Comic Book Creator #23 by TwoMorrows Publishing

™

A TwoMorrows Publication

No. 23, Summer 2020

$9.95

ElfQuest and related characters TM & © Warp Graphics, Inc.

All characters TM & © Mark Schultz.

in the USA

82658 00412

Cover art by Eric Powell

Summer 2020 • The Wendy Pini Issue • Number 23

About Our Cover Art and Colors by WENDY PINI

COMICS CHATTER Up Front: The Great Marcos. Michael Aushenker’s appreciation of and interview with the great Tales of the Zombie and digital comic strip artist............... 3 Yakkin’ with Yoe: Part two of our career-spanning talk with the mastermind behind Yoe Books on his eclectic experiences and brushes with the greats............. 6 Incoming: Debating whether R. Crumb is the greatest cartoonist of them all.............. 18 Ten Questions: Darrick Patrick poses some queries to Jimmy Palmiotti...................... 22 The Man Called… Koster: The last (and only?) interview with the Adventure House Press co-publisher and Gil Kane childhood friend & business partner......... 24

ElfQuest TM & © Warp Graphics, Inc.

Comics in the Library: Rich Arndt on illustrated classics on the book shelves........... 28 Hembeck’s Dateline: Our Man Fred on Amazo and other amalgamated baddies....... 29 THE MAIN EVENTS

Above: Wendy Pini goes all old-school for her CBC cover, featuring the ElfQuest gang.

While the series has been collected in hardcover volumes by Dark Horse, Wendy and Richard Pini have made the entire pre-2014 ElfQuest run available for (gulp!) FREE online for all to read, some 36 years’ worth of storyline! www.elfquest.com/read/

Shadows & Sunlight: The Deep Sorrows and Radiant Joys of Wendy Pini. A significant and revealing interview with the amazing comic book creator who shares about her dysfunctional upbringing, salvation through boundless creativity and unquenchable ambition, and fascinating achievements from precocious artistic beginnings to trailblazing cosplay performances as Red Sonja to her lifetime achievement producing 40 years of ElfQuest, as well as so many other engaging projects in between!.......................................................... 32 Starman: WaRP Speed with Richard Pini. A too-short conversation with the co-creator of ElfQuest on life with his wife of almost 50 years, Wendy, and being the Poughkeepsie point man for their company, Warp Graphics, Inc............. 72 BACK MATTER Creators at the Con: A Guinness Book record is captured by Kendall Whitehouse........ 78 Creator’s Creators: Rose Rummel-Eury, CBC’s newest transcriber, tells her story......... 79 Coming Attractions: Scout master Timothy Truman tells all about his storied career.... 79

Don’t STEAL our Digital Editions! C’mon citizen, DO THE RIGHT THING! A Mom & Pop publisher like us needs every sale just to survive! DON’T DOWNLOAD OR READ ILLEGAL COPIES ONLINE!

A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words: Art by Tom Ziuko! We kid you not!.............. 80 Right: A detail of Wendy Pini’s cover for ElfQuest: The Final Quest #24 [Feb. 2018], which contained the grand finale, after 40 freakin’ years, of the journey of the characters in Wendy and Richard’s epic tale.

Comic Book Artist Vol. 1 & 2 are available as digital downloads from twomorrows.com

Buy affordable, legal downloads only at

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& DON’T SHARE THEM WITH FRIENDS OR POST THEM ONLINE. Help us keep producing great publications like this one!

COMIC BOOK CREATOR is a proud joint production of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows

Comic Book Creator ™ is published quarterly (more or less) by TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Dr., Raleigh, NC 27614 USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Jon B. Cooke, editor. John Morrow, publisher. Comic Book Creator editorial offices: P.O. Box 601, West Kingston, RI 02892 USA. E-mail: jonbcooke@aol.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Four-issue subscriptions: $45 US, $67 International, $18 Digital. All characters are © their respective copyright owners. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter ©2020 Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. Comic Book Creator is a TM of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. ISSN 2330-2437. Printed in China. FIRST PRINTING.

This issue is dedicated to the memories of STEVE STILES, VICTOR GORELICK, RUSS COCHRAN, FRANK McLAUGHLIN, ALLEN BELLMAN, BOB ANDELMAN, NICK CUTI, DALE ™

JON B. COOKE Editor & Designer

JOHN MORROW Publisher & Consulting Editor

MICHAEL AUSHENKER Associate Editor

WENDY PINI Cover Artist and Colorist

RICHARD J. ARNDT TOM ZIUKO Contributing Editors

STEVEN THOMPSON STEVEN TICE ROSE RUMMEL-EURY Transcribers

J.D. KING CBC Cartoonist

TOM ZIUKO CBC Colorist Supreme

RONN SUTTON CBC Illustrator

ROB SMENTEK CBC Proofreader

GREG PRESTON KENDALL WHITEHOUSE CBC Convention Photographer

MICHAEL AUSHENKER FRED HEMBECK TOM ZIUKO CBC Columnists To contact CBC, please email jonbcooke@aol.com or snail-mail Comic Book Creator c/o Jon B. Cooke, P.O. Box 601 West Kingston, RI 02892

@CBCMagazine 2

The inspiration of classic interview book Hitchcock/Truffant

the early background of the subject (if Much as I have tried, of all willing) about what might define that the hundreds and hundreds of person and, in making that journey, interviews I have conducted in more and more of the interviewer’s the comics field since 1997, I’ve life experience—my own life—often never came close to matching becomes a part of the conversation. It’s the amazing accomplishment of tricky, I know. I understand that learning French New Wave film director about my life isn’t in the interests François Truffaut with his book of of the reader, but maybe, by asking interviews with Alfred Hitchcock, hitherto unasked questions, by making aptly titled Hitchcock/Truffaut. The human-to-human connections, more of conversations captured in that the subject’s history and motivations are volume are nothing less than revealed. astonishing in that it is a peer-toThis is all a very long-winded way peer back-&-forth revealing so of expressing my appreciation and much about Hitch’s unparalleled admiration for Wendy Pini regarding body of cinematic work. her willingness to talk frankly about At the time the 50-hour tremendously sensitive subjects, interview was conducted including her dysfunctional upbringing. (1962), the Brit movie director Her unguarded demeanor and ease in was experiencing fame and celebself-reflecting was revealing and very rity status as no other film director welcoming as an interviewer and as had ever felt. I still shake my head simply another human being who can in wonderment at his unprecerelate to much of her life. dented status in world culture. Special thanks to Richard Pini, He had his own weekly TV show Wendy’s spouse of nearly a half(and theme!), hardcover and century(!), who has been encouraging paperback book series, and he and supportive at every step along the was at the peak of his abilities as movieway (as well as the world’s number maker, and a wildly successful one to boot. one advocate for Wendy being feaAs the pair go through each one of Hitch’s movies to discuss in detail, what makes the chat so Wendy Pini tured in CBC). Much appreciated, R.P.! by Ronn Sutton In other matters, yours truly has, extraordinary is their mutual respect for one another along with Last Gasp founding publisher and the egalitarian tone. It’s basically one movie aficionado geeking out with another with both laser-focused Ron Turner, edited a trade paperback anthology, Slow Death Zero, a 128-page collection of all-new horror on the material itself, a body of work that remains comics stories about the unfolding climate change among the finest cinema ever made. It’s just so cool. catastrophe we’re experiencing, which includes the Now, I’m not shy about touting my own achievetalents of Richard Corben (teamed with writer Bruce ments and, don’t get me wrong, I am treated with Jones), Rick Veitch, Bryan Talbot, Peter Bagge, Hunt respect by just about everyone I interview, but I have Emerson, Tim Boxell, and many more! All timed for the no illusions about the tremendous effort my interview 50th anniversary of Last Gasp this year, if you’re a fan of subjects put into their work and the level of their respective talent. What I do might be comparatively as underground horror comix, you will most definitely dig industrious in an “elbow grease” sense, but what I do this baby. If you get a copy, tell me what you think. is to study their lives and work. Hell, that’s why I am in Nothing looms as large right now as the coronaconstant awe of these people and am always enthusivirus scourge and I expect the world will be quite difastic about finding out more about their lives and work. ferent by the time you read these words, a place I likely But the interview in this issue, an epic conversation cannot imagine right now. My current situation is being with Wendy Pini, a startlingly original and driven comic in lock-down, though that’s not all that much of a deparbook creator, is, in my experience, a rare example of ture from my usual routine, and I can only hope that two people coming together and relating to one anoth- we have the ability and will to all rise to the occasion er through the parameters of an interview, making a and care for those around us. I worry for the elderly connection, almost evolving into a therapy session! (my mom is 88 this year), who include so many friends My interview style is increasingly different than the from the comics realm. Casa Cooke sends our very best traditional Q&A, as it delves deeper and deeper into wishes and hopes for good health to each one of you.

cbc contributors Michael Aushenker Dark Horse Comics Brent Frankenhoff Clizia Gussoni

Heritage Tony Isabella Brian Kane Larry Koster

Terry Koster Russ Maheras Pablo Marcos Richard Pini

— Ye Crusading Editor jonbcooke@aol.com

Wendy Pini Cory Sedlmeier Rob Smentek Ronn Sutton

Maggie Thompson José Villarrubia Rob Yeremian Craig Yoe

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

CBC Contributing Photographer

Art of the Interview

CRAIN, MORT DRUCKER, CLARE BRETÉCHER, ALICE SCHENKER, MARTY PASKO, RICHARD SALA, and GENE DEITCH

up front

Marcos the Great

Appreciating Pablo Marcos and a chat with the superb Peruvian comics artist by MICHAEL AUSHENKER CBC Associate Editor

Self-portrait © Pablo Marcos. Simon Garth, Zombie, TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Che cover © the respective copyright holder.

In our increasingly divisive world, there may be few positive benefits to being on Facebook these days, but artist Pablo Marcos is one of them. Marcos is among my favorite Facebook friends because, at 83, the revered comic book illustrator—who is currently doing work for Tarzan overlords Edgar Rice Burroughs, Inc.—retains his chops and remains prolific; regularly brightening up my newsfeed with his full-color takes on Conan the Barbarian, Red Sonja, and Batman. The 1970s were a fun and funky time for American super-hero comics, especially at Marvel, and Pablo Marcos— born Pablo Marcos Ortega, in the small town of Laran, Peru (about 112 miles from Lima)—was a big reason for that. Not to be confused with the wave of solid-stock Filipino artists bearing Spanish surnames and filling the pages of Marvel black-&-white magazines, Marcos’ hyper-realistic, naturalistic style of illustration graced such supernatural super-hero tales as Dracula Lives, Monsters Unleashed, Vampire Tales, and, most famously, Tales of the Zombie, in which he drew the tragic adventures of one living dead unfortunate, Simon Garth. Marcos’ first color-comics work in the U.S. was the cover of Marvel’s Giant-Size Dracula #2 [Sept. 1974]. He freelanced for DC Comics, drawing the ultra-cool Frank Robbins’ creation Man-Bat in Detective Comics, and drew random issues of Kamandi, Kobra, Teen Titans, and Secret Society of Super-Villains, all for DC. When he returned to the House of Ideas, his signature was on everything from Marvel Two-in-One to The Avengers to The Mighty Thor.

Marcos is simultaneously a living legend and an underrated penciler and inker. While the Johns—Romita and Buscema—may have been the biggest names in the industry in that era, you had scores of outstanding artists ably filling the brick-and-mortar of the House of Ideas, people such as Gil Kane, Tony DeZuñiga, Rich Buckler, Ross Andru, and certainly, most definitely, without a sliver of doubt, Señor Pablo Marcos. On a personal note that certainly benefited the TwoMorrows reader, when Back Issue editor Michael Eury scrambled to re-jigger his scheduled issue themes following the death of idiosyncratic writer and Howard the Duck creator Steve Gerber, in Sept. 2008, I took on the assignment to write about “Gerber’s Gruesomes”; four series scribed by the idiosyncratic writer featuring Gothic anti-heroes— Man-Thing, Son of Satan, Lilith, and his collaboration with Marcos, Simon Garth, the Zombie. I asked Pablo if he wanted to supply me with an illustration for my article and, in seemingly no time at all, I received four jpegs with current illustrations Marcos had whipped up—including solo and group sketches—pen-&-ink with wash—for my piece. All done in that signature atmospheric style with black-&-white washes that we lovingly remember from his peak Tales of the Zombie magazine work. Generous beyond belief! Many readers may not realize or remember that The Zombie from Tales of the Zombie was, in fact, a creation of Stan Lee and Bill Everett. That’s because this is one of those rare cases—like Frank Miller with Daredevil or Bill Sienkiewicz with Moon Knight—in which an artist other than the original creator took over the creation So, completely as to make it their own and become associated as the character’s definitive artist. That most definitely happened with Pablo Marcos and Simon Garth. However, as you’re about to read, Pablo Marcos is all of that, but alSo, So, much more… Comic Book Creator: How did your family feel about your artistic talents and were they supportive when you wanted to go pro? Pablo Marcos: I don’t think my family realized that I preferred art, because I was in school and it just seemed like I just liked to draw, especially when it came to my homework assignments, on which I did a lot of illustrations. Later on, while still a student, I joined a national newspaper and was assigned to illustrate political caricatures for the paper. Many days I would get in late as I had to go to school early in the morning. This went on for a long time. My parents thought that I had taken the job while I was in school just to make some money. While I was finishing up high school, my father advised me to do whatever possible to be able to attend the university. He alSo, pointed out that a career as an artist did not guarantee success. So, I followed his

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

Above: Pablo Marcos self-portrait from 2015. Please visit www.pablomarcosart. com to see a vast galley of the renowned Peruvian comic book artist’s work. Inset left: Pablo’s painting of his signature character, Simon Garth, the Zombie. Below: Before making an impact in American comics, in the late ’60s and into the ’70s, Pablo Marcos contributed to Estampa, the Sunday magazine supplement of Lima, Peru’s Expreso newspaper. Here is his Oct. 15, 1967, cover art that depicts the violent death of Marxist revolutionary Che that occurred mere days beforehand.

Above: El Inmigrante, an adventure strip that takes place on the U.S./Mexican border was created, written, and drawn by Pablo Marcos, who is actively hoping to find a home for the topical series. Inset right: Pablo cover art for The Mighty World of Marvel #241 [May 11, 1977]. Below: A fave job of Pablo’s, Red Sonja: Monster Isle.

advice and studied economics in college, but I could not imagine my life without my art. I fell in love and got married very young. While finishing up my education, I became a father. I realized that I was able to make more money over a few days as an illustrator then I could as an accountant in a month’s time. I enjoyed working with the paper as a journalistic illustrator and covering sporting events. So, this is when I decided to devote myself to life as an artist, since it was a much more lucrative career path. CBC: At what point in your life did you feel and know that you were going to become a professional comic book artist? Pablo: Well I realized that I had the ability to do sequential narratives. Before I left Peru, I did historical stories about the Incas and other Pre-Colombian cultures. Then, while in Mexico in 1967, I worked on magazines such as Vidas Illustres (Illustrious Lives), Leyendas de America (American Legends), and Epopeyas (Epics), which were among the largest magazines I illustrated for. When I arrived in the United States, I realized that my career would be in the comic book industry. Since coming to the U.S., I was immediately accepted and began working with the largest comic book companies. CBC: You have drawn So, much brilliant work, but what do you consider the highlight work of your career? Pablo: To date, the work I like the most is one of my creations called Ramses. Almost 30 years ago, I did a large painting for the cover of Ramses, I like the way #23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

El Inmigrante TM & © Pablo Marcos. Red Sonja TM & © Red Sonja LLC. The Might World of Marvel, The Hulk TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Planet of the Apes TM & © 20th Century Fox Film Corporation.

it shows the essence of the character. Marvel and DC both wanted to publish it, but it would have been incorporated into their already-existing super-hero line. I did not want to do this to my character, I preferred he be a super-hero of his own, an independent character. Over the years, there have been other companies that were interested in publishing, but there are still things that need to be worked out with my creation, Ramses. CBC: And what do you consider the best collaboration you’ve ever enjoyed with a writer? Pablo: I guess I would have to say Roy Thomas. He and I work well together. He usually sends me the synopsis of an adventure and I get to develop it from there. I really enjoyed working on Red Sonja: Monster Isle, a one-shot issue. CBC: Can you discuss the days when you lived in New Jersey and worked for Warren Publishing? Did you enjoy drawing the horror stuff? What was it like when you were a young artist in the New York City area, and who were some of your best friends—artists and writers we would know— with whom you socialized in those days? Pablo: Though we did not live for long near Newark, New Jersey, in a town called Ivey Hill, of course it impressed me. Still I was very worried about finding work in New York, since I was there with my whole family—four children and a wife. It was terrifying to think about not being able to find work. But, luckily, I got assignments at Warren and I began to draw for Creepy. It felt right and my employers and their readers loved my work. While I was in New York, I had three good friends: [Marvel production manager] Sol Brodsky, [fantasy painter] Boris Vallejo, and [Skywald editor] Allan Hewetson. CBC: Talk a bit about Boris Vallejo, who became your mentor, and what that meant to you. Did you two work together in his studio or just socialize with him? Was it a lifelong drawings partnership and did you remain friends? Pablo: When I first met Boris, he was very helpful with the language and understanding the scripts for the work I did. He was incredibly supportive of my career in New York, and for that I owe much gratitude, since his assistance helped me a great deal professionally. We never worked together, though we really understood one another. But I have not been able to keep in touch with him since he lives in the U.S. and I now reside in Colombia, South America.

All items TM & © Pablo Marcos.

Above: Illustration of Ramses, a Pablo Marcos creation. Right: A whole bunch of Pablo’s creator-owned characters.

CBC: Marvel primarily assigned you some offbeat titles, such as monsters and horror features, as well as sword-&sorcery characters, including Conan. Was this something you preferred and had wanted to do in your career? Or would you have preferred super-hero features instead? Pablo: Sol Brodsky preferred that I work on characters with a lot of muscles, such as Conan, and really give it a scary twist while focusing on the extreme manly physique. As a matter of fact, I still enjoy working with heroes that involve fantasy and horror. Actually, many of my commissioned artwork are within those genre perimeters. And yet I alSo, liked to pencil and ink the super-heroes Marvel and DC assigned me, as well as the inking I did for Marvel in the United Kingdom. I fondly recall the many covers I did on Planet of the Apes. Basically, I feel that I have had many opportunities to work with different genres over the years as a comic book artist and am very content with that. CBC: Please tell me about the Tales of the Zombie and your collaboration with the late Steve Gerber on the Simon Garth feature. How did you guys work together and what kind of a person was he? Pablo: Steve was a great writer. He was alSo, very content with the way I developed the adventures of Simon Garth. We worked together well and had great communication with one another. Many times we revised the characters at the last minute and then I proceeded with some changes to give better impact to the illustration. I only have fond memories of the great person that Steve Gerber was. CBC: Can you give your impressions about working at Atlas/Seaboard and the atmosphere at that short-lived company? And the work you were creating for them? Pablo: Atlas/Seaboard did have a short life and I really did not spend much time there. I did most of my work in my studio at home, but I don’t recall ever having a problem with them. While at Atlas/Seaboard I did the inking for The Brute, and alSo, penciled and inked Ironjaw. CBC: Can you comment on working on Man-Bat for DC? Pablo: I vaguely recall working on that character, and I had very limited time to work on it, So, I asked my good friend Ricardo Villamonte to help me on this assignment.

CBC: You’ve long been associated with Conan, Red Sonja, and other such fantasy work. What are the challenges and the excitement for you when working on those ancient tales, complete with detailed work such as the weaponry, horses, etc. What do you enjoy about this genre? Pablo: This is definitely the type of work I love to do. I enjoy drawing anatomy—the muscles and beautiful women—strange animals… and I really submerge myself into the history and origins of the adventures I illustrate. I really like working on adventure/action features. CBC: By the 1990s, your studio produced Waldman Publishing’s Great Illustrated Classics. Did you enjoy the diversity of adapting these literary classics and were there any in particular that you enjoyed drawing? Pablo: Yes, I illustrated over 50 literary classics for Waldman. The Jungle Book was one of my favorites to work on. CBC: And what about projects such as Babe Ruth? Do such historical projects excite you as an artist? Pablo: Since I began working on adventures, I have illustrated many high-profile athletes. For example, I illustrated many sports legends and immortal Peruvian athletes. While back in my homeland of Peru, in 1967, I had the opportunity to illustrate the death for Che Guevara, the Marxist guerrilla of those times. In 1999, I worked for Soccer Junior Magazines and I illustrated legendary sports figures, amongst those were famous soccer player Pele. While with them, I alSo, worked on Sports Illustrated for Kids on a series called “Legends.” Here I was able to illustrate other historical sports legends, such as Babe Ruth, Muhammad Ali, Joe Namath, and many more. Some of that work can be found in the Soccer Hall of Fame, in upstate New York. CBC: How does today’s comic book marketplace—in this post digital, post Photoshop world— differ from the comics you created in the 1970s? In what ways has the new modes of doing business in comics challenged you? In some ways, do you prefer to work the way you do today? Pablo: The world is an ever-evolving civilization that is continuously changing. Since the caveman era, humanity has changed according to advances in science. Many things have been created due to this evolution, such as electricity, telephone, and now the digital world. Logically, the comic industry has gone through a huge change. The presentation of the comics is increasingly more fascinating. The color spectrum available now is very broad. And this change will continue to occur, and I am not totally opposed to the digital movement. I have seemed to have come to find a balance and incorporating my illustrations into it.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

the road to yoe books

Yakkin’ with Yoe Part two of our chat with the wacky cartoonist and mastermind behind Yoe Books Conducted by JON B. COOKE CBC Editor [For this final segment of the interview, I visited Craig Yoe in his home outside of New York City, where I partook in a pizza dinner with Craig, wife Clizia, and his two youngest kids, Griffin and Gracie. In CBC #20, we learned of Yoe Books publisher Craig Yoe’s early years in fandom, producing his YOEssarrian fanzine, high school experience (attending the art club boasting The Pretenders’ Chrissie Hynde and Dark Horse’s David Scroggy as members), anti-war activism at Akron University, and sudden transformation—“I got zapped, like Captain Marvel’s lightning bolt”—into Born Again Christianity. As self-described “Jesus Freak,” Craig produced a religious underground comic book with ZAP Comix cartoonist and legendary poster artist Rick Griffin. When last we left the conversation, Craig was a prominent leader in the Above: Ye Ed snapped this pic Jesus People movement.—Y.E.]

of Craig Yoe beside a treasured possession, a Joe Shuster original of co-creation Superman.

Below: Craig Yoe is not only an author, historian, editor, and publisher (as well as toy inventor and creative juggernaut) but he’s also a wacky cartoonist! Here’s a 2017 example.

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Superman TM & © DC Comics. Cartoon © Craig Yoe.

Comic Book Creator: How long were you the leader of the church, Craig? Craig Yoe: The hippie church, Jon? I don’t know. I’m not really good on dates. The church evolved from a hippie nightclub into a hippie church. I think the church and the communal houses and Jesus Free Store that helped the poor went on for four or five years. CBC: When were your oldest kids born? Craig: Well, they’re all in their 30s now… I have two very much grown grandchildren. CBC: What are your kids’ names? Craig: We were inspired by the unusual names the Griffins gave their kids, Flavin, Adelia, Miles, and Katy (who was named after Katy Keene). So, Avarelle is my first born, then there’s Valissa, and Donovan. I made up the names Avarelle, and Valissa. But for Donovan I loved the music of the folk singer Donovan—a good hippie! I wanted my son to be a hippie like me and thought this name would help. He’s now a cop! Donovan’s a good cop; and Avarelle, a special ed teacher; and Valissa, a DJ and stylist to the stars; they are all doing great stuff. I deeply love them and I’m immensely proud of them. CBC: You have two little kids now? Craig: Yes, I got divorced,

sadly, but I met my second wife, Clizia, when I was a guest of an Italian comic convention in Lucca, Italy. The convention mounted an exhibit of art from my book, The Art of Mickey Mouse. Clizia and her dad put together the art show. We fell in love, she came to the States, and we got married. We work together on Yoe Books, but our greatest creations are our kids! Griffin just turned nine and Gracie is six. They are the loves of my life and keep me going every day. They are the best things that ever happened to me in my old age! CBC: How many hours do you work a day? Do you work seven days a week? Craig: I was a workaholic before I met Clizia. Italians know how to work hard and they know how to relax. I think she rubbed off a lot on me and I know more how to chill sometimes now. And I rubbed off on her, too, maybe in a bad way, because sometimes we do work a little too much. We put our noses to the grindstone and grind away, but try to have fun with the kids, too. We work at home, which is really fantastic, as you know, so you don’t have to factor in commuting so we see the kids more and they are part of what we are doing. Griffin just edited a recent book, Gorgo vs Konga by Steve Ditko! Nine-year-old comics editor—that’s one for the record books! And Gracie comes up with riddles for my riddle books! She’s funny and I’m working on a graphic novel of her material! Griffin and Gracie created comic books of their own and sold them at Mike Carbonaro’s Big Apple con next to Clizia and my books—and they outsold us! Yay! We all get a lot done. People say, “How do you accomplish so much?” Mainly I think it’s because we don’t have a TV. I think that has a lot to do with it! CBC: [Looks around the living room] You don’t have a TV! Craig: I do get sucked into the internet and Facebook, but that’s also a part of my work, too: keeping in touch with other comic fans and collectors who help us on our projects and talking about our books and making new friends and keeping the old! CBC: What happened with the church? Craig: Well, it had a sad ending. I began to realize in my mind that Christianity and the scriptures talked strongly about helping the poor and disaffected, and beating swords into plowshares, and loving your enemy. And Christ—the first person he saw was a woman, his mother, Mary, and the last people he saw at the cross were women, and the first people who were at the empty tomb were women—I really felt that part of his mission was to empower women. So, I started sharing some of these thoughts in my sermons: being against war, the importance of women being strong and being treated equally, and the God-ordained mission of helping the poor and prisoners. The helping the needy part got a lot of support in my church. We had a free store where we gave away food and clothing to the people in our inner-city neighborhood. But some of the other things like being anti-war and Christian feminism, didn’t sit well with some of the people in our church. We had a big, heartbreaking split. It didn’t end with a whimper; it ended with a bang. The church was decimated and we all went off to do our own things. CBC: Did you stay in the same place?

Photo © the respective copyright holder. Yoe Books logo TM & © Craig Yoe.

Craig: Yeah, I stayed in Akron for a while and worked as an artist doing things like grocery store ads. A lot of grocery store ads in newspapers used to be done all by hand. They came from the tradition of the hand-painted signs that hung in the grocery store windows. I’m fascinated by sign painting because I then became involved in that tradition, and, again, Rick did such stunning lettering also, because a lot of early cartoonists started as sign painters. CBC: Ever see Justin Green’s book on sign painting? Craig: Oh, I love Justin Green’s book, but there was a lot of earlier stuff, too! Eugene “Zim” Zimmerman did sign painting. Winsor McCay used to paint signs for circuses and all. Rudy Palais was a sign painter. There were different schools for sign painting back in the day. Detroit had one of the bigger ones. Back then, artists didn’t have computers and access to fonts. There was lead type for newspapers, but if you wanted a sign for your billboard or your movie house… the movie companies often didn’t send out posters, so a local sign painter would paint a sign for your movie! If you wanted a sign in your department store, or for the side of your truck, all of these things were painted by hand by incredibly talented craftsmen—and women! A lot of these sign painters got great with the brush but they wanted to maybe do something else and do something with a bigger content and value and payola, so the sign painters with a sense of humor got into cartooning. In their sign making days they would sometimes paint little cartoon characters onto the signs so it was a natural progression. It was intertwined, sign painting and cartooning. It’s an interesting link. CBC: Did you learn that after the fact or was this simultaneous? Craig: Early on, when I was haunting old bookstores and

buying books of cartoons and the history of cartoons and cartoonists… the section right next to it was the art section including commercial art. So, I discovered those books about lettering and did some hand lettering for my underground hippie newspaper. I was always into lettering. CBC: This is very applicable to comics. Craig: Right, Jon! To this day, I’m deeply interested in comics, but I also have a real jones for lettering on its own and the traditional sign painting! CBC: Did you see that there was a career for you with the cartooning at all? Craig: Early on I actually started with the sign painting myself! Here’s my story: When I graduated from high school, I wanted a summer job and saw an ad in the paper for a job in Akron, working in the sewers. The sewers were calling me! CBC: Ed Norton! Craig: Ha! I figured, “Start at the bottom—in the sewers!” Back then, like now, I was a hippie with long hair and the guy in charge of the sewer department looked at me when I showed up and was aghast! Sewers were part of the world of burly construction guys with hard hats—those guys hated long-haired beatnik/peacenik, smelly hippies! I had passed the civil service test, but the sewer boss hadn’t seen me, and, shocked and bewilderedly, he said, “Sit over there and let me figure out what to do with you!” Miraculously, another guy at that instant happened to walk in the door and took one look at me and blurted, “Are you an artist?” I replied, “Yes.” I thought he might hit me with his hard hat. But instead, he asked the sewer boss, “Can I have this guy?” “Yes, take my hippie, please!”

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

Above: In the 1980s, Craig Yoe was hired by Jim Henson (seen here singing with Craig (top left) and friends) as creative director and general manager of The Muppets, where Craig worked on numerable aspects of the beloved characters, including theme parks and television.

Below: The longest gig Craig Yoe has had is as the creative force, along with wife Clizia Gussoni, behind his titular company, Yoe Books, that creates books with IDW, Clover Press, Dark Horse, Simon & Schuster, Abrams, and other publishers.

Above: Craig’s YOEssarian fanzine had progressive angles like this editorial about racism in comics. Below: In the 1970s, Craig worked for religious publishers, including Eerdmans Publishing, where he illustrated a fantasy book series.

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

YOEsarrian TM & © Craig Yoe. The Fantasy Stories of George MacDonald © the respective copyright holder.

concerts, cartoons for Christian youth magazines and slideshows for a Christian psychologist friend who gave seminars. Then I did fairy tale-type art inspired by old illustrators for George MacDonald fantasy stories books for a Midwest religious publisher, Eerdmans. MacDonald influenced C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien. Those books I illustrated are still in print! But it was hard to make money doing illustration in Akron, far from the big markets like New York. I learned about a job in Chicago for David C. Cook, a Christian publisher that was well over 100 years old and actually had done a lot of comics in the ’50s. It’s interesting. The anti-comics criticism actually brought a lot of attention to comics and a lot of non-comics publishing companies and corporations and organizations saw that kids were into them. So they created their own comics, with their own messages. I’m working now on a book called Free Comics, on all the fascinating, astonishing give-away comics. They were published in the millions, and there were over 25,000 different titles. These promotional comics were published by religious concerns, corporations, shoe stores, oil companies, anti-drug organizations, anti-commie groups, the military, civil rights advocates, and all kinds of manufacturers of tractors, TVs, milking machines, meat saws, cigars, and liquor! Instead of horror and crime comics, David C. Cook published religious comics. They’d do comic stories about missionaries and such. They did a comic book version of the Bible, drawn by former Will Eisner Spirit assistant André LeBlanc. I went to work for Cook and became an art director over all their kids’ magazines. CBC: Was the job a good fit? Craig: It was a great fit creatively. CBC: Plus, you were working with juvenile material. Craig: Yep! The publisher had a fascinating history. There were over a dozen magazines and all kinds of posters and other material going through the art department. CBC: Can you remember the big ones? Craig: Well, there was one for young kids called Friends. For Friends, I’d hire artists like John Stanley or Rick Griffin’s wife, Ida Griffin, Denis Kitchen, or Alex Toth… CBC: Get out! Craig: And Joe Kubert. I would hire all these people to do It turned out this new dude ran a one-man art department artwork. for the city of Akron and he wanted an assistant. What does CBC: You just cold-called them? How did you know where an art director for a city do? He makes signs for events, Alex Toth was? road signs, signs and lettering for sides of police cars and Craig: I started calling comic book collector friends of fire trucks, and signs for doors, signs for the soap box derby mine who were in touch with cartoonists. that’s headquartered in Akron. CBC: Joe Kubert knew a lot of people. CBC: That’s kind of an interesting job. Craig: Yeah. I can’t remember the exact lineage, but I Craig: It actually was. There was silk screening, too. I think comic historian Ron Goulart told me how to get in liked that. Between goofing off, I learned a lot. I touch with Kubert, and I asked Kubert if he knew other was literally slated to work not in underground people that would be interested in the work, and so it went. comix like I dreamed, but literally in the underI called Bernie Krigstein. He passed, he was doing his Fine ground—in sewers. But this guy, Dan Kidwell, Art. I called Lynd f*cking Ward! He was on his deathbed saved me from that! and turned me down, but I talked to Lynd f*cking Ward! At the end of the summer, I decided I wanted CBC: Wow! You worked with Alex Toth? to go to college and study art. Dan was disapCraig: I did. pointed. Maybe I made the wrong decision. Dan CBC: How was that? was going to retire in a few years from his nonCraig: Like you would probably imagine: a total disaster! job and then I could not-work as the art director The editors at Cook ruled the roost and art directors were for the city of Akron—to this day I’d have little to politely treated as scum. Art people did what the taskmaster no work, could work on Yoe Books on the city’s word people wanted. These editors were extremely consertime, great benefits, great pay… vative spiritually, artistically, and culturally. When I got on CBC: And a pension, Craig. board the kids’ magazines were dull as dishwater, outdated Craig: And a pension! But I foolishly started visually, conservative, and not very much fun—just the way studying art at the University of Akron. But really, the editors liked it! The reason I got hired was because a I was non-studying because I was actually secretly gay guy in upper management did want the materipretty much majoring in college in anti-war pro- al livelier. He died of AIDS a few years later. testing and spending most of my time organizing CBC: And a lot of the secular school publications were marches and demonstrations. getting more exciting: Pizzazz, Bananas, Dynamite… CBC: The mid-’70s. What happened then? Craig: Yeah, Bananas, edited by jovial Bob Stine, who Craig: After the church broke up, I started went on to became R.L. Stine of Goosebumps. He was a big freelancing drawing posters for Christian rock inspiration to me!

Sunday PIX TM & © David C. Cook. Photo by Sherman Bryce is © the respective copyright holder

CBC: So, this was 1974, 1975, pretty early on. Craig: There were interesting, fun things happening in the kids’ realm, Jon. Anyway, with Alex Toth, he didn’t want anybody telling him what to do or how to do it. He was famous for having raging battles with editors… CBC: Or trashing his own work … Craig: Tearing up the pages he’d just done in some kind of a fit. I’m not saying I know the exact details of his life though I was one of those guys who corresponded with him for a while (before you said something wrong and he’d sh*t-can you). But I’m actually not such a big Toth art fan. Back then, I did appreciate his design-y-ness in his comics. You can’t deny his chops and I thought he’d do good work for Cook. However, the editors didn’t coddle him and had me instruct him to do things like,“Take the smiley face off the sun!” CBC: They were more literal. Craig: They told me, “There are no smiles on suns in reality—that’s a fantasy, we can’t have fantasy in our material, because kids might then think the Bible is a fantasy!” CBC: Only certain supernatural stuff, like a man rising from the dead… [chuckles] I’ll bet that was hilarious. Craig: There were conflicts like that, but Alex Toth, of course, he didn’t suffer fools. The assignment went back and forth and eventually got done, but I didn’t try to use him again. I was sure he’d tell me and my Christian magazines to go to hell if I contacted him again about an assignment! CBC: What did you do with Joe Kubert? Craig: He illustrated for me some scenes of Jesus walking on the water. Beautiful artwork, of course! What a master draftsperson! He had actually done a whole story for Cook years before I got there, a lengthy story for their signature comic book publication, Bible-In-Life PIX. Different magazines were age-graded. My Friends was for really young kids, but there were publications like PIX for kids a little older where they had André LeBlanc illustrating the whole Bible in comic book form, and there were missionary stories and such. Kubert drew a comic book story about a missionary named Helen Keller (not the Helen Keller we normally think of), who went to the jungles of Africa to share the Christian message. This was at the same time Joe was doing “Hawkman,” I believe. He was doing these lush jungle scenes for PIX with this beautiful brushwork. I got the original art to these stories when Cook was cleaning house and it’s stunning! The guy who drew Mandrake, Fred Fredericks, had drawn for Cook. Legendary Golden Age artist Lou Fine did a comics series. I used some of Kubert’s students, like Rick Veitch, maybe Tim Truman, I think. I used Gill Fox, what a great guy, never met anyone that loved comics mire than Gill. It was kind of scary! For a comic, I commissioned Dick Rockwell, who penciled Steve Canyon for Milton Caniff. Dick was Norman Rockwell’s nephew. CBC: I didn’t know that. Craig: I got him to do some stuff. I liked using this gig as an excuse to work with old comics artists who I adored while at the same time using young wacky cartoonists to make the material fresh. CBC: Was it a Protestant publishing company? Craig: It was. CBC: I spent a pleasant, long afternoon today with Joe Sinnott talking about his work in a Catholic comic book, Treasure Chest. Craig: Right! Similar stuff. Bible-in-Life PIX was the Protestant version of Treasure Chest or vice-versa. CBC: Treasure Chest was published every two weeks. Craig: PIX was every week. Protestants for the win! CBC: [Laughs] Every week, Craig? Craig: Treasure Chest was for schools. Bible-in-Life and all the magazines were for Sunday schools, so you had to do 52 issues every year for every single age group and then we did a magazine for adults, too. And there were all kinds of posters, crafts, books… It was a huge operation within a huge two-block, two-story building. The behemoth printing

presses were right there, so you’d go down and do press checks on-site. That was awesome, too, for me, because it was a sensational way to really learn the whole shebang from start to finish. CBC: So, you moved to Chicago? Craig: Yep. CBC: Was the salary good? Craig: No! It was publishing! And it was Christian publishing, which meant they paid total sh*t! [laughter] Not as bad as comic book publishing, though! That would be an affront to God. CBC: [Chuckles] So you were in the big city. Was it fun moving to Chicago? Craig: It was good to get out of Akron. I always say, “Akron is a good place to be from!” With all due respect to my friends who are still there, I can’t see Rubber City as a place to spend your whole life. I think it was good to get out and experience living in new places. We were about an hour away from Chicago. CBC: Did you make the art in the publications better when you were there? Craig: I’d like to think so. That was what I was hired to do. When I first got there, I went through the files of artists whose work the magazine designers could use, and most of the artists in the files were dead! [chuckles] And the few who were living, their work looked dead. I instilled a lot of life and fun and quality, I think. CBC: How long were you there? Craig: I don’t know. Three years…? CBC: Your then-wife, was she working there, too? Craig: No, Janet was at home with [oldest daughter] Avarelle. She did do some freelance work for them. She had terrific artistic skills. CBC: What were her creative skills? Craig: I would draw illustrations and she’d recreate them in plasticine colored clay. I was trying to infuse fun and introduce interesting ways of doing the artwork, so I came up with that idea. Also, I said let’s get some other freelance work doing this stuff to supplement our slave wages at the Christian publisher, so we went to the Chicago Tribune. For them, I would draw caricatures because I had drawn a lot of caricatures in Akron after the church broke up and was looking for ways to make money. I would draw caricatures for office holiday parties, things like that. I was always a workaholic. That’s always a negative term, but I was always intensely motivated to take care of my

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

Above: In Chicago, Craig worked for David C. Cook, a Christian publisher that specializes in Sunday school material, including Bible-in-Life PIX, a weekly eight-page comic book. There Craig worked as art director for their publications line. This sample is from 1957, way before Craig helmed the Cook publications. Below: Craig even enlisted the great Jack Kirby to take his turn depicting the cartoon icon for The Art of Mickey Mouse, the 1991 hit book. This is an unused piece. The published version struck a more heroic pose.

if you couldn’t get your tantrum-throwing snot-nosed kid a Cabbage Patch doll, you could get them Diamond Toy’s Cabbage Patch stickers to maybe shut them up and give you peace! Printing these stickers was like printing money! Sid made so much goddamn money off of Star Wars and then Cabbage Patch! He then got a Disney license. We tried to get a Michael Jackson license and I did a whole pizazzy dog-and-pony show to try to get the King of Pop. Supposedly Michael loved it, but they weren’t doing licenses then. So we designed our own stickers of glittered-gloves, the word “Michael,” sh*t like that. If Sid couldn’t get George Lucas to sign the photo and couldn’t get Michael Jackson to sign the license there were work-a-rounds! Glitter glove stickers! CBC: “By MJ”… That sounds like a great job. Was it? Craig: No! [chuckles] It wasn’t a pleasant place to work at all. CBC: Was it a family-run business? Craig: Yeah. It was pretty hairy. But interesting. I worked on toys and sticker books—better than working in the sewers! And I worked with some stupendous artists in my department. I had become friends with Jay Lynch who I used for David C. Cook mags, so I hired him. He was so incredibly talented and a genius guy. But I eventually got fired. It was very high pressure. I ran into Sid when he came to my booth at a licensing show. He was bragging to his daughter that he gave me my start—but actually he fired my ass! CBC: The job ate you up…? Craig: Yeah, it ate me up with a spoon. And some shyster art director dude came and talked his way into my job and I was booted out. Then that guy was eventually canned. But Jay Lynch stayed and worked for them full-time for, like, a couple of decades and many years after that as a freelancer. CBC: Any connection between the Cabbage Patch and… Craig: Yes! I went to Jay one day and said, “You have connections with Topps. They did Wacky Packages a few years ago. Why don’t we moonlight together and do a parody of Cabbage Patch Kids?” Jay, in his barely audible voice, replied “Well, uh, I don’t know how to tell you this, but I’m already involved in a Cabbage Patch parody for Topps.” So, great minds think alike and ideas float out in the air and smart, talented people like the creators of Garbage Pail Kids pull them out of the air first. And to great success! Later, Jay did sub-contract me to brainstorm some Garbage Pail Kids cards, my daughter Avarelle came up with Jail Bert! But now I have mixed feelings now about properties like that. Having kids these days changes your perspective and the whole thing about bullying… A couple years ago, I threw out all my insult-jokes books I had. Just too negative for my old fart and over-protective dad tastes now. CBC: Into that decade, were you part of the go-go ’80s thing—“work, work, work, make that money”…? Craig: Well, I was working pretty hard. At Diamond Toy I got fired, so I knocked on the door of Marvin Glass and Associates, famous for being the first and largest toy think tank. I got a job as senior designer with them. Marvin Glass was like the movie Big, with Tom Hanks… but I lived it! Your job was to think up toy ideas and make prototypes and sell them to toy companies. I was now really into toys, not just designing packaging for already-made cheapo “rack” toys like Diamond was selling, but really inventing toys! I really got into it and found it fascinating. Glass was where baby boomer toys like giant novelty sunglasses, the plastic chattering teeth, Lite-Brite, Simon, Operation, Rock’em Sock’em Robots, and Mr. Machine were dreamed up! CBC: What is Mr. Machine? Craig: The clear robot where you see the gears move inside as he walks. A classic! CBC: You were hired to have fun? Craig: Sort of. The owners set it up to be fiercely competitive so there was a lot of backstabbing and people stealing

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Garbage Pail Kids TM & © Topps Company, Inc. Cabbage Patch Kids TM & © Original Appalachian Artworks, Inc. Mr. Machine TM & © American Classic Toy, Inc.

This page: At top is a Garbage Pail Kid sticker that could well have been named after our interview subject. Above is an item Craig worked on while at the Diamond Toy Co. At right is one of the marvelous toys developed at Marvin Glass and Associates, a toy think-tank.

family. I’m proud of how hard I would work. But my then wife and I started doing these caricatures for the Sunday Book Section for Chicago Tribune. I think we did Norman Mailer… just a whole bunch. We did Studs Terkel. We went and met him and I did his caricature. Then my wife translated my drawing of Studs into clay and we’d take it down to the Tribune and they’d photograph it and run it in the paper. CBC: He must have loved it! Craig: Yes—and he was sober! As sober as writers get, anyway! But I was getting tired of publishing and struggling financially. I had been doing publishing since starting in my basement with my YOEssarian comics fanzine. I was weary of it then, though now I’m back into publishing. It’s hard to get away from when you have printers’ ink in your blood! I was getting a little tired of publishing and my savings was quickly running out. I saw an ad in the paper for a toy company getting into publishing and looking for an art director. I knew publishing and was into toys and this toy company was doing toys but also wanted to get into publishing. So it was a perfect match! I started working with Diamond Toy Company, which was named after the founder, Sid Diamond. (I don’t know if that’s his real name.) Sid started out by demonstrating and selling light-up yo-yos to people leaving Cubs Stadium night games in the dark. When Sid saw Star Wars, he camped out on George Lucas’s front yard and got the rights to do Star Wars toys and stickers, and things like that. My first day at work, he said, “Before you do anything else, as the new art director, I want you to come into my office and help me with something.” I thought it was going to be some juicy new product. Instead he had an autographed picture he had on the wall of George Lucas that he had gotten as an early licensor. But it wasn’t personally inscribed. He wanted me to write above Lucas signature, “To my good friend, Sid.” [both chuckle] So the signature was authentic, but not the inscription. I needed the job, so I happily made the inscription, “To my very good friend, Sid.” Sid was pleased. CBC: That was in 1977? Craig: Yeah, somewhere around there. Sid then got the Cabbage Patch license, which was crazy. It was huge. People were physically fighting in the aisles of toy stores when shipments of Cabbage Patch dolls came in. You couldn’t get them and your kids were throwing tantrums and crying big tears and kicking you demanding a Cabbage Patch Doll! Sid got the rights to do Cabbage Patch stickers. Besides Cabbage Patch dolls, stickers were a huge fad at the time. So,

Pigtails & Ponytails TM & © Hasbro, Inc. Cool Shades, Airhead TM & © Mattel, Inc.

ideas from each other and drama—like Big! CBC: How were you in all that? Craig: I didn’t like the politics and avoided them. There were five partners who owned the company, but the senior partner, Harry Disko, took a real shine to me. He was the guy that invented Rock’em Sock’em Robots. Harry took real good care of me and shielded me from stuff and rewarded me. Harry made sure I got nice bonuses and raises because he really liked my creativity and me. And I loved him right back. It was a good place to grow creative chops as you were under tremendous pressure to constantly be thinking up new creative ideas every single day—good training for work and life! You really exercised your creative muscles! CBC: By this time, were you less fervent about your faith? Craig: I wouldn’t say less fervent. It changed. I did stop going to church because I was so burned by the experience of my church breaking up and I am still a little smarting about that to this day, decades later. I will never darken the door of a church again. Going to a wedding makes me uncomfortable. My faith became much more of a private thing. And there’s the vile Evangelical Christian Right that doesn’t exactly encourage you to publicly proclaim yourself as a Christian these days. Me, I’m more between a struggling Christian and an agnostic now and maybe, on very dark nights, touching terrifying existentialism. But, I do try my best to keep a candle burning and try my best to do more of the walk and less of the talk. CBC: How did it go with the think tank? Craig: I invented a lot of toys and games! I got six U.S. patents in my name for toy inventions while there. You could work on anything you wanted. You could come up with a game one day or a doll or an action figure the next. I was involved in creating action figures for Hasbro, toys for Mattel, and games for Parker Brothers. I didn’t play games at home, but I was really good at and enjoyed coming up with them. I should still work on some today! I also put a little toy company in Cleveland out of business when they invested in some Ed “Big Daddy” Roth inspired car I came up with. Harry assured me that you weren’t really a toy designer until you put a toy company out of business! CBC: [Laughs] What other toys did you come up with? Craig: The toy world was sexist and still has a lot of sexism but, back then, the rule of thumb was boys play with toys by taking two action figures and knocking them together and girls play by taking a comb and combing a doll’s hair. That was boy’s play and girl’s play in a nutshell! Thinking up creative ideas is often taking two disparate elements and marrying them together. So I thought, “Games and hair play. Why don’t I create a game called Hair Play?” Based on the rules to Old Maid, I came up with a game where you spin a dial and get different colored barrettes. If you got all four pink barrettes for your doll’s hair, you won! But, I learned at Marvin Glass that every good game also has a “screw factor”! You could also spin and you’d get the dreaded hair curler you had to put in your doll’s hair! CBC: Is that a bad thing? [laughter] Craig: Are you kidding me Jon!? Yes, it’s a very bad thing! As long as you had a curler in your doll’s hair, you couldn’t win, just like having the Old Maid card! Luckily Parker Brothers changed the name to Pigtails and Ponytails instead of Hair Play. I also came up with a game called Airhead, which the guy who discovered Operation thought was going to be the next Operation. He was a scout for Mattel. It turned out Mattel did a horrible job manufacturing Airhead. So it didn’t actually physically work and it died a horrible death! So much for the next Operation! I did wacky surreal sunglasses toys. I wanted to call them “POP-Eyes,” but Mattel called them Cool Shades to avoid a lawsuit. I conceived a line of action figures for Hasbro, cops as super-heroes. I remember one time pitching, “Let’s do a line of dinosaurs.” The partners said, “No, don’t work on that. Kids don’t like dinosaurs. Dinosaurs are for museum stores not toy stores.

Work on something else.” CBC: Two weeks later, “Welcome to…” Craig: “Jurassic Park”! Anyway, sometimes you have bad ideas. Sometime you have good ideas that for some reason don’t make it. There are so many reasons brainstorms don’t make it all the way to the top. I sure tried and I have six patents to my name, so I’m proud of that. I think I got some of my inspiration from my dear dad being an inventor for the rubber companies in Akron. I’m sad that he died young and didn’t live to see what I’ve accomplished. I miss my dad! CBC: Well, it wasn’t publishing or comics. Was the pay better in the toy industry? Craig: The pay was better in toys. I crawled out of the dark hole that Christian publishing had put me in. But while I was at Diamond Toy, we did Muppet stickers and sticker books. Jim Henson really liked what I did. When the Muppets were later looking for a creative director, Henson got in touch with me. I said, “I have really interesting work now designing toys but make me an offer I can’t refuse, Jim”—and he did! So I came out to New York and… CBC: He was based there at the Children’s Television Workshop in New York City? Why wasn’t he in L.A.? Craig: I guess, because of Children’s Television Workshop, and he liked New York as his main base. He had homes all over the place, New York, Connecticut, London, Arizona, then later when we hooked up with Disney, in California and Florida. CBC: He was huge! Craig: His huge hands in his little puppets put a lot of dough in his pocket! He deserved every cent because he was doing such beautiful, lovable, and pro-social work. I started working for Jim as a creative director and was involved with a lot of the Muppet licensing because of my toy and publishing background. He made a lot of money with licensing, but his first love was puppetry for TV and movies. He thought of me as a very creative person, I have to say, and liked me a lot. He wanted me to get involved in the film and TV side. I would work with him creating characters and television show ideas and all that kind of stuff, which again, since I had done publishing and toy design, was something new, and that made the job very stimulating to me in addition to Jim being such a great guy! CBC: This was in the ’90s? Did you work on the Dinosaurs TV show? Craig: Yeah, I did the original concept sketches of the characters for the show. CBC: How much of that would have made it into the final series? Craig: I remember doing the teenage dinosaur with the Mohawk. That’s one thing that got in… There was a lot going on at that time because Jim decided to sell the company to Disney. I recall basically just me and maybe one or two others liked the idea of going with Disney, though Jim certainly was into it. Nearly everybody else at the Muppets hated the idea of working with Disney. They saw Disney as this big evil corporation from L.A. Jim Henson Productions was a pretty small, family-owned company and the employees didn’t like the idea of a monolith corporation taking over. But Jim liked it because, at the Muppets, he had to get involved with business meetings, deal with so many non-creative aspects, care about licensing… At times he had to get into discussions about employees and hiring and

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

This page: Kid games and eye accessory Craig Yoe created while working in the toy industry during the 1980s, a game he originally called “Hair Play” (above) and, at bottom, a “zany game” that was ultimately poorly manufactured by Mattel.

Next page: At top, Craig shows R. Crumb his original art collection exhibited at the Society of Illustrators, and, at bottom, David Mazzucchelli art graces the cover of the Comic Book section of Nickelodeon #1.

and said how very sad he himself was at Jim’s passing. It seemed the whole world was touched that day. But I found some comfort realizing, in a way, Jim lived so many lives through what he did and he impacted so many millions of people for the good. Long live Jim Henson! CBC: His presence is still felt. Craig: You got that right, Jon. One of the reasons he accomplished so much is Jim worked non-stop. He went 24/7, every single week. Rarely slowed down, so he brought a tremendous lot of stupendous, beautiful things to the world. One day, Jim gathered a bunch of people in the conference room. He didn’t say, “What show can we come up with that will sell a lot of Happy Meals and make us boxcars full of money!” He said, “What can we create that will bring peace to the world in our lifetime?” Out of that meeting came Fraggle Rock! He was motivated by peace, love, and creativity. Like a hippie. My kind of guy. Feathers and fur. Warm and fuzzy. He was Kermit the Frog. CBC: You’re glad he walked the earth; he brought great joy to many people. Craig: And such quality. At the Muppets, we were happy to work long hours to do and redo to make quality to the nth degree. That’s something I learned from Jim. Not a day goes by that I don’t think because of his inspiration, “Let’s try a little harder, do a little better, maybe only we will appreciate it, but let’s make it a more quality book in terms of the writing or the design.” Whatever I’m working on I try to be inspired by him. CBC: Like Rick Griffin. Craig: Yes, another role model for me! My office in the Victorian brownstone we were in was right across the hall from Jim. There were only our two offices in that little alcove. I was close to him and got to see and meet with him a lot when he wasn’t flying all over the world. I would need to see him about an idea I had about a show or something. Barbara Bush had the 1:30 meeting… CBC: The Barbara Bush? Craig: Yes, to talk about promoting literacy. I had the 2:00 meeting and somebody like Quincy Jones had the 2:30, so I’d go there at 2:00, he wouldn’t be thinking about Barbara Bush or Quincy Jones, for a half-hour. I had his total attention. Not because I’m in their class by any means, but because that’s how he was. He was very focused and was very open to my ideas. He was great that way and I’d go to Jim’s apartment in New York City and his home in California and was actually pretty close to his son John, who was very talented and the most hippie of his children. All of his kids were astonishingly creative, each in their own way. CBC: Is Henson one of the great creative minds of this past century? Craig: Is there any doubt? His level of creativity and the kind motivations behind it, I hope he continues to have great influence on the world as you said, Jon! One day, I invited my hero Steve Ditko to come over and tour the Creature Shop. He had no idea what the Muppets were, but was intrigued and up for a free lunch at a fancy restaurant. I was actually kind of glad when the lunch part was over as it was hard to have a light convo with him. “There’s pepper! There’s salt! There’s nothing in between!” He was much more in his element in the Creature Shop

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Fraggle Rock TM & © The Jim Henson Company. Dinosaurs, The Art of Mickey Mouse TM & © Disney. Muppets TM & © Muppets Studio, LLC. Arf TM & © Craig Yoe. MTV TM & © Viacom International Inc.

This page: At top, left to right, Craig Yoe did the original concept drawings for the TV show Dinosaurs (1991); Craig had lunch with Jim Henson the day before the creative genius died, in the spring of 1990; illustrator Kelly Freas created this MADlike portrait of Craig; Comics Arf was Craig’s short-lived but awesome magazine/book series from the ’00s. Above is a MTV station ID Craig created, which earned an Addy Award. Below is the Andy Warhol cover to perhaps Craig’s greatest success, The Art of Mickey Mouse, which included contributions from a stellar gathering of creative talents, including Charles Schulz, R. Crumb, and Jack Kirby, among many more.

firing… non-creative business crap. Disney had lost Walt years ago and were still trying to find all their footing and creative direction. They wanted a creative powerhouse and Jim was certainly that. So it was a great match, in my humble opinion. However, the legal aspect of merging the two companies took a good year to figure it out. Everyone at the Muppets became an employee of Disney during that time. I no longer had my paychecks signed by Jim and the Muppets. I was employed by Disney! As a former Mouseketeer who got started in this world by devouring Disney comics as a kid and watched the Mickey Mouse Club religiously, that was kind of a thrill to me! The lawyers were finally almost ready with the contracts to merge the Muppets with Disney—a couple more t’s to cross and i’s to dot. I had an offer to go to L.A. and work with Disney there, but Jim wanted me. He offered me the job of vice president/general manager/creative director of the Muppets and I’d stay in New York. So I had to decide. I decided to stay with Jim. As part of my new duties, Jim put me in charge of the Creature Shop—the people involved in building all the puppets. They were great, super-talented, and amazing craftspeople. Soon I had a lunch with Jim and we were discussing all that was going on. Jim was coughing a lot. I inquired, “Jim, are you okay?” He said, “I just have a bad cough.” I got a call the next morning from Jim’s assistant. “Jim died last night.” CBC: You had lunch with Jim Henson the day before he died? Craig: Hours before he died. I was one of the last people to see him alive. CBC: How old was he? Craig: Fifty-three. The world was shocked. People called me—relatives and friends, long-forgotten people from high school—“I didn’t know him but I’m crying because Jim Henson died!” I, myself, was, of course, devastated. This is a weird connected story. Mere hours after Jim passed I remember my assistant telling me Bill Murray was on the phone and was looking for Frank Oz. She was suspicious because we were getting so many damn weird calls that day, callous people talking in Kermit’s voice, wanting to take over for Jim, sh*t like that. I took the phone and said, “Who is this?” The guy on the other end answered, “Bill Murray.” Well, a little suspicious myself and not knowing if it was really him or some nut case I said, “Just what kind of business are you in, Mr. Murray?” Bill paused and then said, “Well, show business, I guess!” I then realized it was Bill, and I apologized, pleading that there was so much craziness going on. Bill said he totally understood

The Comic Book TM & © Viacom International, Inc.

afterwards. Steve looked like he was in one of his old Amazing Adult Fantasy stories with all the puppet parts hanging from the rafters and was very interested and full of questions! I then took Steve to meet Jim. Doctor Strange shook Kermit the Frog’s hand! Steve and Jim were nonplussed, not in any way aware of each other or each other’s creations. For me it was the thrill of lifetime! Steve was a nice guy and kindly reciprocated and invited me to come and hang out at his studio. It was dusty, messy, and about the size of closet. There was no place to sit except on a stack of Ayn Rand fanzines. Being there, in the master’s studio, I had died and gone to heaven. Steve and I started a friendship then and he drew a story for the Big Boy comics for me. And he “advised” me on the books collecting his comics I have edited and published. For the first book, when I asked him what stories to include, he jokingly said, “If you want advice, go to a priest!” Steve had a great sense of humor! For a subsequent volume, I checked in and asked for input on the book and Steve said, “Do what you want, I have no interest in my old work. Good luck!” CBC: How did the book The Art of Mickey Mouse come about? Craig: Disney decided to create a publishing company, not to do “Disney” books, but just to be have their own big stake in publishing. They were going to start a company called Hyperion, named after the street where Walt had his operation in a garage when he started in L.A. I met with this nice guy, Robert Miller, the one and only guy there, the only employee so far—I think he had been with Random House or something—they gave him the job to start and head up a publishing company. I got in touch with Robert because I’d gotten to know everybody from Michael Eisner to Jeffrey Katzenberg. I said, “I have an idea for a book.” They said, “Get in touch with this guy.” So, I went and showed Robert my wacky Mickey drawings I drew and some similar Mickey-bending from other people, including the painting Andy Warhol had done. I said, “I can get together a whole coffee table art book of off-model Mickey Mouse illustrations. It’ll be cool!” He said, “Great, we’ll do it!” He said he hadn’t really planned on doing Disney character books. Instead they were going to be soliciting novels from big name writers, that kind of thing, but he loved the creativity and attitude of my idea. CBC: Their first book? Craig: Yeah. I got Andy Warhol on the cover, Keith Haring for the endpapers, Seymour Chwast, Robert Grossman, William Steig, Gary Panter, Heinz Edelmann, William Joyce, Hajime Sorayama, Saul Bass, Gary Baseman, and all these luminaries in the art, illustration, comics, design, film, and fashion worlds to do their interpretation of Mickey Mouse. I got my friend and neighbor—since he found me a house—Little Lulu’s John Stanley out of retirement for this. CBC: Plus, a long introduction by John Updike. Craig: Plus, I got Charles Schulz to draw Mickey. He was so excited when I contacted him that he called me up and talked for an hour or two about how he loved Mickey Mouse and I was asking him all about Peanuts. He was stoked! He ended up drawing Mickey on Snoopy’s doghouse with Snoopy. I got my pal and hero Rick Griffin for the book, one of the very last pieces he did. CBC: You got Crumb!? Craig: I got Robert Crumb. And Moscoso… Patrick McDonnell before he did Mutts. CBC: His piece is really good! Craig: Everybody loves Patrick’s Mickey. I just took my kids to Disneyland and a reproduction of his piece hangs in Mickey’s house in Toontown. I got Peter Max… CBC: Ward Kimball… Craig: Ward Kimball was the only Disney artist I used because he was such an iconoCOMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

clast and did such wacky things. I didn’t want any of the other Disney artists to do anything, even though they were geniuses, of course. But this art needed to be totally “off-model.” I became good friends with Ward and went to his home many times. Maurice Sendak was another guy I got for the book. He told me he hated Disney, but loved Mickey and I got him! This was a big book because, in the cartoon realm and licensing world, there was no “creativity.” It was all about fidelity. If you wanted to do a Mickey Mouse toy or T-shirt, or any licensed product with any character, you’d get model sheets and your whole mission was to follow the model sheet precisely and make the character look exact for your product. You had to be “on-model.” People from Disney told me, “Oh, I had the same idea for a book like that, but I was afraid to tell my boss about it because I was worried I’d get fired!” [laughter] It turned out, because I was an outsider, I got away with it. But, ironically, Disney CEO Michael Eisner loved the book! And he himself did something quite creative and radical. He had The Art of Mickey Mouse sent to every Disney licensor with instructions: “Start getting more creative with your licensing.” That’s when you started seeing much more creative approaches to Mickey Mouse in fashion and toys. Whatever Disney does, the rest of the licensing world does, so this book was a watershed event that changed the whole licensing world. And now, today, you see variant covers on comic books. CBC: Wow! Picasso Popeyes… You really do that with the Popeye variant covers. You really go wild… Mary Fleener’s cover is great. Craig: Oh, yeah. We’re doing a book collection of those covers we did for the Popeye comics. CBC: That’s a great idea. Oversized? Craig: Yeah, square, a big book. Off-model Mickey’s changed the whole licensing world! CBC: Did you have a piece of the book? Craig: Yes. As my old business manager liked to tell people, I’m one of the few people who got a royalty from Disney, rather than paying Disney a royalty! I did very well with this book. There are German, French, and Japanese editions. In fact, the Japanese loved this book and years later I had a Japanese museum company contact me and ask me to curate a traveling exhibit of artwork from the book. I own a lot of the artwork and know where the rest is buried. So they had me curate this exhibit and it traveled to seven museums in Japan. They flew Clizia and me to Japan and we toured all these cities and went on TV news shows as some kind of celebs! I made lots more money beyond the books. There were posters and prints sold at the theme parks I got royalties on. That was no Mickey Mouse operation, lemme tell ya! CBC: [Chuckles] Did you take time off? Craig: Yeah, we saw Japan. Another thing I want to mention about the book: not only did Michael Eisner have his staff send a copy to all the licensors, right when it was off the press, he took a copy and flew to Rome and had an audience with the Pope to gift him a copy! Robert Miller had a big photo hanging in his office of Eisner giving The Art of Mickey Mouse book to the Pope! It’s all kind of surreal, isn’t it? And they had a parade at Disneyworld inspired by the book! Talk about wacky Mickey! CBC: What was next? You left the Muppets. Craig: Yes, after Jim died, to open up my own shop. But at the same time, I contacted Nickelodeon and they offered me a job as a creative director. I was tired of commuting from the suburbs into New York while working at the Muppets, so I struck a deal that I would work 20 hours a week for Nick and set up a studio in Westchester while also maintaining an office at Nickelodeon. Those were great times. I art directed the whole Nickelodeon Gak toy line for Mattel, was there for the beginnings of Ren and Stimpy, Doug, 13

I looked up, saw this splendiferous vision of jaw-dropping loveliness and it was love at first sight! They had dinner for the guests an hour before and, not knowing the language, I asked some Italian cartoonists, “Hey, if I see an Italian woman and I fall in love, what should I say?” They giggled, “Il mio destino.” [Craig and Jon in unison] “You are my destiny.” [laughter] So, when I saw Clizia, the most beautiful woman I’ve ever seen then and since, I looked up and said just that! “Il mio destino!” She took one look at me and thought, “This crazy American is on drugs!” [laughter] CBC: What year did you meet? Craig: In 1993. It turned out Clizia is not only stunningly beautiful, but smart as a whip, patient, easy to live and work with, and an astonishingly talented writer and artist. Did I mention she is an incredible mom…? Also, at the Lucca convention, I got to know the Italian comics master Benito Jacovitti and became friends with Frank Thomas and Ollie Johnston, two of Disney’s “Nine Old Men,” who were also guests. Through the Mickey Mouse book with Ward Kimball and later with Frank and Ollie,and then with Mark Davis, who I hooked up with later—I used to stay in his house when I came to L.A.—I became friends with four of the “Nine Old Men”! Oh my god, what an incredible experience. They liked me, initially because of The Art of Mickey Mouse book, because I did something rebellious. We’d take that book to meetings and people were like, “Wow!” The book opened a lot of doors with big corporations. If Disney was going to trust me with their signature character… people were assured I could be trusted with their characters or their businesses or their projects. CBC: When did Yoe Books start? Craig: When I started at the Muppets, I went to San Diego Comic Con to recruit talent. And the same time I showed around a side-project, a mock-up of a book series about the intersection of modern art and comics. It was called Arf. I showed it to Fantagraphics, Marvel, Eclipse, and a couple others, and was surprised—they all wanted to do it! Even Marvel. But I got cold feet, was afraid of success actually and put it in a drawer. Many years later, when I found some time for extracurricular activities, I got this Arf project out, put my fears aside, and wrote Gary Groth and reminded him about the idea. He immediately wrote back and said, “Let’s do it!” So we did four volumes. I loved doing Arf and got Art Spiegelman, R. Crumb, Jules Feiffer, Matt Groening, Mike Mignola, Sergio Aragonés, Jaime Hernandez, Bil Keane, Al Jaffee, Denis Kitchen, Mort Walker, and others to do art for the Milt Gross issue. Not long thereafter, I went to a vintage paperback show and there was a guy with a cardboard box at the back of his table of books. I saw there were thin pornographic S&M books from the ’50s. I had always thought, “I bet comic book guys moonlighted for porn.” These Nights of Horror books were numbered and I eventually tracked all 16 down by contacting erotic book dealers in California, France, and found a number that had made their way to England, where, as we all well know, people are especially kinky! I showed these forbidden books to Charlie Kochman, who had just been hired by Abrams Books to start a comics division. He sent me a contract immediately and Secret Identity: The Fetish Art of Superman’s Co-Creator Joe Shuster became their ComicArts line’s first book (like The Art of Mickey Mouse had been Hyperion’s first release). Charlie thought this would make a splash for the debut of the imprint. And he was right! We had an opening event at a hip nightclub in New York filled with reporters, kinky people, and comic fans. Fetish people set up wild demonstrations while I autographed copies. A dominatrix spanked me with a copy of the book! The book was in Time, Newsweek, Hustler, and Playboy! The book was ballyhooed on the front page of USA Today. Terry Gross did an hour-long interview with me for her NPR Fresh Air show. I was interviewed on tons of radio shows, invited to foreign comic conventions and Secret Identity

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Popeye TM & © Hearst Holdings, Inc. Big Boy TM & © Big Boy Restaurant’s International LLC. Comics About Cartoonists © Craig Yoe. Eyeball straws TM & © the respective copyright holder.

This page: From top is Mary Fleener’s cover for Popeye #13 [Aug. ’13]; Big Boy #470 [’97]; Comics About Cartoonists [’12]; and popular “eyeball” straws Craig designed for Taco Bell.

Rugrats. I was in charge of overseeing all the design for toys, Happy Meals, and lots of etcetera. I was part of the small group that brainstormed Nickelodeon magazine and offered the idea, because of my abiding love for comics, that there be a comic book insert. I gathered up samples from all the cool indie cartoonists of the time and that’s who they used for the Nickelodeon comics. Comics for kids who weren’t exposed to comics because comic books were no longer mass-marketed and were only for old fan boys. When Disney started Disney Magazine after seeing what Nick was doing, they quite brilliantly did their interior comic section indie-style, too. I think Heidi MacDonald was the mastermind behind that. I’m very proud of this idea which helped keep comics alive for kids before Scholastic and other entities wonderfully came along. Besides Nick, at Yoe Studio we eventually continued to do Muppet stuff, and design for Marvel, DC, Mattel, Microsoft, and many more corporations. We did a ton of fun work for the Cartoon Network through the art director Gary Albright, whom I became fast friends with after we met through a mutual friend at Mort Walker’s Comic Art Museum, in Rye, New York. I designed animation spots for Nick, too, like their opening and closing for the Nicktoons. The Nicktoons logo with its splat came from that. I designed animated commercials for Cartoon Network, and a multiple award-winning interstitial for MTV that was their most heavily rotated station identification of all time. The tremendous, super-creative J.J. Sedelmaier and his studio did the incredible animation work from my concept and design for all of those. Much to my shame now, looking back we did a lot of work for the soda and fast food industry. I creatively supervised Nick’s Happy Meals for McDonald’s. Pepsi put us on retainer for years for 40 hours a week doing toy concepts for their restaurants. I came up with this very popular toy for the Pepsi-owned Taco Bell, which was kind of a Garbage Pail-sy thing. For Happy Meal premiums, it was supposed to be something, well, happy. So, you couldn’t do anything gross, especially around food. But since I did like Garbage Pail Kids, I came up with this idea of wrapping a straw around a dismembered blood-shot eyeball and that would be the premium they gave out at Taco Bell. Some low-level executive championed the eyeball straw for a Halloween promotion and it was so successful he was made a vice president! But now I feel I was doing evil work with evil money-grubbing grifters selling their obesity causing poison! But that’s just me! [laughter] We were the first studio to focus on kids’ stuff, so we were known for that and people came to us—Toys R Us, IBM, Kraft, Microsoft, Disney, Warner Bros.—any company that wanted to reach kids would come to us for concept, marketing and design work. We had over 20 people working at Yoe Studio. One of our biggest and most beloved accounts, alongside all of those other names, was doing the famed Big Boy restaurant chain giveaway comic book. CBC: Was Manny Stallman on it? Craig: No, not at the time we took over. Stan Lee started it. Timely/Marvel did the first issues. Stan wrote it and Bill Everett drew it. It has a storied history, but eventually we produced it. CBC: How did you meet your second wife? Craig: I got invited to exhibit artwork from The Art of Mickey Mouse and speak at a convention in Lucca, Italy. There was a man, Nerio Gussoni, and his daughter, Clizia, in charge of mounting the convention art show. Remember when conventions wonderfully had art shows? I actually didn’t run into Clizia at first, but later on in this old theater built in Roman times, they were showing the Italian premier of Beauty and the Beast. I was kind of bored since it was in Italian, so I went out and sat in the lobby. This kid, a helper with the art show, came over to chat. He barely could communicate because he knew little English. He spotted Clizia and asked her to come and help.

Secret Identity TM & © Craig Yoe.

was featured in magazines from Australia to Asia. A big comic book store in L.A. had me make a slideshow presentation of art from Secret Identity, while the famed Suicide Girls acted out the projected scenes from the book. There was a fascinating story behind Secret Identity: in the ’50s, a gang of Jewish juvenile delinquents got hold of these Nights of Horror books and used them as a guidebook on how to torture people. These punks, who became known as the “Brooklyn Thrill Killers,” would beat up and kill bums in the parks, and tie up and flog girls with whips bought from comic books. The leader of the gang, Jack Koslow, was a Jewish teenager who sported a Hitler mustache and would give the sieg heil to teachers at school! CBC: A real charmer. Craig: A real charmer, alright! The Thrill Killers, as the media—The New York Times, Life, Look, and the sleaze magazines—all deemed them, were eventually caught by the police. But not before they whipped and murdered a few victims. The trial judge thought the gang leader, this Jack Koslow guy, was maybe insane and thus couldn’t be tried. A psychiatrist was invited to determine if he was nuts, none other than Dr. Fredric Wertham! Wertham asked Koslow, “Where do you get your ideas?” The gang leader said, “I read comic books, but they are fetish kinds of comics, Nights of Horror.” All of a sudden, I had this story involving Superman, sex, Joe Shuster being a stage-door Johnny for burlesque shows, juvenile delinquents, Hitler, and a Jew wanna-be mobster who published these porno books in Times Square, plus there’s Wertham! It was quite a story. So, Jon, you asked how Yoe Books got started. I did Secret Identity and Greg Goldstein was just hired at IDW Publishing. He’d seen Arf and saw Secret Identity and, as the new guy, he wanted to bring in new stuff. He got the green light from Ted Adams and called to ask, “Do you want to have your own imprint at IDW and do books on comics history?” And that’s how Yoe Books got started. CBC: How has it been? Craig: It’s great. I love it. Clizia and I work very hard together which I really love and her mom does a lot of the scanning and we have tons of help from generous comic collectors, comics historians, writers, artists and friends. CBC: Does Clizia’s mom live here, too? Craig: Yes, Giovanna lives here, scans, and helps take care of the kids, which gives us a lot more time to devote to the work. Our books are loved and appreciated by fans and we’ve gotten great critical acclaim and awards. CBC: How many volumes have you done? Craig: We’re closing in on having done about 100 books. We did a whole line of Popeye comic books and a horror series mostly with our good friend Steve Banes of the terrific Horrors of It All blog. And there’s our Weird Love series of old wonky romance comics. A favorite book of mine that gives me pride is The Unknown Anti-War Comics. It features Steve Ditko comics and has an intro by Noel Paul Stookey, of Peter, Paul, and Mary, and a comics-style foreword by Nate Powell, the artist of U.S. Representative John Lewis’s graphic memoir, March. My book has a sadly important message for our times. Our Walt Kelly’s Fairy Tales book won an Eisner. The two volumes of Super Weird Heroes have been a big hit. We’re excited about doing new collections of neglected Marvel treasures from their vaults: The Marvel Masterwork Pin-ups collection of those classic Kirby and Ditko and friends pinups is selling like cray-cray. We have more pulse-pounding Marvel books in the works. IDW founders Ted Adams and Robbie Robbins have started a new publishing company, Clover Press, and we are doing books with them, including, it just so happens, a boxed set facsimile of the Night of Horrors book series. We are also doing a timely book, Voting is Your Super Power: Comic Books of the Past Rally Us to the Polls Today. It’s a collection of entertaining and inspiring comics about doing our civic duty. These are rare comics from the Cold War

1950s and the Civil Rights ‘60s… I continue to do much work for other publishers. We did the Little Penis book series, three so far. They have been big sellers with Cider Mill Press. With Little Penis, I’m combining my interests: puppetry, publishing, and sex. [laughter] CBC: Is your art in them? Craig: Yes. I did The Official Barf Book that comes with plastic vomit for the same publisher. I also do a lot of riddle books for kids for Simon & Schuster and other fine folks. I’m working on nine contracted children’s books right now for different publishers. Having Griffin and Grace and the wonderful times I have with them interested me in doing more kids’ books with my own writing and art. So, in additional to books of comics I got a terrific children’s book agent and am doing lots of kids’ books and equally loving it! CBC: There’s a lot of your art in these riddle books. Will you continue do all this when you move to Germany? Craig: Sure! It will be business as usual. Clizia wants to move back to her neighborhood in Europe and I’m psyched for the adventure. And I have always loved European comics, maybe we’ll start publishing those, too! CBC: Yoe Books is probably the longest gig you’ve had, right? Craig: I guess it has been! If you start with my fanzines, I produced as a kid until now, I’ve been writing and publishing about comics for over 50 years! I forgot to get a life! CBC: [Chuckles] I think I first connected with you with Arf. It’s a home-based business now, how was it when you had a lot of employees working at your studio? Did all that management stuff suck? Craig: I was often involved with leadership—with Boy Scouts and then I became a minster—so I was very involved in management there. I thought I was enjoying it but, like hitting your head against a brick wall, you don’t know it hurts until you stop. [laughter] In the right situation, I’d do that again with the right people, the right project, the right mission, but I’ve been enjoying working on a smaller scale. We work with a lot of people through the internet. We have talented, generous, and helpful people for every book that goes out the door. Now I’d like to go back to Europe where I discovered my destiny. Clizia would like to go back to her neighborhood, Europe. We’ve looked at Germany and England; we’re open. Like Steve Ditko always told me… He didn’t want to look back; he wanted to look at what’s next. Looking back with this interview, I’m also thinking, “What is next?” I’m not sure. I have never been a “Five-Year Plan” kind of guy. I love publishing and love comics, so I’m sure I’ll be involved in that as I continue. But here’s where my heart is. We got involved in a project a few years back when I was speaking in Singapore about creative marketing to kids. The incredible Myriam Sidibe was in a conference in the same hotel and was bored, so she wandered the halls. She saw a sign for the conference I was the keynote speaker for and she walked in on my presentation. She was enamored of what I was saying and she asked me to get involved with her. Her father was from the United Nations and she worked for Unilever [a “transnational

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This page: Another Yoe success is his 2009 book Secret Identity: The Fetish Art of Superman’s Co-Creator Joe Shuster (seen above), which chronicles Joe’s work in the S/M booklet series, Nights of Horror and discusses ’50s thrill killers who said they were influenced by the books That publicity photo of Craig and friend is by Adrian Buckmaster.

Top: From left is Craig, son Griffin, wife Clizia Gussoni, and mother-in-law Giovanna. A side-line of Craig’s is producing kid-oriented books, such as The Official Barf Book [2012] and more adult-oriented novelty projects, such as the Little Penis series of the 2010s. Below are the School of 5 and arch enemy Nogood, germ-loving baddie.

Inset above: In 2017, Craig celebrated his 50 years in publishing with this seal, featuring a caricature of the multi-talented publisher by Shawn Dickinson. Photo taken by Clizia Gussoni of her husband, Craig, and Ye Ed, along with Yoe/Gussoni children, son Griffin (left) and daughter Grace. Ye Ed visited the Yoe abode on Sept. 22, 2019, when this interview was conducted.

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All TM & © the respective copyright holders.

consumer good company”]. Myriam wanted to create a program to teach kids to wash their hands because five million kids a year die of diarrheal-related diseases due to poor hand hygiene. Many kids in third-world countries will take a poop and wipe their butt with their hands and then eat. They got infected. Many kids don’t reach their fifth birthday because of this. We went through different ideas with Myriam and eventually I said, “Why don’t we create a team of super-heroes? Super-heroes like the X-Men, but in a fun animation style.” With the help of some of our friends, Clizia and I created the School of 5. These super-heroes represent the five occasions you’re supposed to wash your hands: breakfast, lunch, dinner, taking a bath, and after going to the loo—the bathroom. The School of 5 comics are in 24 languages, distributed in 22 countries, in Africa, India, China, parts of South America. I think they’ve printed 60, 70 million of them. They’ve been out in the field going on 10 years and it appears they’ve saved countless lives! That’s the feel-good project of a lifetime! Oh, and the School of 5 (Sparkle, Biff, Bam, Pow, and Hairyback) were also asked to address in the comics the blindness causing disease of trachoma and they’re always up for a good fight. Around 340 schools and 3,700 teachers in Kenya, Zambia, and Ethiopia have used the School of 5 program since it began. The impact has been massive—an evaluation of participating schools in Turkana, Kenya, in 2018, found faceand hand-washing increased by 40% after the intervention, a level of change that had been sustained 20 months after the program ended. Supported by other activities, the prevalence of trachoma in communities where the program has run has fallen by 30% on average. Comic books stopping blindness! And that meddling old fool Dr. Wertham warned that reading comics would cause

kids to go blind! [laughter] We followed up the School of 5 with a super-hero comic book Captain Domestos who champions the importance of clean toilets for kids and their schools. You don’t realize the impact dirty toilets have, especially with girls. Girls drop out of school when they reach their teens because they can’t stand dealing with disgustingly gross toilets when they get their periods. Unsanitary toilets impact many the education and future of many girls. Super Dentists is another comic book with super-heroes that we created. The Super Dentists valiantly fight for good teeth brushing! Many kids in these places brush their teeth before eating to cleanse their palette. Or not at bedtime when it’s so important so that food doesn’t eat away at teeth. In under-developed countries dental problems are the number one cause of school absenteeism. Again, education is impacted. Super Dentists to the rescue! Rise and Shine are a brother and sister we created to educate through comics about the importance of having a good breakfast. I visited Kenya for research for that. The schools have dirt floors and dark little windows and no “media,” but an old chalkboard and a piece of chalk. Kids actually cry for happiness when they get these fun colorful comic books. And they have behavioral change. They and their families are inspired to have the best breakfasts possible as the most important meal of the day. All these comics have now been bundled together in a program with the Ministry of Education as school curriculum in every school throughout South Africa. Then, through Unilever, we got involved with another project about bringing clean water to communities in Africa. Some of these villages, the women have to take over an hour in the morning and again at night to go get clean water. We helped create these programs with literature and with music and playground games, and the centerpiece is always comic books. In the clean water program, we helped inspire women to become entrepreneurs in their villages, facilitating clean water distributed through the little shops they create. When the women were asked how this program changed their lives, they said the number one thing that resulted was more peace in their villages. The women who got to the streams first would get clean water and fights often broke out. The program changed all that! So we’re helping bring peace to African villages, getting teeth brushed, and, through comics, giving lifesaving messages to at-risk children around the planet. We want to get involved with more of those kinds of projects where we can use our creativity to help bring good to the world. CBC: To bring it full circle. Craig: What you said. Peace!

PIN-UPS 237mm

16.2

PIN-UPS

313

LEE • KIRBY • DITKO

FEATURING THE ART OF

STEVE DITKO, JACK KIRBY AND MORE! WITH WITTY WORDAGE BY

STAN LEE

Edited by

CRAIG YOE

“I keep buying books from Yoe Books as gifts, then keeping them for myself! Check it out!: YoeBooks.com” —Mark Hamill

incoming

Is Crumb the Greatest of All? Apparently, there’s no accounting for one’s taste in comic book geniuses, eh? Write to CBC: jonbcooke@aol.com or P. O. Box 204, West Kingston, RI 02892

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

ACE: All Comics Evaluated TM & © Time Capsule Productions. Dawn TM & © Joseph Michael Linsner. Wonder Woman, Batman TM & © DC Comics. Thor, Ant-Man, Iron Man TM & © Marvel Characters Inc. Stormtrooper, Boba Fett TM & © Lucasfilm Ltd.

Below: Ye Ed is still heartbroken that ACE: All Comics Evaluated bit the dust before this amazing Joseph Michael Linsner cover art saw print.

[A plea on Facebook for letters of comment brought in a few cool stuff, some of which I had never seen before. What an missives this time out, so, to those accommodating readers, issue! And thanks again for continually inspiring my own many thanks! Keep those letters and emails comin’, folks! comics artwork. — Ye Crusading Editor] [Thank you, my friend. Folks, Jay has been a faithful reader of my material since the earliest days of Comic Book Jay Willson Artist and I’m proud to say that I will be designing his Don Newton bio-slash-art book when the time is ripe. And allow It had been a while since my last LOC, and CBC #21 was me to express regret that I didn’t include Jay’s detailed particularly outstanding, so I thought it was time to rectify comments regarding future interview suggestions, but I that problem. will say I love the work of more than a few listed: Jonathan Issue 21 was, as is the case with all my favorite issues Hickman, Nick Dragotta, Daniel Warren Johnson, Michel of Comic Book Creator, a potpourri of great discussions, creative people, and artwork. This one particularly exceed- Fiffe, Al Ewing, Sean Murphy, Brian Michael Bendis, Nick Bradshaw, Scott Snyder, Tom King, and Eric Stephenson. ed in the last part, as any mag with Robert Crumb, John Hey, get me direct contact and I’d happily pursue!—Y.E.] Romita Sr., Steve Mannion, and Eric Powell is going to get me to pull out my wallet every time. What a terrific issue of amazing artwork. Jason Young Although I had heard it on the podcast, the Crumb I started reading CBC earlier this year and I wanted to let interview was still was a wonderful read. It was very satisyou know how much I love it! It’s amazing that there is still fying to read Crumb’s comments as he walked, somewhat a mag in print where you can find essays and interviews stunned, through the great history of Weirdo. Congrats yet featuring comics writers and artists. I have always loved again on producing that wonderful Book of Weirdo. reading those kinds of things (whether or not I am familiar John Romita is always a worthy subject of conversation, with the subject, as long as they make comics I am interconsidering his history and the amount of great artwork the ested)! man has produced. I am always especially pleased to read CBC reminds me of a halfway point between The Comof the artist’s delight at seeing his great work published in ics Journal and Wizard magazine as far as the journalism book form, as is the case currently with the Spider-Man and excitement contained within (which wasn’t supposed comic strips. to sound like an insult). I loved both those other mags, but Steve Mannion is a phenomenal artist. One-part on occasion the Journal would be a little too pretentious for Frazetta, one-part Wrightme and Wizard a bit too...Wizardy. But I have always dug son or Ghastly Graham interviews with cartoonists. Reading online is something I Engel, one-part good-girl find tedious and undoubtedly if I came across some of the artist, and, finally, an artist same interviews and articles on the web I would just ignore possessing some amazing them. So, thanks for all the hard work you and your team technical skill that brings me does, it is much appreciated! to a great appreciation level In closing, I wanted to specifically mention the fall 2019 every time I see something issue was chock full of great reading and the Eric Powell drawn by him. I’ve been interview inspired me to draw the enclosed Goon sketch attempting to purchase an (I am an amateur comic artist and realized I had never original of his for months and tried my hand at Eric’s fantastic creation so I knew I had to am not having a lot of luck. remedy that situation)! So, my plea is to please keep CBC in Obviously, I am not the only print, I for one am along for the long haul. one with great love for the [A new reader of CBC? How cool is that! Welcome artwork of Mr. Mannion. aboard, Jason, and I hope you enjoy future issues! And, Finally, the main interin the meantime, check out past issues, descriptions of view, with the great Eric which you’ll find in our house ad pages. And check online Powell. I’ve loved Powell’s at www.twomorrows.com as my publisher frequently has Wrightson-influenced work sales. Oh, and yours truly actually attempted a magazine for years, but don’t own a more towards the Wizard model with his ACE: All Comics lot of it. As I was reading Evaluated magazine that lasted three issues in early 2015. It the interview, I enjoyed was a fantastic experience, as the entirety of the contemreading about him so much porary comics scene was covered, with a healthy splash of that I logged into Amazon retro material. Alas, the shops just didn’t support the effort, and purchased the first so we’ll be sticking with the tried and true.—Y.E.] volume of his Goon series. Next up will be Hillbilly and, Joe Frank eventually, I’ll own all of it. What a fantastic artist and a Though most of your subjects were unfamiliar or completely seemingly great guy. unknown to me in CBC #21, for once, I still enjoyed aspects Mixed in with these of this issue. In introducing us to some comics practitioners, great interviews was terrific maybe you’ll spark interest or focus on someone not articles on a whole host of already a well-known commodity?

Also, this time out, I see there’s a greater variety and an increase in shorter articles. I confess I prefer more mainstream subjects, but you usually have that. This is more an anomaly. It’s your magazine and you can cover whomever you choose. You select whether to give them a higher profile or to introduce them to fans of CBC. They do qualify, even if they’re doing comics we haven’t, as yet, read. One thing I’d like to see: birth years included. So often, if someone is reminiscing about their childhood and favorites at the time, it’s nice to know what era they’re talking about. Whether they’re X-number of years older or younger than me, I can better grasp what they may’ve seen or had as an influence. Even in areas where we outright disagree—such as Robert Crumb being the “greatest comics artist of ’em all…”—it’s easily rectified. Instead of promoting him that way, it’s likely preferable to simply say he’s your favorite. No one can get contentious or contradict that. It’s hard to really assert, objectively, any one artist is the best. First, it would imply the individual knows all the artists from the Golden Age to now and has compared them according to some standard to announce that decision. Secondly, by making the claim, it invites rebuttals from those who have other artists they prefer. In ’70s fanzines, the names I always saw as the zenith of comic book talent were Harvey Kurtzman, Will Eisner, and Carl Barks. No denying they were great creators. But, even then, there were those I liked far more. It may be dependent on when someone grew up, reading comics, or which ones they preferred. But, by announcing a sure winner in talent and influence, others can make a mental comparison, as I did, and simply have different selections. Plus, in setting someone up as the “greatest,” it may be no favor. Any newcomer would naturally go in with unrealistically heightened expectations which, quite likely, couldn’t possibly be met. A favorite is clearly subjective, so it’s less a proclamation and more a personal preference.

What I liked about the Robert Crumb interview is that he was interested and impressed by your dedication to his work and that he didn’t have pat answers. Sometimes he said he didn’t know or remember, which seems honest in reviewing details from 40 or 50 years back. Though I read John Romita’s work, as a kid, and Gwen Stacy’s demise was long after I departed, I still think, in retrospect, it was a mistake. Is death the only or best way to revitalize a book? Not in that case. She could have been written out, just as dramatically, without darkening the mood thereafter. In a different interview, John had said the idea was to show readers anything could happen. They did, but not in the way intended. The outcry was so great, they brought back a clone, demonstrating no idea can’t be compromised or overturned. Later, the comics industry would use temporary deaths as, of all things, a sales tool. Better to add new and compelling elements rather than casually threaten the status quo. Loved all the photographs included this time, especially the Eisner Awards, the Weirdo gatherings, and the two recent pics of Joe Sinnott. Especially cool was the panorama of Eisner winners looking so jubilant. Great stuff. Super-eager for the next issue. With two big favorites—Joe Sinnott and P. Craig Russell—I’m sure it’ll connect very well. But this one, even with no sure things for me, was an entertaining read, if slightly less so than usual. But watch, it’ll be someone else’s highlight. [Natch, my hyperbolic pronouncements regarding the status of Robert Crumb in my pantheon of cartoonists should be taken slightly tongue-in-cheek, though I could debate emphatically that his influence on the art form is unmatched, but genius is not, after all, easily determined and we all like who we like… But, as always, thanks for the steady correspondence, Joe! I’m grateful!—Y.E.]

Heavy Metal TM & © Heavy Metal Media LLC. The Goon TM & © Eric Powell.

Phil Yeh

Above: Ye Ed and publisher John Morrow have been slaving away to finish The World of TwoMorrows, our 25th anniversary celebration, and we uncovered this cover mockup (with Simon Bisley art) for the as-yet unfinished history of the beginnings of Heavy Metal. While perhaps not to be published by TwoMorrows, yours truly continues to accumulate interviews and hopes to have, over the next few years, a comprehensive retrospective of HM’s first 10 years and the origins of Métal Hurlant, with the co-editing help of Jean Depelley on the latter material! The final book will neither have the same title or use the same cover artwork. Below: CBC first-timer Jason Young included his sketch of The Goon with his comments.

I really enjoy the magazine and especially the Mary Fleener interview and the current issue with Robert Crumb. All of these people are dear to my own art because I love to draw and create my own comics. Some of the people you have profiled in the magazine are friends and others just folks who I have admired over the years. Although I have not been in the mainstream of comics through the years. I have always tried to bring in more people into reading comics through my work in Cartoonists Across America. Now that I am 65, I have one more Frank the Unicorn adventure coming out in 2020. I created Frank in 1979 and published his first book back in 1981. When the second one came out in 1982, Howard Cruse did a wonderful drawing as a review in Heavy Metal… we used to sell many books before the world became strange. Anyway, I have published a lot of books through the years and felt that I would just write you and share my voice. I really enjoy your magazine! COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

COMIC BOOK CREATOR #4

RUSS HEATH career-spanning interview, essay on Heath’s work by S.C. RINGGENBERG (and Heath art gallery), MORT TODD on working with STEVE DITKO, a profile of alt cartoonist DAN GOLDMAN, part two of our MARK WAID interview, DENYS COWAN on his DJANGO series, VIC BLOOM and THE SECRET ORIGIN OF ARCHIE ANDREWS, HEMBECK, new KEVIN NOWLAN cover!

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99

4-issue subscriptions: $45 US $67 International

COMIC BOOK CREATOR #5 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #6 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #8

DENIS KITCHEN close-up—from cartoonist, publisher, author, and art agent, to his friendships with HARVEY KURTZMAN, R. CRUMB, WILL EISNER, and many others! Plus we look at the triumphant final splash of the late, great BILL EVERETT, Prof. CAROL L. TILLEY discusses the shoddy research and falsified evidence in the book SEDUCTION OF THE INNOCENT, DENYS COWAN interview part two, and more!

SWAMPMEN: MUCK-MONSTERS OF THE COMICS dredges up The Heap! Man-Thing! Swamp Thing! Marvin the Dead Thing! Bog Beast! The Lurker and It! and other creepy man-critters of the 1970s bayou! Features interviews with WRIGHTSON, MOORE, PLOOG, WEIN, GERBER, BISSETTE, VEITCH, MAYERIK, MOONEY, TOTLEBEN, VEITCH, and others. FRANK CHO cover!

The creators of Madman and Flaming Carrot—MIKE ALLRED & BOB BURDEN— share a cover and provide comprehensive interviews and art galore, plus BILL SCHELLY is interviewed about his new HARVEY KURTZMAN biography; we present the conclusion of our BATTON LASH interview; STAN LEE on his final European comic convention tour; fan-favorite HEMBECK, and more!

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JOE STATON on his comics career (from E-MAN, to co-creating The Huntress, and his current stint on the Dick Tracy comic strip), plus we showcase the lost treasure GODS OF MOUNT OLYMPUS drawn by Joe! Plus, Part One of our interview with the late STAN GOLDBERG, JOHN WORKMAN’s Mighty Aphrodite, GEORGE KHOURY talks with artist LEILA LEIZ, plus HEMBECK and more!

WARP examined! Massive PETER BAGGE retrospective! It’s a double focus on the Broadway sci-fi epic, with a comprehensive feature including art director NEAL ADAMS and director STUART (Reanimator) GORDON, plus cast and crew! Also a career-spanning conversation with the man of HATE! and NEAT STUFF on the real story behind Buddy Bradley! Plus the revival of MIRACLEMAN, Captain Marvel’s 75th birthday, and more!

Retrospective on GIL KANE, co-creator of the modern Green Lantern and Atom, and early progenitor of the graphic novel. Kane cover newly-inked by KLAUS JANSON, plus remembrances from friends, fans, and collaborators, and a Kane art gallery. Also, our tribute to the late HERB TRIMPE, interview with PAUL LEVITZ about his new book Will Eisner: Champion of the Graphic Novel, and more!

JACK KIRBY’s mid-life work examined, from Fantastic Four and Thor at Marvel in the middle ’60s to the Fourth World at DC (including the real-life background drama that unfolded during that tumultuous era)! Plus a career-spanning interview with underground comix pioneer HOWARD CRUSE, the extraordinary cartoonist and graphic novelist of the award-winning Stuck Rubber Baby! Cover by STEVE RUDE!

MICHAEL W. KALUTA feature interview covering his early fans days THE SHADOW, STARSTRUCK, the STUDIO, and Vertigo cover work! Plus RAMONA FRADON talks about her 65+ years in the comic book business on AQUAMAN, METAMORPHO, SUPER-FRIENDS, and SPONGEBOB! Also JAY LYNCH reveals the WACKY PACK MEN who created the Topps trading cards that influenced an entire generation!

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COMIC BOOK CREATOR #14 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #15 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #16 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #17 COMIC BOOK CREATOR #18

Comprehensive KELLEY JONES interview, from early years as Marvel inker to present-day greatness at DC depicting BATMAN, DEADMAN, and SWAMP THING (chockful of rarely-seen artwork)! Plus WILL MURRAY examines the nefarious legacy of Batman co-creator BOB KANE in an investigation into tragic ghosts and rapacious greed. We also look at RAINA TELGEMEIER and her magnificent army of devotees, and more!

Celebrating 30 years of artist’s artist MARK SCHULTZ, creator of the CADILLACS AND DINOSAURS franchise, with a feature-length, career-spanning interview conducted in Mark’s Pennsylvanian home, examining the early years of struggle, success with Kitchen Sink Press, and hitting it big with a Saturday morning cartoon series. Includes rarely-seen art and fascinating photos from Mark’s amazing and award-winning career.

A look at 75 years of Archie Comics’ characters and titles, from Archie and his pals ‘n gals to the mighty MLJ heroes of yesteryear and today’s “Dark Circle”! Also: Careerspanning interviews with The Fox’s DEAN HASPIEL and Kevin Keller’s cartoonist DAN PARENT, who both jam on our exclusive cover depicting a face-off between humor and heroes. Plus our usual features, including the hilarious FRED HEMBECK!

The legacy and influence of WALLACE WOOD, with a comprehensive essay about Woody’s career, extended interview with Wood assistant RALPH REESE (artist for Marvel’s horror comics, National Lampoon, and underground), a long chat with cover artist HILARY BARTA (Marvel inker, Plastic Man and America’s Best artist with ALAN MOORE), plus our usual columns, features, and the humor of HEMBECK!

Career-spanning discussion with STEVE “THE DUDE” RUDE, as he shares his reallife psychological struggles, the challenges of freelance subsistence, and his creative aspirations. Also: The jungle art of NEAL ADAMS, MARY FLEENER on her forthcoming graphic novel Billie the Bee and her comix career, RICH BUCKLER interview Part Three, Golden Age artist FRANK BORTH, HEMBECK and more!

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The forerunner to COMIC BOOK CREATOR, CBA is the 2000-2004 Eisner Award winner for BEST COMICS-RELATED MAG! Edited by COMIC BOOK CREATOR’s JON B. COOKE, it features in-depth articles, interviews, and unseen art, celebrating the lives and careers of the great comics artists from the 1970s to today.

FINAL PRINT ISSUE OF CBA VOLUME 1!

#19: HARVEY COMICS

GO ONLINE FOR DIGITAL EDITIONS OF ALL 25 ISSUES OF COMIC BOOK ARTIST VOLUME 1!

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COMIC BOOK ARTIST: SPECIAL EDITION #1

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Previously available only to CBA subscribers! Spotlights great DC Comics of the ‘70s: Interviews with MARK EVANIER and STEVE SHERMAN on JACK KIRBY’s Fourth World, ALEX TOTH on his mystery work, NEAL ADAMS on Superman vs. Muhammad Ali, RUSS HEATH on Sgt. Rock, BRUCE JONES discussing BERNIE WRIGHTSON (plus a WRIGHTSON portfolio), and a BRUCE TIMM interview, art gallery, and cover!

Compiles the new “extras” from CBA COLLECTION VOL. 1-3: unpublished JACK KIRBY story, unpublished BERNIE WRIGHTSON art, unused JEFF JONES story, ALAN WEISS interview, examination of STEVE ENGLEHART and MARSHALL ROGERS’ 1970s Batman work, a look at DC’s rare Cancelled Comics Cavalcade, PAUL GULACY art gallery, Marvel Value Stamp history, Mr. Monster, and more!

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TwoMorrows now offers Digital Editions of Jon B. Cooke’s COMIC BOOK ARTIST Vol. 2 (the “Top Shelf” issues)

CBA Vol. 2 #1

CBA Vol. 2 #2

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CBA Vol. 2 #6

NEAL ADAMS/ALEX ROSS cover and interviews with both, history of “Arcade, The Comics Revue” with underground legends CRUMB, SPIEGELMAN, and GRIFFITH, MICHAEL MOORCOCK on comic book adaptations of his work, CRAIG THOMPSON sketchbook, and more!

Exhaustive FRANK CHO interview and sketchbook gallery, ALEX ROSS sketchbook section of never-before-seen pencils, MIKE FRIEDRICH on the history of Star*Reach, plus animator J.J. SEDELMAIER on his Ambiguously Gay Duo and The X-Presidents cartoons for Saturday Night Live.

Interview with DARWYN COOKE and a gallery of rarely-seen and unpublished artwork, a chat with DC Comics art director MARK CHIARELLO, an exploration of The Adventures of Little Archie with creator BOB BOLLING and artist DEXTER TAYLOR, new JAY STEPHENS sketchbook section, and more!

ALEX NIÑO’s first ever full-length interview and huge gallery of his artwork, interview with BYRON PREISS on his career in publishing, plus the most comprehensive look ever at the great Filipino comic book artists (NESTOR REDONDO, ALFREDO ALCALA, and others), a STEVE RUDE sketchbook, and more!

HOWARD CHAYKIN interview and gallery of unpublished artwork, a look at the ’70s black-&-white mags published by Skywald, tribute to Psycho and Nightmare writer/editor ALAN HEWETSON, LEAH MOORE & JOHN REPPION on Wild Girl, a SONNY LIEW sketchbook section, and more!

Double-sized tribute to WILL EISNER! Over 200 comics luminaries celebrate his career and impact: SPIEGELMAN, FEIFFER & McCLOUD on their friendships with Eisner, testimonials by ALAN MOORE, NEIL GAIMAN, STAN LEE, RICHARD CORBEN, JOE KUBERT, DAVID MAZZUCCHELLI, JOE SIMON, and others!

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TwoMorrows. The Future of Comics History.

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Celebrating the greatest fantasy artist of all time, FRANK FRAZETTA! From THUN’DA and EC COMICS to CREEPY, EERIE, and VAMPIRELLA, STEVE RINGGENBERG and CBC’s editor present an historical retrospective, including insights by current creators and associates, and memories of the man himself. PLUS: Frazetta-inspired artists JOE JUSKO, and TOM GRINDBERG, who contributes our Death Dealer cover painting!

NOT YOUR AVERAGE JOES! Interview with JOSEPH MICHAEL LINSNER (CRY FOR DAWN, VAMPIRELLA), a chat with JOE SINNOTT about his Marvel years inking Jack Kirby and work at TREASURE CHEST, JOE JUSKO discusses the Marvel Age of Comics and his fabulous “Corner Box Collection,” plus the artists behind the Topps bubble gum BAZOOKA JOE comic strips, CRAIG YOE, and more!

ERIC POWELL celebrates 20 years of THE GOON! with a career-spanning interview and a gallery of rare artwork. Plus CBC editor and author JON B. COOKE on his new retrospective THE BOOK OF WEIRDO, a new interview with R. CRUMB about his work on that legendary humor comics anthology, JOHN ROMITA SR. on his admiration for the work of MILTON CANIFF, and more!

P. CRAIG RUSSELL career-spanning interview (complete with photos and art gallery), an almost completely unknown work by FRANK QUITELY (artist on All-Star Superman and The Authority), DERF BACKDERF’s forthcoming graphic novel commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Kent State shootings, CAROL TYLER shares her prolific career, JOE SINNOTT discusses his Treasure Chest work, CRAIG YOE, and more!

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darrick patrick’s ten questions

Jimmy Palmiotti: 10 Qs Darrick Patrick asks the jovial artist and Painkiller Jane co-creator a bunch of queries by DARRICK PATRICK Jimmy Palmiotti is a pro writer and inker who has worked on lots and lots of comic book titles, including Harley Quinn, The Punisher, Ash, Ghost Rider, Monolith, Painkiller Jane, The ’Nam, Catwoman, Deadpool, The Pro, among others, many with his wife and frequent collaborator, Amanda Conner. In 1994, he and now Marvel Comics creative director Joe Quesada formed Event Comics, and, a few years later, they were contracted to do several books for Marvel, known as Marvel Knights. Ever since then, life has been quite active for Palmiotti.

Above: Fan fave artist Amanda Conner drew this nifty Painkiller Jane: The Price of Freedom #2 [Dec. 2013] cover for hubby Jimmy Palmiotti, who co-created the character. Below: Jimmy himself as lensed by Kendall Whitehouse, at the 2014 ComicCon International: San Diego. Next page: “Painkiller” Jane Vosko print by Amanda.

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Painkiller Jane TM & © Jimmy Palmiotti & Joe Quesada. Photo © Kendall Whitehouse.

Darrick Patrick: What was the path that led you to working professionally within comic books as a career? Jimmy Palmiotti: I originally wanted to draw comics and make that my living. I even went so far as to go to the High School of Art and Design, in New York City, taking comic book art as a major but, along the way, I met and worked for some comic book professionals. I saw that there wasn’t much of a living to be had. I was already poor, in a sense, and didn’t want to get into a field with no future. So, I switched my major to advertising and went to college for that. After I graduated, I landed a job at an ad agency and worked on many big accounts, including Pepsi, Maybelline, and with Bill Gold designing movie posters, on and off, for nine years. After-hours, I met a few guys making their own comics who needed some help. I worked for Eternity Comics doing coloring and inking, getting paid just enough to take the train and eat once in a while. It was a learning experience, and I worked on titles like Ex-Mutants, Ninja, and Alien Nation. I did this work on the side of my regular job and at night until I finally got a break working for my high school buddy, Mark Texeira, and started to pick up inking gigs. My next big move was teaming up with Joe Quesada and creating Event Comics. That’s when I started self-publishing. A couple years after, we were approached by Marvel to create Marvel Knights and I have been super-busy ever since. The steady income did not come for many years, but I saved enough in the bank and lived cheaply until it started to pay better. To this day, I am still constantly hustling. Darrick: Who are some of the people that greatly influenced you while growing up? Jimmy: Looking back at my life, my parents are the standouts in so many ways.

My dad was in World War II, came back, got married to my mom, in Brooklyn, where both families lived, and owned a paint store until he semi-retired in the 1980s. My father barely made a living and worked six days a week, from 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., each and every day. My mom also had it tough, as anyone would, having four boys to look after. They both worked their asses off and treated everyone around them with kindness, understanding, and respect. They each had an amazing amount of integrity and set an example for all of us. It wasn’t until I was older when I fully appreciated all they gave up in their lives to have us kids and create a safe environment for us to grow and explore all of our options. With them both, whatever thing I was interested in at the moment, they would encourage me to explore it. My dad took my brother and I into New York City many times to go to comic shows. He would even haggle for me when buying comics that cost more than a dollar. I have a wonderful memory of him talking down a dealer that wanted to charge me six bucks for Conan the Barbarian #1. He got it down to half-price, explaining how much snow I had to shovel to afford even the $3.00. I remember him bringing home reams of paper, where the back of the paper was printing errors of people’s stationary. He always made sure we had supplies. My mother treated each piece of art like a Picasso, and made sure to tell me how beautiful it was and so on. Both of them showed others empathy and understanding, and I learned from their example. Every bad habit I have was learned from outside my home. The saddest part of all this for me is I lost my dad at 70, a few years before I did my first professional mainstream comic book. He would have exploded watching my career over the past 30 years. I do remember he was around for the first indie comic I inked for Eternity Comics called Ninja. He told me that my grandfather would have been so proud to see the Palmiotti name in print. I would trade everything I own to have both of them back, even for a day. Darrick: Do you have any words of advice for other individuals looking to make a career with their abilities in writing/inking? Jimmy: My most basic rule is being kind, pay it forward, and respect yourself. Slow things down and have integrity. Travel the world, read about a place you are going to, and spend time learning the history and culture. After that, like any skill, practice as much as possible. Understand that it takes years to get anywhere in this business. Shoot for the stars, but really appreciate every step you take moving forward. Be realistic and dream big. Again, practice your art and absorb what others are doing around you. You want to write? Read books. You want to draw? Draw from real life. Simple rules. Darrick: How do you spend your time on a typical workday? Jimmy: I wake up before my wife does and write the bulk of what I have to before noon. I then break for some lunch and see what I have on my plate that is needed to be done as soon as possible. I honestly am so busy, I write things down constantly. My desk is made up of pads of lists I check off as I get things done. I also like to get out for a

had quite a collection until I sold most of it to pay for the down payment on the house I currently live in. I still pick up a piece or two here and there, but the days of getting artwork at a reasonable price has gotten harder and harder since the rest of the world has caught up with my tastes. My main interest now, which is at every single opportunity, is that Amanda and I like to travel and explore. We do it at least six times a year. Go to places we have never been. Just rent a car (or when in Europe, ride the rails) and explore, learning about new places and their history. We both have an appetite for history, so we never get tired of doing this. I also enjoy technology. I am the guy buying the latest gadget to try it out. I just think there is so much out there to see and experience, it’s a shame not to go out there and do it. Darrick: What is your oldest memory? Jimmy: Within comics, my oldest memory is reading my older brother’s comic books. A lot of Superman and Archie comics. Outside of comics, it’s probably of sitting in my crib. Watching a black-&-white TV, wishing my arms were long enough to change the channels. Darrick: Tell us something about you that most people don’t know. Jimmy: Most people don’t know of my other jobs previous to advertising and creating comics. My very first job, outside of shoveling snow, was being a babysitter for a few years. I was then a security guard at a record shop, taught arts and crafts at a camp for a few years, designed menus for restaurants, did typesetting at a local newspaper, cleaned the artist bullpen at The Daily News, and worked for a nursery where I looked after thousands of plants. I also had my “off the books” jobs, including selling illegal video movies and fireworks. I’d also hustle comics by replacing barber shops with their comic book stock. I offered the stores one new comic for five old ones that they had. I think growing up in Brooklyn during the ’70s taught me I had to hustle a bit to make ends meet. I always gave a percentage to my parents, no matter where the money came from. Darrick: What comic book character do you relate to most? Jimmy: It’s actually a mix for me. Painkiller Jane and Punisher for justice, and Power Girl and Harley Quinn for my sense of humor about the world. The way I write, there is a small piece of me in each individual so I that can keep the characters grounded.

Painkiller Jane TM & © Jimmy Palmiotti & Joe Quesada.

Advertise With Us! meal, take a walk or drive, and interact with people. At the end of day, after dinner, Amanda and I usually work. Not an exciting life, but it works for us. Darrick: For new readers who may not be familiar with your work, what are some projects of yours that you would recommend to begin with? Jimmy: I would first recommend going to my site, PaperFilms.com, to learn about me and the work I have done extensively. Check out the creator-owned titles I have created. I would hit those first. For an example: Monolith, Trigger Girl, and Sex & Violence. After that, I always recommend any series I have worked on, including Painkiller Jane, Harley Quinn, Power Girl, Jonah Hex, or Deadpool. I have also written animated films, video games, and TV shows. I’d suggest maybe visiting my Wikipedia page to see what interests you. I have worked on about 2,000 comics, so there are a lot of them. Start with the list I made, though. Darrick: Who are a few of the people in the comics industry that you hold a high deal of respect for? Jimmy: The people I really look up to, some are still with us and some are gone, but the list is many. Jim Steranko is a friend and one of my heroes still with us. Frank Frazetta, Al Williamson, and especially Joe Kubert, had the most influence on what I do for a living. I also learned a lot from them as well. I also respect creators that do their own thing, create their own characters, and manage to make a living doing just that. Mike Mignola, Frank Miller, Robert Kirkman, Todd McFarlane, Terry and Robin Moore, Mark Miller, Billy Tucci, Paul Pope, and so on. These are the people that will be remembered for leaving a mark on the world, and not just being the next guy working on Spider-Man or Batman. This is very important to me as I see myself doing the same thing while I balance my work for hire. Darrick: Outside of creating stories and artwork, what are your other interests? Jimmy: I collect comic book art. I have been since the mid-1970s, and COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

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gil kane’s able partner

The Man Called… Koster

Final—and only?—interview with one-time Gil Kane business partner Larry Koster by JON B. COOKE

The Purple Robes In the late 1930s, 12-year-old New York City native Larry Koster relocated with his family to an outer borough. “We moved to Brooklyn, and lived at 1696 Park Place, on the fifth floor, and I came walking down our block, between Ralph Avenue and Howard Avenue, and there was a kid with chalk, drawing on the sidewalk… So, I walked past and said, ‘What are you doing?’ He said, ‘I’m an artist. I’m just practicing.’ I said, ‘What’s your name?’ He said, ‘Eli.’ He said, ‘You want to go to Lincoln Park and wrestle a little bit?’ I said, ‘Sure.’ He was a good head taller than me. He was about 13.” Eli, of course, was Eli Katz, the future Gil Kane. Koster continued, “When you looked across the street, at 1675 [Park Place], 24

you could see, diagonally across, right through the window and see Gil’s drawing board.” According to Koster, the pair became inseparable. “Eli and I became like brothers. We were always together.” Chuckling, Koster added, “We also became the Purple Robes. (I bet you’ve never heard of that!) My mother was a dressmaker and had a big piece of leftover cloth, and she made us two robes. We made these darts by cutting off the end of a matchstick—the igniting part—making a very fine point at the end, and have a throwing dart. We went out at night and coax the gang who hung out at the candy store, throw darts at them, and make them chase us through the alleyway, and we’d boost onto the roof and get away.” Koster then related a tale he dubbed, “the best story of all,” where a puny neighborhood kid let the two swashbucklers tie a double-braided clothesline around his waist, and, in an effort to retrieve balls laying in an inaccessible lot between tenements—balls that landed after being hit there during stickball games—they roped down the bound youngster out of the window. “We were lowering the kid down two stories to get the balls—there must have been 15 to 20 there—and, out of the blue, while we held the rope tight, there was suddenly no tension on the line! The kid went falling down the two flights! We ran to the window and screamed, ‘Are you all right?’ The kid said, ‘Yeah, I’m okay!’ How scared we were! Then he gathered up all the balls and we hauled him up, but that scared the hell out of us!” Besides horseplay, daring-do, and reckless behavior, Kane was fascinated with comics and became determined to break into the business. But Koster was less impressed with the medium than he was with his new best buddy. “I didn’t have that much cash to buy comics, so I wasn’t heavily influenced by them. I think Gil influenced me more.” Koster & Katz Comics Together, with the aid of a Pantograph—a device used to trace images—the boys made up sample comic book pages. They would swipe drawings drawn by the better artists working in comics at the time—Lou Fine, Reed Crandall, Irv Novick, and Jack Kirby, to name a few. “We used to wait every month ’til when the comic books came out and go into the store, grab one by a well-known artist, with art we wanted to copy. We went behind the telephone booth and

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Photo courtesy of Terry Koster. Black Condor TM & © DC Comics. Meteor Comics TM & © the respective copyright holder. His Name Is… Savage TM & © the estate of Gil Kane.

Above: Portrait of young Larry Koster snapped during his military service just after World War II. The draftee served in post-war Europe as a company clerk (typist) in the U.S. Army. Inset right: “Black Condor” splash page (credited to Lou Fine) and Gil Kane’s cover for the one-shot Meteor Comics, [Nov. 1945], which features a bald-faced swipe of the former, perhaps accomplished by use of a Pantograph. Below: His Name Is… Savage #1, with cover painting by Bob Foster.

Sometime in the mid-1960s, stalwart comic book artist Gil Kane, upon whom DC Comics depended for two regular super-hero titles, was feeling restless. He’d recently been hit with an epiphany that had invigorated his stylistic approach and the longtime freelancer also yearned to take a stab at a self-generated project. Since the ’50s—and years before Marvel obtained the license—one notion he coveted was to adapt Robert E. Howard’s barbarian character, Conan, to the comic book format, even going so far as to secure a license from the estate for a pair of Howard’s stories. Around that same time, Kane forged a friendship with publisher James Warren, who had made inroads on U.S. newsstands with adult-oriented horror comics that skirted the Comics Code Authority by being sold magazine-size and in black-&-white. Perhaps intrigued with the success of Warren’s Creepy and Eerie, as well as the freedom in not having to deal with the censoring Comics Code Authority, Kane developed My Name is… Savage, a b-&-w, mag-size comic book starring a murderous secret agent whose violent streak owed as much to Mickey Spillane’s Mike Hammer as the Cimmerian warrior. Released in early 1968, the one-shot is considered a progenitor of the graphic novel. His business partner in self-publishing was a childhood pal, Larry Koster, who had helped Eli Katz (Kane’s birth name) develop comic book proposals in the Golden Age. Upon historian Brian Kane (no relation) alerting me to Larry’s existence and son Terry Koster facilitating a visit, I traveled to Queens, New York, in late winter 2017, and spent a morning with the ailing artist. What follows are interview highlights woven into narrative.

Photo courtesy of Terry Koster. His Name Is… Savage TM & © the estate of Gil Kane.

discretely ripped out pages of well-drawn stories and then put the comic book back on the shelf, and we’d walk out with comic pages for us to swipe!” Before Kane would quit to pursue a professional career in the comics industry, both he and Koster attended a technical high school, the School of Industrial Art (where Koster recalls becoming friends with classmate and future comics legend Dick Giordano). Though Koster wanted to follow Kane’s path, his brothers tried to talk him out of it. “My brothers said, ‘What do you want to be an artist for? You’ve gotta make a living to support mom and pop. You’re better off working and making some money than trying to be something that you’ll never be.’” He also remembered getting little support from Kane about getting in the business, though Kane did assist his own cousin, Marty Elkin, who would have some work published in the 1950s (though, by decade’s end, Elkin ended up selling cars in Florida). “Gil was trying to help Marty get into the comics business, more than helping me, because he was a favorite cousin,” Koster explained. “Gil was always trying to get him into comics.” Still, on his own, Koster did make the rounds to the comics companies. “Oh, I made up samples—like we all did— and went around to the publishers and showed ’em. I think it was Harvey Comics, Alfred Harvey, where they gave me a script (about pilots or soldiers shooting off a cliff and there were planes in the background and Japs are coming up the cliff, and they were shooting down on them), but when I came back with the finished pages, they said the drawings were junk, so… I went on to do some backgrounds, Pantographic work for Gil. But, when he got paid, he never gave me a quarter. Let’s just say he was elusive in that way.” Mr. Fear After each served in the military, Kane and Koster came up with a character to pitch to Sheldon Mayer, the famed DC Comics editor. The concept was “Mr. Fear,” a pistol-wielding private detective, a property that owed much to Will Eisner’s The Spirit. The two produced an eight-page sample story with Koster as writer and Kane as artist. (A contemporaneous photo of the cover appears on the next page.) The pair also conceived of an Archie Andrews knock-off teenage humor strip. Alas, both notions went unsold. About “Mr. Fear,” Koster said, “I thought it was very good. But the reason why it didn’t sell was there was a very big paper shortage and they were just able to get out what they already had scheduled with paper they were allotted.” And, he added about The Spirit’s creator, “Will Eisner was the best there was. There was nobody as good as him.” Without any mention of his chum Koster, Kane told Gary Groth in his epic Comics Journal interview, “I’ve been doing material independently since I came out of the Army. My first independent effort was a book called Mr. Fear… It was completely inspired by Eisner, and I worked on it to such an extent and I was such a tenth-rate artist… but I committed

myself. When I finished the book, I took it to DC and Shelly Mayer thought I was a genius. He was taken by my conviction, because there was nothing else in the material. I never was able to bring that to any of the material he gave me, so he never liked what I did.” In the years that followed, Koster and an associate opened up a furrier design studio and, he said, “I did pretty well at it. I fell into the business through my brothers.” (In early 1962, Koster-Pearl Furs, Inc., of 150 W. 28th St., New York City, run by a Larry Koster and partners, admitted to violating the Federal Trade Commission’s “Fur Products Labeling Act of 1952” and “falsely and deceptively” invoicing fur products. The company was subsequently ordered by the FTC to cease and desist, and it evidently complied.)

Above: On the left is Eli Katz (pre-nose job) and a smidgen of Larry Koster, photographed in the late 1940s. On the drawing table is their co-creation, Mr. Fear. Inset left: Koster exhibits a Pantograph, a tool used to trace other drawings. Below: Larry Koster’s name appears in this unfinished title page intended for His Name Is… Savage #2, which was abandoned by artist Gil Kane, despite Koster’s pleas to finish work on the issue.

Along Comes… Savage! Sometime in the mid-1960s, Koster explained, “When I had my designing studio, the door opens up and who comes walking in? Gil! We embraced and sat down. He said, ‘I’ve got a good idea’ and tells me about it. I said, ‘It’s okay.’ But he said, ‘I’ve got no money.’ I said to him, ‘I’ve got $8,000 in the bank.’ And he said, ‘I’d like to open up the studio and we can get it accomplished.’ And that was His Name Is… Savage.” The business partners named their new imprint Adventure House Press, which was run out of 245 E. 63rd Street, in a recently-built Upper East Side apartment building, Regency Towers. The rent, Koster remembered, was $300 a month and Kane lived there with his associate staying over on occasion. After striking out with the most prominent national magazine distributors, Kane made a deal with lower-tier Kable News, who fronted the men a $5,000 advance to help cover printing costs. Initially, the partners spent time kicking ideas back and forth. And,

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

Above: Gil Kane’s art adorns the single Bantam paperback edition of Blackmark [1971]. Inset right: Self-portrait by Larry Koster. Below: Fuzzy photo of the cover of Mr. Fear Comics, an unsold series proposed to DC by Kane and Larry Koster during the post-war era, and a photo of young Koster, presumably taken while he was in the U.S. Army.

editor, later worked with Gil on sword-&-sorcery stories (among many other projects), including issues of Conan the Barbarian, which had been licensed to Marvel by 1970. Having put his fur design business on hiatus, Koster worked full-time on Savage, a move he’d later regret. “Investing the $8,000 was a big mistake,” he admitted. “My brother said, ‘You should never go into business with someone not willing to put their end up.’ He was right. You show your end and then put your end up. Otherwise, don’t go.” The source of Koster’s disappointment was, he said, Kane’s work ethic at the time. “Gil wasn’t the most aggressive artist,” he said. “He was a lazy artist. When we had a deadline to meet, he rarely met it.” He went on to say that Kane would miss, time and again, deadlines established by the Long Island-based pressmen for printing Savage #1. “We had to have printed 100,000 copies of His Name Is… Savage, which cost $10,000. We had been given a date to bring the final work down to the printer. It never happened because Gil was late. A month later, we needed to deliver the artwork because the presses were waiting, but that didn’t happened. Then Gil did finally meet a deadline.” Sales of His Name is… Savage #1 were abysmal. Thereafter, Kane would say they had been sabotaged by the Comics Code Authority, which, the artist alleged, spread rumors that Savage contained obscene material (it didn’t), resulting in local distributors sending back unopened bundles of the magazine. Koster recalled not meeting sales goals. “We figured we had to sell 37% to break even,” he said. “Though our distributor, Kable, distributed throughout the country, I guess we never sold the percentage.” Before getting news that their effort was a failure, the team was hard at work readying the second issue (which was set to include a Neal Adams back-up story). But, as the unfinished title page indicates, at a certain point, Kane abandoned the issue. Koster said, “We had enough money left to do #2. I said, ‘Gil, get to work.’ But he just walked away… He only worked when he needed the money.” Koster did recall that a cover for Savage’s second issue was assigned to the same painter who had rendered the cover for the first issue. “Gil told Bob Foster what to do on His Name Is… Savage #2’s cover and Bob came up with the drawings for it and they were very, very stiff. In other words, they were posed mannequins, not action like Jack Kirby would do. It was of Savage beating up two guys, a color rough. But Gil didn’t like it. Not enough action.”

* About any contact with Kane, the famed SF editor told this writer, “Yes, I knew Gil back in the ‘60s, and he asked for my help creating the character and plot for his b-&-w magazine. We had a number of discussions and I submitted several ideas/plots, but nothing clicked with him. He also had discussions—also fruitless—with [fantasy writer] Lin Carter, if memory serves, and maybe others. In the end, none of us satisfied him, and I told him he should write it himself. No one else could read his mind.” 26

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Blackmark TM & © the estate of Gil Kane. Self-portrait TM & © the estate of Larry Koster. Photos courtesy of Terry Koster.

after finishing work-day brainstorming sessions, Koster related, “Gil would say, ‘Let’s go out tonight.’ Or sometimes we stopped work in mid-afternoon and he’d say, ‘Let’s go and see a movie.’ I remember the first movie we went to see was that Charlton Heston gorilla picture, Planet of the Apes.” Koster was assigned production work, including the job of setting type. “But not by using a typesetting machine,” he explained, “but with a big electric typewriter with large type… I think we spent over $100 for it. I’d sit there typing away on it.” He would then apply the text on the final layouts and also burnish the Benday acetate shading patterns onto the finished artwork. After aborted attempts to work with writer Lee Hoffman and then Ted White,* as well as Lin Carter, Kane found his man. “When Archie Goodwin came up to help with the script of His Name Is… Savage,” Koster said, “I don’t know the reason, but on the book, Archie used a pen name, Robert Franklin. Maybe he had a contract elsewhere or something.” (Goodwin was, around that time, scripting the Iron Man title for Marvel Comics.) Kane’s assistant Roger Brand also helped to produce Savage, and he himself was assisted by girlfriend/future wife Michele Robinson. Koster said of Brand, “He was a background man. Very plain type of kid who just wanted to sit up there with us and do the line background and I’d go into the kitchen and cook lunch for them.” Once the first issue’s story was finished, it was Koster’s job to raise money to cover remaining costs. For that he traversed to familiar ground between 26th and 30th Streets, into Manhattan’s fur district. “I went with the comic pages down to the fur market, which I was very familiar with, and try to collect money. I raised $6,000 from them to invest.” Of a companion magazine for Savage that Kane did mention in subsequent years, Koster had little memory. Yet Roy Thomas, who would often collaborate with Kane at Marvel, was told it was Kane’s money partner who insisted that a contemporary series would be more commercial, rather than one set in the Hyborian Age. “Gil told me that he had first wanted to do Conan before His Name is… Savage,” Thomas said, “but that his financial partner—I don’t remember who it was—had insisted on a modern-day thing, and so then Gil wanted to do Conan as a companion magazine.” Thomas, a Marvel writer-

LARRY KOSTER’S

Larry Koster’s Savage, Hostage 444, Solaris TM & © the estate of Larry Koster.

The Age of Blackmark The business partners shuttered Adventure House, but the ever-ambitious Kane had another major project cooking: Blackmark, a science-fiction/sword&-sorcery epic the pair envisioned as a paperback book series. Koster said, “Gil met a lawyer who introduced us to Bantam Books. We made the pitch together, as I was sitting right next to Gil, when we met with the publisher, Mr. [Oscar] Dystel.” Kane later recalled that, at that meeting, the fabled publishing pioneer was ecstatic with the notion of a series of quasi-comics SF stories presented in a paperback format, so much so he expanded the deal from three books to eight. The Blackmark pitch had been produced with money that remained after the Savage debacle. The finances were, Koster said, “All a combination of the money that we had left over from the beginning.” During this period, while Koster would spend some days working with his brothers in the fur district, he would help with production on Blackmark, though his name has never been associated with the innovative property (sometimes cited as one of the earliest of graphic novels). “We got the first [Blackmark] finished and Gil says, ‘I hope you don’t mind, but the lawyer doesn’t want your name on Blackmark.’ I was going back to [furrier] designing anyway at that time. I said, ‘Okay.’ Today I’m sorry it ever happened that way, but, at the time, I left my name out of it.” As groundbreaking as Blackmark was, like Savage, it was also a poor seller. Any plans for the remaining seven books were quashed (though the already-complete second book eventually saw print in magazine form at Marvel). Koster said, “Poor distribution on the first one ended that.” And so too ended the Kane-Koster partnership.

The Later Years When asked why, aside from a credit on the title page of His Name Is… Savage #1 (where he was listed as “Managing Editor”), there is virtually no mention of Larry Koster in comics history, he replied, “Gil kept me in the background. He never introduced me as his partner, either. At that time, I didn’t care; it didn’t bother me. (Though, in the later years, everything bothers me!)… Just my family knew I was involved with Blackmark and nobody ever questioned why my name was never on it. And I never said boo.” Koster professed ambivalence about Kane as business partner—he frequently used the word “lazy” to describe the artist, someone more prone to work avoidance, one who preferred reading the paper and sneaking out to the movies— and Koster lamented more than once that, as a friend, Kane was “not a giver, but a taker.” Yet he remained impressed with the man’s talents and enjoyed working side-by-side with Kane. “The fun was commenting on Gil’s artwork,” Koster said. “He’d always finish a page, hold it up, and ask me, ‘How does it look? Does it look all right to you?’ He’d want my opinion. I’d say, ‘It’s good!’ And it was!” The two remained friends and Koster kept informed of Kane’s work over the decades and he was particularly impressed with Kane’s DC work from the 1980s and beyond.

“He did Superman, you know,” Koster exclaimed. “He did a whole [graphic] novel on Superman. Did you know that? That and The [Sword of the] Atom was good stuff!” Plus, the boyhood chums would get together in their advanced years. “I went to Gil’s 70th birthday party,” Koster recalled, “so that was a good memory. We talked about the wonderful childhood we had together, which was the truth. All the robbing and stealing! We’d be wrestling… “When Captain Blood came out, we went out and got this inch-and-a-half thick wood and make swords out of them and took the tops of tin cans, made slits in them, and used them for a fencing guard. We would spar through his old apartment.” Koster then beckoned me and proudly held out his wrist, indicating an ancient wound. “Come close over here, Jon. See? I’ve still got the scar. It has to be over 75 years old!” He beamed as he said that. Koster also radiated when speaking of Kane’s development. “Gil was a self-made artist and a very good one. At the beginning, all we did was copy with the Pantograph, and then he turned into a remarkable artist after practicing for a long, long time.”

Top: While visiting Larry Koster, Ye Ed noticed a binder with the spine reading, “His Name Is Savage,” which contained one-page episodes of “Larry Koster’s Savage,” pages he produced for a web series. At left is the first page, center is the binder, right is Ye Ed and Larry. Above: Koster’s 2000 novel, Hostage 444, included a character named “Gilbert Kane of the Daily News.” Inset center: Larry Koster, on Mar. 12, 2017. Below: Page from Koster’s unpublished graphic novel, Solaris, which son Terry said he just might revise one of these days.

Postscript Larry Koster, a man grateful to share about his minor role in comics history, passed away less than two weeks after this interview. And it’s sad, too, that our talk about his other creative work—as painter, novelist, and hopeful graphic novelist—aren’t discussed (though some examples illustrate this feature). But sufficed to say that Koster, drawn into the orbit of the brilliant Gil Kane, had his own wealth of ambition and, bless ’im, like the Purple Robes of yore, he was a man willing to take some hair-raising risks!

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

comics in the library

Illustrated Classics!

Recommendations for great world literature adapted into the comic book form

Above: Dick Giordano’s vivid cover for Stoker’s Dracula #1 [Oct. 2004]. Below: Writer Jeph Loeb and artist Tim Sale put the Sentinel of Liberty and his trusty sidekick through their “color” treatment with Captain America: White (this cover from #1 [Nov. 2015]).

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All items © the respective copyright holders.

profound historical novel. The third selection is Lois Lowery’s dystopian novel The Giver, adapted and illustrated by P. Craig Russell. It’s not surprising that Russell does the book considerable justice. He’s been adapting the works of Neil Gaiman and Rudyard Kipling, as well as dozens of classical operas into comic book form since nearly the beginning of his career. And he does a beautiful job here, delivering a faithful script and his usual stunning artwork. The art is mostly in blue-tinged black-&-white—the latter a necessary component of the novel itself—but when color does appear, it’s done with subtle grace that manages to make the color pop while somehow causing to it to not overpower the b-&-w artwork surrounding it. The graphic adaptation is also much more faithful to the novel than the 2014 film. The film pushed in a teenage romance that doesn’t really exist in either the novel or by RICHARD J. ARNDT CBC Contributing Editor this adaptation. The film also lost sight of Jonas’ feeling of betrayal when he discovers how undesirables are The fall of 2018 through summer 2019 saw the release “released” from their happy community. This adaptation is of four adaptations of classic adult and young adult novalso on target with Lowery’s ambiguous “do they escape els. My library has picked up all four of them, so I thought or don’t they” ending. There are also two mini-interviews I’d talk a little bit about them. The first two came out within with Lowery and Russell at the end of the book. Lowery’s a week or two of each other, the first being Ari Folman and answers seem to imply that she suspects that Russell David Polonsky’s adaptation of Anne Frank’s The Diary of had been too faithful to her book, while Russell ponders a Young Girl, called here Anne Frank’s Diary: The Graphic on whether this adaptation will be the first book of his to Adaptation, which is a real winner. Folman’s adaptation be banned from school libraries. He’s right to consider is true to the original and doesn’t fudge with some of it. What is perfectly okay in prose can freak parents out Anne’s more controversial entries in the diary, whether completely when it’s seen in illustrative art. This adaptainvolving her growing interest in sex or her not always tion is solid storytelling. kind comments about the people she was forced to live The fourth adaptation was briefly mentioned in a with day in and day out. Mind you, she wrote this diary as previous column. I’m writing this the day after receiving a young teenager, never knowing that anyone else—never Wayne Vansant’s adaption of Erich Maria Remarque’s mind millions of readers!—would one day have access to World War I classic, All Quiet on the Western Front. I’m her most personal thoughts. Still, I’m impressed with the quite pleased with what I see. Vansant’s artwork isn’t steady and forthright script and art. quite as detailed as it usually is but his script and, again, In a book intended for teenagers, it would the water color-styled coloring is extremely helpful to have easy to err on the side of “safe,” espeunderstanding and enjoying this story. It’s worth noting cially considering the “nimrodedness” of young that bad or garish coloring can really hurt adaptations that adult novel critics who apparently believe that aren’t all slam-bang action. They don’t do any favors for no child should have access to anything that graphic novels in general either. might cause them to think and make judgments Remarque’s soulful anti-war novel was first published based on their own observations rather than in 1929 and made into an Academy Award-winning film in what their parents or society in general may 1930. Joseph Goebbels and his Nazi thugs tried to disrupt think. Polonsky’s artwork is also quite nice. I the initial screening of that film when it arrived in Germaespecially like the way he has the heavy-lidded ny, in December of that year, by throwing stink bombs into Anne squint so often—possibly an indication the audience and claiming it was a lie perpetrated by the that she may be near-sighted with no access to Jews. When the Nazis came to power in 1932, the book corrective glasses. was banned and destroyed in Germany. That alone makes The second is Fred Fordham’s adaptation it a worthwhile addition to school and public libraries caof To Kill a Mockingbird. I’ve read Harper Lee’s tering to an older audience. However, after some thought, novel numerous times over the years, but this I decided that certain of the scenes, mostly dealing with graphic adaptation still managed to surprise me rough comments by the soldiers and involving prostitutes, with bits and scenes from the source that I’d are just too mature for my 12- to 13-year-old audience. forgotten since my last reading. This truly great Don’t let that stop you from picking up the book yourself, novel has gotten an equally great adaptation, however. with Fordham’s narrative and his graceful—and All four of these adaptive graphic novels are winners extremely well-colored—art making me tear and I’m very happy to have them, as well as the original up in nearly the exact same places as the novel novels, in either my personal or school library. Do did. I would cheerfully recommend this book, as your community a favor and donate a copy of one well as the original, for any parent wanting their of them to your local public and school library. child to read genuine literature in the form of a You’ll be glad ya did.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

Amazo, Composite-Superman TM & © DC Comics. Mimic, Super-Adaptoid, and Super-Skrull TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

AN ALL-NEW CHAPTER IN THE EPIC WORLD OF ELFQUEST ELFQUEST!!

PINI, E N DY W M I, FRO D PIN R A H C T, RI STR AI S. Y N N SO I E KO AT E P N D N A

AVAILABLE AT YOUR LOCAL COMICS SHOP To find a comics shop in your area, visit comicshoplocator.com For more information or to order direct visit DarkHorse.com. Elfquest art copyright 2020 Warp Graphics, Inc. Elfquest, its logos, characters, situations, all related indicia, and their distinctive likenesses are trademarks of Warp Graphics, Inc. All rights reserved. Dark Horse Comics® and the Dark Horse logo are trademarks of Dark Horse Comics LLC, registered in various categories and countries. All rights reserved.

DISCOVER THE LEGEND OF ELFQUEST! ALLIANCES ARE FORGED, ENEMIES DISCOVERED, AND SAVAGE BAT TLES FOUGHT IN THIS EPIC FANTASY A D V E N T U R E , H A N D S O M E LY P R E S E N T E D B Y D A R K H O R S E B O O K S !

THE COMPLETE ELFQUEST Volume 1: The Original Quest 978-1-61655-407-1 | $24.99

ELFQUEST: THE ORIGINAL QUEST GALLERY EDITION 978-1-61655-411-8 | $125.00

AVAILABLE AT YOUR LOCAL COMICS SHOP OR BOOKSTORE To find a comics shop in your area, visit comicshoplocator.com. For more information or to order direct visit DarkHorse.com ElfQuest® © Warp Graphics, Inc. Dark Horse Books® and the Dark Horse logo are registered trademarks of Dark Horse Comics LLC. All rights reserved. (BL 8050)

ELFQUEST: THE FINAL QUEST Volume 1 978-1-61655-409-5 | $17.99 Volume 2 978-1-61655-410-1 | $17.99 Volume 3 978-1-50670-138-7 | $17.99 Volume 4 978-1-50670-492-0 | $17.99

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Sunlight and Shadow © Warp Graphics, Inc.

This spread: Wendy Pini’s diptych Sunlight and Shadow, published as a limited edition print in 2004.

I have long admired Wendy Pini. Yes, of course, she is a beautiful woman with a spellbinding gaze near impossible to break from when she looks at you. And, yup, during the 1970s’ convention scene, the woman was an absolute hit as the quintessential Red Sonja cosplayer—this was way before that was even a word!—back when young Ms. Pini would positively be possessed by the sword-slinging maiden. But my admiration is more than about surface charms. Much more. I’ve always wanted to converse with her about WaRP’s beginnings in the late ’70s, as her and husband Richard’s self-publishing outfit was among the first of the independents to emerge during those nascent days of the direct market. The couple had established an original property, ElfQuest, one reminiscent of the work of J.R.R. Tolkien and also of sword & sorcery, which had become a popular genre in 1970s comics. Along with Jack Katz’s First Kingdom and Dave Sim’s Cerebus, the Pinis’ ElfQuest was a trailblazer in a new brave realm of comics, one outside the mainstream and full of promise. So, over the years, I have chatted with the couple at shows, hoping they might find time, but this and then that got in the way. Then, as with so very

many relationships I have in this world, it was through a mutual affection for Jack Kirby’s work that a stronger connection was made between us three. (Check out Wendy’s piece in Kirby100, about her appreciation of the King and his Inhumans creation, Triton.) But it was this past summer when things suddenly shifted to high gear as the couple (married for almost 48 years!) met with me at San Diego Comic-Con and a feature on Wendy in CBC was suggested. That fall, I went to Poughkeepsie, New York, and we had an in-person, one-on-one interview. What follows is an amazingly frank conversation with a fearless interview subject willing to discuss deeply personal matters, some which helped to form her as a comic book creator. After our talk, which took place at Richard’s home with him helpfully within earshot to answer a question now and again, and a quick dinner (when I briefly interviewed Richard), I drove back to Rhode Island overwhelmed with this sense of absolute awe for Wendy Fletcher Pini: survivor, pioneer, and true American original. Hers is a rare and wondrous talent worth celebrating.

— Jon B. Cooke

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

“From Elfland to Poughkeepsie” © the estate of Ursula Le Guin.

Top: Richard Pini snapped this pic of Ye Ed and Wendy beginning their conversation. Above: Legendary fantasy author Ursula Le Guin wrote an essay entitled “From Elfland to Poughkeepsie,” which discusses her genre of choice and pedestrian writing styles. The piece eventually prompted Poughkeepsie resident Richard Pini to write her and say, actually, ElFQuest was being produced in that New York city. The writer then sent back a convivial reply.

Comic Book Creator: Hi, Wendy. Wendy Pini: [Laughs] Are you comfortable? CBC: I am, thank you. It is Oct. 6th, Sunday, and we are in Poughkeepsie and we shall dispense with the Ursula Le Guin aspersion about Po-skip-see… Wendy: Po-keep-see. CBC: Po-skip-see, as I said as a child. I grew up not far away, in Westchester county, when I was a kid. Wendy: If I remember right, Richard wrote to Ursula and said, “Believe it or not, we produce a comic about elves in Poughkeepsie.” [laughs] “From Elfland to Poughkeepsie.” CBC: And she wrote back! That was wonderful! Wendy: Yes! CBC: That’s very cool. I’d like to start even before the beginning. If you could talk about your family and where they’re from and, you know, a general idea of a background and where you came from, creatively. How it all informs who you are. Wendy: That’s a difficult topic. CBC: Is it? Wendy: Yes. But I will do it. I think it’s good. I think it’s good for other creators to hear that, if you come from a tough background, that’s often the inspiration for your creativity because creativity becomes a coping mechanism. So… I was born on the wrong side of the blankets in San Francisco and adopted about six weeks later into a very difficult family. CBC: Dysfunctional? Wendy: Yeeeeah. They lived in Gilroy, California, so I grew up there, about 70 miles south of San Francisco. It’s the heartland of San Francisco. Prunes and garlic! Prunes and garlic is what we grew! We also had a big cannery and, if they were canning tomatoes and the Gentry plant was processing garlic, you’d go [sniffs] and you’d smell pizza every morning! There were a lot of smells because of the sewer farm too. [Jon laughs] It was very agricultural, very rich, very fertile, very, you know… CBC: Farmy! Wendy: Farmy. And the house was out in the middle of it. It was flanked on three sides by open fields where they continually rotated crops. We had no neighbors. No close neighbors anyway. So it was a very isolated situation and I didn’t have any children to play with. My brother was six years older than me and he was also adopted. There were just difficulties in the family. Everybody had a lot of trouble getting along with everybody else. For that reason, at least as far as I can remember, I became a kid who was always fantasizing, always imagining other places to be and other people to be with, other types of families or tribes.

CBC: Did you have television? Wendy: I had television and animated cartoons were my best friends. I just was wild about cartoons and actually practiced drawing… I’m untrained. I’m not formally trained as an artist at all. I just sort of trained myself. I started out with cartooning, which was difficult in itself because my parents—particularly my mother—thought that comics and cartoons were trash. So she did just about everything she could think of to discourage me from watching cartoons. She either wanted me to get outside and play… by myself [chuckles]—or she wanted me to work around the ranch. It was a completely functioning ranch. My father ran a prune orchard. CBC: That’s plums, right? Wendy: Plums, right. So I knew the process, the seasons, the blossoms, the growth of the fruit, and how the orchard changed over the years. I got very connected to nature out there but it was a solitary experience. CBC: Were you loved? Wendy: Was I loved? [Pause] That’s a powerful question to ask, Jon. When people don’t love themselves, it’s very difficult for them to love somebody else. I think that my brother and I were both adopted to try to make the marriage better. My brother was adopted six years ahead of me and from him I learned that the adoption agency had my parents under observation because there was apparently some doubt as to whether they were qualified to adopt another child. Which is why it took that long. CBC: So did anyone from the adoption agency ever come while… ? Wendy: No, I never saw anyone. This was back in 1951 and by no means were they as watchful as they are today. My parents, also, just put on a very, very good face. I’m sure that anyone in the circle that they ran in would say that they were pillars of the community. My father was on the school board, he was a member of the county planning commission, he was a staunch Barry Goldwater Republican. [laughter] CBC: You were in a world of migrants out there. Wendy: That’s another thing. That’s how I think I developed a feeling about tribe: because the migrant workers would come every year to pick my father’s crop. And I used to love to go out there and be with them. And my parents did not want me to do that. CBC: But your mother told you to get out of the house! Wendy: [Chuckles] They told me to get out of the house but they did not want me to fraternize with them. But I did anyway. Because there were kids out there and they also cooked out there. They brought their little stoves. They made delicious beans and tortillas! [exaggerated voice] I loved that! I just got a sense that… I’m going to use the word “brown” people… They’re people, darn it! But I got the feeling that brown people knew a lot more about family than what my family knew about it and I think my sense of tribe came from hanging out with migrant workers. CBC: And being slightly outside of their tribe, slightly detached… ? Wendy: Sure! I mean, I don’t know what they thought of me, this white kid whose father they worked for. And, you know, he wasn’t very nice to them. He didn’t provide them any kind of adequate living facilities. A lot of them stayed overnight and went to work early the next day. There was a shack out on the other end of the orchard that had no running water… It had an outhouse and that was about it. But, back in the ’50s, that was acceptable. That’s the way migrant workers were treated in a lot of farming communities. CBC: Well, the government had the “Wetback” program back then. That was the official name of the operation, not just used as a derogatory term. Wendy: Right. So that’s what I grew up around. I was an escapist. I fantasized. My paternal grandmother was a teacher. She was quite elderly as my parents adopted both

Photos © the respective copyright holders.

me and my brother late. So I had a very elderly grandmother who also had a house on the ranch property. She had been a teacher and she had a marvelous library. She had a lot of gorgeous fairy tale books, books illustrated by Willy Pogany, Aubrey Beardsley, and Arthur Rackham. I spent a lot of time over there studying that artwork and wanting to copy it. So, I found inspiration in fantasy. CBC: On the property! Wendy: On the property, right, because of my grandmother. CBC: Were you ever able to go to the public library? Wendy: Oh yes. As a matter of fact, my mother was really active with the Library Association because she had a real affinity for history. She was particularly fascinated with family history (which I find very ironic because our family was so difficult). But she loved to research all her relatives way, way back who I guess did have a lot to do with the foundation of the Gilroy community. I think the ancestral name was Thomas. I think that part of it came from my father’s side. If you think about it, it’s only natural that our family would have difficulties because my mother’s father abandoned her and her sister, and her mother, when my mother was, I think, around 13 years old. He just deserted, and so the women were left to take care of each other and raise each other at a time when that was really, really hard. My mother was born in 1913. CBC: Before the Depression. California was starting to boom. Wendy: It was, yes. CBC: Was substance abuse an issue in the family history? Alcohol or—? Wendy: Gee, I have no idea. They didn’t tell me much. I was never allowed to meet my father’s father. And on my father’s side it was even rougher because he apparently had to kick his own father off the ranch, I think because of substance and physical abuse toward my grandmother. CBC: Oh! Wendy: So my father kicked his own father out of the house and then took over running the ranch. Then he married my mother and… CBC: He could’ve been in his 20s when he did this? Wendy: Yes. Very young. CBC: Wow… Wendy: So, on both sides, they had really strong issues with abusive parents. CBC: Were they abusive to each other? Wendy: Yes, emotionally. Emotional abuse was the main thing. CBC: So, you were on tenterhooks when you were in the house? Wendy: Oh, I’m walking on eggshells. Every day. CBC: Was there one you were more peaceful with? Wendy: Well, because my father was out working a lot,

my mother and I had a difficult bond, but I suppose you could say we were closer. CBC: You had moments. Wendy: Right. CBC: And also an affinity for books helps, right? Wendy: Yes, I didn’t have any affinity for the family history because I… you know, I always knew I was adopted. CBC: They always told you that you were adopted? Wendy: Yes, I think they told me when I was three or four years old. CBC: How did you feel about that? Wendy: I think it was the right thing to do. Yeah, I never objected to that, but they wouldn’t tell me anything about my biological mother… That’s the thing. They told me I was adopted, but they wouldn’t give me any information about her. CBC: Do you think it was good, because it was a difficult family, to say… that it gave you a little bit of an emotional “out,” so to speak, to be at least distanced from it? Wendy: It made me identify with the changeling fantasy. You know how the elves… I’ve loved elves and fairies since I was about two years old. CBC: In your imagination, do the characters live in secret? Wendy: Well, they’re surreptitious. CBC: They hide from the humans? Wendy: They hide from the humans. They have their own thoughts and their own ways of doing things and it’s eldritch, it’s very different. It’s “other.” I put the word other in quotes. Otherness was always a big deal to me. I always identified with the other, the strange, the fantastic. That felt more like my world than where I was at. So I started telling stories really, really early. CBC: Telling stories to yourself? Wendy: Well, kind of, because I had two parents who didn’t go for fantasy. CBC: And your older brother was so much older. Did you have any connection with him? Wendy: That was tough. Because he was gay. And you can imagine growing up in a Barry Goldwater Republican family in the ’50s, the hassles between him and the parents… CBC: You knew he was gay? Wendy: No. No, I didn’t know it ’til long after. CBC: But they had friction? Wendy: Yes. He left home when he

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

Above: The rural town of Gilroy, California, where grew up Wendy Fletcher. This Main Street view was likely snapped in the 1950s. Called the “heartland of San Francisco,” the agricultural locale is renowned for its main harvests of prunes and garlic. The latter is celebrated with Gilroy’s annual garlic festival, held since 1979. (It was site of a tragic mass shooting in 2019.)

Below: Typical dilapidated shack housing Mexican migrant workers in California, perhaps not unlike those who picked garlic during the time Wendy grew up in Gilroy.

San Francisco years later and, in the 2000s, was when he and I really started communicating again and started getting to know each other and, like, almost becoming friends. Again, he would never talk about his lifestyle. Scott did not understand what a friend he had in me because I’ve always kind of been super-friendly towards LGBTQ. The very first novella I wrote was what’s called in Japan a Yaoi. Those are stories about beautiful male, gay characters in love and their trials. [laughs] Sixteen-year-old girls love to fantasize about stuff like that so I think if my brother had known how friendly I was towards gay people I think we could have had a closer relationship. But he was always… he led what I would call a fugitive life. And then… let’s see… Richard…? Was it 2006 that my brother died? He owned some property in Palm Springs. He ended up in San Francisco renovating a beautiful Victorian house on Castro Street and Richard and I had a couple of Thanksgivings with him. CBC: Oh, good! Wendy: Yeah. Then one day we got a phone call. We were getting ready for Thanksgiving, but we were gonna have this one at our house in Los Angeles. We got a phone call from a neighbor who said, “I’ve been trying to reach Scott. I haven’t heard from him and his answering machine is full.” And we hadn’t called Scott yet, so we called and his answering machine was full, and that was very unusual for him. We started to get very worried so then the police were called by the neighbor. The police had to break into his house. His dogs were there and… [pauses] and he had passed away. He had been gone for about ten days. But he didn’t have anybody he was close to in the neighborhood so there was nobody to check on him. So, that’s how Richard and I spent that Thanksgiving, going up to San Francisco and taking care of… [sighs] everything. CBC: Wow. Wendy: Yeah. CBC: A sister to the end, huh? Wendy: Not really. Like I said, we were just starting to become friends. I don’t know how interested he was in my work. I mean, ElfQuest had been out many years, but he never said anything about it. CBC: What was the fate of your parents? Wendy: My mother passed away when I was 26 years old, just a very few years after I married Richard. She had a heart attack and died in her sleep. CBC: How old was she? Wendy: She was 64. She was not old. But she was a very, very unhappy person, and had to deal with high blood pressure and stress. I think she was an undiagnosed manic-depressive. CBC: Was she angry by nature?

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Ruby Shepherd TM & © Wendy Pini.

Above: “The Ruby Shepherd” was, as Richard Pini describes in his Line of Beauty: The Art of Wendy Pini, “Wendy’s first attempt at an epic fantasy tale of adventure, love, and loss… and it was also her first foray in what later would be widely recognized and was what’s called in Japan a yaoi, the manga that loosely translates as ‘boys’ love.” Below: Early on, Wendy Fletcher developed a love of dance. Bottom: 1956 kindergarten class of Gilroy’s Eliot School, which included Wendy.

was 17 and joined the Coast Guard. I was 12. I knew that there were whispers, tensions, and all that, and talk about him behind his back. That was another thing my family did. See, you asked about love and love was a very tricky thing in our family but… we didn’t even like each other and that was even harder. CBC: Oh, I know. Wendy: Sometimes it’s better to know that… CBC: Oh, I know. I love my kids, but sometimes I don’t like them. [laughs] Wendy: Yeah. And so, if you grow up in a family where nobody really likes each other or trusts each other, you have to find your own way. They didn’t like my brother because he was different. CBC: Was he creative? Wendy: Not the same. Let me couch that in music. My brother did something very unusual for those days. He collected old 78 records. [Jon reacts audibly] I can see that you know that… CBC: Like Robert Crumb. Wendy: Yes. That was the part about my brother that I really loved because I enjoyed listening to some of that music, particularly classical music like Mendelssohn or Wagner on these old, scratchy 78 records. That’s kind of where I got my education in classical music, But then he would also play those crazy jazz pieces that were often in Warner Brothers cartoons. And because I was a cartoon addict, I knew all that stuff! I would hear these familiar themes and that’s where I learned that it was music from the 1920s. So there was kind of a relationship there that we both enjoyed. CBC: Did you stay in touch? Wendy: [Sighs, long pause] My brother left home and joined the Coast Guard and never really came back. He also never really came out. In those times, it was really, really hard. He could never bring anybody home. I never knew much about him and he kind of disappeared out of my life after I married Richard. I would hear from him occasionally. I think he was in New Orleans for a while and had a serious substance abuse problem. [long pause] He came back to

Alakazam, Magic Boy TM & © the respective copyright holders.

Wendy: Just mad at the world. And not happy at all about Richard! [laughs] Richard’s parents didn’t like me and my parents didn’t like him, so it was a very Romeo and Juliet kind of thing. But thank God I learned Italian in college because that got me in good with Richard’s family. They were very staunch Roman Catholic Italians, so learning Italian was a smart move. I actually had more of an experience of family with Richard’s than I did with my own. CBC: When did your father pass away? Wendy: Oh, he lived to the ripe old age of, I think, 91 or 92! He passed away somewhere in the mid-2000s. CBC: Did you stay in contact with him? Wendy: Sort of. There was never a close relationship. CBC: So there was no sense of regret that came from them or any coming to terms or… ? Wendy: Well, to get a little bit deeper with this if you wanna go there, there was a substance abuse issue with my father. He was an alcoholic. In the mid-’80s, I went through the Adult Children of Alcoholics program… CBC: ACA is a great program. Wendy: Because I was having a lot of issues within the family and I could no longer discuss them with my mother, but I knew somehow I needed to take care of what was going on with me emotionally. I mean, ElfQuest was certainly helping! [laughs] Our lead character, Cutter, is like the ultimate adult child of alcoholics. His dad, Bearclaw, is in many ways a caricature of my dad. You know, a real rogue, a rouster… just… a troublemaker. [laughs] CBC: Was your dad a brawler? Wendy: Not a brawler. He was a womanizer and… I take that back. I think in his early days, he was a brawler or Below: Wendy Fletcher at around five-years-old at her drawing table.

he wouldn’t have been able to kick his own father off the ranch. CBC: Yeah, that’s real Oedipal. [laughs] Wendy: Yeah! That is a test of manhood, boy! CBC: [Laughs] For a son to throw his father off his own farm…? Wendy: Yeah! And basically, becoming the man of the house after. My father had a real strong sense of responsibility, which is why I think he and my mother stayed married. When I was in my teens, she would often talk to me about her fantasy of divorcing him and maybe going to Carmel, California, and starting a bed-and-breakfast or something like that, and I was, like, “Why don’t you do it?!” CBC: [Laughs] Here’s a bus ticket. Wendy: See, I loved Carmel and I was imagining… That’s a whole ’nother life. See, again, imagining different directions one could go became my idea of how… If you find yourself in a stuck situation where nothing is working, you don’t just drown in that. You don’t just fall into depression. You try to imagine a way out, the next step, and that is a strong theme in all my storytelling, characters stuck in a terrible situation where they could literally die. “Okay, what’s the way out?” CBC: It’s a quest, right? Wendy: It’s a quest. It’s a quest for what’s better for you? What would keep the tribe going? That’s what you go toward. CBC: It’s hope. Wendy: That’s hope! CBC: Where do you think you got that from? It’s a very dysfunctional situation, tough love… It’s not necessarily coming from a parent, but obviously you have this core goodness that comes out in the work. Where do you think you got it from?

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

Above: At left are Wendy’s adoptive parents in front of her childhood home and, at right, Wendy and her dad before he passed in 2001. Below: Two animated movies that impacted a young Wendy Fletcher.

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All characters TM & © Hanna-Barbera Productions, Inc. Fan art © Wendy Pini.

that had sort of a family theme so I immediately got into the Fantastic Four, because really it was family first with them! They were super-heroes and they had powers, but it was the family drama that I was interested in so I just loved that and I loved the fantasy element on top of it. That’s how Jack Kirby became my… my sensei! [laughs] CBC: The Triton connection, too, with him belonging to the Royal Family. Wendy: The Inhumans! First of all, it was the Hidden Land. [pauses] The Hidden Land. The Great Refuge. The place where you go away from the violence and trouble of the world of humans, who will attack you because you’re different. You go to the Great Refuge, you see. Attilan. And the Inhumans were all very close to fairies and elves. They had animal-like characteristics. Gorgon was a faun, Triton was a merman. Black Bolt was a raven! He was like a bird creature with this voice that he didn’t dare use. Medusa was kind of like the medium between humans and her race because she could pass for human if she wanted. The others couldn’t! They were too different. Of course, I latched onto Triton. He was the most different. He was the one that was in the most danger, if they ever went out into human society, so I identified with him. CBC: Did you have a liking for animals? Wendy: Very much! CBC: Pets? Did you have any? Wendy: I had pets. We had cats and dogs, yeah. We went through a long series of ’em. Stray cats! CBC: Just mousers that would show up? Wendy: Yeah, my father loved to have stray cats around to mouse. You know, on a ranch…? On a big, dirty ranch? CBC: You gotta get the vermin! Wendy: Yeah, and there was pretty much always a dog Above: Teen Wendy loved the Was it God-given, do you think? around. The dog my parents ended up with, that’s a story! Saturday morning adventure Wendy: I think it was God-given because I didn’t have an I’m really proud of this. I went to Pitzer College, in Clarecartoon series Jonny Quest, adult in my life that had my back. There were cousins... mont, California. I inherited ... I don’t know if this girl was an designed by Doug Wildey, the CBC: What about school? exchange student. Anyway, she was from Italy and she was legendary artist whom Wendy Wendy: School was… [laughs deeply] The Gilroy school there at Pitzer College and she, against the rules, had a little and Richard befriended on the system, especially good ol’ Gilroy High, was pure jock. chihuahua, a little reindeer chihuahua. And, I don’t know, con circuit. Below: Unfinished CBC: Bullying? she had to leave, and she couldn’t take the dog with her. So, Wendy drawing of various Wendy: Yes, I experienced bullying because I was differagainst the rules, I took the dog! And I had him in my room Hanna-Barbera characters. ent. I was weird. My nickname was “Fairy Head,” y’know? and, you know, I hid him. Other students kind of helped me CBC: Why? Did somebody hide him ’cause they liked him. He kind of became the dorm catch you drawing fairies or dog. something? CBC: What was his name? Wendy: It was very easy Wendy: His name was Poquito de Progresso the Second! to catch me. I didn’t like CBC: The Second. [chuckles] school. I was very advanced Wendy: Mmm-hmm. But I called him Poquito. I smuggled in my drawing, even at 11, him everywhere. I smuggled him into movie theaters under 12, 13 years old. You can my jacket. He was my little buddy. But when Richard and look at my work from back I got engaged and I went back East in 1972 to marry him then and see it. I just did and live there—again, pretty much against my parents’ it, practiced it so much objections—I asked them to take care of Poquito. “No, no, that by the time I was 17 no! Not gonna have him. Never! No!” But they sometimes or 18 years old, my work babysat him for me and, apparently, by doing that, they was… [laughs] Okay, this decided they liked him, so finally they gave in, and they took was… You remember the Poquito, and I went back east. Richard’s parents wanted old Grantray-Lawrence a Roman Catholic wedding. [laughs] You know. That was super-hero cartoons? The the way they would accept all this. So I had to go through Marvel cartoons where they all that folderal. My parents were atheists and I was not would take Jack Kirby’s religious at all. I was spiritual! art and move an arm or a CBC: You didn’t go to church at all? mouth, you know? Or Doug Wendy: I did go to church. I was made to! I was raised Wildey’s art or whoever nominally in the Episcopal religion but it kinda went [makes (’cuz I think he contributed negative noise], y’know? It just went straight over my head. to the Sub-Mariner)? I was It didn’t take. glued to those! I discovCBC: When did you stop going? ered Marvel around age Wendy: Oh, gosh. When I was in high school. After my 16, and much to especially grandmother… See, it was my grandmother who took me. my mother’s disapproval I I would go to church with her. And the reason I was sent to began to collect the comic church is because my parents thought it would look bad if books. I was especially I didn’t go. Because they were both atheists and we never interested in any comic talked about religion at home.

Fan art © Wendy Pini.

Wendy: Yes. Never actual sexual abuse, but he said things he should not have said and that was bad enough. CBC: That’s sounds creepy as sh*t. Wendy: Yeah. So my mother dressed me in A-line skirts, very plain blouses. Even in high school. After I discovered comics and discovered comics fandom, I started getting involved with costuming. I discovered there were comic book conventions so, around the age of 17 or 18, I got exposed to fandom. And it was… like… a breath of pure oxygen to discover that there were people out there who not only thought like me, but appreciated what I appreciated and would appreciate my artwork! I started to tell you the story about when I was 17 years

This page: It was an issue of Fantastic Four, #36 [Mar. 1965] (cover by Kirby/Stone at far left) that ignited Wendy’s interest in comics and specifically Jack Kirby’s work. The 1960s Grantray-Lawrence Marvel Super-Heroes cartoons only increased her devotion. Above is a 1966 house ad. Below is Wendy’s depiction of fave Hawkeye and Captain America. Bottom left is FF Annual #5 [Nov. ’67] pin-up by Kirby/Sinnott.

Fantastic Four, other characters TM & © Marvel characters, Inc.

CBC: [Laughs] Wha—? Wendy: You see what I was exposed to so you can imagine what life is like for me now with Donald Trump! You know? Triggering every trigger I have [laughs] about hypocrisy and hate and prejudice. It’s amazing! CBC: He was barking at that reporter the other day and it just instantly triggered me about my own father, who was a super-bully to me, and it was like… Wendy: Oh, you had a bully dad, too! CBC: Emotionally abusive, but he wasn’t around much, so it wasn’t a constant. Wendy: No wonder you can ask me these questions. CBC: I’m also a recovering alcoholic and I’m also in a 12step program, so that helps a lot, too. Wendy: So you know about Adult Children of Alcoholics. CBC: Yes. Both my parents were alcoholics. My mother’s recovering. My brother goes to ACA and loves it. Wendy: Gimme five! [Wendy and Jon high-five] Gimme five, we’re survivors then. CBC: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Wendy: No wonder you can ask me these questions… ’cuz I was a little startled at first. But I like this. I like this. CBC: Good. I mean, it’s the stories of our lives, right. Now we’re formed and all that. CBC: Did you ever try to find out about your original parents? Wendy: Yeah. I would say, in the first few years we were married, there came a moment where we did a little searching about me and… Richard: The records are sealed. They might still be sealed at the State House in California, but we were able to find out a few things. Wendy: The sperm donor, there’s just no clue. My mother was very young. CBC: Like, a teenager? Wendy: Well, a little older than that because she was working as a teacher. The reason we can’t find her is that there’s no way to know her name because she was adopted by her half-sister and they don’t know the half-sister’s name. Richard: But you decided to let it go anyway. Wendy: Yeah, I don’t care. She was here to get me here and the rest of it was up to me. [laughs] CBC: Were you pretty when you were in high school? Wendy: I could have been! But the other aspect of it was that my father was inappropriate. Alcohol made him… CBC: He was inappropriate with you?

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Above: Lovely portrait of Triton, of Attilan royal lineage, as drawn by Wendy Fletcher, who sent this colored piece of the Marvel character to Richard along with her first letter to her future husband and creative collaborator. Below: In her own copy of Fantastic Four #46 [Jan. ’66], Wendy made refinements to a Kirby/Sinnott panel.

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Triton TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Fan art © Wendy Pini.

old and discovered the Grantray-Lawrence cartoons. I don’t know how we got off the subject. So there are these super-hero cartoons on TV and I’m crazy about ’em and I wrote to the Grantray-Lawrence people via the local TV channel that they were broadcast on. You know. I thought I’d take a shot. And I sent some of my drawings of the Marvel super-heroes. I think it was The Avengers. Hawkeye, Captain America, Scarlet Witch. For a 17-year-old year old, they were very advanced, very elaborate drawings. I think we still have ’em downstairs somewhere. Lo and behold, weeks later, I get this envelope from Grantray-Lawrence!

And, in the envelope, are Xeroxed images of some model charts and a nice letter from a woman who, I guess, was one of the producers. [laughs] She said, “We get so little feedback on what we do that we really appreciated your beautiful letter. Thank you so much! Your artwork impressed us so much that we have sent it on to Stan Lee.” [swooning sound] CBC: [Laughs] And you knew that name! Wendy: A 17-year-old Marvel fan is told that her artwork has been sent on to Stan Lee. I… I could barely hold it together. CBC: Wow, Wendy! Wendy: That was one of the most… [deep breath] So! A few weeks after that, I get a letter from Sol Brodsky. You know that name? CBC: Of course. Marvel’s production manager. Wendy: [Laughs] “Of course”! And I also get communication from Linda Fite. CBC: [Chuckles] I just had dinner with her last Sunday. Wendy: Is she still around? CBC: I love her. Yes, she lives in Kerhonkson. Yeah, she’s still… Wendy: I’d like to meet her in person someday. CBC: I went to dinner with her and Barry Windsor-Smith. Wendy: That would be so cool! CBC: She’s a good friend. Wendy: Well, then you know! The letter from Sol Brodsky was, “We are so impressed with your work. Would you like to work up some samples of pages?” I’m 17-years-old and I get an offer from Marvel Comics. CBC: Holy sh*t, Wendy. Wendy: I showed this to my parents and I think for one of the first times, they took me seriously. Like there is some worth to all this cartoon and fantasy stuff she does because somebody else is recognizing it. CBC: And it started with TV. Wendy: It’s all tied together. My mother insisted I take typing because she thought I might be a secretary. They had no dreams for me. CBC: ’Cause they didn’t dream themselves. Wendy: No! And it was the times, too. It was the early to mid-’60s and the people from their generation, who grew up in the Depression era, they had no dreams for women, for a young girl. My mother was a housewife all her life. That was her destiny. She had no dreams… for me. CBC: [Chuckles] I read Dwight Decker’s Comics Journal interview with you guys from 1981 and he uses that phrase—and it was the wrong phrase—“Housewife.” Housewife is such a throwback kind of thing. It fits our parents but not our generation, really. Wendy: That’s what my mother was. CBC: But there are no women today who are “housewives.” ’Cause it’s so archaic. I couldn’t believe he said that. Even in 1981 I would be surprised. “Wait, what—?” Wendy: [Laughs] And Dwight is very Old World. CBC: When did you graduate high school? Wendy: Uh… Let me see! Richard and I had met through the mail by then, so I graduated high school in 1968 and then… [to Richard] or was it ’69? Richard Pini: Nineteen sixty-nine. We met via letters in January. You were a senior. I was first-year college. Wendy: That’s right. I was 18 years old, so it had to be ’69. And from there I went on to college. It was

Triton TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Fletcher, Pini artwork © Wendy Pini. Elfquest TM & © Warp Graphics, Inc.

important to my parents that I get into college and I applied. My grades weren’t all that great, but… CBC: They were willing to pay? Wendy: As long as I got in… Again, it would “look” better if I went to college. That’s why they wanted me to go. My mother was not a college graduate. I think my father graduated from a community college. CBC: So it would look better, but was it anything about improvement? Wendy: No. CBC: Then it was fortuitous that they had this feeling, this societal pressure on them. There was some benefit to that for you. Wendy: I wanted to leave home. I wanted to get out of that house and the possibility of college was a whole new world for me, the possibilities of learning to get along… CBC: A whole new tribe. Wendy: “A whole new tribe.” I like that, Jon. Very much. So, for those reasons, I agreed that I should go to college, but with this offer from Marvel… I’ll tell you the end to that story: I communicated back and forth with Sol Brodsky and Linda Fite for some weeks… a couple of months… and I sent in my sample pages that I had done, a couple of sample pages of The Avengers. And I got a response from Sol saying, “Well, you are 17 and it does look like you’re not quite ready. You’re just about to enter college, so I’ll tell you what: when you get a couple years of college under your belt… ” CBC: “Give us a call.” Wendy: Yeah, “Give us a call.” And I was kind of grateful! CBC: Oh, really? Wendy: I don’t know that I actually felt ready. When I sat down to do those pages, I made up a little script so I gave the characters something to do, but it was still kind of a family. The Avengers were a family like the Fantastic Four. CBC: They’d fight a lot. Wendy: Yeah. They were another sort of dysfunctional family, and I loved them, too. So my pages were quiet. There was no action on them, even though I was really influenced by Jack Kirby. So, I was actually kind of relieved, I think, in the long run. CBC: But you were a young person. You were a little crushed, right? Wendy: Honestly, I don’t think so. CBC: Were you surprised at your reaction, then? That’s an awfully mature reaction. Wendy: But, you see, I grew up too fast. I grew up exposed to all kinds of rejection early on. CBC: This was the ’60s and especially you were in California, Wendy. You were only an hour-and-a-half away from San Francisco. Wendy: All the protests and all of that. CBC: The Summer of Love. Wendy: But Gilroy was an isolated community. CBC: But you knew what was going on, right? Wendy: I’m embarrassed to say I didn’t pay too much attention. CBC: But you watched TV.

Wendy: I watched TV. I watched cartoons. I watched fantasy. CBC: Into your teens, you were watching cartoons? Wendy: Completely! I was addicted. The Saturday morning cartoons… Space Ghost, all the Hanna-Barbera cartoons that were coming out. Space Ghost was dawn by Alex Toth! I knew who Alex Toth was! He designed those characters. Doug Wildey had designed… CBC: You knew what Alex Toth’s style was? Wendy: I knew what his style was. I knew who he was because of my new connections to fandom. A lot of information comes through fandom of who’s who and what’s what. CBC: Ahhhh! Wendy: I had joined an APA-zine. CBC: You know, I’m curious about mail. Was mail really important to you? Wendy: Very much. CBC: Did you have pen pals?

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This page: Obviously, Wendy is very fond of Triton, member of The Inhumans, as seen by the above romantic sequence by young Wendy Fletcher, and the sketch below of her signature character with the Lee/Kirby creation. Inset left: Kirby and Frank Giacoia pin-up from Fantastic Four Annual #5 [Nov. ’67].

Wendy: Yeah. They were mostly guys because most of the fans were guys. That’s how I met Richard. I got this letter published in… CBC: Silver Surfer…. Wendy: Number five. Early on. You know, after they printed my address, I got Above: The Silver Surfer #5 [Apr. letters from all over the U.S. and Canada. 1969] letter of comment from CBC: “It’s a girl!” [chuckles] “A girl who reads comics!” Wendy Fletcher that prompted Wendy: “It’s a girl.” This is a true story. And my mother Marvel reader Richard Pini to was gob-smacked. She would pick me up at high school write her a letter himself. She and we would go to the post office. That was our routine. replied and thus began their And the box would be full with all these letters. [laughs] almost 48-year love affair. Cover That just doesn’t happen! art by John Romita. Below: “Ju- CBC: How did you feel? nior Miss” pic that Wendy sent Wendy: Oh, can you imagine? May ego inflated like… to her pen pal with inscription. like…

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Silver Surfer TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

CBC: Did you date at all in high school? Wendy: A little bit. Um, hm. CBC: Did you have any special boyfriends? Wendy: There was one guy I was crazy about (who happened to be gay). CBC: Somehow it often works out that way. [laughter] Wendy: His name was Dennis and I think we loved each other because we identified with each other because he was… CBC: Did you recognize after that he was gay or at the time you just knew that…? Wendy: He was definitely… He wore pink a lot. He was flashy and effeminate. CBC: And it was a bully school, so you were a little tied together, right? Wendy: Yes. But he was proud. I would go over and have dinner with his family. Again, my parents objected to this relationship. I think they knew he was gay and they didn’t really… You know. But I was friends with him anyway. And I got used to realizing that they were wrong about everything. If my parents rejected something, that’s what I went for. I was very, very rebellious. Because they always objected to anything that held a possibility of love. CBC: They were afraid. Wendy: They were afraid that if anything came to me that wasn’t from them, that they would lose control over me, I guess. You know, Scott left when I was 12. CBC: [Laughs] He fled! Wendy: He fled. And I ended up as the only child under their complete domination. CBC: So all the attention was on you. They dressed you, they… Wendy: They dressed me, they… CBC: Did you start rebelling against that by the time you were 16? Wendy: Yeah. As I was explaining, when I discovered comics fandom and that there was a whole world of people who were like me and thought like me and could appreciate me, I was, like, “Okay, this is where I’m headed! I am headed out of this prison and into this world of freedom and adventure,” where people might actually understand who I was. CBC: Were you a “good girl”? Wendy: In terms of fooling around? CBC: Getting in trouble. Wendy: I got in trouble a lot. CBC: Yeah? Wendy: Yeah, sure. Because I did not like rules. I wasn’t a fighter. I was often the victim of blame, but I wasn’t a fighter. But this obsession that I had with drama and storytelling was something that a lot of the other kids didn’t like because I wasn’t like them. CBC: That’s funny. As a boy growing up, being able to draw was… The girls would be impressed… “Wow, that’s cool!” Wendy: Yeah, but if you could put yourself in a girl’s shoes, different things were expected of a girl. You were expected to be interested in boys. You were expected to be pretty. You were expected to be pleasant. CBC: Did that unfairness… ? You know, women’s liberation really starting in ’69. You had The Feminine Mystique and Gloria Steinem and… it just exploded! Wendy: Sure did. CBC: The mass media just distilled it down to “Burn your bra.” [Wendy laughs] But I remember my mother being impacted. There was just a lot of freedom that took place. Wendy: Oh, yeah. Angry women… My mother, in her later years before she died—I would say the last four years before she died—was extremely angry and in a way, I was glad to see it. CBC: At the inequity? Wendy: At everything! And I was very glad to see rebel-

Artwork © Wendy Pini.

lion juts pouring out of her. She was mad at her life, she was mad at my father, she was mad at Nixon, [laughs] she was mad at the war. She was mad at everything. But everybody was mad at everything! Protests! Just like today! [laughter] It’s very familiar, the vibe of today. So I was very glad to see that come out of her. CBC: Did you get exposed to other media? I mean, you were going down to the store and you were buying comics. Wendy: Yeah. CBC: Were there any other things that you were buying? Wendy: When you say “going down to the store,” lots of times it was good ol’ Safeway, the grocery store, with the spinners. But also it was Steinemetz’s Pool Hall [laughs] right on Main Street. CBC: They sold comics? Wendy: They had a huge rack of porn magazines, men magazines, and comics, all put together. CBC: “All put together”?! Wendy: Yeah. CBC: Would you probably be the only girl there? Wendy: I would guess so. I mean, I never saw any other girls there. [laughs] You could look through the door when you were rifling through the magazines and there were guys playing pool in the back and, you know, they would look and… It was weird! But I wanted my comics! And nothing was gonna stop me! So I would walk into town from the ranch… CBC: You’d walk? How far away was it? Wendy: About a mile, mile-and-a-half. CBC: Did you ever get a bike? Wendy: Sure. I had a bike. CBC: They gave you a bike? That’s great. And did you know that comics come every Tuesday and Thursday and like that? Wendy: Yeah, I paid attention to when the new comics came out. CBC: Did they let you cut open the bales at all? Wendy: No, it wasn’t quite like that, but once they were set up on the racks… CBC: Far out. So do you recall the first comic book that

made an impact on you? Wendy: It was a Fantastic Four. It was the introduction of the Frightful Four [#36, Mar. 1965]. CBC: So, you were a teenager by then? Wendy: Oh, sure. CBC: So, none of the Carl Barks or kiddie comics…? Wendy: No, I didn’t care for ’em. I didn’t care for silly fantasy. CBC: Even though you were into cartoons. Warner Brothers cartoons are arguably cutesy kind of stuff. Wendy: Warner Brothers cartoons were aimed at adults. CBC: No, I mean visually. Because obviously some of your animation… Wendy: Yeah, there were some cutesy cartoons and cutesy characters that I didn’t care for. I always wanted something that had a slight darkness to it. CBC: A little edge? Wendy: Something a little sinister. CBC: Really? Wendy: You could tell that the Warner Brothers cartoons, especially ones that came out in World War II, and were making fun of the Nazis, they all had that. And, of course, Chuck Jones’ cartoons. Chuck Jones’ cartoons were just… ! CBC: So you like that touch of cynicism. Wendy: Cynicism and a little sinister. CBC: Interesting. Wendy: Horror movies! Um, boy, was I into horror movies. Any time one came on TV— Godzilla… Those wonderful Italian horror movies that started coming on—Barbara Steele! CBC: The Hammer movies? Wendy: Yeah. And the Roger Corman [Edgar Allan] Poe cycle. I can remember being into that. CBC: Did you go to the drive-in at all? Wendy: Not too often, but I would go to the Strand Theater. That was downtown on Main Street. CBC: Did they have a Saturday matinee do you remember? Wendy: Yeah. CBC: Were they geared to kids? Wendy: If there was a horror movie or especially something from the Corman Poe cycle with Peter Lorre and Vincent Price and all that, I was there. I was there. 13 Ghosts. And then, of course, good old American International, when I was 10 years old. Imported the first anime that came to America. That was Alakazam the Great, and then Magic Boy. CBC: Were these movies? Wendy: These were full-length feature animated cartoons. CBC: Alright! Wendy: But they were anime! Being exposed to anime made me crazy! I guess I was the first… The Japanese call it otaku and it means you are so obsessed with animation that it fills your whole life. You know, the manga-style characters. But what these early anime introduced me to was the fact that animation could be something other than Disney. It could be about subject matter that was more serious. I mean, these characters were exposed to life-threatening danger and I knew that there were artists there drawing them because I knew how animation was done. So I’m like, “You mean you can be a cartoonist and you can actually draw this scary stuff? Is that blood? In a cartoon! I’ve never seen blood in a cartoon before.” Yep, that’s blood! [laughs] And again, it was mind-expand-

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This page: First pen pals, then long-distance lovers, and now husband and wife since Saturday, June 17, 1972. (Believe it or not, that very same day (albeit in the wee hours of the morning), the Watergate scandal began with a break-in at the complex!) At top is a picture of the couple after the ceremony. Inset left is, as Richard describes, “from our memory album of the wedding. Wendy wrote the poem and drew us into the scene.” Below is Richard’s high school senior class photo, 1968.

Above: Renowned anime genius Osamu Tezuka and his famed creation Astro Boy. Below: Wendy’s first exposure to Michael Moorcock’s Elric was via this 1967 Lancer paperback. Inset right: Michael Whelan’s depiction of the albino hero, used on the Stormbringer paperback. Bottom: Cover of Wendy’s massive Elric project.

or senior year, and I felt very betrayed by that because she got a lot more interested in him than me. Richard came along not too long after, so… [laughs] CBC: When do you think the notion of romance started with you? Because your notion of romance is expansive. Almost a “romance of the ages.” It’s not necessarily about a man and a woman or a man and a man or… Wendy: No, it never was. CBC: It’s about… Well, what is romance to you? Wendy: Oh, gosh. [long pause] The first thing that pops in my mind is being in my grandmother’s living room, going through her bookshelves, and she had several books that were illustrated by Aubrey Beardsley. Now, if you’re familiar with his work, you know it’s highly erotic. I think that by studying that work, by studying Beardsley—and Erté, the famous Russian father of art deco. Erté is also very erotic. A little bit of nudity going on there—I was exposed to or exposed myself to that kind of thing at a very early age. I was trying to draw nudes and sensual material much, much earlier I think than your average kid. And again, under a lot of pressure and objection from particularly my mother. I remember trying to draw a picture of a woman breastfeeding a baby, which is something I had never seen. There was nothing like that in my life but I knew about it and so I wanted to try and experience that through drawing and I remember my mother coming in ad looking over my shoulder. I had very little privacy. My mother would just… come in to my room or my area. There was no knocking on doors. She would just come right in. And she looked and I remember her saying, “That’s dis-gust-ing!” I was, like, “Wait a minute. You’re a woman.” She never had babies of her own. Again, that was a tragedy in her life. CBC: Did she want ’em? Wendy: Oh! She loved babies. When she was about 24 or 25 years old, she had to have all her female plumbing out because she was a bleeder, you know? And apparently that was a big thing between her and my father. A huge disappointment. And the adoption of the children later on was to try to patch that up. CBC: [Laughs] That’s pretty f*cked up. Wendy: Well, thank you, Jon! Well said! But these were people from another era raised in very difficult circumstances, trying to live their lives and trying to patch up what hurt and what made them full of rage. CBC: Coping in the only way they knew how. Wendy: They did their best, right? But I remember, if I tried to do nudes or anything remotely erotic… I never had “The Talk.” Anything remotely sexual was denied in my house. CBC: Did you have a health class in school where you learned? Wendy: Yeah, but you see, I learned in other ways. I found books and I learned through art, magazines. Just anything. I just made my way, you know? Occasional conversations, especially with my friend Dennis [laughs]. But I just learned any way I could. That’s the way I’ve always learned anything: teach myself. That’s how I learned to draw. And after I married Richard, I just considered myself in a period of re-raising myself from that past family experience. I considered that I was starting all over. CBC: You think you got out of there just in time? Wendy: Yeah. CBC: So… You had gotten this encouragement from Marvel. [Wendy laughs] However brief it was. Nonetheless,

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Buz Sawyer TM & © The Hearst Corporation. Prince Valiant TM & © Hearst Holdings, Inc. Self-portraits © the respective artist estates.

ing. You could do grown-up stuff in cartoons! CBC: Do you recall vividly the first time that you went in a theater and you saw anime for the first time? Wendy: It was like seeing God. Absolutely. CBC: Wow. I’m not familiar with those two. I remember Tobor. Wendy: Tobor the Great? CBC: [Sings] ”Tobor, the Eighth Man! Faster than a rocket…” Wendy: Oh, no! That was… CBC: That was a Japanese cartoon. Speed Racer and Kimba, the White Lion. Wendy: That was by my sensei, Osamu Tezuka. Osamu Tezuka was one of the directors on Alakazam the Great, and that’s where I first saw his name, in the credits. CBC: You mentioned his name back in the ’81 interview. There were not a lot of Americans who knew that name, but you brought it right out and he’s obviously a Japanese comic book god. Wendy: I always wanted to know who did it. I always watched the credits on cartoons. I always wanted to know who made them, even when I was a very young kid. Because there were people behind these. These things didn’t just appear out of magic. CBC: It’s always, “Wow. What kind of person would do this?” Wendy: Yeaaah! CBC: Being that we’re here in Poughkeepsie right now, what kind of people do this? Wendy: [Laughs] Well, people you have a lot in common with, apparently. CBC: Yeah, I’m a very frustrated artist myself. I know what I’m supposed to do so, yeah, this is good. [laughter] So you were able to go to town, you went to the movies. That’s pretty neat. Did you have any girlfriends? Wendy: Yeah, but I tended to glom onto… CBC: What’s that mean? Wendy: G-L-O-M, glom, latch… onto one girlfriend in particular who was my friend all through high school. Her name was Betty. We were very, very close—almost romantically close! She finally met a boy in her junior

you got some encouragement from that. Wendy: Oh, yes! CBC: Did you have determination that, indeed, you were going to do your own comics? Wendy: I thought I was going to be an animator, possibly an independent animator, like doing art films, you know? Just making my way, expressing myself with the type of material that I would like to do as animation. That’s why I want to mention one of my other gurus: Michael Moorcock. I discovered his Elric series when I was 16 years old and started imagining what the characters would look like. Interestingly enough, as a very detailed fantasy author, he didn’t describe the characters very much. You had to kind of glean, as you read his work, what his characters looked like. And so I would imagine them and I started drawing them and I wrote to him… [laughs], sent him some artwork just like I did with Marvel, and got a lovely letter back. He appreciated what I had to say about his work and I started a correspondence with him. When I entered college, I asked his permission to do a project, an animated film based on Stormbringer. You know, a personal art project. I had no intention of commercializing it. I just wanted to do a college project, and he gave me permission. CBC: This is Elric’s sword? Wendy: Yeah. Elric and the sword Stormbringer and the storyline, the hero’s journey. CBC: The Eternal Champion and stuff. Wendy: Right, the Eternal Champion. CBC: He was my favorite writer when I was a teenager, along with Kurt Vonnegut. Wendy: Oh! Isn’t that amazing! [laughs] CBC: I actually conducted an interview with him. I wanted to do an interview with him about his comics-related stuff and we did a great first part but I never followed up. I’d love to finish it, so if you’re listening, Michael… [laughter] Wendy: Did you know I interviewed him, too, once? We were at a convention in Dallas. Fantasy Fair or something like that. This was back in the mid- to late ’80s, I think. I asked to do a panel discussion with Michael and the topic of the panel was to be the healing power of fantasy. Because his fantasy books were dark, dark fudge tragedy! I mean really dark! Elric goes there! [laughs] But that’s something I could identify with because of the huge sadness of growing up the way I did. It made me very melancholy and gave me this dark side. And Michael’s work spoke to that and that’s what I wrote him about. That’s what we started corresponding about. So we did this panel together and that’s what I wanted to talk to him about, about the healing power of fantasy. He was oddly uncomfortable with it. He’s very British, you know, and so he’s very reserved. [laughter] I wanted to get into this very juicy… CBC: Deal with it! Let’s wrestle it down! Wendy: Let’s deal with this emotional stuff… But I remember it being a very interesting panel. CBC: Cool. Was it recorded? Wendy: I don’t think so. I wish it had been. CBC: Was Michael still editing New Worlds? Was this the late ’60s? Wendy: Oh, no. This panel I was just talking about was the ’80s. CBC: I mean when you first started corresponding with Michael… Wendy: When I first started, he was quite young. He had started writing his Elric material when he was just 18 or 19 years old. Elric is just filled with adolescent… angst! [laughs] The entire universe revolves around this character. CBC: An albino who has to steal souls! Wendy: And again, there’s this… Elric has pointed ears. He’s basically of the Elven persuasion. So naturally, I loved that character. CBC: I was always attracted to Elric. And Michael was always very good at humor. He could do very, very funny. I mean, dark, but…

Above: Caption.

Wendy: Cynical! CBC: Yeah, and the ’70s was a good time for that, when you had Nixon. [laughs] Wendy: But you see, you said you were very attracted to it. CBC: Oh, yeah. That whole Stormbringer thing. Wendy: I suspect that his work was very healing for a lot of Adult Children of Alcoholics and for people who had problems with substance abuse because Elric is a drug addict. CBC: You’re exactly right! Wendy: His drug is the sword. It’s a metaphor for drug addiction. He can’t function unless he steals energy from other people to function and that’s exactly what alcoholics do. CBC: And Moorcock also had a very good way of speaking to other people. It was very accessible when you were a kid, not condescending. My older brothers loved him, too. Wendy: It’s that dark stuff, you know? And I don’t know if you’ve seen it—the material that I did for my never-to-be-realized animated project. Later on, Richard published it. There were some 400, 500 drawings, and animation, and sketches. CBC: I saw a bunch of them online. Wendy: Yeah, that got published as a book called Law and Chaos. So even though I didn’t realize the film because I had just bitten off way more than I could chew… CBC: [Laughs] One artist doing an animated film! Wendy: Well, Jon, it’s not unusual. There was Richard Williams… Plympton. CBC: You have to have a certain personality to tackle such an enormous task… Wendy: Bill Plympton, who we just met yesterday at the New York Comic Con… But anyway, I knew that there were independent animators. They were all men. CBC: But you had an epic in mind, right? Wendy: I had an epic in mind. I bit off way more than I could chew. CBC: [Chuckles] It’s nice to have dreams, Wendy. Wendy: Again, that has always been a characteris-

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Above: Michael Moorcock’s tragic Elric character made a huge impact on young Wendy, so much so she audaciously worked alone for years on making an animated movie, which she finally abandoned. This is one of her sketches. Below: When the wielder of Stormbringer guest-starred in Conan the Barbarian, Wendy actually drew over Barry Windsor-Smith Conan the Barbarian #14 [Mar. 1972] panels to make Elric’s visage more to her liking.

CBC: What was your act? Wendy: A dance. Again, self-taught, but I was a dancer. I did free-style. CBC: In front of an audience? Wendy: Yeah. Again, being inspired by anime and Japanese culture. The dance was a dance with a fan and I called it, “The Willow.” The dance was done to Japanese music. It was that wonderful affinity I felt for Asian art forms that inspired me. So that’s what I did and I won the contest because my grades [laughs] certainly weren’t anything to sing about! I think that’s chiefly why I didn’t go much farther. I went on to the statewide competition. You know, for Junior Miss you start in your community and you then go on to statewide and so forth. And I didn’t make it past that. CBC: But you got your picture in the paper? Wendy: Oh, plenty! Also, I was a member of the Pacific Forensic League. It was oratory. You wrote speeches or you interpreted theatrical works, monologues, things like that. And yeah, I traveled around the state with our oratory group and I quite frequently placed first or second. CBC: You didn’t have stage fright? Wendy: I was an actress. CBC: Not a shrinking violet? Wendy: Oh, no. I also belonged to our theater group— the drama club—in high school and did some big parts! I played Joan of Arc, I did Antigone…. CBC: So this is all wrapped up in the same fantasy and… Wendy: Sure! Self-expression! If you are raised in an environment where they want you to tone it down, if you’re a natural 12 on the dial and they want you to constantly dial it down to five because that’s where they prefer you, it’s hard. I was a handful! I know that. I was pretty extreme. I say what it was like for me with my parents, but I also look at it from their side, having to deal with me. Because I was a handful. You couldn’t tell me no. You could not tell me no. CBC: Wow. It was the Age of Aquarius? Did you stay away from drugs and alcohol? Even pot? Wendy: Yeah. I was never interested. I found fandom and would go away to conventions and I would be involved with groups where the possibility of drugs was there, but I remembered something Harlan Ellison said. He was someone that I knew of and met early on. Harlan said, “I don’t do drugs. I was born with LSD in my veins, so I don’t do drugs.” And I kind of identified with that. If my mind is like this as it is, and I can picture all this stuff that people talk about on their acid trips [heavy laughter] I don’t think I want to know what my mind would be like on acid! CBC: The doors of perception. Wendy: As far as the sexual revolution, my parents were constantly worried about that. They constantly put off anybody that I would try to date—even Richard. They didn’t like Richard. But I was what you’d call a “good girl,” just not from any moral standpoint. I had no morals. [pause, raucous laughter] Because of what I would draw, when I could get away with it, I had absolutely no morals! I just didn’t want… There was nobody that I wanted. CBC: You came close with Betty but… Wendy: Yeah. I’m certainly bi[-sexual]. CBC: What do they say, now? Fluid? Wendy: [Laughs] Very, very fluid! But even being like that mentally, there was just nobody I wanted until I met Richard. CBC: So you were able to parse romance from sexuality? Wendy: I got it all out of my system with my work. CBC: You really lucked out on any number of levels: from the dysfunctional, solitary, isolated background that you had, to grow and be able to see expansively, and to perceive hope, and to take care of yourself. Wendy: I’ve been in therapy a couple of times and both times, I was asked, “Why aren’t you a drug addict? Because everything that you went though would point to a pattern of wanting to relieve the pain with some kind of substance?” My answer was always, “My work, my ability to get things

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Amazing Adventures TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Galaxy TM & © Institute for the Development of the Harmonious Human Being, Inc.

Above: Wendy Fletcher Pini has always had a special place in her heart for the Jack Kirby/ Stan Lee creation, The Inhumans, a family of fantasticallypowered humanoids, with special affection for the aquatic character, Triton. Before her foray into independent comics with ElfQuest, she shared her take with writer Doug Moench about his work in the letter column of The Inhumans #6 [Aug. 1976], which took up almost the entire page. In it, she equates the group as “innocent children who are frightened by their own powers.” Below: In the mid’70s, Wendy painted science fiction digest covers, including these two beauties: Galaxy Vol. 36, #1, Jan. 1975 [left], and Galaxy Vol. 36, #5, June 1975.

tic of mine. CBC: To just plow right into it? Wendy: Yeah. You can’t tell me no. If you tell me no, I will find a way around that. CBC: So you found this fortitude in pop culture, basically? You were discriminating, right? You liked what you liked. Wendy: And I was encouraged by the people I started meeting in fandom, first fans and then the professionals. I started going to conventions where I could actually interact with the professionals who created the stuff that I loved. CBC: Were you a letter hack? How many letters did you have published? Wendy: I think I must have been. I don’t remember very well, but I know I wrote letters all the time. CBC: Was it that you saw that there was a letter column and you said, “I could do this?” Wendy: Oh, sure. Sure. I got a few letters published in Marvel comics. Heck, when Doug Moench was doing The Inhumans, I wrote him a letter because the Inhumans were still my favorite and he made my one letter almost the entire letter column [in #6, Aug. 1976]! [laughs] That was really exciting. CBC: What was that? Like, ’74? ’75? Wendy: I think so. I know that Richard and I were together by then. Yeah. CBC: When was the first time you saw your name in print? The Silver Surfer? Wendy: The Silver Surfer was the first time that I got a letter published and it brought Richard and me together. CBC: So that was the first time you saw your name in print? Wendy: No. Because I had been in the newspaper. CBC: Really? Let’s hear about this. Wendy: Well, I did win several art contests in high school and I was also, believe it or not, Gilroy’s Junior Miss! [laughs] CBC: I can believe it. I knew you as Red Sonja! Wendy: Well, I was nothing like Red Sonja back then. There was one other girl competing against me and I guess they liked my act better.

This page: Wendy Pini produced covers for science fiction newsstand digests in the early to mid-1970s, including the painting gracing Galaxy Vol. 35, #7, cover-dated July 1974. Included here are preliminary sketches, alternative designs, final painting, and printed cover proof. Some of these items were auctioned by Heritage, which described the work: “Wendy’s finished acrylic on board painting has an image area of 15" x 17.5", while her alternate design was drawn with mixed-media on paper, and has an image area of 12" x 17"… Richard [Pini] says: ‘Before Elfquest, Wendy was making a name for herself in science fiction and fantasy illustration, providing cover art and interior illustrations to several of the (then) extant successors to the pulp magazines. Often she would paint little inserted tributes to people or places that we knew well, just to spice up the art. This cover is the very first such art she did; previously she had only interior illustrations published.’” COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

This page: Above is Wendy at a sketch board during an early 1980s San Diego Comic-Con. Below: Wendy told interviewer Rob Beschizza, “The Rebels was really the beginnings for ElfQuest.” As a member of CAPA-alpha (Comics Amateur Press Association), Wendy contributed a mimeographed story about five teenagers, each from a different planet, who come together as a family (of a sort). Her concept would eventually meld into ElfQuest canon.

down on paper and out of my system, saved me from going into despair.” CBC: Do you believe in God? Wendy: Yeah. CBC: Do you believe He or She watches over you? Wendy: It’s not a He or She or anything like that, but even growing up in an isolated situation, I have never felt alone. There has always been a presence, something, egging me on and supporting me, almost like a voice. I can give you an example of a miracle I still don’t understand to this day. It was after I married Richard. At one point in the ’90s, I had a studio in town and would have to drive back home. It was winter and there was a blizzard and I was driving at night, and the roads hadn’t been cleared yet. So I’m coming up IBM Road to an intersection and I can see that the light is red at the top of the hill. It’s a hill, and I can see that the light is turning green for me, and I’m getting ready to make a left turn. I heard distinctly, a deep, male voice said, “He’s going to run the light.” CBC: Wow. Wendy: And just as I got to the top of the hill, somebody came straight through that red light, just as I was going to make the turn. If I had made it, I would have been T-boned… in a blizzard. CBC: You’d be dead. Wendy: I heard that voice so distinctly. Whatever that is. Is it intuition? Is it something from beyond? I’ve always trusted that there’s more than meets the eye here. There is something going on, some kid of hum, an energy that is benevolent and is there and if you listen, if you pay attention

to little signs that you get every day, there’s something there that looks after you. CBC: That’s interesting because one of the things one experiences with LSD… That’s almost the foundation of it in a sense and also a spirituality that it’s “going to be all right.” Wendy: I’ve heard this. I’ve heard that often the LSD experience is a feeling of being accompanied, as if there were someone there in the room with you. CBC: Like we’re all a part of something. Wendy: Yeah. CBC: All the organic stuff. It all comes together. Wendy: Exactly. But I’ve always kind of had that! CBC: You and Harlan. Wendy: Me and Harlan! And probably because of an affinity to fantasy and to nature, which sends that message. Fantasy stories all send that message. That mystical, spiritual message of being interconnected… the world of nature, the world of man, the world of the nature spirits, the world of the gods. And then, farther up, just levels and levels and levels. CBC: Let’s talk about the creative impetus for ElfQuest. What were you reading besides…? Wendy: Moorcock. CBC: He’s a kind of fantasy that’s not necessarily reflected in ElfQuest… or is it? Wendy: ElfQuest has a dark side. There’s always a dark side. ElfQuest literally starts on the first page with an execution. That’s the opening image, one of the elves being caught and tortured and about to be burned at the stake, basically. In the ’90s, I got very, very involved with spiritual studies. I was particularly focused on alternative methods of healing because I had been born with congenital hip dysplasia. By the time I was 29 or so, my left leg—my left hip in particular—had just given out. There was no cartilage in the joint there. It was literally bone on bone when I walked and the pain was tremendous. So I process began of surgeries. I was too young to have a hip replacement, they told me, because the lifespan of a hip replacement back then was shorter than they are now. I had to wait until I was 40. So I was gonna live my 30s on a cane. CBC: And in pain. Wow. Wendy: Because I don’t like drugs, I don’t like taking pills, I really, really went deeply into alternative methods of healing from meditation, past life regression, re-birthing, breathing exercises… I went the whole nine yards! Prob-

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Costume design sketches © Wendy Pini. Portrait © Richard Pini. Red Sonja TM & © Red Sonja LLC. The Mike Douglas Show © the respective copyright holder.

ably drove Richard out of his mind! [laughs] He said it was like living with a ghost. But, mentioning past life regression, I went through that and I had a powerful memory of having been burned at the stake as a witch. I connected that with movies I watched growing up. I had always been fascinated with Joan of Arc and I even played her in high school. And, of course, she was burned at the stake. And good old Barbara Steele, our beloved horror actress. I guess she must have done several movies where she was burned at the stake as well, you know? Always loved her. CBC: It’s a trope. Wendy: [Laughs] “It’s a trope.” If a woman was too strong, especially back in the ‘60s, burn her! That’s the answer! [laughs] CBC: The Crucible. Wendy: So ElfQuest starts with a burning at the stake because it is a primal—deep inside me—memory of the ultimate rejection. The ultimate rejection that society can offer a human being is to want to burn ’em up alive, and spit on them while they’re doing it. And somehow, I could imagine what that felt like. CBC: You had empathy toward the migrants. Were you attracted to the civil rights movement at all? Did that have any meaning to you? Wendy: No, it didn’t. No, I shouldn’t say it didn’t! I had simply no exposure to black culture. The people of color in my life were the migrants and the Mexican people who actually lived and worked in Gilroy. I was not supposed to associate with, quote/unquote, the Mexicans. I dated a Mexican boy on the sly when I was 14. And when my father found out about it… whooop! [laughter] They made me get on the phone and tell him that I was not going to see him again. I remember to this day what he looked like. I think I put him in ElfQuest. But that was the kind of family I grew up in. Black, brown, whatever. There was bigotry in my family.

I really only started to become conscious of the revolution going around—the black culture, Angela Davis, and all that—when I got to college, because there were a lot of black students there. Just people I’d never been exposed to before. It was exciting and it was scary because they were so angry, and if you sat down and talked to them, almost the first thing that came out would be anger. So very scary… and wonderful. Both scary and wonderful. Going back to ElfQuest, I mentioned the burning at the stake because I knew that I wanted to start off the story depicting a situation of bigotry and hatred against the “other,” so the humans, the primitive, caveman-like humans, represented that collective bigotry against something

Right: Wendy appeared as Red Sonja in a surprise cameo on The Mike Douglas Show, on July 27, 1977. She’s seen here with the host, Phil Seuling, and Jamie Farr.

This page: Wendy is arguably the world’s first great cosplayer as she added not just amazing detail to her Red Sonja costume, but also with her expert performance, which had her becoming the auburnmaned warrior. Included here are her designs and costume closeup, as well as Richard Pini’s photo of Wendy in her get-up.

Above: Two pages of Frank Thorne’s original art for his “The Wizard and Red Sonja Show” story in Savage Sword of Conan #29 [May 1978], these featuring Wendy Pini and Frank in his Wizard persona. In the story, Thorne also depicted other Red Sonja cosplayers Linda Behrle, Angelique Trouvere, Dianne DeKalb, and Wendy Snow, Below: Wendy produced a series of images for use in a Red Sonja slideshow showing a different facet of the character.

CBC: That’s empowerment, right, coming from that? Wendy: Yeah. That you can be small and vulnerable and have a lot going against you but if you say no, I’m going to survive this and my people are going to survive this… You rise up and say, “No.” CBC: Allegorically, do you think they’re brown people? Wendy: They’re any persecuted group. They’re gay. They’re any color, any sex that’s ever been persecuted. They represent any group that’s ever been marginalized because they’re different. CBC: You start off with the burning at the stake. Ultimately are they going to be destroyed or are they going to survive? Wendy: Well, that’s the story. They start off with the burning of one character and then when that character is rescued at the cost of the life of one of the humans, the humans get vengeful and… they burn down the whole forest! Which was my way of saying that people who hate enough will destroy themselves as well as their imagined enemy to express their hate. It really backfired because their homes were destroyed, too, in this act of crazy vengeance. It was something I wanted to say about how violence and revenge really does turn right back on you. CBC: Did you have any feelings about the Vietnam War? Wendy: Mmm-hmmm. I was scared to death that Richard was gonna get… what do you call it… conscripted? Drafted! I did not believe in the war. It was the first time, I think, the entire world—because of the state of media reporting at the time, becoming as advanced as it was at the time, and reporters going in, right into the thick of the battle, like they never had before—you saw those images and your heart would break. The images of murder and cruelty… that famous one of that naked child running.

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that they were afraid of and didn’t understand. I wanted my readers to identify with the elves immediately, so I made them humanoid. I made them childlike in size, I gave them large, childlike eyes—again, of course, the manga influence from Osamu Tezuka. I designed them to look immediately sympathetic, but, at the same time, to have alien qualities like these large pointed ears and these slanted eyes, plus their affiliation with wolves, also a persecuted species. So the elves immediately, as you get to know them in the story, have this dichotomy. They’re appealing and look vulnerable in certain ways because they’re small, but at the same time they have these sinister elements: they’re affiliated with wolves, they’re fantastic warriors, they’re dangerous, they’re deadly. They know how to protect themselves and you see that within the first six pages of ElfQuest, and how they’re willing to kill to defend their own people. These are not just little, innocent, pure-hearted beings that are helpless victims. These represent the evolution of creatures who have been bullied and had to rise up to it and have become as strong as their bullies. So, really legitimate foes to the humans. CBC: When do you think that notion started gestating? Do you think it was from your childhood? Wendy: I think it was always a theme in any story I ever told.

CBC: The napalm bombing. So, you were cognizant of My Lai happening? Wendy: I was cognizant. I did not, I’m sorry to say, pay attention to the details of politics like I do today. Today, I’m a political activist. Back then, I wasn’t. I was trying to get my own act together. I was naturally anti-war. CBC: Is there any sense of indigenous people with your characters? Wendy: [Laughs] Oh, yeah. There is a strong Native American vibe to how the elves live their lives. I’ve always been fascinated with other cultures, whether Japan or India or Russia or Tibet. And, of course, growing up in California, you are exposed to Native American culture a lot. I went to pow-wows when I could. San Juan Battista wasn’t far from Gilroy and there were pow-wows that you could get to. CBC: So history not so much, but anthropology, yes? Wendy: Yeah. People… people! And the arts—the dance, the costumes, the beauty of how they express who they are through those things and their storytelling… again. Because it’s all storytelling! CBC: Let’s talk about Richard. Tell us the story of you guys meeting. Wendy: I think I did. I wrote a letter in to Silver Surfer when I was 18, 19. I was in California, still in Gilroy, and Richard was attending his first year at M.I.T. (Massachusetts Institute of Technology), in Boston. He was a collector, particularly of Marvel Comics, and he read The Silver Surfer. He saw my letter and he wrote to me. Back then they would publish the mailing addresses of whoever wrote in. Those were kinder, gentler times in certain ways. [laughs] I wrote him back, and I sent him a drawing, and he freaked out and wrote me back. CBC: What was the drawing? Wendy: The drawing was of Triton of the Inhumans. CBC: Wow! Kirby, man! Wendy: “Kirby, man!” But also my image of “other” in the Marvel Universe. Triton. Pointed ears, you know? [laughs] And we got to corresponding. That first year, when I was at my orientation period at Pitzer College, he lied to his parents and told them he was going to a writing seminar in Pennsylvania, but instead he drove across country, nonstop, in two-and-a-half days. [Jon chuckles] He ended up at Pitzer College. He lived on Vivarin and Lifesavers. Fortunately, he took a shower before we actually met. [laughter] CBC: Were you romantic in your correspondence? Did it start sliding into, “I wanna see you?” Wendy: Lemme check. Richard, were we romantic in our correspondence? I remember. Do you remember the first time I said, “I love you”? [laughs] Richard: Yeah, we were on the phone. I remember the room I was in. My mind flipped! Wendy: I know! You told me you were upside down, walking on the ceiling. Richard: Yeah. [Wendy laughs] CBC: [To Richard] Had you been in love with her for a period of time before that? Were you already in love with her? Richard: As much as… anyone could be, never having met, only knowing through letters and/or as much as an 18, 19-year-old guy in a mostly all-guy college could be. If you want to split hairs, I’m sure infatuation was a big part of it. Wendy: Now, my memory of the most romantic thing we would do is we each had little reel-to-reel tape recorders so we would do audio letters to each other, speaking into the tape recorder, often accompanied by music, romantic music that we would choose. CBC: Did you do it at night with the lights out?

Wendy: Probably. Or just when I was able to grab the time. CBC: Like your own little secret world. Wendy: Oh, yeah. Way past my parents’ ken. They were, like, “This is insane.” We would do little dramatic, romantic... [Discussion of Wendy and Richard’s correspondence, of which Richard shows a sample] CBC: [To Wendy] You’re young! And you had a boyfriend that’s the length of a continent

away. Wendy: Well, yes. I mean, there was the phone too... [laughs] CBC: There you go. That helps! $700 for one month’s phone bill!? Wendy: Seven hundred dollars, yes. CBC: Holy smokes! That’s like $3,000 today! Richard: Well, yeah, but back then, long-distance phone calls were metered by the minute… CBC: Oh, I remember! [Wendy laughs] I made a trunk call two towns away every day to a girlfriend that was $100. But $700! Wow. [to Richard] How did you pay it off? You were a student.

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Above: Roy Thomas and Wendy Pini collaborated on a Red Sonja #6 [Nov. ’77] script. Here’s Frank Thorne’s splash page. Inset left: Frank and Wendy during their Sonja and the Wizard stage show, in 1978. Right: Thorne sketch.

Above: The very first appearance of Wendy and Richard Pini’s epic creation appeared in the one-shot Fantasy Quarterly [Spring 1978], published by a disreputable outfit that prompted the couple to become pioneer alternative comics publishers with their WaRP Graphics imprint. Below: WaRP’s ElfQuest #1 [Apr. 1979].

open to diversity, because what if there’s a child out there who can be changed and see possibilities he or she might not otherwise perceive? Sometimes, all it takes is one little thing. It can be a good teacher, seeing someone like him or her on TV… it can be life-changing. Wendy: Diversity and, to that end, another of the most important things: representation. I have a black friend and she and I absolutely swoon over the movie, Imitation of Life, that came out in the ’50s. Way ahead of its time. It’s a Lana Turner vehicle but the actual story is of a black single mother and her daughter who looks light-skinned enough to pass for white. It’s a very famous movie and people like it for different reasons but, to my friend, she said seeing herself onscreen, represented, when it was so rare back then, changed her whole life. Made her feel different about herself. She went into theatre. She’s a great singer. CBC: Do you feel a sense of responsibility in terms of having to represent? Wendy: No. Not responsibility. I’d better not because I can make stupid mistakes, make stupid exceptions. CBC: Just by the example of your… Wendy: Yes. Everybody who is into ElfQuest, has found themselves in one way or another. We have had black people come up to us and say, “This is the first time that I ever saw dark-skinned elves.” In Tolkien fantasy, in fantasy in general, it’s been very, very white! [laughs] Narnia. It’s all got that English/European thing going on and just darkskinned people—elves or humans—are just not a part of it. So they come up to us and say, “You don’t know how grateful I was to see the Sun Folk.” CBC: Wow! Wendy: “Because I finally felt represented in a genre that I love.” CBC: That is great. Wendy: Now, that wasn’t intentional. I wanted the Sun Folk because, first, I thought they were beautiful. You put all those hot colors against brown skin and it’s just wonderful to paint and draw. The second thing was that it made sense to me. These elves, the number one characteristic of their race is that they adapt. If you’re gonna go down and live in the desert, you’re gonna adapt and get darker. That just was logical to me. I never intended to represent or make any kind of a statement but black people who are into ElfQuest come up and let us know and they thank us and that makes me extremely happy. Gay people. Because the Elves have— like me—no morals [laughs], no taboos, anything goes! And we started in with that early on. We started in with hints that there could be threesomes, any sort of combination, and gay people come up to us, from all different persuasions, and say, “I was having trouble with my identity. I couldn’t find anybody else who felt like me or thought like me and then I read ElfQuest and realized it was all right. It was okay to be who I am!” And again, we never set out to make things better for people. But if they could read it, and feel better, because there’s something in there that they could identify with, that’s a miracle! It’s wonderful! CBC: It’s what art is, right? Wendy: I think because it’s very subjective, different people… I mean, we have alt-right white supremacists who are into ElfQuest and they have their own ideas about what ElfQuest is about and it can be very screwed up! [laughs] But they’re attracted to it. I’ve met several of them online! It’s weird. CBC: Well, that gets right back to the responsibility. “We’re gonna read into it what we read into it.” Wendy: They’re going to read into it what they read into it. And some readers completely misconstrue our intentions with the story and, when they write to us and say, “I think it’s this,” we’ll just very gently say, “We suggest you go back and read it again because you’ve missed a couple of things there.” Sometimes, like, we got a review on YouTube. Richard, that young woman and the two guys…? What was the name of that review?

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Richard: Grudgingly and over time. CBC: You worked out a payment schedule. Wendy: Well, yeah. His parents wouldn’t stand for that. He hadda pay it off! Richard: I said I didn’t want to intrude but… [Richard shares Wendy’s drawing of Triton] Wendy: Oh! There it is! That’s the drawing I sent Richard! CBC: Oh, that’s lovely. That’s 1968? Richard: Nineteen sixty-nine. Wendy: That’s the level I was at age 18. Richard: That came on a piece of typing paper, folded… Wendy: I know. It’s a nightmare, isn’t it? Richard: Out of the envelope. Not only did she write back, but there was this! So, now you know why I campaigned to see if she could get that page in the Kirby100 book. CBC: I actually bugged you guys over the years to be a part of the magazine, any magazine I was doing. Is there anything that drove you to connect with me this time? Because you two actually came up to the table at San Diego and told John Morrow you wanted to be in my magazine. Wendy: Well, Richard introduced me to it. CBC: Oh, okay. So you responded to the magazine. Wendy: Sure! And he mentioned the possibility of something. Richard: This is the last I’ll say and you guys can go back but… for so long we used to be at loggerheads about, “We’ll you’re getting more attention than I am.” [Wendy laughs] Early on, there were jealousies. Wendy: Yeah. Richard: More recently, though, and for a while now, I have felt, “Dammit! She’s unique! She should have… she deserves—and I use that word very, very advisedly—recognition for all of the unique things that she is. CBC: “Unique” is what she is, all right! [chuckles] Richard: That’s why, from time to time, I would say, Comic Book Creator. It’s a natural fit. It just jelled and here you are. Wendy: Yeah! And I’m so glad! CBC: Thank you! … This is exactly what I want to do with CBC. Diversity is a very important thing. It really struck me recently. I believe I have an obligation to be

story without fuck-ups! You know? [laughs] So, show the bad behavior and then show the possibility of how it could have been resolved a different way. We get into a situation where it seems like a classic revenge situation. I have to take your life because you took the life of my friend or my father or whatever. We wanted to examine that. Do you? Do you have to get an eye for an eye or is there something else at work here? That’s the whole formula behind ElfQuest here. A situation that you think is gonna go one way and we take it and… ”Whissshh!” CBC: Where did you learn the tropes? Was it Tolkien? Wendy: Oh, sure. Funny thing is I never read Tolkien before I started ElfQuest. A lot of people assumed that Tolkien was an influence. Absolutely not. Moorcock was my guy! [laughs] Moorcock was my big, English/European fantasy guy. I never really knew much about Tolkien until after I started ElfQuest. [high-pitched and drawn out] Mmmmmm… not a big fan. I can see the worthiness of it but… no. CBC: You didn’t read it? You haven’t read ’em? Wendy: Ummm… I tried. [laughs] I read The Hobbit and I tried getting through Lord of the Rings. CBC: Too British maybe or too… ? Wendy: Eh, it’s too “no-women.” [laughs] There’s no sex. CBC: [Laughs] “No sex,” says Wendy Pini. Wendy: No sex, no women. It’s very much a guy thing. I certainly could enjoy the guy stuff between Sam and Frodo. I mean, That’s a Yaoi relationship. “Yaoi” is spelled Y-A-O-I, by the way. Not Y-O-W-I-E.” [snickers] But, no. Tolkien’s not my cup of tea. CBC: Okay, but by my reading, ElfQuest came together

Above: After their flagship title’s initial 21-issue run, Marvel Comics called upon the Pinis to reprint that series for the Epic line. For the 32 issues [Aug. ’85–Mar. ’88], Wendy provided all-new covers for the now-colored title, as well as reformatted the pages for comic-book dimensions, and, lucky for old fans, she also added additional pages. Below: The ElfQuest cast of characters, drawn by Wendy in 1993.

Richard: Canon City Comic Club. Wendy: Canon City Comic Club did a review of ElfQuest calling it, “a look at the longest running fantasy comic in history.” And they took issue with things in the story that told us that they had probably only read the first part of the story. If you read the Classic Quest—which is the first 20 issues—that’s like reading The Hobbit and judging all of the Lord of the Rings off The Hobbit. They were making these remarks about sexism and racism and things that they thought they spotted in ElfQuest. But they hadn’t read far enough. They didn’t realize that our formula for ElfQuest is to take fantasy tropes and flip them on their head… but in order to flip the tropes, you have to show the bad behavior first. For example, when Cutter first meets Leetah, first thing he does is pick her up and fling her over his shoulder, because that’s what Conan used to do, back in comics of the ‘70s. Of course, I was sick and tired of that. Being Red Sonja—I was one of the original Red Sonjas, as you may know—my whole thing was, [laughs] “Not in this neighborhood, dude!” So I had to show the bad behavior of Cutter slinging her over his shoulder and then, in the course of the scene, flip it on its head so that she ends up on top and he ends up on the ground. That was deliberate. [laughs] But obviously, these folks saw the flip over the shoulder and they thought, “Oh this is dated. It’s sexist.” And they didn’t follow through with it. That’s what made it a careless review. You have to know what you’re talking about. You have to grasp what’s being offered to you. So, all through ElfQuest, there are examples of bad behavior. You can’t tell a good

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Bottom this page and next: ElfQuest #2–13 [Sept. 1978–June 1982] of the original 21-issue run self-published by the Pinis. All artwork and colors by Wendy.

really fast. Wendy: Oh, easily! CBC: Where’s the antecedent? Wendy: When I got involved with fandom at age 16, I almost immediately started producing amateur comics that would go into these APA-zines. CBC: What is an APA-zine? Wendy: Amateur Press Association. It was the beginning of fanzines. We used ditto masters back then and there would be, like, 20 or 30 members in a group. Each month or, however often, you would produce your little ’zine. You would do drawings and you would type onto a ditto master sheet and there was a central mailer who put it all together and mailed out the copies. In this case—I was a member of

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Above: Some members of the ElfQuest cast. Top row (from left) Cutter Kinseeker, Leetah, Skywise. Second row: Ember, Sunstream, and Rayek. Bottom row: Winnowill, Venka, and Timmain. Art by Wendy Pini.

CAPA-alpha—the central mailer was Fred Patten. And Fred really supported and encouraged me to do my little comics. There was a guy I worked with on his amateur comic that was called Solara. It was a science fiction super-hero kind of a thing. I think I did an issue or couple of issues of that. Then I started a strip called The Rebels. The Rebels were a group of space-faring teenagers, kind of a tribe, out to find where they really belonged because they didn’t like their home planets. So they wanted to find where they could really live. A typical theme of mine and, again, that was back in my teenage years. CBC: Would you have been Goth in a different generation? Wendy: No. No, because I was never depressed. I just never got depressed. CBC: You definitely would be a loner…? Wendy: I was a loner and I was into dark things. I loved dark, sinister, serious things. But dressing in black, and that vampiric… I don’t like vampires. I have never liked vampires. Never been interested in them. It’s too real. There are people like that in life. There are people who suck the energy out of you. To me, that’s what a vampire is and I don’t find that entertaining. CBC: You talked explicitly about how Elric is an allegory for addiction. Wendy: For drug addiction. CBC: Right. Do you have these complexities within the characters themselves in ElfQuest? Do they suffer from… ? Wendy: Yeah. There are a few characters who have sh*t going on with them. I like to use the term “shadow side.” In the classic hero’s journey, you have your hero and very often the villain or foe in the story is the hero’s shadow. In other words, another character who actually represents the dark side of that hero. In Les Miserables, the hero and the policeman who chases him through the whole story. That’s the hero and his shadow. It’s very symbolic. It’s very spiritual. It’s like, you have to confront your shadow and tame it or conquer it or best of all, befriend it in some way because it’s really part of you and you have to accept it. And to the shadow, the hero is the shadow’s shadow, y’see. The hero is everything the shadow thinks he is, or wants to be. Like you have Cutter and Rayek. Cutter was always Rayek’s nemesis. He comes in and he steals the girl [laughs]. That’s the first thing he does. Then it’s kind of like Coyote and the Road Runner. Poor old Rayek! CBC: The eternal conflict. Wendy: [Laughs] “Eternal conflict”! At the same time, the two guys really have a lot in common. They’re both leaders. They both want what’s best for their people. They just go about it differently and Rayek just keeps thinking he has the right answers and knows what’s best for everybody. The difference between Cutter and Rayek is that Cutter never thinks he has all the answers. He’s into asking questions because he’s like, “I’m lost here. I’m kinda learning by the seat of my pants because this is all new to me so tell me what...” You know? [laughter] “What’s going’ on here?” He’s willing to ask questions. Rayek never is. But Cutter is a good leader because he’s willing to ask questions of his group. “What do you guys all think?” He asks for help. Rayek is a good leader who goes bad which is why he’s the shadow. And Rayek’s story arc is to go through the whole saga and

then finally, in Final Quest, to accept, to embrace… He is with Cutter when Cutter dies. Rayek’s shadow embraces him when he dies. That was very much intended, that the real victory is to make friends. I know I have a very, very strong, dark shadow side to me and my goal throughout life is to make friends with that, not to hate it or reject it or spurn it but to make friends with it. CBC: Have you hated it? Wendy: Sometimes. Because sometimes I don’t like what my shadow side has made me think, especially when it comes to revenge or wishing ill on somebody else because they’ve done something that I hate. You know? CBC: You were performing. You were in theatre; you were oratory, Junior Miss… Wendy: And Red Sonja! [laughs] CBC: You were on The Mike Douglas Show! You were getting some attention for ElfQuest when it started. Wendy: Mm-hm. It happened really, really fast. We weren’t ready for it and it affected us. Our stress went through the roof. CBC: Was it anything like not feeling worthy? Wendy: No. No. CBC: Was the shadow in play at all? That’s a lot of energy that’s coming at you. Wendy: You’re absolutely right. But the shadow, I think for both of us, came into play in the sense that, all right. This has happened. This train is barreling down the tracks. We have to keep up with it. We have to just keep moving with it and deal with all of the input coming at us, as you said, that we had never known before. No, we never had feelings of unworthiness. We knew ElfQuest was good. That’s why, when others rejected us we were, like… Marvel and DC said, “This is too peculiar.” Even a couple of independent publishers said, “Nah, we’re gonna pass. It’s too strange.” That’s why we decided to publish it ourselves. Because we believed in it! So, no, there was never a feeling of being unworthy of the attention. CBC: What was the stress then? Wendy: Keeping up with it. I had to meet those self-imposed deadlines. Richard had to teach himself how to be a publisher, how to market, how to… CBC: It was a brand-new field. Wendy: Absolutely. CBC: You had to kind of invent it. You guys were the first! Wendy: Among the first. I think Dave Sim had Cerebus out and there was Star*Reach. Our role model was First Kingdom by Jack Katz. We chose to go magazine format, black-&-white, just like Bud [Plant] did with First Kingdom. I suppose because First Kingdom was fantasy, and we kind of paid attention to what he was doing—color covers, magazine size, price… everything. We kind of used that as a role model. CBC: Did you have an inclusive audience in mind? Did you say, “Hey, females are really not being catered to within this marketplace”? It was pretty fanboy filled up. Obviously, ElfQuest is an enormously girl-friendly book… it’s an everybody-friendly book. Wendy: Yeah. You see, one thing that was lucky is that I had already established a reputation as a fantasy and sci-fi illustrator. I had been doing covers and interiors for Galaxy

and Worlds of If magazines, and people were very familiar with my work from fanzines or program book covers. My name was known. Phil Seuling and Bud Plant, the two distributors who took our first print run, both knew me through my career as an illustrator. So my name attached to this new comic was more significant than just some amateur off the street trying something. My reputation preceded me. CBC: For some. Wendy: For some, yes. CBC: To others, you were a bolt from the blue, fully formed right out of the gate. That’s one of the astonishing things as you look through the work. Let’s get back to the chronology: With Richard, you guys got together. Did you guys meet in person to get married? Wendy: No! We dated. We saw each other maybe once a year for four years. We decided it was more important for Richard to finish his “tour of duty” at MIT. CBC: Engineering? What was that his major? Wendy: It started out… Richard, was it nuclear physics or something like that? Richard: I declared nuclear physics because I had to declare something and that made the most sense. CBC: Where’d you end up? Richard: Halfway through I rediscovered a love of astronomy that I had since I was a little kid. So I switched majors and I graduated in astronomy and astrophysics. CBC: Okay, you graduated. When did you start with IBM? Wendy: [To Jon] Oh, but you shouldn’t skip his years at the Boston Museum of Science, because that’s when he and I first started working together as a team, y’see. Richard: Really quickly, I got out of MIT, and this was 1972, and the job market, because of oil embargoes… the economy was kind of in a slump. The astronomy industry was never very robust… [laughter] So I ended up getting a job as a writer-lecturer-you-name-it jack-of-all-trades at the Hayden Planetarium, at the Boston Museum of Science. CBC: Wow, that’s like a dream job, isn’t it? Wendy: It was. Richard: It turned into one. The first time I ever had to go out on stage is what taught me how to work an audience. CBC: That’s good!

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Top: Wendy and Richard surrounded by ElfQuest merchandise in 1990. Above: Vintage ElfQuest T-shirt. Below: Wendy’s drawing from 1980 seen in ElfQuest: The Final Quest #3 [June 2017], which remarks that the cartoon Richard’s “Where the Hell is Poughkeepsie?” T-shirt is an actual thing.

The Pinis Cameo in Isabella’s Ghost Rider I knew Wendy and Richard Pini from CAPA-Alpha. I knew Wendy first, then Richard. We all hated Richard because we all loved Wendy. We warmed up to him eventually. They visited me in the Marvel offices where they were amazed that I recognized them immediately. I mean, they just looked liked Wendy and Richard, you know? They invited me to be a guest at some one-day convention near where they lived. It might have been Baltimore. I recall taking a train there, hanging out at their apartment for a bit either before or after the show. Anyway, when I decided to turn Ghost Rider into more of a super-hero book than it had been, I took my cues from the Joe Simon/Jack Kirby Stuntman and the original Black Cat. Since Johnny Blaze would be a working stuntman, I needed to fill out the cast of characters with other people working on the show. I asked Wendy and Richard if I could add them to the cast, she as a costume designer and he as a special events designer. They were more than okay with that. It was just a fun thing to do. This page: Clockwise from above is panel from Ghost Rider #14 [Oct. 1975], with art by George Tuska and Vince Colletta; cover of same by Ron Wilson and Frank Giacoia. Science teacher Richard Pini from the 1978 Journal yearbook of Taunton High School; Hayden Planetarium, where Richard worked upon graduating MIT; and, on occasion, Wendy produced illustrations for Richard’s planetarium slide shows.

Wendy: And on the artistic side… because he also became one of the staff photographers for imagery that went up on the Planetarium dome… Richard: If I wrote a show, and I wanted an image from Greek mythology or something, I could go to a book, or I could also turn to her. CBC: Just go in the living room. Richard: “Do me Zeus holding a thunderbolt,” and it would be in her style and it would be wonderful and animated because of her love of animation. Wendy: My favorite was Paul Bunyan. He was just telling the story of Paul Bunyan because it related to the heavens. Richard: Why are there craters on the moon? There’s a bobcat in the moon… CBC: Is this like that Walt Disney thing? Wendy: Exactly! Richard: Just like Pecos Bill. CBC: Yeah, yeah. That’s it. Richard: So she would do these little two- to three-frame animations and our projectors would animate them on the

dome. It was great, great fun. CBC: Wow! And you were there four years. Richard: Four years. And then, from there… CBC: Did you leave there? Richard: I left there because I realized it was a dead-end job. There was no advancement. At that time, a new high school was opening up at Taunton, Massachusetts. It was a huge new school with all the bells and whistles including a planetarium—a smaller one than Boston—and they were looking for a planetarium director, so I applied there and I got that job. Wendy continued to help me produce shows. I was God with my own universe, which was very, very wonderful. [Wendy laughs] But it had its stresses as well. I had to become a teacher! CBC: [Laughs] And deal with kids. Richard: I loved the kids. Hated the administration. This was a mill town. This was an economically depressed town. They didn’t get having brains. And I was stressed, dealing with them. The breaking point was one afternoon I was on potty patrol, because every teacher had to do potty patrol, kids smoking in the bathroom. CBC: “Smokin’ in the Boys’ Room.” Richard: Walking down the hall, already feeling stressed, I kicked what I thought was a pebble and I went to pick it up and it was a live 25 caliber round of ammunition. Wendy: Mmmm-hmmm. Richard: So somebody in that school had bullets if not a gun. Then I said, “This is enough.” Wendy saved my life, because a very good friend of mine from college was already working up here, in Poughkeepsie, at IBM. She asked him, “Could you see if you can get Richard a job at IBM?” and he got me some interviews and that’s what moved us to Poughkeepsie. Actually, it’s 40 years ago this month. CBC: Nineteen seventy-nine? Richard: Seventy-nine. Wendy: And we, of course, had already started ElfQuest by then. We were about four issues in. Richard: Four or five issues into it. CBC: Where were you living when you started it? Just before that?

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Things were really different back then. Whoever was the editor-in-chief at the time was okay with it. There were no lawyers involved. We just did it. I don’t think anyone else used them in Ghost Rider after I left the title. Things were much different several years later. I used my pal Bob Ingersoll, who was a public defender in Cleveland and the author of “The Law is a Ass” column for Comics Buyer’s Guide, in an issue of Marvel Team-Up. Bob even sent a photo of himself to the editor of that issue. However, when the book came out, they had changed the pencils so that Bob no longer looked like Bob. They claimed it was because they hadn’t gotten permission from Bob to use the likeness he had sent to them. Yeah, the comics industry has never made any logical sense in the nearly half-century I’ve been in it. —TONY ISABELLA

Wendy: We lived in several places in Boston. CBC: Around the time you worked in Taunton. Richard: We were living close to Taunton. Bridgewater. Wendy: Bridgewater. ElfQuest was born in Bridgewater, Massachusetts, at the Waterford Village apartments. CBC: Wow. Why? Wendy: Why was it born there? CBC: No, not there. Just, why was it born? Wendy: I sat him down. It was 1977. Ralph Bakshi had come out with a fantasy cartoon called Wizards, which blew my mind! Especially the art of Mike Ploog, who drew so close to the way I drew. Someone else drew just like me! I was amazed. Then out comes Star Wars, blowing everybody’s mind and letting us know that the world is ready to embrace huge, epic fantasy storytelling. It was a time of real expansion for fantasy. Lord of the Rings was on its next surge of popularity. So I sat him down and I told him the story that I had kind of had on my mind. He fell in love with it. CBC: You already had the ending in mind? Wendy: Not exactly. That would come over the next months. I had a vague idea, but the hero’s journey where I wanted this to go was pretty much worked out. CBC: You guys fed off of each other’s energy on this? “Oh, yeah!” And you started coming up with ideas? Wendy: Richard, do you remember immediately diving in with co-creation or did I tell you the story and you just said, “Let’s do this?” Richard: You told me the story and I loved it. I said, “Let’s do this.” My love affair with comics was on the wane. We were both Marvel fans. That’s how we met, but by the early to mid-’70s, it was feeling formulaic to me and the idea of doing something ourselves as opposed to just consuming, that was exciting. I had no idea what it would entail but just the thought of, ‘Yes. Let’s us do something” was appealing. Wendy: I think he fell in love with it because of Skywise. Because of the Elf astronomer. [giggles] Richard: That would come later, but it was just the idea of doing something of our own. I had been working day-jobs all my life. You had been doing conventions and so on, and getting your artwork some exposure. It just felt like an exciting thing to do. And then the collaboration on the story developed with me adding some science background. We always wanted this to be a very consistent saga, with rules that you stick to and no magic swords that you pull out of your butt to solve problems. There’s gotta be an explanation. I found myself helping… explain things. Wendy: Absolutely! CBC: So when you saw story holes, you figured out how to fix ’em. Wendy: When it comes to fantasy, I’ve never been a fan of the Harry Potter style of fantasy where you wave your wand and “poof,” you can make something appear or you wave your wand and, “poof,” you’re flying, or any of that stuff. I like what seems to be magic to have a scientific basis so anything the elves could do is because they are part of an alien race that was capable of energy manipulation. So anything they do that looks like magic is actually telekinesis, levitation, fire-starting… it’s all energy manipulation. CBC: You like it to be anchored. Wendy: Mmmm-hmmm. I’d like it to be anchored in, you know, Star Trek-level. CBC: Was Star Trek big with you?

Wendy: Yeeeeeah! Classic Trek! CBC: TOS forever! When did you clue into it? Wendy: Well, when it first came out. It was one of the few things that my father and I could enjoy together. He liked it. CBC: Were you hot for Spock? Wendy: No, I wasn’t “hot” for him. I enjoyed him. CBC: Ilya Kuryakin and Mr. Spock were big sex symbols back in the day. Wendy: Not for me. Let me see. Who did I…? I had a crush on Race Bannon from Jonny Quest. Go figure. CBC: [Laughs] Do you have an eternal gay man inside you or something? Wendy: Easily. CBC: Because Race Bannon… Wendy: He’s a gay icon, I know. I think this is why Mike Pence isn’t being as hassled as he should be. [giggles] CBC: “Mommy!” [laughter] Wendy: But, no, I did not have a crush on Spock. I had a crush on… the family concept of Star Trek. It was a family, with the three— Spock, McCoy, and Kirk—and the Vulcan mythology and all that. I am so delighted to say that Dorothy Fontana, D.C. Fontana, is one of my closest friends. CBC: Oh, really? Wow! Wendy: Met her back in ’74 when she bid on a piece of artwork of mine during an auction. The sense of hope… (You often use the word “hope” during this interview.) The hopefulness, the positivity, the inclusivity, which was all remarkable at the time, in the mid-1960s. CBC: The Vietnam War was going on, social strife. Wendy: Star Trek was a picture of how things could be if we all treat ourselves as well as we can. That’s the kind of storytelling I wanted to do. CBC: You know, I’m slowly coming into this philosophy—I don’t know how true it is. That’s why I ask it—that art is a way of rewriting our own lives, of making… Because life in itself is chaotic. There’s an ending, but there’s not necessarily distinct order to it; it’s all this big mix of stuff, and maybe that’s what art is: to make sense of it, for ourselves, to help in our own personal quest. Through art—fiction, storytelling, etc.—we can rewrite the story of our lives in some way. Do you see

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Above: Wendy Pini poster design for the Ralph Bakshi animated movie Wizards. Below: Recently deceased Dorothy C. Fontana, Star Trek TOS story editor, who became a friend of the Pinis. Bottom: The Star Trek original series, which, through the tight-knit crew of the Starship Enterprise, emanated an appealing sense of family for young Wendy Fletcher. Inset left: ElfQuest’s Skywise, based on Richard’s love of the stars.

Above: The birthplace of ElfQuest, the Waterford Village Apartments, in Bridgewater, Mass., where the Pinis were living when Richard was a science teacher at nearby Taunton High School. Above right: Letterhead during that period. Below: Cutter character model sketches. Next page: At top is a 1980–81 jam piece, evidence that Wendy had achieved peer status with the comic industry’s top talents. Far right is Wendy and Frank Thorne jam. At bottom: In the 1980s, WaRP published an ElfQuest companion anthology, Yearnings, edited by Jane Fancher and Richard Pini.

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ElfQuest as rewriting your life in one way as you’d like it? I mean, we’re constantly returning to the theme of family. Wendy: Yes. CBC: We started with a broken family. Wendy: Yes. CBC: Have you found a family within ElfQuest? Wendy: Yes. Richard and I decided, even before we got married, that we weren’t going to have children. Neither one of us felt like we had parental instincts. We were busy re-raising ourselves. When ElfQuest came along, that was like creating a child. That’s how it felt for us. And over the years, a family grew around it, a gigantic family of millions of fans who, on an unusual level, we interact with. Richard and I have always made ourselves more accessible than most creators do, and it’s been a kind of co-creation. That’s a huge family! We can go most places in the world and people will know who we are because of our work. Doors will open to us in friendship because of our work. Last year, when we did our Final Quest signing tour, we went over to France and engaged with European fans. We had no idea how many there were! They came from all over, some from 500 miles away to visit us in Paris or Marseilles or Brussels, and the outpouring of love and affection for ElfQuest and their just… intricate knowledge of the story! They were quoting us back stuff that we’d forgotten! That is the family now. That was achieved, that we can go anywhere and the doors of friendship are open. CBC: How about within the art itself, within the characters, within the story? Is there a remaking of family? You could play it out, right? Wendy: Oh, yeah. Well, Cutter is me. Skywise is Richard. Cutter, everything that happens in ElfQuest kind of comes at him and he has to deal with it by the seat of his pants. He has to invent ways that he’s never been confronted with before and he often turns to either his best friend, Skywise, or to the advice of the whole tribe to figure out. He has to make the decision. His decision is final, but he makes it based on what seems to be

the best for all. That’s really how I’ve gotten through this ever since ElfQuest started and it was a very new—brandnew—experience for me, meeting those deadlines, plotting out these stories on a regular basis, meeting obligations I have never had to meet before. And sort of being the leader in the sense of the artwork and the story comes from me, so it’s a form of leadership so it led me to examine the nature of leadership and how much responsibility is too much responsibility and when should you admit that you can’t handle something? And when should you take on more than you really think you can, you know? That’s why there was always so much material for ElfQuest and we never ran out of stories to tell. CBC: You talk about human dynamics and relationships, nature itself. Wendy: Exactly. CBC: So, with that, when did you come to the semblance of… “I’m a leader”? Was it really a struggle because those are some tight deadlines, right? I mean, some stress that comes with it. Wendy: The thing I like the least about the business is deadlines. You become aware that if you mess up on your end, there are many people down the line that are dependent on you providing something that you promised to do. “I will get this done by such-and-such a date.” Good. Because then so-and so-can get his part done, so-and-so can do her part, on down the line. You mess up and everything has to be rescheduled for them. Mess up enough, and that issue isn’t coming out when you advertised it. Do that often enough, then your audience, who are also depending on you, starts to lose faith in you and they wonder, “Can I depend on this title now?” That’s why it feels like a position of leadership. You are responsible for leading this tribe through what you promised to do, and meeting that obligation. One thing that we learned is if you do go away for a period of time, people forget you very quickly. They may love what you have to offer but you disappear… After we finished the Classic Quest, the first 21 issues, I had to have surgery on my hip and it would take months to recover from that. So I went away, the artwork went away, the story went away, and when we returned with the next series, it was quite a blow to discover that a chunk of our audience had left us. By then the industry itself had changed. There was less room on the shelves, there were more black-&-white comics out there to compete with… CBC: Was there co-opting of the audience you had? Wendy: Our audience went looking for their next fix and we weren’t supplying the drug anymore. CBC: Do you see, in retrospect, that somebody came in to fill that vacuum? Were there knockoffs? Wendy: Well, there were parodies. CBC: Somebody who was really trying to get your audience? Wendy: I don’t think so. The next big thing was the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which I believe debuted in 1985. We finished in ’84. So, there we are. We go bye-bye in ’84, and here comes the Turtles. And then every kind of knockoff of the Turtles. Every adjective was used.

Jam illustration characters TM & © the respective copyright holders. Red Sonja TM & © Red Sonja, LLC. Yearnings, ElfQuest TM & © Warp Graphics, Inc.

CBC: You can say that as far as sales go, but they certainly don’t attract the same audience, do they? Wendy: I don’t know. I do know that people were continuing to look to alternative comics for something more than the super-heroes. CBC: Well, there was reader that I remember who would come into the comic store and they would buy Chris Claremont’s X-Men and they would look for maybe something else and ElfQuest was a part of that. Wendy: Yes. CBC: Basically, you could almost say, in a very generalized way, it was gay-friendly. It was all-gender friendly. It wasn’t about punching people out, these masculine fantasies. That was taking place in virtually every other book. The whole Jim Shooter-verse was about pounding the crap out of each other and all that kind of stuff. But then you had the… That was a wonderful time! You guys helped to open the door for diversity! Wendy: Diversity, yes, especially bringing women readers in. CBC: There you go. That’s really what I’m saying. And there were not that many titles that were able to attract that. Having stopped for a period of time, you must have gotten nagged. Wendy: I vaguely remember that. I’m sure Richard took the brunt of it because I was busy with my health issues. CBC: Good! You had enough to take care of taking care of yourself. Wendy: But I think one of the biggest shocks was how unkind and unforgiving people could be. I remember we committed to being guests at a convention and then certain problems rose up with me that needed attention and I had to notify them that I couldn’t attend as a guest after all. And apparently the resentment was so big back then that to this day, occasionally, I still hear about it! The downside to having this enormous interaction with your audience, and fandom, and the politics of fandom, and the politics of running conventions, and being a convention guest, and what they expect of you, again, meeting expectations... the downside of it all is discovering how petty, how cruel, people can be when their expectations aren’t met. That was something that got incorporated into the ElfQuest story and we also dealt with as a theme. CBC: Wow. Talk about cathartic. Wendy: If, from the very beginning, when I would hide in my room and draw, if that was cathartic then, it only makes sense that there’s a pattern, a habit, of taking what’s ugly and uncomfortable and making sense out of it in a story. And that’s why I’m not a drug addict. [laughter] CBC: Okay, let’s get to how I first became aware of you, through a remarkable… Well, let me just say, this is how it was: cosplay, back in the day, started out as basically costume contests. Wendy: Yes. CBC: But then there was Heidi Saha. Wendy: Yes. CBC: And then there was Angelique. Wendy: Yes. CBC: With Heidi, you’d go and look at that and be like, “That girl’s too young to be

walking around in a Vampirella costume and Angelique is… [laughs] kind of too old!” I liked them both, but they were at opposite ends. Wendy: Angie was a burlesque dancer, a stripper. CBC: Right. So you had these two extremes, and then all of a sudden you had Wendy Pini. Wendy Pini shows up as Red Sonja and it’s a hell of an act that’s completely inyour-face and theatrical… [Wendy chuckles] Where did that come from? Where did the whole Red Sonja thing come from? Wendy: That came from belly-dancing. In the first few years of our marriage, as a hobby, as a way of getting exercise, I took a belly-dancing class at the college in Bridgewater (Massachusetts). I was taught by a beautiful teacher named Marlena Celia. She was Italian, actually. But, boy, did she look Middle-Eastern. She was a beauty. So I started taking classes regularly and, apparently, I was very good at it. And I loved to design costumes. CBC: You’d danced onstage before, though. Wendy: I had, but it’s all so ironic because of this congenital hip displacement thing. I had ten good years, my 20s, of being able to dance on stage and then, when I was around 29, the arthritis hit me and I started to seize up and the dancing went out of my life. Things went south very quickly with my hips. So, it was like a gift I was given for about ten years where I could perform and dance. CBC: And this includes the Red Sonja years. Wendy: Absolutely. By being so dedicated and enjoying the belly-dancing so much, and actually performing semi-professionally, I could go out with Marlena during her performances

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Above: The success of ElfQuest spawned a plethora of spin-off items, including role playing games, board games, prose novels, and the like. Included is a button drawn by Wendy.

Below: The initial ElfQuest magazine-sized 21-issue run [1978–’85] was collected into a four-volume full-color series published by the Donning Company under their Starblaze imprint.

and I would dance onstage at times when she was off stage. I would do a bit and then she would come back on. What was I? The “entr’acte”? [laughs] So, yeah, I was pretty good at it and the side-benefit was that without even thinking about it, I got into belly-dancing shape. I was built like a greyhound. We were at a comic convention in Boston, and Frank Thorne, who was the artist and just the power behind Red Sonja then, spotted me. We were already fans of Red Sonja. CBC: So it was in Marvel Feature at the time? This was right in the beginning, pretty much, right, of Frank’s reinvention? Wendy: Richard, had the individual series of Red Sonja come out by then? Richard: I couldn’t tell you. You’d have to look up the dates. This would have been early ’76, that convention. Because Sonja-Con was November ’76. CBC: Yeah, that’s right about when Marvel Feature #1 [Nov. 1975] came out. Wendy: Yeah. So, Richard, we met Frank and then, a few months after that, we did the first Sonja-Con, right? Richard: Yeah, he said to you in Boston, “Why didn’t you throw your hat in the ring?” Wendy: Yeah, he wanted me to…

CBC: So, you had the long locks and… Wendy: I didn’t have the Sonja hair. I’ve never had that much hair. The costume was a real costume and as far as the hair goes, that was four wigs. CBC: Four? Wendy: Four different red wigs, put together, sewn together, to give that “Frank Thorne” effect! CBC: Wow. Wendy: As far as the costume goes, one of the things I wanted was authenticity. Because we had seen other interpretations of Sonja where the girls were using bellydancing bangles that were plastic. You know, to look like the chain mail, scale bikini. But I wanted authentic armor so Richard, bless his heart, went and found 500 steel discs and drilled holes and then I sewed them onto the bikini. CBC: With a lot of lining, I’d think, right? Wendy: Leather! This was authentic. I used leather. CBC: I mean, you’ve gotta keep the chain mail off your skin, right? Wendy: Yeah. I used what I thought Sonja would have used. And then the shoulder guards were real metal. It was a wire armature built up with, like… kind of like an epoxy putty, and then soldered, actually soldered to give it that metallic effect. The sword? We found a long harpoon at an

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Photos by Jon B. Cooke

antique store somewhere and polished that up and [laughs] I think Richard took a doorknob and attached that to the other end to make the hilt and we did the crosspiece somehow. CBC: Was it heavy? Wendy: The whole thing came to about 25 pounds. CBC: And the sword? Wendy: Yes. We still have the sword downstairs. Richard: Actually, it’s at Columbia with the rest. Wendy: Oh, then the whole Red Sonja gear is at Columbia University now. Long story short: I entered the lookalike contest and the other girls came on with their belly-dancing plastic bangles and did their little burlesque acts and then I came on and I clanked! When I walked, I clanked! I had a really good grasp of the character and when I walked I just knew how she’d talk and I… CBC: Just before I came here, I got an email from my friend Steven Thompson who said you burst into the room and marched right up to Frank waving the sword and tossing out coins. [laughs] He said you were the only one in full-performance mode and scared everybody in the room! Wendy: Oh, yeah! It was scary. Any time I had the costume in, I stayed in character, I never broke. So everything I did was what I felt Sonja would do and she was just not taking anything from anybody. [laughs] Over the course of time, over a year or so, Richard and I, with Frank, developed the idea of the traveling Red Sonja and the Wizard Show. I don’t know if you’ve seen the video online, but you might enjoy watching. It’s the only record of it now. Some wonderful fan caught most of the show on Super-8 film. And again, this goes back to Richard’s and my days at the planetarium. We had experience working together as a team using slide effects to animate my artwork. So for The Red Sonja and the Wizard Show, Richard was our technician and at one point there was a dancing unicorn that was animated from my drawings. Richard used two slide projectors to make the unicorn dance across the stage. And then we had a demon, a monster, and he was animated with different movements and Red Sonja slays the demon onstage. It was before its time! If you consider 1978, I’d say there’d never been anything like it at a comic convention. It was a brandnew, multimedia performance at a comic book convention. CBC: How was Frank? Was he lecherous at all? A little bit? Wendy: If he was, it was in the sweetest, most delicious… [Jon chuckles] Of course, he was a horny fellow! But he was in love with Sonja. So anybody who did Sonja, they were all his loves. There was a bunch of girls. But I was the “go-to” Sonja. I was the actress and he knew that he and I together could pull it off and give a full performance. CBC: Well, yeah. You were charming, too. That was a part of it. Not only were you beautiful, you transcended the inherent sexuality, the objectification, of what the character is. Boobs and ass and all that stuff. Wendy: Yes, that’s how we looked at it. CBC: They looked beyond that, immediately going to the eyes and going, “Wow! She’s got chutzpah!” [Wendy laughs] Wendy: That’s how we felt about it. We would often talk about it that way. Frank would say to me, “We must protect her. We must preserve the spirit of Sonja.” When I had that outfit on, I felt like I was fully dressed. I never felt three-quarters naked. CBC: If somebody was leering at you, were you still in character? Were you, like, “Hey, buddy! Hey!” Wendy: Oh, I would give what I called “the stare.” If someone made a raunchy comment, I would look at him like, “You wanna come over here and say that?” I also got very good with my dagger. I was extremely fast and I had the dagger fixed to my thigh. I could pull that thing out in the space of a split second. There were threatening gestures, facial expressions. I knew all the “back off” signals. But oddly enough, I didn’t have to put up with too much of that. CBC: The fanboys were scared to death. Wendy: One incident that happened that was pretty memorable was when Frank and I hosted the 1978 masquerade at San Diego Con, where we gave our last performance of The Red Sonja and the Wizard Show. Richard and I were already getting into ElfQuest and phasing out of the show. CBC: And you had the hip thing. Wendy: And that was coming, too. But I was still perfectly fine for dancing COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

This page: Richard shares that the sword the Pinis exhibit here “is a recreation of Cutter’s sword, New Moon, done by the legendary C.C. Beck. Aside from being the original artist on Captain Marvel in 1940, Beck had the hobby of making replicas of historical and fictional weapons entirely out of paper, card stock, and balsa wood. He was a fan of what we were doing with ElfQuest and offered to make New Moon for us as a gift. In the story, there’s a key (to a treasure trove) disguised as the pommel of the sword and C.C. went the extra mile to make his recreation accurate, including the secret key and the hidden peg you had to remove to get the key out of the hilt.”

This page: At top left is Wendy’s page from She-Hulk #50 [Apr. ’93]. Inset is Warp Graphics logo. Next page: Top is ElfQuest 25th Anniversary Special [Sept. ’03], published by DC Comics and below is Eclipse’s one-shot parody, Elf-Thing [Mar. ’87]. 62

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back then. So we were hosting and there was this guy—I think he was a local talk show host—in a Thor getup and we rehearsed with him because he was a local celebrity and he introduced everything. What we worked out was that he would come on, introduce the masquerade, and then I would enter, chase him offstage with the sword, and then Frank and I would take over the announcing. And it was all supposed to be a professional, well-understood little bit of theatrics. So, it’s time, he comes on, he announces, I come on with my sword out, ready to chase him off, just like we’d rehearsed, and he turns to me and says, “Well, if it’s good enough for Frank, it’s good enough for me,” and he leaps on me, onstage, grabs me, breaks my costume, and plants one on my lips. I remember my instant reaction was to shove, and I said, at the top of my lungs, “Let go of me, you asshole.” Right onstage. And he jumped back because he wasn’t expecting that. And he looked at me and I remember he fled offstage. I was so furious! My mind was… I wanted to go after him with the sword, because… you know! CBC: So it was Sonja and Wendy reacting to being jumped. Wendy: But in theater, you don’t do that. You don’t betray your partner who you’ve rehearsed with in theater. And you especially don’t betray ’em that way. That was an assault and I took it very seriously. And because it happened all onstage, it was humiliating in front of an entire audience. And then Frank and I had to go ahead and host the whole two-hour masquerade after that. So I had to pull it together. But that was the first time that someone really stepped out of line and grabbed me. Otherwise, most of

the experiences doing Red Sonja were just great, and people played along with it and enjoyed the characterization and all that. That was the one bad incident. CBC: You got to be too busy, right? Wendy: Oh, sure. And there developed kind of a rift with Frank because he didn’t want me to stop. CBC: Did you get paid at all? Wendy: Never. And that was another reason to phase out Red Sonja, because friends of ours in the business were asking us, “You know, Marvel’s taking advantage of you. You’re doing all this, getting Marvel all this publicity, and they’re not doing anything for you. Is it really worth it?” That really made us realize that we were devoting a lot of energy to something we didn’t own, weren’t being compensated for, and we had already begun ElfQuest. CBC: Did people recognize your name, connected with Red Sonja? Do you think that people would go, “Oh! That’s the woman who played Red Sonja!” when they saw ElfQuest? Wendy: Well, Marvel helped. In the Savage Sword of Conan, the big, black-&-white magazine, they gave me a page where they published some of my artwork and a little bit of writing. Also, Roy Thomas and Frank invited me to write an issue of Red Sonja. That was my first professional work in comics. In that sense, Marvel did support me, but for the performances, no. CBC: But you were able to capitalize on it. Wendy: Yeah, that’s how my name became associated. CBC: And then you came out with this kick-ass comic series that people just recognize. Certainly, the artistry was fantastic! What was the first one called? Wendy: Fantasy Quarterly #1, published by an unscrupulous independent publisher. CBC: Are they still around? Wendy: I don’t know. Richard, the guy, Tim Donahue. Is he still around? CBC: Did he ever amount to anything at all? Richard: He might he playing cards with Jimmy Hoffa for all I know. [laughter] CBC: Really! Wendy: Probably. Probably! [laughs] Richard: There’s a whole story there. CBC: You found out really quick, though. Richard: Yeah, within a few weeks, when he wasn’t paying us, wasn’t giving us anything, wasn’t returning calls. Wendy: Yeah, and he was also withholding my original artwork. Even though he didn’t have our permission, he was gonna try and pirate the original art and put out the second issue against our wishes. Because we didn’t like the first issue, because he didn’t do what he said he was gonna do. We thought it looked cheap and awful. I remember crying. CBC: Did you get the art back? Wendy: Humph! This is a story you have to hear. Richard: He wasn’t returning my calls, he wasn’t returning my calls, he wasn’t returning my calls, so one Saturday morning, I got… CBC: Where was he located? Richard: He was in Michigan, near Lansing. We were living near Boston. And, one Saturday morning, I got up and I said, “I’ve had enough of this crap.” And these were the days when I could drive to Boston airport and for, like, $29, get on a local, regional flight and I flew from Boston to Detroit, rented a car. I had his address. I knocked on the door. He wasn’t there. I sat down in the stoop to wait. A couple hours later here he comes, walking up the sidewalk and he saw me there, and that was one of the most satisfying moments of my life seeing the look on his face. I said, “We need to talk.” And we went in, we talked, and I left with her artwork. He didn’t pay, but we took care of that another way later. So I got her artwork back. CBC: So you were able to get the money, too? Richard: Eventually. At that time, there were two distributors—Bud Plant and Phil Seuling—and we knew both of them. I said, “Guys, this a-hole is screwing us. Is there any way instead of paying him, you could just pay us directly?” And the direct market was still kind of new and untamed. They didn’t particularly like doing that, but they were willing to because of our friendship. CBC: Wow. Richard: That first issue, 10,000 copy print run, sold out in a month or two.

They knew that this was something to follow, so they were more willing to listen to us and to take us on when we decided to publish it ourselves with our own company WaRP Graphics than they might otherwise have been. But from that point on, when that book sold out, we knew, “Okay, we’ve got something here.” So that’s how we got paid. CBC: Who came up with the name, WaRP Graphics—Wendy and Richard Pini Graphics? Richard: That was me thinking I was clever. CBC: It is clever! Nice acronym. Richard: I love wordplay, I love puns. She hates it. She’ll smack me if I come up with a particularly tortured pun. CBC: I still think today it should be capital “W” and lower-case “a” and capital “RP.” I like it. Richard: But you see, we had already used that. We had already used the WaRP acronym two or three years earlier. She was doing, as she said, covers for Galaxy, Worlds of If, and all the little digest-sized science-fiction magazines. For a couple of them she wanted my help in doing space scenes or airbrushing some smoke. One cover from 1975 featured a car from hell and we signed it on the license plate and that’s when I came up with the WaRP acronym because we had both worked on the cover so we should both sign it. And that’s where that first appeared. CBC: Very clever. Where were we? In getting the payment from Bud and Phil, do you think it was also them knowing you from the conventions? Wendy: Yeah, especially Phil. We got to know Bud well, but we did have more experience with Phil, first. CBC: Phil was on The Mike Douglas Show with you. Wendy: Well, that was his idea! You see, Mike Douglas knew the comic convention was in town, in Philadelphia, that year and he wanted a super-hero guest. Mike was expecting Captain America or Superman or something. Phil thought it would be hilarious if it was Red Sonja. So they had me in the Green Room, with Fabian and General William Westmoreland. Fabian was weird. He didn’t say anything. He just kind of looked me up and down. I was in character and as I said, anytime I was in costume, I stayed in character, so I was just very proud and aloof. You know. CBC: How was the war criminal? [laughs] Wendy: Well, he was on the phone. He kept looking over in my direction and then finally, to whoever he was talking to he said, “I’m sorry if I sound a little off here. It’s just that there’s this woman in full armor sitting here. [Jon laughs] And then he got off the phone and he said, “I didn’t realize we were at war.” CBC: You should have taken that sword and lopped that head off! Wendy: No, but I did stick it up Jamie Farr’s nose! To get onto the stage, there was a revolving door that they used to bring on the guests so I was back there behind the door, waiting for my cue from Mike: “Let’s have our super-hero!” And the two guys that were backstage there—technicians or whatever—one of ’em said, “Y’know, we had Farrah Fawcett here yesterday and if she had half of what you have… !” [laughs loudly] I thought that was great! CBC: That’s just what you want to hear! Wendy: Yep, that’s just what I wanted to hear, but they gave me my cue and I went slamming out the door. I headed straight for Jamie Farr and just grabbed him by the shirt front! ’Cuz Jamie was a comics fan! HE knew who I was. He goes, COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

“Red Sonja!!!” Apparently Mike Douglas was highly offended. He very much disapproved of the trick that Phil had played on him because he felt his Midwestern audience would be offended by a girl in a bikini. CBC: I looked at that as I was driving over here. [Wendy chuckles] You looked wonderful. Wendy: Thank you! It was wonderful and fun. I was glad to be the go-to Sonja. But we left at the right time. CBC: There’s a marketing sensibility. Is it just intuitive with you guys? Wendy: It’s nothing I can explain, but we have a gift for knowing when to jump ship. [laughter] I think timing has been everything to us. We caught lightning in a bottle. We brought ElfQuest out when the whole world was receptive to something like it, where it wouldn’t have been receptive before. And we didn’t take no for an answer. That’s another thing. When we got rejected by Marvel and DC—and they didn’t say, “This is awful.” They didn’t say, “This is really bad drawing.” They said, “This is too peculiar.” They used the words “odd,” “peculiar.” CBC: But hadn’t Marvel done Weirdworld? Wendy: No! Weirdworld was Marvel’s answer to ElfQuest! Richard: I have to jump in. Wendy: What? Richard: In the interest of accuracy, Weirdworld appeared in ’77.

Wendy: It did? Richard: Yeah, so I suspect that Marvel was reading the tea leaves of Wizards and Star Wars the same as we were. Wendy: But I heard from people inside Marvel that they were hoping to capture the ElfQuest audience. CBC: Well, it did come out on two or three different incarnations. Richard: It did come out for a bunch of issues after ElfQuest and, in fact, there was a reincarnation in the ’80s, I think, or maybe later, and yes, they saw how fervent the reaction was to ElfQuest and they saw our sales figures climbing every issue so, yes, they wanted a piece of that pie but strictly accurately, Weirdworld could not have been influenced by ElfQuest. CBC: I think originally Marvel was going to get the The Hobbit license, and after that fell through their fingers, they created their own knock-off. There’s a convoluted history behind that, too, and then there’s Buscema was a part of it and, before that, I think, Mike Ploog, right? Wendy: I think Ploog was first. Richard: Ploog first, and he left with some acrimony. [to Wendy] Wasn’t it Ploog’s art in Wizards that you reacted to? Wendy: That’s what I was saying before. Mike Ploog drew elves then exactly like I had been drawing elves for ten years. In fact, in our book, Line of Beauty, that Richard wrote and put together, we did a section on Wizards, because over the years, as Wizards is released and re-released, there’s always a surge of people asking, “Were you influenced by Wizards?” No. I had been drawing elves like that all my life, easily ten years prior to Wizards. So, in Line of Beauty, there’s a piece of my artwork, of an elfin celebration, and then Ploog’s beautiful painting that went into Wizards of an elfin party and you look at the two of them together and it looks like the same artist. That’s what astonished me so much about Wizards— Ploog’s work. CBC: Just to get the chronology right, you did The Rebels. Wendy: Mmmm-hmmmm.

This page: “FutureQuest” ElfQuest series, The Rebels and Jink [both 1994–96], each lasted for 12 issues and featuring the writing of John Ostrander (Jink) and Bern Harkins (Rebels). At right is Wendy’s illo of the couple at work for the cover of Comics Buyer’s Guide #1230 [June 13, 1997]. 64

our two original ideas. That’s how it works now. We don’t fight because I think we’ve discovered that that’s a tremendous waste of time, a tremendous waste of energy and we are fully aware that there’s more of our lives behind us than before us. So if there’s more that we want to accomplish, let’s not waste time. Let’s not pick hills to die on that aren’t worth it. That’s where things are now. CBC: So the dynamics are internal. It’s not necessarily external dynamics that take place. Wendy: You mean how we respond to external… CBC: Yeah, like a job, other people… Wendy: I’ll tell you one thing: Other people do not interfere in our lives as much as they did in those early years, where we felt so much expectation, so much obligation. No, we’ve learned that, in the end, take care of yourself first. It’s like they say on the airplane: put your own oxygen mask on first before you put the mask on the child next to you. That’s what we do. We put our own masks on first. CBC: We have a saying in a group I belong to, which is “Expectation is poison.” And I’ve learned that is absolutely the truth. Wendy: Brilliant. That’s a brilliant saying. CBC: Try to live in the Now. Wendy: Yeah, because expectation is never really connected to what really happens or what’s really going on. CBC: Right. Hopes and desires. Wendy: Yeah, it’s what you may want to happen but what you may want to happen at times is nowhere near what could happen if you just let it be. CBC: Right. So… you did The Rebels. How many pages of that did you do? Wendy: The Rebels? I don’t know. Maybe twoand-a-half issues. It didn’t go anywhere. I was too young to have a fully developed story to tell with them. What’s nice about The Rebels, though, is that we eventually incorporated them into the ElfQuest universe. CBC: So these personalities that you were able to imagine were able to transfer over there? Wendy: Well, in ways, they were prototypes of characters that we developed for ElfQuest. See, in the 1990s, I went out to Los Angeles to establish myself as the passionate advocate for the movie adaptation of ElfQuest. It had been optioned by Ed Pressman, who was the producer of the first Conan movie and He-Man: Masters of the Universe. We thought Ed was a great fit because he was used to producing fantasy—so I went out there to work with him, do the storyboards, script, all of that, a tremendous, tremendous learning experience. Richard continued here in New York to publish, and developed what we called Futurequest. We worked with different artists and writers to create stories about the Wolfriders after ElfQuest, after Cutter—hundreds of years later, what might happen in the future. And the Rebels went into that part of the ElfQuest universe. More science fiction. CBC: So you did the Stormbringer project. You… Wendy: Yes, I turned the table over! CBC: You disrupted the table. Wendy: And then along came Red Sonja right after that. #23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

CBC: That was in the CAPA-alpha right? Wendy: And by then, I was obsessed with Stormbringer, and so, from a period of, say age 17, on into my early 20s, I was obsessed with doing this Stormbringer film and it really occupied all of my time except for occasional professional jobs I did for Galaxy or If or exhibits at convention art shows and that sort of thing. I was obsessed with conquering this elaborate interpretation of Stormbringer. It actually came between Richard and me the first year or two of our marriage. He felt—justifiably, I think, but I couldn’t see it at the time—that I was devoting way too much time to that and it wasn’t even going to pay off because I was doing it for love. I didn’t have the rights from Moorcock to exploit it. It was just going to be a labor of love. Richard said, “I’m tired of Elric sleeping in the same bed with us,” and I began to realize that he was right. One day, I was working and I just kind of freaked out and tore up an elaborate piece of artwork I was working on and tipped over my drawing table, just hefted it up and flipped it over, and went to bed and didn’t come out for hours. I knew it was over. I knew I had to make a choice between my marriage and this obsessive project and I chose to let go of the obsession. CBC: Was it a choice between fantasy and reality? Wendy: Yeah. I had to grow up. I had to let go of this thing that I had started in my childhood, at age 16, and I had to acknowledge that I had bitten off more than I could chew, that it was never going to come to anything. I had to acknowledge that in a way it was a failure. I didn’t like to acknowledge failure, but I knew that if I kept on with it, it would threaten potential happiness to come. CBC: How connected were you two? You obviously had all this time apart—physical distance between each other—and yet you had this emotional connection that you were able to get through the phone and letters and stuff like that. Was there an adjustment when you were actually able to get together? Wendy: Yes, there was a major adjustment, because we were both independent souls. As you will recall, I said that you can’t tell me no. You can’t tell me what to do. So, you can only imagine the amount of head-butting that went on in the first couple of years there, just getting used to marriage, and what it means, what a partnership means, trying to define ourselves, define it. It was very complicated, very intense. CBC: Did you guys fight a lot? Wendy: Yes. CBC: You guys still fight a lot? Wendy: No. We have become very good listeners over the years. I think our greatest accomplishment has been to learn how to listen. We disagree, we discuss. When we are plotting a story, we still have strong points of view. I think it should go this way, he thinks it should go that way. And usually, because we know how to listen now—we’ve developed that skill—we’ll find a third alternative that neither of us expected that’s better than either of

CBC: Ah! Wendy: And all of us working together as a team and enjoying that immensely. And then, toward the end of Red Sonja, came ElfQuest. CBC: Doing Stormbringer, you did a tremendous amount of drawing. Wendy: Yeah. CBC: Perhaps much more than you typically would, over the same time frame, prior to that. How many years did you work on it? Wendy: From age 16 to I would say age 22. CBC: [Chuckles] So you really developed your drawing skills, your chops! Did you go and seek out professional advice on what to do? Wendy: Sure. One memory in particular that I love is when Richard and I visited Hanna-Barbera. I wanted to learn how you make out an exposure sheet because I actually wanted to add dialogue to my film. Not much, but some. Mostly I was going to rely on music for the soundtrack but I wanted to add some words of dialogue. So we visited Hanna-Barbera and they were working on the Charlotte’s Web full-length feature at the time. They were so kind to us. We just walked up to the desk and I explained what I was looking for and someone came down from exactly where they do the exposure sheets and they invited us up and they showed us! They played the soundtrack for us, broken down into syllables and they showed us how you write out the syllables and time it, exactly how many frames each syllable takes to say. It was just fascinating. I’ve always loved animation—the process of it. CBC: Have you ever been able to get anything done yourself? Wendy: I’ve done short—very short—animations. During the period where ElfQuest was optioned by Warner Brothers from 2008–11, they told us to not produce anything new because, as they put it, “If we do make the movie, we are going to want the rights to any new ElfQuest material so, while you are under option, do not make anything new.” So ElfQuest was dormant for four years and during that period, I did an animated web-comic. I animated it in Flash. It was called Masque of the Red Death. It was based on the Edgar Allan Poe short story. I elaborated on the original and did a really fantastical interpretation of it. Every week I would digitally paint four pages of Masque as a graphic novel and then I would take those panels and turn them into animation. The animation was very simple but, you know, the word balloons would appear, the characters would appear to move, or walk or whatever. I had a tremendous time working with Flash. That was a wonderful experience! And in a way, that was exactly what I wanted to do! I told Richard that “I am having the experience with Masque that I always wanted to have with Stormbringer.” So, in a way, I actually did Stormbringer, only this was mine! It was my interpretation of Poe’s story. CBC: How long is it? Wendy: Well, as a graphic novel, it’s 400 pages. The web-comic was 10 chapters and each chapter had 10 episodes. It went on for four years, so it filled the time when ElfQuest was on hiatus. That’s also the period when Richard decided, “We can’t let ElfQuest be invisible for this long. Let’s put it all online so we can keep and build an audience,” and he started doing all COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

the scanning and uploading it to our website. So we filled that four years very neatly. CBC: There’s two ways of being a leader, right? I think you either lead with fear or you lead with the ability to nurture a sense of shared experience, that we’re all in this together. Wendy: I think that puts it very well. CBC: You’re in the latter. Do you feel that? Wendy: I think fear paralyzes you. CBC: I think most corporate America does the fear thing. Most jobs that have over a dozen co-workers, it’s the fear thing. But the only way to be truly productive is to have a shared experience. Wendy: Have a shared experience, ask when you need help, when you want another opinion because you’re not sure your own is the way to go. The more you ask, the less alone you feel. I think fear comes from loneliness, from a feeling that there’s no help to turn to. You feel isolated. CBC: Well, you’re going to be judged. Wendy: You’re afraid you’re going to be judged and nobody has your back. I think fear comes from all those sources. You need to create your life so you don’t have that feeling of nobody having your back. We’ve managed to arrive at a place in our lives where we have found some very special friends who have moved from being fans to being what we call “The Heart Circle.” They are supporters and assistants of ours who know ElfQuest backwards and forwards, who grew up reading ElfQuest and feel that it shaped their lives and so they want to be part of the creation now and to assist us in whatever we’re doing with it now. Talk about finding family! It’s been an incredible bliss. We never feel alone now. We know we have people we can turn to who totally get us and we can speak to almost in code because they know! [laughs] And that is a wonderful feeling. CBC: How did you deal with it when “other hands” starting coming into ElfQuest? Wendy: That was a challenge because it was about the same time that I left to go work with Ed Pressman. I actually was living out there for months and months in a hotel, just trying to develop the movie project. Ed had never worked in animation before but he wanted to do an animated film aimed more at children. Because his little boy Sammy—five-years-old—was an ElfQuest fan. This is why Ed acquired the property, because Sammy wanted an ElfQuest movie. The film was to be aimed at a younger audience than the comic but we thought, what the hell, let’s try this! So I went out there and set myself up in that hotel room, worked on storyboard, worked on script. But Ed had a lot of trouble making headway in animation quarters. He had never worked with animators or animation directors or companies before. We talked to all the important animation entities. We talked to Universal, we had an interview with Disney, we talked with Jeffery Katzenberg, you know. But ElfQuest was not an easy sell. I’m sure we could have sold it if we had said it was Lord of the Rings-lite or something like that, but ElfQuest is nowhere near Lord of the Rings. This page: WaRP Graphics magazine-sized publications from the ’80s, including Martin Greim’s Thunderbunny, Phil Foglio’s adaptation of Robert Lynn Asprin’s Myth Adventures, and Colleen Doran’s A Distant Soil. 65

This spread: WaRP Graphics publications from the 1980s and ’90s, some co-published with Apple Comics. Next page top is a portrait of the great Sonny Strait. 66

than cover price. There was going to be trouble. Wendy: And you couldn’t tell these people anything! Richard actually made a marvelous speech at one of these distributor meetings. Richard: I predicted trouble but because customers were all wanting a dozen copies or more each, the retailers were buying big numbers from the publishers and since this was the direct market, they were paying for the stock and it wasn’t returnable. And then, when Image couldn’t reliably deliver… You talked earlier about meeting your deadlines and the domino effect of not meeting your deadlines, so when Image didn’t deliver an issue on time, then retailers were left high and dry when they couldn’t feed their customers, and so a lot of retailers went out of business. This happened over months, a couple of years. But enough of them went out of business that the distributors were affected. That’s what happened to Capital. Wendy: And distributors went under owing WaRP thousands! Thousands! Richard: My own part in this little drama was, I had such faith in ElfQuest that I said, “No, we can keep publishing, and we will still sell the same numbers month after month after month. Well, you know, it doesn’t matter whether you’re in a state room or steerage on the Titanic, the boat’s goin’ down!” And our sales went down. I owed money to freelancers and writers and all of that. So, for a couple of years, I wondered whether or not we were going to be able to stay in business because the dollars going out were more than the dollars coming in. But I’m stubborn, like her. Wendy: Yeah! Richard: I took out a second mortgage on this house and used the equity to keep being able to pay everybody. And here we are. Wendy: It was also then that I jumped back in and managed to do a new series with the original characters called Dreamtime. I like to think that was helpful. CBC: So Wendy returning to the series gave it a bump? Wendy: Apparently. Richard, do you remember if Dreamtime was really helpful? Richard: It was. And that’s a blessing and a curse. [laughter] Because she’s the original artist, she’s always been the best artist, the most soulful artist, the most honest artist—which is not to say that any of the others were dishonest but… it’s her spark. To this day, we hear from fans who say, “I don’t wanna read this stuff that’s not drawn by Wendy,” to which we say, “You’re missing some good sh*t!” But they don’t want to hear that. Having her presence more in the mix… Wendy: It made ElfQuest more the drug they wanted. Richard: I’m even talking about the working conditions, the environment, and your participation. Wendy: Oh, yeah. Richard: This is the way it’s been. This is the way it should be. Wendy: Yeah, and then from then on I just found ways. While I was still out in Hollywood, we bought a house out there, but I just found ways to keep involved with our work even while I was dealing with our Hollywood connections. CBC: When did you get the house out in L.A.? Wendy: In 2002. CBC: Okay, so you did the first 20 issues and you took a break. When was #23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

It’s another animal entirely, so we couldn’t pitch it that way. I remember we pitched it to Jeffery Katzenberg like the story of Exodus, with a wandering tribe looking for its sacred place, looking for where it belongs. Of course, he was going to go on to make Prince of Egypt, so why would he do ElfQuest, you know? [chuckles] It just seems the timing wasn’t right, then. We were about four years with Ed and it just didn’t go anywhere. CBC: The option money—could that support you? Was it very good? Wendy: Oh, yeah! CBC: But other creators—writers and artists—working on the property. How did that affect you? When did that first happen? Was that when it first happened? Wendy: Yes it is, and where I was going with that was I wasn’t able to be too involved. We had set up some storylines, some treatments off of which stories could be bounced, stories could be played with. Stories would stay within the ballpark of ElfQuest canon but could also go off on wildly different goose chases. The Rebels, Jink … they used characters that were either descendants of our elves or elves that we had invented for those particular storylines. I simply couldn’t do the work I was doing for Pressman and be involved with the creation of these stories. Richard was left in charge of these stories. He did more writing and creating than he had ever done before. I took a kind of “live and let live” attitude. I decided that I didn’t want in any way to oversee any of it. So how well did those stories adhere to canon? Some did better than others. But it was a way of keeping the ElfQuest comics line going. In fact, while I was out there with Ed Pressman, Richard built WaRP Graphics into a legit comic company to the point that some months WaRP Graphics was the number four publisher! CBC: Wow. Wendy: It was Marvel, DC, Dark Horse, and WaRP. We were putting out 12 monthly titles by that time. It wasn’t my work. It was all working with other people. CBC: How long did that stay? Wendy: A few years. CBC: That’s a lot of overhead. Wendy: Then again, in the mid-’90s, there was the crash of the direct market, and we had to deal with the leanest times we had ever known. There was actually some fear as to whether we could keep the company going or not. Richard…? I’m talking about that period where you had to keep WaRP Graphics going by the skin of your teeth in the mid-90s, during the crash. Richard: What fun! CBC: Was it Capital collapsing? Richard: Well, Capital was one of the victims. My own take is that it started when the Image boys split off from Marvel—Todd McFarlane, especially. Their Marvel comics were selling a million or more copies, which was unheard of since the Golden Age. They decided to split off and form Image. Well, Image was a phenomenon of the age and when the speculators came in, they said, “Oh, my god! The first issue of these earlier books is going for $100. I’m gonna buy a thousand copies of Spawn #1. Well, you know, when you’ve got a million copies of Spawn #1, it’s never gonna be worth more

CBC: Graphic novels, basically? Wendy: Graphic novels, yes. CBC: And who is this person? Wendy: Sonny Strait is… You would know him if you follow anime and if you’re familiar with Dragonball Z. Sonny is the voices of many of the characters on Dragonball Z and he is also a writer and director for animation. I had been Sonny’s fan for years because I’ve always been an anime fan and I love Dragonball Z. Little did I know that Sonny had grown up on my work and was a major ElfQuest fan. He had dabbled in independent publishing himself. He had put out a comic called Mr. Average, which got some attention. But he had been focusing on his voice-work for animation and, of course, Dragonball Z had been a huge success and has been ever since. Then at San Diego Comic Con, in 2000, purely by chance, the Funimation booth and the WaRP Graphics booth were flush up against each other. Funimation had not counted on how much room they were going to need—they had brought in all their voice actors to do an autographing and the line was huge! So Funimation asked if they could borrow part of our table for the actors to sit at to do their signing. Richard was a little put out by this but I said, [whispers through gritted teeth] “It’s Dragonball Z! Yes! Let’s do this!” [Jon chuckles] and so Sonny Strait’s sitting in our booth [laughs] along with the other actors and he’s looking around because he’s hearing our fans mentioning my name. “‘Wendy Pini’? What do you mean ‘Wendy Pini’? Where is she?” Someone said, “She’s standing right behind you, dude.” He did the best double take! [laughs] So it all comes out that he grew up reading ElfQuest and took a lot of influence from my artwork for doing his own independent comic. Then I told him all about my love of Dragonball Z and that I followed his work every afternoon on TV. It was just a love-fest from the start. So Sonny did a sketch of Cutter, interacting with some of the Dragonball Z characters, and when I saw him do that drawing, on-model, without any reference, I said, “Do you want to come to work for us?” And he about fell through the floor. He said, “Only if I can be your apprentice. I want more than just to come to work for you. I want to be your apprentice.” CBC: Wow. Wendy: And I said, “You realize what that means, right? That’s a bond that lasts for life.” And he said, “I realize what I’m asking.” And so Sonny became my apprentice and we worked together for two years in my studio in Los Angeles. It was just an amazing experience and we produced some great work and he has been connected with us ever since. I’m working with him now on Stargazer’s Hunt, our new series. He colored all of Final Quest. I’m proud to say that I’m the one that introduced Sonny to Photoshop. He was very hesitant to start working digitally but he finally took to it and he is now a great digital colorist. He did his own series for Tokyopop, called We Shadows, for which he did the color covers, and then the interior work in black-&-white. We’ve just had a long history together since the early 2000s. Sonny’s kind of my natural successor. I’m doing the layouts for Stargazer’s Hunt—which is the story that directly follows Final Quest and deals with

the next and how long did that last? Wendy: Siege at Blue Mountain started in 1986 and it was an eight-issue series, so that took approximately two years. And then, after that was another surgery for me. Seems like I would do a series, then have to take care of health issues. So, after Siege at Blue Mountain came Kings of the Broken Wheel. Kings of the Broken Wheel took more than two years to finish up. CBC: Then we’re almost in Pressman territory? Is that what followed up after that? Wendy: Right. CBC: You had an expansion. Were you guys involved with Colleen Doran? Wasn’t she a part of that? Wendy: She was, but that’s not a topic that I talk about. CBC: Okay, but it was around that time? Wendy: Well, when I went in for my surgery after I had finished the original Quest, Richard partnered with somebody else to keep WaRP Graphics going. They decided that they wanted to bring in other creators. I would say it didn’t go well… but I don’t know what Richard wants to add to that. Richard: [Pause] There were two expansions, and I’ll be brief: the first one was when you finished the first, original Quest—1984. I realized I was a publisher without anything to publish. So I went looking for other people’s comics that had nothing to do with ElfQuest. We partnered with Bob Asprin, who did the Myth Adventures series, and there were five or six or seven different bunches of freelancers, each of whom had their own title. That lasted for about three years. That was, I would say, a qualified success in that it kept us going. Wendy: Right. Richard: But I learned a lesson, which was that anyone else doing comics has their own issues, their own demons, their own egos, their own wants, their own expectations and in some cases, the people that we worked with felt that their expectations were not being met and we ultimately… Wendy: They expected him to make their individual series as successful as ElfQuest was. Richard: The publisher can only do so much, the marketer can do so much, but the material is what it is. Wendy: The material was what it was. Richard: That was the first expansion, in the latter part of the ’80s. The second expansion was what you were talking about—when we expanded the ElfQuest universe. Wendy: Into FutureQuest. Richard: Into Hidden Years, Shards, New Blood, Rebels, and Jink. All those. CBC: Mid-’90s? Is that the time for those? Richard: That was the early ’90s and went into the early 2000s. Wendy: And then Sonny Strait became my apprentice and we did two rather long one-shot stories, each of them about 40-50 pages long.

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some of the consequences of Final Quest—and Sonny is doing the finishes and DC that never got credit for it and the companies knew they couldn’t do that anymore so the Epic line was one way of acknowledging independent of my layouts as well as the colors. I’m not as interested in doing comic art as I was. I want to explore what else there is in terms of self-expression, so creators. CBC: So they called you guys… I’m so grateful. Richard: This will be explained when Jon and I talk but there’s a wonderCBC: So did you move to the computer? Wendy: Yeah, about the same time that I met Sonny, Richard equipped my ful bit of irony in their calling us. I will say no more. CBC: Okay. So, you had the first 20 colored and you did the bridging Mac with Photoshop and introduced me to it. He had been using Photoartwork and all that so that was a nice way to still be in… shop as a publisher. It’s useful for so many different things but I had Wendy: More than nice because it got us a whole new readavoided going digital. I was still doing things the old-fashioned ership! Not only was ElfQuest not lying fallow, the deal got us way. To tell the truth, I think it’s pretty hard to work regularly into grocery stores and airports and… in the comics industry today if you’re not digital-savvy. We CBC: I didn’t know that! both agreed back then it was important for me to learn. I just Wendy: Newsstand distribution! Like a regular good old seemed to take to it right away. Besides, it’s how animacomic book! Classic comic book-size. I had to reformat tors work. They all work on Wacom tablets, instead of the the artwork to fit. The pages had to be stretched. They old-fashioned animation discs, the light-boards that you turn. had been formatted for magazine size and they had to be So I’ve been really a digital painter and artist since the early stretched to fit regular old comic book size. 2000s. CBC: They committed for the 20 issues. CBC: Was it hard to transition? Wendy: Yes, they wanted to reprint the Classic Wendy: No. I’m not good in terms of technical stuff. If Quest. you wanted me to explain how I do what I do, I would CBC: So when #20 was coming, was there any say, “Well you adjust this frammistat and you turn overture to… this doohickey.” I don’t know the words for Wendy: No. I don’t think so. It was everything, but I just seem to have an doing very well, but it didn’t seem instinctual bond with Photoshop. they wanted to continue with it. There are certain filters that CBC: Did you get royalties? I like to use and certain Wendy: Richard, did we get brushes. I like to keep it very royalties? simple. I never use the modRichard: I wouldn’t have ern filters that create certain signed the damn contract special effects for super-heif we didn’t. [laughter] Oh, ro comics like lens flares yeah. and certain lighting effects. CBC: Was it over a threshold Because you can actually… You of number of issues sold? It was know, readers are so savvy now, direct marketing. they’ll read a comic and go, “Oh, they Richard: I don’t recall if there was used that filter for that effect there.” I an advance against royalties per page don’t want them to know how I do it. or if it was just a royalty situation. The conCBC: You don’t want them getting out of the tract is in the vault somewhere. But we certainly story. made some nice change. Wendy: Exactly! I don’t want them lifted out of Wendy: Yeah. the story and getting involved with technical stuff Richard: They were printing a book monthly and like that so I don’t even use a sixth of what Phowe were doing a book every four months. So they toshop can do. I just keep it very simple and paint sucked up the whole 20 issues inside of two years more like I’m actually painting with a brush. That’s and [to Wendy] you were still recovering from how I did your cover! [laughs] surgery so there was no more ElfQuest for them to CBC: Oh, yeah? Thank you very much. consider licensing. Wendy: You’re welcome! Old school ElfQuest. Wendy: That’s right! We really hadn’t crafted CBC: That’s great. When you did the 20 issues, was Siege yet. That’s all we had to offer. that ’85 or ’86? Richard: It was a one-time, one-use license. Wendy: I finished the end of the Classic Quest in ’84 They wanted what had been the phenomenon. and then I went and had my surgeries and my recovery They wanted a piece of that pie and we were period. Marvel licensed ElfQuest I believe in… Richard, happy to sell it to them. was it ’85? It was only a year later. CBC: Did you deal directly with Jim Shooter? Richard: The first Epic reprint issue came out, I think, in Wendy: Well, Jim was always a presence. He August of ’85 so they did that deal, yes, beginning of ’85. knew who we were. We were always welcome Wendy: And they required new material, so even though to visit the bullpen. In fact, one day I rememI was still recovering, I provided covers and then I was also ber visiting and they were desperate because providing some bridging art. they had a Doctor Strange issue that was CBC: Did you guys deal with Archie Goodwin at all? past deadline. I was in Marie Severin’s Wendy: Sure did. office when Jim poked his head in and said, CBC: What was it like? [deep voice] “Hey! You’re an artist, aren’t Wendy: Archie was everything you ever heard about him. you?” “Yeah.” “Here!” And he handed me If you never met him in person, everybody has a story about a Gene Colan page and said, “Ink this.” So Archie. Everybody has something good to say about Archie. I’m sitting in Marie Severin’s office inking CBC: He was aware of ElfQuest? this Gene Colan page while I’m visiting. Wendy: Yeah, Mary Jo Duffy made him aware of ElfQuest and [laughter] its potential. They were starting up their Epic line of comics, CBC: I couldn’t think of anything more which were creator-owned properties. Both Marvel and DC intimidating than being given a Gene at the time were made uncomfortably aware that indepenAbove: Recent photo of Colan page because… My god! How dent comics were no joke; that they were pulling in really a particularly vivacious do you do it! respectable numbers. Not just ElfQuest but others as well. Wendy taken by her Wendy: His pencils were They knew that they had to get on-board and start respecting husband beautiful! creators’ rights. People had created super-heroes for Marvel

Cover art for

CBC: Just print the pencils! Wendy: He gave me a romantic page with Doc Strange and… what was his girlfriend’s name? CBC: Clea. Wendy: Clea! Richard: And, y’know, if for example Wally Wood inked a Jack Kirby page, you knew it was Wally Wood inks, even though it was Jack Kirby art underneath. We have that page from Doctor Strange. I made sure to get it. And while it’s absolutely Colan art, if I looked at it without knowing who did it, I could say, “I know who inked that.” It’s very subtle but… CBC: It’s in the eyes, is it? Wendy: No, but Clea was extra pretty. Extra pretty. [laughs] CBC: Were mainstream comics—DC or Marvel—trying to get you for a mini-series? Wendy: Well, it was wonderful working with DC, too, because I got to re-color the Classic Quest exactly the way I wanted to. CBC: So you were a little disappointed with the Marvel coloring? Wendy: I hated the first [Donning] color version. It looked like a gumball machine. I mean, the colors were awful. A lot of people love them and swear by them and say that it’s the only version they love and they haven’t liked any of the digital coloring since. Richard: Are you mixing the Donning with the Marvel? Wendy: I’m referring to the Donning. I hated it. Richard: But didn’t he ask about the Marvel? Wendy: Oh! That I loved! I loved seeing ElfQuest colored like a traditional comic. I thought it was very cool. But I was talking about the Donning/Starblaze edition. I hated that. Then, for our 10th anniversary we worked with a outfit called Chelsea Animation Group, in New York. We actually had ElfQuest recolored to look almost like animation cels. We tried an experiment and had the ink line art put onto acetate and Chelsea painted underneath like you would color a traditional animation cel, which is why the colors are kind of flat and sharp in our 10th anniversary version. I liked that. It still wasn’t ideal for what I ultimately wanted it to look like, though, so when DC brought us on… DC also wanted to capitalize on the manga phenomenon then. Borders, Barnes and Noble—these big chain bookstores—were carrying manga and manga were selling very well to a large female market. DC wanted to capitalize on that and they thought ElfQuest would fit in so I reformatted the artwork. CBC: That must be really marvelous to be able to repackage your early material and get so much mileage out of it… Dave Sim probably comes close in a certain way regarding repackaging but I bet you have a much wider audience than Cerebus. Wendy: Well, the lucky thing was, I was digital-savvy so I could scan the line art into Photoshop and break the images up and reshape them any way I wanted and it worked very well. That’s how we pitched it to DC, the idea of a manga ElfQuest. I did a sample booklet of maybe 20 pages of how it would look. We pitched it around the conference table and just about everybody from DC was there and I handed the booklet around and they went, “Jeez! This just jumps off the page!” CBC: It was your idea to capitalize on the manga market? Wendy: Yeah. Well, they let us know they wanted some idea of, “How do we break into the manga market?” And since ElfQuest was America’s first manga… I mean, really, ElfQuest was America’s first manga. Homegrown. So they asked us, “How do we break into the manga market?” And I said, let’s turn ElfQuest into a manga. So I made the mock-up and they said, “Oh!” You show ’em and that’s all they need to see, y’know? That’s how we went forward with the manga. CBC: How many volumes? Wendy: About 19. [to Richard] Wasn’t it about 19? Richard: Fourteen plus two. Wendy: Oh, 16. Okay. And the thing we learned about the market of manga was, the audience will stick with a series up to about 15 volumes. We were in the ballpark there so it worked out just right. In addition to that… I don’t know how I accomplished all of it because I also recolored the Classic Quest digitally, even as I was producing the manga. I don’t know how all that got done. CBC: You’re driven. Did you ever go to Japan? Wendy: Yeah. Back in ’94, the Tezuka Company—and this was another miracle because you know how I feel about Tezuka—wanted to have a symposium of American comic artists and Japanese comic artists so they brought a bunch of us over. They brought me to represent a female artist and an independent comic artist. They brought over Will Eisner. [laughs] I don’t need to explain why they brought him over. He was the equivalent COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

of Tezuka. He was the comic book god of America. And then they brought over… I’m sorry. Richard? Richard: Brian Stelfreeze, an artist for DC Comics, representing the mainstream. Wendy: And more than that, representing a black artist. That was really important to them at the time because Japan was, in the ’90s, looking into becoming a little more worldly and a little more diversified. They are a very homogeneous society and they wanted to open their arms to someone who worked in the industry who was a person of color. So they brought us over, treated us like royalty. I simply could not believe, this is Tezuka’s company. They’re taking us to the Tezuka Museum, we’re learning everything we could ever possibly know about him, we’re talking to people who knew him. Oh! It was fabulous! It lasted about five days. It started in Tokyo and then they took us down to Kyoto to see theater and artifacts and culture and… We were just treated to a whirlwind tour of Japan. In the end, though we discovered that their motive was to wine us and dine us and then ask us if we—all of us artists—wanted to produce comics that they could publish in Japan and then turn around and sell it back to America. Isn’t that freaky? We all got to talking together, like, “In other words, they want us to do work for them so they can sell it in America, and compete against our own properties.” So, the Japanese… [laughs] CBC: It wasn’t entirely altruistic! Wendy: They’ll treat you beautifully, but they had… CBC: You all said no? Wendy: We all said no. We were all stunned to find out that this was their motive. It was a crazy idea. There was a huge market for their own stuff in America but the Japanese were not interested in marketing American material in Japan. I had a very frank conversation with one of the Tezuka people and said, since ElfQuest is so manga-influenced, we would love it if ElfQuest could be reprinted in Japan. They were aghast that I suggested that. I’d really said something I shouldn’t because they just don’t do that. They want their own product, produced in Japan, but they don’t want to bring in anything from overseas! But they wouldn’t mind publishing something and selling it to Americans. All in all it was a really fabulous experience, interesting on so many levels. This page: Cover art for ElfQuest: The Final Quest #24 [Feb. 2018], with art by Wendy Pini and colors by Sonny Strait. This was the grand finale of the heroes’ journey. 69

experience. We learned that the audience needed to like the characters better. They were with the story but they wanted to like the characters. What’s a bit radical about Masque is that the romantic leads of the story are two guys. [laughs] So it’s a bit controversial. Unfortunately. It shouldn’t be but it still is. So, we’ve continued to develop it. We’re getting ready to do our next reading. We think we’ve got it. The music is fabulous! You asked me what my dream project is. More than anything else, I would like to actually produce a concept album of the musical with Gregory’s music and full orchestration. I just want the world to hear the music. It is wonderful to hear my words sung by Broadway level actors, but it’s the music I want the world to hear. CBC: Did the mainstream guys, or Dark Horse or any of them, have they CBC: Wow. How long have you been working on it? tried to get you to work on other properties purely for your art? Wendy: About ten years, but apparently that’s normal. I’ve been doing my Wendy: I’ve been invited many times—particularly by Marvel and DC—to homework and apparently all musicals take forever to get off the ground, do little things for them. Of course, I wrote that issue of Red Sonja. Then but then they… Rocky Horror Show didn’t really get off the ground ’til it beDC invited me to do a little Superman story for them. I did a Triton story for came a movie. For Jekyll and Hyde, it was the concept album that launched Marvel, a one-shot. And I illustrated the origin of Race Bannon for Comico. it. So I want to get a concept album for Masque done at least. [laughs] CBC: Wow. So, you guys together, it’s been steady. Has it been rough? I CBC: Wow! Your childhood crush! think I read something about you had four personas. Wendy: [Laughs] My childhood crush! So yes, companies have invited Wendy: Oh, you’re talking about us together as a team? me to do little things and I’ve done them when I can. But the workload has CBC: Yeah. always been super-intense. One of the things that I’ve regretted over the Wendy: Oh, yeah. Well we’ve often said that with us, there’s the publisher years is that it kept me so glued to the drawing table I didn’t have much and artist, and then there’s the husband and the wife—and if the publisher time to associate with my peers. I would like to have had more opportunity and artist aren’t getting along, then we sort of shift personas and say, “I to get to know them. That’s actually happening now and I’m thrilled with it! hate my publisher, I need to talk to my husband right now,” or, “I’m sick and Becoming closer friends with, like, Bill Sienkiewicz, Joe Phillips… There’s tired of my artist… ” a whole list of people that have been around forever, since I started, but CBC: You literally do that? we just never had a chance to get to know each other because I was Wendy: We have, occasionally, role-played like that. always out of the picture, busy meeting deadlines. I hate deadlines. Screw CBC: How did you come to that? That’s pretty sophisticated in a way. deadlines. [laughs] Wendy: Well, how else are you gonna do it? If he and I, especially back CBC: Do you have something inside you that you want to get out on a in the older days when there were personality conflicts and all kinds of personal, autobiographical level? different tensions between us on all sorts of levels, how else could we have Wendy: No, not autobiographical. I’m not interested in me, but ElfQuest solved it? He was my publisher, he was my editor, and he might be acting is autobiographical. The story of Cutter. I told a lot about myself. I don’t see like a jerk, or telling me I had to do something that I didn’t want to do, or the need to tell any more about myself other than Cutter’s hero’s journey. couldn’t get done by when he wanted it. Or if I was acting like a jerk as the CBC: Is there anything else that you’ve thought of developing at all? artist and writer, if I was holding out because I wanted the story to go a Wendy: Well, there’s Masque of the Red Death. I did the web-comic certain way and he felt that was wrong and I wasn’t listening to him, how from ’08 to ’11, but while I was working on it, I said, “This freakin’ thing else were we going to get around that except to role-play and back off the is a musical!” My second love is musical theater! I’m mad for musical roles of publisher and artist and become friends. See, the one thing that has theater, especially the dark stuff like Sweeney Todd, Phantom of the Opera, always worked is the friendship. and Jekyll and Hyde. It so happened that, at one of Len Wein’s summer CBC: I wonder if you guys being so far apart at the very beginning but after-con parties, I met Steve Cuden, who is the book writer and lyricist of really being inside each other’s heads… Jekyll and Hyde. Len introduced me to him. And I was a “Jeckie,” a huge Wendy: Yeah, we became friends! fan of this musical! So, I’m, like, “Ooo! ahh!” Steve and I became friends CBC: Inside each other’s heads, you’re being intimate with each other— and, as I was working on Masque of the Red Death, I said to Steve, “This look at your age at the time!—without the sexual gratification. You had is a musical!” And he became my mentor on how to write the libretto for to put that on a shelf for a time—to a degree, the physical intimacy part a musical. I based the libretto on the script for the graphic novel and I just anyway. kept paring it down, paring it down. After the first couple of drafts for the Wendy: Delayed gratification. [laughs] libretto were written, I happened, through a series of great coincidences, to CBC: There was a lot of “on-the-phone.” [Wendy chuckles] But that’s meet a wonderful young composer named Gregory Nabours, who grew up interesting! The longevity! Is that true? Was it the night of Watergate? June reading ElfQuest, so he knew me. He’s gay and he’s fabulous. He’s into dark 17, 1972? When you got married? That’s a couple of years ago, y’know. Just stuff so I said, “You like Edgar Allan Poe?” Hah! So Gregory and I have been sayin’. working together on this for years! We’ve done a couple of readings… and Wendy: We’ve been together for 50 years! again, thanks to Richard! Richard produced the first staged reading of the CBC: Wow! You look awesome! What were you, 10? musical in North Hollywood a few years back and it was a huge learning Richard: The postmark on the letter that I sent her is Jan. 27th or 29th, 1969. This page: “True Peace” by Wendy Pini.

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

So we’ve known each other longer than 50 years! And I know where that letter is. Wendy: I know you know where that letter is. [laughs] CBC: You need to turn it over to Karen Green. It’s all history. [laughs] Richard: I’m sure she wants all of our correspondence. Wendy: We are both approaching 70. CBC: You guys look great. Wendy: Thank you. CBC: So… You guys are still in love? Wendy: No! Can’t stand him! [chuckles] I mean, the answer is that we have decided that the bi-coastal living isn’t working for us anymore and that we are in the process of buying a new house where we’ll live together. CBC: You’re going to sell both houses? Richard: Eventually. Wendy: We’ll keep the house in California a while, but this one, yeah. The new house has to have enough room for both of us because we both need a tremendous amount of personal space. It’s just the way we are and yet, at the same time, this will be our forever house and we just want to be in it and take care of each other and just be each other’s friend for the rest of the time we’ve got. Richard: Also, I’ve got to jump in here. I wouldn’t have phrased it as the bi-coastal isn’t working. I would say it was a phase, it served a purpose, and it has come to its natural conclusion. Wendy: Well, interestingly enough, it turns out I went out there to be a passionate advocate for the movie, but what it turns out that I was really supposed to be out there for—this was God’s plan— was to finish ElfQuest. I finished Final Quest out there, with us working very closely together. Thank God for Skype! But that was apparently what I went out there to do. Richard: Sometimes, distance can give you a much better perspective… Wendy: Yes. Richard: And dealing with each other, sort of as we first did, across the continent, gives you an appreciation. Wendy: Yes. Richard: You have to listen better because you’re not there 24/7. Wendy: And you have to treasure the time you’ve got together. He’d come out and visit for a couple of weeks each month and we had to decide, we’re not going to waste this time, y’know? CBC: That’s an amazingly mature way of looking at things. I’m getting the

juxtaposition of you talking on the phone when you were basically kids and doing the correspondence and then you doing the Skype. You’ve got this intimacy that transcends… You’re 3,000 miles apart, but you’re completely together. Wendy: Yeah. CBC: Which is profound that either one of you can be okay with that. All these different expectations, jealousies, all this baggage—garbage that can come without being confident and having faith within a relationship. Wendy: Oh, we’ve dealt with our share of baggage and garbage! CBC: Yeah? But you’re here. In the same room. Wendy: Yeah. There were many times when ElfQuest and nothing else kept us together. We’ve been through a lot. But the other thing that always kept us together was the friendship. When it got down to the lowest troughs in our life, neither one of us could imagine the other one being gone from our life. We just couldn’t, you know? That’s why we have this attitude of “there always has to be a way out of this.” You get down to the bottom and you think, “This is it, boy.” You have to realize what’s still the most important thing to you and you can’t picture that person not being in your life. Your life wouldn’t be your life without that person. CBC: You think it was meant to be? Wendy: I do. I think it was destiny. There were too many coincidences. There were too many ridiculous synchronicities that you couldn’t write. Nobody would believe it. I like that—prior to us meeting through the mail— he drove right past our house once. His parents… [to Richard] Was it your parents or your grandparents? Richard: Actually both. We were visiting my grandparents in Fresno and my father and grandfather and a random uncle and my brother—we were going to go to San Francisco for some reason, so we drove up the 101. This would have been in June of ’67, which was the Summer of Love… And 101 goes… Basically, you could spit out the passenger window and hit her house. Wendy: I’ve always wondered what I was doing that day. I like to think I was drawing something that eventually ended up in ElfQuest the day he drove past my house and I didn’t know it. So, yes, I do have a certain amount of belief in destiny.

This page: At top is the cover of Wendy Pini’s graphic novel interpretation of Edgar Allan Poe’s short story. Left, above, and right are pics of Wendy and Richard with a well-fed Ye Ed taken after dinner at Longobardi’s Restaurant, in Wappingers Falls, New York. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

WaRP Speed with

Above: Richard Pini, whose fascination with space travel is evident by the NASA memorabilia seen throughout their home, sent this shot and shared, “This 2016 photo of Wendy and I with astronaut Gene Cernan is probably the high point of my space geek life. Every year we go to Space-fest, in Tucson, Arizona, which is an awesome gathering of astronauts, authors, artists, and other people who are really into the space program. A few years ago, I got to spend time sitting at Gene Cernan’s booth, helping him out (as everyone sells their books and wares) and it was the thrill of a lifetime for me. Sadly it was also the last time I would see him as he passed away a few months later, on Jan. 16, 2017. He was the last Apollo astronaut to walk on the moon. These men and women are such heroes!” Next page: Recent photos of the bi-coastal couple at work in their respective studios. At left is Wendy standing at her Cintiq (“It’s healthier”) in her California environs and, on the right, is Richard manning the helm at the New York division of Warp! 72

[The following interview took place immediately after my Q-&-A with Wendy (during which husband Richard piped in now and again) and before dinner arrived at Longobardi’s Italian restaurant, near the Pini abode in Poughkeepsie. This is nowhere near the comprehensive interview I hope to someday conduct with Richard, an important participant in the nascent days of the independent comics movement, and thus more breezy and chatty with his wife and creative/ business partner Wendy actively participating in the back&-forth. But it is still quite informational and entertaining. From the start and to his credit, Richard had put any jealousy aside and he selflessly insisted that Wendy be singularly featured in CBC, so, in turn, I insisted he had to have his own space somewhere in the ish!—JBC.] Comic Book Creator: So, Richard, the birth of alternative comics: what’s your memory of that? Richard Pini: Y’know, part of me wants to say, we were the birth of alternative comics, but that’s not true. It’s just a reflection of my experience. As Wendy said, we got into this not knowing what the hell we were doing. ElfQuest had been turned down by Marvel, DC, Bud Plant, and Mike Friedrich, so, with the exception of that one little pothole of an experience with Fantasy Quarterly, we knew we were going to have to do it ourselves. Bud Plant was publishing First Kingdom and Mike Friedrich was publishing Star*Reach, and those two titles were the only ones that I was aware of that weren’t underground comix. I knew about the underground comix. I knew ZAP, Death Rattle, and all that stuff, but both First Kingdom and Star*Reach were different. They weren’t just T-&-A, weren’t salacious for the sake of being shocking. They were also magazine-size, which was different from most of the undergrounds. When we decided to publish ourselves, those were the two exemplars that I used when I would go around to printers and ask, “Can you print me

up stuff like this?” That is my memory of it. I’m sure there were other comics titles, other creators, but those are the two I was aware of in 1978, when I set out to become an alternative publisher. We didn’t have alternative or indie comics. The closest were called “ground-level,” a term, I think, Mike Friedrich coined because, he said, there was mainstream and then there was underground and in-between was ground-level. That’s my memory of the birth of the whole thing. We weren’t first. Actually, Cerebus came out a couple months earlier than we did, but I had no idea that Dave Sim was doing that and he had no idea we were developing ElfQuest. Those were parallel developments. CBC: When did First Kingdom come out? Richard: Oh, I remember 1973, ’74 as being the time frame. CBC: You guys were exposed to it? I’m talking about seeing the content and seeing fantastic material and knowing there was a market. Richard: We didn’t know from markets. Wendy Pini: We didn’t. Richard: All we wanted to do was tell the story and not go broke in the process. I didn’t know about advertising; I didn’t know about marketing. CBC: Well, there was nothing to the direct market, really. Richard: It was just starting! CBC: It was just Seagate and Bud Plant. Richard: And we knew both of them, particularly Phil [Seuling, of Seagate]. I had been going to his New York Comic Art Convention since about 1972, and both Phil and Bud knew of Wendy’s work and were favorably disposed toward it. So during a conversation, I said, “Do you guys want to carry our book?” And, based on those factors, they said yes and… Boom! Ten thousand copies of Fantasy Quarterly #1 sold, then 20,000 of #2, and 40,000 of #3. CBC: Those were the days! [chuckles] Richard: Oh, those were some days! CBC: So when did you first get into comics? Richard: My first memory of comics is, I was seven or eight years old. Maybe I’d had my tonsils out, maybe I had the flu, but an aunt brought over five or six DC comics. And there maybe was an Annual or you know, one of their 80-page specials in there. But it was all Superman and Batman. There were like three eight-page stories per regular title and that was my introduction to comic books. Now, my introduction to “comic books” [laughs] I used to…oh god, here it comes. I used to take accordion lessons, because my grandmother had played the accordion, so she made my mother play the accordion, so my mother made me play the accordion… CBC: A good Italian family. Richard: Good Italian tradition. And I used to take lessons at a place called Vi-Jon’s in Ansonia, Connecticut, and, while I was waiting my turn, I would go across the street to a convenience store and they had a spinner rack of comics. I picked up a copy of Fantastic Four #37. CBC: [Laughs] We are such nerds. Richard: And it was the second issue to feature the Frightful Four, who I think had been introduced the issue before. (I may be off by one or two.) Wendy: Isn’t this interesting that Frightful Four is how we both got started? Richard: I had read comics for years and they were always based on the DC model—three eight-page stories, little self-contained things. But I read this issue and it came

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Pini at the Helm

screeching to a halt at a cliffhanger. And I was literally, “WTF?!” before I knew what that expression was…and I didn’t say, “fudge.” I just said to myself, “I have to find out what happens next month!” [laughter] And it was the worst kind of heroin. I was addicted from the get-go. It was Kirby and Lee at their finest. And then, you know, the next issue had a cliffhanger and the next issue and then they brought in Dr. Doom and Daredevil, and then suddenly the Inhumans! All over the map! And then they followed that act…with Galactus! CBC: With God![laughs] Richard: The Great Refuge sinks and then out in space here comes this little squiggle that’s the Silver Surfer. Who knew where that was going? It was the best three-issue storyline ever done. And then what did they follow that with? Issue 50 they defeated Galactus. Number 51, “This Man, This Monster.” Best single-issue storytelling ever! By that time, I was doomed. I was buying every Marvel title off the spinner rack. It got to the point where the shop owner let me snip the wire open on the bundle and I could pick out the best copy… I was between 14 and 16 when all that was coming out… CBC: So, did you collect the Marvel line, hook, line, and sinker? Richard: I was a Marvel Zombie long before that term was invented. CBC: You were born in 1950? Richard: Yes, and that was the same year as Dunkin Donuts, credit cards, and the first movie shown on an airplane. CBC: That’s a rather random list, Richard. Richard: And I was faithful to Marvel. Every Tuesday—it was Tuesdays then —I was there, I got the best copy of all of the comics. I mean, 12¢ apiece, you could get eight for a dollar… and get change! And then they went to 20¢ and blah-blah-blah. But, by about 1972-73, I was still collecting, but it was feeling like an obligation. CBC: The letter that you wrote to Wendy—have you saved it? Richard: Oh, yeah. CBC: What’s it say? Richard: [To Wendy] You know better than I do. Wendy: Pretty much it said, “I really liked what you had to say in your letter to Silver Surfer, but if you’d like to know more about me, you have to write to me and I promise you surprises await.” Richard: So I knew something about marketing. [laughter] Wendy: Of all the letters that I received from guys that wanted to meet a girl who liked comics, his was the only one that did not tell me all the comics he liked, what color his hair was, how many pimples he had… He was a man of mystery and he intrigued me.

CBC: Did you write to anybody else? Richard: No. I was never a fan in fandom. I didn’t discover fandom until I knew her. CBC: You didn’t know fanzines or anything like that? Richard: No. I was in my own little world. I was reading the comics and I saw these names in the letters column. Wendy: You didn’t even know about conventions. Richard: I didn’t know about conventions. When I look back now and I see… Oh, yeah! Roy Thomas had a letter in Fantastic Four # 3, or maybe somebody else whose name you’d recognize now. All of these professionals had letters printed. I didn’t recognize any of those names. Her letter was different in tone than all the other letters. It was very philosophical, it was very compassionate, and it was… very Wendy! It was a girl. [chuckles] Wendy: As far as you knew. Richard: As far as I knew. This wasn’t the internet. So, I’m a guy, I’m 18 years old, I’m in my single room at MIT and there’s 8,000 men and 200 women. The ratio was horrible. CBC: Had you ever known a girl who liked comics? Richard: Before then? No. I mean, I didn’t ask around to see if any people I knew liked comics. Comics was a pastime I brought from home. I read ’em, I liked ’em, and then I went about my life, but I was very solitary. CBC: Do you still have them? Richard: I do have the letters, and for a time I did collect comics. In fact, I built up complete runs of Marvel comics twice, and then sold them. My parents didn’t care. If I had left them at home in an unlocked closet, they would have thrown them out, but I got a big padlock. And, when I got a letter back from Wendy, I didn’t know that such things even happened, like fandom or like correspondence between people with like interests. I was just throwing the bait out into the dark. CBC: Had you had a girlfriend before this? Richard: Sort of… One. CBC: [To Wendy] So what did you write him back? “Hey, I’m Wendy…?” Wendy: I honestly don’t remember what I wrote him back. I think I was working on a drawing when I got his letter so I finished the drawing and I sent it to him. I don’t remember what I said to you. It can’t have been very interesting. Richard: It was, you know, from a great remove, it was kind of like, “It was good to hear from you. Thank you. Here’s a drawing.” There wasn’t much to it. CBC: There wasn’t an invitation to respond?

Conducted by Jon B. Cooke • Transcribed by Steven Thompson COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Summer 2020 • #23

Above: Kendall Whitehouse, CBC’s intrepid convention photographer, took this shot of the Comic-Con International: San Diego 2019 “Comic-Con in the 1980s” panel, the contemporaries of Wendy and Richard Pini. Top row, from left: Rick Geary, Larry Geeck, Jackie Estrada, Maggie Thompson, Mark Stadler, and David Scroggy. Front row is Denis Kitchen, Wendy and Richard, Marv Wolfman, and Stan Sakai. Below and next page: The Pinis’ Will Eisner Comic Industry Hall of Fame Award, presented on July 20, 2019, at Comic-Con International: San Diego.

Richard: No, but the fact that it existed was invitation enough. Wendy: I wouldn’t be the type to say, “Please write me back.” I was getting all these letters. Richard: In fact, this leads to an amusing story. Being at MIT, ‘course we’re all horny nerds anyway, there was one pay phone in the dormitory and somebody had figured out a way to drill a little hole into the coin-box, so that if you made a long-distance call and had to put coins in the box, if you timed it right, with a straightened-out paper clip, you could hit a lever inside and the coins would come back to you instead of dropping into the coin box. And that’s how all of us lonely, horny nerds made phone calls long distance. Wendy: Well, it was the Institute of Technology! CBC: Clever. Richard: Yep. I got up the nerve once. Maybe on your letterhead there was a phone number, or somewhere on your correspondence. Wendy: Or you may have looked it up in the Gilroy, California, phone book. I don’t know. You had ways of finding out stuff. Richard: Well, it wasn’t like I had Google or reverseareacode.com. CBC: Libraries had phone directories from all over. Richard: Then again, I might have called the operator, just like the Jim Croce song. CBC: You knew the name and knew the street? Richard: I didn’t even know the street because it was a post office box, but it was a small town, so I took a chance. Wendy: There was no street where I lived. There were dirt roads. Richard: So I got Wendy’s phone number and, out of the blue, I called her. I said, “Hello. Is this Wendy?” and she said yes and I said, “Guess who this is.” And she proceeded to guess! “Tom?” “No.” “George?” “No. “Alan?” “Noooo…” And I could feel myself getting lower and lower and lower. Again, I had no idea that fandom existed and she was in touch with all of these other… mostly all guys. Probably all guys! Wendy: It was all guys. Richard: Who were making fanzines, who were asking her for artwork. CBC: Who knew she was a girl. Richard: Who knew? Wendy: Yes, I was getting hit on. There’s no question. Richard: So once we established who I was, we had a lovely conversation, the first of many, that led to some $700 phone bills. CBC: How soon did you share each other’s pictures?

Wendy: Oh, fairly quickly. You asked if I’d been in the newspapers. There was a picture of me with my father for something, a county planning commission thing, and I remember sending you that newspaper clipping. Richard: See, that’s not my memory of the first picture you sent me. Wendy: What’s your memory? Richard: You cut out from the newspaper the picture of you as Junior Miss. Wendy: Oh, that. Richard: Now I can look back on it and say you’re smiling but your eyes are not happy. CBC: But you got a picture of a beauty queen. Wendy: Well, Junior Miss wasn’t a beauty contest and I was no beauty back in high school. I was cute. Junior Miss was more about scholarship and talent than beauty… thank God. [laughs] But my parents, again, were not supportive. In this type of competition, it’s very helpful to have nice clothes and particularly a gown, you know, for the formal dress part of it, and you parade around in that. My father would not buy me a gown… so what I wore was a bridesmaid dress that I still had. So I was certainly the… shall we say most subtly or plainly dressed of the girls. They were all in these beautiful ball gowns. But my father wouldn’t pay for our wedding either. He did not believe in supporting anything he didn’t believe in. But… we got through it. CBC: When did you guys realize that you were a real team creatively, that being able to bounce off each other was beyond feelings? Wendy: For me, I think it was working together at the Science Museum. Richard: That was part of it. Wendy: I think Red Sonja. Richard: That was part of it. But, if we wanna talk about ElfQuest, I know that in the beginning…You know, the whole artist/publisher/wife/husband/friend thing? There were clashes. It may seem really weird to hear this but I have never felt more like part of a smoothly operating team than on Final Quest. Wendy: I know. I mean, we operated very smoothly on other things much earlier but maybe didn’t feel it as well as we did on Final Quest. Well, Final Quest was our biggest deal. The end of the elves’ journey. Richard: Which is not to say that we didn’t do stuff all through those years that wasn’t a ton of fun but just in terms of, if I sit back and think of it in more a Zen way, then Final Quest was hitting on all cylinders all the time. Wendy: Final Quest, I can say very confidently, is our finest hour. It is.

#23 • Summer 2020 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Richard: And we are carrying that forward with Stargazer’s Hunt. Wendy: I don’t know about Stargazer. I have a sneaking suspicion it’s going to be popular, but I’m flying blind a little bit with Stargazer because without him… Because, you see, Skywise is [points to Richard] his character and I don’t always have an instinctive knowledge of how Skywise would react or what he would say in any given situation. I get that from Richard. I depend on him for Stargazer’s Hunt. Richard: It’s sort of a completion because I feel… in a lot of ways I have been a facilitator throughout the rest of ElfQuest, but now I need to help provide some of the skeleton itself. I like it. CBC: [To Wendy, indicating Richard] What’s his best quality? Wendy: That’s one of the toughest questions I’ve ever been asked because there’s so much. CBC: Top five then. What are the top five? Wendy: In no particular order: his sense of humor, his ability to think in a linear, focused fashion—a scientific approach. CBC: Rational. Wendy: Rational. His deep desire for an expression of what’s fair, what’s right, what’s… you know, what’s the decent right thing to do here? Although it doesn’t appear to be so on the surface, he cares very, very deeply about a lot of things and a lot of people. He cares more than he lets on. And number five… he likes our dogs. He loves our dogs. [Richard chuckles] CBC: He’s a dog lover? Wendy: I don’t know if I did a very good job, but those were the top things that came to mind. CBC: [To Richard] Say, “Thank you, Wendy.” [laughs] Wendy: You’ll have to work harder than that. He doesn’t do that. CBC: Well, in his actions he does. Wendy: In his actions, yes. I’ve learned his code, for the most part. Richard: See, because of that self-same sense of humor, I would say “thank you” in the sense of, “I’ll let you have your return ticket.” Wendy: When we were getting ready to do a Skype interview last Friday, I know what it’s like for my face to look shiny on camera, so I do a few things so I’m not shiny. I was working on my face and he comes into the bedroom and goes, “All this fuss just for Skype.” “I’m kind of sorry you said that.” It would have been so much nicer to say, “You’re pretty,” or something like that, and he said, “I did.” [laughter] Gotcha! Richard: I cannot deny it.

CBC: Did that take 50 years? Wendy: He said, “I said it in deep, deep, deep code.” [laughs] Richard: [Nods at Jon, to Wendy] He didn’t ask me. “What are yours”? CBC: You want to share her top five attributes? Richard: [Indicates Wendy] These kind of people don’t come along… When I use the word, “unique”… I’m a wordsmith. I don’t throw that word around. But if you were to ask me, again, in no particular order… She has a 5,000watt smile [Wendy laughs] that she doesn’t do often, but when it happens, it lights up the city. And I can trace that smile back to photos that I have of her in her teens. She smiles prettily. She smiles impishly. But when it’s like Old Faithful, coming to the surface, how can anything be wrong in the world? That smile. That’s one of them. Another one is compassion that sometimes is totally unexpected. I know that intellectually she cares about a lot of things, too, but it’s easy to express compassion in troubled times because the words just are in the news. But it’s by example. And here’s the example I always remember: we were coming from somewhere and going to somewhere, and [to Wendy] you spotted a guy who was homeless, sitting on the curb. Without a word, there was not a word between us, she stopped and went a block over, whatever it was. There was a Chinese takeout place and she bought a dinner in a to-go thing and a bottle of water, and then brought it to the guy, never said a word, just set it down, and then joined me and we kept on walking. And I remember that to this day. It’s like, “Holy crap! Why isn’t even a fraction of the world like that?” No fanfare. No thought of payback. Just like breathing. Aaaand… patience. Not that it expresses itself all the time in every way… because I know she wants the impeachment to be over, now! [Wendy laughs] But her patience with me. She talked about learning to be good listeners and to me that’s probably the biggest lesson of my life. If somebody comes to me and asks me for advice, I will listen to them and I will give them my advice. If they come to me again, I know that they haven’t listened to me and I don’t have a lot of patience with them. But, over the years, she has listened to me sing the same song in a badly out of tune way a lot more times than three strikes would allow…and that’s a pretty good quality. [long pause] “Further deponent sayeth not.” [Wendy laughs] CBC: Thank you. Richard: Here endeth the lesson.

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Above: A pair of pix by Kendall Whitehouse capturing the proud moment when both Richard and Wendy Pini accept their Eisner Hall of Fame Awards. Below: The Pinis’ 2017 signed Comixology Comic Book All Stars trading card.