ALLEN’s sci-fi universe, Saturday morning’s undersea adventures of AQUAMAN, ’60s and ’70s horror/sci-fi zines, Spider-Man and Hulk toilet paper, RetroTravel to METROPOLIS, IL’s Superman Celebration, SEA-MONKEYS®, FUNNY FACE beverages & collectibles, a fortress of Superman and Batman memorabilia, and more! SHIPS DECEMBER 2018! Phone: 919-449-0344 E-mail: store@twomorrows.com Web: www.twomorrows.com

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RETROFAN #1 cover-features an all-new interview with TV’s Incredible Hulk, LOU FERRIGNO, and introduces a quartet of columns by our regular celebrity columnists: MARTIN PASKO’s Pesky Perspective (this issue: The Phantom in Hollywood), ANDY MANGELS’ Retro Saturday Mornings (Filmation’s Star Trek cartoon), ERNEST FARINO’s Retro Fantasmagoria (How I Met the Wolf Man—Lon Chaney, Jr.), and The Oddball World of SCOTT SHAW (the goofy comic book Zody the Mod Rob). Also: Mego’s rare Elastic Hulk toy; RetroTravel to Mount Airy, NC, the real-life Mayberry; an interview with BETTY LYNN, “Thelma Lou” of The Andy Griffith Show; the scarcity of Andy Griffith Show collectibles; a trip inside TOM STEWART’s eclectic House of Collectibles; RetroFan’s Too Much TV Quiz; and a RetroFad shout-out to Mr. Microphone. Edited by Back Issue magazine’s MICHAEL EURY!

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