Sustainable Imagination_redesign version

Sustainable Imagination 可持续幻想

A Sustainable imagination?

Chinese Multimedia Art Since 1989, An Exhibition Series From 1999 to 2007 --Li Zhenhua This article loosely states my incentives for this exhibition, or in other words, the clues to this exhibition. Like the clues in a murder scene, they are too difficult to be sorted out. Multiple clues point in multiple directions, yet don’t seem to lead to any substantial discoveries. Those illusions and hypothesis became an obligation for this exhibition; of course this necessity might not be needed. A sustainable fantasy is merely a utopian moral victory. Constructing a relation between the meaningful and meaningless, I am hoping it will incite the development of the clues and arouse social responsibility.

On Territory In 2004, I collaboratively curated the exhibition “Out the Window” with Japanese and Korean curators; it was on exhibition in Tokyo and Seoul at different times. During that period, I paid more attention to the interactions and the geopolitical relationships between these nations, including their political, economical and military relations. In 2005, I was considering researching “Chinese Multimedia Art Since 1989,” A first series of short films “Waves” and “Virtual China” was scheduled to be shown at the Walker Art Center in the United States in May 2006. In 2007, the topic of sustainable development and contemporary art became the focus of my work. There are a few academic fields that support the plate shifts on the mainland: human genetic research on the origins of human life, and a map of the origins of global disease, or dealing with the human prehistory outside of geography and politics, economy and military affairs. The current geopolitical doctrine stating important historical research is directly connected with geography and the chance to map out a virtual territory both equally inspired my attempt at this exhibition!

Globalization becomes a scheme for research; academics are exploring the generalization beyond geographic borders, especially in the field of information technology. This also leads the categorization of “Chinese Multimedia Art since 1989”. It may be categorized by type: experimental short films, feature films, video art, video installation, interactive video installation, interactive installation, etc. And also by location: Beijing, Shanghai, Hangzhou, Guangzhou, Nanjing, Wuhan, Yuannan, etc., multimedia art can also by categorized by time and other elements. The artists we interviewed have not been creating multimedia art their whole career, but expressing their creativity through various practices. When the classifying borders become blurry again, “Sustainable Fantasy” can be seen as an analysis of the intersection of the development of multimedia art and contemporary art, and based on the social concern expressed by the participating artists, it gives us these clues: first, the sustainability of art amidst social development, and second, the sustainability of multimedia art in the development of contemporary art. Many works in this exhibition are related to the former, including “Architecture in Daily Life” by Wang Jianwei, “The West”

by Qiu Zhijie, “Made in 1968” by Cao Kai, whereas “Strange Heaven” by Yang Fudong, “Survey in Jixi” by Zhang Yuanhan, and “Lunar Excursion Project” by Wang Yuyang touch on the latter, “Made in 1968” and “The West” also include multiple clues. By this timeline, we could order the work “Living Elsewhere” by Wang Jianwei (1999), “West” by Qiu Zhijie (1999), “Strange Heaven” by Yang Fudong (2002), “Made in 1968” by Cao Kai (2006), “Lunar Excursion” by Wang Yuyang (2007), “Survey in Jixi” by Zheng Yuanhan started in (2003).

1999 was the starting point for this project’s time line: artist Wang Jianwei and Qiu Zhijie conducted their study of social diversity through the artist’s personal perspective; Yang Fudong used film media to express the ideas influenced by a renaissance of human-

ism; Cao Kai used 3D graphics to visualize his political imagination, Wang Yuyang and Zheng Yunhan, based on the works mentioned above, independently explored the possibility of using multimedia based social surveys at the next level. They extended the social survey methods of Wang Jianwei and Qiu Zhijie, working in the realm of interaction between artists and society, and replacing political metaphor with the exposure of the truth in science, politics and society.

The border between territories is constantly being redrawn, broken, reconstructed, and becoming more complicated in the development process of multimedia art and contemporary art. The work of determining the border, evaluating the impact of multimedia art and contemporary art on Chinese society, originated through tracing the development of these six persons, it becomes a study parallel with contemporary art and multimedia art.

The Possibilities of Sustainable Development “The relationship between national security and high yielding agricultural sectors is a question of long-term existence. An agricultural revolution is needed. We must face this problem to make the development of the agricultural sector “sustainable.”

——John H. Perkins “Geopolitics and the Green Revolution” The third international meeting on sustainable development was concerned with environmental destruction; in 1972 the United Nations hosted this important conference.

Above are the explanations for sustainability borrowed from different fields, which are all regarding the question of human life. “Sustainable Imagination” is a more utopian proposition, discussing how the economy provides the resources for the sustainable development of art, and how geopolitics and cultural diversity provide it with a larger space to grow.

Discussing sustainable development, we need to identify its roots and the social demand for it, for example, when contemporary art appears at all kinds of auctions as a luxury object for one’s modern collection, it indicates the demand from the market. In relation to the agricultural problem discussed by John H. Perkins: does a sustainable producing power exist in China? Can a healthy relationship between supply and demand last in the long run? To answer these questions, we need to have a basic knowledge of sociology and a roadmap of Chinese art. From the “Stars Group” exhibitions in the late 70’s, to the “No Name Painter’s Association” in the 80’s, to the Painter’s Village in 90’s, to 798’s existence after the year 2000, and the Song Village phenomenon, etc., through these important milestones, geographical and historical, contemporary art, through various collective and oppressed behaviors, superficially made its transformation into a recognized art form that earned the participation of commercial and government interests.

In a new era of web prosperity, in the global scope, multimedia becomes a new means of creation for many artists. New Media Art can be categorized into video art, sound art, multiple reality, robot art and many other forms related to sociology, physics, micrology, archeology, genetics research… all which can not be defined as simply visual art. It also includes the fast developing Internet and astronomy technology. When contemporary art is combined with these scientific fields, it is in a system, and possesses a methodology.

With this exhibition, and through social examination, we hope to extend our exploration beyond visual art into a broader field of knowledge. Research and sociological categories of work have begun to compete with the original creations of artists, in the artists work time possesses an increasingly important role, putting two sides together, how can we seek the essential problems of objects and how can we validate the solutions to these

problems? These are all necessary for constituting the research and development of sustainable development.

There are two co-existing theories: one believing that every individual is special, respecting the uniqueness of each individual and acknowledging differences between every individual’s creation. Another theory argues that uniqueness cannot be proved through example; it simply doesn’t exist. This theory does not respect the uniqueness of each individual or his or her difference in appearance.

There are certain phenomena that we cannot avoid admitting: a similarity in the taste, in style, of media, of techniques, etc. of artists from China. A large number of artists emerge from China, but with very few unique works, this is similar to the global art environment. Unique thoughts, proved only by time, are indeed precious.

Sustainable imagination, in response to these problems of contemporary art, and in the current situation where imagination is lacking in art, in the direction of the development of new media art in China, it gives up on so-called uniqueness, looks into the process of a particular creation of particular artist’s work, and searches in retrospect for the various possibilities of sustainable development.

The Citizen and the Intellectual Adam Michnik said: “My temporal path has its origins in realism. The reality of geopolitics is that we cannot storm into Poland and force out the Soviet troops. My temporal path has its origins elsewhere. It is built upon a kind of self-assurance, multiple intricate and complex realities and convergences that a democracy is forced to deal with. Temporal studies are a philosophy that recognizes hesitation. Comparatively, exactly like I’ve already explained something, it’s already fallen back on the guillotine and is non-democratic.”

These problems directly reflect the relationship between the intellectual and the citizen.

Do the two have different responsibilities and values? They all have social responsibilities, whether intellectual or for the masses. Here is another factor of this exhibition: documentary films and the extensible non-linear style assembly, and to a certain extent, the existence of elites and widespread opinions.

What is a better social model? How does the individual or a collective idea-which represents a certain class and group-evolve? “Living Elsewhere” by Wang Jianwei and “Survey in Jixi” by Zheng Yunhan, from different perspectives, conducted their research by blurring border lines, misplacing life and the concepts of “peasant” and “worker” in Chinese modern history.

“The West” by Qiu Zhijie, from the viewpoint of “The East”, presents a utopian “West”, or at the same time, proves a utopian “East. “Strange Heaven” by Yang Fudong, examines utopian scenery under a microscope. “Made in 1968” by Cao Kai constructs a utopian mirage mixed in with natural scenery and political metaphor. “Lunar Excursion Project” by Wang Yuyang questioned the factualness of the American 1969 lunar landing. All of these interwoven direct and indirect clues can be inter-referenced and mis-interpreted, displaying possibilities in a multi-dimensional space of imagination.

By showing these works, I would like to challenge Michnik’s theory: Not considering any possibility of revolution, and only concerned with the individual’s questioning, and reaction according to the fact. Self-consciousness is the basis of a pluralistic society and democracy. It demonstrates the relationship among different theories regarding intellectuals.

According to the following definitions of intellectual, not a single one is sufficient to

deal with the complexity of the current social problems.

Specialist researcher of intellectuals Edward Shils defines intellectuals as either society’s considerably, often useful, abstract symbols that represent how people interpret people, society, nature and the universe.

Lewis A Coser more definite assertion, college professors are not always intellectuals, but intellectuals are defined by the necessity of “in the name of ideology, not rely on their ideology to earn a living.”

Arab-American cross-cultural critic Edward Said’s definition is: “Intellectuals have the concrete ability to represent, concretely manifest and express information, opinions, attitudes, philosophy or opinions towards and for the popular masses. When playing that role they must be conscious of other territories, bringing into the public any problems that make people awkward, rebel against (and not produce) orthodoxies and religious dogma, and must not be easily fooled by governments or organizations. The intellectual’s reason for existing is to represent people and the topics that we have forgotten or have been accustomed, simply in spite of the fact. Intellectuals do this in accordance to the most common principals: when touching on freedom and righteousness, all of humanity has the right to wish for the standard in validity, must boldly point out mistakes, and to revolt against any intentional or unintentional infringements on these basic rights.

Foucault: “The job of the intellectual is to put into shape the political will of others, and through his personal analysis and research, to call into question the rules, to shake up the spiritual customs of the people, their conduct and ways of thinking, to disperse those things that are familiar and that we’ve already accepted, and to reestablish those rules and systems. In these new foundations (he has, in the midst completed the special mission of the intellectual), he participates in the process of realizing the political will (and in the process acting out the role of the citizen).

Sartre: When a scientist is in his laboratory carrying out core studies, he is not an intellectual. But when he is rebelling against atomic war with a name on a petition, then he is an intellectual.

Max Weber: The intellectual is limited at the people who are called “cultural treasure” because of their incredible accomplishments; they are the spiritual leaders of the social masses.

The path for intellectuals and citizens is perhaps in itself a problem lying somewhere between utopia and reality. It is a compromise or an iota of elitism that will perhaps one day reach the goal of a beautiful realistic society. Intellectuals have expressed their dreams about utopia or for 1984. In contemporary art today, there are two concepts: the masses and the elite, but the ideas of the elite are missing. Therefore, there are questions such as “where has the intellectual gone?” It may also indicate that a group is mature when the transformation in concept is achieved. Or, this is invisible, as we cannot deduce a collective will from individual’s will, as there are too many possibilities in the collective will, the diversity exists in the similarities.

The World Map of New Media Ancient Chinese worked in the “24 styles of poem” as the foundation of a system in poem writing, there are a large number of theories and generalizations. However, there are very few theories to support the development of contemporary art, which emerges in various new forms. Mr. Michael Naimark used to conduct a survey of global new media art for

the Rockefeller Foundation, and provided a virtual world map based on the development of new media art. The two texts from different equally inspire the current “Chinese new media art since 1989”, which also shoulders different responsibilities in the area of studies of artists, technologies and others.

I would like to first clarify the meaning of “new media,” first its constructs. My definition of new media may differ from some others: I think some works only use multimedia as a means for presentation; it doesn’t contribute to the contemporary art or new media art. The creators may not understand what new media art is. Including living organism technology, Artificial Intelligence, virtual reality and other essential principals, or perhaps those involving more profound knowledge of physics, quantum theory and other related art forms. For instance, considering body movements or painting in video form, or accompany with audio sound as new media. This kind of theory comes generally from definitions of time and concepts derived from photography.

In addition, some artists are fascinated by the new technology, learning certain new techniques and transforming them into works that can be appreciated in the scope of visual art. This kind of works make use of the most advanced technology, e.g., Jeffery Shaw’s early work “Web of Life”, which used the newest interactive technology, and similar functions of palm reading. But is it new media art? It remains questionable, because besides the confirmation of artists knowing the technology itself, it doesn’t prove anything, or any contribution to technology. This kind of work is more of a visualization manifestation of the scientific research than an artwork.

Here’s a simple example to illustrate my point: when a simpler and more open technology is discovered, it will replace the existing complicated and more impractical ones, just as Linux will replace Microsoft’s platform. But people may question why the final replacement is not completed. It is because the collective behavior of a large number of users, which is the reaction to a new technology, is dictated by their social environment, living conditions, and other people’s influence, of course including the threshold of the technology itself, this touches on sociology and praxeology. It results in the root of conflicts between freedom and the limited freedom concepts, i.e., obtaining absolute freedom will at the same time mean losing conventional behaviors and our existing profit model. I think this is a dilemma, if we give up the benefits from our existing physical and our mental states for freedom, does this prevent us from the exploration of freedom?

In order to prove the scope of the relationship between new media art and technology in society, we need to identify the essential differences between new media art works and the existing technical products, for example, the difference between “Game Art” and “Gaming” is very straightforward, it can be distinguished by the graphic user interface and interactive content, and what we mentioned earlier about the interactivity and virtual reality. The other is the inspiration we get from a deeper level than the appearance of art. This may require more knowledge outside the scope of art, but it is very necessary.

Reflecting on Sustainable Imagination There are some limitations in the concepts of the exhibition and the display of works.

These limitations come from the lack of general knowledge, from the practical problem of realization these concepts, the misunderstanding of existing concepts and technologies, and the misinterpretation of the artists. As this can’t be described in detail in this article, it may lead to an understanding barrier in the lecture.

As a research in the clues of time/history/genre, this exhibition presents these artists’ explorations in different directions between the years of 1999 to 2007, establishing the categorization of possible forms of contemporary new media art. There is no paral-

lel comparison for these works in a global scale, although there exists similarities, i.e., contemporary art expressed in a similar way world wide, is a cultural phenomena known as the “global village,” or “pop art” and conceptual art/performance art...

However, in this cultural context and historical background, this exhibition has its unique points: all the artists in the exhibition are focusing on current situations in today’s China, both their individual imaginations, experience and sociological study clearly demonstrate this effort. Although their contributions are not as obvious as they should appear (which is a pity), nevertheless, it provides more methodology and possibility to the field of contemporary art, no matter whether in the format of a sociological study, poetic expression or an interactive activity. It provides a foundation for the development of public art and social responsibility.

This exhibition does not focus on the topics in contemporary art today such as globalization, cross-border issues, or regional surveying. However, as the artist’s work apparently includes these questions, without mentioning these concepts it is impossible to provide an interpretation or analysis of the tension happening in the culture. Inevitably, these topics must be discussed. Other topics include the contemporaneity of contemporary art, the “Chinese” style of Chinese artists, and the social responsibility of an artist, democracy, the public and other practical questions.

This exhibition can by no means cover or illustrate all of these aspects, which is indeed a limitation in its own. It can only display several important points in a trajectory, providing clues for the further study of new media. Hopefully, the questions raised by this exhibition will incite more divergent thoughts in various knowledge areas.

Curated as a sectional exhibition, shown here is inevitably only a fragment of the new media art available in China. This exhibition can be taken as a first experimental example in Chinese contemporary art. A singular breath of the manifold, a clue to the plentiful social realities in Chinese contemporary art, a remix of the essence of original versions from the homestead.

可持续幻想？ 中国媒体艺术自1989，展览系列之1999至2007 文：李振华 整个文章有些散漫的交代了这个展览的诱因，或者说这个展览的线索。但是线索如同那些谋杀现场一 样，有些让人摸不到头脑。多重的线索导致对各个层面的触摸，并不真的说明事物的本质，这些幻像 和假设构成了展览的必要性，当然必要的未必是需要的，可持续的幻想本身也不过是一种乌托邦式的 精神胜利法。在有意义或者无意义之间构造某种联系，如果还能够促成一些线索的发展和引发社会责 任，我对此还是有着奢望的。 *关于疆域 2004年我与日本、韩国策划人联合策划的《窗外》展，分别在日本东京和韩国首尔展出。在那个时候 我关心的是地理上三个国家之间的交互影响，来自政治／经济／军事方面的多重关系。2005年我在考 虑做《中国媒体艺术自1989》的研究，第一个系列短片计划《浪潮》与《虚拟中国》计划在2006年5月 的美国行者艺术中心［walker art center］展出，而到2007年时候，关于可持续发展与当代艺术的问 题几乎成了我工作的核心。 几种学说支持的大陆板块漂移，人类基因研究方面探索的关于人类起源的研究，疾病发展出来的世界 地图。到地理和政治／经济／军事之外的人类前史。当今历史研究中重要的地缘政治学说，直接将地 理作为其诱因来阐释的时候，一个虚构的疆界，相对应的引发了这个展览的企图！ 全球化成为一个关于思考的命题，学者都在考虑超越地缘的全球化共性，尤其在技术方面的革新，使 知识／信息全球化。这也成为构思整个《中国媒体艺术自1989》部分的划分工作，其中有几个阶段和 地域的联系，如类型上划分的实验短片、长片、录像艺术、录像装置、互动录像装置、互动装置等， 在地域上涉及北京、上海、杭州、广州、南京、武汉、云南等，还有按照时间的划分等方法。这个研 究涉及的艺术家不是一成不变的做着媒体艺术，他们在当代艺术的环境中，呈现了更加多元的创作实 践。仿佛逐渐清晰的界限又开始模糊的时候，这个《可持续幻想》可以说是对其中媒体艺术与当代艺 术发展的交叉进行分析，并根据这个展览中艺术家针对社会的关注给出线索，一个是社会发展中艺术 的可持续性问题，一个是媒体艺术在当代艺术发展中的可持续性问题。前一个问题大量的涉及到此次 展览艺术家的作品如汪建伟《日常生活的建筑》、邱志杰《西方》、曹恺《1968年制造》，与这些艺 术家相关，在类型上到媒体艺术可持续性发展线索的杨福东《陌生天堂》、郑云瀚《鸡西调查》、王 郁洋《登月计划》，其中曹恺《1968年制造》、邱志杰《西方》是多重线索的作品。根据时间的发展 过程，汪建伟《生活在别处》1999、邱志杰《西方》1999，杨福东《陌生天堂》2002，曹恺《1968年 制造》2006，王郁洋《登月计划》2007，郑云瀚《鸡西调查》开始自2003年。 1999年是这个项目的时间线索，艺术家汪建伟和邱志杰构成社会研究的多样性与艺术家的个人视角的 融合，杨福东借鉴电影媒介与传统人文精神的融合，曹恺借鉴三维与政治想像的融合，王郁洋与郑云 瀚分别在以上艺术家基础上的再次深入探索媒介的可能与社会调查。分别延续汪建伟与邱志杰在社会 调研、艺术家与社会互动范畴的工作，或将政治隐喻转换成与之相关的科学、政治、社会真相的揭 示。 疆域的界限一直存在、打破、重构，越来越繁复的出现在媒体艺术发展与当代艺术发展的过程中。而 划定疆域，显微的看待当代艺术与媒体艺术在中国社会的作用，源自这六个个人的具体发展线索形成 了与当代艺术、媒体艺术艺术的平行线。 *可持续发展的多重可能 国家安全政策与高产农业之间的关系是一个将长期存在的问题，要进行农业改革，使农业发展有“可 持续性”就必须面对这一问题。 ——John H Perkins《地缘政治与绿色革命》 关于可持续发展的三次重要国际会议1中涉及自1972年以来与人类环境恶化对抗，联合国举办的重要会

议及举措。 以上种种借用可持续性的阐释，或者说来自不同领域的可持续性认知，都是针对人类生存的问题展开 思考。可持续想像多少是有些乌托邦式的命题，讨论经济对艺术的可持续发展提供了生长资源，地缘 的发展与文化的多元为可持续性提供了更大的空间范围。 关于可持续发展，就应该找到持续发展的根源和社会需求，如当代艺术作为现代社会收藏需求存在的 奢侈品，出现在各种拍卖会上的时候，说明市场的需求。如同John H Perkins说的农业问题一样，中 国现在是否具备持续的生产力？即作为供求双方的这个关系是否能长久的发展？在这个范畴我们需要 基础的社会学，当代中国艺术发展的地图等等基础知识，从70年代的星星美展，80年代的无名画会， 90年代的画家村现象，2000年后的798、宋庄现象等等重要当代艺术发展线索，或者是地域上的、或者 是事件线索的，发展的可持续性，从被挤压的个人集体行为，到商业、政府意识的介入，当代艺术表 面上完成了正常化发展的进程。 在媒体艺术大行其道的世界范畴，媒体艺术伴随着新一轮的网络繁荣，成为很多艺术家的新的创作方 法。大致上可以归类到媒体艺术的有录像艺术、声音艺术、多重现实、机器人艺术和涉及到社会学、 物理学、纤维学、考古学、DNA研究等等不能被简单定义为视觉艺术的学科统统被简称为新媒体艺术。 当然也包括正在不断更新的国际互联技术的应用与航天技术的探索。艺术在捆绑这些学科的时候，学 科虽然是以后缀的方式出现的，但是显然有着强烈的为前者制订范畴的作用。可持续发展在当代艺术 本身的完善方面显然已经非常的有体系、有方法。 这个展览也希望通过这些已经出现的作品，通过独立个体对社会的深入探索，在视觉艺术之外，更大 范围的知识领域延伸。研究与社会学范畴的工作开始对艺术家的独创性进行着挑战，而时间在艺术家 的工作中占有着越来越大的重要性，结合两个方面，就是如何找寻事物的根本问题和如何通过时间来 验证解决问题的办法。这也是构成持续研究发展的必要性。 如两个并存的理论，即每个个体天生是独特的，尊重个体的本身的独特性，承认每个个体的创造都是 不同的。而另外的理论则认为如果在不能通过例证来证明独特个体的独特性，独立个体的独特性是不 存在的，不尊重个体的本身的独特性 ，不承认个体之间的表面上的差异。 这里我们不可回避的有几个当代艺术的现象，审美的同一化、风格的同一化、类型的同一化、方法的 同一化等等，在中国当代艺术中涌现了大量的艺术家，但是鲜见独特的作品，在全球当代艺术环境中 也有一样的情况发生。独特的思维方式和经历时间的考证，弥足珍贵。 可持续想像是对应当代艺术中的这些问题，和当代艺术本身想像力的缺失，就媒体艺术在中国发展的 时间线索下，放弃所谓的个体独特性，深入到艺术家特殊时间的特殊创作中，在回顾与联接中找到可 持续发展的多种可能。 *公民与知识分子 米奇尼克说：“我的妥协途径是以现实主义作为一个起点。地缘政治学的现实是，我们不可能强大到 在波兰赶走苏联红军。我的妥协途径还拥有另外一个起点。它建立在我的一种确信之上，多元化的民 主必须面对错综复杂的现实并与之妥协。妥协哲学是一种认可犹豫的哲学。相比之下，激进主义的、 革命的、煽动的和暴力的 哲学，采取了更为简单容易的途径，正如我已经解释过的，它导向断头台而 非民主。” 这些问题的背后直接反映出知识分子与公民的某种关系，是否两个不同的界限之间承担了不同的责任 和价值？同样具备社会责任的因素，知识分子或者着民众都在其中，这也是构成这个展览的另外一个 原因，其中平视的纪录片角度或者多元的线性的扩展式风格，都在某种程度上构成了个体和集体的存 在。 什么才是更好的社会模式，个体和代表某种阶级与集体的群体意识是如何发生着变化的？！在汪建伟 的《生活在别处》和郑云瀚的《鸡西调查》中对模糊的界限，生存的错位和针对中国近代历史中出现 的‘农民’‘工人’这些基本的社会构成群体，进行的不同角度的调研。

邱志杰《西方》从东方的角度阐释一个乌托邦式的西方，或者印证了一个乌托邦式的东方。杨福东《 陌生天堂》对乌托邦想像的细微风景研究，曹恺《1968年制造》在自然景观与政治隐喻中存在的乌托 邦幻境。王郁洋《登月计划》对1969年美国登月的质疑。构成一种间接或者直接的线索，其中作品有 着相互解读与混淆的可能性，呈现了尽量多的想像空间的多维存在。 在这个方面我想通过这些展出的作品回应米奇尼克的理论，不讨论任何革命的可能性，只关注个体存 在的多样性对事实本身的质疑，针对事实作出的个人行动。自我的意识构成多元的社会基础，导致民 主的可能性。也同样形成了几个不同的知识分子理论之间的关系构成，参照如下知识分子的定义，任 意单一的对知识分子的定义显然都难以构成当代社会的综合问题： 知识分子研究专家爱德华•希尔斯（E.Shils）把知识分子定义为任一社会中颇为频繁地运用一般抽象 符号去表达他们对人、社会、自然和宇宙的理解的人。 路易斯•科塞更明确宣称，大学教授也不一定是知识分子，知识分子必须是“为了思想而不是靠了思想 而生活的人”。 美籍阿拉伯裔文化批评家艾德华•萨义德的界定是：“知识分子是具有能力‘向’公众以及‘为’公众 来代表、具现、表明信息、观点、态度、哲学或意见的个人，在扮演这个角色时必须意识到其处境就 是公开提出令人尴尬的问题，对抗（而不是产生）正统与教条，不能轻易被政府或集团收编，其存在 的理由就是代表所有那些惯常被遗忘或弃之不顾的人们和议题。知识分子这么做时根据的是普遍的原 则：在涉及自由与正义时，全人类都有权期望从世间权势或国家中获得正当的行为标准；必须勇敢地 指证、对抗任何有意或无意违犯这些标准的行为。” 福柯：“知识分子的工作不是去塑造他人的政治意志，而是通过他在自己研究领域的分析，对那些自 说自话的规则质疑，去打扰人们的精神习惯、他们行事与思想的方式，去驱散那些熟悉和已被接受下 来的东西，去重新检验那些规则和体制，在这一重新质疑的基础上（他在其中完成作为知识分子的特 殊任务），去参与政治意志的形成过程（他在其中扮演公民的角色）。” 萨特：当一个科学家在实验室里进行核试验研究时他不是一个知识分子，而当他在反对核战争的请愿 书上签名时就是一个知识分子。 马克斯•韦伯（M.Weber）：知识分子仅限于那些因为赫然成就而被誉为“文化瑰宝”的人，他们是社 会群体的精神领袖。 知识份子与公民的道路，也许本身就是理想国与现实社会之间的问题，是妥协或者些微的精英主意可 能达成的美好现实社会，知识份子为理想国或者1984提出的可能性都诠释了个体针对集体的愿望。如 当代艺术中存在于群体和个体之间的愿望，唯一缺失的是个体针对群体的愿望消失了！所以才有‘知 识分子都去哪里了？！’这样的问题，也可能是这个群体更加成熟了，已经完成了观念上转换。也可 能这些都是不可见的，因为我们根本无法再通过部分人的意愿来定位群体的意志，而群体意志之中往 往隐含着诸多可能性，多样本身就隐含在单一之中。 *新媒体形成的世界地图 古人司空图《二十四诗品》2对诗的系统论证，其中大量意境的推敲，可呈现古代文人诗歌的风骨，当 代艺术却少有系统理论来跟进如此大量出现的各种艺术形态。Michael Naimark先生曾经为洛克菲勒基 金会所做的全球新媒体艺术调研3，针对全球新媒体的发展给出了一个虚拟的世界地图。来自两个不同 领域的文本都影响着现在的《中国媒体艺术自1989》，也让这个项目具有不同的责任，针对社会的研 究和针对艺术家的研究，还有针对技术的研究等多个方面。 希望明确新媒体在这里的意思。首先是新媒体的构成，我认为的新媒体也许和很多人是不一致的。我 认为那些借助媒体手段的艺术，不过是将平面的艺术媒体化，在观念上并没有给现在的当代艺术与新 媒体艺术作出什么贡献，因为这样的艺术创作的方式前提是艺术家并不了解什么是媒体技术，这些新 媒体的技术包括：生物科技/A.I[人工智能]/ 虚拟现实等等的基本构成原理，或者与深奥一些的如天

体物理学/量子物理学等等知识相关的艺术。类似的创作多来自不了解这些知识，如将身体动作或者绘 画通过影像的方式表现或者在配上声音就被认为是新媒体。这种理论基本上来自于对摄影在时间和观 念上的界定而来。 另外，艺术家对新技术的兴趣，了解一些尖端技术的可能性，并将这种纯技术的可能转化为当代艺术 审美范畴的作品，这类作品大量的使用科技最新的现象加入视觉作品的创作，早期的作品有Jeffery Shaw的 Web of Life《网络生存》，作品即有最新的对媒体的互动性的使用，也有类似研究掌纹的功 能。但是是否这些就是新媒体艺术，是存在着疑问的，因为这样的作品表明了艺术家了解 新技术，但 是他们的作品对技术本身是否有所贡献？这类作品基本上是通过转换不同学科的知识应用，将一些非 视觉化的科学课题视觉化，引入到当代艺术的视觉／互动艺术范畴。 用简单的例子来说明我的观点，就是当一个更加简单开放的技术被发现的时候，必然就取代了那些繁 杂的不实用的技术模式。如linux取 代微软的操作平台，但是可能有人会质疑为什么取代并没有最终 形成，那是因为大量使用者的集体行为造成了新技术被运用的可能［群体行为导致了针对新技术的反 应，于其存在的社会环境、生活环境、他人影响等等因素有关，当然还有就是技术壁垒本身］，这个 方面要涉及的就是社会学范 畴和人类行为学方面的问题了。这也是导致自由与有限制的自由在观念上 冲突的根源。即获得绝对的自由，也要丧失固有的习惯和获益模式。我想可能这是一个问 题，是否在 获得自由的时候需要放弃固有的物质和思维方式给我们带来的便利，而这种便利是否阻碍了我们对自 由的探索？ 需要证实这些新媒体艺术与社会范畴的技术潮流之间的关系，需要比较新媒体艺术家的作品和现在已 知的技术产品到底有什么根本的不同。如Game Art游戏艺术和Game 游戏的比较就是非常直观 的，可 以从视觉界面到互动内容进行全面的比较。还有我们谈到的互动与虚拟现实等等方面，另外就是在艺 术的表象下我们能受到什么样的启发，可能这需要去了解很多与艺术无关的知识，但 是这些知识确是 未来必须的。 *可持续幻想的反思 从展览的观念和展览中的作品方面，有着很大的局限性。这些局限性来自知识的综合欠缺，来自大方 向的阐释与微观的现实问题，来自对已有的观念与技术的不了解，来自对艺术家的误读等等方面。当 然这些在一个策划的文章之中不能被详细的描述，导致了必然的阅读和理解的障碍。 作为对某种时间／历史／类型线索构成的研究，这个展览展示了从1999到2007年之间，艺术家在针对 不同方向探索，确立的当代艺术借助媒体可能性的类型。这里也没有用这些类型在全球的当代艺术状 况作出必要的比较，虽然其中存在着大量的相似性。即当代艺术在全球范围的类似表现，一种存在的 世界村global village的文化现象，已知的波谱艺术pop art / 观念艺术conceptual art / 行为艺术 performance art都有着从艺术门类来的类型模式等等。 但是文化的上下文关系与背景的历史因素，构成了这个展览的特殊性，整个展览中艺术家是完全针对 更加深入的当代中国的近况进行的行动，无论是以个体的想像／体验，或是社会学式的研究，都反应 了艺术家所做的努力。当然这些贡献并不如我们看到的那么明显，这也是缺憾之处。毕竟还是在当代 艺术的范畴内，无论是社会学的／诗意的／互动的，在当代艺术范畴内的这些创作，都为当代艺术提 供了更多的方法和可能，为当代艺术的公共性问题、社会责任提供了发展的基础。 这个展览并不针对当代艺术出现的热门问题，如全球化／跨领域／地区调查等。但是显然艺术家的创 作涉及的是这些问题的本身，不针对这些问题，就是不提供这些问题的表面解读，和符合潮流的文化 内部挑战［非针对文化内部问题的创作］，涉及这些问题确实又是不可避免的。还有与当代艺术相关 的一些话题，如当代艺术的当代性？中国艺术家的中国性？艺术家的社会责任？民主与公共问题？等 等实际问题。 这个展览涉及，而无法覆盖或者阐释的全部关联，也是这个展览本身的局限，点状的研究线索，只能 为现实的媒体艺术研究找到更加社会化／知识／类型等方面的线索，我们所能通过一个展览的展示， 希望提出的问题能够发散到更多的知识领域。 作为阶段性的策划，展示不可避免的片面呈现中国媒体艺术的片断。展览本身也可以作为当代艺术在 中国的一个试验的样本。单一类型发散的多样性，是当代中国的丰富社会现实的时间线索，是重叠的 精神家园的蓝本。

附录： 1. 《联合国人类环境会议》、《联合国环境与发展会议》和《可持续发展世界首脑会议》这三次联合 国会议一般被认为是国际可持续发展进程中具有里程碑性质的重要会议。 （1）《联合国人类环境会议》于1972年在瑞典斯德哥尔摩召开。当时人类面临着环境日益恶化、贫困 日益加剧等一系列突出问题，国际社会迫切需要共同采取一些行动来解决这些问题。这次会议就是在 这样的国际背景下由联合国主持召开的。通过广泛的讨论，会议通过了重要文件――《人类环境行动 计划》。这次会议之后，联合国根据需要迅速成立了联合国环境规划署（United Nations Environment Programme）。 （2）1992年联合国在巴西召开了《联合国环境与发展会议》。这次会议是根据当时的环境与发展形势 需要，同时为了纪念联合国人类环境会议20周年而召开的。会议通过了《21世纪议程》等重要文件。 根据形势需要，联合国在这次会议之后成立了《联合国可持续发展委员会》（Commission on Sustainable Development）。 （3）《可持续发展世界首脑会议》于2002年在南非召开。这次会议的主要目的是回顾《21世纪议程》 的执行情况、取得的进展和存在的问题，并制定一项新的可持续发展行动计划，同时也是为了纪念《 联合国环境与发展会议》召开10周年。经过长时间的讨论和复杂谈判，会议通过了《可持续发展世界 首脑会议实施计划》这一重要文件。 2. 二十四诗品 司空图 1.雄浑 大用外腓，真体内充。反虚入浑，积健为雄。具备万物，横绝太空。荒荒油云，寥寥长风。超以象 外，得其环中。持之非强，来之无穷。 2.冲淡 素处以默，妙机其微。饮之太和，独鹤与飞。犹之惠风，荏苒在衣。阅音修篁，美曰载归。遇之匪 深，即之愈希。脱有形似，握手已违。 3.纤穠 采采流水，蓬蓬远春。窈窕深谷，时见美人。碧桃满树，风日水滨。柳阴路曲，流莺比邻。乘之愈 往，识之愈真。如将不尽，与古为新。 4.沉著 绿杉野屋，落日气清。脱巾独步，时闻鸟声。鸿雁不来，之子远行。所思不远，若为平生。海风碧 云，夜渚月明。如有佳语，大河前横。 5.高古 畸人乘真，手把芙蓉。泛彼浩劫，窅然空踪。月出东斗，好风相从。太华夜碧，人闻清钟。虚伫神 素，脱然畦封。黄唐在独，落落玄宗。 6.典雅 玉壶买春，赏雨茅屋。坐中佳士，左右修竹。白云初晴，幽鸟相逐。眠琴绿阴，上有飞瀑。落花无 言，人淡如菊。书之岁华，其曰可读。 7.洗炼 如矿出金，如铅出银。超心炼冶，绝爱缁磷。空潭泻春，古镜照神。体素储洁，乘月返真。载瞻星 辰，载歌幽人。流水今日，明月前身。 8.劲健 行神如空，行气如虹。巫峡千寻，走云连风。饮真茹强，蓄素守中。喻彼行健，是谓存雄。天地与 立，神化攸同。期之以实，御之以终。 9.绮丽 神存富贵，始轻黄金。浓尽必枯，淡者屡深。雾余水畔，红杏在林。月明华屋，画桥碧阴。金尊酒

满，伴客弹琴。取之自足，良殚美襟。 10.自然 俯拾即是，不取诸邻。俱道适往，著手成春。如逢花开，如瞻岁新。真与不夺，强得易贫。幽人空 山，过雨采蘋。薄言情悟，悠悠天钧。 11.含蓄 不著一字，尽得风流。语不涉己，若不堪忧。是有真宰，与之沉浮。如满绿酒，花时反秋。悠悠空 尘，忽忽海沤。浅深聚散，万取一收。 12.豪放 观花匪禁，吞吐大荒。由道反气，虚得以狂。天风浪浪，海山苍苍。真力弥满，万象在旁。前招三 辰，后引凤凰。晓策六鳌，濯足扶桑。 13.精神 欲返不尽，相期与来。明漪绝底，奇花初胎。青春鹦鹉，杨柳楼台。碧山人来，清酒深杯。生气远 出，不著死灰。妙造自然，伊谁与裁。 14.缜密 是有真迹，如不可知。清露未晞。要路愈远，幽行为迟。语不欲犯，思不欲痴。犹春于绿，明月雪 时。 15.疏野 惟性所宅，真取不羁。控物自富，与率为期。筑室松下，脱帽看诗。但知旦暮，不辨何时。倘然适 意，岂必有为。若其天放，如是得之。 16.清奇 娟娟群松，下有漪流。晴雪满竹，隔溪渔舟。可人如玉，步BD寻幽。载瞻载止，空碧悠悠，神出古 异，淡不可收。如月之曙，如气之秋。 17.委曲 登彼太行，翠绕羊肠。杳霭流玉，悠悠花香。力之于时，声之于羌。似往已回，如幽匪藏。水理漩 洑，鹏风翱翔。道不自器，与之圆方。 18.实境 取语甚直，计思匪深。忽逢幽人，如见道心。清涧之曲，碧松之阴。一客荷樵，一客听琴。情性所 至，妙不自寻。遇之自天，泠然希音。 19.悲慨 大风卷水，林木为摧。适苦欲死，招憩不来。百岁如流，富贵冷灰。大道日丧，若为雄才。壮士拂 剑，浩然弥哀。萧萧落叶，漏雨苍苔。 20.形容 绝伫灵素，少回清真。如觅水影，如写阳春。风云变态，花草精神。海之波澜，山之嶙峋。俱似大 道，妙契同尘。离形得似，庶几斯人。 21.超诣 匪神之灵，匪几之微。如将白云，清风与归。远引若至，临之已非。少有道契，终与俗违。乱山乔 木，碧苔芳晖。诵之思之，其声愈希。 22.飘逸 落落欲往，矫矫不群。缑山之鹤，华顶之云。高人画中，令色氤氲。御风蓬叶，泛彼无垠。如不可 执，如将有闻。识者已领，期之愈分。 23.旷达

生者百岁，相去几何。欢乐苦短，忧愁实多。何如尊酒，日往烟萝。花覆茅檐，疏雨相过。倒酒既 尽，杖藜行歌。孰不有古，南山峨峨。 24.流动 若纳水輨，如转丸珠。夫岂可道，假体如愚。荒荒坤轴，悠悠天枢。载要其端，载同其符。超超神 明，返返冥无。来往千载，是之谓乎。

Opening Project Even Structure: A Jiao & Yangtao 开幕式计划 啊角与杨涛 2007

Jelly.Data 胶装数据 Interactive Installation for Sustainable Imagination Exhibition 互动装置 concept 观念 : aaajiao, yang2 啊角 杨涛 interactive 互动设计 : aaajiao, yang2 啊角 杨涛 sound 声音设计 : yang2 杨涛 computer graphics, video editing 图像及编辑 : aaajiao 啊角

Cao Kai <made in 1968> 曹恺 《1968制造》 2005

Made in 1968 六八年制造 video 单屏幕录像 9’45” Work Group 工作群 Director 导演/ CaoKai 曹恺 CG Model Builder 模型建构 /WangYijun 王宜军 CG Rander 材质渲染/Zhou Qiushi 周秋实 Digital Video Compositer 数字视频合成 / CaoKai 曹恺 Matte Painter MATTE绘画/DingWeijing XuBaihong丁威静 徐白虹 Computer Generated Imagery Supervisor CGI监督/ Caokai 曹恺 Visual Effect Supervisor 视觉效果监督/ Caokai CaoLei 曹恺 曹磊

Made in 1968 Cao Kai Thus do things flow away!

- Mao Zedong The Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge first started to build in 1960 and finished at the end of the year of 1968.

At that time, China was a poor and fractious fighter. In his East and the southeast, there were the UN collective Islands blocked chains and those threatenings of rebuilding the lost kingdom who undergone self-imposed hardships so as to strengthen their resolve.

In his south was a dissipated and lengthy subtropical bush fighting battlefield; in the southwest he also prepared one Himalaya dive to sweep the Ganges plain. But in his north, the original ally already reduced to a roared bear, making the attack posture.

But what left us to face the homestead is that several lonely ruined bridge piers lying in the lower level of Yangtze River after the Soviet Communists took the blueprint and promise away.

Therefore, A flock of blue ant like workers of the developing countries were under the excited state of the mixed nationalism complex of “Paddle one’s own canoe” and Chairman Mao’s communism ideality of “Mending the earth”. They took unprecedented nationwide strategies and military tactics of the human sea and completed this magnificent architecture within the inner Red China Iron Curtain.

This was an exhausting project ever been paid by tears and blood. It was the miracle in the big famine year of contemporary China. Together with the further H-bone explosion and the latter man-made satellite, they formed the three symbols of heroism in Chairman Mao’s time in the 20’s century.

The exterior shape of Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge itself was full of symbolism meaning— the political symbolism.

The three red flags flying on the bridgehead (General line, Great Leap Forward, People’s community) are the condensation of post Mao’s ideal. It was also the beginning of his gradually depart from his comrades. It fully presented some extreme ideals like betray and faith, amend and paranoia, dark and blaze, blood and steel.

The four big “Worker, Peasant, and Soldier” architecture clusters in both south and north bridge tower were meant for post Mao’s theory of “Continue on the revolution under proletarian autarchy.” The style mixed many elements concluded the French Romanism pictorial style, Russian Soviet city architecture; Nazi propaganda picture, Eisenstein’s montage feature and the Painted-face character in Peking Opera stroke a pose on the stage etc. It was the perfect combination of the real revolutionary Romanism and realism. It was the great gatherings of aesthetics of culture revolution. In the not very long future, it will be honored as the classic case listed in Chinese socialism art history.

The bridge was rusted by the time. Its politics’ symbolic meanings gradually faded away while the air of culture and history gradually dense.

Presently, except for its milestone position in the contemporary architecture bridge history, the bridge was more of its peculiar symbolize position in culture and history.

I am of the generation which born and grow with the Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge, (In another sense, we are the 1968 people). To concentrate on myself and relative media reflection is always one of my study subjects.

At the end of the year of 2004, I started to make draft and showed the virtual history of Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge and tried to rebuild the Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge on the computer’s screen.

My work group consisted of many computer image engineers, computer draftsman, non-lin-

ear editors, CG animator, and Landscaping Architect etc. Most of them came from those famous Universities and studios in Nanjing and covered many scholar fields.

In this computerized fictitious history, I divided the curriculum vitae into four times: the Virgin time, the Youth time, Post Utopia time, and the Ruins time.

The Virgin time (1968-1978) In 1968, it was in the prevailing peak of China culture revolution. Like a rising wind and scudding clouds, the Red Guards Movement finished its writing of the text of youth violence; the day to be exiled is coming.

Chairman Mao considered himself as the lonely monk. In order to realize his superman thought of Utopian ideal and the practice of his methodologies of continue on revolution for proletarian autarchy, he never felt sorry to take the expense to smash his half-life elaborately constructed country machine via the form of extreme great democracy. And he basically completed the deconstruction of the superstructure.

Actually, the Yangtze River Bridge and its derivative buildings (bridge tower, sculpture etc), being as the spiritual symbol of Chairman Mao’s time printed in several kinds of things.

And it became the relic symbol of a time in lack of materials. Among them, there were securities such as stamps, grain tickets, cloth tickets, shopping tickets .etc. Also many goods’ brands (cigarettes, envelop, aluminum lunch box, travel bags. etc.) The texts about the Yangtze River Bridge were translated into many kinds of languages and popularly received. It was considered as classic one and listed into the primary literacy textbook.

The image of the bridge was taken as the national card and printed in pictorials, books and notebook covers etc.

In summary, when the generation of 1968 still being the apple of their parents’ eyes, they also were favorite sons of this country, Antonio, one left-wing director from capitalism country, had ever been shooting the real virgin image of Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge.

The Youth time (1979-1989) Under the shinning sun at the end of 1970s, the spring of China, the Yangtze River Bridge was still alone and full of pieces and dust after the annihilation of mythology.

That was a broken Utopia bubble like time. The Communist Iron Curtain was unveiled cruelly and revealed its ferocious smile. After the supreme individual worship—Chairman Mao’s worship fell, those theories leech on to Chairman Mao’s ideal as well as other worships were also collapsed as Dominoes. A hero statue of this time gradually collapsed in succession.

The group sculptures on the bridge were covered by sun with ghastly dust. The bridge, the time’s favorite infant then reduced to a forgotten and neglected lonely youth. He was runtish and innutritious, seemed lonely and stubborn under the light shadow of flowing material wealth desire.

At this era, all things gradually lead to a time of mediocrity and raffish. People replaced the real tragic hero with farcical idols and comedic stars. The three upholding red flags were already reduced to past tense jokes and the forward gesture of “Workers, Peasants, and Soldiers”.

After doubt and negation for all suffering thoughts, the culture enlightenment shed light to the shadow of “walk up to the future.”

The day of youth was lengthy and tedious. The youth diary was watery and gloomy.

The uproar of 1989 went back to silence along with the complete vanish of a covey of students who then stride over the bridge and north forward to Beijing.

The Post Utopia time (1992- ?)

Before we came into the era of post Utopia, there is a whole three years the bridge was omitted in history. That is the black hole time of history loss which gulped down everything into thin air.

After the year of 1992, China was pulled on the quick track of high speed economy development by Deng Xiaoping and his theory followers. On the base of the already finished original accumulation of nation owned assets in Chairman Mao’s time. China was just like one galloping locomotive went on the rampage, moved forward courageously. It broke the deception of ideology and completed the gene mutation from the former industry era to information era.

In such a turn of social era, Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge was still lying in the lower Yangtze River day and night. As the bottle-neck of the aortic Beijing-Shanghai railway, the Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge increasingly can not bear more.

In 1989, the national railway stations carried out a load test for the bridge. This was a routine test for the bridge’s fresh body several years later. The result indicated a good life enginery for the bridge. However, When Heaven is about to place a great responsibility on a great man, it always first frustrates his spirit and will, exhausts his muscles and bones, exposes him to starvation and poverty, so does the bridge. Its highway road face was dilapidated and the bridge body was besmeared with dirt.

The same time, the second Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge was keeping paces with the time and running in high speed. It was about 15km away in lower Yangtze River. This bridge is the sibling of Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge. Though it inherited the mother of Yangtze River’s blood, its out appearance was totally different. The Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge was in fact one huge traditional stone arch bridge catabolized by steel rack materials, while the second Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge was a modern tightwire lift bridge with extreme simplistic style and features. Its Europeanize appearance turned out to be totally different consanguinity.

If we say that the image heading of Yangtze River Bridge is Chairman Mao’s Communism Utopia. Then the second Yangtze River Bridge was undoubtedly an approach full of bitter joy leading up to the earth village. On the road forward, there were full of signs as private，WTO, market etc. Though they were as close as siblings, they were not the products from the same era. The generation gap was so deep that it can not be overstepped easily.

Ruins time (? -?)

Several hundred years have passed by, the mushroom cloud diverges, the sunlight is gloomy, the whole shoot already ashes away.

The glacier blocked, the great river dried. Along the Yangtze River coast, there were innumerable millennium ruins. Some were submerged to hypertext trashes; or some were worshiped for a hypothesized grave. The main text and its links will ultimately void without any textual research.

The Yangtze River flowing to the east, the wave washed all the distinguished persons throughout thousands years. In the north shore of the city of Nanjing, the Yangtze River Bridge’s cadaver was still lying across the river. Being as a concrete existence, the bridge became one inseparable part, it was in harmony with the beautiful scenery in each shore, That was the huge wreckage supported by rusted steel framework. The bridge was the highway and railway bridge hinge for transportation and conveyance. Its practical value has already consumed up. The original existent meaning has been cleared up.

That was a grand holy land with beautiful scenery for those self-murders. The dying sun of Yangtze River was blood-red. There were the self-murder suffers, the desperate, selfabusers and the extraordinary, staggering on the bridge.

That was the memorial ceremony land for post people to visit and ponder on the past history. We were singing the short song, drinking the light liquor. We listened and concentrated to recall the unprecedented Red Sea Age. That was an unfrequented future view stage. Perhaps, we can hear a backstroke swimmer in the Yangtze River singing alone:

It was by a stream that the Master said---“Thus do things flow away!”

Annotation: China socialism art history: I consider that China socialism art history started at the end of 1930 by the wood engraving community in Yan’an Lu Xun Art academy. The aesthetics reached its peak during the great culture revolution. After the year of 1985, the sixth National Art Exhibition, it came into the decline era. Then in 1992, the China socialism art led by politics met its end. There were two symbols. One is Deng Xiaoping’s travel for the southern places. Then the economy value became the only standard. Another one was the Guangzhou Art Exhibition. After that, the exhibition form of folk and half political started to replace the authority of National Art Exhibition.

六八年制造 文/曹恺

逝者如斯夫 ——毛泽东

南京长江大桥，始建于一九六零年，完成于一九六八年末。 那时候，中国被异化为一个贫穷而倔强的愤怒战士。在他的东方和东南方是联合国的集体环岛封锁 链，和正在台湾卧薪尝胆的复国者的威胁；在他的南方是一个糜烂而漫长的亚热带丛林战场；在西南 他还必须准备着一次横扫恒河平原的喜马拉亚俯冲；而在他的北方，原来的盟友已经堕落为一只凶狠 咆哮、做攻击姿态的熊。 而每天套面对家园的，是前苏联的共产主义同志们卷走了蓝图和承诺后，在长江下游遗留下的那几个 孤零零的烂尾桥墩。 于是，一群蓝蚂蚁般的第三世界产业工人，在“独立自主自力更生”的民族主义情结和“修理地 球”的毛式共产主义理想混合的亢奋状态下，以空前的举国战略和人海战术，完成了这座在红色中国 铁幕内部的宏大建筑之创建。 这是一部禅精竭虑之泣血之作，是现代史上中国大饥馑年代的工程奇迹。在此之前的氢弹爆炸实验和 在此之后的人造地球卫星，与其一起成为二十世纪毛时代英雄主义外化的三大象征。 南京长江大桥的外部形态本身，就极具有象征意义——政治的象征意义。 其桥头飘扬的三面红旗（总路线、大跃进、人民公社）是毛后期思想的浓缩，也是他和其共同建构共 和国的同志们的分崩离析的开端，充分呈现了背叛与忠诚、修正与偏执、黑暗与烈火、鲜血与钢铁这 样一些终极意识。 南北桥头堡矗立的四座大型工农兵群雕，则意蕴着“在无产阶级专政下继续革命”的毛晚期理论，其 造型混合了法国浪漫主义图式、俄式苏维埃城雕、纳粹宣传画、爱森斯坦蒙太奇特写、京剧花脸亮相 等元素，是正真革命浪漫主义和革命现实主义的完美结合，为文化大革命美学之集大成者，在不久的 将来，被未来的艺术学学者奉为中国社会主义美术史上的经典案例。 时光锈蚀了大桥，政治的象征意义渐渐褪色，而人文历史的气息却逐渐浓郁。 如今，除了其在中国现代建筑史、桥梁史上的里程碑式的地位，更多的是其在人文历史上的奇特的象 征地位。 作为和南京长江大桥共同出生、共同成长的一代人（另一种意义上的“六八年人”），关注自身极其 自身的多媒材映射，一直是我的一个研究课题。 二００四年末，我开始在计算机上策划虚拟南京长江大桥的历史，试图在计算机的荧屏上重新实现南 京长江大桥。 我为之组建的工作群，包括多位计算机图形工程师、计算机绘图师、非线性编辑师、CG动画师、景观 建筑设计师等，来自南京多所高校和工作室，涵盖了多个学术领域。 在计算机图形图像所虚拟的这部历史中，我将其履历断章为四个时代。童贞时代、青春时代、后乌托 邦时代、遗址时代。 童贞时代（1968-1978） 一九六八年，正是中国文化大革命的盛世之巅，而风起云涌的红卫兵运动，在完成了自身的青春残酷 文本之撰写后，被放逐和流亡的日子已经远远到来。 自诩为孤僧的毛泽东为了其超人思维的乌托邦理想，为了其在无产阶级专政下继续革命的方法论之实 践，不惜通过大民主的极端模式，砸碎了他自己半生苦心孤旨建立的国家机器，基本完成了对执政党 上层建筑的解构。 其时，长江大桥极其衍生建筑（桥头堡、雕塑等）作为毛时代的精神象征被印刷在多种物品之上，成 为一个物质匮乏时代的遗物标识，这些物品中有邮票、粮票、布票、购物券等有价证券，多种物品的 商标（卷烟、信封、铝制饭盒、旅行包……），而关于长江大桥的文本，被翻译为多种文字，广为传

播，直至作为经典被收入于小学识字课本；而其形象作为一个国家的明信片被刊印于画报、书籍、笔 记本封面等。 总之，当六八年出生的一代人是父母的宝贝的时候，它也是这个国家充满荣耀的宠儿。 一个来自资本主义国家的左翼电影导演安东尼奥尼，在其纪录片《中国》里留下了关于南京长江大桥 童贞时代的真实影像。 青春时代（1979-1989） 在1970年代末的中国之春（或曰“北京之春”）的明媚阳光下，长江大桥却孤独地落满了神话湮灭后 的碎片和尘埃。 那是一个乌托邦泡沫般破灭的年代，共产铁幕被残忍地一层层地揭开，显露出其狰狞的微笑。在最大 的个人崇拜——毛的崇拜被打倒后，依附于毛主义理论而存在的其他崇拜亦如多米诺骨牌般倒塌，一 个时代的英雄塑像纷纷崩溃。 大桥上的群雕被阳光蒙上了惨白的灰尘，大桥从一个时代的宠爱的幼儿，沦为一个被遗忘、被忽略的 孤独青年。它的发育苍白而营养不良，在物欲横流的光影里显得落寞而倔强。 在一个逐渐走向平庸和艳俗的时代里，人们用闹剧的偶像和喜剧的明星取代了真正悲剧意义上的英 雄。被高举的三面红旗早已沦为过去时态的笑料，工农兵前倾的姿势显得僵硬而不合时宜。 在怀疑一切、否定一切的痛苦思考之后，人文启蒙光亮照亮了那群“走向未来”的影子。 青春的日子冗长而乏味，青春的日记平淡而灰暗。 一九八九年的喧嚣，随着一队跨越大桥，步行北上的学生群的烟消云散，一切回归于寂静。 后乌托邦时代（1992-？） 在进入后乌托邦时代之前，有整整三年时间在大桥的历史上被省略，那是历史遗失的黑洞时代，吞噬 一切而无影无踪。 一九九二年之后，中国被邓极其理论继承者拉上了经济高速发展的快轨，在毛时代完成的国有资产原 始积累的基础上，中国象一列奔腾的火车头横冲直撞、勇猛精进，撞破了意识形态的虚伪面幕，完成 了从前工业时代到信息时代的基因突变。 在这样的社会转型时期，依然昼夜横卧在长江下游的南京长江大桥，作为京沪铁路大动脉的瓶颈，日 益不堪重负。 一九八九年,国家铁道部对大桥进行了载重检测试验，这是一次事隔多年后肉身的例检，结果表明其生 命机能良好。然则既劳其筋骨，有饿其体肤。其公路路面破损不堪，桥身被涂满污垢。 与此同时，在其下游约十五公里处，与其相媲的长江二桥正以与时俱进的高速度横空出世，这是一座 与大桥同母异父的兄弟之桥，承传了长江之母的血脉，然而其外观却迥异，大桥在桥梁建筑意义上其 实是一座被钢架材料异化的超大型传统石拱桥，而长江二桥却是一座现代极简主义风貌的钢索拉吊式 大桥，其欧化的外观呈现了遽然不同血缘。 如果说长江大桥的意象性方向是毛式的共产主义乌托邦，那么长江二桥无疑是通向地球村的一条充满 痛楚快感的途径，在其前进路标上贴满了私有化、入世、市场这样一些符号。他们虽然亲近若兄弟， 却是不同时代的产物，其代沟如江水之深，难以逾越。 遗址时代（？-？） 数百年过去了，蘑菇云散去，日光暗淡，一切已经灰飞烟灭。 冰川堵塞、大江枯竭。长江沿岸，千年遗址无数。或湮没于超文本垃圾；或被奉供于某个虚拟墓穴。 正文极其链接最终将虚幻无考。 大江东去，浪淘尽千古风流人物。石城北岸，南京长江大桥尸骸依然横卧江上，作为一个实物的存 在，融入江岸如画之风景，成为风景一个无法分割的组成部分。 那是一具被锈蚀的钢铁骨架支撑的庞然残骸，作为交通和运输的公路铁路桥梁枢纽，其实用价值已经 消耗殆尽，其本来的存在意义已经消解。 那是一个自杀者风景壮丽的圣地，大江落日，残阳如血，踯躅于桥上的徇情者、绝望者、自虐者、非 常者。 那是一个后人类凭吊历史的祭祀地。用短歌、用淡酒、用聆听、用注目，来缅怀那个史无前例的红海 洋时代。 那是一个人迹罕至的未来观景台。或许，可以听见某个长江上的仰泳者在独自长吟：

子在川上曰，逝者如斯夫！

Bridge: From mythology to allegory —with regard to Made in 1968 Zhu Zhu Ⅰ The Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge is a mythology in reality and an allegory in the field of art.

Nowadays, the mythology is beginning to fade, while the air of allegory is gradually dense.

The river water can be treated as the time itself which pouring ceaselessly and have the two’s distance diffused. As the bridge was gradually far away in the other shore, allegory is being a way for us to see the bridge in this shore.

The bridge is a miracle in the history of bridge. The construction took nearly ten years.

There are upper highway bridge (4589m in length), vehicle road (15m in width), and pedestrian way (2m) in each side. The railway bridge in the lower level is about 6772m in length, 14m in width. While the railway bridge has double track, two opposite trains were available to run simultaneously. The main bridge in the surface of river is 1577m in length. The left part is the bridge approach. The great bridge finished as the longest double use bridge for highway and railway and recorded in Guinness list. On September, 1958, the Chinese government decided to construct this bridge. When the main project—the center river bridge pier was set on forth, China was in its famine year. The bridge lack of construction fee and the material supply. As to the political situation, outwardly, our relationship with the Soviet counter part is broken. Internally, our country’s inner culture revolution broke out with aggravated party fight. The riot is also threatening the bridge construction ground. It was under such a complicated hard time, that the bridge construction finished at last, just like the wonderful scenery blossomed in the waste. The fact is surrealistic and legendary; it can be said a mythology. And we also can imagine what startling cost we’ve paid in the back of mythology of reality. Just as the 25,000 kilometers Long March before, during the bridge construction, there existed one long name list of the sacrifice. Also a variety of statistics of the bridge haven’t public yet.

There’s one old photo which showed the celebrated scene that year when the bridge was put into transportation. The photo was shot in the mid air. Amid the net like steel structure, there were ant-like people crowded there. Though their complexion can not be seen in the photo, we can imagine that they must be exciting and proud to their heart’s content. The image of Chairman Mao was hanging in the air. His poem line was brushed into one huge eye-catching slogan across the bridge body. That is “A bridge will fly to span the north and south, Turning a deep chasm into a thoroughfare”. According to the then Xinhua Agency’s daily news: On the morning of 29th, Nov, 1968. More than 50 thousand Nanjing soldiers and people attended in the celebration in the rain. As it was finished, the red signal flare was soaring. Through the sound of burning firecrackers, gong and drum, more than one hundred floats were gradually driving through the highway bridge. It was full of “Worker, Peasant, and Soldier” representatives and Red Guard. “In a sudden, river south and river north, bridge on and bridge below, car in and car out, all of them were deep in delight. Also followed with a great hurrahs which shaken the ground and soaring to the sky.

“Long live Great Chairman Mao!” The finish of the bridge construction was firstly being treated as “Chairman Mao’s another great victory of his revolutionary route.” Actually, from the day one when the construction was put into practice, it has acted as a role in political mythology.

That was about chairman Mao’s deity position and all about the “Self-reliance” nation complex，“Human beings conquer all”， and “Utopia”. The bridge’s balanced and symmetric form，together with the top echo bridge towers，can be seen as one new style sacred altar for prayers or one great powerful magic sword. Not the same as those ancient miraculous architecture like Great Wall and Tian’An Men Gate (Beijing). The Nanjing Yangtze

River Bridge is the real new thing born in the Chairman Mao’s time. It was based on industry technology and took steel as the materials. It greatly expressed the characteristics of the aesthetics of totalitarianism in the machinery time. As for the art performance at that time, the bridge stands as a giant hero cross the surface of the river, just like the poem line “Holding light ten thousand crags and torrents”. Then the factories in each two shores were emitting out dense smoke. This scene is now considered as the critical things for the city-planning and consciousness of environmental protection. But at that time, it was only considered as a form of beautiful image. The industry was romanticized; the machines formed the soul’s paradise also the totem of the future world.

If this construction was just intend to show that nowadays is better than the past.

That the new administration’s industry achievements surpassed the old one in the aspect of land and wealth .Maybe the Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge is unanimous to Eiffel (Paris).

However, as we all know that, the Eiffel does not maintain any realistic function except being as Paris World Trade Fair’s center mark and the symbol of capitalism spirit. (It was only later on, the Eiffel was installed with antenna of radio and television station. Only after then the Eiffel become one travel spot with affluent profit. The Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge played a quintessential realistic function the time when it was finished. It was the transportation life line leading through south and north China. The bridge played a very important social role especially for those places which the economy development was relatively much faster. As one relative report in 2004 proved that once the highway bridge was obstructed for ten minutes, the Nanjing downtown area’s traffic would be lost in serious traffic paralysis. If it closed for more than one hour, the whole Jiangsu province’s traffic will tremendous be affected. Once the railway closed for one minute would cause a loss of several hundred thousand RMB. If closed for ten minutes, the life line of east China railway would be paralyzed. If the Highway Bridge and Railway Bridge closed at the same time, the result would be too terrible to imagine. As the bridge played such an important role, the aftermath comes that it can not take complete measures to mend the bridge, which just sounds like a Kafka’s paradox.

Now today is thirty-seven years after the finish of bridge construction. The bridge was gradually aging after so many years’ heavy traffic burden. Its body has been mottled and old. There ever were two girder supports changed for their serious deformed appearance.

Many railings, Illuminator pillar and relief were damaged. Even in some places, the inside reinforcing steel bars were exposed; the crack place simply bound with iron wire. We also can see the falling cement block pieces near the bridge tower. Thousands of road lamp stands were nearly cracked over by the vehicles.

The bridge is undoubtedly accelerating the aging speed. It will not take a long time that the bridge will turn out to be ruins. At the same time, the second Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge which is 11 km away in lower reaches of the river opened in 2001. There were also several bridges appeared in the surroundings. We can imagine that one day; the bridge will get rid off its realistic function and turned out to be foot visiting scenery point. People can come here to memorize the past and have a rest. It will become decadent and lost its mythology aura. The falling relief will be treated like antiques and become people’s collections. The bridge will become the aesthetic space, huge antique shelf, and wallless museums. It will become a relic and a ruin on the river. And the ruin is always the favorite materials for the modern allegory. Walter Benjamin said: “Allegory in the realm of spirit just as the ruins to the realm of materials”. Ⅱ Began from the end of 2004; Cao Kai (Nanjing youth artist) led a work group to devote to one work subjected as Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge, resulted in the form of ten minutes video. It was shown on the 2nd China Art Triennium Exhibition in Nanjing Museum in the spring of 2005. The exhibition was named as “Archaeology of the Future.” In the video, the images of the bridge were totally made by computer. Owing to so far that the bridge

construction statistics were still in secret. It was really time-consuming for them to measure the structure proportion relationship of each part. The specific problems of each aspect were also complicated and complex, it weighed up a small project. The workers who ever experienced such kind of collective cooperation seemed to partly review the bridge’s real builder’s mental efforts in those years. No doubt that this is only the realization of the shrink, planar, and dummy scene. It was hardly far to mention in the same breath with the old one.

In this short video, the appearance of the bridge was peeled off from the realistic environment and newly endowed with strange sights. These sights belonged to the realm of pure nature; they were the sere and ramous lands, desolate desert, rotten rocks physiognomy, thin snow, storm weather, the ice age, seawater, and Gobi etc. They alternated to appear around the bridge, or to say that, the bridge was shifted to this bizarre and original scene. Every time when the scenery was on the verge of change, the screen let in Chairman Mao’s poem segments. This form was just like drama text’s spotted headings in each fold. And also we can treat it as the implying historical quotations. The poem was mirrored with the transient image in the sky. In the clash state of sun and cloud, the cloud shadow and rays of sunshine ceaselessly passed by the bridge body and the earth’s surface.

The artist himself has clear understandings and ideas about the choice of subject matter and its theme. He named the bridge with “the heroism symbol hidden in unconsciousness.”

The same time, dealing with his kind of theme was also an implying for the loss of history memory at large. The artist himself was born in 1969. We can say that he was in the generation growing together with the bridge. “I divide the history of the bridge into four times” ① Cao Kai said: 1. “My present work is condensed in these four historical times; it was in a ten minutes virtual video form.” We can see that this is a work of allegory creation on the carrier of bridge. He was to pour out those forgotten memories; those heroism spirit which people of this generation ever deeply moved but already inexistent now. It was a trip of self-spirit grubbing. He also took considerations for the style and made it more concretionary and less visual joy.

Cao Kai was always concerned with those themes such as the reinterpretation of the past or the relations between the past and present. In 1998, he held his Individual Exhibition —“The concealed chapter—the commemoration of Li Yu, the emperor of South Tang Dynasty.” He used the artistic conception of the South Tang Dynasty Emperor, who was renowned as the poetry king to reflect the daily life in contemporary cities. In Cao’s “summer in1969”, which finished in 2002, he found out one displaceable maniac expression between the western rock concert live and the mass movement of culture revolution.

(This new discovery is really acuminous and powerful to express one universal aspect of human nature). Then in 2003, Cao Kai finished his “China Channel”. It was about one girl with infantile autism together with controversial things alluded through television screen.

The two were arranged together through double menu, and then we can come to a connotative conclusion within the strong contrast. From 2001 to 2005, he was shooting “Resting Place”. Through tracing one 1980s’ sinister gang’s head life in and out of prison (also one pioneer poet), it revealed the mystery of our life and reality. All these things were based on today and the reality. He searched for the meaning of the future through the comparison, collision and interlace with the past. Politics being one apparent dimension and it always run through his works.

But, however, as we all know that, the artist’s beforehand thought and plan for the subject matters (or we named as one rational frame in advance) is only the key to creative work. Once came into the real process of creation, the artist himself is bound to split, fight and depart with it. And another evermore proven and meaningful fact of creation is that the more magnificent the plan, the microcosmic it will be, the more specific the plan, the more macro it will be. As my point of view, it is nearly impossible to condense the “Four times” in ten minutes. I suppose, during the process of creation, the artist was also clearly recognized this problem. Now, according to its ultimate effect, we might

call it a sinfonia, a prelude to the allegory drama, one expectant jumping-off point of this series.

As to say the style of work, the perfect tone was still dense. The form was like the fantasy of prolonged photography. The bridge itself was always being a solid and quiescent existence, and its surrounded sceneries changed at very fast speed, just like one floating natural history.

When I thought the intention and subconscious within the work, I thought the most important thing is that the artist did the revivification and cleanout work. This meant that he intended to make the bridge as one born thing, which was an effort in a state of zero.

(Rolan Barthea ) When he shifted the bridge from real environment with one imaginary level or nipper, he also completed one imaginary restoration. The bridge was no longer shoulder the task being as transportation life line of north and south. The empty bridge body no longer board any cars or pedestrians. It was also to liberate the bridge from the stress of political mythology. Let the bridge depart from all the man-made and exhibit itself amid the natural scenery.

It is just like we managed to let one exhausted and suffering person to return to the hug of nature. He received the therapy of original natural scenery. In a state without any civilization’ dirt and pressure, he gained himself a while of tranquility and forgot those whirlpool and suffocative memory. It can say that his body and soul was depurated for a while. The bridge appeared in the video was similar to this kind of nature-return man. For a long time, the bridge was tortured with overfull of realistic assignments and political missions and totally changed. Its position in reality was just like one loyal super servant who never left his position till the day of death. And the artist was exerted to call up its conscious of leave and escape, so that it can finish the self-clean work. So the bridge can revitalize as the divinity of the matter itself. After Getting rid off double bond service of the reality and politics, the bridge then came into one single and individual life, it being itself and being empty within the pure nature time. Moreover, the bridge became the aesthetic object with newly affused meaning. And this time, the affused meaning is no longer originated in mythology of reality but from art allegory.

In this piece of work, I feel the advent of some allegory. But it just like the cloud shadow ceaselessly fleet in the picture but never really come down and in amalgamation with the bridge. In my view, this series is valuable to expect. The Nanjing Yangtze River Bridge is a prime subject full of historical and community memories. It was bound to cultivate a variety of crossheads and must be of infinite abundant possibilities. If only the concealed logistic links can be tightened more, also the imagination space can be unfolded layer upon layer; it will be an unceasingly “Arabian nights” story telling.

December in 2005 Cao kai took the decline time of Chairman Mao, Deng Xiaoping, and post-Deng Xiaoping’ time also the future of bridge with “Virginity time”,” Youth time”, “Post-Utopia time or Gray time”, “Ruins time”. See also the note that Cao’s once conversation with Zuo Jing.

桥：从神话到寓言 ——关于《六八年制造》 文/朱朱 Ⅰ 大桥在现实中是一个神话，在艺术中则是一个寓言。如今，神话正在褪色，而寓言的氛围渐浓，江水 正可以视为时间本身，奔流不息，扩散着两者之间的距离。当神话在彼岸渐行渐远，寓言成为了我们 在此岸亦即在此时此地、观看大桥的一种方式。 大桥本身的确是世界桥梁史上的一个工程奇迹，建造历时近十年，上层的公路桥长4589米，车行道宽 15米，两侧各有2米多宽的人行道；下层的铁路桥长6772米，宽14米，铺有双轨，可容两列火车同时对 开。其江面上的正桥长1577米，其余为引桥。该桥建成后以世界上“最长的公铁两用桥”载入《吉尼 斯世界记录大全》。一九五八年九月，中国政府决定兴建此桥，一九六0年九月主要工程江心桥墩动工 时，正值中国的大饥荒年代，建设资金缺乏，建筑材料供应紧张，在政治局势方面，外部是与苏联的 关系破裂，内部则是文化大革命激烈的派性斗争，引起的动乱波及到大桥工地，正是在这极为复杂艰 难的状况之下，大桥最终得以建成，如同荒凉中的锦绣。这个事实本身具有超现实性，传奇色彩，堪 称现实之中的神话。而我们完全可以想像，神话背后的代价一定是触目惊心的，正如昔日的两万五千 里长征一样；在建桥过程中，一定留下了一份长长的殉职者的名单，这名单与大桥的各项数据一起未 获公开。 有一幅旧照片显示了当年大桥通车的庆典场面，那是一次从半空完成的俯拍，在网状的钢筋构架之 间，挤满了蚂蚁般的人群；虽然照片不可能呈现出那些面孔的表情，但是可以想像他们面孔上的兴奋 和自豪，这在当时是真正发自内心的表情。毛泽东的肖像悬于高处，他的那行诗句“一桥飞架南北， 天堑变通途”，被刷成一道醒目的巨幅标语横贯桥身。根据新华社当日的消息，在一九六八年十二月 二十九日这个上午，南京市五万多军民冒雨参加了庆祝大会，大会结束之后，红色的信号弹腾空而 起，在鞭炮和锣鼓声中，一百多辆装满工农兵代表和红卫兵小将的彩车徐徐通过公路桥。“顿时，大 江南北，桥上桥下，车内车外，一片欢腾。‘伟大领袖毛主席万岁！万岁！万万岁！’的欢呼声震撼 大地，响彻云霄。” 大桥的竣工首先被视为“毛主席革命路线的又一次伟大胜利”，实际上，从建造的那一天起，它就已 经开始扮演了政治性的角色，它构成了造神运动的一环，它是政治神话的一个组成部分：关于毛泽东 的神性地位，关于“自力更生”的民族情结，关于“人定胜天”，关于乌托邦……它那平衡、对称的 结构形式，连同耸立在两端遥相呼应的桥头堡，正可以看做一座用于供奉的新式神坛、或一件法力无 边的法器。与长城或天安门那样的古代奇迹相比，它是真正诞生于毛泽东时代的新事物，以工业技术 为本，以钢铁为材料，彰显机器时代极权美学的特征。在当时的艺术表现中，大桥以“万水千山只等 闲”的巨人英雄姿态跨越江面，而两岸的工厂烟囱喷吐着浓烟，这种在今天为城市规划或环境保护意 识所诟病的东西，在当初则是一种美感十足的意象，工业罗曼司化了，机器构成了生命的乐园，也构 成了未来世界的图腾。 在意图说明“今胜于昔”，新政权的工业成果超过了旧政权的土地财富方面，它也许与埃菲尔铁塔相 一致。然而，我们知道，埃菲尔作为巴黎当年“世界博览会”的中心标志和资本主义精神象征以外， 并不具有真正的现实功能（只是到了后来，才装上了广播电台和电视台的天线杆，才作为利润颇丰的 旅游地点），而长江大桥在建成后的确担任了极其重要的现实功能，它作为沟通中国南北交通的命脉 之一，尤其是经济发达的华东地区来说，具有举足轻重的地位。2004年的一次相关报道证实，如果公 路桥封闭10分钟，南京市区便会陷入严重的交通瘫痪，封闭一小时以上，整个江苏省的交通将受到巨 大影响；而铁路桥封闭1分钟将造成几十万元的损失，封闭10分钟，华东地区的铁路命脉将陷入瘫痪； 如果公铁两用桥同时封闭，后果将无法设想。这种重要性所带来的后果之一，就是无法对大桥进行彻 底地整修，这听起来就像是一个卡夫卡式的悖谬。 如今，已是大桥建成后的第三十七年，它因为担负着过于沉重的交通功能而日渐显出了老态，桥身已 经斑驳、陈旧，曾经有两孔钢梁支座因为严重变形而被更换，多处护栏杆、灯柱、浮雕遭受到损坏， 有些甚至裸露出里边的钢筋，断裂处仅仅用铁丝简单地捆绑，桥头堡附近地带，随处可见从桥体上掉 落的水泥块；整个公路桥面的上千座路灯灯座，几乎全被车辆撞裂开。 它无疑正加速着老化，它离真正成为一座废墟的日子并不很远。与此同时，位于大桥下游11公里处的 南京长江二桥已于2001年通车，周边地区也另有数座大桥建成，我们完全可以设想，有一天，它将完 全卸除现实功能，成为步行参观的景区，成为人们来此追忆、凭吊、休憩之地，它变得垂危而颓败，

完全失去神话的光环，其身上剥落的浮雕将会像古董般成为人们收藏的对象，它将变成审美的空间， 硕大的博古架，无墙的博物馆，它将成为一个遗址，一座江上的废墟，而废墟正是现代寓言式创作最 为偏爱和最常涉及之处，“寓言在精神王国里，犹如废墟在物的王国里。”（瓦尔特·本雅明） Ⅱ 从二00四年末开始，由南京的青年艺术家曹恺带领的一个工作群，投入到以南京长江大桥为主题的一 件作品的制作之中，其成果以十分钟的Video形式，播映在二00五年春季举办于南京博物馆的第二届中 国艺术三年展上（这个展览以“未来考古学”Archaeology of The Future来命名）。片中大桥的形像 完全由电脑来制作，由于大桥的建造数据迄今仍然处于保密状态，单就测定它各部分构造之间的比例 关系已是一件很费功夫的事情，各方面的细节问题同样复杂和繁琐，堪称一项小工程，经历这样一次 集体协作过程的工作者们，似乎是部分地重温了当年大桥的真正建造者们的心力过程，固然，这仅仅 是一种缩微的、平面的、虚拟性的场景实现，远不能与后者相提并论。 在这个短片之中，大桥的外观得以从现实环境中剥离出来，重新被赋予其陌生的景观，这些景观属于 纯自然的范畴：干枯龟裂的土地、荒凉的沙漠、风化岩石的地貌、薄雪和暴风雪的天气、冰封时分， 海水，戈壁……它们交替出现在大桥的周围，或者说，大桥被移入这些迥异而原始的风景之中。在每 次景观变迁之际，屏幕嵌入毛泽东的诗词片段，这个形式正如戏剧文本在其每一折所点出的标题，但 也可以被视为起暗示作用的历史引文；与此相映的是天空中瞬息万变的景像，太阳与云层恍然处在相 生相克的状态里，云影和霞光不停地掠过桥身和地表。 关于这个题材的选择，及其要传达的主题，艺术家本人有着明确的认识与构想，他将大桥称做“一种 被无意识隐藏的英雄主义象征”，同时，处理这个题材也是对一种历史意识普遍失忆的存在的提示， 艺术家本人出生于一九六九年，可以说是与大桥共同生长的一代，“我将桥的历史分为四个时期”。 ① “我现在的工作，是浓缩这四个历史时代，虚拟在一部十分钟的视频之中”。我们可以从中了解 到，这是一次寓言式的创作，借助于大桥这个载体，他所要诉说的，是已然被忘却的记忆，是感染过 这一代的、如今已经不存的英雄主义精神，是对自我精神历程的一次考掘。而在风格上，他同样有所 考虑：更凝固、更少视觉愉悦感。 对过去的重新解读，或者说过去和现在之间的关系一直是曹恺关注的主题，在他于1998年举办的《隐 世之章——纪念李煜》主题性个展上，他就曾经以那位被称为“词中之帝”的南唐君王的意境来观照 当代城市的日常生活。而在完成于2002年的《六九年之夏》里，他在一场西方的摇滚音乐会现场和文 化大革命群众运动之间找到了一种可换置的癫狂表情（这一发现实在是敏锐而有力的，揭示出带有普 遍性的人性中的一面）；及至《中国频道》（2003年），一个自闭症的少女和以电视荧屏来指涉的 风波事件并通过双画面的形式并置在一起，在某种强烈的反差中交代出一个隐而不显的结论。而从 2001年到2005年一直在拍摄的《死无葬身之地》，通过对一个上世纪八十年代黑帮首领（同时也是一 位先锋诗人）监狱内外的生涯进行追踪，揭示出我们的生命与现实之谜。所有这些都可以说是立足于 现实和今天，而在与过去的对比、碰撞、交织之中寻找意义与未来的作品，而政治做为显在的一维， 始终贯穿于他的这些作品之中。 不过，正如我们所知道的，艺术家们对题材所作的预先的思考与构想（或者我们称之为一个预设的理 性框架）只是开启创作的钥匙，一旦进入到真正的创作过程之中，艺术家本人就注定与之分裂、搏 斗、偏离。而另一个经常被验证的、有意味的创作事实是，构想越宏大，最终产生的越微观，而构想 越细小，最终产生的越宏观。在我看来，想要在一个十分钟的长度中浓缩“四个时期”的愿望，几乎 是一件不可能之事。我猜想，在这件作品的制造过程之中，艺术家亦已清晰地意识到这个问题，如 今，从这件作品最终呈现的效果而言，我们不妨将之称为“一个序曲”，一出寓言剧的前奏，一个可 期待的系列的起点。 而就风格而言，作品的唯美调子依然很浓，在形式上有一种类似于延时摄影的错觉，大桥本身始终是 一个固定、静止的存在，而周围的景色处在飞速变幻之中，好像一部流动的自然史。 当我思考着已然实现于这件作品之中的意图或潜意识时，我以为，最重要的是艺术家所做的一种“还 原”与“清洗”。这意思是指他意欲使大桥成为一件原本之物、一种零度状态（罗兰·巴特）的努 力，他以某根幻想的杠杆或者镊子将大桥从现实环境里移出时，就是在完成一次想像中的复位，大桥 不再承担南北交通命脉的重任，空旷的桥身不复有车辆与行人，同样，这也是将它从政治神话的重压 下解救出来，远离人为的一切，在自然的景色中展现一个自我的身姿。 这就如同设法让一个疲惫、沧桑的人返回到自然之中，他接受着原始景色的治疗，在没有文明的玷污 和重压的状态下，他获得了短暂的平静，忘却了那纷乱而令人窒息的记忆，他的身心可以说得到了片 刻的净化。出现在短片中的大桥大约正类似于这种返回自然的人，长期以来，它已经被过多的现实使

命、过多的政治任务折磨得面目全非，它在现实中的地位如同一个忠诚的超级奴仆，直到死亡的那一 天，也永不会撤离它的阵地和岗位，而艺术家似乎在竭力唤起它出走和逃亡的意识，以完成一次自我 的清洗，以便它能够以物自身的命运复苏，在摆脱现实与政治的双重奴役之后，成为一个单独的、个 体的生命，成为它自己，成为空，存在于那种纯自然的时间之中，继而，成为一个可以被重新灌注入 意义的审美对象，而这一次，这灌入的意义将不再源于现实神话，而是来自艺术的寓言。 在这件作品之中，我感受到某种寓言性的潜来，不过它正如画面中不停掠过的云影，没有真正地栖落 下来，与大桥本身溶为一体。我以为，这是一个值得期待的系列，从南京长江大桥这样一个充满历史 感与集体记忆的母题上，一定可以培植出种类繁多的子题来，一定可以发展出无限丰富的可能，只要 隐性逻辑的链环进一步收紧，而想像力的空间能够层层地打开，它将是一个可以不断讲述下去的“天 方夜谭”。 2005年11月 ①曹恺以“童贞时代”，“青春时代”、“后乌托邦或灰色时代”、“遗址时代”来对应毛时代、邓 时代、后邓的时代及大桥未来的式微期。参见他和左靖的一次交谈记录。

Qiiu Zhijie <the west> 邱志杰 《西方》 1999

The West 西方 Interactive installation 互动装置

The West: A imaged world The Chinese embassy in Yugoslavia was bombed by NATO in the summer of 1999, I was in Beijing at that time and discerned the bedin in front of the US and UK embassy. The gusty event showed the complicated idea of how Chinese people represent the West. So, I began to make the CD-Rom work THE WEST. In fact, the real political event is just one of the reason, I have paid attention to show how people were controlled in a unconscious situation for long time. The concept “The West” is the most complicated and inexplicit state, it badger with different historical and realistic elements, it’s self-contradictory, either elevated and farcical. So, interactive multi-medial become the best way to present the feeling. It must become one kind of investigation, but keep the game style to show the complexity of the reality, especially, the fantasticality of the reality.

The West is the end of silk road, the West is the powerful aggressor, the west is the terrible and ugly beast with brown hair, the West is headspring of democracy and freedom; The west means advant technology, the West means rich life, the West is what China is now open to, then, it also enemy because the bomb. The West is not a geographical concept but an imagination.

Because of the complexity of this subject, this CD-Rom works is impossible to finish, it’s a on going project. The feedback of the audidence will be new materials of it, then the work become a maze, just like this concept itself.

1999《西方》 想象的异邦 一九九九年中国驻南斯拉夫大侠馆受到北约导弹的袭击，我在北京目睹了群众在英美大使馆的示威。 这一事件使本来就己经存在的各种观点之间的复杂关系强烈地暴露出来。这之后我开始制作《西方》 这个互动多媒体作品。 当然现实的政治事件只是一个触缘，长期以来我一直试图去呈现人们在无意识状态中所受到的控制， 这种控制可以是身体的，象我在摄影系列《好》中所探讨的，良好的正面形象对身体动作一直在进行 自我查察。控制更多地是表现为一种话语习惯，在纪录片《乒乓》中我曾探讨了一种体育运动如何被 塑造成一个民族国家的神话叙事，并渗透在个人的言语中。而“西方”这个概念显然具有更大的复杂 性和暧昧性，中国人对“西方”这个概念的理解充满了自相矛盾，纠缠到极复杂的历史和现实因素， 即严肃又充满喜剧性，互动多媒体为我提供了创造这种感受的最佳方式。我决定让它成为一种调查报 告，但是坚持一种游戏的状态以便最大限度地展示现实的复杂性，尤其是只有现实才具备的那种荒诞 性。 长期以来人类学一真是采取偏远落后的异文化的事实来呈现给“先进”文明中的人，在这种表述中充 满猎奇与误解，和殖民主义特有的伪善的自我批评。我想相反地提供一个被动的文化对于强势的文化 的理解。当然这种理解同样充满了误解，或者根本就不可能有“正解”，西方从一开始就是一种想象 的异邦，类似于宗教中彼岸的概念，它是此岸的生活中的精神需求，而无需落实为物质形态，或者可 以落实成各种物质形态。 中国人词汇中最早的西方是昆仑山的部族和神话人物西王母，佛教净土宗中的西方是人们死后超生的 极乐净土，都是极美妙的世界。五百年来粉墨登场的西方则是来自欧美的文化，在不同的时空中它有 着截然不同的含义：西方是清政府所恐惧的列强，是义和团口中的妖，对于师夷长技以制夷的洋务 派，西方是船坚炮利但不文明的“夷”，对于五四人物西方是民主和科学；西方声声炮响，送来了各 种主义；西装是文明装，西历是公历；油画不称为西画，水墨画却改叫中国画了；后来西方又是“亚 非拉”人民共同的敌人，再后来西方又是改革开放的对象了。突然间一声巨响，西方又成了北约。西 方的具体演员一直在换，角色可一直没变，西方是什么，其实取决于我们想要什么。西方真正的意义 不是一个地理方位而是“彼岸”，丝绸之路通向地理的西方，而想象归于另一种西方。 由于这个问题无边无际的复杂性，多媒体作品《西方》事实上是不可能完成的。每次展出时我都会搜 集观众的反应使之成为新的素材。人们看到的一直是它最新的版本。最终这个作品己经成为一座迷 宫，就象这个概念本身那样。只是由于目前网络带宽和速度的限制，它还没有发展成一个网主论坛。

Qiu Zhijie: Table of Contents

by Val Wang Choosing a favorite work of art=would be hard for a prolific artist like Qiu Zhijie, but after=a moment’s thought, he names his installation “Xin/Jin,”=(“Heart/Scripture”) exhibited in Taiwan in 1999. For it, he=covered the walls with a Buddhist scripture teaching one on=how to liberate one’s heart, written in ink only visible in white = light. After five seconds, the white light abruptly switched to an=overhead light, illuminating the human heart floating in a=glass jar on a stand, then five seconds later, just as your=eyes adjusted, the white light eased back on.

He delightedly shows a videotape of the installation =0A where a woman, as soon as the heart springs to view, grabs her=own heart in shock. By having viewers physically experience=the contrast between physical and intellectual ways to=conceptualize the heart, he is betraying his opposition to art=that is merely conceptual. If you don’t have to read Chinese,=says Qiu, you might not fully understand the text, but it=won’t prevent you from being affected by the work. This work is teaching =0A you how to think of art as the way to not only understand the=human heart, but to affect it and, by saying it is his=favorite, Qiu is congratulating himself for successfully=balancing the two.

According to Qiu,=Chinese contemporary art is too affected by Duchamp, too=preoccupied with the desires of artists to prove that they’re=smart. Though he is well-versed in Western theories and much =of his art has revolved around philosophical problems such as the limits =0A of the ability to know and to think he says, “I want to do the=kind of art that makes even your skin react, not your brain,=the kind that surrounds people, makes people’s whole bodies=react.”

He has recently been making=video art and CD-ROMs and is attuned to the sacrifices that=new media requires to this endeavor of balancing the=conceptual with the powerful.

Though he can be more =independent, working on his computer at any time, and he doesn’t have = to make as many compromises, he believes the works are err on the=conceptual side. “There isn’t a limit on the space or time of=this, only on the size of the file, and it can be exhibited in=many spaces, but can’t address the problems of the body.=There’s nothing you can do about this.” He believes the=technology is still too limited to move people. An exception =to his rule is Bill Viola’s slow-mo video installation of simple actions =0A like a drop of water falling. Qiu admires the way that it=completely controls your body and changes an inconsequential=occurrence into a drama that the viewers watch like a good=play.

The CD-ROM he has been working on=for a few months is called “The West” containing video clips=of people talking about different topics about “the West” --=kids on Christmas and McDonald’s, hairdressers on the NATO=bombing, college students on the TOEFL. It also includes Qing=Dynasty artistic renditions of encounters with the West and=historical video clips. He gets at the conflicts and contradictions = inherent in these thoughts. One student says that after the NATO=bombing, students decided not to take the TOEFL, but then=later regretted it and at the next registration, the lines=snaked out the building.

Though Qiu is=aware of the flawed concept of “the West,” he persists with it=because he says it echoes the monolithic way that people here=view the outside world. This work is a more sociological piece=”about how people’s thinking is limited by education, history, =reality,” says Qiu, drawing similarities to his photograph series “Good” =0A where two men adopt stagey positions facilitated and determined=by the poles they are carrying. Qiu

says he doesn’t believe=that the technology necessarily allows him to say something=new, but rather just extend this earlier work. = The CD-ROM is messily assembled in PowerPoint and = allows the viewer choices, from “The Good West,” “The Bad West”=and “The Real West.” However, Qiu states adamantly that being=interactive is not necessarily good in itself. To him, it mark= a loss of control over the artwork, forcing the work itself=to acquiesce to market demands.

And for=the free hand of the artist to be restricted by market demands=means that he cannot fulfill his responsibility, which is to=reorganize reality into an experience more powerful than reality. = Qiu recently curated an exhibition entitled “New Conceptual Photography:= China Scene” that was exhibited in the atrium of the Century=Theater in Beijing. In his own work, “Landscape” he spliced=together footage of himself as he spun around in different=places he’s traveled, creating the effect that he’s standing=still and the background is whirling and switching around=behind him. Though it was a fairly simple demonstration of the=Chinese understanding of travel, he says, “I put different spaces = together, at least... and used my face as a reference point, so it was =0A like having a dream. You enter here, exit there. It has a=stronger feeling than your regular life. Time and space have=been reorganized, so then you can say it’s art.” = Qiu is, by his own admission, a traditionalist,=borrowing ideas about knowledge and time from Buddhism. For=his other exhibited work, he spent a year making a calendar=called “Calendar 1998.” For each month, he split a photograph=into 30 or 31 pieces and each day of the month took part of=the whole photograph. The resulting picture shows the photo=reconstructed, but with each day being taken on a different =day. “The Chinese think, or at least I do, that every day is important = and yet isn’t that important,” he says.

“I used this method to=emphasize that you should look carefully at every place.” =0A He compares this approach to a Western=philosophical approach, where something is “important because=there’s something beneath it. In China, it’s important because=of its relation to other thingsꆭ You can say it’s not=important, but it can’t be replaced.”

Qi= is a voluble and enthusiastic talker, but he is at his most=serene when talking about philosophy. “Every day what you =encounter is what we Chinese call fate. Today I meet you, tomorrow I = meet someone else,” he says. “Everything, no matter how small, every= time, no matter how short, is fated, so you should earnestly=approach it.”

End

Wang Jianwei <living Elsewhere> 汪建伟 《生活在别处》 1999

Living Elsewhere 生活在别处 Video 录像 40’

Living Elsewhere In China of the Nineties, as a consequence of the economic development, the fast expansion of urban areas and the requisition of enormous quantity of what used to be farmland, peasants start flooding in cities in droves and fight for the limited resources ( space, labor market, identity recognition… ) with the continuously expanding urban population. Following the intensification of the fighting, a specific way of living and therefore a new cultural and living environment are born.

This documentary is shot in Chengdu, the capital city of Sichuan Province China.

Along the newly constructed express way to the airport, there is a group of villas built at the inception of the Nineties and left uncompleted for almost seven years. There, a marginal area between the city and the country, a group of four peasants from different parts of China gather together, They live in this “cave”–a result of the bubble economy, facing on one hand the harshness of being jobless due to the lose of the farmland and on another hand the urge to find a new position in this totally alienated space far from home. In this completely isolated situation, they have to start their new life…

Wang Jianwei March, 1999

About “Living Elsewhere” I attempt to establish a new introspective way of understanding between a method of social–anthropology and the process of a daily–life “incident”.

These individuals, from different places, face a common issue of “Living Elsewhere” in an isolated space. What kind of personal behavior, inclination or specific lifestyle will be maintained and spread? What will be gradually transformed into new habits and living experiences? Through continuous or intermittent records of this process, I seek to provide a new attitude to understand culture through means of routine life.

Wang Jianwei August 1999

《生活在别处》 该片记录了在中国四川省会成都，一条新建的通向机场的高速路两旁，遗留着九十年代初建筑并已停 工近七年的一个别墅区内，居住着四个从不同地方来到这个城市边缘的农民，在这个泡沫经济遗留的 空穴中，这些传统意义上的农民一方面承受失去耕地带来的“失业”；另一方面，他们又必须弃家出 走，来到这个完全陌生的空间，重新找到自己的位置，并在一种完全隔离的状态下开始自己新的生活-----。

汪建伟 1999年3月

关于《生活在别处》 随着逐个经济的发展，城市迅速的扩张，传统农村土地大规模的丧失，农民大量涌入城市，并与城市 日益增长的人口共同形成了对于有限资源（空间、劳动力、身份------）的争夺。随着这种争夺的加 剧，制造了一种特定时期的人的生存方式，并由此产生了新的文化与日常生活的状态。 我比较愿意从一种关系的角度——即通过日常生活的相关性、行为方式、具体场所的“进行时态”去 阅读“对象”，或者说是在日常生活的实践中去理解文化的一种态度。

汪建伟 1999年8月

Wang Yuyang <the moon landing project> 王郁洋 《登月计划》 2007

The moon landing project 再造登月 Video installation 录像装置

再造登月 方案 2006年－2007年 艺术家：王郁洋 制作人：李振华 开篇 1961年4月12日，发生了一件令美国人恼怒的事：苏联宇航员加加林首次进入太空。刚从床上被叫醒的 美国总统肯尼迪，知道消息后十分震惊，因为这表明苏联在航天技术上已领先美国一步，也就是说在 科技竞赛中美国处于劣势了。“这是继苏联第一颗人造地球卫星上天之后，对美国民族的又一次奇耻 大辱！”肯尼迪愤愤地说道。为了迎接苏联人的太空挑战，美国人决心不惜一切代价，重振昔日科技 和军事领先的雄风。 肯尼迪召集美国各有关部门头脑们商量对策，宣布：“美国最终将第一个登上月球。” 1961年5月25日，肯尼迪在题为“国家紧急需要”的特别咨文中，提出在10年内将美国人送上月球。他 说：“我相信国会会同意，必须在本10年末，将美国人送上月球，并保证其安全返回”，“整个国家 的威望在此一举”。于是，美国航宇局制订了著名的“阿波罗”登月计划。 阿波罗是古代希腊神话传说中的一个掌管诗歌和音乐的太阳神，传说他是月神的同胞姐弟，曾用金箭 杀死巨蟒，替母亲报仇雪恨。美国政府选用这位能报仇雪恨的太阳神来命名登月计划，其心情可想而 知。 但是，建造这样一艘登月船也不是轻而易举的。两个月后，美国科学家为实施“阿波罗”登月计划拿 出了4种方案，即“直接登月”、“地球——轨道会合”、“加油飞机”、“月球表面会合”，但是， 每种方案随后都表明存在着各种不易解决的问题。 正当美国科学家们和政府首脑犹豫不决时，一位名叫约翰·C·霍博特的太空署工程师提出了第5种方 案——“月球轨道会合”方法，这种方法的要点是：从地球上发射一支推力为750万磅的“土星”5号 火箭，将装载3个宇航员的“阿波罗”太空船推向月球。“阿波罗”太空船绕着月球轨道运行，但整艘 太空船并不在月球上降落，而是分离出一艘小的登月舱。登月舱带着2名宇航员依靠倒退火箭抵达月球 表面，第3名宇航员则留在太空船上。当他的两个同伴在勘查月球表面时，他一路环绕月球飞行。当勘 查工作完成后，月球上的两位宇航员就引发登月舱上的火箭，重新和太空船会合。3名宇航员乘坐太空 船，引发火箭回到地球上来。于是，科学家们决定采用“月球轨道会合”法。 迄今为止，阿波罗登月是历时最长、规模最大、投资最多、最富传奇性的人类对太空的探险行动。早 在1957年就开始设想阿波罗登月计划，经过若干年科学、技术和财政支持的多方面综合论证，1961年 5月25日，美国正式宣布实施该项计划。历时10年多时间，于1972年12月底阿波罗登月计划结束。 1969年7月16日，巨大的“土星5号”火箭载着“阿波罗11号”飞船从美国肯尼迪角发射场点火升空， 开始了人类首次登月的太空征程。 美国宇航员尼尔·阿姆斯特朗、埃德温·奥尔德林、迈克尔·科林斯驾驶着阿波罗11号宇宙飞船跨过 38万公里的征程，承载这全人类的梦想踏上了月球表面。 这确实是一个人的一小步，但是整个人类的伟大一步。他们见证了从地球到月球梦想的实现，这一步 跨过了5000年的时光。

美国这个目前唯一成功登月的国家，在将登月计划停止了30年后重新开始计划实施。2004年1月14日， 美国总统布什雄心勃勃的宣布了美国新的太空计划。 美国总统布什曾说：”It is time for America to take the next steps. Today I announce a new

plans to explore space and extend a human presence across our solar system. We will begin the effort quickly using existing programmes and personnel. We’ll make steady progress, one mission, one voyage, one landing at a time. The last man to set a foot on a lunar surface said this as he left: ‘We leave as we came, and God willing as we shall return with peace and hope for all mankind. America will make those words come true.” [译 文：“美国现在到了迈出探索宇宙的下一步的时候了。今天我宣布我们探索广阔宇宙的新计划。我们 将利用现有的人力物力，确定明确的计划。那名最后踏足月球的人曾这么说：我们离开了就像我们来 的时候一样，上帝知道我们会带着全人类的希望回来。是的，我们会让这句话成真。”] 布什提出的这项计划包括，美国将在不晚于２００８年对月球表面进行一系列无人探测，然后最早２ ０１５年、最晚不超过２０２０年将人送上月球，目标是不断延长在月球上生活和工作的时间。根据 在月球上获得的知识和经验，美国下一步将准备派人对火星甚至更远的地方进行探索。新一代的载人 航天工具开始设计建造，宇宙空间站将在最短的时间内完成组装。 2004年7月中旬，墨西哥《永久周刊》科技版刊载了俄罗斯研究人员亚历山大·戈尔多夫发表的题为《 本世纪最大的伪造》的文章，对美国31年前拍摄的登月照片提出质疑。不仅许多报刊纷纷转载了这篇 文章，而且立刻引起了广大读者的密切关注。一时间，沉寂了一阵的关于阿波罗登月真伪的讨论再次 热火起来。据美国一家权威的社会调查机构统计，竟有10%(约2500万)的美国人认为：所谓阿波罗登 月，是美国宇航局制造的一个大骗局。奇怪的是，迄今为止未看到美国官方对此有任何正式反应。现 年69岁的美国宇航员尼尔·阿姆斯特朗依然健在，为何不让他出来澄清事实？是美国对此根本不屑一 顾，还是确有难言之隐？各国新闻媒体颇有要对此进行一番调查采访的势头。 由来 按照被普遍接受的观念，50年代末至60年代初，在航天竞赛中处于劣势的美国人决心不惜一切代价， 重振昔日科技和军事领先的雄风。1961年，美国总统肯尼迪正式宣布，美国要在60年代末实现把人送 上月球的目标。这就是举世闻名的“阿波罗登月计划”。 1969年7月16日上午，巨大的“土星5号”火箭载着“阿波罗11号”飞船从美国肯尼迪角发射场点火升 空，开始了人类首次登月的太空飞行。参加这次飞行的有美国宇航员尼尔·阿姆斯特朗、埃德温·奥 尔德林、迈克尔·科林斯。在美国东部时间下午4时17分42秒，阿姆斯特朗将左脚小心翼翼地踏上了月 球表面，这是人类第一次踏上月球。接着他用特制的70毫米照相机拍摄了奥尔德林降落月球的情形。 他们在登月舱附近插上了一面美国国旗，为了使星条旗在无风的月面看上去也像迎风招展，他们通过 一根弹簧状金属丝的作用，使它舒展开来。接着，宇航员们装起了一台“测震仪”、一台“激光反射 器”……在月面上他们共停留21小时18分钟，采回22公斤月球土壤和岩石标本。7月25日清晨，“阿波 罗11号”指令舱载着三名航天英雄平安溅落在太平洋中部海面，人类首次登月宣告圆满结束。 质疑 但时隔30多年，戈尔多夫却公开发表文章对美国拍摄的登月照片表示怀疑。他认为，所谓美国宇航员 在月球上拍摄的所有照片和摄像记录，都是在好莱坞摄影棚中制造的。他强调，他是在进行了认真的 科学分析和认证后作出这一结论的。 其主要理由如下： 1.没有任何一幅影像画面能在太空背景中见到星星； 2.图像上物品留下影子的朝向是多方向的，而太阳光照射物品所形成的阴影应是一个方向的； 3.摄影记录中那面插在月球上的星条旗在迎风飘扬，而月球上根本不可能有风把旗子吹得飘起 来； 4.从摄影记录片中看到宇航员在月球表面行走犹如在地面行走一样，实际上月球上的重力要比地 球上的重力小得多，因而人在月球上每迈一步就相当于人在地面上跨跃了5至6米长； 5.登月仪器在“月球表面移动”时，从轮子底下弹出的小石块的落地速度也同地球发生同一现象 的速度一样，而在月球上这种速度应该比在地球上快6倍。 戈尔多夫表示，他质疑30多年前美国宇航员“拍摄”的登月照片和摄像记录，并不是否定当年美国宇 航员登月的壮举。他认为，美国宇航员当时是接近了月球表面，但因技术原因未能踏上月球。由于当

时美国急于向全世界表功，因而伪造了多幅登月照片和一部摄影记录片，蒙蔽和欺骗了世人几十年。 他说，美国著名工程师拉尔夫·勒内、英国科学家戴维·佩里和马里·贝尔特都对他的这一质疑表示 赞同。 无独有偶，自称参与了阿波罗计划工作的比尔·凯恩教授曾写了一本名为《我们从未登上月球》的 书，书中对阿波罗登月计划也列举了一些疑点，甚至认为：载有宇航员的火箭确实发射了，但目标不 是月球，而是人迹罕至的南极，在那里指令舱弹出火箭，并被军用飞机回收。随后宇航员在地球上的 实验室内表演登月过程，最后进入指令舱，并被投入太平洋，完成整个所谓的登月过程。 “阿波罗登月计划”是否是一场骗局的问题在美国引起了强烈反响。以著名物理学教授哈姆雷特为代 表的人士肯定“骗局论”，他们认为阿波罗登月造假的依据有： 1.阿波罗登月照片纯属伪造 根据美国宇航局公布的资料计算，当时太阳光与月面间的入射角只有6-7度左右，但那张插上月球 的星条旗的照片显示，阳光入射角大约近30度。照片中出现的阴影夹角应该在“跨出第一步”后46小 时才可能得到。 2.阿波罗登月录像带在地球上摄制 通过录像分析，宇航员在月面的跳跃动作、高度与地面近似，而不不符合月面行走特征。 3.月面根本没有安装激光反射器 根据美国某天文台的数据可以计算得知，现在在地球上用激光接收器收到的反射光束强度只是反 射器反射强度的1／200。其实，这个光束是由月亮本身反射的。也就是说，月球上根本没有什么激光 反射器。 4.阿波罗计划进展速度可疑 美国直到1967年1月才研制出第一个“土星五号”，1月27日做首次发射试验，不幸失火导致三名 宇航员被熏死。随后登月舱重新设计，硬件研制推迟18个月，怎么可能到1969年7月就一次登月成功 呢？ 5.对土星五号火箭和登月舱的质疑 现代航天飞机只能把20吨载荷送上低轨，而当年的土星五号却能轻而易举地把100吨以上载荷送上 地球轨道，将几十吨物体推出地球重力圈，为什么后来却弃而不用，据说连图纸都没有保存下来？ 6.温度对摄影器材的影响 月面白天可达到121°C，据图片看，相机是露在宇航服外而没有采用保温措施的。胶卷在66°C就 会受热卷曲失效，怎么拍得了照片？ 这些人士认为，对以上这一切美国政府一直没个交代，而知情者由于担心生活和安全受到影响，甚至 可能直接遭到了胁迫，至今对此沉默不言。但相信不久的将来，诞生于美苏太空竞赛年代的“登月骗 局”定会水落石出。 反驳 不过，也有许多人认为“阿波罗”登月计划不可能造假： 首先因为该计划当时是在全球实况转播的，近亿人亲眼看到。另外，宇航员还从月球带回了一些实 物，如岩石。 其次，美国政府不会拿信誉开玩笑。如果是一次骗局，他们根本不需要冒这么大的风险实况转播，而 只需事后发表一些照片即可。否则万一有个闪失，美国政府要承担很大后果，甚至会名誉扫地而一蹶 不振。 第三，美国宇航局有成千上万的科技、工程人员，绝大多数人都会持科学的态度，不会视严肃的科学 问题为儿戏。如果登月计划是一场骗局，不仅全体参与者的人格将受损，而且，让几万人守着谎言过 几十年，实非易事。 此外，美国的传媒几乎是无孔不入。假如政府有欺骗行为，各大媒体一定会大做文章。而至今美国新 闻界并没有对此大肆渲染，其中必有一定道理。

再就是揭露证据还不充分。有人指出，哈姆雷特的理由是不够严谨的。用几张照片和录像来判断登月 是骗局，如同用数学归纳法来证明哥德巴赫猜想一样可笑。 在热烈的争论中，去年7月20日，美国在华盛顿国家航空航天博物馆举行仪式，纪念人类首次登月30周 年。美国副总统戈尔向当年乘“阿波罗11号”在月球着陆的3名宇航员授予了“兰利金质奖章”，以表 彰他们为航天事业作出的贡献。这多少表示了美国政府对此的态度。但是，阿姆斯特朗依然拒绝参加 任何记者招待会、签名或合影，30年来他选择了沉默。这又给人们留下了一个巨大的疑惑。 事件 美国弄丢首次登月录像 原始录像带从未公开播映 “阿波罗11号”飞船登月的原始录像带竟然在美国宇航局的戈达德航天中心找不到了！在2006年8月 14日一天的搜寻无果后，美国宇航局15日正式成立“搜寻录像带行动小组”，并称他们仍在全力以 赴，并坚信这些宝贵的影像资料还在航天中心内。 阿波罗11号宇航员奥尔德林在月面与美国国旗合影。 共1.3万盘录像带丢失 1969年7月20日，美国宇航员阿姆斯特朗和奥尔德林乘坐“阿波罗11号”飞船的登月舱首次登陆月球， 登月舱顶部的摄像机记录下了当时的“光辉时刻”。 据悉，丢失的原始影像资料记录下了“阿波罗11号”从发射到返回的整个过程，共计1.3万盘录像 带，装在2000个箱子里，每盘录像带记录长达15分钟的画面资料。其中记录两名宇航员登月“关键时 刻”的录像带有15盘，分装在3个箱子里。 官员认为录像带没真丢 美宇航局15日在网站上发布最新消息说，他们已经发起了一场正式的搜寻行动，一定要把这些重要资 料找到。 负责搜寻的主管官员理查德·纳夫茨格坚持认为，这些录像带并没有真丢，只是现在不知道具体放在 什么地方了。它们很可能还呆在戈达德航天中心的某个地方，或者后来又被转到宇航局的档案系统 中。 该录像带画面非常清晰 据称，“丢失”的原始录像带画面非常清晰，此前从未公开播映过，甚至宇航局许多官员都未观赏 过。当时摄像机在月球表面以每秒10帧的速度拍摄，然后实时传回地面跟踪站。但电视播放需要每秒 60帧的画面，所以当年人们从电视画面上看到的，都是根据太空传回的原始画面转换而成的影像，画 面质量与原始录像带相比，失真不少。纳夫茨格说，原始画面要比人们当时观看到的清晰好几倍。 这些原始录像带最初被存放在戈达德航天中心，1970年被移至美国国家档案馆。后来于1984年又被送 回戈达德。 美国将重启登月计划 建立永久月球基地 据英国《星期日泰晤士报》3月19日报道，美国航天局正在制定一个“雄心勃勃”的登月计划，在 2015年左右将宇航员送上月球背面，到2020年以前在月球上建立太空站。据美国媒体披露，五角大楼 40多年前就制定过类似的计划，要在月球背面建立永久性的军事基地。对于进驻月球基地的计划，美 国空军司令部太空系统处曾奉“最高指挥当局”的命令，秘密执行过一段时间。进入新世纪以来，美 国先是提出要“重返月球”；接着，又于2003年上半年，宣布了一个独霸太空的“否定”计划，准备 控制从地球到月球之间的“近地太空”，从而限制和剥夺他国在“近地太空”活动的自由。2004年1月 15日，美国总统布什明确表示要在2020年之前在月球上建立永久性基地……美国宇航局在月球建立太

空站的计划无疑是这些月球基地计划的“改进版”。 媒体评论指出，美国重启登月计划有多方面的原因：随着地球资源逐渐匮乏，开发利用月球资源已成 为引起许多国家的高度关注；在月球上建立永久性基地，其军事意义也不言而喻。更重要的是，对月 球的探索与利用是一个国家战略威慑能力强弱的象征，对于提高民族自尊心和增强国家凝聚力具有重 要意义。当年阿姆斯特朗登月、美国国旗插在月球表面的行为通过媒体传播到全世界，产生了惊人的 威慑效果。 在美国的刺激下，世界许多国家也纷纷出台了自己的月球计划。欧洲空间局计划在2020年 前分4个阶段进行月球探测，最后将完成永久性月球基地建设。日本、印度也提出了自己的探月计划。

再造登月 具体方案 我采用临摹手段在影棚拍摄1969年7月16日阿波罗登月全球实况转播,画面的角度手法服装道具等都保 持与全球实况转播的图像一致. 展览的方式:需要两个空间，来呈现作品 第一个空间：两个屏幕分别播放1969年7月16日阿波罗登月全球实况转播和我在影棚拍摄的登月图 像,两个图像达到所有的一致.意义在对历史的质疑对媒体的质疑.

第二个空间：陈列我在影棚拍摄登月时的服装、道具、图片。通过陈列作成1969年7月16日阿波罗登月 回顾展。次展厅每件展品都有保安看护。 第二个空间基本效果图

Yang Fudong <strange Paradis> 杨福东 《陌生天堂》 2002

Strange Paradis 陌生天堂 35mm film 35毫米电影 90’

intellectual ?! Yang Fudong lizhenhua The period between the 1970s and the 1990s was a rather fragmented phase for the development of contemporary Chinese art. Painting went through many changes, in line with the ideological shifts that were occurring during the time, but out of this evolved the Chinese contemporary art we have today. Visual iconography slowly came to be replaced by other forms, and the ideas and concepts that lay in the background had a direct impact on art as seen in public spaces, in museums, in galleries, and in artists’ studios. By the year 2000 Chinese contemporary art had already moved beyond what the West perceived as Chineseness, and was in the process of gradually taking on its own individual narrative, social practices, artistic experimentation and cross-discipline forms, making a break from the past: Slowly, from an old black and white image, a pair of hands is creating a traditional Chinese landscape, accompanied by strains of zither music, with the voice over saying: “the concept behind the ink painting is...”

Yang Fudong “An Estranged Paradise”, 2002 It was the figures from the past, these unhurried, silent figures, spliced together in different scenes, that would in time become the focus of Yang Fudong’s work, in references to the movies of days gone by. I recall how Yang Fudong once told me how he felt when he went to see a movie during a Fei Mu retrospective, and how this compared to movies by other people such as Ozu Yasujiro. This is perhaps what Yang Fudong is getting at with his constant references and his constant flashbacks, ideas that only have an existence within the scenes of his films. As Yang Fudong himself put it: “This is the type of idea I’m trying to get at, trying to express memories that are quite profound, but which are not of things that actually happened.”

For his 1993 piece Mosheng Ren Jihua, or “Stranger’s Plan”, Yang Fudong spent three months not saying a word to anyone, communicating solely through words written on his hands or forearms.

The work made between 1997 and 2008 can really be seen as one complete oeuvre, from An Estranged Paradise to Seven Intellectuals in a Bamboo Forest, including a number of shorts and installations between. The stylistic uniformity in these works, as well as the set ways in which ideas are expressed, have become Yang’s trademark style.

Qiu Zhijie has identified these common elements, showing how Yang consistently uses figures reclining on their side, figures gazing out into the distance, and figures sitting on rocks in his work.

These are allusions to folk fables and stories, and derive mostly from fragments of Yang’s own memory, or inspired by his intellectual complex, as if ghosts in his work. Most of his scenes are set in scenic areas in the south, and most are in black and white, evocative of old movies.

In these works we have to look hard for any trace of the critical nature of artist, or of any hint of disillusionment with society. They are pregnant with silence and reticence, with the ambience of the spirit world.

All or nothing There has been much discourse surrounding the ideological issue of Chinese symbolism, from the problem of “connecting with the world” brought up by the critic Li Xianting in the 1990s, to the Olympics of 2008. Chinese symbolism, and its various permutations through the period of great social transformation in the country, has become a disparate array of images, from Chairman Mao’s portrait through Tian’anmen Square and pictures of pandas, to images of peasant workers, coal and commercialisation. As time has gone by, Chinese symbolism has become a slippery concept to nail down, and the development of the art economy within the wider Chinese economy has only added to this. Million dollar works by artists such as Zhang Xiaogang and Liu Xiaodong have also gradually come to have an influence on the global art economy.

Yang Fudong’s work can be seen as a type of Chinese symbolism in itself, in the way that it has come to influence artists throughout the Hangzhou and Shanghai regions. We can see his influence in The History of Chemistry series by Yang’s good friend Lu Chunsheng, and in Qiu Anxiong’s The Classic of Mountains and Seas. Yang was a starting point from which emerged a whole group of artists choosing to work in monochrome, employing slow movements, their protagonists gazing into the distance.

In Yang’s work Chinese symbolism is at once everything about the work, and at the same time eradicated by it. One can often interpret the scenes and individuals in them in two, or sometimes more, common ways. The first of these is to see everything within them as having a Chinese-ness with shades of the “scribbler”, the small time writer, the other is the strong sense of the “intellectual” in his work, and the concern and apprehension felt for the way that China is developing. However, these commonly espoused “readings” of the work are subject to some question, not least the idea of the “scribbler” and the “intellectual.” Yang Fudong, in many interviews, has said that his idea of the intellectual is “an educated person.” In An Estranged Paradise in particular we have the youth getting married and the youth swimming, and right at the end of the film a youth ranting and raving by the side of a railway track. None of these images are what we normally associate with intellectuals, and so perhaps the ideas of “scribbler” and “intellectual” are more to do with how we respond to the titles of his work. Bamboo forests, parks, rockeries, lakes, mountains, pine trees: none of the scenes are set in cities, they are scenes within nature undisturbed. Could it be that the artist is intentionally playing with the idea of time by using black and white imagery reminiscent of old films?! Against the backdrop of these indeterminate, unspecified surroundings the visual narrative flows in a society quite outside of time.

The Chinese symbolism of Yang Fudong here is not the Chinese symbolism that has been roundly criticised elsewhere. For his work, Chinese symbolism is nothing but an impediment, a separate system of knowledge and complex that gives rise to a misleading, paradoxical visual experience. nothing about “contemporary art” In the frozen situations encountered in Yang Fudong’s images, the viewer must always ask, “Will the protagonist survive?” Fudong’s narratives read like brief, melancholic confessions, an “abstract cinema” that, in his own words, functions as “a non-describable collision in one’s heart.”

-Parkett No. 76: Yang Fudong, Lucy McKenzie, Julie Mehretu Yang’s narratives have always been outside contemporary art, from the educated youth in

An Estranged Paradise to the intellectuals in Seven Intellectuals in a Bamboo Forest series. We often see his work compared to that of the Japanese director Ozu Yasujiro, or his work generalised as being about the literati and intellectuals, but very people will actually discuss Yang in a Chinese cultural context. In Parkett No. 76 we read: In the frozen situations encountered in Yang Fudong’s images, the viewer must always ask, “Will the protagonist survive?” Fudong’s narratives read like brief, melancholic confessions, an “abstract cinema” that, in his own words, functions as “a non-describable collision in one’s heart.”

-Parkett No. 76: Yang Fudong, Lucy McKenzie, Julie Mehretu It is as if Yang is giving us an undetermined visual space, and employs elements such as visual experience, techniques and forms to mitigate against the direct, brash, simple art forms thrown up by a rash, impatient society. Absent from his work are clear cut relationships, or critiques of contemporary Chinese society: it’s even too far a stretch for us to associate the brick-wielding white collar worker in his film The First Intellectual with present day Chinese society. His creative inspiration has always come from within the artist himself, from misunderstandings, far removed from the mundanity of everyday life.

Seven Intellectuals in a Bamboo Forest gives us a composite visual experience linked to his other films, An Estranged Paradise and The Back Room. When one watches these films one gets the impression that the artist is perhaps trying to suggest that art is just something that erodes time, that the audience should perhaps go to sleep, and that perhaps the best reaction is to have no reaction at all.

It is very difficult to classify the work of Yang Fudong as being part of any particular Chinese contemporary art movement, or within any particular group. Today, as we are seeing Chinese contemporary art becoming increasingly mainstream and commercialised, and at a point in time when China is becoming more and more powerful in the global context, Yang Fudong supplies us with something that intellectuals continuously allude to, but just as often lack, an individual experience and an approach different from that of the herd, a completely unique individual system.

Postscript Yang himself tends to avoid talking about how his work relates to social issues, and more often than not it is the interviewer wanting to eke an interpretation of the work from the artist in order to make it easier to write it up. Yang has said in the past that the meaning of his work lies in the interpretation given it by the curator or the writer, and it is not for him to contend how they want to read it.

If we look at the current state of Chinese contemporary art we find, as I tried to show in the Multi-Archaeology exhibition I curated for the Palazzo Strozzi, a past, a future and a present in a vacuum. It is still far too early for us to reach a definitive judgement about the work of Yang Fudong.

知識分子＿楊褔東 引子 当代中国艺术的发展从70年代到90年代都是断裂的，绘画形态的变化根据意识形态的不同逐渐衍生了 今日的中国当代艺术。视觉图解判断逐渐被其他方式取代。艺术背后的观念直接影响到艺术在公共空 间、博物馆、画廊、艺术家工作室所呈现的形态。2000年后中国当代艺术已经逐渐摆脱西方视角下的 中国特征判断，正在逐渐形成个体叙事、社会实践、艺术试验、跨学科等等不同以往的方法论， 缓慢黑白的旧时影像中，一双手在画面上绘制传统的中国山水，伴随着琴声古意，画外音：‘水墨画 的意境是....’。 杨福东《陌生天堂》2002 那些怀旧、交错、缓慢、无声的人物，逐渐成为杨福东作品的标志，一种对老电影的追述。记得杨福 东曾经对我说他去看了费穆先生电影回顾的感受，和小津安二郎电影中那些人物比较。可能是杨福东 在不断的追述与不断闪回的方式去表达，而表达就只存在于作品的图景意境中。 “我试图模仿这种意境，试图将那些记忆深刻，但是却不真实的东西表达出来⋯⋯”杨福东如是说。 杨福东在1993年的作品《陌生人计划》，杨福东有3个月没有和人说话，沟通是通过文字被纪录在他的 手和前臂。 1997年到2008年，可以被看作是一个作品的整体创作，从《陌生天堂》到《竹林七贤》期间还有一些 短片与装置。风格的一致性，与表达的惯性，构成了杨福东风格。 邱志杰先生曾经为杨福东的风格化标准找到过一些罗列的方式，其中侧卧的人、凝视远方的人、坐在 石头上的人都成为经常出现在杨福东作品中的形式。 在这些相似而带有民间野史的故事中，大多是杨福东自己的记忆碎片与野史中荡气回肠的知识分子情 结，在杨福东的作品中，如同游魂。他的场景多选择在南方的园林中，多为黑白的旧影效果。 在这些作品中我们很难发现艺术家的批判性、对社会的不满，作品始终贯穿在沉默、寡言的内心、精 神世界。 是全部，也不是 All or nothing 中国符号是被谈论最多的意识形态问题，从90年代栗宪庭先生提出的与世界接轨，到2008年的奥运会 举办。中国符号也从毛泽东头像、天安门、熊猫等逐渐过渡到中国社会转型期出现的混乱景象、农民 工、煤矿、商品化现象等等。中国符号逐渐成为一个不是很确定的对象，而中国经济中的艺术经济发 展却为中国符号又增添了新现象，张晓刚、刘小东等等百万美元作品逐渐在影响着全球的艺术经济现 象。 杨福东的作品可以作为一个中国符号化的类型来看，如他作品对整个杭州、上海地区艺术家的影响， 我们可以通过他的好友路春生《化学史》系列、邱黯雄《山海经》中可见一般。从杨福东开始，一个 更大的群体开始选择黑白影像、缓慢的动作、凝视与对望的方式来表述。 中国符号在杨福东的作品中，既是作品的全部，也是被作品消解的观念。针对其中的场景和人物，经 常存在着两种或者两种以上的普遍看法，一种是其中所有的东西都是带有“小文人”色彩的中国情 调，另外的一种是作品中强烈的“知识分子”气质与对中国发展的担忧和焦虑构成了一种隐忍的视 角。但是其中明显的疑点恰恰来自于这些被普遍传播的“解读”。尤其是“小文人”“知识分子”， 杨福东在很多访谈中都提示了他所认为的知识分子概念是“受过教育的人”。尤其在《陌生天堂》中 出现的即将结婚的青年、游泳的青年和片尾出现的铁道边怒吼的青年，都不是真正意义上的知识分 子，所以“小文人”“知识分子”可以是来自对他作品名称的臆想。竹林、园林、假山、湖水、山、 松树这些场景是在城市之外，从来没有变化的自然景观，在黑白的影像中如同老电影的场景，是否艺

术家在故意调换时间的观念？！视觉叙事的方法在这些不明确、不确定的氛围被拉伸在一个时间缺失 的社会之中。 在这里杨福东的中国符号，并非现在被诟病的“中国符号”问题，更多的是他作品的本体，中国符号 本身也成为了一种障碍，一个个体的知识体系与情结构成的似是而非的视觉经验。 与当代艺术无关 nothing about “contemporary art” 从知识青年《陌生天堂》到知识分子《竹林七贤》系列，杨福东的表达一直是在当代艺术的问题之外 的。我们经常会看到评论家将杨福东的影像与日本电影导演小津安二郎的电影做比较，或者经常是用 文人知识分子的表达来概括他的作品，很少有人会将杨福东放置在一个以中国为背景的文化之中来讨 论，在Parkett 76期中说的：“在那些静止不动的画面中，观众应该追问——这些主角是否还活着？ 杨福东的故事如同简要而晦涩的诘问！存在的抽象电影观念，用他的话来说是来自个体内心的无可名 状的冲突感受。” In the frozen situations encountered in Yang Fudong’s images, the viewer must always ask, “Will the protagonist survive?” Fudong’s narratives read like brief, melancholic confessions, an “abstract cinema” that, in his own words, functions as “a non-describable collision in one’s heart.”

-Parkett No. 76: Yang Fudong, Lucy McKenzie, Julie Mehretu 杨福东仿佛为我们提供了一个不确定的视觉空间，同样在当代艺术今天如此对应的当代艺术的方法论 中，杨福东却通过视觉经验、技术、形式等元素消解了急躁社会所能提供的直接、粗暴、简单的艺术 模式。在他的作品中没有明确的对应关系、也不存在那些针对中国当代社会的批判，即使在他的作品 《第一个知识分子》the first intellectual中，那个拿着砖头的白领形象，也很难让我们与今日的 中国社会相关联，他的创作线索往往来自于艺术家个体的内心、知识的误读、远离现世的精神。 《竹林七贤》所能提供的是杨福东《陌生天堂》《后房》等作品的一个连贯的综合视觉经验，在观看 这些作品时，也许艺术家在传递心理暗示，也许艺术就是时间的消磨，也许观众应该睡觉，也许没有 任何回应就是最好的回应。 分析杨福东的作品，很难为杨福东归类到任何一个中国当代艺术的运动或者群体经验之中，在中国当 代艺术逐渐主流化、商业化的今天，在中国正处在崛起的阶段，杨福东恰恰提供了被知识分子不断提 及却事实缺位的个体经验与独立于群体之外的方式，一个独特的个人系统。 后记 他自己是相对躲闪的在谈论这些与直接社会有关的问题，经常是采访者希望引导艺术家阐释其作品意 义，方便写作和传达的结果。杨福东曾经有意无意的说他的作品阐释是被策展人或者记者引导的结 果，但是他并不争辩这些有意识的引导。 如何静观现在的中国当代艺术现状，如同我在Palazzo Strozzi 策划的《多重考古学》里的观念，过 去、未来和一个真空的现在，对杨福东下定义显然还为时过早。

李振華 2008年7月1日 凌晨3點

Zheng Yunahan <ji xi research 2004-2013> 郑云瀚 《鸡西调查2004－2013》 2007

Ji Xi Project 2004-2013 鸡西计划 Interactive Video Installation 互动录像装置

Dialogue 对谈

Metaphors of the Political Scenery Interviewer: Li Zhenhua Interviewee: Cao Kai Editor: Jiang Di Proofreader: Li Zhenhua Translator: lee Ambrozy Li: When did you start creating multimedia works? Could you please give a brief account?

Cao: I had been working at Television Center since graduating from art school in 1992, where I had close contact with media. However, it was relatively late when I started creating contemporary multimedia work. The time I got involved with contemporary artthe first time I participated in a contemporary art exhibition-was in 1995, while my first video installation work was completed in 1998, that was 3 years later. During those 3 years, I focused mainly on easel painting, occasionally some small-scale installations, which were in a language extended from the easel painting, as I was still creating with two-dimensional thought. Truthfully, my easel painting was not done strictly in the sense of traditional easel painting, but incorporated all types of mixed materials; this was a result of influences from a Nanjing local contemporary art group. Why did I conceive of creating a multimedia work in 1998? The idea was actually triggered by the exhibition space. It was for my second solo exhibition, the location was on the ruins of Summer Palace of the Southern Tang Dynasty. While I was inspecting the location, I felt a certain gloomy and ghostly atmosphere that could be expressed through audio visual materials, thus my first video installation was conceived “In the West Tower All Alone” (a verse from one of contemporary emperor’s poems).

Prior to this, since I was working in the multimedia department at a television broadcasting station, and had easy access to their professional audio video equipment and computers, some artists already had already begun asking for my help their multimedia works. I had heard vaguely of video art at the time, but had no further knowledge or understanding of its origin, its history, important artists or art works; I had no clear picture at all. I was restricted by my location in Nanjing as well; there was rarely any access to such resources from overseas. I remember the first two related articles I had read were published in “Jiansu Pictorial.” The first article was translated by Wu Weichun and the other was translated and edited by Daozi, both were related to video art. The information about multimedia was truly scarce back then. Only upon looking back and examining the history of Chinese video art did I realize that Qiu Zhijie and others had already done a great amount of work to accelerate the process. But I wasn’t in contact with them then, but rather worked in a relatively independent environment.

Li: I saw your work “2069” in 2001. From “2069” to “The Summer of 69”, to “Made in 68,” I find something very appealing to me-the creation of political metaphors through using and sampling still 3D images taken from society image (as in “Made in 68”) made into collage, or photomontage. Could you talk about how this transformation was accomplished?

Cao: “2069” was finished around spring of 2001. But in my opinion it is an unfinished work, I actually think it’s impossible to finish it, and it’s a failure as well. That is due to my technical limitations and budget restrictions; I couldn’t control such a big production. I

began in the latter half of year 2000 and continued until spring of 2001, it was a struggle to finish a 3-minute version. I was actually embarrassed to show the result to anyone.

From a production standpoint, it was not a success, but its conceptual framework indicated a turning point for my creative works: I started to reinterpret political events and history through images, emphasizing a re-visitation and re-interpretation of modern and contemporary history. It became a direction for my philosophy and creation, which persisted through the next 5 years’ work, until the appearance of “Made in 68.” In fact, I am still progressing on this path; I’m still in the process.

In 2002, I made 2 pieces of work, one was “The Summer of 69”, the other “International Song”. The latter was rarely shown in exhibition on the mainland, whereas the former was extensively exhibited as my representative work of that period. Both works are photomontage; first I began sampling images, then began organizing them with non-linear techniques.

It was a ready-made work built on the re-arrangement of these finished images. From a certain angle, you could view this as a dynamic collage, a process of re-assembling video images.

Therefore, “2069” is by a completely different technique. I wished to create a combination of purely three dimensions and realistic footage of real people, but I realized it was beyond my personal creative control. So I started thinking backwards: if I couldn’t make a work with completely original images, why not just borrow all of my images? The result was the creation of “The Summer of 69” and “International Song,” both in the style of borrowing old news reports.

Li: Apparently your desire to create with original images is fully illustrated in “Made in 68”: the merging of the 3D image of a bridge with natural scenery. How did you make it possible?

Cao: After the completion of the two works mentioned above, I wasn’t creating much in the 2 following years: “China Channel” in 2003 and nothing in 2004. You could say I had reached my plateau. I actually felt the need to re-arrange my thoughts during those two years. If I was going to choose digital multimedia as my primary means of expression, I would have to recharge myself with the necessary specialized knowledge. It was a period of broadly reading, extensively thinking and intense writing. In those 2 years, I finished book “The Pre-history of the Digital Image,” roughly 100,000 words, along with other related academic papers. Likewise, I curated some independent film screenings, the most prominent being “China’s Annual Independent Video Exhibition.” I extended my reach into to the history of non-narrative film, to establish a greater personal axis of coordination for basic structural theories. The whole process was an important supply to my later creative work, and re-structuring of my knowledge.

When I started creating again, because I had thoroughly examined the history of experimental film, video art and computer graphics, I started to observe the new media age with a new perspective, a bird’s eye view. My objective was thus to locate myself in the current historical setting. Relatively speaking, I saw my current and future co-ordinations clearly. My completed work would realize a clear trajectory between these two points.

This gives a completely different feeling when comparing to the works created through sheer impulse, by instinct or through accidental inspirations.

Therefore it can be seen as a fundamental change in the conceptual and linguistic level when I created “Made in 68” Except for the general schema, all other aspects were altered. One was using 3D modeling to create original image. From an operations angle, I no longer did everything by myself, for the 3D modeling, rendering, synthesis, as well as photographer and director I hired a team that included professionals. This allowed me to fo-

cus more on the visualization of the concept, spend more time on contemplation, achieving the integrity of the work, instead of being caught up by one or two technical details and having to interrupt the process to solve technical problems. Although I no longer personally operated the machinery to produce the work, the skills I have learned from years of detailed work helped me to communicate smoothly with my collaborators and to reasonably choose the proper techniques, since I understand every single detail of each step in the process. The creation of “Made in 68,” from a technical perspective, I think it is the best an individual studio could achieve. In the least, it is the greatest feeling of precision that I’ve had to date.

Li: You pay special concern to the historical changes of political society in your works.

What are some of the historical traces in your work?

Cao: Since childhood, I was deeply interested in politics and history. Both philosophical and historical literature comprised my daily reading list, as a hobby, and for recreation.

Although I have never studied politics and history as an academic, the influence and accumulation of related knowledge after years of reading is considerable. It is also an integral component in my knowledge framework. Nevertheless, the focus of my interest is constantly changing. At the earliest, like most people, I was interested in wars, major historical events, people and the society they lived in during the critical periods of change, etc. But later my interest shifted from the larger overview to the minute--I was drawn to the forgotten and often ignored details in history. Beginning with some known remnants, and according to my own analysis, reasoning and imagination, I started to re-construct and visualize the minute details lost in history that seemed undiscoverable. At the same time, this visualization is a process teeming with transfiguration and impressionistic flair. Another aspect is to tailor, re-assemble seemingly non-related historical events and characters to result in new meanings and interpretations.

Li: If politics is clearly employed as a symbolic element in “The Summer of 69” and “2069,” in “Made in 68” it becomes a metaphor of some kind. What do you think of this obscure symbolization of politics? Does it conflict with your explanation of the problem? Does it help advance the expressive nature of your work?

Cao: To our Chinese contemporary artists born during late 60’s and early 70’s, the influence of politics is still very deep. To the generation before us--born in late 50s and 60’s--it was a critical and completely engrossing. Therefore in works of this generation you can find much direct use of political symbols. For example, Wang Guangyi’s “Great Criticism” borrows directly from symbols on propaganda posters. In fact the Political Pop of the early 90’s had already reached a certain height as a painting medium. Political Pop ironically employed political symbols of Chinese communist movements, for example through different interpretations of Mao’s portrait. Since then this style had extended to other contemporary art forms: installation, performance art, multimedia, etc. Until recently, this style of is use hasn’t ceased. But the way that these symbols are used is becoming more and more obscure. For example, recently I saw Yin Zhaoyang’s Mao series.

His way of expression is completely different from earlier generation of Political Pop artists; he uses his own emotions and understanding that are very personal. In accordance to this personal complex, his use seems implicit and obscure.

The use of political symbols in Chinese contemporary art, I think, has undergone a transformation from directness to obscurity. Lately I have been wondering, why is that? I believe that most likely it is because the first group of Political Pop artists had a moment where they were directly facing the memory and fading influence of political symbols.

Their exposure was also a kind of collective behavior that they faced directly, face-toface, which was one chapter in their personal history.

Li: Do you mean “experience”?

Cao: Yes, absolutely a personal experience. They have such concrete memories from these personal experiences. Whereas for my generation these memories are only fading images in one’s memory, remnants of obscure, low-resolution images. Greater understanding came afterwards through various writing, oral histories passed down from the elder generations, and the inertia in our living environments and spaces where we can still feel a certain inheritance, a political inheritance, and remnants of a great political age. This is something I personally feel. Politics are ubiquitous in our daily life, albeit undercover. I feel this is similar to art works; politics are also obscured in the images themselves.

This is exactly what I care about: the elements under cover, like the Nanjing Bridge in “Made in 68”. My current studio is less than 10 km from the Nanjing Bridge; it is literally a part of my daily life and my working space, but it is still a very important thoroughfare in Nanjing, my city. Thus when I am faced with this historical heritage from the “Political Era”, my re-interpretation is very different from in the past. In one of my articles, I pointed out that as its practical function as a bridge decreases, its symbolic aesthetics of an era are increased and its implication as a political and cultural remnant become more interesting. These two processes are in exactly the opposite direction. I found a point to break in through searching for an exotic feeling in a familiar image, some unfamiliar scenery. So I placed it in wastelands, deserts, in a world of ice and snow, even put it into the sea with melting icebergs-through all kinds of natural sceneries, I was primarily seeking a feeling of newness.

Li: What influence did technology have on your creative production? When unfamiliarity is expressed through virtual 3D imaging, is it possible that as direct an interactive relationship is impossible?

Cao: Technology and art should have an interactive relationship. Quite a few artists are are contemptuous of technology, believing that concept takes precedent over all, or that technical portions can be completed by “hiring” or “outsourcing” to related sectors in society. On the opposite side, another tendency is “tech-worship,” those who think that new technologies lead to the breakthrough of new concepts. This idea is inclined to be attract the younger generation of artists and has an enormous market. I think both are dangerous, even though they lean in different directions. The former neglects reactive forces of new technologies in the process of art creation, and unilaterally emphasizes the creative subject, making it easy to lose control during the visualization process. The latter is the “putting the horse before the cart” phenomenon, in the creative process over emphasizing the technical abilities may result in too much stress on the shape of the work, weakening the conceptual integrity of the work.

3D imaging is already a mature means of artistic expression, and relatively speaking, it requires a higher level of technical skill. The techniques can re-create a realistic scene, as well as imaginary ones, expressing surrealistic ideas. The unfamiliarity expressed in my work is expressed through these methods.

Li: If l didn’t understand the political conditions, or if it were a time when political elements weren’t unique I would say that in “Made in 68” implies a certain absurdist utopia, muddled with some futuristic visual elements. Does it imply that this once practical and monumental building, with its strong political implications, will become a parable for natural landscapes and ruins in our future landscape of?

Cao: As a bridge, it is inherently an architectural construction. I can interpret it as a

physical building with certain memories attached to it, at the same time, a form with unique aesthetic characteristics of its era. Every building is representative of its era; this is especially true for the Nanjing Bridge. The architectural style is an adaptation of the traditional Chinese arch bridge, an extremely long arch bridge. The details reveal even more: the three red flags on the bridge tower, the carved ornamentation on the railing, the lighting, etc., all make it look obsolete. In retrospect, we could trace back its history to the time when it was built but what if we look forward, we could see the future and imagine the many possibilities. In my plan for my coming works I will present the diversity, although this work only explores the unfamiliarity of the scenery in the image. This is my main idea. Parable is expanding on the basic concept; this concept is a continuation of the value and significance of architectural remnants.

Li: This is also a topic that I am very interested in. Earlier we talked about politics, historical buildings and others issues, but if we leave those out and only talked about the symbolism in the “bridge,” I think it has a very special meaning by itself. If we were to consider it more abstractly, in your opinion, its path leading to the future and talking about his shape in the future, what would it be like exactly?

Cao: When we talk about a “bridge,” it has its own history—the history of the bridge; and is a practical piece of architecture, perhaps it is mentioned in architectural history; the third possibility is that it becomes art history, since it has its own aesthetic qualities, art historians should pay attention to it. Next would be a more general history, for instance, war history--you must have seen a war film called “Guihe Bridge,” where many historical events were related to bridges: the Lugou Bridge skirmish, the Luding Bridge battle, etc. When we take the implied meaning of the bridge and derive a certain meaning from it, it will take on all kinds of historical elements and events that are related. Therefore, what the bridge symbolizes here is not of utter importance, what I’m more interested in is its past and its future. *** The existence of history lies in its multiple interpretations; there are no concretely certain elements to it. Now, if I can judge in retrospect, I think that the future can likewise be estimated, imagining the future is the same; it is a varied course, a singular course. When we are seeking out this multifold process, I used a method to make the image into an exterior object: while choosing images I was looking for something more congealed, to make it feel more unified, more pure. At the same time I was searching for different spaces, different seasons, different environments with a combination of various environmental images within. When creating the work this causes an element of definite metaphorical attributes. Everything that it expresses in that shape should also be an embodiment of the multiple interpretations of history. Similarly, that direction of history should also have multiple aspects, even though in the end it still returning to the inevitable process of history, this is like the same result from two different roads, all strange paths produced in the process will make for something very interesting.

Li: The bridge still has a certain feeling--it’s a path “from here to there” that stops in the middle. So, how exactly did you design the “Here” to “there”? Speaking of time, how do these two points relate to your individual experience?

Cao: That’s a rather poetic question.

Li: It’s only “conjecture.”

Cao: My thinking actually hasn’t really made it to that point, that question is a little too academic. But actually, that is not in contradiction, we can all conjecture we are in an

objective status, that we can find many metaphorical meanings in the work, many academic narrative names, I think that all of that could be possible. That kind of academic poeticism and every person’s individual experience has an incredibly strong relationship. We were just talking about the “here” and the “there” phenomenon, if we used poems to explain, perhaps we could understand each person’s coordinates, these two coordinates can be linked together, they can also be split apart. In 2001 I did an installation work on Guilin’s Lijiang River, it was called “Breaking the Bridge.” On the bank of the river I built a bridge in the direction of the river, but I only completed half of it. It was intended to have a half-bridge feeling, the other half would have to be imagined, perhaps it was broken off or sunk in the river. That was a poetic work, like an ancient poem. The bridge essentially was something usurped by culture the most, not used with words like “broken,” but for “communications” “exchange.” All were indicating rather clear concepts, but what I was trying to say here wasn’t too obvious. I think, that the meaning of the bridge itself, its usefulness, and because of this a few cultural deritives.

Li: Here and there, outside from the bridge, are there any other meanings? Is it obliging a materialistic space? The omission of “there” has what effects on the work?

Cao: That kind of meaning should be derived from the viewers. As for the work itself, I only provided a path, the design and placement should be appreciated by each person individually, and here the basics of understanding the definition of the work. At the same time, everyone’s interpretation of the two spaces is different, the field and the material space created by this work are broader.

Li: In your virtual spaces no people appear, there is no life. For the bridge in its environment there is initially an environment. Assuming humans had no life, these works would have life, those objects that have life, material objects and their existence in a natural environment change and have no overstep. Is this work about a metaphor of time?

Cao: Because time is something created by humans. The bridge, as an existing piece of architecture, should have had life from the beginning. Architecture, humans, environment, they create an essential factor of the construction of the scenery. But in my scenes there never appears humans, but actually, I most importantly want to stress the lifelikeness of the bridge, the relationship between the architecture and natural cycle of life and death, it is a mutual dependency.

People are actually already changing their haves and have nots, these back and forthisms are not as good as speaking frankly. The earliest version of this work had sound, something like natural noises, but after putting it through the computer and finishing it we took the sound out. There was one time when we watched the video and forgot to put the sound on, the result was I felt the silent version was easier to help the viewer enter into the surroundings, so we took the sound out directly. That had its own reasoning. I felt that it was unnecessary, I though it should be more unadulterated, a more simple canvas, using a solidifying, static composition to explain problems.

When you stand in that closed off, lonely space, in front of you is a giant projected canvas, a silent canvas hallucinating in front of your eyes, a kind of lonely, solitary feeling will slowly arise. You don’t need people around you, and you don’t need sound, you just suddenly feel that solitary place is somewhere in an artistic conception, appreciating it.

In that state, you become very sensitive to time. Our inspiration comes from time, most of that comes from the heart, I simply wanted to use the work to produce a place where people could enter that meditative state, feel that sensitivity towards time. Here, time is not only a metaphor for the main character (ego) and the non-ego, more important is that time will produce a momentary pause, the stopping of time, that is what we com-

monly know as---â&#x20AC;&#x153;eternity.

政治的风景隐喻 访问人：李振华 被访人：曹恺 文字整理：姜迪 文字校对：李振华

李：请问你是从什么时候开始做媒体类作品的？大致的经历是怎样的？ 曹：1992年我从艺术院校毕业以后，就一直在电视媒体工作，我从那时起就一直处在一个媒体的大环 境里面。但是我真正用媒体手段来完成当代艺术作品，其实是相对比较晚的一个事情。我跟当代艺术 发生关系——就是第一次参加当代艺术的展览，是在1995年，而我的第一件录像装置作品完成是在 1998年，也就是说我差不多是在涉及当代艺术创作三年以后，才开始做第一件跟媒体有关的作品。在 之前的三年多时间当中，我是以架上形态的创作为主要手段，也有少量的一些小型的装置作品。但 是，就算是做装置，我觉得我那时还是一个平面的创作思维方式，就是它的语言还是从架上延伸出来 的。但是我做的架上作品，不是传统意义上的绘画样式的架上，而是一种材料样式的架上，确切地说 是一种综合材料类型的架上，这和我当时所处在南京的一个当代艺术圈的地域影响是有关系的。 到了1998年的时候我怎么会想到做一个媒体类的作品呢？其实也是一个被现场触发的动机。那年我在 南京做我的第二个个展，地点是在南唐李后主夏宫的遗址上，在勘察场地的时候，我感受到了那里某 种阴郁而鬼魅的氛围，觉得可以用影像和音响来表现，于是就有了我的第一件录像装置作品《独上西 楼》。 在这以前，因为我在电视台的多媒体部门工作，我当时可以非常方便地接触到广播电视级别的专业视 频音频设备、计算机设备，利用我的这个工作条件，已经有过一些艺术家请我帮他们做些媒体类的作 品，当时我也知道有录像艺术这种形式，但是它到底是怎么一回事情，它的起源、历史、重要的艺术 家和作品，我其实并不很清楚，可以说是一知半解。我在南京的地域限制也很少能接触到国外这方 面的资料，我记得最早看到两篇文章都是那个时候《江苏画刊》上面刊登的，一篇好像是吴美纯翻译 的，还有一篇是岛子写的，也是编译性质的，都是跟录像艺术有关的文章，可以说那时候的媒体资讯 是相对很贫乏的。几年后当我回过头来研究中国录像艺术的历史的时候，才发现其实那个时候在推动 中国录像艺术的进程方面，邱志杰他们已经做了很多工作。我那时跟他们没有接触，我是在一个相对 比较独立的环境当中开始媒体艺术的工作的。 李：我是在2001年看到你的作品《2069》。从《2069》这个作品到你的《六九年之夏》到现在的《六 八年制造》，那里边我觉得有一种挺吸引我的东西——就是从社会图像采样的拼贴，到《六八年制 造》这种完全使用静态三维图像的政治隐喻，你能不能说一下是怎样完成这个转变过程的？ 曹：《2069》差不多是在2001年的春天的时候完成的。其实这个作品没有完成，就是对我个人来说是 一个未最后完成的作品，其实也是一个挺失败的作品。因为我个人的自身的技术条件，资金条件等等 完全没办法驾驭这么大的一个构思。我是从2000年下半年就开始着手做，一直到2001年春天，很勉强 的完成了一个三分钟的版本。后来这个版本我都不愿意拿出来给别人看。从制作上来说，自己觉得挺 失败的，但是从观念上来说，当时是我创作中比较大的一个变化，就是在作品中开始呈现了对政治历 史的图像解读，尤其是对近现代史的重新解读。这成为我创作思考的一个方向，这个方向贯穿了我以 后五年的创作，一直到出现《六八年制造》这件作品。其实我到现在为止，还是沿着这个思考方向在 行进，现在还在行进的过程中。 2002年，我做了两个作品。一个就是《六九年之夏》，还有一个是《国际歌》。《国际歌》在国内基 本上没有怎么展出过，《六九年之夏》展出的比较多，也算我那一个阶段的代表作品。这两个作品都 是图像拼贴式的，就是先进行图像采样，然后用非线性合成技术拼贴，完全是一个现成品构架的作 品，图像现成品的再度整合。从某种角度上来说，你也可以把它算是一种动态的拼贴，是一个视频 的、录像画面的重新装配的过程。 那么《2069》跟这个类型在手法上是完全不一样的，当时我想做成一个纯三维的和真人实拍结合的作 品。但是我后来就发现这不是我个人创作方式所能驾驭的。我就想不如正好反过来思考：我既然我没 有办法做一个完全是原创图像的作品的话，索性就不如完全挪用图像。于是后来就有了《六九年之

夏》和《国际歌》这两个作品，这两个作品都是挪用过去式旧新闻片的这种方式创作的。 李：显然你完全原创三维图像的这个愿望在《六八年制造》里得到了完整的阐释——就是用三维制造 的桥梁形象和自然景观的融合。是什么让你把这种可能性做出来了？ 曹：我在2002年完成了两件作品以后，之后的两年我作品很少，我2003年只是有一件作品《中国频 道》，2004年几乎没有做作品，可以说是我的停滞期，创作的停顿期。其实那两年我感到思路需要调 整，就是我觉得如果我以后决定以数字媒体方式为我的主要创作手段的话，我需要在这个方面做重新 的自我补充。那是一个广泛阅读、大量思考、潜心写作的过程，那两年里，一个是我完成了《DV影像 前史》这本书的写作，差不多有10多万字，还有其他几篇相关的学术文章；另外一个是我做了一些独 立影像展映方面的策划活动，主要是“中国独立影像年度展”，我把触角延伸到整个非剧情影像史， 确立了自己的一个大影像坐标轴构架的学理基础。整个过程，对我之后的创作是学识上的重要补充和 重新奠基。 当我重新回过头来再进入创作的时候，因为我把实验电影、录像艺术、计算机艺术的历史彻底地梳理 了一遍，对整个新媒体时代的鸟瞰视角开始形成了。那么我所要做的就是在这一个大的历史格局和当 下格局当中，找到我所处的位置。相对而言，我自己对自己的现有坐标和未来坐标也能看得比较清楚 了，如何完成各个坐标点之间抛物线的连接，就需要我用一个个作品来完成。这和原来的那种以完全 感性自发的，凭一种创作冲动、创作本能，或者是受到一两个案例启发，然后进行创作的那种感觉完 全是不一样的。 所以我在做《六八年制造》这个作品的时候，可以说，是一次观念层面上和语言层面上的彻底变化。 虽然我主要的一个主题思考方向还是不变，但是在其他方面有很大的不同。一个就是重新开始用三维 建模的方式来做原创，但是从制作方式上说，不再是单枪匹马的一个人来完成，不再是一个人同时承 担三维建模、贴图渲染、后期合成制作，同时承担摄影、承担导演等等这样多方位的工作。我做了一 个团队的整合，就是有一批各方面的技术专业人士来共同完成这个作品。我就更加容易做到集中精 力，用于观念的视觉外化上；可以有更多的时间来进行思考，完成对作品整体性的把握，而不会为了 某一两个技术环节上的细节原因陷入窘迫，而中断进程解决技术课题。但是我之前多年在数字视频技 术上的研究，使我打下了很扎实的技术基础，虽然不再完全是自己上机操作完成作品，但是我因为了 解其中每一个流程和细节，使我可以很好地和合作者沟通，合理地选择相应的技术手段。《六八年制 造》这个作品的创作，从技术含量上来说，我觉得也是目前个人工作室所能够做到的最合理的发挥， 恰恰是目前我所能驾驭的感觉。 李：你的作品中对政治社会的历史性变革，表现的特别关心，我不知道你的创作的历史线索是什么？ 曹：从少年时代起，我就对政治历史颇感兴趣，哲学和历史类的书籍一直是我日常阅读的一种喜好、 消遣，虽然我不象专门的学者那样去研究政治历史，但是多年阅读所形成的潜移默化的影响和相关知 识的积累，其实也是很可观的。这其实已经是我自身的知识结构的一个重要组成部分。不过，这种兴 趣的内部是在不断发生变化的，最早的时候我和很多人一样，关注战争、关注重大历史事件、关注激 烈巨变时期的社会和人等等。但是，后来我的关注点就从宏观走向了微观——我更注意那些被遗忘、 被忽略的历史细节，对于一些已经湮没而不可再考的微观细节，我开始根据一些已知的断章残简来进 行分析、演绎、想象，并最终将其视觉化，而这种视觉化也是充满变形和写意的过程。另一个方面就 是对一些看似毫无关联的历史事件和人物进行重新裁剪、装配，使其产生新的意义。 李：那么就是说在你的《六九年之夏》、《2069》这些影片里，政治作为一个符号被很清楚的表达， 那在《六八年制造》里面，好像政治变成了一种形式的隐喻，你怎么看待这种晦涩的政治符号化，和 你问题的阐释方面有没有什么样的冲突，为你在作品的表达方面是否有推进的作用？ 曹：其实对于中国，我们这一批60年代末、70年代后的当代艺术家来说，政治的影响仍然是很大的。 而对我们上一代艺术家——50年代末到60年代后的那一批人来说，政治的影响几乎是致命的、是彻底 的。所以在他们那一代的艺术家的作品里你可以看到，他们作品里政治性的直接符号的运用是非常多 的。比如像是王广义的《大批判》就直接挪用了文革宣传画的符号。其实在90年代早期的政治波普， 在绘画领域的时候已经达到了一个相当高的高度。政治波普对中国共产主义运动的政治符号进行了 一种反讽式的运用，比如对毛泽东肖像的各种诠释方式，之后这种方式又延伸到其他当代艺术样式 中——装置、行为、多媒体等。一直到现在还是不间断的有人在使用，但是，使用的方式越来越晦涩 了。比如象我最近看到的尹朝阳画的毛泽东系列，他的表达方式和上一辈政治波普艺术家完全是不一

样的，他有他自己对过去历史的感悟和理解，是一种非常个人化的东西，因为有个人情结在，所以就 显得比较含蓄和晦涩。 政治符号在中国当代艺术中的使用，我觉得这是一个从直接到间接、从直白到晦涩的变化过程。为什 么会出现这样的现象，我自己也考虑过这个问题。这个我觉得最大的可能，就是对他们第一代政治波 普的这批艺术家来说，在他们的记忆里还是有一个政治符号直接呈现的东西，而且这种呈现是集体呈 现，他们是直面过的，就是集体面对面的、直面的这个过程，这是他们个人历史的一个组成部分。 李：你指的是“经验”吗? 曹：的确是个人经验。在他们的个人体验、个人经验里面是有过这样的直接记忆。但是对于我们这一 批人来说，那就只是一个童年的记忆残像，残存的图像，是一个不清晰的、有很少的一点混沌质感的 图像。但更多的理解是后来来自于文本，来自于别人的、长辈的口述，和我们的生存环境，生存空间 里还能够感受到的惯性、政治的惯性，是大政治时代的遗产。我还是能体会到这一点。政治这个东西 其实它本身无时不刻地存在于我们的当下的生活当中，但是它是一个被隐藏在表象之后的东西。那么 我觉得在作品当中同样是这样的，它也是被隐藏在作品图像的下面。 我关注的就是这样一个在图像表层之后的东西，比如象是《六八年制造》中的南京长江大桥。其实我 目前的工作室与长江近在咫尺，距离长江大桥不过也就是不到10公里这样一个距离。所以说南京长江 大桥它就存在于我日常生活和工作的空间里面，它至今为止也仍然是我生活的这个城市——南京的一 个重要的交通要道。当我面对这样的一个历史遗留下来的政治遗产的时候，对它的重新解读是跟以往 不同的。这个在我一篇文章里是写过的，一个是它的桥梁本身的实际的功效性是呈递减状态，相反， 作为一个时代的美学象征、一个政治文化遗址的这种含义是在上升的。那么这正好是一个一正一反的 过程。于是，我就找到了这样的一个切入点，在为一种熟悉的图像寻找它的一种陌生感，陌生的情景 感。所以，我可以把它置于荒原、把它置于沙漠、把它置于冰天雪地之中，甚至把它置于冰山溶化的 海水里面——各种的自然景观。主要是在寻找一种陌生感。 李：技术对创作产生了什么影响？陌生感通过非真实的三维图景表达的时候，是否会有不那么直接的 相互关联性？ 曹：技术与艺术创作之间应该是一种互动的关系。很多艺术家往往会藐视技术，认为观念决定一切， 技术的完成完全可以通过“雇佣”和“外包”的社会化操作方式完成；另外一种相反的倾向就是“技 术崇拜”，认为技术的更新可以决定观念上的突变，这种倾向在更年轻一代艺术家里面很有市场。我 觉得这是两种方向不一的危险的倾向，前者忽略了技术在艺术创作中的反作用力，片面强调创作主 体，这样在视觉外化的过程中容易失去控制；后者更是本末倒置的一种现象，创作过程中过分专注于 技术，会流于形式感，削弱观念始终贯穿其中的力量。 三维仿真技术在当今已经是一种成熟的艺术表达手段，相对而言，在各种技术手段中是含金量比较高 的一种。这种技术可以再现真实场景，也可以用再现技术摹仿非真实的场景，表达超现实的意境，而 我在作品里面所体现的陌生感，就是通过这种超现实的方式体现的。 李：如果我不了解政治的情况下，或者说政治因素并不是一个唯一的因素的时候，那我觉得在《六八 年制造》里面有一种荒诞的政治乌托邦，搀杂了一些未来感的视觉因素，对这样已经出现的带有实用 性和政治性的物理坐标式建筑，是不是可能隐喻了在未来的大自然图景中的一个遗留物的寓言？ 曹：作为一个桥梁建筑，它本身的内质是一座建筑。对这个建筑本身而言，我可以把它看作一个带有 记忆性的实体存在。同时，它作为一个具有独特的美学记印的视觉外化形象，也有着它特殊的时代特 征。每一个建筑都会代表它的一个时代特色。那么长江大桥就是一个时代特征特别明显的建筑。它的 整体桥梁构架方式上挪用了中国传统拱形桥，是一个奇长无比的一个拱形桥，而在它整个建筑的细节 上面更是如此：它的桥头堡上的三面红旗、栏杆的雕饰、装饰、灯的装饰等等，这一切赋予了它一个 过去时态的一个特征。如果往回看，是一个历史回顾的角度，是可以追溯它原来的历史，就是它建筑 形成时期的一个所造成固有的一个美学形态，但是如果我们往前看呢？我们也可以看到未来、想象未 来，这也是一个我们可以想象到的可能性，那么这个可能性应该是具备多样性的。这在我创作的系列 计划当中，下面的作品将会呈现这种多样性。那么，在现在这个作品当中，还暂时是单一性的，还只 是寻找一种在图像上的一种陌生的情景感。这个是我最主要想表达的一个意思。寓言，是在此基础上 扩充的一个概念，这个概念延伸了建筑物存在的价值和意义。 李：这也是我特别感兴趣的一个问题，刚才说到政治性、历史建筑等等这些问题。其实我们把这些问

题都不谈。就单纯作为一个“桥”这个符号来说，我觉得它本身有一种特别特殊的意义。你觉得就这 个方面而言，就是作为“桥”本身的这个隐喻的空间和外部不断变换的时间，构成了现在这个自然环 境。如果我们将其抽象化来讲，对你来说，它的通向未来的通道以及说它在未来的形态到底是个什么 样子？它的方向应该是什么样的？ 曹：首先讲到桥、桥本身，就是它具有桥梁自身的历史——桥梁史；也可以把它算作一种实用性的建 筑，桥梁本身都会涉及到建筑，那么它又涉及到了建筑史；第三个可能就是美术史，因为桥的建筑它 毕竟会带有一定的美学特征，那么美术史也是会关注到它。那么再下面的一个历史，就是一个更宏观 的历史，比如，可能是战争史——我们都看过一部和战争历史有关的电影《桂河大桥》，历史上可以 找到很多跟桥梁有关的事件，象卢沟桥事变、泸定桥战役等等。当我们把桥梁的含义给引申开来的时 候，那么它是会有很多历史因素的发生与之相关的。所以，桥梁在这里符号的象征意义不是最重要 的，我更关心的是它的过去史和未来史。 历史是存在于多线进程中，它也是最具不确定因素的。那么如果是对过去的追溯可以如此判断，我觉 得对未来的追溯也是这样的，对未来的一个想象也是这样的，它也是一个多线进程的，它不是单一线 性发展的过程。当我们来寻找它的多线进程的时候，我把它做了一个图像的外化的方式：在图像的选 择上，我追求画面更加凝固，让它更加单一、更加纯净；同时寻找各种不同的空间、不同的季节、不 同的天空环境和地理环境，综合在环境因素里面。这使得在作品产生的时候就带有一定的隐喻性，它 所呈现的这个状态，也应该是一个历史多线进程的体现。 同样，这样的历史方向也应该是多方位的，虽然最后还是会回到历史的必然进程中，但是在这个殊途 同归的过程中所产生的异常路径，会是一件非常有意思的事情。 李：桥梁还有一个感觉——它是一个跨越“从此端到彼端”的中间通道，那你又是怎么设置这个“此 端”和“彼端”？在这两个端点在时间上跟你的个人经验有什么样的关系？ 曹：你这个问题就比较“诗”化了。 李：只是“假设”。 曹：我的思考倒还没有超出它的美学范畴，你的这个问题更加文学化一些。不过其实这里也不矛盾， 就是我们可以假设自己以一个旁观的身份，对这个作品可以给它很多文学性的隐喻、很多文学性的描 述性的语言，我觉得这些都是可以成立的。这种文学性的诗化方式和每个人的个人经验是有着极大关 联的，你刚才说到“此端”和“彼端”的概念，如果用诗化方式，或许就可以理解为个人经验的中的 两个坐标点，而这两个坐标点之间可以是有连接通道的、也可以是断裂的。2001年的时候我在桂林漓 江上做过一个装置作品《断桥》，就是在岸的一端建造了一座伸向漓江的石拱桥，不过建造了一半， 故意做成断掉的效果，另一半就需要想象为断裂后沉没在江中，这就是一件非常诗化的作品、非常古 典诗化的作品。那么就桥梁它本身而言，自身含义被这种文化上指代最多的，不是“断裂”，而就是 象“沟通”、“交流”这样的一些词语，都是一个指向相对比较明确的概念。但是这种指向在我这里 倒并不太明确，我觉得，可能就是桥梁本身存在的意义会大过它的一些实际的使用价值和由此产生的 一些文学性的一些引申含义。 李：彼端与此端，在这个桥梁之外，是否有着其他的意义？是否预留了物理空间？省略此端与彼端对 作品有什么影响？ 曹：这个方面的意义应该是对观看者而言，对作者本身而言，我只提供了通道。端点的设置应该是每 个人自己的理解、以及在此理解基础上的自定义。同样这两个端点每个人的理解会是不一样的，所以 与其预先设置还不如省略，这样产生的“场”、产生的“物理空间”也会更机宽广。 李：在你虚拟的空间里面没有人的出现，也就是没有生命出现，而桥及其相关的自然景观本身却存在 着。假定人是没有生命的，这些景观就是有生命的，那这些有生命的物体，物体本身和它所存在的自 然环境变得不可逾越。这个作品是否是对时间的隐喻？ 曹：因为建筑是人创造的物。桥梁——作为一个建筑物的存在，本身它应该是有生命的。建筑、人、 环境，它组成了一个风景构成的的几个要素。但在我的风景这里面没有出现人，我其实主要是要更强 调体现桥梁本身的生命感，就是这个建筑本身和自然生死存亡的关系，一种相互依存的关系。那么， 人其实是已经在这个画面里变得可有可无了，那么这样的可有可无还不如索性拿掉。这个作品一开始

最早的版本，原来还有声音——自然界声音的采样，在计算机里再加工处理后合成，有一次看片子时 候忘记开声音，结果我觉得静音时候的画面更加能让人进入其中，所以索性连声音都全部删减掉了。 这是一个道理。我觉得就是不需要，就是觉得应该是一个更加纯净，更加单纯的一个画面，用一个凝 固、静态的构图来说明问题。 当你站在那个一个封闭的、没有其他人的空间里面，前面就是巨大的投影画面，一个安静的、没有声 音的画面在眼前变幻，一种很寂寞的、孤独的感觉就会慢慢升起。你周围不需要人，也不需要声音， 你就好像独自处在一种意境里，享受其中。 在这样的状态中，时间就会变得很敏感。人对时间的感悟，其实来源于心理，我所希望的就是用作品 产生的“场”来让人们进入感悟的状态，对时间的感悟。时间在这里不仅仅是对主体和客体的双重隐 喻，更重要的是时间会在作品里产生瞬间的停顿，时间的停止，就是我们通常而言的——“永恒”。

The Multi-threaded Narrative of Foreign National Sentiment Interviewer: Li Zhenhua Interviewee: Qiu Zhijie Li: Let’s talk a bit about your work “The West,” when did you start to create this work.

Qiu: “The West” was begun just about after my nationalist sentiment began to stir.

Li: How do you explain it?

Qiu: Through my study of calligraphy, since I was young I received a rather orthodox and traditional education, but throughout the 1990s everything that I read was Western philosophy and theory in translation. In 1997 I changed, I started to use a rather international perspective to think about all of the concepts and influences that we were receiving.

At that time I started to compare and to prepare different materials. It was in 1999 that I started concentrating on that work. It was just after the Americans bombed the Chinese embassy in Yugoslavia. At that time, seeing university students attacking the American Embassy, many Chinese had different reactions. During the peak of attack, the most grieved and angry ones were the students who had bleached yellow hair. Little Brats. Their heads are all blonde, sitting in protest throughout the entire night with their lit candles. (laughs) The nationalism was zealous, lamenting the accident victims. So watching that kind of worshipper of Western culture, superficially so anyways, I suddenly experienced a turnaround, suddenly becoming taking a fervent, opposite stance. At that time I started to compare, deeply begin work on the project. It was like that.

Li: This work is emphasizing a social position?

Qiu: Correct. This work was heavily influenced by this critical social event. Of course, on the other hand, at that time before and after 1996 I felt all along like some sort of video art “missionary.” I knew about this new media development, and I had a general grasp on the international progress in that arena. On the mainland actually only Feng Mengbo was doing interactive multi-media at that time. But Feng Mengbo only changed the form, he did not change the essence; he used the best software to produce the oldest nature of art, something like Political Pop on the canvas. Then you have me, from a media point of view, I was using this kind of thought: how to use the most common software, most idiotic programs, like Microsoft PowerPoint, to make relatively new content. But in that time, creating in 1999, technological conditions were rough, I was still using a dial up connection, so I didn’t have the means to turn it into an online artwork. In the end it was in a “CD-ROM” format that I let people know about my work. Even till today I haven’t truly solved the packaging problem. (laughs) Li: I have the files of your work “The West,” a lot of the links are broken.

Qiu: Yeah, those links are always problematic, every time move to a new computer host, I have to re-link them. It always reoccurs, because the packaging problem is not very well solved.

Li: What do you hope the final shape of this artwork?

Qiu: I think that the ideal outcome of this work would be a forum or a web site. That

way all kinds of different people could share their opinions. That way it’s no longer the work of just one person. Actually, doing this kind of work satisfies another side of my considerations.

Of course, sometimes when I’m making art, I use primarily my imagination. But this kind of work satisfies another aspect of my consideration. The two create a sort of tension.

I think that if a person only does strange things that appear all deep and spiritual, he will eventually have no realistic considerations, and the work has no power, pure imagination has no strength.

Contrastingly, pure reality without adding any thing often has a great strength. But, that power passes quickly, it never reaches certain heights; it’s not something that can surpass people’s experiences. That is no different from what a reporter does. If you want something like that, work for television company, play ball, struggle for a broadcasting or some media job, constantly challenge the bottom line of your news censor, that’s the best way to satisfy your moral needs. I do that kind of thing and always feel like it’s a struggle. I’m attracted to two things, sometimes I want to make fun things, other times I want to collect, make some sort of collection of things.

About “The West,” I think that the most ideal incarnation would be a forum. It needs more interactivity. Currently it’s akin to myself providing a few possible paths, there is definite possibility, simple interactivity. There is one benefit to this way, actually in my gathering process I started doing the editing. I was able to emphasize and stress certain phenomena.

Li: What kind of phenomena are you emphasizing? You must have had a purpose at the time?

Qiu: I did. One was the quirkiness that people were expressing as they were entering into this period of consciousness, like being finicky. Then, the Chinese art world will often discuss the concept of the “West.” The academic world will also often discuss the concept of the “West.” In the West, there is often a discussion of “Eastern” concepts, books such as “Post-colonialist Theory” and “Orientalism” appear. It is basically a common topic in classrooms, when people are criticizing post-colonial history they will say the “Orient” is a constructed target/opposite, the “Orient” is a misinterpretation of the East by Western scholars, the “Orient” is this and it is that. Turn it around and it is the same. We also created a “West” that plays many different roles in different eras of history. Maybe at one moment they are “invaders,” sometimes they are the “common enemy of the Africans, Arabs and Asians” or the “Imperialists” sometimes we specially singling out the United States and the United Kingdom. Other times they are the “partners in the opendoor policy” or “strategic cooperation partners” and then other times they are “demons” or the “angels of democracy,” Mr. Science and Mr. Democracy.

We are always changing in a changing world, and actually these changes are all related to our hopes. Moreover, the “West” is interpreted differently by different individuals. This difference exists in different times, in different groups, even on the same individual in the same period but in different emotion/physical state. In the same period of time, facing different events, different opinions/information are provided. Therefore a very important part of this work is to help with the self-understanding. When it is showed overseas, it also helps Western people to understand themselves. It is a two-way communication.

Actually, the main focus should be on the revealing of how people bring their own desire and prejudice into the description of their study subject, and how biased those opinions are, yet firmly believed, sometimes they could be as weird and as marvelous as an art work.

Li: Some academics deliberately give a definition to “West”, don’t they? What is your opinion on this? It seems that there exists a clear line in historical documents.

Qiu: People in different occasions, especially in seminars, no matter what, just like to use “The West”. For instance, people who paint traditional Chinese painting came to our place, then they would say, your stuff is all Western. Actually, when we talk about “Eastern” or “Western,” when we fiercely debate in those seminars, we all fall into a trap. When we talk like this, it is as if there only exist “West” and “East”. We forget where Arab countries are? Where is Africa? Is Latin America “West” or “East”? Therefore, the work “West” in CD-ROM is more like a notebook of mine: I can develop one part of it into an installation, or a performance art. Sometimes I will hyperlink to this work, sometimes I won’t. For a period of time, I didn’t update it.

For example, we made an architectural exhibition at the National Museum of Fine Art. I have made a video installation called “Sculpture from the West--Nirvana”. It was a readymade roman style column, from the construction material market, with “The Amita Sutra” in fluorescent pigment with the Buddhist scripture describing nirvana. In normal light, the words couldn’t be seen, one only saw a roman style column. But when the words could be seen, the column was blurred. Then there was a video clip showing the ruins of the ancient Summer Palace that was an idea of the “West” beginning with the “Ancient Summer Palace.” That was an example of an installation made from the scrapbooks of the “West”.

Taking another example at an exhibition in Hangzhou. I handed out a number of world maps and asked people to cross the “Non Western Country,” resulting in a very interesting outcome. Some left Japan in the map, some didn’t. At last, a lot of different “Western Maps” were obtained, which demonstrated different imaginations in a geographical image.

“West” is in a form of a group of island, because people fill China with blue color. China and India would definitely be crossed. Some people left Russia there, some crossed the part of Russia in Asia… some even left America alone. I probably collected over a hundred such maps. So this behavior, an event with audience participation, is related to the “West” CD-Rom. It becomes a junction of one kind of my works: surveys, cultural studies, sociology-related.

Li: Do you think the “Crossing Non Western Country” is a product of “post-colonism” ?

Qiu: I don’t think there is “post-colonism” problem in China since it was never been a colony.

Li: I mean the “post-colonism” problems in world history.

Qiu: Correct. Therefore China doesn’t have this problem. Originally we only have a concept called “land under heaven”, but no concept of “international” “West” and “East” fall into the concept of “international.” Chinese don’t make a distinction here, but “land over heaven.” So, “West” as a concept pointing to certain countries or civilization is not Chinese’s invention. Of course, in tradition, Chinese have the saying of “South Barbarian, North Barbarian, East Barbarian and West Barbarian”. As Chinese culture was so far advanced ahead of others, there was no purpose for comparing them. The geographical location was not a parameter for cultural comparison, thus, not misleading either. The earliest reference of a “westerner” in historical documents is “Queen of the West,” probably the head of a friendly tribe living in the Kunlun Mountains.

The concept of “West” only emerged when Chinese and Indian civilizations met. In this period “West” specifically referred to India, or Nirvana. In the legend, Laozi went “West”

on the back of a gray ox, exited from “Hangu” fortress to the “West”. It was said he went to a foreign country to teach their king and people called him “Sakyamuni”. A sacred text called “Laozi Becomes a Foreigner” discusses this. It was also an inspiration of some of my works. It was the result of the collision of Buddhism and Taoism. However, today’s interpretation of “West” is a mixture. Or the reason that the “West” can become a topic is indeed related to the invasion and colonism. If we had an interpretation to the colony history in our culture, which was completely different from the one we had in the period of colony, we probably could call it “post-colonism.” But my personal opinion is even at that time, different people had different understanding, there were “comprador,” “Battle against British at Sanyuanli,” and “The Boxer Rebellion”. Between the extremities of “compradors” and “The Boxers,” there exist many different attitudes, which actually extend into today. Therefore, it is only a succeeded state of colony history. It would not be appropriate to call it “post-colonism.” We don’t have a history of colonies. “Postcolonism” is a typical concept developed in the Middle East, proposed by Arabic scholars, which is enriched by scholars from the Southern Asia with their experiences. It doesn’t exist in China. There are some similar topics, but essentially different.

Li: I raised this question because you talked about the Maps. It is probably we haven’t experienced “colonism”, no colonial history––therefore our concept of “colonism” is beyond the imagination. Yes, so including what you have mentioned, how we perceive Japan. It is “West”, but not really “West”. Have you made the distinction in your work, for example, in which time how the “West” looks. How can we distinguish the “West” geographically and regionally?

Qiu: I did. In its current status, this work has a tree structure. Exploring from the homepage, there are categories like “What is West”, “Where is West”, “The Good West” “The Bad West”. Within “Where is West” and “What is West”, it is categorized by types.

For example, when we talk about “West”, our “bad” impressions could be “violent”, “greedy”; “good” could be “wealthy”, “democratic” and “scientific.” Grouped by concepts.

When we think of “West”, which vocabularies popped to mind? Grouped by stages, by periods, for example, from the age of Buddhism to Christianity, from Matteo Ricci’s time to “The Boxer Rebellion,” to the time when China started to build railways. In the 50’s, everyone was required to learn Russian dance, was named with a Russian name. To 70’s and 80’s, Wen Shuke talked in her work about purchasing a pair of jeans. Her folks got worried, thinking she was about becoming a bad girl. That was the time when all she dreamed of was a pair of jeans. Now, the kids play with stateboards, and bleach their hair, it is another time. Actually, it was all started by my passion for making a newsreel. At that time I wanted badly to make an intellectual newsreel, with observation, then notes, collecting materials, with descriptions and critiques. Then it becomes this. It was an urge to make a newsreel. But, then, I realized by my character, I couldn’t make any newsreel.

Once I started, I would become participant. I believe if I started a newsreel about peasant labors, I would become a lawyer to protect their rights. Therefore I forced myself to be out of the scene, making it more of an editing work. How “West” is presented was a choice by elimination of choices.

Li: You used PowerPoint, presentation software. What does this non-linear model bring to your work?

Qiu: First, as in a non-linear model, you can free yourself from arranging the time order, which is actually choosing not to take certain responsibility. By avoiding this aspect of editing. You leave this responsibility to your audience; you won’t violate their wills. To certain extent, you don’t arrange your audience to listen to one opinion, then another, or first negative then positive, which may result different conclusion. “West” puts all possibilities side by side, which also indicates my own confusion. One advantage is that I can

avoid jumping into a conclusion too quickly, so keep a more neutral perspective. Although Powerpoint can only realize very limited interactivities, it is less forcible than a linearly arranged, well presented form. The second advantage is the extensibility to the work. It is very easy to edit this media. Once I have new materials, new observations, I will insert to it, making the file bigger and bigger. At that time, DVD and DVD burners were uncommon, I was worried what if this file grew out of a CD-ROM? Would I need to take the hard drive to exhibitions? It was a concern at that time. It was the second advantage, brought by the technology I used. The third one is that the combination of images and text are completely different from the subtitle in a newsreel. The text is not something just flashes off the screen, but can be considered and reconsidered. The only functionality of Powerpoint which is not well used is playing audio. I used a good amount of video in the work. The video part was well done, but the audio part was fairly bad. I totally gave up the control of sound. Of course, it is also because of my whole work which doesn’t have a strong emotional emphasis. So, “West” is more like a forum. As a forum, the amount of information collected is definitely limited by its format as a CD-ROM, it must be put online. It was the product of that time. If I could make it again today, of course I will continue the work, because I set up a website now, with very big storage.

I will definitely turn “West” into an online project.

Li: It has been about 8 years, why is it not turned into an online project?

Qiu: It has been 8 years since it was first showed in ICA, London. The first 3 years, it was updated, but in the last 5 was not, even though my understanding to this question goes deeper. In one sense, “Asian Time is directly related to it. It is the satisfaction to my care for social anthropology and sociology, not unlike “West”. From my work “Pingpang” in 1996, to “The West” in 1999, to the current work “Asian Time”, a video of this scale, they are all aligned, including my current work, which is probably largely replaced by teaching. I make it into some teaching projects, or for example, I wrote the column– –”Text from the bottom”––for a “SOHO Tabloid”, then I led the students to survey on paintings with “Tibet” scheme. Besides Western people’s imagination of Tibet, Chinese as well have imagination of Shangri-La. This survey, like “West,” is a deconstruction of our imagination. Because everyone tends to think like this: he/she has been living in this imagination, as living too long in it, it becomes a truth. When he/she was challenged with different opinions, it is possibility that he/she starts thinking differently, making thousands of comments, amazed by the diversity of human feeling, sensibilities and experiences. I believe for most people who are not bully, he/she won’t immediately respond “nonsense!” If the other person truly presents them with many facts, he/she would think why this person would think that way. Therefore, some part of the urge was replaced by new work, for instance, teaching. For example, making “Asian Time” took two to three years, two years more accurately. The filming took 2 years. Editing and cutting are still going on. The teaching work already lasts for 3 years. So, the actual time was from 1999 to 2003. That’s it. I started teaching at the China Academy of Art in 2003. I started filming “Asian Time” in 2002. Since I started teaching, my passion for this kind of work was replaced by more detailed projects such as teaching students to survey, “The Survey of Zhongshan Park”, etc. I think if I put it online, it would grow all by itself, which may also leads to some nonsense, resulting in the website being censored. Anything is possible.

Li: You mentioned earlier that in this work, you returned the power to the audience, we were constructing a information system providing information through different indexes.

Why did you make only one such work? Why you didn’t use this model in our succeeding works? Or is this model unsuitable for you?

Qiu: I don’t know why I didn’t do it again. It may because I keep telling myself this work is not finished. It can be worked on and on. So no other similar works. It is only

part of the reason. Actually, later I did a “social portraits” in a courtyard. There were roman style columns, and lions, which were all linked to this work. This work is more like a notebook, if published without any judgment, it is flat, just a pile of photos.

Therefore it can be seen as an urge expressed by this kind of works, a naive urge to present a certain event. It was supposed to be with both description and critiques, but the critiques were left out. And, I was anti-art at this time. The reason that I shot the photos like writing to a bulletin board, was largely because the spread of “conceptual photography” in China, which made me sick. At that time, 1993 and 1994, I started using photograph as a media to do my work in Hangzhou. It was because there was no place to exhibit installation works and behavior art. I had to use photo. I didn’t know Cindy Sherman, or Jeff Wall at that time; it was only because I didn’t have other means, just made it up. Those best selling works such as “Tattoo-No” and others were all taken in 1994 in Hangzhou. I was forced to use photography without knowing what photography was.

Around 1999, actually it was after 1999, photography became a trend. All of them started to point and click, point and click, then “Photoshop” it, this annoyed me. I started becoming against art. I thought it was not bad if one can shot like a reporter, be a calm observer to the society. Because meanwhile, many people were providing their “intriguing thoughts” to society, they started to critique their own work. In fact, their “thoughts” were not “intriguing” at all, but filled with superficial observation, less interesting than a more plain observation from a realistic angle. The latter at least has some value as a historical reference, I don’t know if it has any value as an art work, may not have any. Because I was anti-art at that time, annoyed by art. At least, it was real.

Li: Is that more realistic to you?

Qiu: For a certain period of time, yes.

Li: This work of yours gives me an impression that it is related to your later work “Post-Sensitivity.” But I am not sure.

Qiu: Actually they are about the same time. Because “Post-Sensitivity” was also during this period, it lasted until 2005 when those people changed the name to “United Scenes.”

I don’t know what’s happened to it later, since nobody uses this name anymore. We can say as people participated in “Post-Sensitivity” that became full-fledged, they started to pursue their own directions. “Post-Sensitivity” was a ladder that provided them with the possibility to do something else. To be fair, they did what they wanted to do at that time, now they shifted their interests to somewhere else. The main work of “Post-Sensitivity” was done from 1999 to 2003. That was the period when people focused on the work, and worked hard together. Look, “West” shows a special care to the society, whereas “PostSensitivity”, in other people’s eyes, is often misinterpreted with a strong anti-society tendency. And images of the very personal, very extreme were very shocking and very weird.

From the surface, the two are opposite of each other. It is the first time that I have ever heard that people think they are related. I’d rather like to hear your understanding of this.

Li: I think it is because of the multi-threads. Both have many threads, uncontrollable.

That’s just my gut feeling.

Qiu: “Post-Sensitivity” evolved from my annoyance to the conceptual art, a very clear dislike for concepts. I was indeed thinking of how to make that work into an installation. I had really spent some thoughts on it, and talked with engineers exploring the possibility.

A shadow is cast on the floor. When you reach that spot, it is as if you push a button. It was all possible, but very complicated. I was thinking about that. If it was

turned into an object, it was more of a physical experience. You made a good point, the uncontrollability. “Post-Sensitivity” emphasized on a physical scene, while “West” is a conceptual scene. Our physical scene came from the objection to the art with standard concept, it was turned to against to the rigid exhibition system in 2001, then the theatrical tendency appeared. After that it was anti-individualism, setting up a few game rules against individualism, at the same to stress on the theatrical effect. That was what we referred as the on-spot feeling--it was a mixture, it was unpredictable. Later we reached the point of “United Scenes”. I feel the problem of “United Scenes” is this: it was never based on any deeper theory, was more of a get-together with friends. As it went on, every person had his/her own problem, his/her own purpose. It was impossible to unite everything with one or two rules. Thus there were more fouls in “United Scenes” than in “Post-Sensitivity”. Until the Guangzhou Biennale, “United Scenes” was dead because everybody gave up on it. I am not sure if Shiqing fouled, but Liu Ding definitely did, Zhang Hui refused to play along. I believe I didn’t give up. Because I strictly followed the rules we decided on: 8 hours, with time unit, complete a work within this time unit. I didn’t foul, but I made my work out of the scene. It was more like a piece of work for myself.

Strictly speaking, that work was not showed. Therefore, after that event, I was thinking about “the scene”. It must become a “historical scene”. It should not rest at the physical level, but reach the ideological level. If it was turned into historical scene, it would be in accord with “West”.

“The West” would nearly have resulted in other happenings. It was first exhibited in ICA “Beijing in London” curated by Karen Smith and Wu Meichun. It was the first time shown overseas. It was shown later in my solo exhibition in New York. Then the biennale in St. Paul. However, the most interesting experience was the participation of an anthropology seminar organized by Umberto Eco, the famous Italian semiologist. It was a multi-cultural seminar, with many invited scholars working in the area of anthropology to Italy.

Zhao Dingyang (philosopher), Wang Mingming (anthropologist) and I created a group called “Perception and Delusion”. We planned to make an experimental newsreel, called “New Journey to the West”, applied for funding from the EU. It was probably “The West” in action. I would play the Monkey, Wang Mingming the Pig, and Zhao Dingyang that Monk, then we three would travel in Europe with a trunk. That trunk’s name would be Tang Seng (the monk). Then we would paddle the objects in the trunk in the journey at the same time purchase more, colleting things in the trunk. There were more detailed plans including hiring a survey company to poll on the most influential concepts in China. The ten most influential concepts and ten most influential persons, etc. Those could be directly put into the work of “West”. If it were done, for example hiring survey company, or publishing online, it would be the historical scene I am talking about. Unfortunately it was an unaccomplished plan. The French Government was willing to pay, but restricted the travel to 10 French cities. We selected 10 cities in Europe, mapping to the cities in “the Journey to the West”, for example, Auschwitz was the “White Skeleton Cave”; Manchester, the origin of textile industry during the Industrial Revolution, “Spider Cave”; Amsterdam “The Country of Women”; Florence, an important place in Renaissance, “Violet Country”; The result was that the EU wouldn’t sponsor the project; the French government did, but in condition of choosing 10 cities within France. If we accepted it, we would feel violated.

So the plan was tabled. We also designed many artworks in situ similar to “Post-Sensitivity.” For instance, Wang Mingming could disguise himself a beggar, knocking on people’s door, by saying “I am a Chinese. My wallet and passport were picked. I am hungry. Give me food! Give me money!” Then we would make some candid snapshots. There were some things really similar to that.

Li: You are saying it looks like many small ideas, but by overview, they are all included in a bigger one, which is not a very clearly conscious shape, is that right?

Qiu: Correct.

Li: This work is very important to my research of “The Multi-media Art in China since 1989”. Because after 1989’s “Wall” event, the end of the Cold War, “East” and “West” became a hot topic. Many scholars, from all areas of research, and artists were discussing this question. I think it was the end of this topic.

Qiu: The reason I didn’t continue the development of this CD-ROM is that I had new ideas. Look, there is a book project in my computer. I have already published a few… those are published. Here are some of my thoughts on creation, and curator’s interview, my articles about artists. One of the book projects called “West”. Here is the outline of the book, how this book would be. It includes multiple choice, it’s an interactive book.

It also extends to this, including the explanation of “Foreign”, “West”, “Out” in dictionaries, missionary architecture and Chinese churches. Then, all kind of courses… I am collecting images for this book. It is probably why I stopped the CD-ROM, want to turn it into a book. It was a kind of writing, interactive writing. In fact, we should have one thing, a forum, and a printed version, a magazine, or a book to arrange the materials, making it something worth chewing on.

Li: But since I didn’t finish my last sentence, I was saying after 2000, it seems that globalization became especially hot. So do you think it is meaningful to keep talking about the “West”? Or let’s say reconsider this question, after 8 years, what’s the value of reconsidering it?

Qiu: I don’t think it is a past tense. I need to go deeper, and in more detail. We can say “Asian Time” is a deeper exploration of “West”. Because when I talked about time in the scope of Asian using the Christian Gregorian calendar, it plays the role of “West”. “The West”, this interactive work presents a general idea, which is more abstract. This generalization covers rich facts underneath, whereas “Asian Time,” to a certain degree, reveals the idea of different individuals. My own work is based on the coordination of Western civilizations, shouldering a responsibility of explaining our own culture. It is also a very important work to do a “self-autopsy.” The calligraphy work I did, the photographs of practicing calligraphy are all related to self-examination and self-understanding. Because of our misinterpretation and an imagined “West,” we also construct misinterpretations and imagine things of our own. If we tab the “West” with scientific, democratic, with better ships and cannons, and correspondingly tab the “East” with mystery, then start promoting the Yiching, Fengshui and Taiji. Therefore it is a process of synchronization, and how do we picture ourselves. “Globalization” is a very crude word. Globalization for what? Political Globalization or Economical Globalization? Similar to “West”, it must in put into a concrete contact for discussion. Taking the example of calendar, it means different things to different people, and it was reconstructed in a different context. Of course people still can make a work about “globalization”. I think “West” still has its value, this topic is still ongoing. Look at my blog, my blog has many visitors, 1000 visits per day, but not many people leave comments. But once the one about American visa was posted, 4 comments were made instantly. It is still a very sensitive topic, and invites many discussions.

Because it is so difficult to pass.

Li: Which means you believe imagination still exists, or, people still react that way when they encounter the problems in daily life?

Qiu: Globalization will never really happen. We still have difficulty applying for American visas. So that kind of problem will still exist in the future. And as Christmas becomes more accepted, that will also be a problem.

Li: So is it possible to shrink down Western consciousness? To turn it into a substitute for violence?

Qiu: To some people yes, but for others, no. For example, when the Shanghai government uses the Bund to apply for a UNESCO World’s Heritage title, they must not think so.

They are truly proud of the Bund, because there is a history there.

Li: But the architecture on the Bund, is it not a remainder from colonial times?

Qiu: It is. Recognizing it as part of history, even a part that one can be proud of, is indeed a change in our frame of mind.

Li: Isn’t there similar problem in Chinese history? For example, the Yuan dynasty by Meng nation, some people don’t think it should be included in Chinese history, which is not a fair viewpoint.

Qiu: Foreign invasions into China happened countless times in history. There are only two outcomes. One is the mixing of the bloodline, like “Five nations in mainland”. Chinese don’t value bloodlines very much. Our “Poet Saint” Li Bai is not a pure Chinese. We distinguish our people by “education,” basically if the foreigners believe in Confucius, they were considered Chinese. Mongolians accepted Confucius, therefore they became an orthodox dynasty, the same thing with the Qing Dynasty. They were accepted because they respected and believed in Confucius, otherwise they would have been driven out.

Li: In this case, if one day Western people believe in Confucius, they will be...?

Qiu: …accepted as our people. Maybe! Till this point the “East” the “West” speaking strictly in racial terms, of course is rather shallow. Because Chinese people just don’t talk about the concept of nationalism. From a cultural aspect, actually from a cultural aspect it is a rather simple differentiation. And the religious differentiation is actually also rather effective. It’s just that even though Confucianism is not a religion, but Christianity, Islam, all is because of a cultural conflict on behalf of religion. Religion is in diametrical opposition to culture. The problem today is of course very serious, we could even say more serious that in 1999. But for me personally perhaps that’s not the case. For people in the Middle East, the problem is too serious, especially after 911. So actually I also have the work on 911 “World Trade Center Sky Burial Mound,” actually of that could be considered as being linked to something. Its most essential function is in my creations, in my creations there is always some kind of thing that is playing the part of the laptop computer. You can take out that section and tackle this exhibition, deal with this event. So, “The West” is one of those things, on the topic of calligraphy, perhaps that’s another thing.

Li: I don’t think that it entirely is, from my perspective, “The West” is the most interesting work from among your cannon. But perhaps what I say is the best compared to what you say is the most uncontrollable thing by you, the most able to reflect reality, perhaps most relative. And then also with different kinds of completely interactive threads, it can construct many kinds of relationships with viewers, so it’s the most interesting. Also, what makes it interesting is that it uses the most basic software to achieve its interactivity. Actually, what is interactivity? I think that in this work it is explained suddenly very clearly, interactivity can be very simple. And that can bring down our doorbell, or to say, how will others do this kind of informational exchange and comparison. I think it achieves the most basic mode of interaction.

Qiu: There are very few interactive works on the Internet. Most of the works can only

be clicked, but nothing else. The most important is that “The West” is not a strict treestructure. It doesn’t require returning to the root before exploring to the next branch.

The tree-structure has been developed into a network structure. So you don’t need to return to where you came from. I think this is the key point: it can be turned into a world, paralleling to the real one. People can enter. It’s pity that the content and angles aren’t rich enough. But this can be solved by putting the work online.

异国情调的多线性叙述 访问人：李振华 被访人：邱志杰

李：老邱，我们聊一下关于你的作品《西方》，那个作品是什么时候开始做的？ 邱：《西方》那个作品大概是从我的民族主义情绪起来之后。 李：你怎么解释？ 邱：通过书法的学习，我从小受到比较正统的传统思想教育，但是整个九十年代中期所读的全是翻译 过来的西方哲学理论。到97年的时候有了一个变化，开始用一种比较国际化的眼光来考虑我们自己所 收到的观念的影响。那时候，就开始比较，开始准备一些材料。然后，比较集中的开始做那个作品是 99年，就是美国人炸中国南斯拉夫使馆。在那次事件中，看到大学生们去冲击美国使馆，各种中国人 有各种各样的反应。而且在冲击美国使馆的时候最激烈的，显得最悲情的，就是那些染着黄头发的学 生。小屁孩们。头上都染着黄头发，围坐在那里，一整个通宵，点着蜡烛。（笑）在那里哀悼死难 者，民族情绪最强烈。所以就这种非常崇洋的，或者表面上很洋的小孩，他可能突然间一翻身，就变 成一个非常激烈的相反的立场。那时候我开始比较，比较深入的着手做这个东西。然后，对，就这 样。 李：这个作品还是比较注重社会性? 邱：对。受这个社会刺激本身影响蛮大的。当然，另一方面，我自己，那个时候，我自己在96年以 后，96年前后就开始一直在做这种录像艺术的“传教士”。然后我自己知道这个新媒体的发展，我也 比较了解国际上的这种发展。那国内做互动多媒体的其实只有冯梦波，当时。但冯梦波换汤不换药， 他用最好的软件，做最老的那种，做那个政治波普的画面上的那种。然后我自己从媒体的角度，我有 点这样的考虑：怎么用一个最普通的软件，最傻的软件，像微软的办公软件PowerPoint，来做一个比 较新的内容。但是当时在99年的创作／技术条件很难，我还用拨号上网，所以就没有条件去把它发展 成一个网络作品。所以最后它就是以“CD-ROM”的形式为人所知。我甚至一直到现在都没有真正解决 那个“打包”的问题。（笑） 李：我有你那个作品《西方》的文件，很多链接都有问题。 邱：对，各种链接经常出问题，每到一台新电脑，我要重新连一下。老会出现这个问题，那就是因 为“打包”的问题没解决好。 李：你希望这个作品的最终形态应该是什么样的？ 邱：我觉得它的理想形态实际上应该是变成一个论坛，变成一个网站。然后各种各样的人的意见可以 加进来。这样的话可能就不是某个人的作品了。其实，做这样的工作可以满足我另外一方面的关怀 吧。 当然，我有时候做艺术，做那种以想象力为主的那种工作。那么这种是另一个方面，满足现实关怀的 层面，好像两种东西它互相构成一种张力。我觉得一个人如果光做这种怪怪的，装神弄鬼的东西，他 慢慢没有现实关怀，他也没有力量，纯粹的想象也没有力量。 相反，纯粹的现实不做任何加工的，经常可以很有力量。但是呢，这个力量也过得快，它不是一种高 度，不是一种超出人的经验的东西。这样做跟记者就没什么两样了。如果那样的话，就应该去电视 台，打擦边球，争取播出，去媒体工作，不断地触碰新闻检查的底线，这最能满足自己的道德需要。 我做这样的东西是一直在左右为难的。我会被两种吸力吸着走，有时候会去做好玩的东西，有时候会 去采集，去做一个汇集的东西。 关于《西方》我觉得一个比较理想的形态应该是论坛，应该是有更强的互动性。现在是等于是，我提 供的一些可选的路径，有一定的可选性，简单的互动性。这样有一个好处，其实就是我在采集的时

候，我进行了编辑。我可以重点的强调某一类现象。 李：你想强调什么现象呢？你当时的目的还是有的吧。 邱：有的。一个是人们在进行这个意识形态表达的时候的那种离奇性，那种偏择性。然后，我们中国 的艺术界也经常会谈起“西方”这个概念。学术界也经常会谈起“西方”这个概念。在西方，人们会 经常谈论“东方”的概念，“后殖民主义理论”1、“东方主义”2这样的书出来。基本上，已经成为 老生常谈：就是人们在批判殖民史的时候，总会说，“东方”是一个构造出来的对象，“东方”是 西方人对东方的误读，“东方”是什么什么。 反过来，其实也一样。我们也构造了一个“西方”， 这个“西方”在不同的历史阶段扮演了完全不同的东西。可能在有一些时候是“入侵者”，有些时 候是“亚非拉人们共同的敌人”，是“帝国主义”，甚至有时候就是特指美国，英国。有些时候它 是“改革开放的对象”，有些时候是“战略合作伙伴”，有些时候是“妖魔”，有些时候是“民主的 天使”， 是“德先生”和“赛先生”……3 就是它在不同的时候它在不断的变形，这些变形其实都跟我们自己的欲望有关。而且，在我们各种人 身上也对它完全有着各种不同的理解。一个是在这种理解的差异性在时间中存在，也在不同的人群身 上存在，甚至在同一个人的同一个时间的不同状态里存在。同一阶段，当面对不同的事物，就拿出不 同的信息。所以我想这样的工作得很重要的一部分目的就是，一个要促成我们的自我理解，一个当《 西方》在国外展出的时候，它也促成西方人的自我理解。它是双向的一个工作。其实，主要的焦点应 该在于人们是如何把自己的欲望，自己的偏见，带进对他的课题的一个描述里面，显出人们的这些认 识是多么的带有偏差的，是多么的偏执。而且这种偏执有时候可以离奇到何等接近艺术品的程度。 李：有些学者好像还是在故意的吧，为“西方”下一个定义。你对这个又是怎么看的呢？ 在史料上好 像有一个明显的界限。 邱：人们在不同的场合，特别在研讨会上，动不动就“西方”。譬如说，画水墨画的人来到我们这 里，然后就会说，你们这些都是西方式的。其实，我们在讲“东方”、“西方”，很多研讨会上为 这样的概念争执不休的时候，我们都落入一个圈套。当我们这么说的时候，好像世界上就只有“西 方”和“东方”，我们忘了阿拉伯在哪里？非洲在哪里？拉丁美洲算“西方”还是“东方”？所以， 我其实，后来《西方》这个CD-ROM作品，更像我的笔记本，我在不同的场合可以把它其中的某一项给 发展成一个装置，或者是一个行为。有时候我会链接进这个作品，有的就没有。后来有一段时间没有 去更新它。 比如在我们以前做过一次建筑展，在中国美术馆。我做过一个录像装置，是叫做《来自西方的雕 塑——极乐世界》。就是现成的罗马柱， 建材市场上买来的，上面用荧光颜料写着《阿弥陀经》4， 关于极乐世界的描述的佛教经文。 正常灯光下字看不见，就是罗马柱。字看得见的时候，那个《阿弥 陀经》的文字显出来，那个柱子就看不清楚。然后有一个有可在圆明园废墟前留影的录像。就是从圆 明园开始对“西方”的一个想象。这就是从《西方》这本笔记本中拿出来变成一个装置的例子。 再比如说在杭州的另外一个展览，我拿了很多世界地图，让观众把他们认为不是“西方”的国家涂 掉，结果就非常有趣，结果有的人把日本留着，有的人把日本涂掉。最后就得到很多张“西方”的地 图，这个“西方的地图”呈现了不同的关于西方的地理想相。“西方”会变成一些小岛，因为他们 用海洋的颜色去把中国涂掉。中国，印度基本上肯定会被涂掉，有的人会把俄罗斯留着，也算“西 方”，有的人会把俄罗斯的欧洲部分涂掉， 有的人甚至会涂的只剩美国。 我大概让人涂了上百张这样的地图。所以像这种一个行为，一个观众参与的一个事件，其实都是跟《 西方》这个CD-Rom作品链接在一起的，它成为我某一类作品，那些社会调查类的，文化研究类的，社 会学类的，成为这一类作品的一个枢纽。 李：你觉得刚才说的这个被涂掉的是一个“后殖民”的问题么？我说现在讨论的东西方是一个后殖民 的问题么？ 邱：我想因为中国不存在“后殖民”， 因为中国没有殖民史。 李：我是说世界历史上的“后殖民”问题。 邱：对。所以中国不存在这么一个问题。那么，本来我们中国人只有“天下”的概念，没有“国 际”这个概念。“西方”，“东方”这些词都是一些国际的概念。那么，中国人以前是不分这个的，

是讲“天下”。所以，“西方”作为一个概念指向某些个具体的国家或者文明，这并不是中国本来的 想法。当然，中国的传统里面也有 “南蛮北胡东夷西狄”这种观念。那时候文化落差很大，周围这 些文明跟我们中土的文明完全没有可比性，就是相比差太远了。方位的概念不足于成为文化比较的参 数，也不会导致什么文化的误读。我们的典籍中最早的西方人大概是西王母，可能是一个昆仑山区的 友好的母系氏族部落。 当中国和印度文明相遇的时候就开始有这个明确的“西方”概念。这时“西方”是指印度，“西方极 乐世界”。传说中老子骑青牛去了西方，出了函谷关去了“西方”，后来就有人说，去胡王那里教胡 王，那里人就管他叫“释迦摩尼”，有一本伪经《老子化胡经》5就讲这个的。我的作品里面有这个内 容。那就是佛教传入和儒家传统发生文化冲突的结果。那么今天的这个对“西方”的理解呢，是个混 杂现象，或者“西方”能够成为一个话题，确实是跟殖民侵略有关，跟殖民史有关。如果我们已经赋 予这个殖民史以完全不同的理解，如果今天不同的人在我们这个文化里面对殖民史也有一个完全不同 的解读，那么如果这种现状确实是跟殖民时代有所不同，那我们也不妨称之为“后殖民”。可是我觉 得即使在殖民时代，在老殖民主义那里，也依然是有各种各样的理解的，有“买办”，也有“三元里 抗英”，也有“义和团”，它无非就是在“买办”和“义和团”这两极之间存在着很多不同的理解。 其实这个情况是一直延续下来的，是殖民主义阶段的后续。所以说是“后殖民” ，不是很妥。因为 我们没有经过殖民史，“后殖民”其实是一个典型的中东地区的概念，这个是阿拉伯学者提出来的问 题，后来又有南亚的学者加以补充完整，带进一些南亚的经验的，在中国其实不存在这个话题。当然 有类似的话题，但是其实还是不一样的。 李：因为我提出来还是因为刚才你说那个地图的问题。就是说大家对“西方”的这个认识，也可能还 是没有经历过这个“殖民”，没有经历过这个“殖民”的时代。然后对“殖民”也是想象式的，所以 对，包括你刚才说的，对日本的这个问题，有是“西方”又不是“西方”的理解等等，我觉得你在那 个作品里做过的这样的区分吗？比如说，什么样时代的“西方”是什么样子。我们对“西方”的几个 重要的区域的，地源上的划分是怎么样的。 邱：做过这样的区分，那个作品其实，就目前的状态来说，还是一个树状的结构。然后主页进去以 后它会有“什么是西方”“西方在哪里”“好的西方”“坏的西方”的分类。那么，在“西方在哪 里”或者是“什么是西方”，它有类型上的区分。比如“西方”我们谈论它，“坏的”方面的印象， 是暴力的，是贪婪的。好的“西方”，是富裕的，是民主的，是科学的。在概念上进行一个分组，当 我们想起“西方”这个概念的时候会联想到哪一些词汇？那么在阶段的区分，也有不同时段的区分， 比如说从佛教时代到基督教进入，利马窦那个时代，到义和团的时代，再到中国开始修铁路的时代。 到50年代，人人都要学跳苏联舞，都要起一个苏联名字。到70，80年代，作品中舒可文谈到她当时买 条牛仔裤，家里就不得了了，就以为学坏了。而当时她就是做梦都想要有一条牛仔裤的那种时代。还 有到现在玩滑板，染头发的这些孩子，也有一个时间上的一个铺陈。 其实当时的那个状态就是满足我的纪录片冲动。当时的那个状态就是我想要做一种知识分子的纪录 片，就是观察性的，然后是笔记性的，一边采集素材，夹叙夹议的一种纪录片，然后就形成这样一种 状态。其实那个冲动是纪录片冲动。然后，我想以我的性格我还真做不了纪录片。一旦开始，我会直 接变成参与者的，我想我要去拍民工的记录片，我会变成一个维权律师。 所以我迫使自己要保持距 离，把它变成一种比较案头的工作来做，现在《西方》所呈现的其实是我迫不得已的一个方式吧。 李：因为你用的是那个PowerPoint这个办公软件。你觉得这种多线性的这种模式为你的作品带来了什 么？ 邱：首先就是因为在非线形的方式中，因为你逃避去安排这个时间秩序，这其实是一个责任感的退 出，就是免除编辑。其实你是把这个责任推给观众了，把作者的暴力去掉了。在一定程度上，你不是 安排观众， 要先听完这种说法，再去听那种说法。或者先听完反面的说法，再去听正面的说法，可能 结论是完全不一样的。《西方》将这种关系并置，其实说明我自己是不肯定的。一方面我免除马上去 下判断，能够保持一个更加中性观察的心态。Powerpoint实现的互动性是相当有限的，但是对我来说 依然比一个线性的、排列的、表述好，它不那么强势。第二个就是说作品允许不断的扩充，这个媒体 技术修改起来非常方便，我一有什么新的材料，新的观察，就又往里加，这个文件就越来越大……当 时甚至于还没有DVD，没有DVD刻录，那么我就开始担心我的这个文件超出一张光盘的容量以后怎么 办？是不是要整个硬盘拿去参展？当时产生过这样的考虑。这是第二点，就是这个媒体技术本身带来 的。第三个就是这个文字和图的这种配合比起纪录片的加字幕是完全不一样的东西，那些文字本身不 是一晃而过的，可以慢慢思考的。。当时我作品PowerPoint功能唯一没有发挥出来的主要是声音。

我那里面很大量的用录像，当时没想到PowerPoint能放录像。录像部分我觉得是做得比较好，但是声 音是我做的比较差的部分。就是我根本就是放弃了控制声音。当然跟我自己的整个的这个作品有关， 我并没有很强烈的情感的趋向。所以，《西方》就是更像一个论坛。但作为论坛，以CD-ROM的形式、 采集的量势必是不够的，作品必须进化成网络的开放式采集。所以这也是有时代局限性的，如果我今 天能够重新来做这个，当然会继续再做，因为我现在有一个网站，有非常大的空间。我当然会把《西 方》变成一个网络项目的。 李： 已经有差不多8年了，为什么没有把它变成网络项目？ 邱：从第一次在伦敦ICA展出已经过去8年了，前面3年在做，后面5年其实没有怎么再去更新。虽然其 实对这个问题的了解其实也是一直在深入，要说起来，《亚洲时间》6的这个项目其实跟它是直接有 关的。这是我的社会人类学的关怀，社会学的关怀的满足，跟这个《西方》这个东西一样。从96年我 拍的那个《乒乓》那个录像，到99年这个《西方》，到后来拍这么大的这个《亚洲时间》的这个录像 都是直接一条线下来的，包括我现在的工作，可能这一类的工作很大程度上被我的教学所取代。就是 我把它变成一些教学项目在做。或者比如我给《SOHO小报》编的那个《基层文本》专栏，然后那个我 带着学生去做的西藏题材绘画调查。其实西藏调查也跟《西方》这个概念有关。就是其中的“香格里 拉想象”，除了西方人对西藏的想象，中国人也一样有香格里拉想象，这是同一种东西。西方人对中 国人也有香格里拉想象，我们中国人也和所谓的西方人欧美人一起对西藏有一个香格里拉想象。我们 对欧美的人也有香格里拉想象。这个调查和《西方》一样其实是关于这种想象的一个解构吧。因为每 个人的这种想象都是这样的：他在这里面过得久了，跟这个观念一起生活得太久，它就开始变得确定 无疑。那么，当他遭遇到很不同的说法的时候，他能够产生一个反思的可能，也会感慨万千，会感慨 人性，人的感受，感性和经验的多样性。我想只要不是特别霸道的人，他不会立刻就说“完全胡说八 道”。 如果那个人是很真实的呈现出有很多经验，他会去想一想什么理由使这个人这么说。所以，可 能一部分的这方面的欲望就被新的工作比如说教学取代了。比如说做亚洲这个录像一做就是两三年这 样下去了，两年时间吧。而且主要拍摄时间花了两年。剪辑就一直在做。那个教学的工作也已经三年 了。所以，事实上差不多就是从99年做到03年左右。就是这样，2003年到我去中国美院教书。2002年 我就开始拍《亚洲》的纪录片了，到我去美院教书以后很多这方面的热情，比如教学生做社会调查， 什么做《中山公园调查》，被这样的具体工作替代了。 而且我想把它放在网上，它其实就会自己长， 当然也可能会长出很不靠谱的东西，导致整个网站被封掉了，也有可能。 李：但是你刚才说的，也就是说这个作品是你把这个权力还给参与者吧，大家来构建一个由不同线索 引导的不同的信息调用。为什么你后来这样的作品只做了一个呢？你后来的项目就没有再继续这样类 型的作品？或者这种方式对你来说有什么不妥？ 邱：我也不知道是为什么后来没再做。当然一直因为这个作品我一直告诉自己它是没做完的，它是可 以一直再做的。所以没有去做别的作品，这是一部分的原因。 其实。我后来在四合院做那个社会肖 像，那个展览也都是罗马柱，也都是狮子，其实都是链接在这个作品上面的。这个作品其实像一个记 事本一样，那样的话不加判断。就是一个平面的，一堆照片登出来。所以可能可以视为那一类的作品 可以是呈现出这种冲动，很质朴的就去呈现这个事件就可以了。我就等于把本来是想夹叙夹议，却把 这个议论的部分都去掉了。然后，我那时候是非常反艺术的，其实我当时拍那写黑板报的照片之类， 很大程度上因为国内观念摄影开始流行，导致我的反感。当时，93年94年的时候我在杭州开始用照片 做媒体来工作，是因为没有地方展装置，没有地方做行为，只好用照片。那时候根本不知道什么Cindy Sherman，什么杰夫瓦尔，就因为没办法，胡搞出来的。那些什么像卖的很好的《纹身-不》的照片什 么的都是94年在杭州拍的。那个时候是不得已用摄影，根本不知道摄影这个事情到底怎么回事。到了 99年左右，对，其实是99年以后，摄影就成了时尚。大家都去摆拍。摆拍一下，再Photoshop弄一下， 这种现象让我很反感。 我就变得特别反艺术潮流，觉得那个就像记者那样拍照。 能够扎扎实实的做 一个社会的观察者，也挺好的。因为很多人在向社会提供自己的巧思，然后进行自己的评论。其实这 个“思”并不“巧”,观察得其实很肤浅。还不如一个如实的观看，一个静静的真正有角度的观看，来 得有价值。起码有文献价值，我不知道有没有艺术价值，可能没有吧。因为我当时就是反艺术，就是 烦艺术。但是起码它更真实。 李：就是对你来说更真实？ 邱：在当时是有那么一个阶段这样认为。

李：你这个作品给我的感觉跟你后来做《后感性》系列好像有一些联系。但是我又说不太清楚。 邱：其实是同时的。因为《后感性》7也是这个阶段。因为《后感性》一直到05年，这些人改名为《联 合现场》之后，后来有没有结束也不知道。大家不用这个名字了。那么可以说《后感性》是随着大家 各自羽翼丰满，也各有各自的方向了。《后感性》是一个阶梯，有很多人现在有实力去做自己想做的 事情。但是应该说当时他们做的也是当时他们想做的，现在他们想做一些别的事情了。那主要的《后 感性》的阶段也是99年到03，04年之间。就是最集中做事情的一个阶段，大家一起紧张工作的阶段。 那么这个部分呢，你看《西方》是一个特别社会关怀的部分。《后感性》在外人眼里常被误解为一个 特别反社会的倾向。特别个人、特别极端、特别惊世骇俗、特别古怪的一个形象。表面上看来好像是 那个非常背道而驰，而且其实我个人的摄影方面的工作当时非常的接近纪录片。我是第一次听到有人 说，有人这么说它们之间有联系。我倒想听听你对这个事情的理解。 李：我觉得就是多线索吧。都是多线索，都不可控。这个是我的感觉。 邱：就像《后感性》是来自我对观念艺术的那种反感。就是对观念的明确的反感。其实当时我也想过 这样的作品如何变成装置。真的动脑子想过，还找过做自动控制的人谈过有没有可能。这个投影打在 地上，然后你走到那个地方，就等于你点击了某个按钮。其实都是有可能的，很麻烦而已。当时还真 的想过，所以，如果它变成那样一个东西，它就会更加变成身体的感受。你说的这一点是对的。就是 这种不可控，因当时的后感性是强调一个身体的现场，而这是一个观念的现场。其实我们那个现场艺 术，来自反对明确的标准观念艺术，然后在01年转向反对僵化的展览制度，然后出现剧场化的倾向。 随之有反对个人，建立一些限制个人的游戏规则来玩，也是为了强化那种戏剧性，这就是我们所说的 现场感----它是很合成的，它是不可预料的。后来大家走到《联合现场》，我觉得《联合现场》有问 题就在于这一点，就是它一直没有在一个很深的理论的基础上，其实是一个友情聚合。而且这个东西 最后做下去由于各自有各自的问题，各自有各自的目的，那么仅靠一两条规则，串在一起它起不到一 个控制力，它控制不了。所以《联合现场》的犯规就比《后感性》严重很多。到了广州双年展，《联 合现场》就死了。因为个个都犯规。我不知道石青有没有犯规，反正刘鼎是犯规的，张慧就不去做。 我觉得只有我没犯规。因为我还在严格按照我们当时一起商量的“八小时，有时间单位，在这个时间 单位内完成的一个东西”工作。我没犯规，却是在现场之外做的。等于是为自己做的一件事情。那 个作品就等于是没展出。因此在那之后我就在想“现场”这个问题。它必须变成历史的“现场”。必 须不光在身体的层面上工作，必须在意识形态的层面上工作。如果它变成历史现场，它就会跟像《西 方》这样的东西又合流了。 《西方》这个作品还差点延伸出另外一个东西。《西方》这个作品第一次是在凯伦Karen Smith跟吴美 纯策划的《北京在伦敦》的伦敦的ICA展出。那是第一次在国外展出。后来在纽约我的个展上面展出 过。后来在那个圣保罗双年展展出过。但是，最有意思的是我带着它去参加了那个艾柯的人类学的研 讨会，意大利的符号学家昂贝多·艾柯（Umberto Eco），他主持召开了一次跨文化的研讨会， 主要 是做人类学的学者在意大利的一次研讨会。 当时我和哲学家赵汀阳、人类学家王明明，我们三个人号 称成立一个小组，叫“理念与妄想”。然后，我们想要拍一个试验纪录片。当时向欧盟申请钱，叫《 新西游记》。 那个就是《西方》的一个行动版吧。我们三个人，我装孙悟空，王明明装猪八戒，赵汀 阳装那个沙和尚，然后我们三个人会带着一口箱子在欧洲旅行。那口箱子的名字叫“唐僧”。然后我 们一直在兜售箱子里面的东西。同时一直在买东西，采集东西往箱子里面放。那当时还有一些环节， 包括请专业的调查公司调查对中国影响最大的那些概念。影响最大的十个概念，十个人什么的。这些 都可以直接放进《西方》这个作品里面。其实后来的这些发展变成这一类的想象，如果那样去做，比 如我就真请调查公司，或者真在网站上发布这样的东西的话，那就是我想说的这种历史的现场。后来 这是一个未遂方案，后来是法国政府愿意给钱，但是要求我们只能在法国选十个城市。我们当时在欧 洲选了十个城市，对应西游记里面的地点。比如奥斯威辛就是白骨洞；然后那个曼彻斯特，工业革命 的纺织工业的起源就叫盘丝洞；然后那个阿姆斯特丹是叫女儿国；弗洛伦萨，文艺复兴之地，叫朱紫 国；然后最后那个灵山是雅典。最后到希腊去，找到雅典。结果欧盟不肯出钱，法国政府愿意出钱， 那他要求我们在法国选十个城市，把这事做了。我们很不爽，就不干了。 然后这个计划就搁浅了。 我们当时也设计了很多现场艺术。就是很接近于《后感性》的那种东西。比如说，王明明要化装成乞 丐，直接上门乞讨，说“我是一个中国人，我身上的钱全部被偷光了，护照也被偷了，我没吃的。给 我钱！给我吃的！”上门乞讨，然后偷拍。有一些很接近于艺术的，就是我们那个《联合现场》《后 感性》这些做的作品，很接近这些东西。包括要在法国的唐人街点菜，要吃狗肉。什么诸如此类的一 些像作品一样的，比较猛的一些做法。我们把这个当作实验人类学的一种方式方法来做。所以你这么

一说，两者确实是连在一起的。 李：就是看起来有很多小的意思，实际上，整体来说还是一个大的，一个不是那么明确的一个意识的 一个形体，是么？ 邱：对。 李：这个作品对我的那个《中国媒体艺术自1989》研究是非常重要的。因为可以说是在评述 89年“墙”的问题，冷战结束一系列这些问题之后，“东方”“西方”这个问题变得很热。很多学 者，各种各样的学者，艺术家在讨论这个问题。 我觉得是东西方问题的收山之作。 邱：其实我后来之所以没有继续去发展这个CD-ROM。我倒是有一个想法。你看我的这里面还有，我的 电脑里面有一个书的方案。我已经出过，这几本都是已经出过的书了。然后，这是我的创作谈，还有 什么策展人访谈。我写的关于艺术家的文章。其中有一本书的计划叫《西方》。然后我包括书的提纲 都有。就这本书要做成什么样子的。然后有包括选择填空，是一本互动的书。当时想法还变成这样 子，还包括那个字典“洋”“西”“外”的这些解释，传教士建筑和中国教堂。然后，各种课程。我 已经在着手搜集图片已经在做这个书。可能是后来停下来没做，倒是有一定程度上把它变成一本书的 计划的原因，因为它本身是一种写作，互动式的写作。实际上我们应该有一个，就是一个论坛，也得 有一个印刷的，一个期刊。或者有一本书最后来规整，能够成为引起反思的一个东西。 李：但是因为我刚才没有说完我那句话，我说2000年以后，好像全球化的这个问题变得特别热。那你 觉得再谈“西方”还有没有价值？或者说现在再考虑这个问题，隔着8年了再考虑这个问题它的价值在 哪？ 邱：我觉得这个问题没有过去。只是我们需要去深化它，需要去细化它。其实可以说《亚洲》时间这 个系列是对《西方》的一个深化，因为我在亚洲这个系列里面谈时间，这时候其实基督教的那个历 法，也就是我们今天所说的“公历”它就扮演了我们通常意义上的“西方”所扮演的这个角色。在《 西方》这个互动作品里呈现的是比较抽象的整体概念。这个概念掩盖了丰富的事实。那么，比如说亚 洲这样的录像就一定程度上在展现不同的人们是怎么理解它的。我自己在做的工作，其实也一直有一 个把欧美的文明当作参照系，有一个对我们自己文化的一个自我解释的责任。就是另一方面我们把自 己解释清楚，也是非常重要的工作。那我做的书法，做光写字的照片其实都和我们的自我解释、自我 理解有关。把我们自己阐释成什么样，因为我们对“西方”的误读和想象，也反过来构造了我们对 自己的误读和想象。那么，我们相应的把西方阐释成科学、民主、船尖炮利，或把自己阐释成东方 神秘、然后就周易八卦、风水、太极。所以这个是同时在做的工作，怎么去理解，我们自己成为什么 样子。它是同步的一个过程。“全球化”这个词，也同样非常粗暴。是什么东西的全球化？政治的全 球化还是经济的全球化？也跟“西方”这样的词一样，必须在具体的事实里面来讨论，比如说历法。 它同样意味着对不同的人意味着不同的东西。也是必须在不同的语境里面被不断的重构。所以，当然 也可以做一个关于“全球化”的一个作品。其实“西方”这个作品我觉得依然是有效的，我只需要花 几天的时间就可以把它搬到网上，变成一个网络论坛。我觉得依然是有效的，在今天这个话题也依然 没有过时。你看我那个博客，我的博客访问量很大，一天1000多个人现在。可是回复留言的并不那么 多。可是我关于美国签证的那篇一出来就是，一下子就4个留言就出来了。大家对这个问题还是很敏 感，还是不断的会去讨论，因为现实其实没有过去。 李：就是说，你认为是想象没有过去，还是实际上，碰到一些实际的事物的时候大家很容易作出这样 的反应？ 邱：这个全球化并没有真的发生。我们去美国还是很难签证。所以，这样的问题当然依然还存在。而 且大家圣诞节在越过越火的时候，它当然依然存在这个问题。 李：所以“西方”的意识可不可以被减缩成为，比如说一种暴力意识的替代品？ 邱：对有些人是这样的，对有些人不是这样的。比如说，当上海市政府想把那个外滩的建筑拿去申报 世界遗产的时候，他们肯定不是这么想的。他们就真的觉得很骄傲，因为有这个历史。

李：但是刚才说的外滩这个建筑问题，外滩建筑它本身也算是一部分殖民留下来的东西吗？ 邱：对，就是它把这个殖民史认同为自身的历史，甚是是历史里面的骄傲的一部分。这确实是心态的 一个变化。 李：但是在中国历史里也是一直有这个问题啊？比如说像那个蒙元时代，大家还是认为就是在历史 里，还是有点不正确把它写到中国的历史，好像有一点这种意识在里面。还不会那么公正的看待历 史。 邱：异族入主中原，历史上无数次发生。发生的结果一定是两个。一个是血统的融合，所谓的五胡乱 华。血缘融合之后，而且中国人本身不是很重血缘。我们的诗圣李白都可以是碎叶人。中国人就不太 重血缘，我们的中华民族的“华”字是和“化”字是同一个字。我们是以教化来分的，所以基本上这 些异族去拜孔子，他就被认为正统。所以因为蒙古也是因为去拜了孔子，所以就成正统了。就被承认 为正统的一个王朝。不拜孔子的就成不了正统。清朝人拜了孔子，也就成了自己人。也成了我朝皇 清。否则永远是要被赶走的。 李：如果这么说的话，如果哪天西方人都拜孔子了，那历史也就…… 邱：也就是自己人了。是吧！到现在的其实这个“东方”“西方”，用国族的层面来说，当然就是比 较浅。因为中国人本身就不谈国家这个概念。那从文化的概念，确实从文化是比较简单的分化。而且 宗教的分化确实也是比较有效。就是虽然儒家不是宗教，但是现在很明显基督教，伊斯兰教。就是因 为宗教引起的文化冲突。从宗教放大到文化的一种对立。现在这个问题当然依然非常强烈。可能甚至 于比99年还要强烈。对我们来说可能没有那么强烈。对中东的人来说，那就太明显了。911以后就太明 显了。所以其实911我也有《世贸天葬台》那个作品，其实都是可以算是链接在这个作品里面的一种 东西。就是它基本上的功能就是在我的创作里面，在我的创作里面一直有几种东西是扮演笔记本的东 西。它可以拿出这一部分去对付这个展览，对付这个事情。那么《西方》是其中的一个东西。关于书 法的，可能是另外一个东西。 李：我觉得还不完全是，从我的角度看《西方》是我觉得是你所有作品里最有意思的一个。但是我说 它是最好可能跟你说它最不是被你控制的一个，最反映真实的一个，可能最有关系。然后也跟它这种 完全的就是由互动产生的各种各样的线索，跟观众构成各种各样的联系，这是它最有趣的。而另外一 个有趣的是在于使用了最简单的软件达到了互动。其实互动是什么呢？我觉得在这个作品中一下就被 解释得很清楚了。就是你互动可以变得很简单。然后这就降低了一个门槛，就是说别人怎么样跟你作 这个信息上的交流和比对。我觉得它达到了一个最简单的交流方式。 邱：其实我们现在来看的网上的互动作品是非常少的。其实互动的作品奇少无比，大多数只是让你可 以点击而已，关键是， 我那个《西方》其实也不完全是树根结构。 进入不是一定要回来的。那个树 后来长成一个网。有点像这种感觉的。不见得一定要回到那个发芽的那个地方去。我想这一点可能很 关键。就是它能够变成一个世界，一个跟这个世界平行的东西。人可以进去。只是它现在内容和角度 还不够，放到网上去这个问题就解决了。

Living Elsewhere Interviewer: Li Zhenhua Interviewee: Wang Jianwei Li: The “unlimited judgment” that you are referencing is which sort of unlimited judgment?

Wang: Not passing judgment at all. Currently contemporary culture was basically not appreciated; moreover, there is a large subtext behind this kind of unlimited appreciation.

Even before it was appreciated I thought this kind of appreciation was meaningless. The meaninglessness was twofold––firstly it was bringing a kind of profit, secondly there is nothing inside. Those two states are the new shape of the blend of capitalism and postcommunism. This is the new theme that I am currently researching.

Li: I recently saw two films, “Babel” and “Blood Diamond.” Later on I felt that these two films really got to the root of reality, even capitalists are discussing these kinds of problems.

I’ve only see one film in the series “Living Elsewhere.” Your work “Everyday Architecture” and other films also touch upon a myriad of problems; can you talk a little bit about how you choose the issues that will form the core of your research?

Wang: Actually, seeing that film today, exactly ten years have passed. “Living Elsewhere” was just one work among them, and some of the issues touched upon in “Everyday Architecture” have still not changed. At the time, my overall feeling was that I had many ideas.

The first was, at that time in contemporary art we were all drunk on the idea of certain Western traditional styles. For example, the point of installation art was to materialize something; video was in the style of Viola Gavi Hode. Also, I think during that period Chinese society was changing so fast that art works, including the so-called sociological, where were they hiding? In actuality, that was my reason for ten years of my work.

At the time I was reading many books like: Michel Foucault, Pierre Bourdieu, etc. and was beginning to get a complete grasp on the relationship between objects, and see if it was possible to start work in a complete and relative environment. I think that the work “Produce” at the time was the beginning of this, then you will feel that the scope is much broader, your objective of research is the city, but then in the investigative process you realize that the traditional city you thought was there doesn’t exist.

I want to destroy the traditional definitions and concepts of the city, through written and field investigations, asking: what kind of relationship does a methodological approach to the city and the existence of art have? “Everyday Architecture” was actually also produced in this kind of environment, it has ten large portions; at the time I also wrote an article describing this point. If we believe that architecture and a city are produced on a socialized platform, then any form of simple reduction could possibly transform into various visible manifestations provided by social relationships. My interest is in seeing if I can find a more comprehensive way to understand the city, simply stated, isn’t it like paying attention to what the city is like? And “why” is it like that, this is also a portion that the city and the architecture cannot see. At the time the work was produced with that background, and I also think that in ten years, I believe art, especially contemporary art actually has still not deeply crossed the threshold or become involved in the entire process of socialization. First of all the ‘problem’ is still produced at the heart of art, of course I still believe that I am in the process, ten years, there is absolutely no time for

retrospection, I still feel there are so many things that haven’t even been started. For example, I wanted to start a new work this year called “Contagion Intersection,” perhaps it is generally the same thought pattern as that ten-year foundation.

Li: I think you are an interesting individual case: a social responsible artist who is uniquely concerned with his social environment. Maybe I’m being too simple, but you are an artist who has a few characteristics of the intellectual. I think this is relatively obvious on your person, but, to speak concretely on the ‘intellectual’ problem, I’ve also sought for many explanations, and it seems there are many. There is one that I think might be more closely related: “Being an intellectual, the first thing you must have knowledge of is yourself,” and then maintain a relatively cool attitude when examining society, observing the origins and results of situations, then going on to formulate questions.

Wang: We can’t always talk in big concepts, such as this or that social phenomenon. I think that the artist’s interest in society in itself is not a problem. If you look at it from a historical perspective, Chinese artists pay similar attention to societal problems, what I am focusing attention on is, how do you pay attention to society, what kind of world view do you use to observe it? We can’t forever be making Qing and Ming Dynasty style paintings. Actually, we have used neither artistic methods nor intellectual methods to examine society, this is a problem that we have been avoiding for a long time, using social problems to avoid knowledge and culture, what kind of problems will this engender?

Once we say ‘concern for society’ everything becomes immediately sentimental, as if that is the only way we can appreciate society. But you discover over one hundred years, the way we observe society marks the time, the basic complexity is veiled over and in the end becomes a sort of symbol that spreads to drama, novels, and literature. So I believe, the attitude you employ in your concern for society is even more important, moreover if you are an artist, they method you use to express your concern will become your artistic method. I don’t think that merely having this concern is enough, if you don’t back it up with practice then its possible it will just look like opportunism. Because when an artist says they are concerned for society, he is just borrowing it as his background; sometimes society can provide us with an exceptionally large reason, truthfully it is just to make people ‘shut up’ and sometimes it is an opportunity. You can often find a drama or a novel that was sloppily written, but the author will write pages and pages on how he is concerned with society, I don’t believe that game is worthy of participation. Add to that the fact that China lacks a normal critical mechanism, there is no public criticism or third person style of language, so take the artist and society and make it an artwork, from it you can derive some sort of criticism. But we can only discuss these problems after we’ve had our fill of food and drink, or in the end it becomes a kind of socialized news, and then we use entertaining methods to report on it.

The second problem is that of knowledge, as you mentioned, stated simply its one’s worldview and how one looks at issues and what kind of power that has given you; it is not how many books you have read that determine your ‘intellectual’ status. I think that as for our universities, they must have an understanding of critical knowledge, as for our intellectuals––they must be able to use critical thinking. That kind of critical attitude ensures that you must always maintain a distance from the mainstream; you never want to let yourself become ‘very useful.’ From a sociological perspective, ‘very useful’ implies you have managed to have a tacit understanding with some kind of profit mechanism, just like you see our architecture, including how we critique images, and wonder why it is so weak. Actually, it has become extremely useful, for me a useful thing these days is a new kind of ideology, proactively managing to share in commercial profits.

Li: We were just talking about the concern of the artist for society. Most people can de-

fine it. I think this is a dangerous thing, perhaps many people think it’s a very simple thing to define something. Do you think this is a problem? Especially because you are making art… now its making doctrine. To give an example, many universities are giving definition to “new media.” I think this is hard to understand, how are they able to do that?

Wang: That is Chinese tradition, that tradition is the hope that one can use the simplest method to understand the world. At the same time this brings about why we didn’t learn about the complete foundations of abstract art, let alone to say contemporary art. Our basic education and our cultural education basically took anything classified as ‘uncertain’ and removed it, we have no way to construct and use ‘uncertain’ experiences or understanding, and this is precisely the most important knowledge of contemporary art. How do we negate the ‘uncertain?’ Commercial interests are against the ‘uncertain,’ the government is against the ‘uncertain,’ thus showing that these two entities are actually in cahoots, the both require certainty; but to culture this is lethal, and that is also to say that we use this attitude to approach all objects and events. For example, in art criticism the most often used approach is “I don’t understand,” which is to say you must find certainty, but I think in this world, from the approach of a multivariable mechanism we should permit ‘uncertain’ things to exist, and we should also permit people to embrace ‘uncertain’ knowledge.

It’s too early to even begin talking about how people will use this kind of knowledge and experience, what we need to talk about is the ‘legality’ of utilizing this uncertain’ knowledge. We have talked about artists for a long time, pausing on the opposition of ‘artist’ and ‘public,’ but we don’t discuss whether or not there is a ‘public.’ I always refute the word ‘public’ because the word itself is flashy and unsubstantial; it was created, like the word ‘citizen.’ What do you think, are the two of us sitting here doing an interview the ‘public?’ If we say no, what is that based on? According to what standards and quantifications are you asserting that we are not the ‘public,’ aren’t ‘citizens’? If we ‘are’ then the problem is more closely related, then ‘we are citizens’ and ‘I make art’ then that resulting art is ‘art for the citizens.’ We can’t tackle the problem of understanding this problem even with basic logic. What ‘public’? What ‘citizen’? I think these words have caused a great amount of disorder, they made the question much broader, within this generality there is no need for more knowledge to clear up the problem. It looks very complicated, but actually in the end it is very simple.

Li: Superficially.

Wang: Looking back it is just like you just said; it becomes that no one can first define anything, but then within limited boundaries makes a verdict. But the problem is still very complicated; after making a definition, all the reading just stops there. I will continue to advocate uncertainty in my work. I think that it is a new language system; that is what I’m interested in. Without it there would be no discussion of experimental art, of course I also think that art should permit the non-experimental, but I’m personally interested in it.

Li: We were just talking about the problem of ‘language,’ what do you think that is?

Wang: In March I had a lecture at the Ullens Foundation on that subject. My topic was “Brain Design.” Nineteen years ago I read a book called “Brain Design” that inspired me a greatly. “Brain Design” implicates two methods. The first is that you completely put aside the object discussed by the system. The second is that you maintain this attitude, and from the beginning to the end maintain a kind of attitude of possibility.

Li: Maintain what kind of attitude?

Wang: That is, continuously questioning the nature of things, for example the latency of order, regulations, standards, and how to implement this in your knowledge, language, and behaviors. So, many things influence me, what that author believes are behaviors, location, language comprehensively become a new ‘field.’ I think this kind of thing is very interesting, or to say when we want to confront this problem, we must approach it from a relevant attitude, perhaps this question will produce some sort of relationship, but this relationship has many elements. You cannot only ask, “which factors?” Our previous history’s theory of the Philosophy of Materialism only stresses that you can see that portion, what you cannot see is the Philosophy of Idealism, this inertia continues on in just the same way as we still use class struggles to talk about society. What rich man, poor man? This is almost exactly the same as the attitude of ‘landlords’ ‘wealthy farmers’ and ‘poor farmers.’ The architects of today are often talking about “building homes for the poor” and occupying a vantage point besides the citizens, the interesting thing is that I’ve suddenly discovered the concept of the ‘public citizen’ is changing to indicate ‘the poor.’ Go and study this in that context, its very interesting. In addition, the reason why I want to discuss the concept of “Brain Design,” is to extricate myself from the macroscopic, the plausible, the snare that in the end can make people become ‘opportunists.’

So I’m talking about it as my personal state of mind, at the same time it is my position towards my work, you can find all these attitudes in my works.

Li: So what you are saying is the “Brain Design” we were talking about just now, was discussed in relation to a few circumstances of thought. I still want to return to when we started talking about “Living Elsewhere.” In 1997, when you started on the piece, what was your original intention?

Wang: Simply put, the first intention was that I wanted to see if I could use a new method to handle art, that method was the one I was just talking about, an attitude of approaching problems from the angle of their relationships. Whether or not that attitude is art is not of importance to me, but if you want to do that kind of work, what kind of conditions are required for it? How do you look at problems, what kind of skills are you working with, what is your position, what kind of issues are you dealing with in your position? I’m interested in these questions.

Secondly, it was changes in China’s Socialism, I think it’s already an enormous change, but I had no idea that these changes were still happening. Ten years ago I started to pay attention to the city, territory, status, the conflict and contradiction between farmer and city dweller, including all aspects of city development, the profit it brings and the relationship of people and the city. We had a concept of the city long ago, we have a concept of what art is, we have a concept of farmers, but after these concepts are automatically unraveled what will remain? But this automatic unraveling is not letting it unravel and the problem solves itself. Its like when I finished making the work “Produce,” I wanted this questioning of the essential nature to continue.

Third, it was my interest in film, but it was only the film. At the time I thought, is it true that our knowledge systems and methodology could undergo some kind of change?

How could you make a relationship between these changes and China’s plan? On that foundation it is your technique system. As a video artist, where do your works come from? How do you produce them, at the time I called it “Visual Investigation,” suggesting some kind of relationship between method and photography together, but at the same time producing a new kind of reading, many people were also suspicious. One time I read an article that said artists using the experience of technology were “mysterious,” saying that these works were a “mysterious thing.” The author believed that it was some kind of religious belief, so I think that even the most foundational concepts are lacking, you tell me, how can we discuss the possibilities of contemporary art? This is just the beginning

of initiatives.

Li: Do you feel like only “Living Elsewhere” could be edited and screened from the ten problems that you filmed at the time?

Wang: No. There is another, “The Unpredictable Space,” that is a thirty-minute work.

That plan is also very interesting: there is a real estate developer who wants to build a ‘mansion’ in the city. Through various connections he legally obtains a piece of land in Chengdu’s most famous park, and it’s located in the parks plum wood forest. He got rid of all the people in order to build his ‘mansion.’ Not long after they had broke ground on the project I went to interview him, he was describing how the landscape planning was this and that, but in the end, only three months later when I went again, the project had stopped. There were all kinds of people sitting there quietly there, but they all represented different interests. One group represented the religious, they said that below this plum wood forest there was a historic Daoist burial ground, digging was not permitted, they said it was a threat to religion. The other group was the people who come here every day to do their daily exercises, they believed this was a public park, and the project was ruining the law of the forest. The developer maintained his stance that this was a legal operation. Each group had their own point according to law, but what was the real relationship? Aside from various profit relationships, and the various elements tangled together, they produced or instigated even more complexity.

Li: Those connections are interesting.

Wang: I’m also in the process of editing the third portion, a street called “Guanyin Alley” which was once a very important alleyway in Chengdu. The government put up a notice: this alley was to be destroyed in order to connect two larger roads. When I went there, from watching the people putting up posters in protest to the road’s final destruction in, the entire process was 40 days. I was heartbroken to edit this film, even though the material is from ten years ago, to this day I still believe there are some things that need to be understood anew. I often watch that material, in the process I have edited it three times before, but the third take at editing I stopped. It was not such an easy thing as I had imagined it to be; I must go beyond the method of examining problems that I used in “Living Elsewhere” because there are so many kinds of relationships in that film. The first is the government, the sound, that sound comes from demolition, from the building committee, from how the street could convey this kind of system? What was it based on? And everything has an order, everyone acts according to their personal file. The second kind of relationship is the relocated (demolished) persons; there are all sorts of relationships, but are unanimous in the “demolish” and “demolished” relationship. There is also the third relationship of the development quotient, hiding invisible behind these two relationships. You know that at that time the developers and the government have an agreement, they cannot demolish these homes, they can use the name of demolition to destroy the buildings and when its over both sides will compensate for the economic losses.

That is something that you cannot see… so I find these relationships interesting. Later on I see so many people photographing the city, they make it romantic, or they make it look cool, and they only concern themselves with the details, it is so visual and trendy.

Li: Its also saying that when you put these problems in the light of today, they are still very interesting?

Wang: In my opinion, many problems seem to have only just begun.

Li: When do you think these kinds of problems can be solved?

Wang: I don’t know.

Li: Are you saying that once the entire city is demolished the problem is solved?!?

Wang: I don’t want to give people a kind of feeling, what problems have I solved? I’m also facing this progressing world.

Li: Are you saying that you haven’t found a complete solution to the problem?

Wang: I have only my own methods to deal with my thoughts, I’m not saying that I am searching for solutions to society’s problems, there’s a difference there and I think that is important. Sometimes there is a person who emerges to solve society’s problems, and he wants to speak for the people, in the process maybe he will earn a place in society and even make a profit, I think this game is already played out.

Li: Actually many people are still outside of these conditions. Like the rise of China’s silicon valley, even a farmer can go buy software. Isn’t that a problem?

Wang: We just talked about ‘intellectualism,’ where one important point is that he wants to maintain a continuous questioning of authority, but not only through the methods of questioning authority will he make everyone listen to what he has to say, or know who he is, or turn that into some sort of stance. To be approved by the popular media, to be a literary capitalist and then use that kind of culture to earn profit. This kind of game in China has passed repeated tests and proven to be a success, because there is no powerful enough noise to supervise it, only the encouraging sounds, there is no sound to supervise him or stop him from doing it. They will also appear as that kind of “intellectual,” write a book, turn it into a film, that is just like taking one person’s capital and turning it into a public capital. Actually, public funds are also maintained in one person’s hand, in that sense it is just producing a new cultural product.

Li: A very obscured structural relationship.

Wang: At last join some large operation, turn it into a commercial capital… that is exactly the “intellectualization” that you thought you couldn’t see. The things to call into question are invisible––do you think there is something to be critical of there? Even the universities are lacking this kind of atmosphere, but to not even talk about the students, the teachers don’ t even think that way.

Li: I think that I am in general agreement with your idea, because it seems now that these superficially “intellectual” people are all making a show. Under the guise of “wisdom” and “original creation” they are criticizing bigger profit groups, and then over here they are rushing to sensationalize their own publications.

Wang: Using the name of ‘criticize’ to bring attention to the matter.

Li: Exactly. And finding profit relationship in diametric opposites.

Wang: I think the funniest example is, just before Christmas, suddenly there were a group of professors who started calling ‘Christmas’ the ‘collective unconscious,’ they used their knowledge on how to analyze political trends, social hot spots, and found the most attractive channel on how to enter the capitalist market. In the end, the attention it gained was all abandoned into cyberspace.

Li: Perhaps they were too slow to know how many hits they had. For so many people

this is already something so familiar.

Wang: There is a strategy now, but it is too primitive, a completely commercial mechanism. Taking someone’s personal sound and a public, the thing most able to attract people’s eyes and adhere them together, no matter in what way, endorsing is still against connectivity.

Li: I just ran into a similar thing. There was a reporter who was interviewing on the problem of the creative industry. I thought it was interesting, they were asking a lot of questions on what the creative industry was lacking. I said, I don’t think that it’s about what the creative market is lacking, but do we have an industry? Do we have creativity?

Wang: First of all, what is creativity? Then go on to talk about the industrial level.

Li: “What else does it lack” already implies that we have one.

Wang: You forgot, when we participate in any creative activity, from the beginning to the end of the meeting, various leaders are giving speeches, the profit department gives a speech, their analysis reports, operations–––then they discuss their profits. You discover that the entire creative industry has absolutely no relation to creativity.

Li: It’s a little like riding a horse in circles, shouting slogans from horseback and then running another circle.

生活在别处 访问人：李振华 被访人：汪建伟

李：你指的无限判断是那个方面的无限判断？ 汪：就是他根本不去判断。当前，对当代文化是基本不判断的。而且这种不判断的后面隐藏了一个很 大的潜台词，他在没有判断之前就认为这种判断无意义。这种无意义是两种，第一是不给他带来利 益；第二，他认为里边没意义，这两种状态上就是新型的资本主义和后共产主义两个之间的结合，这 就是我现在研究的新的命题。 李：我最近看了两部电影。一个是那个《巴别塔》BABEL，一个是《血钻》blood Diamond。后来我觉 得两个都很揭露现实，连资本主义都在讨论这样的问题，《日常生活的建筑》这个系列的作品，我只 看过这一个片子。你的《日常生活的建筑》中其他片子也涉及到很多问题，能不能大概谈一下选择了 什么问题作为研究的线索？ 汪：其实那个片子在今天看，正好是十年了。《生活在别处》只是我那段时期作品的其中之一，而且 像《日常生活的建筑》中涉及的一些状况到现在仍然没有变化。当时我总的感觉是有好几个想法，第 一就是，当代艺术在那个阶段，我们还特别沉醉于某一种西方的传统样式。比如说，装置就是要把它 做成个物质化的，Video基本上还是Viola Gavi Hode这种样式的东西。另外我觉得，其实这个时期， 中国社会变化很快，艺术家的作品，包括你所谓的社会性它到底在哪？实际上那就是我十年前工作的 理由。当时看了很多的书，像： 米歇尔·福柯 ［Michel Foucault］, 布厄迪尔 ［Pierre Bourdien］的书等，开始将事物作为一种关糸和整体去把握，然后能不能在一个整体的氛围和关系当中去开 展你的工作。我觉得当时做《生产》这个作品，就是从这开始的，然后你会觉得范围更大，对象实际 上就是城市，但是在调查的过程中突然发觉我们传统上认为的那个城市是不存在的，我是想把传统认 定城市的那套概念系统打破，通过文本与田野调查，在方法论上介入到城市以及这个过程与艺术存在 什么样的关糸？《日常生活的建筑》实际上也是在这样的背景下产生的，它有十个大的部分，当时我 也写过一篇文章阐释这个观点，如果我们认为城市和建筑是在一个社会化平台所产生的，那么任何一 种简单的还原，可能会变成各种社会关系所提供的某一种我们所看得见的东西，而我的兴趣是想能否 找到一种更为综合的方法去理解城市，简单的讲不是关注城市是怎样的？而是“为什么”是这样的， 也就是建筑和城市看不见的那个部分。当时是在这么一种背景下产生的，而且我觉得十年了，我认为 艺术，尤其当代艺术实际上仍然没有很深入的介入到整个社会进程中去，首先是‘问题’仍然产生在 艺术内部，当然我觉得自己好像还是在这个过程中，十年，你根本来不及回顾，好像觉得好多事情根 本还没开始做。比如今年我要做的一个新的作品《交叉感染》，可能就是在那样十年基础上的一种思 考。 李：我觉得你是一个比较有趣的个案。就是艺术家对社会的责任，对社会环境有特殊的关心。我可能 简化点说就是带有点知识分子性质的艺术家形态。我觉得在你身上可能是比较明显的。但是，具体到 这个“知识分子”性的问题，我也查了很多解释，好像有很多种说法。有一种说法我觉得可能更接近 一点。“知识分子作为一个，首先是有知识的个体，然后在这种社会的视角中保持一种比较冷静的态 度，观察事态的发生和结果，然后提出问题。” 汪：我们不能总是谈大的概念，比如社会这个概念，我觉得艺术家对社会问题的关注本身不是问题。 你从历史上看，中国艺术家对社会问题同样的关注，而我关注的是，你怎么关注社会，你拥有的是什 么样的世界观来关注社会。我们不能永远是“清明上河图”，实际上我们没有带入艺术和知识的方法 去关注社会，这也就是我们长期回避的问题，就是用社会问题回避知识和文化，这样会出现什么问题 呢？就是一说关注社会，马上就弄得非常感觉化，好像只有这样才能体现社会。但是，你发觉一百年 了，我们对社会的关注方式还在原地踏步，社会本身的复杂与残酷被遮蔽，最后变成了某一种符号， 而且它蔓延到戏剧、小说、文学里去。所以我认为，以什么样的态度和方法去关注社会更重要，而且 你是艺术家，你以什么样的方式又将你关注的这种方式展示出来，变成艺术语言方式，我觉得这不光 是有态度就够了，如果你没有足够的实践来支持的话，它就有可能变成机会主义了。因为当一个艺术

家说他关注社会的时候，他就借助了社会作为他的背景，社会有时会提供一个非常强大的理由，实际 上就是让人“闭嘴”，有的时候这就变成了一种机会。你经常会看到，一部电影或者一个戏、一本小 说，写得一塌糊涂，但作者会花大量的笔墨书写他在关注社会，这个游戏我觉得不值得再玩，加上中 国没有一个正常的批评机制，没有一个公开批评和第三者这么一个语言方式，来把艺术家和社会之间 作为作品的这部分拿出来批评。我们只能在茶余饭后去谈关于作品的问题，或者最后莫名其妙的变成 了一种社会化新闻，并以娱乐的方式去报道。 第二个就是你说的知识问题，简单的说就是你有什么样的世界观和你看事物的方法，而不是说，你学 了很多知识就叫“知识分子”，而是它给了你什么样的能力。我觉得对于我们的大学来讲，它必须学 习质疑知识的知识，而对知识分子来讲，他必须有质疑知识的能力，这种质疑的态度基本上保证了你 永远对主流保持距离，永远不要把自己变得“十分有用”。从社会学的角度来讲，“十分有用”就意 味着某一种利益跟你达成了默契，就像你看我们现在的建筑，包括我们的影像批评为什么那么弱？它 实际上都变得非常有用了，一种有用的东西对我来讲现在就是一种新的意识形态，并积极的与商业利 益之间达成了利益共享。 李：刚才说的这个艺术关注社会的问题。因为大多数人都会下定义。我觉得是很危险的，就是可能很 多人都想很浅显的给某个东西下个定义。你觉得这个是问题？尤其是在做艺术，现在是做学问。譬如 说，很多大学都在给“新媒体”下定义。我觉得这个是比较难理解，为什么会这样？ 汪：这是中国的传统，这个传统就是希望能用最简单的方式去了解世界，另外，我们崇尚的知识就是 用非常确切的态度去解释世界，同时这也是导致我们为什么没有阅读整个抽象艺术的基础，就更不 用说当代艺术了。我们的基础教育和我们的文化教育从根本上就把关于“不确定性”知识的阅读方 式全部抽取了，我们无法去建立和使用“不确定性”的经验和阅读方式，而这恰恰是当代艺术很重 要的经验。我们否认“不确定性”的存在方式，比如说，商业反对“不确定性”，政治也反对“不 确定性”，就是说这两个东西实际上变成合谋，都需要确定性，那么对文化上就是很致命的，也就是 说我们现在是用这样一种态度去看待所有的事物。比如在批评艺术时最常用的方法就是“看不懂”， 就是要求你必须确定，但是我觉得这个世界上，从一个多元机制来讲，应该允许有“不确定”的东西 存在，而且应该允许人去拥有“不确定”知识。我觉得现在都还谈不上我们如何使用这样的经验和 知识，我们还需讨论“不确定性”知识使用的“合法性”，我们讨论了很长时间的当代艺术，停留 在“艺术家”跟“大众”之间的对立上，我们还不说“大众”这个词有没有。我一直否定“大众”这 个词，因为这个词是“华而不实”的，是被制造出来的，就像“人民”这个词一样。你说我们现在两 个人在采访，我们是不是“大众”？如果说“不是”，依据是什么？依据什么样的量化和标准说我们 俩不是“大众”、不是“人民”？如果“是”，这个问题就更吻合了，那“我是人民”，“我创造了 艺术”，那就是“人民的艺术”，用基本逻辑都不成立的方法去解决认识问题。什么“大众”、“人 民”，我觉得这些词制造了很多混乱，它把问题笼统化，就是在这种笼统当中，不需要更多的知识来 把某一个东西搞清楚，就是说，看起来很混沌，但实际上最后流于简单。 李：表面的。 汪：回过头来就是刚才你的那句话，它变成了一个对所有的事物先下定义，然后在规定的界线中作一 个结论，但问题是还有更糟糕的，下完定义以后，所有的阅读就到此为止了。在我的作品里，我一直 崇尚的是不确定性，我觉得它作为一种新的语言系统，这是我所感兴趣的，否则就谈不上实验艺术 了，当然我觉得艺术应该允许不实验，但我个人是对实验艺术有兴趣的。 李：你觉得刚才说到“语言”这个问题，你觉得是什么？ 汪：谈这个问题，可能在3月份的时候，我有一个在尤伦斯基金会的讲座，我的题目就叫“大脑设 计”。我在十几年前我看过一本书的名字“大脑设计”给我的启发，“大脑设计”即意味着两个方 式，第一，你完全撇开现在的这个系统来谈一个对象。第二，保持这样的一种态度，始终保持一种可 能性的态度。 李：保持一个什么样的态度？ 汪：就是不断的质疑，比如对潜在的秩序、规则、规范以及它如何贯彻在你的知识，语言，习性里 面。所以说PURODUI的很多东西对我有影响，他认为习性、场所和语言这些之间，综合形成“场域”，

我觉得这种方法论很有意义，也就是说当我们要去看这个问题的时候，我们必须是从一种关联的态 度，也许这个问题产生一个关系，那么这个关系有很多种因素，你不能只说“哪一种因素”。我们以 前的历史唯物主义，只强调可以看得见的那部分，看不见的是唯心主义，这种惯性还在继续，就像我 们现在还在用阶级斗争的办法谈社会，什么穷人富人？这跟以前“地主、富农和贫下中农”这个态度 几乎一样，现在的建筑师经常也在谈“为穷人建房”，把自己放在人民一边，占领有利位置，有意思 的是我突然发觉人民大众的概念现在变成“穷人”了，你去研究它的这种脉络挺有意思的。另外为什 么我要谈“大脑设计”这个词，是想摆脱那种宏观的、似是而非的，能把人最后变成一种很“机会主 义”的陷阱中，所以我谈它既是我自己的一种思维状态，同时它也是我对作品的一种状态，这些在我 作品里都能找到。 李：那就是说在刚才咱们聊的“大脑设计”，就是聊的跟思想的一个情况有关系了。我还是想回到咱 们开始谈的那个《生活在别处》这个作品，就是说在97年的时候，你开始做这个作品的初衷又是什 么？ 汪：简单的说，第一，我觉得能不能用一种新的方法来对待艺术，那么这个方法就是我刚才说的，从 关系的角度去看问题的这样一种态度。这种态度是不是艺术对我来讲不重要，但如果你要做这样的工 作，那么这样的工作是在一种什么样的状态下？你看问题的方式，你使用什么样的技术，你在什么样 的场所，这个场所所发生的什么样事，我对于这些东西有兴趣。第二，是当时中国这种社会主义的变 化，我觉得好像已经是非常大的变化，但没想到，这种变化到现在愈演愈烈。十年前我开始关注城 市、土地、身份，就是农民和城市之间的冲突和矛盾，包括整个城市的发展，所带来各种利益和人跟 这个城市的关系。我们以前长期对城市有个概念，对艺术作品有个概念，对农民有个概念，那么当这 些概念自动解除以后，它会是什么？但这种“自动解除”不是你说解除就解决了，就像我拍完《生 产》这个作品，有很多艺术家就问我说这个东西是什么，如果这个作品不参加“文献展”，我觉得可 能这个质疑要继续。第三，就是我对影像感兴趣，但就影像而言，当时我首先考虑的是我们的知识系 统和方法论是不是可以有一种改变？这种改变你怎么和中国的个案产生关系？在这个基础上就是你的 技术系统。作为影像艺术家，你的影像来自于什么？你怎么制造它，当时我称为“视觉调查”，暗示 将某种方法与现场拍摄联系在一起，同时产生不同的阅读，很多人也怀疑。有一次看到一篇文章，认 为艺术家使用其他科学的经验是“玄”，就是“很玄的东西”，他们认为那是一种宗教的东西，所以 说我觉得连这样的基本概念都没有，你说你怎么谈当代艺术的可能性？这就是最开始的动机。 李：你觉得就是当时你拍的这十个问题，是否只有《生活在别处》被剪辑出来了。 汪：不。还有一个《不可预测的空间》。那个作品有三十分钟，也剪出来了，那个个案也挺有意思 的。有一个房地产开发商，他要在成都建一座“豪宅”。他通过各种关系，合法地拿到了成都最好的 公园中的一片土地，而且是在公园的楠木林里面，他把人都清理出去了，要在那儿盖“豪宅”。在这 片刚开工不久的工地上我去采访了他，他描述了这里的远景规划将是怎样怎样的。结果三个多月过去 以后，我再去的时候，这个工地已经停工了，现场有许多人静坐，但他们代表不同的观点。一拨代表 宗教的，说这个楠木林底下有道教历代的坟地，不让他挖，说他破坏了宗教法；另一拨，是一些天天 来这里做锻炼的，认为这是大众的公园，他们破坏了园林法；开发商坚持自己的合法性，三方都有各 自的法律依据，但真正是什么关系呢？除了不同的利益关系之外，还有就是各式各样的因素纠缠在一 起时，它们之间所产生或引发的更多的复杂性。 李：这个关系很有意思。 汪：第三部分正在编辑，一个叫观音巷的街道，是成都很重要的一条小巷，政府下了一个指示，由于 有两个大路之间要连接起来，所以就要把这条街拆完。我去那儿时，从看他们怎样下文，到最后拆 完，整个全程跟踪了四十天。这个片子一直舍不得剪，就是我觉得素材虽然都是十年前的，但是到现 在你仍然认为，有些事情要再重新理解。我老看那些素材，在途中我曾剪过三次，但在三次剪的过程 中都停了下来，它不是我想象得那么简单的事情，就是说，我必须要超过、超越《生活在别处》这样 一种看问题的方式，因为这个里面有好几种关系。第一是政府的关系，就是声音，这种声音通过拆迁 办，通过建委，通过街道办这样一条系统如何传达下来？它依据的是什么东西？而且每一个东西都是 有条理的，所有人是按照文件来走的；第二种关系，就是被移址（拆迁）的人，他们有各式各样的关 系，但是他们在“拆”和“被拆”的关系上是一致的；那么，还有第三种关系，就是发展商，躲在这 两种关系的后面看不见。你知道在那个时候，开发商还跟政府之间有协议，就是说他拆不动这些房

子，他会以拆迁办的名义来拆，然后相互在经济上补偿，现在你看不见这个东西了，所以这些关系对 我来讲太有意思了。我后来看了很多人拍城市，有点浪漫，弄得很酷，只对局部进行处理，非常视觉 化和时尚。 李：也就是说这些问题拿到今天来看还是特别有意义的 ？ 汪：对于我来说，很多问题好象才刚刚开始。 李：你觉得这样的问题什么时候会解决呢？ 汪：不知道。 李：是不是城市拆完了就解决完了？！ 汪：我不想给人一种感觉，我已经解决了什么问题，对于我来说，我也正面对着这个进行中的世界。 李：就是你也没有找到完全的解决问题的方法。 汪：我只有解决我自己思想方式的方法，而不能说我在寻找解决社会问题的方法，这是有区别的，我 觉得这个很重要。当有一天某个人他以解决社会问题的面貌出现，他要替大众发言、为社会说话时， 他有可能想获得一个社会的位置，并以此获利，我觉得这样的游戏太多了。 李：其实很多人还是处在这个状态的。像中关村的兴起也是，一个农民都会去卖软件的。这个不就是 这个问题吗？ 汪：我们刚才谈到“知识分子性”，很重要的一点就是他要保住持续性质疑，而不是仅仅以质疑的方 式让大家听见他的声音，让大家知道他，变成某种姿态，被大众媒体认可，成为一种个人文化资本， 然后用这样的文化资本去获利。这个游戏在中国屡试不爽，因为没有一个强有力声音来监督他，只有 可以让他干这个事的声音，没有监督他不让他干的声音。这也会出现那种“知识分子”，写一本书， 把它转化为一个形象，也就是成功的把个人的资源变成了一种公共资源，公共资源实际上又掌握在个 人资源的手里，这样的话那就产生出一个新的文化产品。 李：一个很混淆的结构关系。 汪：最后再去运作它，把它转换成商业资本，这就是你认为的你看不见“知识分子性”。看不见质疑 的东西，你觉得有批判吗？连大学都没有这种空气了，先不说学生，老师都不想这么做。 李：我觉得现在我挺同意你说的这个。因为现在好像表面上有“知识分子性”的人都是在作秀。 以“知识”的名义、以“独创”的名义在骂更大的利益集团，然后在这里面迅速的炒作自己出书。 汪：以“骂”的名义“送秋波”。 李：是。找到二元对立的利益关系。 汪：我觉得最滑稽的一个例子是，在过圣诞节之前，突然有一群教授起来在网上把过“圣诞 节”叫“集体无意识”，是他们把自己的知识用在如何分析政治趋势、社会热点，找到最佳进入这种 资本市场的途径，最后好像“秋波”未遂。 李：好像他们还是慢了不知道多少拍吧。对很多人来说，这已经是轻车熟路。 汪：现在有一个策略就是，不过这个太原始了，这完全是彻头彻尾的商业技巧。就是把自己的某一种 声音和一个公众，就是最吸引眼球的一个现象粘连在一起，不管什么样的方法，拥护还是反对它都是 一种连接方式。

李：这几天我又碰到一个也是。就是有一个记者采访关于创意产业的问题的。我觉得挺有趣，就是问 了很多创意产业还缺什么。我说，我觉得不是创意产业缺什么，而是我们有产业吗？我们有创意吗？ 汪：先是创意是什么？然后再说产业层面的事情。 李：“还缺什么”就意味着我们已经有了。 汪：你忘了，我们去参加一个什么创意活动，整个会议自始至终，各种领导讲话，利益部门讲话，他 们的分析报告、运作------，然后是他们的利益，你发现这个创意产业跟创意毫无关系。 李：有点像“跑马圈地”，喊着口号再圈一遍地的那感觉。

Technological Progress and Social Politics Interviewer: Li Zhenhua Interviewee: Wang Yuyang Li: When did you start to engage in contemporary art?

Wang: I was enrolled into the Central Academy of Drama in 2000, and entered the field contemporary art field in 2002. My relevant works in this field are “No Fantastic Fly” in the Academy Teams Exhibition, “Margaret’s Neighbor” in the Exhibition of Restoring 798 in 2003, and “No Title” in the Third Post-sensate Group Exhibition in 2003. Later, I went to study in the studio of experimental art in the Central Academy of Fine Art and studied in Lv Shengzhong’s studio. In 2006, I attended the first academy documentary exhibition with the work “Breath.”

Li: Why are you interested in the topic of moon landing so much? Is there any connection between this work and your previous works?

Wang: For long, I have been interested in the Chinese ancient legend about Chang’e’s trip to the moon, and the moon is always mysterious to me. Later, I read about American’s moon landing exploration on July 21 1969, which deeply impressed me. The legend of Chang’e and American’s moon exploration both seem legendary, but both questionable. Of course, I don’t believe the Chang’e legend, but I doubt the credibility of the American exploration as well. So how true are these two legends? Is there any connection between these two? These are the questions I really explore. My previous works have focused more on human body. Since “Margaret’s Neighbor”, I already started to pay more attention to the relationship between individual and society. In most time in 2004 and 2005, I worked on drama. After all, I am more familiar with drama, and it is a more comprehensive art form.

I went back to the academy in 2006, and continue my research on the relationship between individual and society.

Li: There are a lot of historical materials about the American’s moon exploration in work.

How important is the factor of history in this work?

Wang: History has been constantly under interpretation from different perspectives. History is always under both macro and micro perspectives. From the macro-perspective, it’s about facts, while it’s about individual emotion from the micro-perspective. Due to my curiosity towards the moon, I examined a large volume of materials on the moon exploration. At first, I was awed by the great success the US had achieved. But when I read a lot about the questions people raise about it, I myself became suspicious about it.

I tried to replicate the video about Apollo’s moon exploration.which was broadcast alive globally on July 16, 1969. I replicated the exact video with the same scene and from the same angle. The original video may be produced in the same way, or it may not. By replicating the video on the moon exploration, I don’t mean to only question the authenticity of the moon exploration history, but to question the authenticity of science and history as a whole. There is a ripple effect in my mentality.

Li: How do you perceive the means of media employed in work ?

Wang: The means of media are composed of individuals and collectives alike, imposing impact and limit on the individual at the same time. The industrial revolution at the end of 19th Century not only made it easier for people to travel for a long distance, but also transform people’s concept about time and space. Later, the communication revolution

in late 20th Century overthrew the concept about time and space completely. Habermas once said that the development of modern media has destroyed the traditional public field, the tangible space for people to gather and discuss public topics rationally has disappears. At the same time, just like the water pipeline is the result of urbanization and the water well is the result of the surrounding the rural community, the key components of traditional cities, along with the concepts about civil rights, the public and urban scenery, are under transformation. The French philosopher Virilio believed that the imaginary culture of the computer era make it unnecessary to have any distance for people’s perception. Just years ago, there were very few artists in the field of media art. But now, media art is everywhere, with political support from government and financial support from the business sector. Many universities establish departments and provide courses related to media art. Exhibitions and seminars in the media art field were all over the places. However, behind this prosperity we have to reconsider the content of these artworks. It raises the question that whether we should tolerate everything just because it takes the form of media. There are many fields in media art that reserve more attention, such as those media artworks which take the form of physical, biochemical, medical, micro-technological and audio installation works. But not everything in the form of media is media art. We need to calm down and be critical about the media itself.

Li: How do you perceive the relationship between technology and history in this work ?

Wang: On April 12, 1961, something provoking to the US happened, the Soviet astronaut Gagarin entered the space for the first time in the history of human being. American President Kennedy, who was just waken up, was astonished hearing the news, because it meant that the Soviet Union had taken the lead in the arm race of the space. In another word, the US was losing the arm race. In anger, Kennedy said that it’s yet another shame for American people, following the Soviet Union’s sending the first satellite to the space, …American will be the first to land on the moon.” He proposed that the US send people to the Moon in ten year. NASA later made the famous “Apollo” plan of moon exploration.

In Greek mythology, Apollo was the sun-god of music and poetry. Apollo is the twin brother of the moon god Artemis. To avenge his mother’s death, he killed the giant python.

The legend itself explains why the American government chooses this god of revenge to name its moon exploration.

After 30 years, Greerchefu publish an article, which questions the authenticity the photos on the US’s moon exploration. He believed that all the images and videos the astronauts claimed to make on the moon were actually produced in the studio of the Hollywood. He emphasized that his conclusion is based on serious scientific analysis and confirmation. The major reasons can be summarized as the followings: 1.

Stars were missing from the black lunar sky from all the images; 2.

Shadows in these images were cast in multiple directions, but with the sun as the only source of light, the it should be in one direction; 3.

American flag was waving, but it’s impossible when there is no air on the moon ; 4.

In the video, the astronauts were walking on the moon, as if they were walking on the earth. But the gravity on the moon is much smaller than on the earth. On step on the moon should have been as wide as 5 or 6 meters on the moon; 5.

When the astronauts’ vehicle was moving “on the surface of moon”, the speed of rocks bumping out is the same as if it had been on the earth, while it should be much faster – 6 times faster than it is on the earth.

Greerchefu said he suspects that the images made by American astronauts more than 30 years ago not to dismiss the great efforts made by the American astronauts. He claimed that the American astronauts were very close to the moon surface, but failed to land on it due to technological difficulties. However, the US was desperate to show its success

to the whole world. Therefore, they made the fake pictures and a fake documentary video later, thus cheated people for all these years. He also claimed that the famous American engineer Ralf Rene and British scientist Dave all agree with him on this. Professor Bill Kaysing, who claimed to have participated in the Apollo project, published a book entitled “We never went to the moon”. In the book, he also provides a list of doubts. He believed that there is no doubt that the rocket was launched, but not to the moon, but the Antarctic instead. The command module was shoot out and captured by a military aircraft.

Then the astronauts performed ”the moon-landing process” somewhere on the earth. They then came back to the command module, and were sent to the Pacific to complete the so-called the moon-landing performance.

The claim that the Apollo moon exploration is a hoax raises great concerns among American society. Scholars like Hamlet, the famous physical scientist also agrees with the conspiracy theory. They believe that the moon landing of Apollo is a hoax due to these reasons: 1.

The images of Apollo’s landing on the moon are fake. According the statistics released by the NASA, the angle between the sun and the moon was about 6-7 degrees at the time of landing. But calculating from the American flag in the picture, the angle is about 30 degree, which could only be obtained 46 hours after the “the first step”; 2.

After analyzing the video made on the “moon”, the height of the leaping of astronauts on the moon surface is very similar to the height on the earth ; 3.

Laser retro-reflector was not installed on the moon. According to the statistics of an American astronomical observatory, the laser receiver on earth can only receive a signal that is only 1/200 of what could have come from a laster retro-reflector. In another work, there is no laser retro-reflector.

4.

The progress made on the Apollo plan is very dubious. The US made “the Saturn5” in as late as January 1967. It was launched the first time on January 27. The launch failed, and three astronauts were killed in the accident. After the accident, the Lunar Module was redesigned. The research on hardware was postponed by 18 months. How could it is possible that the moon landing was successful in July 1969.

5.

Now, the most developed space shuttle is only capable of lifting 20 tons to the lower orbit in the space. If the Saturn-5 was capable of lifting 100 tons of materials to the earth orbit, and carrying dozens of tons out of the gravity, why it was later abandoned. It was said that even the original design was lost. How come it is possible ?

6.

On the moon surface, the temperature in daytime can reach as high as 121 degree Celsius. From the pictures, we can tell the camera was out of the space suit without any protection mechanism. The films could become disabled at 66 degree Celsius. It’s impossible to take a picture.

However, there are those who don’t believe that Apollo project could be fake. Firstly, the whole process was broadcast alive globally, with billions of people watching it. In addition, the astronauts brought back hard materials from the moon, like rocks. Second American government wouldn’t dare to risk its reputation. If it is a conspiracy, they wouldn’t take the risk of losing all creditability to broadcast it alive. They could just release some pictures, because if there was anything wrong, the American government had to bear the consequences, even lose the state reputation forever. Thirdly, the NASA has thousands of scientists and engineers, most of whom upheld a serious scientific attitude, and wouldn’t take it lightly. If the moon exploration is a conspiracy, not only it’s impossible for every participant to risk their reputation, but also it’d be very difficult to keep the secret with some many people participating. Moreover, the American press is allpervasive. If there is any dishonesty in the government, the press should have reported it.

But now, the American press is relatively calm. which may reflect something.

After all these debates, the US held a ceremony to celebrate the 30thanniversary for

human’s first moon landing in the National Air and Space Museum in Washington on July 20, 1999. The then American Vice-President Al Gore granted the Gold Medal to the three astronauts who had landed on the moon, to honor their contribution to the space exploration. It may represent the official position of American government. However, Armstrong refused to attend any press conferences, to give autography, or to take any pictures. In 30 years, he has chosen to keep silent, which also puzzled many people.

38 years after, there is now again a race in the space. According to US’s the Times, the NASA is planning another ambitious moon exploration. They plan to send astronaut to the dark side of moon, and establish a space station on the moon. American press mentioned that the Pentagon had made similar plan to establish permanent military base on the dark side of the moon. The media also mentioned that the US re-launched its moon exploration plan for multiple reasons. As the earth is running out of resources, the issue of exploiting resources on the moon attracts the attention of many countries. The military aspect of building a permanent base is obvious. But what is more important is that the exploration and usage of the moon is a symbol of deterrence power of a state. It has great significance in promoting national confidence and unification. Back then when the images of Armstrong’s landing on the moon and putting the American flag was broadcast globally, it created an astonishing impact.

Following the US, many counties also have their own moon exploration projects. Among the players in the space race, India and China are two important competitors that get started almost at the same time. When China’s Shenzhou-5 space shuttle returned to the earth safely, Indian aeronautical scientists praised it generously and called it a “miracle.” Although it seemed that China had taken a step ahead of India, the proud Indians still believe that they will ultimately surpass China in the space race, because they already have a moon exploration project. The timeframe of India’s moon exploration was released this August. India will launch an unmanned explorer to the moon, and they will send Indian to the moon in 2015. According to Chinese media with governmental background, China has already initiated its moon-exploration plan. China will launch the “Chang’e” moon explorer in 2007. Although Chinese government hasn’t listed it as a state project officially, it is said that the minimal objective of China is to achieve its moon exploration before India.

The race between China and India is like the race between the US and the former Soviet Union. In August 2006, the US claimed that they lost all the original footage about the moon landing. The footage, numbered in 13 thousand volumes in 2 thousand boxes, with 15minuate video on each volume, track the whole process of the Apollo’s journey, from its launch to its safe return. Fifteen of these volumes, put in 3 boxes, record the “the key moments” of two astronauts. Richard Nafzger, who took charge of searching for the materials insists that the video are not lost, but just can not be located. It’s possible that they still lie in somewhere in the Goddard space Center, or were transferred to NASA’s archive system. It is said that the “lost” video materials are very clear, and they have never been shown to the outsiders. Even many NASA officials haven’t watched them before.

These video were shoot on the moon surface at the speed of 10 frames per second, and were instantly transmitted to the earth. But to broadcast via television, the minimal requirement is 60 frames a second. Therefore, everything people have seen on television has been edited based on the original video from the space. Compared to the original video, the quality is far less. Nafzer said the quality of original videos are several times better.

When creating my work, I used high-definition equipment in the whole process, including shooting, editing, and projecting the video to create a surrealistic effect with a image quality dozens of times better than what have been showed to the global public.

Let’s go back to the relationship between technology. We may able to restore the history using high-definition images, but many issues on history can not be solved by technology.

However, the history of technology itself is an evidence of the truth of history. Restoration itself is replication. In this project, we discussed the possibility of restoring technology, as well as the truth of double existence of histories.

Li: do you mean the relationship between existence and intervention of human body and the truth of history?

Wang: From the ancient time, human beings have been trying to overcome the limit and constrain from time and space with new technology. Time and space is the most important factor that defines the state of living and self-perception of the entire human race. Nietzsche in his work “On the uses and disadvantages of history for life” said that history should be under constant questioning, criticizing and judging., so that those who suffer in live and need to be liberated, can stand up from their suffering and prosecution, and make it possible to live and resist. However, people are inevitably influenced by one’s previous times. It’s impossible to cut history into piece and disregard some of the pieces.

While criticizing the history, one may identify with the history, consciously or unconsciously. In this process, the history in the conventional sense come back to live again under such “criticism”.

If history and human body come across each other a lot, historic events will leave their trace on human body. Then, human body are reflexible and flexible, and human body can intervene history, while can be intervened by history. The truth may become fake, while the fake may become true. Any history, when transformed into artistic language, will inevitably become fictitious. Anything fictitious, when trying to enter the field of history, will easily create some imagination about the true history. Stay outside the content, the history seems to be presented to the audience objectively, and the audience may take their personal experiences as witness of history and take the visualized history as what has happened in reality. Thus, the narration appears to be more authentic and more like the real history, and lead to finalization of a historic event, which will become perpetual. Whether they are taken as the true history, or as some kind of meaning of value, these historic events will always be taken as “the absolute history“, and become the public topic in public social and spiritual live.

Apparently, people narrate and listen to the history out of curiosity towards to the history and other people’s past. Actually, the real meaning is that it provides a kind of connection between the past and the present, and between other people and themselves, so that we can use the logic in historic event to better understand their own living conditions and development opportunities. One key characteristic of Croce’s historical theory is that it distinguishes between history and chronicle clearly, which is closely related to the statement of “all true history is contemporary history”. He said that history is a living history, while chronicle is a dead history; history is about the present, while chronicle is about the past; history is activity of one’s mind, while history is activity of one’s will. All history, when not to be contemplated, but be recorded using symbolic vocabulary, will become chronicle, even though those symbolic vocabulary was once vivid and expressive. He also said that when needed in life, the dead history will come back alive, and the past history will become contemporary. The Romans and Greek have been all lying in the tombs. They wake up until he European spirits revived in the Renaissance. Therefore, most of what we take as chronicle, and those silent historic documents will come back to live when the light of new life shines upon them.

Li: You provide a more philosophical integration for human’s intervention. Why do you need an interactive work? Why it is necessary to be interactive?

Wang: In today’s art field, personal expression and individual originality has gone beyond the artists and reach the common people. People’s demand for artists is not to create expressive content, but to design the environment and space, so that people can participate in it. What the artists are doing is not to sample in the real word in order to reflect personal viewpoint, but to establish a framework, allowing people to create their own world in it. The people will have the ability to construct their own reality, and thus re-establish themselves. The artists don’t just pick the content in the traditional way, but create an environment in which the viewers can interact with images, concept and experiences. When the viewers’ images enter the sphere with both the moon exploration video and the US video, it creates a juxtaposition relationship among multiple realities. To reach this juxtaposition relationship, a means of interactive media is necessary. Conceptual arts should go beyond just presenting the concepts. What I emphasize in my work is to bring the multiple aspects of a concept into the real circumstances. Relationship between the abrupt feeling the audience may feel and the composition of work make it necessary to be interactive.

Li: Dao you have different views and question creating the work? Where do these questions come from?

Wang: Firstly, when looking for the materials on the space suit, I found that the space suit of Apollp-11 was different, which posed a great puzzle during my creation. Are there different versions of moon suit? Secondly, to replicate the moon landing video, I employed a lot of lights to create an effect that is compatible to the US moon landing video. But, there were discrepancies, because of which, I couldn’t replicate the images. So I began to doubt the conspiracy theory about the moon landing. However, many arguments in the conspiracy theory were confirmed in many images. I finished the work in a process of questioning and counter-questioning. All the problems during filming, editing and interacting inspired my interests in technology. I will pay more attention to this field, to better incorporate technology and art.

Li: Why is it important in the circumstance of the contemporary art?

Wang: I believe the real meaning of replicating the moon landing video lies in the technology and social politics, the two most important factors in contemporary society, which reflect the avant-courier nature of the contemporary art.

Li: How do you perceive the “contemporarrity” and “Chineseness” of yourself ?

Wang: we can find many features that are typical of the “contemporarity” in the concept, which illustrates how the today’s “contemporarity” is different from the “modernity” in the past. What will come after the “contemporarity”? Modernity and post-modernity? Or Contemporarity and post–contemporarity? It is important to investigate what are the specific characteristics of today’s art. Is there a problem of regionality in the contemporary art? Do I have to play as a Chinese artist in the world contemporary art? Art critic and editor Huang Zhuan once wrote an article “How Chinese contemporary art obtain its international identity?” in Gallery magazine. He said that the attention given to the East by the international art field in recent years reflects the post-colonialism and “de-Europeanization” under the contemporary political background. It’s like the middle-class noveltyseeking sentiments towards the subtle oriental art after the Cold War. Should we just satisfy their curiosity or take this opportunity to reestablish the position of Chinese contemporary art in the international art field? What kind of attitude should we take while the Chinese contemporary art become internationalized? How to understand the international codes, to find the position for Chinese contemporary art, and to realize its value?

These question are the preconditions for the so-called “Chinese theme” to be escalated

into a â&#x20AC;&#x153;global themeâ&#x20AC;?. Otherwise, this international opportunity will become an international pitfall eventually.

科技发展与社会政治 访谈人：李振华 被访人：王郁洋

李：你什么时候开始做当代艺术的？ 王：2000年在中央戏剧学院上学，2002年正式进入当代艺术环境，作品有参加学校小组展览的《非幻 飞》、2003年参加再造798展览的作品《玛格立特的邻居》、2003年后感性第三次群展《无题》。后来 考入中央美术学院试验艺术工作室，在吕胜中老师的工作室研究当代艺术。2006 年 作品《呼吸》参 加首届学院文献展。 李：为什么对登月感兴趣？以前作品的形态和这个作品的关联性如何？ 王：从小时候中国古代传说，对嫦娥奔月的兴趣。对月亮一直有一种神秘感，主要是从文字资料方面 获得美国1969年7月21日登月的介绍，感觉非常受触动。嫦娥与美国的登月构成了一个巨大的思维上的 黑洞，我开始怀疑嫦娥神话的真实，也同时怀疑美国登月的这个事件的真实。陷入到一个真实的悖论 之中，到底哪一个才是真实，同样这两个真实的关系是什么？一直成为我关心的问题。以前作品主要 是从对身体的关注，到03年《玛格立特的邻居》的时候已经开始注意和研究个体与社会的关系。04年 到05年大多数时间都在从是戏剧方面的实践，因为戏剧毕竟是我熟悉的，也是一门综合的艺术。06年 再次回到了学院，同时继续研究个体与社会的关系。 李：作品中大量的出现与美国登月有关的历史性资料，历史问题的角度在作品中的重要性？ 王：历史在任何时期被解读都有着不同的角度，历史存在于一个宏观和微观之中，宏观上只有事件和 线索，微观上只有个体和情绪。因为对月球的好奇，所以研究了当时大量的登月资料，起初惊叹这一 伟大壮举，但后来也搜寻了一些关于登月的驳论，开始对美国登月产生质疑。我采用复制手段在影棚 拍摄1969年7月16日阿波罗登月全球实况转播,画面的角度手法服装道具等都保持与全球实况转播的图 像一至.复制是采用不同于原作或完全同于原作的手段进行再造，有对于原作的质疑，目的不是单纯 的再现，我采用复制手段来再造登月的影像不单是质疑登月这一历史事件的影像，同时是对科学的质 疑，历史事件的质疑，这是一个连锁递进的反思过程。 李：你怎么看待存在于作品中的媒体手段？ 王：媒体手段由个体／集体形成，反过来又对个体产生影响和约束。十九世纪末的工业革命不仅带来 便利的交通工具，也改变了人们对时间与空间的观念。二十世纪末的通讯革命，则是彻彻底底消除了 时间与空间的观念。哈贝马斯曾说：‘现代媒体的发展摧毁了传统的公共领域，那些人们聚首，理性 讨论公共话题的真实空间，已经消失殆尽。’同时，正如随城市化而来的自来水管道，摧毁了围绕水 井而建的乡村社区。传统城市的重要组成部分，包括公民权，公共场所和城市景观等概念都正处于变 迁之中。法国哲学家维希留一方面认为计算机虚拟文化取消了传统以来的文化所拥有的「超越」 价 值，另一方面又指出计算机虚拟世界取消了原本真实世界中「距离」之于人类感知的必要性。几年 前，从事媒体艺术的艺术家，寥寥无几；可是今天，媒体艺术可谓遍地开花。有来自政府的支持力 量，各大商业机构为与文化挂钩的赞助，各大学院与媒体有关的学科设立，各种与媒体艺术相关的展 览 、座谈会、让人目不暇接。然而，这背后， 当我们重新考虑这些作品及其内容时，我们不禁要问 是不是穿上媒体这层外衣的我们就可以宽容的对待它？媒体艺术中有些领域尚值得开发，例如物理性 的、生化的、医学的、微细科技、声音装置等媒体艺术，但不能只依靠媒体手段就构成艺术，需要保 持冷静，对媒体本身需要有一定的怀疑。 李：你对这个作品中技术与历史的关系是怎么看待的？ 王：1961年4月12日，发生了一件令美国人恼怒的事：苏联宇航员加加林首次进入太空。刚从床上被叫 醒的美国总统肯尼迪，知道消息后十分震惊，因为这表明苏联在航天技术上已领先美国一步，也就是

说在科技竞赛中美国处于劣势了。肯尼迪愤愤地说道“这是继苏联第一颗人造地球卫星上天之后，对 美国民族的又一次奇耻大辱！” “美国最终将第一个登上月球。”提出在10年内将美国人送上月球。 于是，美国航宇局制订了著名的“阿波罗”登月计划。阿波罗是古代希腊神话传说中的一个掌管诗歌 和音乐的太阳神，传说他是月神的同胞姐弟，曾用金箭杀死巨蟒，替母亲报仇雪恨。美国政府选用这 位能报仇雪恨的太阳神来命名登月计划，其心情可想而知。 时隔30多年，戈尔多夫却公开发表文章对美国拍摄的登月照片表示怀疑。他认为，所谓美国宇航员在 月球上拍摄的所有照片和摄像记录，都是在好莱坞摄影棚中制造的。他强调，他是在进行了认真的科 学分析和认证后作出这一结论的。其主要理由1.没有任何一幅影像画面能在太空背景中见到星星； 2.图像上物品留下影子的朝向是多方向的，而太阳光照射物品所形成的阴影应是一个方向的；3.摄影 记录中那面插在月球上的星条旗在迎风飘扬，而月球上根本不可能有风把旗子吹得飘起来；4.从摄影 记录片中看到宇航员在月球表面行走犹如在地面行走一样，实际上月球上的重力要比地球上的重力小 得多，因而人在月球上每迈一步就相当于人在地面上跨跃了5至6米长；5.登月仪器在“月球表面移 动”时，从轮子底下弹出的小石块的落地速度也同地球发生同一现象的速度一样，而在月球上这种速 度应该比在地球上快6倍。戈尔多夫表示，他质疑30多年前美国宇航员“拍摄”的登月照片和摄像记 录，并不是否定当年美国宇航员登月的壮举。他认为，美国宇航员当时是接近了月球表面，但因技术 原因未能踏上月球。由于当时美国急于向全世界表功，因而伪造了多幅登月照片和一部摄影记录片， 蒙蔽和欺骗了世人几十年。他说，美国著名工程师拉尔夫·勒内、英国科学家戴维·佩里和马里·贝 尔特都对他的这一质疑表示赞同。无独有偶，自称参与了阿波罗计划工作的比尔·凯恩教授曾写了一 本名为《我们从未登上月球》的书，书中对阿波罗登月计划也列举了一些疑点，甚至认为：载有宇航 员的火箭确实发射了，但目标不是月球，而是人迹罕至的南极，在那里指令舱弹出火箭，并被军用飞 机回收。随后宇航员在地球上的实验室内表演登月过程，最后进入指令舱，并被投入太平洋，完成整 个所谓的登月过程。“阿波罗登月计划”是否是一场骗局的问题在美国引起了强烈反响。以著名物理 学教授哈姆雷特为代表的人士肯定“骗局论”，他们认为阿波罗登月造假的依据有：1.阿波罗登月照 片纯属伪造根据美国宇航局公布的资料计算，当时太阳光与月面间的入射角只有6-7度左右，但那张 插上月球的星条旗的照片显示，阳光入射角大约近30度。照片中出现的阴影夹角应该在“跨出第一 步”后46小时才可能得到。2.阿波罗登月录像带在地球上摄制，通过录像分析，宇航员在月面的跳跃 动作、高度与地面近似，而不不符合月面行走特征。3.月面根本没有安装激光反射器根据美国某天文 台的数据可以计算得知，现在在地球上用激光接收器收到的反射光束强度只是反射器反射强度的1／ 200 。其实，这个光束是由月亮本身反射的。也就是说，月球上根本没有什么激光反射器。4.阿波罗 计划进展速度可疑美国直到1967年1月才研制出第一个“土星五号”，1月27日做首次发射试验，不幸 失火导致三名宇航员被熏死。随后登月舱重新设计，硬件研制推迟18个月，怎么可能到1969年7月就一 次登月成功呢？5.对土星五号火箭和登月舱的质疑现代航天飞机只能把20吨载荷送上低轨，而当年的 土星五号却能轻而易举地把100吨以上载荷送上地球轨道，将几十吨物体推出地球重力圈，为什么后来 却弃而不用，据说连图纸都没有保存下来？6.温度对摄影器材的影响月面白天可达到121°C，据图片 看，相机是露在宇航服外而没有采用保温措施的。胶卷在66°C就会受热卷曲失效，怎么拍得了照片？ 不过，也有许多人认为“阿波罗”登月计划不可能造假：首先因为该计划当时是在全球实况转播的， 近亿人亲眼看到。另外，宇航员还从月球带回了一些实物，如岩石。其次，美国政府不会拿信誉开玩 笑。如果是一次骗局，他们根本不需要冒这么大的风险实况转播，而只需事后发表一些照片即可。否 则万一有个闪失，美国政府要承担很大后果，甚至会名誉扫地而一蹶不振。第三，美国宇航局有成千 上万的科技、工程人员，绝大多数人都会持科学的态度，不会视严肃的科学问题为儿戏。如果登月计 划是一场骗局，不仅全体参与者的人格将受损，而且，让几万人守着谎言过几十年，实非易事。此 外，美国的传媒几乎是无孔不入。假如政府有欺骗行为，各大媒体一定会大做文章。而至今美国新闻 界并没有对此大肆渲染，其中必有一定道理。在热烈的争论中，1999年7月20日，美国在华盛顿国家 航空航天博物馆举行仪式，纪念人类首次登月30周年。美国副总统戈尔向当年乘“阿波罗11号”在月 球着陆的3名宇航员授予了“兰利金质奖章”，以表彰他们为航天事业作出的贡献。这多少表示了美 国政府对此的态度。但是，阿姆斯特朗依然拒绝参加任何记者招待会、签名或合影，30年来他选择了 沉默。这又给人们留下了一个巨大的疑惑。在38年后的今天新一次的太空竞赛又将出现，据英国《星 期日泰晤士报》报道，美国航天局正在制定一个“雄心勃勃”的登月计划，在2015年左右将宇航员送 上月球背面，到2020年以前在月球上建立太空站。据美国媒体披露，五角大楼40多年前就制定过类似 的计划，要在月球背面建立永久性的军事基地。媒体评论指出，美国重启登月计划有多方面的原因： 随着地球资源逐渐匮乏，开发利用月球资源已成为引起许多国家的高度关注；在月球上建立永久性基 地，其军事意义也不言而喻。更重要的是，对月球的探索与利用是一个国家战略威慑能力强弱的象 征，对于提高民族自尊心和增强国家凝聚力具有重要意义。当年阿姆斯特朗登月、美国国旗插在月球 表面的行为通过媒体传播到全世界，产生了惊人的威慑效果。 在美国的刺激下，世界许多国家也纷

纷出台了自己的月球计划。在参与全球太空竞赛的所有选手中，恐怕再也找不出第二个像印度这样与 中国基本处于同一起跑线的国家。正因为如此，当中国“神五”载人飞船顺利返回时，印度航天科学 家慷慨地称赞此举是一个“奇迹”。虽然在向太空进军的这一回合较量中印度暂时输给了中国，但心 气儿很高的印度人认定，太空竞赛中有一项它是能超过中国的，那就是其登月计划。印度的探月时间 表今年8月已经公诸于众：2008年之前向月球发射无人探测器，2015年将印度人送上月球。而据中国 官方媒体披露，中国的探月计划目前已经启动，将于2007年发射“嫦娥”号月球探测器，至于说登月 计划国家尚未正式立项，但据称中国的最低目标是“抢”在印度前面。中印之争如同当年美苏之战。 2006年8月美国发现丢失了登月的原始影像资料，影像资料记录下了“阿波罗11号”从发射到返回的整 个过程，共计1．3万盘录像带，装在2000个箱子里，每盘录像带记录长达15分钟的画面资料。其中记 录两名宇航员登月“关键时刻”的录像带有15盘，分装在3个箱子里。负责搜寻的主管官员理查德·纳 夫茨格坚持认为，这些录像带并没有真丢，只是现在不知道具体放在什么地方了。它们很可能还呆在 戈达德航天中心的某个地方，或者后来又被转到宇航局的档案系统中。据称，“丢失”的原始录像带 画面非常清晰，此前从未公开播映过，甚至宇航局许多官员都未观赏过。当时摄像机在月球表面以每 秒10帧的速度拍摄，然后实时传回地面跟踪站。但电视播放需要每秒60帧的画面，所以当年人们从电 视画面上看到的，都是根据太空传回的原始画面转换而成的影像，画面质量与原始录像带相比，失真 不少。纳夫茨格说，原始画面要比人们当时观看到的清晰好几倍。 在我的作品制作过程中我采用了高清设备拍摄，高清设备拍摄、剪辑，最后采用1920级别高清投影。 目的在于作品画面的清晰程度比全球播放的画面清晰程度高几十倍，而达到超现实效果。 回到技术与历史的关系，通过高清还原曾经的历史，历史有些问题是技术无法解决的，同样技术本身 的历史也导致历史真实性的证据。还原本身就是复制，在这个计划之中即讨论复制技术的可能，也讨 论双重存在的历史真实。 李：身体的存在、介入与历史的真实？ 王：自古至今，人类一直试图用各种技术创新克服时空对自身生存的限制。时空是决定整个人类生存 状态和自我认知的最重要因素。尼采在《历史对于人生的利弊》一文中认为，对于受难者和需要解放 者，历史需要被时时审问、批判和裁决，才能从苦难和压迫中站起来，求得生活与反抗的可能。然 而，人总是前世代的结果，历史无法被割断和抛弃，结果人在批判着历史的同时，又自觉不自觉地认 同历史，传统的历史也因此在这种“批判”的名义下得以借尸还魂。如果历史和身体有无数的交接， 如果事件可以反复地铭写在身体上，那么身体就既是反射性的，也是可变性的；身体既干扰了历史， 又受到历史的干扰。假作真时真亦假，任何发生的历史一旦转化为艺术的文本，不可避免地具有虚构 的性质；而任何虚构的文本试图闯入历史的时空，又容易造成人们对历史的真实想象。叙述人置身于 文本之外，使得历史仿佛“客观”地呈现在观者面前，观者于是将自我体验为历史的“见证人”， 将影像化的历史读解为实在的历史，极大地强化了叙述事物的真实感和历史感，意味着这一事件业 已定型、完成且不可改变，无论是作为一种历史的事实，还是作为一种意义和价值，它们都被视为一 种“绝对的过去”，而成为社会公共生活和精神信仰的永恒的公共话语。从表面上看，讲述历史与倾 听历史的行为，表现为对过去和他人历史的好奇，实际上这种行为的意义在于提供了过去与现在、他 人与自己的一种联系，使得人们可以借助于历史的逻辑，领会自身的存在状况和发展可能。克罗齐史 学思想的重要特征之一，是将“历史”和“编年史”进行了严格的区分，这和“一切真历史都是当代 史”这一命题联系在一起。他说：“历史是活的历史，编年史是死的历史；历史是当代史，编年史是 过去史；历史主要是思想行动，编年史主要是意志行动。一切历史当它不再被思考，而只是用抽象词 语记录，就变成了编年史，尽管那些词语曾经是具体的和富有表现力的。”他还认为，“当生活的发 展逐渐需要时，死历史就会复活，过去史就变成现在的。罗马人和希腊人躺在墓穴中，直到文艺复兴 欧洲精神重新成熟时，才把他们唤醒”；“因此，现在被我们视为编年史的大部分历史，现在对我们 沉默不语的文献，将依次被新生活的光辉照耀，将重新开口说话” 。 李：你为人为的介入提供了一个更哲学化的解释，你的作品为什么要互动？互动在这个作品中的必要 性是什么？ 王：在今天的艺术方面，个人表达与个人创意已经由艺术家延伸到了观众，人们对艺术家的要求不再 是创作动人的内容，而是设计环境、空间，让观众能够参与其中；艺术家现在所做的不再是在现实世 界中取样以反映个人观点，而是构造框架，任由观众在其中创造自己的世界。让个人有能力建构自己 的现实、重新自我创造，艺术家的工作不再传统角色中的拾取内容，而在于创造环境，观众在其中能 够经由互动参与影像、概念与经验的产生。观众的影像同时进入美国登月和我建造的登月影像中，达

到多重现实的并置关系，为了实现并置的关系，互动媒体的手段是必须的，并非观念艺术表达清楚观 念就可以，这也是我的作品中比较重要的，就是将观念的多个层面也反映到真实的场景中，观众进入 作品的突兀感与作品构成的关系形成了互动的必要性。 李：创作之中是否还产生对这个问题不同的看法与疑问？疑问来自哪里？ 王：首先，在寻找关于宇航服的大量资料中发现，关于阿波罗11号宇航服的不同版本，使我在制作中 产生了巨大疑问，难道有不同登月服的版本？其次，在拍摄中为了还原登月画面运用了大量的灯光以 求与登月画面的相同，但是，总是有一些出入，这些出入与后期升格而达不到还原画面效果，让我产 生了对登月驳论的质疑，然而驳论中提出的许多观点又在许多画面中得到了印证，我就在这样不断质 疑再质疑中完成了这个作品。拍摄中的问题，后期制作的问题，互动的问题激发了我对技术的探索， 我想以后可能更多的关注这方面问题的解决，换句话说更加注意科技与艺术的结合。 李：在当代艺术的语境中如何成立？ 王：我认为再造登月恰好在科技性与社会政治性，这两个当代社会的最重要经纬上体现了当代艺术的 前沿性质。 李：如何看待你自身的当代性，和中国性问题？ 王：我们可以在概念中找出关于“当代性”的许多特征，以便说明今天的“当代性”与昨天的“现 代性”是如何的不同，可是，“当代性”之后是什么呢？“现代”与“后现代” “当代”与“后当 代”？研究什么是今天的艺术的具体特征与表现才是重要的。当代性有地域之分吗？我是否非得在世 界当代艺术中扮演一个中国的艺术家呢？（批评家兼编辑的黄专在为《画廊》开辟的“中国当代艺术 如何获取国际身份”为题的讨论撰写的前言中这样写到：“近几年来，在艺术界中西方对东方的关 注，是国际当代政治版图上‘后殖民主义’、‘非欧洲中心化’思潮的一种反映，它有没有冷战后西 方中产阶级和文化界对东方的那种“含情脉脉”的文化猎奇的味道呢？我们是否应该去迎合这种趣味 抑或利用这一机会，重新确定中国当代艺术的国际方位呢？以何种姿态进入国际或者说如何深入了解 国际规则、摆正中国当代艺术的国际位置、认识其准确的国际价值是从文化意义上真正使‘中国话 题’转化成‘国际话题’的前提条件，否则，国际机会就可能变成一种国际陷阱。”）

The Frozen Canvas, Flowing Time Interviewer: Li Zhenhua Interviewee: Yang Fudong Translator: Lee Ambrozy Li: This exhibition is called “Sustainable Imagination,” Among its several threads, in my eyes, “Strange Paradise” a very important work because of its long time-span. You began in 1997 and completed in 2002. Few artists in China’s artistic circle adopt film as their media. For your part, what made you choose this as your material? What do you think such a kind of media can bring you?

Y: Actually, it was an easy decision. I neither specifically chose film nor did I expect some specific result. I just wanted to create something after graduation. Creating with film alone was only a simple idea that came to me, I had no other intentions.

Li: Before this film was finished, I saw another work of yours, it was a short named “Backyard - Hey!” and made in 2000. In my opinion that short expresses, in many ways, the measure you went to for creating models and settings from various angles. However, when I saw “Strange Paradise” I noticed that maybe I had made some wrong judgments; If “Strange Paradise” were shot in 1997, what would its style be like?

Y: In 1997, I was studying in college where what we learnt was not exactly based on our interests. Other sources drew my attention: contemporary art forms such as installation, performance art, ideas from abroad found in libraries and journals. They inspired me because they were new for me. However, if I made art for myself, I felt that films were exactly what I wanted to make. Though it would be a big project, I was aware, at least, of basic form my work would take: a standard film in 16mm, meaning I did not attempt to make a pure feature film at all. I’d like to add some of my own ideas.

Li: But why did you make such a long movie, or not calling it a movie, such a long work?

Y: It was natural, very natural.

Li: Isn’t time a thread in your work?

Y: It happens as it naturally progresses. According to my first idea, the work could be of some scale, which would have been a crazy blockbuster for me. After knowing what I should be doing, I made plans a 3-year-plan and a 5-year-plan.

Li: You have talked about certain technique problems in your “Strange Paradise.” What was the reason behind that?

Y: I did do some similar work before. But I knew nearly nothing about shooting a movie.

I had no relevant recollections or experience. My only experience was with in illusions and imagination. I figured out what I should do and how to carry things out just by imaging. But it doesn’t matter. The real problem was that I was short of energy. But we were talking about technique… we used two cameras, whose settings were in inverse proportion. Shooting a film is a professional job and the cinematographer was taking charge for his first time. I neglected the matter of funding and when we shot, we set two different settings on two cameras because actually, we were not sure about the right for-

mat. Sometimes the equipment on the left or the right made it into the frame. Adding to that, there are many problems with focus as well. For example, if I were to prepare your close-up with the focus on the curtain, then your figure would be blurred while the curtain is clear.

Li: This is a beginning for your personal style, wasn’t it?

Y: Actually, there is beauty in those mistakes, but I do not think they should be highlighted.

Li: Then, what is the reason for the some blurring in “Backyard - Hey!”?

Y: The blurring in “Backyard - Hey!” was not my fault. (laughing) The focus in “Backyard - Hey!” is actually not so bad, but there were some technique problems. Originally, I treated it as no more than a short. Because of funding limitations, both workers and assistants were kept to the minimum. In the movie trade, the division of labor is clear, and everyone should abide by the rigid and strict rules and be responsible for their own tasks.

But in my opinion, if you are bold enough, you can make films.

Li: I heard that before you set about this film, you took classes at the Film University.

What were you hoping to study?

Y: As a matter of fact, it wasn’t for further study––I only stayed there for about two weeks. In those days, I had nothing serious to do and wanted to take some lessons. It was just auditing classes. I lived in Wu Ershan’s dormitory and sat in on some classes. It was a good time. But l had some disagreements with certain teachers’ viewpoints which seemed very incredible, tricky and even deceitful. I thought that this was far from what I really wanted to do. The experiences and sensations I got from that period urged me to do something that I was dreaming of doing all the days. That would be much better than just listening to others. You listen to other people’s ideas all day, but its not as good as trying it yourself once, at least putting some ideas into practice. In 30 or 50 days I would start on my own work.

Li: Where did your source of funding come from then?

Y: I sought for funds from various persons... seeking funds is embarrassing. Many people think shooting films is something unreliable and will consume labor and money. It’s nearly impossible for friends refusing to help you if you truly have some family or some such troubles. But shooting videos is different. There are uncertainties both in whether you can complete it and whether you can repay the debt. That was the reality of the situation.

Li: You did not start the short “Backyard” until 1999, three years after that first film, is that true?

Y: After I shot “Strange Paradise,” I came across some living problems. I spent a lot of money while shooting “Strange Paradise” but never finished it. I came across difficulties and financial problems. At that time, outside pressures were rather heavy, from my parents, family and just daily life. Sometimes, people need to make compromise in life. Difficulties will remain difficulties no matter how you persist. I had to give up and resolve the problems I was immediately facing. I took a job and made some money. After I could afford basic living expenses I found I was unreasonable with the idea that making money was none of my business. As I started to work, my life became better and better day by day. Earning money and putting some aside changed not only the financial situation of my

life but also the spiritual. I found my former self was a “parasitic” someone who always wanted to carry out their ideal at others’ expense. I seldom worked before and so it did not annoy me. After I earned my first salary, some thousand Yuan at my job, I saw I could live by my own hands just like other common people. From then on, I became much more pragmatic.

Li: In the beginning of “Strange Heaven” you were concerned with the “Ink-Wash Painting.” Why did you begin with this?

Y: I used to paint oil paintings. At the time I has the simple idea of making a “quasidocumentary”, I wanted to make a fake one. The education in my youth was so positive, no matter whether in school or on TV. Throughout my entire primary education, all my schooling was up to standard and beneficial. For example, the teacher would encourage students to study hard, teach students “there is no royal road leading to knowledge,” from which we can benefit for our whole life. However, when I was young, my experiences called for totally different feelings. In the documentary a speech lasts for 4 or 5 minutes making comments on traditional Chinese paintings conveying a realistic mentality and living situation. In the episodes of the documentary, I found some things I was interested in. Maybe, to some extent it was like a professed love for what one actually fears. Perhaps sometimes it is not necessarily what you like. A lot of time it was like some groundless obsession.

Li: You made a false documentary as your first attempt. What was your initial idea, and how did the idea affect the developing plots. Was there any relevance?

Y: There is no necessary relevance, nor does it need it. I would like to retire the ideal of perfection in my documentary by referring to traditional Chinese paintings, to aesthetics, and creation itself. I would like to extract some common characters from them.

After watching the documentary you put forward a question for yourself of what is perfect. The documentary is an agent leading to the sensation of discovering grace in every thing or even of being perfect. Perfection here can be the real one, a false one or just an opposite one.

Li: From then on you deliberated on all kinds of problems. Before you actually made the film out there was a long period. Did you change your ideas during this long period?

Y: I did not review the materials until the film was to be exhibited and several years passed since I laid it aside. When I reviewed my work, I felt that it seemed to be familiar and strange at the same time, like another person’s work, but one in which you really understood the details. Another key point was the shooting angle. The whole film was seldom reedited after it was completed––except for an adjustment to its quality it is still the original 1997 version. In most occasions a work that is rediscovered several years after it was completed, would become totally different from the original one. But “Stranger Paradise” is an exception.

Li: From the aspect of editing and shooting, which is more relevant to “Seven Intellectuals in the Bamboo Forest” your short film or “Strange Paradise”?

Y: In fact, the series “Seven Intellectuals in the Bamboo Forest” in my opinion is not relevant with any specific work no matter if it is a short or long film. Certain ideas and conceptions are within, worthy of more consideration and thought.

Li: In some critics’ opinions, your works are called intellectual film, literary films or intellectual video art. What is your opinion about intellectuals?

Y: “Intellectual” is a broad concept. I can only understand it in general sense: simply, intellectuals are young men who had some education. To look at it in a humorous way, “Strange Paradise” is similar to the books in a toilet. This kind of literary film is in the same position as those private books understanding sexual rights.

Li: Since 1997, among your works, those made with film are better than those of other mediums. Do you know the reason?

Y: I would like to explain it with a story: Long, long ago there was a child from a poor family. His parents sent him to learn handwriting. But the child did not work hard. Later on, his parents bought expensive rice paper for him. The child knew the value of the paper, so he became diligent in learning and practicing. As the child in this story, my use of film in my work is an extravagance for me. Film is also my preferential material because when I am using such a material I hear the sound of video camera and I am inspired. If I’m filming with DV, I cannot catch that mentality and have different psychological feelings. Film, and in my eyes other machines, like human beings, are able to breathe. Digital has a cold lack of warmth, like some object. They are different in many ways.

Li: Would like to continue to create long works?

Y: I will as soon as possible. Because I still want to use film there will be some realistic problems. I have made a long-term plan.

Li: How would you like to catalogue your works? We have talked much about them. As regards to this media and its techniques, you have adopted many measures of filmmaking.

According to your initial ideas is what you made more like a movie, or a video?

Y: I believe these works exist as video. It is not necessary to catalogue them as some type. But made with film, it cannot be called a movie or weeded out from the artistic cannon.

Li: What did your idiosyncrasies about materials and filmmaking measures result in?

Y: For example, video made by DV cannot be shot in the same way as making a movie. That is reasonable. DV is a magnetized material that is inconvenient to cut and edit, but it provides some different shooting methods. If film is used in creating, one must work in another system. Ideas are the most important and decisive factor.

Li: How do you treat Qiu Zhijie’s critique of your works? Qiu mentioned you in some of his articles, the methods used in your video work. He pointed out some methods of people’s poses and positions, such as somebody sitting besides a lotus flower pond, or someone looking off in the distance. How do you look upon these aesthetic repetitions?

Y: His understanding is an initial feeling. He observed, first of all, a superficial level and then on a formal level. About the methods, his judgments are correct. However as for the images, I do not like to be catalogued into a type. An artistic work calls for thinking and contemplation. That is a matter of how to continue creating which is an important thing to me. It draws back to the question of “parallel works.”

Li: Is the production “Strange Paradise” a snippet of memory from some period?

Y: Not exactly. It is not a memory but an expression of sentiment about the mentality of a group of people.

Li: Is it an account in your own words or an observation?

Y: In fact, no standard description exists for it. There are mostly some narrations enumerated in it and things young people are eager to do. The narrator in this production is influenced by his surroundings and society, and he should face the impressions and discover resolutions. As a matter of fact, it is a common state including personal life moments and popular mentality during the transition from school to society.

Li: The setting is in Hangzhou, correct?

Y: Yes, because I had lived in Hangzhou for four years and I am familiar with the environment there. Many things there can inspire my sensations. As far as this point is concerned, the production “Strange Paradise” includes my own feelings and emotions Li: Many artists’ productions are usually of autobiographic style. This characteristic is hardly found in your works, in which there seems to be both your own words and your observations on some condition. Do you think you will maintain this in your productions in the future? In other words, what is the reason that you continue on in this manner?

From “Seven Intellectuals in Bamboo Forest” to “Strange Paradise,” I would like to ask whether this state is necessary to maintain in later productions and why.

Y: Description is good, as is close observation. Many elements of my work come from observations made in my own life. Actually its like what I have discussed with you previously, what I said about a frank attitude toward life.

Li: Is it because of the repetition in daily life that parallelism inevitable?

Y: It is unlikely. If you live a sensitive life, your ideas will change with the changing life and you will naturally adjust by yourself. Every artist’s work will be affected by the outside world. Only the artist knows whether a work is a parallel production. Artist should not take leads from their surroundings and change his or her original ideas or views on their own works. On some occasions, visitors consider such a work as a good one. But in my eyes, it is unlikely to corresponding with the artist’s real feelings.

Li: Do you think “Strange Paradise” is a good work?

Y: In my opinion, it is good. For my personal love of it, this is the first thing I produced which I consider great. Perhaps, there is nothing to the quality of this production.

Mostly, I chose it by myself, I loved it, and I carried it out.

Li: That is the influence of the thing itself on you, isn’t it?

Y: Yes, you just want to do something and then you finish it. My main idea at that time was to make a movie and, indeed, I have it done.

Li: Your earlier production, titled “Silent for Three Months” was a performance piece, was it completed before your film obsession?

Y: That was is in 1993.

Li: Your works have an honest appeal, have your works always been so earnest?

Y: I think creation in itself is an important and profound experience. What’s more, I was in an appropriate state at that time. I did not make the production with a clear purpose; I was interested and tried it out. Gradually, I experienced many very delicate emotions.

Many concepts slowly came into being as well as production was experience accumulated in those three months.

Li: Was there any relationship between this experience and the creation of “Strange Paradise?” If there is, what is the relationship?

Y: If there is any relationship, according to what I have learnt it is the importance of perseverance. This is similar to long-distance running. At the last minute, perhaps you will consider the cost and overtake the other runners.

Li: Can you still remember the times when you shooting “Strange Paradise” and what were those several main themes? The themes include forging problems and the aesthetic matters that we discussed, the bi-directional aesthetics you have talked about, and the young men’s mentality that you are concerned with.

Y: It is really hard to say that those ideas belonged to that time; that is simple. It as a little like I idealized it. I wanted to make a film, and I had done it. At that time I summed up the ways in how to realize my ideals. Actually, there are two ways to pursue ideals: one is to treat it as a pure longing, like a moon hanging in the night which can be seen, but is out of touch forever; the other is working your hardest to carry it out.

Li: When you were making this film, what were you choices in lens, were these all decided on the set?

Y: At the time there were a portion decided on the spot, but there was even a work schedule and script of about several thousand characters. But now those are not necessary.

Li: Were there many fortunate mistakes?

Y: The “fortunate mistake” is an ambiguous concept, and is mostly technique problems. I hardly call them beautiful. What you capture is different from what you visualized. When the results fell short of what we expected, I still found them to be interesting. While we were filming we also did some improvisation.

Li: As China’s contemporary art prospers, from your point of view does this work contain traces of China’s modernity?

Y: It’s impossible for me to judge. I can neither tell clearly what “modernity” is nor what “avant-garde” is. An excellent work will linger in your mind from time to time.

Li: “Refuse to Speak” is your performance art work from 1993. From 1997 on you started to made films, and since then I understand you now spend most of your time shooting films. What is your opinion on the transmission of medias and materiel during artistic creating?

Y: It’s true that as a media I like film. But this can explain creative media or its different stages. I direct films like I paint: each photo is like as a fixed part. Film records a period of time and freezes emotions onto this flowing media.

凝固的画面，流动的时间 访问人：李振华 被访人：杨福东 文字整理：姜迪

李：这个展览的名称叫《可持续幻想：媒体研究自1999到2007》。这几个线索里面，我觉得你的《陌 生天堂》是一个很重要的作品，因为从1997年开拍一直到2002年结束，是一个跨度非常大的作品，中 国艺术圈内大家很少使用胶片这种媒材。对你来说，你又怎么开始使用这种材料？你认为这种媒介能 给你带来什么呢？ 杨：其实有些不经意，也没有刻意想胶片以后会怎么样。就是学校毕业以后自己想去做一个东西，完 全拿胶片来拍，当时想法其实很简单，没有那么多说法。 李：因为这个片子成片之前，我先看到的是你在2000年的短片《嘿！后房》，因为我觉得《嘿！后 房》那个短片可能是你后来这些长篇作品，（或是说）后来作品拓展的一个根源，那个短片可能呈现 了你很多在方式、方法、还有不同角度的调度。但是看到《陌生天堂》作品的时候，我觉得可能我判 断上有一些错误。如果《陌生天堂》在1997年拍摄，你的状态又是一种什么状态？ 杨：97年的时候，在学校里接受教育，接触的东西很多是不会从兴趣出发。很多都是从当代艺术，比 如装置、行为还有从国外、从图书馆来的信息、杂志等等。对这些东西我有一些兴奋点、新鲜感，但 是自己选择做的话，就感觉电影是挺想选择的方法。虽然这个工作的工程比较大。当时始终有一个隐 约的一个出发点，就是说未必想去做一个纯故事片，大概16MM，标准的。可能会有自己的一些想法。 李：那你为什么要做这么长的一个电影，或者说不叫电影，这么长一个作品？ 杨：自然而然的。 李：时间对你不是一个线索？ 杨：自然而然的发生。而且当时的第一感觉，还是希望有一定程度，对自己来说像是个疯狂巨制。知 道为什么做了之后，就要比如说三年计划，五年计划。 李：就是你刚才说关于你的那个《陌生天堂》的技术问题，你觉得为什么会导致这样的技术问题出现 呢？ 杨：以前确实做过这些事。对那个很多东西的记忆方面、经验方面，其实对我来说更多的是零。就唯 一的经验是幻想。脑子里幻想在做什么，该怎么做。那其实没什么，很实际的问题就是没有精力。像 刚才说的那个，两个机器，本身的设置就是分比的，成反比的。拍摄片子不一样，摄影师也是第一次 拍，钱方面的问题被忽略了。拍摄的时候因为设置的不同［也因为不清楚拍摄格式］，有时候左右黑 框都进画面了。我觉得是在这个基础上，影片里还有很多焦点、虚点的问题。比如我来拍你，拍你的 特写，焦点放在那窗帘上，但是你是虚的，窗帘却是实的。 李：这不就是形成你的自我风格的开始么？ 杨：其实我倒觉得这些是错误美，错误美我觉得不应该成为标榜。 李：为什么在那个后房里面还出现“虚”呢？ 杨：后房里面的“虚”，不是我拍的。（笑） 《后房》其实焦点还好，然后可能有技术方面的原因。 当时就是觉得拍一个短片，因为资金的限制。很多工作 、人员尽量节俭。我觉得在所

谓的电影行当里面，有些是很严格的东西，你是什么位置就是什么位置，分工很清楚。无论好坏只要 胆大，电影就做出来了！ 李：你做这个片子之前，你在电影学院还进修了一段时间？那你为什么要去进修呢？ 杨：其实那时候不是去进修，就在那待过大概两个星期。因为当时没什么事，就想去听听课，其实有 点像蹭课。就这样住在乌尔善他们学生宿舍，没事儿可以旁听大课。那一段时间还挺好，会有一种无 形的逆反。老师说什么事儿都说得挺玄，天花乱坠。但是我总觉得这东西跟实际上想做的这件事儿， 还是很遥远。那时候给自己的一些经验和感觉就是，你去听别人说很多，你想做的那件事儿，那种状 态，不如自己去做一次，尽可能主动实践，三五十天，我一定要自己去拍一个作品。 李：那你当时资金是从哪来？ 杨：那时候会问很多人，因为找资金是很尴尬的事。我觉得很多人会认为做这种影像［拍电影］，是 件不靠谱的事情，大家认为它劳民伤财。很多朋友认为如果是你家里的事，身边的朋友就不可能不帮 你，主要是应付一些很紧急的事情。但是他不会支持你做这些有些漫无边际，甚至于涉及你能否还钱 的现实。这是很实际的事情。 李：你在那个影片之后等于是等了差不多三年，99年底才开始做《后房》短片吗？ 杨：那个时候拍完《陌生天堂》以后，一个很实际关于生存的问题，直接摆在眼前。拍摄《陌生天 堂》花了很多的钱。但是确实没有完成，是有点陷在那儿了，经济就成了问题。那个时候外界压力很 大，自于家庭、父母，实际生活的压力也出来了。人有时候必须妥协，再坚持的话都没用，感觉确实 当时坚持不下去。有些事情其实要马上解决，因为没有心思赚钱，现在想起来也有些不合情理。直到 不得不上班赚钱，确实这样做以后，生活就慢慢的缓过来。挣到一些钱，存着这些钱，自己的生存有 保证了。多我来说也会有另外一层含义，开启了另外一种状态。发现以前的那个‘我’确实有点像寄 生虫，把自己的理想老嫁接在周围的环境和朋友当中，寄希望别人去帮你。从来没有自己主动去做点 什么，或最起码来说对自己的生活困境做点什么。以前的我很少工作，就觉得无所谓。 当第一次看到 自己挣几千块钱工资，发现自己也可以像正常人一样去靠自己的双手，去得到一些回报。从那个时候 开始，慢慢地开始务实。 李：那我看在你的那个《陌生天堂》一开篇的时候，谈到了关于“水墨画”的这个问题，为什么会使 用这个开篇。 杨：我以前画油画。做那个记录片，当时自己一个很直接的想法，就是做一个“仿纪录片”，就是很 假的记录片。 因为那个时候的教育，包括电视上看到的，或者是在学校的教育，受到的教育都是正 面的，这些教育是从小到大，都是很标准的、很规范的，这些东西其实是你一生中享受不尽的。很简 单，小时候老师会很鼓励你好好读书，说：“书山有路勤为径，学海无涯苦作舟”。但是在年轻的某 个阶段，很多现实的状态，总想与这些不同的滋味和体会。纪录片通过四五分钟的讲述状态，传达一 个真实的状态、真实的事。包括一些评语，看国画的时候要有评语。在这个纪录片的段落里，是自己 很感兴趣的一个状态，有些“叶公好龙”。就是很多人喜欢那东西，真正看到的时候，可能未必是真 的喜欢。很多就是一种悬挂式的喜欢。 李：你上来就做这种所谓“伪”的纪录片。这个初衷又是什么呢？跟你后面的剧情发展的关系是什 么？ 杨：没有必然的联系，也不必要有什么联系。我还是想有那么一个状态在作品里，所谓的那种纪录片 里面谈到国画，谈到所谓的美学，包括就创造本身，然后其实里面有一种完美的理想在里面。就是你 认为什么是完美的，那个其实是一种铺垫，铺垫一种“一切都是很优美的”感觉，甚至是完美无瑕的 感觉。是一种非常标准的感觉。可能是“真的完美”，可能是“叶公好龙”式的完美，也可能是“南 辕北辙”式的完美。 李：从那个时候你还是想了各种各样的问题，真正到你把这个片子真正做出来，隔了那么久时间，你 认为你的目的跟你刚开始拍的时候有什么样的变化么？

杨：在我将《陌生天堂》搁置几年以后，包括在参展之前，自己才又看了几遍素材，有些即亲切又遥 远。 好像是你做出来的，但又好像是发生在很早以前的往事，也好像跟你没关系，如同另外一个人做 的作品，你确实又知道所有的细节。还有一个感觉就是制作的角度，整个片子后期基本上没动过，适 当调整了片子的质感，还是原来97年剪的版本。有时候几年之后，再处理一个作品有可能出来完全是 另外一个样子。但《陌生天堂》基本上差不多，全是97年那时候剪好的，稍微的处理就成立了。 李：你觉得《竹林七贤》的在制作与拍摄上，更多的是跟你的短片，还是跟《陌生天堂》有关联？ 杨：其实我倒觉得，对于《竹林七贤》那一系列，我自己觉得，可能不是针对一个长片或一个短片。 其实在这里面还是有一些对影像的想法和理念，慢慢的自己琢磨。 李：也有很多评论都在讲，就是说你在做的是文人电影，知识份子电影，或是知识份子影像，你是怎 么看待知识份子这个问题？ 杨：知识分子是一个很大的概念，对我来说需要去“粗”解？只能简单的理解，‘就是从前受过的一 些教育的年轻人’。调侃《陌生天堂》这个片子，像厕所里的书，当你看的时候你翻它几页，这种文 人电影，这种状态，其实有点就像那本书，取得了厕所的隐私和性权力的理解。 李：你后来从97年开始到后来很多影片，你的使用胶片材质都比你别的材质的好看,你知道为什么吗？ 杨：从前有一个故事，有一个小孩，家里很穷，家里人让他学书法，小孩不好好写，他家里人花了很 贵的钱，买很贵的宣纸，他很心疼那个纸。然后他就非常认真。胶片就是觉得比较奢侈，要珍惜这种 奢侈，可能还有对这种材质的偏爱，当用这种材质的时候，包括摄影机的声音一响，我就会有感觉。 当用DV来做，就是不同的状态，心理感受完全不同。电影的胶片还有机器的部分,它像人一样，有呼 吸。而数字的感觉比较冷，有点像‘物’的感觉。两者的区别很大！ 李：长篇的作品你还会再做吗？ 杨：有机会一定要做，很实际的问题，因为是要使用胶片，我也有着很长远的计划。 李：你觉得你怎么归类这些作品？刚才我们聊了很多，关于这种媒介上，还有这种技术上，指标上使 用了大部分电影的方法，你觉得你做的，从你初衷上讲，它更像一个电影是更像一个录像？ 杨：我觉得，它作为一个影像存在的。不用特别刻意的把它划分在哪个艺术类型。用胶片来做的这一 些作品，你不能说它就是电影，或者说它不是艺术作品。 李：那么材质和方法的不同又导致了什么呢？ 杨：比如说，不能把DV当电影来拍，有它一定的道理。DV是磁的，不方便剪接，其实这种材料，提供 了很多不一样的拍摄方式。要用胶片的话，那就是另外一套系统。但是最主要还是想法。 李：你怎么看待邱志杰对你的判断？因为邱志杰有文章上写到过你，关于你的影像作品中的模式问 题，经常出现的几个人的模式，有人坐在莲池上，有人看着远方等等。就是说你怎么看待这种审美上 的重复？ 杨：他谈这个理解，是一种初步感觉，就是说很多东西从表面看，然后从形式上看，在模式的问题上 其实是准确的。就光看影像呢，我不太喜欢类型化的归类。一个艺术家的作品，是需要思考的问题， 就是怎么继续做作品的问题，对我来说也比较重要。还是“平行作品”的问题。 李：你的《陌生天堂》那个作品是你，是你对某一个时段的一个回忆吗？ 杨：它其实谈不上对某一个时段的回忆。就是这样的，可以是从一个感觉针对一拨人的状态，就是有 感而发。

李：那是自述呢？还是观察？ 杨：其实它里面也不存在标准的自述。很多就是它里头罗列的那些叙述状态，年轻人想去做事情。然 后他受到了外界、社会的影响，这些压力他怎么去解决、面对。 其实这也是很普遍的表述，包括自我 的人生阶段，一种刚刚从学校出来，要面对社会的普遍心理状态。 李：选景应该也是在杭州吧？ 杨：因为自己很熟悉那里的环境。在杭州生活了四年左右，对很多东西还有感觉。从说这些方面来说 的话，我觉得《陌生天堂》这个影片，自己的情感还是在里面的。 李：很多人的作品都带有自传式风格。从你作品里看这种方向就不那么明显好像又像是你的自述，又 像是你在观察某个状态，你觉得这种状态对你来说会一直这样下去吗？或者说这样做下去对你来说， 继续现在这个状态的理由又是什么？就是从《陌生天堂》到《竹林七贤》，这种状态对你来说是不是 有必要再继续？或者说它继续的理由又是什么？ 杨：自述也好，包括近距离观察。作品很多部分来自于很真实的自我人生的认知。 其实前一段跟你还 讨论过，就是说对生活的真诚态度。 李：因为生活状态的重复，难免还会出现平行线？ 杨：未必就会有平行线，对生活有感觉的话，脑袋里头有些想法也会跟着改变，会自我会调整。每一 个艺术家的作品，都是会获得其他的外界的影响。只有自己知道它是否是平行作品。不能因为外面说 某个机会改变初衷，到对自己作品的看法，有时候观者认为这是一个好作品，我觉得未必对应艺术家 自我的真实感受。 李：那你觉得《陌生天堂》是好作品么？ 杨：对我来说，是好作品。因为我的个人情结，是自己做的第一件自己认为很伟大的一件事。可能跟 这个作品的好与坏无关。很可能更多是自己，选择了最喜欢做的，然后把它做成了。 李：这事件本身，也就是事件本身对你的影响？ 杨：对，就是你想做的一件事，然后把它做成了。主要是自己当时想拍个电影，然后就把它做完了。 李：你之前，“三个月不说话”的作品。行为的那个作品。是在你的电影情结之前么？ 杨：那是在1993年。 李：你的作品可能有些叫真，你的创作一直这么叫真吗？ 杨：我觉得本身是一次挺重要的深刻体验，在当时一想状态上又特别适合。当时不是特别明确，把它 刻意的当成作品来做。自己觉得挺新鲜感的尝试。然后很多的生活体验在日常生活中，就是很多、很 细腻的感情。有一些观点在慢慢的在形成。三个月的这种生活体验也是慢慢的。 李：你觉得当时你这个体验跟你做《陌生天堂》又有什么关系呢？或者有没有联系？ 杨：联系的话，有一个感觉吧，就是做事的时候重在坚持，就跟跑长跑似的，可能还在琢磨付出的代 价，可能一刹那间你顶上去了。 李：还能回忆当时你在拍《陌生天堂》的时候，你比较关注的几个重要的线索是什么？就是说刚才我 们说的作假的问题、审美的问题。还有你谈到审美的那种双向性。关于你关注的这个年轻人的这个状 态。

杨：其实也不好说。当时属于当时的想法，是非常简单的。就有点像把这件事情理想化了。想拍这么 一个电影，完成这个理想。那时候自己也总结过，如何实现理想状态。就是实际上对理想的追求可能 会有两种方法。一种方法就是可能是你这辈子，把理想永远高高的挂在天上，月亮一样，你时时地看 着它，理想成为憧憬。另外一种就是把理想给圈上，感觉现实中自己跟自己较劲。 李：当时你做这个片子的时候，镜头的选择上你有没有画分镜头脚本，还是在现场调整？ 杨：当时确实有一部分。会想到这一方面应该是什么样，那一方面应该是什么样？然后哪个画面应该 接入，就是说具体的对分镜头的处理。这些都在脑子里面有。当时甚至还有工作的进度表和一个几千 字的剧本，现在不用了。 李：你的错误美出现多吗？ 杨：错误美是一个模糊的概念，更多的是技术的错误，我还不太认可它是一种美。设想的东西，拍的 和你当时偶然抓拍的不同，我觉得这种落差感是有的。包括现在拍摄，可能现场变化的、即兴的也会 拍。即兴的拍以后，在最后观片的时候，要选择素材的时候，可能大量即兴的片断被选中。有时候既 定的东西，不如即兴来得感官。会出现落差，我觉得还是要感觉，拍摄的时候也准备好的改变原计 划。 李：因为现在中国当代艺术很红火，你觉得如果从你的角度看，这个作品存在这种中国的当代性吗？ 杨：我不可能去判断！我分不清什么是“当代性”。就是什么是“前卫”的。好的作品就是能时不时 的让你挂念。 李： 93年的行为作品“拒绝说话”。97年开始拍电影，之后我觉得大部分基本都在做电影方面的事 情。你怎么看待艺术创作在媒材上的转换？ 杨：喜欢电影这个媒介，那没法解释创作媒介和阶段的不同，可能我在导演一幅绘画，一张照片就是 一个定格，一帧画面的定格。无非就是一张照片一样把这个时间段，赋之感情把它凝固在这个流动的 媒介之中。

Individual Experiences Within Regional Studies Interviewer: Li Zhenhua Interviewee: Zheng Yunhan Translator: Lee Ambrozy Li: When did you start to engage in contemporary arts?

Zheng: My first contemporary artwork was the short video “Sing With Me” made in 2003.

Even before that, while I was studying at the Fine Art’s Preparatory school, I really liked contemporary arts. After graduation, I got to know a lot people in the field, and also had some relevant experiences. All these people and experiences are completely different from what I had learned about fine art in school, especially in the use of materials and the visual language. To me, contemporary art has a magnetic power because it overthrows the many established norms.

Li: Is there any connection between your two short video works “Sing With Me” and “The Jixi Coal Miners Investigation?”

Zheng: To some extent, “Sing With Me” can be taken as temporary link with my childhood experience. It’s more or less a stimulant to me. “The Jixi Coal Miners Investigation” is, in many aspects and to some extent, a continuation of “Sing With Me.” “Sing With Me” is more personal in that it employs subjective expression, while “Jixi” provides more comprehensive information about real life. The whole video is based on a framework composed of real facts about time, geographic information and with a strong sense of social responsibility. In creating and presenting the video, the subjective influences such as the artistic medium are minimized wherever possible.

Li: What kind of influences are you referring to?

Zheng: I mean the influence of the artistic training I received in the past. With my previous education, inevitably I become accustomed to many established norms and ways of thinking. Even thought I try so hard to resist their influence, they sill exist in my subconsciousness.

For instance, whenever I picked up my camera, I would find myself looking for the most sensational image. If I see a very interesting scene on street, but the light is not good enough to make a satisfactory picture I might wait for hours before I can take a satisfactory one. By doing this, I obtain a very beautiful picture, but the contents of the picture do not reflect the real world. Manipulating these pictures with technical tools might also mislead our observations in a reproduction of the scene. Therefore, in “The Jixi Coal Miners Investigation” I tried to minimize all these established norms. Forget about the time factor. Forget about making poses before the camera. What I wanted was to reproduce reality. Of course, I wouldn’t be able to resist my sub-consciousness. I just pick up the camera and shoot, which is different from others.

In creating an artwork, many artists emphasize the importance of ideology, which strengthens the inner power of an artwork. However, in my works, the influence of ideology is exactly what I try to avoid and minimize. One’s subjectivity will have powerful impact on an artwork’s creation and its presentation, which will inevitably lead to a distortion of reality.

I had no particular intention when I created “The Jixi Coal Miners Investigation,” I was even not sure about what form of expression it would take. For me, it could have been anything, a movie, an installation, or a documentary. What I really care about is the event itself: what happened in the past, what is happening now, and what will happen in the future?

Li: What perspective is artwork your artwork coming from?

Zheng: The perspective problem is a complicated one. I’ve been mulling over the Jixi phenomenon in my mind for a long time. I spent my childhood in Jixi, and as I grew older, my opinion of the same issue has also changed. I myself do not resist the change, or you could say I cannot control this change. To put it simply, the change is a transformation from the subjective to the objective. What I try to achieve now is mere “observation.” I believe observing is from the perspective of recording or to restore reality.

Li: How do you look at the industrialization of the mineworker and the mining community?

Zheng: The process of industrialization is already over. The process from coal’s first discovery to coal mining is that of the process of coalmine industrialization. Of course, the process has its different phases. As early as China’s Warring States Period, minorities have been living in these areas. In the 1960s, coal began to be mined systematically, and residents became miners. As mining technology become more and more advanced, the industrialization of the coal region also changes, from primitive mining in caves, to modern machine mining. Throughout the process, technology and mining conditions changed a lot, while the miners were the only group that did not change much. When mining technology was not as advanced as today, miners’ living conditions were no doubt miserable, in some cases, even inhumane. During the anti-Japanese war, Jixi was occupied by Japan. The mining methods back then was half-manpower and half machine power. When there was a fire damp explosion, the miners would not be rescued, but buried underground. To put it simply, in the event of a fire damp explosion, the explosion would cause other materials to ignite and the temperature in the mine was very high. (For instance, there are many woodmade pillars and a railway system for carrying the coal through the mines.) When there is a fire damp explosion, many rails became molten metal under the extremely high temperature. During the Japanese occupation, the Japanese would seal the mine entrance during any explosion, so that the fire would extinguish itself when the oxygen ran out. This inhumane mining approach is a portrait of the tragic life of the miners.

Even today, the fatality rate among mine workers remains very high, even after all the economic development and advances in civilization.

I still remember one day when I was a child, one day I saw the minefield full of rescue crews on my way to school, just in front of our home, there were many firefighters and emergency vehicles. I was just a child, all the rescue crew wore some astronaut-like orange clothes and carried bizarre equipment, it was something different, but the grown-ups all looked serous, and there were sirens everywhere. When I got to school, there were few students and I thought my classmates had skipped class; I understood later that there was a fire damp explosion in the minefield with many casualties, many whom were families or relatives of my classmates. They all went to the mine entrance to wait for any updates about the accident. In a mining community like ours, most people know each other. With an accident like this (although it is not the accident with the greatest number of casualties), the entire mining community was grieved for a long time.

In my memory, during that time even the air smelled sorrowful. While we are enjoying the

convenience that electricity has brought us, many miners are sacrificing their lives, and others are taking the risk with very low salary. After a day’s work, their faces are dark, with white teeth and simple and honest smiles on their faces. They don’t like to be photographed, since they think they are ugly. But actually, they are the most respectful at that time.

Before industrialization, humans were close to nature in most of their work and life. Human relations were also simpler and more sincere. Human beings do not possess much destructive power toward the nature, while nature has much control over human being.

Under such circumstances, harmony between people is a necessity to deal with challenges from rough natural environments. However, after industrialization, human beings are incorporated into the system of industrialization, and became a major factor fueling the process of industrialization. As a result, human being started to pursue materialistic interests, human relations become more and more apathetic and the nature of humanity started to change.

Industrialization itself is very aggressive. The process of industrialization is a process of consuming natural resources at an unprecedented rate. Therefore, the natural environment was the most effected. These two hundred some years since the beginning of industrialization mark the period where the natural environment was the most damaged in the entire history of human development. Even Japan, an island country, experienced sand storms from the continent this year. My father told me that when he first came to the mining community, the grass was taller than even the people, and he had to arm himself if he was on a night shift because there were wolves around the area. Now, even a single bird is a rare sight here.

Li: What kind of impact do you think the media has had on you?

Zheng: It may be possible to invite the viewers to Jixi, or bring the whole of Jixi to Beijing. But can I take the audience to the Jixi ten years ago, or bring Jixi back to Beijing?

The special characteristics of the media help me a lot in constructing a timeframe, which enables the artwork to be observed directly and easily. It makes it possible to deliver multi-dimensional information with various factors including time, photos, videos, stories etc. All the factors are incorporated within this single media and develop into a single unit.

Further more, adding on the interaction with the viewers, their relationship to the viewer becomes more meaningful.

Li: Could you please tell us something about your family?

Zheng: My father was born in 1947 in Chengzihe of Jixi. In 1965 he was enrolled into the Coal Mine School run by the Mining Bureau. In 1968, he graduated and worked as a mine technician. In 1969, he was injured and was transferred to study in Jixi’s Medical School.

He worked in local hospital until his retirement in 2002.

My father is a typical community doctor (in my opinion). He worked in the department of epidemics prevention. It’s my impression that he can’t really treat any particular disease, but it seems that he knows about every kind of disease. Because of his job, I spent a lot time in the hospital. For some time, I was either in school or in the hospital. My classmate always said that I smelled like the hospital.

In the hospital where my father worked, I learn a word called “humane rescue.” One day, while I was playing with other kids in the hospitals, all the nurses in the hospital rushed outside for something. We followed to see what had happened. At the gate of hospital, there was a truck, typically used to carry coal. Down from the truck, the nurses carried

several miners who were covered in blood. I realized something must have happened in the coal mine. Back then there was only one operation room in the hospital, so my father’s office had to be converted into an operation room as well. One doctor, who was always joking around, looked very serious then. He cleared out everything in the office in no time, then tables were brought into and sanitized, and the injured miner was stripped and cleaned.

I was peeking in from around the corner, and when I saw the knife cut into the chest of the miner, I thought blood would spurt out as I had seen in movies, but it only came a little from the cut. Then the nurse noticed me and closed the curtain. Later, when I asked my father whether the miner survived, my father said the organs of the miner were all destroyed. It’s just a “humane rescue.” Later, four out of the five miners died.

For a long time, I thought the term “humane rescue” was only for those who were bound to die.

My mother was born in 1949 in Liaomao of Jixi. In 1968, she was sent to work in the rural areas and became a political officer in her unit. Using the jargon of the time, you could say her “politically ideology was correct.” In 1973, she was enrolled into the Normal School of the Jixi Mining Bureau. After graduation, she worked in a high school as an English teacher until she retired in 1993. It was a bitter time for my mother. For six years, the Jixi Mining Bureau didn’t pay any of their employees’ salary. Even during the Chinese New Year, they just arranged a bag of flour and a bag of sugar as a monthly wage for each family. If you didn’t pick them up, you were no longer entitled to the wage anymore. Back then, my younger brother and I were all in school. My mother had to go out working in other place to support our family and she suffered a lot. For a family which depended purely on wages, it’s unthinkable to spend several years without any stable income. For ten years, my mother worked in various places in Jixi, Jidong, Haerbin and Beijing.

Li: How did interpersonal relationships change during this period? How do you perceive these changes? Confronted with the transformation of community relationship and social interactions, how did local people make their own choices?

Zheng: I think there were two phases of change. The first was the period of economic reform, and the other was that six-year period when workers didn’t get any wages. The impact of economic reform upon Jixi was far less profound than the coastal area, but its impact on people’s mentality is evident. To me, the impact of the six-year period of no wages was far more profound. I’d say the impact was overwhelming. It completely overthrew the traditional idea of having a stable job and being paid regularly. Many people had to leave to try their luck. In this period, the general living environment was also greatly influenced by a high crime rate. Men resorted to violent crimes, while many women went in for prostitution. Relationships between people became chaotic and disastrous.

In the past, whenever we made a good meal, dumplings for instance, we would share some with our neighbors. Our neighbors would do the same for us. If anything happened to a family, nobody would hesitate to help. But if you were to take the same situation today, if anything happened to a family others might take it as something they could make fun of. People have become more and more apathetic towards each other.

Many people looked for new life directions out of the deep dissatisfaction or even desperation surrounding their living environment. There were even cases in which the entire family relied on their female members who moved to the South to work as prostitutes. Every time they came back from the South, they would invite friends and relatives to a dinner party.

Li: What did the transformative process of your subjective to objective perspective mean

to you?

Zheng: I spent my entire childhood and my youth in Jixi. When I left Jixi and came to Beijing, I had a completely different perspective. When I went back to Jixi, I could look at it clearly and objectively. But my emotional attachment to Jixi will be always there.

Therefore, in the process of creating this artwork, I had multiple identities, as investigator, as artist, as thinker, as photographer, as cameraman, as son, classmate, etc. Sometimes in the process of investigation and creation, the transformation between different identities happens accidentally. Once, when I tried to take a picture of a miner who just got off work, he kept staring at me. I found it interesting and kept on shooting. Suddenly, he called me by my name, and I was totally confused. Then I realized that he was my classmate in elementary school. Of course, I could not continue my work, and we sat there chatting for a long time. After so many years, he already has a family to take care of… His face was full of wrinkles and black grime and I couldn’t believe he was my classmate.

Li: You talked a lot about your personal experiences, your emotional attachment to Jixi.

How do you show these factors in your works?

Zheng: In the work, many special motion sensors are installed, which will be triggered by the viewers’ actions. I achieve it through the resulting random control and interaction of multi-dimensional elements. Actually, in presenting my work, even I myself cannot interfere with or control its content. Everything occurs in a random fashion.

Li: If it was without structure, how would you describe the experience?

Zheng: The messages in the work and its interactivity with the viewers include audio, video, and visual––are all multi-dimensional. During these interactions, all the facts and clues are constantly interfered. The intervention does not come from the viewers or the artist, but from the interaction between the viewers and the artist. The viewers and I, in our specific circumstances, are all creating different reality with our actions. I prefer to perceive and apperceive a multiple reality. The fragments of reality, the perspectives and distances, and the constantly restored scenes are just a reproduction of our memories, recollections or even a sporadic fantasy.

Li: Do you think what your work presents is merely regional? Is there any limit to that?

Zheng: Jixi might just be a tiny place not worth mentioning. It is located in a remote mountain area, or simply where coal is mined. It might just be a small place that does not deserve any special attention, but you cannot deny that many real things happened there. The experience of Jixi is typical of many places, even though it is a small town that could be easily neglected in a huge country like China.

In Jixi, fossils of mammoths from the glacial period were found, and remnants of human activity can be traced back to thousands of years ago. Even in modern times, many important battles were fought in Jixi’s “Tiger Head Fort” including the Qing Dynasty’s struggles against the Russian army, the fight of the Northeastern United Anti-Japanese Forces against the Japanese invaders, land reform, and even the last battle of World War II happened there. It seems that so much that transpired here in Jixi is connected to the outside world. Of course, Jixi has its own characteristic climate, geography and natural environment. Before the Cultural Revolution, the exploitation of Beidahuang (the northern frontier) was a huge event. One of the key areas of Beidahuang is Jixi’s Mishan Mountain.

Many people know about Beidahuang, but only those who have experienced it know what “Beidahuang” really means. What happened in the past still has a great impact on our life

today. What is happening to those and what is about to happen? All these questions can help us to really understand ourselves. If we only start to look for them when we really need them, we may find them disappeared.

My mother is a retired teacher from a state-owned enterprise. Compared to those who retire from ordinary public schools, their pension is far less. Therefore, 2,000 retired teachers including my mother, tried to appeal to the city government, later to the provincial government and eventually to Beijing. The problem is still left unsolved. I once asked my mother, “Although we are not a rich family, I don’t really need that much. Why bother and get yourself into trouble?” My mother said, “What we want is justice. We devoted our entire life to the Revolution. Why can’t they just implement the national policy for us?” I once accompanied these teachers in their appeal to Beijing. At the gate of Bureau of Letters and Calls, I witnessed an old man in his 60s being dragged out from the crowd by the police and sent back to where he came from. I almost broke into tears. If that were my mother being dragged out, I’d fight the police to death. Issues like this have gone beyond Jixi. The locations became Jixi, Haerbin and Beijing, and the characters are now teachers, retired teachers, local officials, officials of central government, etc. Behind it are even more factors. What I saw is just an event among other regional events. When all these events come together, the similarity among them create a bigger issue beyond the region. I didn’t intent to emphasize the confrontations in Jixi in particular. To me, Jixi is both too familiar and at the same time too foreign. What is more important is the factor of time. For a big issue like this, a single individual will not have a significant influence.

Especially when I incorporate all the historical elements into the work, as an individual, I am like dust in the air.

Maybe this is what we call the “locality” of a work. It comes from both my familiarity with the place where I grow up and a sense of gradual alienation. Being a son with the experience of appealing to higher authority, taking historical factors into consideration, I find there is a contradiction and it is also a great challenge to observe all these objectively.

Li: What the media presents is often already distorted. How would you comment on the distortion of reality during this process?

Zheng: Whether the media can deliver the information accurately depends on what the media chooses to present, since it’s impossible for the media to present everything about real life. The transformation process between reality and the media itself is a debate and clarification of one’s value system. We have to learn to make our choice. Before doing that, we must be sure of what we really want to emphasize. To achieve that, we have to make compromises and sacrifice other information. Distortion is relative compared to social reality. I even doubt the existence of the “true fact.” As I mentioned above, the truth itself has different meanings, and can be perceived from different angles. We can reach the truth from every angle, at the same time we skip over other facts. We should be cautious about unilateral and simplified understanding of existence, because reality is far more complicated than what we can perceive. What the media may present is only a simplified reality. It seems that anyone can discover a different version of the truth. I think that the intervention of the media is the real distortion.

Li: What makes you continue on with these works? Why it is necessary?

Zheng: Any artwork has something to do with social function. One’s experiences demand continuality and I want to investigate the structure, function, and norms of a society in social relationships and behavior from the perspective of social science. Through observing the origin, transformation, experiences and social structure of a particular region, I

try to explore the relationship between different sectors in society.

This investigation involves a series of documentaries and research regarding nationality, social class, gender, family structure, the relationship between individuals and community, historic events as well as the transformation of resident’s economic condition and psychology.

The purpose of the whole process is to find out where we come from, and where we are going. The key is to understand what we already know from memory and what we don’t know yet. In other words, this is the Jixi of our memory as well as the real Jixi. It makes it possible to conduct research from both the perspective of social science and individual psychology.

Li: In creating the work, how was your identity changed?

Zheng: In the process, my memory departed from my experiences. One was in Beijing, and the other is in Jixi. When I went back to Jixi, everything became so natural, since a big part of myself belonged there. I remember that in 2003, when I tried to make a video of the Zhangxin Minefield, I was mistaken for a journalist and was detained by the minefield guards. When the policemen tried to interrogate me, I said I was a local and I told them my father’s name. They soon confirmed my identity and said, “Shoot whatever you want to.

We’re both old men from the mine after all.” I was really touched by that. Of course, I had had enough of local bureaucrats. But as someone who was born in Jixi, but lives in Beijing, my observation and reflections are always dynamic.

Li: What has this work brought to the local social and natural environment?

Zheng: As an individual, I can’t do much for them. I am just conducting research and I take it as my job. We live in a complicated system, with lives in different forms existing in different ways. They compete against each other while depending on each other, creating an environment with precise details resulting from a long period of evolution. Everything in evolution follows a certain track, and I am just a singular point during this process.

In the next step of my work, I will focus on the local environment, especially the reconstruction and design of local households. Of course, I’m not sure whether I will be able to achieve all of this.

地域性研究中的个人经验 访谈人：李振华 被访人：郑云瀚

李：你什么时候开始做当代艺术的？ 郑：2003年开始拍摄第一个短片作品《跟我唱》，之前在美院附中的时候就很喜欢当代艺术，毕业后 接触了很多当代艺术有关联的东西和人，这些信息与我以前学习的美术知识有着很多的不同，尤其是 材料的运用、语言的表现等等...。当代艺术对我个人来说非常的有吸引力，打破了很多原有的固定模 式。 李：短片作品《跟我唱》和《鸡西调查》有什么关联性？ 郑：《跟我唱》更多的是对我同年记忆的短暂触摸，算是一个小小的刺激。《鸡西调查》在某些方面 是《跟我唱》的一个延续。但是从现实意义上来讲它们又是完全不同的，《跟我唱》更多的是一个主 观意识的表现，自我的成分很大。《鸡西调查》是以相对全面的信息，是以现实生活为线索，是以时 间线索、地理线索和人文意识线索为基础构成的计划。在作品的呈现与创作过程中尽可能的忽略主观 因素，美术和艺术形态对作品本身的影响。 李：你指的影响是什么？ 郑：我自己经历过长期的美术训练，这种训练不可避免的让人产生某些固定的思考形态或意识形态。 即使刻意的抛弃这种影响也无法摆脱长期训练的过程中所产生的潜在意识。 就象我拿起相机的时候就 不自觉的寻找最具有美感的镜头。如在路上看见一个十分有趣的景象，但是这个时候的光线并不能完 全突出景致，那么我可能就会拿着相机在这里等，等到光线满意为止，这时我获得了一张很好看的照 片，但是这样的镜头所反映出来的并不是真正的现实。单纯的运用技术塑造这些片断会误导我们对这 个地区的观察与再现，所以在《鸡西调查》里面我尽可能的降低这些固有的因素，抛弃挑选镜头的时 间，抛弃要求对象摆设造型的时间，尽可能真实的再现现实。当然我并不拒绝这种潜在意识，因为我 举起相机直接就拍也会其他人不同。 艺术家在创作的过程中经常着重突出意识形态的内容和现象，这 样可以增加作品内在的本质力量。但是在这个作品中意识形态的影响力恰恰是我要避免或者降低的， 主观形态对作品的形成到呈现都会产生影响，这种影响会直接导致作品属性的偏差或变形。 《鸡西调 查》这个作品在创作当初的时候就没有具体的目的，也没有最终确定它的表现形态。对我来说它可以 是任意的形态，可以是电影、可以是装置、可以是文献档案，我所关心和在意的是它本身，已经发生 的、现在的和将来的。 李：你创作的视角是什么？ 郑：视角的问题比较复杂。因为这个题材我已经关注了很久，我的少年时期就是在鸡西度过的，看待 同一问题的角度是随着年龄的增长而发生变化的，我自己并不拒绝这种变化或者说我没有办法控制这 种变化。简单的讲：是主观到客观。不过我现在尽量作到的是平视，平视是纪录工作或纪录片还原真 实的角度。 李：你怎么看待矿工与矿区的工业化过程？ 郑：这个过程是过去时的经历，在发现煤炭到开采的过程基本上就是矿区工业化的过程。当然，这个 过程是有阶段性的。春秋战国时期就有少数民族在这一地区生活繁衍，一九零六年这里就已经开始开 采煤炭，这时主角就由居民转换为矿工了。矿区的工业化是伴随着开采技术的进步而变化的，从最早 的洞穴式的原始的采煤方法到今天的机械化开采，矿工始终是唯一的没有变化的群体，变化的仅仅是 技术和条件而已。在采煤技术没有形成工业化的时候，矿工的生活无疑是悲惨的甚至是没有人性的。 抗战时期的鸡西是日本人的占领区，矿工的开采方式是原始开采加半工业化的模式，如果井下发生瓦 斯爆炸的时候对矿工的救助方式就是活埋。简单讲就是瓦斯爆炸的时候会产生大量的可燃烧气体，这

些气体会将井下的其他物质点燃形成很高的温度（如：井下采煤要用很多木头做立柱支撑，用小标号 的铁轨做罐车的移动轨道）有的时候在高温区域连铁轨都会燃烧成铁水。所以日本统制时期，发生瓦 斯爆炸时的直接将井下的洞口堵死，这样井下燃烧气体在耗尽氧气的同时也就自然会熄灭了。这种完 全背离人性的开采方法和制度是矿工悲惨生活的真实写照。 即使是物质生活和精神生活已经比较发达 的今天，矿工的死亡率依然还是很高。 记得在我小时候，有次早晨上学，路上全是矿山救护人员，我 们家的门口全是消防救护车，那时侯小，不懂事，跟着救护队的人，乱跑（救护队的人穿的跟太空服 一样的衣服是橘红色的，还背着很多的特种设备，很新鲜），可是大人们一脸的紧张，矿上的喇叭里 面时不时的播放警报的声音，到了学校以后发现班上没有多少同学，还以为别人跟我一样逃课出去玩 了，后来才知道那时候矿上发生了瓦斯爆炸，死了很多人，很多都是同学的家属和亲戚，他们全都去 矿上的出矿口等待死亡的通知去了。矿上就是这样的，因为矿很小，拐弯抹角的大多都互相认识，如 果有矿工出了事儿，很多人都要去看看、问问什么的，那次一下死了那么多的人（不过不是死亡人数 最多的一次）还是很少见的，所以很长时间内全矿都处在悲伤之中， 在我的记忆里，那段时间，连空 气中都充满了伤感的味道。在我们享受便捷的电力条件时有很多矿工拿着微薄的工资为此献出生命。 下班之后黑黑的脸，白白的牙齿，憨厚的笑容，他们不让拍照，因为他们自卑觉得难看，其实那时侯 他们真的很灿烂。 在工业化之前，无论是生产还是生活大部分都是十分接近自然，人与人之间的关系 也是十分简单淳朴。人面对自然没有那么强烈的破坏性反过来自然对人具有很强的约束力，在这样的 条件下人与人之间必须要和谐统一，否则无法应付自然环境的多变。但是工业化以后，人被自然的囊 括进工业化的体系之内，转而变成推动工业化进程的主要因素。因为需求，人在工业化的体系内不断 的追求利益追求物质使人与人之间的关系变的冷漠，人性开始发生改变。 工业化本身就具有很强的侵 略性，工业化的过程也是快速消耗自然资源的过程。所以工业化首先影响的就是自然环境。从前工业 化开始直到今天，这短短两百多年是人类发展过程中自然环境被破坏最严重的时期。就连日本这样的 岛国，今年也遭遇了从内陆刮出去的沙尘暴。听父亲讲他刚来我们矿的时候，矿上的荒草比人都高， 晚上上夜班的话手里要拿着家伙，因为晚上会有狼。但是现在呢？连山雀都已经是很希罕的了。 李：你觉得媒体手段对你作品的影响是什么？ 郑：也许我可以将观者扔到鸡西，或者将鸡西整个搬到北京让大家来看，但是我能将观众搬到十年前 的鸡西吗？或者将十年前的鸡西搬到北京吗？媒体特有的属性对于我的作品在时间线索上的构成具有 很多的帮助。使作品的成分更加的直观以及具有更多的可读性。信息的传达有时间、图片、影像、故 事、等等....是立体的呈现。这些不同的元素可以无机的统一在媒体这个环境里面，作为一个整体 生 长。而通过观众的互动参与又使这些元素与观者之间的关系变的更加丰富。 李：能不能谈谈你的家庭情况？ 郑：我的父亲1947年出生在鸡西城子河，1965进入鸡西矿务局煤炭学校，1968参加工作以后是个井下 技术工人，69年受工伤，80年在鸡西市卫生学校进修学习后在医院工作，2002年退休至今。 我的父亲 是典型的赤脚医生（我自己认为），因为他负责传染病防疫部门。在我的印象中父亲并不能治疗什么 特别的病症，但是他好像什么病症都能侃。因为他的原因也使我对医院的印象非常的深刻。那时侯基 本上要么混在医院要么混在学校，同学都说我的身上总是带者消毒水的味道。 在我爸爸那儿的医院我 学会了一个词叫“人道性抢救”，那天我跟几个其他医生的子弟在医院的院子里玩，全院的医生护士 全都非常紧张的动起来，我们几个小孩也都跟着看热闹，一个装煤的大卡车停在医院的门口，他们从 车上卸下几个全身都是血的矿工，我知道肯定是井下出事了，医院只有一个手术室没有办法作这么多 人的手术，父亲的办公室被征用了，有个大夫平时老是嘻嘻哈哈的但是那个时候真的非常的酷，面无 表情进到办公室里面没用半分钟就把屋里所有的东西全都仍到了外面，桌子被拼起来搭上朔料布洒上 消毒水，矿工被抬到上面拖光了衣服擦洗了，我在窗外的缝隙里面偷偷的看着，手术刀沿着那个矿工 的胸腔缓缓的划开，当时我以为会象电影里面一样有血喷发出来，但是血却是慢慢的沿着手术刀划开 的缝隙渗出来，接着小护士发现了我，把窗帘的小缝隙拉上了，我没有看到后面的手术。我问父亲那 个人怎么样了，父亲说其实那个人当时就剩一口气了，内脏全碎了，大出血，抢救仅仅是人道性抢救 而已，五个人里面死了四个，只有一个活了下来。 “人道性抢救”这个词在很长时间里我都认为是给 已经被判死亡的人准备的。 我母亲1949年出生在鸡西柳毛乡，1968年下乡，是连队的指导员，按照 当时的说法就是政治思想好，1973年在鸡西矿务局师范学校学习，毕业后在中学做英语教师，93年退 休。那时侯是我母亲最为辛苦的阶段，当时我们鸡西矿务局连续6年没有发放工资，过年的时候每家每 户仅仅发放一袋白面一袋白糖就权当做一个月的工资发了，不领的话也算你开过工资了，那时侯我和 弟弟都在上学，母亲为了我们外出打工经历了很多地方也吃了很多的苦。对于一个靠工资收入生活的

家庭而言连续几年不开工资实在是有些痛苦。鸡东、鸡西、哈尔滨、北京等等，很多地方都留下过我 母亲打工的脚印，整整十年的时间。 李：当地人文环境变化最大的是什么时候，你是怎么看待的？邻里关系到与大的人文环境的改变，当 地人的选择又是什么？ 郑：人文意识上面最大的变化有两个时期，改革开放算一个还有就是连续6年没有发工资的那会儿。改 革开放对鸡西的影响远远没有象沿海地区那样深刻。但是人文的波动还是比较明显的。对我而言连续 6年没有发工资的那段时间对当地的影响应该是深刻的，甚至是彻底的冲击。打破了固有的上班下班按 时领取工资的规律与法则，很多人被迫出去自谋生路。当然那一时期也是当地生活环境波动很大的时 期，各种刑事案件层出不穷，很多男的出去打打杀杀，女的出去做皮肉生意。人与人之间的关系变的 混乱没有秩序。 记得以前，我们家如果做什么好吃的，（如饺子什么的）都会给邻居们送去一些，让 他们也尝尝。同样的如果邻居某家作了点好吃的也会给我们送点过来。谁家有大事小情的全都是邻居 门跑前跑后的帮忙。但是如果放到现在的话，谁家出了状况的话会被大多数人当作笑话在背后调侃， 人与人之间的关系已经变的非常淡漠了。 正是由于对自身生活状态的不满以及绝望迫使很多人走向了 生活的其他方向，甚至有女在南方卖淫，全家基本上都靠她在南方的收入来维系生计，每次回家的时 候都要宴请四邻及亲友。 李：你关注的视角从主观到客观的过程对你来说意味着什么？ 郑：我的少年时期是在鸡西度过的，但是当我跳出鸡西来到北京的时候可以说角色与角度就已经发身 了变化。当我再度回到并且关注鸡西必须客观与直接。但是我很难摆脱鸡西对于我来说固有的情感与 情结。而在整个创作过程中我个人身份始终是在变化的过程，调查者、艺术家、思考者、摄影师、摄 像师、儿子、同学等等身份，在当地进行调研和创作的过程中，角色的转换有很多时候是偶然的。有 一次拍一个矿工下班，他盯着我看，而我也觉得这个眼神意味深长，不知不觉就一通拍，突然他叫我 的名字，把我立刻弄晕了，发现他原来是我的小学同学，拍摄也没有办法进行了，就坐在那儿聊了很 长时间，而我这个同学也已经结婚生子背负起了家庭重任。我真的不敢相信他是我的同学。生活的磨 砺已经早早的变成了脸上的皱纹和着煤炭的黑。 李：谈了很多你的个人经历，你和鸡西的关系，你的作品将如何呈现？ 郑：通过观众的流动触碰设置好的多个感应器对素材的无序控制。运用多元素的互动方式呈现，实 际上在作品呈现的过程中包括我自己在内都无法对内容进行干预或者控制。一切都是无序的进行。 李：如果是无序的，你怎么形容这样的体验？ 郑：本身存在的信息和观众之间的关系，声音、视频、 景象和思绪都是多重的。在相互的传递之中，线索、真实都是不断在被干预的，干预并非单一的来自 观众或者艺术家，体验于观众和艺术家之间。无论是我还是观众都在特殊的现场，以时间、动作为线 索触发不同的现实。我更希望是感受、感知，我所经历的多重现实，现实的碎片、角度和距离，不断 重构的现场可能就是要被不断体验的对记忆、纪录或者偶然想像的再现。 李：你作品中的地域性问题是什么？局限性在哪里？ 郑：鸡西也许是个微不足道的地方，也许是个边远的山区或者是煤炭产地....等等。或许是不值得人 们关注的小环境，但是那里却实实在在的发生过许许多多的故事。鸡西的成长与发展也具有典型的地 域性问题，却是中国大环境之内很容易被忽略的小地方。早在冰川时期生活的猛犸象化石在鸡西就有 发现的纪录，同样几千年以前鸡西就有古人类活动的遗迹。直到进现代，清朝政府抗击沙俄入侵、东 北抗联、解放后的剿匪、土改甚至第二次世界大战的最后一战也是发生在鸡西的虎头要塞，所有种种 都和大环境有着关联。但是她又有她小地域的特点，比如气候、环境这些是地理上的。文革前开发北 大荒，北大荒的主要地点之一就是鸡西的密山，直到现在也仅仅是那些经历过北大荒的人才能真正明 白北大荒意味着什么。这些已经成为历史的东西在今天同样是有效的，那么现在正在发生的以及还没 有发生的呢？当大环境的高速发展让人与人之间的关系变的冷漠，很少有人关注这些东西，而这些东 西恰恰又是我们认识自身最好的镜子。如果有一天我们想起并且需要这些的时候，可能已经无从下手 了。 我母亲是国家企业的退休教师，正是因为是企业的退休教师所以同等条件下比市政退休教师的 退休金差很多，象我母亲一样遭遇的教师有2000多名，他们去市政府上访要求解决问题，然后上省政 府最后又到北京信访局拖拖拉拉直到现在还在为这个问题跑前跑后。我问过母亲，“我们家虽然并 不富裕，但是我们并不缺这个钱，何苦要跟着受罪呢？母亲告诉我说：就是要一口气，一辈子都奉献

给了革命凭什么国家有政策不给执行”在北京上访的时候我一直都陪在这些老师的身边，在信访局的 门口，我亲眼看见一个60多岁的老大爷被警察从人群中揪出来扔出人群，遣送回当地。当时我的眼泪 就在我的眼圈里面打转，如果被扔出去的是我的母亲，我想我会跟那些警察拼命的。象这样的事件本 身就已经脱离了地域的控制，地理上由鸡西－哈尔滨－北京构成了整个事件，人物上由教师－退休教 师－地方官员－中央官员等等....构成。而整个实践的背后就有更多的因素在起作用。这仅仅是区域 事件中的个体事件而已，当有许多事件汇集的时候，相似性也是一个存在在更大范围的问题。在作品 中我并不想凸出鸡西的冲突。对我来说那里是我即熟悉又陌生的环境，更多的是时间在起作用。相对 这个题材范围而言，个人的能量是在是太有限了，尤其是当我把这一地区的历史因素加入进来以后， 面对庞大的信息我个人实在渺小。 可能这就是作品的地域性，完全来自我熟悉的成长环境和逐渐疏离 的感觉，局限性就是如何在作为人子的境遇、上访的实践、历史的时间面前，保持一种冷静观察的可 能性，最大的矛盾也是最大的挑战。 李：媒体对现实的呈现往往导致现实的失真？你怎么看待呈现转换之中，真实的扭曲与变形？ 郑：媒体的呈现是否准确或者说准确的程度往往取决于对于信息的截取面，因为媒体不可能完全的呈 现或者转换现实中的所有现象与问题。媒体与现实的转换过程本身就是自我价值观的辩驳与澄清，面 对诸多选择我们必须学会放弃。所以我们必须先弄清楚我们思考的方向和关注的点，为了目的然后选 择牺牲哪些内容。扭曲与变形本身与社会现实是相对的，真实本身就是我所置疑的，如上面说的，真 实有着完全不同的多重线索和角度，任何角度所引导的都是现实本身，同样也遮蔽了其他的现实存 在，片面和简化的理解现实，是值得怀疑的。因为现实的存在往往比我们所认知的现实要复杂的多。 而媒体所能呈现往往就是这样单一的现实和线索，每个个体都有可能触发一种现实，可能这就是在媒 体干预的情况下，真实的扭曲和变形吧！ 李：你的作品继续的主要因素是什么？必要性是什么？ 郑：这个作品具有很强的社会性，实践本身就具有相当的延续性需求。以社会学的角度通过社会关系 和社会行为来研究局部社会的结构、功能、发生、发展的规律。通过对一个地区的切片式起源、变 迁、经历以及群体结构之间的观察可以深入的探讨构成的关系。 这次的调查包括一系列的研究与纪 录，包括对民族、阶级和性别，如家庭结构，个人与区域社会的关系，包括区域内历史的事件、心里 的变化和经济的变化。 整个过程就是要找到自己从哪里来，到哪里去！必要的是去了解我所熟悉和 不熟悉的成长记忆，也就是记忆中存在的鸡西和现实的鸡西，存在着社会学的角度和个人心理学的解 析。 李：作品创作的阶段中，你的身份是如何转换的？ 郑：我的记忆与经历是分离的，有两部分，一部分在北京，一部分在鸡西。当我回到鸡西的时候一切 变的很自然，因为我自己的相当一部分就是属于那里的。记得2003年的时候，我带着DV在张新矿拍东 西，被当地的保安人员当作记者给扣留了下来，很快的就有警察出来问话.....但是当我说我就是当地 人，我爸是某某某的时候他们很快的就确认了我的身份，并且自言：“想拍啥就拍啥，都是一个矿的 老人”，这个事件让我很感动。当然我也领略了当地的官僚主义作风。不过这也说明角色的进程。进 入与不能进入之间的关系，作为是在当地出生的我，却在北京生活与成长，而观察和反思的感触是动 态的。 李：这个作品会给当地的人文环境、自然环境带来什么影响？ 郑：我自己作为微不足道的个体并不能为他们作什么，我只是在做一个调查，作我自己的工作。我们 生活的环境是一个纷繁复杂的系统，各种各样的生命以各自不同的形式存在着，他们互相竞争又互相 依赖，经过漫长的演化形成了及其准确的各种各样的范围，那么这一切都是在沿着轨迹不断的变化， 这种变化的过程中我仅仅是某个点。这个作品的下一步会涉及到对当地的人文环境，特别是居住环境 进行改造设计，当然我从不奢望会真的能实现这些计划。

Graphic Design 平面设计

Space Design 空间设计

Exhibition Live Scene 展览现场