Comic Book Creator #29 by TwoMorrows Publishing

™

DON McGREGOR

Man of Wakanda, Man of Mars

No. 29, Winter 2023

Killraven, Black Panther TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

A TwoMorrows Publication

Cover art by Sandy Plunkett

82658 00490

W i n t e r 2 0 2 3 • T h e D o n a l d F. M c G r e g o r I s s u e • N u m b e r 2 9

T DON McGREGOR Portrait by KEN MEYER, JR.

Ye Ed’s Rant: The passing of a Comic Book Giant and presence of a Great Talent......... 2

COMICS CHATTER

Editor’s Note: Alas, it is with sincere regret that CBC has to announce that J.D. King, masterful cartoonist of the Woody illos that have graced the above space for every issue until now, is retiring the assignment. Many thanks, buddy, for a great ride!

Up Front: Herb Trimpe Abroad. Robert Menzies chronicles the Incredible Herb’s year-long visit to the British Isles in the mid-1970s, and his work there................... 3

About Our Cover

Zine Scene: Ye Ed’s new feature on zines of note, such as American Bystander......... 17

Cover art by SANDY PLUNKETT

Another Pinch of Herb: Thermonuclear Avocado. As an added bonus, a 1976 British interview with Happy Herb Trimpe, conducted by Roger Hutchinson........... 10 Ten Questions: Darrick Patrick gets 10 big answers from Devin Kalile Grayson.......... 12 The Man Called Gold: Part two of our three-part interview with Mike Gold covers his hiring by publisher Jenette Kahn and days of DC’s Explosion/Implosion........... 18 Comics in the Library: Rich Arndt on new books in the stacks!.................................. 27

Black Panther, Killraven TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Incoming: The return of our letter column begins with a missive from Steve Rude..... 28 The Bloody Red Baron: Mike Baron gives Greg Biga the scoop on his latest gigs..... 31 Once Upon a Long Ago: E.C. Fan-Addict Thompson on how he got hooked................ 36 Hembeck’s Dateline: Fred creates a Rogue’s Gallery of Flash’s baddest bad guys..... 37 THE MAIN EVENTS

Don’t STEAL our Digital Editions! C’mon citizen, DO THE RIGHT THING! A Mom & Pop publisher like us needs every sale just to survive! DON’T DOWNLOAD OR READ ILLEGAL COPIES ONLINE! Buy affordable, legal downloads only at

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COMIC BOOK CREATOR is a proud joint production of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows

“It Ain’t Betrayal If It Isn’t a Friend”: Don McGregor has something to say............. 65 Panther’s Pride: A Ye Ed moderated panel discussion with McGregor and Rich Buckler on launching “Panther’s Rage” and maintaining a life-long friendship.................... 66 Bonus! Tom Ziuko talks about his Nathaniel Dusk coloring on Gene Colan’s pencils.... 75 BACK MATTER Creators at the Con: Kendall Whitehouse clicks pics at Fan Expo Philadelphia ’22....... 78 Coming Attractions: Toronto’s own Michael Cho is coming next ish............................. 79 A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words: Tom Ziuko remembers ZOT!.........................80 Right: A detail of the Gil Kane (pencils) and Frank Giacoia (inks) cover on Jungle Action #10 [July 1974]. EDITOR’S CLARIFICATION: We regret the Shawn Kerrie feature proved to be a no-go for this issue.

Comic Book Artist Vol. 1 & 2 are available as digital downloads from twomorrows.com

Black Panther TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Above: Sandy Plunkett shared this wonderful piece celebrating two of Don McGregor’s muchadmired Marvel characters, the Black Panther and Killraven, Warrior of Mars, properties he just about made his own in the 1970s! Thank you, Sandy!

Donald Francis McGregor: Under the Gun The ground-breaking writer shares an afternoon at home with Ye Ed to discuss his brilliant achievements in comics, including the “Panther’s Rage” masterwork that inspired the 2018 Marvel movie and, as a graphic novel pioneer, with Sabre, the taboo-breaking dystopian science fiction series, and so much more! .............. 38

Comic Book Creator ™ is published quarterly (more or less) by TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Dr., Raleigh, NC 27614 USA. Phone: (919) 449-0344. Jon B. Cooke, editor. John Morrow, publisher. Comic Book Creator editorial offices: P.O. Box 601, West Kingston, RI 02892 USA. E-mail: jonbcooke@aol.com. Send subscription funds to TwoMorrows, NOT to the editorial offices. Four-issue subscriptions: $53 US, $78 International, $19 Digital. All characters are © their respective copyright owners. All material © their creators unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter ©2023 Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. Comic Book Creator is a TM of Jon B. Cooke/TwoMorrows. ISSN 2330-2437. Printed in China. FIRST PRINTING.

This issue is dedicated to the memories of GARRY LEACH, JUSTIN GREEN, NEAL ADAMS, GEORGE PÉREZ, TIM SALE, TOM PALMER, JEAN-JACQUES SEMPÉ, PAUL COKER, JR., ™

JON B. COOKE Editor & Designer

JOHN MORROW Publisher & Consulting Editor

MICHAEL AUSHENKER Associate Editor

SANDY PLUNKETT Cover Artist

RICHARD J. ARNDT TOM ZIUKO STEVEN THOMPSON Contributing Editors

STEVE THOMPSON Transcriber

J.D. KING CBC Cartoonist Emeritus

TOM ZIUKO CBC Colorist Supreme

RONN SUTTON CBC Illustrator

KEN MEYER, JR. CBC Color Portrait Artist

ROB SMENTEK CBC Proofreader

GREG PRESTON CBC Contributing Photographer

KENDALL WHITEHOUSE MICHAEL AUSHENKER FRED HEMBECK DARRICK PATRICK STEVEN THOMPSON TOM ZIUKO CBC Columnists To contact CBC, please email jonbcooke@aol.com or snail-mail Comic Book Creator c /o Jon B. Cooke, P.O. Box 601 West Kingston, RI 02892 2

The passing of a legend and appreciating a living master

I didn’t intend to go 28 issues In the comic book realm—and for me, perwithout cover-featuring a comic sonally—we’ve suffered some terrible book writer in this here magazine, losses as of late, some about which but I’m proud that the first to be I am still processing. The passing showcased is my friend Don Mcof Neal Adams is a particularly Gregor. It’s hard to relate just how devastating blow as the brilliant, important Don’s writing was to me vivacious creator made a greater as a teenager and, truth be told, impact on my life than did any I shared his Black Panther and other comic book artist. Killraven opuses with high school Neal always seemed, well, imfriends more often than any other mortal to me as a true Comic Book comics. I felt a deep connection God, someone whose work utterly to his writing, with its underlying mesmerized me as a youngster and, empathy and genuine humanity, and its over the years, it never lost its appeal to conveyance of tolerance and grace under me. When I first met him, he was drawing the guise of super-hero and science fiction thumbnails for a Batman werewolf story, comics. and the last time we spoke was maybe So it was no surprise to discover the the most memorable. Nothing really scribe himself was a warm and engaging important took place, but Neal was human being, someone I’ve long called friend uncharacteristically mellow. Totally (and, besides the wonderful Linda Fite, Don is chill. It was at Terrificon 2019, a the only comic book professional who has few months before Covid-19 hit, actually visited my home). We also connect and I approached Neal’s booth to on a mundane level as Rhode Island-grown chat and introduce my wife, Beth, creative types who are, shall we say, two to the artist and his lovely spouse, feisty, vertically challenged, talkative Marilyn. For a few minutes, it and verbose friends of Jim Warren! was just the four of us there and Thus, I’m glad to spend hours chatting Neal engaged Beth mostly, asking with Donald Francis McGregor, and about her job—for some unknown delighted to find a way to express my reason, he once thought my wife appreciation and deep affection for was a lawyer—and asked about her Don McGregor by Ronn Sutton my buddy. impression of the convention as a On the creative front, I just finished my book-of-thenon-fan. It was a tender moment and Neal was at his year, The Charlton Companion, which slowed my CBC kindest in my experience, and we’ll never forget that, output quite a bit, but I do hope you consider purchasBeth and I. ing the retrospective, as I look at it as a 272-page Don’t get me wrong: Neal’s acts of kindness are throwback to the themed issues of Comic Book Artist! the stuff of legend and, for me, his generosity has It’s pretty darned comprehensive and most definitely a been life-changing. Neal contributed cover art for my definitive look at the Derby, Connecticut-based comics first and third issues of Comic Book Artist Vol. 1; was publisher. I also guarantee the tome is far more interpenciler of CBA V2 #1’s cover; and artist of the Comic Book Creator #3 and #10 covers. He also kindly support- esting than you might suspect, with plenty of behindthe-scenes stories well beyond what can be learned ed my brother Andy and I by contributing the cover art from the Charlton issues of CBA. for our one-shot comic book, Prime8: Creation [2001]. I’ll be toiling on the TwoMorrows reservation for a And, of course, he consented to the many interviews I conducted with him, often at Continuity Studios. Plus he spell to working my design and production magic on a bunch of new books by my peers to keep revenue had daughter Kris hire me a few years in the latter ’10s flowing during my wife’s entering retirement, but then to work the booth at Rhode Island Comic-Con, which it’s back to a few new tomes. Future projects include were both fun and rewarding shows. I haven’t formulated how I will respond to his death Mind Candy for the Masses, my history of Last Gasp of San Francisco, originally planned as a 50-year celebrain the pages of CBC. Like I said, I’m still processing the tion but, well, Covid-19 got in the way. Then, with Jean passing. He was a strong, virile guy, a father-figure Depelley, I’m writing a history of the 1970s/80s adult to me and to many others, definitely a leader, helpful, illustrated fantasy magazines (Metal Hurlant, Heavy challenging, intimidating, and enormously giving. Metal, Epic, etc.). Thanks for stopping by! Godspeed.

cbc contributors Mike Baron Greg Biga Rich Buckler Andrew D. Cooke

Linda Fite Cliff Galbraith Mike Gold Devin Grayson

Bill Johnson Marvel Comics Don McGregor Robert Menzies

Ken Meyer, Jr. Dean Mullaney Sandy Plunkett Linda Reinhold

— Ye Crusading Editor jonbcooke@aol.com Steve Rude Cory Sedlmeier Ron Sutton Alexander Trimpe

Sarah Trimpe John Workman Rob Yeremian Tom Ziuko

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

CBC Convention Photographer

Immortal & Eternal

DIANE NOOMIN, DREW FORD, KIM JUNG GI, BILL WORKMAN, and my much-missed comrade in comics history, R.C. HARVEY

up front

Herb Trimpe Abroad Remembering the Incredible One’s year-long visit to the British Isles in the ’70s by ROBERT MENZIES

Captain Britain TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

[As hard as it is to believe, Herbert William Trimpe, Jr., has been gone for nearly eight years now, but in certain ways his spirit is alive and well, at least in these pages. Yours truly was pals with Herb—and still is with first wife Linda Fite—a friendship with both going back to the early days of Comic Book Artist. So we’re proud to share—albeit from a Brit’s point of view—a look at the late artist’s extended stay in the U.K. in the mid-1970s, with appreciation to two once Marvel-affiliated Lindas, Fite and Lessmann!— Ye Ed.] We probably know the exact moment when Herb Trimpe realized that he occupied a special place in the heart of British True Believers. He was attending his own one-man panel at London Super Comic Convention 2013 and, as the artist gazed out at the legions of fans before him, a clearly moved Herb commented—seemingly as much to himself as those in attendance—that it was the biggest crowd that had ever come to see him at a convention. What many fans there may not have known is that Herb was the only U.S.-born Marvel creator to live in Britain during the Silver Age. Even those aware of this fact had little idea about where and when he was living in England as his autobiographical comments were generally rather sketchy. The most precise description came in the essay “To Create an Icon,” Herb’s introduction to Captain Britain: The Birth of a Legend [2006]: “I have lived in England for extended periods of time, including one year in Cornwall in the 1970s.” Other interviews and contemporary statements in the British titles gave the impression that the Trimpes resided in England for only a couple of months, so this period in his career has always been something of a mystery. Luckily, thanks to the kind help of Herb’s son, Alexander, I was able to communicate with Linda Fite, Herb’s then-wife and mother of Alex and two of his sisters, Amelia and Sarah. Over and above her sense of playfulness and endless patience, Linda was a goldmine of information and, for the first time, we can fill in the blanks on this part of Herb’s life. “I can verify that, yes, we lived in Cornwall for a year— from March 1975–March 1976,” Fite said. The departure time, if not duration, is supported by a letters page comment in Super Spider-Man with the Super-Heroes #164 [Apr. 3, 1976], which stated, “Herb recently went back to New York after spending several months in Cornwall.” Fite continued, “We had visited Cornwall in the autumn of 1973, stayed for six weeks in Golant, near Fowey, because my old university chum, Shelley Turner, was living there with her boyfriend at the time… Anyway, we made some good pals in that community, so… when Alex was born [in 1974] and we outgrew our one-bedroom flat in New York City and couldn’t find a two-bedroom place in Manhattan that we liked/could afford, so we said, ‘Let’s try living in the country.’ Then I said, ‘Hell, why not try living in the country in another country?’ So, because we had the Cornish connection, that’s where we went. Those two times were when we were in the U.K. for the longest periods, six weeks and one year. “We visited England before those two times as tourists and after to attend a wedding and take Alex to unsuccessfully seek the Loch Ness monster.” (In a follow-up, Linda COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

added that this latter trip to Scotland happened in ’81 or ’82.) Fite added, “While we were living in [the village of] St. Mabyn for that year, we had visits from Barry WindsorSmith and his then-girlfriend, Linda Lessmann, and from Flo Steinberg and Chris Claremont (not all at the same time, of course!). “What is mind-blowing in retrospect is that Herb was penciling (and sometimes also inking) books in a cob cottage in Cornwall and using the Royal Post to mail the pages to Manhattan! Good thing the man had such an excellent work ethic.” Colorist Linda Lessmann Reinhold, now married to veteran DC and Marvel artist Bill Reinhold, met Herb in August 1972, when she began working at Marvel. Among the many jobs she completed was coloring Herb’s art on The Incredible Hulk #177–178 [July–Aug. 1974]. Before the Trimpes crossed the Atlantic, Lessmann had visited their mid-town Manhattan apartment—a mere three blocks from her flat—and she enthusiastically accepted their invitation to visit Cornwall in October 1975. Travelling with her then-partner Barry WindsorSmith, Linda stayed for ten days. She told Jon B. Cooke (in an email she kindly shares here) about “one of the most memorable trips of my life.” She continued, “The tiny town [of St. Maybn] was picturesque and charming, as was the stone cottage where they lived. It was situated next to a very old

Above: Herb Trimpe at his drawing table in the 1970s Marvel Comics bullpen.

Left: A detail of penciler Herb’s Captain Britain #1 [Oct. 13, 1976] back cover pin-up. Inks by Fred Kida. 3

thought to be the real, legendary Camelot of the tales of King Arthur. Perched on a cliff, the scene was quite dramatic, what with the wind blowing and the waves crashing. It was low tide, and we were able to see Merlin’s Cave at the bottom of the cliff!” The Cornwallian landscapes seeped into Herb’s art, with the barren expanses of Bodwin Moor, Exmoor and Dartmoor inspiring the fictional Darkmoor in the origin of Captain Britain. St. Mabyn, it should be noted, was a five-hour drive from London. I asked Alan Murray, Marvel’s London Art Director, in a February 2017 interview, if Herb ever visited the office. “The Roundhouse was the only time we saw him,” Murray said. “He didn’t make many trips into central London. He was way out in the West Country, so we didn’t actually see him in the Marvel office, only at the Roundhouse.” The Roundhouse Theatre, on London’s Chalk Farm Road, is a venue that echoes with the happy memories of the many illustrious names that have performed under in its domed ceiling: Jimi Hendrix, Elton John, and The Doors, being only a few examples. You can add to that list Stan “the Man” Lee and Herb on Oct. 20, 1975. In an era when comic book fans in Britain were offered only rare glimpses of American creators, the Roundhouse event has rightly gone down in the annals of British Marvel fandom as the highlight of that decade. When Stan called it a “special Marvel show” in his June 1976 “Stan’s Soapbox” column, he was, for perhaps the only time in his life, under-selling. According to Richard Burton’s Comic Media News #22 [Oct.–Nov. 1975], Stan had only arrived in Britain the previous day to spearhead a media offensive to promote the launch of the new weekly reprint title The Titans. Herb was not identified in the numerous announcements throughout that month and was only named as a “mystery guest star” in the last round of adverts. As Marvel’s British art director Alan Murray informed me, the event was hastily cobbled together and Herb’s participation was a last-minute idea, arranged after the comics had gone to press. While the modern, refurbished Roundhouse has padded seating with backrests, in 1975, it was a more spartan space with simple wooden planks mounted onto concrete steps, much like the old seating of British football stadiums. At the time, the Roundhouse interior more closely resembled a

Top: Radio host, journalist, activist, oral historian Studs Terkel in his “lived-in” office, circa 1970s. Above: The “other” Mike Gold—and fellow radical!— Jewish American, communist writer, and literary critic born Itzok Isaac Granich [1894–1967], who Terkel met back in the day.

church, alleged to be haunted, and literally across the street from an ancient cemetery on Bodwin Moor. There were tombstones so old that some were leaning over. On some, the inscriptions had worn away. I examined one gravestone that had a date in the 1100s. “I have told stories many times about the Halloween we spent in St. Mabyn: we had introduced the local children, who came to the door to ask for treats wearing homemade paper masks, to American-style jack-o’-lanterns that each of us had made, and which we placed in the windows facing the street. Linda and I made an enormous pumpkin pie with the leftover pumpkin shavings. Then, after dinner and many drinks, and leaving the men at home, she and I went to the cemetery at midnight in the pouring rain to see if we might encounter any spirits! “Herb took us all on trips to show us Bronze-Age hut circles and on to explore ancient castle ruins. We visited Restormel Castle, which was in excellent condition, and where one could easily imagine living. That was where we all hid in the bushes and pretended we were Robin Hood and his merry men. “And we visited the ruins of Tintagel Castle, long

Photo of Herb courtesy of Sarah Trimpe. Photo of Linda Lessmann courtesy of Linda Lessmann Reinhold.

Above: Happy Herb Trimpe fueling his beloved biplane, which he flew over his Hudson Valley, New York, home. Undated photo courtesy of Herb and Linda’s daughter Sarah. Inset right: Lovely Linda Lessmann, in the ’70s a colorist and production artist at Marvel (around the time this pic was taken), is today the mother of rock drummer Mike and graphic artist Leanna, and wife of their father, artist Bill Reinhold. Below: Restormel Castle, built in the 1100s, was visited by the Trimpes, Linda, and Barry Windsor-Smith.

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Captain Britain TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Linda Fite photos courtesy of Linda Fite. Guy Fawkes Night pic taken by Herb Trimpe.

Greek amphitheater in both shape and simplicity, although, obviously, with the welcome addition of a roof. Incidentally, Herb himself was responsible for keeping alive a myth that he and Stan appeared at the Royal Albert Hall, rather than the Roundhouse. This was repeated by Herb, as late as 2008, in Write Now! #18 [Spr. 2008]. While well-known in London as a music venue, the Roundhouse is a converted former railroad shed. In contrast, Albert Hall, built to honor the husband of Queen Victoria, is a stately, Italianate concert hall that hosts some of the largest events in the U.K. arts calendar. It’s an excusable mistake by a non-native who visited the concert hall once—especially given both venues are circular with domed roofs—but no doubt it’s an amusing and endearing one to a Cockney. At the event, after a welcome and introduction from Murray, Stan took to the stage in front of 900 fans, nearly all unaware that Herb and then-wife Linda were seated in the front row. After Stan’s on-stage Q&A with New Jersey-born Ted Polhemus, some audience

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

questions, and a rogue paper aeroplane soared over Stan’s head, Polhemus, introduced Herb to the crowd. There was a surprised pause before approving cheers reverberated around the venue as Herb walked on stage to join Lee and Polhemus. Prior to the show, Murray had given Herb a quick lesson in using the epidiascope that would project his sketches onto a large screen behind the stage. Despite this, there was a brief fumbling around with the technology and drawing implements before Herb started to sketch with what Stan called, with characteristic alliteration, his “titanically talented fingers.” (One fanzine reported that the chinagraph pencil used by Herb was to be auctioned at the next London comic mart, although no evidence was found of this.) There was a beautifully unplanned dimension to that first drawing of the Hulk. Herb had posed Greenskin striding forward with a closed fist similar to the one sported by Seymour-Man—more on him later—and Stan took the posture as incomplete, telling his friend, “Herb, what would you think the Hulk ought to be holding in his hand?” Calls came from the rowdy crowd and Herb drew a dainty flower. This caused a wave of cheering and laughter, and a delighted Stan quipped to the crowd, “You didn’t know the Hulk was just a flower child, huh?” This interactive episode seemed to be too much excitement for a few attendees who immediately invaded the stage and had to be encouraged to leave. With order restored, Herb then drew caricatures of past and present Marvel staffers Jack Kirby, John Buscema, John Romita (senior, of course), Steve Ditko, and Roy Thomas, with attendees shouting out informed guesses before each was completed. After this, Herb sat down next to Stan and there was a slide show of Marvel art. Herb’s time on stage was unfortunately all-too-brief, although the man himself seemed content to let The Man take over. One fan asked how long it took him to draw a comic. Trimpe answered, “It should, seriously, take about a week-and-a-half, but many times it takes me about three weeks, sometimes a bit longer. Shouldn’t be admitting this in front of the boss here.”

This page: Above are photos of Stan Lee and Herb Trimpe at the Oct. 20, 1975, Roundhouse event that appeared in the British Marvel comics weekly, The Avengers #121 [Jan. 10, 1976]. Inset center: Smilin’ Linda Fite in a late ’70s pic. Inset bottom left: Herb’s pencils and Frank Giacoia inks grace the cover of Captain Britain #3 [Oct. 27, 1976]. Below: A detail of the Bulletins page in The Titans #47 [Sept. 8, 1976], about a forthcoming new super-hero. Bottom: Linda shared, “It is a bunch of us on Guy Fawkes Night—I made the Guy. The little guy on the lower left is my now-48year-old son, Alexander!”

This page: Herb Trimpe pencils for the Captain Britain: Birth of a Legend [2007] trade paperback.

ITEM! You’ve heard of “Wrong-way Corrigan”, the famous America flyer who was trying to fly across America from East to West, but got his compass bearings mixed up and flew the Atlantic by mistake? We-e-ell the week of the Roundhouse showed that even the Mighty Bullpen has a Corrigan! While visiting London the Bullpenner in question was accustomed 6

(By the way, the celebrated story of Douglas Corrigan’s “accidental” transatlantic flight from New York to Ireland in 1938 is likely untrue. Corrigan, a skilled aviator and mechanic who helped construct Charles Lindbergh’s Spirit of St. Louis, had been refused permission to fly the journey nonstop and this improbable cover story was an attempt to get him off the hook with the aviation authorities. His plan worked: his pilot’s certificate was suspended for a nominal 14 days.) When I asked Alan Murray if he remembered anything about the compass episode, he smiled broadly, reflected for a second and, with a slight shake of his head, replied, “No. I wish I did! That’s a nice story. That’s the sort of thing Ray [Wergan, Marvel U.K. head honcho] or Neil [Tennant, editor] would have done.” This period of his British sojourn had a rejuvenating effect on Herb. After eight years of drawing the Green Goliath smashing his way across America, in an interview published in Super Spider-Man with the Super-Heroes #164 [April 3, 1976], Herb said that he “felt that his creativity was being stifled,” and that he was enjoying the new challenges of Iron Man, Planet of the Apes, and Super-Villain Team-Up. “The whole look of my work got better,” he said. “I’ve had to start thinking seriously about each panel. Work has become a challenge again.” Towards the end of the Roundhouse appearance, Polhemus made it known that Stan and Herb would be guests on the London Weekend Show and gave out two numbers for attendees to call. He continued, “Then, on Wednesday, you can turn on your television and see Stan on the TV magazine programme, Pebble Mill at One, at 1 o’clock, on television.” This was met by more than a few disgruntled calls. Comic Media News estimated that 60% of the audience was 12 and under, so most of the audience would be at school at that time. Although Polhemus had made no mention of Herb, he again joined Stan on weekday lunchtime BBC TV programme Pebble Mill at One. The studios were in the major English city of Birmingham, roughly 100 miles north of London. Although the studios were demolished in 2006, during its broadcast life from 1972 until 1986, and then again from 1991–96, the show enjoyed considerable popularity with stay-at-home mums, pensioners, students, and anyone looking for an undemanding distraction in the early afternoon. While the showbiz guests were generally minor British personalities, the show sometimes pulled a rabbit out of the hat by enticing Hollywood royalty like Ginger Rogers, Sophia Loren, and Liza Minnelli to appear. That few younger fans saw Stan and Herb’s appearance is probably confirmed by the fact that almost no one mentioned it in letter columns. One correspondent reported he was told about the interview by his dad after getting home at the end of the school day, while another pleaded with Marvel to arrange for the interview to be rebroadcast on Nationwide, a mid-evening show. One wonders how many of the 600 at the Roundhouse convincingly faked illness that day. Any that did, they did not share the experience in any letter columns. Unfortunately, the BBC wiped the master tapes after transmission, so very few Pebble Mill episodes have survived. Barring the improbable miracle of a forgotten home recording coming to light, a second viewing of Stan and Herb’s visit is likely to remain an unfulfilled dream. As the long decades slid by, British fans reluctantly accepted that nothing about the Pebble Mill appearance would ever be known. Then, expectedly, the passing of Stan in November 2018 led to the posting of a tribute piece in Britain’s online edition of The Guardian newspaper. Writing from Joan Lee’s hometown of Newcastle, Ben Seymour, son of David Seymour, one of the regular Pebble Mill presentation team between 1973–78, shared a startling anecdote as part of a collection entitled “‘He #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Captain Britain TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Stan then commented, “Haven’t you speeded up since you came over here? You know, Herb’s been living here for a while. I’m afraid he’s never going to come back home. He’s become completely Anglophiled!” Another question prompted Herb to clarify the rumor that Stan had asked artists to draw exactly like Jack Kirby. Trimpe shared, “We weren’t asked to copy his style. Nobody has ever been able to copy a specific style, but since Kirby was so successful with his action and so on, his storytelling especially, we looked at his work to see how he did it, because he had so much experience and so on.” Trimpe then elaborated on the challenges of working in the Marvel Bullpen, which had a much smaller staff when Herb began his employment with the production department. “When I got into the full-time area of the artwork alone,” he said, “it became very difficult to concentrate there because it’s a very high-powered kind of environment. And if you have to plot stories and things like that, it’s very difficult to do because there’s so many ideas and so many things flying back and forth in the air.” An excellent double-page report on the day was printed in The Mighty World of Marvel #171, The Avengers #121, The Super-Heroes #45, Planet of the Apes #64 and Dracula Lives! #64 [all cover dated January 10, 1976], although, ironically, not in The Titans, Stan’s stated reason for being in the country. Numerous British fanzines reported on the event, with the most extensive probably appearing in the debut issue of Frank Martini’s Comic Showcase [Feb.–Mar. 1976]. The week of the Roundhouse, Marvel put the Trimpes up in a hotel in the Bloomsbury part of the city, leading to a comical misadventure that was detailed in the Bulletin page for weeklies dated January 24, 1976.

to keep fit by leaving his Russell Square hotel and running for an hour in Regent’s Park which is a few blocks north. But one night the Bullpenner felt even stronger than usual and went further into the dimmest reaches of the Park, running for two hours before turning for home. He finally came to the park gates, but found the streets outside unfamiliar. He ran on, expecting at any minute to find Russell Square. Just as he was about to admit he was totally lost he came to an underground station—Swiss Cottage, which all Londoners know is NORTH of the Park, not south. He was [three] miles from where he thought he should be! A true Corrigan—and he came back on the train. It is pure coincidence that when the London Bullpen sent a thankyou present to Herb Trimpe for all the work he did in the Roundhouse week—the gift was a compass!

Marvel Annual, Hulk TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Pebble Mill at One © British Broadcasting Corporation.

saved my life’: readers’ memories of Stan Lee.” Ben Seymour explained, “I thought it would be nice to share my father’s memories of Stan Lee with you along with a photo of the A1-size [23.375" w x 33.125"] drawing of the super-hero Stan and Herb Trimpe created during a 1975 BBC Pebble Mill at One interview. “Personally, I am a lifelong Marvel fan, as are ‘Seymour-Man’s’ grandchildren, so the fact that their grandpa is not only their real-life super-hero, but also a Stan Lee-created Marvel one is priceless. The following is my dad, David Seymour’s, fond recollection of Stan’s visit to the Pebble Mill studios:” In 1975, I was a BBC reporter and television presenter working on a daily network magazine/ talk show on BBC1 called Pebble Mill, named after the broadcasting centre in Birmingham. I vividly remember interviewing Stan Lee during his visit to the UK, promoting Son of Origins [of Marvel Comics], which described the creation of several Marvel Comics super-heroes. Stan was a great guest both on and off the set. He was helpful, charming, talkative, and inventive. It was an extended interview and Stan decided to transform me into a new type of super-hero. I was young, British, black-haired and—Stan claimed—clearly suitable for transformation. It’s 43 years ago, and I forget what superpowers Stan endowed me with, but as we talked live on British TV, the Marvel artist Herb Trimpe sketched out the new creation: he was called Seymour-Man. “I have the sketch to this day, signed by its creators, Stan and Herb. It graces one of our guest bedrooms at home in Northumberland and has always intrigued our grandchildren. Sadly, I never developed the superpowers that Stan had described. But now, silver-haired, I’m still Seymour-Man! Apart from these media appearances, Herb had a long history of helping to make Marvel a success in Britain. While many up-and-coming artists like John Romita, Jr., Bob Layton, and Jeff Aclin cut their artistic teeth creating exclusive poster and bridging art (U.S. editions were divided into two or three installments) for the British reprint weeklies, Herb was one of the few established artists to contribute—and the only one to be directly asked by the London office. Herb’s first art was, appropriately, the not-so-jolly giant himself. The Mighty World of Marvel #57 [Nov. 3, 1973] sported a new Trimpe illo with Giacoia inks. The pair would collaborate again on MWOM #209, dated Sept. 29, 1976. Both are recreations of earlier images. The cover to MWOM #57 is a redrawn version of the interior splash page to The Incredible Hulk #108 [Oct. 1968], while the cover to #209 is essentially the cover to The Incredible Hulk #186 [April 1975] except that the viewer is closer to the action. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

In addition, there is a poster of a running Iron Man in Spider-Man Comics Weekly #138 [Oct. 1975], coincidentally the first Marvel comic I ever read and the first poster I cut out and stuck on my wall. It wasn’t the last comic of mine to fall victim to scissors, but thankfully I grew out of that destructive practice rather quickly. This issue, incidentally, is also noteworthy for an advertisement for the Roundhouse event and acts as an explanation for my lifelong fascination with it. Herb also created some covers for the British edition of Planet of the Apes #96 [Aug. 21. ’76] and #98 [Sept. 4, ’76] – both of which were penciled by Herb and inked by “British Department” mainstay Everett Eugene “Duffy” Vohland, an artist who died at the tragically young age of 30, in 1982. And, it almost goes without saying, Herb produced interior art for the first 23 issues of Captain Britain as well as contributing a pin-up to issue #1 (was that a rejected cover?) and penciling covers to issues #3, 5, and 8 (all inked by Giacoia), as well as 10 (inker unknown). There was more to come. The greatest poster era in British Marvel comics was during the all-too-brief days of the landscape comics, when massive centerspread posters were

Above: Clockwise from top left is TV presenter David Seymour; Herb’s “Seymour-Man” drawing; logo for early afternoon TV program, Pebble Mill at One; and aerial shot of the Birmingham BBC studios. Below: Herb drew the cover for this Annual.

Above: For some unfathomable reason (to Ye Ed, anyway), the Brit Marvel weeklies used a horizontal format for a period in the 1970s. While likely annoying for the layout crew re-purposing the reprint stats, it made for a great canvas for the artist on the centerspread! At top is Herb’s spectacular art for Super Spider-Man and the Titans #226 [June 8, 1977]. Inset right: Herb’s cover for The Mighty World of Marvel #57 [Nov. 3, ’73]. Next page: Super Spider-Man with the Super-Heroes #165 [Apr. 10, ’76] featured this awesome Trimpe centerspread, with the previous issue, #164 [Apr. 3, ’76], included a full-page mini-biography on the artist. Also seen is Neal Adams’s 2013 London Super Comic Convention program cover. Below: Herb’s pin-up in Spider-Man Comics Weekly #138 [Oct. ’75].

printed. Herb contributed two. One, almost inevitably, was of Greenskin. His Hulk centerspread poster appeared in Super Spider-Man and the Titans #226 [June 8, 1977]. This poster also appeared, with the added head, in FOOM #19 [Fall 1977]. The most memorable Herb centerspread, however, was not of any of his signature characters and has been forgotten, which is a great pity as it is his most personal contribution to the British weeklies. In Super Spider-Man with the Super-Heroes #164 [April 3, 1976] there was a highly unusual feature on Trimpe. In British comics up to that point, there had been numerous brief “ITEM!”s on creators, and Stan Lee was never far away, but this type of biographical material was almost unheard of. Of course, this was because Herb was in Britain and accessible in a way that other U.S. figures, even Stan with his regular trips across the pond, were not. Interestingly, Neil Tennant, who commissioned the new splash when he met Herb at the Roundhouse event, gave Herb free rein to pick his own subject matter. The remit was so open ended that he didn’t even have to use a Marvel character. The following quotations are taken from SSMWTSH #164, reprinted here for those whose eyesight might not discern the text on the opposite page reproduction:

character survives to this day. While Herb may have been dismissive of the character in later years, there’s no denying the historical significance of the good Captain, or of Herb’s place in that history. It is worth pausing here to clear up a common misunderstanding: Herb did not develop the character with writer Chris Claremont in the way that is often assumed. The character’s concept and costume were a group effort between the New York and London offices, with input from Stan Lee (contributing the name and costume ideas), British department editor Larry Lieber (costume design elements), editorial assistant Bob Budiansky (mask), and suggestions throughout from London editor Neil Tennant and his art team of Alan Murray and George Mina, to name six. The character’s costume was already well-developed if not finalized before Herb came on board. (See the various design sketches by Lieber in Captain Britain: The Lion and the Spider [2009].) Herb was the first artist on the comic book—and a very fine one, too—but it wasn’t his co-creation. You are on much firmer ground stating he co-created the supporting cast with Claremont. It’s also been frequently asserted by commentators, and

Hulk, Iron Man, The Mighty World of Marvel TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

We asked him to draw anything he liked, to let his imagination run wild. … [W]e thought he would refuse, but surprisingly he leapt at the opportunity. Herb Trimpe the artist wanted a chance to express himself outside the restrictions of drawing to a prearranged plot. [T]he spread is a futuristic battle scene, contrasting the glamour of a cavalry charge 150 years ago with the technological fury of futuristic air warfare. Herb’s choice of subject reflects his lifelong interest in military history, an interest he is rarely able to follow up in his work. “I just wanted to draw some men on horses,” said Herb, “and to show that although the weapons of war may change, the men don’t.” It’s a great article even if it is slightly regrettable that the Hulk image accompanying this feature is a Kirby-Sinnott effort (with possible retouching of Hulk’s face by Bill Everett). As promised, the “Into Battle” centerspread poster was printed in the next issue, SSMWTSH #165. It’s one of the most memorable pin-ups of the 1970s. Of course, most famously, Herb was the first artist on the first hero that Marvel created for the U.K. audience, Captain Britain. For all the recycling of Peter Parker/SpiderMan tropes, this was a ground-breaking character and his strip a lot more fun than is usually acknowledged. Never before had Marvel produced an original character and story material for the British readership. Although the comic itself failed after a disappointing run of only 39 issues, the

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

would be a calmer or more comforting presence in a time of sorrow and confusion. After his unexpected passing on April 13, 2015, many comments on message boards were Brits saying how glad they were that they finally got to meet Herb at LSCC 2013, that they were able to stand and clap till their hands were red. The sound of that huge applause filling the vast arena at the London ExCel was our inadequate way of saying “Herb Trimpe, We Love You.” [Special thanks: Linda Fite, Linda Lessmann, Rob Kirby, Alan Murray, Ted Polhemus, and Alexander Trimpe, who all provided invaluable assistance and background info. Thanks also to Jason Schachter, Andrew Standish, Gerry Turnbull, the Raasay post office, and the Stan Lee Archive for digitizing the Roundhouse video.]

“Into Battle” © the respective copyright holder. Hulk, Wolverine TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. “Into Battle…” art restoration by Andrew Standish.

even Claremont in his introduction to Captain Britain: The Birth of a Legend (2006), that Herb was given the Captain Britain gig because he was living in the U.K. That statement requires only very slight rephrasing to be completely accurate. The Trimpes had returned to the States by this point, but as Herb had spent a year here and traveled around the country, he was considered the most qualified to depict England’s green and pleasant lands. This choice, however, did not placate some demanding older fans who had hoped for an artist born and raised in the British Isles. But even the loudest grumblers didn’t complain that we got Herb. He remained a fan-favorite and one that many fans hoped would one day return. When he did, after many years away and for the final time, it was London Super Comic Con 2013. At his one-man panel, Herb said he’d received one of the warmest receptions he’d ever encountered at a con, words that were met with thunderous applause. I spoke to him and Patricia, his wife, a few times on that weekend. Both were incredibly generous with their time and clearly enjoyed the whole experience of meeting fans. Herb came across as a peaceful and contented man. At that point in time I wasn’t aware of his work as a pastor or his connection to 9/11, but with hindsight it makes complete sense. I am struggling to think of anyone else who

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

another pinch of herb

Thermonuclear Avocado

A bonus look at Happy Herb Trimpe during his extended ’70s visit to Great Britain Introduction by ROBERT MENZIES

Above: Cover of Time Out #293 [Oct. 24–30, 1975], art by Herb Trimpe, containing an article on the artist by Roger Hutchinson. Below: Detail of Marvelmania’s 1970 Hulk poster. Art by Herb. Bottom: Recent photo of Brit writer Roger Hutchinson.

Dear Robert, Well done–your letter found me! I’d forgotten about the piece, but remember the occasion. As you say, Trimpe didn’t visit London, so I drove to Cornwall in my Morris Minor with my friend Don. We went via Bath [approximately 115 miles due west from London] and it was two days there, two back. I’d never heard of Herb Trimpe. I wrote regular features for Time Out, and, one day, the founder/ publisher/editor, Tony Elliot [1947–2020], started gushing to me about this graphic genius who was secluded in the West Country for a year, how nobody could get close to him, so an interview would be a scoop. I collected expenses, filled the tank, and set off. I did research in advance, of course. I may have had knowledge of, or interest in, Marvel Comics, but I had friends, as well as Tony, who were besotted fans. One of them could have been Charles Shaar Murray [another journalist who interviewed Stan Lee on at least two occasions and was extremely knowledgeable about American comics], but I think I leaned mostly on Mickey Farren [an English journalist, author and singer who died in 2013]. I can remember little about the visit, so you’ll have to depend on the finished piece. I do remember Don and I arriving, being greeted by a friendly American couple, and getting down straight away to the interview. Then, a few hours later, we returned to London, I wrote it up and collected my ten pounds sterling. 10

Ha! That’s great! What struck me, aside from having no memory of the visit by the duo, is that we had a Morris 1000, too. We had first bought a Triumph Herald banger, which crapped out at some point thereafter, then we got the Morris Minor, which was also a rust bucket, but which we sold to some happy camper when we were about to go back to New York. We were friendly, that’s for sure. Hilarious that the boss of the journalist who now lives on a remote Scottish island thought that Herb was a “genius” in seclusion… and that he went to all that bother for ten quid! Presented below is Herb’s interview with Hutchinson. Many fans—and I include myself here, of course—tend to romanticize the comics biz and want to believe Stan’s myth of the batty Bullpen, but Herb, a voice of unrestrained honesty, razes that illusion to the ground, revealing himself as just another mortal paying the electric bill. Or does he protest too much? If he really did see himself as just a nine-to-fiver, analogizing drawing comics to house painting, why care about a stray word balloon…?

“Thermonuclear Avocado At The ICA” by Roger Hutchinson Reprinted from Time Out #293, Oct. 24–30, 1975

Not much more than a decade ago, the offices of the Marvel Comics Group contained just three full-time workers. Two of them were Stan Lee, a writer/editor who had been with the company since the war, and John Buscema, an artist who had moved into comics from advertising. Times, for these people, were not good. The American comic industry in the early sixties was almost dead on its feet. The introduction of the Comics Code, forbidding artists the luxury of depicting such items as blood, nipples, genitalic bulges, victory for the Baddies, and so on, had already succeeded in killing off the more lurid EC Comics, and the rest of the trade felt an austere wind blowing. Such times are legendarily the times for businessmen to play Russian roulette with their products: to gamble on the innovation that might make a million… or equally, might sink the company. Stan Lee made a million. Well, several thousand anyway. He adapted on a large scale the style of Will Eisner’s ‘Spirit’—he gave his superheroes hang-ups. They had problems that were almost commonplace, suffered from recognisable neuroses and were subject to fits of whimsy. With these re-characterisations went Lee’s snappy, slangy, cute dialogue (again, reminiscent of the great Eisner), dialogue that the kids could get on with. And with such dialogue went the art-work of Jack Kirby and Buscema; Kirby who, as Lee once reverently pointed out, had actually [co-] created Captain America, and now went on to put the same power and energy into the Fantastic Four. Kirby is the kind of artist that DC Comics, Marvel’s rivals, had to buy from #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Time Out TM &© the respective copyright holder. Hulk TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Photo of Roger Hutchinson from the Hachette.co.uk website..

During his lengthy stay in Britain, Herb Trimpe appears to have given only two solo interviews: one was an in-house feature for Spider-Man’s U.K. reprint title (seen on the previous page), while the other was for London’s entertainment listings magazine, Time Out. Regarding Time Out’s headline for that feature—”Thermonuclear Avocado at the ICA”—the peculiar description of the Incredible Hulk originates with Robin Green’s bullpen article, in the Sept. 16, 1971, edition of Rolling Stone, while the ICA acronym refers to the Institute of Contemporary Arts, a London arts venue then exhibiting original Marvel art, some of which was Herb’s, over the final two weeks of October in 1975. Prior to the Roundhouse show, Stan had attended a press gathering at the ICA with Marc Bolan of rock band T. Rex and Roy Wood of ELO and Wizzard fame. Two years after conducting this interview, Bolton-born journalist Roger Hutchinson relocated to the picturesque Scottish island of Skye, and then, after two decades, moved to the smaller, adjacent island of Raasay. The prodigious and award-winning Hutchinson has authored 15 non-fiction books, and his writing has appeared in numerous national and regional newspapers, including The Scotsman, The Herald, and The Guardian. Although I didn’t know Hutchinson’s address, a Google search informed me that, at the last census, Raasay had only 161 residents. Emboldened by improbable stories of Royal Mail delivering letters in far less favorable circumstances, I took a chance and sent off a letter with a “Please Help, Mr. Postman!” on the envelope. After three weeks, just as I was beginning to think that my optimism was misplaced, I received the following email.

I passed on Roger’s reply to Herb’s first wife, Linda Fite, and she was tickled at the back story.

Characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Photo © Luigi Novi/Wikimedia Commons.

Marvel. John Buscema, and this is qualification enough, drew Spiderman [sic] and the Silver Surfer. John Buscema is still one of the Marvel employees— one of more than 70 these days. Marvel have probably the largest and most diverse readership of any comic group in the world. [Legendary Italian film director Federico] Fellini dropped in once to thank them for giving him fresh ideas for camera angles (interestingly, the iconic German-born filmmaker of the ’20s and ’30s, Fritz Lang, had this to say about comics: “I found them every interesting. I got… an insight into the American character, into American humour; and—I learned slang.’ Jim Steranko suggests that Lang was thinking of Eisner.) Letters arrive by the hundred, and not all criticising the colour scheme of Hulk’s left foot. Oh no. They also get asked if Captain America couldn’t wear slightly tighter clothes— perhaps underwear, occasionally—and told how fine they are, those shiny red boots. After one anti-Nazi comic, somebody wrote in to point out that, as anti-Nazism automatically means pro-Communism, he was going to have to come up to their offices with his pistol and shoot them all dead. He’d neatly printed his address on the top of the letter, so the FBI were able to go round and dissuade him. ‘I sure hope they didn’t give that guy a hard time,’ says Herb Trimpe, as if the thought had just struck him. In case the unsubtlety of Herb’s entrance threw you a little, let me explain. Herb drew the Hulk for seven years, between 1967 and early this year. He’d first gotten interested in Marvel around 1967, after seeing Lee/Kirby’s ‘Thor’. He got a job with the company later that year, operating the photostat machine—‘best job in the place’—passed through inking, and went into pencilling the Hulk (these esoteric occupations will be explained). This spring, Herb quietly explained to Stan Lee that seven years of sketching what Rolling Stone once compared to a thermonuclear avocado was going through his brain like a fretsaw. So Marvel gave Herb a sabbatical, both from the Hulk and from New York. He is now happily drawing Iron Man from a cottage in Cornwall. ‘People look at the comics and say, wow, what is it you guys take? Acid? What is it? But it’s not like that at all. Most cartoonists have mortgages. Even when I’m working out of the office, I keep in mind that it’s just a job, a nineto-five day.’ What! No intense figure, crazed with inspiration, hunched over the Silver Surfer into the early hours of the morning… ‘Is the Cosmos itself but a flickering ember of imagination ignited by a random thought—only to be snuffed out at will?’ Yes. Marvel Comics are actually produced by a production line. First, a writer (who will be paid about $20 per page) outlines the story. This outline is then passed on to the penciller (who, depending on his stature, will be paid much more than the writer—at least twice as much). The penciller sketches in the frames, develops the characters, etc, and passes his artwork on to an inker, who turns pencil lines into ink lines. A letterer then draws the speech bubbles and fills them in, and the whole process is completed by a colourist, who either adds the colour overlay personally, or writes directions and sends the boards off to a line of ladies. These ladies sit at a big table, each responsible for a colour. They examine each frame and add their colour where necessary—the lady responsible for red must, for instance, remember to put a light tone of her colour on to magenta, so must the lady responsible for blue. (They probably aren’t paid very much.) ‘You get fits,’ says Herb, ‘where you want to do your own inking and colouring. But to make any kind of living out of comics, you have to treat it as a job, it’s not worth worrying that much. The way I see it, I’m like a decorator. I just give people what they want. I just come in and say, What colour d’ya want the wall? Pink. OK, I’ll paint it pink…’ COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

Not all artists, obviously, are happy with this situation. Herb says that his friend Barry Smith (the brilliant English artist who went to New York and ended up doing ‘Conan’ for Marvel—and doing it superbly, some say better than the legendary Frank Frazetta) is so pissed off with the lack of individuality allowed Marvel’s artists that he wants to branch out on his own. They tamper with it, claims Barry, mess it about, it’s not your work when it hits the stands. Herb shrugs, ‘When I first started, Stan would say, look at Kirby, do it like Kirby, copy Kirby. He would tear my stuff apart, not allow me to develop. I didn’t like it. I said, Kirby, sh*t, I want to do my own stuff. But you do learn from copying other, greater artists. Artists always have, right from the Renaissance. And Kirby had taken comic books into something different, something fast, new, fresh, dynamic. He’d helped to make it easy for an artist to make a steady, comfortable living out of them. So it wasn’t so bad copying him. And anyway, I never was asked to keep the artwork exactly as it was before. There was some leeway. It was Marvel, of course, who first exploited ‘artist recognition’, turning the production line into celebrity figures. Nifty Neal Adams, Fearless Frank Giacoia, Happy Herb Trimpe and the rest of the Bullpen, headed, naturally, by the slim, moustachioed leader. Excelsior! Stan. Readers’ letters are paeons of detailed praise for the work of one particular penciller, colourist, or even letterer. The Marvel workers are almost as superheroic as their characters. Herb doesn’t mind this, he sees it as part of a loosening up of the comic world—‘Five years ago the whole system was more formularised, now some of the young guys are doing work that Stan wouldn’t have accepted then.’ They have their following, the Barry Smiths. Herb’s flicking through a recent comic. ‘Standards have dropped,’ he says, ‘in the last two or three years, since Stan started concentrating on publishing rather than editing. He used to go over every strip frame by frame, and take care. Not any more. Look at that’—Herb’s pointing at a speech balloon overlapping and partly obscuring Iron Man’s face—‘once upon a time they’d have taken the trouble to lift the head over that bubble. Not any more.’ It doesn’t seem to get to Herb too much, however. He’s maybe going to mention it to them when he gets back to New York. In the meantime, he doesn’t bother them, and ‘of all commercial art areas, comics are the least hassle. They very seldom change things, you’d have to commit a tremendous crime before they’d send it back.’ ‘When all’s said and done’, asks the Silver Surfer [in the closing story panel of “Worlds Without End!”, from June 1969’s Silver Surfer #9] with his fist clenched, agonised, against his brow, ‘who is the dreamer—and which is the dream?’ Underneath that, the end had been inscribed in rather clumsy, globular lettering – it seemed to me by a different letterer. ‘Perhaps,’ concludes the Surfer,’ it is better that we shall never know!’

Above: Advert for the ICA Marvel art exhibition presented between Oct. 18–31, 1975. This appeared across the British reprint weeklies for weeks, sometimes as whole page ads, as here, or as a half-pager.

Below: Luigi Novi’s photo of Herb Trimpe, taken at the 2015 East Coast ComiCon, two days before his sudden passing on April 13, 2015, at the age of 75.

[Special thanks: Roger Hutchinson and Linda Fite.] 11

darrick patrick’s ten questions

Devin Kalile Grayson The first woman to create, launch, and helm an ongoing Batman title talks with Darrick by DARRICK PATRICK [Professional writer Devin Grayson took on our “10 Questions” assignment as has no other CBC contributor, sharing with us a fully-rounded, candid, and thoughtful portrait that leaves us breathless…and grateful! As you’ll learn, she’s been writing in the industry for over two decades, notably on Batman: Gotham Knights, The Titans, Black Widow, Nightwing, X-Men: Evolution, and many others. Nominated for the Comic Buyer’s Guide Award for “Favorite Writer” in 1999 and 2000, she also was nominated for a 2001 GLAAD Media Award for “Outstanding Comic Book” for her Vertigo series User. She’s also a novelist (Doctor Fate: The Fate of Dreams). Her most recent project is Rewild, an original graphic novel published by Berger Books/Dark Horse.—Ye Ed.]

Darrick Patrick: What was the journey that led you to working professionally within comic books? Devin Grayson: I guess it was mostly that I fell in love with a guy in a cape. As I’ve mentioned in other interviews, I didn’t grow up reading comic books. They just weren’t on the radar of anyone in my family and I was about as unaware of them as you can be. I knew about comic strips in the paper and that was about it. I was enamored with the idea of exploring human complexity through fiction from an early age, though, and wanted to be an actress. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area with access to lots of exciting theater programs for kids, including a Performing Arts high school in the city (shout-out to my SF SOTA alum!), and I was committed to finding a way to make a living performing on stage. I didn’t consciously change my mind about that until I was in college. At the time, I think I felt both that I was too introverted for a life in the theater arts and that it might be more interesting to create the dialog of fictional characters rather than deliver it. But looking back, I suspect another piece of it was that I had been diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes at the age of 14. I wonder now if diabetes might have shaken my confidence in my ability to use my body as a conduit for sharing the stories of fictional characters. I began to turn inward and spend more time writing, which is something I’d been

Photo © the respective copyright holder. Rewild TM & © Devin Grayson and Yana Adamovic.

Above: Devin Grayson. Inset right: Devin’ and Yana Adamovic’s recent original graphic novel, Rewild, a “magical realist” tale, published by Berger Books. Below: Dixie, an Early Alert Canine at an important nonprofit where Devin volunteers. Please visit EarlyAlert-Canine.org for details.

doing since I learned to hold a pencil. I later learned that the presence of some kind of childhood illness, or physical challenge, shows up in a great many comic industry veteran origin stories. Maybe the final prod in the direction of writing rather than acting for a living came via positive reinforcement. I was in some kind of social studies class during my freshman year of college and we were given an assignment to write about someone who had profoundly affected our life. And I really don’t remember why I did this—I spent most of college as a very serious student; it was highly out of character for me to screw around with an assignment like this— but, for some reason—probably because I was obsessing over a story—I used a completely fictional character for my essay. I ended up having to read it aloud to the class, who ended up—much to my genuine surprise—being strongly moved by it. That’s a drug. Being able to get a reaction out of people like that. I imagine any hesitation I had about being a professional fiction writer evaporating at that moment. That happened at a community college, and by the following semester, I was matriculating to Bard in upstate New York to study creative writing with Mona Simpson. Still no comics, though. They didn’t become part of my world until a year or two after graduation. I was back in California, living in a studio apartment in San Francisco with my girlfriend at the time and working in the research division of a large HMO when

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Nightwing TM & © DC Comics. Rewild TM & © Devin Grayson and Yana Adamovic.

I happened to channel surf past an episode of Batman: The Animated Series. I was not someone who watched a lot of animation and I’m not really sure why it grabbed my attention as strongly as it did except for the obvious: it was brilliant. And different. And new. Everything about it, from the way it looked to the kind of stories they were telling, spoke to me, and almost immediately I zeroed in on the relationship between Batman and Robin. It occurred to me that Batman had sort of de facto raised Robin, and that presented some kind of fictional knot in my head that I absolutely had to untie. I was instantly hooked. And from there it just became a matter of tracking the characters down to their medium of origin, which is what finally brought me to a comic store. The next step in my becoming-a-professional-in-thecomics-industry story was cold-calling DC Comics. I asked for “the guy in charge of Batman,” and they put me through—no questions asked—to Denny O’Neil. Fortunately, at the time I didn’t know enough about the history of the industry to understand how legendary he was. If I had, I suspect it would have been a lot more difficult to talk to him. But as it was, we had a really lovely first conversation that boiled down to me introducing myself as an aspiring writer who knew very little about comics and was interested in learning more. I asked if there were any books he could recommend, or courses I should look into taking, to prepare me to script comics. He was quiet for a moment and then he laughed and told me that he got hundreds of calls a day from people who had read every comic ever written and wanted him to teach them how to write, which he wasn’t sure that he could do, but that if I really could already write, teaching me more about comics should absolutely be possible. He passed me on to his editorial team: Scott Peterson, Darren Vincenzo, and Jordan Gorfinkel—and they sent me great suggestions, like Scott McCloud’s brilliant Understanding Comics: The Invisible Art (a book I buy about five copies of a year just to hand out to people asking

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

questions like the ones I was asking back then), and Robert McKee’s story structure seminar, Miller’s The Dark Knight Returns, everything Alan Moore ever wrote… you know, essentials. I read all of those books and took that class and sent them samples of my writing (which infamously included fanfic) and a few months down the road they gave me the chance to write a short story for the anthology series The Batman Chronicles. Then there was a Batman Plus Arsenal standalone and another story for Chronicles and a Nightwing Annual, and by then I’d saved up enough to visit them in New York. Denny eventually offered me the Catwoman monthly and I perhaps unwisely quit my day job and moved to NYC to become a full-time comics writer. Since my goal was so singular, though— to write Batman and Nightwing, which, through a combination of hard work and incredible good fortune I got to do pretty much immediately—it actually took me quite a long time to realize that I was not just “writing Batman,” but was actually making a career in an industry I still didn’t know a lot about. For the first 10 or so years of my professional life, all my projects were assigned to me. The people I was working with understood that I didn’t have a deep history with comic books and so wasn’t walking around dying to write X or Y character outside of Gotham, so they just kept suggesting things. That’s how I ended up doing self-generated stories like Relative Heroes in the DCU and User over at Vertigo, as well as projects like The Titans and, over at Marvel Knights, Black Widow. Stelfreeze approached me

Above: Detail from Nightwing #78 [Apr. 2003]. Art by Rick Leonardi and Jesse Delperdang. Below: Panoramic panel from the graphic novel, Rewild. Art by Yana Adamovic.

Above: Cover of Omni #1 [2019], the Humanoids mini-series written by Devin. Cover art by Mike McKone. Below: Devin helped launch the Marvel Rising titles with a team-up of Ms. Marvel and Squirrel Girl. This cover detail is from Marvel Rising #1 [May 2019]. Art by Audrey Mok.

in sociology and has deeply influenced the way I look at the broader frameworks people move through, which I’ve come to believe is such an important part of effective storytelling. Just as critically, he’s a musician. He plays saxophone and clarinet. I grew up listening to him play me lullabies from his giant Fake Book and these days I love getting the chance to see him play live with the fantastic jazz band he leads, so I credit him with my love of music as well as for giving me the courage to pursue creative passions. My parents divorced when I was quite young, so another formative aspect was early exposure to different ways of living one’s life. I think the powerful, comforting sense of family-as-unshakable-foundation isn’t available to children of divorce, but what we get instead is this tremendous flexibility. Going back and forth between two or more homes, it’s impossible not to notice how many choices people make about how they set up their lives, and the kinds of rules they follow, and the influence of the people and events and ideas for which they make room. I ended up with wonderful step-parents and half-siblings in the ensuing chaos and remain profoundly grateful for how much of the world—both in terms of geography and content—my family exposed me to. In terms of writing, one of my biggest early influences was Anne Rice. I got absolutely lost in her Vampire Chronicles in high school. I just adore the way she works with descriptive language and character. I wrote her a fan letter when I was a teenager and she was kind enough to write back. She was very supportive of my creative goals and a very passionate advocate for obsession, which she admitted drove most of her creative work. In my letter to her, I’d expressed concern about my own obsessive tendencies, particularly concerning how quickly my mind would take little sparks of inspiration and spin them off into entire fictional realms I had a tendency to get lost in, and it was so reassuring and empowering to have her share that she’d built a career on much the same thing. It’s a wonderful letter that I treasure to this day. Darrick: Do you have any words of advice for other individuals looking to make a career with their writing abilities? Devin: I think the most important thing is to make sure you actually love the process of writing. That’s what the vast majority of your days (and nights) are going to consist of; not receiving accolades or praise, not hanging out with other writers, not “fixing” continuity “errors” for your favorite characters—just writing. And rewriting. And compromising and rushing and having to rip stories apart at the seams to start over again and then writing some more. I love the Dorothy Parker quote about “having written” because it’s so on point—“I hate writing, I love having written.” If you don’t love storytelling itself, and language, and long hours lost in both, you need to find something else to do professionally. And although I advise against being too narrowly focused, I do think it’s important to have a sense of what you hope to accomplish and to research and learn about the publishing industry and whichever strange little corner of it you intend to inhabit. Most writers lean toward introversion, but to be successful, you’re going to have to muster up enough sociability to market yourself and work cooperatively with other people, be they your co-creators in the case of comics, your clients in the case of adaptations, or your editors and publishers. I‘m a very good team player, but I’m not great at marketing myself and I think it’s pretty clearly hurt my career. I should probably at very least have hired someone to help me with it by now. It’s also useful to remember that there are a lot of people out in the world who can write brilliantly and equally as many who can’t write well at all. It doesn’t come naturally to them. I’m always startled when I encounter them, but they’re out there—especially in the business world. And you want to keep that in mind if you’re one of the people who can write well because you’ve probably received encouragement and overblown praise from them—as I did #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Omni TM & © Devin Grayson and Ariela Kristantina. Marvel Rising TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

about helping him with Matador, and even the licensed character novels I got to do—which I absolutely loved, having always felt more comfortable working in prose—were projects that were brought to me rather than jobs I pursued. All of which is to say that despite the single-minded focus and determination I brought to the goal of writing Batman, a lot of my subsequent career felt like a happy accident. I still look up sometimes and wonder how I ended up doing this, though I suppose that’s true for many people in many different lines of work. Darrick: Who are some of the people that greatly influenced you while growing up? Devin: Well, my parents, for sure. “Family” is one of the themes I frequently circle in my work, and a lot of the characters I write are deeply influenced by the parental figures in their lives. A decade or so into writing professionally, I mentioned to a friend that I was puzzled by that. I said something to the effect of, “I don’t know why I do that so much in my writing, it’s not like we think about our parents all that often in real life.” And she literally laughed in my face as she reminded me how often I bring up my parents and how many of my behaviors and joys and concerns appear to be shaped by them. She was right—I think the truth tends to leak out in fiction whether we intend for it to or not. My mom, whom I lost earlier this year to cancer, led by example. She was incredibly intelligent and devoted her life to helping and showing up for people, but I think her defining characteristic was how intensely she took delight in so many places, people, and things. She passed all of that reverence on to me, and there’s almost nowhere I can go now without encountering something or someone she treasured, which has made the world a very magical place. My dad is a charming, thoughtful, warm, humorous individual who gave me all the practical skills I’d need for navigating life. He’s a strong believer in hard work, and both personal and social responsibility, as well as someone who’s invested in health and happiness and creating a life worth living. He has a doctorate

Widowmakers, Doctor Strange TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

back in that sociology class—that has in no way prepared you for the indifference you’re going to encounter as you start to work with other people who, like you, find writing as easy as breathing. You need confidence and a desire to share your voice, of course. But you also need humility and a desire to consistently improve. And if you’re asking for people’s time and attention, you need to have something to say. Last but not least, the most important advice is well known: you can’t be a writer unless you write. And you can’t be a good writer unless you read. Darrick: How do you spend your time on a typical workday? Devin: I’m not sure there are typical workdays. That’s part of what I like about the job. There are projects, and each one requires a different response depending on size, scope, and deadlines. These days, with everyone working and attending school from home due to the Covid lockdowns, I’ve been doing a lot of work at night, since it’s the only time the apartment’s quiet. Generally speaking, I’m usually at my desk from late morning until late afternoon, and then again for several hours at night. Mornings are for dog walks and evenings are for family, but writing is really a 24/7 job. Even when my fingers aren’t on the keyboard, I’m ruminating, reading, researching, plotting, observing, or pulling on a story knot. That’s both the blessing and the curse of the work. The blessing is that no experience is ever wasted; the more you learn and experience, the more material you have to play with in your work. The curse is that there’s no real downtime. We all think narratively, but for people who tell stories for a living, the shapes of those narratives are visible from every angle. It’s hard to be in a conversation without noting the way motivational beats change, it’s tricky to enjoy an adventure without tucking parts of it away for later use, and it’s difficult to watch or read stories without thinking about how they’ve been constructed and the efficacy of the story-telling choices that were made. Fortunately, there’s a lot of really top-rate story-telling happening now: online, on TV, and in books. A story told well enough to obliterate that analytical impulse is such a gift. Darrick: For new readers who may not be familiar with your work, what are some projects of yours that you would recommend to begin with? Devin: Well, that depends on who they are. If they’re big DC fans, I’d point them to Batman: Gotham Knights, or my Nightwing or Titans runs. B:GK has recently been collected into a few nice TPBs, which is quite convenient. If they’re into Marvel, I’d recommend my Black Widow work, which includes a recent Widowmakers one-shot with Red Guardian and Yelena Belova (whom I created along with the stellar artist J.G. Jones), or maybe my Doctor Strange novel, The Fate of Dreams, which can be read independently of any knowledge of the MCU. Or if they’re younger, I might point them toward Marvel Rising, which was a really fun project featuring Squirrel Girl and Ms. Marvel. I’ve been fortunate enough to work with some amazing artists, including Brian Stelfreeze on Matador, and Sean Phillips and John Bolton on User, both of which are currently available through Image. And I’m proud of the work I did recently on Omni for Humanoids, with the fabulous Alitha E. Martinez. The project I’m most excited about, though, is Rewild. It’s an original graphic novel which came out last December from Berger Books at Dark Horse. I’ve been describing it as a contemporary, climate-conscious fairy tale and am thrilled when it’s included in the emerging genre of cli-fi [climate fiction]. It could also fairly be called Magic Realism. The artist, Yana Adamovic, is making her American debut here, and I could not be more excited for everyone to see how brilliant and rich her work is. Every panel is so filled with COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

story and life. I’ve been looking at her work on this for two years now and still discover new things in her drawings all the time. Her storytelling is so clear and compelling and her line work is both lyrical and precise. The book itself is lovely and, I hope, important, and I’m so excited to share it with the world. The vibe is kind of Fables meets The Fisher King. The story explores the interdependency of human well-being and nature, with the fairy kingdom re-imagined as a metaphor for our relationship to the natural world. It even has a moral: destroying nature takes a toll not just on our external environment, but also on our internal ones. We’ve created mythical creatures to help symbolize our collective imaginings about the spirit of nature; when we corrupt nature we corrupt those mythical personifications, a distortion that takes a toll on our individual and collective sanity as well as on the planet. The story begins with a young woman interrupting a city council meeting to demand that a new park be built to appease an encroaching army of deformed Fae[rie] that will otherwise destroy the city and everyone in it. As anyone currently living on this planet can guess, I can’t promise a happy ending. But, thanks to Yana, the

Above: Mike McKone cover for Widowmakers #1 [Jan. 2021]. Below: Devin writes novels based on DC and Marvel characters. Doctor Strange: The Fate of Dreams was published in 2016. Kevin Nowlan cover art.

Above: Devin Grayson coldcalled Batman group editor Dennis O’Neil having no idea of his stellar reputation in the comic book industry. The late writer/ editor mentored the novice comics scripter, helping Devin to develop into a renowned pro. These photos are by the very much missed CBC photographer and collaborator, Seth Kushner.

Below: Devin has great admiration for the talents of legendary comics editor Karen Berger and apparently the feeling is mutual, as Berger recently selected Rewild as a “Berger Book.”

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Portrait and candid of Dennis O’Neil © the estate of Seth Kushner. Photo of Karen Berger © Kenndall Whitehouse.

book is gorgeous and life-affirming. And where we can’t offer you unearned hope, we have attempted to create a space in which to process collective grief. Darrick: Who are a few of the people in the comics industry that you hold a high deal of respect for? Devin: We recently lost a man I’ve always thought of as my comics mentor, the late, great Denny O’Neil. Denny welcomed me into the industry, ensuring I had the resources I needed—both in terms of training and actual people to call on—and he truly understood my strengths as a writer and how best to deploy them, which made me feel valued and seen. He was an astonishingly good editor—just a master at story structure and untying story knots and guiding you toward narrative choices that made sense for the story you were trying to tell—and also a lovely, warm, generous, and genuine person. We bonded over our mutual interest in Buddhism and New York restaurants with tofu entrees. Although he was already an established legend by the time I started working with him, he made himself endlessly available to all of us working in his Bat-office, even opening his home to us for Bat-summits and the like. It’s hard to explain how deeply influential he was to those of us who worked with him. I can’t speak to everyone’s experience, of course. Still, to me, at least, it felt like as a group editor—a leader—he’d quite deliberately created an atmosphere that both nurtured and demanded mutual respect and was therefore beneficial to everyone within its borders. Many people in management positions state that as a goal, but few accomplish it so beautifully. It was such a stunning introduction to the industry. When people talk about landing a dream job, I mean, this was both the content and the structural experience of that. It was such an amazing place to be, and we had a sense, even then, of how special it was—even nicknamed the turn-of-the-century Bat-office “Camelot.” Denny had a great sense of humor and incredibly diverse sets of insights and information at his fingertips, which made him always such a pleasure to talk to. I adored him, and I miss him dearly. He was absolutely one of a kind. Another person I greatly admire is Karen Berger. I met her briefly at DC back in the late ’90s, but have recently had the privilege of working with her on Rewild. She is so sharp and knowledgeable and well-read, and also an incredibly warm, caring person. And, indirectly, I think she’s one of the reasons I work in this industry. Her insistence that comics can be literary has produced work that welcomes those of us with more bookish sensibilities to the medium. The Vertigo catalog, for example, isn’t just a collection of exceptional comics, it’s a bridge. The same way someone who’s read

superhero comics all their lives gets excited by guest appearances by or allusions to, say, Wolverine, literature and theater nerds get excited by guest appearances or allusions to Shakespeare (I’ll need your WolviWill AU headcanons in my inbox stat, please!?). As I explained earlier, I got into Batman through The Animated Series. But I got into comics through the works of Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, and Neil Gaiman… I told Karen recently that Rewild wouldn’t have been possible without Sandman. At the time, I was praising Neil, but that‘s absolutely a tribute to Karen, as well. She’s the standard-bearer, curator, and shepherd for erudite, literary, humanistic storytelling in our medium, and that’s a hell of a legacy. And speaking of erudite, literary, humanistic storytelling, I need to make a quick shout-out to BKV. Brian Vaughan has been a friend for decades, and I couldn’t be a bigger fan of him as both a writer and a human being. As I tell him every time he’ll let me, I know of no other person on the planet so deserving of the success they’ve garnered. He’s just tremendously talented, inspiringly knowledgeable, funny, kind, charmingly self-deprecating, and full of truly interesting ideas. I am forever on his cheering squad. There are so many other people I could name, people who have been generous with their time, ideas, talent, skills, and connections. There are extraordinarily busy and gifted people in the industry who nonetheless make themselves available every time I call or send something I need another set of eyes on, people like Scott Peterson, Mark Waid, Doselle Young, Jay Faerber, David Macho, and Joan Hilty. There are incredibly hard-working editors who are in the trenches every day inspiring me with their drive and dedication to making great comics, people like Sarah Brunstad, Dave Wielgosz, Michael McCalister, Tom Waltz, Heather Antos, Lysa Hawkins, Tom Peyer, and Eric Stephenson. There are people I don’t know well whose work I admire from afar, and people I talk to so often and adore so much I don’t even think about them when I’m writing lists like this even though I very much should. People I’m going to curse myself for forgetting as soon as tell this to you. The last group I do want to make sure to at least mention, though, are the enormously talented and inspiriting artists with whom I’ve been fortunate enough to work. What they do is pure magic to me. One of my absolute favorite things about comics is the collaborative nature of so many of our projects, and these are people who, through their work, help bring characters, ideas, and stories to the world that simply don’t exist until they put in the creative energy to make them real. I’ve been doing this for over twenty years now and have more people I’m inspired by and thankful to than I can name, but some of the incredible artists I think of with deep gratitude on a nearly daily basis include Yana Adamovic, Brian Stelfreeze, John Bolton, Sean Phillips, Roger Robinson, Alitha E. Martinez, J. G. Jones, Yvel Guichet, Mark Buckingham, and Dale Eaglesham. Darrick: Outside of creating stories, what are your interests? Devin: Usually, I would have a long list of interests to discuss. We could talk about gaming (RPG and tabletop), indoor apartment gardening, the beautiful hiking trails in California, parenting and caring for animals, or my extremely tentative steps into maker culture. At the very least, I’d want to mention Early Alert Canines (EAC), the incredible Northern California nonprofit for whom I’m a grateful client and passionate volunteer. EAC is dedicated to improving the health, safety, and well-being of insulin-dependent diabetics through partnerships with certified blood sugar alert dogs. The dogs are trained to use their remarkable sense of smell to detect and alert on shifts in our blood glucose levels and consistently catch potentially life-threatening hypoglycemic events ahead of symptomatic onset. The dogs, either fully certified Medical Service Animals or Canine Companions working primarily in the home, also alleviate so much of the isolation and anxiety that tends to go hand in

hand with chronic illness. I’m so grateful to the organization and hope people check them out. The research I did for Rewild, though, has left me somewhat singularly focused on the environmental crisis. There really is nothing else right now—or rather, all our social issues are tangled up in this one, and if we fail to meet this challenge, we won’t have the chance to work through any of the others. We’re at an unprecedented, terrifying juncture as a species, but also one which is full of potential. We have to recreate everything: the way we interact with one another and the ecosystems we inhabit, the way we use resources and accumulate wealth, whose voices we amplify and heed, and how we perceive our connection to the rest of the planet. People are amazingly adaptable and already you hear talk about the “new normal,” but what I’m afraid people aren’t getting about climate change is that it’s not a pass or fail event. These catastrophes we’re living through already—the fires and floods and viral pandemics and heatwaves and water shortages—they will get worse and worse in proportion to how much fossil fuel humanity burns. The actions we take and fail to take, both as individuals and, even more so, as a collective, will have a direct, measurable impact on our ability to live comfortably on this planet forevermore. The societal feet-dragging we’ve been engaged in for the past 50 years or so has already cost us dearly, but it can, and could, and very probably will get so much worse. Even if we change everything tomorrow. And yet we must change everything tomorrow, or things will get even worse than that, and continue to worsen with every ton of carbon we release. It’s not a will we/won’t we scenario, it’s a how much/ how soon problem that demands collective action. Whatever you can do, you must do. Right now. We cannot afford to give up. I’ll be honest, if it were just humanity’s fate on the line, there’d be a part of me willing to cede it. But we’re taking too many other species and entire ecosystems down with us. If you love the planet, fight for it. If you love animals and nature, fight for them. If you love people and care about justice for disenfranchised groups, fight with everything you’ve got. I have dozens of interests and passions. Normally, I’d like nothing more than an excuse to discuss them. But right now, this is it. The climate crisis demands our full attention. Darrick: What is your oldest memory? Devin: I remember wading in and talking to the Pacific Ocean, which is now like a severely ailing friend. Darrick: Tell us something about you that most people don’t know. Devin: Most people know very little about me, which is just fine. I try to answer questions as honestly as I can, but I’m also a private person. I worry about people who can tell you their entire life story over the course of a single drink. I guess in real life, I always prefer branching narratives to linear ones. I’ve led a full life, marked, as most are, by setbacks and triumphs, and that’s just externally; internally it’s even more dilated, with so many of the books I’ve read and songs I’ve heard and shows I’ve watched expanding into other lives and universes and possibilities, many of which I’ve invested in deeply if you count imagination as a currency (as you should). I could share lots of things, and some of them are important in terms of standing in solidarity with others. For example, I’m a type 1 diabetic, a bisexual, a Gen Xer, and the stepmom to two amazing boys, one trans and one cis. I’m a devout atheist, a feminist, an environmentalist, a liberal, a white Jewish cis female trying very hard to be an ally to other women, my BIPOC neighbors, and, of course, fellow members of the LGBTQIA community. Mostly, though, I’m an Earthling. And right now, what seems most important to share is just that I’ve been fortunate enough to see a lot of the world and have found so much of it absolutely awe-inspiring. I’m blown away by the richness of biodiversity here and the intricacies of our eco-systems, which in turn has left me deeply apprehensive about our apparent inability, as a species, to recognize our kinship and responsibility to the planet and the species on it, including one another. Darrick: If you had a working time machine, what are some points in history that you would visit? Devin: I do have a working time machine! I have shelves full of them! That’s the true joy of reading and being a writer. I can go anywhere, anywhen, anytime I want to. Please feel free to join me. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

Zine Scene

Ever since the mid-’60s, when I discovered my sister’s collection of The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction, I have freakin’ loved ’zines, whether of the maga- (that’s no all-caps) or fan- variety. I wasn’t even able to read—or barely able to, anyway—when that SF digest inspired me to scribble my first attempt at creating a publication. For no discernible reason, it was called ¡You! (replete with Spanish-style upside-down exclamation point!). I can’t even tell you what the content consisted of, other than it was filled with all the components of a mag, such as the table of contents, masthead, columns, etc. The first one I did that was border-line comprehensible was the high-falootin’ sounding Omega Comic Magazine Review, referred to as OCMR and later changed to Omegazine. My three brothers contributed to the seven or so issues (circulation of 20 max) and I loved doing it until girls took up all my time for my adolescent self. But, as is obvious to all, my passion for publications persists and is unrestrained, so when new ones of note come before me, I positively revel in them. And my favorite of the last few years has been AMERICAN BYSTANDER, as close to being the bastard child of National Lampoon— “y’know, back when it was good… really good… circa 1970–75!”—as anything! The list of contributors is positively stunning, featuring the names of the best cartoonists in America. Period. Though I’ve been a subscriber for quite some time now, I’m ashamed to say that this is my first public mention of Michael Gerber’s sublime and gorgeously designed and produced quarterly. (It’s already 23 issues in!) And I’m doubly chagrined not to give adequate space

here to describe what makes it so wonderfully great but, luckily, Michael offers free sample copies for download at his website, americanbystander.org, so that’ll show ya! In a serendipitous happenstance, Brit zine editor Justin Marriott and yours truly became acquainted and he graciously sent me copies of his latest efforts —PAPERBACK FANTASTIC #3, BATTLING BRITONS #3, and BATTLING BRITONS SUMMER SPECIAL—and, while the subjects are a teensy bit outside my field of expertise, the enthusiasm and sheer love of the subjects the zines exude are positively infectious. Battling Brittons generally focuses on vintage U.K. war comics (with occasional asides about U.S. efforts) and this issue of Paperback Fantastic is gleefully gushing with lurid Brit horror paperback covers. There’s no pricey overseas shipping as they’re printed Stateside and available at amazon. com. Look ’em up!—Ye Ed.

This page: At top are three of editor Justin Marriott’s great ’zines, which you can find at amazon.com. Above is Drew Friedman’s great cover to American Bystander #3 [Fall 2017]. 17

the man called gold

Gold’s Opportunities Mike Gold discusses his first stint as DC Comics flack and the Implosion of 1978! Interview conducted by JON B. COOKE [When last we spoke to Mike Gold, founder of First Comics and creative marketing whiz at DC Comics, the Chicago native shared about his Windy City upbringing, media coordination for the Chicago Seven, and leadership of the National Runaway Switchboard. Here, in the second of our three-part conversation, Mike discusses his first stint at DC. (Note this talk took place during the Covid lockdown and prior to the passing of Neal Adams.)—Ye Ed.]

Above: A button for those who supported the Chicago Seven defendants during their trial in 1969–70. Mike Gold served as their public relations rep and was liaison for the underground benefit comic. Below: Chicago Comicon souvenir booklets for their 1976 and ’77. Mike moderated a panel discussion with Marvel boss Stan Lee and DC publisher Jenette Kahn at the ’77 show, seen at bottom.

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Chicago Comicon TM & © the respective copyright holder.

Comic Book Creator: So, where were we? I guess we’re roughly at 1970. Let’s go on from there. What were your prospects? What were you doing? Mike Gold: After the Chicago Seven trial, I got into one of those Volkswagen Beetles, with a friend of mine, and we drove to the coast. He was moving to the Berkeley area, and we drove down as much of the old Route 66 that was still around—much more then than there is now—and he dropped me off in Los Angeles and he went off to the Bay area. (About two years later, he went underground for putting bombs in safe deposit boxes in three different cities to protest the war, and then he told everybody where the bombs were… so I kind of missed the point on that one.) He was a good friend, and he was the guy we used to call Abbie Hoffman’s “Jewish mother,” and it was he who told me that, under no circumstances, was I to give Abbie Hoffman back the $1,000 he gave us to launch the Conspiracy Capers comic book. So this guy, Ron Kaufman, was brilliant and he also had a PhD in psychology. Good guy. After that, I came

back and we did a little thing for a couple of months called the Committee to Defend the Black Panthers. This was in the wake of Fred Hampton’s murder [Dec. 4, 1969], and there was just a lot of stuff that had to be done. We held a couple of rallies, raising money over his death. It was amazing. It’s over 50 years now and it still gets me. I was in Fred’s apartment after they killed him—much later on that same day—because the Panthers had opened the apartment for people to see just where the gunshots went. They went all in one direction, toward the bed, which still was bloodied. And there were no bullet holes in the opposite direction, even though the cops, of course, said they were returning fire. Some bullets then, huh? So we did that and I continued to work for The Seed and I was continuing to broadcast on a number of radio stations at the time. Late in 1970, I think we started the biggest of them, which was on WEAW, where I got to work with my friend, righteous Robert Rudnick, who was pretty much from out of Detroit and New Jersey, and invented what we called underground radio. I also worked with Eliot Wald, who started out at The Seed and moved on to be writer (and ultimately, for a season, co-head writer) of Saturday Night Live. Good guy. And I got to hang out with some really good people. I did that for a few years. It was around ’71 when I worked for a drug abuse prevention program—and I emphasize the word “abuse” to make the distinction between people who were just sitting around smoking weed, not hurting anybody, and people who are hurting themselves or others. I did a lot of work there. We established a radio show for the kids who were in the program. I taught them how to do radio and brokered some time on a wonderful radio station and did a show for like four times a week, which is pretty cool. That’s what got me into the social services field. During that time, Byron Preiss and Jim Steranko did this drug abuse comic book story, “The Block,” and I asked Byron if he could send me some copies to use in the program. So he did and I don’t know if we helped any kids in terms of any drug situation, but I know that we turned a few people into comics fans. So, you know, I felt fulfilled. And, from there, I guess around ’73 (the years are a little misty right now), I was brought into an organization called Metro-Help, Inc. to help found the National Runaway Switchboard, which was an 800 number (that’s still around today) for kids to connect up with local services, and that sort of thing— get emergency shelter or medical attention or what have you. And I helped train some staff and I wrote the funding proposals, and helped plan out program itself to others. Very proud of that program. We helped a lot of kids and they still are helping to this day. So that’s that was it. Get a program like this funded and going for almost 50 years. Now, because of the National Runaway Switchboard— this is what is called “continuity”—there was a magazine that was published by Xerox called Smash. And one of their editors called me for an interview, and I worked with her for days, maybe weeks, on a story about runaways and sexual molestation issues that nobody was talking about in the mid-’70s… familial issues, abuse issues… and we got a lot of press on that. And this woman and I got along really well and she told that to her publisher. And her publisher was so, I guess, impressed that she, the publisher, called me to

Planet of the Apes TM & © 20th Century Fox Film Corporation. Warp! TM & © the estate of Stuart Gordon.

thank me for the interview. And we got into a conversation and the conversation lasted for hours. That woman was Jenette Kahn. So, about six months or so after that, Jenette became publisher of DC Comics, so I called her up, and said, “Congratulations. You know, I’m a big comics fan.” She said, “So am I.” And we talked about all of that. And we had many, many subsequent conversations. At one point, she says, “Would you like to fly out to New York? We’ll show you around DC and we’ll have lunch, and I’d like to hook you up with Neal Adams. He’s looking for a guy to help him run Continuity Associates.” Well, I had met Neal and worked a little bit with him back in the Organic Theater days, with Stuart Gordon, when Neal was about to do some work on the Broadway version of the Warp plays. (See how all of this is linked, Jon? It’s amazing!) I like Neal and loved his work (and I still do and still like him), but I really wasn’t interested in working for him. It just didn’t quite click for me. But I went out there anyway, because I’m a fanboy and I was given a tour by the publisher of DC Comics! That’s pretty cool! Jenette and I went to a restaurant—a very good businessman/ritzy restaurant—and she and I talked passionately, and I mean passionately, about comics for three hours. This was, like, 1976, when people were not really talking about comic books in public (because otherwise you were a degenerate). Well, for three hours, there’s all these other businessmen around and you can see that they couldn’t believe their ears that we were talking so passionately about what was right and wrong about the comic book industry, where we thought it was headed, and where it should be headed, and what we could do about that. So, you know, we had a great fanboy conversation. And I flew back to Chicago, thinking, “Well, I had a nice lunch.” I had invited Jenette to that first Chicago ComiCon, because I was on the committee, to be one of our guests of honor, along with Harvey Kurtzman and Stan Lee. So we had both publishers of DC and Marvel there, which was seriously cool. So she took us up on that and that was the one that was held at the Playboy hotel. The day after I came back, she calls me up and says, “You know, I’ve been thinking about our conversation.” I say, “Yeah.” She said, “I don’t want you to work for Neal,” and I’m trying to figure out the polite way of saying, “Well, that’s cool and I really didn’t want to either,” and she says, “No, I’d like to have you come and work for me.” And I stopped and had one of those “Wait—what?” moments, and said, “What are you talking about?” And we talked about the whole idea of setting up essentially a marketing and public relations department, that sort

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of thing, focusing on the direct sales market, which, by then, was an important force, but not a vital force. Meanwhile, the newsstands were coughing up blood like no one’s business, so they had to do something. And given my role with the Chicago Con, and also with consulting for a number of Chicago area retailers and a few others outside of the area, they thought I would be a good hire. That changed everything. At that moment in my life, I was at, as they say, between radio stations. I just left one station because they changed format, and I could see the handwriting on the wall. The type of freedom that I had enjoyed on the air for the previous seven or eight years, I wasn’t going to get anywhere else. Those days had passed. So, I took the offer seriously and we talked about the job and I wound up taking it. I moved out to New York for a couple of years and became DC’s public relations and marketing guy, and we started developing the first tools to promote our books to professional retailers, as nobody had done catalogs or newsletters before and we also started to advertise in places like the old Comics Buyer’s Guide… even Rolling Stone… we did paid advertisements promoting the Superman/Muhammad Ali book. I remember calling up Alan Light, publisher of The Buyer’s Guide for Comic Fandom, and asked, “Listen, Alan, do you take paid ads from publishers?” He answered, “Nobody has every asked me that question before!” I said, “Well, do you want to start?” He said, “Yeah! You bet!” That was a big deal back in 1976–78. So, I went back to Chicago and executed some of those ideas, but not many, and I did other things. I went back to my role at the National Runaway Switchboard, but as a consultant this time, and that was wonderful. CBC: So did you have a contract at DC with Jenette? Mike: No, I had a verbal one but I don’t recall having a written one. CBC: And what was the what was the verbal contract? Was it for? Was it for length of time?

Above: Mike Gold in his first year on his DC Comics gig. From The Buyer’s Guide for Comic Fandom #199 [Sept. 9, ’77]. Bottom left: Mike was interviewed for the third issue of Jenette Kahn’s Smash magazine [1975]. This led to a deep connection with Kahn, who remembered the Chicago native when she ascended into the publisher position at DC. Below: Warp! flyers with artwork decidedly not rendered by Neal Adams. Mike helped to promote the Organic Theater production.

This page: Dollar Comics was a bold attempt by DC to increase story content for readers —each issue had no ads—and increase profits for distributors and retailers. “The Big Blockbuster” series lasted from 1977–83, quite a success in those waning days of the newsstand market. Below is House of Mystery #251 [Apr. ’77].

meant to sell in the direct sales market. We had a Jim Starlin OMAC back-up, which I wish had come out; it was beautiful, and all kinds of projects, like Ditko’s “The Odd Man” (the perfect name for a Ditko project!)… but only a little bit of that happened. We had to fly out to [World Color Press in] Sparta to reposition the books into standard 32-pagers, they altered the price to what it had been before the 44-page stunt. The “DC Explosion” became the “DC Implosion.” Word of our financial loss hit upstairs, the very top of Warner Communications. And one of the presidents—I think they had, like, three presidents—one of the old men who helped found DC Comics (or, at least, who helped steal it from Major Wheeler-Nicholson) and he was used to seeing sell-throughs in the 60 to 80% range. I mean, literally, the philosophy was if it was selling better than 80%, you didn’t print enough. He lost it… he just went nuts and couldn’t believe that the books were selling so bad even before the implosion. So, for the next three four days, things were just insane. We didn’t know what was going to happen. We didn’t think that they were going to close down the division, but we knew that they were going to make some severe cutbacks. The Superman movie was coming out in about six months, so they didn’t want to kill the company and I’m not sure it justified that severe type of reaction anyway. They didn’t notice that we were making serious growth in the direct sales market. During my tenure, we quadrupled sales in that market just by paying attention to it. It wasn’t magic. So, finally, they cut our budget in half, cut the titles by half, and they wanted to choose which titles wouldn’t exist. On about the third day into this whole thing, Paul Levitz comes into my office from downstairs and said that they just cancelled Detective Comics. And I said, “What are we gonna call the company?” He was so depressed as not just an executive, but also as a fan that he didn’t smirk, which would have been fair. So I thought about it and said to him (and he gave me credit for this), “Why don’t we do this: I see Batman Family is on the survival list, so let’s slap #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All characters and titles TM & © DC Comics.

Mike: I told her that I would be willing to make a two-year commitment. I worked at DC between August 1976 and August 1978. CBC: Do you recall the Blizzard of ’78? Mike: Oh, every bit of it, and it wasn’t just the Northeast; it was most of America north of the Mason-Dixon Line, including parts of like Oregon and Washington state (not along the coast, but the interior) and nobody’s magazines got out of the distributors’ warehouses for anywhere from like three weeks to two months in the most extreme. Now, when I say magazines, I’m referring to those that were perceived as not having time-value or massive financial value, so National Enquirer got out there every week, as did TV Guide, and Playboy got out on its monthly schedule, but comic books…? That was the last thing on the truck—literally. So, when the blizzard was over and everybody was dug out, those distributors would take all of these books that they never got out of the warehouse and returned them. (In those days, returning was easy; you just signed this paper saying we had a thousand comic books that we didn’t sell.) And everybody’s circulation figures—all comics publishers—just plummeted. Our sell-throughs went down from 40% to 15%, which wasn’t very good to begin with… it was a dying market, a drop just for that period and the publishers lost a fortune. We’d been promoting this “DC Explosion,” which was my title for it, actually, and Jenette came up with this really strange format of 44-page comics with eight-page back-up features, which were, by and large, very fan-oriented,

All characters and titles TM & © DC Comics. Dollar Comics brochure courtesy of John Workman.

the Detective Comics name on top of Batman Family and continue it with the Detective Comics’ numbering.” And he said that might work and got that one through, so Detective Comics became uncancelled. Meanwhile, my pal Gary Groth was pissed off because he thought that decisions had been made and I was telling him decisions were being made, then unmade, then remade and changed every 20 minutes. I don’t think he really believed that; I think he just wanted the story so desperately—maybe he was on deadline, I don’t know. But he called me up and said, “I hear Detective Comics is cancelled. What do you have to say about that?” I said, “Detective Comics is not cancelled.” He said, “But I have impeccable sources that say that it was.” Well, I didn’t want to publicize what we had done, because only a few people understood the maneuver to keep Detective Comics alive and just call it Batman Family, more or less. And also, if it changes in the next 24 hours, because that’s the way things were at that moment. So DC started to rebuild. Now, Marvel had canceled just as many projects, but they did it slowly, not overnight—they did it over the course of several months and they didn’t get stuck with a lot of inventory that they couldn’t use. The industry became a little smaller and a little tighter. It started to regrow as a direct sales-only industry. Now, that wasn’t the purpose of direct sales, but the newsstands were pretty much gone. They were pretty much gone in the early ’70s. To tell you the truth, shopping malls and shopping strips were taking over; landlords were renting out retail space by the profit per square foot. In other words, if you made $1,000 per square foot in your store, you owed them X-percent of that. Comic books were too high maintenance and way too much work. Even though the spinner racks are pretty cool, and they can put a lot of comics into that square foot (that’s why they were created), it still wasn’t good enough to get us into the malls, to keep us in the shopping centers. The mom and pop places were dying like nobody’s COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

business. So too were the corner drugstores across America, as well as the neighborhood newsstands all over. So the traditional system for distributing comics was dying before our very eyes. And the direct sale concept became a lifeline. And those who were smart exploited that. Marvel hired Mike Friedrich to do a better-funded version of the job I had. He, in turn, hired Carol Kalish—two of smartest brains ever in comics marketing. I left the company at the end of my two-year commitment, and Paul Kupperberg (who had been my assistant) and Roger Slifer replaced me, and that evolved into a whole big deal. CBC: Were you involved in that DC Comics Hotline they had? Mike: Yeah, I created that hotline. We had a different person every week with some sort of message, usually about something they were involved with, but also covering some other news, as well. We had maxed out the number of lines, the number of calls, we could get on that number, and the phone company (back then it was the phone company) said, “You really need to buy some more lines.” And I said, “I don’t have the budget; can’t do it.” They said, “You’re overloading our lines.” I said, “I know we’re successful, but we don’t have the budget.” They understood that and went away. A month later, they called and said, “You guys burned out a transponder on our satellite.” I said, “I didn’t even know that was possible.” He said, “We didn’t either.” So I’m thinking, “Hey, that’s pretty cool! We were successful enough to burn out a transponder!” It’s not like they could make a repair (although I did suggest they should send a guy up). So ultimately, we pulled the plug

This spread: Above is (from left) cover, back cover, and interior from a brochure sent to distributors promoting DC’s Dollar Comics line (with Neal Adams art, featuring portraits of Independent News Co. executives). Below, Batman Family merged into Detective Comics, a move suggested by Mike to save the company’s namesake title.

couldn’t emasculate first and did go down to Sparta and start cutting apart the film and rearranging the books. CBC: So you went to Sparta and you cut the film negatives? Mike: No, I didn’t go; our production people did (probably Bob Rozakis, but I’m just guessing there). Comics film is set up in 16-page increments, so what we had for the 44-page comics was an extra half-signature—eight pages—which was a pretty expensive process actually. Because, in terms of press time, it’s the same as if you’re doing 16 pages. So, when we lost those eight pages, they had to go down there and literally cut the film and rearrange the pages. You know, we had ad flats in those days, so in almost every book, the ads were in the same position in all the books in that line for that month. You know, page seven will be paid ad and page 12 will be a house ad, and whatever… so they had to recut it to keep the ad flats in the same position (to get the revenue which, at that time, was desperately needed). I know it seems haphazard, but they really did the best they could. It was just a horrible circumstance, plus the folks who went out there were not 100% certain their jobs would be there when they got back. CBC: That’s that’s a complex job to make it all fit! So did the stuff that was stripped out end up in Canceled Comics Cavalcade? Mike: Yes, absolutely. Almost all that material, although we did find some other stuff that was in inventory that we wanted to protect in terms of copyright and stuff—you know, new characters, and some of which were used. So we published (and, by that, I mean photocopied) some 35 or 40 copies of this two-volume set running… I dunno… maybe 700 pages…? Some of it was great—there was Shade the Changing Man, some Kamandi stuff—and some of it was nice pin-up stuff; some of the stuff was not so good (and you could understand while it remained in inventory). But it was an interesting curiosity. It didn’t occur to me one way or the other #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Superman TM & © DC Comics. Jenette Kahn portrait © the respective copyright holder.

on that because it was very expensive and the phone company didn’t want to continue it and they kept jerking us around. So, it was successful. It was a good stunt and it was as good for as long as it lasted. But, like all stunts, it has its time. CBC: You started the “DC Profiles” feature, right? Mike: I did. I did DC Profiles and I also wrote and designed most of the house ads during that period, but the reason why we had more house ads in the comics was because, for budget reasons, they cut the number of pages of story content down to like 17 and you are at a 32- (or arguably 36-) page format and that left room for a lot of filler material. And, you know, Aurora can only sell so many models. So, you know, I had house ads to fill. And that was fine because that helped me do my job. CBC: You also had editorial material as filler, right? You had Bob Rozakis, “The Answer Man”… Mike: I think Bob started that after I was there, though there may have been some overlap. CBC: But you reintroduced “Direct Currents,” right? Mike: Yeah. CBC: You had mentioned that Jenette had the odd format of 44 pages with backups. For me, as a reader, I looked at that stuff and—God bless the artists—but, you know, there was suddenly an influx of subpar artists, I would say, and some of the top flight talent wasn’t there in mainstream comics any more. Was that a problem? Mike: It was less of a problem for me than it was for the reader. Because for me, it was linear, whereas readers saw that as retroactive decisions, you know, because of the cutbacks and the budget was slashed. We could no longer do some of those backups, we had to bring in some younger, newer talent, some of which was very good—or proved to become very good. I’m always a believer in having a vehicle for new talent, but from the reader’s perspective, it was very haphazard. Whatever was there that we

you know, in the long run, it was a failure. I had that same feeling about the Explosion, that retailers—even though we had back-up material that was really very fan friendly (some which came off well and some that didn’t), but back-up features are just that: back-up features, and retailers didn’t think that kind of stuff helped sell comics. And, in many cases, they were right, and, in some cases, not so right, but, hey, you’re publishing 40 books a month, so some are going to work and some are not. CBC: So what’s your ultimate assessment of Jenette Kahn as publisher? Mike: I worked directly for her in the ’70s, and I loved it. I like Jenette immensely (though I haven’t seen her in about 10 years, although we have communicated). She’s really clever, innovative, and very gut-level, which can be infuriating. But, then again, I tend to operate the same way, [chuckles] so I can’t really complain. Because that’s where the good stuff comes from. Though, every once in a while, you can come up with a bad decision. You can sit there and study with all the books and all the charts, all the sales

This spread: Clockwise, far upper left, is a spread from the 1977 promotional comic book, Magazineland USA, drawn by Joe Kubert and starring Jim Broderick, publisher liaison at World Color Press; above is the Superman Vs. Muhammad Ali wraparound cover with a call-out of Mike (in red); below are various items—including a promotional ticket, publicity shots of the boxer and the landmark comic book, a Daily News newspaper article from Feb. 1, 1978, featuring results of Mike’s PR stunt. At left is a 1977 pic of the late Neal Adams; and inset center next page is a portrait of DC Publisher Jenette Kahn.

Superman TM & © DC Comics. Muhammad Ali Tm & © Muhammad Ali Enterprises LLC.

that there will be an aftermarket for that, that some of the freelancers sold their copies and there eventually a lot of bootleg editions were made. CBC: So were you involved at all with the Dollar Comics? Mike: Yes. It was actually one of my first projects. Jim Shooter gave me some high praise on my promoting the Dollar Comics—and that’s what got Mike Friedrich his job—by saying if I could sell Dollar Comics then I could sell refrigerators to Eskimos (as Inuit were called back then). And I thought that was funny. I thought that the Dollar Comics concept was a good concept. But the minute that they decided to have them saddle-stitched, as opposed to the square-binding that we had on the 80Page Giants of my youth, that’s when it became just another fat comic. And it essentially didn’t work. The whole concept lasted quite a while, but you knew it was doomed the minute they made the decision to either raise the price or cutting the page-count. Particularly since the book did not bulk up like as if it was worth a dollar when the standard was 30 or 35¢. So ultimately, it failed for a variety of reasons. The most significant of which, in the long run, would have been the fact that the direct sales market is not crazy about anthology comics. Which is a shame because it’s a great way to launch new characters or revitalize old characters. And, in some ways, when we did Action Comics Weekly 10 years later, they proved you could use that as a launch pad for new features or for promoting old characters into regular monthly, new comics. That was a cool thing. But,

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cally? It represented everything good and bad about DC. So it didn’t change DC—that didn’t happen until Dick Giordano came in and became editor-in-chief. And he brought me back in, yet better still, he provided a wonderful creative environment so that people like Alan Moore and Frank Miller could thrive. That was when DC came back into its own, as far as I was concerned, and I was pretty fortunate to be part of that. That started in 1986. I returned to DC in January of ’86 for a seven-year stint, when we did The Question and all kinds of just wonderful projects… We did Legends, which I had to start when I was still in Chicago, because it was difficult to get together with the other editors in the aftermath of Crisis on Infinite Earths. I said, “Crisis ended all this stuff, so let’s have this new thing (which I called Legends) to start new stuff. We’ll spin-off a new Flash and start Suicide Squad, and projects like that.” And that’s when DC came into its own, particularly with the success of Watchmen and Dark Knight. Watchmen, in some ways, helped provide the ground for my being able to do projects like The Question and Wasteland, two projects

Above: Mike created the DC Hot-Line and, though short-lived (Nov. ’76–Aug. ’77), it was a resounding promotional success. Inset right: Taking his publicity job to heart, Mike implemented monthly newsletter DC Coming Attractions. Below: Mike makes a direct appeal to fans about the (ill-fated) expansion of DC’s line, which included a price bump that annoyed retailers given comics’ ever-changing pricing during the decade. This led, of course, to the disastrous “DC Implosion” of 1978.

figures that you have, and the outcome is going to be the same. Some are going to work and some are not. CBC: Give me an example of a gut-level decision made by Jenette. We know two that didn’t work—Dollar Comics and the 44-page comics—so what did work? Mike: Well, keep in mind that the 44-pagers didn’t have a chance, one way or the other. Would they have worked? You don’t really know, because they were dead by the time the first come came out. The Dollar Comics did work in that the format lasted for a few years, and that format helped keep Detective Comics alive. So we were able to make the transition to when Detective Comics could support itself again. So I think Dollar Comics were successful, and I know it made money for the company, which is ultimately the only definition of success in a business environment. Aestheti-

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All TM & © DC Comics.

which I’m extremely proud of, among others. And The Question wasn’t started as an attempt to copy Watchmen’s Rorschach—not at all—but because Alan and Dave [Gibbons] got away with doing this really sophisticated story, the likes of which we’ve never really seen before in super-hero comics. And it provided a base where there were older readers or readers who were searching for stuff that was a little bit more sophisticated than your average super-hero comic at the time. And if you were clever and smart and gifted with a strong base of really good talent, you can develop on that. And we did. CBC: So getting back to Jenette: what was her strength? I mean, she obviously brought a breath of fresh air to DC. What else did she bring? What was it? Mike: I think you first have to look at what she stepped into. Carmine had been running the place. I loved Carmine and I loved working with Carmine, but, as it was pointed out to me by everybody who’d worked there before Jenette came along, it was just Carmine. As a publisher, well, to quote Paul Levitz, who was certain by looking at sales figures, which I also looked at, Carmine would just get up in the morning and throw darts at a dartboard and decide which titles to cancel. It didn’t make a lot of sense canceling The New Gods and Forever People—particularly New

All characters TM & © DC Comics.

Gods. That was just a stupid mistake and he shouldn’t have done that. There was no reason for it. Carmine had thought that Kirby should sell better… Even if it didn’t sell that good, they should have kept it. Aside from that, Jenette came into it knowing comics— I think she knew Marvel a little better than DC when she came in—but she knew comics and she understood the enthusiasm and, unlike her predecessors, she really understood the passion it takes for creators to produce a comic book. And she thought that the passion was the most important element of the process. Because the more passionate a creator is on his or her work, the better the work will be. That’s true. I think that Jenette helped set up the environment for all of DC’s massive successes, some of which didn’t happen for another 10 years or so. But you’re changing a thousand years’ worth of tradition. When I came to DC in the ’70s, I would have these discussions with editors… Murray Boltinoff and I got along really well. We were both Chicago kids, both journalism school graduates, both worked for newspapers, and that sort of thing. So we had a lot in common, although there’s a

whole generation between us. And we’re talking about how to compete with Marvel and Murray had no idea what the marketplace was like. But he has an intuitive idea of what Marvel was actually pulling off. I don’t think he understood, but he knew it. And he told me that he thought Marvel Comics was just a fad. This was, like, 1977. [Jon laughs] But I think, after 16 years of continuous growth and market dominance, by that point, proves it’s more than a fad. But, you know, I’m 27 years old, so I’m a sarcastic young sh*t (as compared to being the sarcastic old sh*t that I am today) and I say, “Oh, you mean, it’s a fad like the Beatles, like rock ’n’ roll?” He said, “Yes, exactly!” And I knew that was it. As a marketing guy, I knew that was a stone wall. You’re not going to get past that. The guys at Marvel who had been driving the market for years and were very successful at it, compared to what DC was doing, so if the people at DC think it’s a fad, they probably need different jobs. Or they should at least reexamine the jobs they’re working in. But I’m not putting COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

Murray down. He’s a great guy I absolutely loved him. CBC: But Boltinoff’s books were bland. I loved The Brave and the Bold and I loved Bob Haney and Jim Aparo’s Batman team-up stories, but that was an in spite of Murray’s books. And speaking of DC editors without a clue, I recently read comments by Bob Kanigher, and I was aghast at how wrongheaded he was about what made Marvel so cool. I realize that Julie Schwartz was doing it right… I’m ranting, but I am so surprised by how DC didn’t know how to compete in an industry they ruled for so long… Mike: They didn’t want to compete. And I have two things to say that sound tedious, but hang in there. The first is that there’s a reason why DC hired almost nobody from EC Comics after EC died… almost nobody. The reason for that was because they felt that they were DC Comics and they were the best and they were selling comics like nobody else’s business (which wasn’t true because Dell was outselling them). “We don’t need those guys from EC.” That’s asinine! This was at a time when they were losing guys like John Prentice and the Barry boys, Dan and Sy, to the newspaper syndicates. Here’s this wealth of talent that DC could use— they could have easily used those EC guys on their mystery stories—but they didn’t because they were DC. And that attitude I still saw in the ’70s, which held them back. The second thing is: you mentioned Bob Kanigher. In interviews like this, I tried to be polite and respectful. And I respect a great many of Kanigher’s achievements. But if I had to list the most repulsive people I ever routinely encountered… Given the fact that Hitler died five years before I was born… [Jon laughs] Bob’s name is at the top of that list. Everything you just said and everything that I suspect you have heard and read about him is true. One guy (whose name I will not mention) who had Kanigher as a teacher at the Kubert School, hated Bob like everybody hated Bob. (I never met anyone who liked Bob except Joe Kubert, who was loyal to him and loyal to all of his friends.) That student thought that Bob was the most noxious human being alive… Bob Kanigher was the Donald Trump of comics! But nobody bought his bullsh*t. The story about his creation of the Metal Men is a classic: a hole developed in the Showcase schedule so [executive editor Irwin] Donenfeld told Kanigher, who was his fastest writer, that they needed him to develop something brand-new and it needed to be done over the weekend. Bob said okay, went home, and came back with a completely

Above: Windy City homeboy Mike Gold regales an audience at Chicago Comicon, in 1978. Pic from The Buyer’s Guide for Comic Fandom #249 [Aug. 25, ’78]. Inset left: Joe Staton drew this “DC Explosion” promo ad that touted the revamping of the entire comics line in the summer of 1978. Below: If Ye Ed may interject for a moment: during this time of upheaval for DC, yours truly was heartened by the outstanding Mister Miracle reboot, [#19–24, Sept. ’77–June ’78]. Panel detail from #23, with art by Michael Golden and Russ Heath.

Above: The up-and-coming muck-raking Comics Journal turned DC publicity back onto itself with its snarky headline in TCJ #41 [Aug. 1978], which forever named the debacle that resulted in two volumes of Cancelled Comics Cavalcade, lots of folks being laid off, and a 40% cut of its publishing output.

and I understand that—but when Jenette introduced Muhammad Ali, not a single camera was on. They didn’t care about Jenette, who was very photogenic, or anyone else—just Ali—and I knew he was going to do. I wanted to keep it focused and Jenette and Sol stood behind me and gave me their support. And, to this very day, I remain pleasantly surprised and eternally grateful. The stunt was on the front page of every newspaper pretty much in the world —and definitely in America. Sometimes the comic wasn’t mentioned until the second paragraph, but the first paragraph mentioned Ali, for the first time, would not make a prediction about his real upcoming fight. You couldn’t ask for better promotion than that! You couldn’t buy that kind of publicity! So, that worked out well. I think the book contained some of Neal’s best artwork ever. That full-page shot of Superman all beat-up… god, that was impactful! Having said that, I had also seen Joe Kubert’s version that had been seen and rejected by Ali’s people before Neal was brought onto the project. Neal was a big fan of Kubert, so I know he wouldn’t take any umbrage when I say what little I saw of Joe’s work on the book was magnificent. And Neal rose to that occasion. That was a hard project to get through. The comic sold like a son of a bitch—you wouldn’t believe it—and we did a second printing. But before it shipped, Ali lost that bout, and I don’t think much of that printing ever left Sparta. CBC: You left DC in 1978? Mike: August 20th, give or take a couple days. CBC: Did you have plans? You had projects waiting for you back in Chicago? Mike: Yes, I had set up a few projects. I had a publisher who wanted me to start up a comics magazine sort of like Heavy Metal. That didn’t work out, but it was interesting. We almost published that, and I was able to follow that up with the creation of First Comics (which we really didn’t start until about two years after I returned to Chicago). [At this point, the conversation drifted off the record, discussing mutual acquaintances and off-topic subjects. Just before the audio recorder was shut off, I ventured an opinion about my friendly and forthcoming interviewee.—Y.E.] CBC: Go ahead and argue with me, but I would say that you’re a compassionate guy. And that’s been an asset to you in your long career. Is that true? Mike: Wow. [long pause] Well, every interviewee wants to deny that, but now that I’m old enough to look back on my life and assess it (which I’ve been doing a bit lately), I think there’s a lot of truth to that. I like people. I think I know— and I mean this totally non-cynically—how do we inspire most creative people to do better work. Because I’ve been in the creative industries all my life (including politics, by the way), and there are ways to work with people that are kind and decent and bring out the best in them. There are one out of 100, you know, with whom you just have to crack the whip. And those people, by and large, I don’t want to work with because there are too many reasonable human beings who are ungodly talented who I’d rather work with. Can’t work with everybody! CBC: Next time, Mike, we’ll talk about First Comics. I really appreciate this. I think it’s been very fruitful. Thank you. Mike: Well, I’m really, I’m really enjoying this. I could not have done this interview, even five years ago. But I’m at that point where you made the call and I thought, “ Yeah, I do want to talk about me.” CBC: Yours is such a it’s such an eclectic career. And yet it’s so as you recognize very full well, there’s a linear quality, all these connections. And, if you ask me, the nexus is Chicago, a city that’s really fascinating to me. Mike: I would love to show you around Chicago. I would love to get out of the house. I will show you things that you would not believe! TO BE CONTINUED #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Comics Journal TM & © Fantagraphics. Comic Book Implosion © Keith Dallas and John Wells.

Below: Keith Dallas and John Wells’ fascinating oral history of DC Comics regarding the early years of Jenette Kahn’s tenure as publisher, Comic Book Implosion, was nominated for a 2019 Eisner Award for “Best Comics-Related Book.” It’s available at twomorrows.com as a PDF download. A must read!

100% developed concept called the Metal Men and a script for the first issue, which he gave to [Ross] Andru and [Mike] Esposito, who were two of his prime, go-to artists. “Metal Men” made the deadline and they were actually able to promote it. That’s the reason why “Metal Men” ran in four issues of Showcase and not the usual three given to try-out series. Because they had a hole to fill and the books spun off pretty fast after that, and was, I think, successful in sales. But I think it was successful as long as Bob was involved in the title. CBC: Were you involved with the DC digests? Mike: No, I wasn’t. At the time, I was a big believer in the format and Archie Comics was doing very well with it (though I need to point out that Archie controlled that display space on supermarket checkout lines, like TV Guide and Reader’s Digest)… Archie made it work, but DC only got so much mileage out of it… Swamp Thing really did not look good shrunk down to the size of a postage stamp. CBC: They had a pretty good run, about seven years [1979–86]. Were you there for the end of the Limited Collector’s Edition oversize books? Mike: Yeah. They changed the name of it every couple of weeks. I like the tabloid form, but it suffers because there’s no place to rack it, either in the supermarkets or drugstores. I know that they thought that might be because they would have been racked next to Life, Look, and Saturday Evening Post, but those oversize magazine weren’t around any more, so there wasn’t any place to put it. CBC: Were you at DC Comics for Superman vs. Muhammad Ali? Mike: Yes, but I wasn’t involved in editorial other than consulting for Denny O’Neil for a variety of reasons. CBC: Oh, please, tell us the story! Mike: I knew Ali’s lawyer. I wouldn’t say we were good friends, but we were good acquaintances because he had this office next to my lawyer’s office in Chicago. I did a lot of behind-the-scene stuff plus the promotion. We had this massive press conference and the guys from Warner Bros. movie guys wanted the press conference to promote the Superman movie. I said, “I didn’t want to do that,” totally believing that this guy who was the executive vice president of Warner Communications, was going to overrule me. But Sol Harrison, who was DC president, and Jenette, who was publisher, were standing there, as well. I said, “This is the first opportunity we’ve had—maybe ever—to do a major promotion for comic books. Superman can use this press conference to make the character stronger, as well as the movie and the comic book. But let’s keep the focus on what it is, which is the champion boxer of all time was up there doing a press conference for us.” Now, I also had to start that conference, which I didn’t want to ruin which was that Ali wasn’t going to make a prediction on the outcome of the coming fight. Nobody except for me and my assistant knew who would win and, well, Ali. [chuckles] Neal Adams was pissed because he wasn’t part of the press conference—

comics in the library

More New Books!

Our Man Arndt examines a batch of fresh tomes (and a set of oldies but goodies)

All TM & © their respective copyright holders.

by RICHARD J. ARNDT Since the last column, my school library has been given a federal grant that has largely allowed us the ability to make up for the losses from non-returned books from 2019–20 and the lack of a budget for buying replacements and new books for the same period. We’re still a year behind, but I’m a bit more confident that the library will eventually recover from the impact of the long-lasting Covid-19 pandemic. The first graphic novel to discuss is an adaptation of a French novel—Catherine’s War—scripted by the author of that book, Julia Billet, illustrated by Claire Fauvel and translated into English by Ivanka Hahnenberger. This is a unique story of World War II, somewhat based on Billet’s mother, Tamo Cohen. This is a war story that doesn’t feature a single shot fired, taking place between 1942 and ’45, in German-occupied France, Vichy France, and the later liberated France. The story revolves around a young Jewish French girl named Rachel Cohen, who is living in a boarding school just outside occupied Paris. The Nazis have just announced a massive deportation of Jews to be sent to Germany and Poland. Rachel’s teachers are adamant that no student of theirs will be sent nor forced to wear the yellow Star of David on their clothing. To protect their peers of the Hebrew faith, the staff and students—including Rachel, who’s a photography buff—make fake identity cards for all the Jewish students, changing their names to sound less ethnic and less biblical. Rachel’s new name is Catherine Colin. Before too long, the situation in occupied Germany becomes too dangerous for the Jewish children and they are smuggled across the border into Vichy France, controlled by a puppet government headed by the World War I hero but now traitor Marshall Philippe Pétain. Catherine is first moved to a Catholic nunnery, where she is harshly taught the correct way to make the sign of the cross. Such mistakes can get you killed. She gains a boyfriend at the local photography shop, but her time there is short-lived. Someone has reported Jews are in the nunnery and Catherine, paired with a little girl named Alice, moves again, this time to a farm. That too is only a temporary refuge, as Catherine accidentally reveals to a young German soldier that she is originally from Paris. This time she and Alice are moved to an orphanage in the lower Pyrenees. She stays there until late August 1944 when she hears that Paris has been liberated. Hoping to find her parents, she leaves Alice behind and makes her way across France with the help of the French Resistance. Unfortunately, her parents have vanished two years earlier and she never finds them. She returns to her old boarding school, where she settles in to help teach the younger children. One of her mentors there urges her to do COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

an exhibition of her photos that she’s been taking for the past four years. She re-assumes her real name for the showing and the event is a success. Her boyfriend locates her and the two eventually move to the United States to begin a new life. This is a beautifully written and illustrated graphic novel, dealing with a subject that you don’t see that much of here in the States. The novel is accompanied by a helpful map showing Catherine’s journeys and there are also photographs of some of the real-life characters from the book as well as a question-and-answer section from Julia Billet. This is a great book that I strongly recommend. Another set of books we purchased are the four-volume Simon & Kirby Library set, featuring Jack Kirby and Joe Simon’s wonderful crime, horror, science fiction and “best of” collections. I also managed to snag the second volume of S&K’s Young Romance. I love these books. I’m partial to the Horror and Crime volumes, but all of them have worthwhile stories to read and enjoy. I hope to find a hardcover volume of Young Romance, Vol. 1… somewhere… someday. The books were a little slow to take off, but they are being checked out regularly at the present time. Surprisingly, all of the check-outs to date have been by girls, and those girls are not going for the romance volume first; the crime volume is the most popular so far. I’m not really sure why. New Kid, the 2020 Newbury Award-winning graphic novel—I think the first graphic novel to be so honored—is the third book I’m going to discuss. Jerry Craft is the writer/artist. It’s a good story about a young African-American boy named Jordan who’s going to a new prestigious middle school, which doesn’t have a lot of diversity. He tries to juggle parental expectations and worries about the new school with his efforts to fit in with largely white children who are much wealthier than his family, and his trying to remain a part of his old friends in the neighborhood where he lives. Jordan is a comic book fan and budding artist, and a number of the pages are drawn, by Craft, in a teenaged boy’s style rather than the style Craft is using for the rest of the book. Like I said, this is a good story and Newbury winners always have a place in a middle-school library. The last book is Superman Smashes the Klan, a nice adaptation by Gene Luen Yang and artist Gurihiru of the 16-part 1946 radio show. That broadcast was a landmark exposé of the inner workings of the Ku Klux Klan and this variation is top-notch. Yang and Gurihiru wisely portray Superman as the 1940s version of the character, who is not quite sure of the extent of his powers and how much of those powers he should use. There’s a great essay in the back of the book—”Superman and Me,” by Yang—that explains his personal connection with the story. Every school library should be carrying this book. 27

incoming

A Letter from the Dude

Plus concerns about the frequency of CBC, as well as Ye Ed’s choice of graphics [It took a spell to acquire enough letters o’ comment to put together a proper column this time, but this time we were able to put together an extra-big section!—Ye Ed]

Steve Rude

Above: Ye Ed’s latest opus, The Charlton Companion, should be on sale right now! This should be an enjoyable foray for folks who enjoyed the old Comic Book Artist magazine “carpet-bombing” approach. Below: It’s been a while now since the “Artist’s Edition”-style volume collecting Mike Baron and Steve Rude’s “Sunday newspaper” Nexus strips, but seek this beauty out, people!

[Thank you, Steve! Personally, I don’t sense a correlation between using salty language and any commitment—or lack thereof—to meeting any professional responsibility. One can liberally drop f-bombs, I reckon, and still be among the hardest-working artist/ critic/writer/scholar/educator/editor/raconteurs in the field, especially if that person is earthy-talking Stephen R. Bissette. Your unyielding support means a great deal to me, Steve Rude, particularly as it’s for my current (now nine-yearold!) endeavor, CBC, as I get more than my fair share

Richard Arndt [Here’s an exchange between myself and Joe Staton regarding my column in CBC #28, that Joe has okayed for letter column publication. Now you’ve got a little something to put in there. By the way, Joe had this in the mail to me before I got my own contributor copy of that issue. It’s nice to know someone’s actually reading my [“Comics in the Library”] column.—RJA.] Joe Staton: I really disagreed with [Richard Arndt’s] take on the art of the Brooklyn Bridge graphic novel in CBC #28’s “Graphic Novels in the Library.” The Brooklyn Bridge was a wonderful and heroic achievement on so many levels, [The Bridge] is betrayed by being handed to airless and antiseptic computer art. Really, this is something that should be drawn by Will Eisner. I know Will’s not available, but there must be someone in the current cohort who would have understood what was needed. Richard Arndt: I’m a huge admirer of Joe Staton’s work, from his Charlton days onward. As for disagreeing with me on Brooklyn Bridge, that’s fine. As Mark Twain said, “It were not best that we should all think alike; it’s the difference of opinions that makes horse races.” I don’t think computer art is good at all, and saying that the art in the Peter J. Tomasi-scripted, Sara Duvall-illustrated book, The Bridge, is good storytelling doesn’t mean that it’s particularly attractive. The ceiling for worthwhile Photoshop art is, in fact, so incredibly low that reasonable workmanlike Photoshop art actually stands out. I agree with Joe on Will Eisner but, unfortunately, he’s no longer available. In my opinion, this particular book was well-written, while the artwork wasn’t as bad as it could have been. Attractive? No. Readable with strong story-telling technique? Yes.

Joe Frank Thank you for the great finish to the Joe Sinnott tribute [in CBC #28]. Lots of warm, amusing memories and excellent photos. Loved the portrait of Joe in the Navy and the snapshot of Joe with Buscema and Heck. In fact, the only photo I didn’t like was the malevolent mustache shot. Glad he shaved it off or whited it out. The cool photo of Joe with Terry Austin was captioned, “two of the finest inkers in the history of American comic books.” You’re a master of understatement. Hope you can arrange a talk with Terry soon to cover his own impressive career. I’m always intrigued by your editorials, Jon, as they tell me what’s going on and which projects to anticipate. It’s not just a warm-up act for the crowd or hype about a magazine we’ve already purchased. I’m sorry you had emergency surgery. I’ll not get intrusive, but hope you’re all right and it’s nothing recurring. The editorial spoke of your upcoming projects—some #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

The Charlton Companion TM & © Jon B. Cooke and TwoMorrows. Nexus TM & © Mike Baron and Steve Rude.

Below: Undated pic of Marvel stalwarts (from left) John Buscema, Don Heck, and Joe.

Sounds like you may need some letter column contributions. Maybe I can provide one. Here’s one on your latest: I can tell this magazine is a class act, always has been. There’s a lot of work that goes into it. It has important historical relevance, knowing that there’ll come a time when all things pass. Joe Sinnott, for example, is no longer with us. He had a long life and important history in our business. He fought for our country in a war that few can understand not having lived it. He had an now obsolete belief that allowed him to never miss something as simple as work deadlines. Further, he has always been a gentlemen, as would seem most men of the Golden Age, teaching people many times removed from this time how to act and uphold disciplined standards of work. The ones I was privileged enough to meet were always on display with their suits and ties to confirm these high standards. Interestingly, others showcased in this issue were clearly on the opposite end of personal conduct. Their perpetual need for unceasing vulgarity seems to place them in an entirely different category. Would you agree? For the record, I still agree with [letter writer] Joe Frank that my own interview should’ve been hacked in half. Too much rambling is in nobody’s best interest. It’s simply too boring to maintain continued interest. Nice graphics, though. Top notch all the way. Jon, proceed forward and continue doing your best work for this valued forum. History will surely prove me out. A nice entertaining issue—even if you covered folks I don’t recall from my childhood or teens.

of “I prefer your earlier work in Comic Book Artist,” from folks, referring to my previous magazine, which, while I’m grateful for their sentiment, fills me with mixed emotions. That CBA-era laser focus on larger subjects, so to speak, is put to good use in my books, the next being The Charlton Companion, due any day now. — Y.E.]

All TM & © the respective copyright holders.

in detail, others in the vaguest of terms—but, while I’m glad you’re so productive, I do worry about CBC, a magazine that’s so long between issues. While I may not care for a particular interview subject or short article, I do very much enjoy the magazine and wish it was released more frequently. My fear is, with so much going on, it might just be easier to do projects without a deadline and the magazine could be a goner with you doing plays and books. Am I concerned for nothing? Had a big laugh in the conclusion of the Bud Plant interview. He did something that collectors do, to their everlasting regret: parted with his collection. He noted, “Early on, I sold my Marvels like an idiot…” and “I guess I’ll sell my ECs.” Trouble is, when one does, afterward they pay a radical multiple of their windfall to buy them back. These days, maybe all someone could reasonably afford is a reprint set? I disagreed with Bud’s assessment of Jack Kirby’s work; that he’s not as good on his own. I loved many of his solo books and appreciated that they spoke and read precisely as he intended, not masked in meaning or changed in intent. Plus, more of doing the lion’s share and having his contributions downplayed? No one needs that. Bud’s entitled to his opinion—that’s what an interview is for—but I don’t see Stan as a solution since I don’t view solo Kirby as a problem. I wasn’t familiar with Steve Bissette’s career, aside from reading his 1963 material, but the interview had its highlights. The big moment for me, early on, is Steve so impressed Joe Kubert that Joe, in turn, convinced [SRB’s] father to believe in and support him, too, covering his second year at the school. Later, Steve took a job at the Center for Cartoon Studies; his way of paying the Kubert’s back for instructing and treating him so well. Also liked that, with Taboo, he was strident in wanting to do the project his way. Horror/terror is not my thing whatsoever. But, if someone has a vision or direction, it needn’t appeal to everyone (especially me). Especially appreciated that he gave permission to make the [Taboo] chapters as long or short as they need be rather than having the allotted space dictate the material. Quite a different approach. This seemed a reality check for comics; that it’s not all sunny nor unrelentingly terrible. He’d known, full well, that earlier creators got short-changed by the business. Yet he had people like Joe Kubert, Dave Sim, and Len Wein, along with other kind editors, watching out for his interests and helping him along. That in contrast to blackballing/ silent treatment/lack of credit/unkept promises/payment problems/worsening distribution, etc. He described himself and others as “dedicated” and “obsessed”; enthused and willing to work in comics. Thankfully, though, when he found some treatment unacceptable and impacting his finances and family obligations, he put those first and found a job, for a time, in the real world. It’s like any situation: when it becomes a one-way street or beyond endurance, there’s the welcome, logical option to simply find something else. I’m sure a life in comics, if that’s someone’s dream, can be exciting and pleasurable. But when it’s non-stop hassles and unkept promises, no one’s obligated to stay. A good issue, Jon. Thanks. Hope you’re on the mend. [Your commitment to letter-writing is very much appreciated, Joe. Quite often, yours is the singular commentary I receive on an individual issue, though this time we are fortunate to receive a bounty of missives. As to your worry about CBC frequency—understandable, as this is the first issue in quite a few months—I perceive your concern, Joe. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

There are times when the pull of book-writing can be significant, but I usually restart my commitment to CBC soon enough, but I’ll work on being more frequent. This is pretty much a one-man show, so it is a matter of finding the time for everything. I’ll do my best, amigo, to be more timely. I am jazzed that, in addition to the Michael Cho issue coming in the next CBC, Rick Veitch has just agreed to be the subject for CBC #31, which will also include a history of Epic Illustrated magazine. (That latter item will help promote my next book, a history of Métal Hurlant’s first incarnation, the first decade of Heavy Metal, and all those MH/HM knock-off mags of the ’70s/80s!). Your devotion helps rejuvenate my responsibility to readers, Joe! (And thanks for the good wishes regarding health. In fact, the household just experienced our first bout of Covid-19, but all is well now, thank you very much!)— Y.E.]

Michael H. Price I am enjoying immensely your Bissette interview in CBC. Reads very much like Steve’s and my occasional conversations, with philosophical and factual insights galore. Among my keener achievements are a couple of Taboo appearances, to say nothing of a guest-shot by Steve in one of my Forgotten Horrors books. Good of you to devote such a wealth of space to a brilliant and influential career. [Michael, who helped me tremendously in The Book of Weirdo, kindly sent along a copy of his and Dave Ferman’s wonderful cornucopia of crime comics, Lone Star Larceny, a gargantuan, 334-page compilation of “350 years of Texas-bred mayhem, murder and misanthropy.” It’s an absolutely marvelous collection of cobbled-together comics, public-domain stories, and previously published material that, while all dedicated to the crime-in-Texas theme, are incredibly eclectic and way too diverse to adequately describe here, but the wildly entertaining tome is highly recommended—and inexpensive, too! A mere 14 bucks and change according to Amazon. Thanks, MHP!—Y.E.]

Above: As mentioned in Ye Ed’s reply to buddy Michael H. Price’s kind missive herein, it’s MHP and Dave Ferman’s enormously fun Lone Star Larceny trade paperback, over 300 pages of comics devoted to Texas criminals of the last three-and-a-half centuries! Below: Ye Ed and Mrs. Ye Ed were delighted to be invited to pal Denis Kitchen’s birthday soireé this summer! Not only did Y.E. get quality time with one of his favorite cartoonists, Peter Poplaski, and chat with old chum (and equally admired artist) Rick Veitch, but brother Andy and I hand-delivered our Will Eisner documentary DVD to attendee Neil Gaiman (who appears in the furshlugginer movie!), plus all of us got this limited-edition Pete Pop button!

Ben Gross I have written before, in fact you published one of my letters on the Wallace Wood issue. I wanted to make some pointed comments regarding you editorial choice in the Bissette issue, which I recently purchased from TwoMorrows (I buy all my mags directly from the publisher). My complaint is this: in the Mike Gold piece, I notice that you have used up a lot of your very limited page space by publishing “historical” images that really have little or nothing do in any way with 29

Above: Ye Ed buddy AndrewSteven Damsits shared his extraordinary tome, Roy G. Krenkel, Father of Heroic Fantasy: A Centennial Celebration! Below: This spring, Ye Ed visited Marc Svensson in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts!

either Mike Gold directly or his work in comics. Several examples: You publish both a Bill Mauldin cartoon about Kennedy’s death, as well as the front page of a newspaper with this as the headline. So, just because Mike was alive when these events happened, they deserve all this space in the article? Kennedy’s death was experienced by all 200 million living Americans… it did not impact Mike Gold personally or specifically. It’s simply historical background. You publish pictures of William Randolph Hearst and also a newspaper editor. But why? Because Mike Gold, like thousands of other Chicagoans, read the newspapers? What has a picture of Hearst to do with comics or Mike Gold’s career in comics? You publish a photo of the Chicago 7/8 or whatever, but again, this is merely historical background from 1968. it has very little to do with Mike specifically, comics, or his career in comics. If I wanted to read an article about the political climate and events of 1968, I might expect this, but I am not reading such an article. Similarly, do we need to see a picture of a communist radical who also was named Mike Gold? There is nothing wrong with this being mentioned in the interview, but why was the precious little visual space you have used to show a picture of this man, who essentially has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You also seem really pumped up that he is a communist radical, which seems odd and overtly political. You publish photos of a Chicago improv comedian, whose name escapes me at the moment. Why? Who is this guy? Why does he deserve so much visual space in your article? Oddly, you don’t bother to publish a picture of John Belushi, who Mike Gold also knew, and who was a huge superstar in the 1970s, not an obscure, locally known comedian. Strange to me, this editorial choice. I first noticed this in your Ramona Fradon article some years back. You published photos of Edward R. Murrow, and other newscasters of the late 1940s, simply because Ramona happened to work in the same Manhattan building as they did, while she was a very young woman. Murrow and Cronkite, or whoever it may be, are simply historical background. They essentially have nothing to do with Ramona, her life, and especially her artwork… Instead of running the photos of historical personalities virtually unrelated to Ramona, the space could have been used to show more of her artwork. Which is the reason why most of your readers are buying the magazine. My point is this: you have very limited space for visuals, in any article. Why run visuals which are (in

my opinion at least) almost totally irrelevant to the specific life and work of any creator? All of us live in a context of our historical times, amidst the events that have occured in our lives. For example, I was a high school senior when Ronald Reagan was shot and I recall vividly where I was, what I was doing, as well as recalling Frank Reynolds of ABC News becoming irate on air, when Reagan’s condition—i.e., dead or alive—could not be nailed down. But, if you were running an article on me, would it be appropriate to take up page space showing photos of Reagan or Frank Reynolds or newspaper headlines from that event in 1981? I don’t think it would be appropriate, as it is only a historical backdrop, experienced in the mass by millions of people. I love your magazine Jon, but would like to see more visual goodies about the creators and their actual work, and less historical “backdrop.” [First, many thanks for your continued support and for your love of CBC, and I appreciate you taking the time to write again, Ben. As far as the contextual imagery, I have been known for spending a good deal of time examining a subject’s early, formative years, which often can’t be represented by creative work and frequently no personal items are made available, so I need to made due as best I can to keep the visuals chugging alongside the narrative. The selection of occasionally thinly-connected visuals are obviously all mine, but there’s still some context there, Ben, whether I’m illustrating the fact that Mike Gold was the public relations guy for the Chicago Seven (and organizer of their fundraising underground comic book) or because Del Close of the Second City comedy troupe—mentioned by Mike therein—did have his own DC Comics series, Wasteland, which he co-wrote with fellow Chicagoian John Ostrander. As for being political, believe you me, I’m hardly overt in my own strongly-held beliefs within the pages of CBC, though my passionate convictions—which hardly include admiring commies—is apt to seep through from time to time. America! What a country!— Y.E.]

Andy Ice I rarely, if ever, send comments, but have to say that the Joe Sinnott memorial [in CBC #27] is the most informative, entertaining, and moving tribute I’ve ever read in a TwoMorrows magazine, and I’ve read them all. Ten pages and to be continued…!

AndrewSteven Damsits Just finished CBC #28. Actually started reading at 7:30 last night and finished it 4:30 this morning! After a solid two hours of sleep I’m ready to face the day… groan. That Steve Bissette can talk! Your transcriber must have blisters on his fingers. While not the world’s biggest Bissette art fan, I certainly enjoy the words that come out of his mouth. I believe my all time favorite issue of The Comics Journal is the Steve Bissette issue you have pictured. Holy crap! Talk about telling tales out of school… And who doesn’t from time to time enjoy a peek behind the curtain ? Well, you’ve supplied a worthy successor—a most enjoyable read indeed. And with age comes wisdom (to hopefully most of us—LOL) and Steve’s aged quite nicely. Loved the chat about Heroes World days. Man, those catalogs came fast and furious to the old childhood mailbox. Magical daze! I still have them all, probably 20 or so all told; got to dig ’em out and stroll down memory lane once more… I’m glad to hear your surgery went well. Stay well brother! We need you! [Thanks, Andy and Andrew. (Mr. Damsits has been a supportive chum since the CBA days.) Y.E. had the pleasure of visiting Marc Svensson in the Bay State in April, a pal with whom I’ve been working on an Arnold Drake retrospective together, coming soon to CBC!—Y.E.] #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

writer in progress

The Bloody Red Baron Catching up with the projects and process of veteran comics writer Mike Baron by MIKE BARON as shared with GREG BIGA

Florida Man TM & © Mike Baron & Todd Mulrooney. Biker TM & © Mike Baron.

[Mike Baron is an author in rare air. He transitioned from a Wisconsin newspaper reporter to being one of the premier independent comic book creators in the medium’s history. The teaming of Baron and Steve Rude on Nexus remains a high point in creator-owned character successes. Mike’s other triumph, Badger, is a character that remains, decades later, almost immediately associated with the writer. Baron translated that success into working for DC and Marvel comics where he created highly regarded runs with The Flash and Punisher, respectively, as he readied to transition into the world of novels. His Biker books, starring the character Josh Pratt, are now ten novels deep into that series. Regardless of his success, Mike never left behind his love of comics storytelling, nor his independent roots. Recently, he took the time to share some barbeque as well as his thoughts about narrative writing and his current (and near future) project plans.—G.B.] How Baron Did It Before My methods have changed over the years. When I started out writing comics, I’d draw the page out by hand on a legal pad. And, by that I mean, a portrait-shaped rectangle. And then I would divide it up into panels. I would start with the first panel and I’d think, “Well, what would grab the reader’s attention? What’s compelling?” That’s how I created Nexus. I thought, ‘“What if somebody died every time the protagonist showed up—that’s dramatic!” But I didn’t want him to be a remorseless killer, so I created this backstory where he was a reluctant executioner of mass murderers because an insane alien had chosen him as the conscience of his race. He had no say in the matter, because the alien was much more powerful. I was always in mind of a splash page. I would sometimes devote the first page entirely to a single image. I rarely do that anymore. Aside from a splash page where it’s legit, there are very few instances that deserve a full-page reveal. When you devote a single image to a page the story stops, it doesn’t advance; it stops. It stops, so you can admire the artist’s gift. And whenever I think of this, I always think of Bernie Wrightson’s werewolf in the original run of Swamp Thing. That just sticks in mind. Everybody remembers that, and it’s a great werewolf. And, God knows, there’s a lot of werewolves in comics; they’re a popular genre. By drawing each page out by hand, and proceeding, without an outline, like an inchworm from panel to panel, it forced me to think what happens next. That’s the essential question in all fiction: the reader has to care what happens next or he won’t turn the page. It makes you think. How do I advance the story? How do I make it interesting? I proceed cautiously, although sometimes in a great hurry. Because back in those days, I was doing a great amount of drugs, a lot of cocaine. I’d snort a line of cocaine and rip through a story. I haven’t done that sh*t in years, not in decades, and I will never do it again. In fact, it gives me the heebie-jeebies just thinking about it. I’m glad I quit when I did. I never outlined. I get an idea in my head and I have the story structure in my head. And, by that I mean, that a story is a dynamic narrative with a beginning, a middle, COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

and an end. And, by dynamic, I mean that the situation is often shifting—the hero is up, the hero is down. Because if the hero was perfectly satisfied with his life, he’s got an ideal life, and nothing goes wrong, what are you left with? Well, you can be left with a compelling narrative voice and beautiful use of language. But it’s gonna lack the excitement of the hero’s journey or struggle. Because in the best stories, the protagonist changes over the course of the story, to adapt to the challenges that face him as part of the hero’s journey. There are more books on writing than any man can possibly read in his lifetime. And many of them are very good. But there’s really only one essential book on writing, and that’s Elements of Style, by Strunk and White, and it can be read in one hour. For those who want to write, I can’t recommend that book too highly. It’s nuts-and-bolts stuff. And it really helped me and helps everyone.” How Baron Does It Now My methods have changed over the years. Now I outline everything but a short story. If it’s going to be a comic book series, I outline it. If it’s a novel, I outline it. I always start with that outline. I start the outline by making notes in a legal pad. Anything having to do with the story, the protagonist’s appearance, his station in life, the civilization or lack of civilization in which he lives, changes that are being forced upon him. Another thing about writing is how do you hold the reader’s interest? You use every trick in the book, and there is an infinite number of ways to hold that interest. I’ve kind of chopped that up into a few categories, which are, by no means, complete, but they’re an example. And the first one is you create a compelling character. Somebody who is so fascinating people can’t wait to find out what he does next. And to me, the archetypal example is Sherlock Holmes, created in the 19th century. Today, he is bigger than ever. There are more Sherlock Holmes novels being published today than in Conan Doyle’s day. I bet most people don’t know that Kareem Abdul Jabbar has written three Mycroft Holmes novels. I was in the bookstore the other day. I’m a huge fan of Robert Harris, who wrote Pompeii and a series on Cicero, and many other books have been made into movies, most recently his book,

Above: Promotional portrait of writer Mike Baron created for his Florida Man graphic novel series, rendered by artist Todd Mulrooney (with a backdrop nod to Baron’s most famous creation, Nexus). Below: Cover for the first volume of Baron’s Biker prose novel series, published by Wolfpack Publishing.

Above: Promo for SRB’s web lecture series. Below: CCS announcement regarding SRB leaving the Vermont school.

Above: Never one to shy away from wearing his political sentiments as a badge of pride, Mike Baron alludes to the Black Lives Matter protests of 2020 with his response: Thin Blue Line, a graphic novel about police officers under attack in an unnamed city. Pencils are by active-duty policeman Joseph Arnold, inks by Jeff Siemons. Next page: Cover art by Pat Broderick for his and Baron’s self-published “weird western” graphic novel, Bronze Star. Below: Thin Blue Line caught the attention of right-wing media, including the news program, Fox & Friends, where Baron appeared last winter.

At the other end of the spectrum is Michael Chabon, who wrote The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay. Chabon is an architect of words and he does not write short staccato sentences. He probably uses the whole dictionary and some others. I mean, the words in his vocabulary are vast. He has a chapter in Telegraph Avenue that’s 5,000 words long and it’s one sentence. It never flags and it holds your interest throughout. It’s about a parrot escaping from its cage and flying around the neighborhood. Now, I haven’t kept up with Chabon. And in fact, my reading has suffered of late as I’ve been watching too many web series, but I’m reading right now. I’m reading a guy named Jack Carr, who’s a former Navy SEAL, who’s probably the most authentic thriller writer I’ve ever read. And he’s got a series in the works, starring Chris Pratt, as his protagonist, James Reese. And the first book is The Terminal List. It’s about how James Reese was in Afghanistan, with his squad when they were all wiped out in a surprise attack. He later learns that the jihadists who attack them were tipped off by his handlers back at the CIA in the United States, because they were trying to wipe out all proof of this medical experiment they subjected the soldiers to against their own knowledge. It’s a terrific thriller. I’m working my way through the second one now. It’s taken far too long. But he’s a writer I admire. Next up with Thin Blue Line and the Wild West [Baron has returned to personal ownership of his work. Like many lifelong creators, Mike has gone to crowd-sourcing his work to make certain his voice and characters go to print unimpeded by an editor. In this current foray into creation, he has partnered himself with highly-regarded pros, as well as some new talents to the industry.—G.B.] We’re about to send Thin Blue Line to the printers. It’s going to be delayed until probably May or June before we ship and the only reason for the delay is because of these paper shortages, which are completely unnecessary and are caused by government. If we were allowed to grow [hemp] for paper, in one acre, you can raise an annual crop every year that a forest will produce once every 20 years. In fact, I wrote a comic for a friend of mine. It’s called Smokes the Fox, and it’s about a dope-smoking fox that escaped from was a government laboratory. And my friend, Justin, considered printing it on hemp. The Thin Blue Line is heterodox. I find that most of my stories are heterodox. And, by that I mean, they go against the current wisdom, the current approved groupthink. My crime was to show police as heroes. And one of the reasons I did this is because I know a number of police and every one of them that I know is a good person who joined the force to be a positive force in their community. Which brings us to this second and very important rule of storytelling, which is: show, don’t tell. We got the story out in a variety of publications, including The Federalist, Hollywood in Toto, Front Page Mag, and Police Daily. I was interviewed by the National Police Association, and then, one Saturday afternoon, I got a call from Fox News and they said, “We’d like you to appear on Fox and Friends tomorrow to talk about your book, Thin Blue Line.” So, I did that, and then the campaign blew up, and we were very gratified. We weren’t thinking of a sequel. I should mention that my artist, Joe Arnold, is a full-time police officer. I’ve known Joe, long before he became a cop. He was always a comic book guy, he was always drawing, and he knocked it out of the park. He finished it faster than many professional artists who do nothing but draw. We are thinking about a sequel now. But I promise you that the sequel is going to be a lot more mystery and a lot less rioting in the streets, which is what Thin Blue Line is about. It’s about to two police officers trying to survive the night in a riot torn city. Which could be Minneapolis, could be Chicago, or Portland, or Seattle. It could be any of those cities. It’s a city I made up. #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Thin Blue Line TM & © Mike Baron & Joseph Arnold.

Munich, about a futile effort to stave off World War II, It’s on Netflix. It’s called The Edge of War, and it’s excellent. I saw this book called A Study in Crimson: Sherlock Holmes, by Robert Harris. I bought it, took it home, and then I saw that it was Robert H. Harris and not Robert Harris. However, it’s a good book, if you like that sort of thing. It was written in the fustian language of Dr. Watson, where a little goes a long way. A lot of people could mimic that very effectively. I could never do it because I have a voice. I have to write in that voice. I’m not one of those chameleons who could write a 19th century novel in a 19th century style, Well, you never know until you try it, and I’ve tried a couple of times, it doesn’t work for me. Number two is a compelling situation. Jurassic Park pops to mind. That’s a compelling situation. For a whole bunch of reasons. It pushes so many buttons because children love dinosaurs. The idea of cloning these monsters in the present day and having people interact with them…well, what could go wrong? Well, everything goes wrong, and that’s why people flocked to the movies. So, you have compelling character, a compelling situation, and you can have a seductive narrative voice. That means the writer has such a unique style that you can’t get enough. It pushes the dopamine buttons for whatever reason. One example is James Ellroy: he is a modern crime novelist who wrote L.A. Confidential, which most people have seen. It’s a wonderful modern noir. His The Big Nowhere is another brilliant novel. And the thing about Ellroy is you can’t copy his style. Nobody can do it, but Ellroy and that’s because he writes like a machine gun. (Ellroy, I think, has written himself into a corner because his books are so Byzantine in plots. It’s so labyrinth a thing that you have to take notes the whole way through to understand what’s going on, and when he pulls it all together in the end, it’s like a Rube Goldberg contraption. You can build a simple clock with a spring or two or you could build a clock with 2000 moving parts, and that’s what Ellroy does.)

Bronze Star TM & © Mike Baron & Pat Broderick.

The next project is a complete change of pace. It’s a Western I’m doing with Pat Broderick called Bronze Star. It’s the greatest work of Pat’s life. It’s unbelievable, the work he’s doing! I’ve been showing some pages on Twitter. And, if you want to take a look, I’m @BloodyRedBaron on Twitter. Pat’s got a bunch of pages up on his Facebook page, so you can see them there. Pat Broderick is John Severin’s rightful heir. The work is stunning. It’s a supernatural Western. It has supernatural elements, but within the context of the story, they’re credible. You’re going to follow it every step of the way. It’s one of the things I do with the stories, every part has to be interesting. You can’t have any dead parts in the story, especially not in a comic book. There’s no excuse for it. So that means that every panel and every word has to contribute to the story and contribute to that question, “What happens next?” People are going to love this story. We’re working on a book called Private American. Some people have complained over the direction Captain America has taken and the new direction Punisher has taken. This is not a response to that. This is more of how I would approach those characters. In my mind, there’s no question what Captain America or Punisher would be doing right now. They’d be on the Southern border, stopping child molesters and coyotes and smugglers from bringing fentanyl in and terrorists from crossing the border. And that’s how that story starts. Richard Bonk is my artist on that he’s a terrific artist. He’s drawn a Nexus graphic novel that Dark Horse will publish next year. And he’s steaming through this thing. Past that, we’re looking at Florida Man graphic novel number two. And the only purpose of the Florida Man graphic novel is to make you spit up milk through your nose. We’re trying to make you burst out laughing. The next one is going to do it. People are not going to believe when we show them the comic, and they’re gonna laugh out loud. If you want to know what these are about, I have three Florida Man novels out from Wolf Pack. They’re up on Amazon. Just go to Amazon and type in “Mike Baron,” and most of my stuff pops up. This Florida Man is called Hogzilla. Which gives you an indication of what it’s about. And Florida Man 3: Catfish Calling, which is about a giant catfish. What else? The giant Mekong Delta catfish is the world’s largest catfish, at over 800 pounds. Those catfish are not native to the West. Beyond that, I’m working on a number of projects. One of them is a comic called 2084, which was commissioned by a man in Austria, who was concerned about the way the world is going—and I’m concerned about the way the world is going, too. It’s really about everything that’s happening right now. With government gathering more and more power, and trying to control everybody’s lives, except it has this science fiction twist, in that, 60 years in the future, there are powerful telepaths and telekinetics who can do amazing things with their minds. Most of them have been hired up by the big corporations who rule the world, but a handful of rebels, calling themselves sonic disruptors, have broken away and vowed to bring down this world government because, in the future, it is one world government. That’s what they call The Great Reset. We’re working on a reboot of Cobalt Blue, with Mike Gustovich. I have two stories in Giant-Size Two-Fisted Manly Tales. The first one is being illustrated by Butch Guice. Butch and I worked on Flash 30 years ago. And now Butch and I are working again. I also recently completed my run on The Saints, for Allegiance Arts, about a secret group of archaeologists who have banded together to protect the world’s most endangered archaeological site, from looting and vandalism. As you recall, when the Taliban invaded Afghanistan, they blew up a number of ancient Hindu temples that have been carved out of the rock that were priceless and irreplaceable historical relics. And that’s one of the things the Saints are fighting against. The artist, Christian Rosado, is stunning. You won’t believe his artwork. They recently shipped The Saints graphic novel, which combines the first two issues. And I think they’re also still available if you go to allegiance arts.com. And the rest of the books will follow sometime this summer and into the fall. Allegiance Arts is distributed at Walmart. So, you can find them at Walmart and you can also buy them directly from the publisher. I’m also working on a military science fiction novel with Major Digs Brown, who did two tours of duty in Afghanistan. The military tactics and strategies in there are as authentic as it gets. And we’re excited about that and Wolf Pack just published my ninth Biker novel. The Biker series is hard-boiled crime noir. Josh Craft is a reformed motorcyclist who then went to prison, found God, got out, and was determined to turn his life around. Hard-boiled crime. If you like Levon Cade or Jack Reacher, you’re going to like this. I’m working on the tenth novel now. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

These are unforgettable, and highly entertaining stories. You’ll want to read them again. I haven’t had much out there in the past 10 years. And that’s fine, because during that time I was becoming a better writer. There are books I wrote 30 years ago that I wish I could go back and erase from the memory pool. I could have done better. It just doesn’t stop people from coming up to me and telling me how much they love them. I’m glad and I never say, “Oh, I don’t think that was very good”. I would never say that to them. But those books are out there. Within the past five years that hasn’t happened because my philosophy now is I don’t let a story leave the house unless it’s a home run. I take my time on these scripts. When I finish the script, it’s a good rule of thumb, to never mail it off the day you finish it. You always let it sit at least 24 hours and take a look at it with fresh eyes. Every time I go over a script I’ll find something I can change that makes it better. I have a number of tutorials up on my YouTube channel. (https://youtu. be/D8CgJE76rhM) I’ve posted on the Mike Baron channel a tutorial on how to make a comic and I discussed some of my methods there. I’ve also done one on how to write a novel. We have a YouTube channel that is very easy to find: The Baron Earls Show. Every week we interview a different comic luminary. So far we’ve interviewed Kelley Jones, Rags Morales, Bob Layton, Barbara Calder, Barry McLean Jr., Criss Cross, Jim Kruger, Steve Rude… I can’t remember all the people we’ve interviewed. We have about two dozen interviews up and people who watch it are addicted. So please take a look at that and subscribe. Those interviews are very compelling. And you’ll learn things you never knew before about your favorite artists and writers. [It would be easy, so many years into a highly regarded career, for Mike Baron to rest on his laurels and simply take in fans at conventions. Rather than that, he has committed to providing online commentary and teaching tools to hopeful pros. That, in addition to his never-ending stream of original work, is part of his active and living legacy.—G.B.] 33

COMIC BOOK CREATOR #12

JACK KIRBY’s mid-life work examined, from Fantastic Four and Thor at Marvel in the middle ’60s to the Fourth World at DC (including the real-life background drama that unfolded during that tumultuous era)! Plus a career-spanning interview with underground comix pioneer HOWARD CRUSE, the extraordinary cartoonist and graphic novelist of the award-winning Stuck Rubber Baby! Cover by STEVE RUDE! (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $8.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99

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Comprehensive KELLEY JONES interview, from early years as Marvel inker to present-day greatness at DC depicting BATMAN, DEADMAN, and SWAMP THING (chockful of rarely-seen artwork)! Plus WILL MURRAY examines the nefarious legacy of Batman co-creator BOB KANE in an investigation into tragic ghosts and rapacious greed. We also look at RAINA TELGEMEIER and her magnificent army of devotees, and more!

Celebrating 30 years of artist’s artist MARK SCHULTZ, creator of the CADILLACS AND DINOSAURS franchise, with a feature-length, career-spanning interview conducted in Mark’s Pennsylvanian home, examining the early years of struggle, success with Kitchen Sink Press, and hitting it big with a Saturday morning cartoon series. Includes rarely-seen art and fascinating photos from Mark’s amazing and award-winning career.

A look at 75 years of Archie Comics’ characters and titles, from Archie and his pals ‘n gals to the mighty MLJ heroes of yesteryear and today’s “Dark Circle”! Also: Careerspanning interviews with The Fox’s DEAN HASPIEL and Kevin Keller’s cartoonist DAN PARENT, who both jam on our exclusive cover depicting a face-off between humor and heroes. Plus our usual features, including the hilarious FRED HEMBECK!

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Career-spanning discussion with STEVE “THE DUDE” RUDE, as he shares his reallife psychological struggles, the challenges of freelance subsistence, and his creative aspirations. Also: The jungle art of NEAL ADAMS, MARY FLEENER on her forthcoming graphic novel Billie the Bee and her comix career, RICH BUCKLER interview Part Three, Golden Age artist FRANK BORTH, HEMBECK and more!

NOT YOUR AVERAGE JOES! Interview with JOSEPH MICHAEL LINSNER (CRY FOR DAWN, VAMPIRELLA), a chat with JOE SINNOTT about his Marvel years inking Jack Kirby and work at TREASURE CHEST, JOE JUSKO discusses the Marvel Age of Comics and his fabulous “Corner Box Collection,” plus the artists behind the Topps bubble gum BAZOOKA JOE comic strips, CRAIG YOE, and more!

ERIC POWELL celebrates 20 years of THE GOON! with a career-spanning interview and a gallery of rare artwork. Plus CBC editor and author JON B. COOKE on his new retrospective THE BOOK OF WEIRDO, a new interview with R. CRUMB about his work on that legendary humor comics anthology, JOHN ROMITA SR. on his admiration for the work of MILTON CANIFF, and more!

P. CRAIG RUSSELL career-spanning interview (complete with photos and art gallery), an almost completely unknown work by FRANK QUITELY (artist on All-Star Superman and The Authority), DERF BACKDERF’s forthcoming graphic novel commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Kent State shootings, CAROL TYLER shares her prolific career, JOE SINNOTT discusses his Treasure Chest work, CRAIG YOE, and more!

WENDY PINI discusses her days as Red Sonja cosplayer, & 40+ years of ELFQUEST! Plus RICHARD PINI on their 48-year marriage and creative partnership! Plus: We have the final installment of our CRAIG YOE interview! GIL KANE’s business partner LARRY KOSTER talks about their adventures together! PABLO MARCOS on his Marvel horror work, HEMBECK, and more! Cover by WENDY PINI.

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TIMOTHY TRUMAN discusses his start at the Kubert School, Grimjack with writer JOHN OSTRANDER, and current collaborations with son Benjamin. SCOTT SHAW! talks about early San Diego Comic-Cons and friendship with JACK KIRBY, Captain Carrot, and Flintstones work! Also PATRICK McDONNELL’s favorite MUTTS comic book pastiches, letterer JANICE CHIANG profiled, HEMBECK, and more! TIM TRUMAN cover.

BARRY WINDSOR-SMITH discusses his new graphic novel MONSTERS, its origin as a 1980s Hulk story, and its evolution into his 300-page magnum opus (includes a gallery of outtakes). Plus part two of our SCOTT SHAW! interview about HannaBarbera licensing material and work with ROY THOMAS on Captain Carrot, KEN MEYER, JR. looks at the great fanzines of 40 years ago, HEMBECK, and more!

Career-spanning interview with TERRY DODSON, and Terry’s wife (and go-to inker) RACHEL DODSON! Plus 1970s/’80s portfolio producer SAL QUARTUCCIO talks about his achievements with Phase and Hot Stuf’, R. CRUMB and DENIS KITCHEN discuss the history of underground comix character Pro Junior, WILL EISNER’s Valentines to his wife, HEMBECK, and more!

Extensive PAUL GULACY retrospective by GREG BIGA that includes Paul himself, VAL MAYERIK, P. CRAIG RUSSELL, TIM TRUMAN, ROY THOMAS, and others. Plus a JOE SINNOTT MEMORIAL; BUD PLANT discusses his career as underground comix retailer, distributor, fledgling publisher of JACK KATZ’s FIRST KINGDOM, and mail-order bookseller; our regular columnists, and the latest from HEMBECK!

STEVE BISSETTE career-spanning interview, from his Joe Kubert School days, Swamp Thing stint, publisher of Taboo and Tyrant, creator rights crusader, and more. Also, Part One of our MIKE GOLD interview on his Chicago youth, start in underground comix, and arrival at DC Comics, right in time for the implosion! Plus BUD PLANT on his publishing days, comic shop owner, and start in mail order—and all the usual fun stuff!

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The forerunner to COMIC BOOK CREATOR, COMIC BOOK ARTIST is the 20002004 Eisner Award winner for BEST COMICS-RELATED MAG! Edited by COMIC BOOK CREATOR’s JON B. COOKE, it features in-depth articles, interviews, and unseen art, celebrating the lives and careers of the great comics artists from the 1970s to today.

CBA BULLPEN COLLECTING THE UNKOWN ISSUES OF COMIC BOOK ARTIST!

COMIC BOOK ARTIST BULLPEN collects all seven issues of the little-seen labor of love fanzine published in the early 2000s by JON B. COOKE (editor of today’s COMIC BOOK CREATOR magazine), just after the original CBA ended its TwoMorrows run. Featured are in-depth interviews with some of comics’ major league players, including GEORGE TUSKA, FRED HEMBECK, TERRY BEATTY, and FRANK BOLLE—and an amazing all-star tribute to Silver Age great JACK ABEL by the Marvel Comics Bullpen and others. That previously unpublished all-comics Abel appreciation (assembled by RICK PARKER) includes strips by JOE KUBERT, WALTER SIMONSON, KYLE BAKER, MARIE SEVERIN, GRAY MORROW, ALAN WEISS, SERGIO ARAGONÉS, MORT TODD, DICK AYERS, and many more! Plus a new bonus feature on JACK KIRBY’s unknown 1960s baseball card art, and a 16-page bonus full-color section, all behind a Jack Kirby cover! (176-page trade paperback with COLOR) $24.95 • (Digital Edition) $8.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-105-9 • NOW SHIPPING!

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NEAL ADAMS/ALEX ROSS cover and interviews with both, history of “Arcade, The Comics Revue” with underground legends CRUMB, SPIEGELMAN, and GRIFFITH, MICHAEL MOORCOCK on comic book adaptations of his work, CRAIG THOMPSON sketchbook, and more!

Exhaustive FRANK CHO interview and sketchbook gallery, ALEX ROSS sketchbook section of never-before-seen pencils, MIKE FRIEDRICH on the history of Star*Reach, plus animator J.J. SEDELMAIER on his Ambiguously Gay Duo and The X-Presidents cartoons for Saturday Night Live.

Interview with DARWYN COOKE and a gallery of rarely-seen and unpublished artwork, a chat with DC Comics art director MARK CHIARELLO, an exploration of The Adventures of Little Archie with creator BOB BOLLING and artist DEXTER TAYLOR, new JAY STEPHENS sketchbook section, and more!

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HOWARD CHAYKIN interview and gallery of unpublished artwork, a look at the ’70s black-&-white mags published by Skywald, tribute to Psycho and Nightmare writer/editor ALAN HEWETSON, LEAH MOORE & JOHN REPPION on Wild Girl, a SONNY LIEW sketchbook section, and more!

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once upon a long ago

EC for Me, See?

Steven Thompson’s horrific descent from innocent reader to rabid EC fan addict! by STEVEN THOMPSON

Above: Alan Light’s Flashback 1: Wood and EC publication reprinting the artist’s science fiction tales from the early ’50s.

Inset right: The Monster Times #10 [May 1972], the bi-weekly tabloid’s special EC Comics ish.

Below: EC Lives! The 1972 E.C. Fan-Addict Convention Book, a souvenir of the New York show.

Warren mags, I discovered E.C. veterans Reed Crandall, who was too good to be drawing comics, the expert noir of Johnny Craig, and, of course, even more Wally Wood! In 1972, Tales from the Crypt, the movie arrived, and I caught it on opening weekend. It got some good coverage in the monster mags, most particularly The Monster Times, which devoted a special issue and wrote not only about the movie but also the horror comic books on which it was based. That same year, the E.C. Fan-Addict Convention was held in New York City, reuniting nearly every one of the writers, artists, and editors from the “bad old days.” At 13, I couldn’t go, but I did order a copy of the souvenir book that accompanied the event. Over the next few years, I devoured Frank Jacobs’ book on E.C. publisher Bill Gaines, subscribed to the East Coast Comix four-color reprints of E.C.s, picked up the many E.C.-inspired underground comix, and eagerly looked for E.C.-related art and articles in various fanzines. Meanwhile, Russ Cochran had begun publishing box sets reprinting complete E.C. runs. He was offering single volume samples and I thought I’d try one of the two E.C. war comics I had heard so much about. That was enough. Over the next few years, now that I was grown up and working, I would purchase the complete sets of all the New Trend titles, stopping finally at MAD, which was where I came in. In 1996, my son was born. As he learned to read early, I told him he could read any books in our library and his favorite books growing up were the Cochran science fiction and horror sets. Ahh, a chip off the old chopping block. #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

E.C. Comics TM & © William M. Gaines, Agent, Inc.

As a kid, I never liked scary comics, not that there were very many around. Sure, I saw Creepy and Eerie, but those were for grown-ups. And I saw those gory, over-the-top Myron Fass mag covers, but… ugh! I think I actually cried when DC canceled “Dial H for Hero” and put actual mysterious stories in House of Mystery. How could they? Now I liked scary movies! Here in the Cincinnati area, we had our hip horror host on TV—the Cool Ghoul—and I even got to meet him in person once. And I can’t begin to explain the major influence that FJA’s Famous Monsters mag was on me! It was in the pages of FM where I first heard of E.C. Comics. To be precise, it was in the ads for the 1971 Nostalgia Press volume, Horror Comics of the 1950s, these days known to E.C. Fan-Addicts as “the Big Book.” Never saw a copy of it, though, so my ignorance remained a bit longer. Unbeknownst to me, I had actually read some E.C. stories already! My friend Greg always had copies of MAD around his house as early as 1965. I had flipped through a few issues, but again, too adult for me to understand. But, one day, in 1969, when I was 10, I was shopping with my mother when I spotted the hippie cover of the latest edition of The MAD Reader. I opened it up and saw “Superduperman”… and by Wally Wood, yet! I knew him from Daredevil, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents, and Captain Action! I hadn’t brought any money, but I begged my mother to buy it for me and she did. This book wasn’t at all like any issues of MAD I had seen. Next time I was at Woolworth’s, I flipped through all their MAD paperbacks and found that some were very different than others. Over the next few months, I bought all the ones I could find with the comic book and strip parodies. Little by little, I was on my way to becoming a huge Harvey Kurtzman fan and I didn’t even know the man’s name yet! Wallace Wood had been a favorite of mine for years. I taught myself to draw from copying Wood even more than Kirby. My first exposure to actual E.C. comics stories came when I ordered Alan Light’s Flashback #1, a thin fanzine reprinting a few E.C. science fiction stories by Wood in muddy black-&white scans. Not the best place to start, I suppose, but you know… beggars? Choosers. As my interest in horror comics piqued around the same time as my interest in girls, I had begun buying Vampirella, which led me finally to Creepy and Eerie, as well. In the pages of the

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

All characters TM & © DC Comics. COLORS BY GLENN WHITMORE.

An Afternoon with Comic Books’ Warrior of Words

Of course, many concepts and characters in Don’s storyline, “Panther’s Rage,” were prominently used in the $1.3 billion blockbuster, Black Panther, as much a cultural phenomenon in 2018 as it was a super-hero movie. I’d hardly be surprised if his Killraven or Sabre sagas became equally successful when their motion pictures are finally made. On a personal note, I confess that I have great affection for Don and rank him among my favorite people. He is authentic, honest, sensitive, kind, and, best of all, an engaging and tremendously talented storyteller. This feature is long in coming, one that I promised Don years ago that we’d do together. So, after delays due to respective struggles with Covid-19 (both of our households are now fine), I traveled to Don’s small, unassuming abode, only 20 miles away, and we started chatting on his back porch.—JBC #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Black Panther TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Frank Plowright was correct to say that Donald Francis McGregor’s 1970s work deserved credit for the writer’s attempt to “inject a poetry into Marvel material…” And so too did Don imbue his characters and his stories with a depth of humanity not often encountered in comic books of that era, tales that also showcased the scribe’s rarefied courage to challenge social norms. While common today, it was unprecedented for a mainstream writer of that time to include gay characters (in love, no less!), interracial romance, and even an all-Black cast in any American comic book. Before there was Alan Moore and prior to Neil Gaiman, there was Don McGregor (and, truth be told, there’s another writer often mentioned in the same breath, the late Steve Gerber).

Killraven TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Interview conducted by Jon B. Cooke • Transcribed by Tom Pairan Comic Book Creator: What a prestigious appearance for your stories to come out along with Steve Ditko’s Spider-Man and Jack Kirby’s Captain America, there’s Don McGregor’s Black Panther! Don McGregor: You know the fact that Penguin Random House put that in with the top three classic Marvel Comics series… If you had told any of the people in editorial between 1973 and ’76, they would have gone, “Are you out of your f*cking minds?! Wha— ? This is terrible! We hate this stuff!” Because there really were about three people in the business at the time that I can tell you liked those books. And that was Jim Salicrup, Dave Kraft, and John David Warner. They’re the only three that I can think of who actually were like, “Man, I love what you’re doing. I don’t know where it’s going. Every time I read a new book, it means something.” And they would actually have a passion or enthusiasm. One of the neat things is the fact that I managed to live long enough for these books to get rediscovered. And let’s face it, Jon, they’re 40 years old! They could have been negatively received… And I was very fortunate that so many people who obviously were not even aware these books existed for four decades, are now are experiencing them… Probably they weren’t regular comic readers and didn’t realize this kind of material could exist in a super-hero comic, and have reacted so positively to it. So, for all of the endurance it took to do a “Panther’s Rage,” because that was two-and-a-half years of intensely creating it from my initial ideas into finished reality. Think of it this way, Jon, as if you’re running a race, a marathon, and the finish line is an impossibly long ways away, and all that time you’re running, you have to keep blinders on so the finish line stays in focus, that your original intent on why you undertook to write this is not lost. It was a constant commitment not to be side-tracked from the reasons I saw in my head when I started it. Not letting voices positive or negative blur COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

what I hoped I could achieve when the last words written at the finish line. There’s a sense that you get to the other side and the books are being very positively reviewed and certainly remembered by the fans. I don’t want to disregard in that time frame the people who were reading the books. Thank God they were there, Jon, because it was a very stand-alone position to be in, and there was a lot of negative reaction to it, especially with the race stuff. And even now, if I’m doing interviews with somebody like you, it’s kind of what to leave in and what to leave out… Because most people don’t want to be tainted with where they were at in 1973 to 1976. On the other hand, it’s history. And because I was right in the midst of that writing about race and gender issues, that means they are certainly part of my personal concerns. And there are things I had to contend with. This country often doesn’t like to face racism, or those people who were/are racist, but listen, there’s… The way you can define pop culture in any particular point in time is not so much what’s in pop culture, but was isn’t, what you don’t see. Because that’s the stuff they don’t want to handle… Most of the time, in my experience, it’s not said out loud: “You can’t do this, you can’t do that,” but it’s still understood. You don’t see it there beforehand. I even understand where editorial often comes off. It’s like, “Well, why should we go into this area or that controversy.? It might cause complications for me.” I think, especially in that time frame, you had a lot of editors who were also writers and wanted to make their own impact in print… If there’s going to be a mark on the comics history, they wanted to make it. There was nothing in it for them to give that chance to you. Then it made it like you’re—and it should be as a writer—you’re standing alone, doing the best books you can do. That’s what I owe you, that’s what I owe the readers… and a writer owes it to them every time out. That doesn’t mean you always succeed, but… 39

Above: Penguin Books launched its Penguin Classics Marvel Collection with three compilations that included Black Panther, a testament to the groundbreaking work of Don McGregor. Previous spread: At top is Don posing for a Dragonflame promo ad, pastiching a classic National Lampoon cover. Below: Penguin Random House simultaneously released an elegant hardcover edition (with gold gilded page edges) and a trade paperback version of the Marvel books, as well.

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Don: I just put a bunch of stuff up online about Gene Colan, commemorating the loss. You know, I got really, really fortunate, Jon, to work with a lot of really terrific people. Rich Buckler cannot be understated in terms of what he got that I was able to do as a writer. Because Rich endorsed it and embraced it. Marvel editorial did not want Rich on “The Black Panther,” which just wasn’t an important enough character at that time for an artist of his caliber. And if you think I’m just saying that, he was appearing in Jungle Action! We had 13 pages an issue! So, understand as a storyteller, I was told, “You’re going to have 13 pages, every two months, to do a story about the Black Panther set in Wakanda.” That’s it! So, there were so many things to think about while I read all the books T’Challa appeared in because, in those days, you could read every single Black Panther appearance that there was. And I realized almost immediately that it was going to have to be a novel. Not because I was trying to break ground with it… I know some people say that it is Marvel’s first graphic novel. Maybe it is. People like yourself would probably know better than me. The purpose of it was, I thought, “Well, I’ve got 13 pages and if every 13 pages for two months, I gotta invent a new villain.” I thought, “Well, after about three issues, people are going to go, ‘Well, T’Challa, you should have stayed back in America teaching school in Harlem.’” How dumb was that? So I thought, “It’s gotta be connected. If it’s not connected, it’s not gonna work.” And that’s when I started working on the themes of what the book would be about, but I also realized that you’re going to be off the stands for two months. So, as I was developing the characters, I realized if you wrote a character out for one issue, that’s four months that the readers don’t see that character. Write them out for two issues, that’s half-a-year. It’s too long of a time, Jon, to ask the audience to get emotionally invested in these characters. So I was very conscious at the time, thinking, “This needs to be here.” I remember when Craig [Russell] first took over doing “Killraven”… “Killraven” was another where you had a multiple cast of characters, and I said to Craig, “Every character has to have a moment because, if you don’t…” In the first issue Craig drew, I needed to have Old Skull in there and I actually drew my Old Skull and I think Jack Abel inked it… But I needed to have this character in there, because I realized I wanted readers to be invested in that character and I CBC: That was one of the most appealing aspects of it. couldn’t have him offstage for that long of time. So that was Getting your stories (chapters, really) issue by issue—you part of the consideration, but I did have to promise Craig— know, getting them bi-monthly—and recognizing the effort when Craig realized I would kill characters—he said, “You you put into it… The only comparable writer at the time who gotta promise me you won’t kill Old Skull.” And I said, “I was doing anything akin to that was Steve Gerber… don’t have any plans to do so right now, Craig.” Don: Yeah. CBC: What was it, three years you were working on CBC: Steve Gerber was really pouring into the work some- “Panther’s Rage”? thing that was… I mean, maybe I think that was why your Don: “Panther’s Rage” ran for two-and-a-half years. work appealed to me so much, and you personally appeal to CBC: Forty-four years later, those stories changed Amerime so much: it’s that you’re an artist. You’re not necessarily can culture, Don… I gotta know: what was the experience an editorial-type person. of first seeing the movie? How were you treated at the Don: I’m not. premiere? Was your work up there on screen? CBC: You’re not, “You should be drawing in a certain Don: They sent us to the premiere. Listen, I developed Raway.” You’re more connected to Rich Buckler and to Billy monda [played by Angela Bassett], she’s my character, and Graham… in spirit and creativity…than most writers and she’s obviously going to be prominent in the new film [Black their assigned artists. Panther: Wakanda Forever, the world premiere of which Don has been invited to attend after we go to press]. It was a great time! Going to the film, to the premiere, and being there… I was sitting with Christopher Priest, whom I had never met until that time. Well, truthfully, I gotta tell you this story, because the storyteller in you would love this story: As you know, I have a heart condition—and whether it was because I was just doing so much stuff that day, more than I would obviously be doing in a typical day… This thing with T’Challa, going into the astral plane and you know he’s dying and everything… I start getting really severe chest pains and I’m bent over… I’m trying to lean into it and I don’t want to be obvious, because I’m surrounded by com-

Black Panther TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

ics people, and I’m thinking, “This is a scene where they are talking to T’Challa from the other world… This is going to be something if I die here!” I can see the headline: “Comic Book Legend Dies During His Character’s Death Scene.” [laughter] People would start to talk, “Did you hear about Don McGregor? Did McGregor really die when he was watching the Black Panther die in the movie?” [laughter] It eventually passed and I was okay. CBC: Thank heavens! Don: And, at the end of it, Christopher Priest said to me, “You know Don, that’s your Black Panther. You belong down there [sitting with the film’s stars and director]. You don’t belong up here with us peons. You belong down there.” I said, “You don’t understand, Christopher. I’d rather be up here with you guys.” But the fact that a man of Christopher Priest’s talents and such would feel that way… That’s one of the things that stays the most with me. That was a great moment. Those are the kind of things I think as a storyteller to have another really good storyteller tell you that. You know, the fact that Dwayne McDuffie… Dwayne McDuffie writing… [pauses] I don’t know if you’ve read his “Panther’s Rage” essay [“Our Heroes: African-American Artists and Images in the American Comic Book,” Black Ink: African American Cartoonists Showcase, 1992, exhibit catalog, published by the Cartoon Art Museum of San Francisco], but the first time I’ve ever read it… He wrote a shorter version of it… When I was doing the [Marvel Masterworks: The Black Panther Vol. 1, 2010], I asked if that it would be possible to use it in the Masterworks. Dwayne said, “Yeah, but I gotta rewrite it.” And I said, “No, it’s fine.” And he said, “No, I wrote about other writers…” And I said, “Dwayne, it’s fine the way it is.” “I’ll let you do it, Don, but you gotta let me rewrite it.” So I had not read what he wrote until the book came out. And the book came out the day my daughter, Lauren, was coming into Penn Station with her family. So normally I wouldn’t be going into Manhattan, but I stopped by the comic book store on 40th Street. And the book is in, but it’s wrapped in plastic. It’s all encased. So I was the author, but I have to buy my own book! And I’m walking down toward Penn Station reading Dwayne McDuffie’s afterword and I started to cry, because Dwayne was so special to me. [long pause] Those stories meant so much to him and to his life… That was important to me… I felt like I had a positive impact for some people. As a storyteller, I think that’s part of what you hope you can achieve, but it’s in the hands of the gods until it gets out there and to the individual people who are going to respond. CBC: I just think it was integral to my development in my teen years, really that you infused stories with a humanity not found in many comics. As you say, you were working long form, so there was serious story development, even if the chapters were short. As I’ve told you repeatedly, Don, I had a pile of well-read Jungle Action issues (still do!) and I would loan them out to classmates: “Please, just read them! Read them!” Taking them all in in one fell swoop, it’s a heck of an experience… You gotta stay up all night to read them, of course. To have the revelation that, in my hobby, in my obsession, in my world of comics, there was somebody like this who felt like me… You’re a remarkably perceptive writer able to convey tenderness, nuances of emotion, of love, and quiet moments, as well as rage and vengeance… It transcended genre. (I’m going on too long here…) Don: Part of it was, Jon, when I got to New York, working on staff at Marvel—and this is naivete on my part—I really believed that the Marvel Bullpen would be like it was in the Marvel Bullpen Bulletin pages. And, you know, often times it was just like so many other places…. There were power plays like in any office environment. You could be stabbed in the back if you weren’t there to protect yourself. Especially if it was going to achieve someone getting one place to another higher position. A lot of writers saying, “I am trying to get a book with better sales,” or, if a book was dropping COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

in sales, getting off that book… I wouldn’t even know what the sales figures were, Jon. The only thing I am interested in is one thing: what is the next line? What is the next panel? What is the next page? What is the next book? You have to maintain that vision, that energy, that passion for it—like with the “Panther’s Rage,” that’s two-and-a-half years—and it doesn’t matter whether it’s accepted, hated, whatever, that you’re going to keep those blinders on until you get to the end, and maybe it’s somewhere close to what you hoped it would be in your head when you were trying to put it together. CBC: What was the difference between doing that and novels? You had written novels before, right? What’s the difference? Is there any? Don: Novels are easier. Screenplays are easier. I’ve done them both, and I’ve got to write and direct a film. And I had total say on whatever I wanted to do! How many people get to do that, Jon? Seriously. But they’re easier. But the reaction is from the outside world—back in those earlier days—it’s changed now with super-hero movies and comic book movies becoming so big in the pop culture, but if you go back to the ’70s, ’80s, ’90s, before all this becomes big business, comics are thought of second rate by a lot of people. And certainly even by writers in the business. One thing I can tell you, Jon, and touching on something you said earlier, is comics were never second rate to me. I always thought they were a great medium. I loved it. And

Above: Cover of the trade paperback edition of the Black Panther Penguin Classics Marvel Collection. Below: Late actor Chadwick Boseman, who expertly personified T’Challa of Wakanda, seen here reading the Jungle Action issues by Don McGregor, much of which influenced the 2018 hit film.

Above: Don telling actor Chadwick Boseman at the 2017 Comic-Con in San Diego that his portrayal of Black Panther “captured the way I always heard and felt him in my head.” Below: It is difficult to imagine that the Black Panther film, currently ranked as the 14th highest-grossing movie of all time, would have been made if not for Don’s “Panther’s Rage” [1973–75] featuring an all-black cast, set in an independent, technologically superior African nation, with one of the great villains of fiction, Killmonger. Here is Rich’s niece, Natasha (left), and Marsha and Don McGregor at the world premiere, in 2018.

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Black Panther TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc. Photos courtesy of Don McGregor.

when you get to something that’s close to what you saw and you had a talented artist bring their talent to it. And so, it’s not just Billy Graham and Rich Buckler and Craig Russell, and Gene Colan and Marshall Rogers, and Dwayne Turner and Tom Yeates, and Mike Mayhew—and I know I am leaving people out who shouldn’t be left out—but to see them bring that stuff to life and make it real and care as much as I did… Those people will become my lifelong friends forever. And I will never forget to mention them. And that’s why… like today, I knew I had to do this thing with you, but it was like, this memorial to Gene Colan and I need to be up there, and his daughter and his son need to know that I have not forgotten. I convinced [Rich’s wife] Mila [Buckler] to go to The Black Panther premiere. She wasn’t going to go. I said, “Rich would want you to go, so you could be with me and watch it. So, come on.” She was. She was with Marsha and me… CBC: You know, Rhode Island is a little bit of a backwater in its own way. It’s between Boston and New York. It can be parochial. It’s a very Catholic state. Don: Where I grew up from very early, until I was eight, was predominantly Italian and Portuguese. In my head, I thought it was more Italian. But I realize now they had the big Portuguese Day Picnic on the parade grounds down there. So, I guess it must have been Portuguese. I think we were the only WASP family in that neighborhood. There was a big difference. I went to a Catholic kindergarten. The Catholic Church was the only one that had a kindergarten. The public schools did not have a kindergarten back in 1950 or ’51, I guess. CBC: What’s your ethnic background, Don? Don: With a name like McGregor, you obviously have to have… I don’t think you can avoid being Scottish in some ways… The Highlands just call to me. When I was there… [long pause] I can’t explain it, but there’s just something there.

CBC: You connected to Scotland. Don: But I always have. My grandfather comes from Switzerland. Back when I was first with Marsha… I got invited to be the guest of honor at a big London comic convention. And this was in the early days of when they were doing… because this would be in ’78, and I didn’t realize what an honor it was because I was the first American writer they would bring over as their guest of honor and at first I refused to go because Marsha was pregnant with our son. (There’s a reason for bringing this in. It all ties in.) When I got there for the convention—and the people of England have always been profoundly nice to me. I think maybe they loved the books, even more than my home state. So that was very pleasant. And then fans from England and Scotland put Marsha and I up… And, at one point, you know, being asked questions, somebody said, “What are you going to name the baby when the baby’s born?” I said, “Well, you know, if it’s a boy, it’s either Rob Roy or Shane (after the movie)…” My mom had given us money to go to Switzerland to visit my grandfather. He gave us money to go to have a night in Paris, where we were locked up in the Paris Metro at midnight (but that’s another story). Marsha and I were eating at a sidewalk café, and I remember saying to her, “Welcome to life with a comic book writer. We’re eating at a Paris bistro and have no idea how to pay the rent when we get back home.” Back in England, because we had to come back to the States from England where the comic con had made the reservations, we were on the plane, our luggage aboard, taxiing out to take-off, and the plane stopped. A jeep lunged up and the pilot said we had to get off to have Marsha checked because she was pregnant. I told them we had permission from the midwife, who would deliver the baby, and tell me that the baby will be born flat as a pancake if we take off. But other than that, she let us go home, our luggage is here and we have, maybe, $50 to our name. They swear they won’t take off, and they make us get in the jeep. And, of course, they lied. The plane immediately takes off. Nuns in Heathrow in their medical room told Marsha she was going to have to give birth to Rob in England. (And then they were surprised when her blood-pressure was high.) For a week, the comic convention organizers tried to convince the airlines to let us go, but after more than one suspenseful possibility and another, nothing worked until… What happens is the people running the comic book convention go and tell the airlines they are going to go to the media and tell them they are holding us… They threatened to go to the media, saying, “If you don’t let them go home, you are keeping an American comic writer hostage in London, forcing him to have his baby here.” Once they were threatening to do that, suddenly the thing came through that we could go and we had to rush. I remember his driving and, man, on those narrow country roads… I thought, “Maybe we’re just going to die here.” [laughs] Wow, then we got there and took off and we were able to come back and Rob was born in Brooklyn. That, in itself, is another story… I don’t know how many stories you want… [laughs] CBC: So, what was the connection with Rhode Island? How did your family end up in Rhode Island? Don: I know my grandfather… I told you he was from Switzerland… CBC: Did you use that little episode in Killraven, I think it was? Did you have an older woman who was hitting on him influenced by your grandfather’s plight? Don: Oh, yeah, that was in the graphic novel. CBC: Was that related at all? Don: No. I mean, it was unique. CBC: Cougars is what they’re called, Don. Don: [Then DC publisher] Jenette Kahn thought I was writing about her. But I wasn’t. It was a story I had planned in the initial plotlines I had… I just had plotlines. One was going to be kind of like a Phantom of the Opera set

Photos courtesy of Don McGregor.

in Cape Kennedy. And that was like, I felt like there was a story there. I don’t know exactly what it is, but I might find interest in that. And then it just kept evolving because that was then done much later than the regular books. It would probably would have had it, but in a much different fashion if the series had continued, it was probably the next book or two I had planned, but… When we came back… And coming back to Killraven was a tricky thing because, you know, Jim Shooter had been in and, at one point, when I was doing the “Hodiah Twist” story for Marvel’s black-&white magazines. I was doing work that had been written under work-for-hire, and I had done a second “Hodiah Twist “story that Gene Colan drew, and I really loved doing that character, and it was right up Gene’s alley: Sherlock Holmes, horror, you know…all these things that Gene just loved to draw. And Adrienne, Gene’s wife, told me, these are things you would never suspect about… people you think this is what they do or this is who they are… I had known Gene for a long time. And you look at Gene’s art, normally it looks just so finished, so accomplished… It’s done. That’s what it is and he could draw anything with total confidence. And Adrienne said to me, “You know, he never talks about the work.” At some point, Adrienne said something like, “Gene doesn’t read ahead in the script.” I said, “What do you mean ‘Gene doesn’t read ahead in the script’?” And I said to Gene, “Why wouldn’t you?” He said, “No, Don, if I read ahead in the script, then I have to worry about how am I going to draw that.” This is why, at times— if Gene was turned on by a scene—the scene might run longer than what you had originally planned for it. So, once I learned that about Gene… When we were doing Nathaniel Dusk II, the second series, there would be a point where I said, “Gene, if you’re behind, if you’re not up to where I am now, you need to catch up. Because we have a big ending coming and I need room to do it. It’s big action stuff and I need to make sure you’ve got room for it.” And still, that’s one of my favorite books to this day, part of it because of Gene… You asked about Rhode Island: I don’t know how they came to be here. They were just here. I don’t think I cared. I was so involved in pop culture. I mean, pop culture’s been real to me, maybe more than real life, Jon. CBC: Were you middle class? Don: If you read Ragamuffins, that’s my life here. I could show you every place that Ragamuffins takes place, it mostly still exists, not two miles from where we are right now. CBC: Explain it: what was the milieu of Ragamuffins? Don: Ragamuffins was probably my favorite things of all the series. I had it planned for years along with Detectives, Inc., and Sabre… When the “Black Panther” and “Killraven” were coming to an end, I was starting to talk about the “Hodiah Twist” piece, because that’s when Jim Shooter told me I would never work at Marvel Comics again. I had just come back from England—this may have been a week before Rob was born—and I was told that I would never be allowed in the hallowed halls again, because I didn’t sign a work-for-hire contract, even though the “Hodiah Twist” story had been written before and was covered by whatever they had and it became a transition point. And that meant I couldn’t go to Marvel for work anymore, at that point in time. All these things are interconnected, because then, about three or four years later, I went to a thing that Phil Seuling was having at his comic book store, which was a big pop culture event. (I don’t normally do a lot of those events, so I’m not sure why I went.) It was a gathering of comic book people and Archie Goodwin was there, and he comes up to me and says, “So, Don, would you consider coming back to do Killraven?” And I said, “Well, the first question right off the bat is: Archie, who am I responsible to, you or Jim Shooter? Because there’s no way I’m going to come back and have Shooter take my work and have free reign with it.” And Archie said, “You only have to COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

answer to me.” And I said, “Well, if Craig [Russell] wants to do it, I would be more than willing to come back.” I love Craig. I love him dearly. He stuck with me all those years when writers wanted to take him off Killraven, offering him this or that, so I thank God for Craig Russell. [Shouts directly into audio recorder] I love you, Craig! Keep that in there… Archie calls Craig Russell and says, “Don is interested in coming back to do Killraven. Would you do Killraven, Craig?” Archie was so slick… That’s how the last Killraven came about… This all goes back to you asking about the older woman… I think I always had it planned where that would be the Phantom of the Opera person, but then it changed. I don’t think you’ll see much Phantom of the Opera in there. But Jenette Kahn thought I named the character after her! [gauges Jon’s reaction] Oh, Jon didn’t know this! A little story behind the scenes! That’s how her character came to be. I wanted to do different women characters than what you normally saw in comics, and the idea that there’s this older woman who still had sexuality, still had energy, still had zest, and everything. I really got to like her character quite a bit. She wasn’t planned until I was doing that book. Like I said to Archie, “I can’t finish everything up for you. I can resolve the situation with Killraven’s brother and why he’s so important. I can do that, but I can’t end it. There’s not enough room.” Because, when I realized when doing the regular series, I think “Killraven” was an important book when we started it, but then it went through three different artists and writers in as many issues, therefore now… And science fiction, again, just like the jungle

Above: From a young age, Don McGregor was particularly devoted to his favorite passions, from Hopalong Cassidy to James Bond, as evidenced by his sweater emblazoned with Agent 007’s logo in this shot from the latter 1960s. Below: Don with his parents, Louise (Besson) and Francis, in 1980. His father passed away in 1991 and mother died in 2015.

Above: Randomly selected, this is but one of the many letters of comment by Don that Marvel published in their super-hero line. The letter hack was particularly enamored of the work of Jim Steranko. This missive appeared in Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD #1 [June 1968]. Inset right: Artist Billy Graham visits Don McGregor in Rhode Island in the very early ’70s. Next page: At top is an undated photo of artist Billy Graham, who passed away in 1997. At bottom is Billy’s portrait of Don drawn during the same R.I. visit. Below: Alex Simmons (left), Don’s daughter, Lauren, and Don in a playground in New York City’s Central Park, circa early 1970s.

fins… Don: So when I was doing this series… Gene was unavailable for a long time… When I was first going to do an independent project, I realized coming off of Marvel, number one, I realized I was a slow writer, I wasn’t fast. That wasn’t going to change, probably. You have to come to a realization about who you are and what you can do realistically can try to do. I had Sabre, and I had Detectives, Inc.… I had always intended that as film stuff I was doing here in Rhode Island here, with Alex Simmons, because we loved doing our own stunt work and everything… I still have a lot of stuff on film, like when Alex swings an axe at my head. We were using a real axe because we didn’t know there were fake weapons! “What…?” Because again, Alex and I were quite a bit alike in that we loved pop culture. We loved everything: comics, books, movies, and to be able to act this stuff out, to play around with this, and do this stuff…it was fun! It was great! Even if somebody could get hurt. It was just part of the payment. You gotta do this stuff. Because Alex and I used to go strap six-guns on and go into Central Park and—this is in probably the early 1970s—and play guns at two or three o’clock in the morning. And, as Alex said recently, these days that probably wouldn’t happen. I would probably end up shot dead. Which is a very saddening thing to think we have regressed as a culture that should be what we have in mind… CBC: Growing up, there were a lot of Catholic kids… Were you around any Black kids? Don: No… CBC: How did you meet Alex? Don: Well, that’s a great story. How many stories do you want? This is a great story. So I went to Phil Seuling’s Comic-Con. And

as you probably know I’m a big Steranko fan. Since I’ve been in almost every letters page that’s in his Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD comics. So I’m at the convention and Jim is there. Jim is signing stuff for people, so I bring my [bound copy of Nick Fury comics] up to be signed—and, remember, I’m not a comic book writer yet and I’m not even doing stuff at Warren yet—and he looks up and says, “You’re Don McGregor?” And I’m thinking, “How does Steranko know who Don McGregor is? What? How’s that?” CBC: From Rhode Island? Don: When I started writing letters [of comment] to the books… If you have people writing three-to-five page letters to every book, analyzing everything you’ve done in those books, you’re going to know that person! By the time I met Dean Mullaney or Peter B. Gillis, a number of people, I knew those people because they wrote these incredible letters to the books and I became aware that somebody’s

paying attention. And I would tell people in that time frame, “You want to get into comics? The one thing I can promise you that gets read are letters to the editor and they’ll start recognizing your name, so you might have a chance. I knew this from the encounter with Steranko, because he knew me from the letters pages, cause he read all those letters. So Jim says, [lowers voice] “I’m having a party in my hotel room tonight. Come down about 10 o’clock, but don’t tell anybody where it is or anything.” This is great! I get to hang out with Jim Steranko. This is terrific! And we went down there and Alex was one of the people Jim had invited. CBC: Was Alex Simmons a New Yorker? Don: Alex grew up in Spanish Harlem. And right away— you would think all these things—because I’m white, he’s Black… He’s born and raised in the big city, I’m raised in the smallest state in the Union, Rhode Island. But we had all these things that we loved, and that was pop culture. CBC: So he was your first Black friend? Don: Yeah, absolutely. But race isn’t something I think about. My sister told Marsha that Alex was the first Black person she ever saw. CBC: So he came up and visited you in Rhode Island? Don: Alex? We filmed up here all the time. Billy Graham came up… CBC: So he came up from Staten Island… Don: From New York. Alex and I were really close friends. You don’t have someone swinging an axe at your head that you don’t believe is like your best buddy. There’s certain people like Dean Mullaney, Alex, Billy… Billy became a close friend. That photograph you see of the two of us #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Photos courtesy of Don McGregor.

genre material, are not big sellers in comics. If you’re not getting big sales with Joe Kubert’ drawing Tarzan at DC, what do expect you’re gonna get from Jungle Action? It was the same with “Killraven.” Yeah, I think I planned and then, later on, I heard—I think it was Steve Gerber that told me he was in a meeting and they said, “Yeah, we’ll give Don these books and then they’ll die. And we can tell him, ‘We gave you your chance.’” Thank God for fans! You know what I learned, Jon? It did bring me to tears. That people would use you that callously and not have any regard for your well-being. So, yeah, that leaves some kind of scars, but then I get to meet so many people, terrific people, and I’m thankful for that. CBC: So the Ragamuffins world you live in… For those who haven’t read Ragamuf-

Images courtesy of Don McGregor.

sometimes, where I got the silver shirt, that was taken in Rhode Island, where I’m living in the house in North Kingstown. Don’t forget, when I get the offer to work on staff for $125 a week at Marvel, I was living in a three-bedroom house with a fireplace, a garage… I had a view of a pond across the way and, if I walked two blocks the other way, I was at a private stretch of beach on Narragansett Bay. And I gave that up for a $125 a week job. But, hey, it was Marvel, and I knew somehow that they had to give me something to write. If you’re there, that’s like kind of an unwritten rule… that it’s not etched in concrete anywhere, but that’s essentially what was going to happen, and that’s really what did happen… Of course, it cost me a marriage and it cost me… CBC: Being in New York or working at Marvel and working into the night on your stuff? Don: That certainly had an impact… it was a problem enough to move out of Rhode Island. I don’t think I thought about it at the time. This is all looking back, and I realize that I didn’t know how to balance things, Jon, at that point in my life. You know, it’s like that old stage show they used to have where people would spin the plate and there’d be like five or six of them, and you’d spin the plate, and you have to remember the other one is wobbling, it’s gonna fall off and it’s gonna smash, I felt, looking back on it. My life had turned into that. For everything I paid attention to, then there were other things I wasn’t paying attention to. This is the thing about creating. Something where it’s a continuation. It’s a bi-monthly deadline. It’s always there. It doesn’t matter what else is going on in your life. So, at the time that I was finishing up “Panther’s Rage,” I was starting to go through divorce, I was going into custody courts to see my daughter, and nothing… and you know my daughter, you know I’m not just saying this, Jon. There is nothing more important to me in life than my children. She knows she’s got a dad who loves her. As long as Lauren wants to see me, she’s going to know she has a dad willing to fight to see her. And I feel that way about it to this day. Still one of the hardest things emotionally probably, was her going back to her mother. Time to put her on a plane at 12-, 13-years-old, and I wouldn’t see her for another year. But then you still have to produce the books. And my original intent, now for Panther vs. the Klan stuff, was to do a story on South Africa and apartheid. CBC: How did you know about apartheid? Just seeing the news…? Don: I don’t know, Jon. I don’t… CBC: I mean, that took some reading at the time. I remember those days. It wasn’t until the late ‘70s when apartheid was in public consciousness… Don: It was in my consciousness because I was being exposed to all different kinds of lifestyles and people, and I had friends who were all different races, all different religions, all different kinds of sexuality, and I thought, “Why is it that comics can’t do this?” If you tell me the publishers’ bottom line is green, then why wouldn’t you want to include percentages of the world out there, of people who would buy comics? Everybody wants to make some kind of political agenda out of it. It was just a human thing. I don’t care… I don’t understand… Why does this exist? What is a person’s skin color matter? Why should the person feel they might lose their job because they’re gay? I don’t get it. And I had friends that I was really close to and, a lot of times, you would see the consequences of the worst behavior you could have on these individual human beings, and why, Jon? So, I know there are those people whose heads are filled up somehow… and I think it goes straight back to when I was a kid. Part of it is, I love pop culture and pop culture said certain things to me. I don’t know that I could define them. I don’t even know if what I’m about to tell you is true or not, but, in recent years, as I get older, looking back, I thought, “I see what I was doing here…” I don’t know if this is true because I never thought about it. You’re asking me questions like this is a concrete thing that made me do this. Well, that’s for books and that’s for movies because, in real life, a lot of time, it’s just a part of living daily life, and it becomes a part of who and what you are, and you don’t think about that. It’s not just not there. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

So, I realized with the books, for instance, you notice in any of the stories that deal with violence—war—you can’t tell the audience that only the people you like don’t die, that they’re all safe. It’s a lie given to the audience. I can deal with the sexuality of the characters. Why does this matter? Like Sabre, for instance, which has elements of race, of course, and sex. Now, I’m dealing with the outside world and editorial on these issues. And, obviously, to do an interracial kiss in “Killraven” was a big, big deal. It didn’t just happen. To get that done, I foreshadowed it with scenes with those characters, M’Shulla and Carmilla. Every issue, I would make sure there was a scene between them. Even though there was no written rule about it, I knew I couldn’t just do it without leading up to it. I had to figure out a way to do it. And then I get called to the editor’s office pretty early on. He wanted to know if I was doing a “salt and pepper relationship” (that was their term). And I knew it was too early. If I told him yes, I would be told I can’t do it. When you’re working for the companies that way, you have no power. They have the power. And If you say, ‘No, I’m not doing it.” And they tell you, “No, you can’t do it.” And you go and try to do it. You’re not gonna get it into print, Jon. They’re gonna stop you dead in your tracks. So then, I would have to find a way to quit the book. So, I’m on the spot. Because this puts a big spotlight on it, and I gotta figure out a way to get through it. I got really fortunate because Rich came in and did an issue of Killraven… Gene Colan, who I didn’t know at the time. (And Gene drew something worth dying for, which, to the end of his life, he did not believe he drew. He had no memory of it. In hospice, I brought him the comic. I showed it to him. He said, “But, yeah, Don, the first thing you and I ever did was ‘Hodiah Twist.’” I said, “No, Gene, we worked together years before that, but you know, okay?”) CBC: The World According to Gene… Don: Gene drew a lot of stuff. Great, great stuff. But the point was, and then I finally got Craig Russell See, Craig was put on the book because Craig was just really starting out and I’m on staff at the time when Craig first comes on the book. And he’s not Craig Russell as the world knows him today. He’s the Craig Russell learning his craft and becoming a better and better storyteller all the time, so they put Craig on. Because Craig 45

This page: Comics fan Sam Maronie took these photos of Don—with artist P. Craig Russell, above—at Phil Seuling’s 1975 Comic Art Convention, held in New York City. Don and Craig, of course, comprised the creative team on their outstanding Amazing Adventures series, “War of the Worlds.” Craig told Ye Ed: “Don was a great friend… we really clicked with yin/yang sort of way… I would bring in stuff and he’d start bouncing up and down in his chair at an expression I did, ‘This is just great! This is just Wow! Wow!’ That makes you want to do better next time…”

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Photos courtesy of Sam Maronie and © Maronie Creative Services.

did a fanzine interview, when there wasn’t a lot of places to talk about comics and certainly you didn’t have many people slamming a company for doing something to you, which Craig had done. I think it was “Ant-Man.” And he kinda said something about it… I don’t remember what. I know he was in the dog house. They’re really upset. And if they hadn’t been expanding the line, and we had this extra strip, goddammit, so they gave it to Craig. Within two or three or four issues, they’re already saying, “Get off that rinky-dink McGregor book, Craig. I can put you on a title that’s selling thousands more copies, you’d be more popular!” And again, as I said before, I thank God for Craig. CBC: Did you recognize that Craig was gay? Don: Yes. CBC: Kind of immediately, before he even publicly… Don: Craig and I were friends, Jon. We went to movies together. We hung out together. So what part of this are you asking…? CBC: I think this is the time to bring up the word “phobia.” Now “homophobia” means a fear of homosexuals and racism is ultimately a fear of people of other colors than yourself… You’re a diminutive guy like me. You’re short. I was bullied a lot as a kid. Were you bullied? Don: Yeah. If you’re not a joiner and you’re a short guy, sure. CBC: I was always the last to be picked on a team. Don: I never wanted to be on the team! Not enough to really want to do what they needed me to do to be on the team. CBC: I think a solid difference is I had a real bully for a father, so I had a really, really hard time with fear as a youngster. Fear was a big thing with me and I only recognized it when I got older. You come across as fearless, Don. Is that true? You didn’t have any fear of gay people, so you didn’t suffer from the prejudice… Don: Why would I fear? CBC: Because the world teaches that, Don.

Don: What other people want to do, as long as it’s consensual stuff between adults… CBC: Where does that come from, do you think? Culture does not teach you that. Culture teaches that people need to stay within their boundaries. It’s understood that people have certain roles to play, but, in the early ’70s, those preconditions exploded. You adapted to it. Don: I think it was just a part of me. There was no conscious thought about it. I’m sure it was influenced by the fact that I had really close friends like Billy Graham. The way we got introduced, it could have been totally different. And Alex and Billy and I became really good friends, so that when I was trying to sell my stories before I was at Marvel, I would travel to stay with Billy up in Harlem. And a lot of white people are always trying to make you afraid: [animated] “You can’t be going dressed in your ruffled shirts and your attaché case. And you’re going to Harlem at two o’clock in the morning! What, are you crazy? They’re gonna kill you up there.” I had a lot of adventures up in Harlem, but I won’t tell those stories, Jon, until we reprint all the Billy Graham Sabre stories, as I often told myself, “That’s when I’ll tell those stories.” But, now that I know his granddaughter, some of the stories… well, I can’t tell so much. CBC: [Laughs] You know how, before Obama, Bill Clinton was called the first African American president because of his rapport with Black people? In a lot of ways, I always thought that you were the first mainstream comic book writer… Don: People like Michael Davis…This was when I was getting the [2015] Bill Finger Award [for Excellence in Comic Book Writing] and Michael had the table right beside my table with my kids, Lauren and Rob, and Marsha, my wife, and all my grandkids there. [former Marvel editor and friend] Jim Salicrup was there. [former Eclipse editor and friend] Dean Mullaney, and Dean said, “I don’t really like doing the San Diego Con, but I’ve gotta be there, Don, to see you get your award.” We’ve been friend for 40 years in this business, Jon, and that we’re still best buddies because there’s every reason to tear you apart in this business. It can only work when you’re keeping your word and treating each other nice. [softly] And Dean always kept his word to me. CBC: How does that relate to the stream of our conversation? I was saying you were the first “African American”… Don: When I was going up to get the award, Michael Davis yelled out, “Don’s the best Black writer in America.” And when I was going through the thing with Nick Barrucci…. CBC: Lady Rawhide? Don: And it was a bad time for me, because Marsha was in the hospital and it was serious stuff, not knowing how everything was going to turn out. Whether I was traveling from Brooklyn into Manhattan every day to see her, and, just before I was going in to the hospital, I see this thing about Lady Rawhide. And I think I wrote something like… And normally you should take time before doing anything on social media. It doesn’t mean you always listen to yourself or at the time realize “This is going to get me.” And I wrote something like, “Zorro Productions: Screwing Writers the Way Marvel Did.” When I came back they had Photoshopped the page and all this stuff. It was just… I’m coming off of life and death situations. Michael Davis wrote an article for ComicMix (I always forget the name of the website): “Don McGregor and Why Black People Love Him.” I’m just glad for somebody like Michael Davis in my life. The night before the award ceremony. I met with Dean, and Dean and I were having drinks, and then were taking one of those [pedicabs] along the boardwalk, because I was supposed to meet Michael for dinner. As I came out, I’m late, because I spent too long talking to Dean and having drinks. I thought, “Oh, sh*t! I’m supposed to meet Michael at 7:00. Now it’s quarter past 7:00 and I’m still at the hotel. So we get to the restaurant, and Michael comes out, and it’s getting dark, and he goes, “Don, where were you?”

ComicMix © ComicMix LLC.

We’re sitting in the ground floor and it’s fairly empty, and he’s gives me this menu, and says, “What would you like, Don?” I’m looking over the menu casually. Well, I don’t like the fish, that’s for sure. (I grew up in Rhode Island, and Rhode Island might be the Ocean State, but you’re not going to get me to eat fish! The bones will stick in my throat and there’s that mercury poisoning!) So Michael says, “No, Don, look at the menu.” I said, “Well, the steak looks pretty good.” He said, “No, Don! Look at the menu.” On the cover of the menu, he has this humorous picture of me, and it says, “Michael Davis’ Annual SDCC Dinner Honors Don McGregor”! He hosted this big dinner with my friends upstairs at Sally’s Restaurant. Dean was there and Dean had known all about the surprise dinner. And everyone was waiting upstairs. That somebody of Michael Davis’s caliber would feel this strongly about me and my work, and everything… [pauses] Those are the things that have an emotional impact on me, and then… I am just thankful that they’re there and they feel that way. I don’t know what else to tell you. I don’t know what influences it, Jon. I can’t think of anything all like, “I’m going to be about this.” I can say that probably one of the things that. I never thought about it in terms of race, okay? But I loved [TV adventure show] I Spy. As soon as I saw Robert Culp and Bill Cosby together, I loved those guys! They’re still my favorite for chemistry, actors performing together, because they don’t seem like they’re acting; it’s just like they are so in sync and in tune with each other. (This does not exonerate Bill Cosby for whatever he’s done in his life—it’s sad, it’s terrible, and I wish it didn’t exist, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t still love [I Spy characters] Alexander Scott and Kelly Robinson). When I finally got to be friends with Bob and did this Spyfest show with him [in 2003], I think the first thing I was saying to him when introducing him on stage [for an interview], “The first night I saw I Spy, it was love at first sight.” So, if you want [any indication of me not being prejudiced], I definitely loved I Spy and I definitely loved Bill Cosby. I remember Steve Gerber going like years later when Miami Vice was on… I said, “I don’t like Miami Vice. I can’t stand the show. I don’t watch it.” And Steve said, “I never understand you Don, COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

every time I think I’ve got you figured out….” I feel like I’m just like Elzie Segar’s Popeye: “I am what I am and that’s all that I am.” And so, if you ask me the question, that’s the basic answer. “I am who and I am and I know that I am.’ But then, if you were to ask me, “What is Don McGregor?” I don’t have a clue. I’m just going through day to day, doing hopefully the best I can. CBC: Are you a liberal? Are you a Democrat? Are you… a Libertarian? Don: I’ve never liked labels. And not too long ago, I was with my son and his ex-wife, and she asked me, “Were you a hippy, Don?” I said to Rob, “Well, what do you think? Do you think Dad was a hippy?” He said, “I don’t see you joining anything, Dad.” I know people want to put labels, because it’s easy if you can sum a person up in three to four lines and that’s who they are, and they feel they know you, they’re more comfortable, they know where you’re at, and they know what you’re gonna do… CBC: Well, we don’t have to use this for print, but you’re not a Trumpie, are you? Don: [Laughs uproariously] Holy Christmas! CBC: [Laughs] But, are you a Trumpie? Don: Please, Jon. Now we’re bringing Donald Trump into this! He gets way too much notoriety, more than he

This page: Milestone Comics’ co-founder Michael Davis is effusive in his appreciation for Don’s work, saying his “body of work and original creations are simply awe-inspiring. I don’t think I’ve ever read a bad Don McGregor story. I know I’ve never encountered a bad Don McGregor original super-hero. One of the reasons I was such a little pussy when I met Don is he writes the best black characters. Hell, I wish I could write black characters as well as Don does.” In 2015, Michael surprised Don with a celebratory dinner at the San Diego Comic-Con, menu inset left and photo below. Two years earlier, Michael came to Don’s defense with his ComicMix essay, “Don McGregor and Why Black People Love Him,” at top.

deserves… CBC: Well, it’s the zeitgeist… It’s the very, very, very fragile age which we live in… Don: This is my excuse for everything: I just write comic books, so what do you expect? What do I know about that? CBC: We don’t have to necessarily go down an avenue you don’t want to talk about, Don. Don: It’s not that I don’t want to talk about it. I’m not any of those things as a person. I have some beliefs that would be considered conservative; I have some beliefs that would be liberal. I don’t know. I’m not about defining them either. I think the books express what I feel and what I feel is important. But, yeah, you can ask the question. The question I would have right now is like, “Is democracy truly under threat the way much of the news media seems to think, and if so, if democracy is threatened, what does that mean for the average person living in America?” What does that mean? I don’t know, Jon. If you’ve got an answer, tell the people right now. CBC: I’m the one with the questions, Don!

natural back and forth… Don: What is Detectives, Inc., about? My favorite image is… [Ted] Denning and [Bob] Rainier, the two detectives, back-to-back, in the pouring rain, and they know they don’t have to watch the other guy, because the other guy’s got his back. I believe in friendship. You want to know what I believe in? That’s one of the things. I believe if you’re a friend… You had a question about Hopalong Cassidy… How did Hopalong Cassidy affect me… Some of the basic things is, if a friend’s in trouble, you try to help them out. If something bad is happening, you don’t turn away and make believe it isn’t happening. You see what you can do about it. I can’t say that I live up to all of the things I saw in William Boyd, but I do believe in them. When I was going to see one of Hoppy’s movies as an adult, I was afraid to find out that it wasn’t like I remembered as a kid, when it affected me so much. I was worried that, as an adult, I’d outgrown any meaning it had for me. I got to see Hopalong Cassidy because of Alex Simmons and because I was in New York City—in Rhode Island, I

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Detectives, Inc. TM & © Don McGregor. I Spy TM & © Three F Productions. 87 th Precinct © the estate of Evan Hunter.

Above: The appeal of the TV action series, I Spy (pictured at right with Bill Cosby wielding a bigger gun than Robert Culp), which ran for three seasons [1965–68], was less the fact it was racially diverse, then that they were friends who literally had one another’s back when the going got tough. Don McGregor was inspired to create the Detectives, Inc., team of Denning and Rainer. Detectives, Inc. #1 [Apr. 1985] cover by Marshall Rogers (pencils) and Tom Yeates (inks). Top right is Robert Culp and Don at Spyfest 2003. Below: Don was also mightily influenced by the 55-volume Evan Hunter 87 th Precinct crime novel series [1956–2005].

Don: Put me on the spot, would ya? [chuckles] CBC: I think it’s interesting that Gerber brought up Miami Vice, thinking that, because you liked I Spy, that naturally you’d like Miami Vice, because it has the same racial component… It’s similar in a very blatant way, I guess, but I Spy has a chemistry, this charisma, of these two characters… You dig it not due to the fact that they’re black-&-white… It’s the fact that they have this

Sabre TM & © Don McGregor.

probably wouldn’t have had the chance—and, one night, Alex says, “Come on Don, we’re going to go see Hopalong Cassidy.” This is in early 1970s. “How are we going to do that?” “Come on!” We go down to the Port Authority and there was a secret cinema there, when you went down 40th Street, right across from a rehab center, where the transsexuals did their hooker work underneath the Port Authority bus ramps, where the bus is coming down, there were some steps. If you went down the steps and knocked on the door, and the people came and recognized you— you need to have someone verify for them that you’re alright—and there’s a movie theatre in there. And all they showed was B movies. So we’re watching this Hopalong Cassidy movie and everything I loved about William Boyd was still there and still in me. And I said, “How did they get this film?” Alex said, “I don’t really know, but I suppose we could go ask.” The guy said, “That film is up for sale, by the way: $60.” I ask [animated], “How much money do you got on you, Alex?” I didn’t even have a projector, but I got myself a 16 mm print of a 1930s Hopalong Cassidy movie! And I was really excited and thrilled by it. That was great! Then I got to be friends with the guy who owned the movie theatre and, at one point, he asked me, “What do you like?” “I really love to get some I Spy episodes.” So Joe says to me, “Come up to the Bronx, come up to the grand concourse, on the 200 block. I’ll meet you there Sunday afternoon, 3:00, and I’ll have an I Spy for you.” So I go up there and meet Joe and he had great films. We’d go watch them, then we’d go to the West Side Diner, and I’d be coming home at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning, check out the porn stores on 42nd Street, I was heading up toward the train… I know you once said, “Don, weren’t you afraid people would see you at the porn stores?” Porn made the internet! It makes billions and billions of dollars! Everybody denies they look at it… but, come on! Stop the charade! [Jon laughs] But Joe told me, “You know that day I met you up in the Bronx?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “I was afraid you were an FBI undercover agent and you were going to arrest me.” I said, “Seriously, Joe? You thought I was an FBI guy?” It’s like you thinking I would be a Trump fan! [chuckles] CBC: Oh, come on, I didn’t think that, Don. But let’s move on from that, okay? This may reveal my white privilege, but when I was a kid, skin color simply did not register with me. We had a Black babysitter, but I only realized after the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr., that she was Black, when I asked my mom what the subsequent riots were all about. Don: I asked Alex recently about when we first met, “Did you think of me as white?” I don’t think either one of us thought in those terms… I was just Don. He was Alex. For me, coming from Rhode Island, that fact that I was now talking with somebody who could talk at length and in depth about the same things that I loved… I didn’t have a lot in common with anyone I knew here… You aren’t going to find a lot of comics lovers with whom you can talk about comics or even TV shows or… Obviously, I am profoundly influenced by a number of writers. And maybe part of it again, Evan Hunter as Ed McBain and his 87th Precinct books, and in 1955, he’s got the first Black policeman [in detective fiction], because he’s writing about big city police force. It’s Manhattan, though he gave the city a fake name. Evan told me, “The only COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

reason I ever gave it a fictional name, Don, was that the laws in the city kept changing, so that by the time I had a book come out, people would nitpick and say, “Oh, that law doesn’t exist anymore!” So, by making it a fictional place, that law could still exist. But it’s all Manhattan, it’s all the five boroughs of New York City… He did a book called See Them Die, which is about two people dying on a street city in Spanish Harlem. I remember Dean Mullaney telling me the first time he read that book he said, “My goodness, this book knocked Don all over the place.” And it did. My mom said to me at one point, she said, “I never saw you as somebody living in New York City. You didn’t even care about going to Arctic…” Arctic [a small, urbanized neighborhood in the center of West Warwick, a Rhode Island town] is about a mile from here…

Above: Sabre, Don McGregor and artist Paul Gulacy’s booklength adventure saga set in a post-apocalyptic America, was not only among the first graphic novels, it was the very first of its kind sold in the direct market, as well as the inaugural production that launched Eclipse Comics, in 1978. The artist was in top form for the bravura effort, as evidenced by this exquisitely rendered page sporting Paul’s pencils and inks.

Above: Eclipse house ad promoting Sabre, a daring series [1982–85] that stirred controversy. Below: Don receives a lifetime achievement award at Madrid Hero con in Spain, 2018. Photo by George Pratt.

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Sabre TM & © Don McGregor.

CBC: Yeah, I know Arctic. I edited a daily newspaper feature section near there, at The Kent County Daily Times, in the mid-’00s. Don: So, she said, “You didn’t care about it one way or another, and then you end up in New York City.” But I knew New York City because of Evan Hunter. He was the great New York City writer. [of the 87th Precinct police procedural novel series]. The first line of his book, The Mugger [1956]: “The city could be nothing, but a woman…” And then he does a treatise on why the city’s like a woman. To this day, I mean, I can’t quote the entire thing to you, but that’s one piece of writing, “Wow! It’s great.” See Them Die… There’s one point where he just stops the book, and he goes like, “All these things could happen to people on the street. If you’re God, you know, you can do this. You can make this happen. You can make that happen.” And then he goes, “But that’s not the way it happened.” And then he describes what happens in the real world. But, yeah, 1955: [screenwriter/TV producer] Stirling Silliphant taught me, I believe. One of the things I got from [Silliphant’s TV drama] Route 66 was you can try every time out. That doesn’t mean you always connect and make a

home run, but every time he was swinging, he’d knock it out into the bleachers if he could. You never know when that’s gonna be the last story you get to write, the last story you get to tell. And you owe the readers, you owe the people everything you’ve got. That doesn’t mean everyone’s gonna love what you do. There’s gonna be people who hate what you do. That can’t be the reason you’re doing it. I can’t do it for money and I can’t do it just…. It’s gotta be, “What’s this story about? And what do I hope I’m putting out in the world?” CBC: You know what one of my favorite things to recognize in particular endeavor? It’s earnestness, which doesn’t necessarily mean a work is good, but there’s something laudable in an earnest effort that it tries to be meaningful. If an artist really tries hard and has a certain vision, even if it might be totally flawed, but comes from the heart… Its earnest energy can appeal to me. Does being earnest mean something to you? Don: I don’t actually know how to answer that, Jon. Obviously I’m not… CBC: Believing in your characters and story with an honest fervor… Believing in the story that you’re going to… Don: I don’t know that I’ve ever really thought of it that way. What I’m thinking about is, “What makes this scene work?” Especially in longer form works. My hope is that we’re gonna finally get to restore Billy Graham’s Sabre or the second series… because the first series almost didn’t get printed. And again, going off on my own, I didn’t think it was going to be a problem dealing with race and sex. But, the very fact that you had a black-&-white couple, prominently displayed as the main characters of the piece… There was a point where the artist refused to finish the book, six pages from the end of it. And, in fact, I could show you the… [indicates storage container in driveway] I think the calendar’s out in that cube somewhere… I still have the Marvel Comics calendar from that time period and I have a note on there that the artist is going to make Sabre white. It wasn’t that Sabre and Melissa couldn’t have sex; they didn’t want her pregnant. It’s my book, it’s my script, I’m not changing it. If we’re going to do that, I will stay with Marvel Comics. I will put up with their grief, but that held up the book for months, and I mean months and months. You still got to stay alive economically. It was a bitch. It was hard. And if you look at the book, if you think I’m just telling you a story, go look at the indicia page and it has this thing. Dean Mullaney had to resolve it… I just kept saying, “I’m not changing it.” So I’m doing this book. And the others wanted Dean to put a statement saying, “The opinions of this book are not the artist’s or the publisher’s, it’s just the writer.” CBC: A disclaimer. Don: The same disclaimer that’s on so many DVDs now… I don’t know if it appears in later editions, but, probably in the first couple editions, it’s there. Of course, Dean didn’t have a problem with my story. He’s the one who’s paying for it! The thing that got me was I was the only one who hadn’t been paid for it. I think I took $300 or $400 upfront to pay the rent, but I thought the book was going to be coming out, whereas everybody else was getting paid above the page rate… the artist was getting his artwork back… These were unheard of things in 1976, ’77, I guess it was. So, when we were going to do the second series, I knew I was going to have gay characters in there. I had gay characters set up in “Panther’s Rage,” with Taku and Venomm. But that would have been my last book. I managed to get the interracial thing [in the “Killraven” series, Amazing Adventures #31, July 1975] through, but… and that was by just getting the readers to demand: “We need to let these characters get together.” I coulda gone to Stan [Lee]. Stan was right up the hall. If I cut editorial out and went to Stan to get the okay, because I knew how to approach Stan on that kinda thing. But then that means that’s like total war with editorial. So then you have to go to editorial and say, “I want to have a meeting with Stan

Killraven and associated characters TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

about this, I want to be able to do this.“ If they said no to me on this, how are they gonna back that up because now… They actually have to say—out loud—“No, we won’t let an interracial thing be in comics.” So, then there was a big meeting with Stan, and Stan said, “I don’t know what to think. I’m concerned the PTA, down in the South, they’ll take that panel and they’ll see it and…” I said, “Well, you know Stan, the thing that gets to me is I know you’re always wanting Marvel to be first and everything. The sad thing is, I think I heard DC’s gonna do a romance comic with an interracial kiss in it. And it sure would be a shame if DC did that first.” Stan said, “Oh no, Don, I don’t want that!” So, then they decided I could do it, but it could only be in “knock-out colors.” Now, knock-out colors—as I’m sure you know, but maybe not all the audience out there does—is that they’re all in one color. Like, all of the characters would be colored in purple. And because I was called into the editor’s office once again when the book came out [and the characters were fully colored, not with a knock-out color], “What’s this, Don, how did this happen?” “What are you talking about? What happened? This is in full color! It was supposed to be in knock-out colors!” [In mock surprise] “It isn’t? When did that happen? How did it happen? But that doesn’t look too bad, does it?” But, you know what, Jon? The roof did not fall on anybody’s head. CBC: And Jim Kirk had already done it with Uhura… Don: That’s a different medium, Jon… CBC: I’m just sayin’, Don… Don: Once that’s done, once a precedent is set, then it’s easier to do it again. Because that ceiling (glass or whatever you want to call it) has been cracked. Perhaps you can do that stuff again. So, I knew I had gay characters coming with [gay lovers in Sabre] Deuces Wild and Summer Ice, and I knew Billy, because Billy had gay friends, and Billy wasn’t going to have trouble… I even had a character coming called Dearie Decadence, and she was transgender. I had a tagline for her: “You get to have your cake and eat it, too” But for 1978, ’79,’80, in that timeframe, this stuff wasn’t in regular comics, but I wasn’t doing it because I wanted to be the first to do it; I was: “Why can’t I do it?” And I knew people who had a lot of negative things happen to them… It could have cost you your job if you were gay in the ’70s, and it’s not right, Jon. It wasn’t right then and it isn’t right now, and it’s not ever going to be right in any sane, just world. (Not that we live in a sane, just world, but if we did…) [Pauses] So, is this interview going the way you hoped? CBC: Sure. It’s a little free form, with… Don: Would I do it any other way? CBC: That situation with Jim Shooter about “Hodiah Twist”: was that in the early ’80s? Don: No, that had to be in the late ‘70s. CBC: Was it for Marvel Preview or something? Don: Yeah. CBC: Okay. So you did that… As far as creator rights go, you quit Marvel, correct? Or was it mutual? Don: “Was he pushed?” [laughs] I was taken off the “Black Panther” and told that—and I’m not making this up—I was told I was too close to the “black experience.” And that’s when I held up… “You’re talking about these pale white hands,” and, by the way, something you were talking about earlier… I was going to talk about being free form… I was sitting with Dwayne McDuffie and Denys Cowan at the San Diego Comic-Con. We were sitting outside on one of the steps, where the crowds come up and down. We’re just talking, and I remember Denys Cowan saying to me, “You know, Don, after I read Sabre, I always envisioned you were a big black guy, but you’re a short white guy… You’re whiter than white! You’re like Wonder Bread white!” [laughter] Dwayne McDuffie talked to me about doing a series for Milestone. And I wanted to do this story about playing the race card, about AIDS, it was something where Marsha COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

almost got killed in real life. This was the story I really wanted to write, so I told Dwayne about it and we’re at the Spaghetti Factory with Denys, and Dwayne never blanched once, he just said, “Okay.” The problem was I’d already said yes to Jim Salicrup about doing Zorro… I’d put him off for a couple months and that was a monthly book. So then, I’m researching—Zorro took so much research, because there’s the Indian tribes, the priests, the padres, the Catholic church… I researched all the Indian tribes and all the different cultures—and Jim said, “Oh, we’re going to do a Zorro #0.” And I’m like “We’re on Zorro #3,” but Jim said, “I don’t care. You’ve got 12 pages…” And I still tease Jim about it, just to be mind-numbingly brutal, I called the story, “Drink the Blood Straight.” But then Jim had me doing Zorro vs. Dracula, a whole other area of research because now you’ve gotta go research Bram Stoker and the Dracula mythos, and Spain and Paris in that time frame. And I had no time for anything. I called Dwayne up and said, “Dwayne, I really would love to work with you” and I eventually did get to work with him on [animated adventure series] Ben 10, but I said, “I’m going to screw you. There’s no way I can write for Milestone and realistically make that deadline…” CBC: Were you the only white writer that they… Don: I don’t know that. They never said that to

Above: While not overtly political by nature, Don was still determined to push societal norms in his stories, depicting the first gay characters in comics, in his “Black Panther,” and scripting mainstream comics’ first interracial kiss, seen in “War of the Worlds,” Amazing Adventures #31 [July 1975]. Below: Craig Russell cover art.

she knew I was genuine about my love for it and so, when we were doing conventions for Hoppy or things like that, if we were up on a panel, even with a bunch of people, Jerry Rosenfelt would say, “Don, be careful what you ask her because she’s really susceptible with you.” So, she chose me to be with when they were premiering a big documentary on Hopalong Cassidy, when they were holding it at the Hoppycon in Ohio. Grace asked if I would sit with her during the premiere. At one point, she’s watching the documentary and she’s got tears that are running the mascara down her eyes. “Oh, Don, I look a mess the press is waiting out there. They’re going to think…” I said, “Grace, when they see that you’re still crying, they’re going to love you all the more.” It was great. I got to be the one to sit with Grace Bradley Boyd. CBC: Wow. Don: But again, if you asked the kid from Rhode Island if he would end up being friends with these people… Why? Why would I think that? [laughter] I have a question for you, Jon, when you’re ready. I have a question for you, man. [Don poses for photos] CBC: Alright, shoot. Don: Are you telling me, Jon, that this is the first time Comic Book Creator magazine—which is your magazine— you make the decisions, am I right? Basically, you decide what’s going to be in it, what’s not going to be in it. You’ve said this to me over the years… We must have talked about you doing an issue on me. “Jon’s doing it,” so I guess we must have talked about it years ago. Here’s the thing: you said this is the first time Jon B. Cooke’s Comic Book Creator magazine cover-features a writer, not an artist. So, my question to you, Jon, is so do you think artists are more important to the comics medium than writers? Are writers just second-rate? [laughs] CBC: [Prolonged silence] Can I plead the Fifth Amendment? [laughter] Don: Oh man! No, no, no, no, no…. see, that’s not gonna fly, Jon. CBC: I mean, Comic Book Artist magazine did feature Alan Moore, but Comic Book Creator magazine, which should, by all accounts, have spotlighted numerous writers by its 29 t h issue, maybe even half its issues… I mean, I know comic book writers are creators, too. It wasn’t intentional. It just kinda came to me like, oops, I kinda missed that. But it’s also I have more relationships with artists than writers. As I said, it was not an intentional thing, but I’m also in a family of magazines that includes Alter Ego, which does cover a lot of writers, but it was important to me that you were the first writer cover-featured in Comic Book Creator magazine. Don: Why? CBC: Because I love you, Don. Don: I love you, Jon. CBC: You meant a great deal to me in my youth and I’ve learned you’re a lovely human being and a kind person, so you mean a lot to me now. As a teenager, I loved Don McGregor’s writing in the comics. I loved Steve Gerber’s #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Hopalong Cassidy TM & © U.S. Television Office, Inc.Comic Book Artist TM & © Jon B. Cooke.

Above: Random Hopalong Cassidy issue [#40, Feb. 1950], a copy of which began Don’s interest in the comic book form and an indication of his lifelong devotion to the character and his portrayer, actor William Boyd. Bill is seen at the Stork Club, in 1954, with his wife, actress Grace Bradley Boyd. And that’s Don posing with Grace at one of the annual festivals devoted to the superstar Western hero. Bill became the first national TV star and very wealthy in the process. Below: The only other ish devoted to a writer produced by Ye Ed, other than the one you hold in your hands, was the last issue of the TwoMorrows edition of Comic Book Artist [#25, Apr. 2003], the Alan Moore ish—though showcasing a mere pair of scribes wasn’t intentional, he swears!

me. I’m just saying that we talked about me writing for Milestone. And, years later… I had been sick some years back. At one point, I didn’t know how all this was going to go and I said to Dwayne, “If these motherf*ckers start rewriting history. You know what was going on. Don’t let them get away with it.” I never expected that I was going to outlive Dwayne. Because, in those days, there were things going on with me that were pretty intense. I didn’t know which way things were headed… CBC: This is your health… Don: I was actually at Robert Culp’s memorial… You asked me about the kid from Rhode Island: if you ever told me I was going to get to be friends with people like Bob Culp, Evan Hunter, of all my heroes… I got to meet Grace Bradley Boyd and got to be very close with her and she was everything you could hope Mrs. Hopalong Cassidy could be. Can I tell you a quick Grace story? Grace was in her 80s when I first met her. And a friend was doing a Western magazine and he wanted me to do a column for it. There was nothing I liked about Westerns more than Hopalong Cassidy. And the movies were starting to come out on video. So I said, “I want to do a thing on Hopalong Cassidy.” I’d never seen an interview with Grace and there’s a lot of Hoppy stories out there. So, you know when you’re doing an interview, Jon, you really don’t know how long you’re going to get. You might get five minutes from a person or it might be like I’m talking for a while and getting stuff that I can use. Grace had stories to tell right away. We were at a hotel, in a fancy dining place… The person representing the Hoppy videos, Grace, Marsha, and me were there. And Grace immediately started telling stories. Great stories! I said, “Grace, let me put the recorder up on the table, because I want this to be in your words, not mine, and I’m not going to be able to remember it all. That’s not one of my skills. So, after about two hours of her telling me stories, we’re getting ready to say goodbye, I’m standing up at the table, she’s getting up and I said, “Grace, I don’t understand. Why haven’t you done interviews before? All these people have written books and they have all this misinformation from the way he died to things that happened, you know, historically, in the films and everything…” And then, suddenly, Grace’s eyes started to water over and she went, “You know, Don. It always ends the same way.” I said, “Well, what do you mean, Grace?” And she started weeping. She goes, “Hoppy dies.” [chokes up] I can’t tell you that story without… I’m crying, I’m holding on to her like… [pauses] I think

Ragamuffins TM & © Don McGregor. Photos courtesy of Don McGregor.

writing. And, at the same time, I loved Kurt Vonnegut, Harlan Ellison, Michael Moorcock, and they all meant something to me—especially Vonnegut—meant something very important to me. Because of the humanism that was in the stories themselves. Gerber expressed the absurdity of it all, very smartly. And yours again was… Don: That’s funny. I remember Dean Mullaney saying to me one time, “Back in those days, whenever they did stuff on comic book writers, they always had you and Steve Gerber together, as if you were inseparable in that time frame when we were doing the books. And I remember this article where it said that Steve was the “Jewish Intellectual” and I was the “Anglo-Saxon Bard.” I remember Steve and I just laughing. “Really?” Because you don’t expect that stuff to be written about you before you’re doing the stuff… It’s not until you get out into the public media… Then suddenly things you never thought about, people are writing. Dean said, “They always put you guys together.” I said, “Yeah, and I think it’s because Steve and I are nothing alike as writers really and nothing really alike as people… except for one thing: you never think of a Steve Gerber script as anything but a Steve Gerber script, and I think it’s the same thing with Don McGregor… You can like it. You can hate it. But they’re our stories. They’re presented with our concerns and our priorities. And that isn’t necessarily everybody else’s priorities.” CBC: Distinct. You each had distinct storytelling styles. Don: Yeah. CBC: Did you know [fellow Rhode Island comics writer] Gerry Boudreau? Don: Yes. CBC: What was he like? How did you… Don: He lived up in Providence somewhere…? I remember being at his house one time. He dedicated a book to me. One of those he was doing with Walt Simonson because Walt was visiting and Gerry had done… CBC: Gerry had gone to the University of Rhode Island and Walter was at the Rhode Island School of Design. Don: He met up with Walt somehow. They did a thing together. One of those I know that Gerry dedicated to me. I don’t really remember how I met Gerry… It’s a long time ago, Jon. I remember his mom had Bell’s palsy, because I had never seen anything like it before. CBC: Did you get him work at Warren? Don: I didn’t have the power to do that, really. I guess they were familiar with stuff I had done at Warren. I told you some Jim Warren stories. The last time I saw Jim, you and I were at that convention in New York and you took that photograph. CBC: Actually, I think my wife took it. I’m in the picture next to you two. You and Jim both had the same idea at the same second.

Don: I knew what Jim was going to do, when he told you to wait ’til the count of three. I knew he wanted to do the All in the Family Sammy Davis, Jr./Carroll O’Conner bit. And so, when you went, “1, 2, 3,” I just turned my head this way so he’s kissing me full on the lips. He’s kinda startled and I said, “You still think I’m that kid from Rhode Island?” [laughter] You want to hear how I met Jim Warren? CBC: Yeah, I know. Don: Oh, you know the story. CBC: You told me at the East Coast Comic Con on the panel we did with Rich Buckler. [see pgs. 68–69] Jim was pretty pissed at you… Don: But, he took me out to dinner that night, too. CBC: And you met Billy Graham. Don: Jim Warren, Billy Graham, me, and Alex Simmons. But I promise you this, Jon: if I had gone up to Jim Warren and said, “Mr. Warren, I love your books. Your books are the best in the world. I’m so glad you write. I agree with you 100 percent,” I would never had been invited to dinner with Jim Warren that night. Wouldn’t have happened. Now I’m not right for being disrespectful, I can only plead ignorance. I didn’t understand this business. And I never would have named a writer or a story that, man. I picked out a story and it happened to be one that Billy drew. But I realized you can hurt someone’s career that way and I wouldn’t have done that if I had been part of the business and realized what that can mean. I’ve met the person since and I like that person… And I feeI really bad. I don’t think it hurt the them at all, but it could have. That’s just not the right way to go. CBC: I was interested in Gerry because almost nothing has been written about him and he passed away back in 1993, I think. He also wrote a bit of Gold Key Comics. I met him a few times. Don: When he died, I wasn’t seeing him then, Jon. I probably was in New York by that time. So… CBC: He got out of the business and he opened up a great video store, just top-notch. I think Les Daniels clued me into it. He was also writing features for local papers. Last time I saw him was at a Horror Writers of America convention, in 1990. Don: Oh, he had a video store? CBC: Yeah, he had a really good video store, maybe in North Providence…? That’s where I first saw Republic se-

This page: Gene Colan’s Ragamuffins #1 [Jan. ’85] cover. At left, Don kissing Jim Warren (though Jim intended to just kiss Don’s cheek); above, Don kisses Gene Colan; and Jim Salicrup air-kisses Don (whose cheek has a woman’s lipstick imprint). COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

rials. It was a superb video store. I knew who he was and talked to him behind the counter, but I didn’t have the wherewithal or presence of mind to interview him. Don: I think once I was in New York, you know, I wasn’t in contact with him anymore. CBC: But he’s a Rhode Island comic book person. There’s not that many of us. And Walter Simonson, he’s one of us, by way of RISD. Don: I always thought it was kind of funny that they would invite me to comic conventions all over the world, but I’d never get an invitation to Rhode Island Comic-Con. CBC: You and me both! That stupid, disrespectful Rhode Island convention. I’d only go because Neal [Adams], bless ’im, asked me to work his booth over a

Above: Don’s first comic-book production, Detectives, Inc., distributed at a Seuling comic con. Below: Spread from Don’s Detectives, Inc.: A Remembrance of Threatening Green [1980], with art by Marshall Rogers.

few years. Don: That’s kind of strange not to be invited. CBC: You were telling me! I was talking… They don’t invite me or let me attend as press. They don’t treat us with respect. Whatever. It’s all celebrities. The last time I was there, I saw Uhura, Nichelle Nichols. Don: I liked her a lot.

CBC: She was sweet, rest her soul. Don: I get to meet so many nice people, Jon, at the comic conventions. CBC: Was that a thrill to see your name in print for the first time when you sent letters of comment to Green Lantern and Fantastic Four? Did that help you along on your career as a writer? Was that like, “Yeah, I like that.” I remember for myself, seeing my name in print was like, “Holy smokes, I like this feeling!” Don: I was telling stories since I was five-, six-years-old… CBC: Who were you telling stories to? Don: Okay, now do you want to hear about the first time I really realized the power of being a storyteller? CBC: Of course. Don: So I’m living in the very Roman Catholic neighborhood, very Italian, very Portuguese. And I had a young friend named Anthony. And I used to play with the cowboy sets and tell stories, and Anthony would just watch me tell stories. So, one time, when I was at my house, because we didn’t have all the extra fancy toys that Anthony had. He’s at the house. And I have some story going on and I had a big Quaker Oats box, the round ones, you know… So I make it like it’s this big boulder going to roll down and smash the town. If it started rolling, it would kill people. Anthony’s watching and his mother starts calling for him to come home. It’s time for dinner or whatever. Because, in those days, kids just, you went out until your parents called you back home, when it was dark. You’re on your own until then. So, the mother’s calling and, every time he’d start to leave, that’s when I had that Quaker Oats box ready to tumble down, threatening to crush the whole town—”This is definitely it!” He couldn’t leave! He had to stay! He had to see how it was going to come out. And his mother’s getting angrier and angrier. CBC: Is she yelling for him?

Detectives, Inc. TM & © Don McGregor.

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Creepy TM & © New Comic Company, LLC.

Don: She’s probably four houses down the block… You can just tell her voice is getting higher pitched, but he can’t leave because he wants to see how it’s going to come out. And I remember thinking, “Wow! This is good!” That was the first time I experienced the power of storytelling. About getting my name in print: I had done a few other things; my first version of Detectives, Inc., which I was passing out copies to Jim Warren and other people on the panel at that Seuling Con, and so, when my first story got printed from Warren, “The Fade-Away Walk,” the first story I wrote to see print, in Creepy #40 [July 1971]. I’m back in Rhode Island and this package comes. And it’s Creepy magazine and my story is the cover feature! It’s got a Vaughn Bodé/Larry Todd painting (and there’s a story around that painting, as well!) Plus my name is on the cover along with the artist, Tom Sutton! Names of comic book talent were never on the covers of Warren magazines! How did that name get on the cover? I can tell you how it got up there: it’s because Billy Graham was the art director at the time. You know, we were friends. I didn’t know he was doing it. I didn’t know it was coming. One time Jim Warren called me up and said, “I’ve got to fire you, Don.” I said, “What? What do you mean?” Jim said, “I need Billy, and I don’t need you as much as I need him!” And then I was let go soon thereafter, fired off of Vampirella. CBC: Later on, you worked at Marvel and at Warren at the same time, correct? Don: No. CBC: Really? Warren bought your stories and printed them later? Don: A lot of them they printed later. Actually, a lot later. Some of the stories didn’t see print because Billy had taken my scripts and drew the first page of one and I have that original artwork somewhere. It’s much better than the one that saw print seven or eight years later. I think Billy just got busy with all these things. There’s another story… There was one Archie Goodwin saved me on. It probably was my third or fourth Warren story. And I did something a little bit about abortion. Because I’m always doing the same [controversial] stuff. And then I ran away from it because I already knew I was like… Even though I wasn’t in the business yet, I kinda like testing the waters at Warren to see what I could get away with and not really dumb-stupid. And Archie was great. He had my back. I had this really… I will never tell it to you, Jon. I was really dumb, stupid… It would haunt me to this day what I did in that script. Archie actually called me and asked, “Why would you do this to your story?” I said, “Send it back, Archie, and I’ll rewrite it tomorrow.” Thank God for Archie Goodwin. CBC: It was a real boner of a mistake…? Don: That story you’re not getting out of me. CBC: Come on! Don: No, no, no, no, no. I’ve managed to keep it… I’m 77-years-old now. It ain’t going anywhere. That one doesn’t get told. But it was really bad! CBC: Archie knew! Don: The odd thing is Archie probably forgot about it, but I wouldn’t have forgotten about it, if that story had seen print… I would have been embarrassed by it to this day. CBC: How did Sabre get previewed in Heavy Metal? How’d that happen? John Workman? Don: No. [thinks] Julie Simmons was there during that time…? [Jon nods] So I was going to various publishers… While I was doing stuff at Warren, but even before, I would come into the city trying to sell stories to [mystery digest] Mike Shayne, Cosmopolitan, Ellery Queen… I was really close to getting published in one of them. If I had stayed with that, within a half-a-year, I probably would have made inroads. CBC: This is the digests? Don: Yeah, the monthly magazines. I wasn’t doing anything outside [the usual publishers] except the Detectives, Inc. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

thing that I did with Alex. I also was playing around making movies. You could see comics I wrote and drew when I was 11-, 12-, 13-years-old… I think my sister had many of them when my mom died, if it’s around anywhere. My sister took a lot of that stuff… Everything was gone. CBC: Were they Western stories? Don: No, they were mostly private eye stories. I love private eyes. Again, one of the loves I have… I loved the Warner private eye stuff. I loved 77 Sunset Strip. I loved Bourbon Street Beat and Hawaiian Eye. CBC: What was Bourbon Street Beat? Don: Bourbon Street Beat was… After 77 became so big and popular, the advertisers said to producers, “We’ll take any private eye stuff you do.” So, although people called the shows “clones” (and in many ways they were), they had their own distinct appeal. They would have an exotic setting and an attractive cast and enough lead characters that they could alternate episodes and play around with it. And 77 Sunset Strip was based in Los Angeles, and [creator/producer] Roy Huggins was very, very smart; [lead character] Stu, once being part of the O.S.S., could do spy work over in Germany. And Bourbon Street Beat was set in New Orleans, so it was a much darker show. So I liked Bourbon Street more than Hawaiian Eye (though I really liked Connie Stevens… I thought, “If Connie Stevens sings in an episode, that’s all I need…. That’s all I need!) But Bourbon Street had a lot of really dark stuff and I loved the theme songs that they did. The lyrics for one of the Bourbon Street songs is, “Yesterday’s sorrow/ and hope for tomorrow/ all meet/ to the beat/ of Bourbon Street.” How long did it take for them to come up with that? It capsulized it all. Did they come up with it just like that? CBC: Who was the star? Don: Richard Long, Andrew Duggan, and Van Williams. CBC: Who played the Kookie Byrnes character? Don: That’s Sunset Strip. CBC: I know, but who played the teenager, the young heart throb? Don: Edd Byrnes. CBC: I know that, but in Bourbon Street Beat? Who was the young…? Don: There wasn’t. I think that’s one of the reasons that Bourbon Street didn’t

Above: Vaughn Bodé and Larry Todd cover, Creepy #40 [July 1971], of which Don was challenged by Jim Warren to base his first professionally published story. Don’s newfound friend, Creepy managing editor Billy Graham, prominently featured the writer and artist Tom Sutton’s names on the cover (see top left insert). Below: The next issue of Creepy featured Don and artist Rich Corben’s story.

This page: The private detective TV shows being produced by Warner Bros. in the late ’50s and early ’60s, including 77 Sunset Strip (above) and Bourbon Street Beat (bottom inset), had a formative influence on Don’s storytelling. Screenwriter/producer Stirling Silliphant (inset right) and his Route 66 were other big influences. At bottom left, below the 1958 Gunsmoke trading card, is writer/producer John Meston, whose half-hour Gunsmoke scripts were inspirational to Don only after he discovered the show on DVD.

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

77 Sunset Strip, Bourbon Street Beat, Gunsmoke TM & © the respective copyright holders.

go over. The other reason and I didn’t know this until someone was writing about Bourbon Street. Part of the problem was that it was set in New Orleans and they had a black band leader, because they included a lot of music. The reason you’re never going to see the Warner private eye stuff on physical media is because there’s so much music they would have to pay for. Apparently they can do it in syndication, but you can’t do it on physical media. The Baron bandleader character was Black. All those places on the Warner Brothers private eye shows, they’re real places, and the studio recreated the interiors, so when you’re looking at the outside of Sunset Strip and Dino’s—Dino’s really did exist. It was free publicity for Dean Martin because Dino’s was his restaurant. He had to love it: a free commercial every week! When I was a kid, like 13, 14, 15, whatever I was when my parents traveled cross-country with us, going to Disneyland, I said, “Fine, if we’re going to Disneyland, I don’t care, but we do have to go to Warner Bros. And I do have to go to Dino’s on the Sunset Strip. And my parents, God bless ’em, said, “We knew it wouldn’t be a problem if we took you there, we knew you wouldn’t be a problem, because you wanted to go there.” I love all that Warner stuff. CBC: How old were you? Don: Thirteen, I guess. 77 Sunset Strip started in ’57, so I would have been 12 or 13. It lasted for six years. But then, see, these shows inspired me to learn how to write. In those days, you couldn’t see the shows on demand, though they meant so much to me. I would tape record the stories and I would transcribe them. I might still have a couple I typed up somewhere. Again, they might be out in the [storage] cube. I’m not sure. I’d just tape ’em and try to get all of the dialogue down, but I think that helped me learn dialogue, you know, because they had a lot of… It’s funny, Dwayne McDuffie also was a big Warner private eye fan. I said, “Well, I know why I am, Dwayne, but you’re much younger than I am.” I guess he caught a lot of that stuff in syndication, I guess! I just loved those characters. CBC: I missed that stuff. I was born in ’59. But, years ago, you suggested I watch Route 66. I caught a whole bunch of that and, what a great show that is! Holy smokes! What a perfect sensibility for its time, too, when culture was changing. There was new attitudes coming in. There’s two free-wheeling guys going around the U.S. in a Corvette, doing their own On the Road thing…

Don: Traveling across the country, filming on location. You know, Stirling Silliphant would travel ahead of the crew. He would only be about three or four weeks ahead in another part of the country. Then he’d write the script and say, “Okay, go here for this location.” He said, sometimes just to play around he’d give them wrong directions and they couldn’t find where to film [laughs]. But Stirling was… he’s like Rod Serling in terms in television. I was never a big Gunsmoke fan. I don’t really like the later stuff that much, but the half-hour Gunsmoke…? God, they’re incredibly adult, and mostly written by the same person, John Meston. And, because they have such a unified vision, just like Rod Serling, just like Stirling Silliphant, you would say this guy really belongs up there. I finally saw them only because they went on to DVD. If they hadn’t gone on to DVD, I don’t know that I would have seen them. CBC: What seasons did they go for a half-hour? Don: The show was on for a long time, so the first six to eight years…? Gunsmoke, along with Wyatt Earp, were considered the first adult Westerns, you know. I didn’t catch any of the earlier Gunsmoke until they were on DVD. I know Dean loved them. And Dean would like… the storylines, Jon! There’s one with a woman who meets a stranger on a train and she comes into town and some cowboy starts manhandling her, trying to get familiar with her. The guy she was with on train comes and stops him. This is all done in one 25-minute story, by the way. Somehow they get together, now they come to Dodge, and they’re going to get married… A lot of folks, they don’t know anything about the woman. They think she’s run away from a bad marriage and her husband’s somewhere back East or whatever, and there are all these rumors about her. This guy’s coming to town and they think it’s her husband. At one point the woman gets shot and when Sheriff Matt Dilllon asks, “Who shot you? Did you have a husband back East?” She said, “No, it was my brother.” She had been having a sexual relationship with her brother! Who would expect this in a Gunsmoke? And I gotta pull back and reassess where I see those Gunsmoke episodes in terms of people breaking barriers at the time. CBC: Did you have a desire to work in episodic television? Don: I wanted to write for any people who would give me the freedom to write the stories I wanted to write. I wanted to do it all, Jon. So, when the chance came to do the film in the ’80s. See, the second Detectives, Inc. wasn’t supposed to be about domestic violence; it was supposed to be about the bombing of abortion clinics. And I had the title: A Horror of Burning Places… And that was my next Detectives, Inc., but when the chance came to do the movie, I knew I wasn’t going to have the budget to go around blowing up buildings, so I had to come up with something else. And then, when I

Detectives, Inc. TM & © Don McGregor. Photo courtesy of Don McGregor.

did, I think [Eclipse co-publisher] Cat Yronwode said, “You should do a comic adaptation of the movie.” And it made sense cause one could promote the other… So I did it and I have no regrets doing that. At one point, I didn’t have enough pages, you know. I was going to cut the scene where Ranier and Denning talk about their private lives in terms of domestic violence. I told Dean, I said, “I don’t care if I have to pay Gene [Colan] to draw those pages. I gotta have that scene. I can’t live without it. There’s no sense in doing the book.” It’s not that I don’t want to be paid and be paid well, Jon. I work hard at what I do and I give the company my best effort, whether it’s for one of the big outfits or an independent, whatever it is, that’s irrelevant. I owe the best and everything I’ve got for that project, but I can’t just write it for the money. That’s not enough incentive. At one point, I was going through the break-up with my ex-wife and she was going with a guy studying law… who was involved in a comic book store, but also studying to be a lawyer… It was a turbulent time. When the opportunity came to do the movie, that’s when I came up with the domestic violence plot and I put that into the comic. And Dean gave me the extra pages that I needed. It was more about guns. It was one of those things where real life intrudes on what you’re writing about. A lot of Detectives, Inc., was about whether to use a gun, because he had to kill a kid in the first book. I was editing that sequence where Alex Simmons is playing Denning. (Billy Graham is in the movie, too, by the way.) And Alex as Denning is talking about why his reaction is having to shoot that kid. While I’m working on it, I get a phone call. I’m living in Brooklyn at the time. This is mid-afternoon, three or four o’clock. And I had sent Rob out, while I was working with on the video stuff, to take some soda bottles to the recycling store to get back the deposits. Somebody called to say, “I’ve got your son here. He’s been mugged, attacked.” He was walking the middle of Avenue U, which is a big avenue in Brooklyn and, in broad daylight, these four thugs put a gun to his head. They had him give whatever he had and they said, “If we find any more money on you, we’re going to kill you.” And they reached into his pocket and they found a quarter. Fortunately they had went behind the store and a person who lives in the house there was sitting on his porch (or whatever) and saw it going on and started shouting at those kids and they took off. Then I get this call that my son was being threatened at gunpoint with death and I’m working on the scene about guns… and you feel there’s some kind of synchronicity going on. I don’t know what I was supposed to learn from it, but you know, it’s just profoundly striking. CBC: How old was Rob? Don: Probably about 11 or 12 something like that, maybe 13. I don’t know because he’s really young in the movie, but the movie took close to two years to film, because of the logistics of it. We didn’t have enormous scads of money to do it with. And I never realized how much work post-production was going to be. And we’re using half-inch tape. God, if had already been digital…! But I wouldn’t trade the experience for anything. I created a role for Marsha. That’s how [the character] Deirdre Simmons came about. Because I thought, if I’m going to have a chance to do this and Marsha’s as good an actress as I know she is… She had been written up in the New York Times, not me! (Though I have a bunch of times since.) Back in those days, she did an off-Broadway show, about the Irish rebellion, about a prisoner in a jail cell, in Ireland. So I wrote the role of Deirdre for her. She wanted to play the wife that was victimized. And I said, “No, I know you can play the victim. Now you gotta play the hero.” And it was another investment for you to do it and working with the people. It was great. So many stories, just about the craziness when you’re filming a movie in New York City. CBC: Did you enjoy living in New York City? COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

Don: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. It was like the home I never had, but everything was there, Jon. The comics were there. The books were there. The movies were there. Everything was in New York. But we were really fortunate to move out of Brooklyn when we did, because both Marsha and I both had our health issues, and there’s no way we could use the city the way we did, when we were healthier. If you’re living at the end of Brooklyn where we were, it’s an hour-plus just to get into the city. Say, two to two-and-a-half hours to go back and forth. If you’re going to go some place, it’s still a walking city. Yeah, we’ve got 24/7 transportation systems and the later it gets, while they don’t close like the Paris Metro might, you get locked up down there. Still, if you want to find hell on earth, Jon, go down into a subway system three levels down on a hot July night, ten minutes after midnight. Because here’s the deal: ten minutes before midnight, trains are still coming frequently. If you miss the ones that come after midnight, good luck with that. It’s hotter in the tunnels down below than it is upstairs. If you have to spend an hour in that kind of heat, you’re going to say “I’ve found hell on earth.” So, it’s a good deal… There’s certain things I really do miss about New York City. I like the fact that you can order great take-out food whenever you want. It’s 10 o’clock at night, “Hey, get me some Japanese food and bring me some hot sake.” And

Above: We haven’t the foggiest notion what the context is for this photo of super-suave Donald Francis McGregor in recline represents, but venture a guess it might be taken in the spirit of James Bond 007, a character long admired by the writer.

Below: In the 1980s, Don wrote and directed a low-budget movie based on his Detectives, Inc. graphic novel, A Terror of Dying Dreams [1985] (or vice versa!), starring Alex Simmons as Ted Denning and Richard Douglass as Bob Rainer (seen in a screenshot below). The Detectives, Inc. film trailer is available for viewing on YouTube

Above: Sample of Tim's illustration work for the magazine Ares. Inset right: Tim designed this RPG character for TSR, with his illo gracing the packaging.

Below: Keith Parkinson, fellow TSR alumni, who Tim calls a brother, in a promotional portrait. Tragically the renowned illustrator/game designer passed away at 47 in 2005.

you can still get it! That’s the great thing. I don’t know how much the pandemic may have altered that, although I’m sure it has, to some extent. Those are the kinds of things I miss about New York. CBC: Do you get a taste of culture here at all? Don: Yeah, we go to plays. Marsha did a couple of roles here at the Gamm Theatre, where the Greenwood Inn is. She’s done some stuff there, but that was before the pandemic hit. I’d been invited over to England to do a convention, which was great. I met a lot of nice people over there. At the same time, I had been invited to do the convention in Spain. George Pratt was at the one in Spain, so, I got to meet George again, because we hadn’t seen each other in years. That just added to it. At one point, Marsha had gotten sick while we were there, and she stayed in the hotel room and I went out to do… they wanted me to do some kind of panel. In Spain, I didn’t see a comic until the second or third day that we were there. Everything’s in separate, huge buildings. I used to show films or videos or do stage shows or whatever. And another place would be for entertaining. Every time you were going from one event to another, you’d have to hike across these huge plazas, and it was really hot out. I remember saying, “You need to slow it down, guys, or I’m going to be face

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Don McGregor portrait © Luigi Novi/Wikimedia Commons. Black Panther TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

This page: Ye Ed’s pic of Don showing a book spread taken in Sept. 2022. Inset right is Luigi Novi snapshot of Don, 2015. Below, from Black Panther Annual #1 [Apr. 2018], “Panther’s Heart” splash page, written by Don and art by Daniel Acuña.

down here.” And I’m doing this stage show and they called me off in the middle of it. And first I thought, “Am I that bad that I’m getting the hook halfway through?” And then I thought, “Maybe it’s Marsha, because she’s sick back in the hotel room.” Someone says to me, “You’ve got to go present an award, Don. The award show is going on now. There’s some kind of comics award show. I said, “I don’t speak Spanish! How am I going to present an award?” So we hike across the plaza and I meet the head guy. He’s very nice, but I said, “What am I supposed to do?” And he said, “I’ll never tell.” So we’re sitting down in the front and people are getting their award. Most of the awards… the statues are up on the stage, on a table. And they’re down to, like, three awards. And I remember turning to Dave and I’m like, “If I’m getting an award here, you better videotape this…” And, sure enough, they gave me a lifetime achievement award and it was a total surprise! I hadn’t expected it. And there’s something about, again, when you go around the globe you’re in different places and people recognize who you are… Again, the kid from Rhode Island…. CBC: You contributed within the last few years to a Black Panther Annual [#1, Apr. 2018], correct? Don: Yes. I turned it down to begin with. But then I think I wrote something about, because people were asking about it. They had asked me, but I first turned it down. CBC: Why’d you turn it down? Don: The reason my feeling was I don’t want to come back to the characters after such a long time with just eight pages. My feeling is whatever I do has to have a connection with my entire body of work… I’m not interested in just coming back just to get my name on a story again. But then I had this idea. They hadn’t done anything with Monica, so I thought, “I know what I want to do. This would be a story for my readers. It would mean something to them. It’s not just to come back.” And, at the same time, they said they would let me dedicate it to Rich and Billy… because I needed all the reasons in the world to come back and do this. So that’s how I ended up doing the story and thank God I got a really good artist on it. And people seemed to like it and enjoy it, so that was fine. CBC: In the last bunch of years, what have you been doing for writing? Don: Trying to stay alive. [laughs] I don’t know, Jon. It depends. It just depends on what’s going on. Right now, in fact before, yesterday I managed to get the artwork for the second Zorro book that’s only eight months late (and not because of me). The script was written long ago. I’ve never even met the people doing it. They did a Kickstarter for it and the first book came out, but somehow, I gave them a 28-page script somehow and they only did a 18-page story…? So the story got cut off. And, as you probably know, Jon, I time everything. There’s one thing that I hope is clear in this interview is nothing happens just by chance. A lot of it stays very organic because I change things as I get up to it if I think something makes it better. On the other hand, it’s pretty much planned for what the format is. And, I’m well aware of the format or I don’t know what to do it until I know what the format is, because I have to think about the structure for that story. Ending at 18 pages was nothing I was thrilled about. Because there was a reason I ended it at 28 pages… and I felt it now suffered from what I see in a lot of comics. People pay $4 for a comic and they can read it in five minutes, and there’s hardly anything there, so why come back? They’re

Zorro TM & © Zorro Productions, Inc.

better to just wait until it’s collected in a book. So, now you have 10 pages intended for the last one has to be put in as the beginning of book two… I choreograph all the actions in the story. I’m looking for a new way… whatever I can come up with that’s gonna present something in an interesting way. Certainly not something I’ve done a hundred times before. CBC: Who is publishing your new Zorro? Don: American Mythology. I want to have the opportunity to place the copy, because I realized, after my days at Marvel, that things get shifted as you’re going from original artwork-size down to print-size. The eye just tracks differently. So I would handle everything and make sure I knew exactly where the copy was going. And I would have it shrunk down to print-size before I even sent it to the editors or the printer. The only way was to make more work and more time-consuming, but then it wasn’t like you just swing blind at a ball and hope you’re connecting; you’re giving it more of a chance it’s going to be what you hope it to be. CBC: Correct me if I’m wrong: you did a Zorro daily strip? Don: One of the top favorite things I’ve ever done. I gotta show you that book. This is in my top five things I’ve ever done, Jon. [goes searching and returns with a German hardcover collection of his Zorro comic strips] Look at that book, Jon, and tell me that isn’t a great looking book. CBC: This looks nice, Don! Wow. Oh, look at that. It really looks old school, huh? Don: That’s cause it really is old school… I love this stuff. CBC: Look at that. That’s really wonderful. Don: So I ran into Johnny Romita at the comic convention when I was doing this thing and Johnny, of course, had done the Spider-Man strip and he goes, “Don! How are you getting away with it? You change the panel orientation in the strip every day. How do they let you get away with that?” I said, “From the very first strip, John, I change it every day so the syndicate can never lock in and say this is what the strip is.” CBC: What do mean you change it every day? Don: Well, in other words, most Sunday strips are three-panel tiers. We change that up with one panel on top sometimes and three panels beneath, or one giant panel, or every which way in between. [points out a specific story] This one was really strange. It’s about a murdered Indian woman in the La Brea Tar Pits, and, by the way, there really was a murdered woman found there! Once I heard that, Jon, I thought, “There’s a story there!” I was always feeling my way with it. How much are they going to let me get away with? I had Zorro get hurt and was bleeding. How much blood are they going to let me get away with? COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

So, at the end of it, like there was this thing dealt with the Saldados being with the Indians… [points to Todd Smith and Thomas Yeates’ art] Look at that Jon! Isn’t that great looking stuff? And by the way, this chase scene has every stagecoach stunt I’ve ever seen in the movies! Doing things like “Now you gotta turn the strip that way.” Whatever gives me the best type for that thing crashing. Turn it on its side… CBC: Wow, that’s great. So Todd did the breakdowns? Don: Todd, yes, later on. Todd was great! He had a motion down and gave me every angle I asked for, Jon, and Todd could put this motion into it… We do get different inkers in there and all. CBC: Oh, then [Mike] Mayhew came in…. he’s really good. Don: There was stuff I didn’t know how much they would let me do. In the beginning they even let me show a mass burial of Indians from small pox, when they tossed bodies into graves. I thought, “Oh, they let me get away with it!” CBC: Do you know Pete Poplaski? Don: I know the name. CBC: He’s the world’s foremost Zorro researcher. He dresses up as the character. He lives next door to Robert

Above: Two terrific Sunday color Zorro newspaper strips from Jan. 2000, layouts by Todd Smith and finishes by Thomas Yeates, with words by Don.

Below: Sadly, this superb collection comprising a complete run of Don’s Zorro daily and Sunday newspaper strips, published in Germany, is not available in the United States.

Crumb in Sauve, France. Great guy, great cartoonist. Don: There’s a bunch of people that like to do that… like, really? [looks at book] What comic strip do you see do that kind of stuff these days? The things that I get to do…! Jon, I’m really proud of that collection. CBC: Yeah, it’s beautiful. Don: But very few people have it. So I think it should be printed here in the States. They’re out of their minds not to. CBC: There’s no collection in the States? Don: It’s done in Germany. CBC: What? How am I going to get one? You’re one who is known for your sheer volume of words in a story and you’re writing a daily newspaper comic strip? Don: Of all the stuff we’ve covered, I’ve never talked about newspaper strips. Even though I always liked comics but, it was really the strips in the beginning that really got me started… Take, for instance, Chester Gould’s Dick Tracy in 1948, ‘49, ‘50, when I would have been around six or seven. I used to go to my grandfather’s place and he got only the Sunday Daily News and he would stack them up. A lot of times, we would be there for a long period of time and, when we did, I would pull out all the Sunday sections and find the comics. So I only saw the Sundays and, as a story-teller—even at that young age—I was like “What happened during the week, in between the Sundays?”

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Lady Rawhide TM & © Zorro Productions, Inc. Sabre TM & © Don McGregor.

Above: Clockwise from top left, among this quartet of pix courtesy of Don, is the proud grandfather with grandson Nik, who made a hand-drawn copy of a Detectives, Inc., cover by sight alone!; Don, during a ’70s visit to Europe, jumping for joy in the Alps; for whatever reason, the Dauntless One risks all in a shark’s mouth; and (from left) Lauren, Don’s daughter and mother of his grandsons, Don, and grandson Kris, at the 2020 San Diego Comic-Con. Kris generously loaned his Black Panther hoodie for Don to wear for a convention BP panel.

I understand that some people just read the Sunday strips, but, as a writer, I try to get a reader back on a daily basis. But that Sunday strip’s gotta work by itself, and it’s also gotta lead to the following Monday. And some people wouldn’t get to see the Sunday, so the challenge is can I make that Sunday episode work without repeating anything? I always loved the strips. Probably my favorite comics were Milton Caniff’s Terry and the Pirates, Hal Foster’s Prince Valiant, E.C. Segar’s Popeye… I can’t say they influenced me in terms of style that much, but in terms of using comics as storytelling. Gould was at the top of his form between 1948–52, with characters like Crewy Lou and Spinner ReCord, and the strips were incredibly violent. There’s one where [Dick Tracy’s baby daughter] Bonnie Braids… she’s not really kidnapped. She’s just a baby in a car that Crewy Lou steals, who doesn’t know that Bonnie Braids is there. But then the baby wakes up and is crying, and Crewy Lou smacks the baby to shut her up! One Sunday, it would be Bonnie abandoned in the car with wolves jumping on top of the car, trying to get in and eat the baby. And then next Sunday, it’s Dick Tracy coming up in the helicopter with Sam Catchem and they get into the car, which is all torn up and the backseat door is open, and the backseat is all dark and bloodstained, with wires hanging out, all ripped and torn up, and Bonnie Braids isn’t there! “Whoa! I gotta see what happens next!” So doing the Zorro strip, I really, really liked doing it. CBC: Was it a tough deadline? Don: No. I mean, honestly, it’s continual… The thing is, I could write the dailies in about… it really depended where I was in the strip. If I was researching, then that might take longer. I could do two of the strips in a couple days, do the Sunday, that left me room to write and do other things. But that wasn’t always the case. Because, the thing about the strip, you stop writing it and, all of a sudden, you’re out of it almost immediately. So, it was easy to do, and I had good people to work with. CBC: I recognize that Caniff’s Terry and the Pirates had story arcs lasting maybe three months, maybe four each… What timespan did you have to adhere to? Don: I didn’t. [laughs] CBC: Than what were you supposed to adhere to? Don: I would imagine three months. My stories had a lot of continuity between them. I knew the stories had to be set in an earlier time than the Topps Comics Zorro though, because, as successful as Lady Rawhide had been, her character was a problem—but not with Zorro Productions. There was no way to include her; it would have been a continuous fight if I had used Lady Rawhide. Because, in comics, often—I’m sure you know this, Jon—female characters are allowed to look sexy, but they’re not really allowed to be sexual, and Lady Rawhide obviously was. There was a lot it could cost her as a woman in that period the stories were set and in the place that she was at. Just for disobeying a father’s instructions or even a brother, she could be locked up in a convent. But I had a bigger problem when I was doing a story of Lady Rawhide about child molestation. I had done one story [serialized in Overstreet’s Fan #7–10, Dec. 1995–Apr. ’96] about it called “Nights Spent Unalone,” because [editor] Jim [Salicrup] was having me do a lot of special features for Wizard and other magazines. So I had to come up with these separate stories, and that one seemed worth doing. Then, when Jim wanted me to do another one, I decided, “Let’s do the opposite of the first story about some guy molesting his daughter, with the kind of scars and terrible consequences that can have, and instead have a storyline where a woman character accuses a guy who is cheating on her of molesting a child and now the people are going to kill him.” I had a sequence where Lady Rawhide was in an alleyway and Machete comes up behind her. Now, Machete

Lady Rawhide TM & © Zorro Productions, Inc. Photo courtesy of Don McGregor.

had lost a hand, but nobody knows it, because he has an artificial hand he can manipulate and it’s all wired up, but it’s got ruffled cuffs, so you don’t notice it, but it’s dead—and, at one point, Machete comes up behind her and he’s got her in a stranglehold and his fake hand is off, because he can put weapons inside it. And I had three panels going down the page and then a center panel that was all the way and it was just her chomping down on Machete’s arm, thinking the pain will make him drop everything. And, in those three panels, she realizes that’s not gonna save her. He didn’t react to her bite because it’s just like dead flesh to him. It isn’t going to give him any pain. Okay, so Zorro Productions got this woman who came in—she had worked at Marvel Comics in the Bullpen, where she might have been some kind of assistant editor, not that I ever had to deal with—and she sold herself as an editor. So the publicity guy for Topps starts getting these crazy messages because she thinks when Lady Rawhide chomps down on the arm—it was an entire vertical panel— that Lady Rawhide was somehow engaging in oral sex! [Jon chuckles] She was getting more hysterical and she told me that Lady Rawhide doesn’t deal with this kind of subject matter… Don’t tell me! I created Lady Rawhide! I wrote every single line the character ever spoke! So don’t tell me what Lady Rawhide can or can’t, you know, say or do… (It’s funny because [artist] Esteban [Maroto] actually changed my page layout, he didn’t use the long panel. He went and did it some other way. And Jim said, “Your way is better, Don.” And he contacted Esteban, “Draw it the way Don has it described.”) So it turns into this big thing. And I know what is coming in the series with [future serial] “Other People’s Blood” which is going to be a problem because half the book has two women in bed together. So, if the Machete scene is a problem, what will happen with this sequence? This is not going to work for me. So I think about it over the weekend and I decide I gotta tell Jim that I have to quit the book. I can’t write this book if my hands are tied! If this is what they’re going to get upset over “oral sex” that doesn’t even happen in the story, there’s no way I can do this 11-book project, “Other People’s Blood.” So I have all these reasons to tell Jim why I can’t do the book anymore and I go in to see Jim. (And this is why I love Jim for doing things like this.) I start telling him about how I agonized over the whole weekend. “Jim, I can’t do this book anymore.” I may get two sentences in, and Jim goes, “Wait a minute. Are you telling me they’re not going to let you do the book you want to write?” I said, “Yeah, I can’t… How am I going to…” Before I finish, Jim picks up the phone, dials Zorro Productions, and tells them, “If Don can’t write the books he wants to write, we’re out of the Zorro business.” How many times does a writer have an editor-in-chief who will back him? And they backed off on everything! There was never a word again. CBC: Wow! Far out. Can you talk about the Dynamite situation? What happened? Don: Well, I don’t really know what happened, Jon. Somewhere along the way, Zorro Productions apparently made a deal with Dynamite. But I wasn’t really following this development. Apparently, they published a series of Lady Rawhide books—I have never seen them, but they exist— but I don’t know anything more than that. Previously, I had made a deal with Jon Gertz, the head of Zorro Productions, back when I started this stuff with Topps, and Rob went with me to San Francisco, where Zorro Productions is based. And I said, “I don’t want to create a bunch of characters and I don’t get anything out of it. That’s what happened with the Black Panther, that’s what happened with Killraven and with Luke Cage.” So we made a deal that, if they used my creations for toys and things like that, I would see something out of it. I hadn’t seen anything on that. I had been contacted to write an introduction for some COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

book that Dynamite was doing. They didn’t contact me. Sandra Curtis at Zorro Productions said they wanted me to write an introduction for a collection of Mike Mayhew’s Zorro Matanzas. (Mike is tremendous. I really like Dwayne Turner and Mike Mayhew, you know, I picked them… They were really in the beginning of their careers when we collaborated and they were great. Again, I’m really close friends with Dwayne and his family and I’m really close friends with Mike. You notice my long-lasting relationships are almost artists… I knew the artists knew I was serious and I knew they were serious. And you tried to put out the best comics we could.) So, anyhow, she wanted me to write an introduction, but I hadn’t even known they were going to reprint any of that stuff. I don’t think they wanted me to know it, because then they would have to pay me something thought they could get me to write stuff for free on it. No, I’m not doing that, Jon. Then, the next thing I know, these books are coming out. Somebody sent me a thing… and they were writing about the Lady Rawhide and Zorro stuff. And that’s when I wrote the thing, saying “Is Zorro Productions doing what big comic book companies do?” And I took off to go to the hospital to see Marsha and then I got back that night at 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning and suddenly that was all over the place. CBC: You went viral. Don: It went viral. And there were two things that happened. Michael Davis wrote that piece for ComicMix website, “Don McGregor: Why black people love him” and Mike Netzer over in Israel drew an illustration of my daughter and me, Lauren, who used to dress up as Lady Rawhide, and he had dialogue balloons like, “Treat my dad nice, Nick.” Once that came out and there was, like, big arguments going on up on the internet. And it was, like, “Aww, man!” I had Marsha like really sick at the time. I just don’t need this extra thing in my life… But for these people to come from far-flung places and a lot of other people writing things, so Barrucci felt he had to call me… And you know what he tells me? He says, “Don. I didn’t know you were so popular.” But it changed when, I think really, the final straw was when Michael Netzer did that illustration. Especially because they had Lauren in there as well, so they had to deal with it. It’s affecting the family…. all the people. CBC: Have they made things right? Don: In what way? CBC: I don’t know. Don: No, nothing. Aside from calling and saying, “We

Top: Ever-supportive Mike Netzer (known to oldtimey comic book fans as Mike Nasser) drew these commentaries featuring Lauren and her dad (above) regarding a shortlived controversy. Below: Joe Linsner Lady Rawhide cover.

This page: Clockwise from above is Don go-karting with his father in 1980; baby Don (nicknamed Sandy) in his playpen; Sandy with Uncle Donald and Grandpa Doucette; Don as one-year-old; Don with wife Marsha, daughter Lauren and her sons, and Don’s son Rob; Don’s parents horsing around; and father and son hugging on Don’s wedding day.

grimacing. I said, “Mike, he should be smiling now. Right now he’s in ‘the zone.’ Because that’s the way Zorro is! This is like one of the most upbeat positive characters of all the costumed heroes What didn’t I like? I did this issue where Zorro is chained inside the mouth of a dead whale that’s decomposing on Los Angeles beach and, by the way, that really did happen… not people being chained inside the mouth, but the idea of the whales dying on the beach, that’s really true, so I thought, “How about I chain Zorro in this whale’s mouth?” The one thing I always felt about Zorro is he gets out of everything too easily. I want to educate the readers that, in this series, nothing’s going to be easy. So, for the whole issue, he’s trying to break free—and the smells from this dead whale’s mouth!—and he’s trying to free himself and the blood is pouring and the tide is coming in! In the beginning of the story, it’s low tide and, by the end, it’s rising up to his nostrils, and there’s blood all over the place…! CBC: Did you finish your story about Heavy Metal? I don’t remember. How did Sabre… ? Don: Sabre’s always been complicated. When I had the heart attack, I had said to Marsha, Sabre was always a difficult book to get from one stage to the other. You would have thought Detectives, Inc. would have been, but those are always pretty easy behind the scenes. But, for some reason, things would get really complicated with Sabre. I said to Marsha, at one point, how Ragamuffins helped destroy Sabre… Unless you know the story or are experiencing it, you’re like, “Really? Seriously?” And I said to Marsha, something like, “Sabre, this book is breaking my heart.” And not long after, I had the heart attack… but, in terms of writing, it was a great time. I was writing the second Nathaniel Dusk, they made me the editor, so I was getting paid as an editor and that meant I didn’t even have to worry about writing pages. I was out researching the book. Everything in that book, down to the weather, whatever day it says it is, that’s what the weather was. CBC: When did you have the heart attack? Don: When I was doing Nathaniel Dusk. CBC: The mid-’80s? Don: Yeah. I was 40. I got divorced when I was 30, and I had a heart attack #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

All photos courtesy of Don McGregor.

didn’t know that you were that popular and I’m sorry it happened.” CBC: So, you got an apology? [rubs fingers together] And an apology is green, baby! Don: What can I say about it, Jon. I had more important things to worry about in the long term. I had Marsha to worry about because this was not something that was going to be short term. It was something that neither one of us knew exactly where it was going or what was going to happen. And thank God for friends like Frank Lovece, who would say, “Don, why don’t you stay overnight? Why don’t you stay over at my place?” So I’d stay at their place because it was very close to the hospital. We were living at the end of Brooklyn. You know, driving in the city is never easy. It’s crazy… I would be getting in, I think a lot of times, 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning. So, I’m really appreciative of those people. It means a lot when people come to your defense and feel you’re worth taking the effort to do that. CBC: Do you own Lady Rawhide? Don: No, that belongs to Zorro Productions. Like I said, I have a thing with them if they’re using Lady Rawhide… They had a toy line based on the “Zorro’s Renegades.” And you know “Zorro’s Renegades” has the same format as “Panther’s Rage,” a long-form thing. But I was given room… I had 28 pages every month! The demand was intense, every month. Jim allowed me to be in on everything. So he had artists try out for it. When I saw Mike Mayhew’s art, I went for a lot of stuff. I had big double-page spreads. Zorro jumping, turning, coming toward the audience. Another was Lady Rawhide: he had to be able to draw great looking women and was able to draw horses. I had four different things to make sure that I was, like, covered, that the artist could actually pull this off. And when I saw the kind of work that Mike put into it… There was another artist who was a little interesting, in terms of technique, but he was never going to give it that look that Mike would put in it. In the beginning, because Mike didn’t have a lot of exposure to Zorro, I sent him some [TV’s Zorro] Guy Williams stuff and I told him, “I know everyone talks about Batman and Zorro, but just remember that Zorro is the antithesis of Batman: he believes in everything he’s doing, and he does it with great joy and zest, and he knows he’s doing it for the right f*cking reasons.” Because I remember there was a page where he had Zorro

All photos courtesy of Don McGregor.

This page: Clockwise from top left is Don on horseback; Marsha posing; Don playing with daughter Lauren; daughter and father after Don received the 2015 Bill Finger Award for Excellence in Comic Book Writing; Marsha and Don exchanging vows on their wedding day; the happy couple in the early 1980s; the pair share a kiss on the night of their nuptials; and father Don and son Rob (about five here) carving a pumpkin.

when I was 40. So, when 50 rolled around, Jon, I said, “Hey, God, listen. I got it. It’s an important time, you don’t need to give me anything extra… I got it. I got it. Don’t give me anything extra, please!“ [chuckles] CBC: I think maybe you misheard my question: I asked about Heavy Metal, which had a promo of Sabre. How did that come about? Don: I think [editor] Julie [Simmons] saw it… They would have contacted me, because I don’t think I would have contacted them. I don’t really remember, or maybe because, I think, I had been over to Penthouse magazine, because I was thinking about writing some stuff for them. Penthouse was, at one point, thinking about doing comics. And, if there was an adult line of comics, I would have definitely been interested in doing something if it could have been worked out. I don’t really remember how I met Julie, but I guess when they saw the Sabre stuff when I talked about it, then they contacted me about doing Sabre… How Sabre came about was I had developed a character and I was trying to sell it. Someone told me, “Who’s going to buy a book about a black guy with a lot of guns?” That’s where the comic book industry’s head was often at in those days… Nevertheless, I was trying to sell it and Dean came over to my apartment in the Bowery, where I showed films. Either Dean and I are watching I Spy or 77 Sunset Strip—because I still have the films downstairs—and I showed him a drawing for Sabre. So Dean called me the next day and said, “Don, I want to publish Sabre.” I said, “What are you talking about?” He said, “I want publish Sabre.” (This was before Eclipse.)“You don’t publish books, Dean.” “I want to start a company and I want Sabre to be my first book.” I said, “You know I want my rights to everything, right?” “You got it.” “Nobody can change anything. The only person who can change anything is me.” “You got it.” And I had three or four other things, and Dean said, “Yeah, fine, you got it.” And I said, “Maybe you better come over here and we better talk!” I told Dean, I can get the people. They’ll come on my name and they’ll trust me. I’ve not done anything to these people not to trust me in terms of… CBC: The readers? Don: Well, the talent, whatever talent was going to come to work on the book. I said, “But you’ve got to deliver. Because if you don’t deliver, first COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

thing they’ll do is come to me. And then I’m going to have to come to you and I don’t want that to happen. So you got to deliver on everything that you said you would.” So Dean comes in and everybody was paid more than they would have gotten if they were doing it at Marvel. Artwork was going back to the artist. All those things. The book took two years to produce. It almost didn’t get finished. And Dean had to handle it. So, when Heavy Metal came along, everybody else had been paid. Heavy Metal wanted to do it and I said, “No.” He’s kept his word to everybody. He’s been investing money in it for a year or whatever it was. You keep your word, Jon. People can’t keep their word. And the artist is mad at me. Because I won’t give it to Heavy Metal. But Dean Melany kept his word to everybody. And Dean knows I would never screw him on his first attempt to get into comics… or anytime. We worked a deal out so Heavy Metal could print an excerpt. And that’s about it. But, at the same time, they would be promoting the book, so it ended up being basically a win-win situation for everybody. CBC: That was Dean and Julie working something out, or… ? Don: Well, I think I worked something, then talked to Dean, then Dean talked to them, and I don’t remember all the specifics of what happened there, but I know why I picked the pages out. What eight pages can I pick out that would have a semblance of cohesiveness to it. CBC: It’s interesting, you can see the ads… there’s an ad with a big figure by Paul Gulacy and it talks about the coming graphic novel that Dean’s gonna publish. And you’ve got a coupon there with the Heavy Metal address. Did Heavy Metal distribute it? Don: I don’t remember anything about that. Maybe they just sold copies of it? They had some kind of deal worked out with Dean? I don’t remember that. CBC: That was his first thing? Don: Phil Seuling first contacted Dean and asked why were we charging $6 for a book. In those days comics would go for 25¢ or 40¢, something like that, but obviously we weren’t doing a comic book package. Dean asked me right from the get go, “How are we going to do this? What is this book going to be like? Is it a regular comic?” I said, “No, if we come out as a 63

Above: Beginning this issue, artist Ken Meyer, Jr., is Comic Book Creator’s official Color Portrait Artist, with a likeness of an issue’s cover-featured creator appearing on the last page of every interview! Here’s a pair of Dauntless Don McGregor images. Thanks muchly, Ken! Visit Don McGregor on the web on Facebook and at his website

www.donmcgregor.com

Below: The relationship, both personal and professional between Don and Dean Mullaney arose from a fan’s appreciation for a writer’s work in the letters column of Jungle Action. Today, the former Eclipse publisher is working with Don to produce the Ultimate Ragamuffins tome..

you and I would be sitting here talking about it years after the fact. As crazy and eccentric as Joyful as a character, the real world often competes with you as a writer, and the real world tops you! Jesus, I didn’t think it could get that crazy! Apparently, I was wrong! [laughter] CBC: ’Tis crazy… Do you want to continue writing? Do you have ambitions for other series? Don: Do I have ambitions…? [laughs] Right now, Jon, I am working with Dean to put the Billy Graham stuff together and also compile the Ultimate Ragamuffins. Those two books I really want to do, because Billy’s artwork, in some of those early books, was destroyed by terrible coloring. The computers could never get all of it out because the colors, especially on his face, were so dark that they merged with the black lines, and you can’t get the color out without losing Billy’s artwork. But now we can. On top of that, there’s the Ultimate Ragamuffins, which were all originally ten-page stories—sometimes they went 20, if they were two-parters. Every story would have a scene when they were Ragamuffins, which was about fiveyears-old, six-years-old, and there would be a flash-forward to different points in their lives, but eventually, if I had gotten to do enough of them, I was also going to do things that would take you back in time to when their parents were five years old and that would be 1910s and ’20s. And really you’d get a sense of not only what shaped the parents, as well as the kids, but what parents think they’re teaching kids and what kids really learn, but also look at America, where it changed in a century and where it didn’t. So that was one of my favorites to do. Twenty pages have been written and drawn titled “The Packrat Instinct,” so you know what it’s about, because we’re all packrats, Jon! And when Dean first read the script, he said, “Don, you know there’s not going to be a dry eye in the house when they read this story.” And Gene did a beautiful job on it. And it was supposed to come out and then the Eclipse Monthly magazine folded before that story would see print. So then, Dean was going to put it in some publication, then that didn’t happen. Oh, so, the 20 pages somehow got lost—of Gene Colan artwork—couldn’t be found. And I tried for years to find that artwork. And some of it was sold up in Canada, some in Mexico, some in various places floating around California, but you could never track it all down. But, not too long back, Dean found film on it. So, this means when we do this Ultimate Ragamuffins, it will have 20 pages of unpublished Gene Colan Ragamuffins artwork! And its gorgeous stuff! CBC: Is IDW doing it? Don: No, just Dean. And then we’re going to do Sabre together. I want to work with people that I like working with, Jon. I haven’t come this far and I don’t have the endurance to have to… When they were originally talking to me about coming back to the Black Panther, I said, “I don’t want to spend 40 percent of my energy fighting with you guys. I want to put it into the books.” So, with Dean, there’s never going to be any of that. People are talking to me right now about doing a Sabre movie. I’ve heard that before. If it happens, it’s great. But I’m just taking it a day at a time, Jon. Just a day at a time. #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Portraits © Ken Meyer, Jr. Dragonflame TM & © Don McGregor.

regular comic, I feel, no matter what we do with it, it’s just going to be like another comic that month and I want to get more of a sense of permanence about it.” I used Ed April’s Cartoonist Showcase as an example and said, “I want to do it album-size on really good paper.” And Ed had used that format for his books and that’s how that came about. Dean went back to metal plates, because companies were using plastic plates to print the artwork. And he said, “Now, Don, you can print off those initial pages and it’s just like having the original artwork” cause it’s so… and the paper was so good… printing was… I asked at one point, I want to reprint a page from it and he said, “Shoot it from the book. That’s as good as shooting the original art. So that’s all we’ve ever done and nobody has a clue. CBC: [Notes a name cited in Sabre] That’s too bad, Dave Kraft died of Covid… Don: Yeah. He was great because he did the Dragonflame books. Dave was even involved with Sabre. He’s got a credit line on the Sabre stuff. CBC: Beautiful. It’s gorgeous. So, it’s a Black guy who likes guns and who has a lot of guns. Is there more to it? Is Jimi Hendrix what Paul brought to it? Don: Paul always liked to bring, in many of the strips, performers, celebrities… He did a lot of them. There was a horror story where James Coburn is the lead. CBC: For Marvel Preview? Don: As with most projects, I didn’t have just one thing in mind to do what I did. But part of it certainly was… I don’t think people will get this at first glance, and they may not even get it after I say this, but Sabre was sort of my Prince Valiant. Where it’s a love story between two people who are just trying to get through the craziness of the world. It’s just set in the future rather than the past. But then you’re following their lives, when they both have a family. I know where it was going to end, and I know it’s where nobody expects. Because once I get there, I’ll probably end the series… But that last story that José Ortiz was drawing was the first time I thought I was doing a Sabre graphic novel. It was going to run 500, 600 pages, so it was the most ambitious work. One of my favorite villains I’ve ever created was Joyful Slaughter, who (in Sabre) was running for U.S. president in 2020. [Jon chuckles] So I really wanted that book to get reprinted in 2020. You know, when I wrote it in 1979 or ’80 (whatever; in that time frame), I certainly had no idea that

The author of all of “Panther’s Rage” corrects a false narrative Commentary by DON McGREGOR Sadly, you may have read the claim I print below. Sadly, I have to write these words and state that this statement is not true. There are a number of convention panels on the Black Panther following the success of the first film. This claim is printed as a part of the individual cast history:

Black Panther TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Mr. —, who was friends with Mr. McGregor, got to be a peripheral part of the creative process, discussing story ideas with the writer and creative designs.

This not true. I never told anyone, including the artists, Rich Buckler or Billy Graham, any future ideas for stories. They knew the present book they were drawing. I did not even tell people that “Panther’s Rage” was going to be a serial. While I often discussed page designs that were in my head with both Rich and Billy (and many of them were used), I did not seek and never used page designs even with the closest of my friends. And I especially never sought, nor had, any story ideas from anyone other than myself when creating those books. I learned early on that if I talked about what I intended to do and it got out to editorial, much of what is in the series would not have been allowed. I know all the decisions I made that dictated for me what the approach to doing the series would be. Initially it was to be 10 chapters, but the story grew as I was writing it. Despite knowing the themes I hoped to present within each single issue, I always tried to keep in mind the major themes I hoped to accomplish with the series. I did not discuss my idea with anyone, including the person that this piece says did. I don’t want credit for anything I did not do. But I am damned if, at this point in my life, I will quietly go into the good night, and I will fight for my work. The person felt my writing about this “wounded” them, that he was misquoted by a reporter. I’m not sure an independent reporter would be so familiar with specific comic terminology, but even if somehow that could be true, the person never went and told people, “This is not true. I did not have anything to do with the ‘creative process’ of ‘Panther’s Rage.’” I have always given credit to the people who have worked with me, which is why many of my closest friends are a high percentage of the artists I worked with. I will always make sure to write about Rich Buckler and Billy Graham and Gene Colan, and their loved ones know that, because I always talk about them. There is, for me, a sense of déjà vu about this. Every once in a while, a meme will appear stating that Jack Kirby did the “Panther vs. the Klan” storyline. That is not true. I know Jack would never want credit for what he did not do. When Billy Graham got my first script for “Panther vs. the Klan,” he called me, concerned, to make sure I really wanted to do this, because as he said, he lived in Harlem and the Klan would not come for him, but I was out in Flushing, Queens, at the time. I wrote the stories. COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

I am thankful for the people who came forward across the world to correct this false narrative. And thus, I feel I need to make sure that it is clear that all the storytelling ideas and execution for “Panther’s Rage” came from me. No one else.

Above: Billy Graham’s pencil art for the splash page of the “Black Panther” feature in Jungle Action #10 [July 1974]. In 2000, Don inscribed the art thusly: “To Sam—I miss Billy Graham so much!”

I had no clue at the beginning of the day I would feel the need to write this letter. 65

Don McGregor and Rich Buckler’s 2016 Con Panel Below: The original Rich Buckler (pencils) and Frank Giacoia (inks) cover art for the very first installment of writer Don McGregor’s epic “Panther’s Rage” serial in Jungle Action [#6–18, Sept. ’73–Nov. ’75] (recently described the 13-part serial as “an adventure so huge, it ranged across the savannah, into the deepest jungles, and over snow-capped mountains.”) The 2018 movie adapted numerous elements from the saga.

[On April 16, 2016, a discussion panel took place with writer Don McGregor and artist Rich Buckler (who passed away in the following year) about their collaborations—and more!—at the East Coast ComiCon held in the Meadowlands Exposition Center, in Secaucus, New Jersey. Thanks to con organizer Cliff Galbraith for assigning me as moderator and to Greg Biga for a timely transcript assist. After introducing Rich to much applause, before I remember to turn on the audio recorder, our conversation starts with him answering a question posed about notable peers who established professional careers in comics at the same time as the artist entered the field.—Ye Ed.]

Rich Buckler: There were lots of notable fans, but that’s how I met Dick Giordano, Neal Adams, Al Williamson, and just a host of people. Comic Book Creator: And you were friends with other young aspiring artists, as well…? Rich: Yes, of course. That was my network… Arvell Jones, Keith Pollard…In Detroit, we didn’t all know each other, but there was something going on in Detroit. Maybe it was something to do with the water. [chuckles] I don’t know exactly, but there was high creative energy that had much to do with comics. CBC: And the fanzine scene: were you involved in that? Rich: I was publishing fanzines since I was 16. I did Super Hero fanzine [#4–6, 1966–68], a name I should have thought to trademark. [chuckles] That would have been real smart. [chuckles] And I did Intrigue [#1–2, 1966], which was a companion to Super Hero, and it featured my amateur comics and the amateur work of other up-and-coming comics creators, some who became pros, but most did not. CBC: So your aspirations really from early on were to be a professional comic book artist? Rich: And also that I believed in the maxim, “publish or perish.” So I was determined to be published. And nobody was hardly offering jobs, though [pioneer comics fan and fanzine editor] Jerry Bails gave me my first professional assignment. I did a wraparound cover for him for one of his fanzines, featuring Golden Age characters. And Jerry kind of mentored me, so I was involved in the publishing early on. My main motivation at first was to publish myself, but then I just had this great network with all these great friends… Alan Weiss in Las Vegas… just people all over. Back then, there was no internet, so it was telephone and writing letters. And, actually, that’s how all this got started, okay? Who knew it was going to grow into this! CBC: So you would mail out the fanzines to other publishers…? Rich: I was everything! I was a one-man operation, I addressed them, I went to the post office, and I mailed them. CBC: But the network was trading fanzines… Rich: Nobody was making money off of it. Everybody was doing it for the love of comics. CBC: [Addressing the audience] This is Don McGregor. Let’s hear it for Don. [applause] Don, let’s talk about your early years. What got you interested in the comic books? Don McGregor: Hopalong Cassidy. I loved Hoppy and he was a major star in cowboy Westerns in the 1950s. And the first time I got an allowance, I got a dime, and I was six-years-old, and I had to buy the Hopalong Cassidy comic book. In 1950–51, you know, William Boyd [the actor playing Hoppy] was just as big as Star Wars. When his newspaper comic strip started, in The Daily News, [Boyd made a New York City public appearance] in February, and a quarter of a million people lined 42nd Street, and he was shaking hands from 9:00 in the morning until after midnight. So I had to have that Hopalong Cassidy comic book, I had my dime, and I got it! I came home and my father goes, “What is this? What did you do with your allowance?” [enthusiastic] “I got this comic book, Dad! It’s great!” And then he said, “Well, that’s terrible! You just spent your whole allowance!” [Rich chuckles] There must have been a new issue out the next week, and I gotta have that Hopalong Cassidy comic! And so, when my dad came home, he said, “Well, what did you get with your allowance this week?” #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Jungle Action, Black Panther TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

Moderated by JON B. COOKE

Photos courtesy of Don McGregor. Jungle Action, Black Panther TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

“I got another one Hopalong Cassidy comic!” And my dad said, “Well, that’s the end of your allowance for a while!” [laughter] I used to tease my dad when we got older and say, “I’m writing comics for a living, Dad. What you going to do now?” CBC: Besides writing letters for DC and Marvel letters columns, were you involved in early fandom? Don: Not while I was up in Rhode Island. I did advertise the first Detectives, Inc., probably in 1969, but I don’t know how I knew about [fanzine/adzine] Rocket’s Blast/Comicollector, but there’s a full page ad in one of them for Detectives, Inc. Rich: I did work for RB/CC. That was the place to be. [to Don] I thought you were in touch with everybody, but I didn’t know about you though. Not then. CBC: But you were a prominent name in the letter columns, right? Don: Yeah. The thing I didn’t really understand about the letter columns… I had gone to a convention—and this is before I was writing professionally—just as a fan… (Oh, I got a great Sinnott story I want to tell! I wish Joe were here! Anyhow, I’ll save it…) and I met Steranko—and I love Steranko’s work! And, you know, I’m in the letters pages of almost every one of those “SHIELD” [Strange Tales] issues. I just loved what he was doing. And so I came up to Jim’s table—people were around Steranko getting autographs— and I had his [Nick Furys] bound in hardcover… CBC: You had them bound? Don: Yeah, I had them leather-bound. I was pretty serious about the stuff I loved. I just loved it dearly. And I went up to Jim to get it signed, and he said, “You’re Don McGregor?” And I’m thinking, “How does Jim Steranko know who the hell I am?” Well, what I didn’t realize was—and you could bet your boots on this—that, in those days, the writers and the editors read the letters, the artists read them. So, one thing for sure was that everybody saw the letters. And you didn’t have to, you know, kiss ass; you could write anything you wanted it. But they would see all of our letters, though the letters might not all get published. And Jim said, “I’m gonna give you my room number, so come on up tonight, and we’ll get together.” And that’s where I first met Alex Simmons. And Jim did magic tricks that night and we get to be really good friends. CBC: [To audience] If you get a chance to look at the Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD Omnibus, they include the letter pages in there, and you’ll just see how often Don is in there. [to Don] When did you determine you wanted to be a writer? Don: I was writing at six-, seven-, eight-years-old. CBC: Did you ever see it as a viable way to make money? Don: I would never have spent the time I did on those books if it was all about making money. It was love… From the earliest memories I have, I loved having a story told to me or telling a story. And that was a big motivator. I mean, I was living the stuff that I saw on television, the movies, read in comics, read in books… that was as real to me as the real world that I was actually living in, and I was doing everything I possibly could to make that real. And some of the things were very crazy, and my mom had a real right to worry. Because I was trying to act out like the Republic serials, you know! I’d lay down in the middle of Main Street and a car drive over me! And it didn’t work. It just hit me right in the head. That probably explains a lot. [laughter] CBC: Rich: how and when did you break into the business? You’re in Detroit and the industry is in New York. Rich: While I was still living in Detroit, I went on one of my many trips to New York to try to get work. So, lots of times, I was turned down. The last trip I went on, I visited DC Comics, and Dick Giordano showed my work around—they always had this process anyway: you don’t go and talk to anybody; somebody goes and talks about you and shows your work to others. They represent you. So Dick showed the work around to the editors, and came back to me, and he said, “We don’t have anything for COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

you.” And I couldn’t believe it. Then I thought, “Well, the whole trip was a waste.” And I’m standing there… I think I just didn’t move for five minutes or so. And Neal Adams was sitting in the same office—I visited him earlier—and he was drawing his pages. He must have noticed I was near tears. And he said, “You know what, Rich? Give me a moment, okay? Don’t go away.” And he went and talked to Dick, and he came back with Dick, and they both said, “There might be something for you.” And Dick went and got Murray Boltinoff, an editor whose name probably nobody recognizes… [notices Jon shaking his head] Well, of course you do; that’s your job! [laughter] Murray was very skeptical, but Neal said, “I’ll ink it.” So they gave me the story, which was a script by Marv Wolfman. Marv Wolfman and Len Wein were always hanging around DC Comics. I wondered, “Who the hell are they?” These were kids that would do anything. They got coffee, they would shine your shoes… they would do whatever just to be there and be in the environment, and break into the business. Well, apparently that was a breakthrough for Marv, too. So that was my first job. It was called, “The Symbionts” [House of Secrets #90, Feb.–Mar. 1971]. I took the assignment, went home, drew it, sent it in, and everything was great. Except for one thing, there was no more work. I couldn’t believe it. (By the way, it took Neal about two-and-

This page: The year before his passing, artist Rich Buckler shared comic convention panels with lifelong pal and sometime collaborator Don McGregor. Above is the two with Ye Ed and cosplayer Bill Johnson at the 2016 East Coast ComiCon. Below is Jungle Action #14 cover referred to in the discussion here. Bottom is the creative team and their respective partners, Mila Buckler, and Marsha McGregor at the same comic book convention. Above: Final page of Neil Gaiman’s “Jack in the Green” Swamp Thing tale drawn by SRB and Totleben. This is SRB’s last job for DC. Below: Dave McKean cover, Neil Gaiman’s Midnight Days [Feb. 2000], where the story appeared.

Above: Don looking over Billy Graham’s penciled pages for the second chapter of the “Panther vs. the Klan” storyline in Jungle Action #20 [Mar. ’76]. Below: In his formative days back in Detroit, where the artist was active among comics fandom in the ’60s and early ’70s, Arvell Jones edited the fanzine, Fan Informer. Arvell was mentored by Rich Buckler, who helped his friend enter the comics industry, including having Arvell do background work in Jungle Action!

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Photo courtesy of Don McGregor. Fan Informer TM & © the respective copyright holder.

I am? I’m in New York and every company I’m going to, they’re giving me work. And, if they’re giving me work, they sure as hell will give you work!” He came out to New York within out two weeks and did the same the same number that I did: he didn’t know where he was going to stay and what was going to happen, but he came anyway. All of us young guys, we managed to find each other, network, and help one another other out. So that’s basically how I got into business. CBC: And how did you get into business, Mr. McGregor? Rich: Oh, and I didn’t know Don at the time, but once I got rolling at Marvel, there was this new guy, and by the time we met, that was it! Because the energy between us was just right. Yeah, it was great. [points to editor Jim Salicrup in the audience] And this guy, too! [chuckles] He’s one of the young guys who I knew where the energy was just right. Jim Salicrup, one of my favorite people to work with. Don: Me, too! Jim is just one of the best people. And his favorite of my stories was an early Warren story, “The Night the Snow Spilled Blood” [Eerie #38, Feb. 1972], and I’m not sure, but we should ask him this: Jim, do you think I peaked then? Was that my best story? [laughter] CBC: Jim says, “No, the best was yet to come.” Don: Maybe I plateaued then. [chuckles] a-half years to ink it. In fact, I visited him at his home and CBC: Was it Jim Warren who gave you your break? helped finish up many of the pages so that they could get Don: Jim Warren was a great character and I had a printed. [chuckles] But God bless Neal! Neal and Dick, they lot of good times with Jim. Remember I had gone to that got me in. convention and met Steranko and Alex Simmons. Alex and I sent some inking samples to Jack Kirby over photoI got along because we loved many of the same things. You copies of his work and I sent some photocopies of my know, we loved comics, we loved old TV shows, we loved own pencil work. And Jack called me up one day… I was movies, and we liked to do stunt work. So we started to do floored… My mom told me, “Hey, Rick, someone named films together. When I was about 16 or 17, I found that if you Jack Kirby is on the phone for you.” [chuckles] Wow, I can write the movie and you star in a movie, and you direct the never breathe again! [laughter] I got on the phone with him movie— and he said, “You know, your inking is not what I’m looking Rich: Then you’re Fred Williamson! [chuckles] for. This is not going to work. But your pencils I really liked Don: —then you win the fights and the other thing that and there’s a lot of promise there. If you’re ever in New was infinitely preferable was: you always got the girl. And York, Rich, look up Stan Lee and tell him I said to give you a I thought, “Well, this is infinitely preferable to real life, so job. Now, we talked a little more, but I don’t remember any I think I’ll devote my life to that.” So, when I was started of the rest of the conversa- writing the Detectives, Inc. movie, because it was originally tion. But, after that, in my intended for he and I to portray the characters in a film, mind, I’m going to New York, then I thought, “Let’s do a comic.” and I’m moving to New York. CBC: Was it intended as a finite story, a graphic novel, or I’m not just going to visit. an ongoing series…? So I remember calling Don: I already had a dozen stories planned. Some would up Dick Giordano and just have Denning and Rainer only do walk-ons; some had a asking Dick, “Would I have fantasy motif… a better chance of doing CBC: So, what was the idea? You wanted Detectives, Inc. comics full-time if I moved to be a comic book series? Were you doing it just for fun or to New York?” And he was were you looking to have it published? very diplomatic in his anDon: We printed it ourselves. We had it printed three days swer. He said, “I can’t really before going to the convention, and collating it, putting it answer that directly, but, together… Alex had to come up to Rhode Island to finish yes, your chances would be drawing the pages. And we took it to the convention, but a whole lot better.” Now I we didn’t want to have to sit down on the table and sell put the two things together the damn thing! And, in those days, you could actually hire and I thought, “Alright, this somebody to sit at your table and sell your book. But I didn’t is a good bet. Let me go for take Detectives, Inc. to sell it myself; we let somebody else it.” So, on a loan of $200 sell the thing while we went around during the convention. cash from my sister, I got Detectives, Inc. had a bright, Pepto Bismol-pink cover— on a plane and moved to just like glow-in-the-dark pink—and I went to one of the New York. And I got work panels and Jim Warren was on it with a bunch of other peoat Marvel and I got more ple. And I noticed that, at a panel, there’s always a bunch work at DC, and I got work of people sitting around when one of them is talking, so you everywhere. could give them something to look at for something to do. I was so excited that I And, with the Pepto Bismol-pink cover, everybody is seeing called up Alan Weiss. And I the damn book! And Jim started a big spiel about how his said to Alan—I don’t know comics are going to be so much better than everybody if people know who Alan else’s. And, at that time, he was thinking of going to just mail Weiss is, but he’s done a order and therefore he could include subject matter that lot of comics, and he draws would not be allowed on newsstands and in the stores. ten times better than me—I And this only goes to show there was no plan, Jon. said, “Alan, guess where If you think there was a plan to any of this, allow me to

IMalice, Ka-Zar, Black Panther TM & © Marvel Characters, Inc.

immediately disabuse you of that notion. So I raised my hand and Warren goes, “Yeah, what do you want?” I said, “Well, if that’s true, Mr. Warren, why are you publishing the kind of crap you’re publishing?” Jim Warren goes ballistic! He is so upset! CBC: Now, this was a rough period for Warren, at the time. They didn’t have a big budget and were publishing some pretty poor stuff. Don: So, after the panel was done, Warren comes racing up to me. He’s really mad. He goes, “Who in the hell are you to ask me a question? To say a thing like that? Name one story—one story! ” Now, I then did something that, to be honest, if I knew the business and understood the business at the time, I would not have done it this to this day. But I needed to name a story. But if I understood then what goes on in this medium, I wouldn’t have done it, because it can really hurt other talent. And I was kind of wrong to do it— Rich: Was it one of the stories I wrote? [laughter] Don: I’m gonna be very careful here. I know the story. Billy Graham drew it. Alright, so I named the story. Jim Warren said, “Okay, come here with me, hotshot!” (And, for the rest of the weekend, by the way, I became “Hotshot Charlie.”) In those days, comic conventions ran movies almost 24/7. So we’re in this big, darkened auditorium and, with the movie being played, I can see that Jim is looking down the aisles trying to find somebody and then he calls this six foot-four black guy, who comes walking out. And Jim goes, “Billy Graham, this is Don McGregor. Don McGregor, this is Billy Graham. Don, tell Billy Graham that his work is crap.” Rich: Oh sh*t. [laughter] Don: I said, “Wait a minute! I didn’t say the artwork was crap. I said the story was crap. People are trying to watch the movie and it becomes this big thing! Jim is shouting, “I can’t believe you said that.” Well, Billy and I became very fast friends. CBC: And collaborators. Don: Well, yeah! Because then Jim Warren says, I’ll tell you what, kid: I’ll take you to dinner tonight.” So we go out for dinner with him, Billy, Alex, and I. And, the next morning, I come walking into the convention, and Jim Warren is standing and he’s holding a painting and he’s got covered. And Jim says, “Hey, Hotshot! Come over here! You think you’re so hot and you think you’re everything, don’t you? I’ve got a Vaughn Bodé painting here. I’m gonna let you see it. I’m giving you 10 seconds and I want you to come up with a story.” Jim uncovers the painting and starts a countdown—”Ten, nine, eight, seven…” And I’m a deer, frozen in the headlights. “Six, five, four…” But it doesn’t matter because, when it will get to one, I have no story. I have no idea, but I know I’m gonna start talking. Whatever it is, I’m going to bluff my way through and give him something. Jim goes, “Three, two, one, zero,” and he covers the painting up and I say, “Okay, these two guys are going…” But Jim interrupts me and says, “Listen, kid, I got professional writers working for me. This is a Vaughn Bodé painting! Do you thing I’ll give it to a nobody like you? But, I’ll tell COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

you what: I’ll let you submit a story to [editor] Archie Goodwin and we’ll see if you got anything.” So, at Warren, I was really spoiled, because Archie Goodwin was one of the best editors in the world. He saved me from embarrassing my stuff with a story where I did something really stupid. To this day, it would embarrass me if it had seen print as originally written. He said, “Don? Why would you do this in the story that you’re so serious about?” And it’s because I was dealing with abortion in, like, my third story in comics. I had thought, “Okay, I’ll touch upon abortion and see if I can get away with it.” The first story Warren published of mine was “The Fade-Away Walk,” drawn by Tom Sutton [and inspired by that Bodé painting]. I put everything in my directions: continuity shots, reverse angle shots, point-of-view shots, and periscopes. And Tom did everything I asked of him. So, along with Archie’s editing, was I was spoiled at Warren or what? So I thought, “Oh, this is the way it’s always gonna be!” [chuckles] CBC: So you were up and running. Rich, how did you meet this gentleman over here? Rich: I met this guy who was talking nonstop and had great stories, and he was just a totally interesting person! And his stories were so different that I just wanted to draw everything that he wrote. I don’t remember a specific time

Above: Villainous Malice was created by Don and Rich, appearing in Jungle Action #8 [Jan. 1974]. Below: Among the sample pages Rich sent to Jack Kirby was a very Kirby-esque sequence featuring the Black Panther and Ka-Zar being challenged by a mighty big gorilla!

Above: Image Comics house ad promoting the first issue of the 1963 series, Mystery Incorporated [Apr. 1993], with art by Rick Veitch and Dave Gibbons. Below: Detail from 1963 #2 [May ’93] cover, SRB pencils and Veitch inks.

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Photo courtesy of Don McGregor.

when I met him, but it was up at the Marvel offices. I believe, Don, you had just moved to New York, but you didn’t have a permanent place…? Don: Right. I was staying with Alex Simmons at the time and then you got me out to the Bronx— Rich: I got you your first apartment. (Neal Adams got me my first apartment, by the way.) So it was just the thing to do. Don: And I used to come over at night when we worked on the Panther together. And I should make the point that Jungle Action was a book that everybody thought was going to fail. They gave me a book that was to include reprints of old jungle comics and I think we had two-thirds of a book to do the “Black Panther” material. But jungle books weren’t known to sell. [Joe] Kubert had just done Tarzan and it didn’t sell well. CBC: Do you have any idea why they decided to go with the title, Jungle Action? Was it just to flood the market? Don: Well, they already had the ongoing title and they had a budget apparently for this book… Rich: They had these titles that would showcase series. The first Deathlok wasn’t in Astonishing Tales #1 or #2. And then they had this press time [at World Color Press] that was booked, and they had to keep the presses going for a certain amount of time. They also knew when they could afford to change their roster and kill this book and add a new book. So, often, if they cancelled something, it wasn’t even necessarily because it was good or bad… Don: They didn’t really want Rich on this book because it wasn’t expected to sell… CBC: [Spots someone in audience, but still addressing Don] And what was the name of the book, Don? Don: Jungle Action. CBC: And what was the name of the character? Don: [Slightly perplexed] Well, Black Panther, Jon… CBC: [Addressing cosplayer Bill Johnson in the audience dressed as T’Challa] Hi! Don: [Excitedly] The king of Wakanda is here! [audience applauds and panel poses for photo with Bill] Rich: My first comic book samples for Marvel Comics were the same ones that Jack Kirby saw, by the way, which were Ka-Zar and the Black Panther together. So it’s been the Black Panther for me, from the beginning! CBC: Smile, Rich! [photos taken] Don: [To Bill] T’Challa, it’s good to see you up here! CBC: [To audience] King T’Challa will be on the on the silver screen in July 2018. Don: And he’ll be leaping everywhere! CBC: He will be first appearing in Captain America: Civil War. [to Bill] Thank you very much! Don’t scratch me. [laughter] Don: [To Bill] That’s a great costume! Will you forgive me for putting you in the mouth of a dinosaur? [to audience] The bullpen actually had that cover—with T’Challa in the mouth of that dinosaur—and it was up on my wall in my office for a long time, and someone had a word balloon coming out of T’Challa saying, “Goddamn you, McGregor!” [to Bill] Bill, can you take off your mask? Is that possible? This is a great costume, by the way. [to audience] Give Bill a big round of applause! This is Bill Johnson! [applause] I just wish you would do Sabre… [mutters] I dunno, I think Sabre is getting

short shrift… Bill, do you have any questions for us or anything you want to say while we’re all together? Bill Johnson: I appreciate the fact that you guys brought humanity to the character, and that he wasn’t just a stereotype. I love the humanity that these guys brought to the story and treated him like a real individual. And they talked about points of view and things that were going on in the world, and it wasn’t just a cursory glance. And the fact that these guys were the first people in America who presented an image of an African king and a nation that were more advanced than Europe or white America. Because everything before this, everything we ever saw involving Africa was just Tarzan and jungles and savages. Don: I asked them about the [Jungle Action] reprint book, “How can you be reprinting these racist jungle stories in the 1970s, with all the white gods and goddesses saving the natives?” And I wasn’t even thinking of T’Challa; I just wanted to create a black character who and when they decided to put new material in it. But they really didn’t think it through when they said, “We’re going to put Black Panther in Jungle Action and it’s set in Wakanda.” That meant the cast had to be an all-black cast! So you can’t continue to have white people in it… Rich: Oh, so that’s why you did that! [laughter] Don: And thank God for Rich because Rich was the one who wanted to draw, it. They never would want Rich to be on that book. And Rich was the one that said, “No, I want to draw that.” And so we got to do the books that we were doing, because without Rich Buckler, we would have had to take whatever artist was available at that time. And I got really lucky because, later on, they also brought Billy Graham as artist on the book. And Billy and I, of course, were really good friends with that time. But I had no say in it. Why did they bring Billy Graham in? Because they only really put Black artists on to Black characters. [to Rich] You know, I’m telling the truth. I’m not exaggerating… Rich: [To Don] You also you just touched on the reason why the Jungle Action stories were reprints of that crap, because that was basically the attitude at the editorial offices there and in our culture at the time. CBC: In the Marvel Age of Comics, Billy Graham was the first African American artist to work on the super-hero books. That is so, right? And the Black Panther was the first African hero in American comics, right? Bill: Exactly. And I love the fact that, you know, they made him richer than Tony Stark. And, you know, Tony Stark and Captain America needed him. And it just gave America another view of the Black experience, this one not from the U.S., but from Africa. And it was great. Plus he was a good guy and a smart guy Rich: He was a hero and a role model. CBC: It was really remarkable to read them as they were coming out because you guys were creating what was essentially a graphic novel. [to Don] How many chapters were in “Panther’s Rage”? Don: There were 13 chapters, including the epilogue. We only had 13 pages per issue to sustain the audience for two months. So, in other words, if you didn’t write a character in a story, that would be four months when people didn’t see that character, and if you kept them off two issues, that’s half-a-year—a long time—to ask the audience to get emotionally involved with all the characters, whether W’Kabi or Taku or Monica… CBC: You had such a rich cast of characters who were very distinct! Rich: We took what we got. We’re lucky to have what we had what we had and ran with it. CBC: But you had to leave the book… Rich: Well, I had… I can’t remember what the reason was exactly why I had to leave, but probably I got too busy. But “Deathlok” happened shortly after and I was credited as editor on that book, so I just did whatever I wanted. CBC: You were very cinematic with “Panther’s Rage,” right out of the gate. You were doing what you could call Steranko-esque layouts… Rich: I was a big-time movie fan, and comics, for me, are movies on paper. I get to direct… Don: When Rich lived in the Bronx, I would go to his house at night and I would do poses and model for him. T’Challa would climb up (and I’m not going to show you the pose, because I’m 70 and I’d probably kill myself if I did)—I would climb up on the desk and pose like this. “He has to be like this, Rich!” Rich: And I didn’t use any of that… [laughter] Don: Even with the colors, I would say the moon is never just pale yellow over Wakanda; it’s always a primary color… Rich: I was making color notes that in the artwork! Don: Yes!

Rich: And we were just so totally immersed into what we were doing. Don: Yeah, well, it was in a total love of doing those books. [to Bill, who is leaving] Bill, thank you so much! [applause] CBC: And I was a huge fan—and not just because he’s a short Rhode Islander like me—of Don McGregor… Don: [To audience] Jon told me he thought I was doing drugs when I did those stories! [chuckles] We got into a fight about it one night. Rich: I’ve been accused of doing that many times… CBC: What I meant is that I think that you embraced a certain liberation ethos coming out in the ’60s, where you had gay characters, for instance, if not described such explicitly, but they were obviously gay— Rich: [To Don] You didn’t tell me the characters were gay! [laughter] CBC: Though in context to the story, it didn’t matter if they were gay; they just were. And, in “Killraven,” you had them travel to Battle Creek, Michigan, and [chuckles] you’re alluding to Kellogg’s cereals in the story! Why wouldn’t I think you’re doing drugs, Don? Rich: [To Jon] Was he? Jon: He says no! [laughter] Don: The thing you mentioned about the Battle Creek, Michigan, story: I did it because I was really provoked and inspired. CBC: [Chuckles] By a cereal box? Don: I really liked doing the cereal story. Although I’ll tell you a great story about it very quickly. Gene Colan drew that issue. I have no idea why, but Gene must have needed the extra work that month—although Gene was suddenly scheduled like he was going to be the regular artist on the book. Later on, about three or four years later, Gene and I did a story about a character called Hodiah Twist, a kind of Sherlock Holmes character set in the 1940s. While he was penciling the story, he would stop and tell his wife, “Look what’s happening now!”Adrienne told me he never read ahead in the script, so he never knew what was coming next! With the “Killraven” story, he was the first one who drew the serpent stallion and he drew Carmilla Frost nude. Gene always insisted the first thing we ever did together was “Hodiah Twist” and had no memory of doing “Killraven.” I could show him the book and actually hold it in front of him. Even two days before he died [on June 23, 2011], sitting in the hospice he was in, he said, “No, Don, I never worked on that book.” But I said, “No, Gene, your name is right here! But, okay, Gene, whatever you say!” CBC: Hey, Rich. Can you can you speak to the development of Deathlok? Rich: I’m not sure what you mean by that question, “Speak to the development of Deathlok.” CBC: How did you originate the idea for the character? Rich: Deathlok was an idea that I had. I just thought it was time to do something new, and I was of the mind that this would last, whatever it was, so I put a lot of thought into it. But it was Roy Thomas who gave the go-ahead to actually put it in the book. I remember when he came up to me, he said, “Rich, that character that you came up with…? Marvel put in a bid for The Six-Million Dollar Man and we didn’t get it. So we’re gonna go with your concept, but there won’t be a Deathlok #1; it’ll be in Astonishing Tales.” I said, “That’s close enough! Let’s run with this.” There was literally no opportunity to do new things like this, to just create something out of whole cloth, and plug it in at a major comic book company. So I just jumped at the chance. That’s the short version. CBC: In a nutshell, can you describe Deathlok? Who is he? Rich: He’s a soldier from Detroit, basically my alter ego… me in a nightmare dream, where everything that’s wrong that I saw at the time (and I still do, sort of) with reality in the universe—and what have you—just got a whole lot worse. So then I just, you know, how you can have a bad COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

day, I created a character here who led a bad life. He got everything taken away from him and then he was desperate to get it back. In fact, that was his prime motivation: to get back what he had before and to realize what his humanity is. That was at the core of the concept. The rest were, you know, hey, you put a snazzy costume on him. He was sort of a nightmare version of Captain America. So that’s why his costume was red and blue (it was going to be white, but it didn’t look right, so I put in the yellow). It seemed to speak to the direction where some of our crazy science stuff was going at the time. Now, it’s reality! We have super-soldiers and probably have mind-controlled soldiers. We probably have cybernetic soldiers and they’re connected to computers. CBC: And was it one of your favorite assignments that you got to work on at Marvel? Rich: That’s a broad question. My goodness. Probably Avengers, Thor, Fantastic Four… but I could go on and on. Probably my real favorite was “Black Panther” because I started out being such a big Black Panther fan. I ran across Black Panther for the first time in Fantastic Four when he was created by Jack Kirby. CBC: What is it about the Black Panther? Was it what you said, that he’s a hero? Rich: It was what Bill said. He’s a king. He’s a real hero. And not with super-powers and not with a fancy costume, but like a concept that tied in with a mythology that was from Africa. And it was just all very fascinating for me, which, by the way, then Don expounded upon in numerous ways that were totally enthralling… and I’ve just run out of words to describe it… [chuckles] CBC: You’re from Detroit, Rich. There’s a large African American community in Detroit… Rich: Really? [laughter] CBC: Did you see that component as being important within its time, within the context of that period…? Rich: Let me tell you: my friends from Detroit, Arvell Jones and Keith Pollard, Desmond Jones, and, Aubrey Bradford, were all Black artists who came to New York. And I got them an appointment to see John Verpoorten at Marvel Comics, and they all had an interview, and they all got in. I’ve done this from time to time for various people. But, after the meeting, what was remarkable is, after they left (and the meeting went well), John took me aside privately and asked me, “Rich, do you have any friends from Detroit who are not black?” And I said, “John, let me answer your question: do you got any friends who are not white?” I mean, this is just how it was. And I did have some friends who were white, a couple of token white people. [laughter] My friends were, like, really friends. That’s what I go by.

Above: For whatever reason, this Rich Buckler-penciled and Bob McLeod-inked cover wasn’t used (as the title— launched to accommodate a Jack Kirby Panther series after Jungle Action was ended—was cancelled with #15 [May ’79]) when the interior story wound up a few months later in Marvel Premiere #51 [Dec. ’79].

Above: Certainly, Deathlok, Marvel’s cyborg warrior of a post-apocalyptic America, is considered Rich Buckler’s greatest creation. This detail, penciled by Rich and inked by Klaus Janson, is from Astonishing Tales #34 [Mar. ’76]. 71

Above: Don shows love to buddy Rich in this 2016 pic taken at Cliff Galbraith’s great New Jersey annual gathering, East Coast ComiCon. Next page: At top is the chums at the 2015 Border City Comic Con and bottom is Rich’s variant cover for Black Panther and the Crew #1 [June 2017]. Rich died a month after its release. Below: Played by actor J. August Richards, Deathlok was introduced during the first season of the Marvel television series, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., the most prominent exposure yet for Rich’s creation.

me to put white people in ‘Black Panther,’ so when I do…! There’s just no satisfying you people!” [laughter] CBC: [Laughs] Sure, people were wearing hoods, covering up their white faces, but still…! Don: There was a TV series in the ’50s called Surfside 6. And Troy Donahue was an actor who had been in the movies, but Warner Bros. put him into this TV series. Then somebody asked the producer, “Do you think putting Troy Donahue in the Surfside 6 TV series will hurt his movie career? And George Wagner, the producer, said, “You mean outside of killing it?” Well, I think it’s probably the same with the Ku Klux Klan, as it was. But, you know, the battle lines were drawn. CBC: [To Rich] You brought it up before I could mention it, but about mentoring artists in Detroit… Rich: And not just Detroit artists. Mentoring was how it was done. That’s how I got into business. It just seemed to make sense. You would apprentice with another artist or several or they would sort of sponsor you and steer you and guide you, and open up opportunities for interviews or possible jobs. CBC: Are you proud of the work that you guys have done in the “Black Panther,” working together? Rich: I am ridiculously proud of it, yes. Don: To be working with an artist like Rich… Rich: We knew that we were being rebellious. We knew we were being outrageous. We knew we were being assertive and trying to wake people up. CBC: You’re pushing it. Don: The great thing about working with Rich is that you could ask him for anything. You could say, “Hey, can we try this? Can we turn the page on the side? And you realize it would take an extra day, two days, to draw what I wanted… so if you’re doing it just for the money, you should go somewhere else. Rich: Right, no kidding. Don: I was lucky if I wrote a single page in one night. [to Jon] And I remember you actually bringing up a scene in one of the “Panther’s Rage” books years ago, in the scene where Zatama gets killed [Jungle Action #9, May 1974]. And that almost broke me as a writer. I kept writing and rewriting that page—his death was on that page—and I was trying to get some emotional power out of it. But I felt everything I wrote just seemed hackneyed and something I’d seen before… So, finally, after about five days, I think it almost broke me, and I didn’t know what made me think I could do this. And then there was—just like I said—“I’m gonna take this, these lines; I can live with this, I can live with that.” But I realized, later on, that the problem was I had not emotionally earned what I wanted to achieve with the character. Because the character had not been around enough and I had not achieved it as a writer—creating a fully developed human being that people could really get involved. CBC: So it’s a learning process? Don: Oh, it’s always a learning process, even now. CBC: Rich— Rich: Oh, I’m a master! I’ve got it all down now. [laughter] I write books about it and I’m a millionaire and everybody loves me… [chuckles] CBC: Let me ask you point-blank and you don’t have to answer me if you don’t want to but Deathlok has appeared in the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show, correct? Rich: [Deliberately] Right. Not my Deathlok, but, yes, a Deathlok. CBC: Do you see anything for it? Rich: I see it as helping the character to gain currency and maybe one day they will develop it and bring it back at least a little closer to what I thought of. But I hope they do something worthwhile with it. CBC: Did you get any acknowledgment? Rich: Yes, they gave me credit along with like 50 other people. My name is there, at the end credits of Agents of #29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

Don: I don’t think people really understand what it was like to try to do those books. You know, having been on the front lines—because I did the first interracial kiss in Marvel Comics, in “Killraven,” and you didn’t just get to do that. I had artists threaten to quit the book, and then I had to be called into the editor’s office. And I knew I couldn’t say I was doing it, because, once you get told you can’t do it, then it’s an open act of defiance. And I knew the way I could get it to work was to go to Stan [Lee], but it was very political, and you couldn’t just go to Stan. Because, if you bypass the other people, well, then that is a declaration of war. I hoped I was getting the audience to demand, “Why won’t you just let these two kiss?” And then ask to meet with Stan. And, you know, there had to be a bunch of people in that meeting, to get it done. But I knew how to approach Stan on it. I mean, Stan did want Marvel to be first, and he would prefer they would do things before DC did. So I knew how the conversation should go: “Why I hear that DC is going to do a romance comic, and they’re going to be first to do an interracial kiss.” [laughter] CBC: Now, was that actually true, Don? [laughs] Don: The way I said it, I didn’t lie! It was possible! CBC: “Could be!” Don: And Stan said, “I don’t want that to happen! But can’t she just be green?” And I said, “Well, she’s white, Stan. What are ya gonna do?” Stan says, “I just didn’t want the PTA in the South to see it this way.” But then they decided that I could do it, but it had to be done in knockout colors, which meant both characters would have to be, say, solid purple. So that way they can’t hold the particular panel up at a PTA meeting. And then the book came out and, once again, I was called into the editor’s office and he said, “Hey, what’s going on here? I thought this panel was supposed to be a knockout colors!” And I would go, [innocently] “It isn’t?” [laughter] “Gee, how the hell did that happen?” CBC: Did you get complaints from editorial about your “Black Panther “having an all-Black cast? Don: Absolutely. That was a big source of contention. I was gonna touch on this point because, for the longest time, they wanted me to bring the Avengers in. I thought it was important that we have Black characters involved in the story and I didn’t want white people having to go in and help the Black guy resolve the situation. It was T’Challa’s situation. He was the hero of the story. And I just stood firm with it and, you know, that’s the way I had to play it from the very beginning. Was having an all-Black cast important? I think it was important when people like Dwayne McDuffie and Michael Davis still write about those books. You know, the afterword piece that Dwayne wrote before he died, in the Marvel Masterworks [Black Panther] collection there, moved me to tears. That my stories meant that much to them, I felt, like yeah, that was the way to go. CBC: When “Panther’s Rage” concluded after 13 chapters, you bought the Black Panther to the United States, and you dealt straight-on with the Ku Klux Klan. Don: Yes. [chuckles] Which, proves again, there was no plan. I told this on a Black panel with Michael Davis this year: I get called in the editor’s office and everybody was just really upset about the Klan stuff being in there. And I replied, “For two-and-a-half years, you folks been hounding

S.H.I.E.L.D. And they paid me some money, so there it is, okay? CBC: I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts, because they’re mining the Marvel archives so well, that both of you have some influence in the Black Panther major motion picture… Rich: I just wish they would hire Don for what he and they would hire me for what I created, but they don’t. They get other people to just go off and do Superman Lives with Nicolas Cage and then it just go sideways. So what are they thinking? Don: Personally what I want to see is Idris Elba as Sabre. That’s what I’m pitching for! CBC: Ya-hoo! Creator-owned! Don: Yes, exactly. CBC: The Panther movie is coming out. Are you looking forward to it? Don: Sure! I love the character. You can’t spend that many years of your life on a character and not look forward to it. Don’t forget, I came back and I did the South Africa apartheid stuff with “Panther’s Quest.” And then we did “Panther’s Prey,” with Dwayne Turner. And, once again, I just lucked out and Dwayne and I had a great working relationship. So I got really lucky. He was just starting out at the time. Like, with Rich, I would be on the phone all the time. You know, if you’re gonna be a writer doing like five six titles a month, you cannot afford to be spending time on the phone talking to the artists. A lot of times, people are getting scripts and that’s it. The artist just draws it and never talks to the writer. I think Rich will tell you that… Rich: I’m a writer, too, and I’ve often wondered what’s taking Don so damn long! [laughter] But I didn’t change anything. And I drew everything he challenged me to draw. CBC: Did you add anything in your conferences with Don? Do you remember specific instances of adding or changing elements as part of the collaborative process? Rich: Did I change elements or make differences in the stories? No, I just let this guy just run with it. I went with whatever he was doing. Yeah, I was a true believer. CBC: Is he a good writer? Rich: I was Don McGregor’s bitch, man. [laughter] For the whole deal…! [laughs] Don: I love you, Rich! Rich: [Chuckles] Yeah, he’s a pretty good writer! CBC: [To Don] Is this guy a good artist? Don: Oh, I just said if you don’t have an artist who honestly believes in what you’re doing and is able to bring those scripts to life—you could bleed on the page; you could care all you want, but if that doesn’t happen, it’s dead in the water. And I was really fortunate, and not just with Rich, but with Billy Graham and then Craig Russell… And Craig stayed the course. Everybody wanted him off that book [Amazing Adventures]. But Craig would say, “I’m perfectly content to work with Don.” Rich: I remember being conscious of this—and not everybody was guilty of this—but there were many of our peers who didn’t want Don and I doing what we were doing. [laughs] There was jealousy and it was just kind of silly… Don: They did not. We were hear [claps] and, “Hurray for what you’re doing!”? No. Just doing the back-up pages was a hassle… but people like Jim Salicrup helped. Without his help and other people who were willing to contribute, we couldn’t have done those. Jim, actually, I think COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

found the Kirby piece that I was able to put in the back. So I didn’t have to run one of the jungle goddess stories. I hated that stuff. And then I had actually had writers corner me one night and they were really pissed off. “You’re giving Marvel work for free! How can you do that? You’re stabbing us in the back!” I just wanted a book I could hold my hands and be proud of, and if it had been one with a jungle goddess story in it, it would always hurt me. So you know, like, my feeling was that this is a way for us to do the best book we could do. Rich: From the beginning, when we work together—but really, we have the same sensibility—I sum it up like this: draw and write comics like you mean it. That’s how I’ve always done it. That’s how Don’s always done it. We can’t do it any other way. CBC: Thank you very much, guys. [applause] Does anybody have any questions for these two gentlemen? Questions? No questions? [There was one question and it was directed at Don regarding Kraven the Hunter, but Don informs the audience member that he never wrote the character] Have you guys worked together again? Rich: Do you mean since those days? Unfortunately, no… CBC: Well, c’mon, guys! Let’s get something going! Rich: We are, at times, making attempts to, but it’s not a perfect world. And contrary to what most people believe, the big companies that could make really good things happen are not looking for new materials and, you know, characters and ideas and concepts. They’re not looking for it. They don’t want it. They don’t need it. CBC: You had what I would call a very amazing, young, inker working on your stuff, Klaus Janson… Rich: Why does he keep haunting me? Yeah, I got close to his first work inking my pencils. I mentored him a bit, too. And, really, Dick Giordano was his mentor, but nobody was taking Klaus seriously. Just a short anecdote: The first Jungle Action story that I did, I finished the pencils and I took them from John Verpoorten’s office to be inked before they assigned an inker. And, as I was walking away with the pages in my hand, John said, “Rich, where you going with those pages?” And I said, “Klaus is gonna ink them.” And he said, “No, he’s not.” And I kept walking and I said, “Yes, he is.” And he said, “No, he’s not.” And I just kept walking and walked to the work area that I had there across from the Marvel bullpen. And Klaus was there waiting and I handed the pages to him, and I said, “Let’s go! The job is yours.” So Marvel didn’t give him his first assignment. I did. [laughter] And sometimes that’s what it takes. And then he took it seriously and got confidence and he just ran with it, and look what happened! It’s not like I was I was teaching all these guys and training them, but sometimes you need that catalyst, whatever it is to move you forward into the professional ranks. Today, there is no mentoring, just bullsh*t new talent programs—a lot of nonsense. There’s too much bullsh*t in the world. Okay? Let me just go on the record and say that! [laughter] CBC: [To audience] But you gotta say, people, there in Detroit, there really is something in the water! Thank you, Don and Rich—and Bill Johnson!— and thank you very much, everybody. [applause] 73

It was the best of printing, it was the worst of printing…

by TOM ZIUKO CBC Colorist Supreme Back in 1983, when I was told by the folks at DC that the then-upcoming Nathaniel Dusk mini-series was going to be printed from Gene Colan’s pencils, and that I was being asked to color it, I was ecstatic. When I learned that it was going to be printed with traditional flat color separations, and that I was not going to be allowed to color it by hand, I was devastated. In that pre-digital era, coloring for comics was primarily done by two methods: traditional flat separations of the four color plates (red, yellow, blue, and black) based on color guides; and fullprocess hand-colored artwork. Don McGregor, who wrote the series, and I lobbied hard to have me hand-color the assignment, but we were told it would just be too expensive. So I did the best job I could with the flat coloring—and, of course, the final product looks atrocious. Horrendous flat slabs and blocks of color obscure Gene’s incredible art. Coloring his artwork when inked requires delicate subtlety—and that requirement increases a thousandfold if you’re working on his moody and masterfully toned pencil art. Since the entire world agreed that the first series printing had been a travesty, with the second series, Nathaniel Dusk II, DC allowed me to hand color the artwork. So we photostated Gene’s pencils and printed the screened pages on matte paper—and I was able to give the art the proper coloring it deserved. I’m proud of my work on Nathaniel Dusk; I was honored to collaborate with one of my lifelong artistic idols and I feel that the full-process hand-coloring on the second series is a highlight in my career. At right are a few examples of that work. If DC ever wants to put out a compilation volume reprinting both series together, I would happily recolor the first miniseries to match the second one. Is anybody listening…? COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

TwoMorrows 2023 www.twomorrows.com • store@twomorrows.com

THE BEST OF SIMON & KIRBY’S

MAINLINE COMICS

by JOE SIMON & JACK KIRBY Introduction by JOHN MORROW

In 1954, industry legends JOE SIMON and JACK KIRBY founded MAINLINE PUBLICATIONS to publish their own comics during that turbulent era in comics history. The four titles—BULLSEYE, FOXHOLE, POLICE TRAP, and IN LOVE—looked to build off their reputation as hit makers in the Western, War, Crime, and Romance genres, but the 1950s backlash against comics killed any chance at success, and Mainline closed its doors just two years later. For the first time, TwoMorrows Publishing is compiling the best of Simon & Kirby’s Mainline comics work, including all of the stories with S&K art, as well as key tales with contributions by MORT MESKIN and others. After the company’s dissolution, their partnership ended with Simon leaving comics for advertising, and Kirby taking unused Mainline concepts to both DC and Marvel. This collection bridges the gap between Simon & Kirby’s peak with their 1950s romance comics, and the lows that led to Kirby’s resurgence with CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN and the early MARVEL UNIVERSE. With loving art restoration by CHRIS FAMA, and an historical overview by JOHN MORROW to put it all into perspective, the BEST OF SIMON & KIRBY’S MAINLINE COMICS presents some of the final, and finest, work Joe and Jack ever produced. SHIPS SUMMER 2023! (256-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $49.95 • (Digital Edition) $15.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-118-9

DESTROYER DUCK GRAPHITE EDITION

by JACK KIRBY & STEVE GERBER Introduction by MARK EVANIER

In the 1980s, writer STEVE GERBER was embroiled in a lawsuit against MARVEL COMICS over ownership of his creation HOWARD THE DUCK. To raise funds for legal fees, Gerber asked JACK KIRBY to contribute to a benefit comic titled DESTROYER DUCK. Without hesitation, Kirby (who was in his own dispute with Marvel at the time) donated his services for the first issue, and the duo took aim at their former employer in an outrageous five-issue run. With biting satire and guns blazing, Duke “Destroyer” Duck battled the thinly veiled Godcorp (whose infamous credo was “Grab it all! Own it all! Drain it all!”), its evil leader Ned Packer and the (literally) spineless Booster Cogburn, Medea (a parody of Daredevil’s Elektra), and more! Now, all five Gerber/Kirby issues are collected—but relettered and reproduced from JACK’S UNBRIDLED, UNINKED PENCIL ART! Also included are select examples of ALFREDO ALCALA’s unique inking style over Kirby on the original issues, Gerber’s script pages, an historical Introduction by MARK EVANIER (co-editor of the original 1980s issues), and an Afterword by BUZZ DIXON (who continued the series after Gerber)! Discover all the hidden jabs you missed when DESTROYER DUCK was first published, and experience page after page of Kirby’s raw pencil art! SHIPS SPRING 2023! (128-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $31.95 • (Digital Edition) $13.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-117-2

ALTER EGO COLLECTORS’ ITEM CLASSICS

By overwhelming demand, editor ROY THOMAS has compiled all the material on the founders of the Marvel Bullpen from three SOLD-OUT ALTER EGO ISSUES—plus OVER 30 NEW PAGES OF CONTENT! There’s the STEVE DITKO ISSUE (#160 with a rare ’60s Ditko interview by RICHARD HOWELL, biographical notes by NICK CAPUTO, and Ditko tributes)! The STAN LEE ISSUE (#161 with ROY THOMAS on his 50+ year relationship with Stan, art by KIRBY, DITKO, MANEELY, EVERETT, SEVERIN, ROMITA, plus tributes from pros and fans)! And the JACK KIRBY ISSUE (#170 with WILL MURRAY on Kirby’s contributions to Iron Man’s creation, Jack’s Captain Marvel/Mr. Scarlet Fawcett work, Kirby in 1960s fanzines, plus STAN LEE and ROY THOMAS on Jack)! Whether you missed these issues, or can’t live without the extensive NEW MATERIAL on DITKO, LEE, and KIRBY, it’s sure to be an AMAZING, ASTONISHING, FANTASTIC tribute to the main men who made Marvel! SHIPS SPRING 2023! (256-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $35.95 • (Digital Edition) $15.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-116-5

CLIFFHANGER!

CINEMATIC SUPERHEROES OF THE SERIALS: 1941–1952 by CHRISTOPHER IRVING

Hold on tight as historian CHRISTOPHER IRVING explores the origins of the first on-screen superheroes and the comic creators and film-makers who brought them to life. CLIFFHANGER! touches on the early days of the film serial, to its explosion as a juvenile medium of the 1930s and ‘40s. See how the creation of characters like SUPERMAN, CAPTAIN AMERICA, SPY SMASHER, and CAPTAIN MARVEL dovetailed with the early film adaptations. Along the way, you’ll meet the stuntmen, directors (SPENCER BENNETT, WILLIAM WITNEY, producer SAM KATZMAN), comic book creators (SIEGEL & SHUSTER, SIMON & KIRBY, BOB KANE, C.C. BECK, FRANK FRAZETTA, WILL EISNER), and actors (BUSTER CRABBE, GEORGE REEVES, LORNA GRAY, KANE RICHMOND, KIRK ALYN, DAVE O’BRIEN) who brought them to the silver screen—and how that resonates with today’s cinematic superhero universe. SHIPS SUMMER 2023! (160-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 • (Digital Edition) $15.99 • ISBN: 978-1-60549-119-6

THE

CHARLTON COMPANION by JON B. COOKE

An ALL-NEW definitive history of Connecticut’s notorious all-in-one comic book company! Often disparaged as a second-rate funny-book outfit, Charlton produced a vast array of titles that span from the 1940s Golden Age to the Bronze Age of the ’70s in many genres, from Hot Rods to Haunted Love. The imprint experienced explosive bursts of creativity, most memorably the “Action Hero Line” edited by DICK GIORDANO in the 1960s, which featured the renowned talents of STEVE DITKO and a stellar team of creators, as well as the unforgettable ’70s “Bullseye” era that spawned E-Man and Doomsday +1, all helmed by veteran masters and talented newcomers—and serving as a training ground for an entire generation of comics creators thriving in an environment of complete creative freedom. From its beginnings with a handshake deal consummated in county jail, to the company’s accomplishments beyond comics, woven into this prose narrative are interviews with dozens of talented participants, including GIORDANO, DENNIS O’NEIL, ALEX TOTH, SANHO KIM, TOM SUTTON, PAT BOYETTE, NICK CUTI, JOHN BYRNE, MIKE ZECK, JOE STATON, SAM GLANZMAN, NEAL ADAMS, JOE GILL, and even some Derby residents who recall working in the sprawling company plant. Though it gave up the ghost over three decades ago, Charlton’s influence continues today with its Action Heroes serving as inspiration for ALAN MOORE’s cross-media graphic novel hit, WATCHMEN. By JON B. COOKE with MICHAEL AMBROSE & FRANK MOTLER. NOW SHIPPING! (272-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $43.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-111-0

BRITMANIA

History of over 300 TV shows and 2000+ comic book adaptations, from well-known series (STAR TREK, PARTRIDGE FAMILY, THE MUNSTERS) to lesser-known shows.

DAVE COCKRUM

GLEN CADIGAN’s bio of the artist who redesigned the Legion of Super-Heroes and introduced X-Men characters Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, and Logan!

Explores when America went wild in the ’60s for All Things British! MOVIES (A Hard Day’s Night), TV (The Ed Sullivan Show), COLLECTIBLES (toys, games, trading cards, lunch boxes), COMICS (real-life Brits in DC and Marvel Universes) MUSIC (features interviews with the BEATLES, the ROLLING STONES, THE WHO, HERMAN’S HERMITS, the YARDBIRDS, the ANIMALS, the HOLLIES, & more! By MARK VOGER.

(192-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $29.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-107-3

(160-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $27.95 HC: $36.95 • (Digital Edition) $14.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-113-4

(192-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $43.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN 978-1-60549-115-8 • Now shipping!

TEAM-UP COMPANION OUR ARTISTS AT WAR AMERICAN TV COMICS MICHAEL EURY examines team-up comic books of the Silver and Bronze Ages of Comics in a lushly illustrated selection of informative essays, special features, and trivia-loaded issue-by-issue indexes!

Examines US War comics from EC, DC COMICS, WARREN PUBLISHING, CHARLTON, and more! Featuring KURTZMAN, SEVERIN, DAVIS, WOOD, KUBERT, GLANZMAN, KIRBY, and others!

(256-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $15.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-112-7

(160-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $27.95 (Digital Edition) $14.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-108-0

REED CRANDALL

Illustrator of the Comics

MIKE GRELL

LIFE IS DRAWING WITHOUT AN ERASER

(1940s-1980s)

JOHN SEVERIN

THE LIFE & ART OF

HERO-A-GO-GO!

Documents the life and career of the master Golden Age artist of Captain Marvel Jr. and other classic characters! (160-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $14.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-090-8

History of Crandall’s life and career, from Golden Age Quality Comics, to Warren war and horror, Flash Gordon, and beyond!

Career-spanning tribute to the Legion of Super-Heroes & Warlord comics art legend!

Biography of the EC, MARVEL and MAD mainstay, co-creator of American Eagle, and 40+ year CRACKED magazine contributor.

Looks at comics' 1960s CAMP AGE, when spies liked their wars cold and their women warm, and TV's Batman shook a mean cape!

(256-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $13.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-102-8

(160-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $27.95 (Digital Edition) $12.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-088-5

(160-page COLOR HARDCOVER) $39.95 (Digital Edition) $14.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-106-6

(272-page COLOR SOFTCOVER) $36.95 (Digital Edition) $13.99 ISBN: 978-1-60549-073-1

AMERICAN COMIC BOOK CHRONICLES

FULL-COLOR HARDCOVER SERIES

documents each decade of comics history!

8 Volumes covering the 1940s-1990s

MAC RABOY

Master of the Comics

TWO-FISTED COMIC ARTIST

TwoMorrows. The Future of Comics History. Phone: 919-449-0344 E-mail: store@twomorrows.com Web: www.twomorrows.com

TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 USA

creators at the con Return of the Con: Fan Expo Philadelphia After nearly two years of comic cons that went virtual or were cancelled entirely, in-person pop culture events began to return in late 2021. In early 2022, the former Wizard World Comic Con returned to the Philadelphia Convention Center, now rebranded as Fan Expo Philadelphia by its new owners, Fan Expo HQ. Here are highlights of some of the comics creators at the event.

Above: Representing the clothing accessories of the era, Nik Virella (left) coordinates her mask with her outfit. And it’s a matching denim vest and mask for Brian Azzarello (right). In the background, crowds were back for an in-person comic con, masked and otherwise.

Signing in Artist Alley: the “Venomous” team of Ryan Stegman (left) and Donny Cates.

Photography by Kendall Whitehouse

Dan DiDio (left) is engaged in an energetic conversation with Frank Tieri.

As he sketches a commission, Kevin Maguire is pleased to pose for a quick photo. 78

Who takes all those photos for Comic Book Creator? Greg Capullo knows: It’s this guy!

Marc Silvestri pulls down his mask so our photographer can grab a shot of his full visage.

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

$1,000,000 PAID FOR ORIGINAL COMIC ART! COLLECTOR PAYING TOP DOLLAR FOR “ANY AND ALL” ORIGINAL COMIC BOOK AND COMIC STRIP ARTWORK FROM THE 1930S TO PRESENT! COVERS, PINUPS, PAGES, IT DOESN’T MATTER! 1 PAGE OR ENTIRE COLLECTIONS SOUGHT! CALL OR EMAIL ME ANYTIME!

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CBC for me, see? coming attractions: cbc #30 in the year 2023

Mister Michael Cho is in the Know!

Our next issue features the life and brilliant work of MICHAEL CHO, Canadian comic book artist, illustrator, and graphic novelist, in a career-spanning interview and accompanying art gallery that explores and showcases his extraordinary—and eclectic—talent. His art has graced Marvel and DC reprint collection covers of late, the cover of Don DelIllo’s novel, White Noise, and even campaign material for the current U.S. President! His story “Trinity” was selected by editor Neil Gaiman for The Best American Comics anthology and Cho’s poignant and beautifully rendered graphic novel, Shoplifter, received rave reviews. Also we a chat with the publisher of one of the earliest graphic novels, Will Eisner’s A Contract with God, Baronet Books’ NORMAN GOLDFIND. Plus, this issue showcases a reprinting of a rarely-seen 1974 trade magazine look at JACK ADLER and the DC Comics production department’s process of reprinting Golden Age material. And there’s also comix oddity The Funny Pages, a rarely-seen color newspaper tabloid that highlighted the work of Robert Crumb and many other underground and mainstream cartoonists is examined in depth by its editor RON BARRETT. In addition to CBC’s usual columns and features, FRED HEMBECK Full-color, 84 pages, $10.95 shares his latest Dateline installment.

COMIC BOOK CREATOR • Winter 2023 • #29

from the archives of Tom Ziuko

a picture is worth a thousand words

ZOT!—by Scott McCloud! I started my professional career in the DC production department in the early 1980s, and Scott joined the staff shortly thereafter. I was then privileged to color Scott’s b-&-w art portfolio for his ZOT! comic book presentation; as well as the first few issues of the series itself when it was published by Eclipse. Here’s the original art for a house ad, sans all the advertising text. I’d say that Scott understands comics, wouldn’t you…? —TZ

#29 • Winter 2023 • COMIC BOOK CREATOR

In RetroFan #25

(should you decide to accept it...) NEXT ISSUE! In #25, meet Mission: Impossible’s LYNDA DAY GEORGE in an exclusive interview! And celebrate RAMBO’s 50th birthday with his creator, novelist DAVID MORRELL! Plus: TV faves WKRP IN CINCINNATI and SPACE: 1999, Fleisher’s and Filmation’s SUPERMAN CARTOONS, commercial jingles, JERRY LEWIS and BOB HOPE comic books, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY. NOW SHIPPING!

RETROFAN #26

The saga of Saturday morning’s Super Friends, Part One! Plus: A history of MR. T, TV’s AVENGERS (Steed and Mrs. Peel), Daktari’s CHERYL MILLER, Mexican movie monsters, John and Yoko’s nation of Nutopia, ELIZABETH SHEPHERD (the actress who almost played Emma Peel), and more! With ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, MARK VOGER, & MICHAEL EURY. SHIPS APRIL 2023! (84-page magazines) $10.95 • (Digital Editions) $4.99

RETROFAN #20

RETROFAN #21

RETROFAN #22

RETROFAN #23

RETROFAN #24

MAD’s maddest artist, SERGIO ARAGONÉS, is profiled! Plus: TV’s Route 66 and an interview with star GEORGE MAHARIS, MOE HOWARD’s final years, singer B. J. THOMAS in one of his final interviews, LONE RANGER cartoons, G.I. JOE, and more! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

Meet JULIE NEWMAR, the purr-fect Surf’s up as SIXTIES BEACH MOVIES make Catwoman! Plus: ASTRO BOY, TARZAN a RetroFan splash! Plus: He-Man and the Saturday morning cartoons, the true Masters of the Universe, ZORRO’s Saturday history of PEBBLES CEREAL, TV’s THE morning cartoon, TV’s THE WILD, WILD UNTOUCHABLES and SEARCH, the WEST, CARtoons and other drag-mags, MONKEEMOBILE, SOVIET EXPO ’77, and VALSPEAK, and more fun, fab features! more fun, fab features! Featuring columns Like, totally! Featuring columns by ANDY by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY. VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

Meet the stars behind the Black Lagoon: RICOU BROWNING, BEN CHAPMAN, JULIE ADAMS, and LORI NELSON! Plus SHADOW CHASERS, featuring show creator KENNETH JOHNSON. Also: THE BEATLES’ YELLOW SUBMARINE, FLASH GORDON cartoons, TV’s cult classic THE PRISONER and kid’s show ZOOM, COLORFORMS, M&Ms, and more fun, fab features! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

Interviews with Lost in Space’s ANGELA CARTWRIGHT and BILL MUMY, and Land of the Lost’s WESLEY EURE! Revisit Leave It to Beaver with JERRY MATHERS, TONY DOW, and KEN OSMOND! Plus: UNDERDOG, Rankin-Bass’ stop-motion classic THE LITTLE DRUMMER BOY, Christmas gifts you didn’t want, the CABBAGE PATCH KIDS fad, and more! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99

(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99 (Digital Edition) $4.99

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TwoMorrows. The Future of Pop History.

RETROFAN #16

RETROFAN #17

RETROFAN #18

RETROFAN #19

An exclusive interview with Logan’s Run star MICHAEL YORK, plus Logan’s Run novelist WILLIAM F. NOLAN and vehicle customizer DEAN JEFFRIES. Plus: the Marvel Super Heroes cartoons of 1966, H. R. Pufnstuf, Leave It to Beaver’s SUE “Miss Landers” RANDALL, WOLFMAN JACK, drive-in theaters, My Weekly Reader, DAVID MANDEL’s super collection of comic book art, and more!

Dark Shadows’ Angelique, LARA PARKER, Our BARBARA EDEN interview will keep sinks her fangs into an exclusive interview. you forever dreaming of Jeannie! Plus: The Invaders, the BILLIE JEAN KING/BOBBY Plus: Rankin-Bass’ Mad Monster Party, RIGGS tennis battle of the sexes, HANNAAurora Monster model kits, a chat with Aurora painter JAMES BAMA, George of BARBERA’s Saturday morning super-heroes the Jungle, The Haunting, Jawsmania, Drak of the Sixties, THE MONSTER TIMES fanzine, and more fun, fab features! Featuring Pack, TV dads’ jobs, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by FARINO, ERNEST FARINO, ANDY MANGELS, WILL MANGELS, MURRAY, SAAVEDRA, SHAW, MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW!, and MICHAEL EURY. and MICHAEL EURY.

Interview with Bond Girl and Hammer Films actress CAROLINE MUNRO! Plus: WACKY PACKAGES, COURAGEOUS CAT AND MINUTE MOUSE, FILMATION’S GHOSTBUSTERS vs. the REAL GHOSTBUSTERS, Bandai’s rare PRO WRESTLER ERASERS, behind the scenes of Sixties movies, WATERGATE at Fifty, Go-Go Dancing, a visit to the Red Skelton Museum, and more fun, fab features!

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(84-page FULL-COLOR magazine) $10.95 (Digital Edition) $4.99

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BACK ISSUE #142

BACK ISSUE #143

BACK ISSUE #144

SUPER ISSUE! Superboy’s Bronze Age adventures, and interviews with GERARD CHRISTOPHER and STACY HAIDUK of the Superboy live-action TV series. Plus: Super Goof, Super Richie (Rich), Super-Dagwood, Super Mario Bros., Frank Thorne’s Far Out Green Super Cool, NICK MEGLIN and JACK DAVIS’ Superfan, and more! Featuring a Superboy and Krypto cover by DAVE COCKRUM! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

A special tribute issue to NEAL ADAMS (1941–2022), celebrating his Bronze Age DC Comics contributions! In-depth Batman and Superman interviews, ‘Green Lantern/Green Arrow’—Fifty Years Later, Neal Adams—Under the Radar, Continuity Associates, a ‘Rough Stuff’ pencil art gallery, Power Records, and more! Re-presenting Adams’ iconic cover art to BATMAN #227. (Plus: See ALTER EGO #181!)

BRONZE AGE SAVAGE LANDS, starring Ka-Zar in the 1970s! Plus: Turok—Dinosaur Hunter, DON GLUT’s Dagar and Tragg, Annihilus and the Negative Zone, Planet of Vampires, Pat Mills’s Flesh (from 2000AD), and WALTER SIMONSON and MIKE MIGNOLA’s Wolverine: The Jungle Adventure. With CONWAY, GULACY, HAMA, NICIEZA, SEARS, THOMAS, and more! JOHN BUSCEMA cover!

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COMIC BOOK CREATOR #30

KIRBY COLLECTOR #86

KIRBY COLLECTOR #87

RETROFAN #27

BRICKJOURNAL #79

Canadian comic book artist, illustrator, and graphic novelist MICHAEL CHO in a career-spanning interview and art gallery, a 1974 look at JACK ADLER and the DC Comics production department’s process of reprinting Golden Age material, color newspaper tabloid THE FUNNY PAGES examined in depth by its editor RON BARRETT, plus CBC’s usual columns and features, including HEMBECK! Edited by JON B. COOKE.

VISUAL COMPARISONS! Analysis of unused vs. known Kirby covers and art, BARRY WINDSOR-SMITH on his stylizations in Captain America’s Bicentennial Battles, Kirby’s incorporation of real-life images in his work, WILL MURRAY’s conversations with top pros just after Jack’s passing, unused Mister Miracle cover inked by WALTER SIMONSON, and more! Edited by JOHN MORROW.

LAW & ORDER! Kirby’s lawmen from the Newsboy Legion’s Jim Harper and “Terrible” Turpin, to Western gunfighters, and even future policemen like OMAC and Captain Victory! Also: how a Marvel cop led to the creation of Funky Flashman! Justice Traps The Guilty and Headline Comics! Plus MARK EVANIER moderating 2022’s Kirby Tribute Panel (with Sin City’s FRANK MILLER). MACHLAN cover inks.

Interview with Captain Kangaroo BOB KEESHAN, The ROCKFORD FILES, teen monster movies, the Kung Fu and BRUCE LEE crazes, JACK KIRBY’s comedy comics, DON DRYSDALE’s TV drop-ins, outrageous toys, Challenge of the Super Friends, and more fun, fab features! Featuring columns by ANDY MANGELS, WILL MURRAY, SCOTT SAAVEDRA, SCOTT SHAW, and MARK VOGER! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

Create Brick Art with builders ANDREAS LELANDER and JACK ENGLAND! Learn how to build mosaics and sculptures with DEEP SHEN and some of the best Lego builders around the world! Plus: AFOLs by cartoonist GREG HYLAND, step-by step “You Can Build It” instructions by CHRISTOPHER DECK, BrickNerd’s DIY Fan Art, Minifigure Customization with JARED K. BURKS, and more!

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ALTER EGO #182

An FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America) special, behind a breathtaking JERRY ORDWAY cover! Features on Uncle Marvel and the Fawcett Family by P.C. HAMERLINCK, ACG artist KENNETH LANDAU (Commander Battle and The Atomic Sub), and writer LEE GOLDSMITH (Golden Age Green Lantern, Flash, and others). Plus Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt by MICHAEL T. GILBERT, and more!

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ALTER EGO #181

Special NEAL ADAMS ISSUE, featuring in-depth interviews with Neal by HOWARD CHAYKIN, BRYAN STROUD, and RICHARD ARNDT. Also: a “lost” ADAMS BRAVE & THE BOLD COVER with Batman and Green Arrow, and unseen Adams art and artifacts. Plus FCA (Fawcett Collectors of America), MICHAEL T. GILBERT in Mr. Monster’s Comic Crypt, and more! Edited by ROY THOMAS. (Plus: See BACK ISSUE #143!)