Jack Kirby Collector #43 by TwoMorrows Publishing

JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR FORTY-THREE

IN THE US

$995

COMING SOON FROM TWOMORROWS!

Number 14, Summer 2005 • Hype and hullabaloo from the publisher determined to bring new life to comics fandom • Edited by John Morrow

A Good Cause, Is It In The Water? Pros@Cons! A Great Guy! Award-winning artist/writer WM. MESSNER-LOEBS (JOURNEY, THE FLASH, WONDER WOMAN) has fallen into financial ruin, landing the beloved comics creator in a Salvation Army shelter. To make matters worse, his wife is chronically ill and there’s no medical insurance and no work or funds coming in. In response, TwoMorrows has joined forces with leading comics creators to produce HEROES AND VILLAINS (96 pages, $29 US), a gorgeous sketchbook and tribute shipping in July, the proceeds of which will directly benefit Messner-Loebs. Edited by CLIFFORD METH, the book will include art from MIKE ALLRED, BRENT ANDERSON, CHRIS BACHALO, MARK BAGLEY, JOHN CASSADAY, TRAVIS CHAREST, DAVE & PATY COCKRUM, GENE COLAN, ALAN DAVIS, MIKE DEODATO, CULLY HAMNER, DEAN HASPIEL, GREG HORN, RAFAEL KAYANAN, ANDY KUBERT, STEVE LIEBER, STEVE MCNIVEN, TOM PALMER, JOE QUESADA, DARICK ROBERTSON, WALT SIMONSON, HERB TRIMPE, BILLY TUCCI, SAL VELLUTO and a host of other top pros! PLUS: Written contributions from NEIL GAIMAN, PETER DAVID, and BEAU SMITH, and a new cover by NEAL ADAMS! Don’t miss your chance to help a worthy comics veteran; with more names being added daily, this powerhouse collection of talent will be unparalleled!

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE MOLD Don’t be caught seeping when SWAMPMEN: MUCK MONSTERS OF THE COMICS finally oozes your way in August! Behind an allnew FRANK CHO cover, editors JON B. COOKE and GEORGE KHOURY have assembled the ultimate look at SWAMP THING, MAN-THING, IT, THE BOG BEAST, MARVIN THE DEAD THING, THE SWAMP LURKER, and THE HEAP, through interviews with and rare and unseen art by BERNIE WRIGHTSON, LEN WEIN, ALAN MOORE, STEVE BISSETTE, STEVE GERBER, MIKE PLOOG, RICK VEITCH, JOHN TOTLEBEN, VAL MAYERIK, and a host of others! (200 pages, $29 US)

Good Things In Store! The new, improved www.twomorrows.com is now up and running, with easier navigation and simpler ordering, plus occasional specials and items not available to the general public. Check us out!

First HANNAH-ROSE MORROW debuted in Jan. to TwoMorrows honchos JOHN & PAM MORROW. Now we find out that our trusty assistant ERIC NOLEN-WEATHINGTON’s wife DONNA is expecting their second child in October! Who’s next? Roy? Mike?

PÉREZ CAUGHT IN THE ACT! For our second DVD release (following our über-successful HOW TO DRAW COMICS FROM SCRIPT TO PRINT, still available), ERIC NOLEN-WEATHINGTON invaded the Florida studio of fan-favorite GEORGE PÉREZ for an unprecedented look at how he works his artistic magic! The perfect companion to our MODERN MASTERS book series, MODERN MASTERS: IN THE STUDIO WITH GEORGE PÉREZ gives you a personal tour of George’s studio, and lets you watch stepby-step as he illustrates a special issue of Top Cow’s WITCHBLADE! Also,you’ll see George as he sketches for fans at conventions, and hear his peers and colleagues—including MARV WOLFMAN and RON MARZ—share their anecdotes and personal insights along the way! This 120minute Standard Format DVD is only $34 US, and ships in limited release in July, so order now!

AE Hits 50! Rascally ROY THOMAS celebrates his 50th issue of ALTER EGO ($8 US) in July with a retrospective covering his 40-year career from MODELING WITH MILLIE #44 (1965) to STOKER’S DRACULA (2005)—with AVENGERS, X-MEN, ALL-STAR SQUADRON, CONAN, INFINITY INC., et. al., in between! He talks & writes about working with NEAL ADAMS, DICK AYERS, RICH BUCKLER, THE BROTHERS BUSCEMA, ERNIE CHAN, GENE COLAN, ERNIE COLÓN, STEVE DITKO, BILL EVERETT, DICK GIORDANO, STAN GOLDBERG, DON HECK, GIL KANE, JACK KIRBY, STAN LEE, MIKE MACHLAN, TODD McFARLANE, JERRY ORDWAY, GEORGE PÉREZ, STEVEN PUGH, FRANK ROBBINS, JOHN ROMITA, WERNER ROTH, JULIE SCHWARTZ, THE SEVERIN SIBLINGS, SCOTT SHAW!, BARRY SMITH, HERB TRIMPE, GEORGE TUSKA, MORT WEISINGER, and many others! Let us also mention that, in 50 issues, ROY (and designer CHRIS DAY, plus associate editors JIM AMASH, BILL SCHELLY, MICHAEL T. GILBERT, MARC SWAYZE, and P.C. HAMERLINCK) NEVER missed a deadline, and the mag has never shipped late! When you consider AE’S amazing level of quality and the vast amounts of comics history the mag has documented, that’s a remarkable achievement for anyone. Congrats, guys!

Be sure to track down the TwoMorrows gang at one of these summer conventions! HEROES CON (Charlotte, NC, June 24-26) COMICON: INTERNATIONAL (San Diego, CA, July 13-17) WIZARD WORLD (Chicago, IL, August 4-7) BALTIMORE COMICON (Baltimore, MD, September 17-18)

DIAMOND’S “2004 BEST PUBLICATION ital version ig d a g ABOUT COMICS!” in w E read S If you’re vie ation, ALTER A E L P DRAW! #11 (JULY) EGO #51 (AUG.) BACK ISSUE #11 (JULY) WRITE NOW! #10 (JULY) c her!Kane ghost THOMAS, BUSIEK, and JUSKO on CONAN STEVE RUDE demonstrates his approach to “HOW-TO” TIPS and interviews on lisartist/Bob of this publi m the b u Golden Age Batman p LEW SAYRE SCHWARTZ interviewed, the (with art by BUSCEMA, WINDSOR-SMITH, comics & drawing! ROQUE BALLESTEROS writing for comics, animation, and sci-fi, this plea fro Golden & Silver Ages of AUSTRALIAN FREE ADAMS, JUSKO, & others), ARAGONÉS & on Flash animation! Political cartoonist JIM with Justice League Unlimited’s DWAYNE COPYRIGHTS: Justice League, Swamp Thing TM & ©2005 DC Comics. Heroes & Villains cover art ED FOR ©2005 Neal Adams. Conan, Red Sonja TM & ©2005 is NOT INTEND Madr,artist DAVE id u paBERG L, whichSUPER-HEROES, or yo IA TM & REH Estate. Vision, Thor, Sub-Mariner, Thing ER be cri AT bs M su D a print FCA, MICHAEL interviewed, ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.TE Pérez DVD charac-RE. If you’re cere PYRIGH r T.sinGILBERT is CO ou his ve HE ha W u yo NY , ters TM & ©2005 CrossGen. bsite on WILL EISNER, ALEX TOTH and more! DING A r we

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EVANIER on GROO, DC’s never-published KING ARTHUR, art gallery by KIRBY, PÉREZ, MOEBIUS, GARCIA-LOPEZ, BOLLAND, and others! Edited by MICHAEL EURY.

Edited by ROY THOMAS. s me other magazine)CO support allow (100-page magazine) $8 US US ENT, r free from so (100-page R $8 NS fo it thanks—your d de loa ITHOUT OU down 0% DONE W GHTED MATERIAL. If If instead you 10 ely lut so s ab RI wa PY it CO at R th OU ow please kn STING OF ILLEGAL PO ld do: and it was an what you shou ’s re he u think. , se ca d see what yo that’s the ea Get a little JLC (that’s JUSTICE LEAGUEIS DIGITAL ISSUE, an G and purchas IN TH TH D T A GH RE d r d anTwoMorrows COMPANION) in July,ep it, DO THE RI 1) Go aheafrom int edition at ou ke pr e to th gh e ou as en rch it presents an pu as author MICHAEL EURY al 2) If you enjoy our website, or ition for free) or at your loc m fro it of d exhaustive the loaSilver Age JLA, with the Digital Ed wn doat legallook u to id reader. yoUS) titles$29 a BRUCE TIMM cover! (224 h enpgs, as a regular pa DO NOT SHARE website (whic e to have you d lov an R e’d TE W . And look forictheboTITANS COMPANION this PU op M CO ok sh m FROM YOUR Fall (by co the LEGION COMPANION’s DELETE IT GLEN LLY, WHERE. , NY ise A erw IT th O ST IAL ILLEGA 3) OR PO CADIGAN) OUR MATER r free downloadNG H FRIENDS DI IT W OA IT NL fo W s spotlighting N’T KEEP DO te issue of all our magazine cide if you want to 4) Finally, DO de the history mple e offer one co ould be sufficient for you to W loading e. fre r fo of the TEEN to keep down bsite, which sh tions enough ca bli e. pu uc r od ou TITANS! ing at our we pr rs. If you enjoy paying for the material we Who sayspurchase othe by e our company n absorb thes this isn’t the them, support pockets, and ca with dozens ion with deep — at or op TwoMorrows rp sh co p” nt po and me gia and on weekAge of cool We’re not so literally a “mom all company— slaving away day and night . We love historylosses. We’re a sm rk s, or wo at is cre th e all nc r ome foJACK KIRBY g freela ly on JUSTICE LEAGUE books about ount of incTHE of hard-workin shop owner, re ty minimal am anCOLLECTOR al comic #43 et loc pr a ur e yo ak (JULY) d DC Comics’ m of the smallCOMPANION (JULY) s, us or b th ro ends, to t au n’ rs, do ito e as t our ed superteams? siness. Ple n’t be anyTraces the JLA’s history, imitators, and early what we do, bu publication to stay in bu ere wowinners, Spotlights 2004 sure thAWARD ll enKIRBY is ing so wi assistant STEVE SHERMAN and fandom through interviews and never-seen income from th nsation we receive. Doincluding mpe ONTACTS d. others sharing memories and never-seen artwork by DENNY O’NEIL, JOE GIELLA, amount of co is to downloa like th John Morrow, KIRBY productsJACK ded at MURPHY ANDERSON, MIKE FRIEDRICH, art from JACK and ROZ, a never-published future publisher, be downloa ly on COLLECTOR editor, & for subscriptions: ld ou NEAL ADAMS, ALEX ROSS, CARMINE ns sh 1966 interview with KIRBY, MARK s publicatio EVANIER’S regular column, a Kirby pencils- INFANTINO, NICK CARDY, and others, twomorrow@aol.com TwoMorrow to-Sinnott inks comparison of TALES OF plus STAN LEE on the JLA’s inspiration of Roy Thomas, ALTER EGO editor: SUSPENSE #93, new covers featuring the Fantastic Four, index of the 1960–72 roydann@ntinet.com unseen Kirby art (SILVER SURFER inked by adventures, new cover by BRUCE TIMM, Michael Eury, BACK ISSUE editor: JOE SINNOTT, & Jack’s original ’70s & more! Written by MICHAEL EURY. euryman@msn.com SILVER STAR concept art), & more! Edited (224-page trade paperback) $29 US Mike Manley, DRAW! editor: by JOHN MORROW.

You Need A Companion!

orrows.com www.twom

mike@actionplanet.com Danny Fingeroth, WRITE NOW! editor: WriteNowDF@aol.com

(84-page Tabloid) $13 US

BORGMAN on his daily comic strip Zits! Plus DRAW!’S regular instructors BRET BLEVINS, ALEBERTO RUIZ and more! Edited by MIKE MANLEY.

McDUFFIE, ”Hate’s” PETER BAGGE, legendary comics writer GERRY CONWAY, writer/editor PAUL BENJAMIN, and more! Edited by DANNY FINGEROTH.

(96-page magazine with color) $8 US

(80-page magazine) $8 US

MODERN MASTERS VOLUME FIVE: GARCIA-LOPEZ (NOW!)

SECRETS IN THE SHADOWS:

The latest volume in our series devoted to the best artists working in comics today spotlights José Luis García-López, arguably the best draftsman in the business, and a favorite of fans and fellow pros alike. Features an extensive, career-spanning interview lavishly illustrated with rare and unpublished art, as well as a large sketchbook section! (128-page trade paperback) $19 US

GENE COLAN (JULY)

The ultimate look at COLAN’S life & art! WOLFMAN, MCGREGOR & other writers share scripts from their Colan collaborations, while TOM PALMER & other artists show how they inked Colan’s pencils! Plus never-seen collaborations between Gene and BYRNE, KALUTA and PÉREZ, and allnew Colan art created specifically for this book! DELUXE HARDCOVER is limited to 1000 copies, with 16 extra black-andwhite pages and 8 extra color pages.

SUBSCRIPTIONS:

(168-page softcover) $26 US (192-page hardcover) $49 US

THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: Four tabloid issues in the US: $36 Standard, $52 First Class (Canada: $60, Elsewhere: $64 Surface, $80 Airmail).

Read excerpts from back issues and order from our secure online store at:

BACK ISSUE!: Six issues in the US: $30 Standard, $48 First Class (Canada: $60, Elsewhere: $66 Surface, $90 Airmail).

www.twomorrows.com

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ALTER EGO: Twelve issues in the US: $60 Standard, $96 First Class (Canada: $120, Elsewhere: $132 Surface, $180 Airmail). NOTE: IF YOU PREFER A SIX-ISSUE ALTER EGO SUBSCRIPTION, JUST CUT THE PRICE IN HALF!

Outside the US, Add $2 Per Item Canada, $3 Per Item Surface, $7 Per Item Airmail.

TwoMorrows. Bringing New Life To Comics Fandom. TwoMorrows Publishing • 10407 Bedfordtown Dr. • Raleigh, NC 27614 • 919/449-0344 • FAX 919/449-0327 • e-mail: twomorrow@aol.com • www.twomorrows.com

Contents

THE NEW

OPENING SHOT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2 (the big announcement!) UNDER THE COVERS . . . . . . . . . . . . .4 (some sterling art) INNERVIEW . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5 (Jack’s 1966 keynote speech) JACK F.A.Q.s . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10 (Mark Evanier on Vinnie Colletta) INCIDENTAL ICONOGRAPHY . . . . . . . .15 (outta this world Kirby designs) KIRBY AS A GENRE . . . . . . . . . . . . .16 (Adam McGovern goes to Godland) GALLERY 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .18 (suspenseful inking by Joe Sinnott) ACCOLADES . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .26 (Kirby Award winners Scott Fresina, the brothers Sherman, and an “oops!” from TJKC’s editor)

ISSUE #43, SUMMER 2005 KIRBY OBSCURA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .64 (more rare Kirby uncovered) KIRBY AS A GENRE: EXTRA! . . . . . .66 (love Italian style) GALLERY 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .68 (can you ink by twilight?) COLLECTOR COMMENTS . . . . . . . . .78 PARTING SHOT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .80 (the flip-side of the illo below)

Front cover inks: JOE SINNOTT Back cover inks & colors: JACK KIRBY Front cover colors: TOM ZIUKO Photocopies of Jack’s uninked pencils from published comics are reproduced courtesy of the Kirby Estate, which has our thanks for their support.

COPYRIGHTS: A.I.M., Batroc, Black Bolt, Captain America, Devil Dinosaur, Dr. Doom, Eternals, Fantastic Four, Galactus, Giant-Man, Hulk, Iron Man, Leader, Lo-Karr, Magneto, Mole Man, Nick Fury, Odin, Prof. X, Sif, Silver Surfer, SpiderMan, Thing, Thor, Wrecker TM & ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc. • Batman, Big Barda, Blue Beetle, Clark Kent, Darkseid, Demon, Forever People, Funky Flashman, Goody Rickels, Granny Goodness, Guardian, In The Days Of The Mob, Jimmy Olsen, Joker, Lashina, Lightray, Losers, Luthor, Manhunter, Metron, Mr. Miracle, Oberon, Orion, Scrapper, Spirit World, Stompa, Superman, Toxl, Wonder Woman TM & ©2005 DC Comics. • Beast Rider, Bruce Lee page, Captain Victory, Mighty Magon, Satan's Six, Silver Star, Sky Masters, Starbaby, Superworld, True Divorce Cases TM & ©2005 Jack Kirby Estate. • “Best Friend’s Sweetheart”, Boys’ Ranch, Fighting American TM & ©2005 Joe Simon & Jack Kirby. • Silver Spider TM & ©2005 Joe Simon. • Destroyer Duck TM & ©2005 Steve Gerber and Jack Kirby.

The Jack Kirby Collector, Vol. 12, No. 43, Summer 2005. Published quarterly by & ©2005 TwoMorrows Publishing, 10407 Bedfordtown Drive, Raleigh, NC 27614, USA. 919-449-0344. John Morrow, Editor. Pamela Morrow, Asst. Editor. Eric Nolen-Weathington, Production Assistant. Single issues: $13 postpaid ($15 Canada, $16 elsewhere). Four-issue subscriptions: $36.00 US, $60.00 Canada, $64.00 elsewhere. All characters are trademarks of their respective companies. All artwork is ©2005 Jack Kirby unless otherwise noted. All editorial matter is ©2005 the respective authors. First printing. PRINTED IN CANADA.

PUBLIC DOMAIN THEATRE . . . . . . .58 (an S&K romance story)

Opening Shot

Announcing: The Jack Kirby Museum & Research Center! 2

ou’ve hounded me since last issue, jamming the TwoMorrows phone lines and filling my e-mail box with request after request for me to reveal the shocking, earth-shattering announcement that’ll change the face of Kirby collecting forever. Well, the wait is over; on August 28, 2005 (Jack’s 88th birthday), the Jack Kirby Museum & Research Center will debut its website at www.kirbymuseum.org! But JKMRC isn’t just any old website devoted to Jack’s legacy. When fully operational, JKMRC will be the ultimate Kirby educational and literary organization, devoted to ensuring that as many people as possible will know about the genius of the man to whom this magazine is devoted. Spearheaded by TwoMorrows’ webmaster Randolph Hoppe (with some help from Jack’s daughter Lisa Kirby and me), JKMRC is being created like any other new museum. It’ll be incorporated as a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization, with a rotating board of directors and an advisory board, to keep ideas fresh and everyone motivated. Initially, Lisa Kirby will be Chair, Rand the Secretary, and I’ll serve as Treasurer, until more board members sign on. So, how does this change Kirby collecting, you ask? Most of the JKMRC website will be driven by a searchable version of the Kirby Checklist, built on the foundation of the printed version first compiled for Ray Wyman’s Art of Jack Kirby book, and later updated by Richard Kolkman for us to publish. This will be an invaluable resource for Kirby fans, historians and scholars, since they’ll not only be able to search the Checklist; the eventual goal is to have each listing include links to examples of the art listed, in various forms! Remember the over 5000 pages of pencil xeroxes we’ve been scanning and archiving for the last couple of years? We’re two-thirds done (with completion targeted for December 2005), and those pages will make up a substantial part of the digital archive. So if you’re looking up Demon #6, for example, after you see the text listing, the page count, inker, and other pertinent information, you can click on a link to see sample pages from the issue in pencil form, ink, and color, plus domestic and international reprints, unpublished pages, layouts, and any other related material available. For the casual user, the website will also feature bi-monthly rotating exhibits of these and other Kirby art; perhaps a New Gods display to start, to be followed by a Fantastic Four retrospective, for example. JKMRC has the full support of the Kirby family, and you can expect to see several people with the last name “Kirby” involved. But it won’t be funded by the Kirbys; while they’ll be supplying access to art, family photos and mementos, the family isn’t in a financial position to bankroll something like this. (above) Jack Kirby, age 3, with That’s why it will be a non-profit organization, with revenue going strictly toward keeping the museum parents Rose and Benjamin. running for everyone’s use and enjoyment. You’ll find this type of historical Our long-term plans do not include funding a physical gallery space or building an art collection—our imagery at JKMRC. online, virtual approach allows access by anyone, anywhere, any time of the day or night, but also keeps (previous page) Mosaic of Jack our fundraising goals attainable. Instead, we’ll focus on organizing traveling exhibits of Kirby’s art at various made from some of the over physical museums and conventions around the world. So expect to see appeals to Jack’s fans to provide 5000 pages of Kirby pencils access to their art for scanning, and possibly loaning it to other museums for display (all with appropriate JKMRC will archive. security and insurance provided). Silver Star TM & ©2005 Jack Kirby Estate. Like brick-and-mortar museums, JKMRC needs the resources of its members, volunteers and donors to build and maintain its educational and literary programs. An endeavor on this scale takes lots of time—to GRAPHITE EDITION develop, continually add to and update the website, to write grant proposals, to pay to ship art around the country (and insure it against loss), to keep track of donations so everything’s always above-board, and a million other things that go into running any non-profit organization. So like any museum, fundraising will be a major consideration. In addition to different membership levels (the higher the level, the more access to he purpose of the Jack Kirby Museum archived art and information you’ll get) there’ll also be ongoing fundraising projects, such and Research Center is to promote and as limited edition publications and prints, t-shirts, and other niceties (see above for a sneak encourage the study, understanding , peak at one in the early planning stages for next Spring!). TwoMorrows Publishing will be preservation and appreciation of the work of producing these items in cooperation with the Kirby Estate, with a share of proceeds going Jack Kirby by illustrating the scope of Kirby ’s toward the Museum, and copies donated to the Museum to be given away to higher-level multi-faceted career, communicating the contributors. We’ll also be donating one page in each issue of TJKC, for JKMRC news and fundraising efforts. I believe that strongly in the Museum’s goals, and I’m putting my stories, inspirations and influences of Jack company’s full resources behind it. Kirby, celebrating the life of Jack Kirby and his Shown here is JKMRC’s Mission Statement. If it sounds like something you can creations, and building understanding of support, I urge you to point your browser to www.kirbymuseum.org on August 28, and join comicbooks and comicbook art. To this end, me in an ongoing effort to see that the goals of the Museum will be achieved.

the Museum will sponsor and otherwise support study, teaching , conferences, discussion groups, exhibitions, displays and publications devoted to Jack Kirby.

John Morrow, editor of TJKC 3

Under The Covers

ur front cover this issue is a 1980s drawing by Jack of the Silver Surfer; the original pencils are shown below. This is a private drawing owned by Jack’s daughter Lisa, and she commissioned inker extraordinaire Joe Sinnott to work his magic on it a couple of years ago. As usual, Joe made it look effortless, turned in an outstanding job, and he was even thoughtful enough to send us a good copy of the inks for publication. Thanks, Joe; it’s good to have you back for a third cover! (Who better to hold the record for most TJKC cover inks?) And be sure to check out this issue’s Suspenseful Inking gallery, for a Kirby pencils-to-Sinnott inks comparison of some newly discovered stats from Tales of Suspense #93. Our galleries this issue are devoted to Kirby inkers, and this is a great chance to see both Joe and Jack in their prime. Our back cover is a piece that’s referenced in the Sherman Brothers interview this issue: Jack’s original character study for Silver Star, from January 1975. Mike Thibodeaux had this piece for sale at his booth at last year’s Comicon International: San Diego, and graciously allowed us to copy it before it was snatched up by an eager Kirby collector. This piece was inked, lettered, and watercolored by Jack himself, and many of the stars had fallen off, leaving brown rubber cement stains on the yellowed paper. We undertook some computer

restoration on the piece, adding the missing stars back in, and returned the hues to as close to its original brilliance as possible. With this issue’s focus on the winners of the Jack Kirby Award, we felt spotlighting Jack’s two “silver” characters on the covers was appropriate; we hope you agree that it was a sterling decision! ★

INNERVIEW (right) Jack speaking at either the 1966 or 1967 New York Comicon (we’re not sure which year); from the collection of the late Mark Hanerfeld. (below) The second of two pencils pieces (the first was shown last issue) that Jack did for Don Heck in 1966, in exchange for Don inking his “Gods” posters. See Don’s 1990s comments to Will Murray below.

1966 Kirby Keynote Speech [Editor’s Note: What you’re about to read, as transcribed by Brian Morris, is Jack Kirby’s Keynote Speech from the 1966 New York Comicon on July 23, 1966. Roy Thomas was responsible for the introductions of a stellar guest list that included Al Williamson, Gray Morrow, Archie Goodwin, Wally Wood, Jim Steranko, Russ Jones, Dan Adkins, Gary Friedrich, Flo Steinberg, Otto Binder, Frank McLaughlin, Dick Giordano, Gil Kane, and many others. Finally, Roy introduced the Guest of Honor, Jack Kirby. Our thanks to Bill Schelly for unearthing this treasure!] ROY THOMAS: It gives me a particular pleasure at this time, without any further adieu, to introduce probably as fine a person as I know. He’s an enjoyable person to share a hamburger with, as I happen to know. And also—and this is a little more important, perhaps for you—is probably as fine an action super-hero comic book artist that has ever picked up a pencil and not been able to put it down again. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Jack Kirby. [applause and whistles] JACK KIRBY: Roy has asked me to announce that there’ll be a refreshment period. ROY: No, a question period. [audience laughs] JACK: [laughs] Well, if there’s a refreshment period, it’s on me. To allay my own fears of facing an audience, I was originally going to get up and say, “I can lick any fan in the house.” But after listening to this Ivan fellow who defended EC, I’d like to say that I’m really a laudable coward [audience laughs], and my monsters are lovable and my characters are lovable, and I don’t think they’ve ever been treated to anything worse than a dull story. [audience chuckles] After seeing the fans here today, and being questioned by one young man who asked me my opinion on the effect of comic books on young people—I personally have never met a comic fan who has given any sign of planting a bomb in Grand Central Station. [laughs] They all seem to be very well behaved. I’ve met a lot of intelligent young people and intelligent old people [laughs] and I’ve had a fine time with all of them, and I respect all of them, and I respect their interest in comics because I share it with them mutually. I’ve enjoyed the work for a long time, ever since I began comic magazine work. I’m glad this occasion has arrived because it gave me the opportunity to see Mr. Binder again and a lot of the faces I haven’t seen in a long time among the professionals, because my wife won’t let me out of the basement. [audience laughs] I have a studio in the basement of the house and my family will lock me in there [laughs] and they disappear and I stay there until they let me out, and the process is done with reservations. AUDIENCE MEMBER: Does Stan Lee ever let you out?

JACK: Well, he won’t let me in [laughs] because when I do come to the office, being a lonely sort of guy, I kind of WILL MURRAY: Did you know Jack very well? DON HECK: Yeah, I used to go over to his house. He did some characters that were printed up. His wife was complaining because he didn’t have any artwork around the house, so he penciled it up and he asked me if I’d ink it. He was going to give me some money for it. I said, “Naw, that’s all right.” I talked him into doing me a couple of pages, which I still have. I told him, “The money, I’ll go through.” (laughs) But I have these two original pages that Jack did just for me that were never printed. One was a big city whatchamacallit, and the other was a big robot type character. It turned out pretty good. Like I say, it was done in 1966. They were originally supposed to be up on the wall and then later on, I saw them when they were sold. There were four of them—they were colored and sold that way. [There was] a Norse-type character with a big spear, which was fun to do. 5

(this spread) A photo of Jack in 1965, working on the above cover to Tales of Suspense #76 (April 1966). Since it was inked by John Romita, and the art Jack’s holding appears to be finished, this was probably just a posed publicity shot. © 2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.

start blabbing a lot. That probably annoys everybody. [laughs] I think they’re anxious to get rid of me. But the main thing I enjoy about comic magazine work, like I say from my own experience, it’s not exactly a maligned medium, it’s kind of a misunderstood medium. That’s why I like you people, because you seem to understand a kind of inventiveness and effort that goes into making these things, and the understanding that we’ll try and restore the characters, and the understanding that comes from our writers, comes from our artists, and it comes from the editors. And all these people combined, I see put out some very effective books, and books that will make you think. Sure, some of them have been primitive, and the pages are

primitive, and some of them have no backgrounds, and the figures race all over the book, and they’re studied for the action, and they’re studied for the style of drawing. But besides all that, the book has to have an extra dimension. When I mention inventiveness, you’ll find that would be my explanation of the extra dimension of comics. If you’ll look back to the comic books of the early ’40s, you’ll find that despite the fact that they had “Biff ” and “Zowie,” they began evolving the little gadgets like the atomic cannon, which were incredible in those days. But buy a comic today—I understand they’re getting cheaper [audience laughs]—and they’ve had gadgets that were forerunners of the complex computers that we have today and many other things that seemed incredible to the people of that time and had a fairy tale quality that many people didn’t accept. But today, I think that kind of inventiveness has come to a solid full flower. The Draculas haven’t disappeared, the weird characters haven’t disappeared. They’re all still there, but they’re dressed better [audience laughs], they speak about DNA, and they speak about RNA, and they speak about complex computers. Recently, I had an experience with a neural brain tap and all you have to do is shake hands with a guy and he’s under hypnosis, and little things like that which are getting more complex for me. So the inventiveness of comics is the one thing that’s really kept me active in the field because you can just twist the human body in so many ways. That has limits. And you can invent a million variations on storyline and they have limits because they’re all based on basic themes. But these kinds of magazines have given the artists and writers and the people associated with comics an opportunity to break into simplified form the fantastic, incredible atmosphere in which we live today, and the actual things that are becoming realities, so I’m for comics and I like doing them, and I like reading them. I’m not ashamed if my son reads comics, and I’m not ashamed if my neighbor reads comics because I know that there are things in them that are just simplified versions of many things that have more lofty frameworks. Sure, you’ll find the same themes in paperbacks and hardcover books, and you’ll find the same thing in the movies. And what the comics do is in the same spirit, and they have the same curiosity, and they have the same willingness to do things with a story and an illustration that an individual author might have. So I’ve never been ashamed of comics, and I’ve never been ashamed of people in it, and I’ve never been ashamed of the people associated with us. Because to me, it’s always been a legitimate medium and it’s always given us room to really let ourselves go, to let our imaginations work, to let us experiment. There’s been a lot of experimentation in comics that’s gone unnoticed and has never been given exposure, and has never been afforded the opportunity to compete with the other media. Actually, comics is a heartbreaking media because it can’t compete with a camera, and it can’t compete with high powered publicity. So the fellas who work in it had, I think, a heartbreaking job because they do so well and the rewards for most of them got fused in a limited atmosphere. So if you’ll pardon

[chuckles] a redundant song every now and then, I’m really proud of being part of comics and I’ve been proud from the beginning. To me, being part of the opportunity of using my own creativeness and watching it evolve to a professional standard has been very gratifying. I can get panned from today until tomorrow, you can throw all the brickbats you like; I’ve been satisfied as far as I’m concerned. I, myself, have grown as a human being in a particular medium, and I’ve grown to understand the people around me and like them. I’ve taken brickbats from them and I still like them, and I make villainous characters and I still like them. So I don’t see things in shades of black and white, and I feel great about it, and there must be something to it, seeing things in grays because I notice my quotient of disturbance [chuckles] is very low and I get along well with people. Actually, I think I’ve evolved. I’ve had the chance to evolve to a point where I’m not ashamed of what I think or what I say or what I do, and the people I know.

chicken soup, but I work it out some way, you know? So The Thing is very real to me, The Hulk is real to me, they’re real people. They’re people in situations. Actually, when I was younger, I could never see them that way. You know, Captain America was a slam-bang, gutsy guy. And I asked myself, “If I was Captain America, what would I do if fifty guys came against me?” and I had a great time doing that. I’d kick one guy here and I’d belt one guy there. [audience chuckles] And if three guys came at me, I’d dive under the table and come up behind them. So I thought in black-and-white in those days. I guess I was young, and now I must see people the way they really are and I hope it reflects in the comic magazine because I think that the people who read comic magazines today demand it of me. They wanted to know more about people so they can understand themselves. So I’ll make The Thing tragic and I’ll make The Hulk kind of frustrated because he is a hulk and can’t be anything else, and it kind of keeps the story pot boiling. [chuckles] So there, actually, is the core of what keeps the artist going, and I think that’s what keeps the writer going too because the writer and the artist and the editors are men who can see things in a wry or a dry manner.

and that’s not as satisfying as running through the entire magazine without being able to grasp the story in its entirety. So experimenting in this fashion, we find that there are limits there and so we simplify the stories more, and we’ve simplified the gadgets a little more and we’ve given them more intricate designs, but we’ve given it to you so it’s palatable and it’s entertaining and you would still like us. [laughs] I can’t say any more about the work from where I sit. The only ones who can make any more comments about comics are you people and if you’d like to ask me any question at all, or anything that’s been bugging you through all these years, why, let’s go and I’ll be as much help as I can. RICHARD LUPOFF: I’m Dick Lupoff. This one has been bugging me since about 1940. JACK: Sure, sure. [audience laughs] RL: Could you give us maybe a five- to ten-minute rundown on just who did what in starting off Captain Marvel? What was Bill Parker’s role, Lieberson, Bill Crowley, Ed Herron, your own, Otto Binder, or anybody else who was in there? JACK: Well, first, I’d like to explain my role in it. I worked with Joe Simon at the time and I formed my own impressions of what went on. I know that Eddie Herron, as far as I know, had a lot to do with the—I’m not saying who created what. All I can say is I have the impression to this day that Eddie Herron had a large part in the forming of Captain Marvel and that Joe and I, I believe, did the first two stories, and that’s about all I know. No, I won’t say more because I can’t say more. AUDIENCE MEMBER: I wanted to say, sir, with a great deal of respect [unintelligible]. [unintelligible] so you get a feeling of glorifying our time, by glorifying one man, by showing one [unintelligible] higher. Do you feel that way?

I’d just like you people to know that, and I like you and I respect you, and when I draw, it’s to entertain you. If there’s something that I don’t think you’ll like, I won’t draw it because if you won’t like it, I won’t like it. On a human level, I think no differently than you do. So my life, in a way, has been devoted to a lot of people I haven’t seen, and in a selfish way for myself. I’ll say nothing more in that direction except that it’s certainly nice being here with you today, and I’m enjoying every minute of it. As far as characters are concerned, I know someone wanted me to stress a comic character. There has been a change in the characters superficially. The characters of the early ’40s and the characters of what I call the Groovy Sixties are essentially the same, but like I say, their trappings are different, they must be more showy. I can’t give you a panel without a background. I can’t give you a simplified comic hero. I can’t give you a monster that’s just a cutout. I think you demand more and I have to give you more, and I find it more interesting to do it, so I enjoy doing these complicated monsters, and I enjoy when a monster has an inferiority complex, I enjoy when he has a tragic life because I work it out for him. [audience laughs] Plus, I don’t give him

If I have to draw a knight in armor, and I have to draw the armor as it really was—if I had to draw it to scale, and if I had to draw it to exact detail, it would bore me stiff and I’d hightail it to my uncle’s clothing store and maybe become a vice president. [audience laughs] The fact is that if I can innovate and I can fake to my heart’s content and come up with something that looks interesting, that’s the thing that sustains me, and I think that’s the thing that entertains you. We’ve seen knights in armor dozens of times. We know what the armor looks like, but we’d like to see it a little differently. We’d like to see it in a different setting, and so that’s how I create the characters. We take the incredible, and we mix them with the real, and you get a very, very interesting concoction. I think it’s worth the price of a magazine just to see it visually and absorb the premise of the story. Recently, we tried to raise the level of the story to where the format of the story becomes a little more complex and science-fictiony and we find that too much food for thought leaves you static on one particular page,

JACK: Yes, I do. I believe that comics are sort of fables and people have always liked fables and they have that kind of value. [chuckles] I don’t know if they’ll go down in history as initiators of great fables, but I believe that the comics project that, and I believe that they attract the leaders on that kind of basis, and I, myself, enjoy them on that basis. And that’s why I enjoy doing the Asgard legends. I juggle them around a bit, but I find that’s a lot of fun. So in a way, I kind of create my own fables too. For instance, in the new “Tales of Asgard,” [Thor #129] one of the characters, particularly one called Harokin, when I saw this fella, he’s supposed to be about varying height, I kind of saw him as a Mongol. I treated him as a Mongol and I dressed him as a Mongol and in the last chapter—I don’t know whether any of you have seen it yet, I don’t know if it’s out yet, but he gets a Mongol funeral. [audience chuckles] And although the story is set in a Viking setting, I feel that there was something fascinating about this particular type of thing and it kind of set me on edge and I just did it because I feel it might do the same thing for you and you might find it entertaining. So I did it and you’re stuck with it, unless you don’t want to pay for the book. [laughs] AUDIENCE MEMBER: In your Joe Simon/Jack Kirby team, I don’t understand how it was done, like who wrote it and who did the visuals. ROY: This is one I want to make sure we get. Exactly who did what in the Joe Simon/Jack Kirby team that was so prominent for so many years? 7

JACK: Gee, I’d like to say this, that Joe and I did everything together. Joe could draw and he could ink and the only thing he topped me at was production, which I’m still clumsy at and ain’t worth a damn at. But it ends up he’s a competent inker, a fine artist and a good storyteller and a good editor, and I respect Joe as one of the few fine professionals in the field. So when I first entered the field, being four-foot-eleven, and Joe was six-footnine [audience laughs], I felt it was kind of an odd arrangement, but I couldn’t help looking up to him. [audience laughs] If you’ll forgive the pun there, I’ve literally done that and I respect Joe quite a bit. I’ve nothing more to say on Joe, [laughs] except that I feel he’s a fine young, good man and I’m sorry that circumstances are ending so that we couldn’t work together. AUDIENCE MEMBER: [unintelligible] ROY: The question was if the [1966 Harvey relaunch of] Fighting American should prove a success, are any features worthy of Jack Kirby as a part of them. JACK: If Fighting American should prove a success, I would deem it Joe’s good fortune, and Harvey’s good fortune, and wish them a lot of luck. All I can say is that Marvel’s been very kind to me and I like the people. I’ve been working there seven years and I’ve been very happy at it. So if Joe could make some arrangements to come over to Marvel [audience laughs], I’d be happy to work with him and it would be like the good old days. What else can I say? [laughs] AUDIENCE MEMBER: [unintelligible]

ROY: The question, at least two points: First, why did you create so many strips and then just carry them a few issues and then drop them? And secondly, why was there someone else in the same style to carry on? JACK: Is this strips in general or a specific strip? ROY: In general. Like Captain America, you did ten or eleven issues—. JACK: Oh, yes. I can’t exactly account for the gaps in going to work, but it’s better to get a man to imitate your style because the reader, himself, is conditioned with your style if he’s a regular for a flat number of issues. Oh, it’s not going to send the reader into delirium tremors if he sees a style that’s a radical departure from your own. But it’s good to replace you with a man whose style is a little like yours, or very much like yours, to put the reader at ease because he might be used to seeing a strip in that particular style. He might like it in that particular style and it wouldn’t be good salesmanship not to give him that particular style, but it has to please him. ROY: I think what he also wanted to know, Jack, was why did you and Joe Simon do so many strips that you just sort of started and let go; because you just wanted to keep creating new things? For instance, Captain America. Why did you often start things and then turn them to other people? Was it just boredom? JACK: No, it wasn’t boredom. It’s just that we left where we worked. [laughs] And these strips had to be done and other people did them, and they did them very well, and the books sold well. But Joe and I were young, and the field itself was young, and there

that very much. It’d get me a yuck, I don’t know about everybody else. [audience laughs] AUDIENCE MEMBER: I believe that we’ll all agree that Jack Kirby, if not the finest comic artist, is certainly one of the very top artists. I’m going to ask him a question that as a lawyer, I should never ask. JACK: As a lawyer, I won’t tangle with you. [audience chuckles] AUDIENCE MEMBER: Because a lawyer always asks questions that he already knows the answer to and I really don’t know the answer, but I think it hasn’t been asked of you and I think in all honesty, it should be because there is the artist who is still engaged in his work now for many, many years and production-wise, one of the most prolific, and certainly one of the best; has the Comics Code interfered with your work? [audience laughs]

were many places for us and we worked for almost everybody and we had a wonderful time at it because, well, we did so many things, we did so many different types of strips. Actually, I’m glad that we did run around as much as we did and we got to make new innovations because of that. I believe that we first initiated the double-spread in comics and the narrative type of script. I don’t remember whether that was done before we did it, but we had a lot of fun doing that. So I can only look back on that particular time with a lot of fondness. It makes me feel kind of old, but I really enjoyed it. [laughs] I’m glad I hopped around. DON THOMPSON: Barring your present work, what is your favorite of all the strips that you worked on? JACK: My favorite is every damn character I ever worked on. I liked them all and I always like the one that I’m doing now because I’m involved with him now and we know each other well. So I’m not going to make him any person I’m not going to want to talk to or I’m going to walk away from, so I’m going to like him. Whether he’s a hero or a villain, despite all his faults, I’m involved with him and I’ll like him and I’ll try to solve his problem. I could go on and on, but I like them all. I like the underwear heroes, as we call them, the side characters that few people will ever know, will ever study any of the crowd scenes that I’ve drawn. I’m drawing it, you’ll probably see my brother-in-law there [audience laughs] or my old landlord, or somebody there. But those are people

I’ve known and people I use as extras whenever the production calls for extras. [chuckles] JIM STERANKO: Jack, one of your innovations was the kid gangs that you did back in the ’40s, like The Boy Commandos and The Newsboy Legion. You probably patterned them after The Dead End Kids and all those movies back then. Tell us a little bit about those stories. JACK: Well, yes. The kid groups just had to arrive, that’s all. It was time for them and the kid groups, we felt that it was time for comics to be having a thing like that. And we felt that it was time that the kid gangs to come in and we had to start off for Marvel. We did the first one for Marvel called The Young Allies and from that, we hopped to The Boy Commandos, and they did very well. I believe they were the forerunners of many of the adult teams of comic heroes that we have today. We did use three or four characters in unison, and I believe that strips today like The Fantastic Four or Challengers of the Unknown are probably the descendants of that type of strip. AUDIENCE MEMBER: What was the first character, super-hero, that you ever did and what was the last one that you ever did with Joe Simon? JACK: I believe the first super-hero character that I did was The Blue Beetle, which I took over from a nice boy named Charlie Nicholas, and the last one I did with Joe was Fighting American, and I enjoyed

JACK: I’ll answer that very willingly. I’d say that at the beginning, I wasn’t much impressed with the Code because they used to make me take the tomahawks out of the hands of my Indians. [audience laughs] They left me with a lot of smiling, violent Indians. [audience laughs and applauds] All I can say is that the poses were classic. [audience laughs] Everybody was rolling around on the ground or poised over somebody else. But they did nothing but... they did nothing. [audience laughs] So like I say, I was safe there. I didn’t like it, but I was safe. [laughs] I’d like to say this, that the Code has matured too and the Code has actually helped the comic book survive, and has left them the saleable elements that make the comic book entertaining. They’ve shown a lot of good sense and they’ve had people that have made a lot of wise decisions, and certainly, I respect them now. I believe that the Code as a self-regulatory body is the best thing for comics. It’s given us a form of respect and it hasn’t hurt it a bit. So as an artist, it’s the only thing I can say because so far, it hasn’t interfered with me one iota and I’d know if it had because I’d get pretty sore if I was frustrated. And the worst thing that can happen to an artist is to get him frustrated, [chuckles] because he throws things. [audience laughs] ROY: All right, any more questions? [pause] All right, then, on behalf of the Comicon, I’d like to thank Jack for the fans here. [audience applauds] MALE VOICE: I have a plaque here that says, “Jack Kirby, Guest of Honor, 1966 Comicon, July 23rd.” [audience applauds] JACK: Well, I just can’t say how much of a pleasure it was being here today and seeing all you people, especially the wise guys who write in letters and tag me for putting in four fingers instead of five. [audience laughs] I’ve been waiting for you guys. [audience chuckles] I get some who tell me that I’ve drawn two left feet and much to my surprise, I have. [audience laughs] So I’d like to say that I even like you. [audience laughs] So whether you pan me or you like the work, as long as I can keep trying it out and satisfying you, why, that’ll gratify me, and I’d like to say thank you again. [audience applauds] ★

Mark evanier (below) A nice Collettainked page from Thor #163 (April 1969). (next page, top) Some of Vinnie’s weakest work, from FF Annual #3 (1965), undoubtedly a rush job. (next page, center) Fabulous Bill Everett inks on the splash from Thor #175 (April 1970). (next page, bottom) Bob Powell was never one of Marvel’s top artists, but in Tales To Astonish #68 (June 1965), Colletta’s inks at least gave his pencils the “Marvel” look. Thor, Giant-Man, Mole Man, Prof. X, Thing TM and ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.

Jack F.A.Q.s

A column answering Frequently Asked Questions about Kirby by Mark Evanier et the record show that if this issue of The Jack Kirby Collector is tardy getting to press, it’s mostly my fault. I’m behind on everything in what I laughingly call my life and career, and this is getting in way late. I learned a great many things from Mr. Kirby, but not how to always produce work at a superhuman pace. I’m told a key topic of this issue is inkers. As has been noted, Jack was usually not too fussy about who inked his work—less so than any artist these days would be, less so than I thought he should have been. But he came out of that Depression Era mindset that held that few things are more important in life than bringing home a weekly paycheck to provide for one’s family. If somebody had the job of inking Kirby

pencils or needed it, Jack recoiled from the notion of denying them that paycheck. He also sometimes didn’t see what the inkers were doing. After the Simon-Kirby studio dissolved and Jack was no longer an editor/packager, he was in no position to view the finished art before publication. Only now and then during his infrequent office visits to Marvel in the Sixties would he catch a peek at some inked issue of Fantastic Four as it moved through the production process. When Jack went to DC in 1970, he was officially the editor of what he did, but his first inker there, Vince Colletta, was based in New York and so, of course, was DC Comics. After Colletta was done with an issue, only rarely did someone go to the trouble of sending stats of it out to the book’s editor in Thousand Oaks, California. It wasn’t until Mike Royer replaced Colletta that the inked pages passed by Jack en route to publication. Mike was then living in Whittier, and when he finished a story, he delivered it—by mail or in person—to Kirby. Jack also rarely looked at the printed comics. When he finished a job, it was outta sight/outta mind. On Wednesday, he sometimes couldn’t tell you a thing about the story he’d finished on Tuesday... and by the time it came out, several months later, it was Ancient History to him. Only now and then did it occur to him to check and see what the inkers had done to his pencils. (I do think, however, he absorbed enough of what Joe Sinnott was doing with them to incorporate Sinnott-style touches into the penciling.) In any case, when Jack did look at a finished story of his, what he generally studied was the storytelling, not the fine line details. The storytelling was what was important to Jack, and it usually endured even with a poor inker. This segues to our first question this time, and maybe the only one I’ll get around to answering. It was sent in by someone who signs his e-mails “Smokin Feckler,” without even an apostrophe in there... I’ve enjoyed the panels you’ve hosted with great comic artists at the San Diego Con but I have to wonder about a topic that keeps coming up. Everyone is always dumping on Vince Colletta. Bob Oksner said he hated his inking. John Buscema called him “the most untalented person in the business.” John Romita said he inked with a whiskbroom. Gene Colan, Herb Trimpe, Marie Severin and everyone else who ever worked for Marvel seems to have hated his work. How did this man get work? Did anyone like him? Well, yes, a lot of readers liked him. More than you’d imagine.

As I think I’ve mentioned here, when Kirby replaced him with Royer, there was a brief avalanche of negative mail. The Ronin Ro biography of Kirby, Tales to Astonish, says something about how when the initial reaction came in, Jack was furious with me for forcing Royer on him. That’s a gross exaggeration, and what reaction did occur—from Jack and from New Gods readers—was only momentary. As anyone who ever heard Jack mention Mike’s work knows, he was very fond of Mike’s inking and always tried to engage his services. Much of the early, negative mail complained that Royer was “changing Kirby” too much, which I thought was a wrongheaded but completely understandable assumption. Most of these fans were used to Kirby/ Colletta and that, to them, was Kirby artwork. For that matter, I really loved the art in Thor until I got a couple of good looks at Jack’s penciling and realized that the end-product was good in spite of Mr. Colletta, not because of him. It genuinely hurt my enjoyment of those comics to realize how much of the work was being lost or flattened. And obviously, a lot of editors liked Vince. He certainly got a lot of work during his many years in the industry. I thought what he did to great pencil art was generally inexcusable, but I also think it’s wrong to dump all the blame on him. Some of his detractors act like he forced his way into the Marvel offices each month, grabbed Jack’s Thor pages when no one was looking, and ran home and inked them. In point of fact, just about every ink job Colletta did in his life was assigned to him because someone in power thought he was good—or at least, good enough. What’s more, when he handed in one issue,

they usually handed him another to ink. And another and another... There were certainly editors who genuinely liked what he did, at least on some assignments. Stan Lee thought Colletta was a disaster on some jobs, including inking Kirby on Fantastic Four, and he turned down Vince’s repeated offers to ink a half-

dozen Marvels a month... but he did feel that the inker’s style was important on Thor. At one point, Bill Everett replaced Colletta on that strip for what I thought was some of the best inking ever done on Jack Kirby artwork. When sales took the slightest downturn—for reasons that may have had nothing to do with the inking—Everett was gone and Vinnie was back. Stan sometimes found other places to use him, as well. Roy Thomas has said that The Invaders sold better when Colletta was inking Frank Robbins’ pencils than later, after he’d yielded to the nagging of others to put someone more appropriate on the job. There are many other examples. From what I could tell, Carmine Infantino did not assign Colletta to ink all of Kirby’s DC work because Vinnie was fast or cheap or even Italian. He just plain thought Colletta was the man for the job. Jim Shooter was later said to be a big champion of Colletta. Which is not to say some editors didn’t hire the man because of his speed. Colletta could turn a 20-page book around in three days, or less than a third of the time of many “good” inkers. If he had a couple of decent assistants at the time, it could go even faster than that. Editors are often faulted by their superiors for a book shipping late, so Vinnie was a handy guy to know. The man was also usually willing to work for whatever the minimum page rate was at the time. Editors are also faulted when the cost of producing their comics goes up... so again, Vinnie was a handy guy to know. He was also valuable as a “saver” of bad pencil art. This brings us to a comment that others have made, but I think there’s something to it. They said that Colletta was a “C-minus” inker. Everything he inked was a “C-minus” in quality when he was done with it. If you gave him “A-plus” pencils by Kirby or Colan or Buscema or any of those guys, they came back a “C-minus.” But if you gave him “D” grade pencils—and even good editors occasionally hire the wrong guy and wind up with them—Vince could turn them into a “C-minus.” Beyond that, he had inertia working for him. Colletta could be a charming guy, and he was already well-established in the business. If I’d suddenly been hired as an editor at DC or Marvel back then, I think I’d have had a hard time telling him, “Sorry, Vinnie. I know you need the work. I know everyone else thinks what you’ve been doing for us is good enough, but I don’t.” I probably would have said it but it wouldn’t have been easy. I might have been worried that next week, I’d be desperate to have an issue of something inked overnight for the bottom rate. But yes, most artists I’ve heard mention his name disliked what Colletta did. The only exception that comes to mind at the moment is George Tuska. In 1970 when Steve Sherman and I met Steve Ditko, he asked us 11

Kirby went to Infantino, who was in charge at DC, and said that he wanted Royer... but he also wanted Colletta to get enough other work to make up for it. Infantino agreed, though he convinced Jack that Vince should be retained on Jimmy Olsen. For several months thereafter, when Jack phoned the office, he inquired to make certain Vince wasn’t suffering for the loss of the Fourth World assignments. Nelson Bridwell, who was Jack’s DC liaison, always assured him that Colletta was getting plenty of work. Not long after, I had a phone conversation with Nelson. We were discussing how rare it was for a penciler to demand a change of inker, and Nelson baffled me for a moment by proclaiming, “Colletta has won the Triple Crown.” I asked him what he meant by that. He replied, “Vince has now been ‘fired’ by Jack Kirby, Neal Adams and Alex Toth—the three best artists in comics.” Obviously from their recent comments, other top artists— Mr. Buscema, Mr. Colan and others—would have made a similar demand if they’d felt they could get away with it. (In a recent interview, John Romita said, “You’ll note that Colletta never inked my work. That was one of the perks of being Art Director at Marvel.”)

(above) Colletta inks Buscema on this page from Thor #178, the oneissue fill-in while Kirby was over trying to save Silver Surfer from cancellation with issue #18. Jack only did one issue after this one, and #179 had a lot of lastminute patchwork by the Marvel Bullpen. However, notice that these pages say “Thor #175”, making us wonder if this Buscema story sat on the shelf a few months before seeing print. (right) Believe it or not, that’s Steve Ditko pencils under the Colletta inks on this Hulk panel from Tales To Astonish #66 (April 1965). (next page) Reader Shane Foley noticed Colletta erased the villain’s head from the center of this Journey Into Mystery #112 Kirby panel! Thor, Sif, Odin, Hulk TM and ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.

about the new Kirby books that were then about to debut from DC. When we told him Colletta was handling the inking, he winced and said that he would probably not look at the comics because of that. Back when he was working for Marvel, Ditko said, he’d pick up the latest issues in the office and always check the credits before taking the books home. If he found Colletta’s name—especially as Kirby’s embellisher—he would make a point of putting the comic back, or even in a wastebasket. And he’d make sure Stan saw what he was doing and knew the reason why. Alex Toth and Neal Adams both demanded that DC not give their pencil art to Colletta. With Adams, it happened only once before he laid down that law. Colletta inked his pencil art on Brave and Bold #81 and when Adams saw the finished art, Neal insisted the book could not go out that way. He and Dick Giordano (I think Dick helped him) wound up re-inking most of it. Both Toth and Kirby were inked many times by Colletta before they put an end to it. In both cases, the last straws were personal conversations with him in which he bragged, they felt, about how little time he was spending on their pages. Jack could tolerate poor inking but he couldn’t abide a guy not trying. That, and a few other problems with Colletta—unrelated to the quality of his work—finally did it for Jack. For one of the few times in his life, he overcame his natural reluctance to interfere with a fellow artist’s income and asked to have someone replaced. Even then, it wasn’t much of a firing.

A few months ago, I received an angry letter from an industry professional complaining that I was spearheading a “Vince Colletta Hate Campaign” by allowing those I was interviewing to utter comments such as the ones cited above. Since Colletta was now dead and in no position to defend himself, this was unfair—or so my outraged correspondent insisted. “John Buscema never had the guts to say that when the man was alive,” he wrote. My response was that, first of all, Buscema had every right to say how he felt about what was done to his art. That he did not say this (or say it very loudly) when Colletta was still around and trying to work in the field was largely because of that same Depressionchild value system about not costing another artist his livelihood. John had been a gentleman all those years and once Colletta’s income could not be impacted, he had no reason not to say how he felt. (In fairness to Colletta, it must be noted that Buscema didn’t think much of most of the inkers assigned to his work. He thought about 50% of them were deficient in skill and another 45% or so were just stylistic mismatches.) Secondly, I have no personal dislike for Vince Colletta. He was a charming, friendly guy. If I disliked anything hereabouts—“hate” is way too strong a word for the topic—it was the niggardly pay and tight deadlines that inhibited all the talented folks who worked in comics back then. Colletta was not, in my opinion, among the more talented... but he also was a guy stuck working under those rules. He just coped with them in a different manner

than some others. If they were going to pay that kind of money, he was going to give them that kind of effort. Colletta figured that for what he was being paid, 60-90 minutes on a page was plenty, and he usually thought he did a good enough job, given that limitation. And you know something? On one level, he was right. It wasn’t that he wasn’t giving his employers what they paid for. He was. They were paying the lowest possible fees and he was giving them the least amount of effort. If there was any imbalance in that trade-off, Vince was probably giving them more. And today he looks bad to some of us because most everyone else was giving them a lot more.

The whole issue of Vince Colletta raises an interesting moral/ethical conundrum—one that I won’t pretend to be able to answer. I can only raise it and bat it around for a bit. The man was receiving a certain low rate for his work. He’d finish a job and they’d say, “Thanks, Vince.” Often, they’d say, “Great job.” Almost always, they’d give him another, and there’d be more to follow. Okay, so answer me this: Why should he have spent more time on an assignment? I mean, I’m glad that a Joe Sinnott or a Frank Giacoia would devote three or four hours to a page... or however long they felt necessary to do their best work. I have a Kirby/Sinnott original that when I showed it to Joe, he said, “Oh, I remember that page. It took an entire day!” Still, even when he only spent twice as long as Colletta, he did not receive twice the money. What you had for years in comics was a system of limited rewards and built-in disincentives to doing a good job. As Harvey Kurtzman noted in several interviews, darn near the only way to boost your income if you were a freelancer was to expend less effort per page and knock it out faster. Maybe the question shouldn’t be, “Why was Colletta’s work so bad?” Maybe it oughta be, “Why was anyone’s any good?” I mean, if you stuff envelopes for a living and your boss will pay you the same for stuffing one hundred or one thousand,

do you stuff one thousand? True, there’s such a thing as giving maximum effort just for the sake of maximum effort. There’s also such a thing as making it just too easy for people to underpay you and exploit your devotion. A lot of talented people got out of comics in the Golden and Silver Ages because of that dilemma. For those who remained, not only was the money bad but there didn’t seem to be any way to ever make it much better. If you were writing novels, there was an easy path to higher income: Just write a best-seller. The more your work sold, the more you made. If you were writing TV shows or movies, high ratings or grosses would translate to increased compensation. It worked that way in almost every form of entertainment. Except comic books.

lacked many of the rewards that now accrue to a top comic artist. Today, they all receive credit. Today, they get their original art back and often have a say in who inks or even colors their work. Today, most receive reprint fees if the work is reprinted and royalties in some form if the work sells above a certain level or gets reprinted overseas. There’s also a certain amount of celebrity and that adds another level of personal gratification, as well as certain financial incentives. Obviously, artists of that bygone era tried to do good work so that editors would hire them and so they’d receive whatever the company’s top page rate then was. Equally obvious is that you didn’t have to put in as much effort as some artists did to make roughly the same money. The Vince Collettas of the world proved that.

In the time before DC and Marvel instituted their royalty/incentive plans—which sadly was when Jack did his best-selling comics—it didn’t work like that. If the book you were doing doubled in sales, your income did not double. Maybe, just maybe, you could get them to kick your rate up a buck or so a page but that was about it. So why did so many comic book writers and artists deliver great work for not-so-great money? The easy answer—and it’s not completely wrong just because it’s easy—lies somewhere in the term “Pride of Craft.” A lot of those who drew comics back then had an extraordinary sense of accomplishment about how the work looked just before they handed it in. In some cases, it was either then or never. A penciler drew his page, sent it off and never saw it again: No say in who inked it, who lettered it, who retouched it, who colored it, how it was printed. The editor could wipe his butt with it (reportedly, a frequent threat/joke of Mort Weisinger’s) and the artist couldn’t stop him. So if you drew comics and you were going to have any self-satisfaction over what you’d created, better to have it before the art disappeared down that low-budget assembly line. Caring about it after that phase could be dangerous to the soul. The “Greatest Generation of Comic Artists”—as some might call Kirby and his contemporaries—

One of the many things that impressed me about Mr. Kirby was his Herculean work ethic. As I’ve said many times when people remark on how fast Jack was, that’s only part of the story. Yeah, he was fast. But his staggering lifetime output of pages was more a function of his willingness to stay at the drawing table, night and day, seven days a week. Why did he do it? Well, one reason—a perfectly good one, of course—was for the money. (See earlier comments about providing for one’s family.) Jack was very proud of the fact that each day, he turned nothing into something. He sat down with blank paper and a couple of pencils and by the time he crawled into bed, he’d created something that would buy groceries for the Kirby household. He also—and again, this had to do with money and providing for himself and his family—wanted very much to change a system that paid him and his fellow creators so poorly for what they did. Among the many ways in which Jack differed from most of his contemporaries is that I don’t think very many of them did their work with a conscious motive of taking comics or their employer to the next level. At various times in his career—especially at the dawn of the Marvel Age in ’61 and later when he went to DC in 1970—Jack felt like the extra effort he was putting into his work was an investment in stimulating the company. He wasn’t sitting there thinking, as some might, “If I make this better, maybe I’ll get a raise of two dollars a page.” With Kirby, it was more like, “If I make this better, maybe the company will prosper in new ways and they’ll figure out how valuable I am and I can get some real money out of them.” If you look at almost any interview in which Jack spoke of the early days of Fantastic Four and The Hulk, back when he was slaving day and night for an especially bad page rate, you’ll see him say things like, “I had to work that hard. I knew I had to build Marvel into something.” The great tragedy of his life was that he had helped make that happen... and then, he felt, been treated as if none of it mattered. Above and beyond verbal promises that he believed had not been honored, there was a maddening failure to recognize his worth. No one had looked at sales on books he had co-created or at the merchandising value of characters he had designed and said, “Hey, that Kirby guy is valuable to have around. We’d 13

better give him a much better deal so he’ll stick around.” That was never said. It should have been, if not for moral reasons then strictly as a prudent business move. But it wasn’t. Ultimately, Jack’s financial rewards for all that he did in comics were not that much higher than if he’d just done the minimum. That he didn’t go the Colletta route was largely because he was a very optimistic man with a fighting spirit. He kept at it, forever believing that the next project was the one where he’d finally get his reward and amass that fortune that he wanted to be able to leave to Roz and the kids. And he also had a lot of that sensibility that I keep dragging into this discussion: Pride of Craft. Most artists of his day had that, and Jack certainly did. He always handed in the best work that he was then capable of producing. There were times when medical problems lowered the quality of the pages. There were also times— his last year or so at Marvel in 1969, for example—when he was very depressed at the way his employers were treating him, and that was not without its impact on the work. But he never consciously spent less time on his pages, nor did he let the knowledge that his work would later be diminished by others (and the cheapest-possible printing process) ever diminish his pride in how it looked when it left him. There was, of course, frustration. During the period of depression I just mentioned, he would occasionally finish an especially good full-pager for Thor and show it to his wife, who was equally unhappy with how Marvel was treating Jack. Roz would look at the page and say, “It’s too good for them.” Jack would say, “You’re right,” and instead of sending it in to Marvel, he’d give it to her. She’d put it in a little folder she kept as “her” Kirby Art Collection. A lot of those pages are still around, happily uninked and still showing off Jack’s meticulous, powerful pencil line. Some have been reproduced in this magazine. Fans assume they were rejected pages or leftovers... but they were actually pages that Jack consciously decided to give to Roz instead of sending them in to be degraded by the process, “sold” for the meager page rate he was receiving. It was a somewhat ineffectual gesture. Once he gave Roz a page, he’d have to draw another version of the same thing to finish off the issue, and the new version would always be just as good, if not better. At least once upon seeing a replacement page, Roz went and got the previous interpretation from her folder and told Jack to send it to Marvel instead and to give her the second try. As gestures go, withholding a page that way didn’t mean a lot. Jack was just trying to feel for a moment like he was resisting a system he felt was bad for him, bad for comics, bad for everyone. It also meant he retained a few of the pages in which he took such pride. None of this is meant to suggest that artists today lack that sense of personal satisfaction... but artists today have all those other reasons to do a good job. (And good for them. An artist or writer who creates something wonderful deserves fame and fortune for it. The fact that his or her predecessors were shamefully undercompensated doesn’t change that.) It’s just that Pride of Craft was about all some Golden and Silver Age artists had going for them. There’s a saying in this world, “You get what you pay for.” I don’t think that’s quite right. The way it should go is, “You shouldn’t expect more than you pay for.” Because there are times when you do get more—a lot more. Most of the great comic book writers and artists, for instance, delivered considerably more than they were paid for. So in a way, I’ve come to feel that anger at Vince Colletta is somewhat misguided. I look at the art he inked back then— especially Kirby art—and I think, “Boy, that’s not very good,” and I wish the work had gone to Sinnott or Giacoia or Everett or any of several other guys. But then, I remember how all these men were treated... how poorly they were paid, how fast they had to crank it out, and how 14

some of them lived in dread fear of getting sick, because not only didn’t they have health insurance, but they didn’t get paid when they got sick. And it doesn’t make the finished art any better but it redirects my low estimation of Vince Colletta to ask, “Well, what would you expect for eight dollars a page?” Next question? ★ (Mark Evanier welcomes questions and also visits to his websites: his daily weblog, www.newsfromme.com, and his not-daily site, www.POVonline.com. Both have plenty of content about Mr. Kirby and both have a link where you can e-mail your Kirby Kwestions. And if you’ve never sampled TwoMorrows’ collections of Mark’s acclaimed POV (BUY 2, GET columns (shown at left), for 1 FREE!) a limited time, when you purchase two for the regular price of $34 US Postpaid, you get the third one FREE! Check the TwoMorrows house ad to order by mail, or go to www.twomorrows.com)

MARK EVANIER “POV” BUNDLE

(above) Outside of Thor, you didn’t see much of Vince Colletta’s inks on covers, only interiors. But here’s a particularly striking cover sporting Vinnie’s inks over Kirby’s pencils, from Tales To Astonish #64 (Feb. 1965). Characters TM and ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.

He Got THIS:

From THIS!

Incidental Iconography An ongoing analysis of Kirby’s visual shorthand, and how he inadvertently used it to develop his characters, by Sean Kleefeld n the past three columns, we’ve The design is, unfortunately, less looked at characters that have powerful. Instead of the form-fitting enjoyed, largely through their associations, a “action” suit that seems to befit the hero of an fair amount of notoriety. In part because of their adventure strip, we have a bulky, association with Jack, naturally, and in part because they were woven in unglamorous bag with no decoration to speak of. It is interthe tapestry-turned-juggernaut that is Marvel. One could easily argue that esting to note, though, that it is this design that carries the Wizard doesn’t garner the recognition of, say, Dr. Doom or Darkseid, through—after a fashion—into Challengers of the Unknown but he’s certainly had a greater longevity and proclivity than Sky Masters. and Fantastic Four. To his credit, though, Jack tightens the Sky Masters is one of Jack’s lesser seen creations, due largely to suits somewhat for those series, making them essentially a the fact that it hasn’t been reprinted very often and the reprints that have more dynamic version of lycra that most super-heroes of the been published are frequently in limited quantities. But it is summarily a time wore. Of further interest is that Jack maintained some beautiful work on several levels, not the least of which is the amazing continuity within Sky Masters by keeping the K-1 helmet collaboration of Jack Kirby and Wally Wood. I highly recommend Greg instead of “upgrading” to the more integrated helmet style Theakston’s Complete Sky Masters, which reprints the comic strip in its seen with MC-2. entirety, but if that proves itself to be unavailable, I might also suggest a Curiously, the space suits shown in the Sunday strips trip to the local library to browse their old newspaper collections. Well (which were actually running a separate storyline from the worth examining for anyone with an interest in Jack’s art. weekday strip) are of a markedly different design. More Sky Masters of the Space Force was an action/adventure drama interesting is that this design seems to have not been taken which was, although perhaps a bit more dramatic than the real space profrom government designs, but from the cover of the then. gram, fairly well steeped in contemporary space theory. The “Sky Masters’ recently-published Robert A. Heinlein novel, Have Space 58 19 ca cir Early MC-2 suit, Scrap Book” especially appeared every Sunday and provided insights into Suit—Will Travel. The last few Sunday strips revert to the what was actually being worked on and considered by the U.S. government. The weekday strip suit designs; however, as main Sky Masters strip tended to take those ideas and extrapolate stories based shown in Complete Sky Masters, this can on what life might be like should those ideas start bearing fruit. be attributed to Jack swiping his own, What is particularly interesting about the strip visually, and why we’re focusearlier material for sources. Indeed, the ing on it this issue is that Jack’s designs seem be based more on fact than in last Sunday strip was entirely lifted from imagination. With many of Jack’s creations, the overall design of a character was previous artwork, including one panel based on what Jack thought would make for a powerful visual. A quick look at Mr. from his attempted Space Busters Miracle and his Aero Discs is proof enough for that. With Sky Masters, Jack’s work comic strip. This may suggest that the is founded more in reality and his artwork is reflective of that. Sunday strip was more readily lifted Look at Sky’s flight suit from few weeks of the strip (top left). It was a slightly from the more fictional Space Busters, simplified capstan partial pressure suit, and seems to most likely be based of the and may account for the differences MC-3 model introduced in 1956 (top right). The ribbing along the arms and legs is in suit design. particularly telling. The headpiece is based on the K-1 assembly, a fiberglass helmet A final design change that often used in conjunction with various versions of the pressure suit in the 1950s. should be noted is one of practicaliThese are both notable departures from “classic” science fiction of the era, where ty. The series’ second multiple-perKirby’s Sun day suit the Buck Rogers unitard and fishbowl helmet were more commonplace. son space flight added the characters’ Shortly into the series, however, the space suit design changes. Were Vince surnames emblazoned across the tops of their Colletta inking the series, I might chalk this up to his tendency to simhelmets. This was clearly done to distinguish one character from plify Jack’s artwork for the sake of speed, but this was inked by Wally the next, as the space suits themselves had a unifying effect on Wood and he was clearly still putting a great deal of effort into the strip. how the characters looked, something not seen in Sky’s origiThe suit changes to a looser fitting design with less visual ornamentanal solo flight storyline. By now, Jack surely realized that his tion, and this does indeed seem drawings that were appearing in the funny pages were someto be reflective of further times subject to worse printing conditions than those in comic research on Jack’s part. The MCbooks. One can see, too, in Wally’s inking a decreasing 3 series was not, in fact, emphasis on textured details and a greater emphasis on designed for extended space well-placed spotted blacks. A simple and ready solution, of flights, but more for sub-orbital course, presents itself with the large helmet area where use. Right around the time the character names can be easily and logically written. This strip began coming out, astrowas carried throughout the series any time characters r l cove Will Trave — nauts were switching to a full could not be distinguished by their facial features. it u s e c Have Spa pressure suit system that could Sky Masters is an interesting case study in that its loose basis in reality handle the depths of outer space. can point to clear source material for Jack’s designs. Additionally interesting is that Indeed, full pressure suit designs were the extremely limited nature of the strip showcases Jack’s own design decisions only first requested by the U.S. Air more readily. We don’t have multiple inkers or, more dramatForce in 1955 and eventually resulted ically, large time intervals between renderings that have a in the MC-2 full pressure suit. (Yes, I substantial impact on the visual forms. Sky Masters provides rip st e realize this seems like a counter-intuus with a look at what Jack was working on consciously in th in r te om la Bulkier suit fr itive naming convention, and I have yet to find an his art, what you might call “Intentional Iconography.” ★ adequate explanation for it.) The design was refined and modified before the (See Sean’s website at www.FFPlaza.com) final versions went into production in 1958, one year before Sky Masters.

Adam M c Govern Know of some Kirby-inspired work that should be covered here? Send to: Adam McGovern PO Box 257 Mt. Tabor, NJ 07878

As A Genre A regular feature examining Kirby-inspired work, by Adam McGovern

HERO WORSHIP egular readers of this column will practically feel related to Tom Scioli, writer-artist of the Xeric Award-winning self-published smash 8-Opus. Scioli has dimension-warped into the majors in a major way this year, both as the illustrator of Image Comics’ tie-in to the hit Kirby-flavored videogame Freedom Force and, now, as co-creator (with writer Joe Casey) of the out-of-this-world-inmore-ways-than-one Gødland (also from Image). The computer-ish slashed “o” in the title tips you from word one on the comic’s visionary melding of the technological and the mythic, in a pageant of the special-effects fireworks sparked when science and the cosmos collide. If that’s a bit broad, so is the comic, which pours on its spectacle at too breakneck a pace for you to ask questions or lose interest. In the pre-pub first issue available at press time, we know that ex-astronaut Adam Archer has picked up a bad case of cosmic power on an interplanetary mission, and it’s now keeping him busy with various meddlesome extraterrestrials, enigmatic space-gods, bossy super-psychos and hair-trigger governments—like any proper god-saga, all will be revealed in good time. Meanwhile, with Mars standing in for old moon-shots and the ominous commies coming from China rather than the so-last-century Soviet Union, this series masterfully melds a breathless retro feel with a hip sense of contemporary adventure. Nothing since Kubrick & Clarke’s 2001 flick back in the real ’60s has captured the millennial delirium of that era like Gødland. Scioli does a breakthrough job that will define his career, while Casey, both immersed in and aware of Silver Age conventions in a savvy postmodern way, surpasses even the smartness of his formally innovative magazine-show super-series The Intimates. TJKC took Scioli out of orbit long enough to start making sense of it all….

(above) Fantasti-cars are for wimps, dawg—Scioli rockets to stardom with this spectacular cosmic splash. (right) 2005, a Scioli odyssey! (next page) Some signature space-psychedelia, Kirby/Scioli style. Gødland TM and © 2005 Joe Casey & Tom Scioli

THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: Gødland would seem to be something of a gamble for Image in general and Publisher Erik Larsen in particular—he championed just this kind of back-to-the-futurism at Marvel with Fantastic Four: The World’s Greatest Comics Magazine and the last Defenders reboot and seems to have encountered a lot of resistance, though I for one really enjoyed both books. What was his philosophy in instigating Gødland? TOM SCIOLI: It sure is a gamble. You really have no control over what’s going to catch on and what’s not. It took ten years for people to realize how wonderful The New Gods is. People seem to only be starting to realize what a great work OMAC is. I don’t know what the philosophy was other than, “Let’s put out some good comics.” Comics that aren’t ashamed to be comics. To my mind, what this has that’s different is that these are fresh new characters in a fresh new world. That’s something you just can’t accomplish using the Marvel characters. That was part of Marvel’s appeal in the ’60s. You

had those same old stodgy DC characters, then at Marvel you had these weird new characters like the Thing and Spider-Man— even more so, when characters like the Inhumans, the Surfer and Galactus showed up. They were new; they were different. With the passage of time, those characters have become institutions; I knew most of the Marvel characters from T-shirts and bad TV cartoons before I knew them as characters in a comic book. Their impact is lessened through repetition and saturation. The Fantastic Four started outstaying their welcome a good bit before Jack and Stan stopped working on them. Then Kirby left Marvel and came up with the New Gods, and the magic was back. Comics are a novelty item. You’ve got to keep the characters and worlds coming. It’s counterproductive if you’re trying to build a brand identity, but if you’re trying to tell intriguing mini adventure epics, it’s what you’ve got to do. TJKC: The ’60s comics Gødland evokes made famous the “Marvel method” of art-first, script-second (after a brainstorming session between artist and writer)—a counter-intuitive process, but one which really helped those comics’ spontaneity and seamless meld of art and story. I was intrigued to learn that you work Marvel-method even when you’re your own writer, and I wonder what process you follow with Joe. Also, how far ahead is Gødland plotted? It almost feels as if you guys are finding out what happens next as unexpectedly as we readers are, though the plot and pacing are so sure-footed as to make improvisation seem unlikely. SCIOLI: That act of constant discovery within the work is something that I love about Kirby’s comics, and I’m glad you feel there’s something similar happening with our book. It’s that feeling that Jack’s making this stuff up as it goes, but it works perfectly; or to put it another way, that the events in the book are actually unfolding as you read them, and that anything can happen. Gødland is plotted more like the “fabled” Marvel method than like the actual method Kirby and Lee seemed to use. In a lot of the comics, it looks to me like Kirby was going full-steam-ahead on the storytelling, and Lee was holding on trying to catch up. Joe’s less like the actual Stan, and more like the mythic Stan, the one that was depicted in Bullpen Bulletins and in Origins of Marvel Comics. After our initial creative period of throwing as many ideas into a pile as we could and whipping up the brew, Joe crafted detailed plots which I’ve followed as closely as possible, throwing in my own bits of flavor wherever I can. I’m always surprised with what he comes up with. TJKC: Gødland manages to be over the top without ever being played for laughs (even though you and Joe are obviously having great fun with the material). How do you both strike the balance, and what kind of limits did you set going in? SCIOLI: That’s tough. I play all my stuff as straight as possible. Just because your comic is funny doesn’t mean you have to throw everything else out the window. It’s got to work as sci-fi. It’s got to work as adventure. The humor just grows naturally out of that. When I first

saw Joe’s finished script, the tone was way different than what I had in my head as I was drawing the stuff. It’s laugh-out-loud funny. It’s not a goof, though; it’s powerful stuff, but the characters are funny. They’re funny the way your friends and family are funny, the stuff that comes out in conversation. TJKC: Your work is clearly Kirby-influenced but almost seems to tap his sensibility rather than just replicating his style. In your art do you feel you’re reviving a certain look or somehow picking up where it left off and trying to take it forward? SCIOLI: I’m taking it somewhere; I don’t know if you’d call it forward! I know I love Kirby’s approach. The comics I draw are the kind of comics I want as a reader. Kirby is a tough act to follow, and by so blatantly following his lead, you set yourself up to look bad by comparison, but it’s worth the risk. Kirby pointed the way. People who back off from Kirby’s lessons do so to

the detriment of comic art as its own art. A lot of the more polished-looking, illustrative art in comics seems to me like a step backwards to the pre-Marvel days. If you don’t do the Kirby thing, the art just lies there flat on the page. I’m not saying everybody needs to be as much of a Kirby-wannabe as me, but the guys whose stuff is dynamic, whose stuff really does move and shake on the page, will all tell you that Kirby is their inspiration. ★ (Adam McGøvern lives in Mt. Tabør, NJ, and is always øn the løøkøut før møre Kirby-inspired cømics. He’s gøtta have sømething tø write abøut, yøu knøw? 17

Gallery 1

Suspenseful Inking!

A Joe Sinnott inks-to-Kirby pencils comparison of newly-discovered stats from Tales of Suspense #93. What more need be said? Enjoy!

Talking To girl -- iT’s blasT Time -- cap is caughT off guard -paralyzer gun hiTs cap -girl nails ambusher buT Too laTe To help cap

face on screen draws gal To iT -- she is drawn To iT -againsT her will

Accolades

And Now... The Kirby (Editor’s Note: At last year’s Comicon International: San Diego, I—and several hundred other people—were delighted to attend the annual Kirby Tribute Panel, only to find Lisa Kirby has surreptitiously put together a Jack Kirby Award to be handed out to people who, as the plaques stated, were being honored for “dedication to the Kirby legacy.” To say I was humbled to have Jack’s daughter give me an award is an understatement. But as I sat in the audience hearing stories of the incredible dedication numerous people had to keeping Jack in the public consciousness, it occurred to me that we had a theme issue on our hands! So without further ado, here’s a transcript of the ceremony. The rest of this issue is devoted to spotlighting Kirby Award recipients, especially the ones who haven’t received feature interviews in past issues; more will be featured in future issues. Some you’ve heard of, some you haven’t, but rest assured all of them are worthy of this recognition, as you’ll soon learn.)

(above) Lisa Kirby at the 2004 Comicon International: San Diego. (next page, top right) Mike Royer’s sentiments echo our interviewee’s in this ’92 San Diego Con program tribute to the King. (next page, top left) Scott Fresina presenting the Kirby Awards. (next page, bottom) Dr. Doom was the coolest villain in comicdom in the ’60s, warranting a one-shot story in Marvel Super-Heroes as well as appearances in The Avengers, Daredevil, SpiderMan, and more. Here’s Kirby’s killer poster of the Lord of Latveria from 1969.

LISA KIRBY: I am Jack’s youngest daughter, and I am really nervous, so bear with me. I just want to thank all of you for attending this special tribute, and our distinguished panel, thank you very much. You’re all family, and as you know, this marks the tenth anniversary of my father’s passing, and even though the years have passed, there’s not a day that goes by that I don’t think of both of my parents. This year I would like to honor their memory through an awards presentation. This will be a little bit different. My family and I would like to thank a few people who have helped us over the years. They’ve gone beyond the call of duty in their support and dedication to my family. We just appreciated all that, and it’s kept my father’s legacy alive, and in particular, his contribution to the comics industry. I know he would be very pleased and very humbled that we still honor him today. He must be smiling down at all of us right now, smokin’ a cigar [some laughter]—that’s what he loved to do—and he’s wishing he could be here. He’d be cracking his corny jokes and telling us all his crazy stories. Again, I appreciate everybody for being here. And I would like to introduce Scott Fresina, aka Scott Free; and that’s his name! He’s just an all-around nice guy and a family friend, and he’s going to present these awards for me today, because he’s better at public speaking. [laughter and applause]

SCOTT FRESINA: Thanks. When Lisa asked me to present this award to these great folks here, these keepers of the flame, there was no way I could say no to this. In fact, it’s funny, years ago, back in the 1980s, I was a professional musician. People used to mess up my last name, being Fresina. All the time I used to get “Frazetta,” Orion TM & ©2005 DC Comics. Dr. Doom TM “Frazutta.” I didn’t like “Frazetta” too much. They used to mess it & ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc. up and misspell it, put a “z” in there. So I just shortened it to Scott Free. I was a great comic book fan, and of course a Jack fan in particular. Jack had a lot of people come out to that house, and he had a lot of extended family, so he used to mix up the names sometimes. Sometimes he’d call me [Kirby voice:] “Steve. Say, Steve how ya doin’?” Sometimes it was “Scott,” sometimes it was “Steve,” sometimes it was “Stan.” Well, it wasn’t “Stan” too often. [laughter] Actually, I told him, “No, no, Jack. Remember, I shortened it from ‘Fresina’ to ‘Free.’ ‘Scott Free.’” [Kirby voice:] “Oh, Scott Free! That’s a good name for a guy like you!” [laughter] And he never forgot my name after that. Anyway, these awards we’re presenting are for the people that have kept the spirit of Jack Kirby alive. A lot of us here have had the opportunity to meet him at conventions like this one, and go up to the house. I’m forever grateful to Mike SCOTT FRESINA [Thibodeaux} for bringing me up there in ’81. We started going up there a lot, which was fantastic. These people have 26

kept his work, his name in print, and with the Internet, people all over the world can see Jack’s stuff and experience it. I’m going to take it right from the top here and mention our first recipient of the Jack Kirby Award, for dedication to the Jack Kirby legacy. Since the early Seventies, of course, he assisted Jack and the family. Still does it today. I don’t know if this is the time to mention that Marvelmania still owes me twelve bucks. [laughter] Mark Evanier, everybody! [applause] Talking about mispronouncing names, back when I used to read it, I thought I was a smart kid, I thought, “He must be ‘ee-von-YAY.’” [scattered laughter] Another individual who worked for Jack closely, is a close family friend, a supporter of the Kirby family, he’s getting an award today. It’s Steve Sherman. Steve? [applause] Along with his brother Steve, he’s been a longtime friend, and his claim to fame is he introduced Jack and the family to Paul and Linda McCartney at a Wings concert: Gary Sherman. [applause] The author of the book The Art of Jack Kirby is also a close family friend—everybody that knows Jack becomes a close family friend; it’s a given, almost—and a great supporter, Ray Wyman. [applause] Accepting the award for Ray tonight will be Mark Evanier once again. [scattered laughter] Somebody whose book I always look forward to, and all of us, as Jack fans, support, too—a thoroughly top-notch publication, well done, great stuff in there—John Morrow, editor and publisher of The Jack Kirby Collector. [applause] The next one goes to the publisher and owner of Dark Horse Comics. He’s been a great supporter over the years of Jack and Roz. He’s been there for the Kirby family on a personal and professional level. Do we have Mike Richardson in the room? Mike Richardson of Dark Horse. [applause, then laughter] On behalf of... MARK EVANIER: Give me another one. SCOTT FRESINA: You want another one? Oh, that one. Okay. A personal family friend was instrumental in helping Roz obtain a pension in her later years. He’s a great friend of the Kirby family here. This goes to Mark Miller, ladies and gentlemen. [applause] Mmmm, I think I know this next guy over here. He’s a great Kirby fan, a longtime family friend of the Kirbys, and he even named his child Kirby. Scott Shaw gets this next one. [applause] Another individual who’s come through with his inking talent to help Jack with many tight deadlines, give it up for Marty Lasick. [applause] Always there with a kind word and a helping hand, I’ve known this guy for years, too: Dave Schwartz. [applause] I want to say this personally; you talk about family, and I owe him a great debt also, because in ’81 he took me up to meet Jack, and it was the first of many, many, many meetings—to the point where Roz would say, “Okay, boys, come on!” [claps hands] “Time to go home!” We had to remember that we were in our thirties, not thirteen. We were having that much fun. A true family friend of the Kirby family for the past thirty years, worked closely with Jack as his inker, has been the family’s art agent, who was always there for Jack and Roz and whatever they might need. Give it up for Mike Thibodeaux. [applause] One of Jack’s favorite inkers, faithfully preserving Jack’s pencils, crisp Kirby art, always willing to help out with the Kirby estate: Mike Royer. [applause] And one of Jack’s famous rock and roll fans and a longtime supporter of the Kirby family, a good friend. I don’t think he’s here today, but Mark, you think you can take one more? Glenn Danzig. [applause] Thanks to everybody who received awards, and thanks to the Kirby family. [applause] ★

Awards!

Scott Free Meets The King

(Interviewer’s Note: I cleaned up, moneywise, as an artist-for-hire in my junior high school years in the early ’70s. Many of my fellow classmates, mostly guys, would slide me a nickel or two or three for a quick sketch of their favorite TV or movie stars, super-heroes, or dreamgirl in various states of undress. One of my sketchbooks got out of my binder one afternoon on a bus ride home and an older comics enthusiast (whom I would meet later) checked it out and nodded approvingly of my artwork, Kirby swipes and all. Scott Fresina was a big comics fan as well as a knowledgeable afficionado of horror and science-fiction films. He returned my book to me one afternoon at school and asked if I knew these other guys in various grades (people with which he was already familiar) who were into Kirby, Marvel and DC Comics, movie monsters, and other pop culture items that I’d doodled about in my sketchbook. I didn’t know them but I wanted to meet ’em—and a covert club was born. (Because as you all know, collecting comics was not conducive to meeting and dating girls). Years later, Scott would travel to the southern part of our state to Los Angeles, where he’d pursue a career in rock music. In the early ’80s, he performed under the name “Scott Free” and was lucky enough to meet and befriend Jack Kirby and his family. And that’s the short version of how Scott Free met his favorite comics artist (but not his creator!)—Jack Kirby. He’ll tell the whole story now in detail. This interview was conducted for this magazine on Feb. 12, 2005.) THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: When did you first meet Jack? SCOTT FRESINA: I can say my first contact with Jack was in ’72. It was the BayCon that they used to have in the (San Francisco-Oakland) Bay Area. I’m thinking Oakland was the host at the time. I met a lot of guys there but Jack was the

one who really stuck out. It’s interesting because at the time, they hawked the “hot artists” there and everybody was making a big deal about Neal Adams. There was a huge crowd around him and I got in line to get Neal’s autograph. He seemed to be a little fatigued at the way fans were ganging up on him and he was sitting Indian-style on the floor signing books. Later, I was standing around looking for other artists and the buzz came around, “Hey, there’s Jack Kirby!” and I ran down there—and my heart quickened! Kirby was walking in a big crowd and he even looked like I imagined him to look! He looked like some of the characters he drew! [laughs] I remember a lot of the people just crowded around him and shoved their books in his face but he was exceptionally gracious about the whole thing—like, he was really enjoying himself while he was connecting to this mob of kids. Frank Brunner, Don McGregor, Jim Starlin, and some others were there, too, but Kirby’s behavior really struck me. He made eye contact with everyone, answered all the questions thrown his way, shook all the hands he could, and so on. There was something different about the way he carried himself. A lot of the fans were tongue-tied, but I was one of the older guys in the group so I had to say something! I made some compliment about his artwork or something, and to my surprise, he kinda challenged me. He answered, “Well, what did you get out of it?” [laughs] His voice had that cross between a Jimmy Cagney and a Humphrey Bogart. He definitely had the look and the sound of old New York to me, and it really fit his style and it made me feel immediately comfortable—maybe because I started out in New York. You’re standing there looking at him and you realize that this guy’s taken us to Asgard, back to the Negative Zone, and all parts in-between! He was absolutely my

Kirby family friend Scott Fresina interviewed by Jerry Boyd 27

favorite artist and, let’s face it, he illustrated the majority of Marvel’s books and I was a huge Marvel fan at that time. TJKC: Which takes me to my next question: Do you remember your first Kirby book? SCOTT: Very clearly. It was Fantastic Four Annual #2. A couple of things struck me about that book right off the bat. First, Jack’s artwork was very strong, very powerful, and the design of the characters were very different. A guy who was a monster as a member of the heroes was really something. I thought Dr. Doom was the coolest villain I’d ever seen. And the machinery! [laughs] The machinery was just part of the background but it looked... useable! I used to give out my comics when I was younger to my friends—I lost them, no big deal— but when I started collecting Marvels I had the fire

in my belly! I stopped giving away books and began keeping them and there was no more drifting in and out of comics. I’d seen lots of other artists I liked. I saw the Murphy Anderson Hawkman, I saw (Gil) Kane’s stuff, Infantino, etc. I found it all appealing. But, when I went over to Jack’s and the House of Ideas, it was like all my life I’d been looking at nice, shiny Schwinn bicycles, and then somebody said, “Hey, let’s go over to the Harley-Davidson shop!” [laughter] Suddenly I’m looking at Fat Boys and Sportsters and things that had so much weight and yet elegance to it! I never saw anything like that... and it changed [the medium] for me forever. I felt the same way when I heard Jimi Hendrix play guitar. I shouted, “How is this done?!” I’d heard beach/surf guitar plunkin’, and then this guy comes along who sounds like he’s throttling a dragon [laughs] or operating a pneumatic buzzsaw. And Jack was that way for me. So, getting back to the BayCon, Jack asked me, “Well, what did you get out of it?” I really didn’t know what to say, but I said, “Well, I didn’t get bulging biceps like your characters.” And Jack said, “Well no, neither did I. But maybe I made life a little more interesting for you.” And I answered, “Yeah, you did.” My heart was pounding after that and I really thought, “Wow, it’s all downhill from here!” I’d already seen all the Frazetta artwork and a lot of other stuff, but meeting Jack Kirby and actually having an exchange with the man, I never forgot. I wouldn’t meet him again until 1982—or ’81; Mike Thibodeaux can pinpoint that better than me. TJKC: I’m aware that you’re a big fan of monster films and the like, so did you ever go back before the FF and get Jack’s monster books? SCOTT: No, not until the ’70s. I didn’t know that material existed until they reprinted ’em in the ’70s. Wait, some were in... TJKC: Fantasy Masterpieces. SCOTT: Yeah, that’s right. But it was really in the early ’70s with Where Monsters Dwell.

TJKC: “Where Creatures Guzzle.” [laughs] SCOTT: Yeah! “Where Demons Stumble”! [laughter] It was there where I became aware of the monster comics as a whole different genre that Kirby did. I liked Ditko’s work a lot and Don Heck’s, too, but Kirby’s creatures were something else. A lot of those monsters made it into the regular books, especially Thor, with the demons and trolls and such. I never saw so many six-fingered, scary-looking nasties that still wore Jansen swimsuits! [laughter] His style was so inimitable that I always knew whose work I was looking at. TJKC: You were developing the “collector’s eye.” SCOTT: I guess so. In the early ’80s, I’d moved to LA and was playing in a heavy metal band, The Brooklyn Brats. Sometime before that, I had shortened my name to Scott Free. You remember Johnny Unitas? They called him Johnny U. Well, the Scott Free thing worked out because it dovetailed from my being such a Kirby fan... so Scott Fresina became, on stage, Scott Free. It’s really funny because other people I’d meet through music would hear my name along with writers from Band Magazine or L.A. Weekly and they would ask me, “Are you a comic book fan?” [laughs] because they knew about it. It became kind of a litmus test because if you said “Clark Kent,” everyone would respond to it, but if you said, “Scott Free,” you would have to be in the mix to know about it. You’d have to be... in the club. So, Mike Thibodeaux, who was inking for Kirby at the time, stopped into the comics store

where I had my day job. My boss, the late, great Bill Liebowitz, knowing I was a big Kirby fanatic, introduced me to Mike. People who know me know I’m a huge Kirby fan, a huge Hendrix fan, a big Boris Karloff fan, so Bill introduced us and I had to ask Mike about Jack. We turned out to be kindred souls. We talked over an hour the first time we met, and after a number of great comics conversations over a period of time, he finally asked me, “Would you like to go up to Jack’s house? He lives just over in Thousand Oaks.” And to me, that was like he was giving me a hall pass to roam around Asgard! [laughs] I was older then, but my heart was pounding all over again! I felt like I was visiting a dear old uncle or grandfather, though. The second time I went over, he forgot my name and called me Steve. I said, “No, you gave me my name, remember? It’s Scott Free.” “Oh,” he said. “That’s a good name for a guy like you!” I told him I was into music and he said one of his daughters was trying to do that. One day, he gave me the grand tour. He took me by the elbow and I couldn’t believe it! Some of the art pages were rejected covers, some were pages from stories, some were paintings, some were animation designs, and one—a RubySpears design of a space knight that wasn’t approved—was incredible!! Jack took it back home after it was rejected and added the Silver Surfer in the foreground looking back over his shoulder at the guy. I owned that piece for a while. TJKC: Go on. What else do you remember? [laughs] SCOTT: He took me down this long hallway and explained what each picture meant. He had a story every time about every piece. He had one cover with an AIM agent or Hydra agent with a flying pack zooming out towards the reader.... TJKC: That’s the cover of Strange Tales #142 with Mentallo, a villain.

SCOTT: Right. Since we’re talking about Nick Fury, Jack had not seen movies like Back to the Future. I mentioned that movie to Jack because at the end of the first film, the DeLorean’s wheels invert and become hover-fans like in the SHIELD origin (see ST #135). He hadn’t seen it but he wasn’t surprised. I think I said something about that and Star Wars’ similarities to Roz and she just shrugged and said, “Yeah, it’s Jack’s... but still no check in the mail!” [laughs] Oh yeah, he had an unpublished or a rejected Fantastic Four cover with Ben in a pit and Dr. Doom above him, looking down. [see TJKC #30] In the living room, he had two framed giant pencil pieces and they were elegant! One had an old man’s face on it with lines flowing outward, I think... it looked like Odin to me. So I asked Jack, “Is that Odin?” He answered, “No, that’s the face of God.” The other one was his impression of God turning his back on the world. He’d been through some tough times in his life, so he’d come to believe in self-reliance, y’know—“Don’t expect God to do everything for you.” TJKC: You mentioned Scott Free, so obviously you’re a fan of the Fourth World, the god war. In your talks with Jack, did he ever elaborate on things he’d done in the Fourth World series, or better yet, did he tell you how he planned to end it? SCOTT: I did ask him about that and this goes back to about a year before DC decided to reprint the New Gods and then have Jack do The Hunger Dogs—he’d forgotten! He couldn’t quite remember what he’d had in mind but he was not at all happy with the cancellation of the Fourth World stuff. I must say that of all the times I spent there, I never lost sight that I was in the presence of a significant artist. I knew that the time was special. And I knew that this was a blessing being there. I knew that this was something that not everybody got to experience. TJKC: You’re telling me. [laughs] Did you usually go up by yourself or with Mike Thibodeaux? SCOTT: I usually went with Mike because then if I went with Mike, it’d be guaranteed that you’d be there at least a couple of hours. Mike had a certain amount of work he’d have to do with Jack or Roz. A lot of times, Roz handled the business. One thing that Mike did, besides inking Jack’s Pacific Comics stuff, was handling the requests for the many commissions that Jack got. People would send in money and say, “Can I have...?” And Jack would draw ’em huge, poster-size, according to requests for Galactus and the Silver Surfer, the Black Panther with the Inhumans, or Thor, or whatever. I remember one time he’d started drawing one of those pieces. It had something like the Black Panther, Thor, and somehow he’d worked Captain Victory in there—something like that. I looked at the request letter and read what the guy wanted and I said, “Gee Jack, this guy said he wanted the Black Panther, the Fantastic Four, and Thor.” And he’d throw up his hands and look it over, look back at me, and say, “Aww... well, I dunno, geez... I guess I forgot!” But no one ever complained [laughs] or sent it back or said, “I want my money back!” or “Erase so-and-so and put in this other guy!” or anything like that. Jack was basically just following his muse. TJKC: Did he like doing commissions? SCOTT: Oh yeah, he liked doing it for the fans and he never took it for granted. He knew they

(above) Our interviewee, Scott Fresina, is depicted here in a drawing done by his good friend and collector/designer, Mel Whitlow. (left) The Wrecker takes on the Thunder God in this memorable Kirby cover from 1968. Characters TM & ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.

(previous page, top right) In this page from Journey into Mystery #75, Kirby’s masterful use of panel breakdown makes use of film camera directions (pan right and tilt up) to reveal and intensify the suspenseful meeting of Earthmen and Lo-Karr, Bringer of Doom! Characters TM & ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.

(previous page, top left) Captivating splashes like this one from FF #17 got the Marvel Age in high gear, and you’ve just gotta love Bashful Benjamin reading an “Ant-Man” comic story in the last panel. Characters TM & ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.

were sending in their hard-earned cash and just saying, “I’d like to have some of your stuff on my wall!” They were never too specific and they’d request the characters they wanted drawn. And he’d draw... most of ’em! [laughs] [Interviewer’s note: This anecdote may explain the cover of TJKC #27, the illo on page 23 of #41, and the like.] And it’s true that he’d start from one corner to another as if the piece was on a light table and he was merely tracing it. It’d be all there in the finished product, the drop shadows and modulation—but all done from one side of the paper to the other side and in perfect proportion. The guy was amazing. TJKC: By the mid-to-late ’80s, he was slowly phasing himself out of the comics industry. Do you think he was happy with the transition? SCOTT: Yeah, he was thinking more and more about his concepts becoming television shows and movies. Captain Victory, he felt, would have been a great scifi movie like Star Wars. It’s ironic now, because the FF [movie] is going to be out soon, and the Hulk, Spider-Man, and the X-Men films—all characters he either created or nurtured somewhat in their opening phases—and well... it would’ve been nice if he’d lived to see to see them come to fruition. We kept going up. We loved Kirby and after his hands didn’t allow him to draw anymore, nothing changed. We were up there for Passover one time, and a guy with my background—I thought Passover was a game show; a Mark Goodson/Bill Todman production! [laughs] And Jack told me all about it. He explained this Jewish holiday in this Kirby fashion—the guy was a great storyteller! He put up his hands with his fingers splayed almost in that style that Odin and Thor would say something and you could see the montage behind them. It was great! I said, “Wow! I can even picture how you’d draw this!” TJKC: And he talked about Passover and explained it to you? SCOTT: He talked about Passover and the plight of the Jews. He gave us some matzoh crackers and it was just terrific, y’know. Jack was a real down-home sort of guy. If we showed up one afternoon and they had leftover Chinese food from last night, he’d say, “You want some?” He never put on airs. The worse thing I can say about Jack is that he spoiled me for any other childhood celebrity I would ever meet after that. 30

They all struck me as being less gracious than Jack, more pompous than Jack, and more filled with their own self-importance than Jack did. TJKC: You can’t help but like a person who was so tremendously talented at what he did, yet so casual about it, even humble, and able to keep it all in perspective. SCOTT: Exactly. Don’t get me wrong. Jack was always excited about his latest project, even up to the end. He was always interested in his work, but I never got the impression that he thought this was “high art” or anything. He always passed it off as,

and I can hear him saying this, “Well, it’s entertainment. It’s just entertainment.” And I’m talking about how the FF and all his books were important to me when I was young and how they still resonate with me. And he’d continue, “Good, but it’s just entertainment.” And I’d say, “But Jack, it was more than entertainment. There were little parables about courage, about sticking up for somebody, helping out the little guy, and more!” He’d stop, reflect quickly, grin, and say, “Okay, alright. So... it was a little more than entertainment.” ★

Accolades

The Sherman Bros. Speak! (Editor’s Note: I first met Steve Sherman by e-mail for his interview in TJKC #6. I was a bit surprised that so relatively little information came out of an exchange with Jack’s former assistant, but once I met him in person—with younger brother Gary at the San Diego Comicon—I realized that e-mail was not the way to interview Steve. Both natives of Santa Monica, California—Steve born in 1949, Gary in 1955—they regaled me with wonderful tales about Jack and Roz that I just had to get into print one day. So it was long past due for me to sit down with the Sherman brothers, in person, and do a proper interview, which we arranged on a gorgeous Sunday morning on the back deck of the San Diego Convention Center, overlooking the bay—that is, until a troupe of knights in armor showed up, whacking each other about with real swords and shields, creating such a ruckus with their medieval reenactment that we had to go back into the convention hall to complete our chat. This interview was conducted on June 25, 2004, copyedited by Steve and Gary, and transcribed by Steven Tice.) THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR: To give the readers a little perspective on the questions I’m about to ask you, tell me what you guys do now. STEVE SHERMAN: I have a company called Puppet Studio, and we design, build, and perform puppets in Los Angeles, for TV, film, and commercials. And I perform puppets, like the D.C. Follies. I was the puppeteer on Mighty Joe Young and two Men in Blacks. And I guess some people might remember Capt. O.G. Readmore from Saturday morning on ABC, that puppet. GARY SHERMAN: I work in the television business. I started out as a dolly grip on multi-camera shows like Perfect Strangers, Step by Step, and the Hogan Family. Then I moved up to camera coordinator, who helps the director block the camera shots, which a lot of Kirby stuff comes in handy there. As a coordinator, the last thing I did was Dharma and Greg. That was the longest. I’ve filled in. I’ve done shows that lasted six episodes, like Something So Right, and Partners with John Cryer, and some other things. TJKC: What comics did you grow up reading? STEVE: I didn’t read comics until I was about—whenever your dad takes you to your first haircut at a barbershop? That’s where I first saw comic books, I think, at a barbershop. GARY: Steven read a bunch of the ECs and stuff first, and then our father got a job for six months and we moved to Canada in 1960. Those got lost when we came back late in ’61. And then, when Steven started collecting in, like, ’62, I was six or seven, whenever I started to read. He had comics all over the place, and I just tore them apart and read every one of them. The first comic I read was a Jack Kirby comic book. It was an early FF. It had to have been. And I thought the guys that drew it were my brother’s age or a little bit older—except you saw these two guys in a coat and a shirt with the backs of their heads, going, “Hey Stan.” “Hey, Jack.” I had an idea what was going on, but I still thought, “These guys can’t be more than a couple of years older than Steven, because they’re drawing funnybooks, comics.” TJKC: Steve, your first exposure to Kirby’s work was—? STEVE: I think it was The Fly. TJKC: And were you aware that was Kirby, or did you even have any idea that somebody actually drew these things? STEVE: No, I knew people drew them because I had always been interested in the behindthe-scenes stuff even as a little kid, so I always wondered, “How do they do that?” I’d go to the library, check the books

(left) A Dr. Doom illo for Marvelmania. Pencils & inks by Kirby.

out, and see, “Oh, cartooning.” So I knew guys drew them. But I was buying the Wayne Boring Supermans and the funny animal stuff, and The Fly came out, and it was different. It had that Jack Kirby and [Joe] Simon look. I hadn’t seen Challengers of the Unknown or the mystery stuff. I kind of missed that. So this was the first Kirby one that I saw, with the double-page spread. Then Double Life of Private Strong came out at the same time, and I would just look at those two over and over again, going, “Whoa!” A different style. It just looked different from the Superman comics, the DC Comics—you’d get Double Life of Private Strong, where things were jumping and running across the page. The guy just put everything down perfectly. I don’t know why, but I think a lot of kids, when they first start reading comics, are attracted to Jack because of the roughness of it, and the square fingers, and the hands coming out at you. Then, as you get older, you just stick with it, and it’s that Kirby look. You never get the image out of your mind that that’s what the characters are supposed to look like. TJKC: When did you first actually meet Kirby? STEVE: The first time I saw him was when we went out to Orange County. They had just been out a couple of weeks, so there was hardly any furniture in the place. It was a townhouse down in Orange County, and it was me, Mark Evanier, and... I can’t remember. Maybe it was Bruce Simon. I can’t remember who it was, but there were four or five of us who went down there. Mark and I were already working at Marvelmania. TJKC: And how did you arrange this meeting? Just one of you guys called him out of the blue? STEVE: Mark called him up. Mark had already spoken to Jack, I think, a couple of times on the telephone. Because he had started at Marvelmania before any of us did, he’d gone to the office when he first heard about it. He had talked to Jack and said, “Can we come down and see you?” It had something to do with he wanted to bring him something, I’m not sure. So I drove down in my old Opal Cadet station wagon— GARY: —that ran Marvelmania. Without that, you wouldn’t have gotten the Marvelmania stuff you got in the mail. TJKC: How old were you when you were driving down there? STEVE: 18-and-a-half, 19. GARY: I was working at Marvelmania on the weekends while going to junior high school, but these guys were going down to Kirby’s. I didn’t go out until much later.

TJKC: Gary, you were actually working for Marvelmania, too? GARY: Right, as a kid. We were rolling posters, and they had poster contests. The guy who ran it would say, “Okay, I’ll give three bucks to the guy who can roll the most posters!” And in the old days, they didn’t have those plastic caps that go in the tubes; you had to run glue around a cap and shove it on. So some poor kid in North Dakota opens up his poster thing— STEVE: —and the glue sticks to it! [laughter] GARY: Or running down the inside, and his decal was stuck to the inside of the tube. [laughter] TJKC: Who was the guy that ran Marvelmania? STEVE: “Uncle” Don Wallace. Uncle Don, the kiddie’s con. GARY: He’s one of those guys that will tell you he had a military career, but God knows if he did. He did everything. He said he

was Special Forces in Korea. Of course, he was probably too young for that. And he ran another business, a badge silk-screening business for markets; little plastic badges that say, “Hi, Welcome to Von’s.” Then you’d punch out names on those little plastic stickers— STEVE: Dymo labelers. GARY: —and put your name on it. One Christmas when he was running out of money for Marvelmania, he grabbed a bunch of us, me included, and told us to take one of those Dymo clickers out with some badges that we just printed that said “Merry Christmas,” and put them on all the little kids, and then charge the mothers a buck for it. You know, “Hello, little girl. What’s your name?” [little girl voice:] “Becky.” “B” (click) “E” (click) “C” (click) “K” (click) “Y” (click), apply to badge, “That’ll be a buck, Miss. Merry Christmas!” [laughter] TJKC: He’d use young kids to do his—? GARY: Oh, yeah. I was in junior high school. And the rest of the guys were in high school. The L.A. Comic Book Club had a higher age bracket than other comic book clubs. I was the youngest one, basically. A lot of people came and went, but it was basically these 16- to 20-year-olds there. So there were serious comic fans.

TJKC: Do you remember anything about that first meeting with Jack? STEVE: I remember when we pulled up, it was just this kind of non-descript Orange County brand new townhouse. Roz opened the door and Lisa was there, Lisa must have been about twelve. And Jack’s upstairs, so we went up the stairs, and there was this little 10' x 15' room with the townhome windows. TJKC: This was what year? STEVE: 1968, ’69? TJKC: So you guys were really entrenched in the whole Stan and Jack/Marvel Comics thing? That must have been pretty cool. STEVE: Oh, yeah, yeah. We had all the Marvel comics; “Stan and Jack,” “Stan and Jack.” GARY: Oh, when I heard about it, I crapped my pants. [laughter] I had my MMMS Badge! We were going to see “Jack Kirby,” who I thought must have been only 28, 29 years old. TJKC: Was it a surprise to you that he was as old as he was? Because he was, what, 45 then, I guess? STEVE: No, he was about 51, 52. Because I’m a little older than the age he was when I first met him. [laughs] No, I knew he was older because by then I had read enough history of comics to know he’d been around in the ’40s. GARY: These guys knew the ’40s comics; I still hadn’t really looked that far. I was deep into the Marvel psyche, because that was Jack’s best period, with the Silver Surfer, Galactus, all that stuff. I didn’t know anything about his past until later. TJKC: So when you got there that first day, was he drawing something? STEVE: Yeah, he was. We went upstairs and there he was in this room, 10' x 15', nothing in it but his drawing board and his straight-back wooden chair, the taboret busted up, with ink stains on it, and a couple of crappy pencils. He was drawing a Thor page and smoking a cigar. He said, “All right, come on in, guys.” He was just like you’d known him for a hundred years. “Yeah, come on in.” He had a couple of comics there for reference from a couple issues before of Thor. He was just, “Yeah, so...” and just asking us, “Oh, good to see you, nice to see you. Oh, Marvelmania, yeah.” That kind of stuff. TJKC: He actually worked on the page while he was talking to you? STEVE: Yeah. He kind of stopped, he had been working on it, he was gonna stop, and we were like, “Wow, look at this!” It was the first time I’d seen Kirby pencils in person. TJKC: Especially on Thor, I imagine you’d seen Vinnie Colletta inks, and then seeing this stuff.... STEVE: Yes! And it was, like, the big pages, I think, back then, I’m not sure. Maybe they just looked big. It’s just like, “Ahhh.” GARY: I remember, when I’d watch him work, especially when we’d come in and his pages were almost done, he had this habit of stopping and talking to whoever was there. Maybe fooling with his pipe or his cigar, and then turning back to the page and adding something. But just so randomly, one stroke and then he’d talk to other people again. That was always amazing. TJKC: So when he was drawing the stuff while you were there, he was focused on you, though? Like he had two brains; one was thinking about Thor, while the other was—? STEVE: Yeah! I think he was all compartmentalized, because in this compartment he had all the stories going, and in another compartment he could focus on something else. But if somebody was there, he really wouldn’t draw. I can’t remember too many times when I actually saw him draw, unless it was to describe something, but to actually draw a comic book page? He usually did that when nobody was around. He really didn’t like to sit there. He’d rather talk to you than sit down and draw.

GARY: Oh, yeah, especially if he was almost done. One of the rare times I saw a breakdown page—I don’t know if he was just trying to write the story— he just had a couple of these line figures. You could see the arms and the head. It was a real breakdown, and when he was at that point, he would put everything down at the same time. But when he was almost done with the page and having a problem, he’d stare at that thing for a while. Three hours of just deep concentration. To see somebody come in and to talk to them, I’m sure that was put away, and concentration was on that. “Hello, how are you?” [laughs] I think that every conversation always used to stimulate him with something. He was always thinking of something new. TJKC: Did Roz fix you guys lunch? STEVE: I don’t remember if she fixed us lunch, or if she went out and we got take-out or something, but yeah, we got lunch. I remember it was a great time. They were really super-nice. TJKC: Was Neal at home then? STEVE: No, no. Neal was in Syracuse, still going to college.

(previous page, top) 1970 flyer for the LA Comic Book Club. (previous page, bottom) The Marvelmania shipping room, where kids like Gary Sherman would fold, spindle, and mutilate Marvelmania merchandise. (above) Typical wall of the Marvelmania offices. (below) One of the signs Neal Kirby used when he served as his father’s art agent.

TJKC: I remember, as a kid, seeing an ad that said, “Neal Kirby: Art Agent.” STEVE: Oh, that was way later, after Jack left DC. TJKC: So you guys have your visit with Jack. Gary, when did you get to meet him? GARY: I wasn’t there until after Jack took Steve and Mark and said, “I want you guys to come with me; I’m leaving for DC.” And I think I started to bother Steve to go with him right about the second time he went. Steven would say, “Hey, this is my job. You’re not—.” I said, “Just once, let me meet Jack Kirby.” STEVE: Did you first see him at a convention? GARY: No, I saw him outside the Brown Derby for some—. STEVE: Oh, for the Marvelmania thing. GARY: Yeah. You had set it up for Marvelmania. I still was only working in the poster rolling room during the weekends, only a couple of hours. So this happened at night. STEVE: At the Brown Derby in Hollywood. GARY: Right. You weren’t even going to it, right? I think you were just checking up on it? STEVE: No, I was there, because I got pictures. Our brother-in-law Gary Lowndes was there as Captain America. He was a construction carpenter in great shape, and he fit the costume perfectly. TJKC: This was a big publicity stunt for Marvelmania? STEVE: It was for the Toys for Tots campaign that Don had managed to get the Marine Corps involved in. This was his connection as a Marine. That’s when Jack did the poster of the Marine and Captain America. He got Jack involved, and all the Marvel characters, as a

part of Toys for Tots, which ruffled a lot of feathers. Up until then, there was this L.A. kiddie show host named Hobo Kelly who was the one who hosted that every year. They elbowed her aside so they could do this. TJKC: Jack did a lot of art for Marvelmania properties. Was that at Stan’s request, Marvel’s request, or this Don Wallace guy? STEVE: Don Wallace. It so happened that when Jack moved out here to the West Coast, Marvelmania got started. So Don got in touch with Jack and said, “Oh, as long as Jack Kirby’s here, will you do the posters? Will you do this?” Jack was like, “Sure.” So whatever art needed to be done— TJKC: And he got paid by Don for these? STEVE: No. He got the promise of pay, but he didn’t get paid. Some he might have, but I don’t know if he got— TJKC: It all had to be paid by Don Wallace, not by Marvel? STEVE: Yeah. Marvel Comics had nothing to do with any Marvelmania money stuff at all, it was all Don Wallace. But Jack got the art back. TJKC: Mark Evanier said that he knew the end of Marvelmania was coming, so you guys went in and kind of cleared stuff out to give it back to Jack so he could get something out of it.

STEVE: No, I don’t think so. TJKC: He just wanted to keep the company looking consistent. STEVE: Yeah. I think he just was looking at the stuff and he was like, “Well, wait a minute, this is...” Jack did the cover of the catalogs, I think. TJKC: There’s pieces I’ve seen for sale at auction; Marvelmania stuff still in pencil that never got produced. STEVE: That was part of Jack, too, figuring, “Well, if it’s all my artwork, it’s part of Marvelmania, and it’s my stamp, too.” And he was here, easier to deal with. TJKC: So Jack and Neal came down and cleared out all the art they could find? GARY: What was left. It was getting kind of hairy down there to begin with, because the printing and decal-making and all that color printing was so much more expensive in ’69. Five thousand decals was about...?

STEVE: Well, Jack and Neal drove up from—I think he was still in Orange County. Mark called him up and said, “You know, this thing is not going to last, Jack. You’re probably not going to get your money out of this guy, so come up here and get your original posters.” They were on the wall, and they were full-sized, black-and-white, inked posters. GARY: All these posters were done by Jack, and then they had other artists redo them. I don’t know why the Marvel guys wanted in on it, but all of a sudden [Herb] Trimpe, [John] Romita— STEVE: Well, Stan was getting a little jumpy over the fact that it was all Jack Kirby. Marvelmania was Jack Kirby-centric, and so he said something. I don’t know if he said it to Chip [Goodman] or to Don Wallace. It was like, “You know, there are other artists here.” GARY: “Romita is known for Spider-Man, but you’ve got a Jack Kirby Spider-Man. I can get Romita to do you a Spider-Man.” But those posters were so similar to each other that what Jack drew, these guys just followed through, too. TJKC: Did Stan request the changes because he thought Jack was going to be leaving Marvel? 34

STEVE: It was an outrageous amount, but he’d have the printer print them as a test. He’d say, “Okay, run 3000 for me and let me see what it looks like. Then I’m going to order a million of them.” Then Don would sell those— [laughter] TJKC: And not pay for them? STEVE: Yeah! Not pay for them. GARY: Meanwhile, he’s putting out four-color letters and memos—things, which he has no money for, so the decals were paying for that. When the printer for the decals showed up, he couldn’t pay him in letterheads. That’s when it started to get dicey. So Jack came down to the office. STEVE: And took all the posters and whatever artwork— TJKC: When you’re saying “the

posters,” you mean the original art? STEVE: Yeah, the original art for the posters, in blackand-white. Yeah, he took ’em. I don’t remember what happened when Don came back. Don had taken off for a few weeks with his wife, who was Swedish, because he just figured he needed a vacation. [laughs] The guy with no money, flat broke, said, “You know what? I could use a European vacation.” So he took off, so that’s when all this happened. TJKC: It probably was a good time to go to Europe, it sounds like. Do you remember what you guys were making at Marvelmania? STEVE: I was making $2.50 an hour. [laughter] GARY: $1.65 an hour to roll posters. I showed up one Saturday and there’s maybe half an hour’s worth of work, so I rolled them up and said, “Well, that’s it for the posters.” And Don reaches into his pocket, throws some change at me, and says, “Go wait outside for somebody to pick you up.” He had a glass front where Mark’s desk was and your desk was, and he had his own room partitioned off, without any glass. I just sat outside on this half-brick wall, in front of the glass door. [laughs] Finally he said, “Ah, I feel sorry for the kid. Let him come in and have some water or something.” [laughter] Don ran it like a Marine would run it—whatever Don thought a Marine was—and all he had was a bunch of L.A. comic kids, wiseguy little Jewish kids going, “Who is this guy? And why should we listen to him?”

At the L.A. comic club, when we weren’t at Marvelmania, the talk was, “The guy’s broke, isn’t this a joke what’s going on.” Then we’d come in and go to work. So as for when I first met Jack, I didn’t meet him until they moved to Thousand Oaks.

TJKC: Had he actually drawn any pages at that point?

TJKC: So Jack decides he’s going to move to DC, and he needs assistants, so he just calls you guys up because he knew you through Marvelmania, and says, “Hey, top secret, but I’m switching companies and I need assistants. Do you want the job?”

STEVE: No, he still hadn’t started drawing it yet. He just had the color renditions, and maybe he had the cover that he was starting to do. He told us about Jimmy Olsen; he said, “They wanted me to take over Superman and Batman. Now, I don’t want to take work away from any of those guys.” So he said, “What’s the one that’s the worst seller?” They said, “Jimmy Olsen.” He said, “All right, I’ll do that, if you really want me to do a Superman title.”

STEVE: Right. It wasn’t so much like a job, it was just like, “Would you guys like to help me do this?” It was like, “Sure.”

TJKC: Had you guys even heard of the Newsboy Legion at that point?

TJKC: Did he say, “I’m going to pay you so much a month?”

STEVE: Yeah, we had seen it. Before we had joined the L.A. comic club—in 1966, when Batman hit and everybody went comic book crazy, on Hollywood Boulevard there were three bookstores that started selling old comics. We started seeing all the old ’40s comics and stuff, which were five dollars apiece. Nobody could afford that; who wants to pay five dollars for a comic book? [laughter]

STEVE: No, we never talked about money at all. It was just like, “Yeah, we’ll do it. Whatever money you pay us is fine.” We were still at Marvelmania, and that’s why Mark did that last issue of Marvelmania magazine where it was all this stuff about Jack, “Goodbye, Jack” and “A Tribute to Jack” and all that. When Don saw that, he blew his top. He said, “I’m not printing that!” I had left before Mark did, because Mark stayed to finish up that issue. When he left, some other guys from the L.A. comic club came in and said, “Oh, well, we can do that, too.” So they changed it all. That’s why there’s two last issues. There’s a blue cover and a black cover.

TJKC: Becoming Jack Kirby’s assistant, were you so jaded by having known him for so long that this wasn’t any big deal, or was it like, “Man, this is a dream come true”?

(previous page, top) Kirby Toys For Tots poster art. (previous page, center) A young Mark Evanier hard at work pasting up an issue of Marvelmania Magazine. (previous page, bottom) The LA Comic Book Club. These guys really did skew older than many groups of comics fans of the era. (above) Kirby pencil drawing done for Marvelmania. (below) The prototypes for the pewter statues sold through Marvelmania. Captain America, Iron Man, Spider-Man, Thor TM & ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc.

GARY: They tore out everything that they thought was going to bother—whatever bothered Don was just re-edited. TJKC: What were the logistics of becoming Jack’s assistant? The next day, did you go out to his house and talk about what you’d be doing? STEVE: Yeah, I think it was maybe two weeks later or a couple of weekends later. I drove out there with Mark to the first house they had in Thousand Oaks, and Jack just showed us all the new stuff. All these color renditions, “This is Mister Miracle, this is the New Gods, this is this....” 35

pick up the stuff for the rest of the day, then at night I would take it back to them. I was learning how to use this typewriter that had a ball on it that would justify type. That’s how we did Kirby Unleashed, because I was working there, and I had access to all this graphic arts equipment. That’s how I made my car payments, and I was going to college, and I had Jack on the weekends, on Sunday. TJKC: Oh, so Jack wasn’t during the week? STEVE: I’d work with Mark during the week, but we’d go out to see Jack every Sunday. TJKC: Do you remember what Jack was paying you guys? STEVE: Well, he was paying us then by the page, so I think we were getting— TJKC: By the page of what? STEVE: Like, the letters page. I think we got thirty dollars a page for the letters page. Then, for the books, like In the Days of the Mob and Spirit World, the photographs and the stories we wrote— GARY: Yeah, Steve took the photos. STEVE: I think we were just getting page rate; whatever DC page rates were back then, that’s what he would pay us. GARY: Steven always brought over the Italian fumetti photo comics. “Look at this!” STEVE: Yeah, I thought they were cool. GARY: Really nice comics that Jack could flip through. “Ooh, very interesting.” But I don’t know that as an artist, a guy that actually could draw the comics, he had an interest in—well, the stories he liked. But he would go, “Very nice.” I thought they were very nice, too. So Steven did one for Jack in Spirit World, photographed our mom in the Peugot for “I Saw Kennedy’s Ghost,” or a premonition of Kennedy being shot. That’s our mom in our father’s Peugot in the driveway. “Now, look scared, Mom!” [laughter] TJKC: So it wasn’t an actual nine-to-five, weekday thing. You’d go over on Sundays and you’d do some work during the week on your time, and bring stuff in on Sunday. Jack would go, “Oh, great, great, great. Here, do this.”

(above) Who knew? Gary and Steve’s mom (shown here in the family Peugot) was a psychic who foresaw the assassination of JFK. From Spirit World #1 (and only). (right) Dr. Doom pencil art that appeared in Marvelmania Magazine. (next page, top) Father and son? Jack was involved in the creation of Spider-Man, but the full extent is still unclear. Based on these C.C. Beck pencils (next page, bottom), so was Beck, and Joe Simon, for that matter. Spirit World TM & ©2005 DC Comics. Dr. Doom. Spider-Man TM & ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc. Silver Spider TM & ©2005 respective owner.

STEVE: It wasn’t “jaded,” but we’d been around him and knew him enough that it was just like, “Yeah, it’s Jack. This’ll be fun.” At that point it wasn’t something I had planned on or really looked forward to doing or really wanted to do. It was there, and it seemed like fun. TJKC: So you were 20 at the time? STEVE: Yeah, about 20. TJKC: Was Jack offering you a livable wage? It couldn’t have been that much work, right? STEVE: No, not in the beginning. I was working part-time at a graphics place, in the morning, in the evening, as a split shift. So in the morning I’d go to the graphics place, and they would do manuals for aircraft companies. I would take all the stuff from the night before that all these typists would type and drop it off and

STEVE: “And here’s what I need to have. I’m going to be doing this next.” Or he’d say, “Oh, I’ve got to do another Jimmy Olsen.”

We’d say, “What’s it about?” And he says, “I don’t know, what do you think?” So we’d say, “Well, this might be funny,” and “this might be good.” And he’d go, “Yeah, yeah.” “Oh, how about this?” Then he’d go, “Okay.” TJKC: So Steve brought you out on his second day on the job? GARY: I bothered him for, I don’t know, what was it, two or three months? Finally my Mom had enough. STEVE: We once had a fight where I was getting in the car, and he tried to get in the car, and I’d drag him out of the car, and he was holding onto the— [much laughter] “No, you can’t go!” And I dragged him out of the car. GARY: Steve would say, “You should see the pencilwork that’s hanging around the house!” And, you know, in my imagination it was magnified. So finally Steve let me go, and to everybody he saw who saw me either in the car or at the Kirby’s, he said, “This is my brother Gary. My mother made me bring him.” [laughter] But after the first time, I became a fixture. I was sewn to his sleeve. STEVE: Yeah, Roz would say, “Where’s Gary?” GARY: I would go out there and just sit there and keep my mouth shut, look at all the pencil art that was out there. He didn’t really exaggerate, because it was a lot, a ton. Jack had stuff on a big, long table that was about three feet high, so your face was right into it. That’s where he left them, and I guess he’d go over there and work out the pages and what the stories were. So you could see a pile of Thor or Captain America, or a mixture of this, or some unused covers. And if he had something he was working on when we would come in, he’d stop and talk. I would just stare at the stuff, half listening, half not listening. STEVE: He just had it laying out there. They had a closet in his studio that had all the artwork in it, before they used Lisa’s bedroom for the art gallery. TJKC: Now, when you say “all the artwork,” stuff that he’d gotten back?

STEVE: Unused stuff, stuff that he’d saved. When we first got there, when he moved to the first house, they had everything still in boxes, and they were just unpacking. When we would go out there on Sundays, we’d go through the boxes, too, to unpack stuff. That’s where we saw the Black Magic covers, that’s where we saw the SpiderMan artwork for the Harvey Silver Spider. Mark and I saw it. We went, “Whoa!” It’s on that big heavy illustration board they used in the 1940s, and it had a paste-up on it. It was maybe four, five pages of C.C. Beck art, of the kid with the ring and the whole bit. And in pencil, it said, “Silver—” TJKC: I’ve seen the C.C. Beck art. Supposedly Jack did a first version of Spider-Man that Stan rejected. Did he actually draw pages and Stan said, “No, no, let’s get Ditko to do it”? STEVE: That I didn’t see; I don’t remember it. TJKC: Did Jack say to you, when you saw that stuff, “Yeah, yeah, that’s where Spider-Man came from?” STEVE: Yeah. He said, “Yeah, yeah. We were going to do this book for—it was when we were finishing up Mainline.” He said, “Jack Oleck wrote it. Then we decided ‘Silver Spider.’ Then we decided ‘SpiderMan.’ Ha ha ha!” GARY: A lot of things with Jack ended with the “Ha ha ha.” TJKC: Did he say, “And then I showed these pages to Stan,” or give you any other details like that? Because Stan says Jack drew a few Spider-Man pages, and it was too super-heroic, and he wanted a more “everyman” look for the character, so he gave it to Ditko. Ditko has said that he saw—I think he said it was the Kirby pages, and it was a kid with a magic ring and a gun or something like that, and Ditko completely took it a different direction. GARY: That’s funny, because the kid with the ring and the gun sounds like the Beck—. STEVE: Maybe Jack just took the Silver Spider stuff which Beck had done and redrew it, saying, “This is Spider-Man.” TJKC: I wonder if Jack actually redrew it, or if he literally showed those Beck pages to Stan and said, “What about this idea?” STEVE: He probably showed those pages to Stan and said, “Here’s this character, Spider-Man,” with the ring and everything. And Stan probably thought, “Yeah, but it’s like the Fly.” Because that’s what the Fly became, with the ring and Tommy Troy and all that stuff.

TJKC: I’ve often wondered if there’s really any initial Kirby Spider-Man pages out there. STEVE: I don’t think so. I’ve never seen it. TJKC: No one has ever seen it. So unless Stan’s got them hiding in a vault.... STEVE: Now, that could be. GARY: Or maybe they’re at Steve Ditko’s house. [laughter] TJKC: So you guys would see Jack every week. STEVE: Every weekend. GARY: And he would sit and tell great stories about ’40s comics, when he did Romance comics, when it was low, when it was high. He told some good stories about all those times, in-between planning what he wanted to do. STEVE: One weekend when he moved to the new house, the second house—they had just finished building it, and there was this empty lot next door. And we went to shoot the cover of In the Days of the Mob #2. [Gary laughs] So he said, “Here’s what I want to do.” The story was about some guy getting killed. So who did we have? Well, we had Gary, we had Jack, we had his daughter Barbara, we had Mark, and I was going to take the picture. So Jack had this big overcoat in the closet— GARY: A couple of them. STEVE: —and a derby hat from back East. He put that on, then he put Gary in a derby hat in a big overcoat. GARY: He put Barbara in a matching get-up, and said, “Put your hands in your pockets. Don’t let ’em see your hands! Hands make you look young.” STEVE: We had to get a gun, and I forget how we made the gun, if we drove down to the toy store and found a water pistol and painted it black. Anyway, then he said, “Now, we need the victim.” So Mark was the victim. [laughter] Mark was tied up and had a handkerchief tied around his mouth— GARY: From his eyes down to his chin. STEVE: Yeah. So he got down on his knees in the empty lot next to Jack’s house, and then Jack points the gun at him like this, with Gary and Barbara on either side, and I took this picture. And it was a really cool-looking picture! 37

GARY: Well, he had laid out how he wanted it. He’d drawn stick figures really quick—you here, and you down here. It’s a Kirby thing. It’s a blow-up of the victim with Jack’s gun coming at the victim’s head in the wide perspective-like thing, because you could stick the camera close enough to get that shot. Steven goes [makes clicking sound], snap, “Perfect!” [laughter] (below) This is probably Jack’s first layout for the cover of the still unpublished In The Days Of The Mob #2, which the gang used to shoot the central photo, with Mark Evanier as the blindfolded victim. Here’s hoping Mark can turn up that photo for his in-progress Kirby biography! (next page) Pencils from the story “Toxl the World Killer”, drawn for the unpublished Spirit World #2, and eventually seeing print in Weird Mystery Tales #2 (Oct. 1972). Mark Evanier dialogued the tale. In the Days of the Mob, Toxl, Spirit World TM & ©2005 DC Comics.

STEVE: It was hysterically funny because it’s Mark’s hair, so we know it’s Mark! So it was just—

GARY: Yeah, I don’t think they even make machines that can make a copy of it! [laughs] STEVE: So we tape it, and then at night, after the barbecue, we’d sit in the living room and play it back and crack up. TJKC: Then this was at their last house, with the swimming pool, on Sapra Street? STEVE: Yeah, right.

TJKC: I wonder whatever happened to that picture.

TJKC: Because they didn’t have a pool at the first house, did they?

STEVE: Either Jack has it—I know I made a blow-up poster of it, and it got lost. I’ve never seen it again. Jack might have kept all those negatives.

STEVE: Yeah, they did. It was a three-level. It was a gorgeous house. It was on the other side of the canyon. Jack’s studio was at the back of the house. It overlooked a swimming pool, then it would drop off, and there was a corral for Lisa’s horse, and then that would drop to the canyon. There was a canyon below it.

GARY: I’m sure Mark has something good. But that’s the kind of thing up there that we’d do, and when Neal came back from back East, he had brought that fraternity kind of attitude along, too, so everybody was always joking around and stuff. Steven and a friend had bought a boat—not a big one, but enough where they sold it to this actor who was in Summer of ’42. The kid said, “Well, I’ll trade you this video tape recorder for it.” It was a video tape recorder, state-of-the-art again, on reel-to-reel with that slant look to it. It had a camera that had no viewfinder. It was a security camera. We’d go out to Jack’s house to play with it, and Neal would dress up out by the pool and he was Captain Plunger. We just photographed stuff like that. I think you still have the videotape. There’s stuff with Jack on there, I’m sure, unless we erased it. STEVE: I don’t know. But it was early Beta.

GARY: It was designed perfectly, Jack had a real nice view. You’re at the pool and you can see him up in his glass-enclosed studio, seeing the guy draw while Roz is going, “Don’t get in the water, you just ate!” [laughter] TJKC: Tell me about those black-and-white books. Did Jack think this was really going to sell and these were really going to be the wave of the future? STEVE: Well, he wanted to get out of comic books. He felt that 32 pages for twelve, fifteen cents just wasn’t going anywhere. He needed to try something different. That’s what was happening. Steranko was trying his big-size stuff, in Europe they were doing those—that stuff was starting to come over here, the color portfolios and stuff. Jack said, “Yeah, that’s the way comics should be done, a hardback book. That would be great!” So somehow he talked to Carmine [Infantino] and convinced DC to do the magazines, which would be for adults. TJKC: Mark mentioned that he wanted to do a Dracula book. STEVE: Yeah, he wanted to do horror. He wanted to do it all. He wanted to have a line of them that would be different than comic books. At the time I hadn’t read that much about the history of comics, so now I realize that all the crime stuff and the Spirit World stuff was basically Black Magic and crime comics all over again, but just done in a different way. It’s funny, because In the Days of the Mob came out before The Godfather, and Spirit World came out before The Exorcist. Had he been just a little bit later.... And the thing was, Mark and I did a lot of work on those books for research and stuff, and we wrote a couple of stories. That’s when we did the photo stuff, so it was going to be different. And DC distributed through a different—they came up with another name for the distribution. I think it was... TJKC: Hampshire Limited? STEVE: Yeah. Well, what we didn’t know is, when they printed those things, they printed them with that blue ink on the cheap paper. Jack was just flabbergasted. He just said, “This is toilet paper! This is what joke toilet paper is printed on! What is this?” We thought it was going to be nice paper. You know, a magazine, slick paper. That’s how he drew it, and he was going, “What is this?” It bled, it was just cheap. GARY: I think this was Jack’s beginning for graphic novels, myself. When he talked to Steven and Mark about this stuff, it sounded to me like what eventually became graphic novels, only not just the one-story thing. It was a magazine style, and he wanted Rock stories in there and art. He said whatever medium it took to tell the story, let’s use that. So he was open to a lot of stuff. And every time that idea came up, it generated another idea, which was the newspaper that they were going to do.

STEVE: They put out the first two issues of those magazines and they just... because the timing was wrong, too. I think at that time there was no place to put it on the newsstand. I know we had a hard time finding it in southern California. It was a hit-or-miss thing. I don’t know how well it got distributed, either. We had already started working on the second issues, and they just didn’t print ’em. And, y’know, it’s DC. Let’s face it. It just didn’t fit into what they did. They weren’t open to it. TJKC: Were you privy to Jack’s end of phone calls with Carmine Infantino? Did you hear him talking to him at all? STEVE: Maybe once or twice when I was there, Carmine would call, because that would usually be during the week. But Jack would tell us, “Yeah, I talked to Carmine about this stuff.” GARY: It was Roz that would intimate that either it was a good or bad phone call. She was very ominous about it, too. They outright trusted everybody, but it took a long time to gain their trust. You know how it was there, everybody was a family. But she’d always take Steve to the side and say, “Don’t tell anybody, but this happened.” Steve would look around and say, “The only time I’m involved in comic books is here on Sunday. Who am I going to tell?” TJKC: Was the sense that things went well with Carmine early and they deteriorated later on, or was it always kind of—? STEVE: No, things started off great. When he first started out, it was just like, “Jack, whatever you want. Let’s change the way things are done,” and all that. Jack was like, “Yeah!” I mean, Jack told Mark and me when we were there at the very beginning that he’s the one that told Carmine, “Bring back Captain Marvel.” TJKC: Because look at what Jack put out. Other than the Fourth World stuff, which was totally different, everything he did at DC seemed to be updated versions of what he’d done before. They redid crime comics, they redid horror comics, the brought back the Newsboys, brought back Sandman later on. Manhunter was there. OMAC is sort of like Captain Marvel. Was that all Jack’s doing, or was this Carmine...?

STEVE: That was Carmine, because Carmine was the publisher and he had the sales figures, and he would tell Jack, “This is the book that I think you need to put out.” And, as far as Jack was concerned, that was who he worked for. TJKC: As far as Jack and Carmine’s relationship, at what point did you get a sense that he wasn’t as happy as he’d started out? STEVE: Probably once the New Gods and Forever People were cancelled. TJKC: I’ve heard different things. “Oh well, he wasn’t

that upset about it.” But how could he not be? I mean, he’d poured his heart and soul into it. STEVE: Yeah, he wasn’t upset to the point where the guy was, like, crying, sitting in his chair going, “Ohhh!” He’d been in the business long enough that he was like—. GARY: “Okay, we tried that, now let’s try something else.” STEVE: “I tried it. I liked doing them.” I think the thing that bothered him the most was the fact that he couldn’t do any more stories to entertain himself. 39

That’s why he did these things, because that’s what he wanted to read. He’d have this idea and he wanted to see it. That’s why he could sit there and draw it out, and once it was drawn out and he saw it, he was like, “Yeah! I like that! That’s what I wanted to see.” Then he’d go on, and then the next time he came back he’d say, “Oh, yeah, what else is happening?” He was drawing these things because he wanted to read these stories. So I think that’s what hurt him the most, the fact that, “Gee, I won’t be reading these stories anymore.” [laughs] “Nobody’s going to put this out!” GARY: He was the kind of guy that entertained himself with that stuff. That’s why all his stories started out with that kernel of truth that he would... not exaggerate, but extrapolate and bring out the highlights of stuff until it finally ballooned into these larger-than-life stories. His war stories—I was watching the same movie he watched, then the next day he told me this whole scene from the movie, but Jack was in it! “The sergeant told me, ‘We’d like to send you home, but this is a top secret mission.’ And if I told anybody, we would ruin the secret.” And it was in this movie I’d just seen that night before, but Jack was saying it like the sergeant was talking to him. [laughter] TJKC: So take his war stories with a grain of salt, is that what you’re saying? Some of them? GARY: Well, some of the later stuff. That was his thing, he would read and write to amuse himself, and his stories were always— STEVE: He knew he had an audience. I mean, he knew he had to sell books, and he knew it had to be for the general age group and the general audience, but he also did it because this is what he wanted to see. GARY: I think he touched a vein. Whatever it was that he wanted to see, there was a big group of people out there that wanted to see it, too. And that vein he tapped all the time is what came out of there. He’d sit 40

and he’d giggle, “Look what I did here!” And he’d give that Jack laugh about, “Check out what I did here, in this book, read this.” And he’d hand the pages over. STEVE: He’d sit there smoking while you read it and he’d go, [imitation Jack laughter] “Gotcha, didn’t I?” [laughter] Because you’d turn the page and there’d be this, y’know, full-page panel. Then you’d go, “Wow!” And he’d go, [Jack laugh] “I gotcha, didn’t I?” TJKC: So he took great enjoyment out of impressing the reader? STEVE: Yeah! TJKC: On that subject: Funky Flashman. Were you there when he was working on that story?

STEVE: Yeah. TJKC: Did you know in advance he was going to put Stan in Mister Miracle? STEVE: Boy, I can’t remember if he had mentioned it or not, but I just know that when I came out there he said, “Here’s the next book,” and he showed me the pages, and I just went, “You’ve got to be kidding me, Jack!” Because at that point I think something was going on that he was really pissed off about. Either Marvel was reprinting some of his stuff a lot, or they were saying something—. TJKC: Well, that was around ’72, I think, and that was around the time that Joe Simon was suing for

the ownership of Captain America. STEVE: Wasn’t that earlier than that? Because I know when I first met him— TJKC: Well, Joe first filed for the copyright in the ’60s, but it dragged on. And there’s a document I’ve seen from around ’72 when Marvel’s lawyers had Jack sign something else in return for so much money or something. STEVE: Yeah, I read that, too. All I know is when we first met him and we were talking to him he would say, “Yeah, I still own half of Captain America. I still own Captain America.” And we’d go, “You do? Really? How is that?” He said, “Well, Joe and all this,” sued them, so if that was going on then, maybe— GARY: That was one of the more disappointing and frustrating things about going out there, because Jack and Roz kept that stuff a lot to themselves. You could ask them questions and they would answer, but who’s going to broach the subject?

and Stan, and he started taking over some of Stan’s books. So, to Jack, that’s who he knew. He didn’t know anybody else who was coming in there. TJKC: When he sent these pages off to DC, he didn’t have any second thoughts that this might—? STEVE: Apparently not. TJKC: And Carmine didn’t have any qualms about printing it? STEVE: Not that I heard of. No. GARY: I think, again, it was that neo-frat-boy influence that came through in that issue. Because the four of them, Mark, Neal, Steve, and Jack, they’d hang out like a bunch of—you know, whoever had the funniest line, that one led the floor. Jack loved to make up funny stuff. We sat at a convention one time laughing over the

(previous page) Penciled splash from Forever People #11 (Oct. 1972). Note the credit for “research.” (below) Mister Miracle #6 Jan. 1972), page 7 pencils. Big Barda, Forever People, Funky Flashman, Mr. Miracle, Oberon TM & ©2005 DC Comics.

STEVE: Yeah, they wouldn’t volunteer it. GARY: So you’d see Neal patching up a hole—I think they purposely bought those hollow doors, because there’s another hole in the door that Jack made after hanging up the phone, and there’s Neal patching another. “Yeah, that’s my pop.” STEVE: Yeah, we were laughing yesterday. We went to lunch with Lisa, and she had forgotten about these flower stickers that they used to have in the ’70s. Jack punched a hole in the door, and she would just put the sticker over the hole. TJKC: Why would Jack punch holes? STEVE: Just out of frustration. I mean, it’s not a lot. The entire time I knew him, maybe twice. TJKC: Was it frustration over something at Marvel or DC? STEVE: Yeah, something just frustrated him. They either wouldn’t do something, or maybe even with Carmine, he’d build up and build up and go, “Dammit!” POW! And then he’d go, “I didn’t mean to do that.” TJKC: Back to Funky Flashman. Was Jack like, “Oh, yeah, I got him good!”? STEVE: Not so much “I got him good,” but he would just laugh like that, [imitation Kirby laugh] “What do you think?” “Jack, that’s Stan, and that’s Roy Thomas.” He goes, “Yeah, I know!” GARY: “Look what I named him. Houseroy!” STEVE: Yeah, “Look at this!” [Kirby laugh] TJKC: Did he have a grudge against Roy? STEVE: Nah, nah. Not really. It just happened to be Roy because I think that’s who he knew, because about the time he left, it was Stan and Roy. And even before he left, when it started getting bigger, Roy was the first one there who started interfacing between Jack 41

eggs on a plate, for some reason I don’t remember now. I just do remember we were focused on the eggs. Jack loved that stuff. So, to him, I don’t think Funky Flashman was a bitter jibe at anybody. To him that was funny.

(below) The inimitable Funky Flashman (aka Stan Lee) from Mister Miracle #6. (next page) Jack waxes philosophical in New Gods #8 (April 1972). Funky Flashman, Mr. Miracle, New Gods TM & ©2005 DC Comics.

STEVE: Yeah, it was like, “Hey, I’m making fun of you! See that? I’m making fun of you!” GARY: “No hard feelings.” [laughter] TJKC: So what did Jack tell you about Stan over the years, good or bad? GARY: All those stories you hear in the books are pretty much— STEVE: Yeah, when I first met him as a fan, going, “What was it like, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby?” “Stan Lee? C’mon. It’s all hooey.” I think what bothered him about Stan was, if you look at Stan Lee from the ’40s to the ’50s, you see he’s wearing a white shirt and a tie, he’s bald. He looked like some Madison Avenue ad guy. Then, when he started becoming the hip, cool Stan Lee, and he started transforming himself, I think that’s what got to Jack—because

Jack Kirby was Jack Kirby. Jack was Jack, that’s what you got, whereas with Stan, you didn’t really get the real Stan Lee, you got the Stan Lee persona that he wanted you to see—and this, I think, was Jack’s feeling. I think he tried to present that persona to Jack at some point, and Jack just wouldn’t buy it. “What do you mean? You’re not the hip, cool guy you’re making up! I know who you are!” He would come into Stan’s office, and Stan would be in there writing his speeches and his sayings and stuff, and go, “Jack, what do you think of this? ‘Hey, groovy guys and girls!’” And he’d just go, “Stan, that’s fine, but I don’t need to hear this.” TJKC: You guys knew him right after he left Marvel. From things he said, did you get the sense that he truly felt like he’d created, or did more than 50% of the creation work, on the stuff with Stan? STEVE: Sure. TJKC: He genuinely felt that, even at that stage? STEVE: Yeah. TJKC: Because later on, after that original art battle with Marvel, he said some pretty bad stuff. “Stan didn’t do anything, I did everything.” STEVE: Well, I think that original art thing was the changing point. You have before that, and you have after that. That really just changed his entire perception, because I think at that point he felt, “I have to go as far to the other side as I can just to make my point. I can’t be a nice guy. If they’re going to do this, then I’m going to say I did it all. ‘Yeah, I did it all! He didn’t do anything!’” TJKC: Okay, but to get a more realistic idea of what he really thought, when you guys first met him and he would talk about this, did he already have the attitude that “I did most of the work and Stan didn’t do anything”? Do you think he genuinely felt that way? STEVE: Yeah. Well, he would say, “I wrote it. I would write it. I would draw it. I’d send it to Stan, and he’d put the dialogue in.” GARY: “And he’d get the buttons on the shirt correct.” STEVE: I don’t know if this was true or not; he just told us, “And do you know what? I don’t even think Stan wrote it! I think Stan hires these guys to write it for him!” Which meant guys who used to work in comics who needed work who would come in. But that was just Jack, I don’t know if he was just jerking me around, if he was serious, or if in that moment it was his way of making a point. GARY: Yeah, he did like to extrapolate. STEVE: We didn’t talk about it that much, but at one point, just from the fan aspect, I said, “Didn’t Stan do something, Jack?” And he said, “He’s a good editor. He’s a good salesman. He’s a good promoter. He took the stuff that I gave him and he did a great job promoting it.” And Jack felt that that was really a strength that Stan had. So it wasn’t so much that he just hated the guy, didn’t want anything to do with

him. He just felt that since Stan was in charge, and he was a relative of Martin Goodman, there was nothing Jack could do to change that dynamic. And he didn’t think it was right that Stan would put “Written by Stan Lee,” all that stuff. Because Jack felt he wrote it.

say to you, “Yeah, you know, I created the Fantastic Four. Stan didn’t have anything to do with that.” STEVE: He didn’t say [Stan] never had anything to do with it, but he said, “Yeah, I created the Fantastic Four, I created the Hulk, I created the Avengers.”

TJKC: That really coincides with, to me, the later stuff, where you see the margin notes and all that. Yeah, he did write it.

STEVE: Somewhat. But he was a ham. He wanted to be an actor. GARY: He definitely wanted to be an actor. When I got into television and was starting to work as a grip, that was all our conversations were about, what’s going on in television or movies. “You know, I wanted to be just like John Garfield. He grew up in my neighborhood.” And that was his—his eyes lit up.

STEVE: He even said, on the early stuff, they would talk on the phone, and Stan would— maybe they’d go back and forth. “What about this?” “No, I don’t think so. What about this?” “Okay.” Because Jack was the kind of guy that, if you said, “Well, what about this?” He’d go, “Yeah, okay,” and either omit it or not later.

TJKC: Let’s go with that. You mentioned you were working on The Hogan Family. Tell that story.

GARY: From what we saw of him working on the New Gods, and seeing him talking to Steven and Mark, I don’t think there was a big change from the way he worked on comics at DC from the way he worked on comics at Marvel. People complained about stilted dialogue and everything, but these were the same kind of stories that you saw at Marvel, except every once in a while you got, “Hey, kid, you’re a funny guy! You should be on Johnny Carson!” You know, a real hip reference. Jack just went a different way. You put the DC Jack stuff next to the Marvel, and it looks the same. It reads in continuity. You’re expecting that continuity rather than the DC world. So I think his writing these books is exactly that, he wrote these books, Stan dialogued them. I think he wanted to get that kind of credit in there. STEVE: I asked him once, “What do you consider yourself? Are you a writer or are you an artist?” And Jack said, “I’m a cartoonist.” I think, to him, “cartooning” meant he wrote it, he drew it. Designing the characters was part of the writing, the layout was part of the writing, the composition was part of the writing. That was all part of putting it down on paper. I think he felt that putting in the dialogue after all that was done was maybe the equivalent of lettering or coloring. [laughs] TJKC: But as far as the creation of the characters and stuff, did Jack—early on—I’m not talking about later, after the original art battle. Early on, did Jack

everybody said to him, too, that it was a Frankenstein. And of course, to Jack, whatever anybody said was good; he would go, “Yes, you’re absolutely right.” He was always trying to entertain. I think he thought of himself as an entertainer.

GARY: You know Thor was Jack. His interest in Norse mythology was—he had book upon book behind him; it was authenticated that it was his interest in that that brought about Thor. And the story about seeing a woman pick up a car [as his inspiration for the Hulk], he told that tons of times. But then, after a while—I watched him at work one night, and after putting down, like, a Life magazine that always had those atomic disaster things in there, he had this old black-and-white TV on. I figured he probably had a Frankenstein movie on one night, and he’d look up and look down, see the Life magazine and the Frankenstein movie. Because

GARY: I was a dolly grip on a Miller/Boyette show called The Hogan Family. Jason Bateman was one of the stars on the show. And Tracy [Jack’s granddaughter] was into her acting stuff, and she had done Annie. So the only person they knew at the time that was in television was me, so I got them tickets. Tracy wanted to meet Jason, and I said, “Sure!” So I got tickets for them. It was Jack and Roz, Neal and Barbara, and Tracy. And they all came down to the show. We had a warm-up girl who always got everything wrong, no matter what. I took her over to the side and said, “I’ve got a special friend here in the audience tonight.” She would introduce people in the audience all the time in-between camera shooting. I said, “His name’s Jack Kirby. He’s part of Marvel Comics and created Captain America, the Hulk, Spider-Man, the X-Men.” When there was a lull, makeup or hair change, and that usually took a half an hour, she would do her jokes. She said, “We have a very special guest here. One of our dolly grips brought a friend of his to the show, we want to introduce you to the man who created Spider-Man and the Hulk”—that was all she said—“Mister Jack Kirby!” And we had these producers, Chip and Doug Keyes, and they were six-foot-three, and wore 43

cowboy boots. Their heads spun around like Steven Segal had snapped them and looked at me, because they heard “our dolly grip.” They came stomping over, and go, “You know Jack Kirby?” with a stern look on their face. I said, “Yeah.” And then, “I’ve got every issue of the Avengers! My favorite’s Captain America #4!” And so I said, “Do you want to meet him?” [laughs] To my producers! They still didn’t really know my name. They did after that night, but they didn’t know my name. And so, at the end of the night, the actors would hang out and autograph scripts for some of the audience members. I remember the last actor giving an autograph, walking away, and still about six or seven people in the audience getting Jack’s autograph, with these two huge producers also, with their scripts back there going, “Would you draw the Thing?” [laughter] So Tracy wanted to meet Jason. His dressing room was in the back. He had markers all over the place, and all his friends. Jason was 13, 14, at the time, so everybody scrawled graffiti all over the walls. When Jack came back to meet him, he asked him to draw something on the wall. Jack drew a Thing saying something to the effect of “Welcome to my family,” something like that, to Jason. Unfortunately, these dressing rooms were temporary. And when the show was cancelled, or maybe even the next season, everything got repainted, so there goes it. I mean, everybody knew who Jack Kirby was. TJKC: What year would that have been? GARY: The Hogan Family was in the ’80s—’86, ’87. TJKC: Jack’s Hulk TV show cameo; how’d that happen? GARY: I want to set the record straight that it was me who called up Universal and talked to Ken Johnson, executive producer of the Hulk. I came home from work as a grip on the Hulk, and I was just livid. “They’re doing Jack’s stuff! This is Jack’s!” I had a call sheet that had the producer’s office’s phone numbers. I called Roz and asked, “Do you mind if I stir up the pot a little bit?” She said, “Go ahead, Gary,” thinking nothing of it. So I called up and said, “I represent Jack Kirby, and I wonder if you guys could correct a little problem. He’d like to have a little “created by” title put onto this thing.” So I got to the executive producer and he said, “Could you hold on a minute?” Click. And I never get back on. So I called back and the secretary says, “Who’s calling?” I said, “Gary Sherman.” She said, “Oh, we’re not supposed to talk to 44

you.” [laughter] Finally they hooked me up to a lawyer, who said, “Write me a letter.” So Steven and I typed up a letter saying, “Hi, I’m Gary Sherman, I represent Jack Kirby.” And as proof we xeroxed one of those magazines where Stan had done an interview saying, “Oh, yeah, Jack does all this and that,” you know, one of those. “Jack does it all,” or “Jack draws it and then I just add a little dialogue.” This was our proof. STEVE: What we did was, we got legal stationery, with the numbers on the side? “And here are our points,” and listed the points. Then we xeroxed the interview with Stan where he says, “Jack basically writes all this stuff,” from, I think, Castle of Frankenstein. Then we xeroxed the pages of the Hulk that said, “By Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.” It didn’t say “written and illustrated,” it just said, “By Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.” We had about four or five different things and sent that to Universal. GARY: They sent us back a letter saying, “Our contract’s with Marvel. Your beef is with Marvel. Please don’t call us again.” I never knew this, but Steven told me that Marvel called up Jack and Roz and said, “What the hell is going on out there?” [laughter] And, in their typical Kirby way, they said, “We’ll handle it, we’ll take care of it,” and nothing was ever said of it again. But then, a

couple of weeks later, they called up Jack and asked him to be on the show. That’s where he was doing that police reporter thing. TJKC: Was this just as a kind of pacification thing? GARY: I would think so. STEVE: I think the producers weren’t aware, and they were kind of like, “Oh, Jack Kirby! Let’s invite him on the show!” And that’s how he got his SAG [Screen Actor’s Guild] card. GARY: I’m taking credit for it. TJKC: So the Paul McCartney thing, that was you too? GARY: We had gone to the concert; “we” meaning my family, my brother and my sister. Eight of us all had gone, and in the program book was the song “Magneto and Titanium Man.” So I made a call to Capitol Records the next day and told them, “I know Jack Kirby and he has a gift for Paul,” before even talking to Jack about this. [laughter] Everybody I talked to—and I went through a chain of about six or seven people until I got to McCartney’s agents—said, “Oh, yeah! Jack Kirby! I dig that guy’s work!” Everybody in the record business knew him. So we got all this information, when are we going to come down—finally they said, “Paul would like to meet Jack.” I called up Jack and I said, [laughter] “Quick, Jack! Draw something up with Paul McCartney on it, and we’re going down to the Forum to meet him. I’ll pick you up.” TJKC: So he didn’t know any of this was coming? GARY: Not until that call. So he said, “Well, I have no reference of him.” Jack knew who the Beatles were, but which one was Paul? So I said to Lisa, “Do you have the Venus and Mars album?” And she says, “I do!” “Give it to him and let him do something.” And that came with a booklet of pictures of him. So Jack drew this picture of Magneto holding his hand out, and Paul leaning over Linda, and the group gradually shrinking back to whose face he didn’t know, being held aloft by Magneto’s magnetism. And, by the way, Jack pronounced it “Mag-NET-oh.” My wife Connie once said, “He created him, he knows how to call him.” So Jack drew them, and by the time I got there—I was in Marina Del Rey, and he was in Thousand Oaks, which is a good fifty minute drive—it’s 4:30 in the afternoon, rush hour traffic. I get out there and he’s got a finished 81⁄2" x 11" drawing, and covered it with tape, and a little baker’s paper, whatever that brown paper is. And they’re all ready to go. So I take a breather and hop into Roz’s Continental, this black Continental they had. It’s Lisa, Jack, Roz and me, and we go down there. We pull into the back, give them our name at the guard gate, and go down into the loading dock at the Forum in Inglewood. We get out and there’s this guy there to meet us. “I’m a big fan of yours, Jack!” Well, Jack had just published those Gods posters. I’d grabbed a handful of those. I had told everybody I talked to on the phone that I knew was influential, that we didn’t have tickets for the concert yet. And so the guy said, “I’m sorry I don’t have tickets for you.” STEVE: These were sold-out shows. GARY: Yeah. “I just want you to meet Paul, I’m a big fan of yours.” Boom, he got four posters. So Linda comes around the corner and she goes, “Oh, hello! How are you?” I start snapping pictures, and where those pictures are—. Linda gives us a tour of backstage. We go into the room where the band is warming up—warming up is passing a bottle of Jack Daniels around—and they get a poster and stuff. Finally, Paul comes around the corner with, “Hello, what’s this?” So Linda introduces Jack to Paul, and I’m snapping pictures and I’m holding the drawing, and I said, “Oh, Paul, Jack has a drawing for you.” “Who are you?” [laughter] “I’m Gary, a friend of the family.” So Linda says, “Well, how nice.” And the thing about the McCartneys was that they were like Jack and Roz, you couldn’t get them apart, they were right next to each other. They talked to each other for about ten, fifteen minutes, and Paul said, “You saved my holiday in the Bahamas. The kids were so bored, they had nothing to do, and we went down to the corner liquor store and we bought comic books for them. But we ended up reading them!” [laughter] So they talked a little bit about that, and then he

says, “Do you have tickets for the show?” I immediately shook my head, “No, no we don’t, Mr. McCartney, we don’t have tickets to your show tonight!” So immediately, two blinks and there’s tickets. [laughter] TJKC: Amazing, huh? GARY: The guy who said, “I don’t have tickets, don’t ask for them.” Boom. So we say hello and do the greetings, and I ask, “Can I get a picture with Paul?” So I start to stand between Paul and Linda, and I’m slowly shuffled down by Paul and Linda to next to Linda, and Jack’s on the right of Paul. And they were doing something, for some reason. The photo that I’m going to get to you is of Paul and Linda saying, “That’s Roz, that’s Jack, that’s Lisa,” and then they’re both like this. “And he’s...”—in that British accent—“GA-ry!” [John laughs] I was always jazzed about that. So we get to what they called the Senator’s Level of the Forum, and we’re sitting there. I’m craning all over the place trying to see, who’s here? Michael Douglas, Farrah Fawcett and Ryan O’Neal. All your faves from the ’70s and ’80s were there, and I thought, “Gee, this is kind of cool. These are really good tickets. I guess Paul has influence.” [laughter] During every song Paul would dedicate a song or two to somebody, and just before he did “Magneto,” he said, “This one’s dedicated to a friend of mine in the audience, Jack—”. And the name escaped him for a minute, then Linda goes, “Kirby!” “Kirby, Jack Kirby! Thank you, Jack!” [John laughs] And we’re all going “yay” and applauding. TJKC: Did Jack stand up and wave or anything? GARY: The Forum holds twenty thousand people and it was dead blackness. The sound was so much, I think Jack was just....

(previous page, top) Steve Sherman, Jack’s granddaughter Tracy Kirby, and Gary Sherman at the 2004 Comicon: International in San Diego, CA. (previous page, bottom) Prior to the “McCartney Incident,” Jack’s last use of Magneto was in this story from Fantastic Four #102 (Sept. 1970), done just prior to leaving Marvel Comics.

TJKC: Overwhelmed? GARY: The lights and everything. He didn’t go to many concerts. That was kind of a good night out for him. TJKC: But he knew who McCartney was; he knew this was a big deal? GARY: He knew who the Beatles were. He couldn’t tell you which one Paul was. Later on, unfortunately, I saw that page up for sale somewhere, so I guess Paul didn’t get it out of his—once again, a Beatle gets ripped off. [laughter] And those are my tales of television for Jack. Although every time I mention that I know him or something, there’s not one person that doesn’t say, “Oh, Jack Kirby! Fantastic Four! I love his stuff!” Or New Gods. And, as a camera coordinator, I do a lot of composition, and there’s a lot of Jack Kirby—. Close your eyes and think what kind of an image is this going to—. How do I fit eight people into this scene?

TJKC: Any other Hollywood/TV/entertainment stuff? GARY: Not that I remember. 45

“I understand you’re an artist.” “Yes, love to draw, love to draw.” I said, “You live out in Thousand Oaks, don’t you?” And all of a sudden I get that “Who wants to know?” A real paranoid, suspicious guy. And I said, “Well, I have a friend of mine who draws comic books, he drew Captain America and created him, Jack Kirby. He’s an artist, too, who lives out there. Maybe you artists might want to meet each other?” “Sounds interesting, sounds interesting.” And when we talked about it for a couple of days, that’s about as far as it got. TJKC: Well, the whole Goody Rickels thing; I saw Don Rickles on the David Letterman show a few years ago, and they actually pulled out the Jimmy Olsen issues. STEVE: Oh, they did? I didn’t know that! TJKC: You guys never actually talked to Don Rickles, and Jack didn’t meet him? STEVE: No. We talked to his publicist, and hence they all went through him. TJKC: And they just thought, “It sounds like a good idea, go ahead”? STEVE: Yeah, “sounds funny.” GARY: PR for Rickles. TJKC: They didn’t ask to approve the story or see the likeness or anything? STEVE: I don’t think they wanted to see the likeness. I remember, I think it was after that, I was in Vegas, and I went to where Don Rickles was performing in some thing, but I couldn’t get to see him. GARY: Did you bring any books? STEVE: I don’t think so, no. GARY: I know that they sent them some books. Jack and Roz, somebody said to us, “Get either the agent’s address or whatever you can on Rickles.” So DC didn’t send him anything, DC didn’t do any promotion for the thing. TJKC: Did you see him on Letterman? GARY: I saw that. TJKC: Because Letterman pulled it out, and he went, “Oh, yeah, that thing.” Just like, “Ugghh.”

(above) Goody Rickels (doppleganger for Don Rickles) causes pandemonium in this pencil page from Jimmy Olsen #139 (July 1971). (next page) Holy hijinks! When this Kirby cover for the fan magazine Amazing Heroes was published in the early 1980s, the stick of dynamite was colored a flesh-tone, causing a lot of readers to wonder just what that was in the guy’s mouth. Inks by Mike Royer. Clark Kent, Darkseid, Guardian, Orion TM & ©2005 DC Comics.

Just the fact that Jack lived near Strother Martin, and they became friends. The guy who was in the Peckinpah movie The Wild Bunch. He was an old guy, a famous character actor—Westerns, mostly. They took a shine to each other. And I worked with Jonathan Winters, and almost had Jack meet Jonathan Winters. Jonathan Winters was a painter of Indians, an oil painter. TJKC: Jonathan Winters, the comedian? GARY: Yes, Jonathan Winters, the comedian. I was working on a show called More Wild Wild West, and he was the villain. Somebody had to help him in and out of this gondola that we built. Of course, it wasn’t in my job description, but I did everything I could to stand next to Jonathan Winters, and he would put on a one-man show! He did his baseball routine, or he would talk to a group of electricians about going to the zoo with his friend, and it was all made up! He was just doing a bit. So I told him at lunchtime, we were walking to the commissary, that,

GARY: Jack did all the dialogue, didn’t he? Or did you and Mark help him with the Rickles stuff? STEVE: No, I think that was all Jack’s. GARY: See, that was the lighter side of Jack Kirby. STEVE: At that point Rickles was pretty popular. He was all over television at the time, and it was—we all talked about him with Jack when we were out there, and laughed. And we said, “Let’s put him in Jimmy Olsen.” Jack didn’t take Jimmy Olsen that seriously. It was more or less— TJKC: It was just a lark? Did he like doing that strip, or was it just a paycheck, and “They want me to do it”? STEVE: Nothing was ever just a paycheck to him. GARY: The stuff that bugged him, like the motorcyclists, he put that in Jimmy Olsen. I think Jack had to think in terms of, “Am I doing New Gods, Forever People, this saga that I’m writing, or am I

doing Jimmy Olsen, more of a daily journal,” and “let me turn the Jimmy Olsen story into something that either makes me laugh or affects me or something.” STEVE: I think it was the same thing, “How can I make this interesting to me? What story do I want to see, what do I want these characters to do that’s going to entertain me?” If he had his choice, he didn’t want to do other people’s characters. He would have rather been paid to spend the time doing something else, but since this was what they were going to pay him to do, then, “Okay, let me turn it into Jack Kirby’s Jimmy Olsen, into the story that I want to see.” TJKC: So it wasn’t drudgery for him? STEVE: No, no, not at all, I don’t think. It was never— TJKC: Because those books are some of the most fun stuff he did, to me.

known to more than just comics. And you should also be owning—” and then it had to do with ownership. “Let’s do something that you own, without you having to take the time away from how you’re earning a living to do that. What can we do to make Jack Kirby stuff with what we have here?” So the first thing we came up with was, “Well, let’s do a portfolio. You’ve got all this art—”. This was the first time Mark and I had seen it. “You’ve got all this great art here that goes all the way back to when you were a kid and nobody’s seen it.” And it was also the very beginnings of fandom as we know it today. Prior to that, it was all mimeo fanzines, it was all real small. But conventions were starting to come about, there were places to sell this stuff. So we said, “Well, what shall we do?” And Jim Steranko had come out with the History of Comics.

STEVE: We were just trying to figure out how to get Jack’s name out there, because after he left Marvel, it was like—Mark and I both said, “You’re Jack Kirby. You gotta do something to make yourself

TJKC: Gary, you were real involved with this? It was you and Mark and Gary? GARY: Well, Mark and Steve did the book, and I just was there.

STEVE: Neal was back by then. Neal had graduated with a marketing degree from Syracuse. GARY: So that’s when things started to heat up with, “Let’s form a company, let’s do something that lasts, that can give this guy—”. And then, at the time, Jack wasn’t to blame, but Neal was saying, “Let’s let this guy lift his head up off the table every once in a while; what can we do?” TJKC: There’s two big black-and-white posters, a Captain America and a Silver Surfer pencil piece. Do you remember these? I went to a convention in ’77, and a dealer had about a hundred of these things rolled up, which he was selling for 50 cents apiece. I always wondered if those were rip-offs, like somebody just blew them up from sketches.

STEVE: Yeah, I think on that they’d talk over the phone. Carmine’d say, “What are you doing?” Jack would say, “This.” “Okay, can you just send me something so I can see what it is?” And then, yeah, he would do it.

TJKC: The Kirby Unleashed stuff from Communicators Unlimited, how did that come about?

GARY: Jack would have a table and he would have his art on display. At that time it was all those New Gods demo pieces. Nobody had seen those, and those were up on the wall or on easels. And there’s Kirby Unleashed on the table. I was the guard dog for the display copy jumping all around. I took my job very seriously. No one was going to abscond with that.

TJKC: So Neal was back?

TJKC: That’s interesting, I’ve never heard anybody actually say that. I’ve seen several DC cover roughs on typing paper that Jack did. Did he have to submit roughs to Carmine for those covers? Because Carmine was DC’s cover guy in the ’70s.

STEVE: Yeah, I remember seeing stuff that Carmine would doodle out.

STEVE: Yeah, we came down to San Diego to sell it.

STEVE: Yeah, it was me, Mark, Neal, Jack.

GARY: Are people thinking those were just knock-offs, that he just didn’t give a damn about the story? Because I think it was the opposite. Again, he had to do it his way. He wouldn’t do Don Rickles. Don Rickles was almost a cameo. He had to make a Goody Rickels so that it was his own.

GARY: I remember Carmine sending stuff to Jack, too. So I don’t know where those are in the Kirby Archives, but there’s original Infantinos floating around.

GARY: And we got to come out to San Diego for free, we got a room.

Jack really loved that. He loved the size. He said, “This is great, this is great production!” He loved production. “Look at this, this is beautiful! I want to do something like that!” So we said, “Okay, then let’s do Kirby Unleashed and do it that size.” TJKC: Was this part of your job as his assistant, or you did this on the side? Did he pay you separately to do this? Did you get a share of everything he sold? STEVE: No, this was extra. We got books. We got copies of the books that we could sell.

STEVE: It must have been rip-offs, because the only Communicators Unlimited stuff was Kirby Unleashed, the four Gods posters that came in that envelope, and a series of black-and-white prints of those New Gods presentations, with Metron and all that in it. Those were the only official things. And I think at one convention we printed up Demon and Orion sketches from pencils. TJKC: When Stan’s book Origins of Marvel Comics came out, was that one of the times Jack punched 47

KirbyComments Jobs That Never Were by Steve Sherman The first is a cover mock-up for a book that Jack had come up with. I think this was sometime after he had left DC. Jack wanted to do something that wasn’t a comic book, but told a story in graphic form. He also didn’t want to draw it. He wanted to lay it out, but instead of drawings, he wanted to use photographs of models. He had tried to incorporate this in the Spirit World and In the Days of the Mob books. In fact, for the True Divorce book I had shot a series of photos for a story. Anyway, this was a mock-up that I did based on Jack’s title. He came up with Starbaby and with “Still Thriller Spectacular.” That’s about all I can remember about it. The other item, Hell Hound, was a sketch I did for a character that was supposed to follow King Kobra for the First Issue Special comics that Jack was doing for DC. Since he had to come up with a new character for each issue, he was kind enough to allow me to pitch ideas. From my notes, I see that the character was supposed to fight “monsters and other creatures of the night.” I can recall Jack laughing at the drawing, but he was intrigued by the name and the idea, although at some point we must have discussed some major changes, because one of my notes indicates a change to “Hell Hounds.” Shortly after that (like 2 weeks later), Jack left DC and went to Marvel. The third item is a drawing Jack did for an idea I had. I wanted to do a show which featured Godzilla as a human-sized detective, sort of a Humphrey Bogart type who was a private investigator. I thought that it would be funny to have someone in a rubber Godzilla suit walking around and talking in a tough NY accent. This was about 1978, I think. As you can see, Jack did the coat and the hands and the hat. The feet and tail are mine, and the face is mine, with JK fixes. Not exactly the most mind-boggling example of Jack Kirby art, merely a footnote. I also came across a copy of a draft of the Captain Victory and the Lightning Lady script dated April 1976. That would indicate that we had been working on it while Jack was at Marvel, and well before he was approached to do anything for an independent company, I guess. ★ Starbaby TM & ©2005 Jack Kirby Estate. Others ©2005 Steve Sherman and the Jack Kirby Estate.

his hand through a door? STEVE: I don’t think he punched his hand through a door, I think he just—there wasn’t much he could do. Really, I think the defining moment for Jack was the artwork situation. Up until then, he’d pretty much roll with the punches. It bothered him, but what are you going to do? GARY: Any time he would ever say something about being upset about Marvel and how they treated him, it’d always end with, “They’re their characters, so there’s not much I’m going to do about it.” TJKC: In ’75 Jack went back to Marvel. We talked about this a couple of weeks ago, that it was just kind of like one day, “Well, I’m gonna go back to Marvel,” and it was kind of obvious that there just wouldn’t be anything for you to do anymore. So you kind of looked elsewhere. But, from that point on, how often did you guys see the Kirbys? Was it still pretty regular, or just a couple of times a year?

(previous page) Front and back covers for 1971’s Superworld Of Everything. (left and below) Two bootleg Kirby posters, sold in the mid-1970s. Superworld TM & ©2005 Jack Kirby Estate. Captain America, Silver Surfer TM & ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc..

GARY: We kept in touch. STEVE: Very regularly. Yeah, we’d go out there on weekends, because I was good friends with Neal. Neal lived out in Thousand Oaks, so— GARY: Yeah, Steven and Neal did a lot of stuff away from Jack and his house, too, just as friends. And I was getting involved more in TV work, and pretty beat up by Sunday, so I would either go out, or skip a week, or three weeks would go by and we’d go out. But we still stayed in touch and talked to him on the phone all the time. STEVE: That’s when we started working on movie stuff and TV stuff, other ideas outside of comics. So that’s when we did Captain Victory, Silver Star. TJKC: Mike Thibodeaux is downstairs selling what’s supposedly the original Silver Star concept art. [Editor’s Note: See this issue’s back cover!] It doesn’t look like the Silver Star we know; he’s in a red, white, and blue outfit. It’s not a super-finished piece, but it’s in color. Tell me the evolution of the Silver Star thing, because you say we got the Captain Victory dates wrong in the Graphite Edition, and Star Wars was after Captain Victory. STEVE: Yeah, Star Wars was after, because Captain Victory was, like, ’76. Star Wars didn’t come out until ’77. TJKC: There’s something called Kirby Comics, some guy was supposed to finance something. Do you know anything about that? STEVE: I had never heard about that. I mean, I know that on that Star Baby thing I sent you, the JK logo said, “Kirby Comics,” but I did that. And that was ’73, ’72, around there. I never heard of Kirby Comics, I never heard Jack mention it. And it seems kind of weird, because I don’t think he would have gone for that. That was really like something he wouldn’t— GARY: He was very protective of that name. STEVE: He didn’t think “Kirby Comics” was a good name. I think he’d have gone for something like Stupendous Comics or something like that. So I don’t know. I can’t say I’ve heard of it. TJKC: The stuff that Topps published later, like Satan’s Six and the Secret City Saga, Bombast, particularly those ’60s concept drawings, had Jack developed any of that at all? STEVE: Well, he was always working; when he had a spare moment he would do it. TJKC: But you don’t remember specifically seeing that stuff in the early ’70s or anything like that? STEVE: No, no, I don’t remember seeing any of it. GARY: You mean the concept of it? TJKC: Well, you saw the original concept drawings, but anything done with it beyond those original paintings? 49

GARY: No. I think—as Steven used to say, Jack had such a feedthe-family, do-the-job kind of a mentality about this that nothing started to spark up into his head until someone with money had an interest in it. And then, always, too, whatever he said at that moment changed when he got to the drawing board.

TJKC: So that’s when he sat down and drew it? STEVE: As far as I know, because I never saw any artwork when we worked on Captain Victory. TJKC: Because you saw how the book was put together, and there’s obviously two separate, distinct times he was working on it. STEVE: Yeah. And I asked Mike [Royer] too, if he had seen anything, and he said he doesn’t remember or he doesn’t think so. So, as far as I know, he didn’t do any drawings of Captain Victory until after we had written it, because, if he had, we would have used it to try and sell the idea. TJKC: But Silver Star— STEVE: Silver Star came about the same way. After we did that, we started talking about some kind of—we were always talking about TV series or something to go out and pitch, that he came up with. So then we started talking about Silver Star. Jack had always said, one of his concepts was, “If you ever get stuck, what you do is you create your own world, and you can always pull stuff out of there.” Like the Negative Zone or whatever. Somewhere in a Jack Kirby story there’d always be some point where there’s this world unto itself, with all these creatures coming out, which you could always draw from. So we came up with this, we were talking back and forth, and he said, “Well, what about, we get this guy and he creates this planet in his lab, and it’s miniaturized, but he wants to make it big.” From that we started talking about mutants and all that kind of stuff, and then he said, “Oh, how about this character? Silver Star.” And so we pretty much had it all written out. I remember the carousel sequence and all these people that have this power, Darius Drumm, that’s where all that came out of. So we wrote it up, tried to—but again, no artwork. Then it was later that he sat down and drew it. TJKC: So that—and this is jumping back— Superworld thing you guys did. I’ve seen that was just a four-pager, that’s all he did. STEVE: Yeah, because at DC, when we first started, it was like Jack was— GARY: “Whatever you can give us.”

(above) We’re still unsure where this unused Captain Victory cover fits into the development of the character, but “Space Arenas Of Death” was never produced. (next page, top) Beast Rider, which served as the prototype for a 1990s sculpture. (next page, bottom) Jack and Roz at their 50th anniversary. Captain Victory TM & ©2005 Jack Kirby Estate.

TJKC: How did that first Captain Victory story get drawn, then? STEVE: When we wrote the Captain Victory idea for the screenplay, it was originally going to be a science-fiction thing called Lightning Lady, and the basis of the story was the aliens come down to Earth, and they burrow, and they take over the town, and all that. And the Captain Victory character was sort of like a side piece to it. It really didn’t have that much to do with the whole picture, and we didn’t have any art. In order to go around and present it, I said, “We need some kind of artwork, Jack. We need something of what this looks like.” But he just didn’t have time to do it. So all we had was this screenplay outline, and that pretty much sat there until Pacific Comics approached him and said, “We’d like you to do a comic book.”

STEVE: Yeah, “Let’s do it.” Because he wanted to get a whole operation going, and that’s what he thought would happen. The two things that I thought really would have made it were Superworld and Uncle Carmine’s Fat City Comix. TJKC: What was Uncle Carmine’s? Was that going to be an underground? STEVE: Yeah, but a mainstream underground. The thing that I liked about that was, Mark and I were trying to figure out what to do with it, and we said, “You know what? There is no Sunday Comics anymore, really. What if we had, like, a monthly Sunday comics section that they sold at a newsstand?” Because this was the time Rolling Stone came out as a newspaper, and there were other things as a newspaper. So we figured, “You know what? If they sold it next to Rolling Stone and the magazines, we could probably raise readership.” And plus, we were giving these guys

a chance to draw Sunday comics, which every comic book artist in the world would love to do. So as soon as we started talking to people, it was like, Steve Ditko said yes, Harlan Ellison said yes. Everybody, as soon as they heard about it— GARY: It was a great sounding board for everybody’s strip ideas. If you see it in Superworld, when you’re King Features Syndicate, the first thing you do is, it’s already been printed, it’s got a readership. They were hoping that some major would come by and see these ideas that were out there, and everybody got their right to ownership. Jack would be more than happy for people to come and go. That’s what he wanted, he wanted the revolving door of different artists, and just to constantly change. STEVE: And at that time, too, advertising in comics wasn’t like it is today. Mark and I were going, “Well, we can reach a bigger audience if we can get Coca-Cola.” GARY: Because they never advertise in comics. STEVE: Wouldn’t hear of it. TJKC: When you were working on the books, like the Fourth World stuff, did you get tons of mail? Big sacks? STEVE: Yeah. And it was funny, because working at Marvelmania, we had learned sort of where the comic book capitals of America were, just from the amount of coupons and people ordering we would get, we pretty much were able to figure that it was the East Coast, Chicago, Texas, Ohio, California, Florida.

These were where the big jumps in sales were. TJKC: So they were getting distributed well there? GARY: Distributed well, or just the weather made people want to read comics more there. [laughter] TJKC: As for Jack’s relationship with Joe Simon; I’ve heard there could’ve been some friction between them, especially when Mainline was going under. You said something yesterday; can you repeat what you said, because I thought that was really kind of profound. STEVE: Yeah. I mean, Jack loved Joe Simon. In the ’70s—’71, ’72—we went back to the convention in New York, and Jack saw Joe for the first time since they’d moved out to California; they were up in the hotel room laughing and talking. They were great friends. But when you work with somebody for 20 years like they had worked together, I can see where, not out of anger, but just out of frustration—because there was a story he told me about he and Joe Simon. Jack had great respect for Joe, because Joe came from the upper part of New York, I think Rochester, around there. He was tall, he was six-foot-something, and Jack was short. He said when they first got together, Joe would try to intimidate him a little bit, and would just try to push him around. And Jack said one day he just grabbed Joe by the lapels and said, [guttural sound] “This is how it’s gonna be!” And Joe was like, “Okay, Jack.” TJKC: [laughs] I’d never heard that one. STEVE: Now, I don’t know if that

was Jack exaggerating or what, but that was sort of the dynamic that they had. GARY: They were like brothers. I think they would fight. STEVE: I mean, they moved out to Long Island, they bought houses across the street from each other. That’s how close they were. So I don’t think there was much bitterness between them. It was just business. TJKC: Did Jack base any characters on either of you guys? STEVE: No. It wasn’t something that we would have asked him to do. GARY: I think we were too close to the family for him to do that. That was something I think— STEVE: Or we were too boring for him to make characters out of us. [laughs] TJKC: You worked with Jack on that Kobra book. It was King Kobra, and they butchered it. Tell me the deal with that. STEVE: Toward the end DC was doing the First Issue Specials, because they felt that the first issues would sell great, and then they would sort of diminish. So Carmine says, “Well, you know what? Let’s just do first issues!” And Jack said, “Oh, but I really don’t like doing first issues, because once I’ve done it, where am I going?” GARY: It was also draining the characters out of him. STEVE: “I’ve created this character, I’ve created this world and the story, which is tough enough, but I can’t continue it. And I don’t think the fans are going to like that, because if they like him, they want to see more of him.” 51

STEVE: Yeah, yeah. Because he didn’t really give us a sense like, “Boy, these are hard to do,” so I said, “Well, do you want me to come up with something?” And he said, “Yeah, sure, go ahead.” So I came back with this idea, and he said, “Okay, let’s do that.” And Ronin Ro had in his book, where we were at the kitchen table, Jack’s looking at my first draft, and he goes, “Wow, this really sucks.” Not being mean, just he’s Jack Kirby, and he’s going, like, “Well, for me, this sucks. Here’s what we’re gonna do.” And he thought and said, “What would make this better? The Corsican Brothers! Twins, one good and one evil.” And it was like, “Yeah! That really—”. TJKC: So Jack was really pretty well-read. STEVE: Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. He had boxes and boxes of ’50s science-fiction paperbacks in the garage, and pulps. GARY: Every one of them having been read. STEVE: Yeah. GARY: Where he got the time, I don’t know. That’s what he collected. If you could say he was a collector of anything, he collected those science-fiction—Argosy? STEVE: Paperback and the later pulp, I guess what you could call fantasy and science-fiction and Argosy. TJKC: So, you were there when Jack worked on the “Losers” stuff? Do you remember that being a particularly exciting thing for him to work on? STEVE: Yeah, he liked that. He loved that. To him, that was like a bright spot, because he could really get into war stories. TJKC: But you said he extrapolates so much. Were those stories more truthful than a lot of the—? STEVE: I think they were pretty true. GARY: I’m thinking about one story that he told, and that might have been a day that he wanted to entertain me. But he had a lot of true war stories. STEVE: Yeah. Because his stories about boot camp and stuff are hysterical. Here’s this little Jewish guy from Lower East Side Brooklyn suddenly going to—he said Texas. I’ve read that he went to Georgia or somewhere, but he said that he was in Texas. GARY: Big, tall John Wayne kind of guys. (above) Manhunter from First Issue Special #5 (Aug. 1975). (next page) Jack’s first Loser’s page, from Our Fighting Forces #151 (Oct. 1974). (below) Jack is immortalized in plaster, as he gets a “Life Mask” made. Losers, Manhunter TM & ©2005 DC Comics.

GARY: And I think it reminded him of giving Marvel all those characters. STEVE: Yeah, plus, he was churning out characters again. TJKC: So Kobra was meant to be an ongoing book, then? If Jack had stayed at DC, was that a—? STEVE: It might have. Any one of these things might have gone on. TJKC: But was that presented to him as, “Come up with something for another one-shot” kind of deal?

STEVE: A big guy, and he’d look at him and go, [southern accent:] “Where are your horns?” And Jack’d go, “What?” He said, “We heard Jews have horns.” [laughter] One guy said to him, “Kurtzberg! Where y’all from?” Jack said, “Brooklyn.” He’s repeated this a lot of times. And the guy said, “Brooklyn? What’s a ‘Brooklyn?’” [laughter] And there was another story he told; they wanted him to be in the tank corps, and what they had was, these guys who would dig a hole in front of the enemy tank and lay in it, and as the tank would roll over the hole, the guy would pop up behind it and shoot it.

GARY: Because the softest part of the tank was under the belly and the end. STEVE: So in training camp they’d say, “All right, soldiers, we’re going to go training. Now the first guy’s going to do it.” Well, the first guy in the hole, the tank ran over and killed him, squashed him. Jack’s going, like, “This isn’t for me!” So that’s when he became a scout. He figured scout was dangerous too, but at least he wasn’t going to have a tank roll over him! [laughs] GARY: There was another story where they issued him a flamethrower. [laughs] Jack was not the most mechanical of people. That’s why he had a straightback wooden chair; it didn’t take a screwdriver to fix it, it took a doweling hammer or something. And they gave him a flamethrower, and he saw how dangerous these things were; a lot of them blew up. He heard stories, everybody was scaring him in boot camp. So one day a jeep pulls up and he’s got this equipment with him, he puts it in the back of the jeep and the jeep takes off. And his sergeant goes, “Kirby! Where’s your flamethrower?” “Lost it, sergeant!” [laughter] “I can’t trust you with anything!” “No, sir, sergeant, sir!” STEVE: Yeah, don’t forget, this was the beginning of the war, they’re drafting all these guys, trying to process them through, and there’s absolute total chaos, so they’re trying to get these guys through these things, and nobody knows what’s going on. “Okay, you, you, you, and you are going to do this!” GARY: That Navy thing, where they go, “We need six Army guys. Kirby, you and five guys! You’re now Army guys!” “What do we do?” [laughter] “See this flamethrower?” [laughter] STEVE: And he used to laugh about it, too. He said, “Yeah, all the other guys, they ended up—”. Because I guess Joe Simon ended up in the Coast Guard or something like that. They all somehow ended up Stateside doing artwork. Very few of the guys went overseas to fight. We always used to say, “You’re an artist! Why didn’t you just start doing logos and stuff?” “I did what they told me to do.” GARY: And he would hope that they would find out who he was. Jack was always very hopeful that somebody in the Army would know. And we know, in the Army there’s no hope. [laughs] STEVE: There is only one dirty Jack Kirby drawing floating around out there. In the Army, when he was in the hospital for his legs and all, an officer came by and talked to him, and he said, “I’m Jack Kirby. I draw comic books.” The officer was like, “Really? There’s something I’ve always wanted to see; can you draw Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, with the Seven Dwarfs doing Snow White?” [laughter] Jack told him he

didn’t think he could draw that, but the officer was really insistent, and Jack felt he couldn’t say no, so there’s this Kirby drawing sitting around in somebody’s closet somewhere. I hope it doesn’t end up on eBay. [laughter] (below) The second of two concept drawings for Devil Dinosaur, dated May 20, 1977. (The first was shown in TJKC #30.) The concept changed a lot before being published by Marvel. (next page) This “Mighty Magon” animation concept had a cool extra drawing (shown at bottom) on the back of the art. Devil Dinosaur TM & ©2005 Marvel Characters, Inc. Mighty Magon TM & ©2005 Jack Kirby Estate.

TJKC: Of the time you knew him, when did he seem the happiest, the most involved in his work? STEVE: Most of the time. I mean, he really didn’t start to— GARY: Just before he got out of comics and into animation was when he was the most let down, but there wasn’t—it was a fun, happy house. There wasn’t much depression over there. He loved having his grandkids and his kids home. STEVE: He liked having people over. He never really talked about comics unless you asked him. GARY: It was a very private thing to draw those comics, so being excited about his work—he didn’t really show that, because that was what he did at three o’clock in the morning. Maybe he woke Roz up. I wouldn’t. Maybe he did and said, “Look what I did.” But whatever job he was doing—he even loved the Demon, and even Devil Dinosaur, he got a kick out of that. He’d show us Devil Dinosaur, going, “Look at that!” [Kirby laugh] He was still laughing. STEVE: As long as he had his health, as long as he was healthy,

he was fine. Towards the end, there, when he had the throat cancer and that kind of stuff— GARY: He’s the only guy I know that went through chemotherapy and kept all of his hair, though. That’s some strong genes. TJKC: I take it the throat cancer was probably due to the cigar smoking all those years? STEVE: That and the stress. GARY: There was the heart thing. If you’re going to suck on a smoking tube for 50 years of your life, your heart’s going to shrink down to the size of a raisin. I’m sure that never crossed his mind once. STEVE: For the most part, he was a positive, happy guy. TJKC: So you guys were seeing him regularly while he was working at Marvel in the ’70s, doing Devil Dinosaur and all that stuff? GARY: We had to fly up to Fresno for Tracy’s bar mitzvah. It was the armpit of the Angeles National Forest, as Neal called it. And Neal was on the volunteer fire department ambulance emergency, and it was a large American-Indian population. At least, those there at the time were constantly getting in trouble. They had a slight rowdiness problem, and Neal told these great stories. I mean, we’d visit them as family, and with Jack there, and Roz, I don’t think comics are—with me, it’s like, “How’s the movies treating you? How’s TV?” And we’d ask him, “Did you see Star Wars? Did you see Close Encounters? What did you think?” “Good flick! Good flickers!” [laughs] TJKC: Since we’re here in San Diego, give me some good stories about the El Cortez hotel.

STEVE SHERMAN

GARY SHERMAN

GARY: [We saw] Scott Shaw! walking by with peanut butter all over him. TJKC: Scott Shaw! covered himself with peanut butter, head to toe?

And his awards, that was always funny, because he dropped his—I don’t know if it was conscious or unconscious, but he broke his awards a lot. It got dropped at the airport, or going back to the hotel. What’s the one with the caveman? STEVE: The Alley Award. GARY: The Alley Oop? No face, because he dropped it. [John laughs] The award with the lightning bolt in it, the Shazam Award? The lightning bolt is out, it was on the side.

GARY: Crunchy peanut butter, and went on stage as—he was doing an underground comic called the Turd, and that’s who he was, he was the Turd. [laughter] STEVE: They said, “Ladies and gentlemen, Scott Shaw! is the Turd,” and he walked out. GARY: And there was a trail of peanut butter leading from his hotel room through the halls. [laughter] I don’t think San Diego was really ready for comic book collectors at the time. It was the ’70s, so people were doing odd things. I remember Jack and Roz by the pool, and people trying to impress them out there. I think that was one of the reasons they threw the shark repellent in the pool. STEVE: There was a swimming pool by the tower, and then there were these rooms all around the swimming pool. The convention would give Jack one of the pool rooms, and then, at night, in the summer, everybody would be out on those patios, in the pool. GARY: And the whole convention could fit! STEVE: Yeah, they could fit the whole convention there. It was just wild. Fireworks in one room, there’d be fireworks in the other room, and Jack would just be sitting there. People would come up and he would just sit and talk. GARY: Everyone was a big Jack fan, wanting to shake his hand. Roz was there to protect

him from that stuff. I mean, people—that was the thing. The people with the harebrained ideas who jumped in front of him and said, “I can raise capital, we can build these things, come with me!” Jack would never disappoint them. Roz was the one who would say, “That’s enough.” It’s time to eat, or go rest, and stuff. The El Cortez had the oddest elevator system. Certain floors on one elevator, and then you’d have to get off, and get to the other floors on another elevator. And the Kirbys, being from New York, I think it’s in your blood to complain about things. So the constant complaining was the fun part of the convention. “You’d think these people would think of a single elevator!” STEVE: And there was no place to eat except the hotel, because it’s up there on that hill, and there’s nothing around it. You’d go to the coffee shop and it would just be full of.... GARY: Conventioneers. People would give Jack the craziest gifts. There was one convention here that was hosted by the Japanese comic magazine people, almost? They threw all the parties one year, it was all honoring them. Some fan gave Jack the largest one of those bamboo bottles of sake I’ve ever seen. It was barrel-weaved or whatever. Real official, ancient-style. They have it somewhere. The last time I was at the house, there it was. So I know he didn’t drink that much, but he had a big old bottle of sake ready for you! [John laughs]

STEVE: Also, at the end, he got to travel. I mean, he went to Italy, they flew him out there and they honored him and he thought that was great. He got to Europe and all that, so that was really exciting. He got a chance to travel. GARY: Yeah, and when he got into animation, they were very happy. STEVE: Yeah! Very happy. GARY: Because that was his main worry, his health insurance and pension, which he never got in comics. When he left comics, though, he started to call the comic book guy “Jack Kirby,” he was in third person. He would say, “Jack Kirby’s not drawing anymore.” Like that part of his life was over with, so he named it something. TJKC: Did he miss it at all? STEVE: No. TJKC: He was perfectly happy to retire and spend his days...? STEVE: Yeah. I think he was glad he’d done it, in his own mind, and he had done enough to satisfy himself at it. I mean, prior to that he felt he still had stuff to do, but I think he finally reached the point where, “There it is. I’ve done it, and I don’t have to do it anymore.” GARY: And I think the ideas—not that they ran out, he just sort of slowly turned the faucet off. STEVE: Which was kind of surprising to me, because I would think that was something you couldn’t turn off. GARY: But he was the kind of guy that could. TJKC: Well, guys, that’s everything. Thanks for taking time to talk. ★ 55

Oops!

An Apology To The Kirby by John Morrow, editor of The Jack Kirby Collector magazine

(these two pages) As long as we’re spotlighting inkers in this issues’ galleries, here’s Jack’s two pages from the 1986 DC benefit comic Heroes For Hunger. Inks by Al Milgrom.

(Editor’s Note: The following piece ran in slightly edited form in the 2004 Comicon International: San Diego program book. But I figured, what the heck? I got one of those furshlugginer Kirby Awards, so if I’ve gotta be featured somehow, why not run this account of what got me into doing this magazine in the first place?) 004 marked the 10th anniversary of Jack Kirby’s passing, and of the birth of my company, TwoMorrows Publishing. But something’s been eating away at me for over a decade, and it’s time to come clean. I owe a big “I’m sorry” to a not-soelite group that I’ve affectionately dubbed “The Kirby Crowd.”

Maybe you’re among them—one of the multitude of people who’ve had their lives changed by a short, graying, Lower-EastSide-of-New-York-tough-but-heart-as-big-as-Texas-and-imaginationas-big-as-the-universe artist named Jack Kirby. (Sure, that’s probably the longest hyphenated description ever used in print, but Kirby never did anything in a small way, so...) This goes out to the tens of thousands—perhaps hundreds of thousands—who had the privilege of meeting The King at a convention. (If you don’t know why Kirby was nicknamed “The King,” open virtually any comic from the last half-century, and you’ll probably encounter some kind of graphic or storytelling innovation that he was responsible for.) After a lifetime of failed attempts to get to San Diego to meet him, I finally finagled a trip to the West Coast in 1991, and had one afternoon free to attend Comicon International. While it wasn’t even half the size it is now, Comicon was still quite overwhelming, so after learning where Kirby would be appearing, I swooped there like a vulture, not wanting to miss my one opportunity. Bad news: Jack wouldn’t be back until late-afternoon, and I had to leave in a couple of hours. So I wandered the hall aimlessly, checking back every few minutes until my time was up. Just as I was heading for the exit feeling dejected, a PA announcer proclaimed that Kirby Was There! I scampered back to find a large crowd already gathered, blocking my last chance to meet my favorite comic book artist. (Here’s where the apology comes in.) I’d always been pretty shy and introverted, and my proper Southern upbringing had stressed the importance of good manners. But at that moment, desperation was setting in, and I uncharacteristically dove straight ahead, not-so-politely squeezing through the seven-deep sea of fans, and elbowing my way to the front. It was probably the first time I’d ever asserted myself that aggressively, and I could feel the cold stares of the people I cut in front of, burning holes in the back of my neck. As Jack worked the Kirby Crowd, telling his WWII stories, he’d ask people where they were from, and what they did for a living. When he got to me, we shook hands, and I stammered out some accolade that he’d undoubtedly heard a million times before. But he seemed genuinely touched when I told him how many times I’d tried to meet him, to no avail. Our conversation lasted all of about two minutes, and then guilt finally overwhelmed me, as I stepped aside to let the people behind me have their moment of glory with Jack. (Kirby, being the gracious host I’d always heard he was, seemed willing to talk to me all afternoon if I’d let him, despite all the others who were waiting for his attention.) I’d like to think that Jack knew our meeting would result in something special coming from this wide-eyed fanboy who had rudely clawed his way to the front.

Crowd But that day, neither of us had a clue how this encounter would impact both my life, and that of the legacy Jack would leave behind a couple of years later. (I’d overheard Jack tell a fellow professional the name of the street he lived on in Thousand Oaks, CA, and after the con, during my brief visit to Los Angeles, I stopped in at the Beverly Hills Library to look the street number up in the phone book. Armed with the exact address, I drove by, but didn’t have the nerve to knock unannounced. Guess I’d never make it as a professional stalker...) Fast-forward to February 1994. I’d pretty much gotten out of comics, but an old friend knew I’d always admired Kirby’s work, and when Jack’s obituary appeared in USA Today, my buddy faxed it to me. I was stunned, shocked, and saddened by the news, but grateful I’d had my one chance to meet him, if only briefly. So I spent that Spring digging out the few Kirby comics I’d saved, reexperiencing that old Jack Magic, and finally deciding—perhaps subconsciously in penance for my actions in San Diego—that the world needed a humble, 16-page Xeroxed newsletter devoted to the life and career of one Jack Kirby. So that’s how Jack changed my life. I never had aspirations to be a publisher, but that little newsletter, which debuted in September 1994, started a chain reaction of events that have irrevocably altered the course of my existence. I’ve poured countless thousands of hours into The Jack Kirby Collector, which has now morphed into a whopping 80-page quarterly tabloid magazine, chock full of Kirby art, interviews with his family and contemporaries, and reminisces and recollections from other members of the Kirby Crowd. For a decade, Kirby fans have worked tirelessly with me to keep Jack’s memory alive through the mag’s pages, and its success spawned relationships and opportunities that have led me to publish an entire line of publications about the comics medium and its creators. I look forward to the San Diego Con ness to step aside (and not punch me out!) resulted all year, with its annual Kirby Tribute Panel (hosted in an ongoing tribute to the man and his legacy. by Mark Evanier, and featuring the top names in To make amends, I promise that—like every comics, waxing philosophic on all things Kirby). year for the last decade—for four days each But my secret shame comes from the thousands of Summer, the TwoMorrows Publishing booth will be unsuspecting friends and acquaintances I’ve acquired a gathering place for the San Diego while producing TJKC. Kirby Crowd, much like the one I Undoubtedly, some of weaseled my way through in 1991. them were among that It’s a place where we can all congreKirby Crowd I fought my gate to catch up on each others way through back in 1991. lives, and pay our respects to the If you were one of the peoman whose life and work has meant ple I shoved out of the JOHN MORROW so much to us, and to the comics way, I hope you’ll accept industry. If you met Jack, or if you my apologies for being so just want to share your admiration ill-mannered. Your willing-

of him, I invite you to stop by and chat. Jack may not physically be here any longer, but his spirit permeates every San Diego Con, and lives on in every member of the Kirby Crowd... ...especially the ones that didn’t make it to the front of the line because of guys like me. ★ (When I met Jack at Comicon in 1991, I came across an unused cover layout he had done, on 8 1⁄2" x 11" typing paper, for a Forever People issue—it featured the main characters fairly small, which I assume is why DC rejected it. It was for sale for $50, but when I came back to buy it, it was gone. If anyone out there has it, I’d really appreciate it if they would send in a xerox or scan of it, even if they don’t want it published. It’s a piece I’d really love to see again for sentimental reasons.) 57

Public Domain Theatre

A Little Romance

e’re back with our new ongoing TJKC feature re-presenting never-before-reprinted, public domain Kirby stories. And since this issue is a real love-fest about Jack and Roz, what better to show than a classic Simon & Kirby romance story? This one’s from Young Romance #3 (Jan. 1948), presented here for the first time since it initially

saw print, lovingly bleached and restored for us by Chris Fama. And just for fun, take a minute to compare Jack’s dapper leading men and gorgeous women—and their interpersonal conflicts—between this 1940s tale, and the 1970 pencils presented here from Kirby’s neverpublished True Divorce Cases book. Don’t you just love it? ★

1 ST SERIES BACK ISSUES!

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Obscura

Barry Forshaw A regular column focusing on Kirby’s least known work, by Barry Forshaw

hen I asked Kirby Collector publisher John Morrow why the magazine concentrated so heavily on the King’s ’60s and ’70s Marvel and DC work to the neglect of his wonderful ’50s period, he replied bluntly “Why don’t you write something yourself?” (Gary Carter said a similar thing to me when I noted that Comic Book Marketplace ran virtually nothing on the immediately post-code ACG line—it obviously pays to nag publishers and editors.) But presumably TJKC readers don’t necessarily agree with me about this golden period—I have closer relationship with Kirby’s Challengers of the Unknown than his New Gods iconography, unlike (I suspect) most readers of this magazine. Ah, if only John Morrow could come up with Kirby pencils for that era—rather than the cornucopia of ’70s work—how I’d love to see Kirby pencils for The Challs, before Wally Wood’s exquisite inks worked their magic! (As a Liverpool schoolboy, I recognized only Wood’s inks, and thought this was a Wood book—who knew that Kirby was the onlie begetter?) However, this issue’s column is not about the Challs, but takes loving looks at Kirby’s other accomplished work of that period and slightly earlier. Try to get your head around this. A bizarre blue shark, its body crisscrossed with throbbing purple veins. On its head, what looks like a large tumorous growth that is actually a second brain. Oh, yes: this brain (the result of exposure to A-bomb radioactivity) has made the shark super-intelligent; it knows how to tempt human beings by cunningly flashing a box of ancient coins it has salvaged. Subsequently, it snacks on the males, but stores the females (who have an unfortunate habit of dying when they lose their breathing apparatuses) in an undersea collection, along with knick-knacks like binoculars, ships’ steering wheels, etc. Got all that? Now imagine this is a 1950s horror story. Not only that—a 1950s horror story narrated by the shark itself! This outlandish scenario is the basis of one of Jack Kirby’s strangest tales for the horror comic he created for Prize with Joe Simon, Black Magic. Issue #33 features a story under the groan-inducing title “Lone Shark.” This is a curious tale, not least for its truly macabre visuals, such as the mangled female victim of the shark, anchored in place by a few rocks in the chatty shark’s sub-aquatic collection. Kirby vainly tried to maintain that his horror work was never that grotesque or extreme (like many others—Jack Davis, et al, Kirby was clearly embarrassed by his work in an era that brought down the wrath

The stories from Tales of the Unexpected #23 and 24 (shown at top) haven’t been reprinted, nor has “Lone Shark” from Black Magic #33 (below). But find a copy of DC’s 1970s Black Magic #3 (above) for the others!

of many self-styled moral guardians). Stan Lee even told this writer that he didn’t remember doing too much horror work—even though his frequently inventive macabre writing graced even more comic books in that era than the less-productive EC Comics. In fact, Kirby was wrong—there are several deliciously nasty tales in the pages of Black Magic (and with Kirby’s frequently glorious macabre style, why shouldn’t there be?), not least this odd offering—and, as the book appeared fairly late in the horror boom, i.e., in 1954 (just before the Comics Code emasculated the horror comics genre), its more unbuttoned nature may be a manifestation of the final fling mentality also apparent in many of the more grisly “last gasp” efforts from EC. “Lone Shark” is an exotic flower of Kirby’s horror work—and the sudden shift of narrator from the shark as it’s captured to its human captors is well handled, as is the final twist (spoiler: the experimental removal of what the marine biologists think is a tumor, but which is actually a secondary brain, will turn the murderous hyper-intelligent shark into a moron). The second piece, “This Time You’ll Die,” is a strong piece by the underrated Bernard Baily (note: no ‘e’ in Baily—as well as being underrated, he’s usually misspelt). And if the rest of the issue is workaday, this is still one of the most collectable issues of Simon & Kirby’s Black Magic. Are you one of those who regard DC’s post-code SF and mystery books as uninspired, anodyne work that shows the company marking time before the glorious super-hero revival spearheaded by Julie Schwartz’s Flash? It’s hard to change the minds of those who feel this way—not least because there are so many books that seem to fulfill all those negative prejudices. But isn’t it worth seeking out the good—in just about everything? DC’s Tales of the Unexpected #23 (1958) is worth excavating. Bill Ely’s “The Invitation from Mars” is diverting enough, even if Ely’s SF designs are more conventional than JK’s (as the cover story in this issue will prove with considerable panache). Ditto Jim Mooney’s “The Atomic Sled”—diverting if unexceptional. And George Roussos’ “Who Am I?” is negligible. But the last piece, “The Giants from Outer Space” (cover illustrated by Ruben Moreira), is Kirby at his late-’50s best: The splash panel sets the stage: A titanic blue scoop rips a whole block out of a city as horrified onlookers in a plane talk about the planet being wiped out. But this vision only hints at the surrealistic delights to follow (Magritte and Dali given a run for their money by The King!): a massive pink teardrop transforms a forest from green to red; a giant hose scoops up tons of sand from a desert, and (as per the cover), a giant eyedropper swallows a lake, swimmers and all. The culprits are the eponymous giant aliens, and JK renders these with his usual casual skill—and (as so often) the bizarre faces, albeit simply drawn, look unlike any other example of the millions of creatures Kirby created. The story itself is actually absurd, but the design of such panels as the transformed forest transcends the limitations of the tale. Note, too, the alternative view of the giant city scoop Kirby gives us apart from the splash panel—so protean was his imagination that both are

equally impressive. Perhaps the issue isn’t as collectable as some of the other Kirby ’50s books with work by such masters as Nick Cardy (at his best in the pre-super-hero late ’50s), but ToftU #23 is generally available at not-too-horrendous prices. Proof that Kirby was considered a reliable regular at DC (before the souring of relations with editor Jack Schiff over the Sky Masters strip made him persona non grata) is the fact that he’s also to be found in the very next issue of Tales of the Unexpected, #24. And this is a memorable tale—undoubtedly the most absurd (but, for all that, enjoyable) piece he created for the company. A rather over-busy cover by the otherwise talented Lou Cameron graces #24 (“Jungle Boy of Jupiter”), and that’s the issue’s final story, also illustrated in characteristically quirky Cameron style (his bizarre alien creatures were often the equal of Kirby’s, such as a purple-spotted, elephant like-monster with a black lion’s mane); unexciting pieces by Jim Mooney and Sheldon Moldoff take up the rest of the issue. But it’s Kirby’s book—apart from a nice full-page ad for the first issue of Challengers of the Unknown, his contribution, “The Two-Dimension Man” is, frankly, ludicrous— and Kirby’s tongue-in-cheek art seems fully aware of that fact. For all that, the concept is outrageously inventive: the protagonist is shown a method of saving millions in freight costs— steer can be rendered two-dimensional by a powder, with the proviso that they need a remedy within six hours or dehydration will kill them. The panel in which the railway executive hero is shown how cattle can be “stacked” like so many magazines, is hilarious— and when the hero (inevitably) ends up in twodimensional state (after drinking the powder in his

tea!), absurdity is never far away— i.e., the hero is blown away by every stray wind like a sheet of paper. But Kirby’s gloriously bizarre art makes sure all this is great fun—and the hero even has elements of a later Kirby character, Reed Richards. The science may be implausible, but the entertainment value here is considerable. I’ve been accused of airily pronouncing in these columns “this Kirby item can be obtained without breaking the bank” (see earlier), when some of the books I’ve boosted have (unbeknownst to me) become “hen’s teeth” items. If that’s the case, apologies for whetting appetites. I know I bought most of these books some time ago, but I try to keep up with rising prices (at least as they affect Silver Age material). In any case, let’s talk about a book that I know is affordable—mainly because it’s the first Bronze Age item I’ve covered. How come? Well, it’s actually a Silver Age item—and a reprint of some highly cherishable material. In fact, the DC reprints of selected items for Simon & Kirby’s wonderfully quirky work for Prize’s Black Magic (as mentioned above) filled seven unmissable DC issues, and should be in every Kirbyite’s collection, even if you possess the original books: the re-coloring by DC is often done with real skill. There is, however, a note of caution to be sounded. While these books appeared when Kirby was riding high in his brief ’70s Indian Summer at DC, an opportunity was missed: instead of reprinting every S&K-drawn Black Magic tale, the reprints are rounded out with several low-inspiration tales by other hands, which are, frankly, a waste of space. Too much to hope for a DC Archive edition that just reprints the S&K tales.... In the meantime, we have DC’s Black Magic, issue #3. Regrettably, the cover is not a reprint of a Kirby cover, but a new commission from Jerry Grandenetti, which is serviceable enough. But the contents! Vintage S&K material from the Prize BM issues, Vol. 2, #9 and #12, good enough to forgive the indifferent non-S&K material that completes the issue. “Nasty Little Man” (from BM V2/#9) has a familiar Kirby

motif: the malevolent leprechaun figure. Three hobos are riding on a freight train, when they accidentally disturb a malevolent dwarf of a man (who, apart from his grotesque features, conforms to the classic image of the leprechaun: jaunty hat, ’oirish’ accent). One of the tramps is called the Professor, more educated and eloquent than the others, and asks for proof when the snarling creature claims to be one of the supernaturally gifted “little people”; Proof ensues (in the form of diamonds), then a fight ensues, in which the leprechaun is murdered... perhaps. But not before swearing death to the trio. And that follows soon. The frantic escape from the lethal mite is handled with typically Kirbyesque gusto, and there’s a nice panel—just one—showing what appears to be the creature’s real face—a grinning monstrosity. As the tramps die one by one, a grisly fate awaits the one survivor. This is typical S&K fare from the BM days—whimsical, bizarre, and avoiding real horror (although that makes some sterling appearances in the series—despite Kirby’s claims—as discussed earlier— that there’s nothing really horrific in the series; like many who worked in the great horror period of the ’50s, Kirby was always embarrassed by his contribution). The next tale, “The Angel of Death,” has a splash panel showing the monstrous, mansized prehistoric insect that turns out to be the death-dealing creature of the title (which begins by suggesting that the real angel of death is visiting a small French town and decimating the inhabitants). Actually, this is practically the only time we see the titular monster (apart from something nasty tipped out of a sack later in the story). The tale itself is a character piece, delineated in that satisfyingly sketchy fashion that was the Kirby trademark of the period, with the layout of each panel having either great dynamism or a rough elegance. Perhaps this period will be an acquired taste for those weaned on (say) Sinnott-inked Kirby for Marvel, but it’s worth the effort. This is the very work that DC editors felt did not conform to the cleaner house style that reigned in the ’50s and the ’60s—and now looks like an echo of a glorious period of extremely personal comics illustration. ★ (Barry Forshaw is editor of Crime Time magazine and lives in London, England.) 65

Adam M c Govern Know of some Kirby-inspired work that should be covered here? Send to:

As A Genre

Adam McGovern PO Box 257 Mt. Tabor, NJ 07878

All art this page and next from Tributo al Re or the Treviso, Italy Kirby tribute art exhibit. (Artists as marked or Renato Stevanato [this page] and Stefano Pavan [inset, next page].)

A regular feature examining Kirby-inspired work, by Adam McGovern

THE UNCROWNED KING OF ITALY More of Kirby’s Mediterranean Conquests resented here are English-language excerpts of two features from the Italian Kirby book Tributo al Re (Tribute to the King); one is an interview conducted by

Americans originated the art form—Siegel & Shuster were its Lumiere Brothers, Kirby was its Cecil B. DeMille and Eisner was its D.W. Griffith. But it’s not like Jews have any special knack for the form. Even from the start, some of American comics’ greatest talents have been gentiles, from Bill Everett to Steve Ditko and beyond. And today, just as there are major comics creators on practically every continent, even the greats of America are from families all over the world, including Kyle Baker (African-American), Lynda Barry (Philippine-American) and Los Bros. Hernandez (Mexican-American). PRIARONE: Being Jewish yourself, where do you think Kirby’s heritage can be seen? Which works of his are more Jewish? McGOVERN: It’s been said that the Fourth World was Kirby’s most personal work, so it’s no surprise that it’s his most explicitly Jewish too. Yes, he set out to envision the kind of modern mythology that would arise from a society that had TVs and computers instead of horses and swords, but there’s a strong specific strain of mutant Judaica throughout the Fourth World books, from Highfather’s Biblical patriarch look, to Scott Free’s Moses-like abandonment, to the subordinate but feisty female heroines. I think of the Fourth World cycle as the national epic of the rootless cosmopolitan. And considered that way, its hurried narrative and eternal unfinished-ness make the most sense.

(next page, bottom) Kirby's Etrigan the Demon and Priarone's own hellish hero Sheovan battle for the King's attention in this unpublished extra from Tributo al Re. (Art by Alessio Baldi; Etrigan TM and ©2005 DC Comics; Sheovan TM and ©2005 Stefano Priarone)

e-mail between Italian comics scripter and pop-culture critic Stefano Priarone and yours truly, and the other is a brief virtual visit to a modern Kirby monument in the historic city of Pisa. For more information on the book please see last issue’s “Kirby as a Genre” column or log on to www.comicus.it/marcorizzo/kirby/kirby.htm. Jacob Kurtzberg of the Lower East Side by Stefano Priarone; edited by Adam McGovern STEFANO PRIARONE: According to Italian comics writer Alfredo Castelli, the best American comics creators are Jewish; do you agree? ADAM McGOVERN: There’s no denying that Jewish

PRIARONE: What was the relationship between Kirby and God? It’s curious that The Eternals is a pretty atheist series (“the gods are just aliens”). McGOVERN: Kirby’s irreverence goes back farther than The Eternals; he explicitly saw the original Galactus/ Silver Surfer conflict as a parable of Humankind asserting its independence of thought and action from a deity. But the God of the Old Testament is a contractual one; he sets conditions and bargains with his “chosen people,” and

disputation both within the faith and between Jews and the broader societies they’re part of has been a long tradition. Kirby went to Synagogue throughout his life, and I’d bet he saw his comics’ questionings of the nature of faith as part of being an observant Jew. PRIARONE: Who created the Marvel Universe—Kirby? Lee? Both? McGOVERN: Both. Modern Marvel revived the entire industry, and Lee couldn’t have done that by himself, without Kirby’s input and imagery to bring the books to life, but apparently Kirby couldn’t have done it by himself either (or with anyone but Lee), since with Joe Simon he failed to revive the industry in the mid1950s. In later years Lee would take too much credit, which made Kirby claim too much in retaliation, but both men were essential to the “Marvel miracle.” PRIARONE: Do you think Kirby’s career would have been different had he stayed at Marvel? McGOVERN: I don’t think he would have produced work that’s remembered as fondly now as the Fourth World, Kamandi, etc., are. Kirby was envisioning an era of undisturbed indie exploration that he himself barely lived to see come about; there was no existing company at the time where he

could have brought his dreams to full fruition. But DC’s lesser concern with “continuity” in that era provided a freer terrain for him to, in the parlance of the times, do his own thing—everything wasn’t yet as interconnected as all mainstream comics are now and

Marvel’s already were then, so it was easier to do a stand-alone epic. PRIARONE: Kirby and Eisner: differences and similarities. McGOVERN: It isn’t so much a matter of comparison and contrast as complementary contributions: Kirby perfected the artform’s vocabulary and Eisner perfected its grammar; we owe the way comics look to Kirby and the way they tell stories to Eisner.

Towering Achievement The Jack Kirby Comics Library in Pisa by Francesco Farru; translated by Carlo Del Grande; edited by Adam McGovern Jack Kirby is surely the foreign author who left the biggest mark on Italy. An easy-torecognize mark in many Italian artists’ and writers’ works, and, above all, in the hearts of comics fans fallen in love with his art and characters. Kirby’s importance for Italy is also shown in the shadow of another landmark, Pisa’s Tower. Here, in the center of this Tuscan city, Kirby’s name isn’t just known by a few comics readers. Because Kirby has come to a kind of second home here. Thanks to a number of city associations, the historic Leopolda railway station (created by Grand Duke Leopoldo the 2nd in the 1800s) has been recovered and transformed into a huge multimedia and cultural center— with a remarkable comics area named for the King. In the evocative setting of the Leopolda, a well-stocked comics library has found a home for the past three years. A comics library dedicated to our Jack “King” Kirby. And it’s thanks to the “Gruppo Dentro” that this place exists. The Gruppo is an association born in Pisa in 1990 and composed of creators from several important professional comics and fanzines. Following the cultural ferment in the ’90s in Pisa, Gruppo Dentro was able to create an important physical space dedicated to comics. A place that makes people in Pisa discover the world of comics and pays homage to the King’s art. I spoke with Gaetano Spagnuolo, creator of Gruppo Dentro and director of the comics library. My first question was: “Why Kirby?”

“When we were planning to create a comics library we thought about dedicating it to one of three major creators: Magnus [Roberto Raviola], Bonvi [Franco Bonvicini] or Kirby—three masters who marked Italian and international comicdom and who are linked to beloved characters in Italy. In the end, Kirby won for several reasons: because he created more internationally known characters; because maybe he was closer to children (the comics library rises near an all-ages gaming center and we all know how important it is to try and make new generations love comics); and, last but not least, because this was one more way to declare his role as comics’ King. It’s important not to forget that Kirby has been, more than anyone else, the most creative comics author in the world; the only one who gave birth to hundreds of characters and didn’t benefit very much, at least economically, from his work. Dedicating a comics library to him was a way to thank him for giving us stories and characters that still makes us dream.” There are only a few comics libraries in Italy, and we are happy that one of them is proudly dedicated to our Jack. He never came to Pisa, but we’re sure that he would have been glad to walk the platforms of the old Leopolda Station. ★

(Adam McGovern isn’t Italian, but he loves to eat spaghetti, except when he smears marinara sauce on his Kirby comics. That’s when the linguine hits the fan...)

Gallery 2

Inking By Twilight

ifteen years or so after Joe Sinnott inked the “Captain America” episode for Tales of Suspense #93, Kirby’s art had undergone many changes. One commentator—I can’t remember whom—wrote that he saw Kirby’s art from the mid-’70s on as “a caricature of itself.” True? Perhaps at times; and perhaps this meant that as time went on, Kirby’s art became less and less “accessible” to non-Kirby enthusiasts. But for Kirby lovers, there was still lots of great art. In his twilight years, many different inkers got to embellish the King’s output. Here, in all

by Shane Foley

examples bar one, we get to compare the different approaches of some of them. Along with new material, Phantom Force #1 (Dec. 1993) included a previously drawn (apparently from the late ’70s) but unused sequence using Bruce Lee as the hero. Below is a Bruce Lee page that did not make it into the comic. The many inkers who tackled that issue of Phantom Force approached the pencils in different ways. Some were as faithful as possible while others made huge corrective and stylistic changes. How would you approach this piece?

(page 69) When master Filipino inker Alfredo Alcala took ink to Kirby’s work he seemed to take the same approach as Wally Wood had done 25 years earlier—preserving little more than the outline and imposing his own style on it. Notice how Alcala has totally ignored Kirby’s blacks and substituted his own, equally unique rendition of shadows and clothing. The result is a great hybrid of two masters. This is page 14 of Destroyer Duck #2 (Jan. 1983). (page 70) In stark contrast was the approach of Mike Royer, who was both criticized and hailed for his dedication to ink Kirby as faithfully as possible. Silver Star #4, page 14 (Aug. 1983) is a beauty—a page that showed the Kirby power of old was still burning. (page 71) Super Powers Vol. 1 #5 (Nov. 1984) saw Kirby depicting DCs regular heroes together with some of his New Gods stars. Kirby seemed to be enjoying revisiting his enigmatic Metron creation in this issue, as on this page (10) when we see Metron meeting Superman. As inker for this issue and Volume 2, Greg Theakston worked hard to be both faithful to Kirby’s intention on the one hand while correcting many of the weaknesses that increasingly appeared on the other. (page 72) Compare Kirby’s pencils on this pin-up page with Mike Thibodeaux’s faithful inks. Pages like these show that right to the end Kirby’s imagination was as powerful and wondrous as ever. From Captain Victory Special #1 (Oct. 1983). (page 73) Terry Austin didn’t get the chance to ink many Kirby pieces. This page from Satan’s Six #1 (April 1993) is one of the few. Here are Kirby’s (again, apparently late 1970s) pencils and Austin’s restrained yet enhancing inks for comparison. (page 74) Acting as a bridge between the original New Gods #11 and the Hunger Dogs Graphic Novel, ‘Even Gods Must Die’, was presented in the 1984 New Gods Baxter series #6. Convoluted circumstances with Hunger Dogs had meant that this episode was produced last and it contains some of Kirby’s poorest (and latest) work. Here though is one of the stronger pages from the story—page 15. Clear action— an attribute that Kirby never lost— combine with convincing figure work and great spotting of blacks. Minimal band-aid work was required from inker D.Bruce Berry on this page. ★ 68

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Edited by ROY THOMAS The greatest ’zine of the ’60s is back, all-new, and focused on Golden & Silver Age comics and creators with articles, interviews, unseen art, plus FCA, Mr. Monster, and more!

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AE #8: (100 pgs.) Bio of WALLY WOOD, ADKINS & PEARSON intvs., KUBERT intv., FCA w/ BECK, SWAYZE, & ORDWAY, MR. MONSTER, WOOD & KUBERT covers, more! $8 US

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Covers by WRIGHTSON & MARC SWAYZE, WRIGHTSON on his ’70s FRANKENSTEIN, art by KALUTA, BAILY, MANEELY, PLOOG, KUBERT, BRUNNER, COWAN, BORING, OKSNER, TUSKA, CRANDALL, SUTTON, and others! Plus FCA #100, ALEX TOTH, MICHAEL T. GILBERT—and more! Edited by ROY THOMAS.

Covers by FASTNER & LARSON and ERNIE SCHROEDER, a celebration of DON HECK, WERNER ROTH, and PAUL REINMAN, rare art by KIRBY, DITKO, AYERS, Hillman & Ziff-Davis remembered by SCHROEDER, HERB ROGOFF, and WALTER LITTMAN, FCA, ALEX TOTH, & more! Edited by ROY THOMAS.

Flip covers by TUSKA and STEVENS, yuletide art by SINNOTT, BRUNNER, CARDY, TOTH, NODELL, and others, interviews with Golden Age artists TOM GILL (Lone Ranger) and MORRIS WEISS, exploring 1960s Mexican comics, FCA, MR. MONSTER, ALEX TOTH, & more! Edited by ROY THOMAS.

Interviews with JOE KUBERT, IRWIN HASEN, MURPHY ANDERSON, JERRY ORDWAY, 1940s Atom writer ARTHUR ADLER, art by TOTH, SEKOWSKY, HASEN, PEDDY, MACHLAN, BUCKLER, OKSNER, INFANTINO, FCA, MR. MONSTER, cover by ORDWAY, & more! Edited by ROY THOMAS.

Interviews with Golden Age Sandman artist CREIG FLESSEL and 1940s creator BERT CHRISTMAN, MICHAEL CHABON on researching his Pulitzer-winning novel Kavalier & Clay, art by EISNER, KANE, KIRBY, & AYERS, FCA, MR. MONSTER, ALEX TOTH, & more! Edited by ROY THOMAS.

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AE #16: (108 pgs.) COLAN, BUSCEMA, ROMITA, SEVERIN interviews, ALEX ROSS on Shazam!, OTTO & JACK BINDER, KURTZMAN, new ROSS & FRADON/SEVERIN covers, more! $8 US

AE #24: (108 pgs.) NEW X-MEN intvs. with STAN LEE, COCKRUM, CLAREMONT, WEIN, DRAKE, SHOOTER, THOMAS, MORT MESKIN profiled, FCA, covers by COCKRUM & MESKIN! $8 US

ALTER EGO #46

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The VERY BEST of the 1960s-70s ALTER EGO! EVERETT/SEVERIN cover, classic 1969 BILL EVERETT interview, art by BURGOS, GUSTAVSON, SIMON & KIRBY, and others, 1960s gems by DITKO & E. NELSON BRIDWELL, FCA, TOTH, & more! Edited by ROY THOMAS.

MATT BAKER, Golden Age cheesecake artist of PHANTOM LADY, plus art from AL FELDSTEIN, VINCE COLLETTA, ARTHUR PEDDY, JACK KAMEN & others, FCA, BILL SCHELLY talks to BUD PLANT, MR. MONSTER, ALEX TOTH, and more! Edited by ROY THOMAS.

The late WILL EISNER discusses ’40s Quality Comics with art by FINE, CRANDALL, COLE, & CARDY! EISNER tributes by STAN LEE, GENE COLAN, & others! ’40s Quality artist VERN HENKEL interviewed, FCA, MR. MONSTER, TOTH, & more! Edited by ROY THOMAS.

Interview with CARL BURGOS’ daughter! Unused 1941 cover layouts by BURGOS and other Timely titans! The 1957 Atlas Implosion, MANNY STALLMAN, and the BLUE FLAME! Also, FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT and MR. MONSTER and more! Edited by ROY THOMAS.

ROY THOMAS covers his 40-YEAR career in comics, with ADAMS, BUSCEMA, COLAN, DITKO, GIL KANE, KIRBY, STAN LEE, ORDWAY, PÉREZ, ROMITA, and many others! Also, FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT and MR. MONSTER and more! Edited by ROY THOMAS.

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SUBSCRIBE TO ALTER EGO! Twelve Issues in the US: $60 Standard, $96 First Class (Canada: $120, Elsewhere: $132 Surface, $180 Airmail). AE #25: (108 pgs.) JACK COLE & PLASTIC MAN! Brother DICK COLE interviewed, Cole celebrated by ALEX TOTH, THOMAS on All-Star Squadron #1, JERRY BAILS tribute, FCA, cover by TOTH! $8 US

AE #26: (108 pgs.) JOE SINNOTT interview, KIRBY and BUSCEMA art, IRWIN DONENFELD, Superman art by SHUSTER, BORING, SWAN, FCA, Mr. MONSTER, covers by SINNOTT & BORING! $8 US

#20:(108 (108pgs.) pgs.) AE #27: VINTIMELY/ SULLIMARVEL focus,KIRBY INVADERS VAN intv., “Lost” HULK overview the with1948 KIRBY, covers, NY KANE, CON, ROBBINS,Unknown” BOB DESCHAMPS “Great artists, intv., panel FCA, withALEX FINGER, KURTZMAN, TOTH, BINDER, FOX, & WEISINGER, MR. MONSTER, covers by FCA, rare art, more! $8 $8 US US BURNLEY & KIRBY!

AE #28: (108 pgs.) JOE MANEELY spotlight, scarce Marvel art by EVERETT, SEVERIN, DITKO, ROMITA, extra-size FCA, LEE AMES intv., covers by MANEELY & DON NEWTON! $8 US

AE #29: (108 pgs.) FRANK BRUNNER intv., EVERETT’s Venus, Classics Illustrated adapting Lovecraft, LEE/KIRBY/ DITKO prototypes, ALEX TOTH, FCA with GENE COLAN, BRUNNER cover! $8 US

AE #30: (108 pgs.) SILVER AGE JLA special, ALEX ROSS on the JLA, MIKE SEKOWSKY, DICK DILLIN, GOLDEN AGE SIMON & KIRBY scripters speak, FRENCH HEROES, ROSS & RUDE covers! $8 US

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NOTE: IF YOU PREFER A SIX-ISSUE SUB, JUST CUT THE PRICE IN HALF!

AE #32: (108 pgs.) Golden Age TIMELY ARTISTS intv., MART NODELL, MIKE GOLD on the Silver Age, art by SIMON & KIRBY, SWAN, INFANTINO, KANE, GIORDANO & GIL KANE covers! $8 US

(The cover price of Alter Ego increases by $1 as of #52, but the subscription price remains the same.) ALTER EGO #51 (AUG.)

ALTER EGO #52 (SEPT.)

ALTER EGO #53 (OCT.)

Golden Age Batman artist/Bob Kane ghost LEW SAYRE SCHWARTZ interviewed, the Golden & Silver Ages of AUSTRALIAN SUPER-HEROES, Mad artist DAVE BERG interviewed, FCA, MICHAEL T. GILBERT on WILL EISNER, ALEX TOTH and more! Edited by ROY THOMAS.

JOE GIELLA on the Silver Age at DC, the Golden Age at Marvel, and JULIE SCHWARTZ, with rare art by INFANTINO, GIL KANE, SEKOWSKY, SWAN, DILLIN, MOLDOFF, GIACOIA, SCHAFFENBERGER, and others, JAY SCOTT PIKE on STAN LEE, MARTIN THALL, and more! Edited by ROY THOMAS.

GIORDANO and THOMAS on STOKER’S DRACULA, never-seen DICK BRIEFER Frankenstein strip, MIKE ESPOSITO on his work with ROSS ANDRU, Halloween art by COLAN, WRIGHTSON, MIGNOLA, BRUNNER, BISSETTE, KALUTA, HEATH, MANEELY, EVERETT, DITKO, and others!! Edited by ROY THOMAS.

(100-page magazine) $9 US

(100-page magazine) $8 US

AE #33: (108 pgs.) MIKE SEKOWSKY tribute, intvs. with wife PAT SEKOWSKY and Golden Age inker VALERIE BARCLAY, art by ANDERSON, ANDRU & ESPOSITO, INFANTINO, FRENZ covers! $8 US

AE #34: (108 pgs.) QUALITY COMICS, intvs. with ALEX KOTZKY, CHUCK CUIDERA, DICK ARNOLD, TOTH, KURTZMAN, art by FINE, EISNER, COLE, CRANDALL and NICHOLAS covers! $8 US

AE #35: #20: (108 (108pgs.) pgs.)STAN TIMELY/ LEE, MARVEL focus,DICK INVADERS JOHN ROMITA, AYERS, overview with KIRBY, KANE, ROY THOMAS, & AL JAFFEE ROBBINS, BOB DESCHAMPS on the 1940s & 1950s Golden intv., FINGER, Age at panel Timely/with Marvel, FCA, BINDER, FOX, & ROMITA WEISINGER, MR. MONSTER, and $8 US FCA, rarecovers! art, more! JAFFEE $8 US

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AE #37: (108 pgs.) BECK & BORING covers, SY BARRY intv., Superman “K-Metal” story, FCA with C.C. BECK, MARC SWAYZE, DON NEWTON, and Shazam!/Isis!, MR. MONSTER, and more! $8 US

AE #38: (108 pgs.) JULIUS SCHWARTZ tribute & interviews, art by INFANTINO, ANDERSON, KUBERT, KANE, TOTH, SWAN, SEKOWSKY, FCA section, INFANTINO and HASEN covers, more!! $8 US

AE #39: (108 pgs.) Full issue JERRY ROBINSON spotlight, with comprehensive interview and unseen Batman art, AL FELDSTEIN on EC, GIL FOX, MESKIN, ROUSSOS, & ROBINSON covers! $8 US

AE #40: (108 pgs.) JULIUS SCHWARTZ memorial issue with tributes by pros, GIL KANE interview, comprehensive interview and unseen art by RUSS HEATH, GIL KANE and HEATH covers! $8 US

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Collector

Comments

Send letters to: THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR c/o TwoMorrows • NEW ADDRESS! 10407 Bedfordtown Drive • Raleigh, NC 27614 E-mail to: twomorrow@aol.com • See back issue excerpts at: www.twomorrows.com ...and the winner is... (the envelope, please)... everyone who writes, since all letters will be considered for publication (and delicately edited)!

“Morrow’s phrasing suggests (to me, at least) that it will be something that we can buy, so I assume it’s not something like, say, an animated KAMANDI series (but couldn’t that be terrific?). Something that will “change Kirby collecting forever” might be something that would bring Jack to the greater attention of the masses (which might not be an extremely positive change for those already collecting Kirby)—maybe a motion picture biography? Or have they unearthed unpublished but complete comics from Kirby’s classic era? Hey, the KIRBY COLLECTOR printed 3 pages of unused Hulk pencils from the early ‘60s just last issue, and no one can quite agree on the story behind them...” “Maybe Evanier has finally finished his long-awaited biography of “The King.” “Maybe they’ve found Jack’s original ending to the FOURTH WORLD saga. Or maybe somebody finally figured out who inked FANTASTIC FOUR #1.” “I think it will have something to do with rights to certain characters changing a bit or something...” “The King didn’t die, he just went into hiding with Elvis (also the King) and he is ready to return to comics signing an exclusive contract with DC.” “I hope it is some kind of financial reward to the the Kirby Estate from Marvel. But that really wouldn’t change Kirby collecting forever.” “Maybe someone discovered that Vince Colletta made stats of all of Kirby’s pages before Colletta erased the backgrounds.” “I am hoping for a Kirby written/penciled and uninked ending to the FOURTH WORLD from 1972, say a couple of hundred pages. Hoping, but not expecting...” “I’m betting new undiscovered story or characters. Either that or unpublished/ unfinished previous Kirby work i.e. two unpublished issues of the FF. Probably some

find like that.” “Maybe someone bought the rights to the Kirbyverse titles and are going to start publication again.” (For those of you who read the letter column before the rest of the mag, turn to page 2 of this issue for the REAL announcement! However, one of the above respondents hit on another surprise we’ll be announcing NEXT issue that’ll be fantastic for Kirby fans around Christmas time! So stay tuned!) Just a quick note to say I love the beautiful reprint of the full public domain story that was in the latest TJKC! Since we can’t easily or inexpensively get these elsewhere, I hope you will continue to supply ’em. And if I might beg for some, Jack’s BLACK MAGIC comic work was superbly chilling! Anxiously awaiting your surprise announcement next ish! Can’t imagine what’s up your sleeve… Jeff Gelb, Sherman Oaks, CA (An unreprinted BLACK MAGIC story is coming up next issue, courtesy of Chris Fama, and just in time for Halloween!)

Joe Giella, etc. had worked with Jack. By comparison—I know I’m in the minority here—the one Mike Royer-inked JO issue really looks UGLY. There’s no field of depth in it. Astonishing that Colletta was somehow better at giving the art a “3D” look, considering his bad reputation with generally using nothing but “thin, scratchy lines.” I’ve seen MUCH better from Royer—particularly later on, at Marvel. But here—EHH!!! But the REAL reason I wanted to write was “The Man From Transvilane.” Many have gone on about how Count Dragorin was almost the first Comics Code-approved vampire, and the whole two-parter a tribute to the classic Universal monsters. But that’s not ALL it was! Sunday night I watched something I haven’t seen in DECADES—a second-season episode of THE OUTER LIMITS entitled “WOLF 359.” My God!!! Jack’s story could easily be looked at as a SEQUEL to that!!! The whole set-up with the outer-space scientific research lab trying to recreate the atmosphere of an alien planet—and eventually, an entire planet, in MINIATURE (with time and evolution sped up, something Jack neglected to mention) is all there!! Even cameras focused on the planet, an electron

©MGM

(We’re burning rubber to get this issue out in time for the San Diego Con, and at presstime, #42 had only been out about two weeks. Since we don’t have many letters on last issue yet, here’s some guesses about our “surprise announcement that’ll change Kirby collecting forever”, from the Comic Book Resources website forums at <http://forums.comicbookresources.com/sho wthread.php?t=62374>:)

Cooke’s name there too. Hmmm—nice to see. Not much to respond to until I absorb more (and I don’t always have a gush of comments!) but I do have a couple of things left over from #41. 1) Did anyone notice the FF/Eternals pinup on page 23 was based in part on the great Hulk-Ikaris splash from ETERNALS #14? Good choice by whoever commissioned it. [see below] 2) Regarding the WAR OF THE WORLDS cover ‘swipe’ on page 12, the nearest that came to my mind is a Batroc panel in TALES OF SUSPENSE/Cap #85, page 4, panel 1. But that is hardly a ‘direct’ swipe. Did anyone else find one? [see bottom of this page] I’m not normally a super-anti-Vinnie guy but I found a panel the other day that blew my socks off. I was reading “Tales of Asgard” from THOR #112 and looking at page 2, panel 3; I couldn’t work it out. Remembering that you have showcased the pencils for this I looked it up (TJKC #36) and lo and behold—the panel doesn’t make sense because Vince deleted the baddie’s HEAD!!!! His arms and shoulders are there— but not his head! Unbelievable!!! Shane Foley, AUSTRALIA (See Mark Evanier’s column on page 13 of this issue for the “Tales of Asgard” example Shane’s talking about! And if you’ve run across any other examples of Colletta omissions, send ’em in!)

The very nice latest volume arrived finally in Ozland. Lovely package, as always. And it certainly read like you were having a good time putting it together. It was—how do I put it—a happy read!!!! So not only is Eric [Nolen-Weathington] having a bigger hand in things (and the issue looked really good, whether by your heavy-handed overseeing, as you hinted, or whether Eric simply has his finger on the pulse. I’m sure he’d say it is the second reason), but we see Jon B.

I’ve had the second JIMMY OLSEN ADVENTURES book sitting on the “urgent reading” stack next to my bed since it came out. As with the first one, I’m amazed at how much BETTER it looks than the originals—and I have all of those (except the first two JO issues, which I’ve finally been able to read thanks to the new reprints). It’s criminal that Marvel was always so slipshod with negatives and stats; it’s no wonder I treasure originals of those more than any reprints. But luckily, DC did a better job since 1960, and anything Silver Age tends to look like it was just made yesterday. (It’s kinda like comparing watching STAR TREK episodes on video as opposed to reruns in the ’70s and ’80s when local stations were running FADING film prints.) As I’ve flipped through the book, one thing really sticks in my mind. This is some of the BEST inking I’ve ever seen from Vince Colletta. And I think the Murphy Anderson faces really help. It made me genuinely wonder what it might have looked like if Anderson had inked the WHOLE series. I also wondered how it might have been if some of DC’s slick, polished inkers like Jack Abel,

microscope to view the surface, and a clawed-and-caped monster. The main spin Jack put on it was turning the cameras into movie projectors. Wow! Seeing that episode made me happy the JO book had finally reached the top of the reading stack. Imagine sitting through both stories only days apart. I thought I’d pass this on, because for all the detailed discussion of the various stories, I don’t recall this OUTER LIMITS episode ever being mentioned as one of Jack’s inspirations (the way various STAR TREKs and THE PRISONER were). I see Arnold Drake wasn’t the only one watching those shows! Henry R. Kujawa, Camden, NJ I’m either possessed by the spirit of the late, great cartoonist C.C. Beck or I’m starting to understand what he was talking about when he wrote “The Crusty Curmudgeon” for Gary

Kirby Trivia Challenge!

The above notes, in Jack’s handwriting, were scrawled on the back of one of the Tales Of Suspense #93 stats from this issue’s Gallery. It appears Jack was jotting down ideas for future issues of Fantastic Four on whatever paper he had handy. See if you can determine in what issues (if any) these ideas finally saw print!

Groth. I can’t help but think Gary Picariello’s “Equation for Success” is actually an “Equation for Mediocrity”! Part of the reason why TJKC exists is because Kirby was defiant and chose to go his own way when it came to creating his comics. What Marvel did in the ’70s was take the success of FANTASTIC FOUR #25-26 and made it standard practice for the bulk of their tales. What they didn’t realize (or forgot) was that a crossover only generates real excitement when it is a rare event. If Jack had followed what was then “the norm,” there would have been constant slugfests between heroes, with time-outs taken to deal with the occasional super-villain. Oh yes, and Spider-Man would have gueststarred in every other issue! Not only that, but this whole “established universe” concept over the years has proven to be detrimental to the imaginations of both creators and consumers. Case in point: DC Comics has stated they consider Superman their most powerful hero. So where does that leave us Captain Marvel fans? By contrast, how could Stan Lee say that the Hulk was “the strongest living thing

on Earth” and then write a story wherein the Hulk could be defeated by the Sub-Mariner or the Silver Surfer? Easily... he used his imagination. An “official universe” policy would have prevented him from doing so. Is it any wonder that Jack Kirby would have tried to avoid this insanity? Heck, the editors even had John Romita redraw a perfectly fine Hulk illustration on the cover of ETERNALS #15! The elements that make up this “Equation for Success” have contributed to the stagnation of mainstream American comics. Some of our most talented creators have either bypassed comics altogether in order to pursue other, more creative and lucrative media (such as animation, video games, films, etc.) or have struggled to publish their own comics independently. Meanwhile, rising prices, overly “sophisticated” super-heroes and dwindling creativity have caused kids to pursue other sources of entertainment (such as the ones mentioned above), and if they do still read comics, they are more likely to pick up YU-GI-OH than SPIDER-MAN. Let’s face facts, HARRY POTTER and George Lucas have done more to spark the imagination of children in the last 20 years than either Marvel or DC. So much for “...Success.” As a collector of vintage comic books, Marvel’s ’70s output offers very little for me. The cream of the crop seems to be TOMB OF DRACULA, WARLOCK, sporadic issues of CONAN and/or MASTER OF KUNG-FU, and almost everything by JACK KlRBY... a cartoonist who was truly out of touch—THANK GOODNESS!! Rex Ferrell, Boston, MA Don’t know what I’d do without TJKC to get my Kirby Fix! There’s always so much great information about Jack and his contemporaries, interesting little items that I never knew (or forgot!), and, of course, sensational artwork. I especially enjoyed your overview of the NEWSBOY LEGION, and was impressed by the amount of data you presented, and by the fact that you actually have been able to obtain copies of every issue. I have been getting a real kick out of the “Kirby Obscura” feature, mainly because so many of the items are books that I’ve tracked down for my own collection. BLACK CAT MYSTIC has long been a favorite of mine, and although I have the issue (#60) discussed in TJKC #42, I prefer the issue just preceding it (#59, to be exact). It has a trio of great Kirby stories, plus it features a fascinating Kirby cover which depicts a man with an oversized head erasing himself from existence! Speaking of Kirby Obscura, here’s a tidbit that is actually the opposite of what you spoke of in your article about the Newsboy Legion and whether or not Kirby was involved in the later issues. I was leafing through some of my mid’60s Marvels and came across an interesting instance of Kirby art that I never hear mentioned. In TALES OF SUSPENSE #58, which features a battle between Iron Man and Captain America (just prior to Cap being added to the TOS line-up), the story art is credited to Don Heck. And it’s obvious he did the pencils on the entire story... EXCEPT for the Captain America

43 Credits:

John Morrow, Editor Pamela Morrow, Asst. Editor Eric Nolen-Weathington, Production Assistant and Proofreader TwoMorrows & Eric Nolen-Weathington Design/Layout Rand Hoppe, Webmaster Tom Ziuko, Colorist

figure on page 4, panel 6 [below], and face-off between Iron Man and Cap on page 12, panel 2 [above], which are without a doubt drawn by Jack! The question is, why? Heck does a serviceable job on Cap throughout the rest of the story, so what was the reason to insert Jack’s work in those 2 panels? It also made me wonder how often something like that occurred in other comics. It would be interesting to hear from anyone who has stumbled across an isolated panel in someone else’s story that is obviously done by Jack. Keep up the great work, and Make Mine TJKC! Bruce Younger, Rochester, NY

SPECIAL THANKS TO ALL OUR CONTRIBUTORS: Jerry Boyd Shel Dorf Mark Evanier Chris Fama Shane Foley Barry Forshaw Scott Fresina Mike Gartland Lisa Kirby Sean Kleefeld Adam McGovern Harry Mendryk Will Murray Bill Schelly David Schwartz Steve Sherman Gary Sherman Joe Simon Joe Sinnott Mike Thibodeaux Roy Thomas Kirk Tilander Marv Wolfman Bruce Zick Tom Ziuko and of course The Kirby Estate If we’ve forgotten anyone, please let us know!

Contribute & Get Free Issues!

NEXT ISSUE: Mythadventures rule in JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR #44, focusing on KIRBY’S MYTHOLOGICAL CHARACTERS, including THE DEMON, THOR, ATLAS, ETERNALS, and others! There’s a rare interview with KIRBY, MARK EVANIER and our other regular columnists, Kirby pencil art galleries of THE DEMON and other classic mythological characters (at whopping TABLOID SIZE), a never-reprinted BLACK MAGIC story, an interview with Kirby Award winner and family friend DAVID SCHWARTZ, new Kirby Demon cover inked by MATT WAGNER, & more! It ships in October, and the submission deadline is 8/15/05.

Classifieds (10¢/word, $1 minimum) KIRBY SKETCHES WANTED of any Marvel characters. Sketches, convention drawings, anything! Contact: Aaron Sultan, 919-954-7111 or email: spiderboop@aol.com AMAZING SPIDER-MAN Original Art Wanted! Any page, any issue! Romita, Ross Andru, Frenz, Ditko, Mooney, etc. Contact: Aaron Sultan, 919-954-7111 or e-mail: spiderboop@aol.com ORIGINAL ART Marvel/DC Wanted! 1960s-80s, Spider-Man, FF, Green Lantern, Iron Man, etc. Contact: Aaron Sultan, 919-954-7111 or e-mail: spiderboop@aol.com FOR SALE: Gold and Silver Age comics with Kirby art including Airboy, Famous Funnies, Journey into Mystery. Silver Age & newer comics with Kirby reprints, including Collectors Item Classics, Marvel Tales and Sky Masters. For complete list and details, contact: Bruce Younger 585-4737567 or e-mail: byounger@frontiernet.net

The Jack Kirby Collector is a notfor-profit publication, put together with submissions from Jack’s fans around the world. We don’t pay for submissions, but if we print art or articles you submit, we’ll send you a free copy of the issue it appears in. Here’s a tentative list of upcoming themes, but we treat these themes very loosely, so anything you write may fit somewhere. So get writing, and send us copies of your Kirby art! GOT A THEME IDEA? PLEASE WRITE US! MYTHS & LEGENDS! (#44) Jack’s use of legendary figures in comics, including the Demon! KIRBY TIME MACHINE! (#45) Justice Inc., WWII, Losers, In The Days of the Mob, Simon & Kirby, and some prehistoric strips! FOURTH WORLD ISSUE! (#46) A split look at New Gods and Forever People in-depth! KIRBY’S SUPER TEAMS! (#47) We’ll explore Jack’s group mentality, from kid gangs and the Challengers to the big guns like the FF, X-Men, Avengers, Inhumans, even Super Powers! ALL LEADING UP TO OUR SURPRISE 50TH ISSUE!! SUBMISSION GUIDELINES: Submit artwork as: 1) Color or B&W photocopies. 2) 300ppi TIFF or JPEG scans 3) Originals (insured). Submit articles as: 1) E-mail: twomorrow@aol.com 2) ASCII or RTF text files. 3) Typed or laser printed pages. We’ll pay return postage and insurance for originals—please write or call first. Please include background information whenever possible.

Parting Shot

It wouldn’t be Summer without a trip to the beach, and where there’s waves, there’s surfers. So if it’s 100+ in the shade where you are, enjoy this cool, refreshing final page from the Silver Surfer graphic novel, Kirby’s 1978 swan song on Galactus’ herald. Jack had a habit of having his characters ride off into the sunset on the final page of his work on them, and we could think of no better example of it than this.

THE TWOMORROWS LIBRARY R! WINNE D R A AW EISNER

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SEE HOW YOUR FAVORITE ARTISTS MAKE A LIVING OUTSIDE COMICS

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PANEL DISCUSSIONS

TOP ARTISTS DISCUSS THE DESIGN OF COMICS Top creators discuss all aspects of the DESIGN OF COMICS:

DICK GIORDANO

CHANGING COMICS, ONE DAY AT A TIME MICHAEL EURY’s biography of comics’ most prominent and affable personality!

• Covers his career as illustrator, inker, and • WILL EISNER • SCOTT HAMPTON editor, peppered with DICK’S PERSONAL • MIKE WIERINGO • WALTER SIMONSON REFLECTIONS on his career milestones! • MIKE MIGNOLA • MARK SCHULTZ • DAVID MAZZUCCHELLI • MIKE CARLIN • Lavishly illustrated with RARE AND NEVER SEEN comics, merchandising, and • DICK GIORDANO • BRIAN STELFREEZE advertising art (includes a color section)! • CHRIS MOELLER • MARK CHIARELLO • Extensive index of his published work! If you’re serious about creating effective, • Comments & tributes by NEAL ADAMS, innovative comics, or just enjoying them DENNIS O’NEIL, TERRY AUSTIN, PAUL from the creator’s perspective, this guide is LEVITZ, MARV WOLFMAN, JULIUS must-reading! SCHWARTZ, JIM APARO & others! (208-Page Trade Paperback) $26 US • With a Foreword by NEAL ADAMS and Afterword by PAUL LEVITZ!

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TOP ARTISTS DRAWING STORIES OF THEIR LIVES An unprecedented assembly of talent drawing NEW autobiographical stories: • Barry WINDSOR-SMITH • C.C. BECK • Sergio ARAGONÉS • Walter SIMONSON • Brent ANDERSON • Nick CARDY • Roy THOMAS & John SEVERIN • Paul CHADWICK • Rick VEITCH • Murphy ANDERSON • Joe KUBERT • Evan DORKIN • Sam GLANZMAN • Plus Art SPIEGELMAN, Jack KIRBY, more! Cover by RUDE • Foreword by EISNER (160-Page Trade Paperback) $24 US

CAPTAIN ACTION

THE ORIGINAL SUPERHERO ACTION FIGURE CAPTAIN ACTION debuted in the wake of the ’60s Batman TV show, and could become 13 different super-heroes. With over 200 toy photos, this trade paperback chronicles his history (including comic book appearances), with historical anecdotes by the late GIL KANE, JIM SHOOTER, STAN WESTON (co-creator of GI Joe, Captain Action, and Mego’s World’s Greatest Super-Heroes), and others, plus never-seen artwork by GIL KANE, JOE STATON, CARMINE INFANTINO, JERRY ORDWAY, and MURPHY ANDERSON! Includes a color section! Written by MICHAEL EURY!

“I HAVE TO LIVE WITH THIS GUY!” Explore the lives of the partners and wives of the top names in comics, as they share memories, anecdotes, personal photos, momentos, and never-before-seen art by: • ALAN MOORE • WILL EISNER • STAN LEE • GENE COLAN • JOE KUBERT • JOHN ROMITA • HARVEY KURTZMAN • DAVE SIM • HOWARD CRUSE • DAN DeCARLO • DAVE COOPER and many more!

CELEBRATING GREAT COMIC BOOK ARTISTS OF ENGLAND A celebration of the rich history of British Comics Artists and their influence on the US with in-depth interviews and art by: • BRIAN BOLLAND • ALAN DAVIS • DAVE GIBBONS • BRYAN HITCH • DAVID LLOYD

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BEST OF DRAW! VOL. 1 Compiles material from the first two soldout issues of DRAW!, the “How-To” magazine on comics and cartooning! Tutorials by, and interviews with: DAVE GIBBONS (layout and drawing on the computer), BRET BLEVINS (drawing lovely women, painting from life, and creating figures that “feel”), JERRY ORDWAY (detailing his working methods), KLAUS JANSON and RICARDO VILLAGRAN (inking techniques), GENNDY TARTA-KOVSKY (on animation and Samurai Jack), STEVE CONLEY (creating web comics and cartoons), PHIL HESTER and ANDE PARKS (penciling and inking), and more! (200-page trade paperback) $26 US

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COMICS ABOVE GROUND features top comics pros discussing their inspirations and training, and how they apply it in “Mainstream Media,” including Conceptual Illustration, Video Game Development, Children’s Books, Novels, Design, Illustration, Fine Art, Storyboards, Animation, Movies & more! Written by DURWIN TALON (author of the top-selling PANEL DISCUSSIONS), this book features creators sharing their perspectives and their work in comics and their “other professions,” with career overviews, neverbefore-seen art, and interviews! Featuring: • BRUCE TIMM • BERNIE WRIGHTSON • ADAM HUGHES

• LOUISE SIMONSON • DAVE DORMAN • GREG RUCKA & MORE!

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G-FORCE: ANIMATED

THE OFFICIAL BATTLE OF THE PLANETS GUIDEBOOK The official compendium to the Japanese animated TV program that revolutionized anime across the globe! Featuring plenty of unseen artwork and designs from the wondrous world of G-FORCE (a.k.a. Science Ninja Team Gatchaman), it presents interviews and behind-the-scenes stories of the pop culture phenomenon that captured the hearts and imagination of Generation X, and spawned the new hit comic series! Cowritten by JASON HOFIUS and GEORGE KHOURY, this FULL-COLOR account is highlighted by a NEW PAINTED COVER from master artist ALEX ROSS! (96-Page Trade Paperback) $20 US

MODERN MASTERS SERIES

(176-pg. Paperback) $24 US THE

Edited by ERIC NOLEN-WEATHINGTON

AGAINST THE GRAIN: MAD ARTIST

ART OF GEORGE TUSKA

THE LEGION COMPANION • A history of the Legion of Super-Heroes, with DAVE COCKRUM, MIKE GRELL, JIM STARLIN, JAMES SHERMAN, PAUL LEVITZ, KEITH GIFFEN, STEVE LIGHTLE, MARK WAID, JIM SHOOTER, JIM MOONEY, AL PLASTINO, and more! • Rare and never-seen Legion art by the above, plus GEORGE PÉREZ, NEAL ADAMS, CURT SWAN, and others! • Unused Cockrum character designs and pages from an UNUSED STORY! • New cover by DAVE COCKRUM and JOE RUBINSTEIN, introduction by JIM SHOOTER, and more! (224-page Trade Paperback) $29 US

COMIC BOOKS & OTHER NECESSITIES OF LIFE WERTHAM WAS RIGHT! SUPERHEROES IN MY PANTS! Each collects MARK EVANIER’S best essays and commentaries, plus new essays and illustrations by Mark’s GROO collaborator and MAD artist SERGIO ARAGONÉS! 200-page Trade Paperbacks • $17 US EACH ALL THREE BOOKS: $34 US POSTPAID

BEST OF THE LEGION OUTPOST Collects the best material from the hardto-find LEGION OUTPOST fanzine, including rare interviews and articles from creators such as DAVE COCKRUM, CARY BATES, and JIM SHOOTER, plus neverbefore-seen artwork by COCKRUM, MIKE GRELL, JIMMY JANES and others! It also features a previously unpublished interview with KEITH GIFFEN originally intended for the never-published LEGION OUTPOST #11, plus other new material! And it sports a rarely-seen classic 1970s cover by Legion fan favorite artist DAVE COCKRUM!

ALL-STAR COMPANION VOL. 1

HERO GETS GIRL!

ROY THOMAS has assembled the most thorough look ever taken at All-Star Comics:

THE LIFE & ART OF KURT SCHAFFENBERGER

• Covers by MURPHY ANDERSON! • Issue-by-issue coverage of ALL–STAR COMICS #1–57, the original JLA–JSA teamups, & the ’70s ALL–STAR REVIVAL! • Art from an unpublished 1945 JSA story! • Looks at FOUR “LOST” ALL–STAR issues! • Rare art by BURNLEY, DILLIN, KIRBY, INFANTINO, KANE, KUBERT, ORDWAY, ROSS, WOOD and more!!

MARK VOGER’s biography of the artist of LOIS LANE & CAPTAIN MARVEL!

(208-page Trade Paperback) $26 US

• Covers KURT’S LIFE AND CAREER from the 1940s to his passing in 2002! • Features NEVER-SEEN PHOTOS & ILLUSTRATIONS from his files! • Includes recollections by ANDERSON, EISNER, INFANTINO, KUBERT, ALEX ROSS, MORT WALKER and others!

A comprehensive look at Tuska’s personal and professional life, including early work with Eisner-Iger, crime comics of the 1950s, and his tenure with Marvel and DC Comics, as well as independent publishers. The book includes extensive coverage of his work on IRON MAN, X-MEN, HULK, JUSTICE LEAGUE, TEEN TITANS, BATMAN, T.H.U.N.D.E.R. AGENTS, and many more! A gallery of commission artwork and a thorough index of his work are included, plus original artwork, photos, sketches, previously unpublished art, interviews and anecdotes from his peers and fans, plus George’s own words! (128-page trade paperback) $19 US

(128-page Trade Paperback) $19 US

REVISED EDITION!

(160-page trade paperback) $22 US

T.H.U.N.D.E.R. AGENTS COMPANION The definitive book on WALLACE WOOD’s super-team of the 1960s, featuring interviews with Woody and other creators involved in the T-Agents over the years, plus rare and unseen art, including a rare 28-page story drawn by PAUL GULACY, UNPUBLISHED STORIES by GULACY, PARIS CULLINS, and others, and a JERRY ORDWAY cover. Edited by CBA’s JON B. COOKE. (192-page trade paperback) $29 US

READ EXCERPTS & ORDER AT: www.twomorrows.com

WALLACE WOOD

WARREN COMPANION

The definitive biographical memoir on one of comics' finest artists, 20 years in the making! Former associate BHOB STEWART traces Wood's life and career, with contributions from many artists and writers who knew Wood personally, making this a remarkable compendium of art, insights and critical commentary! From childhood drawings & early samples to nearly endless comics pages (many unpublished), this is the most stunning display of Wood art ever assembled! BILL PEARSON, executor of the Wood Estate, contributed rare drawings from Wood's own files, while art collector ROGER HILL provides a wealth of obscure, previously unpublished Wood drawings and paintings.

The ultimate guide to Warren Publishing, the publisher of such mags as CREEPY, EERIE, VAMPIRELLA, BLAZING COMBAT, and others. Reprints COMIC BOOK ARTIST #4 (completely reformatted), plus nearly 200 new pages:

(336-Page Trade Paperback) $44 US

WALLACE WOOD CHECKLIST

FAWCETT COMPANION THE BEST OF FCA Presenting the best of the FAWCETT COLLECTORS OF AMERICA newsletter! • New JERRY ORDWAY cover! • Index of ALL FAWCETT COMICS! • Looks inside the FAWCETT OFFICES! • Interviews, features, and rare and previously unpublished artwork by C.C. BECK, MARC SWAYZE, KURT SCHAFFENBERGER, MAC RABOY, DAVE BERG, ALEX TOTH, BOB OKSNER, GEORGE EVANS, ALEX ROSS, Foreword by MARC SWAYZE, and more! (160-page Trade Paperback) $20 US

MODERN MASTERS: IN THE STUDIO WITH GEORGE PÉREZ DVD

Lists Wood’s PUBLISHED COMICS WORK in detail, plus FANZINE ART, ADVERTISING ILLUSTRATIONS, UNPUBLISHED WORK, and more. Illustrated with rare and unseen Wood artwork!

This DVD companion to the Modern Masters book series gives you a personal tour of George Pérez’s studio, and lets you watch step-by-step as the fan-favorite artist illustrates a special issue of Top Cow’s Witchblade! Also, see George as he sketches for fans at conventions, and hear his peers and colleagues—including Marv Wolfman and Ron Marz—share their anecdotes and personal insights along the way!

(68 Pages) $7 US

(120-minute DVD) $34 US

A new series of trade paperbacks devoted to the BEST OF TODAY'S COMICS ARTISTS! Each volume contains RARE AND UNSEEN ARTWORK direct from the artist’s files, plus a COMPREHENSIVE INTERVIEW (including influences and their views on graphic storytelling), DELUXE SKETCHBOOK SECTIONS, and more!

VOL. 1: ALAN DAVIS

VOL. 3: BRUCE TIMM

(128-Page Trade Paperback) $17 US

(120-Page TPB with COLOR) $19 US

VOL. 2: GEORGE PÉREZ

VOL. 4: KEVIN NOWLAN

(128-Page Trade Paperback) $17 US

(120-Page TPB with COLOR) $19 US

Prices Include US Postage. Outside the US, Add $2 Per Item Canada, $3 Per Item Surface, $7 Per Item Airmail

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